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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Common misconception
Date: 01 Mar 2000 02:42:19 EST

Ho the list,
I for one, have quite enjoyed the cast iron, dutch oven, thread and will
ponder the information ...
What I'd like to see is a list, or several lists, from different sources,
about some of the common misconceptions of what was worn, used, etc., in the
pre-1840 time period...i.e. "granite ware", handle's on tin cups, Levi's,
etc. In other words, what "NOT" to bring to a rendezvous...
Ymos
Steve




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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Documentation of Dutch Ovens?
Date: 01 Mar 2000 06:05:02 EST

Hello in the camp
What ya got cooking in your Dutch Oven by the fire there. This child is about
starved for some bread. Cause ya see bread is mighty scarce here in the
mountains. Why I have read of fellers going years without even a taste of
bread.
   It has really been interesting and I have learned a lot. Thanks north
woods, Long Walker and Walt for your input and efforts we have all gain by
it. I haven't put my two cents in cause I wanted to sit back and see what
came out of this. Some mighty fine research I'd say. You've found cast iron
pots in the forts out west which I had always thought, but now I know. Miller
with his paintings put a caldron in the camp of Stewart along with all the
other goodies he brought out west with him in his wagons. And Lewis and Clark
had them, along with a metal boat frame, air rifle, Leusfers (matches) why
they even took a folding writing desk all the way to the to the Pacific. But
all this still does not put it in the hands of the average trapper. At some
time common sense has to come in to research. What does a Dutch Oven have
over a tin or copper pot? You can bake in it, what is a trapper going to bake
a cake. Flour was not that available and meat was ether boiled or roasted so
why cast iron.  When I pack the lighter the better.

                                                          see ya on the trail
                                                            Crazy  Cyot




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From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Documentation of Dutch Ovens?
Date: 01 Mar 2000 07:12:04 -0700

I too, loved the emails (to a certain point) and discussion on dutch ovens and
the connnecting threads. But you can start a whole new discussion (arguement)
when you say flour wasn't availible on the frontier. For it seems the same places
which had cast iron, forts and companies of men in the west, also had flour.
Chardons journals, just to note one, notes every time he openned a barrel of
flour. It seems to me, that yes, flour didn't make it as a regular travel item
(just too hard to keep), it was found in the forts. Not a every day item, but
bread was served on special occasions and alot tortillas (in the southwest) were
ate and made. There will always be differences with what people carried and used
on a everyday basis. But the more I laearn, the more I say, we know so little.
Jacob Fowler carried a slab of bacon for almost six months in his packs and
brought it out for a treat, one day. You have already discussed the L & C metal
frame (which I think of as a canoe), but no one has mentioned swords, quilts (all
found in the western frontier) and a thousand other things which if we were to
mention, everyone would say, "that is just the exception".  I afraid that it
really takes study and a good mind to find out what the real west was like.
                                                            mike.

[e-mail] wrote:

> Hello in the camp
> What ya got cooking in your Dutch Oven by the fire there. This child is about
> starved for some bread. Cause ya see bread is mighty scarce here in the
> mountains. Why I have read of fellers going years without even a taste of
> bread.
>    It has really been interesting and I have learned a lot. Thanks north
> woods, Long Walker and Walt for your input and efforts we have all gain by
> it. I haven't put my two cents in cause I wanted to sit back and see what
> came out of this. Some mighty fine research I'd say. You've found cast iron
> pots in the forts out west which I had always thought, but now I know. Miller
> with his paintings put a caldron in the camp of Stewart along with all the
> other goodies he brought out west with him in his wagons. And Lewis and Clark
> had them, along with a metal boat frame, air rifle, Leusfers (matches) why
> they even took a folding writing desk all the way to the to the Pacific. But
> all this still does not put it in the hands of the average trapper. At some
> time common sense has to come in to research. What does a Dutch Oven have
> over a tin or copper pot? You can bake in it, what is a trapper going to bake
> a cake. Flour was not that available and meat was ether boiled or roasted so
> why cast iron.  When I pack the lighter the better.
>
>                                                           see ya on the trail
>                                                             Crazy  Cyot
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Documentation of Dutch Ovens?
Date: 01 Mar 2000 09:50:43 EST

"I'm afraid it really takes study and a good mind to find out what the real
west was like."  Mike Moore

Truer words can't be found, Mike.

Laura Glise
[e-mail]

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From: "Crooked Hand" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Rifles
Date: 01 Mar 2000 10:54:32 -0500

Well Jerry.. you struk a chord here.. I know little about Henry's or
Derringer.. but I do know htat you can find excellent work at NArragansette
Armes in Indianapolis and they have a beautiful Southern Rifle.. several
periods of course.. and they once made a Huddleston Mountain Rifle (I own
one) that is just a "Baaaabe".  Give Phil Edwards a call and tell him I sent
you.. he LOVES to talk and he is good friend..

He can be reached at  [e-mail]  or [phone]
Hope this helps..
CrookedHand

Mark Toigo/Crooked Hand/Wethlee-Enke`
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/8699
http://members.xoom.com/crookedhand/gallery.htm

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 11:19 PM


> Hallo the list. Seeking custom rifle makers who can build a fairly
accurate
> rifle of the 1810-1835 period along the lines of J. Henrys, Derringer, or
> large cal. (i.e. .54 or .58) heavy stocked southern style long rifle? Hoe
> about Tennessee Mountain Rifles?
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: "Crooked Hand" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Common misconception
Date: 01 Mar 2000 10:57:17 -0500

me tooo!  although.. my grandmama had a cast iron pot her people said was in
their family in 1760.. and she still used it in 1955... so I think..maybe
LOTS of old things carried over into newer dates.. dontcha think?
CrookedHand
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 2:42 AM


> Ho the list,
> I for one, have quite enjoyed the cast iron, dutch oven, thread and will
> ponder the information ...
> What I'd like to see is a list, or several lists, from different sources,
> about some of the common misconceptions of what was worn, used, etc., in
the
> pre-1840 time period...i.e. "granite ware", handle's on tin cups, Levi's,
> etc. In other words, what "NOT" to bring to a rendezvous...
> Ymos
> Steve
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Documentation of Dutch Ovens?
Date: 01 Mar 2000 09:57:43 -0600


-----Original Message-----


> Right now, I've waded through almost fifty.  Found out all kinds of neat
>stuff that will further document my outfit.   BUT I AIN'T FOUND NO FLAT
>BOTTOMED, THREE-LEGGED, CAST IRON DUTCH OVEN!!!!  Ahem, sorry about
>that...

Apparently your not looking in the rite places. A good start would be the
book I quoted from. It gives a dozen or so first hand references to the use
of Dutch ovens beggining with the Lewis and Clark journey. It also tells
where a person can go to today and see  how these cooking implements were
used in the settings they had existed in the past, one of which is Bents Old
Fort National Historic Site La Junta, CO.

northwoods



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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Common misconception
Date: 01 Mar 2000 09:37:35 -0800

Well, then, you might like to do some research on blue willow ware china in
the fur trade. A good place to start would be HBCs Northwest activities.
-----Original Message-----


>Ho the list,
>I for one, have quite enjoyed the cast iron, dutch oven, thread and will
>ponder the information ...
>What I'd like to see is a list, or several lists, from different sources,
>about some of the common misconceptions of what was worn, used, etc., in
the
>pre-1840 time period...i.e. "granite ware", handle's on tin cups, Levi's,
>etc. In other words, what "NOT" to bring to a rendezvous...
>Ymos
>Steve
>
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Documentation of Dutch Ovens?
Date: 01 Mar 2000 09:40:05 -0800

Well then there now. Just what was the often mentioned "Bannack" made of?
-----Original Message-----


>I too, loved the emails (to a certain point) and discussion on dutch ovens
and
>the connnecting threads. But you can start a whole new discussion
(arguement)
>when you say flour wasn't availible on the frontier. For it seems the same
places
>which had cast iron, forts and companies of men in the west, also had
flour.
>Chardons journals, just to note one, notes every time he openned a barrel
of
>flour. It seems to me, that yes, flour didn't make it as a regular travel
item
>(just too hard to keep), it was found in the forts. Not a every day item,
but
>bread was served on special occasions and alot tortillas (in the southwest)
were
>ate and made. There will always be differences with what people carried and
used
>on a everyday basis. But the more I laearn, the more I say, we know so
little.
>Jacob Fowler carried a slab of bacon for almost six months in his packs and
>brought it out for a treat, one day. You have already discussed the L & C
metal
>frame (which I think of as a canoe), but no one has mentioned swords,
quilts (all
>found in the western frontier) and a thousand other things which if we were
to
>mention, everyone would say, "that is just the exception".  I afraid that
it
>really takes study and a good mind to find out what the real west was like.
>                                                            mike.
>
>[e-mail] wrote:
>
>> Hello in the camp
>> What ya got cooking in your Dutch Oven by the fire there. This child is
about
>> starved for some bread. Cause ya see bread is mighty scarce here in the
>> mountains. Why I have read of fellers going years without even a taste of
>> bread.
>>    It has really been interesting and I have learned a lot. Thanks north
>> woods, Long Walker and Walt for your input and efforts we have all gain
by
>> it. I haven't put my two cents in cause I wanted to sit back and see what
>> came out of this. Some mighty fine research I'd say. You've found cast
iron
>> pots in the forts out west which I had always thought, but now I know.
Miller
>> with his paintings put a caldron in the camp of Stewart along with all
the
>> other goodies he brought out west with him in his wagons. And Lewis and
Clark
>> had them, along with a metal boat frame, air rifle, Leusfers (matches)
why
>> they even took a folding writing desk all the way to the to the Pacific.
But
>> all this still does not put it in the hands of the average trapper. At
some
>> time common sense has to come in to research. What does a Dutch Oven have
>> over a tin or copper pot? You can bake in it, what is a trapper going to
bake
>> a cake. Flour was not that available and meat was ether boiled or roasted
so
>> why cast iron.  When I pack the lighter the better.
>>
>>                                                           see ya on the
trail
>>                                                             Crazy  Cyot
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Common misconception
Date: 01 Mar 2000 12:11:06 -0600

I think most things that are accepted at most rendezvous are not too
authentic or were very uncommon:

-  fur hats (this list has already addressed this some);
-  bushy beards (Here we go again. Note the adjective 'bushy' this time.)
-  Any kind of tent except wedge, teepee, and maybe wall tents (this has
been discussed
    some before);
-  Throwing knives;
-  Eye glasses
-  Canteens
-  Water kegs
-  wooden tables,
-  chairs,
-  granite ware,
-  wooden boxes,
-  iron crossbar fire irons and gadgets associated with them,
-  grills
-  wooden bowls?
-  short round ball starters (I have always wondered about these)
-  lanterns
-  seed beads

And this list does not get into almost anything else that is accepted if it
is covered up.

Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner

>What I'd like to see is a list, or several lists, from different sources,
about some of the common
> misconceptions of what was worn, used, etc., in the pre-1840 time
period...i.e. "granite ware",
> handle's on tin cups, Levi's, etc. In other words, what "NOT" to bring to
a rendezvous...



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From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Documentation of Dutch Ovens?
Date: 01 Mar 2000 11:26:41 -0800

Recent posts have finally shed some real light on the subject, after all
the heat. So to recap, our documentation on Dutch ovens is:

Excavated: 1 (Bent's Fort)
Mentioned in journal: 1 (L&C)
Hypothetical (i.e. documented as used in nearby place or time, but not
directly tied to fur trade): 2

Please let me know if there have been posts (or pots!) I've missed.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

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From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Common misconception
Date: 01 Mar 2000 11:27:02 -0800

I have good documentation for both flour, and blue willow ware in the
Canadian fur trade, 1774-1821. If you want more details, just ask. Oats
were about as common as flour, by the way, and they're a traditional
ingredient in Scottish bannock. I've never seen cornmeal. Swords are
surprisingly common--I've got about a half-dozen documented, throughout
the period.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

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From: "Poorboy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Common misconception
Date: 01 Mar 2000 11:11:10 -0800

Klahowya Angela,
Yes, I would be very interested in further information in each of the topics
you mentioned.  Please share with the rest of us.
Klahowya,
PoorBoy



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Documentation of Dutch Ovens?
Date: 01 Mar 2000 14:06:01 EST

Angela,

How about Miller's sketch/painting.... still looks like one to me.

Ymos.
Steve

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Common misconception
Date: 01 Mar 2000 14:08:46 EST


In a message dated 3/1/00 10:05:47 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< I think most things that are accepted at most rendezvous are not too

authentic or were very uncommon:

 >>

I'd like to hear more about the eye glasses and wooden boxes.....anyone?
Ymos,
Steve

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From: "jerry strobel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Mountain Rifles
Date: 01 Mar 2000 11:20:47 PST

I finally dug up out of my cache, my book of buckskinning I, Charles
Hanson's The Hawken Rifle; its place in history, and my back issues of
Muzzleloader magazine. I have more questions then answers again. 1)Even
though there were many rifles on the borderlands during the 1810-1835 era
such as Lancasters, Southern-style rifles, and trade guns from J. Henry,
Derringer, Leman. What would Jack Garner's Tennessee Mountain Rifle
aproxsimilate? 2) Is there anyone replicating J. Henry's Lancaster
(American) pattern rifle of the 1820s? 3)Is there anyone replicating
Deringer's lancaster styled trade rifle of the 1820s? 4)Has anyone heard of
The Powder Keg Rifle Works in Twin Falls, Idaho? they are shown to be
offering on their web page a 1815 S. Hawken which seems to replicate the
pre-1825 rifle fig. 2a on page 9 of Hanson's book on Hawkens. I don't know
if their site is still current but that could be a Hawken that showed up at
the first of Ashley's rendezvous. All replies welcome to my inquiries.
Thanks for pointin' the sign out to this pilgrim. Y.M.O.S. Jerry "Jake"
Strobel.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Bent's Fort dutch ovens (a curator's perspective)
Date: 01 Mar 2000 14:59:10 -0500


I am familiar with some of the archeological and historical work done by
the National Park Service folks at Bent's, and I've seen the cast iron
pieces in their storage.   A friend of mine is the Curator at Bent's Old
Fort.  I called her two days ago and our hour-long conversation revealed
some interesting info.  Below I'll explain what I learned.

First, a little background.  For those of you who are familiar with all
this, forgive me.

Historical archaeology uses Material Culture (the study of historical
artifacts within the context of their historical time and place) to help
identify the function and time period of artifacts based on comparative
analysis and primary source documentation.  The term material culture is
also used as a collective noun to describe one or several historical
artifacts, as in "the pot pieces are examples of Bent's Old Fort material
culture."

Archeology is what we in the museum profession call a comparative science.
That means the items recovered from a site can be identified by comparing
them to other associated items known to be from the same period or if the
items are recovered from the same subsurface layer.  Archeological sites
are excavated in a system of layers, where each succeeding layer
corresponds to a different period of time. Wells also are excavated in
layers.  For example, when buildings at the Mormon settlement of Nauvoo, IL
were excavated, historians and archeologists were able to determine the age
of several artifacts based on their proximity to other things known to be
from the Mormon period, and conclude, through other primary documentary
evidence (letters, receipts, household inventories) that the items were
indeed dumped into the well during the Mormon evacuation of Nauvoo.  As
people packed to leave, a lot of things got thrown down the wells.

Oftentimes, archeologists find items clustered with other items that are
positively identified as used during a certain period (again usually at a
particular subsurface level.) that help corroberate evidence that the items
are from a particular period, or even identified with a particular person.

The report, by the way, was written by NPS archeologist Jackson "Smokey"
Moore, who is now retired and living in Georgia.  Moore conducted the field
investigation and excavation of 1962-66.

Now, a few things we do know.  The well was only used during the BSV
period.  In other words, no one used the well to draw water after 1849.  It
was backfilled, probably by Bent before he abandoned the place.  Why?  He
was violently opposed to handing it over to the Army, and he wanted to make
it as unusuable as possible, which is also why he destroyed much of the
fort.  The well was later sealed with a cap of earth and rock (as described
in the report as an inverted bell).  It is believed that the capping
occurred during the stagecoach period (after 1860), probably construction
debris from rebuilding of the fort as a stage stop.  Furthermore, there is
an area of scorched earth at (or just below) the bottom of the cap,
suggesting that early in the stage coach period some debris (scorched
adobe?) from the ca. 1849 fire was dumped into the well on top of the BSV
backfill but bewfore the cap debris was dumped in.  Anyway, to continue,
there were at least 22 layers of strata in the well backfill below the
rocky cap.  There were pieces of porcelain found within layer 22, which is
a BSV layer in the well backfill, and they are positively from BSV.  The
dutch oven fragments (and we know they were dutch ovens from the
configurations and descriptions in the report) found on the site were found
at subsurface levels within the well.  The question is whether they were
found above the 1860 cap or below.

BTW, the BSV company ledgers were never found.  The only primary
documentation scholars have are ledgers of companies BSV dealt with, such
as Chouteau and Pratte, etc.  BSV ledgers would solve a lot of mysteries,
but no one has ever located them.

Meanwhile, back at the well, which is a key to the mystery, the NPS curator
is planning to commission a study all of the field notes and correlate
precisely what was found where.  If the dutch oven fragments were found
below the rocky cap, placing them within the BSV period of occupation, the
logical conclusion would be that dutch oven fragments (therefore dutch
ovens) are consistent with the Fur Trade era (which as we all know,
extended beyond 1840, but that's a different lecture).

Another interesting tidbit of information:  The only existing remnant of
the fort structure in public view is the flagstone floor directly in front
of the hearth in the kitchen.  Those stones have never been moved since
they were laid in 1833, (they were uncovered during the 1963-66 excavation)
and they still serve their original purpose.  So next time you see the
kitchen think of Charlotte Green, the fort's African-American cook,
standing over those very stones preparing a delicious beavertail stew (a
fort favorite).

Buena Suerte
HBC

****************************************
Henry B. Crawford    Box 43191
Curator of History    Museum of Texas Tech University
[e-mail]    Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
806/742-2442     FAX [phone]
              Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because It's There  ******



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From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Mountain Rifles
Date: 01 Mar 2000 14:48:52 -0700

Jerry,
    Bob Lienemann [phone] makes a very good J. Henry. I have at least
one friend who use a Henry (he converted it to percussion) and works/ looks
great. very authenic.
                                                                        mike.

jerry strobel wrote:

> I finally dug up out of my cache, my book of buckskinning I, Charles
> Hanson's The Hawken Rifle; its place in history, and my back issues of
> Muzzleloader magazine. I have more questions then answers again. 1)Even
> though there were many rifles on the borderlands during the 1810-1835 era
> such as Lancasters, Southern-style rifles, and trade guns from J. Henry,
> Derringer, Leman. What would Jack Garner's Tennessee Mountain Rifle
> aproxsimilate? 2) Is there anyone replicating J. Henry's Lancaster
> (American) pattern rifle of the 1820s? 3)Is there anyone replicating
> Deringer's lancaster styled trade rifle of the 1820s? 4)Has anyone heard of
> The Powder Keg Rifle Works in Twin Falls, Idaho? they are shown to be
> offering on their web page a 1815 S. Hawken which seems to replicate the
> pre-1825 rifle fig. 2a on page 9 of Hanson's book on Hawkens. I don't know
> if their site is still current but that could be a Hawken that showed up at
> the first of Ashley's rendezvous. All replies welcome to my inquiries.
> Thanks for pointin' the sign out to this pilgrim. Y.M.O.S. Jerry "Jake"
> Strobel.
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Mountain Rifles
Date: 01 Mar 2000 16:55:38 -0500

If my mind isn't shot, Bob is the one that built Mrs. Jager....Right Buck??
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 4:48 PM


> Jerry,
>     Bob Lienemann [phone] makes a very good J. Henry. I have at
least
> one friend who use a Henry (he converted it to percussion) and works/
looks
> great. very authenic.
>
mike.
>



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Documentation of Dutch Ovens?
Date: 01 Mar 2000 17:38:19 EST

Hello in the camp
 First off I did not say Flour was not available. I said it was not THAT
available. For the average trapper only once a year at rendezvous and then at
mountain prices or at a forts and still at mountain prices. Lets look at what
the trappers had to say in there journals about bread and flour. In Journal
of a Trapper page 39 Osborne Russell writes. They killed plenty of Bulls but
they were so poor that their meat was perfectly blue yet this was their only
article of food as bread or vegetables were out of the question in the Rocky
Mountains except a few kinds of roots of spontaneous growth which the Indians
dig and prepare for food.
   The Rocky Mountain Journals of William Marshall Anderson page 265 after
the rendezvous of 1839 Bridger set out for the states with the returning
caravan, his first visit home in seventeen years. (During all this time, as
he later commented, he had not once tasted bread.) William Marshall Anderson
writes in his diary May 24, 1834, ( page 100) No bread, and no more till my
return to civilization. This entry was made on the return trip he was
traveling with Wyeth and Sublette. Sublette was on his way to build Fort
William.
   Forty Years a Fur Trader on the Upper Missouri (the personal narrative of
Charles Larpenteur) page 22 on there way to the Green River he makes this
statement. My comrades had told me that we should now get a sickness called
by them le mal de vach; it is a dysentery caused by eating too much fat meat
alone, and some are known to have died of it. (it appears they had no bread)
page 28-29 Mr. Campbell sent for me one morning. On entering his tent I was
presented with a good cup of coffee and a large sized biscuit; this was a
great treat, for I believe that it was the first coffee I drunk since I left
Lexington. page 43 In the evening a great feast was given us by Mr. Campbell.
It consisted of half a pint of Flour to each man, one cup of coffee, one of
sugar, and one of molasses, to four men. Out of this a  becoming feast was
made, consisting of thick pancakes, the batter containing no other ingredient
than pure Missouri water, greased with buffalo tallow; but as I had nothing
of the kind for upward of six months, I thought I had never tasted anything
so good in my life. page 51 He is working as a clerk for the American Fur
Company at Fort William when  he states I had saved over$200, thanks to not
indulging too much in pancake parties. Coffee being $1 a pint, sugar $1, and
Flour 25 cents, many of my poor comrades came out in debt.
There was no flour brought out to the rendezvous in 1825. At the 1826
rendezvous this is a partial price list of what things sold for
Gunpowder-$1.50 per pound, Lead-$1.00 per LB, Shot-$1.25 per LB, Flour-$1.00
per LB, Sugar-$1.00 per LB coffee-$1.25 per lb.
So a trapper is going to pack around a dutch oven for this. What ever makes
your stick float I guess.              See ya on the trail
                                                   Crazy Cyot

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From: "Bill Jackson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Muzzleblasts
Date: 01 Mar 2000 23:54:21 GMT


Mr. Cunningham.
It was good to finaly see a picture of a face on this list. I saw a article
about you in the March issue of Muzzleblasts.
MadJack


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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleblasts
Date: 01 Mar 2000 17:14:14 -0800

Well, thank you! I haven't seen it. Shall have to get on them about where my
copy is. Any idea who wrote the article? I know nothing about it.
Thanks again,
Bill C
-----Original Message-----


>
>Mr. Cunningham.
>It was good to finaly see a picture of a face on this list. I saw a article
>about you in the March issue of Muzzleblasts.
>MadJack
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
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From: "Bill Jackson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleblasts
Date: 02 Mar 2000 00:15:30 GMT

Yes, Susan Jennys
Concerns Book Review: Lighting Grandma's Fire
MadJack


>From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleblasts
>Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 17:14:14 -0800
>
>Well, thank you! I haven't seen it. Shall have to get on them about where
>my
>copy is. Any idea who wrote the article? I know nothing about it.
>Thanks again,
>Bill C
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Jackson <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 3:56 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Muzzleblasts
>
>
> >
> >Mr. Cunningham.
> >It was good to finaly see a picture of a face on this list. I saw a
>article
> >about you in the March issue of Muzzleblasts.
> >MadJack
> >
> >
> >______________________________________________________
> >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>----------------------
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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Documentation of Dutch Ovens?
Date: 01 Mar 2000 16:45:12 -0800

Steve,

Are you referring to the sketch that was posted a few days back? To my eye,
that is a cast iron pot or cauldron or what ever but not a modern Dutch
Oven. I don't think there is any argument that such rounded sided cast iron
pots were used to some small degree but what is questioned is whether the
modern, straight sided, shallow, flat bottomed, coals holding rimmed lidded,
cast iron "Dutch Oven" we see today was used.

For my money, just because an article of yesteryear was referred to as a
"Dutch Oven" is not proof that what we call a "DC" today is the same animal.
Just my thoughts on this interesting but sofar inconclusive debate. I
remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 11:06 AM


> Angela,
>
> How about Miller's sketch/painting.... still looks like one to me.
>
> Ymos.
> Steve
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Common misconception
Date: 01 Mar 2000 16:54:46 -0800

Steve,

I'm not sure why the eye glasses were included in the list. I would imagine
that not too many young men that went to the mountains needed glasses but
they surely were available. More importantly, in this age that is one thing
that I for one need to enjoy the experience and though I try to come up with
acceptable styles of frames, mine and other's eye wear is not something I
think anyone has a gripe about.

It would seem that most goods going to the mountains would have been packed
in barrels or packs but whether or not wooden boxes actually went, they are
an item that are accepted in most venues. There has to be some way of
hauling all the stuff that is taken to modern Rendezvous that really isn't
appropriate. They surely were used in boat travel more likely in the form of
trunks or chests, but probably not used by every day trappers. Again, just
my thoughts. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 11:08 AM


>
> In a message dated 3/1/00 10:05:47 AM, [e-mail] writes:
>
> << I think most things that are accepted at most rendezvous are not too
>
> authentic or were very uncommon:
>
>  >>
>
> I'd like to hear more about the eye glasses and wooden boxes.....anyone?
> Ymos,
> Steve
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Documentation of Dutch Ovens?
Date: 01 Mar 2000 18:55:40 -0600

WAshtathy-
At 09:57 AM 3/1/00 -0600, you wrote:
>
>> Right now, I've waded through almost fifty.  Found out all kinds of neat
>>stuff that will further document my outfit.   BUT I AIN'T FOUND NO FLAT
>>BOTTOMED, THREE-LEGGED, CAST IRON DUTCH OVEN!!!!  Ahem, sorry about
>>that...
>
>Apparently your not looking in the rite places. A good start would be the
>book I quoted from.
    What, I should look in a church?
    I've had a copy of the book on order since this thread started, but wasn't
going to recommend it until I had seen it.  If the remainder of the book is
no more accurate than what you paraphrased, I think I am likely to be
disappointed.  Despite folklore to the contrary, Darby did not introduce
the casting technique he patented-then as now it was who you know, not what
you know.
LongWalker c. du B.



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From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Common misconception
Date: 01 Mar 2000 18:57:07 -0600

Washtahay-
At 12:11 PM 3/1/00 -0600, you wrote:
>I think most things that are accepted at most rendezvous are not too
>authentic or were very uncommon:
>-  Canteens
>-  Water kegs
    There are a number of references to canteens being sold to both natives
and whites.  Also, there was a pretty fair demand for powder
kegs-especially the small ones-for use as canteens.

>-  granite ware,
    Don't know if it ever made it to rendezvous, but pattern pieces exist from
when the French let m8ilitary contracts during the Napoleonic era.

>-  wooden boxes,
    `Trunks were a common trade item, both as trunk-like "nesting boxes" and
as a secondary usage of some shipping containers (one example being the tea
caddy).

>-  seed beads
    Define "seed beads"-by size-and most likely some have been recovered
somewhere within any half-century.
LongWalker c. du B.



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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleblasts
Date: 01 Mar 2000 19:04:18 -0800

Thank you, MadJack.
-----Original Message-----


>Yes, Susan Jennys
>Concerns Book Review: Lighting Grandma's Fire
>MadJack
>
>
>>From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
>>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>>To: <[e-mail]>
>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleblasts
>>Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 17:14:14 -0800
>>
>>Well, thank you! I haven't seen it. Shall have to get on them about where
>>my
>>copy is. Any idea who wrote the article? I know nothing about it.
>>Thanks again,
>>Bill C
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Bill Jackson <[e-mail]>
>>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>>Date: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 3:56 PM
>>Subject: MtMan-List: Muzzleblasts
>>
>>
>> >
>> >Mr. Cunningham.
>> >It was good to finaly see a picture of a face on this list. I saw a
>>article
>> >about you in the March issue of Muzzleblasts.
>> >MadJack
>> >
>> >
>> >______________________________________________________
>> >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>> >
>> >
>> >----------------------
>> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: in need of fur prices, kids school  project
Date: 01 Mar 2000 20:52:57 EST

 Hello list,
             In need of help.   Wife signed me up at my kid's school for
living
History day (Missouri).   Need to know the prices for beaver and other furs
from 1800-1840 when sold at Western Rendezvous compared to prices
received in St. Louis.    Would like prices to compare between both places.

Thank you.

rick
[e-mail]

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From: "Poorboy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Common misconception
Date: 01 Mar 2000 18:46:02 -0800


> There are a number of references to canteens being sold to both natives
>and whites.  Also, there was a pretty fair demand for powder
>kegs-especially the small ones-for use as canteens.

As I have spent a considerable amount of time over the last few weeks ready
the archives from this site ( very informative, and educational) I am not
exactly sure if this information is from a current thread or an archived
one.  My question... there has been some discussion that there was a decided
lack of need for canteens during the RMFT as natural sources were clean and
abundant.  In cases where it was known that this would not be the case
 like crossing the desert, animal bladders and skins are specifically
mentioned.  As it is also a given that canteens are necessary for the modern
jaunters and reenactors I would be most interested in any supporting
documentation to support the above quoted statement.  Thank you in advance
for your time and consideration.  I am also interested in further
information on the boxes/trunks issue.
Klahowya PoorBoy
[e-mail]



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Turkey Calls
Date: 01 Mar 2000 21:34:55 -0500

call shipped today---
hawk---

On Fri, 18 Feb 2000 19:55:21 EST [e-mail] writes:
>
> In a message dated 2/18/00 8:49:18 AM, [e-mail] writes:
>
> <<    "HAWK"
> Michael Pierce
> 854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
>
> P >>
>
> Hey Hawk....you got any of them ole Turkey Calls around that ya
> make? I never
> did get the one you were gonna send a couple years back... and I'd
> be glad to
> pay ya what you think is fair.
> Ymos,
> Steve Cushing
> 22324 NE Finn Hill Rd
> Brush Prairie, WA 98606
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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From: "Poorboy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Period correctness questions
Date: 01 Mar 2000 19:04:43 -0800

As I explained in a previous post I have spent considerable time and am
still researching all of the archived material from this list, however I
have several questions that I have been unable to answer as of yet.  If I
have overlooked previously posted information on these topics please excuse
my clumsiness.
1.  A recent posting indicated that fur hats were probably not correct for
pre-1840 RMFT rendezvous.  And a respondent indicated that this had been a
topic of discussion before.  I have been unable to locate that discussion.
It has always been my understanding having been brought up by an AMM member
that beaver fur was money and would only be used for something else in an
emergency.  However, since we accept that the mountaineers adopted Indian
dress (whether of need or desire is another issue)  and Indians used the
natural furs available for head coverings, clothing, household utensils etc.
Isn't it a little difficult to make the statement that the Rocky Mountain
trappers and traders did not utilize fur head coverings.....
2.  Eye glasses were definitely available in the settlements, and although I
will accept they may not have been common in the mountains, it is a reach to
assume that no one wore a pair west, nor took a spare pair or two, and would
have been so clumsy as to have lost or destroyed all of them.  I will admit
that a person needing glasses who either could not get them, or having lost
possession of them would soon become victim to either enemies of animals due
to lack of accuracy in shooting or not seeing there enemies approach.  I
also believe that a person of only slight vision problems would attach
himself to a group so as to compensate for this inadequacy.
3.  As there is a large contingent within the ranks that support the
southwest influence within the RMFT I ask the following question.  It was
common practice to smoke cigarettes rolled in corn husks in the southwest.
Can anyone provide me with information concerning the preparation and use of
the husk material, ie.. how to keep it rolled up once you have successfully
rolled a cigarette.  size of cigarettes, and appropriateness to the RMFT
era.
Thank you in advance for you time and knowledge.  I could not read in a
lifetime enough books to compile the gathered and documented knowledge of
this lists members.



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Documentation of Dutch Ovens?
Date: 01 Mar 2000 22:04:01 EST


In a message dated 3/1/00 4:41:50 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Are you referring to the sketch that was posted a few days back? To my eye,

that is a cast iron pot or cauldron or what ever but not a modern Dutch

Oven.  >>

Yeah Capt.... but I was thinking a guy could put coals over the top flat
cover, and bake in it too..... also appears to be of cast iron to me.  I
quite agree... the "Lodge" type dutch oven aint right for what we're doing...

Ymos,
Steve

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Common misconception
Date: 01 Mar 2000 22:12:26 EST


In a message dated 3/1/00 4:50:33 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< It would seem that most goods going to the mountains would have been packed

in barrels or packs but whether or not wooden boxes actually went, they are

an item that are accepted in most venues.  >>

I've been over to Fort Vancouver and got the dimensions off the wooden
"Cassettes" they have over there. Have made a few and they fit good in a
canoe. I agree though...not the easiest to pack on a hoss....
Ymos,
Steve

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Turkey Calls
Date: 01 Mar 2000 22:20:03 EST

<<<<<call shipped today---
hawk--->>>

Hawk.....you are the Man.... Planning a sashay in NE Washington when the
season opens and will give you a report on how maney of them varmits I scared
away! Gotta get close with a 20ga Fusil...
Ymos,
Steve

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Snow shoe bindings
Date: 01 Mar 2000 22:33:52 EST

Hallo Capt!
Glad you folks made it back in one piece and enjoyed yerselfs down south.
I just got a pretty good pair of snow shoes from Cabellas, the Huron model,
and for $90, a pretty good buy. When you come over to Enumclaw next week
could you bring your bindings so I can see how to make mine. I've a pretty
good idea of how to make em but need to see how wide across the toe, and how
you tie them.
Also would like to see your winter snow moccasins and inner linings....air em
out if ya would.....<G>
I'll be there early Saturday morning till I run outta money....
Ymos,
Steve

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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Documentation of Dutch Ovens?
Date: 01 Mar 2000 22:16:38 -0600


-----Original Message-----

> What, I should look in a church?

It wouldn't hurt. you'll never do accurate research by only looking for
infromation to back up your preconcieved notions. It took me all of 5
minutes with a web search to locate this book title which gave more
information than this thread had been working with over a few day period.

> I've had a copy of the book on order since this thread started, but wasn't
>going to recommend it until I had seen it.  If the remainder of the book is
>no more accurate than what you paraphrased, I think I am likely to be
>disappointed.

I think your likely to be disappointed. Good thing it isn't my prerogative
to keep you from being disappointed.

northwoods


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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Documentation of Dutch Ovens?
Date: 01 Mar 2000 20:18:39 -0800

Steve,

Your right that one could "bake" in such a vessel by putting coals on the
lid. My buddy Tom, down in Albany bought a bunch of those pots a couple
years back to peddle and so I have had a close look at them. (they really
haven't changed much in a couple hundred years) But that isn't what they
were designed to do. Whether it would be proper to call them "Dutch Ovens"
or not is not the question. Whether they could be used for "baking" or not
is not the question.

The question is, as you point out, did the "Dutch oven" as we know it go
west with the RMFTrapper and was it a commonly used item if it did? So far I
haven't seen any proof that this was the case. I think we are in agreement
on this one. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 7:04 PM


>
> In a message dated 3/1/00 4:41:50 PM, [e-mail] writes:
>
> << Are you referring to the sketch that was posted a few days back? To my
eye,
>
> that is a cast iron pot or cauldron or what ever but not a modern Dutch
>
> Oven.  >>
>
> Yeah Capt.... but I was thinking a guy could put coals over the top flat
> cover, and bake in it too..... also appears to be of cast iron to me.  I
> quite agree... the "Lodge" type dutch oven aint right for what we're
doing...
>
> Ymos,
> Steve
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Common misconception
Date: 01 Mar 2000 20:23:35 -0800

Steve,

Most if not all the goods arriving at Ft. Vancouver would have come by ship
around the Horn or by boat down the Columbia. I agree that quit a bit of the
goods when brought by canoe or boat would have been in chests as you found.
Cassettes are quit acceptable and appropriate in the proper context. I
remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

PS. you missed another bang up snow shoe this past weekend over by CleEllum.
There is a canoe trip into Bonnie Lake on March 24/26.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 7:12 PM


>
> In a message dated 3/1/00 4:50:33 PM, [e-mail] writes:
>
> << It would seem that most goods going to the mountains would have been
packed
>
> in barrels or packs but whether or not wooden boxes actually went, they
are
>
> an item that are accepted in most venues.  >>
>
> I've been over to Fort Vancouver and got the dimensions off the wooden
> "Cassettes" they have over there. Have made a few and they fit good in a
> canoe. I agree though...not the easiest to pack on a hoss....
> Ymos,
> Steve
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Documentation of Dutch Ovens?
Date: 01 Mar 2000 23:08:19 -0600

Washtahay-
At 10:16 PM 3/1/00 -0600, you wrote:
>> What, I should look in a church?
>
>It wouldn't hurt. you'll never do accurate research by only looking for
>infromation to back up your preconcieved notions.
    My "preconceived notions" consist of the belief that there may be a
factual answer somewhere.  The presence or absence of cast iron implements
in the rocky mountains fur trade would show a great deal about the
availablilty of various goods, shipping methods, business practices,
interconnections of businesses, etc.  I find the problem interesting, so
I've started researching it.

>It took me all of 5
>minutes with a web search to locate this book title which gave more
>information than this thread had been working with over a few day period.
    If the information is inaccurate, it is of negative value-not only does it
not contribute to finding a solution, it takes us farther away from an
answer.  If it meets your idea of acceptable documentation, great-but don't
be upset when people won't accept the inaccuracies to spare your feelings.
LongWalker c. du B.


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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Turkey Calls
Date: 01 Mar 2000 20:51:05 -0800

Steve,

Got one of Hawk's calls waiting for me at the show through Chip Cormas.
Crawdad and me plan on chasing them pesky Turks this spring too. We can talk
at the show. Should be there all day Sat. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 7:20 PM


> <<<<<call shipped today---
> hawk--->>>
>
> Hawk.....you are the Man.... Planning a sashay in NE Washington when the
> season opens and will give you a report on how maney of them varmits I
scared
> away! Gotta get close with a 20ga Fusil...
> Ymos,
> Steve
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Re: Documentation of Dutch Ovens?]
Date: 02 Mar 2000 06:45:45 EST

Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]> wrote:
Recent posts have finally shed some real light on the subject, after all =

the heat. So to recap, our documentation on Dutch ovens is:

Excavated: 1 (Bent's Fort)
Mentioned in journal: 1 (L&C)
Hypothetical (i.e. documented as used in nearby place or time, but not =

directly tied to fur trade): 2 =


Please let me know if there have been posts (or pots!) I've missed.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
_______________________________________________

Angela,

We have about the same tally on this subject, hell of alot =

e-mails for the amount of actual documented iron ware found, =

good point.

Thanks
Concho.

____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm=
ail.netscape.com.

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From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: documentation for both flour, and blue willow ware.
Date: 02 Mar 2000 03:50:59 -0800

I have good documentation for both flour, and blue willow ware in the
Canadian fur trade, 1774-1821. If you want more details, just ask. Oats
were about as common as flour, by the way, and they're a traditional
ingredient in Scottish bannock. I've never seen cornmeal. Swords are
surprisingly common--I've got about a half-dozen documented, throughout
the period.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Angela,

Would be very interested in what you have found.  Contact me off list, thanks.

Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Re: Documentation of Dutch Ovens?]
Date: 02 Mar 2000 03:54:12 -0800

On Thu, 02 March 2000, Concho Smith wrote:
> Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]> wrote:
> Recent posts have finally shed some real light on the subject, after all
> the heat. So to recap, our documentation on Dutch ovens is:
> Excavated: 1 (Bent's Fort)
> Mentioned in journal: 1 (L&C)
> Hypothetical (i.e. documented as used in nearby place or time, but not
> directly tied to fur trade): 2
>
> Please let me know if there have been posts (or pots!) I've missed.
>
> Your humble & obedient servant,
> Angela Gottfred
> _____________________________________________
> Angela,
>
> We have about the same tally on this subject, hell of alot e-mails for the amount of actual documented iron ware found, good point.
>
> Thanks
> Concho.
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well gang, I have to agree; let's move on to another subject, this one has been beat around as much as the few pots found.

Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: documentation for both flour, and blue willow
Date: 02 Mar 2000 04:02:21 -0800 (PST)



> Angela Gottfred wrote...
> I have good documentation for both flour <snip>
<unsnip> I've never seen cornmeal.

Angela

Did I not read that Henry the Younger gave his men heading into the
interior each a small bag of cornmeal?

I will have to dig out the journals when I get home from work, but it
would have been just a couple of weeks before he drowned in the Columbia
in the spring of 1814.

Also, I spent several hours pouring over that particular journal the other
night looking for any reference to cast iron kettles.  Found many a
references to kettles, but none mentioned the word cast.  I would have
thought the main kitchen at Fort George would at least have had some?

Your Most Obedient Servant...

Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho
Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders
http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: documentation for both flour, and blue willow
Date: 02 Mar 2000 05:10:39 -0800 (PST)



On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, Lee Newbill wrote:
> Did I not read that Henry the Younger gave his men heading into the
> interior each a small bag of cornmeal?

I stand corrected....

May 1st, 1814...provisions for twelve days... beef,
pork, flour, corn, peas, rum, etc.

No corn meal.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: TEST
Date: 02 Mar 2000 08:12:37 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BF841F.128630A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Just checking


"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"


------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BF841F.128630A0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Just checking</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math=20
e"<BR>          DOUBLE EDGE =

FORGE<BR>  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements<BR>   =
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1">http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1</A=
><BR> =20
"Knowing how is just the beginning"<BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BF841F.128630A0--


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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: period correctness
Date: 02 Mar 2000 08:02:56 -0600

    Those who write that such and such probably was not present at pre-1840
Rvou's and, therefore, should not be at present day gatherings are often
missing the point, at least as I see it.
    I believe that we, as present day imitators of the lifestyle, are
(usually) doing our best to preserve the best of that era of American
history.
    If we were to exclude those who need and wear eyeglasses our numbers
would drop dramatically and probably be limited to those under 30 years of
age.  My belief is that there were far more smooth bores in use by mountain
trappers than current lore would lead us to believe. After all, there were
no handy optometrist shops every half mile along the trails. Rifles would
have been almost impossible for many to use.
    To be more 'authentic' we should probably exclude white women and
children from our gatherings.  Of course, that would guarantee that
appreciation for our history would be denied future generations also.
    How many take necessary medication daily while at r'vouz?  To be
authentic one should leave all modern medicines at home. After all, disease
and early death were 'authentic' back then.  As was infection, gangrene and
so on.
    Most of us do our best to preserve the period and respectful debate
about correctness of the times we recreate is fine and necessary.
    However, in my humble opinion, rude nit-pickers should please camp
downwind and downstream and stay away from my camp.  Friendly debaters
welcome.
Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TEST
Date: 02 Mar 2000 06:28:51 -0800

On Thu, 02 March 2000, "D Miles" wrote:

>
> Just checking
>
>
> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>   Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>   "Knowing how is just the beginning"

Received your test brother, what's up, busy here - coming in to work at 3:30am getting out at 6pm all this week and last week.

Have you finished my folder yet ???

Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: documentation for both flour, and blue willow
Date: 02 Mar 2000 06:47:26 -0800

On Thu, 02 March 2000, Lee Newbill wrote:

>
>
>
> On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, Lee Newbill wrote:
> > Did I not read that Henry the Younger gave his men heading into the
> > interior each a small bag of cornmeal?
>
> I stand corrected....
>
> May 1st, 1814...provisions for twelve days... beef,
> pork, flour, corn, peas, rum, etc.
>
> No corn meal.
>
Lee,

I'm at work and do not have acces to my edibles files on corn meal, etc.

While we're looking at foods again, how about "buckeyes" Aesculus (North American type), you know - the shiny brown nuts. Think we did the bit on leaching to remove acidy taste, was thinking on the lines of other uses for food than edible.

Example the "buckeye" nut, read that many of the native americans as well as some frontiersmen carried then as an alarm system. Grist or Boone would put them in a dirt bank, set a pair from 4-6 inches apart and do several sets. Then set up their camp some ways off, the idea was locals - friendly or not would take this arrangement for the eyes of deer and make noise shooting at their target alerting the one that set the alarm system.

Have read of using flour at night spread on the ground to track an animal that had been raiding a supply cache. I'm sure others on the list have similiar information to share.

Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period correctness questions
Date: 02 Mar 2000 08:05:24 -0800

In either 1986 or 1987, the museum of the fur trade quarterly had a
definitive article on tobacco and cigarettes. You can get a reprint by
contacting the museum. Just yesterday I ran across a letter I got from
Charles Hanson giving me permission to reprint that very article. I don't
think I ever did, but it was nice of him.
-----Original Message-----


>As I explained in a previous post I have spent considerable time and am
>still researching all of the archived material from this list, however I
>have several questions that I have been unable to answer as of yet.  If I
>have overlooked previously posted information on these topics please excuse
>my clumsiness.
>1.  A recent posting indicated that fur hats were probably not correct for
>pre-1840 RMFT rendezvous.  And a respondent indicated that this had been a
>topic of discussion before.  I have been unable to locate that discussion.
>It has always been my understanding having been brought up by an AMM member
>that beaver fur was money and would only be used for something else in an
>emergency.  However, since we accept that the mountaineers adopted Indian
>dress (whether of need or desire is another issue)  and Indians used the
>natural furs available for head coverings, clothing, household utensils
etc.
>Isn't it a little difficult to make the statement that the Rocky Mountain
>trappers and traders did not utilize fur head coverings.....
>2.  Eye glasses were definitely available in the settlements, and although
I
>will accept they may not have been common in the mountains, it is a reach
to
>assume that no one wore a pair west, nor took a spare pair or two, and
would
>have been so clumsy as to have lost or destroyed all of them.  I will admit
>that a person needing glasses who either could not get them, or having lost
>possession of them would soon become victim to either enemies of animals
due
>to lack of accuracy in shooting or not seeing there enemies approach.  I
>also believe that a person of only slight vision problems would attach
>himself to a group so as to compensate for this inadequacy.
>3.  As there is a large contingent within the ranks that support the
>southwest influence within the RMFT I ask the following question.  It was
>common practice to smoke cigarettes rolled in corn husks in the southwest.
>Can anyone provide me with information concerning the preparation and use
of
>the husk material, ie.. how to keep it rolled up once you have successfully
>rolled a cigarette.  size of cigarettes, and appropriateness to the RMFT
>era.
>Thank you in advance for you time and knowledge.  I could not read in a
>lifetime enough books to compile the gathered and documented knowledge of
>this lists members.
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TEST
Date: 02 Mar 2000 10:07:34 -0500

busy here - coming in to work at 3:30am getting out at 6pm all this week and
last week.

>>Keeps you off the streets....it's good for you..

 Have you finished my folder yet ???

>>I put the tiwaneese one back together and I have the blade for the new one
done...You in a hurry?<G>
D




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "DRB Hays" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period correctness
Date: 02 Mar 2000 08:36:08 -0800


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 6:02 AM



> about correctness of the times we recreate is fine and necessary.
>     However, in my humble opinion, rude nit-pickers should please camp
> downwind and downstream and stay away from my camp.  Friendly debaters
> welcome.
> Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas

Amen, and aaaamen.

35 years of buckskins and blackpowder.  the only people i have ever
grown to dislike are the "history police".

doc


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "DRB Hays" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period correctness
Date: 02 Mar 2000 08:36:08 -0800


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 6:02 AM



> about correctness of the times we recreate is fine and necessary.
>     However, in my humble opinion, rude nit-pickers should please camp
> downwind and downstream and stay away from my camp.  Friendly debaters
> welcome.
> Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas

Amen, and aaaamen.

35 years of buckskins and blackpowder.  the only people i have ever
grown to dislike are the "history police".

doc


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: shelters
Date: 02 Mar 2000 09:50:40 -0700

I am going to construct with the local scouts some canvas shelters. I
want them to  pitch them as a diamond shelter. What sizes do you
recomend. I have my ideas, but want to hear others. The holes will be
hand sewn for groments.

Thanks
Joe

ps bout enough on dutch oven, heh

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period correctness questions
Date: 02 Mar 2000 08:55:13 -0800

On Thu, 02 March 2000, Bill Cunningham wrote:

>
> In either 1986 or 1987, the museum of the fur trade quarterly had a definitive article on tobacco and cigarettes. You can get a reprint by contacting the museum. Just yesterday I ran across a letter I got from
> Charles Hanson giving me permission to reprint that very article. I don't
> think I ever did, but it was nice of him.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bill,
Those that never talked to Charlie or had any dealings with him, will never know what a resource he was, his knowledge and Marie's is endless when it came to the Fur Trade in North America and Russia.

When I put together the tradegun information for for the internet, even in poor health - Charlie was available for his thoughts and comments.

The free information that was supplied over the years was endless, no one will ever know how much was spent on the postage alone in answering questions from these two. God Bless them.

Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period correctness questions
Date: 02 Mar 2000 10:19:18 -0800

Pardner, you got that exactly right - and when I see someone posting
something about Charlie that I take as a pejorative comment, I tend to get a
little cranky. Sure, none of us is infallible, but with his extensive
background, and his willingness to share it, he was less so than most.
Bill
-----Original Message-----


>On Thu, 02 March 2000, Bill Cunningham wrote:
>
>>
>> In either 1986 or 1987, the museum of the fur trade quarterly had a
definitive article on tobacco and cigarettes. You can get a reprint by
contacting the museum. Just yesterday I ran across a letter I got from
>> Charles Hanson giving me permission to reprint that very article. I don't
>> think I ever did, but it was nice of him.
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Bill,
>Those that never talked to Charlie or had any dealings with him, will never
know what a resource he was, his knowledge and Marie's is endless when it
came to the Fur Trade in North America and Russia.
>
>When I put together the tradegun information for for the internet, even in
poor health - Charlie was available for his thoughts and comments.
>
>The free information that was supplied over the years was endless, no one
will ever know how much was spent on the postage alone in answering
questions from these two. God Bless them.
>
>Later
>Buck Conner
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
>                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period correctness questions
Date: 02 Mar 2000 09:17:44 -0800

>From "Museum of The Fur Trade Quarterly" index,1985-1988, Vol.'s. xxi
through xxiv.

Tobacco box, wood, photo xxiv 2, 7
Tobacco, carrot, photo xxiv 2, 4
Tobacco in the Fur Trade xxiv 2, 2-12
Tobacco, plug, photo xxiv 2, 6
Tobacco twist, photo xxiv 2, 5

John Funk


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 8:05 AM


> In either 1986 or 1987, the museum of the fur trade quarterly had a
> definitive article on tobacco and cigarettes. You can get a reprint by
> contacting the museum. Just yesterday I ran across a letter I got from
> Charles Hanson giving me permission to reprint that very article. I don't
> think I ever did, but it was nice of him.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Poorboy <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 7:00 PM
> Subject: MtMan-List: Period correctness questions
>
>
> >As I explained in a previous post I have spent considerable time and am
> >still researching all of the archived material from this list, however I
> >have several questions that I have been unable to answer as of yet.  If I
> >have overlooked previously posted information on these topics please
excuse
> >my clumsiness.
> >1.  A recent posting indicated that fur hats were probably not correct
for
> >pre-1840 RMFT rendezvous.  And a respondent indicated that this had been
a
> >topic of discussion before.  I have been unable to locate that
discussion.
> >It has always been my understanding having been brought up by an AMM
member
> >that beaver fur was money and would only be used for something else in an
> >emergency.  However, since we accept that the mountaineers adopted Indian
> >dress (whether of need or desire is another issue)  and Indians used the
> >natural furs available for head coverings, clothing, household utensils
> etc.
> >Isn't it a little difficult to make the statement that the Rocky Mountain
> >trappers and traders did not utilize fur head coverings.....
> >2.  Eye glasses were definitely available in the settlements, and
although
> I
> >will accept they may not have been common in the mountains, it is a reach
> to
> >assume that no one wore a pair west, nor took a spare pair or two, and
> would
> >have been so clumsy as to have lost or destroyed all of them.  I will
admit
> >that a person needing glasses who either could not get them, or having
lost
> >possession of them would soon become victim to either enemies of animals
> due
> >to lack of accuracy in shooting or not seeing there enemies approach.  I
> >also believe that a person of only slight vision problems would attach
> >himself to a group so as to compensate for this inadequacy.
> >3.  As there is a large contingent within the ranks that support the
> >southwest influence within the RMFT I ask the following question.  It was
> >common practice to smoke cigarettes rolled in corn husks in the
southwest.
> >Can anyone provide me with information concerning the preparation and use
> of
> >the husk material, ie.. how to keep it rolled up once you have
successfully
> >rolled a cigarette.  size of cigarettes, and appropriateness to the RMFT
> >era.
> >Thank you in advance for you time and knowledge.  I could not read in a
> >lifetime enough books to compile the gathered and documented knowledge of
> >this lists members.
> >
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period correctness
Date: 02 Mar 2000 09:57:34 -0800

Bearclaw,

I'll be perfectly honest and admit that I am not sure where you are coming
from with these statements. But if you mean to imply what you sound like you
are implying, I think it is you who may be missing the point.

The point is that this is a list devoted to discussions of historical fact
and the pursuit of historical accuracy. I have not heard anyone say that eye
wear of any kind should not be allowed, that medications should not be
allowed, that wives and children should not be allowed. Nor have I seen
anyone say that only smoothbores should be present or only rifle guns should
be present. What I have seen are honest attempts to identify what items are
historically appropriate and where possible what items of present use are
not historically accurate and in what way they are not accurate.

In the context of the American Mountain Men (the organization) it is
important what is used and etc. at that organizations functions. That group
proudly sets it's self a higher standard. While encouraging others to step
up to that standard,it does not condemn the other gatherings where a looser
standard is accepted. Nor does it condemn the attendee's of other gatherings
for the corners they cut but rather tries to educate and set an example.

There are folks inside and outside of  groups like the AMM that one can
freely characterize as "clothing police" or "authenticity Gestapo" but I
would hope that none appear here. For my part as a member of AMM, I am still
learning about what was done and what wasn't done back in the days of the
Rocky Mt. Fur Trapper. I personally do my best to recreate that era to the
best of my understanding. I will share that understanding and politely
debate the here for's and where as's with anyone that seems interested. I
would hope that I don't get in anyone's face about what they do that I see
as "not historically correct". If I do, I apologize. I also believe that
such discussions as we have here and such discussions we may have in camps
wherever, benefit  all who care to partake and/or listen. I strongly object
to anyone including myself being dishonest enough to represent their "modern
short cuts" as authentic.

Be honest enough to freely admit that the things we do and the things we use
that are not authenticated are just what they are,expedients to our comfort
and choices we make or have to make in the light of our modern upbringing or
medical needs, or our unwillingness to eat what was eaten, camp as they did,
etc. So if you pack a knock down wooden bed to the Nationals for the comfort
of your wife and your tired old back as I do, be honest enough to tell
yourself and others you may influence that such is not particularly
authentic but in this venue your gona do it anyway. If your gona wear
clothing that you know is not really appropriate or authentic to the
Mountain Man era (or whatever era) then be honest enough to admit that it
ain't, you only wear it cause you like it or you think it is stylish and
what every tourist thinks is how the original MT.man dressed.

That being said, I agree with you whole heartedly that,"However, in my
humble opinion, rude nit-pickers should please camp
> downwind and downstream and stay away from my camp.  Friendly debaters
> welcome." In total agreement, I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'


Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 6:02 AM


>     Those who write that such and such probably was not present at
pre-1840
> Rvou's and, therefore, should not be at present day gatherings are often
> missing the point, at least as I see it.
>     I believe that we, as present day imitators of the lifestyle, are
> (usually) doing our best to preserve the best of that era of American
> history.
>     If we were to exclude those who need and wear eyeglasses our numbers
> would drop dramatically and probably be limited to those under 30 years of
> age.  My belief is that there were far more smooth bores in use by
mountain
> trappers than current lore would lead us to believe. After all, there were
> no handy optometrist shops every half mile along the trails. Rifles would
> have been almost impossible for many to use.
>     To be more 'authentic' we should probably exclude white women and
> children from our gatherings.  Of course, that would guarantee that
> appreciation for our history would be denied future generations also.
>     How many take necessary medication daily while at r'vouz?  To be
> authentic one should leave all modern medicines at home. After all,
disease
> and early death were 'authentic' back then.  As was infection, gangrene
and
> so on.
>     Most of us do our best to preserve the period and respectful debate
> about correctness of the times we recreate is fine and necessary.
>     However, in my humble opinion, rude nit-pickers should please camp
> downwind and downstream and stay away from my camp.  Friendly debaters
> welcome.
> Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shelters
Date: 02 Mar 2000 10:01:32 -0800

Joe,

We have found that square cuts seem to work best for this style shelter. For
youngsters you may be able to go as small as 8' by 8' (maybe even 7X7) but
for myself and another adult, 9' by 9' or 10' by 10' seems to provide more
coverage and head room. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: documentation for both flour, and blue willowware.
Date: 02 Mar 2000 09:18:33 -0800

Lee,

In "Astoria", by Washington Irving, in Chapter XVI it is mentioned that the
overland party quit down on their luck had 40 lb. of "Indian corn".  In a
later passage of that same chapter, they were reported to be eating "parched
corn". So corn as a whole grain was fairly common when it could be traded
from the locals or grown at a post or trading fort.

As to the question of "corn meal", it is probably safe to say that shelled
corn is easier to carry than ground corn meal. It can be parched and eaten
thus or parched and ground into a finer product. It is possible that Indians
using stone grinding tools ( I forget the names of base stone and grinding
stone) produced corn meal from dry corn seed. On the trail, the
trapper/traveler would have had better luck using corn after parching, which
makes it edible and easy to further process. No answer to the question of
"corn meal" yea or ney but leaves the door open. I remain...

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 5:10 AM
willowware.


>
>
> On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, Lee Newbill wrote:
> > Did I not read that Henry the Younger gave his men heading into the
> > interior each a small bag of cornmeal?
>
> I stand corrected....
>
> May 1st, 1814...provisions for twelve days... beef,
> pork, flour, corn, peas, rum, etc.
>
> No corn meal.
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period correctness questions
Date: 02 Mar 2000 11:20:53 -0700

Hallo the camp!!
A few of my favorite mountain men are:
1. John Colter, the first American Mountain Man
2. Uncle Dick Wooten
3. Jacob Berger
4. John Gardner

One of the items I do not think would be seen among the American Mountain
Men is the expensive HBC blankets here in south central Montana or north
central Wyoming.

I do not use expensive flour in the manner of a "pancake party" VBG, but I
believe it happened.  Nor to I carry my flour loose.  I wet a few pints,
pounds, dollars of flour and shape it into easy to carry a few balls of the
hard flour.

Mountain men moved early in the day when on the move.  Stopping to noon
before the middle of the day.  If I am on foot or horse back.  It is a
simple move to set the pot add a little water throw in a handful of jerky to
soak while I pick up an armful of fire making stuff.  The shape of the pot
is designed to conserve fuel.  A little fire does not burn with much smoke.
I make the fire and bring things to a boil and then shave off an ounce or so
of the flour material directly into the pot.  The quickly made fire goes out
and as soon as the temperature of the meal becomes cool enough to eat.  That
is done and a hand full of water is all that it takes to clean the pot.
This gives the reader an idea of a plumb practical approach to one pot and
simple food  to go along with any fresh meat while on the move.

If the mountain men were in winter camp between trapping seasons as they
were I think bear sign from time to time would have been enough joy to have
lasted through the winter season which can be really tough here in Montana
at times.
Walt
Park City, Montana






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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Mountain Rifles
Date: 02 Mar 2000 10:03:37 -0500

jerry strobel
you might contact don steith at [e-mail] he makes a very good
hawken and also a demick rifle that is taken from the originals that he
owns---don is a good friend of mine so tell him i told you to ask---he
aint cheep but he does do quality work---and is probably as cantankerous
as i am and is quite opiniated on hawken rifles---but we usually agree on
this---his phone number is 1-804-328-2962---if you want further info on
don smitty knows him and the type of work he does as don usto live in st
louis and we all usto shoot together---don usto be a perfectionest in his
gun work and I havent seen one of his hawkens for several years but they
usto be as close to right as they can be---one of the major manufactures
that sells kits uses don's pattern for their stock---wayne dunlap does
his cutting from the master---don also furnishes kits but in what state i
cannot tell you---I have seen pictures of his demick and it really looks
good---and it is totally period correct for the fur trade---a nice half
stock planes rifle.

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
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Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period correctness questions
Date: 02 Mar 2000 11:59:58 -0700

Hallo the camp!

One of the things I have not seen expressed is the state of the state of the
American Mountain Men who gathered here in the 5 month winter camp along the
Yellowstone from The Clarks Fork of the Yellowstone mouth up the Yellowstone
to around Park City, Montana.

During one winter in the late 70s while in Great Falls, Monana I spent the
winter reading the Prince of Weid book.  I read while at Fort Union he
observed both Jim Bridger and John Gardner at the fort.  He wrote that
Bridger's party was returning from Canada.  They did not find new fur
territory.  Gardner was there trading for winter supplies.  The book pointed
out that John Gardner received more than twice the amount for his beaver
than did the Bridger men.

This big winter camp that Osborn Russell wrote about was the last time many
of these trappers were in the area.

It was apparent from the book that the American Fur Company had won the
economic fur war with the Bridger group.

This camp was called the Rocky Mountain College.  Much time was devoted in
what to do.  Many who were here left and went to seek fortune in other
places.

Those associated with the AMF stayed and some like John Gardner continued to
make American Mountain Man tracks along the Yellowstone.

The evolution of the mountain man continued.

Walt
Park City, Montana




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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period correctness questions
Date: 02 Mar 2000 12:06:41 -0700

Hallo the camp!
I have some pictures of the area of the birthplace of the American Mountain
Men which would give someone who has no idea of what the country looks like
from place to place or season to season an opportunity to see what they
faced.  Be glad to share
Walt
Park City, Montana


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp fare
Date: 02 Mar 2000 12:20:58 -0700

Hallo the camp"

I have a "test" question for your examination and possible reward.  I am
willing to put up a Mike King beaded neck bag as a prize for the first
person who can give me the best answer for the kind of roots eaten for 10
days while in the Orginial Rocky Mountain College winter camp located here
on the Yellowstone that caused the pot to need to be greased.

A single answer per person.
Answere must be received by 8 AM tomorrow to count
First correct answer receives the brain tan beaded neck bag.
Good Luck!

Question:  Name the roots eaten for the 10 day period.





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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: John Kramer thank you
Date: 02 Mar 2000 12:48:08 -0700

Hallo the camp!, John Kramer.

I want to thank you for your warm personal off list post.  Thank you for
reminding me that we crossed trails at the first Red Lodge Mountain Man
Rendezvous.

I think it is important for greenhorns, lost pilgrams and other hardhorns to
know what a good service he is doing as a die hard for the AMM legacy and
way of life.

I am sure he has survived the heat of battle as well as I have and I would
welcome his 2bits being offered again.

With out mountain men like John Kramer the true inside and outside of the
scope and range of the American Mountain Men in general fade off or blur out
of our vision which is to keep the tradition alive in all the forms the
mountain men evolved to.

Thanks for your off post and even more thanks for keeping the elements
alive.
Come back on line John Kramer we need you and your knowledge base.
Sincerely,
Walt
Park City, Montana


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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: roots
Date: 02 Mar 2000 12:49:44 -0700

Thanks Chance Tiffie,  your logged in.
Walt
Park City


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From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp fare
Date: 02 Mar 2000 11:57:34 -0800

Camas root was cooked so much pot needed to be greased ------hardtack

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp fare
Date: 02 Mar 2000 12:20:58 -0700

Hallo the camp"

I have a "test" question for your examination and possible reward.  I am
willing to put up a Mike King beaded neck bag as a prize for the first
person who can give me the best answer for the kind of roots eaten for 10
days while in the Orginial Rocky Mountain College winter camp located here
on the Yellowstone that caused the pot to need to be greased.

A single answer per person.
Answere must be received by 8 AM tomorrow to count
First correct answer receives the brain tan beaded neck bag.
Good Luck!

Question:  Name the roots eaten for the 10 day period.





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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp fare
Date: 02 Mar 2000 15:40:27 EST

Hmmmmm....how about Camas?

Ymos,
Steve

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp fare
Date: 02 Mar 2000 16:28:45 EST

Hello in the camp
  Walt it was thistle root.          Crazy Cyot

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From: Ronald Schrotter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: eyeglasses
Date: 02 Mar 2000 15:21:05 -0800 (PST)

Howdy the list!  Being prit nigh blind without my
spectacles, I know in my heart that I could probably
never have been a trapper, or mountain man, but since
the appropriatness of glasses being in the mountains
has been brought up [including carrying spares] was
brought up, does anyone know the cost of a pair of
spectacles during our period of interest?  Thanks, Dog
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period correctness
Date: 02 Mar 2000 16:33:46 -0700

Roger,
Extremly well said. I agree with your accessment.
Ole # 718
----------
>From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period correctness
>Date: Thu, Mar 2, 2000, 10:57 AM
>

>Bearclaw,
>
>I'll be perfectly honest and admit that I am not sure where you are coming
>from with these statements. But if you mean to imply what you sound like you
>are implying, I think it is you who may be missing the point.
>
>The point is that this is a list devoted to discussions of historical fact
>and the pursuit of historical accuracy. I have not heard anyone say that eye
>wear of any kind should not be allowed, that medications should not be
>allowed, that wives and children should not be allowed. Nor have I seen
>anyone say that only smoothbores should be present or only rifle guns should
>be present. What I have seen are honest attempts to identify what items are
>historically appropriate and where possible what items of present use are
>not historically accurate and in what way they are not accurate.
>
>In the context of the American Mountain Men (the organization) it is
>important what is used and etc. at that organizations functions. That group
>proudly sets it's self a higher standard. While encouraging others to step
>up to that standard,it does not condemn the other gatherings where a looser
>standard is accepted. Nor does it condemn the attendee's of other gatherings
>for the corners they cut but rather tries to educate and set an example.
>
>There are folks inside and outside of  groups like the AMM that one can
>freely characterize as "clothing police" or "authenticity Gestapo" but I
>would hope that none appear here. For my part as a member of AMM, I am still
>learning about what was done and what wasn't done back in the days of the
>Rocky Mt. Fur Trapper. I personally do my best to recreate that era to the
>best of my understanding. I will share that understanding and politely
>debate the here for's and where as's with anyone that seems interested. I
>would hope that I don't get in anyone's face about what they do that I see
>as "not historically correct". If I do, I apologize. I also believe that
>such discussions as we have here and such discussions we may have in camps
>wherever, benefit  all who care to partake and/or listen. I strongly object
>to anyone including myself being dishonest enough to represent their "modern
>short cuts" as authentic.
>
>Be honest enough to freely admit that the things we do and the things we use
>that are not authenticated are just what they are,expedients to our comfort
>and choices we make or have to make in the light of our modern upbringing or
>medical needs, or our unwillingness to eat what was eaten, camp as they did,
>etc. So if you pack a knock down wooden bed to the Nationals for the comfort
>of your wife and your tired old back as I do, be honest enough to tell
>yourself and others you may influence that such is not particularly
>authentic but in this venue your gona do it anyway. If your gona wear
>clothing that you know is not really appropriate or authentic to the
>Mountain Man era (or whatever era) then be honest enough to admit that it
>ain't, you only wear it cause you like it or you think it is stylish and
>what every tourist thinks is how the original MT.man dressed.
>
>That being said, I agree with you whole heartedly that,"However, in my
>humble opinion, rude nit-pickers should please camp
>> downwind and downstream and stay away from my camp.  Friendly debaters
>> welcome." In total agreement, I remain....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>To: "MM" <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 6:02 AM
>Subject: MtMan-List: period correctness
>
>
>>     Those who write that such and such probably was not present at
>pre-1840
>> Rvou's and, therefore, should not be at present day gatherings are often
>> missing the point, at least as I see it.
>>     I believe that we, as present day imitators of the lifestyle, are
>> (usually) doing our best to preserve the best of that era of American
>> history.
>>     If we were to exclude those who need and wear eyeglasses our numbers
>> would drop dramatically and probably be limited to those under 30 years of
>> age.  My belief is that there were far more smooth bores in use by
>mountain
>> trappers than current lore would lead us to believe. After all, there were
>> no handy optometrist shops every half mile along the trails. Rifles would
>> have been almost impossible for many to use.
>>     To be more 'authentic' we should probably exclude white women and
>> children from our gatherings.  Of course, that would guarantee that
>> appreciation for our history would be denied future generations also.
>>     How many take necessary medication daily while at r'vouz?  To be
>> authentic one should leave all modern medicines at home. After all,
>disease
>> and early death were 'authentic' back then.  As was infection, gangrene
>and
>> so on.
>>     Most of us do our best to preserve the period and respectful debate
>> about correctness of the times we recreate is fine and necessary.
>>     However, in my humble opinion, rude nit-pickers should please camp
>> downwind and downstream and stay away from my camp.  Friendly debaters
>> welcome.
>> Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas
>>
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: in need of fur prices, kids school  project
Date: 02 Mar 2000 19:21:36 EST


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Return-path: [e-mail]
Full-name: Traphand
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 61

 Hello list,
             In need of help.   Wife signed me up at my kid's school for
living
History day (Missouri).   Need to know the prices for beaver and other furs
from 1800-1840 when sold at Western Rendezvous compared to prices
received in St. Louis.    Would like prices to compare between both places.

Thank you.

rick
[e-mail]

--part1_4c.25bef07.25f05f90_boundary--

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From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period correctness questions
Date: 02 Mar 2000 18:37:33 -0700

Bill - Might be a good one for the T&LR.  Don

On Friday, April 21, 1939, [e-mail] wrote:
>In either 1986 or 1987, the museum of the fur trade quarterly had a
>definitive article on tobacco and cigarettes. You can get a reprint by
>contacting the museum. Just yesterday I ran across a letter I got from
>Charles Hanson giving me permission to reprint that very article. I don't
>think I ever did, but it was nice of him.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Poorboy <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 7:00 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Period correctness questions
>
>
>>As I explained in a previous post I have spent considerable time and am
>>still researching all of the archived material from this list, however I
>>have several questions that I have been unable to answer as of yet.  If =
I
>>have overlooked previously posted information on these topics please =
excuse
>>my clumsiness.
>>1.  A recent posting indicated that fur hats were probably not correct =
for
>>pre-1840 RMFT rendezvous.  And a respondent indicated that this had been =
a
>>topic of discussion before.  I have been unable to locate that discussion=
.
>>It has always been my understanding having been brought up by an AMM =
member
>>that beaver fur was money and would only be used for something else in =
an
>>emergency.  However, since we accept that the mountaineers adopted =
Indian
>>dress (whether of need or desire is another issue)  and Indians used the
>>natural furs available for head coverings, clothing, household utensils
>etc.
>>Isn't it a little difficult to make the statement that the Rocky =
Mountain
>>trappers and traders did not utilize fur head coverings.....
>>2.  Eye glasses were definitely available in the settlements, and =
although
>I
>>will accept they may not have been common in the mountains, it is a =
reach
>to
>>assume that no one wore a pair west, nor took a spare pair or two, and
>would
>>have been so clumsy as to have lost or destroyed all of them.  I will =
admit
>>that a person needing glasses who either could not get them, or having =
lost
>>possession of them would soon become victim to either enemies of animals
>due
>>to lack of accuracy in shooting or not seeing there enemies approach.  I
>>also believe that a person of only slight vision problems would attach
>>himself to a group so as to compensate for this inadequacy.
>>3.  As there is a large contingent within the ranks that support the
>>southwest influence within the RMFT I ask the following question.  It =
was
>>common practice to smoke cigarettes rolled in corn husks in the =
southwest.
>>Can anyone provide me with information concerning the preparation and =
use
>of
>>the husk material, ie.. how to keep it rolled up once you have =
successfully
>>rolled a cigarette.  size of cigarettes, and appropriateness to the RMFT
>>era.
>>Thank you in advance for you time and knowledge.  I could not read in a
>>lifetime enough books to compile the gathered and documented knowledge =
of
>>this lists members.
>>
>>
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info:
>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period correctness
Date: 02 Mar 2000 18:34:44 -0800

You where very nice and did an excellent job on this one Capt., yee makes one proud to be your brother.

Buck Conner
AMM Baker Party Colorado Territory
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On Thu, 02 March 2000, "Roger Lahti" wrote:
> Bearclaw,
>
> I'll be perfectly honest and admit that I am not sure where you are coming
> from with these statements. But if you mean to imply what you sound like you
> are implying, I think it is you who may be missing the point.
>
> The point is that this is a list devoted to discussions of historical fact
> and the pursuit of historical accuracy. I have not heard anyone say that eye
> wear of any kind should not be allowed, that medications should not be
> allowed, that wives and children should not be allowed. Nor have I seen
> anyone say that only smoothbores should be present or only rifle guns should
> be present. What I have seen are honest attempts to identify what items are
> historically appropriate and where possible what items of present use are
> not historically accurate and in what way they are not accurate.
>
> In the context of the American Mountain Men (the organization) it is
> important what is used and etc. at that organizations functions. That group
> proudly sets it's self a higher standard. While encouraging others to step
> up to that standard,it does not condemn the other gatherings where a looser
> standard is accepted. Nor does it condemn the attendee's of other gatherings
> for the corners they cut but rather tries to educate and set an example.
>
> There are folks inside and outside of  groups like the AMM that one can
> freely characterize as "clothing police" or "authenticity Gestapo" but I
> would hope that none appear here. For my part as a member of AMM, I am still
> learning about what was done and what wasn't done back in the days of the
> Rocky Mt. Fur Trapper. I personally do my best to recreate that era to the
> best of my understanding. I will share that understanding and politely
> debate the here for's and where as's with anyone that seems interested. I
> would hope that I don't get in anyone's face about what they do that I see
> as "not historically correct". If I do, I apologize. I also believe that
> such discussions as we have here and such discussions we may have in camps
> wherever, benefit  all who care to partake and/or listen. I strongly object
> to anyone including myself being dishonest enough to represent their "modern
> short cuts" as authentic.
>
> Be honest enough to freely admit that the things we do and the things we use
> that are not authenticated are just what they are,expedients to our comfort
> and choices we make or have to make in the light of our modern upbringing or
> medical needs, or our unwillingness to eat what was eaten, camp as they did,
> etc. So if you pack a knock down wooden bed to the Nationals for the comfort
> of your wife and your tired old back as I do, be honest enough to tell
> yourself and others you may influence that such is not particularly
> authentic but in this venue your gona do it anyway. If your gona wear
> clothing that you know is not really appropriate or authentic to the
> Mountain Man era (or whatever era) then be honest enough to admit that it
> ain't, you only wear it cause you like it or you think it is stylish and
> what every tourist thinks is how the original MT.man dressed.
>
> That being said, I agree with you whole heartedly that,"However, in my
> humble opinion, rude nit-pickers should please camp
> > downwind and downstream and stay away from my camp.  Friendly debaters
> > welcome." In total agreement, I remain....
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
>
> To: "MM" <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 6:02 AM
> Subject: MtMan-List: period correctness
>
>
> >     Those who write that such and such probably was not present at
> pre-1840
> > Rvou's and, therefore, should not be at present day gatherings are often
> > missing the point, at least as I see it.
> >     I believe that we, as present day imitators of the lifestyle, are
> > (usually) doing our best to preserve the best of that era of American
> > history.
> >     If we were to exclude those who need and wear eyeglasses our numbers
> > would drop dramatically and probably be limited to those under 30 years of
> > age.  My belief is that there were far more smooth bores in use by
> mountain
> > trappers than current lore would lead us to believe. After all, there were
> > no handy optometrist shops every half mile along the trails. Rifles would
> > have been almost impossible for many to use.
> >     To be more 'authentic' we should probably exclude white women and
> > children from our gatherings.  Of course, that would guarantee that
> > appreciation for our history would be denied future generations also.
> >     How many take necessary medication daily while at r'vouz?  To be
> > authentic one should leave all modern medicines at home. After all,
> disease
> > and early death were 'authentic' back then.  As was infection, gangrene
> and
> > so on.
> >     Most of us do our best to preserve the period and respectful debate
> > about correctness of the times we recreate is fine and necessary.
> >     However, in my humble opinion, rude nit-pickers should please camp
> > downwind and downstream and stay away from my camp.  Friendly debaters
> > welcome.
> > Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

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From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TEST
Date: 02 Mar 2000 18:36:03 -0800

On Thu, 02 March 2000, "D Miles" wrote:

>
> busy here - coming in to work at 3:30am getting out at 6pm all this week and
> last week.
>
> >>Keeps you off the streets....it's good for you..
>
>  Have you finished my folder yet ???
>
> >>I put the tiwaneese one back together and I have the blade for the new one
> done...You in a hurry?<G>
> D
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

no hurray.

Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

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From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Blue willow ware
Date: 02 Mar 2000 19:13:33 -0800

Real life is interfering with my ability to respond promptly, but I'll
try to get to each of these items in turn. First, the documentation I've
found for blue willow ware in the Canadian fur trade, 1774-1821.

2 shards of pottery with blue transfer printing were excavated from Rocky
Mountain House I, which was occupied from 1799 to 1821. One of the shards
had been made into a button or bead. (Noble, 116, 118)

7 fragments from a "'Chinese-shaped' pearlware bowl decorated on the
outside and the interior centre with a cobalt blue underglaze
transfer-print which apparently depicts an English rural scene" were
excavated from Fort Wedderburne II (near Ft. Chipewyan), which was
occupied solely from 1817 to 1818. (Karklins, 238-239)

At Ft. George (N. Saskatchewan R.), a number of interesting shards were
found. 12 fragments of "blue-decorated, glazed earthenware" were
excavated. "The decoration has been described as an 'underglaze cobalt
blue transfer-printing, perhaps from the factories at Worcester or
Caughley' (Dr. Gerald Higgins, personal communication). Most of the
designs are almost certainly Chinese-derived, and some appear to be
willow pattern. Three additional shards may be similarly patterned,
although they retain only the white or bluish tinted background." Under
the heading "Blue-on-Cream Earthenware", the report states "A single
example may be of similar pattern to the above, but the background is
cream instead of white, and only a trace of blue decoration remains."
Finally, under the heading "Blue-decorated Porcelain", Kidd notes "Two
sepcimens of blue-figured, hard-paste porcelain, probably from Canton"
(Kidd, 128) Fort George was occupied from 1792 to 1800; in 1809,
Alexander Henry the Younger mentioned seeing its ruins, which he salvaged
to construct his own post at Fort Vermilion, many miles downstream.

What does it mean? It means that blue transfer-printed porcelain and
pottery (of which blue willow is one pattern) was definely present at
Canadian fur posts during the 1774-1821 period. If anyone wants the full
information on the references I cited, just ask.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

Your humb

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: OFF TOPIC-BOOKS
Date: 02 Mar 2000 20:18:03 -0600

Washtahay-
    if there is anyone on the list who is particularly interested in Anasazi
archaeology, or southwest pottery, drop me a list off-line.  I ran across a
bunch of reports, type studies, etc, and it just isn't something in which I
have a serious interest.
LongWalker c. du B.


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Blue willow ware
Date: 02 Mar 2000 22:14:00 EST

I was gifted a shard of blue on white pottery recoved from diggings at  the
La Purisima Mission in California by my dear, departed Brother, Dances With
Wood.  I  remember him telling me that the pottery was made at the Mission in
the late 17 to early 1800's.  Anyone have any info or a link that would be of
help placing this in our 'period'?   Thanks, Barney Fife

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: documentation for both corn meal and cast iron
Date: 02 Mar 2000 22:50:59 EST

The inventory of item delivered to the Northwest Company as the Pacific Fur
Company turned over Astoria to them in Oct. 1813 includes "one cast iron
griddle," valued at $.81. (Message from the President of the United States
Communicating the Letter of Mr. Prevost, and other Documents, Relating to an
Establishment Made at the Mouth of the Columbia River, Jan. 27, 1823.  page
37)

This is from the inventory at the fort, well before the rendezvous began, so,
unfortunately, it does not authenticate cast iron utensils in the Rocky
Mountain Fur Trade.

As for corn meal, none shows on the inventory.  However, on page 38 of the
same document is "one corn mill, iron balance and wheel," valued at $13.00.

Jim Hardee, AMM# 1676
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA  95971
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)
[phone] FAX
[e-mail]

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From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp fare
Date: 02 Mar 2000 21:16:11 -0700

prairie turnips?

Joe

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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period correctness
Date: 02 Mar 2000 20:23:05 -0800


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 3:33 PM


> Roger,
> Extremly well said. I agree with your accessment.
> Ole # 718

Ole,


Thank you for watching my back. It means a lot coming from a fella like you.
I remain...

YMOS
Capt. Lahti' # 1719
Clerk, Wilson Price Hunt Party
NW Brigade, AMM

Aux Aliments de Pays!



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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period correctness questions
Date: 02 Mar 2000 22:00:06 -0800

Yeah, if ever I can make the size and mix right for an issue. I'm working on
May and it's about to defeat me!
-----Original Message-----


Bill - Might be a good one for the T&LR.  Don

On Friday, April 21, 1939, [e-mail] wrote:
>In either 1986 or 1987, the museum of the fur trade quarterly had a
>definitive article on tobacco and cigarettes. You can get a reprint by
>contacting the museum. Just yesterday I ran across a letter I got from
>Charles Hanson giving me permission to reprint that very article. I don't
>think I ever did, but it was nice of him.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Poorboy <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 7:00 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Period correctness questions
>
>
>>As I explained in a previous post I have spent considerable time and am
>>still researching all of the archived material from this list, however I
>>have several questions that I have been unable to answer as of yet.  If I
>>have overlooked previously posted information on these topics please
excuse
>>my clumsiness.
>>1.  A recent posting indicated that fur hats were probably not correct for
>>pre-1840 RMFT rendezvous.  And a respondent indicated that this had been a
>>topic of discussion before.  I have been unable to locate that discussion.
>>It has always been my understanding having been brought up by an AMM
member
>>that beaver fur was money and would only be used for something else in an
>>emergency.  However, since we accept that the mountaineers adopted Indian
>>dress (whether of need or desire is another issue)  and Indians used the
>>natural furs available for head coverings, clothing, household utensils
>etc.
>>Isn't it a little difficult to make the statement that the Rocky Mountai


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From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Flour Balls
Date: 02 Mar 2000 20:48:14 -0800 (PST)

On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, Walt Foster wrote:
> I do not use expensive flour in the manner of a "pancake party" VBG, but I
> believe it happened.  Nor to I carry my flour loose.  I wet a few pints,
> pounds, dollars of flour and shape it into easy to carry a few balls of the
> hard flour.

Interesting concept... will have to try that.  How long is the
"wetted" flour good for?

Your Most Obedient Servant...

Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho
Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders
http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Thanks for the help
Date: 03 Mar 2000 02:27:04 EST

Ho the List,
Just a quick not to publicly thank Northwoods for the "Canadians" book and
Buck for the article on, and plans for, the "Red River Cart". You boys are
welcome in my camp anytime our trails cross, and I surely do appreciate it.
Ymos,
Steve

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: the "Ice Man's" Fire kit.
Date: 03 Mar 2000 02:34:45 EST

Ho the list,
Last week I saw an interesting show on the Ice Man and some of what he
carried with him. (The Discovery channel) Seems he carried in his fire
makins, iron pyrite, flint and a dried mushroom for char. They showed a guy
scrape shavings off the dried mushroom, pull into a mound, then strike the
pyrite with the flint....and you guessed it, the mushroom caught and held the
sparks! Did anyone happen to hear what kind of mushroom that was? I need a
couple....
Ymos,
Steve

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: iron target/back stop
Date: 03 Mar 2000 02:43:14 EST

Ho the list,
I've finally got the neighbors used to the fire, smoke, and smell of rotten
eggs coming from my back yard when I lob round balls down range. I'm thinkin
I'd like to build some kind of a steel back stop to deflect the lead into a
sand filled box. The lead can then be recovered for a another run. Anyone
ever build such a stop and/or maybe have some ideas on it?
Ymos,
Steve

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From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT chat
Date: 03 Mar 2000 01:58:39 -0600

Walt,

Don't worry, I haven't gone away.  Thanks for your kind and understanding
comments.

I have been working on some other projects which presently require a great
deal
of my time and attention.

I'm sure to have something to say soon.

John...

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20


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From: jerry derringer <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Alamo
Date: 03 Mar 2000 05:11:47 -0500

Morning!
This is probably off topic but this is the best place I could think of to find out.
A few years ago, I was watching a t.v. prograsm dealing with phenominons, lost
people, etc. They were at the Alamo & were going to dig up the well there.They had
done ultrasounds & think there was a big stash of artifacts at the bottom of the
well. Rumors said the folks there threw all their good posessions into the well,
including a big stash of gold when they were being attacked. The next program, they
were still digging up the "street" & found a lot of artifacts & were way behind in
their digging as scheduled. I never saw the outcome of what they found in the well.
Anyone know?
Thanks for being indulgent.
JD



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From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the "Ice Man's" Fire kit.
Date: 03 Mar 2000 09:12:12 -0600

I've used "shelf mushrooms" before, they grow alot on the Birches in
Wisconsin.  I've also heard of people boiling them in wood ash first.  I
just slice them and char them like cloth.  Found they take a little
longer to catch but they don't go out! Burned a spot on my picinic
table, should have left them cool longer!  B^)

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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: AMM History?
Date: 03 Mar 2000 08:26:46 -0700

Hello the Camp!
Just as an un scientific survey, how many brothers would be willing to
purchase a copy of the AMM History which would include pictures of early
members,camps and other events and a writen history of the organization?
Ole # 718

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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM History?
Date: 03 Mar 2000 09:33:59 -0600

Me for one.

northwoods


-----Original Message-----


>Hello the Camp!
>Just as an un scientific survey, how many brothers would be willing to
>purchase a copy of the AMM History which would include pictures of early
>members,camps and other events and a writen history of the organization?
>Ole # 718
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the "Ice Man's" Fire kit.
Date: 03 Mar 2000 08:03:54 -0800

Jim,
Why the, "boiling in wood ash" process?

John Funk


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2000 7:12 AM


> I've used "shelf mushrooms" before, they grow alot on the Birches in
> Wisconsin.  I've also heard of people boiling them in wood ash first.  I
> just slice them and char them like cloth.  Found they take a little
> longer to catch but they don't go out! Burned a spot on my picinic
> table, should have left them cool longer!  B^)
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: Ronald Schrotter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: AMM History
Date: 03 Mar 2000 08:10:32 -0800 (PST)

 Brother Ole, since I miss the ol' boys so much, I
would sure be interested in a history of the group,
especially photos of the old times.  Dog, G.H.B.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM History?
Date: 03 Mar 2000 09:53:03 -0800

Ole,

Count me in. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2000 7:26 AM


> Hello the Camp!
> Just as an un scientific survey, how many brothers would be willing to
> purchase a copy of the AMM History which would include pictures of early
> members,camps and other events and a writen history of the organization?
> Ole # 718
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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From: "CrookedHand" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: eyeglasses
Date: 03 Mar 2000 12:57:17 -0500

Dog..

I have the same vision defect! Cain't see my front site if I ain't got my
specs.. but the game is in DEEP trouble If'n I do!

I got me some round supposedly "period correct" shootin glasses from
Mountain State Muzzzleloading fer about $8.00.   took the frames to my
optometrist and he popped the ole lenses out and put my bi-focals in there
as perty as you please... cost another $60...
it's waht I wear and nobody gives me any probs about it.

Mark "Crooked Hand" Toigo /aka/ Wethlee-EnkΘ
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/8699
http://members.xoom.com/crookedhand/gallery.htm
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 6:21 PM


> Howdy the list!  Being prit nigh blind without my
> spectacles, I know in my heart that I could probably
> never have been a trapper, or mountain man, but since
> the appropriatness of glasses being in the mountains
> has been brought up [including carrying spares] was
> brought up, does anyone know the cost of a pair of
> spectacles during our period of interest?  Thanks, Dog
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://im.yahoo.com
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: "CrookedHand" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: iron target/back stop
Date: 03 Mar 2000 13:06:08 -0500

You may not thinsk this is fo great, but I have an old washing machine.. it
has old telephone books, mower blades, steel plates, and SAND.. lotsof SAND
in it... and prolly 5,000 roundballs.. none of which has ever penetrated
from 5 to 150 yards... I set it on a little trailer so I can move it
around.. saves moving the bench!
yhs
Mark "Crooked Hand" Toigo /aka/ Wethlee-EnkΘ
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/8699
http://members.xoom.com/crookedhand/gallery.htm
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2000 2:43 AM


> Ho the list,
> I've finally got the neighbors used to the fire, smoke, and smell of
rotten
> eggs coming from my back yard when I lob round balls down range. I'm
thinkin
> I'd like to build some kind of a steel back stop to deflect the lead into
a
> sand filled box. The lead can then be recovered for a another run. Anyone
> ever build such a stop and/or maybe have some ideas on it?
> Ymos,
> Steve
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


----------------------
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From: "John McKee" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the "Ice Man's" Fire kit.
Date: 03 Mar 2000 12:02:49 -0600

John, I just turned on the box and cleaned up a lot! This is just a guess
but wood ash and water makes a light lye solution and would probably help
brake down the fibers of the mushroom  once it has dried. It might  help it
except a spark easier.  Long John
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2000 10:03 AM


> Ji
> Why the, "boiling in wood ash" process?
>
> John Funk
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Friday, March 03, 2000 7:12 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the "Ice Man's" Fire kit.
>
>
> > I've used "shelf mushrooms" before, they grow alot on the Birches in
> > Wisconsin.  I've also heard of people boiling them in wood ash first.  I
> > just slice them and char them like cloth.  Found they take a little
> > longer to catch but they don't go out! Burned a spot on my picinic
> > table, should have left them cool longer!  B^)
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: iron target/back stop
Date: 03 Mar 2000 13:05:26 EST


In a message dated 3/3/00 10:00:15 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<  none of which has ever penetrated

from 5 to 150 yards... I set it on a little trailer so I can move it

around.. saves moving the bench! >>

Haaaaa....now that's an interesting approach! ......I'm lucky to hit the
ground at 150 yards....<G>

Ymos,
Steve

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From: "John McKee" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM History?
Date: 03 Mar 2000 12:12:15 -0600

My stick floats down that river!! Long John #l677
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2000 9:26 AM


> Hello the Camp!
> Just as an un scientific survey, how many brothers would be willing to
> purchase a copy of the AMM History which would include pictures of early
> members,camps and other events and a writen history of the organization?
> Ole # 718
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the "Ice Man's" Fire kit.
Date: 03 Mar 2000 10:26:21 -0800

Long John
Sounds reasonable.  Got to give that one a try with some local shrooms which
are now starting to pop their heads up. Thanks.
John Funk

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2000 10:02 AM


> John, I just turned on the box and cleaned up a lot! This is just a guess
> but wood ash and water makes a light lye solution and would probably help
> brake down the fibers of the mushroom  once it has dried. It might  help
it
> except a spark easier.  Long John
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John C. Funk, Jr. <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Friday, March 03, 2000 10:03 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the "Ice Man's" Fire kit.
>
>
> > Ji
> > Why the, "boiling in wood ash" process?
> >
> > John Funk
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
> > To: <[e-mail]>
> > Sent: Friday, March 03, 2000 7:12 AM
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the "Ice Man's" Fire kit.
> >
> >
> > > I've used "shelf mushrooms" before, they grow alot on the Birches in
> > > Wisconsin.  I've also heard of people boiling them in wood ash first.
I
> > > just slice them and char them like cloth.  Found they take a little
> > > longer to catch but they don't go out! Burned a spot on my picinic
> > > table, should have left them cool longer!  B^)
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flour Balls
Date: 03 Mar 2000 11:52:44 -0700

Hi Lee,
Isn't it neat how we can spark up the campfire across Yellowstone or
Colter's Hell, a legacy of the American Mountain Man John Colter.  I wonder
what he would think if he could see it now?

It will last through the winter season and still be good as it gets drier
and drier.  It is a neat way to handle flour on the move or while parked
some place and BTW I suggest you try the regular white flour first and then
try some other kinds.  What ever is in your area may closer to the original
than the regular white flour is.

The shape of your pot is just right for batches of parched corn.

If the weather was like today and the past few days back in 1837 when camp
broke then, watch close, the beaver men are working the streams headed south
and west working your way.
Walt
Park City, Montana




----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 9:48 PM


> On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, Walt Foster wrote:
> > I do not use expensive flour in the manner of a "pancake party" VBG, but
I
> > believe it happened.  Nor to I carry my flour loose.  I wet a few pints,
> > pounds, dollars of flour and shape it into easy to carry a few balls of
the
> > hard flour.
>
> Interesting concept... will have to try that.  How long is the
> "wetted" flour good for?
>
> Your Most Obedient Servant...
>
> Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho
> Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders
> http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp fare
Date: 03 Mar 2000 11:27:54 -0700

The answer is Cattail, a good survival food which is rich enough to make a
flour.  This is the most abundant available root(s) along the Yellowstone
and was especially thick between the mouth of the Clarks Fork of the
Yellowstone and Park City, Montana area where initial camp was started in
October 1836 to where the stockade/fort was built to fend off possible
Indian attack on the north side of the river.

Between these 2 locations where the large Bridger mountain man camp was
located a large number of springs that did not freeze over during the winter
were strung out all along the Yellowstone.  A great advantage for a winter
camp.  The reason I say was is because the bulk of the springs are gone and
the long sloughs and straight runs into the Yellowstone are disappearing to.
Only a few remain from the time of the Bridger's big winter camp here ending
about now.

I wonder what it was that got them stuck eating roots for 10 days.   A
storm?  One of those time when games is not to be found anywhere in the
hunting area available?

Camas and Thistle made up the bulk of the answers.
Nice try and thanks for playing a bit of an educational game with me.  Next
time.
Walt
Park City, Montana

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 12:20 PM


> Hallo the camp"
>
> I have a "test" question for your examination and possible reward.  I am
> willing to put up a Mike King beaded neck bag as a prize for the first
> person who can give me the best answer for the kind of roots eaten for 10
> days while in the Orginial Rocky Mountain College winter camp located here
> on the Yellowstone that caused the pot to need to be greased.
>
> A single answer per person.
> Answere must be received by 8 AM tomorrow to count
> First correct answer receives the brain tan beaded neck bag.
> Good Luck!
>
> Question:  Name the roots eaten for the 10 day period.
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp fare
Date: 03 Mar 2000 11:41:32 PST



Mr. Foster,
I would like to read the source of the information you gave on the trappers
eating cattail roots.  It is interesting, as I have read all I can, and have
never ran across the mention of cattails.  Looking forward to learning
something new.

Cliff Tiffie
PO Box 5089
Durant, OK
74702
580-924-4187
---------------------
Aux Aliments de Pays!

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM History?
Date: 03 Mar 2000 14:46:08 -0700

Ole,
    I would if it didn't run too expense. Somewhere between $25-$45.00 would
be great.
                                                                    mike.
(amm1616)

"Ole B. Jensen" wrote:

> Hello the Camp!
> Just as an un scientific survey, how many brothers would be willing to
> purchase a copy of the AMM History which would include pictures of early
> members,camps and other events and a writen history of the organization?
> Ole # 718
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM History
Date: 03 Mar 2000 16:21:06 -0800

Ole,

Put me down, I have some old pictures of early AMM camps and members that have gone to the other side as well as some that are in a hold and waiting position, like many of us now.

Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: eyeglasses
Date: 03 Mar 2000 17:27:14 -0800 (PST)

Hallo

On eyeglasses, Ebay often has them in the period and style acceptable to
most.  I finally narrowed the search parameters downt to;

(spectacles,glasses) wire

I also purchased a pair from Townsends, but alas, they made my already
wide face even more hideious than it normally is.

In the end I found a pair of broken antique frames, had them fixed, and
popped in my prescriptions... total cost about $100.

Without the glasses, I would not be able to enjoy what I do.

Your Most Obedient Servant...

Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho
Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders
http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill



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From: "Douglas Hepner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period correctness
Date: 03 Mar 2000 20:54:54 -0600

Roger wrote:

> I'll be perfectly honest and admit that I am not sure where you are coming
> from with these statements. But if you mean to imply what you sound like
you
> are implying, I think it is you who may be missing the point...

I agree with Roger and I have learned a lot from this list. Some of the most
heated discussions have led me to facts that I might never have known if not
for this list. I am not an AMM member, but have MUCH respect for the
organization. I have learned so many things from some of the members. I
strive to not only look authentic, but be authentic. I take my gear out and
trap, hunt, and hike. Some of my gear holds up well, and some fail. This is
how I do it. I just wanted to add, that if my gear was 100% perfect, and I
had nothing else to learn, then I would give up living history. Heck, that's
what makes it fun for me! Finding that new fact, or going to museums,
digging thru relics at antique stores. Isn't that what this is all about? Or
am I just crazy like my wife thinks?

Sorry for rambling...
"Dull Hawk"


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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp fare
Date: 03 Mar 2000 20:26:55 -0700

Hello Cliff,
It is Walt here.  The reference to roots eaten for a 10 day span is in the
book Journal of a Trapper by Osborn Russell.  Russell does not specifically
say cattail roots were eaten at this time, only roots for 10 days which
caused the need for greasing the cooking vessel.

The only plant material in abundance available then and now to supply just
Osborn's camp is cattail at the site of the Orginial Rocky Mountain College.

Have you read anything about John Gardner?
Walt
Park City, Montana

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2000 12:41 PM


>
>
> Mr. Foster,
> I would like to read the source of the information you gave on the
trappers
> eating cattail roots.  It is interesting, as I have read all I can, and
have
> never ran across the mention of cattails.  Looking forward to learning
> something new.
>
> Cliff Tiffie
> PO Box 5089
> Durant, OK
> 74702
> 580-924-4187
> ---------------------
> Aux Aliments de Pays!
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM History?
Date: 03 Mar 2000 19:05:41 -0800

I would Ole, hardtack #1424

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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alamo
Date: 03 Mar 2000 22:09:42 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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Jerry,
  I don't know much of the details except that they find didn't much of =
anything of great value.  It's my understanding that they had only a =
given amount of time to excavate and they didn't reach the level where =
they believed the real artifacts were.  As I recall the well was in the =
street in front of the Alamo, and there was street construction going =
on.  What they saw on the ultra sound reading was what could have been a =
cannon and what looked like a large chest.  Legend has it that Jim Bowie =
was a wealthy man, and had made his fortune running slaves for or with =
Jean Lafitte.  Supposedly, Bowie, before going inside the Alamo dropped =
a cannon that could not be moved to the mission, and a chest containing =
a fortune in gold down the well to keep Santa Anna from getting them.  =
As I said that is the legend. =20
  The story you are refering to, was in all the newspapers.  I haven't =
heard anything since about it.
Pendleton
 =20
 =20
    -----Original Message-----
    From: jerry derringer <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Friday, March 03, 2000 2:07 AM
    Subject: MtMan-List: Alamo
   =20
   =20
    Morning!
    This is probably off topic but this is the best place I could think =
of to find out.
    A few years ago, I was watching a t.v. prograsm dealing with =
phenominons, lost
    people, etc. They were at the Alamo & were going to dig up the well =
there.They had
    done ultrasounds & think there was a big stash of artifacts at the =
bottom of the
    well. Rumors said the folks there threw all their good posessions =
into the well,
    including a big stash of gold when they were being attacked. The =
next program, they
    were still digging up the "street" & found a lot of artifacts & were =
way behind in
    their digging as scheduled. I never saw the outcome of what they =
found in the well.
    Anyone know?
    Thanks for being indulgent.
    JD
   =20
   =20
   =20
    ----------------------
    hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF855D.2D6AF420
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Jerry,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>  I don't =
know much of=20
the details except that they find didn't much of anything of great =
value. =20
It's my understanding that they had only a given amount of time to =
excavate and=20
they didn't reach the level where they believed the real artifacts =
were. =20
As I recall the well was in the street in front of the Alamo, and there =
was=20
street construction going on.  What they saw on the ultra sound =
reading was=20
what could have been a cannon and what looked like a large chest.  =
Legend=20
has it that Jim Bowie was a wealthy man, and had made his fortune =
running slaves=20
for or with Jean Lafitte.  Supposedly, Bowie, before going inside =
the Alamo=20
dropped a cannon that could not be moved to the mission, and a chest =
containing=20
a fortune in gold down the well to keep Santa Anna from getting =
them.  As I=20
said that is the legend.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>  The story you are refering to, was in all the =

newspapers.  I haven't heard anything since about it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Pendleton</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>  </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>jerry derringer <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>To: =
</B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Friday, March 03, 2000 2:07 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>MtMan-List:=20
    Alamo<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>Morning!<BR>This is probably off topic but =
this is=20
    the best place I could think of to find out.<BR>A few years ago, I =
was=20
    watching a t.v. prograsm dealing with phenominons, lost<BR>people, =
etc. They=20
    were at the Alamo & were going to dig up the well there.They =
had<BR>done=20
    ultrasounds & think there was a big stash of artifacts at the =
bottom of=20
    the<BR>well. Rumors said the folks there threw all their good =
posessions=20
    into the well,<BR>including a big stash of gold when they were being =

    attacked. The next program, they<BR>were still digging up the=20
    "street" & found a lot of artifacts & were way =
behind=20
    in<BR>their digging as scheduled. I never saw the outcome of what =
they found=20
    in the well.<BR>Anyone know?<BR>Thanks for being=20
    indulgent.<BR>JD<BR><BR><BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text =
list=20
    info: <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xm=
ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp fare
Date: 03 Mar 2000 20:06:48 PST


Walt,
I have in front of me a copy of Russel's journal, and it specifically says
that Thistle was the root boiled in the pots, and eaten for ten days. I'm
glad were in agreement on the source of this particular story, as I was
concerned there was something out there I had missed that was remarkably
similar to Russel's account.
I have not read anything on Gardner, but hope to do so soon.

Cliff Tiffie
PO Box 5089
Durant, OK
74702
580-924-4187
---------------------
Aux Aliments de Pays!

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM History?
Date: 03 Mar 2000 21:35:28 -0700

I would.  Don Keas

On Saturday, April 22, 1939, Ole B. Jensen <[e-mail]> =
wrote:
>Hello the Camp!
>Just as an un scientific survey, how many brothers would be willing to
>purchase a copy of the AMM History which would include pictures of early
>members,camps and other events and a writen history of the organization?
>Ole # 718
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info:
>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: iron target/back stop
Date: 03 Mar 2000 21:35:26 -0700

Tilt it forward toward you.

On Saturday, April 22, 1939, [e-mail] wrote:
>Ho the list,
>I've finally got the neighbors used to the fire, smoke, and smell of =
rotten=20
>eggs coming from my back yard when I lob round balls down range. I'm =
thinkin=20
>I'd like to build some kind of a steel back stop to deflect the lead into =
a=20
>sand filled box. The lead can then be recovered for a another run. Anyone=20
>ever build such a stop and/or maybe have some ideas on it?
>Ymos,
>Steve =20
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info:
>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "DUSTY" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TEST
Date: 03 Mar 2000 22:45:17 -0600

dennis,are you sending me messages about my folder or does Buck have one in
the works also? Dusty
-----Original Message-----


>busy here - coming in to work at 3:30am getting out at 6pm all this week
and
>last week.
>
>>>Keeps you off the streets....it's good for you..
>
> Have you finished my folder yet ???
>
>>>I put the tiwaneese one back together and I have the blade for the new
one
>done...You in a hurry?<G>
>D
>
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "DUSTY" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TEST
Date: 03 Mar 2000 22:53:31 -0600

dennis,the lockback you are refering to in your notes to Buck woudn't be
mine would it? Dusty
-----Original Message-----


>busy here - coming in to work at 3:30am getting out at 6pm all this week
and
>last week.
>
>>>Keeps you off the streets....it's good for you..
>
> Have you finished my folder yet ???
>
>>>I put the tiwaneese one back together and I have the blade for the new
one
>done...You in a hurry?<G>
>D
>
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: La Purisima Mission Pottery
Date: 04 Mar 2000 00:03:01 EST

WOW, talk about answering your own question....
 <A HREF=3D"http://best1.net/lapurisima/Pottery.html">Welcome to Mission La=20
Purisima Concepcion</A>=20

La Purisima Mission=20
Granary/Warehouse Site Excavation
Glenn J. Farris
Associate State Archaeologist
"...The few pieces of ceramics found were of the expected Chinese Export=20
porcelain and English transferprint wares." =20

The 1812 Santa Barbara Earthquake: Mission La Purisima (which housed a=20
Pottery Shop) The extraordinary and horrible earthquake, which this Mission=20
suffered on the memorable day of the glorious Apostle St. Thomas, entirely=20
destroyed the church and vestry, buried under the walls the various images=20
and paintings, and ruined the greater part of the furniture. ... Some of the=
=20
work shops went down ... .=20
-report of Fathers Pay=E9ras and Ripoll, December 31, 1812


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From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iceman's mushroom tinder
Date: 04 Mar 2000 00:32:30 -0500 (EST)

Wonder what the chemical compounds are in these fungi that makes them
burn so long?

from Michigan


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tim Nevins" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: traditions flintlock
Date: 03 Mar 2000 23:58:11 PST

I recently purchased a Traditions Pennsylvania flintlock rifle. I have a one
small problem with it though. It chews up flints, I can't even get through a
24 shot shoot without having to change it. I am using knapped flints trying
them bevel up and down and it doesn't seem to matter. I have case hardened
the frizzen and that hasn't seemed to help either. I haven't tried cut
flints yet. I have heard about L and R Lock Company's RPL locks. Does anyone
if the frizzen and pan are the same size are a little bigger. Any help would
be appreciated.

Tim Nevins
______________________________________________________
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jerry derringer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alamo
Date: 04 Mar 2000 04:42:30 -0500


--------------E4A486761A3B77E1F73CD729
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Thank you Larry, for your response, I appreciate you taking the time to
fill me in. (I don't read the paper much.)
jerry

larry pendleton wrote:

>  Jerry,  I don't know much of the details except that they find didn't
> much of anything of great value.  It's my understanding that they had
> only a given amount of time to excavate and they didn't reach the
> level where they believed the real artifacts were.  As I recall the
> well was in the street in front of the Alamo, and there was street
> construction going on.  What they saw on the ultra sound reading was
> what could have been a cannon and what looked like a large chest.
> Legend has it that Jim Bowie was a wealthy man, and had made his
> fortune running slaves for or with Jean Lafitte.  Supposedly, Bowie,
> before going inside the Alamo dropped a cannon that could not be moved
> to the mission, and a chest containing a fortune in gold down the well
> to keep Santa Anna from getting them.  As I said that is the legend.
> The story you are refering to, was in all the newspapers.  I haven't
> heard anything since about it.Pendleton
>
>      -----Original Message-----
>      From: jerry derringer <[e-mail]>
>      To: [e-mail]
>      <[e-mail]>
>      Date: Friday, March 03, 2000 2:07 AM
>      Subject: MtMan-List: AlamoMorning!
>      This is probably off topic but this is the best place I
>      could think of to find out.
>      A few years ago, I was watching a t.v. prograsm dealing with
>      phenominons, lost
>      people, etc. They were at the Alamo & were going to dig up
>      the well there.They had
>      done ultrasounds & think there was a big stash of artifacts
>      at the bottom of the
>      well. Rumors said the folks there threw all their good
>      posessions into the well,
>      including a big stash of gold when they were being attacked.
>      The next program, they
>      were still digging up the "street" & found a lot of
>      artifacts & were way behind in
>      their digging as scheduled. I never saw the outcome of what
>      they found in the well.
>      Anyone know?
>      Thanks for being indulgent.
>      JD
>
>
>
>      ----------------------
>      hist_text list info:
>      http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


--------------E4A486761A3B77E1F73CD729
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
<BODY BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF">
Thank you Larry, for your response, I appreciate you taking the time to
fill me in. (I don't read the paper much.)
<BR>jerry

<P>larry pendleton wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE> <FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>Jerry,</FONT></FONT><FONT SIZE=-1>
I don't know much of the details except that they find didn't much of anything
of great value.  It's my understanding that they had only a given
amount of time to excavate and they didn't reach the level where they believed
the real artifacts were.  As I recall the well was in the street in
front of the Alamo, and there was street construction going on.  What
they saw on the ultra sound reading was what could have been a cannon and
what looked like a large chest.  Legend has it that Jim Bowie was
a wealthy man, and had made his fortune running slaves for or with Jean
Lafitte.  Supposedly, Bowie, before going inside the Alamo dropped
a cannon that could not be moved to the mission, and a chest containing
a fortune in gold down the well to keep Santa Anna from getting them.
As I said that is the legend.</FONT><FONT SIZE=-1>  The story you
are refering to, was in all the newspapers.  I haven't heard anything
since about it.</FONT><FONT SIZE=-1>Pendleton</FONT><FONT SIZE=-1> </FONT><FONT SIZE=-1> </FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>-----Original
Message-----</FONT></FONT></B>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1><B>From: </B>jerry derringer <<A HREF="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>></FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1><B>To: </B><A HREF="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>
<<A HREF="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>></FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1><B>Date: </B>Friday, March 03, 2000
2:07 AM</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1><B>Subject: </B>MtMan-List: Alamo</FONT></FONT>Morning!
<BR>This is probably off topic but this is the best place I could think
of to find out.
<BR>A few years ago, I was watching a t.v. prograsm dealing with phenominons,
lost
<BR>people, etc. They were at the Alamo & were going to dig up the
well there.They had
<BR>done ultrasounds & think there was a big stash of artifacts at
the bottom of the
<BR>well. Rumors said the folks there threw all their good posessions into
the well,
<BR>including a big stash of gold when they were being attacked. The next
program, they
<BR>were still digging up the "street" & found a lot of artifacts &
were way behind in
<BR>their digging as scheduled. I never saw the outcome of what they found
in the well.
<BR>Anyone know?
<BR>Thanks for being indulgent.
<BR>JD
<BR>
<BR>

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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period correctness
Date: 04 Mar 2000 08:08:54 -0800

Glad to see you're just like most of the rest of us.
-----Original Message-----


>Roger wrote:
>
>> I'll be perfectly honest and admit that I am not sure where you are
coming
>> from with these statements. But if you mean to imply what you sound like
>you
>> are implying, I think it is you who may be missing the point...
>
>I agree with Roger and I have learned a lot from this list. Some of the
most
>heated discussions have led me to facts that I might never have known if
not
>for this list. I am not an AMM member, but have MUCH respect for the
>organization. I have learned so many things from some of the members. I
>strive to not only look authentic, but be authentic. I take my gear out and
>trap, hunt, and hike. Some of my gear holds up well, and some fail. This is
>how I do it. I just wanted to add, that if my gear was 100% perfect, and I
>had nothing else to learn, then I would give up living history. Heck,
that's
>what makes it fun for me! Finding that new fact, or going to museums,
>digging thru relics at antique stores. Isn't that what this is all about?
Or
>am I just crazy like my wife thinks?
>
>Sorry for rambling...
>"Dull Hawk"
>
>
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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: traditions flintlock
Date: 04 Mar 2000 08:18:22 -0700

Tim,
I don't know what type of gun you have or who made it, I do know that most
of the Italian made guns, use to good a steel in there frizens which make
the flint come apart. I also don't know if L&R has a comparable made frizen
that will work. Now that I have been so much help here is what I have done
in the past. Find a good gun builder and have him re-sole the frizen for
you.
Re-soling is where you grind out the face of the frizen and silver solder on
a new face made of high carbon steel preferably an old piece of file, the
gun smith also needs to check the angle of the cock in order to make sure it
is correct in the mean while what are you using to hold the flint, I have
found leather to be the best it tends to deaden the impact and last, get
some English Flints from Track of the Wolf.
Ole # 718
Aux Ailments De Pays
----------
>From: "Tim Nevins" <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: MtMan-List: traditions flintlock
>Date: Sat, Mar 4, 2000, 12:58 AM
>

>I recently purchased a Traditions Pennsylvania flintlock rifle. I have a one
>small problem with it though. It chews up flints, I can't even get through a
>24 shot shoot without having to change it. I am using knapped flints trying
>them bevel up and down and it doesn't seem to matter. I have case hardened
>the frizzen and that hasn't seemed to help either. I haven't tried cut
>flints yet. I have heard about L and R Lock Company's RPL locks. Does anyone
>if the frizzen and pan are the same size are a little bigger. Any help would
>be appreciated.
>
>Tim Nevins
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>----------------------
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>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alamo
Date: 04 Mar 2000 09:50:00 -0500

JD
believe the next time you are near the alamo---you might want to take a
walk thru---there is a derrenger rifle ther if i am not mistaken---could
be made by someone in your family tree---

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: iron target/back stop
Date: 04 Mar 2000 09:46:51 -0500

1/2 in steel plate set at a 45 degree angle with at least a 12 " of sand
will stop most anything except high power steel jacked stuff---be sure to
add a catcher plate facing the target to keep the lead from bouncing
back---saw several of them but dont have any exact planns---believe we
discussed this a couple of years ago---check the archives---most of the
guys will probaly direct you to .625 steel but it adds a lot of extra
weight and if you are only shooting round ball it's not required if you
do a good job of welding in the braces and the deflectors---

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp fare
Date: 04 Mar 2000 11:32:11 -0500

walt ---
who won the test---I posted cat tail but computer crashed just after i
sent the msg so didnt see who won---or who else responded with the
correct answer---

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM History?
Date: 04 Mar 2000 11:22:09 -0500

ole---
may have some pictures of hawk bouerton and dale black and pappy horn at
some of the early doins---know there is a picture of patty tweeking dale
blacks mustash (SP) at the trail of tears and holding that flint hawkens
and gritting his teeth---have a couple of pictures of pappy horn---pappy
biggs and coon and mingo up in primative valley in friendship---next time
i get to STL I will dig into the picture box and see what there is and if
you want copies will forward them to you---also some pictures of Bill
Large and dale shooting the Hawken match with coon in his finery off to
the side

there is several of don steith , dale balck ---dan anderson  silver fox
and all at the boon shoot---and believe one at the hawken shoot with john
beard--looking at dale blacks hawken---(the ugly flint one)---also some
pictures of robert redford doing the jerimi johnson thing---dan has
pictures of the first commeranitive L & C treck across Ill ---also have a
bunch of pictures from the canoe trip down the misouri to st charles to
the festival of the little hills---with the landing of the canoes---bunch
of "S____ in that picture box"

have to dig---send me a snail mail address and when i find them will send
to you---


    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
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Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM History?
Date: 04 Mar 2000 10:41:50 -0500

put me on the list---
    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
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Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp fare
Date: 04 Mar 2000 15:34:16 EST

Hello in the camp
 It appears Walt must have got his camps confused. Because it was in Cache
Valley that they lived chiefly upon roots for ten day. They killed two fat
Grizzly Bear April 12 at bout 4 oclk. Our Camp Kettles had not been greased
for some time: as we were continually boiling thistle roots in them during
the day: Page 9 Journal of a Trapper By Osborne Russell. It appears they
lived quit well in the rocky mountain collage camp as far as food went. But
sure did have a lot of trouble with them Black Foots. Its OK Walt If your
like me you've read so much over the years it gets abit muddled sometimes.
Cattails would have been a good guess and probably was one of the roots
boiled in them pots for there are a lot of cattails in Cash Valley and they
are one of the roots that can be dug and used at all times of the year. The
type of thistle they used would have been either Leafy thistle also known as
elk thistle, Drummond's thistle, or Rocky Mountain Celery. The other type of
thistle they could have used was Platte thistle for both these thistles are
native species to the Rockies and are found in Cash Valley.
                                                     Keep your nose to the
ground
                                                    and who knows what you
find to eat.
                                                         crazy Cyot

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Hill" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: traditions flintlock
Date: 04 Mar 2000 13:17:31 -0800

Track of the wolf once advised me to anneal a frizzen and then re-harden it
with Kasenit to get it to spark well
They have instructions (or did) on their website.
He (David) said the frizzen would spark well as it isn't always the quality
of the steel but rather that is is improperly hardened to too hard a
state...

Then again they don't like to work on Italian rifles (I've been told)
----------
>From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: traditions flintlock
>Date: Sat, Mar 4, 2000, 7:18 AM
>

>Tim,
>I don't know what type of gun you have or who made it, I do know that most
>of the Italian made guns, use to good a steel in there frizens which make
>the flint come apart. I also don't know if L&R has a comparable made frizen
>that will work. Now that I have been so much help here is what I have done
>in the past. Find a good gun builder and have him re-sole the frizen for
>you.
>Re-soling is where you grind out the face of the frizen and silver solder on
>a new face made of high carbon steel preferably an old piece of file, the
>gun smith also needs to check the angle of the cock in order to make sure it
>is correct in the mean while what are you using to hold the flint, I have
>found leather to be the best it tends to deaden the impact and last, get
>some English Flints from Track of the Wolf.
>Ole # 718
>Aux Ailments De Pays
>----------
>>From: "Tim Nevins" <[e-mail]>
>>To: [e-mail]
>>Subject: MtMan-List: traditions flintlock
>>Date: Sat, Mar 4, 2000, 12:58 AM
>>
>
>>I recently purchased a Traditions Pennsylvania flintlock rifle. I have a one
>>small problem with it though. It chews up flints, I can't even get through a
>>24 shot shoot without having to change it. I am using knapped flints trying
>>them bevel up and down and it doesn't seem to matter. I have case hardened
>>the frizzen and that hasn't seemed to help either. I haven't tried cut
>>flints yet. I have heard about L and R Lock Company's RPL locks. Does anyone
>>if the frizzen and pan are the same size are a little bigger. Any help would
>>be appreciated.
>>
>>Tim Nevins
>>______________________________________________________
>>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>>
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>----------------------
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>

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From: "Hill" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: traditions flintlock
Date: 04 Mar 2000 13:18:43 -0800

One other thing

Traditions are generally not Italian made they are Spanish made and the
steel is often of uncertain quality (at least I've been told that by gun
makers)
----------
>From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: traditions flintlock
>Date: Sat, Mar 4, 2000, 7:18 AM
>

>Tim,
>I don't know what type of gun you have or who made it, I do know that most
>of the Italian made guns, use to good a steel in there frizens which make
>the flint come apart. I also don't know if L&R has a comparable made frizen
>that will work. Now that I have been so much help here is what I have done
>in the past. Find a good gun builder and have him re-sole the frizen for
>you.
>Re-soling is where you grind out the face of the frizen and silver solder on
>a new face made of high carbon steel preferably an old piece of file, the
>gun smith also needs to check the angle of the cock in order to make sure it
>is correct in the mean while what are you using to hold the flint, I have
>found leather to be the best it tends to deaden the impact and last, get
>some English Flints from Track of the Wolf.
>Ole # 718
>Aux Ailments De Pays
>----------
>>From: "Tim Nevins" <[e-mail]>
>>To: [e-mail]
>>Subject: MtMan-List: traditions flintlock
>>Date: Sat, Mar 4, 2000, 12:58 AM
>>
>
>>I recently purchased a Traditions Pennsylvania flintlock rifle. I have a one
>>small problem with it though. It chews up flints, I can't even get through a
>>24 shot shoot without having to change it. I am using knapped flints trying
>>them bevel up and down and it doesn't seem to matter. I have case hardened
>>the frizzen and that hasn't seemed to help either. I haven't tried cut
>>flints yet. I have heard about L and R Lock Company's RPL locks. Does anyone
>>if the frizzen and pan are the same size are a little bigger. Any help would
>>be appreciated.
>>
>>Tim Nevins
>>______________________________________________________
>>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>>
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
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>

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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: flintlock
Date: 04 Mar 2000 17:09:59 -0600

Tim
    I can't say why your flintlock is chewing up flints but I have found
that quality chipped flints started getting harder and harder to purchase
about 15 years ago.  The original French amber flints are so rare now as to
be too expensive to buy for anything but antiques.
    Some now make their own. I have tried it but only end up with a pile of
scrap and banged up fingers.
    A long time ago I started using sawn flints from Germany, there is
another good source that advertises, I forget the name right now. But I will
put in one of those good sawn ones and forget about it, they last and last.
I emphasize GOOD sawn ones. There are a lot of lesser quality out there that
are really bummers.
    As far as widespread use in the RMFT, I don't know and do not wish to
start that debate. But I do know from my experience that good ones work
well. When I pull the trigger I want the rifle to fire. My Siler lock will
shoot reliably even when there is no primer powder in the pan.
Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: flintlock
Date: 04 Mar 2000 18:35:44 EST

Hello the list:  I have also found that the milled German Agate Flints,
(which according to Dixie have been manufactured by this process since the
18th Century), last a way long time (150+ shots), and can be turned around to
the other end and used for another go.  The have them in the 1999 catalog on
page 277, in sizes from 3/8"  ($2.75) for small pistols to 1" ($5.95) for
muskets.  They also show Arkansas Flints on the same page and indicate they
last 250+ shots.     Hope this helps.  Barney Fife

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM History?
Date: 04 Mar 2000 20:14:39 -0700

Michael,
Hang on to them for a litle while longer, I realy don't want to send
negatives or prints across country. I am checking into what it would cost to
transfer them on to computer disc you might do the same where you are.
Another thing we will need is a writen discription of what you are sending
and what the caption might say by each photo.
Ole # 718
----------
>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM History?
>Date: Sat, Mar 4, 2000, 9:22 AM
>

>ole---
>may have some pictures of hawk bouerton and dale black and pappy horn at
>some of the early doins---know there is a picture of patty tweeking dale
>blacks mustash (SP) at the trail of tears and holding that flint hawkens
>and gritting his teeth---have a couple of pictures of pappy horn---pappy
>biggs and coon and mingo up in primative valley in friendship---next time
>i get to STL I will dig into the picture box and see what there is and if
>you want copies will forward them to you---also some pictures of Bill
>Large and dale shooting the Hawken match with coon in his finery off to
>the side
>
>there is several of don steith , dale balck ---dan anderson  silver fox
>and all at the boon shoot---and believe one at the hawken shoot with john
>beard--looking at dale blacks hawken---(the ugly flint one)---also some
>pictures of robert redford doing the jerimi johnson thing---dan has
>pictures of the first commeranitive L & C treck across Ill ---also have a
>bunch of pictures from the canoe trip down the misouri to st charles to
>the festival of the little hills---with the landing of the canoes---bunch
>of "S____ in that picture box"
>
>have to dig---send me a snail mail address and when i find them will send
>to you---
>
>
>    "HAWK"
>Michael Pierce
>854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
>Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
>e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
>site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
>
>________________________________________________________________
>YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
>Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
>Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM History?
Date: 04 Mar 2000 23:21:26 -0500

OLE#718
wilco-roger--if i finger out this new scanner we might be in luck---
you know me and these new fangeled schenery things---

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
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From: terry l landis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: traditions flintlock
Date: 24 Feb 2000 15:00:58 -0800

it sounds like your frizzen is ok. i would check the cock angle or the
curve of your frizzen.
also try shorter flints. i have a tvm flinter  and they changed the fly
in the newer locks  to accommodate a longer flint, but mine needs the
shorter one. so i knap them down and leave about an 1/8 in gap at half
cock. i have shot it a lot and i don't have to change flints very often.
hope this helps.
p/s: who said that size don't matter?
ymhs,
ephrim.

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Fur Price Help Needed
Date: 05 Mar 2000 12:37:49 EST

Hello list,
             In need of help.   Wife signed me up at my kid's school for
living
History day (Missouri).   Need to know the prices for beaver and other furs
from 1800-1840 when sold at Western Rendezvous compared to prices
received in St. Louis.    Would like prices to compare between both places.

Thank you.

rick
[e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fur Price Help Needed
Date: 05 Mar 2000 12:03:19 -0700

Rick,

Most mountain prices ranged from $3-5.  Depended on the year and company.
Can't recall prices at St. Louis right off, but $7 is what rings in my head.

Hope this helps.  Also, don't forget the transport charged from rendezvous
to St. Louis, that added up pretty substantially.

In A Majority of Scoudrels this is talked about, especially concerning Bill
Sublette in 1834.

Allen in Fort Hall country



At 12:37 PM 03/05/2000 EST, you wrote:
>Hello list,
>             In need of help.   Wife signed me up at my kid's school for
>living
>History day (Missouri).   Need to know the prices for beaver and other furs
>from 1800-1840 when sold at Western Rendezvous compared to prices
>received in St. Louis.    Would like prices to compare between both places.
>
>Thank you.
>
>rick
>[e-mail]
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fur Price Help Needed
Date: 05 Mar 2000 12:33:47 -0800

On Sun, 05 March 2000, Allen Hall wrote:

>
> Rick,
>
> Most mountain prices ranged from $3-5.  Depended on the year and company.
> Can't recall prices at St. Louis right off, but $7 is what rings in my head.
>
> Hope this helps.  Also, don't forget the transport charged from rendezvous
> to St. Louis, that added up pretty substantially.
>
> In A Majority of Scoudrels this is talked about, especially concerning Bill
> Sublette in 1834.
>
> Allen in Fort Hall country
>
>
>
> At 12:37 PM 03/05/2000 EST, you wrote:
> >Hello list,
> >             In need of help.   Wife signed me up at my kid's school for
> >living
> >History day (Missouri).   Need to know the prices for beaver and other furs
> >from 1800-1840 when sold at Western Rendezvous compared to prices
> >received in St. Louis.    Would like prices to compare between both places.
> >
> >Thank you.
> >
> >rick
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AN EXAMPLE OF HOW LATE THE TRADE WAS STILL GOING ON

We always think of St.Louis as being the hub of the fur trade, but there were other locations that did quite well, for example St. Paul, Minnesota took its fair share of the business, listed below is a list seen in the St.Paul Advertiser, a local newspaper.

 Animals          No. Skins      Value
 Rats              64,292      $11,572.56
 Minks              8,276       18,621.00
 Martens            1,428        3,570.00
 Fishers            1,045        4,702.50
 Red Fox              876        1,095.00
 Cross Fox             20          100.00
 Silver Fox             8          400.00
 Kit Fox            2,542        1,271.00
 Coons              3,400        2,550.00
 Wolverines         2,032        3,048.00
 Otter                405        1,417.50
 Beaver, lb..         586          881.00
 Bear                 610        6,700.00
 Lynx                  50          125.00
 Buffalo Robes      7,500       41,200.00
 Total Value                  $ 95,750.56

Now would you believe this was a poor year according to the Advertiser in 1856, a large amount of these furs were traded for in merchandise, the fur trade as we know it, was over, but trade guns, blanket's, cookware and anything else was still moving across this country.

Think of the amount of furs gathered in the hay day of the fur trade 1820's to 1840's, look for example at Ft.Union, a prime location and the amount of money that John Jacob Astor made is unbelievable, even by today's standards.

Hope this helps, the original list was part of a report that my Grandfather  had written for the Pennsylvania Game Commission (Legal Dept.)when an agent for them in 1938 this report was investing possible values on furs related to poaching. I gave this information; letters, reports, etc. to Charlie Hanson in the 1960's, he later wrote several articles using this information.

Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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From: Ronald Schrotter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: eyeglasses
Date: 05 Mar 2000 15:43:15 -0800 (PST)

Thanks to those who replied to my question about
eyeglass prices, but I already have a pair of period
glasses.  What I wanted to know is what a pair of
spectacles would have cost during the fur trade
period.Thanks again, Dog
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

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From: jerry derringer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alamo
Date: 05 Mar 2000 20:34:33 -0500

Hawk,
Thanks for the info on the Derringer rifle at the Alamo. Wished I knowed
that in 1970 when I was stationed at Lackland AFB for basic. I did go
there but was not interested in buckskinning or genealogy then. I have
done research on my surname & I have not found any direct connection to
Henry Deringer, my family line came over from Germany (1754) after
Henry's did.
If I am related, it is probably back in Germany sometime when dirt was
being formed into rocks.
JD


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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Dick James?
Date: 05 Mar 2000 19:16:29 -0700

Dick,
I hope you are out there, I don't have your e-mail address, please send it
to me privatly.
[e-mail]
Bye.
Ole # 718

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From: "jdearing" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the "Ice Man's" Fire kit.
Date: 03 Mar 2000 20:37:58 -0800


> Last week I saw an interesting show on the Ice Man and some of what he
> carried with him. (The Discovery channel) Seems he carried in his fire
> makins, iron pyrite, flint and a dried mushroom for char. They showed a
guy
> scrape shavings off the dried mushroom, pull into a mound, then strike =
the
> pyrite with the flint....and you guessed it, the mushroom caught and he=
ld
the
> sparks! Did anyone happen to hear what kind of mushroom that was? I nee=
d a
> couple....

I missed that show, but I have a little information on several types of
"tinder fungus"
that could have been in the ice man's fire kit. Here is what I have in my
files.

 Oh yeah, this file is comprised of messages from another list, so nothin=
g
is really
organized, just messages as they were originally posted.

 An interesting book that discuses tinder from fungi is Northern Bushcraf=
t
by Mors
Kochanski, published by Lone Pine Publishing. If you take the basidiocarp=
s
of fomes
fomentarius and pick apart the very top fibrous material, dry it and pull
apart the fibers
it will light with one spark very easily. This fibrous fungal mycelium se=
ems
to catch that
spark easily and then will smoulder for some time. Its only this very top
portion of the
fruiting body that works. The inonotus obliquus also burns well. there ar=
e
references
about its use for tinder but I do not think I have Seen information on it=
s
chemical properties.
 There is another fungus used by the Indians, used as a smudge. Once this=
 is
lighted it
will continue to burn completely for a long time. The same is true for th=
e
large puffballs.
It may be the fine fibrous characteristics of the mycelium allow it to bu=
rn
so well. In the
pacific Northwest, Inonotus and fomes are not common and this other fungu=
s,
Phaeolus,
was used. It probably has the same  textures as cotton  when dried and
after the mycelium
is pulled apart.


Phaeolus schweinitzii (Fries) Pat.
Ess. Taxon. Hym., p. 86. 1900.

Common Name: none
Sporocarp

     Fruiting body annual, typically stipitate on the ground from roots o=
f
trees; usually compound,
composed of several circular to irregularly lobed caps up to 25 cm broad;
flesh soft when fresh,
tough in age; surface densely hairy, smoother in age; color variable, cre=
am
to ochraceous, to yellow
or green-yellow when fresh, rusty-brown to dark brown in age; staining br=
own
to black; flesh
yellowish-brown, becoming dark rusty brown in age.

     Tubes
   Tube layer decurrent, greenish to rusty brown, up to 1.5 cm thick.

  Spores
 Spores 7-8 x 20-25 =B5m, ellipsoid to ovoid, hyaline, smooth.

  Habitat
 Solitary to gregarious near conifers, especially pine and Douglas fir;
lignicolous, but usually
appearing terrestrial; fruiting in the fall, but persisting throughout th=
e
season.

 Edibility: Possibly poisonous.

Comments:  Phaeolus schweinitzii causes a brown cubical rot of the heartw=
ood
of butt
and roots of living conifers. Although abhorred by foresters, it is highl=
y
esteemed by dye-
makers for coloring  yarn.


Lycoperdon perlatum Pers.: Pers.
Synops. Meth. Fung.: 145. 1801.

Common Name: Puffball
Sporocarp

     Fruit body 2-9 cm tall, 2-4 cm broad, subglobose to pyriforme to
elongated pyriforme,
at maturity with an apical pore for spore dispersal; ground color white t=
o
pallid to pale brown;
surface composed of conical spines, 1-2 mm tall, surrounded by a persiste=
nt
circular row of
warts; spines white to pallid to pale brown, leaving scars as they fall o=
ff.

     Sterile Base
Base well developed, forming a pseudostipe; spines and warts absent or mu=
ch
less prominent.

 Gleba
 Gleba white, firm; becoming soft and yellow, then brown to dark brown an=
d
powdery as spores mature.

Spores
Spores 3-4.5 =B5m, globose, verrucose. Spores in deposit yellow-brown to
olive-brown to
dark brown.

 Habitat: Solitary, scattered, gregarious, to clustered on ground;
widespread fall and winter.

Edibility:  Edible, but bland. Should be eaten only when young and firm w=
ith
the gleba
still pure white.

Comments:  Lycoperdon perlatum, our most common puffball, is easily
identified by its cream
to light tan color cap with an apical pore, conical spines which fall off=
 in
age leaving scars, and
well developed sterile base.



I like to report that this past weekend I got a burning coal from the
cracked cap polyporus (sp?) fungus as tinder, using natural flint (not
man made) and steel (old file, heated, shaped, quenched).  Are you
listening Andre?

This fire set belongs to a friend.  At first, I cut a thin slice of the
fungus, maybe 1/32 thick, placed it flat on top and next to the striking
edge of the flint.  I tried for about fifteen minutes without success,
whereupon my friend said the key is to cut as thin a slice of the fungus
as possible.  So I tried again with a thinner piece (thinner the better).
 A minute and many sparks later, one of the sparks caught on the edge of
the tinder and started to burn.  I tried again and got another coal,
again on the edge.

After thinking about it a bit, it makes a lot of sense to have a real
thin piece of tinder, so as not to have too much mass to "cool" the weak
sparks from the natural flint.  This is analogous to using small twigs (
instead of large branches), to spread the tinder bundle flame in starting
your camp fire.  The weak spark catches immediately on the edge of the
tinder as it comes off of the steel, no time for it to cool off.

So all you pyros out there, give it a try!  The cracked cap polyporus
fungus grows on dead black locusts, according to my friend.  It takes
much longer than charred cloth, possibly minutes instead of seconds, so
don't give up if it doesn't catch immediately.  If you can't find cracked
cap polyporus in your area, try other fungus using the same technique,
maybe it'll work, and please be sure to report your results to the list.


I'll send you a piece of the cracked cap polyporus fungus, scientific
name is Phellinus Rimosus per Barry Keegan.
For those of you who did not read the original post, I got an ember using
a thin slice of this UNCHARRED fungus with NATURAL flint and
high carbon steel.


True tinder fungus is also called sterile conk and is often found on birc=
h
trees.   It is not the mushroom-like growths on the birch, but a somewhat
less common growth that looks like a black mass with a rough surface. I
think it is a bacteria that causes this growth on trees that  seem short
for this world.   If you break this off the tree and dry it, split it ope=
n,
to reveal the porous light brown center, you will have about the best
medium for catching a spark that I have ever seen.   I have , with flint
and steel, always had certain success with it.  It is actually difficult =
to
put out, You have to either dowse with water or chip the coal out-however
if the spark touches any other part of the tinder it will easily spread (=
if
you have a good piece).
Once I had a bow drill fire that did not produce a good coal in the dust
created, but the corner off my wood on the ground board had a small ember
on the corner of the notch which I touched a piece of true tinder too and
instantly transferred the spark before it went out. The only tinder
comparable
may be charred cloth (but cloth is not a very natural alternative in my
opinion).



Just to make sure we are talking about the same thing; you want the
fluffy "suede-like", light-brown stuff?

1. Find the mushroom. I generally find it growing as a parasite on
birches. Make sure it is fresh, and firm, not soft and dead.

2. Carve off the hard outer layer, and separate the light brown layer
from the vertical pipes below. This is not as simple as it sounds, since
the hard layer is *hard* and fingers *are* endangered. I've been told
that soaking the mushroom in water will alleviate this problem, but has
not had a chance to try it myself yet. It is also supposed to smell
rather horrible while soaking...

3. Separate the tinder into suitable pieces, soak in lye (some say
boil in lye) or potassium nitrate (kaliumnitrate is you live in some
parts of the world). Work soft.


Ok Matt you wanted me to do this
first of all I have to admit that my knowledge in making tinder is more a
theoretical one. I used to trade the amount I need. In my part of the
country it is politically very incorrect to  make tinder from funghi as
this variety is protected by law ! But anyway you can steal them or smugg=
le
them in from foreign countries. (reminds me of my youth somehow :-)
Fomes formentarius is also called hoof-fungus and this is the best
characterisation. It is a grey sometimes greybrown hoofshaped fungus. The
lower side is lightbrown or grey, depends on your area. The more hoofshap=
ed
and the bigger - the better is the quality of your tinder. You can feel t=
he
quality as well if you press the living fungus on the tree. The surface i=
s
hard but the interior rather soft so it gives you the sensation of pressi=
ng
an old chokolatecake:-) Avoid the ones being harder inside.
If you want the real stoneage test, take some (oops whats the word -yeah)
potassiumlye (KOH)
drop it on and the fungus will turn darkred to brownred. If it turns red,
turn around look if there's someone near you, then run quickly a knife
between the fungus and the tree, twist it and the fungus will pop of. Go
and feel happy.
You have to clean the backside from dead wood and bark and then you will
see from top: the outer, hard protective grey layer, then the so called
yellow/light brown Trama (the tinder) with the withish core inside and th=
en
several layers of pores.
The trama comes in different qualities, but they all have the same light
brown colour similar to braintanned or fattanned leather. Best quality
means no work and easily ingitable. It is a fluffy substance and can be
torn apart just like the seeds of reed. Working fresh collected fungi mak=
es
life easier and and a lot more pleasant (uh what's that stinky thing in
your hands). But you can soften dry ones in water (uh what's that....).
Now cut of the trame with a sharp knife, the guys (and girls) I get my
tinder from prefer to cut fine sheets, as big as possible. The pores can =
be
thrown away at once. Now start gently pulling and softening the sheets,
making them bigger and bigger. In the end you have a rather clothlike
substance looking a bit like industraly produced leather. The softer and
the fluffier it is the easier it will catch a spark.
That's what I know about this procedure and part of this was contibuted b=
y
the PSG. Thanks.
If you want to improve the tinder, collect some of your urine in the
morning (before having your tea or coffee .-)  (old witches or young
virgins are maybe a good source too - if you're a more esotheric person
:-). Then soak the dried tinder with it and let it dry again. Soak it
several times, this will enrich some nitrit or nitrat in it. So it catche=
s
the spark better. I can tell you my neighbours hate me for doing this.
Next thing you need is a piece of marcassite or a very very fine grained
pyrite (which is the same). I get mine from other archaeologists, as the
pyrites you can buy in mineralshops, are beautyfull but useless, their
minerals are too big. The size and number of sparks depends on mass and
force, but you need a rather smooth stiking area on the ore. Any bigger
minerals will be torn of at once.
 Almost any hard stone (basalt, quarzit etc.) works as striker. I use lar=
ge
flintflakes to strike the marcassite. I strike with a downward movement a=
nd
quite a lot of force, just like I wanted to scrape the sparks from the or=
e.
Its the same movement you would strike a large match with. If you have on=
ly
smaller flakes you can set them in wooden hanles just like a big match.
You can find out better how to do it, if you try striking in the dark, bu=
t
take care of your fingers I know what I'm talking about :-) Even if these
sparks are smaller than those from steel/flint, the tinder catches them
more easily. I make a kind of nest on the ground or on my knee and hold t=
he
marcassite with my left hand over the nest, as near as possible. Then I
strike with the flake downwards, trying not to push the tinder away. Do i=
t
several times until one of the sparks creates a red point on your tinder,
stop, wait and be patient, let the glow grow. Voila that's it, now start
your fire and enjoy your mammothsteak.
By the way this method is 80'000 years old.



last message of the day on this--just looked at
the 1828 Webster's dictionary site that someone
posted on this list a few months back.  "Punk" was
a whore, but tinder led to sponge which led to:
"Pyrotechnical spunge, is made of mushrooms or
fungi, growing on old oaks, ash, fir, & c. which
are boiled in water, dried and beaten, then put in
a strong lye prepared with saltpeter, and again
dried in an oven.  This makes the black match or
tender brought from Germany."
I'm not sure what to make of all this, but it
appears that ca. 1828 fungi tender was highly
processed and was "brought from Germany."  Whose
area is that?  Were folks using imported punk/tinder?

Also there are some
mushrooms and symbiotic plants (a pacific northwest species is referred
to as candy canes) produce sulfur and magnesium. The last point I
should mention that these same plants were at once used by photographers
around the turn of the century to take the place of their flash powder.

Mix wood-ash with (hot) water, keep hot. Apart from the heating this is
the same as for when soaking hides for braintanning, and exactly the
same as for when preparing various lichens for eating.

> Are you just trying to raise the PH on the thing?  And how long do you
soak
> it for?

I never investigated the chemistry behind it, I just know that it work.
Last time I did a batch that worked nice ISTR I left it in for a couple
of hours.


the last ones I prepared I just cut into fine strips. Those
  strips were gently rubbed and torn between thumbs and indexfingers to
  stretch the strips considerably. This resulted in a leatherlike
appearence.
  Prepared in this way it doesn't need any chemical treatment to take a
  spark. If you want chemical treatment and you really are looking for
  something your neighbours will hate you for, you can pee on them and le=
t
it
  dry, then pee and dry...
  Another highly praised recipee is to use the pee of cows, which has to =
be
  aged for about 6 weeks or so, soak the tinder strips in it then let it
dry,
  soak again and dry again....
  Children's morning pee is said to be  very strong too, the effect might=
 be
  even highered if you happen to find a true virgin to pee on your tinder
:-)
  but don't get caught when making such avences...
  If you want it the european easy way, make a solution of nitrite salt u=
sed
  for salting meat, you can buy this at your local butcher. Soak the tind=
er
  and dry it, then soak it again then dry it again...
  I don't know if the ly makes any difference in your (Par) kind of
  treatment, didn't try that until now, maybe a winter project, hmm, but
  sorry to tell the naked truth a guy who works with me is professor at a=
n
  institute for testing materials and he found out that chemical treatmen=
t
is
  useless it won't higher the temperature for setting the tinder on fire,
  maybe it takes the spark a little easier due to a reaction of sulphur/
  nitrate or similar.



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fur Price Help Needed
Date: 05 Mar 2000 21:58:59 EST

Here's what I found in "The Canadians" book...
" The animal upon which the fur trade was built was the beaver, its hide,
sold in bulk by the pound, brought $3.50 American in 1801 prices. Furriers
gladly bid $6.40 per pelt at auction for sleek shiney otters, which they
transformed into magnificent coats. The fisher's soft fur, though in less
demand, fetched $1.60, while wildcat and wolverine each brought $2.40- the
latter to the delight of the woodsmen, for this beast was a notorious bait
stealer and trap wrecker. The handsome but small kit fox was worth only 40
cents, and at bottom was the ubiquitous snowshoe hare, valued at only pennies
since it often wound up as filling for quilts."

Ymos,
Steve

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: fungus
Date: 05 Mar 2000 20:05:04 -0700

If anyone has some fungus to sell, I would like to have it for my
scout troop and myself to try

Thanks
Joe

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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fur Price Help Needed
Date: 05 Mar 2000 20:33:40 -0500

At the height of the fur trade, they were going for as much as $6 per PRIME
plew.  At the end of the fur trade, they were going for as little as $2.50 a
plew, even for prime.

Ad Miller


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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alamo
Date: 06 Mar 2000 06:51:58 -0600

I read in a book, I believe it was titled "Swords and There Makers" by
Bezdek that Henry Derringer had changed his name. His original name was not
Henry Derringer he changed it after arriving to this country.

northwoods


-----Original Message-----


>Hawk,
>Thanks for the info on the Derringer rifle at the Alamo. Wished I knowed
>that in 1970 when I was stationed at Lackland AFB for basic. I did go
>there but was not interested in buckskinning or genealogy then. I have
>done research on my surname & I have not found any direct connection to
>Henry Deringer, my family line came over from Germany (1754) after
>Henry's did.
>If I am related, it is probably back in Germany sometime when dirt was
>being formed into rocks.
>JD
>
>
>----------------------
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>


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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: eyeglasses
Date: 06 Mar 2000 07:20:13 -0700

Dog,
The camp at Bridger, is the 17 through the 19 of March. I know you can do
it,
Ole # 718
----------
>From: Ronald Schrotter <[e-mail]>
>To: hist list <[e-mail]>
>Subject: MtMan-List: eyeglasses
>Date: Sun, Mar 5, 2000, 4:43 PM
>

>Thanks to those who replied to my question about
>eyeglass prices, but I already have a pair of period
>glasses.  What I wanted to know is what a pair of
>spectacles would have cost during the fur trade
>period.Thanks again, Dog
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
>http://im.yahoo.com
>
>----------------------
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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM History?
Date: 06 Mar 2000 10:03:05 -0500

Although not an AMM member, I'd love to have a copy for historical
reference.

Ad Miller

> Just as an un scientific survey, how many brothers would be willing to
> purchase a copy of the AMM History which would include pictures of early
> members,camps and other events and a writen history of the organization?
> Ole # 718



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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: flintlock and flints
Date: 06 Mar 2000 09:18:03 -0600

Tim
    I also suspect the cock angle might be part of your problem. I don't
think this is something that can be solved via this list. Hands on
inspection by an experienced flinter is what you need.
    As to the claims about Arkansas cut flints. I might lose my Arkansas
citizenship by saying this, but to be honest I have found them to be pretty
lousy sparkers. They have been sold for a long time so someone might like
them but my results are completely unsatisfactory.  Stick with the German or
Pennsylvania agate.
    In support of my state, our whetstones are the best anywhere. And you
can sometimes find natural irregular shapes for sale that would be
'authentic' anywhere. Sharpen just as well but are not purty perfect
rectangles.
Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alamo
Date: 06 Mar 2000 10:10:50 -0500

JD----
there was about 8 or 10 gunmakers named derringer and spelled colse or
similar---you might want to check that out---most in the philidelphia
area---a german influence area---

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp fare
Date: 06 Mar 2000 09:20:39 -0700

Hello Crazy Cyot,

Thanks for the useful observation, "It appears Walt must have got his camps
confused."  Working off memory does get me "a bit muddled sometimes."  But
it is clear water in camp now.   Thanks for the helping hand across the camp
fire.

For those of us following this thread it is Thistle.  The correct answer to
the Cache Valley Camp and the 10 day span of root eating causing the pot to
need to be greased.   I will post the winner on the orginial submission.  It
is time dated so the reader can see things are on the up and up as far as I
am concerned.

There is a light rain this morning.  The last 3 days have been spring warm.
I spent saturday pitching a  Crow Lodge.  Memory came into play again as I
muddled through it ok but it took me about 2.5 times as long as it should.

Thanks again.

Walt
Park City, Montana


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2000 1:34 PM


> Hello in the camp
>  It appears Walt must have got his camps confused. Because it was in Cache
> Valley that they lived chiefly upon roots for ten day. They killed two fat
> Grizzly Bear April 12 at bout 4 oclk. Our Camp Kettles had not been
greased
> for some time: as we were continually boiling thistle roots in them during
> the day: Page 9 Journal of a Trapper By Osborne Russell. It appears they
> lived quit well in the rocky mountain collage camp as far as food went.
But
> sure did have a lot of trouble with them Black Foots. Its OK Walt If your
> like me you've read so much over the years it gets abit muddled sometimes.
> Cattails would have been a good guess and probably was one of the roots
> boiled in them pots for there are a lot of cattails in Cash Valley and
they
> are one of the roots that can be dug and used at all times of the year.
The
> type of thistle they used would have been either Leafy thistle also known
as
> elk thistle, Drummond's thistle, or Rocky Mountain Celery. The other type
of
> thistle they could have used was Platte thistle for both these thistles
are
> native species to the Rockies and are found in Cash Valley.
>                                                      Keep your nose to the
> ground
>                                                     and who knows what you
> find to eat.
>                                                          crazy Cyot
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alamo
Date: 06 Mar 2000 16:10:36 -0600


-----Original Message-----


>JD----
>there was about 8 or 10 gunmakers named derringer and spelled colse or
>similar---you might want to check that out---most in the philidelphia
>area---a german influence area---



The Henry Derringer from Philidelphia of rifle, pistol, sword manufacturing
fame was the maker I was reffering to. After he emigrated to the U.S. from
Germany he changed his name to Derringer. Thats what is stated in the book
Swords and Sword Makers  by Bezdek.


>    "HAWK"
>Michael Pierce
>854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
>Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
>e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
>site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
>
>________________________________________________________________
>YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
>Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
>Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
>----------------------
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>


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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alamo
Date: 06 Mar 2000 18:07:30 -0800

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Guys, have I skipped a groove, or is the rifle in the back of the chapel =
in a glass case a Jacob Dickert ?  Are we thinking of the same rifle ?
LP
    -----Original Message-----
    From: jerry derringer <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Sunday, March 05, 2000 5:34 PM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alamo
   =20
   =20
    Hawk,
    Thanks for the info on the Derringer rifle at the Alamo. Wished I =
knowed
    that in 1970 when I was stationed at Lackland AFB for basic. I did =
go
    there but was not interested in buckskinning or genealogy then. I =
have
    done research on my surname & I have not found any direct connection =
to
    Henry Deringer, my family line came over from Germany (1754) after
    Henry's did.
    If I am related, it is probably back in Germany sometime when dirt =
was
    being formed into rocks.
    JD
   =20
   =20
    ----------------------
    hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Guys, have I skipped a groove, or is =
the rifle=20
in the back of the chapel in a glass case a Jacob Dickert ?  Are we =

thinking of the same rifle ?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
size=3D2>LP</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>jerry derringer <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>To: =
</B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Sunday, March 05, 2000 5:34 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: =
MtMan-List:=20
    Alamo<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>Hawk,<BR>Thanks for the info on the =
Derringer=20
    rifle at the Alamo. Wished I knowed<BR>that in 1970 when I was =
stationed at=20
    Lackland AFB for basic. I did go<BR>there but was not interested in=20
    buckskinning or genealogy then. I have<BR>done research on my =
surname &=20
    I have not found any direct connection to<BR>Henry Deringer, my =
family line=20
    came over from Germany (1754) after<BR>Henry's did.<BR>If I am =
related, it=20
    is probably back in Germany sometime when dirt was<BR>being formed =
into=20
    rocks.<BR>JD<BR><BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text list =
info: <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xm=
ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: Steve M <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM History?
Date: 06 Mar 2000 16:45:34 -0800

You can count me in brother.

Steve"boatkiller"McGehee
AMM1663


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From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Trade Blanket sites OFF TOPIC
Date: 06 Mar 2000 18:13:34 -0800

Well it happened again, I lost my "bookmarks", need the three (3) trader blankets we where talking about last summer, one was the Baker Party site, etc.

Thanks

Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp fare
Date: 06 Mar 2000 22:07:19 EST

You're lucky I was out of town.  I would have nailed the answer dead center.
It's sure enough in Russell's "Journal of a Trapper."

I describe Russell's experience in my book, "Across the Seasons" like this:

. . . . "In the mountains, sometimes there's not much to choose from.  You
eat what you can get and often don't ask who's cookint it, what it is, and
where it come from.  I've been so hungry that I've gotten up in the middle of
the night and roasted more meat if I had it.  One March the snow was so deep
and the area was so destitute of game that we had to live chiefly on thistle
roots for ten days.  But I've found, to be acquainted with misery contributes
to the enjoyment of happiness."



Laura Glise
[e-mail]

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From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: AMM History
Date: 06 Mar 2000 22:01:17 -0500 (EST)

would also like a copy, if its ok with all the full fledged membership,
since i'm only an associate member.   would like to know if any
biathalon events (i.e., olympic type run & shoot events) have occurred
past or present in any manner.

from Michigan


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From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: Article of Interest in local paper
Date: 06 Mar 2000 22:44:05 -0500 (EST)


Detroit News, Friday, March 03, 2000, p.4C

Jim Miller is a woodsman who teaches making items from birch bark,
including the canoe in the background. "If you learn to use the natural
resources of the earth, you will better appreciate, care for and protect
those things," he says. "The more you learn about using these things,
the more you'll see the beauty of those things."
Miller offers various one- to 10-day workshops and seminars for adults
and students in grades K-12. For information, call [phone].
=A0=A0=A0
By Kortney Stringer
=A0=A0=A0  NOVI -- Eleven years ago, Jim Miller traded in all his
three-piece business suits for deer-hide moccasins, bobcat scarves,
beaver mittens and walrus-tooth necklaces.
=A0=A0=A0"I came in one day after 17 years at my job and told my boss
this is something I wanted to do and he understood," said the Mikado,
Mich., resident. "I learned that I can get all the things I need from
around me and in the process I learned self-reliance."
=A0=A0=A0The former salesman used his love for nature and wildlife to
become a traditional outdoorsman. Now he is one of the nation's foremost
leaders in the study and application of traditional skills and crafts.
=A0=A0=A0Miller is demonstrating his craft this week at the Sport and
Travel Show at the Novi Expo Center.
=A0=A0=A0The Port Huron native uses everything from wild game and plant
fibers to tree barks and rocks to make household items, clothing and
shoes. His creations include a buffalo sleeping roll, birch bark baskets
and elk rugs.
=A0=A0=A0Miller takes nothing on earth for granted, including those
things others would throw away. He rubs sticks together to make fire,
mixes deer fat and tree sap to make glue and makes warm clothing out of
roadkill.
=A0=A0=A0His methods might seem primitive to some, but Miller says it's
important to study how people lived before there were high-tech
computers and large manufacturing plants.
=A0=A0=A0"If you learn to use the natural resources of the earth, you
will better appreciate, care for and protect those things," he said.
"The more you learn about using these things, the more you'll see the
beauty of those things."
=A0=A0=A0To spread his philosophy, Miller spends a lot of his time
teaching people techniques for using the earth's natural resources
through workshops and seminars. He has also written a book, "Brain Tan
Buffalo Robes, Skins and Pelts," which focuses on his all-natural method
of producing buckskin by using deer brain fluids instead of chemicals.
=A0=A0=A0"Red, white, black or brown, we all have a common thread in
that our ancestors all had to do the same things to survive," Miller
said. "If you look and see how our ancestors lived, you'll see that we
all need each other and we need the earth. If you can understand that we
need the earth, you'll learn to use it and you'll never abuse it."
=A0=A0=A0
Kortney Stringer is a Metro Detroit free-lance writer.


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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Article of Interest in local paper
Date: 06 Mar 2000 23:18:05 -0500

Damn... I envy the Lad....

Ad Miller


NOVI -- Eleven years ago, Jim Miller traded in all his
three-piece business suits for deer-hide moccasins, bobcat scarves,
beaver mittens and walrus-tooth necklaces.



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alamo
Date: 07 Mar 2000 01:24:04 -0500

larry
yes there is a dickert on display also usto be a deringer  there but it
was up front been several years since i was there---just remember the
deringer because i have one---

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce



On Mon, 6 Mar 2000 18:07:30 -0800 "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
writes:
> Guys, have I skipped a groove, or is the rifle in the back of the
> chapel in a glass case a Jacob Dickert ?  Are we thinking of the
> same rifle ?
> LP

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM History
Date: 07 Mar 2000 02:55:33 EST

Jon
I don't know if I am the best person to answer your Question but I'll give it
a try. As for the history of the AMM the project is just getting started so
its out come is down the road aways. As for the biathlon events, Olympic type
runs and shooting events. There has been some shooting at the mark, horse
rases, foot rases and what not at some the nationals and other camps but that
is not what we are about. The best prize for a man for his shootin is to
bring meat in to camp at the end of a days hunt. Biathlon type events how
about packin up your horse and take off from New Mexico and ridin to Canada.
Or going out with nothing but your bed roll, a knife, gun, and cup or pot and
liven off the land for five days or longer. These are the types of events
that I hold in high regard. It's not the games we play but the thing we do
that count.
                                                       See ya on the trail
                                                        Crazy Cyot
                                                       #1741

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From: Marc Stewart <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: crockett's rifle
Date: 07 Mar 2000 06:42:41 -0500

As long as the Alamo is being talked about somewhat, I too, have a
question..I was given a replica of David Crocketts 41 cal. caplock
nicknamed "betsy". It was given to Crockett in 1822 and is rumored to be
the rifle that he carried with him to Texas. I'm trying to get more
information on the rifle and can only find vague refrences to it. Does
anyone have a good source for info on it? My gun, by the way, was put
out by the Franklin mint...Yes, the plate people..Thanks in advance.
             marc "swiftwater" stewart

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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM History
Date: 07 Mar 2000 09:04:01 -0800

Crazy Cyot,

Damn fine answer Brother. Mind if I file it away for future ref. ? <G> The
AMM Western 2000 this summer will have some shooting opportunities and
horsing around opportunities to help fill the week of just getting on the
ground with Brothers and friends but I sure like your reminder of what this
is all about. Hope to see you this summer. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
#1719
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2000 11:55 PM


> Jon
> I don't know if I am the best person to answer your Question but I'll give
it
> a try. As for the history of the AMM the project is just getting started
so
> its out come is down the road aways. As for the biathlon events, Olympic
type
> runs and shooting events. There has been some shooting at the mark, horse
> rases, foot rases and what not at some the nationals and other camps but
that
> is not what we are about. The best prize for a man for his shootin is to
> bring meat in to camp at the end of a days hunt. Biathlon type events how
> about packin up your horse and take off from New Mexico and ridin to
Canada.
> Or going out with nothing but your bed roll, a knife, gun, and cup or pot
and
> liven off the land for five days or longer. These are the types of events
> that I hold in high regard. It's not the games we play but the thing we do
> that count.
>                                                        See ya on the trail
>                                                         Crazy Cyot
>                                                        #1741
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Rusty Blades
Date: 06 Mar 2000 09:22:15 -0700

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Hullo the fire:

Over the weekend I hammered out a skinning knife from an old file. After =
tempering it, I pushed the tang into an antler handle. Then I started to =
wonder about rust. The exposed blade will be bad enough but it will be =
worse down the tang. Should I worry about it, or jus let it go? Or can =
someone on the list give me a better idea?=20

Hugs and Kisses

er I mean

YMOS

WY


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<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<P>Hullo the fire:</P>
<P>Over the weekend I hammered out a skinning knife from an old file. =
After=20
tempering it, I pushed the tang into an antler handle. Then I started to =
wonder=20
about rust. The exposed blade will be bad enough but it will be worse =
down the=20
tang. Should I worry about it, or jus let it go? Or can someone on the =
list give=20
me a better idea? </P>
<P>Hugs and Kisses</P>
<P>er I mean</P>
<P>YMOS</P>
<P>WY</P></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Rusty Blades
Date: 07 Mar 2000 06:45:23 -0700

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Hullo the fire:

Over the weekend I hammered out a skinning knife from an old file. After =
tempering it, I pushed the tang into an antler handle. Then I started to =
wonder about rust. The exposed blade will be bad enough but it will be =
worse down the tang. Should I worry about it, or jus let it go? Or can =
someone on the list give me a better idea?=20

Hugs and Kisses

er I mean

YMOS

WY


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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<DIV>
<P>Hullo the fire:</P>
<P>Over the weekend I hammered out a skinning knife from an old file. =
After=20
tempering it, I pushed the tang into an antler handle. Then I started to =
wonder=20
about rust. The exposed blade will be bad enough but it will be worse =
down the=20
tang. Should I worry about it, or jus let it go? Or can someone on the =
list give=20
me a better idea? </P>
<P>Hugs and Kisses</P>
<P>er I mean</P>
<P>YMOS</P>
<P>WY</P></DIV></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rusty Blades
Date: 07 Mar 2000 22:00:35 -0500

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Don't worry about it.. Seal the antler at the tang with bees wax & =
pitch..
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Wynn & Gretchen Ormond=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Monday, March 06, 2000 11:22 AM
  Subject: MtMan-List: Rusty Blades


  Hullo the fire:

  Over the weekend I hammered out a skinning knife from an old file. =
After tempering it, I pushed the tang into an antler handle. Then I =
started to wonder about rust. The exposed blade will be bad enough but =
it will be worse down the tang. Should I worry about it, or jus let it =
go? Or can someone on the list give me a better idea?=20

  Hugs and Kisses

  er I mean

  YMOS

  WY


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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Don't worry about it.. Seal the antler =
at the tang=20
with bees wax & pitch..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>D</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math=20
e"<BR>          DOUBLE EDGE =

FORGE<BR>  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements<BR>   =
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<=
/A><BR> =20
"Knowing how is just the beginning"<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" =
title=[e-mail]>Wynn &=20
  Gretchen Ormond</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 06, 2000 =
11:22=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Rusty =
Blades</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P>Hullo the fire:</P>
  <P>Over the weekend I hammered out a skinning knife from an old file. =
After=20
  tempering it, I pushed the tang into an antler handle. Then I started =
to=20
  wonder about rust. The exposed blade will be bad enough but it will be =
worse=20
  down the tang. Should I worry about it, or jus let it go? Or can =
someone on=20
  the list give me a better idea? </P>
  <P>Hugs and Kisses</P>
  <P>er I mean</P>
  <P>YMOS</P>
  <P>WY</P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: tom roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM History?
Date: 07 Mar 2000 22:18:35 -0500

Yes, likely I would.  To what purpose the proceeds?

Tom

"Ole B. Jensen" wrote:

> Hello the Camp!
> Just as an un scientific survey, how many brothers would be willing to
> purchase a copy of the AMM History which would include pictures of early
> members,camps and other events and a writen history of the organization?
> Ole # 718
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM History?
Date: 08 Mar 2000 08:00:07 -0700

Tom,
What ever the leadership thinks it should go too.
Ole # 718
----------
>From: tom roberts <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM History?
>Date: Tue, Mar 7, 2000, 8:18 PM
>

>Yes, likely I would.  To what purpose the proceeds?
>
>Tom
>
>"Ole B. Jensen" wrote:
>
>> Hello the Camp!
>> Just as an un scientific survey, how many brothers would be willing to
>> purchase a copy of the AMM History which would include pictures of early
>> members,camps and other events and a writen history of the organization?
>> Ole # 718
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Dennis Mulford
Date: 08 Mar 2000 08:58:44 -0700

Hello the Camp'
I am looking for Dennis Mulford, he is an old freind I have lost touch with.
Excelent gun builder too.
Ole # 718

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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: American Fur Company Forts?
Date: 08 Mar 2000 09:01:41 -0700

Hello the Camp'
I need a litle help, could one of you send me the location of all the
traping forts west of St Louis from 1800 to 1845 so that I can transfer it
to my chronological map.
Ole # 718

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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: knives
Date: 08 Mar 2000 10:41:43 -0600

    More than fifty years ago, when I was just a bit of a child, I made a
couple knives with antler handles. One was from a found blade that I
reshaped on a grinder the other from a file that I reshaped on a grinder
without heating, detempering or anything. I was a kid, what did I know?
Ruint the grinder wheel, got Pop real mad.
    Drilled out a hole in the antler and fixed the blades in with hot hide
glue. They are still solidly fixed and blades not rusty but have naturally
darkened with age and use.
    The depressing thing is to realize that those knives are now so old as
to be almost antiques.
Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas


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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: material used in the making of 18th Century Sails
Date: 08 Mar 2000 13:32:51 -0800

Friends,

A few months back we got into a discussion dealing with what the appropriate
material might be for the making of tentage. Speculation ran from cotton to
linen. It was suggested that tentage might have been made from old sail
cloth, therefore what was sail cloth made from?

I contacted the USS Constitution staff and after much waiting got back a
copy of my original post to them with no answer. I recently reasked the
question and got back "I think it was cotton but not sure. Ask the Museum".
I went to the museum web page and under FAQ's got this information about
construction materials.

Apparently, at least as far as this ship was concerned, the sails were made
of flax woven in RI. If you can afford Linen (or flax fibers woven into
cloth) made into a tent or leanto shelter, you will be quit authentic. The
web site url is:


http://www.ussconstitutionmuseum.org/faq/materials.html


Enjoy. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

. Keel
                                White Oak New Jersey
                     Hull
                                White Oak knees
                                                Kennebec Valley, Maine (MA
until 1820)
                     Parts
                                White Oak planking
                                                Abington, MA
                                                Merrimac Valley, MA
                                                Kennebec Valley, Maine (MA
until 1820)
                                Live Oak frames
                                                Coastal Georgia Islands:
Blackbeard
                                                Island, Blythe Island,
                                                Grover Island, Sea Island,
St. Simons.
                                Yellow Pine
                                                South Carolina and Georgia
                                White Pine
                                                New Hampshire
                     Masts
                                White Pine
                                                Unity, Maine (MA until 1820)
                     Sails
                                Flax-grown in RI
                                                Sewn at Granary Building,
Boston, MA
                     Rigging
                                Tarred Hemp
                                                Made in Boston, MA

                    Copper Composition

                                                Boston, MA (Paul Revere
Foundry)
                         Castings
                         Spikes
                         Bolts


                    Copper Hull Sheathing

                                                Imported from England by
Paul Revere


               For further reading:

               Marden, Luis. "Restoring Old Ironsides." National Geographic
191, no. 6 (June 1997):
               38-53.

               Martin, Tyrone G. A Most Fortunate Ship. Annapolis, Maryland:
The Naval Institute
               Press, 1997.

               Triber, Jayne E. A True Republican: The Life of Paul Revere.
Amherst, MA:
               University of Massachusetts Press, 1998.

               Wood, Virginia Steele. Live Oaking: Southern Timber for Tall
Ships. Annapolis,
               Maryland: The Naval Institute Press, 1995



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From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: American Fur Company Forts?
Date: 08 Mar 2000 16:26:19 -0600

Ole,

How about Fort Osage.=A0 There's one for you.=A0 About 200 miles West of the
Mississippi on the high banks of the Missouri River.

<http://lewisandclark.missouri.org/Independence.htm>http://lewisandclark.mi
ssouri.org/Independence.htm

Don't believe everything you read on the above linked web page.=A0=20

John...



At 09:01 AM 3/8/00 -0700, you wrote:
>Hello the Camp'
>I need a litle help, could one of you send me the location of all the
>traping forts west of St Louis from 1800 to 1845 so that I can transfer it
>to my chronological map.
>Ole # 718
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info:
<http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html>http://www.xmission.com/
~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: American Fur Company Forts?
Date: 08 Mar 2000 15:23:25 -0800

Ole,

If they fit (sorry I can't give you any dates), on the Columbia R. there
was:
Ft. Clatsop; L&C, Ft. Astoria,  at the mouth of the Columbia.

Ft. Vancouver, across from the mouth of the Willamette R.
Ft. Henrietta up the Umatilla R. (not sure it fits into the fur trade era
though)
Ft. Nez Perce at the mouth of the Walla Walla R.
Ft. ? just up stream from present day Richland Wa. on the east bank of the
Columbia, HBC post.
Ft. Okanogan at the mouth of the Okanogan R. on the north bank of the Col.
Spokane House up the Spokane R. from its entry to the Col.
Ft. Hall up the Snake R. ,

Can't think of any other ones in my area right off other than Ft. Nisqually
on Puget Sound down around Tacoma.
Like I said, I don't have dates and affiliations though most were HBC or
NWCo. Hope that helps some. I remain...

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Hudson Bay Company Forts?
Date: 08 Mar 2000 17:23:47 -0700

Hello the camp!
When I sen't out my last question concerning forts primarily built for the
fur trade, I forgot to include forts built by Hudson Bay Company and any
others. So if anyone has knowledge where these forts were please post them
as soon as you can.
YMOS
Ole # 718

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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hudson Bay Company Forts?
Date: 08 Mar 2000 18:45:16 -0600

Ole, Do you want a list of any and all fur trade forts? Do you need the
locations also? Tell me what you need I have some references handy.

northwoods

-----Original Message-----


>Hello the camp!
>When I sen't out my last question concerning forts primarily built for the
>fur trade, I forgot to include forts built by Hudson Bay Company and any
>others. So if anyone has knowledge where these forts were please post them
>as soon as you can.
>YMOS
>Ole # 718
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hudson Bay Company Forts?
Date: 08 Mar 2000 20:19:59 -0700

Yes!
Ole
----------
>From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hudson Bay Company Forts?
>Date: Wed, Mar 8, 2000, 5:45 PM
>

>Ole, Do you want a list of any and all fur trade forts? Do you need the
>locations also? Tell me what you need I have some references handy.
>
>northwoods
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ole B. Jensen <[e-mail]>
>To: hist_text <[e-mail]>
>Date: March 08, 2000 6:26 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Hudson Bay Company Forts?
>
>
>>Hello the camp!
>>When I sen't out my last question concerning forts primarily built for the
>>fur trade, I forgot to include forts built by Hudson Bay Company and any
>>others. So if anyone has knowledge where these forts were please post them
>>as soon as you can.
>>YMOS
>>Ole # 718
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: American Fur Company Forts?
Date: 08 Mar 2000 21:31:00 -0700

Hello Ole,
Two AFC trading post/forts are Fort Union Trading Post 1828 and the AFC post
near Ft. Laramie, Wyoming which I am less familar with.
Walt
Park City, Montana


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hudson Bay Company Forts?
Date: 09 Mar 2000 02:16:52 EST

A SHORT LIST OF COLORADO FUR TRADE-ERA FORTS

Fort Davy Crockett (aka Ft. Misery)- Brown's Hole
Fort Uncompahgre (aka Robidoux)- on Gunnison R. near present Delta, CO
Bent's Fort (aka William's Ft.)- on Arkansas R. near present La Junta, CO,
1833
Gantt's Fort- on Arkansas R. upstream from Bent's, built 1832
Fort Vasquez- on S Platte R. near present Platteville, CO
Fort Lupton- on S Platte R., built 1839
Fort Jackson- on S Platte near present Ione, built by Fraeb and PA Sarpy,
partially financed by Amer. Fur Co., 1837
Ft. St. Vrain (aka Ft. Lookout, aka Ft. George)- on S. Platte, 6 mi. NW of
present Platteville, built by Bent, St. Vrain & Co. in response to Ft.
Jackson.
The preceding info came from Ubbelholde, COLORADO HISTORY (Boulder, 1995).

The Bent's also had less elaborate (sometimes temporary) stockades at the
mouth of Fountain Ck. (or possibly upriver at the mouth of Huerfano Ck.),
near present Pueblo, CO, winter 1829-30; they also had a post on Kiowa Ck. SW
of present Denver, CO; and a post in the San Luis Valley S of present Ft.
Garland, CO.

John R. Sweet
Palmer Lk., CO

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From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM History?
Date: 09 Mar 2000 06:15:49 -0800 (PST)

I definitely would!

Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488


At 08:26 AM 03/03/2000 -0700, you wrote:
>Hello the Camp!
>Just as an un scientific survey, how many brothers would be willing to
>purchase a copy of the AMM History which would include pictures of early
>members,camps and other events and a writen history of the organization?
>Ole # 718
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


----------------------
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From: "John McKee" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Must see TV
Date: 09 Mar 2000 19:25:00 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF89FD.29949DC0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    For those of you with a satellite dish, there is a movie on the AMC =
channel { f4-1 } tomorrow  { Friday } night  at 8:00 p.m. eastern { 7 =
central  } called The Far Horizons (1955) Fred MacMurray and Charlton =
Heston as Lewis and Clark.  "Action" picture rated two stars. Might be =
interesting to see how far we really have come!=20

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF89FD.29949DC0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D2>    For =
those of you=20
with a satellite dish, there is a movie on the AMC channel { f4-1 }=20
tomorrow  { Friday } night  at 8:00 p.m. eastern { 7 =
central  }=20
called The Far Horizons (1955) Fred MacMurray and Charlton Heston =
as Lewis=20
and Clark.  "Action" picture rated two stars. Might be interesting =
to see=20
how far we really have come! </FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF89FD.29949DC0--


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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Saddle Soap ?
Date: 09 Mar 2000 21:49:12 -0800

Hey Folks !
  How far back in history does Saddle Soap go ?
Pendleton


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From: Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: fur prices
Date: 09 Mar 2000 20:47:06 -0700

>From: [e-mail]
>Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 12:38:26 EST

>Also,  could you please post the following message to the list for me.
>Thanks!
>Rick Petzoldt
>Traphand
>***************************************************************************
***
>**************
>Hello list,
>             In need of help.   Wife signed me up at my kid's school for
>living
>History day (Missouri).   Need to know the prices for beaver and other furs
>from 1800-1840 when sold at Western Rendezvous compared to prices
>received in St. Louis.    Would like prices to compare between both places.
>
>Thank you.
>
>rick
>[e-mail]
>

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From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: La Purisima Mission Pottery
Date: 09 Mar 2000 20:19:59 -0800 (PST)

Hi Ralph,

The description is exactly correct, except for one thing, the mission was at
a different site.  The pottery that Tony gave you came from the new site
where the mission was rebuilt.  That probably comes from the trash site
where broken items were discarded.  The blue and white earthware pottery you
have described was definitely in existance, but would have been rare in the
mountains.  I believe Stewart had some and there are definitely records of
this type of china at various forts, but I doubt if it would have been
carried out on a regular basis.  If you want more info, give me a holler off
line or come see us at the mission when the AMM will be there March 24 & 25.

Hope this info helps and hopefully see you at Hart Canyon.

Best Regards,

Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488

At 12:03 AM 03/04/2000 EST, you wrote:
>WOW, talk about answering your own question....
> <A HREF=3D"http://best1.net/lapurisima/Pottery.html">Welcome to Mission La=
=20
>Purisima Concepcion</A>=20
>
>La Purisima Mission=20
>Granary/Warehouse Site Excavation
>Glenn J. Farris
>Associate State Archaeologist
>"...The few pieces of ceramics found were of the expected Chinese Export=20
>porcelain and English transferprint wares." =20
>
>The 1812 Santa Barbara Earthquake: Mission La Purisima (which housed a=20
>Pottery Shop) The extraordinary and horrible earthquake, which this Mission=
=20
>suffered on the memorable day of the glorious Apostle St. Thomas, entirely=
=20
>destroyed the church and vestry, buried under the walls the various images=
=20
>and paintings, and ruined the greater part of the furniture. ... Some of=
 the=20
>work shops went down ... .=20
>-report of Fathers Pay=E9ras and Ripoll, December 31, 1812
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Winship Brothers
Date: 10 Mar 2000 00:09:53 EST

Can anyone point me to a starting place for study of the Winship brothers.

Tom Laidlaw, web coordinator for <A
HREF="http://rutnut.com/octa/store/front.htm">OCTA's On-line Bookstore</A>

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From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Must see TV
Date: 09 Mar 2000 21:30:20 -0800 (PST)

John,

I have seen this movie before and it is quite interesting because about the
only thing correct in it is the fact that Lewis and Clark formed the Corps
of Discovery.  The rest is pretty Hollywoody and a fictional story.  It
shows all their fights with the Indians (of which there was only one) and
has a lot of stuff that never happened.  Just goes to show you how Hollywood
can change a true story into a fairytale.

Best Regards,

Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488


At 07:25 PM 03/09/2000 -0600, you wrote:
>    For those of you with a satellite dish, there is a movie on the AMC
channel { f4-1 } tomorrow  { Friday } night  at 8:00 p.m. eastern { 7
central  } called The Far Horizons (1955) Fred MacMurray and Charlton Heston
as Lewis and Clark.  "Action" picture rated two stars. Might be interesting
to see how far we really have come!
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
><HTML><HEAD>
><META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv=Content-Type>
><META content="MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=GENERATOR>
><STYLE></STYLE>
></HEAD>
><BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
><DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" size=2>    For those of you
>with a satellite dish, there is a movie on the AMC channel { f4-1 }
>tomorrow  { Friday } night  at 8:00 p.m. eastern { 7 central  }
>called The Far Horizons (1955) Fred MacMurray and Charlton Heston as
Lewis
>and Clark.  "Action" picture rated two stars. Might be interesting to see
>how far we really have come! </FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Winship Brothers
Date: 10 Mar 2000 01:51:11 EST

Tom, I ran Winship Brothers using Copernic2000 (EVERYONE TAKE NOTE: this is
an incredible search tool available for free at www.copernic.com) and came up
with the following links. I havent checked each one, but I hope this helps in
your endeavor. Barney Fife <A
HREF="http://www.redwoodvisitor.org/media/history.htm">Untitled Document</A>
<A
HREF="http://arcweb.sos.state.or.us/OregonTour/Tourhtml/PortlandAstoria.html">
Across Oregon 1940 Tour - Portland-Astoria</A>  <A
HREF="http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/diary_of_mad_cook/22792">MY SON THE
BOOKKEEPER - Suite101.com</A>  <A
HREF="http://www.rootsweb.com/~orgenweb/impdates.html">ORGenWeb - Important
Dates in History</A>  <A HREF="http://ccrh.org/bib/furtrade.html">CCRH
Furtrade Bibliography Reference List</A>

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From: Frans Jurgens <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddle Soap ?
Date: 10 Mar 2000 08:10:45 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------29478B6AE83B69805FB766E9
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

How far back do saddle's go? Bet the answers are similiar.




larry pendleton wrote:

> Hey Folks !
>   How far back in history does Saddle Soap go ?
> Pendleton
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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adr;dom:;;74 South Main St.;Canandaigua;NY;14424;
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x-mozilla-html:FALSE
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email;internet:[e-mail]
tel;fax:[phone]
tel;work:716-396-9850
x-mozilla-cpt:;0
fn:Frans Jurgens
end:vcard

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From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Fur Trade Forts
Date: 10 Mar 2000 06:11:19 -0800

Ole,

Here's some information that may help in your quest for fur trade sites and forts. I've included address of some along with publications and organizations that may have additional information to help you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Pre-1840 Living History Historical Sites:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fort Bridger, Wyoming State Historic Site * PO Box 35, Fort Bridger, WY 82933 * (307)
782-3842, FAX [phone] * Established in 1843 by Jim Bridger and Louis Vasquez.

Fort Langley National Historic Site * PO Box 129, 23433 Mavis Ave., Fort Langley, BC, Canada  * [phone] * Original Fur Trade Era building c. 1840.

Fort Laramie National Historic Site, NPS * Fort Laramie, WY 82212 * [phone] * Fort
Laramie was originally established as Fort William, by William Sublette, in 1834.

Fort Nisqually Historic Site, 1833-1869 * Point Defiance Park, 5400 Pearl St. #11, Tacoma, WA 98407 * [phone] * Fort Nisqually was built by the Hudson's Bay Company as an outpost for fur trade.

Fort Uncompahgre-A Living History Museum * Located at Confluence Park, Delta, CO * PO Box 19, Delta, CO 81416 * [phone] or 874-0923 * Established near the confluence of the Uncompahgre and Blue (Gunnison) Rivers about 1826, as a fur trading post.

Fort Union Trading Post National Historic Site, NPS * RR3, Box 71, Williston, ND 58801 (25 miles SW of Williston, ND on ND Hwy 1804) * [phone] * Built by the American Fur
Company in 1828, Ft Union became the headquarters for trading.

Fort Vancouver National Historic Site, NPS * 612 East Reserve St., Vancouver, WA 98661-3811 * [phone] * Fort Vancouver was the headquarters for Hudson's Bay Company operations in Oregon, Washington and British Columbia, 1825-49.

Museum of the Fur Trade * 6321 Hwy 20, Chadron, NE - Three miles east of Chadron on US Hwy 20 * Contact: 308-432-3843 or the Chadron Chamber of Commerce, 308-432-4401 *
Exhibits of trade good, weapons, furs and other items from the Fur Trade.

Museum of the Mountain Man * PO Box 909, Pinedale, WY * [phone] * Exhibits on the fur trade, western exploration, Plains Indians, and early settlements.

Bent's Fort National Historic Site, NPS * 35110 Hwy. 194 E., La Junta, CO 81050 *
[phone] * A trading post on the Santa Fe Trail. In the 1830's & 40's.

Old Mission State Park * PO Box 30, Cataldo, ID 83810-0030 * [phone] * The Mission
is the oldest remaining building in Idaho. Established in the 1840's, by Jesuit priests.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Pre-1840 Living History Publications:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Muzzleloader Magazine" * Route 5, Box 347-M * Texarkana, TX 75501-9442

"Smoke and Fire News" * PO Box 166 * Grand Rapids, OH 43522

"The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly" * The Museum of the Fur Trade * 6321 Highway 20 *
Chadron, NE 69337

"Northwest Journal" * 2611 Deer Side Drive * SE Calgary, AB Canada T2J 6A4

"Tomahawk & Long Rifle" * The AMM * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403

"On the Trail" * PO Box 276 * Sumiton, AL 35148-0276

"Backwoodsman" * PO Box 627 * Westcliffe, CO 81252

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         Period Publications
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Muzzloader Magazine Route 5, Box 347-M Texarkana, Texas 75501-9442

Smoke and Fire News PO Box 166 Grand Rapids, Ohio 43522

The Museum of the Fur Trade 6321 Highway 20 Chadron, Nebraska 69337

National Association of Buckskinners 4701 Marion Street Livestock Exchange
Building, Suite 324 Denver, Colorado 81301 [phone]

National Muzzleloading Rifle Association PO Box 67 Friendship, Indiana 47021

The American Mountain Man Association 16630 Penny Avenue Sand Lake,
Michigan 49346

Coalition of Historical Trekkers P.O. Box 4038 Pueblo CO 81003
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Pre-1840 Living History Organizations:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
National Association of Buckskinners * 4701 Marion Street * Livestock Exchange Building, Suite 324 * Denver, Colorado 81301 * [phone] * Publication: Territorial Dispatch

National Muzzleloading Rifle Association * PO Box 67 * Friendship, Indiana 47021 * Publication: Muzzle Blasts

The American Mountain Man Association * 3483 Squires * Conklin, Michigan 49403 * Publication: Tomahawk & Long Rifle

Coalition of Historical Trekkers * P.O. Box 4038 * Pueblo CO 81003 * Publication: On the Trail
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Fur Trade Forts
Date: 10 Mar 2000 10:06:12 -0700

Ole, how are you going to catalogue all this stuff that is building on this
thread.  By time and direction?  Including country and company?

I have more fur trading/trapper fort locations for you.  Some around Ft.
Union and some around Ft. Manual Lisa at the mouth of the Bighorn on the
Yellowstone.

Walt
Park City, Montana


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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddle Soap ?
Date: 10 Mar 2000 18:51:42 -0600


-----Original Message-----


>How far back do saddle's go? Bet the answers are similiar.


I have a book entitled  "Man Made Mobile,  Early Saddles of Western North
America" that shows illustrations of saddles from as far back as the 6th
century b.c.
It doesn't say anything about saddle soap.

northwoods


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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Fur Trade Forts
Date: 10 Mar 2000 18:15:39 -0700

Walt,
Any fort or trading post that was in existance or being used from 1800 to
1845, I also need a location that can be found on today's maps so that I can
mark the map I have.
The map I am marking up shows no states or cities only rivers and mountains,
when I get through marking this map up I will be able to show how close the
forts were in relation to each other and how much the trapers were in
contact with there line of supply.
Ole # 718
----------
>From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Fur Trade Forts
>Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000, 10:06 AM
>

>Ole, how are you going to catalogue all this stuff that is building on this
>thread.  By time and direction?  Including country and company?
>
>I have more fur trading/trapper fort locations for you.  Some around Ft.
>Union and some around Ft. Manual Lisa at the mouth of the Bighorn on the
>Yellowstone.
>
>Walt
>Park City, Montana
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddle Soap ?
Date: 10 Mar 2000 19:41:54 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks.  I reckon it weren't much of a question, but I was just =
wondering if Saddle Soap could have been around during the Fur Trade.
Pendleton
    -----Original Message-----
    From: northwoods <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Friday, March 10, 2000 4:50 PM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddle Soap ?
   =20
   =20
   =20
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Frans Jurgens <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: March 10, 2000 7:08 AM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddle Soap ?
   =20
   =20
    >How far back do saddle's go? Bet the answers are similiar.
   =20
   =20
    I have a book entitled  "Man Made Mobile,  Early Saddles of Western =
North
    America" that shows illustrations of saddles from as far back as the =
6th
    century b.c.
    It doesn't say anything about saddle soap.
   =20
    northwoods
   =20
   =20
    ----------------------
    hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BF8AC8.B0796020
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Thanks.  I reckon it weren't =
much of a=20
question, but I was just wondering if Saddle Soap could have been around =
during=20
the Fur Trade.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
size=3D2>Pendleton</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>northwoods <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B=
>To:=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Friday, March 10, 2000 4:50 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: =
MtMan-List: Saddle=20
    Soap ?<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: =
Frans=20
    Jurgens <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>>=
<BR>To:=20
    <A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR>Date:=20
    March 10, 2000 7:08 AM<BR>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddle Soap=20
    ?<BR><BR><BR>>How far back do saddle's go? Bet the answers are=20
    similiar.<BR><BR><BR>I have a book entitled  "Man Made=20
    Mobile,  Early Saddles of Western North<BR>America" that =
shows=20
    illustrations of saddles from as far back as the 6th<BR>century =
b.c.<BR>It=20
    doesn't say anything about saddle=20
    =
soap.<BR><BR>northwoods<BR><BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text =
list=20
    info: <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xm=
ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BF8AC8.B0796020--


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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddle Soap ?
Date: 10 Mar 2000 21:03:27 -0600

Larry I wonder what exactly is "saddle soap" comprised of? I mean, is saddle
soap a special type of soap?  Answering that may be a way of determining if
it was around during the fur trade.

northwoods


-----Original Message-----


Thanks.  I reckon it weren't much of a question, but I was just wondering if
Saddle Soap could have been around during the Fur Trade.
Pendleton
    -----Original Message-----
    From: northwoods <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Friday, March 10, 2000 4:50 PM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddle Soap ?



    -----Original Message-----
    From: Frans Jurgens <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: March 10, 2000 7:08 AM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddle Soap ?


    >How far back do saddle's go? Bet the answers are similiar.


    I have a book entitled  "Man Made Mobile,  Early Saddles of Western
North
    America" that shows illustrations of saddles from as far back as the 6th
    century b.c.
    It doesn't say anything about saddle soap.

    northwoods


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddle Soap ?
Date: 11 Mar 2000 03:42:27 EST

  This is no definitive answer, but I find this site, with this info and
thought it might be of some interest
:
<A HREF="http://store.yahoo.com/classic-motoring/leatmytofsad.html">Leather -
The Myth of Saddle Soap</A>

The Myth Of Saddle Soap

    In the late 1800's the final tanning of leather required the talents of a
"currier". This craftsman took the tanned but brittle hide and worked oils
into it until the desired flexibility was obtained. This process was called
fatliquoring. The fatliquor of choice was an emulsion of oil in soap. This
"saddle soap" was not used as a cleaner. It was a softening conditioner.

    In fact, saddle soap is a very poor cleaner. It must first dissolve its
own oils, limiting its capacity to dissolve dirt and oils in the leather.
Saddle soap is also inherently alkaline but alkalinity is damaging to
leather. Another problem arises during application. Most saddle soaps
instruct the user to work the lather into the leather. Since loosened dirt is
suspended in the lather, it is pushed back into the leather's pores.

    Saddle soaps have long been replaced in tanneries by modern emulsions
which penetrate, soften and condition with greater ease and stability. the
popular myth of saddle soap as a cleaner however persists as modern folklore.


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From: "Poorboy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Re: Fur Trade Forts
Date: 11 Mar 2000 06:25:44 -0800


>The map I am marking up shows no states or cities only rivers and
mountains,
>Ole # 718<
>
Klahowya, Ole
reading your recent posts on this subject has motivated me to undertake a
similar project that I have wanted to do for some time.  That is make a very
large map, 60"x100" for my den wall, that I could post forts, trails, major
fur trade landmarks and rendezvous on.  What a reference tool this will be
when reading and organizing information.  Question for the list: the paper I
have obtained is white and of a similar weight as butcher paper, but not
waxed.  I would like to age it to a light tan or parchment color does anyone
have any suggestions.  It seems recently I read something from a teacher
that suggested working with students with quills and writing and they were
able to age the paper some how.  Also question for Ole, Do you or does
anyone have any suggestions as to a good map to use as a reference so I can
reproduce my map onto the paper.  It will be a tedious, by hand project, but
I am very anxious to get started.

Thank you in advance for your time and thoughts.  Your most humble and
obedient servant.
PoorBoy



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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Fur Trade Forts
Date: 11 Mar 2000 08:15:57 -0700

Poorboy,
The map I am using I purchased at a School supply/map store, they had every
kind of map you could think of including historic reproductions and books
that show maps in the 1700s and 1800s.
(Utah Idaho book supplyi in Murray Utah) hope this helps.
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------
>From: "Poorboy" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Re: Fur Trade Forts
>Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000, 7:25 AM
>

>
>>The map I am marking up shows no states or cities only rivers and
>mountains,
>>Ole # 718<
>>
>Klahowya, Ole
>reading your recent posts on this subject has motivated me to undertake a
>similar project that I have wanted to do for some time.  That is make a very
>large map, 60"x100" for my den wall, that I could post forts, trails, major
>fur trade landmarks and rendezvous on.  What a reference tool this will be
>when reading and organizing information.  Question for the list: the paper I
>have obtained is white and of a similar weight as butcher paper, but not
>waxed.  I would like to age it to a light tan or parchment color does anyone
>have any suggestions.  It seems recently I read something from a teacher
>that suggested working with students with quills and writing and they were
>able to age the paper some how.  Also question for Ole, Do you or does
>anyone have any suggestions as to a good map to use as a reference so I can
>reproduce my map onto the paper.  It will be a tedious, by hand project, but
>I am very anxious to get started.
>
>Thank you in advance for your time and thoughts.  Your most humble and
>obedient servant.
>PoorBoy
>
>
>
>----------------------
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>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Fur Trade Forts
Date: 11 Mar 2000 11:52:26 -0500

Ole
just doing a bit of head scratching and pondering---believe the project
that you have started is already accomplished or close to it that
is---you need to look at national geographics (older one) dont know the
date or such but they have a map of indian fights and of forts in the
area that were used ---look at vol 172 no 2  dated august 1987  page 100
is a map of canida showing the HBC fort locations also vol 162 no 5
dated nov 1982  it has a mak insert of the southwest showing a lot of the
info you are seeking there is also a national geographics that shows
indian fights and their locations you need to do a search of the national
geographics at your local library and you will find that what you are
doing has already been done in the most part---and there is fold-out maps
that support and post the data---

I have a couple of the maps that i use when we go west to climb kivas and
there is a lot of info that has already been documented---

believe if you spend a couple of hrs at the library you may have just
what you are looking for in this area---decide on the issue you need then
go to a book store of flea market and look for that volume and date---

YMHOSANT
       =+=
    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce




On Sat, 11 Mar 2000 08:15:57 -0700 "Ole B. Jensen"
<[e-mail]> writes:
> Poorboy,
> The map I am using I purchased at a School supply/map store, they
> had every
> kind of map you could think of including historic reproductions and
> books
> that show maps in the 1700s and 1800s.
> (Utah Idaho book supplyi in Murray Utah) hope this helps.
> YMOS
> Ole # 718
> ----------
> >From: "Poorboy" <[e-mail]>
> >To: <[e-mail]>
> >Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Re: Fur Trade Forts
> >Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000, 7:25 AM
> >
>
> >
> >>The map I am marking up shows no states or cities only rivers and
> >mountains,
> >>Ole # 718<
> >>
> >Klahowya, Ole
> >reading your recent posts on this subject has motivated me to
> undertake a
> >similar project that I have wanted to do for some time.  That is
> make a very
> >large map, 60"x100" for my den wall, that I could post forts,
> trails, major
> >fur trade landmarks and rendezvous on.  What a reference tool this
> will be
> >when reading and organizing information.  Question for the list:
> the paper I
> >have obtained is white and of a similar weight as butcher paper,
> but not
> >waxed.  I would like to age it to a light tan or parchment color
> does anyone
> >have any suggestions.  It seems recently I read something from a
> teacher
> >that suggested working with students with quills and writing and
> they were
> >able to age the paper some how.  Also question for Ole, Do you or
> does
> >anyone have any suggestions as to a good map to use as a reference
> so I can
> >reproduce my map onto the paper.  It will be a tedious, by hand
> project, but
> >I am very anxious to get started.
> >
> >Thank you in advance for your time and thoughts.  Your most humble
> and
> >obedient servant.
> >PoorBoy
> >
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
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> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 11 Mar 2000 12:35:42 EST

Haven't seen much going on lately.  Am I still attached to the list?

What kind of grease was used to protect early muzzleloaders from corrosion?
and how is the best way to do it today?

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 11 Mar 2000 13:58:11 EST

Hello in the camp
 I believe the most common used lubricant used in 18th and 19th century was
whale oil. Great stuff I traded in to a little of it years ago. Being young
and stupid I used it up. (Now I'm just older and still stupid) Whale oil is a
fine lite oil and a little goes a long ways. But do to whales being in short
supply the stuff is like gold now. A lite sewing machine oil comes close to
it. I have also used bear grease on the out side of the gun but be cause of
fouling do not use it down the bore. A lot of people I know use WD40 but that
is little to modern of me.
                                                  See ya on the trail
                                                     Crazy Cyot

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Fur trade Symposium 2000
Date: 11 Mar 2000 12:02:55 -0700

Gentlemen,

I just received the flyer advertising the Fur Trade Symposium 2000 in
detail. Perhaps you have seen the advertisement in the most recent
Muzzleloader magazine. The symposium is sponsored by the Fort Union
Trading Post NHS.

I was fortunate enough to attend the last fur trade symposium held in
Pinedale, Wyoming several years ago. It was one of the highlights of my
involvement in fur trade research and reenactment. The information
presented there along with the field trip led by Dr. Fred Gowans was a
priceless opportunity, and I was able to meet a lot of great people many
of which are members of this list.

It is my humble opinion that the upcoming symposium is THE event of the
year for folks like us who have a love for the history of the western fur
trade.

The dates for the symposium are 21-23 September. It will be held at the
Airport International Inn in Williston, North Dakota.
Some of the keynote speakers are: Dr. Fred Gowans, "Warren A. Ferris Map:
What might have Been."  James A. Hanson , "Why I'm Fascinated with the
Fur Trade." William R. Swagerty. "Uncle Sam's a Weak Old Fellow: Northern
Plains Indian Response to Fur Traders' Activities on the Upper Missouri
to 1831." Clay S. Landry,  "The Price of Beaver: A Study of the Goods
Traded to the Rocky Mountain Trapper by the American Fur Company,
1828-1840."
These are just a few of the presentors scheduled.

The will also be a visit to the Fort complete with an Indian village
outside the gates. Larry Belitz will be one of those doing demonstrations
in the village.

If you would like to receive a program flyer and registration information
you may call 1-800-434-0233. They will add you to the list and mail the
info in early June.

I know there are a number of fellows from this area (Utah) planning on
going, I think it would be great to find out who else may be planning on
attending. Then we could plan an informal gathering at the symposium. So,
if you think you are going to attend let's here from you!

Happy Trails


"Teton" Todd D. Glover
Poison River Party Pilgrim



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Whale Oil
Date: 11 Mar 2000 12:10:37 -0700

Yes, Whale Oil is some good stuff! I was able to procure some from Paul
Jones at the Rendezvous on the Gros Ventre. A might pricey but not
unreasonable. I also purchased some from Lon Shipe out of Montana at the
Fort Bridger doins for a little better price. So keep your eyes open and
you may see some turn up.
Of course I do intend to be very conservative in its use because
eventually there will be no replacing it.


"Teton" Todd D. Glover
Poison River Party Pilgrim

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Whale Oil
Date: 11 Mar 2000 14:50:24 EST

Yep, Sperm Whale Oil is the cat's meow.  If anyone wants a lead, contact me
off list, as I know a trader that has some. I've run into other Sutlers at
Rendezvous that have also had it periodically, but you gotta ask REAL nice
and REAL quiet, as its sold on the QT. Them critters are now an endangered
species.  Barney Fife

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: 18th Century Glasses (Spectacles)
Date: 11 Mar 2000 15:05:01 EST

I found this web site that has links to clothing, glasses, and many other
accoutrements, as well as lots of great pics and sources to buy antigue
specs.  Sorry this is so late in coming after the thread...  Barney Fife <A
HREF="http://reenactment.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.cost
umes.org/pages/18thlinks.htm">About.com :
http://www.costumes.org/pages/18thlinks.htm</A>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fur trade Symposium 2000
Date: 11 Mar 2000 15:25:37 EST

Thanks for the information on the symposium.  Wouldn't have had any idea if
you hadn't spoken up.

Laura Glise
[e-mail]

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From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 11 Mar 2000 14:26:22 -0600

The last of the Naval Stores were auctioned off over 20 years ago.  Those were
the last legal sources of oil available.  Those are gone, only ounces
remain.

If you speak thusly you only encourage the continued slaughter of a too
depleted specie.  Be thankful you have some and shut up, you encourage others
to want some.  That is what creates markets and commerce.

The best alternative, I will state once again, is jojoba oil.  Use it!!

The mountain men in the Rocky Mountains (and every other frontier) used
whatever grease they had when they needed it which could be from any of the
native animals, in civilized areas several plants could be processed for oil.
Bear was favored (particularly in cooking) beaver was usually handy to folks
who trapped beaver for a living.  Grease was grease.  Only a damn fool would
waste good whiskey & geegaw money buying grease for a gun.  People had a lot
more respect for and less of money back then and made do with what they had.
They only bought what they really needed and that which provide the greatest
pleasure.

This subject has been beat to death over and over in the archives.  Read
them.
Follow the link on the bottom of every page that crosses this list.


As a general comment unrelated to the referenced posting, same general
subject:


There is no need to mention modern petroleum base products on a,
pre-industrial
revolution, historic discussion list; there is nothing worth learning there.

We have period alternatives to those few things unavailable.  Often they are
the most correct to the period.

John...


At 12:10 PM 3/11/00 -0700, you wrote:
>Yes, Whale Oil is some good stuff! I was able to procure some
>Of course I do intend to be very conservative in its use because
>eventually there will be no replacing it.
>
>
>"Teton" Todd D. Glover
>Poison River Party Pilgrim
>

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 11 Mar 2000 17:11:28 EST

John
Good input and I agree 100% with you.  Sorry for the slip on that modern
stuff that most folks are using. A little bar grease is all I ever use.

                                                see ya on the trail
                                                 Crazy Cyot

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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 11 Mar 2000 15:38:45 -0800

Crazy, I have a gallon of whale oil around here somewhere. Next time I run
across it I'll send you a little can full. . . .if you want it.
Bill C
-----Original Message-----


>Hello in the camp
> I believe the most common used lubricant used in 18th and 19th century was
>whale oil. Great stuff I traded in to a little of it years ago. Being young
>and stupid I used it up. (Now I'm just older and still stupid) Whale oil is
a
>fine lite oil and a little goes a long ways. But do to whales being in
short
>supply the stuff is like gold now. A lite sewing machine oil comes close to
>it. I have also used bear grease on the out side of the gun but be cause of
>fouling do not use it down the bore. A lot of people I know use WD40 but
that
>is little to modern of me.
>                                                  See ya on the trail
>                                                     Crazy Cyot
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses???
Date: 11 Mar 2000 14:39:37 PST

I am looking for a copy of the book entitled "Primitive Indian Dresses," by
Susan Fecteau.  I have searched Amazon and a few other places and have been
unsuccesful.  Does anyone have a copy they would be interested in parting
with, or is anyone aware of a source for the book???  Much thanks in
advance.



Cliff Tiffie
PO Box 5089
Durant, OK
74702
580-924-4187
---------------------
Aux Aliments de Pays!

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Fur Trade Forts
Date: 11 Mar 2000 16:32:18 -0700

Thanks!
Ole
----------
>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Fur Trade Forts
>Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000, 9:52 AM
>

>Ole
>just doing a bit of head scratching and pondering---believe the project
>that you have started is already accomplished or close to it that
>is---you need to look at national geographics (older one) dont know the
>date or such but they have a map of indian fights and of forts in the
>area that were used ---look at vol 172 no 2  dated august 1987  page 100
>is a map of canida showing the HBC fort locations also vol 162 no 5
>dated nov 1982  it has a mak insert of the southwest showing a lot of the
>info you are seeking there is also a national geographics that shows
>indian fights and their locations you need to do a search of the national
>geographics at your local library and you will find that what you are
>doing has already been done in the most part---and there is fold-out maps
>that support and post the data---
>
>I have a couple of the maps that i use when we go west to climb kivas and
>there is a lot of info that has already been documented---
>
>believe if you spend a couple of hrs at the library you may have just
>what you are looking for in this area---decide on the issue you need then
>go to a book store of flea market and look for that volume and date---
>
>YMHOSANT
>       =+=
>    "HAWK"
>Michael Pierce
>854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
>Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
>e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
>site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
>
>
>
>
>On Sat, 11 Mar 2000 08:15:57 -0700 "Ole B. Jensen"
><[e-mail]> writes:
>> Poorboy,
>> The map I am using I purchased at a School supply/map store, they
>> had every
>> kind of map you could think of including historic reproductions and
>> books
>> that show maps in the 1700s and 1800s.
>> (Utah Idaho book supplyi in Murray Utah) hope this helps.
>> YMOS
>> Ole # 718
>> ----------
>> >From: "Poorboy" <[e-mail]>
>> >To: <[e-mail]>
>> >Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Re: Fur Trade Forts
>> >Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000, 7:25 AM
>> >
>>
>> >
>> >>The map I am marking up shows no states or cities only rivers and
>> >mountains,
>> >>Ole # 718<
>> >>
>> >Klahowya, Ole
>> >reading your recent posts on this subject has motivated me to
>> undertake a
>> >similar project that I have wanted to do for some time.  That is
>> make a very
>> >large map, 60"x100" for my den wall, that I could post forts,
>> trails, major
>> >fur trade landmarks and rendezvous on.  What a reference tool this
>> will be
>> >when reading and organizing information.  Question for the list:
>> the paper I
>> >have obtained is white and of a similar weight as butcher paper,
>> but not
>> >waxed.  I would like to age it to a light tan or parchment color
>> does anyone
>> >have any suggestions.  It seems recently I read something from a
>> teacher
>> >that suggested working with students with quills and writing and
>> they were
>> >able to age the paper some how.  Also question for Ole, Do you or
>> does
>> >anyone have any suggestions as to a good map to use as a reference
>> so I can
>> >reproduce my map onto the paper.  It will be a tedious, by hand
>> project, but
>> >I am very anxious to get started.
>> >
>> >Thank you in advance for your time and thoughts.  Your most humble
>> and
>> >obedient servant.
>> >PoorBoy
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >----------------------
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>> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>> >
>>
>> ----------------------
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>
>________________________________________________________________
>YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
>Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
>Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: AMM Flag?
Date: 11 Mar 2000 16:41:42 -0700

Ho the camp!
I must be getting old but as I remember don't we have a flag?
What does it look like and where can I get one? sure would like to display
it proudly at camp.
Bill, do you have any hat's left?
YMOS
Ole # 718

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 12 Mar 2000 00:13:39 EST

Thanks Bill
For the kind offer If I had some it would be only for show a tells. For it
would be a waste to use it up to my way of thinkin. And to tell the truth my
guns don't see a hole lot of oil. keep clean and dry, no need. John I've had
time to think over what you said I guess I don't agree 100% with you. On the
whale oil I do agree but for your statement "This subject has been beat to
death over and over in the archives. read them" I do not and will not agree.
I can see a time when this list will be no more be cause it all has been beat
to death. There are new people come on to this list all the time who have not
had a chance to have any input in any of the subject that have already been
covered and they my have something of value to add. I did not know when I
came on this list that I had to study the archives be for I could try help
someone with a question or study all the archives before asking a question.
Who needs the list we've got archives. You read them.
                                                                    Crazy Cyot

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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: aging paper
Date: 12 Mar 2000 06:40:24 -0600

A common and popular way of making paper look old is to simply soak it in
tea then expose to bright sunlight for several days. Does a good job. Does
it so well that this is a common method used by fakers and forgers.
Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas


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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses???
Date: 12 Mar 2000 07:48:43 -0800

That book was put out years ago by Lance Grabowski's girl friend. He still
lives next door to her and you might try contacting one of them.
How's things down there? Last night I had the vet out for that blue eyed
mare. She just needed a little tonic to put her right.
Bill C
-----Original Message-----


>I am looking for a copy of the book entitled "Primitive Indian Dresses," by
>Susan Fecteau.  I have searched Amazon and a few other places and have been
>unsuccesful.  Does anyone have a copy they would be interested in parting
>with, or is anyone aware of a source for the book???  Much thanks in
>advance.
>
>
>
>Cliff Tiffie
>PO Box 5089
>Durant, OK
>74702
>580-924-4187
>---------------------
>Aux Aliments de Pays!
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Flag?
Date: 12 Mar 2000 07:49:06 -0800

Just a couple.
-----Original Message-----


>Ho the camp!
>I must be getting old but as I remember don't we have a flag?
>What does it look like and where can I get one? sure would like to display
>it proudly at camp.
>Bill, do you have any hat's left?
>YMOS
>Ole # 718
>
>----------------------
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From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 12 Mar 2000 07:13:08 -0800

> The mountain men in the Rocky Mountains (and every other frontier) used whatever grease they had when they needed it which could be from any of the native animals, in civilized areas several plants could be processed for oil.......JOHN, I'M SUPRISED THAT YOU DIDN'T MENTION BUFFALO LARD, IF RENDERED CORRECTLY AND NOT BURNED IN THE PROCESS IT WILL LAST FOR YEARS. I USE IT TO COOK WITH, GREASE THE GUN, LUBE ABOUT ANY OF MY GEAR, ADD BEESWAX TO IT FOR WATERPROOFING. I HAVE SOME THAT'S 10 YEARS OLD (TESTING TO SEE WHAT IT'S LIFE IS) LEAVE IT IN THE GARAGE, SO IT MAY EXPERIENCE TEMP. FROM THE LOW 40'S AND UP AS HIGH AS THE LOW 80'S IN DEGREES AND SO FAR IS LIKE IT WAS WHEN I FIRST RENDERED IT, NO ODOR - CLEAR COLOR (WHITE), USED IT AT OUR LAST PARTY CAMP TO GREASE THE POT, JUST FINE.

WANT TO RESUPPLY THIS WONDERFUL PRODUCT VERY SHORTLY, HAVE A FRIEND THAT NEEDS TO PUT DOWN A RANK BULL THAT HAS LOTS OF BODY FAT FROM HIS APPEARANCE (THE BULL).

ISN'T THE REASON THAT GAME ANIMAL GREASE WORKS AND DOM. LIVESTOCK DOESN'T IS BECAUSE THE LIVESTOCK IS FEED SALT WHICH WILL APPEAR IN THEIR MEAT AND FAT, THOUGHT I READ THIS YEARS AGO ???

> Bear was favored (particularly in cooking) beaver was usually handy to folks who trapped beaver for a living.  Grease was grease.......I SHOT A BEAR AT A AMISH FRIENDS PLACE NEAR MILROY PA. MANY YEARS AGO, WORD SPREAD THROUGH THE AREA AND BEFORE LONG A HALF DOZEN OLDER MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY SHOWED UP. THEY DEMANDED THE FAT (LARD) FOR MEDICAL PURPOSES, BEING IN MOSTLY AN AMISH AREA I GAVE THEM WHAT THEY WANTED. LATER A HUNTING FRIEND SAID "THEY DON'T BELIEVE IN FIGHTING, TELL THEM TO FORGET" - I REPLIED, "TO DAMN GOOD A HUNTING SPOT TO MAKE ANYONE GET UPSET PLUS ONE OF THOSE BIG BOYS CAN GIVE YOU A BROTHERLY HUG THAT WILL BREAK RIBS" - BEEN THERE, DONE THAT YEARS AGO NEAR LANCASTER PA.


Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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From: "Matthew Porter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: lubricant (was Ho the List!!)
Date: 12 Mar 2000 09:22:47 -0600

A good period lube would be basilicon.  It is made by mixing warm olive oil
and melted beeswax at a 5:1 ratio, oil to wax.  After it is mixed good, pour
it into a container and let it set out and cool.  It also makes good lip
balm.  I made some last night.

Matt
  Porter


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From: "Poorboy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 12 Mar 2000 08:04:44 -0800

>If you speak thusly you only encourage the continued slaughter of a too
>depleted specie.  Be thankful you have some and shut up, you encourage
others
>to want some.  That is what creates markets and commerce.


Klahowya John,
I must strenuously disagree here.  Most of us on this list are
research-history oriented, and to omit historically accurate information due
to modern concerns is the most vile kind of revisionist history.  We are all
aware of the plight of the whales and respect that.
Whale oil is in fact one of the best natural oils available.  Its
availability in the RMFT may be questionable.  I do agree with you and
Gazing Coyote that the frontiersman would use the cheapest most abundant
product available to him, which I do not believe was whale oil.
However, to omit pertinent historical information, because it might raise
eyebrows by today's standards, is unforgivable.  Accurate information is
hard enough to come by without this type of confusion.

(Supporting Story Here)  Many years ago, I met a couple of AMM guys.  In
fact one of them introduced me to this lifestyle of ours, and brought me
very far along on my journey.  However, these guys harped that many items
were totally wrong for the RMFT persona.  Were over critical of other
peoples gear and down right rude at times.  My own research showed that many
of these items were present in the RMFT and were correct.  Albeit, many of
them were uncommon, or rare....and in some cases they were right, the items
should not have been there.  This negative experience turned me off of the
AMM for many years.  I based my opinion of the AMM on my interpretation of
my experiences with these guys.

 In reflection, the premise of the AMM that certain things should not be
present at the modern rendezvous, because they were rare or uncommon in the
RMFT prior to 1840 is very appropriate.  To allow this, provides the
opportunity for the items to become common at the modern rend. and then
create the impression that they were common/accurate historically.
Revisionist history of an equally vile nature.

Since coming to this list I have confirmed the beliefs that I have developed
over the ensuing years.  Not all AMM members are rude and obtrusive about
their beliefs.  Our portrayal of history must be based on the common sense
use of historically accurate information.  To exclude research because it is
not appropriate to our modern way of thinking, is as great a crime as
supporting theories as facts or reporting inaccuracies as the whole truth.

We are all big boys here that deserve the benefit of each others research in
it entirety.  We can make our own personal values, decisions, and
applications of that research.  And if we are to continue the existence of a
strong, historically accurate portrayal of history than we must mention with
discussion and clarification those things that are rare, uncommon, or
considered inappropriate by today's standards.

I apologize for the length of this posting.  I thank each of you for your
time and considerations, and remain...
Your Most Humble and Obedient Servant
PoorBoy



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From: Ronald Schrotter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: AMM Flag
Date: 12 Mar 2000 08:24:39 -0800 (PST)

Ole, you are correct about having a flag.  Walt
Hayward had the only one Iever saw, and that was many
many moons ago.  As I recall, it was sky blue upper
half and earth brown lower with the same logo that
appears on T&LR in a circle.  I don't remember the
color of the circle.  Perhaps my memory will jog some
other old-timers memory as to more details.  Sorry I
can't recall more details, but I only have half a mind
left, and so remember about half the stuff half the
time.  Dog, GHB
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 12 Mar 2000 12:09:12 -0600


-----Original Message-----



> In reflection, the premise of the AMM that certain things should not be
>present at the modern rendezvous, because they were rare or uncommon in the
>RMFT prior to 1840 is very appropriate

Thanks for the interesting post Poorboy. But the statement you made above
leads me to a question that I have often wondered about. Just because
something was rare or uncommon in the RMFT, does that mean that it is not
acceptable to portray it in historical reenactments at any level? I mean, it
seems to me that something like the people and events that comprise the fur
trade were very much unique and unusual in a lot of respects. Many things
were more the exception than the rule. As a whole it's difficult in many
instances to determine just exactly what was "typical". It seems to me that
since the RMFT was made up of so many different individuals from different
backgrounds that to try and portray it in a "typical" fashion is bound to
lead to an inaccurate representation on a larger level. Simply because so
many people and things were not typical. As similar as some of the folks
were that participated in the fur trade in methods and certain personal
characteristics there uniqueness seems to stand out also.

northwoods



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From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Flag
Date: 12 Mar 2000 10:36:30 -0800

On Sun, 12 March 2000, Ronald Schrotter wrote:

>
> Ole, you are correct about having a flag.  Walt
> Hayward had the only one Iever saw, and that was many
> many moons ago.  As I recall, it was sky blue upper
> half and earth brown lower with the same logo that
> appears on T&LR in a circle.  I don't remember the
> color of the circle.  Perhaps my memory will jog some
> other old-timers memory as to more details.  Sorry I
> can't recall more details, but I only have half a mind
> left, and so remember about half the stuff half the
> time.  Dog, GHB
> __________________________________________________

The last time I saw the AMM flag was in 1974 or 1976 at the Nationals (can't remember which year), Ray Turner and Dick Whitmer (AMM members) took me over to meet Walt and several others.

Dog, is correct in it's color and design.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
On another note;
We have been really pushing the mountainman models (western & eastern), that's fine and from what Allen writes the cases are starting to look really good.

Sounds like we may have some extra money left from the "nesting pot" fund. This is great and wonderful,.

BUT have we discuss the possible of one more image - a Native American that we could clothed and maybe use Bailey's bow with and the arrows, the clout, etc. ???? If we have enough left over for a used model, I'm sure we can come up with clothing.

If this is possible I will dig up another pair of center seam mocs, a shirt, a buffalo jaw bone club, horse dance stick, 12-13 in. turtle shell, gourd drinking cup, buffalo bladder skin (used for quills), a woven wood ladel, beaver skull, and what ever else I find.  Can you tell I'm cleaning out my den to paint!

Just think of what else this person would need, does anyone's wife have an old wig we could die black and braid for this person.

Remember these people where both friend and enemy to the mountainman, could mean a good season or one that sucked. We need to address this issue also when talking about the AMM display.


Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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From: "Poorboy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 12 Mar 2000 10:46:48 -0800

Klahowya Northwoods,

Yes you are correct.  I agree that the RMFTrappers were a group of vast
individualists and a variety of items may have been transported west by them
and later by the supply trains.  However, and there are many arguments as
too availability verses existence, much of what was available is documented.
I would also put forth the following thoughts.  We all present our personas
in different formats and functions.  If one is making a presentation to the
uninformed public, i.e.: schools, museums, cub scouts, things can be
explained in and out of persona.  The presenter can take the time to explain
the availability or frequency of items in a certain location.  Thus
identifying the correctness verses availability issues, and not revisiting
the perception of history.  I would  express the caution to everyone that
even if you take the time to explain these things, often what is remembered
by the public is what you are wearing and what artifacts you present to
them.  In my opinion it is better to portray the most realistic/common, and
explain or show the rest.  I have made presentations like this for many
years and my theory is this:  You can make a kid (person) sit through all of
the classes and memorize bits about names and dates , over and over.  But
show that same person an actual artifact or recreated piece of history and
their eyes grow as big as saucers, and they will remember that little piece
of history the rest of their lives.  Especially if you allow them to handle
that piece of history.
Now at a modern rendezvous, it is a little different.  I feel we are dealing
with a certain amount of educated research oriented people who deserve to
share in as accurate an experience as possible.  You also have a certain
amount of people at various stages of the education process.  They are
always looking to the more experienced to show them the way.  And yes many
hold the AMM in the highest esteem.  This should in turn encourage those
being examined to hold there own presentation and research to the highest
examination.  There are also times to explain away the rest around the camp
fires.  There is a very real danger of once allowing the rare/uncommon items
in that everyone will soon think of himself as one of the exception cases.
Next thing you know people perceive those things as common.
And there are certainly get togethers that are more relaxed and I would hope
that people know the difference.  Unfortunately, this is not always the
case.  Therefore, I put forth that a person claiming to be knowledgeable and
especially those belonging to an educated class as the AMM, are honor bound
to be as accurate as much as possible, as one never knows who is looking and
may not be at the campfire later to hear the qualifying discussions.

As an aside, I am not an AMM member, am still waiting for my invite.  I am
planning to obtain my teaching certificate soon, and dedicate myself to my
life's dream of sharing our history with our children.

History is the key to our future, use it to open the door.
I remain your most Obedient and Humble Servant,
PoorBoy

Please if anyone, especially an AMM member thinks I am way off on this
please share your thoughts.



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From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 12 Mar 2000 10:57:03 -0800

On Sun, 12 March 2000, "Poorboy" wrote:
> (Supporting Story Here)  Many years ago, I met a couple of AMM guys.  In fact one of them introduced me to this lifestyle of ours, and brought me very far along on my journey.  However, these guys harped that many items were totally wrong for the RMFT persona.  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ALL GROUPS NO MATTER WHAT THEIR NAME HAVE HAD A FEW PROBLEMS WITH STRONG MINDED MEMBERS THAT WON'T GIVE GOOD SOUND RESEARCH A SECOND LOOK. TOO BAD YOU GOT A PAIR.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> This negative experience turned me off of the AMM for many years.  I based my opinion of the AMM on my interpretation of my experiences with these guys.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'M SURE THAT WOULD TURN THEIR OWN BROTHERS AGAINST THEM TOO.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  In reflection, the premise of the AMM that certain things should not be present at the modern rendezvous, because they were rare or uncommon in the RMFT prior to 1840 is very appropriate.  To allow this, provides the opportunity for the items to become common at the modern rend. and then create the impression that they were common/accurate historically.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I THINK ALL OF US AGREE - MOUNTAINMAN, REV. WAR OR F&I REENACTER. JUST BECAUSE EVERYONE STARTS USING AN ITEM FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER DOESN'T MAKE IT CORRECT IN ANY TIME PERIOD. LOOK AT THE ICE CHESTS OR BEER CANS SEEN SO OFTEN.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Since coming to this list I have confirmed the beliefs that I have developed over the ensuing years.  Not all AMM members are rude and obtrusive about their beliefs.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THINGS HAVE CHANGED IN ALL THE GROUPS INCLUDING THE AMM, WITH THE ADVENT OF BETTER RESEARCH, THE INTERNET TO PASS NEW FOUND RESEARCH, EVERYONE IS STARTING TO COME ON BOARD AND DO THEIR HOMEWORK. BEING AMM AND IN THE PERIOD FOOD AND CAMPWARE BUSINESS - RESEARCH IS THE ONLY WORD WE KNOW, GOOD SOUND DOCUMENTATION.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> I apologize for the length of this posting.  I thank each of you for your time and considerations, and remain...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
POORBOY THAT WAS AN EXCELLENT POST, THANK YOU.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Your Most Humble and Obedient Servant
> PoorBoy


Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 12 Mar 2000 12:53:17 -0800

And let us not forget that the rendezvous was a very small part of the
mountain man's existence. Many traveled over the entire west, often they
were found in the far flung communities such as Yerba Buena, Taos, Bent's
Fort, Santa Fe, and even Old Mexico. For someone interested in "reenacting"
the rendezvous certainly many things were rare that in the communities were
not, and therefor the number of articles available to them in portrayals of
the events are more limited. For those whose interests are more in learning
the skills that helped the original mountain men survive, rather than
reenacting, the range broadens.
Bill C
-----Original Message-----


>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Poorboy <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: March 12, 2000 9:58 AM
>Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
>
>
>
>> In reflection, the premise of the AMM that certain things should not be
>>present at the modern rendezvous, because they were rare or uncommon in
the
>>RMFT prior to 1840 is very appropriate
>
>Thanks for the interesting post Poorboy. But the statement you made above
>leads me to a question that I have often wondered about. Just because
>something was rare or uncommon in the RMFT, does that mean that it is not
>acceptable to portray it in historical reenactments at any level? I mean,
it
>seems to me that something like the people and events that comprise the fur
>trade were very much unique and unusual in a lot of respects. Many things
>were more the exception than the rule. As a whole it's difficult in many
>instances to determine just exactly what was "typical". It seems to me that
>since the RMFT was made up of so many different individuals from different
>backgrounds that to try and portray it in a "typical" fashion is bound to
>lead to an inaccurate representation on a larger level. Simply because so
>many people and things were not typical. As similar as some of the folks
>were that participated in the fur trade in methods and certain personal
>characteristics there uniqueness seems to stand out also.
>
>northwoods
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 12 Mar 2000 13:15:17 -0700

Indeed the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade covers a lot of ground.  One of the
things I enjoy most about the Red Lodge Mountain Man Rendezvous are the
different camps represented by people.  The summer camps have been most
interesting.  For the first time I was exposed to the camps of the southern
and central Rocky Mountain Men and the most interesting changes in equipment
to adjust to the ecology of the area.  The pony trappers/traders were indeed
a brief 15 year span in the fur trade here.  Starting with the first
rendezvous in1825 and finishing up in 1840.  Yet this particular group as
had more impact upon the idea of a mountain man than any other fur groups
working the area.  I see the over all map that Ole is talking about as a
ring around Yellowstone Park.  This unique feature is also a unique to the
mountain men.  Mapping like this would allow the incorporation of what is
known about various aspects of mountain men.  From early one the river
bottom men worked into the feeder streams containing the bulk of the beaver
of the Yellowstone basin.  These river bottom trappers and traders came in
before the pony traders and in the likes of John Gardner remained at home on
the Yellowstone doing business with Ft Union.


Walt
Park City, Montana



----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2000 1:53 PM


> And let us not forget that the rendezvous was a very small part of the
> mountain man's existence. Many traveled over the entire west, often they
> were found in the far flung communities such as Yerba Buena, Taos, Bent's
> Fort, Santa Fe, and even Old Mexico. For someone interested in
"reenacting"
> the rendezvous certainly many things were rare that in the communities
were
> not, and therefor the number of articles available to them in portrayals
of
> the events are more limited. For those whose interests are more in
learning
> the skills that helped the original mountain men survive, rather than
> reenacting, the range broadens.
> Bill C
> -----Original Message-----
> From: northwoods <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Sunday, March 12, 2000 10:05 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
>
>
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Poorboy <[e-mail]>
> >To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> >Date: March 12, 2000 9:58 AM
> >Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
> >
> >
> >
> >> In reflection, the premise of the AMM that certain things should not be
> >>present at the modern rendezvous, because they were rare or uncommon in
> the
> >>RMFT prior to 1840 is very appropriate
> >
> >Thanks for the interesting post Poorboy. But the statement you made above
> >leads me to a question that I have often wondered about. Just because
> >something was rare or uncommon in the RMFT, does that mean that it is not
> >acceptable to portray it in historical reenactments at any level? I mean,
> it
> >seems to me that something like the people and events that comprise the
fur
> >trade were very much unique and unusual in a lot of respects. Many things
> >were more the exception than the rule. As a whole it's difficult in many
> >instances to determine just exactly what was "typical". It seems to me
that
> >since the RMFT was made up of so many different individuals from
different
> >backgrounds that to try and portray it in a "typical" fashion is bound to
> >lead to an inaccurate representation on a larger level. Simply because so
> >many people and things were not typical. As similar as some of the folks
> >were that participated in the fur trade in methods and certain personal
> >characteristics there uniqueness seems to stand out also.
> >
> >northwoods
> >
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
> ----------------------
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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: defining mountain men?
Date: 12 Mar 2000 13:26:53 -0700

Hello Buck,
If John Colter is considered the first of the American Mountain Men how can
there be eastern mountainman models?
Walt
Park City, Montana



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Poorboy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 12 Mar 2000 13:30:44 -0800



>Indeed the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade covers a lot of ground.  One of the
>things I enjoy most about the Red Lodge Mountain Man Rendezvous are the
>different camps represented by people.<
Klahowya,
I agree most heartedly Walt.  We must however be careful not to blend the
various personnas too much.  Although it may be argued succesfully that
certain cross overs did happen.  The varied and lengthy travels of the
mountain men are well documented.  The minced meat approach of some has
blurred many a historical area.
I do not want to discourage anyone from participating, or developing an
ongoing persona.  Lord knows we are still there ourselves.  I just
personally choose to be very careful and considerate with my own
presentations.
I remain your most humble and obedient servant.
PoorBoy



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From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses???
Date: 12 Mar 2000 13:48:36 PST


Things are mostly fine here.  Already getting warm for the season and ain't
quite summer yet.  Spent the morning making preperations for the horse camp
at Ft. Washita.  Looks like things will be well.
Many folks have responded off list with sources for the book, I appreciate
everyones information.
How does one get ahold of Lance or his girlfriend??
Hope that pretty mare fairs well!!
Cliff
______________________________________________________
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From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 12 Mar 2000 14:29:58 -0800

On Sun, 12 March 2000, "Walt Foster" wrote:
> Indeed the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade covers a lot of ground.  One of the things I enjoy most about the Red Lodge Mountain Man Rendezvous are the different camps represented by people..................
> Walt
> Park City, Montana
> -----------------------------------------------------
> ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bill Cunningham" <[e-mail]>
> > And let us not forget that the rendezvous was a very small part of the mountain man's existence. Many traveled over the entire west, often they were found in the far flung communities such as Yerba Buena, Taos, Bent's................
> > For those whose interests are more in learning the skills that helped the original mountain men survive, rather than reenacting, the range broadens............
> > Bill C
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thank you Bill,
  Many more than most would think have given up on rendezvous years ago because of what has been mentioned in the last few posts.
  I for one haven't been to any large event since a canoe trip from Ft. Osage to Ft. deCharter in 1995, seems some of the doings have gotten so large that the groups handling them have lost control, with the public, the traders and the folks attending.
  So rather than open my big mouth and tell them (the ones running the show) about the trader's in camo's or the guy telling a story to the public that's way off from what is documented, a half dozen of us just do our treks, canoe trips and horseback adventurers unannounced.
  Those that have known me for the last 25-30 years don't believe I now keep still, maybe a slow learner or I've just got tired of trying. One thing, it sure makes life easier not having to fight these battles, or Fish & Game for more muzzleloading lic., etc.
  The list has had some really interesting items of late, could jump in more but don't one to be a pain in the you know what.

Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: defining mountain men?]
Date: 12 Mar 2000 18:11:56 EST

"Walt Foster" <[e-mail]> wrote:
Hello Buck,
If John Colter is considered the first of the American Mountain Men how c=
an
there be eastern mountainman models?
Walt
Park City, Montana

Where do you think most of them mountainmen came from Walt, they weren't =
born
in the mountains, many came from the east like Colter, if it hadn't been =
for
Lewis & Clark bringing him, wonder if he would have come on his own ??

Concho.

____________________________________________________________________
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From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!]
Date: 12 Mar 2000 18:18:55 EST

Buck Conner <[e-mail]> wrote:
On Sun, 12 March 2000, "Walt Foster" wrote:
> Indeed the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade covers a lot of ground.  One of the=

things I enjoy most about the Red Lodge Mountain Man Rendezvous are the
different camps represented by people..................
> Walt
> Park City, Montana
> -----------------------------------------------------
> ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bill Cunningham" <[e-mail]>
> > And let us not forget that the rendezvous was a very small part of th=
e
mountain man's existence. Many traveled over the entire west, often they =
were
found in the far flung communities such as Yerba Buena, Taos,
Bent's................
> > For those whose interests are more in learning the skills that helped=
 the
original mountain men survive, rather than reenacting, the range
broadens............
> > Bill C
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thank you Bill,
  Many more than most would think have given up on rendezvous years ago
because of what has been mentioned in the last few posts.
  I for one haven't been to any large event since a canoe trip from Ft. O=
sage
to Ft. deCharter in 1995, seems some of the doings have gotten so large t=
hat
the groups handling them have lost control, with the public, the traders =
and
the folks attending.
  So rather than open my big mouth and tell them (the ones running the sh=
ow)
about the trader's in camo's or the guy telling a story to the public tha=
t's
way off from what is documented, a half dozen of us just do our treks, ca=
noe
trips and horseback adventurers unannounced.
  Those that have known me for the last 25-30 years don't believe I now k=
eep
still, maybe a slow learner or I've just got tired of trying. One thing, =
it
sure makes life easier not having to fight these battles, or Fish & Game =
for
more muzzleloading lic., etc.
  The list has had some really interesting items of late, could jump in m=
ore
but don't one to be a pain in the you know what.

Later
Buck Conner

Have to agree with you how some of the big events have gotten lost in the=

original intent of the affair.

Makes me sad to see you finally calm down, Buck you where very entertaini=
ng at
those Moose & Goose meeting telling the director he better wakeup, that
muzzlelaoders where voters too. The good old days that many of us still t=
alk
about, you and the "Out Gang" where fun.

Concho.


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From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!]
Date: 12 Mar 2000 15:29:41 -0800

On Sun, 12 March 2000, Concho Smith wrote:
> Have to agree with you how some of the big events have gotten lost in the original intent of the affair.
>
> Makes me sad to see you finally calm down, Buck you where very entertaining at those Moose & Goose meeting telling the director he better wakeup, that
> muzzlelaoders where voters too. The good old days that many of us still talk about, you and the "Out Gang" where fun.
>
> Concho.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thanks Concho,
I hope some of you have paid attention and are paying attention to what's happening with our game laws, after all the work here in Colorado to get a muzzleloading season, now it's in trouble again like many other states. You have to lobby your Fish & Game if need be and go to those open meeting.


Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 12 Mar 2000 18:34:41 -0500

Buck,
 That is prety much what we do here.... Quiet, low key and private affairs
that conforn to no-one standardsor criticisms but our own.
D


"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"



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From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 12 Mar 2000 15:42:53 -0800

On Sun, 12 March 2000, "D Miles" wrote:

>
> Buck,
>  That is prety much what we do here.... Quiet, low key and private affairs
> that conforn to no-one standardsor criticisms but our own.
> D

Dennis,
Have you got that right, the only one to judge you is yourself and by now we have become the hardest to please. Have never gotten into the crap of putting others down like so many, if you do your research for your time period you know what is correct. Then a year goes by and more documentation is found and your back to changing items found not really right. That's what this whole thing is about, trying to get as close as possible and experience what our forefathers had to deal with, food, clothing, equipage, the elements.



Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: defining mountain men?]
Date: 12 Mar 2000 16:54:21 -0700

Hello Concho,
All of the American Mountain Men at first came from the east.  I went from
here to Fr. Dix one time by bus and I saw all the mountains between here and
Lancaster, PA.  Those mountains are very different from the Rocky Mountains
and particularly different from the northern Rocky Mountains.  Colter spent
the first winter on the Clarks Fork of the Yellowstone River with Dixon and
Hancock.  It appears they came up the Yellowstone with that in mind.  Do you
disagree that John Colter was given the title of the first mountain man?  I
thought that was rather well known and an excepted fact.
Walt
Park City, Montana


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2000 4:11 PM


"Walt Foster" <[e-mail]> wrote:
Hello Buck,
If John Colter is considered the first of the American Mountain Men how can
there be eastern mountainman models?
Walt
Park City, Montana

Where do you think most of them mountainmen came from Walt, they weren't
born
in the mountains, many came from the east like Colter, if it hadn't been for
Lewis & Clark bringing him, wonder if he would have come on his own ??

Concho.

____________________________________________________________________
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http://webmail.netscape.com.

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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!]
Date: 12 Mar 2000 17:04:31 -0700

> ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bill Cunningham" <[e-mail]>
> > And let us not forget that the rendezvous was a very small part of the
mountain man's existence. Many traveled over the entire west, often they
were
found in the far flung communities such as Yerba Buena, Taos,
Bent's................ For those whose interests are more in learning the
skills that helped the
original mountain men survive, rather than reenacting, the range
broadens............

Indeed it does Bill,
I am beginning to see a growing closer theme in reenactors interests in the
last few years in ascertaining a higher degree of authenticity in both camps
around here.  For example a quiet camp has been going on for 4 years now
which concentrates on the sharing experience of learning/teaching geared at
to how to in 4 season Montana weather using original mountain man equipment.
This is fun!!  When we want to trade or what ever.  We can go over the hill
to the Red Lodge Mountain Man Rendezvous.
Walt
Park City, Montana



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!]
Date: 12 Mar 2000 17:07:42 -0700

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Thanks Concho,
> I hope some of you have paid attention and are paying attention to what's
happening with our game laws, after all the work here in Colorado to get a
muzzleloading season, now it's in trouble again like many other states. You
have to lobby your Fish & Game if need be and go to those open meeting.
Later Buck Conner
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Or hunt in regular season Buck like I do here in Montana with great
pleasure.  Can't you hunt the same way in Colorado?
Walt
Park City, Montana


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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 12 Mar 2000 17:10:19 -0700

Good Post Buck,  from there on it is a matter of geography.  The list spans
the time.
Walt
Park City, Montana




> Dennis,
> Have you got that right, the only one to judge you is yourself and by now
we have become the hardest to please. Have never gotten into the crap of
putting others down like so many, if you do your research for your time
period you know what is correct. Then a year goes by and more documentation
is found and your back to changing items found not really right. That's what
this whole thing is about, trying to get as close as possible and experience
what our forefathers had to deal with, food, clothing, equipage, the
elements.
> Later
> Buck Conner



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: To think about!
Date: 12 Mar 2000 17:36:52 -0700

Hello the camp,
Think about this,
1. most trappers had a horse they would ride along with 1,2 or 3 pack
animals.
The reason for the pack animals was not to pack in, it was to pack out
(furs). There for a trapper in a party caries in equipment and provisions
for the fall and spring trapping season and when he takes his furs to
market, he cached all the unnesecary stuff where he can reclaim it for the
next years season.
2. Unless a trapping party was in danger during the trapping season, they
would prety much stay in the same area until in was spring.
3. The majority of trapping was done by Indians and hides were traded at
forts owned by diferent concerns the bigest two were American fur and HBC.
The statements I have just made will only be held dear to me until someone
straightens me out.
YMOS
Ole # 718

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Flag?
Date: 12 Mar 2000 17:38:54 -0700

Hello the camp,
Does anyone have a picture or drawing of our flag?
Ole # 718

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The archives
Date: 12 Mar 2000 18:37:25 -0600

Crazy Cyot,

I have read the archives: I consider it a matter of courtesy. =20

Those who don't; miss out on great information that is not likely to ever be
repeated like Angela's husband Jeff and the - too few -  hugely informative
postings with which he has graced our list.  Angela's postings contain a
wealth
of valuable knowledge.  There is a lot more, for those who are not mere
triflers, to relish.  I go back and read some of these posts again and=
 again,
there is much to learn from them. =20

I read the complete archive and monitored the current discussions before I
ever
posted my first word, it was the courteous thing to do before joining the
conversation. =20

A lot of my time and energy has gone into my few meager postings.  I have
shared of my research as have many others whose research outshines mine and
who
have shared even more freely.  I work hard at my writing to try and speak
clearly, it does not come easy to me.   A major posting takes me many hours
over several days to compose.

Good and thoughtful answers take a lot of time to write; busy people have
worked hard to prepare useful postings, and Dean has made it easy for=
 everyone
to find them.  =20

I suggest everyone read the archive as it is more conservative of other
peoples
time.  That is the courtesy due those busy people who have taken the time=
 and
expended the effort to share their knowledge. =20

I am oft amazed at the quality of information that passes across this list,
there is always something old to be learned, and I have learned a lot from=
 the
people who post here. =20

This is not a new list some of us have been here for years.  I'm not
shortsighted enough to foresee all answers ever existing in the archives, we
haven't even begun to raise a high percentage of all the possible questions.=
 =20

There is more than enough in the past we don't know; to keep us all busy far
beyond any foreseeable future. =20

Bill is a lot nicer guy than I am.  Ask anybody; the nicer description for=
 me
is curmudgeon.  A fundamental colloquialism is more commonly applied.  =20

John...




At 12:13 AM 3/12/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Thanks Bill=20
>For the kind offer If I had some it would be only for show a tells. For it=
=20
>would be a waste to use it up to my way of thinkin. And to tell the truth=
 my=20
>guns don't see a hole lot of oil. keep clean and dry, no need. John I've=
 had=20
>time to think over what you said I guess I don't agree 100% with you. On=
 the=20
>whale oil I do agree but for your statement "This subject has been beat to=
=20
>death over and over in the archives. read them" I do not and will not=
 agree.=20
>I can see a time when this list will be no more be cause it all has been
beat=20
>to death. There are new people come on to this list all the time who have
not=20
>had a chance to have any input in any of the subject that have already been=
=20
>covered and they my have something of value to add. I did not know when I=
=20
>came on this list that I had to study the archives be for I could try help=
=20
>someone with a question or study all the archives before asking a question.=
=20
>Who needs the list we've got archives. You read them.
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Crazy
Cyot
>
>----------------------

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses???
Date: 12 Mar 2000 14:54:56 -0600

The book is currently out of print. =20

I can assure you that neither Lance nor Susan have any copies. =20

Consideration has been given to a reprint; it is not presently scheduled.

Used book dealers would be the only present source.

John...



At 07:48 AM 3/12/00 -0800, you wrote:
>That book was put out years ago by Lance Grabowski's girl friend. He still
>lives next door to her and you might try contacting one of them.
>How's things down there? Last night I had the vet out for that blue eyed
>mare. She just needed a little tonic to put her right.
>Bill C
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Chance Tiffie <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Saturday, March 11, 2000 2:40 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses???
>
>
>>I am looking for a copy of the book entitled "Primitive Indian Dresses,"=
 by
>>Susan Fecteau.=A0 I have searched Amazon and a few other places and have=
 been
>>unsuccesful.=A0 Does anyone have a copy they would be interested in=
 parting
>>with, or is anyone aware of a source for the book???=A0 Much thanks in
>>advance.
>>
>>
>>
>>Cliff Tiffie
>>PO Box 5089
>>Durant, OK
>>74702
>>580-924-4187
>>---------------------
>>Aux Aliments de Pays!
>>
>>______________________________________________________
>>Get Your Private, Free Email at
<http://www.hotmail.com/>http://www.hotmail.com
>>
>>
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>
>
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>=20
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20


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From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 12 Mar 2000 14:58:30 -0600

Poorboy,

Basically I agree with most of what you said. =20

It was not the mention of the oil I took exception to, it is something
extensively discussed before.  It was the braggadocio of words that in=
 essence
said "I have some and you don't"  to which I took exception.  That is what
encourages others to want. =20

I never suggest excluding research -- no research was presented, nothing=
 other
than a personal observation that it is "some good stuff" this is not
information we will be less informed without.

John...

At 08:04 AM 3/12/00 -0800, you wrote:
>>If you speak thusly you only encourage the continued slaughter of a too
>>depleted specie.=A0 Be thankful you have some and shut up, you encourage
>others
>>to want some.=A0 That is what creates markets and commerce.
>
>
>Klahowya John,
>I must strenuously disagree here.=A0 Most of us on this list are
>research-history oriented, and to omit historically accurate information=
 due
>to modern concerns is the most vile kind of revisionist history.=A0 We are=
 all
>aware of the plight of the whales and respect that.
>Whale oil is in fact one of the best natural oils available.=A0 Its
>availability in the RMFT may be questionable.=A0 I do agree with you and
>Gazing Coyote that the frontiersman would use the cheapest most abundant
>product available to him, which I do not believe was whale oil.
>However, to omit pertinent historical information, because it might raise
>eyebrows by today's standards, is unforgivable.=A0 Accurate information is
>hard enough to come by without this type of confusion.
>
>(Supporting Story Here)=A0 Many years ago, I met a couple of AMM guys.=A0=
 In
>fact one of them introduced me to this lifestyle of ours, and brought me
>very far along on my journey.=A0 However, these guys harped that many items
>were totally wrong for the RMFT persona.=A0 Were over critical of other
>peoples gear and down right rude at times.=A0 My own research showed that=
 many
>of these items were present in the RMFT and were correct.=A0 Albeit, many=
 of
>them were uncommon, or rare....and in some cases they were right, the items
>should not have been there.=A0 This negative experience turned me off of=
 the
>AMM for many years.=A0 I based my opinion of the AMM on my interpretation=
 of
>my experiences with these guys.
>
> In reflection, the premise of the AMM that certain things should not be
>present at the modern rendezvous, because they were rare or uncommon in the
>RMFT prior to 1840 is very appropriate.=A0 To allow this, provides the
>opportunity for the items to become common at the modern rend. and then
>create the impression that they were common/accurate historically.
>Revisionist history of an equally vile nature.
>
>Since coming to this list I have confirmed the beliefs that I have=
 developed
>over the ensuing years.=A0 Not all AMM members are rude and obtrusive about
>their beliefs.=A0 Our portrayal of history must be based on the common=
 sense
>use of historically accurate information.=A0 To exclude research because it=
 is
>not appropriate to our modern way of thinking, is as great a crime as
>supporting theories as facts or reporting inaccuracies as the whole truth.
>
>We are all big boys here that deserve the benefit of each others research=
 in
>it entirety.=A0 We can make our own personal values, decisions, and
>applications of that research.=A0 And if we are to continue the existence=
 of a
>strong, historically accurate portrayal of history than we must mention=
 with
>discussion and clarification those things that are rare, uncommon, or
>considered inappropriate by today's standards.
>
>I apologize for the length of this posting.=A0 I thank each of you for your
>time and considerations, and remain...
>Your Most Humble and Obedient Servant
>PoorBoy
>
>
>
>----------------------
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>=20
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20


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From: "Poorboy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: Fw: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 12 Mar 2000 17:10:26 -0800


>It was not the mention of the oil I took exception to, it is something
extensively discussed before.  It was the braggadocio of words ...
I never suggest excluding research -- no research was presented, nothing
other
than a personal observation ...<
John...

Klahowya John,
My most humble apologies.  As is often the case with this silent
communication, I could not hear your voice inflections, nor was I familiar
with the previous discussion on braggadocio.
I remain your most humble and obedient servant.
PoorBoy



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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!]
Date: 12 Mar 2000 18:41:16 -0800

Right. I hope I'm not taken wrong. I believe in researching and getting the
gear as historically correct as I can. It's just that I don't place an
emphasis on rendezvous. I enjoy it, yes. But to really experience what the
mountain men did, and use the gear available to them, and learn what they
knew, one has to get away from the rendezvous.
-----Original Message-----


>> ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Bill Cunningham" <[e-mail]>
>> > And let us not forget that the rendezvous was a very small part of the
>mountain man's existence. Many traveled over the entire west, often they
>were
>found in the far flung communities such as Yerba Buena, Taos,
>Bent's................ For those whose interests are more in learning the
>skills that helped the
>original mountain men survive, rather than reenacting, the range
>broadens............
>
>Indeed it does Bill,
>I am beginning to see a growing closer theme in reenactors interests in the
>last few years in ascertaining a higher degree of authenticity in both
camps
>around here.  For example a quiet camp has been going on for 4 years now
>which concentrates on the sharing experience of learning/teaching geared at
>to how to in 4 season Montana weather using original mountain man
equipment.
>This is fun!!  When we want to trade or what ever.  We can go over the hill
>to the Red Lodge Mountain Man Rendezvous.
>Walt
>Park City, Montana
>
>
>
>----------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 12 Mar 2000 18:51:32 -0800

There are many modern mountain men who do not have personas, but prefer to
just be a modern mountain man trying to live as closely to the old ways as
possible in order to learn the survival skills the old timers had. There are
some, even, who live out pretty much full time today. Their equipment
sometimes becomes a hodge-podge of various influences, depending on where
they are when something wears out. Such as a pair of brain tanned trousers
worn with a southwest style shirt that replaced a typical trade shirt, or a
flat crowned hat that replaced a round dome lost in a horse wreck. Just as
could happen in the old days. Trying to put a host of regulations on those
who are not reenactors won't work. Most of them aren't even aware of these
discussions and don't read the magazines. They are busy doing research in
libraries and getting out on the ground to try out what they find.
-----Original Message-----


>
>
>>Indeed the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade covers a lot of ground.  One of the
>>things I enjoy most about the Red Lodge Mountain Man Rendezvous are the
>>different camps represented by people.<
>Klahowya,
>I agree most heartedly Walt.  We must however be careful not to blend the
>various personnas too much.  Although it may be argued succesfully that
>certain cross overs did happen.  The varied and lengthy travels of the
>mountain men are well documented.  The minced meat approach of some has
>blurred many a historical area.
>I do not want to discourage anyone from participating, or developing an
>ongoing persona.  Lord knows we are still there ourselves.  I just
>personally choose to be very careful and considerate with my own
>presentations.
>I remain your most humble and obedient servant.
>PoorBoy
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Flag
Date: 12 Mar 2000 19:52:34 -0600


Walt had the flag and flew it at the 1996  rendezvous at the Big Hole =
Valley in Montana.  I checked my photos of the rdv but don't have a shot =
of the flag.  Maybe he will bring it to Idaho this summer.  If he does, =
I will shoot it and post the photo to the list.
Lanney Ratcliff

----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2000 12:36 PM


> On Sun, 12 March 2000, Ronald Schrotter wrote:
>=20
> >=20
> > Ole, you are correct about having a flag.  Walt
> > Hayward had the only one Iever saw, and that was many
> > many moons ago.  As I recall, it was sky blue upper
> > half and earth brown lower with the same logo that
> > appears on T&LR in a circle.  I don't remember the
> > color of the circle.  Perhaps my memory will jog some
> > other old-timers memory as to more details.  Sorry I
> > can't recall more details, but I only have half a mind
> > left, and so remember about half the stuff half the
> > time.  Dog, GHB
> > __________________________________________________
>=20
> The last time I saw the AMM flag was in 1974 or 1976 at the Nationals =
(can't remember which year), Ray Turner and Dick Whitmer (AMM members) =
took me over to meet Walt and several others.
>=20
> Dog, is correct in it's color and design.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> On another note;=20
> We have been really pushing the mountainman models (western & =
eastern), that's fine and from what Allen writes the cases are starting =
to look really good.
>=20
> Sounds like we may have some extra money left from the "nesting pot" =
fund. This is great and wonderful,.=20
>=20
> BUT have we discuss the possible of one more image - a Native American =
that we could clothed and maybe use Bailey's bow with and the arrows, =
the clout, etc. ???? If we have enough left over for a used model, I'm =
sure we can come up with clothing.
>=20
> If this is possible I will dig up another pair of center seam mocs, a =
shirt, a buffalo jaw bone club, horse dance stick, 12-13 in. turtle =
shell, gourd drinking cup, buffalo bladder skin (used for quills), a =
woven wood ladel, beaver skull, and what ever else I find.  Can you tell =
I'm cleaning out my den to paint!
>=20
> Just think of what else this person would need, does anyone's wife =
have an old wig we could die black and braid for this person.
>=20
> Remember these people where both friend and enemy to the mountainman, =
could mean a good season or one that sucked. We need to address this =
issue also when talking about the AMM display.
> =20
>=20
> Later
> Buck Conner
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> "meat's not meat until it's in the pan"=20
>                   Aux Aliments de Pays!
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>=20
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account =
http://www.uswestmail.net
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
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From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses???
Date: 12 Mar 2000 18:24:24 PST


John,
Thank you for saving me the time and the phone call.  A few people have
responded off-list with sources for the book, and I will take advantage. It
has come highly reccomended, I think a reprint would be in order.
C.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 12 Mar 2000 21:00:10 -0600


-----Original Message-----


> the only one to judge you is yourself ,
>if you do your research for your time period you know what is correct.
>That's what this whole thing is about, trying to get as close as possible
and experience what our forefathers had to deal with, food, clothing,
equipage, the elements.

Have wiser words ever been spoken?

northwoods.







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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses???
Date: 12 Mar 2000 19:54:06 -0700

Cliff,
I saw a copy at Eagle Feather trading post in Ogden, Utah a few month's
back, but I don't have a phone number.
If that doesn't help I know I saw a couple of copies at Fort Bridger
Rendezvous last Labor Day and you might just have to hit a couple of big
doins.If you can tell me what you are looking up I could fax a copy to you
if need be.
Ole # 718
----------
>From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses???
>Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000, 2:48 PM
>

>
>Things are mostly fine here.  Already getting warm for the season and ain't
>quite summer yet.  Spent the morning making preperations for the horse camp
>at Ft. Washita.  Looks like things will be well.
>Many folks have responded off list with sources for the book, I appreciate
>everyones information.
>How does one get ahold of Lance or his girlfriend??
>Hope that pretty mare fairs well!!
>Cliff
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>----------------------
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>

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From: michael pierce <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 12 Mar 2000 21:28:32 -0500

poorboy---
are you a member of the AMM?????   Have you ever been asked to join????
has anyone said that they would sponser you????   dont understand your
post or the reason for it.   Am I missing something in a previous post or
something----what is your point in one sentence????

dont want to be one of those obnoxious people or anything but?????
dont really understand your post or the reason behind it?????what is RMFT
persona---????

YMHOSANT
  =+=
"HAWK"
Michael Pierce
Hawkeye Enterprizes                     "Home of "Old Grizz product line"
 (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.                            E-Mail: [e-mail]
Palm Harbor Florida   34684          web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From: "Crooked Hand" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: pleasse visit then forward!
Date: 12 Mar 2000 23:05:34 -0500

Give the 2nd a helping hand. vote to preserve it.
>Kalifornia anti gun forces love this poll, lets take
>the bait away..Powers I.
>
>Go to www.msjama.org and vote in their quick poll. Pass it on to your
>friends. This is an AMA poll and the anti gunners like to quote their
>results. Let's win this one.




Thanks
Mark Toigo/Crooked Hand/Wethlee-Enke`
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/8699
http://members.xoom.com/crookedhand/gallery.htm



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From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Flag
Date: 12 Mar 2000 21:00:51 -0700

Hello the Camp,

I'm sitting here looking at the (a?) AMM flag.  George sent it to me to have
copied so that we can have one in the display.  As previously noted the top
is a light sky blue, the middle green and the bottom a light brown.  The
logo in the center has a blue field.  In green letters around the edge is
the American Mountain Men.  The center of the logo is a powder horn and knife.

Hope this helps.  My wife does banners and such and is going to copy this
for the Pinedale exhibit.

YMOS,

Allen
Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country


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From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Next museum visit
Date: 12 Mar 2000 21:03:19 -0700

Hello Brothers,

My next visit to the Pinedale museum will probably be on the 28th or 29th of
March.  If I'm lucky, Crazy and Jill will go up and we'll finish the exhibit
for the opening.

Wanted to let you know so if you have stuff to send up it'll make it there
by then.

YMOS,

Allen


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From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!]
Date: 12 Mar 2000 20:09:45 -0800

On Sun, 12 March 2000, "Walt Foster" wrote:

>
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > Thanks Concho,
> > I hope some of you have paid attention and are paying attention to what's
> happening with our game laws, after all the work here in Colorado to get a
> muzzleloading season, now it's in trouble again like many other states. You
> have to lobby your Fish & Game if need be and go to those open meeting.
> Later Buck Conner
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Or hunt in regular season Buck like I do here in Montana with great
> pleasure.  Can't you hunt the same way in Colorado?
> Walt
> Park City, Montana
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Walt,
With our point system, you may possibly only draw every third year, so hunting modern season with a flinter is your only option for the undrawn years, which we do. In fact I sold all my modern weapons but one, and it's a shotgun for home protection.

Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

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From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 12 Mar 2000 20:36:03 -0800

On Sun, 12 March 2000, "Poorboy" wrote:

> nor was I familiar with the previous discussion on braggadocio.
> I remain your most humble and obedient servant.
> PoorBoy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PoorBoy,
Have a question for you, what where you referring to by  "braggadocio" ?

If your saying bragging say so, you'll find many of these guys/gals don't have to bragg about anything, most have been in this sport for 20 to 40 plus years and many have been the one's that have helped to change the Hollywood thinking of the 40's and 50's. Many have helped in getting the muzzleloading seasons for their states that we all enjoy today, all by a hell of a lot of hard work and money out of their own pockets.


Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Turkey Call
Date: 12 Mar 2000 23:48:59 EST

Hawk,
The check is in the mail...... Outstanding little call yer makin there and
even I sound good wid it!

Ymos,
Steve

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 12 Mar 2000 23:31:27 -0600

Washtahay-
At 08:36 PM 3/12/00 -0800, you wrote:
>On Sun, 12 March 2000, "Poorboy" wrote:
>
>> nor was I familiar with the previous discussion on braggadocio.
>> I remain your most humble and obedient servant.
>> PoorBoy
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>PoorBoy,
>Have a question for you, what where you referring to by  "braggadocio" ?
    Aw, geez-cut the guy some slack-he was responding to a post, using the
same words as did the person to whom he was responding.
LongWalker c. du B.


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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Turkey Call
Date: 12 Mar 2000 21:58:34 -0800




> Hawk,
> The check is in the mail...... Outstanding little call yer makin there and
> even I sound good wid it!

Hawk,

Picked me out a nice one with Chip's help. Sounds good too. Pretty little
thing. Thanks again. I don't know if it sounds as much like a turkey as
Steve does. His girls lost to my girls in the State Championship. LIONS
RULE! Sorry Steve, had to do it. <G>

 It was sure good to meet you and all the others. Nice to put a face to the
names. Course I'll remember the faces for ever and forget the names in a
week (or less). We do have a nice bunch of folks on both lists (History list
and MLML)

Crawdad and me are planning on putting that turkey call to good use this
spring, Hawk. Wish us luck. I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
>
> Ymos,
> Steve
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Turkey Calls and Lions
Date: 12 Mar 2000 22:00:43 -0800

> Hawk,
> The check is in the mail...... Outstanding little call yer makin there and
> even I sound good wid it!

Hawk,

Picked me out a nice one with Chip's help. Sounds good too. Pretty little
thing. Thanks again. I don't know if it sounds as much like a turkey as
Steve does. His girls lost to my girls in the State Championship. LIONS
RULE! Sorry Steve, had to do it. <G>

 It was sure good to meet you and all the others. Nice to put a face to the
names. Course I'll remember the faces for ever and forget the names in a
week (or less). We do have a nice bunch of folks on both lists (History list
and MLML)

Crawdad and me are planning on putting that turkey call to good use this
spring, Hawk. Wish us luck. I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




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From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddle Soap
Date: 13 Mar 2000 02:33:42 -0500 (EST)


John H. Fiebing, operating on a very limited budget and a vision,
started the Fiebing Chemical Company in 1895 after working in the
chemical department of Pfister & Vogel. At that particular time in
history, Milwaukee was one of the best cities to start a leather care
company as Milwaukee was built on the fact that it was the center for
buying, selling and trading various items to the areas Indians for furs
and then transported them to places such as Mackinac and Detroit. As
time passed, more and more people settled where the Milwaukee River
spilled into Lake Michigan. Many of the people settling in Milwaukee,
like John Fiebing, came from Germany.

One of the first products Fiebing manufactured was Saddle Soap. The
Saddle Soap soon became so popular that the U.S. Cavalry at Fort Riley,
Kansas was using great quantities of it to clean and preserve their
saddles, tack and other leather equipment. Fiebing products became so
familiar with the Cavalry that the company logo portrayed a mounted
Cavalryman, a logo that stands to this day.

In the early 1900's the demand for quality horse care and saddle care
products was booming as the horse was the main mode of transportation
throughout the country. Almost all working horses were equipped with
leather harnesses and leather saddles, all required constant care. This
also opened the opportunity for horse care products such as Hoof
Dressing, which has been a staple for a century.

The Fiebing Company has grown to become one of the largest manufacturers
of Leather Dye in the world. The Leather Dyes and Finishes are used by
saddle makers and Belt makers around the world. All of this led into the
variety of polishes, cleaners and conditioners that are currently
manufactured at the original site. The Fiebing Company also owns the
George J. Kelly Shoe Polish Company and the Snow Proof Company and all
of these products are manufactured in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

from Michigan


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The archives
Date: 13 Mar 2000 03:29:36 EST

John you don't know the meaning of Courtesy: Jumpin on people for askin a
question and others for answerin it ain't countess just because it had been
talk bout once before does not mean it cannot and should not be revisited, so
something else maybe added. Cutting off thread before it gets started is
rude. I owe you no courtesy until you so me some. if I'm a readin between the
lines right you don't like the way I post. Well, let me tell you something. I
am a dyslectic one finger typper that don't know nothing about computers that
graduated out of high school with a fourth grade reading a spelling ability.
I Have worked on it all my adult life my reading has improved from all the
reading I have done on the history of the fur trade. But my writing and
spelling skills still suck. So don't go whining to me how much work you put
into a post. But when it comes to mountain doins I'll shine in any Group.
Even you egg heads. I tried readin the Archives once had to wade through a
lot of bull OT get to any beef. So what should I do start at the top and read
my through to make sure I did not miss any thing that might come up.
{ That is the courtesy due those busy people who have taken the time } Thanks
For Taken my time this post has taken me three hours.

   Crazy Cyot

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The archives
Date: 13 Mar 2000 03:49:07 EST

Thanks for the post c'yote.  Enjoyed it.

john

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 13 Mar 2000 04:51:11 EST

I'm sorrey for out burst to list. John in joy your high horse you ride. I'm
quitting the list.

                                            see ya on the trail
                                            Crazy Cyot

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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Flag
Date: 13 Mar 2000 07:23:44 -0700

Allen,
Can you bring it with you to Fort Bridger? Could youre Wife make one that I
can purchase?
Ole #718
----------
>From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Flag
>Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000, 9:00 PM
>

>Hello the Camp,
>
>I'm sitting here looking at the (a?) AMM flag.  George sent it to me to have
>copied so that we can have one in the display.  As previously noted the top
>is a light sky blue, the middle green and the bottom a light brown.  The
>logo in the center has a blue field.  In green letters around the edge is
>the American Mountain Men.  The center of the logo is a powder horn and knife.
>
>Hope this helps.  My wife does banners and such and is going to copy this
>for the Pinedale exhibit.
>
>YMOS,
>
>Allen
>Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 13 Mar 2000 07:49:08 -0800

Crazy, don't let the rudeness of one or two people who take pleasure in
being less than civil and then bragging about it drive you into the very
action they seem to get their kicks from. For you to quit the list would
only give them the pleasure they can get no other way. Just ignore them or
tell to kiss your rosy red - then ignore them anyway.
Bill Cunningham
-----Original Message-----


>I'm sorrey for out burst to list. John in joy your high horse you ride. I'm
>quitting the list.
>
>                                            see ya on the trail
>                                            Crazy Cyot
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: "Poorboy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: Fw: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 13 Mar 2000 07:15:57 -0800




>poorboy---
>are you a member of the AMM?????   Have you ever been asked to join????
>has anyone said that they would sponser you????   dont understand your
>post or the reason for it.   Am I missing something in a previous post or
>something----what is your point in one sentence????

>dont want to be one of those obnoxious people or anything but?????
>dont really understand your post or the reason behind it?????what is RMFT
>persona---????


Klahowya Hawk,
You ask far too many questions to be answered in one sentence, but here
goes... No I am not a member, Yes I was asked years ago, No I did not accept
at that time.

I have already explained that I was not very impressed by the first AMM
members I experienced, but opinions and levels of wisdom change.
I apologize for even raising the membership question, I see now that it was
in poor taste on my part.
My post was intended to respond to a previous post  which I perceived to be
condescending to another concerning revisiting history.  The thread
developed and has now taken two lines.
The discussion then continued with posts concerning accuracy in historical
reenacting, the responsibility of reenactors to decide on a level of
authenticity, strive for that goal, and admit to themselves and others as to
that level.
In short, There is room for all of us in the way of life.  Some participate
to learn the skills only, some participate because they like to play dress
up, and some strive to recreate history as accurately as is possible given
there level of research.  All are OK, but each of us must be willing to
admit which level we are at and not pass ourselves off as another.
And yes you are right, I blew my own horn for a while, but then I have no
intention of blowing someone else's.  I enjoy listening to them make there
own kinds of beautiful music.


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From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Turkey Call
Date: 13 Mar 2000 09:48:19 -0600

Life in the city, I've mentioned the wildlife I've seen from my office
before (white-tailed deer, bald eagles, ducks, geese, fox), I can now
add turkeys to that list.  Saw about 12 of them between our building and
the river scratching around.  Noticed a couple of toms.  To bad it's
city, it'd be a great place to hunt.

Jim

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From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Mtn-Man FAQ
Date: 13 Mar 2000 08:20:13 -0800

John Kramer <[e-mail]> wrote:
This subject has been beat to death over and over in the archives.  Read
them.

Crazy Cyot <[e-mail]> replied:
I did not know when I came on this list that I had to study the archives
before I could try help someone with a question or study all the archives
before asking a question.

Gentlemen:
It sounds to me like we could use a FAQ--a list of Frequently-Asked
Questions, accompanied by links to their answers in the archives. New
list members could receive the FAQ as soon as they sign up, or be
politely referred to the FAQ if they ask a question that's on it. (I
checked with Dean Rudy, our list owner, and compiling a FAQ is okay with
him.) The FAQ wouldn't be the end of the discussion on the questions, but
rather, would keep people like John Kramer (and me, come to think of it)
from having to answer the same question over and over again.

It won't happen, though, unless we get a number of people (8-10) to
volunteer to be compilers. That way, each compiler would only have to
take a piece of our rather large archives.  John Kramer? Laura Rugel
Glise? Crazy Cyot? Lee Newbill? This could be a chance to make a
substantial contribution to the list. I'm willing to coordinate the whole
thing, or pass it on to somebody with more time and/or experience.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 13 Mar 2000 09:06:03 -0700

Crazy,
I agree with bill completly, don't quite.
Ole # 718
----------
>From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
>Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000, 8:49 AM
>

>Crazy, don't let the rudeness of one or two people who take pleasure in
>being less than civil and then bragging about it drive you into the very
>action they seem to get their kicks from. For you to quit the list would
>only give them the pleasure they can get no other way. Just ignore them or
>tell to kiss your rosy red - then ignore them anyway.
>Bill Cunningham
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Monday, March 13, 2000 1:52 AM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
>
>
>>I'm sorrey for out burst to list. John in joy your high horse you ride. I'm
>>quitting the list.
>>
>>                                            see ya on the trail
>>                                            Crazy Cyot
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>
>----------------------
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>

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From: Ronald Schrotter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Random thoughts
Date: 13 Mar 2000 08:15:25 -0800 (PST)

Crazy, don't quit the list over John. He has always
been a pain, but will cover your back in a heartbeat.
I have enjoyed your posts, as have many others.  Keep
it up!
Buck, thanks for the support on the flag.  I couldn't
remember the green stripe, but thought there might be
one.
Ole, will try to get to Bridgers birthday bash, but am
working nightshift so can make no promises.  Which day
would be best to catch you?
Rendezvous is still the best place of supply, but some
of the large ones can sure drive ya crazy.  It was
always the horse rides in that were the best part.
The experience gained and the friendship shared were
and are the best, and are still invaluable.  You learn
more about yourself and your brothers than you ever
will in camp.
Sorry to take up so much of the lists time, my
apologies to all.  Keep your nose to the wind and your
eyes on the skyline, Dog, GHB

__________________________________________________
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Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 13 Mar 2000 08:57:29 -0500

bill c:
what do you want for a pint--I usto use it in the tempering and hardening
of frizzens and springs---best there is---let me know the "bill de fair"
to include shipping---might be interested---

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Turkey Call
Date: 13 Mar 2000 09:51:16 -0500

CPT L.
stroke her light and at a slight angle to get it to pur and tap it at a
slight angle to get the cluck---for the lost hen just start the stroke
slow and speed up at the end of the stroke---BTW---which one did you
pick---the burl walnut or the fancy maple dark stained body---those were
the two i liked ---they all had good sounds out of them---shoot sharp and
send me a picture of that bird you get---and mix a few bb's with that
regular shot load for best results and further range---


    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Flag
Date: 13 Mar 2000 09:12:51 -0500

allen
what is the pinedale exhibit that you are speaking of---did the AMM
finaly get a place to displat their stuff---one of the members several
years ago was holding a bunch of stuff for it---

   "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce



On Sun, 12 Mar 2000 21:00:51 -0700 Allen Hall <[e-mail]> writes:
> Hello the Camp,
>
> I'm sitting here looking at the (a?) AMM flag.  George sent it to me
> to have
> copied so that we can have one in the display.  As previously noted
> the top
> is a light sky blue, the middle green and the bottom a light brown.
> The
> logo in the center has a blue field.  In green letters around the
> edge is
> the American Mountain Men.  The center of the logo is a powder horn
> and knife.
>
> Hope this helps.  My wife does banners and such and is going to copy
> this
> for the Pinedale exhibit.
>
> YMOS,
>
> Allen
> Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: Ronald Schrotter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: spectacles
Date: 13 Mar 2000 08:23:19 -0800 (PST)

I still have not gotten a reply as to the price of
specacles during the fur trade.  Anyone know?  I only
ask as I need mine so badly, and it must have been a
hardship for folks in those days.  Dog, GHB
__________________________________________________
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From:    "John Hunt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: AMM members
Date: 13 Mar 2000 11:32:17 -0500


     I have been a guest at several AMM National events. I was made to feel
at home by all members there. They are a friendly group.  I`ve stayed in the
AMM camp at Mississinewa. I ate their food and pulled from there jugs. I
brought things to share also. I was a guest of Dennis M. I ask question
about my gear. The inappropriate things were left at home or were changed to
meet their standards. Not a problem on my part. A friend and my self were
invited back by ALL members in the camp. If we had done wrong we would of
been corrected by our host. Members in the camp never criticized or
condemned us to my knowledge. When others were ask their opinion about
anything, foods, gear, clothing, ect, ect, they gave polite answers to help
us. As we talked on subjects that we knew nothing about we were shown how to
do various things by anyone we talked to.

     I`m sure there are grumpy and rude members as in ANY OTHER group, I`ve
never seen or met one yet.

     I`m not an AMM member. Do to circumstances beyond my control at this
time I wouldn`t be able to meet their obligations for membership. I wouldn`t
want to ask for membership and then let down my sponsors, their good
friends.

     My opinion!!!! If my gear is correct enough to go into an AMM camp then
I will be correct enough for  ANY CAMP of the fur trade time period.

     Nuff sed.


John (BIG JOHN) Hunt
Longhunter
Mountainman
southwest  Ohio


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Turkey Call/hunting
Date: 13 Mar 2000 11:46:48 EST


In a message dated 3/12/00 9:54:13 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< I don't know if it sounds as much like a turkey as

Steve does.  >>

Ho Capt.

Haaaaaa! ...... You could have heard me "YELPIN" at your camp all the way
from the Tacoma Dome!

<<His girls lost to my girls in the State Championship. LIONS

RULE! Sorry Steve, had to do it. <G>>>

The game was ours till the last 2 seconds when the "Kittens" threw the ball
in the general direction of the hoop and it fell in to tie the game....
Capt... it sure was sumtin to see.....<G>

Good meeting you boys too.... and sure liked that little flask ya had. See if
you can bang another one together for me (full) before you get much older and
feeble......

I forgot to ask you about the turkey hunting. You boys ever manage to poke
one of them critters with a muzzle loader? Are you usin your 20ga fusil and
if so what size shot/load? We're gonna be huntin up around Orient (NE WA)
....suppose to be a plague of turkeys round there... Gotta a cabin up there
too if you boys are tired of being cold and wet..... <G>

Ymos,
Steve





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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtn-Man FAQ
Date: 13 Mar 2000 11:47:28 -0500

angela
would also help if i can but i do not have accedd to the web using juno
as my e-mail methodology---some of the members of the list are in the
same boat---when i need to go on the internet i have to go to someone els
or whatever to research--- give me a subject and i will make you a FAQ
then you guys can read and correct my english and grammer and such will
have to do it in my spare time if i ever have any---

I understand where both of them are coming from as well as you do---we
seem to always being going back to the same subject and same answers on a
lot of things and after a point it gets rediculus posting and rewriting
the same thing ---I get to a point i dont have time to read the
extranious msg traffic it would truly help when someone would have a FAQ
to read that they could be refered to---on deans web site---solve a lot
of problems thats for sure along with the personal feelings if you wear
them on your sholder much---or try to read between the lines--

let me know your wishes---

YMHOSANT
     =+=
    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce


On Thu, 13 Mar 1980 08:20:13 -0800 Angela Gottfred
<[e-mail]> writes:
> John Kramer <[e-mail]> wrote:
> This subject has been beat to death over and over in the archives.
> Read
> them.
>
> Crazy Cyot <[e-mail]> replied:
> I did not know when I came on this list that I had to study the
> archives
> before I could try help someone with a question or study all the
> archives
> before asking a question.
>
> Gentlemen:
> It sounds to me like we could use a FAQ--a list of Frequently-Asked
> Questions, accompanied by links to their answers in the archives.
> New
> list members could receive the FAQ as soon as they sign up, or be
> politely referred to the FAQ if they ask a question that's on it. (I
>
> checked with Dean Rudy, our list owner, and compiling a FAQ is okay
> with
> him.) The FAQ wouldn't be the end of the discussion on the
> questions, but
> rather, would keep people like John Kramer (and me, come to think of
> it)
> from having to answer the same question over and over again.
>
> It won't happen, though, unless we get a number of people (8-10) to
> volunteer to be compilers. That way, each compiler would only have
> to
> take a piece of our rather large archives.  John Kramer? Laura Rugel
>
> Glise? Crazy Cyot? Lee Newbill? This could be a chance to make a
> substantial contribution to the list. I'm willing to coordinate the
> whole
> thing, or pass it on to somebody with more time and/or experience.
>
> Your humble & obedient servant,
> Angela Gottfred
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Turkey Call
Date: 13 Mar 2000 10:11:35 -0800

Hawk,

I guess I picked the one you describe as "fancy maple dark stained body". It
sure was a beaut'. I have played with it a bit and am getting some good
sounds (no experience so who am I to say what my sounds are like <G>) but I
will reread your suggestions and work on all. Thanks again and hopefully a
picture will be forthcoming. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Flag
Date: 13 Mar 2000 11:28:38 -0700

Hawk and others around the campfire,

The AMM has an exhibit that will be up and ready on April 1 of this year.
It will located in the Museum of the Mountain Man in Pinedale, WY.

We are trying to display some of the material culture of the mountain man,
specifically items that haven't survived but we know existed.  The display
has come along very nicely, and the vast majority of it are items made by
AMM members.

If you're ever out that way, check it out.  Some beautiful country and right
in the heart of the Horse Creek/Green River rendezvous area.  Fort Nonsense
is very nearby as well.

Allen Hall in Fort Hall country

At 09:12 AM 03/13/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>allen
>what is the pinedale exhibit that you are speaking of---did the AMM
>finaly get a place to displat their stuff---one of the members several
>years ago was holding a bunch of stuff for it---
>
>   "HAWK"
>Michael Pierce
>854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
>Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
>e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
>site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
>
>
>
>On Sun, 12 Mar 2000 21:00:51 -0700 Allen Hall <[e-mail]> writes:
>> Hello the Camp,
>>
>> I'm sitting here looking at the (a?) AMM flag.  George sent it to me
>> to have
>> copied so that we can have one in the display.  As previously noted
>> the top
>> is a light sky blue, the middle green and the bottom a light brown.
>> The
>> logo in the center has a blue field.  In green letters around the
>> edge is
>> the American Mountain Men.  The center of the logo is a powder horn
>> and knife.
>>
>> Hope this helps.  My wife does banners and such and is going to copy
>> this
>> for the Pinedale exhibit.
>>
>> YMOS,
>>
>> Allen
>> Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country
>>
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info:
>> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>________________________________________________________________
>YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
>Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
>Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
>----------------------
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>
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 13 Mar 2000 13:36:30 EST

Crazy, Don't fall into the trap that so many others have; we've lost some
great people like you because of the sometimes thoughtless words of a few
(the same ones who seem to have the talent to make people feel
unknowledgable, unwelcome or unqualified to join the AMM).  This is not the
majority. I am not in the AMM, but can tell you after having been on the
ground with them at Rendezvous, most of them will help you with any aspect of
the culture you need, and as was said about John, will protect your back at
all costs whent the chips are down.  Some of these 'boys' forget they too
were green once, and that they must have asked some questions that had
already been answered a hundred times before. Your posts are well thought out
and presented, and are appreciated by more of us than not. Looking forward to
seeing more of your input to the list.    Barney Fife

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtn-Man FAQ
Date: 13 Mar 2000 12:41:26 -0600

If you feel that there is anything I can do I would be more than happy to
assist. I have "gotten" a lot out of this list, It would please me greatly
to try and "give" something back to it if I were able.

northwoods


-----Original Message-----


>John Kramer <[e-mail]> wrote:
>This subject has been beat to death over and over in the archives.  Read
>them.
>
>Crazy Cyot <[e-mail]> replied:
>I did not know when I came on this list that I had to study the archives
>before I could try help someone with a question or study all the archives
>before asking a question.
>
>Gentlemen:
>It sounds to me like we could use a FAQ--a list of Frequently-Asked
>Questions, accompanied by links to their answers in the archives. New
>list members could receive the FAQ as soon as they sign up, or be
>politely referred to the FAQ if they ask a question that's on it. (I
>checked with Dean Rudy, our list owner, and compiling a FAQ is okay with
>him.) The FAQ wouldn't be the end of the discussion on the questions, but
>rather, would keep people like John Kramer (and me, come to think of it)
>from having to answer the same question over and over again.
>
>It won't happen, though, unless we get a number of people (8-10) to
>volunteer to be compilers. That way, each compiler would only have to
>take a piece of our rather large archives.  John Kramer? Laura Rugel
>Glise? Crazy Cyot? Lee Newbill? This could be a chance to make a
>substantial contribution to the list. I'm willing to coordinate the whole
>thing, or pass it on to somebody with more time and/or experience.
>
>Your humble & obedient servant,
>Angela Gottfred
>
>----------------------
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>


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From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Mtn-Man FAQ
Date: 13 Mar 2000 10:42:47 -0800

Angela
   I have for years cut and pasted the most interesting posts and kept them
in an ever growing archive of my own, loosely organized by topic. It must
run to 100 pages by now, using 8-point, double column type. Much of it, of
course, is personal stories and experiences, while some of it reports on
research. I would be glad to help with our FAQ. Your idea of divvying up the
topics makes sense. It will be an editing challenge to prune our FAQ for
length and reliability. I must admit at this time that I have at least a
year of recent postings to add to my archive; knowing that Dean's site keeps
this up has taken some of the heat off.
   Just the other week I read that my hinged lidded tin cup which I bought
in good faith from a trader is post-period (civil war) so you learn
something new every day. I've been meaning to ask for clarification on tin
styles but I have pretty much figured it out from ongoing traffic (tin
experts feel free to comment however). I mention this as an example of a
topic which would presumably have been in our FAQ, to give an example of its
value.
   YMOS
Pat Quilter

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 1980 8:20 AM


John Kramer <[e-mail]> wrote:
This subject has been beat to death over and over in the archives.  Read
them.

Crazy Cyot <[e-mail]> replied:
I did not know when I came on this list that I had to study the archives
before I could try help someone with a question or study all the archives
before asking a question.

Gentlemen:
It sounds to me like we could use a FAQ--a list of Frequently-Asked
Questions, accompanied by links to their answers in the archives. New
list members could receive the FAQ as soon as they sign up, or be
politely referred to the FAQ if they ask a question that's on it. (I
checked with Dean Rudy, our list owner, and compiling a FAQ is okay with
him.) The FAQ wouldn't be the end of the discussion on the questions, but
rather, would keep people like John Kramer (and me, come to think of it)
from having to answer the same question over and over again.

It won't happen, though, unless we get a number of people (8-10) to
volunteer to be compilers. That way, each compiler would only have to
take a piece of our rather large archives.  John Kramer? Laura Rugel
Glise? Crazy Cyot? Lee Newbill? This could be a chance to make a
substantial contribution to the list. I'm willing to coordinate the whole
thing, or pass it on to somebody with more time and/or experience.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: spectacles
Date: 13 Mar 2000 11:43:49 -0700


> I still have not gotten a reply as to the price of
> specacles during the fur trade.  Anyone know?  I only
> ask as I need mine so badly, and it must have been a
> hardship for folks in those days.  Dog, GHB

Hello Dog,
Trying giving the historian at Ft. Union 1828 a call at 701-572-9083 with
your question of availability and prices?
Walt
Park City, Montana


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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Turkey Call/hunting
Date: 13 Mar 2000 10:52:55 -0800

Steve,

I'm going to take this off list. <G> I'll contact you shortly. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtn-Man FAQ
Date: 13 Mar 2000 13:50:56 EST

Angela et al. I too would be willing to give something back to the list and
help with the FAQ project.  We could make short work of this if enough people
could help, and we had an 'overseer' to coordinate the project. I have looked
through the FAQs numerous times, and would need some direction to weed
through the change of headings, OT stuff, etc, but let me know what I can do.
  Ralph (Barney Fife) Rosen

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From: Miller Wayne S CW2 <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Animal fat as a patch lube?
Date: 13 Mar 2000 18:52:55 -0000

Hello the list,

I recently joined the list and have enjoyed the postings thus far.  I just
picked up a nice Sharon Hawken this weekend, and I thought I would try a
more "period correct" approach in shooting her.  With that in mind, what
kind of experiences do you fine folks have using either bear grease or mink
oil as a patch lube?  Track of The Wolf says it's the greatest thing since
sliced bread, but I haven't tried it.  Since I have both mink oil and bear
grease on the shelf, now would be a good time to try.  Any suggestions on
best method and amount to use?

V/R

Mossyrock


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From: Judy Tyler <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses???
Date: 13 Mar 2000 15:03:39 -0600

Cliff,
    Try      http://dogbert.abebooks.com/abe/IList
They had a used one for $17.50


At 02:39 PM 3/11/2000 PST, you wrote:
>I am looking for a copy of the book entitled "Primitive Indian Dresses," by
>Susan Fecteau.  I have searched Amazon and a few other places and have been
>unsuccesful.  Does anyone have a copy they would be interested in parting
>with, or is anyone aware of a source for the book???  Much thanks in
>advance.
>
>
>
>Cliff Tiffie
>PO Box 5089
>Durant, OK
>74702
>580-924-4187
>---------------------
>Aux Aliments de Pays!
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 13 Mar 2000 14:53:47 -0800

Hawk, I don't sell stuff - just give it out to friends who I think might
need something.
-----Original Message-----


>bill c:
>what do you want for a pint--I usto use it in the tempering and hardening
>of frizzens and springs---best there is---let me know the "bill de fair"
>to include shipping---might be interested---
>
>    "HAWK"
>Michael Pierce
>854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
>Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
>e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
>site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
>
>________________________________________________________________
>YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
>Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
>Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Animal fat as a patch lube?
Date: 13 Mar 2000 14:01:58 -0800

Mossyrock,

It was nice to meet you at the show. Now we got an idea of who we're talking
too. I use bear grease as a patch lube and it seems to work just fine. I may
experiment with some other things to see if I can get better accuracy than I
get but so far I have taken my share of meat with using bear grease or
whatever animal fat I have around.

All you can really do is experiment with your gun and load to see what works
best. If you want traditional, then any animal fat and many vegetable oils
were used and will work as well today as they did originally. Have fun with
your new gun, I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Random thoughts
Date: 13 Mar 2000 17:10:07 -0700

Dog,
I will be there friday night, all day saturday through till sundaypm.
Ole # 718
----------
>From: Ronald Schrotter <[e-mail]>
>To: hist list <[e-mail]>
>Subject: MtMan-List: Random thoughts
>Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000, 9:15 AM
>

>Crazy, don't quit the list over John. He has always
>been a pain, but will cover your back in a heartbeat.
>I have enjoyed your posts, as have many others.  Keep
>it up!
>Buck, thanks for the support on the flag.  I couldn't
>remember the green stripe, but thought there might be
>one.
>Ole, will try to get to Bridgers birthday bash, but am
>working nightshift so can make no promises.  Which day
>would be best to catch you?
>Rendezvous is still the best place of supply, but some
>of the large ones can sure drive ya crazy.  It was
>always the horse rides in that were the best part.
>The experience gained and the friendship shared were
>and are the best, and are still invaluable.  You learn
>more about yourself and your brothers than you ever
>will in camp.
>Sorry to take up so much of the lists time, my
>apologies to all.  Keep your nose to the wind and your
>eyes on the skyline, Dog, GHB
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
>http://im.yahoo.com
>
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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The archives
Date: 13 Mar 2000 16:39:28 -0800

Gazeing.....
Simmer down friend.  We all been jumped on a time er tow by some in an
unthink'n state.  Don't take it to heart.  We need yer kind on the
list.....the only fool question is the one that ain't been asked.....I know
you heard that one before. I've seen and used those "archives" and spent
hours pouring through various notes to find the answer to questions.
Frequently I find not all the questions have been asked.
Hope you stick around.
John Funk


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2000 12:29 AM


> John you don't know the meaning of Courtesy: Jumpin on people for askin a
> question and others for answerin it ain't countess just because it had
been
> talk bout once before does not mean it cannot and should not be revisited,
so
> something else maybe added. Cutting off thread before it gets started is
> rude. I owe you no courtesy until you so me some. if I'm a readin between
the
> lines right you don't like the way I post. Well, let me tell you
something. I
> am a dyslectic one finger typper that don't know nothing about computers
that
> graduated out of high school with a fourth grade reading a spelling
ability.
> I Have worked on it all my adult life my reading has improved from all the
> reading I have done on the history of the fur trade. But my writing and
> spelling skills still suck. So don't go whining to me how much work you
put
> into a post. But when it comes to mountain doins I'll shine in any Group.
> Even you egg heads. I tried readin the Archives once had to wade through a
> lot of bull OT get to any beef. So what should I do start at the top and
read
> my through to make sure I did not miss any thing that might come up.
> { That is the courtesy due those busy people who have taken the time }
Thanks
> For Taken my time this post has taken me three hours.
>
>    Crazy Cyot
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: FW: Questions'
Date: 13 Mar 2000 19:05:12 -0700


----------


Hello the Camp!
There is no such thing as a dumb question only dumb answers. I always
figured that if someone thinks enoug of your knowledge to ask a question it
should be taken as a compliment. As far as the last litle temper tantroms, I
take it all with a grain of salt, we all have good and bad days and sometime
in the future I will make an ass out of myself again.
I have said this before, I have known John Kramer for more years than I want
to think about and he is a kind and dear freind who would help any brother
that needed his help. I have also just met Cracy a couple of months back and
I found him to be made of the same stuff. Besides I like people that have
pasionate beliefs, espesialy if I can rattle there cage a litle.
Look on the posetive side  a new FAQ system is going to come out of this
thread.
YMOS
Ole # 718

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM members
Date: 13 Mar 2000 12:01:49 -0500

good words big john---you silver toung oritor---

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Flag
Date: 13 Mar 2000 21:05:49 -0700

I saw the AMM flag at the rendezvous last summer. It was hoisted near the
trade tent area. So someone must know where it is. The question is, can
we reproduce it for display at our personal camps.

Todd Glover
________________________________________________________________
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Crazy -vs- Kramer Fracas
Date: 13 Mar 2000 21:35:05 -0700

Gentlemen,

I picturing a bunch of trappers with winter camp fever sitting around the
fire squabbling over next to nothing. It'd kinda fun to watch at first,
but if you aren't careful can soon escalate to circling with drawn
knives.

I feel partly responsible, because I believe it was my comments about
whale oil that John referred to as "braggadocio." Well, I been around
this list nigh four years or more and so didn't take any offense to Johns
words myself.

Now don't either one of you go and think about pullin your stakes on this
trappers e-mail camp. Both of you have good things to say and valued
opinions.

We've had us some good fracas' now and then. Just ask ole Hawk Pierce his
opinion on CVA rifles! Yoouuuuuwwwzaaaa!!! Talk about tossin a spark near
the powder keg! That one raged for days and got kinda ugly.

Time to sit back now and enjoy the fire and dream of many beaver...


"Teton" Todd D. Glover
Poison River Party Pilgrim




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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Crazy -vs- Kramer Fracas
Date: 14 Mar 2000 00:09:20 EST

> I picturing a bunch of trappers with winter camp fever sitting around the
>  fire squabbling over next to nothing. It'd kinda fun to watch at first,
>  but if you aren't careful can soon escalate to circling with drawn
>  knives.

I been gone fer a few months.  You guys was squabblin' when I left.  Don't
know if it ever ended or if this is a new one.

Some of the rest of you might be having the problem I had, so I am going to
pass it on.  A while back, I quit receiving messages from this list.  I
figgered it was just slow, so I didn't think much about it.  I posted a test
message and it didn't come back to me but several others responded to me off
list.  For some reason, the only messages I received from the list were Lee
Newbill's.  Now he was quoting other, so I figgered that there must be
something going on, but couldn't figger out what.

I contacted Dean, and he said I was subscribed.  I tried resubscribing again,
and the server said I was already subscribed.  Yet I was receiving no mail
from the list.

Now, we used to be subscribed to hist_text@ xmission.com.  Now we are
subscribed to [e-mail].  I think the list got put on a
new server and most were transferred over.  I seem to have been stuck on the
old server for some reason.  I resubscribed to the list with this email
address and started receiving mail again.  I used the form on the website to
subscribe.

In the process, I received two different Welcome messages.  One said that
this was a moderated list, and the other said it was unmoderated.  I don't
know which it is, but I just resubscribed again with my old email address and
am now starting to get mail there.  A couple of other guys told me offlist
that they were having the same problems.  The cure seems to be to unsubscribe
and then resubscribe using the form on the website.  The URL is found at the
bottom of each email received from the list.

Anyway, I will be popping back in again soon.  I see that Angella is back and
that John Kramer is still contributing valuable info to the list.  His
"search the archives" suggestion is one which I will have to do, because it
seems that I have a few months of postings to catch up on.  C'est la vie.

Dave Kanger

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From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Crazy -vs- Kramer Fracas
Date: 13 Mar 2000 21:15:03 -0800 (PST)

On Tue, 14 Mar 2000 [e-mail] wrote:
> A while back, I quit receiving messages from this list. <sniparoo>
> Dave Kanger

Dang.

He found us again <G>

Welcome back Dave!

Your Most Obedient Servant...

Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho
Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders
http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill


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From: "Steven Lester" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: percussion tubes
Date: 13 Mar 2000 23:56:03 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Excuse me for barging in, but I've been lurking around the list for a =
while tryin' to learn something about anything! My name is Steve Lester =
and I live in the Nevada desert country. I 'm new to buckskinin' and =
muzzleloading and participated in my first shoot this past weekend and =
truly enjoyed myself and the good people at Eagle Valley Muzzleloaders.
  While reading Osborne Russells " Journal of A Trapper"  I read about =
him having to cut a hunt short because his partner blew out a percussion =
tube and they had to return to camp to make a new one. Im curious about =
how the tubes were made!

------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BF8D47.B057C600
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#e6e6e6>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Excuse me for barging in, but I've been lurking =
around the=20
list for a while tryin' to learn something about anything! My name is =
Steve=20
Lester and I live in the Nevada desert country. I 'm new to buckskinin' =
and=20
muzzleloading and participated in my first shoot this past weekend and =
truly=20
enjoyed myself and the good people at Eagle Valley=20
Muzzleloaders.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>  While reading Osborne Russells =
" Journal of A=20
Trapper" </FONT> <FONT size=3D2>I read about him having to cut a =
hunt short=20
because his partner blew out a percussion tube and they had to return to =
camp to=20
make a new one. Im curious about how the tubes were=20
made!</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BF8D47.B057C600--


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 13 Mar 2000 23:38:39 -0800

bill if you can spare a bit to be used to temper frizzens with i would
highly appreciate it and swap you a turkey call for it if that is
acceptable---

YMHOSANT
   =+=
HAWK
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

On Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:53:47 -0800 [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
writes:
> Hawk, I don't sell stuff - just give it out to friends who I think
> might
> need something.

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Flag
Date: 13 Mar 2000 23:03:24 -0800

allen hall---
glad the guys have a place to display stuff ---we tried to get a museum
built several years ago---mid 70's---who owns the place you speak of and
what is the deal with the exhabit---have a lot of original stuff put back
but dont intend it to go to anything or anyone who wont enjoy it as much
as i do---people say I should open a museum with the stuff i have been
collecting old junk since i was a kid ---old man told me to collect stuff
with history behind it---and have done that---many items too interesting
to mention---is there anything that you are looking for---might be able
to help out ---is the display a perminant thing or a temporary loan type
of deal---give me more info off line about what is happening with
it---might be able to help if it is the right situation---

YMHOSANT
  =+=
HAWK
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: liver tanning
Date: 14 Mar 2000 08:09:41 -0600

    On one of those TV antique appraisal show, I heard an 'expert' mention
that a particular Indian artifact may have been "liver tanned".
    Does anyone know anything about liver tanning. I have never heard of
this. Does liver do the same, as good, job as brain tanning.
    Livers are larger and easier to acquire than brains.  Can any liver be
used? Example: can beef liver be used in deer hides?
    Any input on this would be helpful.
Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas


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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Flag
Date: 14 Mar 2000 07:33:55 -0700

Todd,
Allen has the flag and is bringing it to bridger this week.
YMOS
Ole
----------
>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Flag
>Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000, 9:05 PM
>

>I saw the AMM flag at the rendezvous last summer. It was hoisted near the
>trade tent area. So someone must know where it is. The question is, can
>we reproduce it for display at our personal camps.
>
>Todd Glover
>________________________________________________________________
>YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
>Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
>Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: FW: To think about!
Date: 14 Mar 2000 07:58:22 -0700


----------


Hello the camp,
Think about this,
1. most trappers had a horse they would ride along with 1,2 or 3 pack
animals.
The reason for the pack animals was not to pack in, it was to pack out
(furs). There for a trapper in a party caries in equipment and provisions
for the fall and spring trapping season and when he takes his furs to
market, he cached all the unnesecary stuff where he can reclaim it for the
next years season.
2. Unless a trapping party was in danger during the trapping season, they
would prety much stay in the same area until in was spring.
3. The majority of trapping was done by Indians and hides were traded at
forts owned by diferent concerns the bigest two were American fur and HBC.
The statements I have just made will only be held dear to me until someone
straightens me out.
YMOS
Ole # 718

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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:02:15 -0600
Date: 14 Mar 2000 07:58:06 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF8D93.FE04CE60
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

http://www.odinscastle.org/index.html

There are some interesting links on this web page.  Paul has done a huge =
amount of work, mainly on midievel
times, but there is a lot of 18th century American history there.  Check =
it out.
Lanney Ratcliff

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF8D93.FE04CE60
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.odinscastle.org/index.html">http://www.odinscastle.org=
/index.html</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There are some interesting links on this web page.  Paul has =
done a=20
huge amount of work, mainly on midievel</DIV>
<DIV>times, but there is a lot of 18th century American history =
there. =20
Check it out.</DIV>
<DIV>Lanney Ratcliff</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF8D93.FE04CE60--


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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fw:
Date: 14 Mar 2000 09:06:21 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BF8D94.90FAE060
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

...er, 19th century America.  Oops.


http://www.odinscastle.org/index.html

There are some interesting links on this web page.  Paul has done a huge =
amount of work, mainly on midievel
times, but there is a lot of 18th century American history there.  Check =
it out.
Lanney Ratcliff

------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BF8D94.90FAE060
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT size=3D3>...er, 19th century =
America. =20
Oops.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.odinscastle.org/index.html">http://www.odinscastle.org=
/index.html</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There are some interesting links on this web page.  Paul has =
done a=20
huge amount of work, mainly on midievel</DIV>
<DIV>times, but there is a lot of 18th century American history =
there. =20
Check it out.</DIV>
<DIV>Lanney Ratcliff</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BF8D94.90FAE060--


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From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: spectacles
Date: 14 Mar 2000 09:49:54 -0700

Eye glasses and Spectacles address;

Alan McBrayer
2420 Hatherly Road
Charlotte, NC  28209

Range from $35 to $100


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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 14 Mar 2000 11:51:28 -0800

Piece of cake. Look for a bottle in the mail.
-----Original Message-----


>bill if you can spare a bit to be used to temper frizzens with i would
>highly appreciate it and swap you a turkey call for it if that is
>acceptable---
>
>YMHOSANT
>   =+=
>HAWK
>Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
>854 Glenfield Dr.
>Palm Harbor florida 34684
>E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
>http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
>
>On Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:53:47 -0800 [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
>writes:
>> Hawk, I don't sell stuff - just give it out to friends who I think
>> might
>> need something.
>
>________________________________________________________________
>YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
>Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
>Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
>----------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: liver tanning
Date: 14 Mar 2000 12:02:21 -0800

Here's what you do. Take a quantity of liver that equals one half of the
brain you are using. Prepare the brain in your favorite way, then mash it up
with the liver. Mix it in a five gallon plastic bucket with enough water to
make a slurry that will cover your hide. You can put up to three hides in
the bucket. (When you scrape the hide, if you don't get all the scarf skin,
don't worry too much about it - just do the best you can-the liver will do
the rest). Using rubber gloves (the mix will give you blood poisoning in
even the smallest cut or nick on your hands) take a stout stick and stir the
mix and hide about pretty good once an hour during the day. Let it soak
overnight. In the morning pull out the hide (using rubber gloves!) and slick
the mess off it. Tie it into a frame (parachute cord works well for this as
you can untie the knots in winter weather). Pick up a double fist size river
rock or something like it unless you prefer a hammer or hoe, and have a go
at overstriking the hide, covering every inch on both sides. When you have
finished there will be no "buttons" and no scarf skin "freckles."  All that
remains is to smoke it. If the hide doesn't process right, put it back in
the bucket and process it there again. What happens is that the liver has an
enzymatic action that actually breaks down the glue. During soaking it
sublimates through the hide in a sideways motion as it soaks in. Make the
job easier. If you really get with it, you can process 4 to 8 deer hides a
day or 1 to 2 elk hides. Let me know how you make out.
Bill C
-----Original Message-----


>    On one of those TV antique appraisal show, I heard an 'expert' mention
>that a particular Indian artifact may have been "liver tanned".
>    Does anyone know anything about liver tanning. I have never heard of
>this. Does liver do the same, as good, job as brain tanning.
>    Livers are larger and easier to acquire than brains.  Can any liver be
>used? Example: can beef liver be used in deer hides?
>    Any input on this would be helpful.
>Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: liver tanning
Date: 14 Mar 2000 13:55:10 EST

Bill....I've got a couple raw beaver hides I'd like to tan with the hair on.
Sounds like the liver/brain would make the hair slip. Any ideas?
Ymos, Steve

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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: liver tanning
Date: 14 Mar 2000 13:28:44 -0800

Nary a one! I've never used the liver on hair on, though I've been tempted.
It might work, but I'd try it on a rabbit or something I didn't care about
first.
-----Original Message-----


>Bill....I've got a couple raw beaver hides I'd like to tan with the hair
on.
>Sounds like the liver/brain would make the hair slip. Any ideas?
>Ymos, Steve
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: MtMan-List: Elk Pants
Date: 14 Mar 2000 13:35:32 -0700 (MST)



Have a pair of Elk Hide Pants/Trouser
that no longer fit due to weight reduction.

Would like to sell.  E-mail me off list for details


@

[e-mail]

--
A.K.A.  Penny Pincher




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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: animal fat as patch lube
Date: 14 Mar 2000 14:50:50 -0600

    Good question and one that most ask at one time or another.
    I have used a bunch of different lubes over the years, modern
store-bought, my own concoctions including many formulas for 'moose milk',
and different animal fats.
    Hard to say which is 'best'. I have used whale oil [many years ago,
don't want to start that argument again], bear grease and others. The
absolute worst is chicken fat. Take my word for it, don't try it.  A lot of
the animal fats, rendered, are OK in warm weather but get too hard when cold
to be practical for use.
    Like Lathi said, try different ones, find one you like.  Most will work
to a lesser or better degree. I mostly use a mixture of paraffin or beeswax
and whatever other veggy oil suits my fancy at the time.
Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas


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From: "Matthew Porter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Advice for a beginner.
Date: 14 Mar 2000 17:05:00 -0600

Hello round the fire,
    I need some help from you folks.  I have joined this discussion and I
have also made some posts but now it is time for me to really get involved,
you see I'm not a skinner yet.  I want to start out on the right foot so for
the past 3 years I have been doing all the research I can.  I need help
putting together an outfit.  I want to portray a company man that has
recently left St. Louis.  My reason for this is that if he recently left St.
Louis, then he might still be wearing his fabric clothing.  I now that most
free trappers wore mostly leather and skins.  Leather and skins is a little
too hot down here in Arkansas and fabrics are cheaper (I don't know how to
brain tan yet).  I already have a .32 cal. plains rifle that my uncle made
and gave to me so that cuts down expenses considerably (I later want to get
a larger caliber poor boy rifle).  I am also thinking about joining a local
group called the Early Arkansaw Reenactors Association (If anyone on the
list is a member please respond).  Thanks for the time away from your busy
schedules.

YMOS
Matt
  Porter


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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Advice for a beginner.
Date: 14 Mar 2000 15:44:52 -0800

Matt,

Welcome. One of the first pieces of advice you might get would be to pour
over the BofB series put out by the publishers of Muzzle Loader Mag. Then
you might take a look ( a careful look) at some of the Mountain Man Sketch
Books, particularly the latest one "Sketch Book 1837" I think is what it is
called. If that don't show you what the well dressed company man out of St.
Lou was wearing then for starters I'll offer my opinion.

You would probably be wearing a simple cotton or linen hand sewn shirt with
front slit to chest and moderate collar, full sleeves and cuffed. That would
be stuffed into a pair of heavy cotton or linen hand sewn knee britches or
tight legged pantaloons. Both would be more form fitting than in colonial
times with a two button drop front fly or less commonly a button fly. The
pantaloons might have a self strap under the arch of your foot. Over the
shirt you might have a hand sewn waist length vest of wool or heavy linen.
Over that you might be wearing a fitted wool coat for colder weather (called
a frock coat) with lapels and collar and flap covered pockets. On your feet
if you had the funds you might be wearing hand made lace up boots of
moderate height or mocs of the vamp/puckertoe design if you could not afford
boots or if you were a bit more woods wise. You would have a light colored
low crown hat of modest brim width on your head. And probably be in the
custom of wearing a scarf about your neck as a cravat.

You would carry your bed and worldly belongings in a bed roll carried behind
on one strap across your chest and opposite your ball bag and horn. You
might have a haversack with misc. items in it hung from a strap on the
opposite side of your bullet bag. You'd have a simple butcher knife in a
simple sheath on a fairly narrow belt along with a poled hatchet. One of the
first leather items you would acquire would be brain tanned leggings to
protect those hard to come by cloth pantaloons or knee britches. Well, in my
opinion, your looking pretty good to me. <G> I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Advice for a beginner.
Date: 14 Mar 2000 18:07:08 -0600

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186/bp4.htm
Mathew,
Click on the address above, which will take you to Lee Newbill's web =
site, specifically the "getting started" section.  There is some mighty =
good advice there.  Good luck and, above all, have fun.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff

----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 5:05 PM


> Hello round the fire,
>     I need some help from you folks.  I have joined this discussion =
and I
> have also made some posts but now it is time for me to really get =
involved,
> you see I'm not a skinner yet.  I want to start out on the right foot =
so for
> the past 3 years I have been doing all the research I can.  I need =
help
> putting together an outfit.  I want to portray a company man that has
> recently left St. Louis.  My reason for this is that if he recently =
left St.
> Louis, then he might still be wearing his fabric clothing.  I now that =
most
> free trappers wore mostly leather and skins.  Leather and skins is a =
little
> too hot down here in Arkansas and fabrics are cheaper (I don't know =
how to
> brain tan yet).  I already have a .32 cal. plains rifle that my uncle =
made
> and gave to me so that cuts down expenses considerably (I later want =
to get
> a larger caliber poor boy rifle).  I am also thinking about joining a =
local
> group called the Early Arkansaw Reenactors Association (If anyone on =
the
> list is a member please respond).  Thanks for the time away from your =
busy
> schedules.
>=20
> YMOS
> Matt
>   Porter
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: advice for Mathew Porter
Date: 14 Mar 2000 18:39:14 -0600

Mathew
Here is the entire text of the letter to newcomers that is included in =
edited form in Lee Newbill's web page. Take it as I originally wrote it =
several years ago, as a guide for a newcomer, not a bible to be held as =
holy writ.  It's just advice.
Don't hesitate to ask the history list for help.  You will find that =
most members here are generous with their time and good advice.  Most of =
all, continue to do you own research, reading first or second person =
accounts whenever possible.  Trappers' journals are wonderful and some =
can be accessed on Dean's web page as can an enourmous amount of other =
good information.  Just click on the address at the bottom of this post. =
  There is a huge archive of past correspondence there, too.  Work those =
like a gold mine.=20
Try to avoid relying wholly on books that offer more opinion than =
verifiable facts.  Check out the bibliography at the end of any good =
article.  There will usually be  another gold mine of books and other =
references to look up and study.
Finally, lots of "facts" are, in fact, "rendezvous lore" that were =
inaccurate to begin with, and have been passed from one person to =
another so much that they have developed an aura of authenticity that is =
undeserved.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff




Letter to Newcomers
By Lanney Ratcliff

I have given the same advice to numerous pilgrims. DO NOT SPEND A BUNCH =
OF MONEY TO GO TO YOUR FIRST RENDEZVOUS!!

A weekend pre-1840 club rendezvous will have a multitude of different =
styles of dress, accoutrements, shelters, guns --- everything---for you =
to see. Call a club member (preferably an officer) and ask that person =
to put you in contact with a club member (s) near your home. Visit with =
that person and find out more particulars about that club. Ask him to =
help you outfit yourself in a "generic", lowcost set of clothes. Find =
out if a pair of boots or moccasins you might already own is acceptable =
at that club's doin's. That sort of thing.

You might spend $12 on Book of Buckskinning Vol.1 and read it. It will =
give you a reasonably useable overview of buckskinning. However, don't =
make the mistake of treating it as holy writ...just a guide. Contact =
Scurlock Publishing Co. Inc, Dept B7, Rt 5, Box 347-M, Texarkana, Texas =
75501, 800-228-6389.

Most clubs are pretty forgiving of newcomers and visitors so long as =
they display the right spirit and show up in a reasonably acceptable =
outfit. Some clubs have a supply of clothes to loan to a pilgrim, =
although you might find most of the loaners to be outgrown kids' stuff. =
At any rate, a first timer's clothes should be as non-specific as =
possible---something just about anyone would have worn in the time from =
about 1840 back to the turn of the eighteenth century...cloth trousers, =
cotton pullover, dropshoulder shirt, wide leather belt with a simple =
buckle and (at most rendezvous) round or square toe, low heel leather =
boots with the tops kept under the trouser bottoms, or moccasins.

Get a natural colored canvas haversack to carry a spoon, a tin pie plate =
and a tin (or plain crockery) cup. Avoid blue, green, red or any other =
color speckled enamel ware. Period.

People will darn near compete to feed you (if you're not a jerk or =
something), but it is considered good manners to provide your own place =
setting, as it were. Ask your club contact his advice on a bedroll and =
to help you find someone you can camp with. A good wool blanket rolled =
into an 8X8 or 10X10 square of white canvas with a smaller canvas ground =
cloth is a good start. Find out how to set a diamond shelter with the =
square of canvas or stretch it over a rope or wooden ridgepole to make a =
simple "A" frame tent.

Most clubs allow very nearly anything in a camp so long as it is kept =
covered--completely-- and will permit a car in camp for a short time to =
unload on Friday (or even early Saturday). So don't be shy about =
bringing a cooler with drinks and fresh food and a sleeping pad of some =
sort.

Bring food that doesn't need to be cooked or that can be cooked simply =
(on a stick) over a fire. Wander around camp and observe the various =
cooks in action, and come better equipped next time.

Don't buy a gun before going to rendezvous for the first time. If you =
must carry somethig, carry a walking staff. It will make you look a =
little like Moses and costs essentially nothing. There will be guns =
there of every description and if you let it be known that you would =
like to talk about guns, you will find people falling all over =
themselves to talk about guns, to show you theirs and to let you shoot =
them.

Talk with these same people about their clothes and why they dress the =
way they do. You will soon see the various times and places that are =
represented. If one particular style appeals to you, find out all you =
can about that style...is it actually period and, if so, specifically =
when and where that style of dress was common. If you are certain that =
you have found a suitable style of dress, find out what gun would be =
appropriate to carry. Don't make this decision in haste. Take your =
time...your generic stuff will always be correct.

When you are resonably certain about a particular style, do the research =
necessary to get yourself a good, sturdy, not too showey outfit. Then =
concern yourself about a gun. If you decide , for instance, that the =
French & Indian War period (1756) is where your interest lies, you don't =
want to suddenly remember that you already spent a small fortune on a =
top quality percussion mountain rifle suitable for the Rocky Mountains =
in the 1830's. Then you will have to once again explain to She Who Must =
Be Obeyed how important it is for you to spend $1200 on a gun that only =
shoots once. Waugh!! (you CAN buy excellent guns for a lot less than =
$1200, by the way). However, when you have decided...for sure...where =
your interest lies, then buy the best gun your purse will allow. In =
fact, strain it a little. Avoid cheap goods---always.

Ask the people with the best guns where they got theirs and if the same =
gunmaker's name keeps coming up go find that gunmaker. Even then, don't =
rush to buy a gun. Look at a pile of them before buying one--find out =
what a good gun is and buy the best you can afford. If someone tries =
really hard to sell you a particular gun be aware that he probably is =
more interested in selling you what he is trying to get rid of rather =
than trying to sell you what you need.

Make yourself acquainted with longtime members and ask each of them =
about their buckskinner library. Get a list of commonly recommended =
books (get the title, author and ISBN number---your bookseller will =
thank you) and build a quality library. Don't let anybody tell you that =
the complete set of Book of Buckskinning is all you need. Get them, for =
sure, but don't stop there.

Pardon my long winded reply to your query. I hope you find some good =
guidance in your pursuit of this truly wonderful hobby---that's what it =
is, you know. However,if you are lucky you will find yourself making =
buckskinning an integral part of your lifestyle, your daily conduct, =
even your home's decor. You will find that you will have greater =
confidence and pride in yourself and your abilities. Most people are too =
timid to do what you will soon be able to do without thinking twice.

Good Luck,
Lanney Ratcliff

> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html



----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Advice for a beginner.
Date: 14 Mar 2000 17:47:28 -0800

That is as fine a description/piece of advice as I recall ever seeing. The
only thing I might add would be that the leather leggings could also be of
factory tanned leather or, more rarely, even pieces of left over heavy
fabric.
Bill C
-----Original Message-----


>Matt,
>
>Welcome. One of the first pieces of advice you might get would be to pour
>over the BofB series put out by the publishers of Muzzle Loader Mag. Then
>you might take a look ( a careful look) at some of the Mountain Man Sketch
>Books, particularly the latest one "Sketch Book 1837" I think is what it is
>called. If that don't show you what the well dressed company man out of St.
>Lou was wearing then for starters I'll offer my opinion.
>
>You would probably be wearing a simple cotton or linen hand sewn shirt with
>front slit to chest and moderate collar, full sleeves and cuffed. That
would
>be stuffed into a pair of heavy cotton or linen hand sewn knee britches or
>tight legged pantaloons. Both would be more form fitting than in colonial
>times with a two button drop front fly or less commonly a button fly. The
>pantaloons might have a self strap under the arch of your foot. Over the
>shirt you might have a hand sewn waist length vest of wool or heavy linen.
>Over that you might be wearing a fitted wool coat for colder weather
(called
>a frock coat) with lapels and collar and flap covered pockets. On your feet
>if you had the funds you might be wearing hand made lace up boots of
>moderate height or mocs of the vamp/puckertoe design if you could not
afford
>boots or if you were a bit more woods wise. You would have a light colored
>low crown hat of modest brim width on your head. And probably be in the
>custom of wearing a scarf about your neck as a cravat.
>
>You would carry your bed and worldly belongings in a bed roll carried
behind
>on one strap across your chest and opposite your ball bag and horn. You
>might have a haversack with misc. items in it hung from a strap on the
>opposite side of your bullet bag. You'd have a simple butcher knife in a
>simple sheath on a fairly narrow belt along with a poled hatchet. One of
the
>first leather items you would acquire would be brain tanned leggings to
>protect those hard to come by cloth pantaloons or knee britches. Well, in
my
>opinion, your looking pretty good to me. <G> I remain....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: animal fat as patch lube
Date: 14 Mar 2000 17:52:46 -0800

As a law enforcement officer years ago I learned that if you regularly kept
the weapon clean with hot water, then thoroughly dried, it needed no oil at
all. All those white glove inspections of firearms were to see if the
inspector could get even the tiniest smudge on those fine white gloves. .
.if he did you had had it. Using hot water and thorough drying there was
never a speck of rust.
-----Original Message-----


>    Good question and one that most ask at one time or another.
>    I have used a bunch of different lubes over the years, modern
>store-bought, my own concoctions including many formulas for 'moose milk',
>and different animal fats.
>    Hard to say which is 'best'. I have used whale oil [many years ago,
>don't want to start that argument again], bear grease and others. The
>absolute worst is chicken fat. Take my word for it, don't try it.  A lot of
>the animal fats, rendered, are OK in warm weather but get too hard when
cold
>to be practical for use.
>    Like Lathi said, try different ones, find one you like.  Most will work
>to a lesser or better degree. I mostly use a mixture of paraffin or beeswax
>and whatever other veggy oil suits my fancy at the time.
>Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: costs
Date: 14 Mar 2000 19:46:12 EST

Okay guys,
I need a favor.  I need to know how much a beaver trap would have run for in
around 1810, or the early 1800s.
Thanks,
Rick

----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Advice for a beginner.
Date: 14 Mar 2000 17:10:31 -0800

Bill,

Thanks for the support. I agree with your addition just wasn't sure what to
suggest as an alternative to BT that is available today.
What kind of factory tanned leather are you referring to? Might as well give
Matt our best. <G> I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Douglas Hepner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Elk Pants
Date: 14 Mar 2000 19:02:26 -0600

What size? How big were you?

YMOS
"Dull Hawk"
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 2:35 PM


>
>
> Have a pair of Elk Hide Pants/Trouser
> that no longer fit due to weight reduction.
>
> Would like to sell.  E-mail me off list for details
>
>
> @
>
> [e-mail]
>
> --
> A.K.A.  Penny Pincher
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>


----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Elk Pants
Date: 14 Mar 2000 18:31:25 -0700 (MST)




Waist was for a 36,37, 38 Kind of Guy

Leg Inseem was 34

I only worn them when i bought them,
and went on a Diet.

It worked

Pp
>
>What size? How big were you?
>
>YMOS
>"Dull Hawk"
>----- Original Message -----
>From: BRUCE S. DE LIS <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 2:35 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Elk Pants
>
>
>>
>>
>> Have a pair of Elk Hide Pants/Trouser
>> that no longer fit due to weight reduction.
>>
>> Would like to sell.  E-mail me off list for details
>>
>>
>> @
>>
>> [e-mail]
>>
>> --
>> A.K.A.  Penny Pincher
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>

--
A.K.A.  Penny Pincher




----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: price of a beaver trap
Date: 14 Mar 2000 21:09:33 EST

does anyone know the price of a beaver trap around 1810 in st.louis are
anywere nearby stlouis.also is there a web site for morgans store in
kaskaskia are any other store like his .looking for what the store carriedand
cost.

traphand
[e-mail]
rick petzoldt

----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Elk Pants
Date: 14 Mar 2000 18:07:31 -0800

Heck with the pants...what diet did you go on!  <VBG>

Frank (also a 38 guy)


"BRUCE S. DE LIS" wrote:

> Waist was for a 36,37, 38 Kind of Guy
>
> Leg Inseem was 34
>
> I only worn them when i bought them,
> and went on a Diet.
>
> It worked
>
> Pp
> >
> >What size? How big were you?
> >
> >YMOS
> >"Dull Hawk"
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: BRUCE S. DE LIS <[e-mail]>
> >To: <[e-mail]>
> >Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 2:35 PM
> >Subject: MtMan-List: Elk Pants
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Have a pair of Elk Hide Pants/Trouser
> >> that no longer fit due to weight reduction.
> >>
> >> Would like to sell.  E-mail me off list for details
> >>
> >>
> >> @
> >>
> >> [e-mail]
> >>
> >> --
> >> A.K.A.  Penny Pincher
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------
> >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> >
>
> --
> A.K.A.  Penny Pincher
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Elk Pants
Date: 14 Mar 2000 20:18:01 -0600

I asked him the same thing.  You don't want to know.
Lanney Ratcliff
----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 8:07 PM


> Heck with the pants...what diet did you go on!  <VBG>
>=20
> Frank (also a 38 guy)
>=20
>=20
> "BRUCE S. DE LIS" wrote:
>=20
> > Waist was for a 36,37, 38 Kind of Guy
> >
> > Leg Inseem was 34
> >
> > I only worn them when i bought them,
> > and went on a Diet.
> >
> > It worked
> >
> > Pp
> > >
> > >What size? How big were you?
> > >
> > >YMOS
> > >"Dull Hawk"
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: BRUCE S. DE LIS <[e-mail]>
> > >To: <[e-mail]>
> > >Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 2:35 PM
> > >Subject: MtMan-List: Elk Pants
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Have a pair of Elk Hide Pants/Trouser
> > >> that no longer fit due to weight reduction.
> > >>
> > >> Would like to sell.  E-mail me off list for details
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> @
> > >>
> > >> [e-mail]
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> A.K.A.  Penny Pincher
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ----------------------
> > >> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >----------------------
> > >hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > A.K.A.  Penny Pincher
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Elk Pants
Date: 14 Mar 2000 19:19:55 -0700 (MST)




USMC Boot Camp Diet..

Three Times A Day....

1 Hard Boild Egg
1 Slice Wheat Bread
1 Level Ice Cream Scoop cottage Cheeze
1 1/3 Qt Skim Milk..

three times a day...

>
>Heck with the pants...what diet did you go on!  <VBG>
>
>Frank (also a 38 guy)
>
>
>"BRUCE S. DE LIS" wrote:
>
>> Waist was for a 36,37, 38 Kind of Guy
>>
>> Leg Inseem was 34
>>
>> I only worn them when i bought them,
>> and went on a Diet.
>>
>> It worked
>>
>> Pp
>> >
>> >What size? How big were you?
>> >
>> >YMOS
>> >"Dull Hawk"
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: BRUCE S. DE LIS <[e-mail]>
>> >To: <[e-mail]>
>> >Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 2:35 PM
>> >Subject: MtMan-List: Elk Pants
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Have a pair of Elk Hide Pants/Trouser
>> >> that no longer fit due to weight reduction.
>> >>
>> >> Would like to sell.  E-mail me off list for details
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> @
>> >>
>> >> [e-mail]
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> A.K.A.  Penny Pincher
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----------------------
>> >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >----------------------
>> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>> >
>> >
>>
>> --
>> A.K.A.  Penny Pincher
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>

--
A.K.A.  Penny Pincher




----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Advice for a beginner.
Date: 14 Mar 2000 20:36:59 -0800

It is still possible to get vegetable tanned - pricey, but available. Joe
Brandl could probably give a source if he doesn't have it himself.
Bill
-----Original Message-----


>Bill,
>
>Thanks for the support. I agree with your addition just wasn't sure what to
>suggest as an alternative to BT that is available today.
>What kind of factory tanned leather are you referring to? Might as well
give
>Matt our best. <G> I remain.....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses
Date: 14 Mar 2000 09:30:04 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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Since I was passing near Eagle Feather Trading Post on my way to visit =
my wife and newborn twin sons, I stopped in to do a little investigating =
fer Chance. Sorry, the lady who runs the place said that this book had =
been out of print (sounds familiar) for about fifteen years and she did =
not know where to get one from. They have a lot of books that start =
"Primitive Indian...." so it must have been one of these that Ole saw. =
It was a hot trail that just went cold.

YMOS

WYnn



------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF8D97.E0CD6B00
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<P>Since I was passing near Eagle Feather Trading Post on my way to =
visit my=20
wife and newborn twin sons, I stopped in to do a little investigating =
fer=20
Chance. Sorry, the lady who runs the place said that this book had been =
out of=20
print (sounds familiar) for about fifteen years and she did not know =
where to=20
get one from. They have a lot of books that start "Primitive Indian...." =
so it=20
must have been one of these that Ole saw. It was a hot trail that just =
went=20
cold.</P>
<P>YMOS</P>
<P>WYnn</P>
<P></P></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF8D97.E0CD6B00--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Hill" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: percussion tubes
Date: 14 Mar 2000 20:43:49 -0800

> THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--MS_Mac_OE_3035911429_32164_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

percussion tubes (I have been told) are now called "nipples"
----------


Excuse me for barging in, but I've been lurking around the list for a while
tryin' to learn something about anything! My name is Steve Lester and I live
in the Nevada desert country. I 'm new to buckskinin' and muzzleloading and
participated in my first shoot this past weekend and truly enjoyed myself
and the good people at Eagle Valley Muzzleloaders.
  While reading Osborne Russells " Journal of A Trapper"  I read about him
having to cut a hunt short because his partner blew out a percussion tube
and they had to return to camp to make a new one. Im curious about how the
tubes were made!


--MS_Mac_OE_3035911429_32164_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: MtMan-List: percussion tubes</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#E6E6E6">
percussion tubes (I have been told) are now called "nipples"<BR>
----------<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2">Excuse me for barging in, but I've been lurking =
around the list for a while tryin' to learn something about anything! My nam=
e is Steve Lester and I live in the Nevada desert country. I 'm new to bucks=
kinin' and muzzleloading and participated in my first shoot this past weeken=
d and truly enjoyed myself and the good people at Eagle Valley Muzzleloaders=
.<BR>
  While reading Osborne Russells " Journal of A Trapper"=
; </FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D"2">I read about him having to cut a hunt short be=
cause his partner blew out a percussion tube and they had to return to camp =
to make a new one. Im curious about how the tubes were made!<BR>
</FONT><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BODY>
</HTML>

--MS_Mac_OE_3035911429_32164_MIME_Part--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Hill" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: percussion tubes
Date: 14 Mar 2000 20:44:59 -0800

> THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--MS_Mac_OE_3035911499_36372_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Forgot one thing
i am also new and have been shooting with a club for about a year or so I am
with the Spring Mountain Free Trappers in and around Las Vegas country
----------


Excuse me for barging in, but I've been lurking around the list for a while
tryin' to learn something about anything! My name is Steve Lester and I live
in the Nevada desert country. I 'm new to buckskinin' and muzzleloading and
participated in my first shoot this past weekend and truly enjoyed myself
and the good people at Eagle Valley Muzzleloaders.
  While reading Osborne Russells " Journal of A Trapper"  I read about him
having to cut a hunt short because his partner blew out a percussion tube
and they had to return to camp to make a new one. Im curious about how the
tubes were made!


--MS_Mac_OE_3035911499_36372_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: MtMan-List: percussion tubes</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#E6E6E6">
Forgot one thing<BR>
i am also new and have been shooting with a club for about a year or so I a=
m with the Spring Mountain Free Trappers in and around Las Vegas country<BR>
----------<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2">Excuse me for barging in, but I've been lurking =
around the list for a while tryin' to learn something about anything! My nam=
e is Steve Lester and I live in the Nevada desert country. I 'm new to bucks=
kinin' and muzzleloading and participated in my first shoot this past weeken=
d and truly enjoyed myself and the good people at Eagle Valley Muzzleloaders=
.<BR>
  While reading Osborne Russells " Journal of A Trapper"=
; </FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D"2">I read about him having to cut a hunt short be=
cause his partner blew out a percussion tube and they had to return to camp =
to make a new one. Im curious about how the tubes were made!<BR>
</FONT><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BODY>
</HTML>

--MS_Mac_OE_3035911499_36372_MIME_Part--


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Hill" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Elk Pants
Date: 14 Mar 2000 20:47:15 -0800

What I want to know is...why would you put pants on an Elk?
----------
>From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: MtMan-List: Elk Pants
>Date: Tue, Mar 14, 2000, 12:35 PM
>

>
>
>Have a pair of Elk Hide Pants/Trouser
>that no longer fit due to weight reduction.
>
>Would like to sell.  E-mail me off list for details
>
>
>@
>
>[e-mail]
>
>--
>A.K.A.  Penny Pincher
>
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: beaver trap prices
Date: 15 Mar 2000 00:45:02 -0600

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In Dean's web site Mountain Man and the Fur Trade you will find the =
following:  http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/artagree.html  =
which shows a price in the mountains of $9.00 each for traps

http://www.pioneerpc.com/wildernessway/Pages/rendez.htm is an article =
from The Wilderness Way magazine which indicates $1.50 each for traps at =
the factory

http://home.flash.net/~tinyt/otmemories2.html  is a web page that says =
traps cost $20 a dozen

YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff

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<HTML><HEAD>
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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>In Dean's web site Mountain Man and the Fur Trade you will find the =

following:  <A=20
href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/artagree.html">http://w=
ww.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/artagree.html</A> =20
which shows a price in the mountains of $9.00 each for traps</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3><A=20
href=3D"http://www.pioneerpc.com/wildernessway/Pages/rendez.htm">http://w=
ww.pioneerpc.com/wildernessway/Pages/rendez.htm</A></FONT><FONT=20
size=3D3> is an article from The Wilderness Way magazine which =
indicates=20
$1.50 each for traps at the factory</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3><A=20
href=3D"http://home.flash.net/~tinyt/otmemories2.html">http://home.flash.=
net/~tinyt/otmemories2.html</A></FONT><FONT=20
size=3D3>  is a web page that says traps cost $20 a =
dozen</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>YMOS</DIV>
<DIV>Lanney Ratcliff</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BF8E17.B2C65E80--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: beaver trap prices
Date: 15 Mar 2000 01:04:19 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Dean's web page is a cinch to find.  The other references were found by =
going to the search engine Google http://www.google.com/  and initiating =
a search for=20
"beaver traps St Louis" and striking the search key.  Dozens of =
references grouped pretty much by subject matter.  This search engine is =
the only one I use anymore and I urge everybody to try it.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Ratcliff=20
  To: History List=20
  Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 12:45 AM
  Subject: MtMan-List: beaver trap prices


  In Dean's web site Mountain Man and the Fur Trade you will find the =
following:  http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/artagree.html  =
which shows a price in the mountains of $9.00 each for traps

  http://www.pioneerpc.com/wildernessway/Pages/rendez.htm is an article =
from The Wilderness Way magazine which indicates $1.50 each for traps at =
the factory

  http://home.flash.net/~tinyt/otmemories2.html  is a web page that says =
traps cost $20 a dozen

  YMOS
  Lanney Ratcliff

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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Dean's web page is a cinch to find.  The other =
references=20
were found by going to the search engine Google <A=20
href=3D"http://www.google.com/">http://www.google.com/</A>  and =
initiating a=20
search for </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>"beaver traps St Louis" and striking the search =
key. =20
Dozens of references grouped pretty much by subject matter.  This =
search=20
engine is the only one I use anymore and I urge everybody to try=20
it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>YMOS</DIV>
<DIV>Lanney Ratcliff</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" title=[e-mail]>Ratcliff</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>History List</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, March 15, 2000 =
12:45=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: beaver =
trap=20
  prices</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>In Dean's web site Mountain Man and the Fur Trade you will find =
the=20
  following:  <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/artagree.html">http://w=
ww.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/artagree.html</A> =20
  which shows a price in the mountains of $9.00 each for traps</DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D3><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.pioneerpc.com/wildernessway/Pages/rendez.htm">http://w=
ww.pioneerpc.com/wildernessway/Pages/rendez.htm</A></FONT><FONT=20
  size=3D3> is an article from The Wilderness Way magazine which =
indicates=20
  $1.50 each for traps at the factory</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D3><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://home.flash.net/~tinyt/otmemories2.html">http://home.flash.=
net/~tinyt/otmemories2.html</A></FONT><FONT=20
  size=3D3>  is a web page that says traps cost $20 a =
dozen</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>YMOS</DIV>
  <DIV>Lanney Ratcliff</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF8E1A.6455C620--


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From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Saddle Soap
Date: 15 Mar 2000 06:17:46 -0000

Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Tenth Edition traces the first
written use of the words 'saddle soap' back to 1889.


>Hey Folks !
 > How far back in history does Saddle Soap go ?
>Pendleton


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From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Advice for a beginner.
Date: 15 Mar 2000 05:48:22 -0700

Thanks Bill,

We do carry quite a bit of leather, I suggest splits for leggins and
full grain for pants. You could go with a commercial tanned braintan
look. It is a cornmeal color and has been sueded on both sides. The
hides smoke up quite well. Cost is more for the comm. braintan. Of
turning grained deer skin inside out can work nice. You can smoke or
dye the leather for a more aged look.
Joe

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From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Elk Pants
Date: 15 Mar 2000 05:53:34 -0700

It is a little known fact that Rocky Mtn Elk do wear pants in the
wintertime to assist them in foraging for food on high wind blown
slopes. During the summer months, a shorter version of knickers are
worn. I've seen it for sure. hard to verify though as during hunting
season, these pants are cached to avoid detection and any assocation
of being human.
Joe

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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses
Date: 15 Mar 2000 07:14:27 -0600


Excuse me for not remembering who, but someone was looking for a book on
Primitive Indian Dresses, I'm not sure if this is it or not:

----
1. Fecteau, Susan/Vickie Zimmer Kuntz Primitive Indian Dresses - Leather
Dress Styles & Decoration Cheyenne 1979 1st Ed 106pp, illus by author, stiff
pict. wraps nice Well illustrated. Book # 07792 US$ 17.50 Click here for
more information or to purchase this book directly from T A Swinford,
Bookseller, AZ, U.S.A.
----
The Seller:
T A Swinford, Bookseller , 7134 Main Street , Scottsdale , AZ , U.S.A. ,
85251
Phone [phone] / Fax [phone] , Email [e-mail]

One heck of a great bibliographical reference can be had by asking to
recieve a catalog from Mr. Swinford, he puts out four a year with at least a
thousand or so titles in each, many many fur trade titles but not limited to
that period. I have been a long time customer and if you ever get to Phoenix
take time to stop in. It's in old town Scottsdale. Rite across the street is
Guidon Books another great used/rare bookstore. In fact they have a website
which I have handy: The Seller: www.guidon.com/mtnmen.html
Check out the fur trade titles, they have many of the standard references
plus some hard to find ones.

northwoods












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From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses
Date: 15 Mar 2000 06:25:37 PST

Wynn,
Thanks a million for trying to find the book.  It seems more elusive than
once thought.  Several sites that were turned up by members of this list
have turned out to be dead ends.  The most recent one mentioned by
Northwoods, lists the book, but when I called about it, the only copy they
had was sold.  I am still attempting to find the book, it is for my wife.
After years of slouching in her authencticity, she was encouraged by people
like Jean Heinbuck, and  Jill, of this list to reach a new level in her
standards.  She hopes to copy a Shoshone dress  and accoutrements, but
sources of good info are scarce.  I had a copy of Millers painting of the
native girl swinging from a branch with nothing on but a skirt, and
reccomended that particular sytle. I was met with some resistance though.
Primitive Indian dresses, is the most reccomended work on this subject, and
if it is half as good as it is made out to be, we should demand a re-print.
Thanks again for everyones help in this matter!!
>


Cliff Tiffie
PO Box 5089
Durant, OK
74702
580-924-4187
---------------------
Aux Aliments de Pays!

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Advice for a beginner.
Date: 15 Mar 2000 07:53:36 -0800

Hey, I need some splits for arrow quivers. I also need some heavier leather,
like latigo. Any prices?
Thanks
Bill
-----Original Message-----


>Thanks Bill,
>
>We do carry quite a bit of leather, I suggest splits for leggins and
>full grain for pants. You could go with a commercial tanned braintan
>look. It is a cornmeal color and has been sueded on both sides. The
>hides smoke up quite well. Cost is more for the comm. braintan. Of
>turning grained deer skin inside out can work nice. You can smoke or
>dye the leather for a more aged look.
>Joe
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Advice for a beginner.
Date: 15 Mar 2000 07:48:28 -0700

Matt,
There is an imitation smoked braintan leather available from Fox Valley
Leather in North Salt Lake City, Utah that look's good enough to fool most
experts, I think you can get it in both elk and buckskin. They also have a
pure white leather that looks a lot like brain taned leather. I use to
purchase a lot of scraps for the Boy Scouts and they would give 15% off for
Scouts on anything they sell.
YMOS
Ole
----------
>From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Advice for a beginner.
>Date: Tue, Mar 14, 2000, 6:10 PM
>

>Bill,
>
>Thanks for the support. I agree with your addition just wasn't sure what to
>suggest as an alternative to BT that is available today.
>What kind of factory tanned leather are you referring to? Might as well give
>Matt our best. <G> I remain.....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Advice for a beginner.
Date: 15 Mar 2000 08:45:53 -0800

But I would abjure you to look closely at what Joe Brandl (his message
posted earlier on this list) has to offer. Joe is extremely knowledgeable
and will not sell anything that is not prime. You tell him what you are
doing and he will match his products to your needs. I have used Fox Valley a
lot in the past - with a variety of results ranging from great to Ugh! If
Joe doesn't have exactly what you want he will tell you and even give you
pointers on where it might be obtained, such as the excellent Spotted Pony
Traders.
Bill C
-----Original Message-----


>Matt,
>There is an imitation smoked braintan leather available from Fox Valley
>Leather in North Salt Lake City, Utah that look's good enough to fool most
>experts, I think you can get it in both elk and buckskin. They also have a
>pure white leather that looks a lot like brain taned leather. I use to
>purchase a lot of scraps for the Boy Scouts and they would give 15% off for
>Scouts on anything they sell.
>YMOS
>Ole
>----------
>>From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
>>To: <[e-mail]>
>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Advice for a beginner.
>>Date: Tue, Mar 14, 2000, 6:10 PM
>>
>
>>Bill,
>>
>>Thanks for the support. I agree with your addition just wasn't sure what
to
>>suggest as an alternative to BT that is available today.
>>What kind of factory tanned leather are you referring to? Might as well
give
>>Matt our best. <G> I remain.....
>>
>>YMOS
>>Capt. Lahti'
>>
>>
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: Ronald Schrotter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Advice to a beginner
Date: 15 Mar 2000 09:00:45 -0800 (PST)

Matt, the best advice I can give you is to be honest.
Don't be afraid to ask questions and don't be afraid
to share YOUR opinions[but not too strongly]  If you
appear to be making an honest effort to fit in you
will in all likelyhood be accepted.  Some of them
people can sniff out a phony like an elk can sniff out
hunters!  Just be yourself and remember you can learn
something from anyone-even another pilgrim.  And
others can learn from you as well.  Book learning is
wonderful, but experience is better.  Good luck, and
welcome to the camp.  Dog, Gabe's Hole Brigade

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: HappyTime.exe and kak.htm virus
Date: 15 Mar 2000 12:15:09 -0500

This is NOT a hoax....

Someone (not from this list) sent me the HappyTime.htm (I think that was it)
and Norton picked it up. Also, my computer was infected with something
called kak.htm virus.  No idea what it is or what it does.  Everyone PLEASE
run your virus scan to make sure that I have not passed something on to
others.

Thanks

Ad Miller



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Search
Date: 15 Mar 2000 14:17:57 EST

Ho the List,

I'm trying track down a fella named "Fiddling Red" that's supposed to be out
here in the NW. No warrants for his arrest or such....<G>....just a friend
lookin to find him. Contact me off line iffin ya know where he is...

Ymos,
Steve

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Advice for a beginner.
Date: 15 Mar 2000 07:49:56 -0500

mat porter--
getting started is tough for a lot of people and most of us go thru a big
learning curve and thought process and pattern change as we progress thru
the learning of buckskinning---dont know where in arkansas you are
located---can point you toward a few people if i knew where you
live---there is a state shoot usually in september in berryville
arkansas---a good one---will have a lot of people there and a good
opertunity to see and look at what people are doing in the way you are
directing yourself---several of the companies have cloth patterns for
shirts and such and remember something that overalls were invented in the
early 1800 by Levi corporation (this gets the purests/triditionalist
going)and are usually acceptable at most shoots except for the pure AMM
doings---a good starter  but not your final end point thats for
sure---contact me offline and we can discuss the way you want to go and
possible methods to follow along with ML contacts in your area------ BTW
My home is in the Eureka Springs area originally--

YMHOSANT

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Advice for a beginner.
Date: 15 Mar 2000 14:03:01 -0500

mat porter--
getting started is tough for a lot of people and most of us go thru a big
learning curve and thought process and pattern change as we progress thru
the learning of buckskinning---dont know where in arkansas you are
located---can point you toward a few people if i knew where you
live---there is a state shoot usually in september in berryville
arkansas---a good one---will have a lot of people there and a good
opertunity to see and look at what people are doing in the way you are
directing yourself---several of the companies have cloth patterns for
shirts and such and remember something that "overalls were invented in
the early 1800 by Levi corporation (this gets the purests/triditionalist
going)and are usually acceptable at most shoots except for the pure AMM
doings---a good starter  but not your final end point thats for
sure---contact me offline and we can discuss the way you want to go and
possible methods to follow along with ML contacts in your area------ BTW
My home is in the Eureka Springs area originally--

and  the info that CPT L gave you about where to start is real good so
the above is just a adder for most imput---remember "trying to have a
proper persona counts a lot" and if you dont think something is correct
dont do it or ask someone who knows---Just dont be a "plactic
Buckskinner" try to do it right and to the best of your abilities---read
and ask and you will learn.

YMHOSANT

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Search
Date: 15 Mar 2000 12:10:13 -0800

Steve,

I think he is in Idaho in the Panhandle but am not sure. Let me know if you
don't get better info and I'll pass this off to the AMM up here. I
remain.....

YMOS
Capt..Lahti'
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 11:17 AM


> Ho the List,
>
> I'm trying track down a fella named "Fiddling Red" that's supposed to be
out
> here in the NW. No warrants for his arrest or such....<G>....just a friend
> lookin to find him. Contact me off line iffin ya know where he is...
>
> Ymos,
> Steve
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Advice for a beginner
Date: 15 Mar 2000 15:22:25 -0600

Which Levi Corporation?

http://www.levistrauss.com/index_about.html

says Levi Strauss of jeans fame was born in 1829.

Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner


 [e-mail]  wrote
> . . . remember something that overalls were invented in the
> early 1800 by Levi corporation (this gets the purests/triditionalist
> going)and are usually acceptable at most shoots except for the pure AMM
> doings---


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses
Date: 15 Mar 2000 16:11:25 -0500

CLIFF---
FOR REFERENCE FOR YOUR WIFES INDIAN DRESS ---go to Mystic Warriers of the
plains by thomas e. mall  ISBN 1-56619-657-4

"the native american"  by turner ISBN 1-878685-42-2

"the plains indian"  ISBN 0-7607-0699-9    chapter IV  page 90 "women and
children in plains society"

fot patterns go to mountain state catalog 1-800-445-1776 page 35 feminine
fur trade fashons---several other good books on the subject in the first
paty of their catalog---also look at dixie gun works catalog but you will
probably get it backordered from them---

these reference show some good pictures and good info on women
dresses---have several more books but to me these are the best I have
right here on hand at the minit---

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses
Date: 15 Mar 2000 14:14:26 PST

Hawk,
Thanks for the additonal sources. Were trying to be careful to avoid some of
the plains styles that are much later than I am interested in. We are
looking for styles that were common among the mountain tribes, Shoshone, Nez
Perce, and the like.  Some of the differences are subtle but serious none
the less.  Also many of the mountain tribes received access to trade goods
at later times than most of the plains indians, and we want to be careful of
placing decoration that was difficult to find or was unattainable.
There are misconceptions about so many articles of womens clothing, most
will tell you that women only wore knee leggings, but have seen some that
show full leggings as being proper.  Hanson showed commercial leather belts
(black) with some tack work, appropriate for the plains, but rawhide
belts(brained once),for some mountain tribes.
Have also found that women did not wear blanket coats, but wrapped
themselves in buffalo or elk robes.  So much for the wifes favorite capote!!
  Shoshone women painted the part in their hair, and circles on their
cheeks.  What is a modern alternative to vermillion????
Too many questions, not enough answers.

Cliff Tiffie
PO Box 5089
Durant, OK
74702
580-924-4187
---------------------
Aux Aliments de Pays!

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Advice for a beginner
Date: 15 Mar 2000 14:28:57 -0800

Bet this makes the purists purr. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Copied from the Levi Strauss web site:

                Levi Strauss
                         Levi Strauss, the inventor of what many consider to
be the
                         quintessential American garment - the blue jean -
was born in
                         Buttenheim, Bavaria on February 26, 1829 to Hirsch
Strauss and his
                         second wife, Rebecca Haas Strauss. Hirsch, a dry
goods peddler,
                         already had four children with his first wife, who
had died a few
                         years earlier: Jacob, Jonas, Louis and Mathilde.
Levi - named "Loeb"
                         at birth - and his older sister Fanny were the last
of the Strauss
                         children; Hirsch succumbed to tuberculosis in 1845.


               Two years after his death Rebecca, Loeb, Fanny and Mathilde
emigrated to
               New York. There, they were met by Jonas and Louis, who had
already
               made the journey and had started a dry goods business. Loeb
began to
               learn the dry goods trade from his brothers. By 1850 he was
known among
               his family and customers as "Levi."

               When news of the California Gold Rush made its way east,
young Levi
               decided to emigrate to San Francisco to make his fortune: not
by panning
               gold, but by selling supplies to the throngs of miners who
arrived daily in the
               big city to outfit themselves before heading off to the gold
fields. In January
               of 1853 he became an American citizen, and in March he
arrived in a
               bustling, noisy San Francisco, establishing a dry goods
business under his
               own name and also serving as the West Coast representative of
the
               family's New York firm. A short time later, his sister Fanny
and her
               husband David Stern also arrived in town to join the
business.

<snip>

In 1872, Levi received a letter from Jacob Davis, a Nevada tailor. Davis
               was one of Levi Strauss' regular customers; he purchased
bolts of cloth
               from the company to use for his own business. In his letter,
he told the
               prosperous merchant about the interesting way he made pants
for his
               customers: he placed metal rivets at the points of strain -
pocket corners,
               and at the base of the button fly. He didn't have the money
to patent his
               process, so he suggested that Levi pay for the paperwork and
that they
               take out the patent together. Levi was enthusiastic about the
idea and the
               patent was granted to both men on May 20, 1873.



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From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Advice for a beginner
Date: 15 Mar 2000 16:14:16 -0700

Levi's were a product of the california gold rush in '49. Not the Mtn Man
period before 1840.
(see? ya got us going!)

Vic

>Which Levi Corporation?
>
>http://www.levistrauss.com/index_about.html
>
>says Levi Strauss of jeans fame was born in 1829.
>
>Glenn Darilek
>Iron Burner
>
>
> [e-mail]  wrote
>> . . . remember something that overalls were invented in the
>> early 1800 by Levi corporation (this gets the purests/triditionalist
>> going)and are usually acceptable at most shoots except for the pure AMM
>> doings---
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin
AMM #1537
Three Rivers Party

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Matthew Porter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Thanks
Date: 15 Mar 2000 17:42:38 -0600

To all,
    Thanks for replying.  Ya'll are a good buch.  I am pround to know ya'll.

YMOS

Matt
  Porter


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Advice for a beginner
Date: 15 Mar 2000 18:56:35 -0500

On Wed, 15 Mar 2000 15:22:25 -0600 "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
writes:
> Which Levi Corporation?
>
> http://www.levistrauss.com/index_about.html
>
> says Levi Strauss of jeans fame was born in 1829.
>
> Glenn Darilek
> Iron Burner

must add and clerify overalls with gallises were being sold before that
time  there is a difference from levies as we know them and overalls of
the time period but they are similar to todays overalls with
gallises---that is if i am not mistaken---had a guy a corperate official
from Levi S in our muzzle loading club in st louis that had done a
research paper on this subject and am working from memory and you know me
and old age.

just recomending a temperary until he does his research and gets the
persona he is looking for together---


    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses
Date: 15 Mar 2000 19:42:55 -0500

On Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:14:26 PST "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
writes:
 What is a modern alternative to vermillion????
> Too many questions, not enough answers.
> Cliff Tiffie
probably the oil base artist paint (from hobby shops) would work---not
the latex stuff---

cliff contact a close friend of mine that lives about 10 miles from
you---
name is steve manhard he lives about 1 mile north of bokocheta has 2 of
the hawken guns that i built for him and his son---son won the North
caralina junior championships with his new gun ---had only fired about 12
rounds thru it befor he went to the matches---got 4 first place and one
second and won the agg---and the levi garret territorial for the
juniors---
    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Advice for a beginner
Date: 15 Mar 2000 20:10:56 -0500

vick and cpt L---(figured i would get you guys going) (GBG)-----and of
course as always YMHS---

not talking about the levies as we know them today---the overalls with
the gallicus was what was the first made by levi's father and they were
made in a brown color of material like canvis similar to the brown ones
that they still make by the levi corperation---You might Contact Jeff
Erlich---(nephue of one of the levi family who works for the company now
---) (was a member of the trappers of starved rock)(in st louis in the
1975 time span---he was the one that produced the documentation that put
the overalls in the 1825 time span-(he had shipping documents and
original orders for them dated in the 1825 time span---the order
described the article of clothing quite well --again I am not talking of
the levies that we see most common today (that you wear a belt with)but
the overalls that levi now produces but in the brown color that they
still make---

Just for your guys info ---it was always funny to me---jeff always wore
the brown overalls with the gallesus and they were peiod correct there is
a couple of miner differences  but that can be done by the individual and
then they are right---will try to contact jeff and see if he still has
all his documentation ---he usto have them framed in his office at
home---and we always laughed about it---(one of his family airlooms)
smitty knows the guy that i am speaking of---he shot a custom swivel
breach flint daley gun.


    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Test Message
Date: 15 Mar 2000 20:30:39 EST

I'm sending messages to list but aren't seeing them received.

This is a test.

Traphand
[e-mail]

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From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver Trap Prices
Date: 15 Mar 2000 22:05:36 -0500 (EST)

Firearms, Traps, & Tools MtMen by Carl Russell (pp. 132-133) has a range
of $1.50 - $4.00 each.
(thanks LR for tip on google engine).

from Michigan


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From: "Hill" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Elk Pants
Date: 15 Mar 2000 19:14:32 -0800

Thanks Joe, what would I do without your wisdom?
I long to study at your feet!
----------
>From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Elk Pants
>Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000, 4:53 AM
>

>It is a little known fact that Rocky Mtn Elk do wear pants in the
>wintertime to assist them in foraging for food on high wind blown
>slopes. During the summer months, a shorter version of knickers are
>worn. I've seen it for sure. hard to verify though as during hunting
>season, these pants are cached to avoid detection and any assocation
>of being human.
>Joe
>
>----------------------
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>

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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses
Date: 15 Mar 2000 21:26:34 -0800

Hey, Cliff, take a trip over to Woolarock - they have some nice stuff there
and it'll take you at least a day to look at all the stuff you will want to
see: like an Indian cap that is dated from 1806 or so that looks just like a
modern ball cap, but with a fully beaded visor - and a couple of Indian
dresses that are knock outs. Then try Tulsa at the Gilchrist. There are
Miller and Catlin paintings there by the wall full. And the Catlins are not
the usual blurry things you see reproduced in books. Down in the basement
there are literally cases of Indian stuff, including Indian dresses and if
you don't find all you want there, ask them to show you some of the stuff
that is not on display.
Bill C
-----Original Message-----


>Hawk,
>Thanks for the additonal sources. Were trying to be careful to avoid some
of
>the plains styles that are much later than I am interested in. We are
>looking for styles that were common among the mountain tribes, Shoshone,
Nez
>Perce, and the like.  Some of the differences are subtle but serious none
>the less.  Also many of the mountain tribes received access to trade goods
>at later times than most of the plains indians, and we want to be careful
of
>placing decoration that was difficult to find or was unattainable.
>There are misconceptions about so many articles of womens clothing, most
>will tell you that women only wore knee leggings, but have seen some that
>show full leggings as being proper.  Hanson showed commercial leather belts
>(black) with some tack work, appropriate for the plains, but rawhide
>belts(brained once),for some mountain tribes.
>Have also found that women did not wear blanket coats, but wrapped
>themselves in buffalo or elk robes.  So much for the wifes favorite
capote!!
>  Shoshone women painted the part in their hair, and circles on their
>cheeks.  What is a modern alternative to vermillion????
>Too many questions, not enough answers.
>
>Cliff Tiffie
>PO Box 5089
>Durant, OK
>74702
>580-924-4187
>---------------------
>Aux Aliments de Pays!
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 16 Mar 2000 04:18:16 EST

Hello in the camp
 I'M Back! What ya got stern in camp? John I sat down to night to read the
archives mind you just to see what had been going since I quit. The time it
took me would have taken all of the time I can set a side for being on this
computer. Ya see this child tries to spend more time makin history then
readin it. Anyway my point is If I started reading the archives at the start
4 years back and at the rate that new is being put out I would never Catch
up. The price of being a slow reader. But Bridger could not read a lick so
I'm in good company. I read Angals Idea about most frequent asked Questions
list. Why not take one step further and make it a real research tool with a
search engine. Now I know nothing about computers. But they can set them up
so you can type in the key words then it bring up all the files that are of
pertness to it. Heres an example of what I mean. Try this site see how it
works. And if you're into native plant uses you will relay like this site.
http://www.umd.umich.edu/cgi-bin/herb
If we could set the Archives like that it would be a lot easier to get
answers without haven to be botherin you guys buy askin the same old
questions, or a life time of diggin to find it in the archives.

Talking about plants the first eatables of spring are out now. Bill Varga,
Jill and I went out today and to dig Indian potatoes and Biscuit Root. Here
in south Idaho we found them at about 4,200 ft. elevation growing along the
benches. It was good to get out, I had cabin fever had me powerful bad.
Worked with that little Spanish Barb mustang stud of Bills I'm brakin for him
what a treat of a horse. If their all like this one, I can see why were so
widely used back then. He's a smart one and willin to please. He's not to big
now but by the time he's done growing he should be just under 15 hands. I'm
tryin to fix him up with my two maris maybe I can breed some brains in to
them. And It's time to get traps in the water before the pelts lose there
prime. What I'm sayin is I'm back but Ain't going to be a spending a hole lot
of time on this here box ain't my still. I want to thank everyone for your
words of support.                       See ya on the trail
                                                        Crazy Cyot

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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 16 Mar 2000 05:54:31 -0600

Good to see you back, Crazy.
Lanney Ratcliff
----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 3:18 AM


> Hello in the camp
>  I'M Back! What ya got stern in camp? John I sat down to night to read =
the=20
> archives mind you just to see what had been going since I quit. The =
time it=20
> took me would have taken all of the time I can set a side for being on =
this=20
> computer. Ya see this child tries to spend more time makin history =
then=20
> readin it. Anyway my point is If I started reading the archives at the =
start=20
> 4 years back and at the rate that new is being put out I would never =
Catch=20
> up. The price of being a slow reader. But Bridger could not read a =
lick so=20
> I'm in good company. I read Angals Idea about most frequent asked =
Questions=20
> list. Why not take one step further and make it a real research tool =
with a=20
> search engine. Now I know nothing about computers. But they can set =
them up=20
> so you can type in the key words then it bring up all the files that =
are of=20
> pertness to it. Heres an example of what I mean. Try this site see how =
it=20
> works. And if you're into native plant uses you will relay like this =
site.
> http://www.umd.umich.edu/cgi-bin/herb
> If we could set the Archives like that it would be a lot easier to get =

> answers without haven to be botherin you guys buy askin the same old=20
> questions, or a life time of diggin to find it in the archives.        =
      =20
>           =20
> Talking about plants the first eatables of spring are out now. Bill =
Varga,=20
> Jill and I went out today and to dig Indian potatoes and Biscuit Root. =
Here=20
> in south Idaho we found them at about 4,200 ft. elevation growing =
along the=20
> benches. It was good to get out, I had cabin fever had me powerful =
bad.=20
> Worked with that little Spanish Barb mustang stud of Bills I'm brakin =
for him=20
> what a treat of a horse. If their all like this one, I can see why =
were so=20
> widely used back then. He's a smart one and willin to please. He's not =
to big=20
> now but by the time he's done growing he should be just under 15 =
hands. I'm=20
> tryin to fix him up with my two maris maybe I can breed some brains in =
to=20
> them. And It's time to get traps in the water before the pelts lose =
there=20
> prime. What I'm sayin is I'm back but Ain't going to be a spending a =
hole lot=20
> of time on this here box ain't my still. I want to thank everyone for =
your=20
> words of support.                       See ya on the trail
>                                                         Crazy Cyot
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "K.C." <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Vermillion
Date: 16 Mar 2000 15:08:52 +0200

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--Boundary_(ID_TSDrJnHggJZGLSvvA0CiXg)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Good day to the list.
Vermillion, I believe, is mercuric sulphide and therefore possibly not =
available to the red Indian tribes at the time of history in which you =
are interested.=20

A possible alternative source of bright, red colouring, which was =
probably readily available, could have been cochineal. Cochineal is made =
from the dried bodies of a scale insect which lives on cacti. Cochineal =
is in use today as a food colouring.

(It is a problem on the prickly pear cactus which is grown commercially, =
here in R.S.A)

Yours truly,

K.C.

--Boundary_(ID_TSDrJnHggJZGLSvvA0CiXg)
Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Good day to the list.</DIV>
<DIV>Vermillion, I believe, is mercuric sulphide and therefore possibly =
not=20
available to the red Indian tribes at the time of history in which you =
are=20
interested. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>A possible alternative source of bright, red colouring, which was =
probably=20
readily available, could have been cochineal. Cochineal is made from the =
dried=20
bodies of a scale insect which lives on cacti. Cochineal is in use today =
as a=20
food colouring.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>(It is a problem on the prickly pear cactus which is grown =
commercially,=20
here in R.S.A)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Yours truly,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>K.C.</DIV></BODY></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_TSDrJnHggJZGLSvvA0CiXg)--

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From: "Susan Gilbert" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses
Date: 16 Mar 2000 07:41:28 -0600 (CST)

Hello the list,

It is possible to get your hands on a copy of this book through inter-library
loan.  Just take this information:

 Fecteau, Susan/Vickie Zimmer Kuntz Primitive Indian Dresses - Leather
Dress Styles & Decoration Cheyenne 1979 1st Ed 106pp, illus by author.

and head to your local library.  The good folks there will look up which library
closest to you has a copy and will get it for you.
I did this morning to see if there were copies out there to borrow.  Conan the
Librarian (my friend John) said there were several dozen scattered all over
the country.  I will have one in my hands late next week.
This is a great way to have access to research material that is out of print or
too expensive to own.

Sue Gilbert
6 Beaver Camp


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From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Vermillion
Date: 16 Mar 2000 05:41:45 PST

KC,
Surely you jest!!  Vermillion was one of the largest trade items of the
rocky mountain fur trade.  Came in small papers or something of the like.




Cliff Tiffie
PO Box 5089
Durant, OK
74702
580-924-4187
---------------------
Aux Aliments de Pays!

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Flag
Date: 16 Mar 2000 07:05:06 -0800

Brothers,
    As others have noted, the flag gets passed from party to party for each
of the
nationals to fly. I do have a copy of the new logo (the pistol and powder
horn) made
into a flag. It is on off white muslin and done in black. If anyone would
like to know
how I made it or would like to borrow (borrow!) let me know.
                                                mike.
[e-mail] wrote:

> I saw the AMM flag at the rendezvous last summer. It was hoisted near the
> trade tent area. So someone must know where it is. The question is, can
> we reproduce it for display at our personal camps.
>
> Todd Glover
> ________________________________________________________________
> YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
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From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Levi's & Overalls
Date: 16 Mar 2000 07:57:51 -0700

So what would his Dad's name have been? Levi was a first name, so we
couldn't very well call his Dads overalls Levi's, could we? (unless Levi
Strauss' father was also named Levi). Where did the father live and
produce? would that product have made it out to the frontier west? how
prevalent was that syle? See what your friend has if possible.

Thanks

Vic

>vick and cpt L---(figured i would get you guys going) (GBG)-----and of
>course as always YMHS---
>
>not talking about the levies as we know them today---the overalls with
>the gallicus was what was the first made by levi's father and they were
>made in a brown color of material like canvis similar to the brown ones
>that they still make by the levi corperation---You might Contact Jeff
>Erlich---(nephue of one of the levi family who works for the company now
>---) (was a member of the trappers of starved rock)(in st louis in the
>1975 time span---he was the one that produced the documentation that put
>the overalls in the 1825 time span-(he had shipping documents and
>original orders for them dated in the 1825 time span---the order
>described the article of clothing quite well --again I am not talking of
>the levies that we see most common today (that you wear a belt with)but
>the overalls that levi now produces but in the brown color that they
>still make---
>
>Just for your guys info ---it was always funny to me---jeff always wore
>the brown overalls with the gallesus and they were peiod correct there is
>a couple of miner differences  but that can be done by the individual and
>then they are right---will try to contact jeff and see if he still has
>all his documentation ---he usto have them framed in his office at
>home---and we always laughed about it---(one of his family airlooms)
>smitty knows the guy that i am speaking of---he shot a custom swivel
>breach flint daley gun.
>
>
>    "HAWK"
>Michael Pierce
>854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
>Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
>e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
>site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
>
>________________________________________________________________
>YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
>Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
>Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
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Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin
AMM #1537
Three Rivers Party

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From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses
Date: 16 Mar 2000 08:03:14 -0700

Cliff,

Just get the book with Karl Bodmers paintings or look a Catlins work.
Early dresses in the Northern Plains were very similiar. Go with the
side seam dress or two piece. Hides for a two piece are the difficult
to find, if she is tall or just a bit on the "big" size. They did
make three piece dresses also, but were not as common. As for
decoration, again look at Bodmer, Catlin and even Miller. You can get
lots of ideas there. It does not take much to sewn these together as
it does to decorate them correctly
Joe

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From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Vermillion
Date: 16 Mar 2000 08:09:19 -0700

Vermillion was very much available to Indians, both american and chinese
Joe

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: DGW Blackpowder Annual-1981: A Revelation
Date: 16 Mar 2000 09:41:27 -0500


Friends,

I happened to be browsing through my old issues of the Dixie Gun Works
Annual looking for an article on rolling paper cartridges for an upcoming
Tex. Revolution event (Goliad/La Bahia Mar. 24-26) when I came across the
article on the American Mountain Men in the 1981 issue.  Something caught
my eye.  There was something peculiar about the color photo at the
beginning of the article.  I have seen this picture many dozens of times
since I bought the issue almost 20 years ago, but it just dawned on me.
Could that be our own Clay Landry (black mustache-standing w/rifle) and
Jeff Hengesbaugh sitting w/black beard) in the photo?  They look sooo
young.  Who are those other two fellows in the shot?  Who are the guys in
the photo on p. 39?  Can someone identify them, left to right?  Who is that
magnificent looking Gray Beard on p. 38?  Thanks in advance.

Adios,
HBC (proudly sporting my four-month old elkskin frock coat these days,
which my wife insists that I keep in the garage because it still carries a
"wonderfully rich" smoke smell [she just don't get it])

**********************************
Henry B. Crawford
Curator of History
Museum of Texas Tech University
Box 43191
Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
[e-mail]
806/742-2442  FAX [phone]
Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
***  Living History . . . Because It's There  ***



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From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Levi's
Date: 16 Mar 2000 08:51:03 -0700

thank you Capt.! purrrrrr

>Bet this makes the purists purr. I remain.....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>Copied from the Levi Strauss web site:
>
>                Levi Strauss
>                         Levi Strauss, the inventor of what many consider to
>be the
>                         quintessential American garment - the blue jean -
>was born in
>                         Buttenheim, Bavaria on February 26, 1829 to Hirsch
>Strauss and his
>                         second wife, Rebecca Haas Strauss. Hirsch, a dry
>goods peddler,
>                         already had four children with his first wife, who
>had died a few
>                         years earlier: Jacob, Jonas, Louis and Mathilde.
>Levi - named "Loeb"
>                         at birth - and his older sister Fanny were the last
>of the Strauss
>                         children; Hirsch succumbed to tuberculosis in 1845.
>
>
>               Two years after his death Rebecca, Loeb, Fanny and Mathilde
>emigrated to
>               New York. There, they were met by Jonas and Louis, who had
>already
>               made the journey and had started a dry goods business. Loeb
>began to
>               learn the dry goods trade from his brothers. By 1850 he was
>known among
>               his family and customers as "Levi."
>
>               When news of the California Gold Rush made its way east,
>young Levi
>               decided to emigrate to San Francisco to make his fortune: not
>by panning
>               gold, but by selling supplies to the throngs of miners who
>arrived daily in the
>               big city to outfit themselves before heading off to the gold
>fields. In January
>               of 1853 he became an American citizen, and in March he
>arrived in a
>               bustling, noisy San Francisco, establishing a dry goods
>business under his
>               own name and also serving as the West Coast representative of
>the
>               family's New York firm. A short time later, his sister Fanny
>and her
>               husband David Stern also arrived in town to join the
>business.
>
><snip>
>
>In 1872, Levi received a letter from Jacob Davis, a Nevada tailor. Davis
>               was one of Levi Strauss' regular customers; he purchased
>bolts of cloth
>               from the company to use for his own business. In his letter,
>he told the
>               prosperous merchant about the interesting way he made pants
>for his
>               customers: he placed metal rivets at the points of strain -
>pocket corners,
>               and at the base of the button fly. He didn't have the money
>to patent his
>               process, so he suggested that Levi pay for the paperwork and
>that they
>               take out the patent together. Levi was enthusiastic about the
>idea and the
>               patent was granted to both men on May 20, 1873.
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin
AMM #1537
Three Rivers Party

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Vermillion
Date: 16 Mar 2000 11:04:18 EST

> Vermillion, I believe, is mercuric sulphide and therefore possibly not
> available to the red Indian tribes at the time of history in which you are
> interested.

You are confusing vermilion with cinnabar.  They are not the same.

Dave Kanger

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From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Levi's
Date: 16 Mar 2000 10:19:02 -0500

>Which Levi Corporation?
>
>http://www.levistrauss.com/index_about.html
>
>says Levi Strauss of jeans fame was born in 1829.
>
>Glenn Darilek
>Iron Burner

Questions about Levi Strauss, the product, or the company can be directed
to my ol' bud Lynn Downey, the Levi Strauss company historian at
415/544-6000.  She's a good egg and knows her stuff.  Tell her hi for me.

HBC


**********************************
Henry B. Crawford
Curator of History
Museum of Texas Tech University
Box 43191
Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
[e-mail]
806/742-2442  FAX [phone]
Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
***  Living History . . . Because It's There  ***



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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 16 Mar 2000 09:39:42 -0800

Crazy,
The "Spanish Barb mustang" you mentioned; is it a BLM wild horse?  I have a
3 year old gelding I doing the same thing with.  Maybe we can trade notes
off line.
John Funk



----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 1:18 AM


> Hello in the camp
>  I'M Back! What ya got stern in camp? John I sat down to night to read the
> archives mind you just to see what had been going since I quit. The time
it
> took me would have taken all of the time I can set a side for being on
this
> computer. Ya see this child tries to spend more time makin history then
> readin it. Anyway my point is If I started reading the archives at the
start
> 4 years back and at the rate that new is being put out I would never Catch
> up. The price of being a slow reader. But Bridger could not read a lick so
> I'm in good company. I read Angals Idea about most frequent asked
Questions
> list. Why not take one step further and make it a real research tool with
a
> search engine. Now I know nothing about computers. But they can set them
up
> so you can type in the key words then it bring up all the files that are
of
> pertness to it. Heres an example of what I mean. Try this site see how it
> works. And if you're into native plant uses you will relay like this site.
> http://www.umd.umich.edu/cgi-bin/herb
> If we could set the Archives like that it would be a lot easier to get
> answers without haven to be botherin you guys buy askin the same old
> questions, or a life time of diggin to find it in the archives.
>
> Talking about plants the first eatables of spring are out now. Bill Varga,
> Jill and I went out today and to dig Indian potatoes and Biscuit Root.
Here
> in south Idaho we found them at about 4,200 ft. elevation growing along
the
> benches. It was good to get out, I had cabin fever had me powerful bad.
> Worked with that little Spanish Barb mustang stud of Bills I'm brakin for
him
> what a treat of a horse. If their all like this one, I can see why were so
> widely used back then. He's a smart one and willin to please. He's not to
big
> now but by the time he's done growing he should be just under 15 hands.
I'm
> tryin to fix him up with my two maris maybe I can breed some brains in to
> them. And It's time to get traps in the water before the pelts lose there
> prime. What I'm sayin is I'm back but Ain't going to be a spending a hole
lot
> of time on this here box ain't my still. I want to thank everyone for your
> words of support.                       See ya on the trail
>                                                         Crazy Cyot
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Wanted Book
Date: 16 Mar 2000 09:46:39 -0800

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While we're talking "wanted books"....I trying to find a copy of:=20

Recreating the Double Barrel Muzzle Loading Shotgun,  by, William R. =
Brockway.

Published by: Geo. Shumway in 1985
ISBN 0-87387-089-1  softbound
ISBN 0-87387-090-5  hardbound

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
John Funk

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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3401" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>While we're talking "wanted books"....I trying to find a copy of: =
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Recreating the Double Barrel Muzzle Loading Shotgun,  by, =
William R.=20
Brockway.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Published by: Geo. Shumway in 1985</DIV>
<DIV>ISBN 0-87387-089-1  softbound</DIV>
<DIV>ISBN 0-87387-090-5  hardbound</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Any help would be greatly appreciated.</DIV>
<DIV>John Funk</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wanted Book
Date: 16 Mar 2000 14:08:50 EST

John....try alibris.com... they may have one. I've got a copy if you only need a page or two copied...
Ymos,
Steve

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses
Date: 16 Mar 2000 14:32:30 EST

Good impute Joe; Its bin long time since I've seen you. The only thing I add
Is when sowing the dress us leather thong not thread. (Per: Jill) I sure do
like them Shoshoni skirts that Miller did a lot of . (topless) he most of
too. Cliff you told me you was a lean toward Shoshoni there ya go and it will
take less buckskin. If I ever get dug out of this mess we're in from this
remodel. I'll send you a paper Jill did on how to put one together. Just give
me a reminder when your ready to start the dress.
                                                             See ya on the
trail
                                                               Crazy Cyot

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wanted Book
Date: 16 Mar 2000 14:35:20 EST

> John....try alibris.com... they may have one

I already tried it, and bibliofind as well.  Neither had it listed.
On the other hand, I bought 7 other neat old books while browsing the
listings.

Dave Kanger

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From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses
Date: 16 Mar 2000 11:52:43 PST

Crazy,
I tried to swing that topless notion by my wife, and was quickly
reprimanded!!  I used the less leather approach, and was accused of being
cheap and too lazy to tan more.  It was a lose lose situation.  I would
still like to have the paper on the "skirt" though.  Interesting note on
using thong rather than thread, my intention was to use linen thread.  I
assumed sinew would be most correct, but did not want to fight it.  Will try
the thong.
Most of the deer in this part of the country produce a 6 or 7 square foot
hide, too small for a two hide dress for my wife.  I will be in the market
for some larger hides(brain tan).  Although she is not X-large, she is tall.

Cliff Tiffie
PO Box 5089
Durant, OK
74702
580-924-4187
---------------------
Aux Aliments de Pays!

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses
Date: 16 Mar 2000 16:55:18 -0500

I would not use thong but would use the sinew for the more correct look.  The
thong was used in short pieces to connect the sides together but not in "running"
stitch as you might use thread.  Too many times I have seen all the fancy "thong"
work which was not used on the dresses or the old shirts.

Linda Holley

[e-mail] wrote:

> Good impute Joe; Its bin long time since I've seen you. The only thing I add
> Is when sowing the dress us leather thong not thread. (Per: Jill) I sure do
> like them Shoshoni skirts that Miller did a lot of . (topless) he most of
> too. Cliff you told me you was a lean toward Shoshoni there ya go and it will
> take less buckskin. If I ever get dug out of this mess we're in from this
> remodel. I'll send you a paper Jill did on how to put one together. Just give
> me a reminder when your ready to start the dress.
>                                                              See ya on the
> trail
>                                                                Crazy Cyot
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wanted Book
Date: 16 Mar 2000 15:36:37 -0800

Steve,
Thank you. I'd like to find the whole book in either soft or hard cover.
I'd kill for a copy, frankly.  I appreciate the offer and I'll try the
source you mentioned.
John Funk

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 11:08 AM


> John....try alibris.com... they may have one. I've got a copy if you only
need a page or two copied...
> Ymos,
> Steve
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wanted Book
Date: 16 Mar 2000 19:15:07 EST

<<<<I'd kill for a copy>>>
Haaaaa.....glad ya don't know where I live John! I'll check another source or two and see what I can find...
Ymos,
Steve

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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wanted Book
Date: 16 Mar 2000 18:57:12 -0600

I just asked a dealer which can usually find any firearms related books that
have been ever printed. Just this spring I got Rifles of Colonial America
1&2, signed by Shumway from him and several other hard to find titles.
About Brockways book he said: "Long out of print. Haven't seen a copy in
years. I have a waiting list for this title. Will be happy to add your name.
Shumway says he will reprint someday, but don't hold your breath."
If I were  you I would go to this site:
http://lamar.colostate.edu/~bott/usedbook.htm
All of the search engines will provide free ongoing searches. Just place
your want in each and cross your fingers. You'll never know what will happen
you could find it tommorrow.

northwoods


-----Original Message-----


While we're talking "wanted books"....I trying to find a copy of:

Recreating the Double Barrel Muzzle Loading Shotgun,  by, William R.
Brockway.

Published by: Geo. Shumway in 1985
ISBN 0-87387-089-1  softbound
ISBN 0-87387-090-5  hardbound

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
John Funk



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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: vermillion/cinnabar
Date: 16 Mar 2000 20:13:32 -0600

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Here is the entry for vermilion found in the Noah Webster Dictionary of =
1828, followed by the entry for cinnabar found in the same dictionary.  =
The two entries seem to say that the two substances were considered to =
be essentially the same.  Hope this helps.
Lanney Ratcliff =20

VERMILION, a.  vermil'yon.  [L. vermiculus, vermes; a name sometimes =
improperly given to the kermes.  See Crimson.]
1.  The cochineal, a small insect found on a particular plant.  =
[Improper or obsolete.]
2.  Red sulphuret of mercury; a bright, beautiful red color of two =
sorts, natural and artificial.  The natural is found in silver mines, in =
the form of a ruddy sand, which is to be prepared by purification or =
washing, and then levigated with water on a stone.  The factitious or =
common vermilion is made of artificial cinnabar, ground with white wine, =
and afterwards with the white of an egg.
3.  Any beautiful red color.  In blushing, the delicate cheek is covered =
with vermilion.

VERMILION, v.t. vermil'yon.  To dye red; to cover with a delicate red


CINNABAR, n.  Red sulphuret of mercury.  Native cinnabar is an ore of =
quicksilver, moderately compact, very heavy, and of an elegant striated =
red color.  It is called native vermilion, and its chief use is in =
painting.  The intensity of its color is reduced by bruising and =
dividing it into small parts.  It is found amorphous, or under some =
imitative form, or crystalized.  Factitious cinnabar is a mixture of =
mercury and sulphur sublimed, and thus reduced into a fine red glebe.

What in the world is a "glebe"??  See below....same dictionary


GLEBE, n.  [L. gleba, a clod or clump of earth.]
1.  Turf; soil; ground.
 Till the glad summons of a genial ray
 Unbinds the glebe---
2.  The land belonging to a parish church or ecclesiastical benefice.
3.  A crystal.
4.  Among miners, a piece of earth in which is contained some mineral =
ore.




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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Here is the entry for vermilion found in the Noah =
Webster=20
Dictionary of 1828, followed by the entry for cinnabar found in the same =

dictionary.  The two entries seem to say that the =
two=20
substances were considered to be essentially the same.  Hope this=20
helps.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Lanney Ratcliff  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>VERMILION, a.  vermil'yon.  [L. =
vermiculus, vermes;=20
a name sometimes improperly given to the kermes.  See =
Crimson.]<BR>1. =20
The cochineal, a small insect found on a particular plant.  =
[Improper or=20
obsolete.]<BR>2.  Red sulphuret of mercury; a bright, beautiful red =
color=20
of two sorts, natural and artificial.  The natural is found in =
silver=20
mines, in the form of a ruddy sand, which is to be prepared by =
purification or=20
washing, and then levigated with water on a stone.  The factitious =
or=20
common vermilion is made of artificial cinnabar, ground with white wine, =
and=20
afterwards with the white of an egg.<BR>3.  Any beautiful red =
color. =20
In blushing, the delicate cheek is covered with vermilion.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>VERMILION, v.t. vermil'yon.  To dye red; to =
cover with a=20
delicate red</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>CINNABAR, n.  Red sulphuret of mercury.  =
Native=20
cinnabar is an ore of quicksilver, moderately compact, very heavy, and =
of an=20
elegant striated red color.  It is called native vermilion, and its =
chief=20
use is in painting.  The intensity of its color is reduced by =
bruising and=20
dividing it into small parts.  It is found amorphous, or under some =

imitative form, or crystalized.  Factitious cinnabar is a mixture =
of=20
mercury and sulphur sublimed, and thus reduced into a fine red=20
glebe.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>What in the world is a "glebe"??  See below....same =
dictionary</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>GLEBE, n.  [L. gleba, a clod or clump of earth.]<BR>1.  =
Turf;=20
soil; ground.<BR> Till the glad summons of a genial =
ray<BR> Unbinds=20
the glebe---<BR>2.  The land belonging to a parish church or =
ecclesiastical=20
benefice.<BR>3.  A crystal.<BR>4.  Among miners, a piece of =
earth in=20
which is contained some mineral ore.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: vermillion/cinnabar
Date: 16 Mar 2000 21:33:02 EST

from The Dictionary of Gems and Gemology, Robert M. Shipley, 6th edition,
copyright 1974 by The Gemological Institute of America.

Cinnabar - A bright red to brownish red and sometimes lead grey, non-gem
mineral which, however, often occurs as red impurities in different quartz
varieties of gemstones or in combination with such varieties.  Also used in
China as coloring pigment for a red lacquer.   The principal ore of Mercury.
Hexagonal crystal system, Hardness is 2-2.5 (mohs scale) and  specific
gravity of  is 8.0-8.2.  Sources widely distributed.

Cinnabar Matrix - A term applicable to various varieties of minerals
containing numerous inclusions of Cinnabar but especially to a Mexican
variety of Jasper.                 Barney Fife

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses
Date: 16 Mar 2000 22:15:29 EST

Bill mentioned Woolarock and Gilchrist, and while you're in that area, for
goodness sakes dont miss the Davis Arms Museum in Claremore, OK.   It'll make
you drool out whats left after the other two. <G>    Barney

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From: "Douglas Hepner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Leather Knee Breeches
Date: 16 Mar 2000 21:23:08 -0600

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Who makes good quality leather knee breeches for "hard to fit" people? =
I'm not "Big and Tall" but "Short and Fat". Any help would be greatly =
appreciated.

YMOS
"Dull Hawk"

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>Who makes good quality =
leather knee=20
breeches for "hard to fit" people? I'm not "Big and Tall" but "Short and =
Fat".=20
Any help would be greatly appreciated.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>YMOS</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>"Dull=20
Hawk"</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Crooked Hand" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: a bit off topic but here it is..
Date: 16 Mar 2000 23:22:50 -0500

Just picked this up thought it needed posted

GUN CONTROL
Orange County Register
Letters to the Editor Section 8/4/99:

It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were
forced to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed, a program
costing the government more than $500 million dollars.

And now the results are in: Australia-wide, homicides are up
3.2 percent; Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent; > >>
Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44
percent). In the state of Victoria, homicides with firearms are up 300
percent.

Figures over the previous 25 years show a steady decrease in
armed robbery with firearms(changed drastically in the past 12 months).
There has been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the elderly.
Australian politicians are on the spot and at a loss to explain how no
improvement in "safety" has been observed after such monumental effort and
expense was successfully expended in "ridding society of guns."

Bet you won't see this data on the evening news or hear your
governor or members of the state Assembly disseminating this information.
It's time to state it plainly: Guns in the hands of honest citizens save
lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws only affect the law-abiding
citizens.

Take note, Americans, before it's too late!

Thanks
Mark Toigo/Crooked Hand/Wethlee-Enke`
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/8699
http://members.xoom.com/crookedhand/gallery.htm



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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leather Knee Breeches
Date: 16 Mar 2000 23:27:08 -0500

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Spotted Pony.... You can find their web page via my page, then click on =
the Florida Frontiersmen logo near the bottom....

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/3216

Ad Miller

  Who makes good quality leather knee breeches for "hard to fit" people? =
I'm not "Big and Tall" but "Short and Fat". Any help would be greatly =
appreciated.

  YMOS
  "Dull Hawk"

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<HTML><HEAD>
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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Spotted Pony.... You can find their web =
page via my=20
page, then click on the Florida Frontiersmen logo near the=20
bottom....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/3216">http://www.geociti=
es.com/Yosemite/Geyser/3216</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ad Miller</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>Who makes good =
quality leather knee=20
  breeches for "hard to fit" people? I'm not "Big and Tall" but "Short =
and Fat".=20
  Any help would be greatly appreciated.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>YMOS</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>"Dull=20
Hawk"</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_003E_01BF8F9F.25D8CB00--


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From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leather Knee Breeches
Date: 16 Mar 2000 21:10:32 -0800


--------------128AD96564E9E81743D57A8E
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

or just go here:  http://members.xoom.com/manyscalps/spotedpony.htm

Frank

Addison Miller wrote:

> Spotted Pony.... You can find their web page via my page, then click
> on the Florida Frontiersmen logo near the
> bottom.... http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/3216 Ad Miller
>
>       Who makes good quality leather knee breeches for "hard to
>      fit" people? I'm not "Big and Tall" but "Short and Fat". Any
>      help would be greatly appreciated. YMOS"Dull Hawk"
>

--------------128AD96564E9E81743D57A8E
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
or just go here:  <A HREF="http://members.xoom.com/manyscalps/spotedpony.htm">http://members.xoom.com/manyscalps/spotedpony.htm</A>
<p>Frank
<p>Addison Miller wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style>
<font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Spotted
Pony.... You can find their web page via my page, then click on the Florida
Frontiersmen logo near the bottom....</font></font> <font face="Arial"><font size=-1><a href="http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/3216">http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/3216</a></font></font> <font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Ad
Miller</font></font>
<blockquote
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <font face="Arial"><font color="#000000"><font size=-1>Who
makes good quality leather knee breeches for "hard to fit" people? I'm
not "Big and Tall" but "Short and Fat". Any help would be greatly appreciated.</font></font></font> <font face="Arial"><font color="#000000"><font size=-1>YMOS</font></font></font><font face="Arial"><font color="#000000"><font size=-1>"Dull
Hawk"</font></font></font></blockquote>
</blockquote>

</body>
</html>

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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wanted Book
Date: 16 Mar 2000 21:27:43 -0800

Done....
I'd be the first in line for a copy if they ever did go back into print.
John Funk

Thanks for the tip(s).


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 4:57 PM


> I just asked a dealer which can usually find any firearms related books
that
> have been ever printed. Just this spring I got Rifles of Colonial America
> 1&2, signed by Shumway from him and several other hard to find titles.
> About Brockways book he said: "Long out of print. Haven't seen a copy in
> years. I have a waiting list for this title. Will be happy to add your
name.
> Shumway says he will reprint someday, but don't hold your breath."
> If I were  you I would go to this site:
> http://lamar.colostate.edu/~bott/usedbook.htm
> All of the search engines will provide free ongoing searches. Just place
> your want in each and cross your fingers. You'll never know what will
happen
> you could find it tommorrow.
>
> northwoods
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John C. Funk, Jr. <[e-mail]>
> To: history line <[e-mail]>
> Date: March 16, 2000 11:49 AM
> Subject: MtMan-List: Wanted Book
>
>
> While we're talking "wanted books"....I trying to find a copy of:
>
> Recreating the Double Barrel Muzzle Loading Shotgun,  by, William R.
> Brockway.
>
> Published by: Geo. Shumway in 1985
> ISBN 0-87387-089-1  softbound
> ISBN 0-87387-090-5  hardbound
>
> Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> John Funk
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses
Date: 17 Mar 2000 00:31:53 EST

Hello in the camp
It seems we have a difference of opinion here. All I can say Linda believe
me; Jill and I have done an a lot of research on Indian women's dress. Jill
much more then I beings how I'm the one who wares the pants around here
(after she tells me witch pare to put on). We have had the opportunity to
handle museum peace. The sinew was used for the declaration and the body was
sewn with a thong. A running stitch down the side and a whip stitched over
the shoulder. The dress is sewn in side out so none of the stitches show on
the out side. They look as Thu they are sewn with sinew but they are not. If
Jill was here she could give you more in foe on it.
Cliff there are ways to make the two hide dress and use three hides. Not all
women back then were as short as Jill. What do you think is under all those
bead across the bust of a lot of those dress? The seem. The two hide is
really the name for the stile of dress not the number of hides it took the
make every one of those dress. People and deer are the same now as back then
they come in different sizes.
                                                  See ya on the trail
                                                  Crazy Cyot

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: vermillion/cinnabar
Date: 17 Mar 2000 00:37:00 EST

> Here is the entry for vermilion found in the Noah Webster Dictionary of
1828,
>  followed by the entry for cinnabar found in the same dictionary.  The two
> entries seem to say that the two substances were considered to be
essentially
> the same.

Lanny,
Did a little more reading and it confirms what you found.  The dictionary
even gives a recipe for making it.  It is mercuric sulfide (HgS).  Says it is
mostly found near the surface of volcanic and hot spring areas.  Deposits in
California,  Nevada, China, Spain and Yugoslavia.

Having said that, I must also say that I grew up in Vermilion County,
Illinois.  There are extensive deep mines there for coal and zinc.  To get to
the coal, one has to go through a heavy layer of red shale.  There are old
mine heaps of it all over the county.  There is evidence that this was ground
and used as a pigment by the Indians in the area,  Kickapoo and Piankashaw
being the most prevalent.  Put two and two together and I assumed it was
vermilion.

The old salt works outside of Danville where Gurdon Hubbard got his trade
goods for the American Fur Co. are located in an area where this shale is a
surface outcropping.  The non-running water located there is even red.

I think shale is essentially petrified clay and there are several nice
deposits of blue clay in the area.  We used to dig it out of the hillside in
the woods where we foraged as kids and make clay pots out of it.  Most of the
rivers and streams in the area have shale bottoms.

Dave Kanger

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: a bit off topic but here it is..
Date: 17 Mar 2000 00:55:05 EST

















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From: Duncan Macready <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: percussion tubes
Date: 17 Mar 2000 18:55:30 +1300

Steve wrote
>percussion tubes (I have been told) are now called "nipples"
In the book Foxfire 5  Hacker Martin charged a customer $3.50 for a new
tube and nipple .Could a tube be a bolster?



YMOS
Cutfinger
Friendships made,Problems shared
Campfires across the wilderness.
Auckland, New Zealand


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses
Date: 17 Mar 2000 01:00:38 -0600

Washtahay-
At 12:31 AM 3/17/00 EST, you wrote:
>The sinew was used for the declaration
    Pardon my ignorance, what is the "declaration"?

>and the body was
>sewn with a thong. A running stitch down the side and a whip stitched over
>the shoulder. The dress is sewn in side out so none of the stitches show on
>the out side. They look as Thu they are sewn with sinew but they are not. If
>Jill was here she could give you more in foe on it.
    Interesting... of all of the 100 or so pre-reservation dresses I've
examined, none have been sewn with thongs using a running stitch.  All were
either sewn with a thread or sinew, or tied.  Where did you see this dress?
 How many specimens like this have you seen?  Tribal affiliation?  Am
wondering if it was a local fad or tribal style.

>Cliff there are ways to make the two hide dress and use three hides. Not all
>women back then were as short as Jill. What do you think is under all those
>bead across the bust of a lot of those dress? The seem. The two hide is
>really the name for the stile of dress not the number of hides it took the
>make every one of those dress. People and deer are the same now as back then
>they come in different sizes.
    Stylistically, there are clear differences between the two.  The two skin
dress is just that, two hides joined, usually with the tail-end at the
neck.  The three skin dress appears to have resulted out of someone sewing
together a skirt and shirt (made rather like a war shirt-a hide folded at
the shoulders and tied on the sides).  The sewing societies of some tribes
have stories about the origin of this.
    I've never seen a two skin dress made by piecing together hides-the style
tended to be prevalent in areas where the hides were large enough to be
used.
    One idea to consider.  At least one company-Moscow Hide and Fur-has deer
and elk rawhide in sizes big enough that when tanned you could easily get a
two skin dress for a fairly tall woman.  Buy the hides, brain tan them, and
make the dress.  Its been a while, but IIRC I used two 12 foot hides to
make a dress for a girlfriend who stood about 6'.
LongWalker c. du B.


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses
Date: 17 Mar 2000 04:10:11 EST

Long waker Gust tryin to see if ya can get my hair up. no go on this one my
friend.
If you made a dress out of two 12 square foot hides for a 6 ft. women it
would not even come to her knees. Three of the dresses are in the Idaho State
University museum one is the olds one collected in the Cody museum. All of
them were sewn with thong but not all had the whip stitch at the shoulder. As
late as 1860 dress were put to gather this way. If you have do so much
research on this my I sagest you take a look at the book of buckskinning 5 at
Cathy Smith article on Fur Trade Indian Dress Just for starters. She Is
another women that has done a great deal of research on the subject. Another
would be that book Cliff was looking for. We are right in the middle of
remolding the house and my library is all packed away or would give you lines
and page numbers. And if I were you I would not be a tellin Jill that her
five brain tan dress that she has spent years researching are all wrong
she'll have your hair and more. Your brakin up the wrong tree here my friend.
 Crazy Cyot

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses
Date: 17 Mar 2000 06:27:22 -0500

When going to any of these museums be care full, most of them are after the fur
trade era and way into the last part of the 19th and early 20th century.  But
they are a wonder to look at.

Linda

[e-mail] wrote:

> Bill mentioned Woolarock and Gilchrist, and while you're in that area, for
> goodness sakes dont miss the Davis Arms Museum in Claremore, OK.   It'll make
> you drool out whats left after the other two. <G>    Barney
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses
Date: 17 Mar 2000 06:33:18 -0500

Having restored and conserved several dress for a few museums and private
collections, "we" may  have a problem.  The dresses I worked on did not show the
use of "thong" in piecing them together.  The use of heavy sinew was of great
use.  One I restored was a 3 piece and the only thongs were short strips at the
side. Hard to describe on the net how it was placed.

Linda

[e-mail] wrote:

> Hello in the camp
> It seems we have a difference of opinion here. All I can say Linda believe
> me; Jill and I have done an a lot of research on Indian women's dress. Jill
> much more then I beings how I'm the one who wares the pants around here
> (after she tells me witch pare to put on). We have had the opportunity to
> handle museum peace. The sinew was used for the declaration and the body was
> sewn with a thong. A running stitch down the side and a whip stitched over
> the shoulder. The dress is sewn in side out so none of the stitches show on
> the out side. They look as Thu they are sewn with sinew but they are not. If
> Jill was here she could give you more in foe on it.
> Cliff there are ways to make the two hide dress and use three hides. Not all
> women back then were as short as Jill. What do you think is under all those
> bead across the bust of a lot of those dress? The seem. The two hide is
> really the name for the stile of dress not the number of hides it took the
> make every one of those dress. People and deer are the same now as back then
> they come in different sizes.
>                                                   See ya on the trail
>                                                   Crazy Cyot
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html



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From: "Dennis Earp" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wanted Book
Date: 17 Mar 2000 08:25:01 -0500

Northwoods,

Keep me in mind also if you ever run into either of these books.  I've
been looking for both for over three years now and have found several
other out-of-print, hard to find books, but these two seem very hard to
locate.  I've also talked to Shumway a few times and he always seems
to have good intentions, but never gets anything reprinted.

Dennis Earp



>Just this spring I got Rifles of Colonial America
>1&2, signed by Shumway from him and several other hard to find titles.



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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: New Web Page
Date: 17 Mar 2000 08:49:26 -0500

Hello and pardon the intrusion...Due to repeated request and threats I am
now doing folding knives for your pocket or pouch.
They may be  seen at the direct link below or you can get there from my main
site...

http://www.bright.net/~deforge1/Folders.html

Thanks
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"





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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses
Date: 17 Mar 2000 07:25:42 -0800

Well, that's sometimes true. But at Woolarock each item is dated - even the
Miller paintings. At the Gilcrease, you can find both - dated and undated.
And both places have plenty that fit the fur trade. At Cody, since the guy
that wrecked the Cow Boy Museum in OKC has taken over, who knows what that
will turn into. Last time I was there it was beginning to resemble a show of
modern art done by his  favored Indian cronies. Just like he did at OKC.
-----Original Message-----


>When going to any of these museums be care full, most of them are after the
fur
>trade era and way into the last part of the 19th and early 20th century.
But
>they are a wonder to look at.
>
>Linda
>
>[e-mail] wrote:
>
>> Bill mentioned Woolarock and Gilchrist, and while you're in that area,
for
>> goodness sakes dont miss the Davis Arms Museum in Claremore, OK.   It'll
make
>> you drool out whats left after the other two. <G>    Barney
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "John McKee" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leather Knee Breeches
Date: 17 Mar 2000 08:21:24 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BF8FE9.C8D7C8C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

That's what I do for a living. Contact me off list. JMc
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Douglas Hepner=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 9:23 PM
  Subject: MtMan-List: Leather Knee Breeches


  Who makes good quality leather knee breeches for "hard to fit" people? =
I'm not "Big and Tall" but "Short and Fat". Any help would be greatly =
appreciated.

  YMOS
  "Dull Hawk"

------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BF8FE9.C8D7C8C0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D2>That's what I do for a =
living.=20
Contact me off list. JMc</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>Douglas Hepner</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 16, 2000 =
9:23=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Leather =
Knee=20
  Breeches</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>Who makes good =
quality leather knee=20
  breeches for "hard to fit" people? I'm not "Big and Tall" but "Short =
and Fat".=20
  Any help would be greatly appreciated.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>YMOS</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>"Dull=20
Hawk"</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BF8FE9.C8D7C8C0--


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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses
Date: 17 Mar 2000 07:28:55 -0800

This is where things sometimes go awry. We each speak from our own
experiences, knowing what we know because of what we've seen. That often
precludes accepting what someone else has seen and knows, which can be very
different. I have see dresses done both ways. Held them in my hands (a press
pass can work wonders with curators) Assessed them with my own eyes - then
decided I didn't want to wear one.
-----Original Message-----


>Having restored and conserved several dress for a few museums and private
>collections, "we" may  have a problem.  The dresses I worked on did not
show the
>use of "thong" in piecing them together.  The use of heavy sinew was of
great
>use.  One I restored was a 3 piece and the only thongs were short strips at
the
>side. Hard to describe on the net how it was placed.
>
>Linda
>
>[e-mail] wrote:
>
>> Hello in the camp
>> It seems we have a difference of opinion here. All I can say Linda
believe
>> me; Jill and I have done an a lot of research on Indian women's dress.
Jill
>> much more then I beings how I'm the one who wares the pants around here
>> (after she tells me witch pare to put on). We have had the opportunity to
>> handle museum peace. The sinew was used for the declaration and the body
was
>> sewn with a thong. A running stitch down the side and a whip stitched
over
>> the shoulder. The dress is sewn in side out so none of the stitches show
on
>> the out side. They look as Thu they are sewn with sinew but they are not.
If
>> Jill was here she could give you more in foe on it.
>> Cliff there are ways to make the two hide dress and use three hides. Not
all
>> women back then were as short as Jill. What do you think is under all
those
>> bead across the bust of a lot of those dress? The seem. The two hide is
>> really the name for the stile of dress not the number of hides it took
the
>> make every one of those dress. People and deer are the same now as back
then
>> they come in different sizes.
>>                                                   See ya on the trail
>>                                                   Crazy Cyot
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: museums
Date: 17 Mar 2000 08:17:39 -0600

    I would like to second what Barney said about the Davis gun museum in
Claremore, Oklahoma.
    It is certainly one of the finest gun museums anywhere. Not only is the
collection large and varied, I like it because of the way the guns are
displayed. All are displayed chronologically, very early to modern. You can
find a couple cases with examples of the period you are interested in.
    And every gun is shown with information about firing mechanism [which
answers a lot of questions about "did they have a such&such style lock back
then?", to bore and twist and sights.
    You can do more research in an afternoon there than years elsewhere.
And the library has, reputedly, the largest collection of firearms related
reference books, old and new, anywhere.
    And the curator, if he is still there, it has been many years since I
met him, is one of the nicest, most accommodating and knowledgeable people
you might ever have the opportunity of meeting. His name is Good or Goode,
if I reccolect rightly.
Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses
Date: 17 Mar 2000 08:58:57 -0600

Washtahay-
At 04:10 AM 3/17/00 EST, you wrote:
>Long waker Gust tryin to see if ya can get my hair up. no go on this one my
>friend.
    Last time I checked, I seemed to have no problem using words to piss
someone off-I'm sure had that been my goal I would have managed to do so!
I was pointing out that I am unfamiliar with any dresses sewn with a
leather thong, trying to figure out where you had run across such items,
stating a difference of opinion regarding evolution of style, and providing
the basis for my opinions.  I was also trying to provide an option to
someone trying to locate hides of a size to make a dress.

>If you made a dress out of two 12 square foot hides for a 6 ft. women it
>would not even come to her knees.
    Strangely enough, it was more than long enough...  Shoulder to knee on
this woman was 4'4", her measurements were around 36-24-37; two twelve foot
hides were more than adequate.  (I keep notes of measurements of hides used
and measurements of the person the dress is for directly in my copy of
Fecteau's book, it makes it handy when planning a new dress for someone.)

>Three of the dresses are in the Idaho State
>University museum one is the olds one collected in the Cody museum. All of
>them were sewn with thong but not all had the whip stitch at the shoulder.
As
>late as 1860 dress were put to gather this way.
    As I said, I have never seen a pre-reservation dress sewn with a thong.
The only pre-res dress I have on hand right now is a side-seam, the seam is
sewn with rather fine sinew from armhole to the bottom, and across the
shoulder.  Probably not a good example.

>If you have do so much
>research on this my I sagest you take a look at the book of buckskinning 5
at
>Cathy Smith article on Fur Trade Indian Dress Just for starters. She Is
>another women that has done a great deal of research on the subject. Another
>would be that book Cliff was looking for.
    Don't have Book of Buckskinning V (loaned it to some "good hearted soul"
and haven't seen it since), but I recall no mention of sewing with leather
thongs.
    Per Fecteau's "Primitive Indian Dresses" p. 24:
    "Indian garments were laced with leather thongs or sewed with sinew or
plant fibers.  Early forms of joining garments together can be found by
looking at old leggins and men's shirts.  Women's dresses were also made
this way.  Leather strings were passed through holes in dress edges and
tied together at the seams.
    "As sewing needles were not yet in existence, awls were used to puncture
holes in leather so that fine points of sinew thread or vegetable fibers
such as nettles, yuccas, or milkweed could be passed through and pulled
tight.  Awls were made of bone, horn, or thorns as from the Buffalo Berry
bush.  Later, steel or nail awls were acquired from trades with the white man.
    "Animal tendons from along leg bones and back bones under the shoulder
blade were the main material used to sew garments together.  While still
moist, tendons were cleaned of natural glues by scraping with a flint stone
or sharp bone.  It was rubbed between the hands to separate the fibers.
These fibers were then rubbed against the thigh which twisted them into
threads.  Whole pieces of sinew could be left to dry and then hammered and
softened until the fibers could be pulled apart.  For dresses, the running
stitch and whip stitch were most used in sewing."
    In other words, the only use of leather thongs mentioned was the two hole
tie, as used on leggings, war shirts, etc.

> And if I were you I would not be a tellin Jill that her
>five brain tan dress that she has spent years researching are all wrong
>she'll have your hair and more.
    Am not saying its "all wrong".  I said I was unaware of any precedent in
the pre-res days, and remain so.
    The closest I can come to a pieced together dress, and use of a running
stitch done with a leather thong, is a dress in the collection of the
American Museum of Natural History (I think its shown in one of Hanson's
Sketchbooks).  The dress has a yoke that is laced on, using a running
stitch of thong-but the side seams are sewn-with sinew,IIRC-and the main
hides were large enough to have made the dress without the yoke.
LongWalker c. du B.



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From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses
Date: 17 Mar 2000 08:48:31 -0700

Actually on many two piece dresses, sinew was used at the shoulder
seam and leather thong at the overlap at the top. Of course there are
exceptions. Brain tan strips of leather are quite strong and even
more when twisted.
Joe

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From:    "John Hunt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: knee pants and other clothing
Date: 17 Mar 2000 10:52:15 -0500


Doug Hepner

I too am built like a sports car, low and wide. Try stitchers cabin here in
ohio. They are reasonable priced and quality made.  [e-mail]
Will custom make to your size.


John (BIG JOHN) Hunt
Longhunter
Mountainman
southwest  Ohio


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From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses
Date: 17 Mar 2000 08:20:38 PST

Thanks to all that have contributed information to the Primitive Indian
Dresses thread, I will compile all the information presented and use what I
can.


Cliff Tiffie
PO Box 5089
Durant, OK
74702
580-924-4187
---------------------
Aux Aliments de Pays!

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From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan.
Date: 17 Mar 2000 08:25:58 PST

I am interested in the idea of purchasing rawhide that is large enough to be
of use in making a dress, and brain tanning it.  Has anyone bought hides
like those described, and what is the process for tanning those hides.  Are
they ready to brain, or do they require some more work???
C
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From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan.
Date: 17 Mar 2000 10:50:41 -0700

I've never tried this, but I would be reasonably sure you still would have
to scrape off the epidermis and maybe even re-flesh. I've also not heard of
deer or elk rawhide being sold commercially and also have never talked to
anyone who has braintanned a beef. Sounds like slightly less work since you
don't have to dehair, but alot more expensive since you usually can get
green hides either cheap or free from butchers and those that process wild
game usually would love to have someone help them skin. besides, if you
skin it you have control over the quality. scores and cuts can be
eliminated.

Vic

.>I am interested in the idea of purchasing rawhide that is large enough to be
>of use in making a dress, and brain tanning it.  Has anyone bought hides
>like those described, and what is the process for tanning those hides.  Are
>they ready to brain, or do they require some more work???
>C
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
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Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin
AMM #1537
Three Rivers Party

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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan.
Date: 17 Mar 2000 12:10:00 -0800

Commercial in general will not work for subsequent brain tanning. When it is
processed into rawhide they use chemicals that remain in it and will thwart
your efforts of braining.
-----Original Message-----


>I've never tried this, but I would be reasonably sure you still would have
>to scrape off the epidermis and maybe even re-flesh. I've also not heard of
>deer or elk rawhide being sold commercially and also have never talked to
>anyone who has braintanned a beef. Sounds like slightly less work since you
>don't have to dehair, but alot more expensive since you usually can get
>green hides either cheap or free from butchers and those that process wild
>game usually would love to have someone help them skin. besides, if you
>skin it you have control over the quality. scores and cuts can be
>eliminated.
>
>Vic
>
>.>I am interested in the idea of purchasing rawhide that is large enough to
be
>>of use in making a dress, and brain tanning it.  Has anyone bought hides
>>like those described, and what is the process for tanning those hides.
Are
>>they ready to brain, or do they require some more work???
>>C
>>______________________________________________________
>>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>>
>>
>>----------------------
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>
>Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin
>AMM #1537
>Three Rivers Party
>
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan.
Date: 17 Mar 2000 14:16:34 EST

Take a look at this site
http://www.braintan.com/toc.html

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan.
Date: 17 Mar 2000 12:39:47 -0700

Chance,

I have done this a couple of times. I soaked them in water until thoroughly
saturated. Strung them up on my frame and scraped as for any hide. They were
pretty clean, but I wanted to make sure all grain &c was removed. I then
brained and softened as usual. Worked out great.

A LOT less work than scraping all the hair off.

I like to tan hides I have harvested, but this is a good, quick alternative.

Hope this helps.

Lou
Colorado Territory

> ----Original Message-----
> From:    Chance Tiffie [SMTP:[e-mail]]
> Sent:    Friday, March 17, 2000 9:26 AM
> To:    [e-mail]
> Subject:    MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan.
>
> I am interested in the idea of purchasing rawhide that is large enough to
> be
> of use in making a dress, and brain tanning it.  Has anyone bought hides
> like those described, and what is the process for tanning those hides.
> Are
> they ready to brain, or do they require some more work???
> C
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
> ----------------------
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan.
Date: 17 Mar 2000 12:59:35 -0700



Chance,

You can do as Louis says for deer or elk, but you cannot and will not be
successful with beef.  So get deer or elk and have fun.

Rick



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From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan.
Date: 17 Mar 2000 12:17:40 PST


I had no intentions of trying this on a beef hide, only the deer or elk as
mentioned.  Seems it would be the only way I can get large enough hides for
the task at hand.  Thanks for the advice.
Cliff

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: What did the mountaineer greet his buckskin buddy with, this
Date: 17 Mar 2000 15:33:23 EST


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan.
Date: 17 Mar 2000 16:49:51 -0500

Buy the brain tanned hides.....you will be happier and better off...do not get
cow rawhide if you do decide to do your own.

Linda Holley

Chance Tiffie wrote:

> I am interested in the idea of purchasing rawhide that is large enough to be
> of use in making a dress, and brain tanning it.  Has anyone bought hides
> like those described, and what is the process for tanning those hides.  Are
> they ready to brain, or do they require some more work???
> C
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses
Date: 17 Mar 2000 21:28:42 -0500


    The problem is one of perception and blindness.  Do we know what each other
is talking about when we describe or use the words "lacing"?  To me is means
large quarter inch thongs making big holes and it does show.  Doing some more
research and digging out the hundreds of pictures and and many articles/books on
the the subject or part, here is what I came up with.
   There is a great difference in regional materials for dresses when it comes to
putting the dress or even shirts together.  When you look at the "the Cheyennes"
by Grinnel you have the "dresses being SEWN together by leather strings that pass
through holes in the edges of the front and back pieces of the dress.  1850
to1860.  In modern times all clothing is neatly sewn at the seams with sinew
thread".  The key here is the use of the term STRING.  When I think of string I
think or see very small diameter material and not heavy lace for sewing.
    According to Mary Jane Schnieder and her article on "A Plateau Dress"
"The Yakima dress is also made from two skins with the neck edges folded down.
All the seams on the Missouri Historical Society dress are sewn with leather
strips instead of sinew".  Strips is the word here that makes me think of small
size.  Having seen this dress they are very small THIN strips that can easily be
pushed or put threw a bone size awl hole.
Also remember that many of these early dresses were made from Mountain sheep skin
and do not necessarily have the thickness of an elk or big deer.
         In Kathy Smiths' article in Buckskinner 5, she does say "The 3 hide
dress was formed from three large hides."  She does not really state how the two
hides that form the front and back are sewn together.  But she does say that
smaller attachments are "often sewn almost invisibly with sinew, while the yoke
was attached to the body with fine buckskin lacing using a visible running
stitch."  This is the only real lacing besides the yoke of a two piece dress that
is very visible. I have seen this dress and talked to Kathy and it is a very fine
stitching using very thin buckskin and give the illusion of thread.  This goes
along with what I have seen in many museums that have Sioux and Southern Plains
material.  The sewing is so fine you have trouble telling it from thread if a
good leather is used.  Good brain tan can be cut in such a way that it makes a
strong thread or string. I have used this method but do not call it lacing.
     Alfred L. Kroeber, in his book, The Arapaho, describes dress and other
articles put together with sinew and awls.
     Nez Perce Dress: A Study In Culture Change by Stephen Shawley is one of the
best sources for Plateau culture material.  "Dresses as well as shirts were
formed from well made skins which were not smoked. The hind regions of the hides
were placed together with the hair side always facing inward.  the top part to
the hindquarter were removed only for the man's shirt. .......The shoulder seam
for the woman's dress was sewn next to the edged with the seam allowances usually
turned inward.  The legs of the hides formed partially open sleeves.  The neck
opening were closed somewhat with the addition of four hide thongs secured to the
edge near where the base of the neck fit the opening.........The side seams for
both the woman's dress and man's shirt were sewn using leather thongs and the
running stitch from near the hem to just below the under arm.  A bone needle may
be used in this instance, although the awl was also well suited.  Both sides were
simultaneously punched for lacing.  The seam allowances were fringed.  The sleeve
region, being as long as the animal hide was wide, was left open and fringed on
the edges".  Again how thick a "lace" are we talking or is it "lace" we are
talking about or very fine leather that resembles string or a heavy thread that
can be easily sewn threw leather and not be seen?

    And you guys thought you could argue the finer points of tinning copper pots,
what gun caliber and patching material to use, and where is the best place to get
a cold beer.

Linda Holley



















































































































































































































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From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: test of new signature
Date: 17 Mar 2000 21:50:17 -0500 (EST)

ertqrggkpktkrt

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Michigan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan.
Date: 17 Mar 2000 22:00:16 -0600

Washtahay-
At 08:25 AM 3/17/00 PST, you wrote:
>I am interested in the idea of purchasing rawhide that is large enough to be
>of use in making a dress, and brain tanning it.  Has anyone bought hides
>like those described, and what is the process for tanning those hides.  Are
>they ready to brain, or do they require some more work???
    I've walked several students through this, its really not that much
different than tanning a fresh hide-but the only advantage I can see that
it offers is that it lets folks who can't hunt the hides they need stretch
their dollars.
    What I have the kids do is take the dry rawhide and scuff both sides with
a piece of 150 grit sandpaper until it has an evenly  "sueded" surface.
Put about 4 gallons of water in a plastic bucket, add two ounces of
muriatic acid, and soak the hide in it for about 48 hours.  Rinse the hide
in running water for an hour or so.
    From there, braintan per your favorite procedure.  I've even gone so far
as to braintan rawhide taken from dog chew toys.  It usually makes pretty
fair moc soles.
    As always, your mileage may vary.
LongWalker c. du B.


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From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Date: 17 Mar 2000 23:08:46 -0800 (PST)

Hello Crazy,

Glad to see you're back.  Can't think of anyone that I enjoyed sharing camp
with as you last year at the National.  Just wish I could make it this year
but already know I can't.

That Spanish Barb mustang stud sounds interesting.  Maybe when he gets older
do you think that Bill might be interested in breeding him with my 5 year
old Kiger mustang mare?  She is really a good one.  Problem would be to get
them together with me being here in California, but bet they would have a
really nice foal.

Talk to you soon.

Best Regards,

Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488




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From: "Matt  P" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 18 Mar 2000 07:02:32 -0600

Ho the List!
I've been lurking for awhile, with nothing to contribute, but I've been
wondering about something.  Did the frontiersmen and mountain men  have any
dogs with them?I know from my own experience that I can get a little crazy
without other people to talk with, but if I have my dog with me, I could go
for days without other people.  I wonder if the frontiersmen had any similar
experiences.
Matt in Texas
<[e-mail]>
                Moonwolf's Den
http://pages.ivillage.com/misc/txmoonwolf/


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wanted Book
Date: 16 Mar 2000 13:40:59 -0500

john funck do you have the right author for that book---there is one
written by shumway and what is the ISBN # for the book you are looking
for---brockway made a lot of target rifles and also there are 6 known
target pistols made by the same guy---They are a bit advanced for their
time---false muzzel and mule ear ignition---with clicker rear sight
---some of them are even bedded in pitch pine (the barrels)  real
interesting pieces the brockway guns---couple on display at smithsonian
many are of the underhammer design---most of brockway guns were smaller
caliber and shot slugs ---gain twist and all that nonsense---

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wanted Book
Date: 18 Mar 2000 06:27:37 -0800

HAWK.........
Yes. The book I'm looking for is as described.  I copied all the information
from a friends copy.  Made him promise he'd leave it to me in his will.  He
didn't see the humor in my asking when he thought he'd be 'checking out'.
John "Funk" (drop the 'c' please) ;-)
Thanks for your inquiry.

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 10:40 AM


> john funck do you have the right author for that book---there is one
> written by shumway and what is the ISBN # for the book you are looking
> for---brockway made a lot of target rifles and also there are 6 known
> target pistols made by the same guy---They are a bit advanced for their
> time---false muzzel and mule ear ignition---with clicker rear sight
> ---some of them are even bedded in pitch pine (the barrels)  real
> interesting pieces the brockway guns---couple on display at smithsonian
> many are of the underhammer design---most of brockway guns were smaller
> caliber and shot slugs ---gain twist and all that nonsense---
>
>     "HAWK"
> Michael Pierce
> 854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
> Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
> e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
> site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
> Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
> Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
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From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan.
Date: 18 Mar 2000 13:28:07 -0700

I have deer, elk cow and buffalo rawide, also green salted deer, elk,
and buffalo hides. Both will work for brain tanning

Joe

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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan.
Date: 18 Mar 2000 13:05:38 -0800

Joe,
I thought "salted" hides would not work for braining??  Am I wrong?
John Funk


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2000 12:28 PM


> I have deer, elk cow and buffalo rawide, also green salted deer, elk,
> and buffalo hides. Both will work for brain tanning
>
> Joe
>
> ----------------------
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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan.
Date: 18 Mar 2000 13:58:20 -0800




> Joe,
> I thought "salted" hides would not work for braining??  Am I wrong?
> John Funk

John,

Joe will probably back this up but one of my favorite "Brain Tanners" Mike
"Dirty Shirt" Rider, has said that salted hides are actually easier to work
with and in some strange way especially so if they have been salted for some
time. I recall him saying they were easier to dehair and grain. Hope that
helps. I remain........

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan.
Date: 18 Mar 2000 15:58:32 -0800

"Capt." &  Joe.........
If such be the case I stand forever informed and corrected.  I could have
sworn that during the course of some "brain tanning" discussion someone said
exactly the opposite.  I know "Shirt" well and would agree, he does the best
braining that I've come across.  I sure miss his ugly puss.
Thanks for the input.
John Funk

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2000 1:58 PM


>
>
>
> > Joe,
> > I thought "salted" hides would not work for braining??  Am I wrong?
> > John Funk
>
> John,
>
> Joe will probably back this up but one of my favorite "Brain Tanners" Mike
> "Dirty Shirt" Rider, has said that salted hides are actually easier to
work
> with and in some strange way especially so if they have been salted for
some
> time. I recall him saying they were easier to dehair and grain. Hope that
> helps. I remain........
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:16:29 -0600
Date: 18 Mar 2000 19:12:11 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Ho the list,
Today on a construction site I found a number of small (2"-5" diameter)  =
flat (1"-1 1/2" thick) stones, reddish brown in color...more red than =
brown that are lightweight for their size.  I haven't had the =
opportunity to determine the specific gravity, but I will next week.  =
These stones were found as nodules in layers of gray and tan shaley clay =
or in soft weathered limestone and are quite soft...they can be scraped =
with a fingernail.  When washed they erode slightly with a slightly =
"slimey" feel...like wet silty clay.  They can be carved easily with a =
pocket knife.   The cuttings stain the hands a ruddy color.  The stone =
looks like a pipestone (catlinite?) pipe I once had, but I have been led =
to believe that pipestone is found almost entirely in the Great Lakes =
region.  I'm stumped.
Anybody have an opinion?
Lanney Ratcliff

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Ho the list,</DIV>
<DIV>Today on a construction site I found a number of small (2"-5"=20
diameter)  flat (1"-1 1/2" thick) stones, reddish brown in =
color...more red=20
than brown that are lightweight for their size.  I haven't had the=20
opportunity to determine the specific gravity, but I will next =
week.  These=20
stones were found as nodules in layers of gray and tan shaley clay or in =
soft=20
weathered limestone and are quite soft...they can be scraped with a =

fingernail.  When washed they erode slightly with a slightly =
"slimey"=20
feel...like wet silty clay.  They can be carved easily with a =
pocket=20
knife.   The cuttings stain the hands a ruddy color.  The =
stone=20
looks like a pipestone (catlinite?) pipe I once had, but I have been led =
to=20
believe that pipestone is found almost entirely in the Great Lakes =
region. =20
I'm stumped.</DIV>
<DIV>Anybody have an opinion?</DIV>
<DIV>Lanney Ratcliff</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan.
Date: 18 Mar 2000 18:39:37 -0800


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2000 3:58 PM


> "Capt." &  Joe.........
> If such be the case I stand forever informed and corrected.  I could have
> sworn that during the course of some "brain tanning" discussion someone
said
> exactly the opposite.  I know "Shirt" well and would agree, he does the
best
> braining that I've come across.  I sure miss his ugly puss.
> Thanks for the input.

John

After that I sure hope I quoted him correctly. <G> I'd swear I heard him
make that comment to someone who had some hides but wasn't sure they would
be any good cause they had been salted. I remain.

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Ratcliff's Found Minerals
Date: 18 Mar 2000 21:41:45 EST

Lanney, From the limited description you provided, Barite, Bauxite, Calcite,
Cinnabar, Gypsum, Realgar and a few others are all possibilities.  Any
additional info such as Specific Gravity, Hardness, Streak Color, Refraction,
Cleavage and Odor (when heated) will help to differentiate between the
minerals.  I have many gemological / mineralogical ref's to use, and in
looking at them it would seem that Streak Color in these softer materials is
an important item.  Let me know and I'll see what I can dig up.   Barney Fife

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From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Salting Hides.
Date: 18 Mar 2000 18:46:49 PST


At Braintan.com they describe proper methods for storing or preserving hides
for future use, and salting is one of the methods described.  Must be OK.
Cliff
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:16:29 -0600
Date: 18 Mar 2000 22:10:15 -0500

LANNEY WROTE:
Anybody have an opinion?

>>Yep... Get a real job..<G>
Love
D

(and it does sound like the catlinite I have here)


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Ratcliffs Found Minerals
Date: 18 Mar 2000 22:18:01 EST

oh, and i forgot the most obvious <GGG>  CATLINITE
Catlinite is chemically a clay (silicate of alumina) colored brick red with
peroxide of iron. In a museum article it was said that Indians preferred this
more pure clay over other red stone found else where

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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ratcliff's Found Minerals
Date: 18 Mar 2000 21:25:24 -0600

There are some dark brown to black fine streaks.
L
----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2000 8:41 PM


> Lanney, From the limited description you provided, Barite, Bauxite, =
Calcite,=20
> Cinnabar, Gypsum, Realgar and a few others are all possibilities.  Any =

> additional info such as Specific Gravity, Hardness, Streak Color, =
Refraction,=20
> Cleavage and Odor (when heated) will help to differentiate between the =

> minerals.  I have many gemological / mineralogical ref's to use, and =
in=20
> looking at them it would seem that Streak Color in these softer =
materials is=20
> an important item.  Let me know and I'll see what I can dig up.   =
Barney Fife
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ratcliff's Found Minerals
Date: 18 Mar 2000 23:16:32 EST

In a message dated 3/18/00 7:21:38 PM Pacific Standard Time, [e-mail]
writes:

> There are some dark brown to black fine streaks.

Lanney, If the fine lines you mention are in the mineral, it sounds more like
Catlinite. According to legend: Another phenomena that shows itself is what
the crafts-people call a heart-line. It is a hair-thick line that is straight
and a different color, (usually black,) to the stone. It looks like a crack
but it isn't. If one of these is found in the stone, it is thought to be
highly lucky for both the crafts-person and the person who ends up with the
item it is in.          Barney

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From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan.
Date: 18 Mar 2000 22:11:02 -0800 (PST)

John,

I would agree with the Capt. and Joe; have also tanned hides that had been
salted for quite a while and they came out very good.  I soaked them well
and got all the salt out; didn't have any problems at all.

Best Regards,

Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
_______________________________________________________________________________

At 01:05 PM 03/18/2000 -0800, you wrote:
>Joe,
>I thought "salted" hides would not work for braining??  Am I wrong?
>John Funk
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2000 12:28 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan.
>
>
>> I have deer, elk cow and buffalo rawide, also green salted deer, elk,
>> and buffalo hides. Both will work for brain tanning
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:16:29 -0600
Date: 19 Mar 2000 07:19:25 -0600

Lanney, It's difficult to say what it is that you picked up. You and I must
have the same genes somewhere though, because I am a notorious picker upper
of stones and what not also. They usually end up filling icecream pails or
coffee cans, and then they reside in my shop or somewhere for eternity. I
should mention that I have picked up lots of neat things in some very odd
places including construction sites everything from indian artifacts, fur
trade items, old coins, I even found a nice pipestone pipe once.
Nodules found in soft shaley clay and weathered limestone doesn't seem to
match the conditions pipestone is usually found under, from my
understanding. I can fax you some info about the catlanite quarries in
Minnesota which you were referring to earlier. This would explain the
conditions, composition , and other information relating to pipestone found
in that locality. That is where it occurs in the largest amounts and has
been extensively mined by aboriginals. Did you know it was named after
George Catlin?

northwoods


-----Original Message-----


Ho the list,
Today on a construction site I found a number of small (2"-5" diameter)
flat (1"-1 1/2" thick) stones, reddish brown in color...more red than brown
that are lightweight for their size.  I haven't had the opportunity to
determine the specific gravity, but I will next week.  These stones were
found as nodules in layers of gray and tan shaley clay or in soft weathered
limestone and are quite soft...they can be scraped with a fingernail.  When
washed they erode slightly with a slightly "slimey" feel...like wet silty
clay.  They can be carved easily with a pocket knife.   The cuttings stain
the hands a ruddy color.  The stone looks like a pipestone (catlinite?) pipe
I once had, but I have been led to believe that pipestone is found almost
entirely in the Great Lakes region.  I'm stumped.
Anybody have an opinion?
Lanney Ratcliff



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From: "Poorboy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Rock pickin..
Date: 19 Mar 2000 05:37:20 -0800

Klahowya Lanney,
Where are you located at, or more specifically the construction site?  This
sounds a lot like scoria rock like I grew up within MT.  It is plate like in
structure, is a iron oxide red in color, has many veins or darker red,
brown, and black in it.  When it gets wet it is extremely slippery.  It
flakes and crumbles easily, and usually holds nice fossil imprints.  I am
sure scoria is not the technical name, but someone else on the list can help
us with that.
YMOS
PoorBoy


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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rock pickin..
Date: 19 Mar 2000 07:51:50 -0600

That matches the discription of my rocks except that I have found =
relatively few veins.  The site is in Roanoak, Texas, a northern suburb =
of Ft Worth.  Below two or three feet of clay and sandy clay much of the =
site consists of weathered limestone....basically crumbled, fairly soft =
limestone fragments imbedded in limestone that has deteriorated into a =
ten clay-like matrix.  This is where I found the red stones.
Thanks
Lanney
----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2000 7:37 AM


> Klahowya Lanney,
> Where are you located at, or more specifically the construction site?  =
This
> sounds a lot like scoria rock like I grew up within MT.  It is plate =
like in
> structure, is a iron oxide red in color, has many veins or darker red,
> brown, and black in it.  When it gets wet it is extremely slippery.  =
It
> flakes and crumbles easily, and usually holds nice fossil imprints.  I =
am
> sure scoria is not the technical name, but someone else on the list =
can help
> us with that.
> YMOS
> PoorBoy
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: museums
Date: 18 Mar 2000 10:14:33 -0500

bearclaw
believe Lee has checked out of the net---someone on the list might
confirm this but i believe he passed about a year ago---his wife also
works there and is a expert on beads--"old trade Beads"---lee was a hell
of a guy and usto write in muzzle blast and give info on gunmakers---he
has one of the best databases I know of on makers and all.

he assisted me several times---

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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From: Ronald Schrotter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Lost Brother
Date: 19 Mar 2000 07:51:24 -0800 (PST)

While attending briefly the Bridger Birthday Doin's at
Ft. Bridger I spoke with Joe Funk from Jackson about
an old brother "Pawnee" Buckley, somewhere in Mt.
Does anyone know for sure his location or how to get
in touch with him? Thanks in advance for any help,
YMOS, Dog, Gabe's Hole Brig.

__________________________________________________
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Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan.
Date: 19 Mar 2000 08:27:39 -0800

Thanks, Jerry......
That will simplify matters for me in the future.  Can't imagine where I got
that notion.
John Funk


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2000 10:11 PM


> John,
>
> I would agree with the Capt. and Joe; have also tanned hides that had been
> salted for quite a while and they came out very good.  I soaked them well
> and got all the salt out; didn't have any problems at all.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
>
____________________________________________________________________________
___
>
> At 01:05 PM 03/18/2000 -0800, you wrote:
> >Joe,
> >I thought "salted" hides would not work for braining??  Am I wrong?
> >John Funk
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
> >To: <[e-mail]>
> >Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2000 12:28 PM
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan.
> >
> >
> >> I have deer, elk cow and buffalo rawide, also green salted deer, elk,
> >> and buffalo hides. Both will work for brain tanning
> >>
> >> Joe
> >>
> >> ----------------------
> >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >>
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:16:29 -0600
Date: 19 Mar 2000 10:36:05 -0600


-----Original Message-----


>I wondered if the name came from Catlin.  I also wondered about the stone
being >pipestone since I have seen references to pipestone being quarried
not mined..

Sorry I meant to say quarried, not mined. There are very few instances of
aboriginal people mining anything.
.
> Maybe it will harden in time.

I know that pipestone is soft after first being recovered. It is much easier
to work when "fresh", as are most other stone materials that aboriginals
made implements with. They even employed methods of heat treating to many
types of stones to make them more workable or to improve the way they
fracture although I don't know if they did this with catlanite.

> I was concerned that if it were carved into a pipe and fired up the user
might be breathing in God knows what kind of fumes.

Thats seems to me to be a reasonable concern. Stone in general seems to be a
fairly inert substance. If you could positively identify it as such, which
wouldn't be to difficult if you could show it to someone who is knowledgable
on the subject, I think you would be good to go.

> I wonder if it related to vermillion or cinnibar?  Isn't cinnibar accually
mercury ore? I >remember from chemistry class back in the sixties that the
teacher had a jar of oxide of >mercury powder that when heated would produce
little globules of liquid mercury...which >we all played with, by the way.

I had the similiar experiences when I was younger. Last fall a 7th grader in
a local school got a hold of a tiny (like1oz.)  amount of mercury and took
it out of the class room. Seems some was spilled in different places around
school, and when the authorities found out about it, they closed the school
down and got a HAZMAT team in and after 2 weeks of no classes and $300,000
later they had it cleaned up.

> That powder was very heavy and these stones are noticibly light for their
size.  It's a dang >puzzlement, that's what it is.  Please fax me the
information at 817 268 8602...be sure to >include a cover sheet with my name
on it or the secretary will give it to one of the >engineers.

Pipestone isn't the really that light for it's size. That maybe another
indication that what you found is not catlanite. If you want a pipestone
pipe, or a piece of pipestone to carve one out of I may be able to find one
for ya. I'll get the info out to you tommorrow when I get into the office.

northwoods






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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan.
Date: 19 Mar 2000 08:27:39 -0800

Thanks, Jerry......
That will simplify matters for me in the future.  Can't imagine where I got
that notion.
John Funk


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2000 10:11 PM


> John,
>
> I would agree with the Capt. and Joe; have also tanned hides that had been
> salted for quite a while and they came out very good.  I soaked them well
> and got all the salt out; didn't have any problems at all.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
>
____________________________________________________________________________
___
>
> At 01:05 PM 03/18/2000 -0800, you wrote:
> >Joe,
> >I thought "salted" hides would not work for braining??  Am I wrong?
> >John Funk
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
> >To: <[e-mail]>
> >Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2000 12:28 PM
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan.
> >
> >
> >> I have deer, elk cow and buffalo rawide, also green salted deer, elk,
> >> and buffalo hides. Both will work for brain tanning
> >>
> >> Joe
> >>
> >> ----------------------
> >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >>
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:16:29 -0600
Date: 19 Mar 2000 11:37:13 -0600

The weight was what caused me to doubt that it is pipestone.  If I look =
around some I bet that I can find the pipe that was a gift from my AMM =
sponsor, James Craker.  Looks like a little tomahawk.  Maybe I will =
carve something and let it dry for a time and see what happens.  Maybe =
an amulet or talisman instead of a pipe.  No fumes from a thing like =
that.  Thanks in advance for the faxed info.
Lanney

----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2000 10:36 AM


>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: March 19, 2000 7:41 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:16:29 -0600
>=20
>=20
> >I wondered if the name came from Catlin.  I also wondered about the =
stone
> being >pipestone since I have seen references to pipestone being =
quarried
> not mined..
>=20
> Sorry I meant to say quarried, not mined. There are very few instances =
of
> aboriginal people mining anything.
> .
> > Maybe it will harden in time.
>=20
> I know that pipestone is soft after first being recovered. It is much =
easier
> to work when "fresh", as are most other stone materials that =
aboriginals
> made implements with. They even employed methods of heat treating to =
many
> types of stones to make them more workable or to improve the way they
> fracture although I don't know if they did this with catlanite.
>=20
> > I was concerned that if it were carved into a pipe and fired up the =
user
> might be breathing in God knows what kind of fumes.
>=20
> Thats seems to me to be a reasonable concern. Stone in general seems =
to be a
> fairly inert substance. If you could positively identify it as such, =
which
> wouldn't be to difficult if you could show it to someone who is =
knowledgable
> on the subject, I think you would be good to go.
>=20
> > I wonder if it related to vermillion or cinnibar?  Isn't cinnibar =
accually
> mercury ore? I >remember from chemistry class back in the sixties that =
the
> teacher had a jar of oxide of >mercury powder that when heated would =
produce
> little globules of liquid mercury...which >we all played with, by the =
way.
>=20
> I had the similiar experiences when I was younger. Last fall a 7th =
grader in
> a local school got a hold of a tiny (like1oz.)  amount of mercury and =
took
> it out of the class room. Seems some was spilled in different places =
around
> school, and when the authorities found out about it, they closed the =
school
> down and got a HAZMAT team in and after 2 weeks of no classes and =
$300,000
> later they had it cleaned up.
>=20
> > That powder was very heavy and these stones are noticibly light for =
their
> size.  It's a dang >puzzlement, that's what it is.  Please fax me the
> information at 817 268 8602...be sure to >include a cover sheet with =
my name
> on it or the secretary will give it to one of the >engineers.
>=20
> Pipestone isn't the really that light for it's size. That maybe =
another
> indication that what you found is not catlanite. If you want a =
pipestone
> pipe, or a piece of pipestone to carve one out of I may be able to =
find one
> for ya. I'll get the info out to you tommorrow when I get into the =
office.
>=20
> northwoods
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Catlinite Pipe Stone & Indian Beaded Pipe Bags
Date: 19 Mar 2000 10:51:22 -0700

Contact [e-mail] for Catlinite pipe stone and Indian beaded pipe
bags.  One of his 3 stores is located in nearby Billings, MT and he has a
lot of connections with Indian beaders.
Walt
Park City, Montana


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Scoria Rock
Date: 19 Mar 2000 14:15:53 EST

(from the Audubon Society Guide to North American Rocks & Minerals, 1978,
Chesterman).  Scoria is Basalt; comes from volcanic flows, and although
usually dark gray to black, in fresh flows may have a dark brown to reddish
rust color.

As to Catlinite, it is a clay (silicate of alumina), and exhibits manys of
the properties of, (i.e. hardens over time) and is found in conjunction with
clays.  This site has pics, descriptions, composition, look-alikes, and some
history        <A HREF="http://www.littlefeathercenter.com/Catlinite.html">Cat
linite </A>            Barney Fife

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Matthew Porter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 19 Mar 2000 13:27:53 -0600

Matt in Texas,
    I know that the riflemen of the Revionutionary War kept company with
curs.
I guess that the frontiersmen and mountain men might have had them too.

YMOS
Matt in Arkansas

>Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 07:02:32 -0600
>From: "Matt  P" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: MtMan-List: Dogs?
>
>Ho the List!
>I've been lurking for awhile, with nothing to contribute, but I've been
>wondering about something.  Did the frontiersmen and mountain men  have any
>dogs with them?I know from my own experience that I can get a little crazy
>without other people to talk with, but if I have my dog with me, I could go
>for days without other people.  I wonder if the frontiersmen had any
similar
>experiences.
>Matt in Texas
><[e-mail]>
>                Moonwolf's Den
>http://pages.ivillage.com/misc/txmoonwolf/



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From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 19 Mar 2000 13:40:07 -0800

On Sun, 19 March 2000, "Matthew Porter" wrote:

>
> Matt in Texas,
>     I know that the riflemen of the Revionutionary War kept company with
> curs.
> I guess that the frontiersmen and mountain men might have had them too.
>
> YMOS
> Matt in Arkansas
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Matt,

I will have to do some digging tonight, where several articles over the years in Buckskin Report, Muzzleloader, Muzzle Blasts, etc. of folks having dogs with them from the earliest recorded records of North American settlements, scouts, long hunters to reports of bands of dogs becoming a problem for settlers after the Indian Wars.  Don't forget that big dog that Lewis & Clark had or the voyagers dogs and those stories.

I see what I have stored away and some references.

Another thought was the large number of dogs that the Indians had for work, company and if need be food.


Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Scoria Rock
Date: 19 Mar 2000 15:51:51 -0600


-----Original Message-----



>As to Catlinite, it is a clay (silicate of alumina), and exhibits manys of
>the properties of, (i.e. hardens over time) and is found in conjunction
with
>clays.

The pipestone deposits in southwestern MN  are situated beneath quartzite.
The soil depth varies from 2-4 feet, underneath that is 6-8 ft. of
quartzite, then lies the catlanite layer which is only 3-4" in thickness
rarely more, than solid quartzite bedrock beneath that. It was found
probably because the pipestone was exposed in a nearby creek. It is found in
many other localities, but was never quarried elsewhere other that the MN
deposits. Color is another factor that varies depending upon location, with
no two separate areas producing the same color.

northwoods


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From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan.
Date: 19 Mar 2000 15:01:45 -0700

John,

Dave Christensen had brain tanned with many many different types of
hide in a lot various degrees of preparation. He says that you can
brain tan with commerical made rawhide and/or salted hides if:
You properly wash the hides to remove salt and/or any amounts of
sulfate used in bassififying a commercial rawhide. It requires more
work then if you are using a fresh hide. As for how good the brain
tan turns out..........well as with any hide wheather commerial
tanned or brain tanned. the species of animal, age, geography, health
will have a determination on the quality of tanning. If you tan one
or two hides a year, you will not notice this and may just believe it
is the process you are using. If you tan dozens or hundreds, it is
quite obvious.

Wheather you use straight brains, or mix it with fish oil, soap,
other oils, liver, kidneys or some secret ingrediant, or presmoke
before braining is up to you. the results will vary. Each group of
Indian women found this out many years ago. Not every hide I am sure
turned out bright white and soft. I'm sure they cussed many a time
with a hide that just would not break soft.

But you can brain tan salted hide and commercial rawhide

Joe

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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 19 Mar 2000 16:08:00 -0600


-----Original Message-----


>I will have to do some digging tonight, where several articles over the
years in Buckskin >Report, Muzzleloader, Muzzle Blasts, etc. of folks having
dogs with them from the earliest >recorded records of North American
settlements

Buck, There is an interesting archeological site in Kentucky which dates
from 3000-4000 bc and was excavated in the 50's that documented the
domestication of at least two different varities of dogs at that time. Its
called Indian Knoll. The remains of over two dozen dogs were found when the
excavations were being done and it seems that the dogs were held in high
esteem at that time, even being buried with people, men, women, and
children. Seems like they considered them to be mans best friend even at
that early date, well it's no suprise really the egyptians had domesticated
dogs thousands of years before that.

>Another thought was the large number of dogs that the Indians had for work,
company and if need be food.

Next to the horse I would have to say that dogs were the most common animal
among native american peoples. I couldn't begin to relate all of the
instances in which I have read about the dog being used for food by native
americans. It seems that it was a delicacy that was held in quite high
esteem and reserved for special occaisions. Other than Lewis and Clark, I
don't believe I could point to a single instance in which I have read that a
non-indian participating in the rocky mountain fur trade had a dog as a
companion. Hard to believe, I would like to see any references you might be
able to come up with that would show to the contrary.

northwoods
>
>
>Later
>Buck Conner
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
>                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
>
>----------------------
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>


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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 19 Mar 2000 15:06:45 -0700

The Crow called the first horses out here Elk Dogs.
Walt
Park City, Montana


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2000 3:08 PM


>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: March 19, 2000 3:40 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
>
>
> >I will have to do some digging tonight, where several articles over the
> years in Buckskin >Report, Muzzleloader, Muzzle Blasts, etc. of folks
having
> dogs with them from the earliest >recorded records of North American
> settlements
>
> Buck, There is an interesting archeological site in Kentucky which dates
> from 3000-4000 bc and was excavated in the 50's that documented the
> domestication of at least two different varities of dogs at that time. Its
> called Indian Knoll. The remains of over two dozen dogs were found when
the
> excavations were being done and it seems that the dogs were held in high
> esteem at that time, even being buried with people, men, women, and
> children. Seems like they considered them to be mans best friend even at
> that early date, well it's no suprise really the egyptians had
domesticated
> dogs thousands of years before that.
>
> >Another thought was the large number of dogs that the Indians had for
work,
> company and if need be food.
>
> Next to the horse I would have to say that dogs were the most common
animal
> among native american peoples. I couldn't begin to relate all of the
> instances in which I have read about the dog being used for food by native
> americans. It seems that it was a delicacy that was held in quite high
> esteem and reserved for special occaisions. Other than Lewis and Clark, I
> don't believe I could point to a single instance in which I have read that
a
> non-indian participating in the rocky mountain fur trade had a dog as a
> companion. Hard to believe, I would like to see any references you might
be
> able to come up with that would show to the contrary.
>
> northwoods
> >
> >
> >Later
> >Buck Conner
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
> >                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
> >
> >----------------------
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> >
>
>
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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 19 Mar 2000 16:24:00 -0600


-----Original Message-----


>The Crow called the first horses out here Elk Dogs.
>Walt
>Park City, Montana


Hi Walt, thats interesting and I think it says a lot as to the importance of
dogs, and horses to the native americans.

northwoods


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From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 19 Mar 2000 15:47:02 PST



I know I'm probably wrong on the names but didn't one of the Sublette's, and
Harris have a dog with them on their "Winter Express," to the east.  If my
memory serves me correctly, they used the dog to pack dry meat, and they may
have ended up eating him as well.
C
______________________________________________________
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From: Daniel Kimball <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 19 Mar 2000 17:45:39 -0600


--------------2EC5DAA78B643810321C883C
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello list members, I have been lurking for about 2 months because of my
interest in AMM. This is the first time I had anything to say, I sure
didn't know that those Dutch Ovens were so involved. But, Matt in Texas
was asking about the Mountain Men having dogs. I have read several
accounts of Mountain Men, one being Hugh Glass, and in most of the books
that mentioned anything about dogs they said that the Mountain Men
didn't have dogs. They said that if there was someone trailing them and
the dog started barking it would let them know where they were at and
that would draw attention to them making it easier to locate them if
they were trying to avoid being found. In Hugh Glass, it said that the
only friend a Mountain Man had was his gun. I am no authority by no
means, but thought that I would relay at least what I have read and also
introduce myself as a lurker and have much interest in what you are
saying. I have learn a lot just reading all the threads that have been
running the last 2 months. I have enjoyed most of what I read and what I
didn't like I just ignored it like most of you.

                                            Sincerely,
                            Daniel"TexasBluBoy"Kimball

--------------2EC5DAA78B643810321C883C
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<i><font face="Baskerville"><font color="#000066"><font size=+1>Hello list
members, I have been lurking for about 2 months because of my interest
in AMM. This is the first time I had anything to say, I sure didn't know
that those Dutch Ovens were so involved. But, Matt in Texas was asking
about the Mountain Men having dogs. I have read several accounts of Mountain
Men, one being Hugh Glass, and in most of the books that mentioned anything
about dogs they said that the Mountain Men didn't have dogs. They said
that if there was someone trailing them and the dog started barking it
would let them know where they were at and that would draw attention to
them making it easier to locate them if they were trying to avoid being
found. In Hugh Glass, it said that the only friend a Mountain Man had was
his gun. I am no authority by no means, but thought that I would relay
at least what I have read and also introduce myself as a lurker and have
much interest in what you are saying. I have learn a lot just reading all
the threads that have been running the last 2 months. I have enjoyed most
of what I read and what I didn't like I just ignored it like most of you.</font></font></font></i><i><font face="Baskerville"><font color="#000066"><font size=+1></font></font></font></i>
<p><i><font face="Baskerville"><font color="#000066"><font size=+1>
Sincerely,</font></font></font></i>
<br><i><font face="Baskerville"><font color="#000066"><font size=+1>
Daniel"TexasBluBoy"Kimball</font></font></font></i></html>

--------------2EC5DAA78B643810321C883C--


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From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 19 Mar 2000 16:57:27 PST



According to Robert Campbell's Narrative, he had in his company four dogs
while he was snowshoeing around the countryside.

Cliff Tiffie
PO Box 5089
Durant, OK
74702
580-924-4187
---------------------
Aux Aliments de Pays!

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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From: tom roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: linen and flax
Date: 19 Mar 2000 20:05:22 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Hello the list:

Wishing to learn a bit more about the origin and manufacture of linen
I came across the following informative website:

http://www.linen-flax.com/arbo.html

Now, a question for those who may be in the know;
The linen which was shipped westward and made it's way
onto the various bills of goods was of what weave?

Tom

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Content-Base: "http://www.linen-flax.com/arbo.html"
Content-Location: "http://www.linen-flax.com/arbo.html"

<HTML>
<HEAD>
    <TITLE>English: linen flax </TITLE>
    <META name=3D"description" content=3D"EN FRANCAIS-IN  ENGLISH-les pro=
fessionnels des semences : fibre , fil , tissus , materiel , commerce">
    <META  name=3D"keywords" content=3D"linen , flax ">
</HEAD>
<BODY BACKGROUND=3D"Image/back.jpg" LINK=3D"#000000">
<P><CENTER><IMG SRC=3D"Image/l.gif" WIDTH=3D"408" HEIGHT=3D"4" ALIGN=3D"M=
IDDLE"
NATURALSIZEFLAG=3D"3"></CENTER>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<H1><IMG SRC=3D"Image/graph5.gif" WIDTH=3D"58" HEIGHT=3D"57" ALIGN=3D"MID=
DLE" NATURALSIZEFLAG=3D
"3"><A HREF=3D"origins0.html">THE ORIGINS</A><BR>
<IMG SRC=3D"Image/graph5.gif" WIDTH=3D"58" HEIGHT=3D"57" ALIGN=3D"MIDDLE"=
 NATURALSIZEFLAG=3D
"3"><A HREF=3D"transfo1.html">THE TRANSFORMATION</A><BR>
<IMG SRC=3D"Image/graph5.gif" WIDTH=3D"58" HEIGHT=3D"57" ALIGN=3D"MIDDLE"=
 NATURALSIZEFLAG=3D
"3"><A HREF=3D"uses1.html">THE USES OF LINEN</A><BR>
<IMG SRC=3D"Image/graph5.gif" WIDTH=3D"58" HEIGHT=3D"57" ALIGN=3D"MIDDLE"=
 NATURALSIZEFLAG=3D
"3"><A HREF=3D"arboa.html">ADDRESSES</A><BR>
<IMG SRC=3D"Image/graph5.gif" WIDTH=3D"58" HEIGHT=3D"57" ALIGN=3D"MIDDLE"=
 NATURALSIZEFLAG=3D
"3"><A HREF=3D"contact1.html">CONTACT</A></H1>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><CENTER><IMG SRC=3D"Image/l.gif" WIDTH=3D"408" HEIGHT=3D"4" ALIGN=3D"T=
OP" NATURALSIZEFLAG=3D
"3"> <BR>
<A HREF=3D"arbof.html">Francais<IMG SRC=3D"Image/ffr.gif" WIDTH=3D"34" HE=
IGHT=3D
"33" ALIGN=3D"MIDDLE" NATURALSIZEFLAG=3D"3" BORDER=3D"0"></A><A HREF=3D"m=
ap.html">Map</A></CENTER>
</BODY>



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From: David Mullen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 19 Mar 2000 20:13:25 -0700

Although not involved in the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade, Stephen Long had t=
wo
Mastiffs along on his Southwest expedition. Neither dog completed the jou=
rney,
yet neither was consumed as food. (Benson - From Pittsburgh To The Rocky
Mountains: Major Stephen Long=92s Expedition- 1819-1820) Similarly, John =
C.
Fr=C8mont had a dog on his second expedition. Fr=C8mont ended up eating t=
his dog
when times got rough. (Guild & Carter - Kit Carson, A Pattern for Heroes)=
=2E

David Mullen

------

northwoods wrote:

> Next to the horse I would have to say that dogs were the most common an=
imal
> among native american peoples. I couldn't begin to relate all of the
> instances in which I have read about the dog being used for food by nat=
ive
> americans. It seems that it was a delicacy that was held in quite high
> esteem and reserved for special occaisions. Other than Lewis and Clark,=
 I
> don't believe I could point to a single instance in which I have read t=
hat a
> non-indian participating in the rocky mountain fur trade had a dog as a=

> companion. Hard to believe, I would like to see any references you migh=
t be
> able to come up with that would show to the contrary.




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From: JW Stephens <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 19 Mar 2000 19:43:31 -0800

Diah Smith's journals include dogs as stock and food items when needed.

B'st'rd

northwoods wrote:

> Other than Lewis and Clark, I
> don't believe I could point to a single instance in which I have read that a
> non-indian participating in the rocky mountain fur trade had a dog as a
> companion. Hard to believe, I would like to see any references you might be
> able to come up with that would show to the contrary.

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From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Advice for a beginner.
Date: 19 Mar 2000 21:10:21 -0700

Bill,
how heavy of leather do you need for splits. deer or elk? Latigo is
$4 sq ft, do you need sides of it or just pieces?

Joe

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 19 Mar 2000 23:41:11 EST

Yes, there are numerous examples of mountainmen utilizing dogs.  I once asked
about dogs (especially hounds) used for hunting by mountainmen.  The response
I got was, for the most part, inaccurate and unsatisfactory.  Since then I
have found quite a few references to dogs and their use in primary sources
from the fur-trade era and just after.

The most interesting reference I've found is from an unpublished manuscript
by William "Uncle Billy" Hamilton (MT Hist. Soc.) who describes a hunting and
trapping expedition from the Pryor Mtns. to the Bighorn Basin and the S. Fork
of the Shoshone (Stinking Water) R., over the Owl Creeks and into the Wind
River Basin.  They finally crossed the Winds and went into camp near Horse
Creek, before going to Fort Bridger to sell their catch and then heading west
to the CA gold fields.  Hamilton discusses two excellent hunting dogs they
party had along that they used to help them drive bighorn sheep herds towards
the hunters.  He credits the dogs with keeping the herd bunched up so that
the trappers could kill "twelve fine does, three rams, and two yearlings."

According to Hamilton, the trappers on this 1848-49 expedition also spent
time hunting bears and mountain lions.  As I well know, the only effective
way to hunt lions is with trained hounds, so I am tempted to presume these
dogs were also lion hunters.  (By the way, I caught a 100 lb. female lion
with my hounds this morning, up in Douglas Co., CO about 10 miles from my
house).

Other interesting references to dogs include (but are no way limited to) KIT
CARSON'S AUTOBIOGRAPHY (Lincoln, 1966) pg. 30: "We had a very watchful dog
with us and during the night he kept barking continually.  We were aware of
the Indians being close and kept good watch," and Warren Angus Ferris'
description of "black hound" that an Indian used for hunting lynx.  But
probably the greatest reference is the tale of Andy Sublette and his bear dog
"Buck" from Gowan's MOUNTAIN MAN AND GRIZZLY (1986, Orem Utah, pg. 175-176.)

Do not be misled by those who argue that dogs served no purpose in the camps
of the mountain men, that they served only as a food source and were
considered "nuisances."  That attitude indicates:
1) A lack of familiarity w/ relevant primary sources.
2) Ignorance of hunting dogs, which constitute an important part of early
American hunting lore.

John R. Sweet

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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 19 Mar 2000 23:02:42 -0600

You are right.  Attitude indicates a lot about a man.
L.Ratcliff

----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2000 10:41 PM


> Yes, there are numerous examples of mountainmen utilizing dogs.  I =
once asked=20
> about dogs (especially hounds) used for hunting by mountainmen.  The =
response=20
> I got was, for the most part, inaccurate and unsatisfactory.  Since =
then I=20
> have found quite a few references to dogs and their use in primary =
sources=20
> from the fur-trade era and just after.
>=20
> The most interesting reference I've found is from an unpublished =
manuscript=20
> by William "Uncle Billy" Hamilton (MT Hist. Soc.) who describes a =
hunting and=20
> trapping expedition from the Pryor Mtns. to the Bighorn Basin and the =
S. Fork=20
> of the Shoshone (Stinking Water) R., over the Owl Creeks and into the =
Wind=20
> River Basin.  They finally crossed the Winds and went into camp near =
Horse=20
> Creek, before going to Fort Bridger to sell their catch and then =
heading west=20
> to the CA gold fields.  Hamilton discusses two excellent hunting dogs =
they=20
> party had along that they used to help them drive bighorn sheep herds =
towards=20
> the hunters.  He credits the dogs with keeping the herd bunched up so =
that=20
> the trappers could kill "twelve fine does, three rams, and two =
yearlings."
>=20
> According to Hamilton, the trappers on this 1848-49 expedition also =
spent=20
> time hunting bears and mountain lions.  As I well know, the only =
effective=20
> way to hunt lions is with trained hounds, so I am tempted to presume =
these=20
> dogs were also lion hunters.  (By the way, I caught a 100 lb. female =
lion=20
> with my hounds this morning, up in Douglas Co., CO about 10 miles from =
my=20
> house).
>=20
> Other interesting references to dogs include (but are no way limited =
to) KIT=20
> CARSON'S AUTOBIOGRAPHY (Lincoln, 1966) pg. 30: "We had a very watchful =
dog=20
> with us and during the night he kept barking continually.  We were =
aware of=20
> the Indians being close and kept good watch," and Warren Angus Ferris' =

> description of "black hound" that an Indian used for hunting lynx.  =
But=20
> probably the greatest reference is the tale of Andy Sublette and his =
bear dog=20
> "Buck" from Gowan's MOUNTAIN MAN AND GRIZZLY (1986, Orem Utah, pg. =
175-176.)
>=20
> Do not be misled by those who argue that dogs served no purpose in the =
camps=20
> of the mountain men, that they served only as a food source and were=20
> considered "nuisances."  That attitude indicates:
> 1) A lack of familiarity w/ relevant primary sources.
> 2) Ignorance of hunting dogs, which constitute an important part of =
early=20
> American hunting lore.
>=20
> John R. Sweet
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: Larry Butler <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: dogs
Date: 19 Mar 2000 21:03:28 -0800

I read somewhere of a moutain man loosing his dog, as he jumped into a hot
springs not knowing it was scalding.

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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 19 Mar 2000 22:22:33 -0700

 Good local reference.  It is not far from the Pryor Mountains in Montana to
the Wyoming border.  From high in some places in the Pryors you can see over
to the South Fork of the Shoshone.  You can look down the long face of the
mountains to the low pass over the Owl Mountains.  The party would have
passed the Graybull river around Meteesee, Wyoming after they back tracked
out of the S. Fork.  This is the same route traveled by John Colter.  Dogs
also serve as the camp vacuum cleaner.   I see the Pryors everyday and each
time sparks some memory or another.
Walt
Park City, Montana


> The most interesting reference I've found is from an unpublished
manuscript
> by William "Uncle Billy" Hamilton (MT Hist. Soc.) who describes a hunting
and
> trapping expedition from the Pryor Mtns. to the Bighorn Basin and the S.
Fork
> of the Shoshone (Stinking Water) R., over the Owl Creeks and into the Wind
> River Basin.

> Do not be misled by those who argue that dogs served no purpose in the
camps
> of the mountain men, that they served only as a food source and were
> considered "nuisances."  That attitude indicates:
> 1) A lack of familiarity w/ relevant primary sources.
> 2) Ignorance of hunting dogs, which constitute an important part of early
> American hunting lore.
>
> John R. Sweet




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From: "Matt  P" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 20 Mar 2000 02:06:08 -0600

>
>Next to the horse I would have to say that dogs were the most common animal
>among native american peoples. I couldn't begin to relate all of the
>instances in which I have read about the dog being used for food by native
>americans. It seems that it was a delicacy that was held in quite high
>esteem and reserved for special occaisions. Other than Lewis and Clark, I
>don't believe I could point to a single instance in which I have read that
a
>non-indian participating in the rocky mountain fur trade had a dog as a
>companion. Hard to believe, I would like to see any references you might be
>able to come up with that would show to the contrary.
>
>northwoods

I've read some of this in the history books (re: Indians using dogs as food
in emergencies).  I've also read of them using the dogs more as pack animals
before the Spaniards introduced the horse to the New World.  They would hook
up a travois (sp?) to the dogs and load up their gear in their migrations
following the buffalo.  I've also read about the American Indian Dog, which
has been saved from a near extinction after many years of neglect.
    I saw in this month's issue of one of the dog magazines (can't afford to
buy it 'til after payday) an article about the Newfoundland that accompanied
Lewis and Clark across the country.  I guess this article is what prompted
me to ask this question.  Thanks to everyone who answered.
Matt in Texas
<[e-mail]>
                Moonwolf's Den
http://pages.ivillage.com/misc/txmoonwolf/


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Ruxton
Date: 20 Mar 2000 03:14:50 EST

Ho the List,

I have just about finished reading "Life in the Far West" by G. F. Ruxton and
would like some views on the book. I found it to be outstanding if for only
his writing in  the "mountain man" vernacular and the 24 B/W Miller prints!
Had to read some pages several times just to figure out what was said...great
stuff!

Ymos,
Steve

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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 20 Mar 2000 07:13:38 -0600


-----Original Message-----

>Do not be misled by those who argue that dogs served no purpose in the
camps
>of the mountain men, that they served only as a food source and were
>considered "nuisances."  That attitude indicates:
>1) A lack of familiarity w/ relevant primary sources.
>2) Ignorance of hunting dogs, which constitute an important part of early
>American hunting lore.


I don't think anybody has yet argued that dogs served no purpose in the
camps of the mountain men. Just that there aren't that many instances of
them having dogs. That seems particularly apparent when you contrast how
numerous dogs were in native american life.
The Sublette bear encounter you talk about occurred in 1854, the Hamilton
trip in 1848-49, and Carsons autobiography encompasses a lot of area over a
large time period.
Dogs were mostly considered as a food source by the indians and not the
mountain men. I think the part of the reason it has been written about so
much is because it was considered to be a pretty novel (maybe a little down
rite repugnant) idea by non-indians who witnessed it and sometimes were
required to participate in it.
To anyone who was participating in actual trapping, dogs would not be a good
thing to have around. And if someone were trying to travel un-noticed, there
again a dog would not be an asset. For hunting thats a different story, or
in a permanent camp, or travelers who were not concerned about there
whereabouts being discovered.
J.W. Stephens gave a reference as to Smith having dogs on some of his
travels I think i'll look that up it sounds interesting. And Chance gave
another in Campells travels i'll have to look at that also. I don't believe
that to many non-indian paticipants in the fur trade had dogs when trapping
was the primary objective and troubles with various native american tribes
was happening.

northwood


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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton
Date: 20 Mar 2000 07:32:50 -0600


-----Original Message-----


>Ho the List,
>
>I have just about finished reading "Life in the Far West" by G. F. Ruxton
and
>would like some views on the book.

Its a classic. Anyone who has never read it...should.

> I found it to be outstanding if for only
>his writing in  the "mountain man" vernacular and the 24 B/W Miller prints!
>Had to read some pages several times just to figure out what was
said...great
>stuff!

He wrote another book that predates "Life in the Far West". Its called
"Mexico and the Rocky Mountains" and documents his travels through Mexico
and into what is now the southwestern U.S., this book to is "great stuff"
and shows well Ruxtons ability to describe what the saw in great detail. I
think it was first published in 47' in London, and then 48' in New York, and
unfortunately not re-published after that. I could be mistaken about that I
have just never seen it to often. And since I found an early copy I never
really looked for it. Steve if you want to read this book and can't find an
original you could read mine.

northwoods


>
>Ymos,
>Steve
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>s


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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 20 Mar 2000 08:16:49 -0600


-----Original Message-----

>    I saw in this month's issue of one of the dog magazines (can't afford
to
>buy it 'til after payday) an article about the Newfoundland that
accompanied
>Lewis and Clark across the country

Which dog magazine? I would like to look at this article. My wife and I get
most of the "dog magazines"  at our vet clinic, but I hardly ever get a
chance to look at any. If I have the magazine, don't bother buying it I can
send it to ya if you would like.

northwoods




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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan.
Date: 19 Mar 2000 21:55:56 -0800

Good information, Joe.  Thank you.  I will readjust my thinking.
John Funk
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2000 2:01 PM


> John,
>
> Dave Christensen had brain tanned with many many different types of
> hide in a lot various degrees of preparation. He says that you can
> brain tan with commerical made rawhide and/or salted hides if:
> You properly wash the hides to remove salt and/or any amounts of
> sulfate used in bassififying a commercial rawhide. It requires more
> work then if you are using a fresh hide. As for how good the brain
> tan turns out..........well as with any hide wheather commerial
> tanned or brain tanned. the species of animal, age, geography, health
> will have a determination on the quality of tanning. If you tan one
> or two hides a year, you will not notice this and may just believe it
> is the process you are using. If you tan dozens or hundreds, it is
> quite obvious.
>
> Wheather you use straight brains, or mix it with fish oil, soap,
> other oils, liver, kidneys or some secret ingrediant, or presmoke
> before braining is up to you. the results will vary. Each group of
> Indian women found this out many years ago. Not every hide I am sure
> turned out bright white and soft. I'm sure they cussed many a time
> with a hide that just would not break soft.
>
> But you can brain tan salted hide and commercial rawhide
>
> Joe
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton
Date: 20 Mar 2000 07:44:10 -0700

Steve,
    George Ruxton was a great guy, and a good writer. Some will frown on his
writing style, specially the way he says the mountaineers spoke, but I love him.
You will find part of his "mexican travels" in "Ruxton of the Rockies". Another
of his you need to read. I live close to the areas he describes in what is now
Colorado and know why he loved the area so much. Mr. Ruxton traveled many places
in the world and loved the west in America the best. What a shame he died when
returning to the west a second time. He is buried in St.Louis in a unmarked
grave. Glad to hear people continue to enjoy his work!
                                                                        mike.

[e-mail] wrote:

> Ho the List,
>
> I have just about finished reading "Life in the Far West" by G. F. Ruxton and
> would like some views on the book. I found it to be outstanding if for only
> his writing in  the "mountain man" vernacular and the 24 B/W Miller prints!
> Had to read some pages several times just to figure out what was said...great
> stuff!
>
> Ymos,
> Steve
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 20 Mar 2000 06:51:57 -0800

On Mon, 20 March 2000, "northwoods" wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matt P <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: March 20, 2000 2:04 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
>
> >    I saw in this month's issue of one of the dog magazines (can't afford
> to
> >buy it 'til after payday) an article about the Newfoundland that
> accompanied
> >Lewis and Clark across the country
>
> Which dog magazine? I would like to look at this article. My wife and I get
> most of the "dog magazines"  at our vet clinic, but I hardly ever get a
> chance to look at any. If I have the magazine, don't bother buying it I can
> send it to ya if you would like.
>
> northwoods
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Tony,
Why not post that information, seems there's some interest in the subject "dogs".

Reference has been made that many haven't seen that much documented information about dogs traveling in the fur trade period. Possibly it was not considered an unusual event and many didn't record it.

Seems today we record more of a variety of things than some did from the past. Hanson claimed that common events of the day missed being recorded in many of the old jounrals, they recorded what was important to them or their area. Possibly the individual's dog being a common hunting or traveling companion wasn't considered unusual ???

Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

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From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 20 Mar 2000 07:34:08 PST

To those of you who are interested, I researched the particular story I
mentioned yesterday concerning the Winter Express.  It is told in "River of
the West," chapter three.  William Sublette and Moses  "Black " Harris, with
several dogs, on snow shoes to St. Louis.  I was thankful I found the
information as I thought I could have imagined it.

Cliff Tiffie
PO Box 5089
Durant, OK
74702
580-924-4187
---------------------
Aux Aliments de Pays!

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton
Date: 20 Mar 2000 10:34:32 EST

An essential companion book to LIFE IN THE FAR WEST is RUXTON OF THE ROCKIES,
which are his American journals editied by Hafen and Porter (Norman,
1950,1982).

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 20 Mar 2000 10:42:28 EST

northwoods,

any professional or semi-professional trappers that I have met have always
brought a good dog along when checking their trap lines.  A dog is a valuable
asset for recovering traps that have been dragged off into the bushes
somewhere.

As for assigning some arbitrary cutoff date for the "Rocky Mountain Fur Trade
Era" it is unhistorical and unnecessary.  The men on the expedition that
Hamilton describes were mountain men by anyone's definition, facing the same
conditions and engaged in the same work that they had been engaged in 8 or 10
years previous.  They were mountain in the fur trade- no doubt about that.

Check the Carson reference yourself.  It is indisputably "from the period."

There are many, many more references, but I don't have time to catalogue them
all.  I have to give my "Fur Trade" lecture to my freshman history class, and
I want to brag about the lion I caught yesterday.

john

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 20 Mar 2000 10:50:31 EST

Buck,

I am inclined to agree with your idea that dogs were very common in the
trapping expeditions and they are only mentioned when something unusual
involving them occurs.  Just like horses are only mentioned when they have
been stolen, etc.  The references to dogs are plenty numerous enough to
verify their presence, and the fact that certain "good dogs" were treasured
by their owners.  A good dog can be taught not to bark unnecessarily, to hunt
any game from squirrels to grizzlies, and to do immeasurable service route
finding, recovering traps, etc. etc.

What I am most interested in is what various breeds were present in the Far
West.

john

In a message dated 3/20/00 9:52:47 AM SA Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<<
 Tony,
 Why not post that information, seems there's some interest in the subject
"dogs".

 Reference has been made that many haven't seen that much documented
information about dogs traveling in the fur trade period. Possibly it was not
considered an unusual event and many didn't record it.

 Seems today we record more of a variety of things than some did from the
past. Hanson claimed that common events of the day missed being recorded in
many of the old jounrals, they recorded what was important to them or their
area. Possibly the individual's dog being a common hunting or traveling
companion wasn't considered unusual ???

 Later
 Buck Conner >>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Advice for a beginner.
Date: 20 Mar 2000 10:45:46 -0800

Joe, I plan to make some archery quivers from the splits, and the latigo I
need to make wrist guards that will reach clear around the arm. They will
extend from the heel of the hand to about half way to the elbow and the
edges will essentially meet when they are laced up. Do I need to purchase a
side, or are pieces 12" x 8" more economically feasible?
By the way, have you received your book yet?
-----Original Message-----


>Bill,
>how heavy of leather do you need for splits. deer or elk? Latigo is
>$4 sq ft, do you need sides of it or just pieces?
>
>Joe
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 20 Mar 2000 10:49:08 -0800

Check out the mountain man camp journals the years they wintered in Cache
(Willow) Valley. When Black Harris and Fitzpatrick headed out to St. Louis
in February, they had a dog with them (they later killed it in a very
grizzly fashion and ate it).
-----Original Message-----


>>
>>Next to the horse I would have to say that dogs were the most common
animal
>>among native american peoples. I couldn't begin to relate all of the
>>instances in which I have read about the dog being used for food by native
>>americans. It seems that it was a delicacy that was held in quite high
>>esteem and reserved for special occaisions. Other than Lewis and Clark, I
>>don't believe I could point to a single instance in which I have read that
>a
>>non-indian participating in the rocky mountain fur trade had a dog as a
>>companion. Hard to believe, I would like to see any references you might
be
>>able to come up with that would show to the contrary.
>>
>>northwoods
>
>I've read some of this in the history books (re: Indians using dogs as food
>in emergencies).  I've also read of them using the dogs more as pack
animals
>before the Spaniards introduced the horse to the New World.  They would
hook
>up a travois (sp?) to the dogs and load up their gear in their migrations
>following the buffalo.  I've also read about the American Indian Dog, which
>has been saved from a near extinction after many years of neglect.
>    I saw in this month's issue of one of the dog magazines (can't afford
to
>buy it 'til after payday) an article about the Newfoundland that
accompanied
>Lewis and Clark across the country.  I guess this article is what prompted
>me to ask this question.  Thanks to everyone who answered.
>Matt in Texas
><[e-mail]>
>                Moonwolf's Den
>http://pages.ivillage.com/misc/txmoonwolf/
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton
Date: 20 Mar 2000 10:50:25 -0800

Great stuff, yes, but the language he had them using is widely believed to
be only his attempt to capture the southern accents many of the mountain men
had - and judging from the other journals of the time, a poor attempt at
that.
-----Original Message-----


>Ho the List,
>
>I have just about finished reading "Life in the Far West" by G. F. Ruxton
and
>would like some views on the book. I found it to be outstanding if for only
>his writing in  the "mountain man" vernacular and the 24 B/W Miller prints!
>Had to read some pages several times just to figure out what was
said...great
>stuff!
>
>Ymos,
>Steve
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 20 Mar 2000 14:15:21 EST


In a message dated 3/20/00 7:43:18 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<  I have to give my "Fur Trade" lecture to my freshman history class, and
I want to brag about the lion I caught yesterday. >>

Good job on the Lion, John!    You said ya "caught" em...does that mean you
let him go after you treed him/her? I've heard that there ain't much better
eatin than a "Painter".... and I could use a drum stick my own self....

Ymos,
Steve

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton
Date: 20 Mar 2000 14:27:20 EST


In a message dated 3/20/00 5:29:07 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<  Steve if you want to read this book and can't find an

original you could read mine.

 >>

Thanks Northwoods, but think I've located his other two books and will pick
them up. Did you ever get your care package?

Ymos,
Steve

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mitch post <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: digetst 502-Re:Ruxton
Date: 20 Mar 2000 11:53:48 -0800 (PST)

In regards to reading/understanding words written in
the vernacular-I find it's sometimes easier to
understand what's being said if you read the passage
out loud. Have some old "Uncle Remus" stories &
discovered this when reading to my nieces&nephews-Hope
this helps-Mitch

=====
"RIDE THE HIGH TRAIL-NEVER TUCK YOUR TAIL"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton
Date: 20 Mar 2000 17:30:48 EST

If Ruxton "made-up" the mountain man idiom that he uses in his LIFE IN THE
FAR WEST, then why is the idiom that Lewis Garrard describes in his
WAH-TO-YAH AND THE TAOS TRAIL (published in 1850 about his travels on the
Santa Fe Tr. and in NM and CO) so amazingly similar?  Was young Garrard
familiar with Ruxton's work and trying to imitate it?  (They both spelled
"Wagh!" the same way.)  Or did they both faithfully record the speech and
mannerisms of mountainmen as they actually observed it?  I don't suppose
we'll ever know.

john

In a message dated 3/20/00 12:39:02 PM SA Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Great stuff, yes, but the language he had them using is widely believed to
 be only his attempt to capture the southern accents many of the mountain men
 had - and judging from the other journals of the time, a poor attempt at
 that. >>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 20 Mar 2000 17:34:48 EST

Thank you, sir.  We treed this one about 2 miles from Larkspur, CO Elementary
School and right next to a little kid's sandbox.  She had one eye and her
last meal was a porcupine.  So we killed her.  My buddy has the meat at his
house and I intend to get a steak off of him, as my dogs did most of the
work.  The meat is as white as chicken and tastes like lean veal.

John

In a message dated 3/20/00 2:16:22 PM SA Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<<
 Good job on the Lion, John!    You said ya "caught" em...does that mean you
 let him go after you treed him/her? I've heard that there ain't much better
 eatin than a "Painter".... and I could use a drum stick my own self....

 Ymos,
 Steve >>

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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 20 Mar 2000 17:09:18 -0600


-----Original Message-----

>Reference has been made that many haven't seen that much documented
information about dogs traveling in the fur trade period. Possibly it was
not considered an unusual event and many didn't record it.
>
>Seems today we record more of a variety of things than some did from the
past. Hanson claimed that common events of the day missed being recorded in
many of the old jounrals, they recorded what was important to them or their
area. Possibly the individual's dog being a common hunting or traveling
companion wasn't considered unusual ???


I couldn't agree more with what you said Buck. I often think that by reading
every bit of information and first hand accounts available one is still left
with an incomplete picture of the past for the reasons you have mentioned.
Studying the past sure became easier with the advent of photography as many
of the things that otherwise would be lost have been recorded, not because
the photographer was trying to in all cases, but photos don't lie. Well that
doesn't help us in our study of the earlier days, but we can take into
account that certainly many of the more mundane aspects of the rocky
mountain fur trade have been lost. You have done well, in my opinion, by
trying do "historical archeology" and by trying to actually undertake the
tasks that these folks had to deal with. In many cases this enables a person
to meet the challenges that our predecessors had to deal with, and in some
respects enlightens us to some of the aspects of every day life that have
not been recorded. I have your canoe trip in mind when I say this, no better
way to find out what it may have been like than to try and do it.... thats
the way I got it figured anyhow. looking at the dog question from that
perspective I would say that anyone who was actively trapping wouldn't want
a dog around for obvious reasons. And also if I were to be trying to sneak
through some country un-noticed I wouldn't want old Fido along either. It's
awful hard to communicate to a dog why it's important to not bark, or chase
a deer, or defecate in a certain spot (for trapping thats a no-no) it's just
one other factor that is not controllable in a lot of respects. On the other
hand, for someone who was just traveling and they had the where with all to
protect themselves if they were to be attacked a dog would be a great asset
to have around. Not to mention assistance in certain hunting situations. I
don't know what I would do without my two dogs who literally go everywhere
with me and are in the woods with me every day.

northwoods

northwoods


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 20 Mar 2000 18:08:51 EST


In a message dated 3/20/00 2:35:47 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< She had one eye and her
last meal was a porcupine.  So we killed her. >>

Sounds like you did good to take that critter before someone got hurt! We've
got near a plague of them in the NW now that the bunny huggers have put a
stop to dog hunting them and bears. I don't hunt with dogs, but have always
thought it was a good way to control the population. The good news is I've
heard of some boys calling them in with varmint calls and will try to poke
one that way using a Flintlock this year. Tell that class of yours it's OK to
hunt!
Ymos,
Steve

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton/vernacular
Date: 20 Mar 2000 18:27:55 EST


In a message dated 3/20/00 9:39:02 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Great stuff, yes, but the language he had them using is widely believed to

be only his attempt to capture the southern accents many of the mountain men

had - and judging from the other journals of the time, a poor attempt at

that.

- >>

Interesting you should say that.... I was under the impression that Ruxton
was one of the few that tried to use the mountain man language (he WAS there)
in his first person accounts...to Blackwood's Edinburgh Magazine, in 1848.
What other journals used the vernacular that were written prior to that date?
I'd sure like to read them...

Ymos,
Steve

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: trousers or leggings
Date: 20 Mar 2000 18:34:46 EST

Ho the List,

Which was the more commonly worn by the mountain men, brain tan trousers or
leggings?

Ymos,
Steve

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From: Matt Despain <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton
Date: 20 Mar 2000 17:36:24 -0600

What are the sources you use to reference the southern link to the mountain
man's parlance, just currious.  I have wondered much about the southern
influence on mountain man society in all its quarters.  Your mention of
linguistic ties is the first I have hear, and I want to read more about this.

Matt Despain

Bill Cunningham wrote:

> Great stuff, yes, but the language he had them using is widely believed to
> be only his attempt to capture the southern accents many of the mountain men
> had - and judging from the other journals of the time, a poor attempt at
> that.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Monday, March 20, 2000 12:15 AM
> Subject: MtMan-List: Ruxton
>
> >Ho the List,
> >
> >I have just about finished reading "Life in the Far West" by G. F. Ruxton
> and
> >would like some views on the book. I found it to be outstanding if for only
> >his writing in  the "mountain man" vernacular and the 24 B/W Miller prints!
> >Had to read some pages several times just to figure out what was
> said...great
> >stuff!
> >
> >Ymos,
> >Steve
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html




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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton/vernacular
Date: 20 Mar 2000 17:49:04 -0600

Here is a book some of us have talked about in the past. It may shed some
lite on the subject of mountain man speech. I have never read it, but to
those who care to:

The Mountain Man Vernacular: It's Historical roots, It's linguistic Nature,
and it's
Literary Uses   (Amer. Univ. Studies 4 English and Literature , Vol. 22)
By: Richard C Paulsen    1985

Available from Amazon

northwoods



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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton
Date: 20 Mar 2000 17:05:49 -0800

That's probably true that we'll never know. But there have been some recent
writing that claims that Ruxton set the style and everyone subsequent to him
copied it. Beats the tar out of me. But then, most everything does.
Bill
-----Original Message-----


>If Ruxton "made-up" the mountain man idiom that he uses in his LIFE IN THE
>FAR WEST, then why is the idiom that Lewis Garrard describes in his
>WAH-TO-YAH AND THE TAOS TRAIL (published in 1850 about his travels on the
>Santa Fe Tr. and in NM and CO) so amazingly similar?  Was young Garrard
>familiar with Ruxton's work and trying to imitate it?  (They both spelled
>"Wagh!" the same way.)  Or did they both faithfully record the speech and
>mannerisms of mountainmen as they actually observed it?  I don't suppose
>we'll ever know.
>
>john
>
>In a message dated 3/20/00 12:39:02 PM SA Pacific Standard Time,
>[e-mail] writes:
>
><< Great stuff, yes, but the language he had them using is widely believed
to
> be only his attempt to capture the southern accents many of the mountain
men
> had - and judging from the other journals of the time, a poor attempt at
> that. >>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Bill Jackson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: David Jackson
Date: 20 Mar 2000 23:55:03 GMT

Ho the list.
Would like some info on a David Jackson who traveled to some rondyvoo's.
Would like to know if he was a Mountain Man or Supplier.
Thanks
MadJack Jackson
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton/vernacular
Date: 20 Mar 2000 17:11:43 -0800

Since I've just taken the magazine to the print shop, my head is about
empty. But, if you look in the early journals that report what people
recorded of conversations, you just don't find them recording the kind of
speech Ruxton did. Oh, yes, now I remember. Jim Hardee had a fine article on
it in the Trapline and it was copied in a recent issue of the Tomahawk and
Long Rifle. A fine job and one that should convince some people.
-----Original Message-----


>
>In a message dated 3/20/00 9:39:02 AM, [e-mail] writes:
>
><< Great stuff, yes, but the language he had them using is widely believed
to
>
>be only his attempt to capture the southern accents many of the mountain
men
>
>had - and judging from the other journals of the time, a poor attempt at
>
>that.
>
>- >>
>
>Interesting you should say that.... I was under the impression that Ruxton
>was one of the few that tried to use the mountain man language (he WAS
there)
>in his first person accounts...to Blackwood's Edinburgh Magazine, in 1848.
>What other journals used the vernacular that were written prior to that
date?
>I'd sure like to read them...
>
>Ymos,
>Steve
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton
Date: 20 Mar 2000 17:13:42 -0800

I just sent a message about it, and at the risk of being repetitious I'll go
again. Check the Trapline and the last two issues of the T&LR. There is a
fine, well documented article there somewhere that supports my position that
Ruxton heard something no one else did.
-----Original Message-----


What are the sources you use to reference the southern link to the mountain
man's parlance, just currious.  I have wondered much about the southern
influence on mountain man society in all its quarters.  Your mention of
linguistic ties is the first I have hear, and I want to read more about
this.

Matt Despain

Bill Cunningham wrote:

> Great stuff, yes, but the language he had them using is widely believed to
> be only his attempt to capture the southern accents many of the mountain
men
> had - and judging from the other journals of the time, a poor attempt at
> that.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Monday, March 20, 2000 12:15 AM
> Subject: MtMan-List: Ruxton
>
> >Ho the List,
> >
> >I have just about finished reading "Life in the Far West" by G. F. Ruxton
> and
> >would like some views on the book. I found it to be outstanding if for
only
> >his writing in  the "mountain man" vernacular and the 24 B/W Miller
prints!
> >Had to read some pages several times just to figure out what was
> said...great
> >stuff!
> >
> >Ymos,
> >Steve
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html




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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton/vernacular
Date: 20 Mar 2000 17:21:36 -0800

I believe that's Richard C. Poulsen. In it he postulates that the mountain
men did not talk as Ruxton has them speaking. It is a scholarly work for
which he prepared by studying stylistic as well as linguistic evidence of
speech patterns in the historical oral narrative of the fur trade journals
and diaries.  He compared the results with Ruxton's mountain men and known
characteristics of oral narrative style to determine Ruxton's faithfulness
to accuracy. He pointed out that no one should assume any single mountain
man possessed all of the speech patterns, vocabulary, metaphors and so on
used by Ruxton.
The article I mentioned, which among others uses Poulsen's book as
reference, is in the November 1999 issue of the Tomahawk and Long Rifle and
in The Trapline Volume 2 issue 3 Summer 1999.
Bill
-----Original Message-----


>Here is a book some of us have talked about in the past. It may shed some
>lite on the subject of mountain man speech. I have never read it, but to
>those who care to:
>
>The Mountain Man Vernacular: It's Historical roots, It's linguistic Nature,
>and it's
>Literary Uses   (Amer. Univ. Studies 4 English and Literature , Vol. 22)
>By: Richard C Paulsen    1985
>
>Available from Amazon
>
>northwoods
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trousers or leggings
Date: 20 Mar 2000 16:23:25 -0800

Steve,

Don't you mean "Brain Tan Trousers or Knee Britches" under leggings? I
remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 20 Mar 2000 18:38:18 -0600


-----Original Message-----


>>any professional or semi-professional trappers that I have met have always
>brought a good dog along when checking their trap lines.  A dog is a
valuable
>asset for recovering traps that have been dragged off into the bushes
>somewhere.

I have done a "little" trapping in my time. Both wet and dryland. I could
say the exact opposite of your statement is true. The worst thing you could
do is take a dog along for a lot of reasons which are obvious if you have a
knowledge of trapping succesfully.

>As for assigning some arbitrary cutoff date for the "Rocky Mountain Fur
Trade
>Era" it is unhistorical and unnecessary.

I don't assign any arbitrary cutoff date to the rocky mountain fur trade
era. As far as I know though, the disscussions on this list are centered on
the time period 1800-1850. If my memory serves me correctly the rocky
mountain fur trade became feasible in the late teens, was going good through
the late thirties, and began to wind down towards the end of the forties.

 >There are many, many more references, but I don't have time to catalogue
them
>all.

I don't think dogs were as common as you make it sound. They are known as
mans best friend for a good reason, but there are a lot of instances when it
would be a disadvantage to have one around.

 >I have to give my "Fur Trade" lecture to my freshman history class, and
>I want to brag about the lion I caught yesterday.

I have never hunted lions with hounds. People tell me it's real easy. The
biggest cat I ever got (trapping) was 52#. That would be a bobcat and as
long as we are bragging I would add that it was the largest ever caught in
the state of WI, to my knowledge anyway. I'll never forget the day I
approached my set and found him in it.

northwoods




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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 20 Mar 2000 18:45:23 -0600


-----Original Message-----


>Buck,
>
>I am inclined to agree with your idea that dogs were very common in the
>trapping expeditions and they are only mentioned when something unusual
>involving them occurs.

I must have missed something. Did Buck say that dogs were very common in the
trapping expeditions? If he did I might give the idea some weight.

northwoods


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: David Jackson
Date: 20 Mar 2000 19:03:44 -0700

Mad Jack,

I refer you to "David E. Jackson, Field Captain of the Rocky Mountain Fur
Trade." by Vivian L. Talbot. ISBN: 1-886402-01-9
This is one of the few and best works on Davy Jackson.


"Teton" Todd D. Glover
Poison River Party Pilgrim

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 20 Mar 2000 19:14:06 -0800

Just to confirm what somebody wrote earlier, dogs were an important part
of the fur trade in the Canadian Rockies. Alexander Mackenzie and his
voyageurs crossed the Rockies with Mackenzie's dog in tow; this
supposedly inspired Meriwether Lewis later on. In the winter of
1810-1811, David Thompson took dogsled teams over Athabasca Pass, and his
NWCo. partner, Alexander Henry the Younger, took a dogsled team to Howse
Pass. In fact, dogsleds were the main use for dogs in the Canadian fur
trade. References to hunting dogs are slim to none. Dogs were emergency
rations, as well as sometimes being eaten just for the flavour.

Dog bones have been found in at least one Canadian fur post archeological
site in the Rocky Mountains. It was a large dog, probably a Newfoundland
dog, which were widely used in the Canadian fur trade. There are also
several references to feeding dogs in fur post journals. Period artwork
from the Canadian fur trade shows a wide variety of dogs, many of them
surprisingly small. Sorry, I don't know dog breeds, but if someone's
interested, I can tell you what pictures to check out & where to find
them.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 20 Mar 2000 22:17:50 EST

In a message dated 3/20/00 6:05:48 PM SA Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<<  And also if I were to be trying to sneak
 through some country un-noticed I wouldn't want old Fido along either. It's
 awful hard to communicate to a dog why it's important to not bark, or chase
 a deer, or defecate in a certain spot (for trapping thats a no-no) it's just
 one other factor that is not controllable in a lot of respects. >>

Dogs can be trained not to bark, and none of my dogs chase deer (or anything
else but lions, bobcats and bear).  A good dog can be taken along on the
trapline, and of course they ARE every single day by true woodsmen all over
North America.  As I've said before, I can think of several government and
private professional trappers, and every one of them has a dog for use on the
trapline.

Common trapping lore has it that wolves are the very hardest animals to trap.
 But in the 1920s the US Biological Survey was spearheading the wolf
eradication program throughout the west.  According the USDA Bio. Survey
Annual Report, New Mexico, 1920, each of the government wolf trappers
employed were also lion hunters (houndsmen).  Yet they were successful in
trapping the very last of the wiliest wolves in the Southwest.  If a trapper
thinks that his dog is going to wreck his sets, then a good dog can be left
in camp.

The point is no decent hunter/trapper ever takes "old Fido" along.  Instead
they take along a 100% trash broke, sensible, tough, and totally courageous
hunting dog that could be depended on to do what it was told, or it was
immediately culled.  People that deal with common yard dogs have no concept
of what a well-bred, well-trained working dog is capable of.

jrs

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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: DOGS ?
Date: 20 Mar 2000 21:33:08 -0800

Ya'll reckin Ruxton ever fed his Dog out of a Dutch Oven ?  <GG>
Pendleton


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver hats
Date: 20 Mar 2000 22:24:52 EST

I was on the Internet tonight looking up Beaver Oil in a keyword search.  I
don't recommend you do that with small children in the room.

However, I found a Canadian Fur Trade website for Children and I even learned
a thing or two myself, although I've been full grown awhile now.

I didn't know that beaver hats came into fashion in Europe as early as 1625.
Or that people in the 1600s thought beaver hats held supernational powers.
It was believed that if you rubbed beaver oil onto your hair it would help
your memory.  For those suffering hearing loss, it was rumored a beaver hat
improved hearing.

A beaver's fur has two kinds of hair; a short, thick, soft woolly layer and a
longer coarse layer.  The coarser, long hairs were removed leaving only the
shorter woolly layer.  The shorter hairs have little barbs on the end that
you can only see under a microscope.  When pressed hard, the barbs interlock
with each other, making a solid fabric.  This is felting.  (I always thought
they shaved the pelt to make the hat.)  Once felted the pelt was no longer
furry and was ready to be made into a hat.

I had never heard this.  Furs that had been worn by Indians (called First
Nations people on this web site) were called "coat beaver."  After wearing a
year or more, the longer, coarser hairs had been worn off and these furs
brought in a high price in the fur trade.

The site also has sections on Forts, Rivers, Women of the fur trade, Links,
Extensions, Arts and Crafts, and Links.  I even found myself a song to sing
at my next Rendezvous -- downloaded the sheet music and the audio file --
"Ah! Si Mon Moine Voulait Danser."  Ain't that pretty.  After a few camp
kettles of rum, even them that don't speak French will understand every word.
 Of course, you might prefer, "Cumbaya Seigneur."

Yep, that's Kumbaya, My Lord to you and me.  Who ever knew it was time-period
appropriate.  Maybe it's only appropriate if sung in French after copious
amounts of rum or red liqour.

www.lafete.org/Ft.e/Ae_INDX.htm

Au revoir, mes amis.
Dick Summers

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 20 Mar 2000 22:22:35 EST

In a message dated 3/20/00 7:34:42 PM SA Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<<
 I have never hunted lions with hounds. People tell me it's real easy. The
 biggest cat I ever got (trapping) was 52#. That would be a bobcat and as
 long as we are bragging I would add that it was the largest ever caught in
 the state of WI, to my knowledge anyway. I'll never forget the day I
 approached my set and found him in it.
  >>


C'mon out easterner, and I'll show you some "real easy."

jrs

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From: tom roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Linen
Date: 20 Mar 2000 22:54:59 -0500

Linda,

You seem to be quite knowledgable about clothing.  Do you
know what weight and weave of linen garment fabric
would have been available to the 1820 fur trade in St. Louis?

Thanks!

Tom


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From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 20 Mar 2000 23:08:29 -0500 (EST)

Jim Bridger by J. Cecil Alter, p.176 quoting Robert Newell's Memoranda
of Travel in Missouri (specifically among the Crows), pp. 34-36:

December 13, 1837 - near Fort Van Buren [mouth of Tongue River], the
Crow trading post:   " ... Men took dogs and brought our baggage.  Dogs
are used here in winter to pack and haul."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Michigan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: DOGS ?
Date: 20 Mar 2000 21:26:52 -0700

Hello Larry Pendleton,

You might take a look at the inventory available to the ones who rendezvous
from 1825-1837.  You could buy.  Umbrellas, India rubber canteens, iron
bound canteens.  Shoes, both mens and womens.  Flour was available in large
amounts.  Hardly Spartan conditions.  The small bunch of a 100 or so were
only a limited part of the beaver men in the area of the northern Rocky
Mountains.  And they don't call them pot lickers for nothing.  I proved cast
iron ovens were available from Fort Union Trading Post 1828-1850, including
the flat bottomed Dutch Oven.  Where do you hail from?  What is your outfit
composed of?  Which element of the mountain man holds your interest?
Walt
Park City, Montana







----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2000 10:33 PM


> Ya'll reckin Ruxton ever fed his Dog out of a Dutch Oven ?  <GG>
> Pendleton
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 20 Mar 2000 21:35:40 -0700

Hello JRS,
VBG.  My kid brother took up cat hunting with dogs in the 70s here in
Montana.  That fat boy got in pretty good shape behind his dogs.  I have
seen 3 big cats in the day light only 3 times in 50 years of hunting in
Montana.  2 were south of the Big Hole towards Horse Prairie.  The third was
in the Little Belt Mountains near Kings Hill. in the early 80s.  Bobcats are
a different story.  I hunted them with a bow and arrow in the 50s and was
successful as long as I hunted alone.
Walt
Park City, Montana



----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2000 8:22 PM


> In a message dated 3/20/00 7:34:42 PM SA Pacific Standard Time,
> [e-mail] writes:
>
> <<
>  I have never hunted lions with hounds. People tell me it's real easy. The
>  biggest cat I ever got (trapping) was 52#. That would be a bobcat and as
>  long as we are bragging I would add that it was the largest ever caught
in
>  the state of WI, to my knowledge anyway. I'll never forget the day I
>  approached my set and found him in it.
>   >>
>
>
> C'mon out easterner, and I'll show you some "real easy."
>
> jrs
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 20 Mar 2000 21:39:36 -0700

Good Post John,
One of the really neat things about dogs is you can use them to help bring
in winter fire wood.  No small task.  Especially here in south central
Montana.
Walt
Park City, Montana




----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2000 9:08 PM


> Jim Bridger by J. Cecil Alter, p.176 quoting Robert Newell's Memoranda
> of Travel in Missouri (specifically among the Crows), pp. 34-36:
>
> December 13, 1837 - near Fort Van Buren [mouth of Tongue River], the
> Crow trading post:   " ... Men took dogs and brought our baggage.  Dogs
> are used here in winter to pack and haul."
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> from Michigan
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: DOGS ?
Date: 20 Mar 2000 23:43:09 EST


In a message dated 3/20/00 7:28:02 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Ya'll reckin Ruxton ever fed his Dog out of a Dutch Oven ?  <GG>

Pendleton

 >>

Haaaaa..... don't get em strated Pendleton!!!!!??!


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 20 Mar 2000 23:45:56 EST

Excuse my bragging and blowing.  Back to the documents:

Zenas Leonard's narrative (ADVENTURES OF A MOUNTAIN MAN, Lincoln, 1978) pg.
192
"To-day Capt. Walker returned from the settlements well supplied with such
articles as he was in need of-- bringing with him 100 horses, 47 cow cattle,
and 30 or 35 dogs, together with some flour, corn, beans, &c., suitable for
our subsistance in the long journey, for which every man was now busily
engaged in making preparations."

pg. 209 "Our horses, cattle and dogs were almost exhausted this morning.
[They were crossing the Great Basin] The pitiful lamentations of our dogs
were sufficient to melt the hardest heart. The dumb brutes suffered more for
want of water than food, and these dogs, when death threatened to seize them,
would approach the men, look them right in the face with the countenances of
a distracted person, and if no help could be afforded, would commence a
piteous and lamentable howl, drop down and expire."

pg. 211 "We now had the greatest trouble to keep our beasts from killing
themselves drinking water-- in which we succeeded only in part, and were thus
occupied until daylight, when we counted our force for the purpose of
ascertaining how much loss we sustained by undertaking to cross the desert,
and found that we had lost 64 horses, 10 cows and 15 dogs."

Now these were not trained hunting dogs brought along on a trapping
expedition, rather, they were probably just common pot-lickers picked up in
the California settlements.  But why did they purchase them?  They were
apparently a valued commodity in the Rocky Mountain region in the mid-1830s.

jrs

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trousers or leggings
Date: 21 Mar 2000 00:03:11 EST


In a message dated 3/20/00 4:18:11 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<

Don't you mean "Brain Tan Trousers or Knee Britches" under leggings? I

remain.....

 >>

No...... I'm wondering which one, brain tan trousers or brain tan leggings,
were the most common. I'm trying to decide whether to go the legging route
with wool breeches, or just get a pair of brain tan trousers. As you
mentioned off line, knee britches, long wool stockings, with brain tan
leggings over all, would seem to be the best way to go. Ya don't havta git
nakid to dry out!   (preddy gud vernakular...huh?) lol
Ymos,
Steve

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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: DOGS ?
Date: 20 Mar 2000 22:08:15 -0700

One more thing Larry,

You can call Randy Kane Chief Ranger/Historian Fort Union Trading Post
Nation Historic Site at his office 701-572-9083 or FAXZ 701-572-7321 or
write to the National Park Service RR 3, Box 71 Williston, North Dakota
58801.  The history is there.

Walt
Park City, Montana




----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2000 10:33 PM


> Ya'll reckin Ruxton ever fed his Dog out of a Dutch Oven ?  <GG>
> Pendleton
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 21 Mar 2000 00:10:58 EST

Hey Walt,

I lived a few years in Riverton, WY, there in the Wind River Basin.  I hunted
lions in the Owl Creek Mtns., the Big Horns and the Absarokas.  Just for fun
I hunted coon in the Bighorn Basin and around Sheridan.  Before living in WY
I hunted lions in AZ and later in NM.  Now I hunt in CO, and next week I'm
headed over to southern Utah to hunt with some real cowmen/lion hunters.

I don't claim to be an expert on any kind of hunting, trapping or history,
but I sure have a lot of interest in the afore mentioned.  I have no doubt
that an exceptionally good dog would be a real asset on a 1803-1850 trapping
expedition, and the documnets prove that they were present, at least
occaisionally--possibly regularly.

I thought that you might get a kick out of the W.T. Hamilton reference.  It
is a little-referenced source, but real interesting.  Favour used the heck
out it for his OLD BILL WILLIAMS book (UNC Press, 1936).  So that's why I
posted a query about Hamilton a while back, wondering if he was a dependable
source or just another old-timer spinning "big windies."

As far as dogs and trapping are concerned, I am willing to accept the opinion
of probably the greatest trapper/woodsman currently breathing, 80 some-odd
year old Jake Korell of Riverton, WY.  Jake has a keen interest in the
old-time trappers of "the period" and has been a full-time professional
trapper and trader since he was a kid.  He also was a first-class houndsman
at one time.  I don't suppose there's anyone alive that knows more about
hunting and trapping the critters of the Rocky Mtns., combined with knowledge
of local Indian culture and customs, skill and experience with hunting dogs
and other livestock, and knowledge of the Rocky Mtn. geography.  Now there's
a man whose opinion counts for something, in my book.

If there is a man that embodies the skills, talents, knowledge and attitudes
of the old-time mountain men, then it is definitely Jack Korell, not some
part-time wannabe like myself.  So I'll eventually ask Jake what he thinks of
the dogs on the old-timers' trapping expeditions, and his opinion, combined
with what we can glean from the primary sources, will determine my final
position on the matter.

John

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From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 20 Mar 2000 21:16:55 -0800 (PST)

On Dogs

I confine my reading to the events of the Pacific Northwest
(mostly).  There are many references...

Some list the eating of dogs... (Lewis and Clark, Thompson, Alexander
Henry..)
Some list the using of dogs as sled animals (David Thompson)
Some list the use of dogs as beasts of burdens (Flathead, Kutenai)
But...

The only reference I've found (pre 1840), that lists dogs as anything
other than the above, is Merriweather Lewis's Newfoundland.  It could be
that the use of dogs as hunters simply was not noted in the journals
because it was so common?  A possibility, but not likely.

David Thompson does mourn the loss of 2-3 dogs when they ate themselves to
death on Salmon (around 1809 or so), but does not say why he thought the
loss was noteworthy... i.e., a lost meal, a lost sled dog, a lost hunting
dog, etc.

I have just begun to scratch the surface of all the possible readings, but
that is my findings in the Pacific Northwest from the 1790's through 1840
or so.... there are many more books to check...

Your Most Obedient Servant...

Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho
Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders
http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill


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From: "Matt  P" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 20 Mar 2000 23:40:37 -0600


-----Original Message-----
>Which dog magazine? I would like to look at this article. My wife and I get
>most of the "dog magazines"  at our vet clinic, but I hardly ever get a
>chance to look at any. If I have the magazine, don't bother buying it I can
>send it to ya if you would like.
>
>northwoods

I don't remember exactly which one I saw it in (Dog Fancy, Dog&Kennel, ?),
but I will pick one up Wednesday (tomorrow), and will be able to tell you
about it then.
Matt in Texas
<[e-mail]>
                Moonwolf's Den
http://pages.ivillage.com/misc/txmoonwolf/


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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 20 Mar 2000 22:44:11 -0700

"I'll eventually ask Jake what he thinks of  the dogs on the old-timers'
trapping expeditions, and his opinion, combined
 with what we can glean from the primary sources, will determine my final
position on the matter. John"

Ah Ho John,
The old boy is one generation ahead of me and it sounds like he has had a
wonderful life in the country he loved to live in.  35 years ago I had the
pleasure of meeting Bruce Neal out of Sun River Canyon.  He also was a breed
apart.  Bruce was the man who trapped what is now called the Bob Marshall
Wilderness.  A plumb practical man.
Walt
Park City, Montana


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 21 Mar 2000 02:03:18 -0500



On Mon, 20 Mar 2000 22:17:50 EST [e-mail] writes:
> The point is no decent hunter/trapper ever takes "old Fido" along.
> Instead
> they take along a 100% trash broke, sensible, tough, and totally
> courageous
> hunting dog that could be depended on to do what it was told, or it
> was
> immediately culled.  People that deal with common yard dogs have no
> concept
> of what a well-bred, well-trained working dog is capable of.
>
> jrs

Darn well put JRS----

the dog you are speaking of does exist but not much in our todays
society---takes a lot of time and trouble to train a dog and have him do
exactly what you want---you almost have to have him with you 24 hrs a day
for the first 3 or 4 years of his life---and when i say with you i mean
just that---

my brother has a springer spannel that he has had since a pup---dog goes
everwhere with him including the office---float trips on the river and
when he goes uptown to a restrant my brother tells his dog to sit by the
door of the cafe or to stay in the bed of the truck----that is just what
he does-----and at the door you can pet the dog in the truck dont get
near it you get a lot of teeth and are not made very welcome---brother
doesnt roll up the windows and tells his dog to watch the truck---even
leaves his keys in it---"one thing for sure if you are not family you
wont be getting in that truck and live---

the point being made is yes a well trained dog will work but one that is
less than 100% isnt---especially on a trapline---I had a couple and only
one was ever allowed to go with me---would never get in a trap or go near
a set---when i needed to reset i would tell it to sit off away from the
trap then set it and bait it and go on ---and unless i would sick it on
something it would not rush up to something caught in the trap---dog was
a lot of help with ki-dogs on a drag---would get me close enough to know
wher the trap and ki-dog was then i would go on from ther without the
dog---set my pack basket down and tell the dog to guard the baskey---and
i would fo my thing---

YMHOSANT
        =+=
    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 21 Mar 2000 01:40:43 -0500

northwoods---
got a few of them cat critters in my traps when i was a kid but never one
as big as yours---and if i had a dog with me i sure wouldnt want to try
to seperate them---and I bet when you saw that cat in your trap you sure
didnt say    "Nice Kitty"  especially if you didnt have a 22 rifle with
you ---we cought a lot of ki-dogs and they would try to eat you up if you
had one in a trap---not friendly at all---especially if you had your trap
on a drag and not tied down solid---lots of fun---


YMHOSANT
      =+=
    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
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Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: DOGS ?
Date: 21 Mar 2000 07:21:52 -0600

I think he may have, just probably never wrote about it because it was such
an obvious everyday occurrence.

northwoods


-----Original Message-----


>Ya'll reckin Ruxton ever fed his Dog out of a Dutch Oven ?  <GG>
>Pendleton
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linen
Date: 21 Mar 2000 06:39:15 -0500

There you have me....my expertise lies in certain areas of Native American
clothing.

Linda Holley

tom roberts wrote:

> Linda,
>
> You seem to be quite knowledgable about clothing.  Do you
> know what weight and weave of linen garment fabric
> would have been available to the 1820 fur trade in St. Louis?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Tom
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver hats
Date: 21 Mar 2000 07:44:09 -0600


-----Original Message-----
> When pressed hard, the barbs interlock
>with each other, making a solid fabric.  This is felting.  (I always
thought
>they shaved the pelt to make the hat.)  Once felted the pelt was no longer
>furry and was ready to be made into a hat.


I think the hair is shaved off of the pelt in making a felt hat.

>I had never heard this.  Furs that had been worn by Indians (called First
>Nations people on this web site) were called "coat beaver."  After wearing
a
>year or more, the longer, coarser hairs had been worn off and these furs
>brought in a high price in the fur trade.

The hatter began the process of making felt hats by first using his thumb
agains a dull blade of a knife to pull all of the long guard hairs. Any furs
that this process had already been through would have been worth more money.
After the guard hairs were pulled the soft short fur was shaved off with a
crescent shaped knife like a leatherworker uses. Then an amount of fur was
weighed out which was enough to make a hat. In order to get the barbs of the
hair to interloc, each pile was place on a table that was enclosed on three
sides. Then he took a tool that looked like a bow, and he would repeatedley
"twang" the string onto the pile and through it and the vibration would
cause the hairs to lay parrallel to eachother and the barbs to interloc.
Then the pile was shaped and flattened into a batt. An important part of the
process was to boil the batts and beat them with a club which caused the
fiber to shrink and become compacted, then they went to the man who blocked
and shaped the hats, and dyed them.

northwoods





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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 21 Mar 2000 08:03:14 -0600


-----Original Message-----

>I don't claim to be an expert on any kind of hunting, trapping or history,
>but I sure have a lot of interest in the afore mentioned.  I have no doubt
>that an exceptionally good dog would be a real asset on a 1803-1850
trapping
>expedition, and the documnets prove that they were present, at least
>occaisionally--possibly regularly.


For what its worth I agree with you on the above statement. Its a big jump
to say  that they were very common in the trapping expeditions.

northwoods


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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 21 Mar 2000 08:06:09 -0600


-----Original Message-----



>I don't remember exactly which one I saw it in (Dog Fancy, Dog&Kennel, ?),
>but I will pick one up Wednesday (tomorrow), and will be able to tell you
>about it then.
>Matt in Texas


Matt, could you post some of the info, from the article if and when you
recieve it, as Buck suggested?

northwoods




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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 21 Mar 2000 08:11:07 -0600


-----Original Message-----


>northwoods---
>got a few of them cat critters in my traps when i was a kid but never one
>as big as yours---and if i had a dog with me i sure wouldnt want to try
>to seperate them---

Your absolutely rite Hawk. If I would have brought the dog I had at the time
(which there has never lived a dog that was a better companion) I would have
had a hard time telling him to "sit-stay". That cat could have reaked havoc,
and I am sure he knew what a dog was as this country is full of hound
hunters that chase the bear,coyote,cats incessantly.

>and I bet when you saw that cat in your trap you sure
>didnt say    "Nice Kitty"  especially if you didnt have a 22 rifle with

22. pistol was the coupdegrace, I have some great photos of that cat in the
trap.

northwoods


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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 21 Mar 2000 08:18:07 -0600


-----Original Message-----


Aahh, the merits of a well trained dog.... how nice a thing it is to at
least have the priveledge of owning at least one in a persons lifetime.

northwoods
>
>the dog you are speaking of does exist but not much in our todays
>society---takes a lot of time and trouble to train a dog and have him do
>exactly what you want---you almost have to have him with you 24 hrs a day
>for the first 3 or 4 years of his life---and when i say with you i mean
>just that---
>
>my brother has a springer spannel that he has had since a pup---dog goes
>everwhere with him including the office---float trips on the river and
>when he goes uptown to a restrant my brother tells his dog to sit by the
>door of the cafe or to stay in the bed of the truck----that is just what
>he does-----and at the door you can pet the dog in the truck dont get
>near it you get a lot of teeth and are not made very welcome---brother
>doesnt roll up the windows and tells his dog to watch the truck---even
>leaves his keys in it---"one thing for sure if you are not family you
>wont be getting in that truck and live---
>
>the point being made is yes a well trained dog will work but one that is
>less than 100% isnt---especially on a trapline---I had a couple and only
>one was ever allowed to go with me---would never get in a trap or go near
>a set---when i needed to reset i would tell it to sit off away from the
>trap then set it and bait it and go on ---and unless i would sick it on
>something it would not rush up to something caught in the trap---dog was
>a lot of help with ki-dogs on a drag---would get me close enough to know
>wher the trap and ki-dog was then i would go on from ther without the
>dog---set my pack basket down and tell the dog to guard the baskey---and
>i would fo my thing---
>
>YMHOSANT
>        =+=
>    "HAWK"
>Michael Pierce
>854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
>Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
>e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
>site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
>
>________________________________________________________________
>YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
>Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
>Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
>----------------------
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>


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From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Scoria Rock
Date: 21 Mar 2000 08:24:29 -0600

There are old catlanite digs in Wisconsin too.

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From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 21 Mar 2000 08:47:51 -0600

Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]> wrote:

> . . . Period artwork from the Canadian fur trade shows a wide variety of
dogs, many of them
> surprisingly small.  . .

Please don't tell me the small dogs were the sissified yipping house dogs I
see at many rendezvous.

Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner


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From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: trousers or leggings
Date: 21 Mar 2000 09:06:35 -0500

By leggings, I assume you mean the ones that come over the thigh and attach
to a thong or belt at the waist.  I would recommend trousers.  Leggings are
nice and comfortable, especially in warm weather (I have a brain tanned
pair, myself) and historically correct for the fur trade era, but trousers
give you much more versatility (they are also historically correct).  They
allow you to do a broader range of impressions where leggings may restrict
you to a narrower range.  If you want to do something beyond the fur trade
era, the trousers will allow that flexibility.  Many of us "do" other
impressions in addition ot the fur trade.  For some of my impressions my
buckskin trousers fit in much better than my leggings ever would.  If you
have to make a choice, go with the trousers.  If not, then do both.  As to
which were most common, that's difficult to answer.  All I can suggest is
that they were both quite common.  Either choice would be historically
valid, since there is enough evidence to support the wide use of both
types.

Cheers,
HBC

>I'm trying to decide whether to go the legging route
>with wool breeches, or just get a pair of brain tan trousers. As you
>mentioned off line, knee britches, long wool stockings, with brain tan
>leggings over all, would seem to be the best way to go. Ya don't havta git
>nakid to dry out!   (preddy gud vernakular...huh?) lol
>Ymos,
>Steve



**********************************
Henry B. Crawford
Curator of History
Museum of Texas Tech University
Box 43191
Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
[e-mail]
806/742-2442  FAX [phone]
Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
***  Living History . . . Because It's There  ***



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton/vernacular/What about Osborne Russell?
Date: 21 Mar 2000 08:23:46 -0700



What about the place in Russell's journal where he quotes Major Joe Meek giving
his account of an encounter with the Blackfeet?  Ya gotta admit,  Russell  was
there.  I also recall in the dim recesses of my memories about the early oregon
trail folks commenting on the peculiar speech of the mountaineers.  Then there's
the St Louis newspaper account of Black Harris and his "putrified" forest.  I
think lots of those old boys had some fun putting-on the pilgrims alright and
you all can take it or leave it...but I will prefer a man with a few extra
syllables in his words everytime over them carnsarned book-thumpers!  Like Mark
Twain says, "It's a poor mind that can think of only one way to spell a word."



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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver hats
Date: 21 Mar 2000 12:13:55 -0800

Dick,

I tried to open the url you sent and something ain't right. Won't open. I
remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
> www.lafete.org/Ft.e/Ae_INDX.htm




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From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver hats
Date: 21 Mar 2000 14:12:53 -0600

I had the same trouble:

Try:

http://www.lafete.org/Ft_e/Ae_INDX.htm

or

http://www.lafete.org/

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: www.lafete.org
Date: 21 Mar 2000 14:08:30 -0700

Ho the list,

Great site, but I'd be careful when thinking that all these songs are fur
trade period.

I have a problem envisioning Colter, Glass et al singing and dancing to "Le
Boogie Woogie".

Could be a lot of fun, especially after a few pots of Taos Lightnin.
Probably need to keep someone sober, just in case the others decide that the
"in" is the fire pit. Some of my hunting party have come close to being
victims of the "Wild Elk Dance", a similar kind of exuberant nonsense.

Lou Sickler
Colorado Territory

> -----Original Message-----
> From:    Jim Lindberg [SMTP:[e-mail]]
> Sent:    Tuesday, March 21, 2000 1:13 PM
> To:    [e-mail]
> Subject:    Re: MtMan-List: Beaver hats
>
> I had the same trouble:
>
> Try:
>
> http://www.lafete.org/Ft_e/Ae_INDX.htm
>
> or
>
> http://www.lafete.org/
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: www.lafete.org
Date: 21 Mar 2000 15:22:06 -0700

One of the musicians, a professor from the Montana State University system
at Billings, Montana gave a music presentation of the period.  He said a few
tunes were popular and played regularly.  Different songs were sung to
various tunes.  This country was pretty harsh on drinkers at the time.
Being hungover and alert to danger do not go hand in hand.
Walt
Park City, Montana



----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 2:08 PM


> Ho the list,
>
> Great site, but I'd be careful when thinking that all these songs are fur
> trade period.
>
> I have a problem envisioning Colter, Glass et al singing and dancing to
"Le
> Boogie Woogie".
>
> Could be a lot of fun, especially after a few pots of Taos Lightnin.
> Probably need to keep someone sober, just in case the others decide that
the
> "in" is the fire pit. Some of my hunting party have come close to being
> victims of the "Wild Elk Dance", a similar kind of exuberant nonsense.
>
> Lou Sickler
> Colorado Territory
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jim Lindberg [SMTP:[e-mail]]
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 1:13 PM
> > To: [e-mail]
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver hats
> >
> > I had the same trouble:
> >
> > Try:
> >
> > http://www.lafete.org/Ft_e/Ae_INDX.htm
> >
> > or
> >
> > http://www.lafete.org/
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Scoria Rock
Date: 21 Mar 2000 16:55:10 -0600

Washtahay-
At 08:24 AM 3/21/00 -0600, you wrote:
>There are old catlanite digs in Wisconsin too.
>
    Its been a while since I worked it, but from what I recall the Wisconsin
stone was darker-almost a maroon, and harder/more brittle vs. stone from
the Pipestone quarries.
    Having said that, got any of the Wisconsin stone to trade?   I just
acquired an old pipe that appears to be from that stone and would like to
make a smoking copy.  For that matter, I am always willing to trade for
Catlinite, soapstone, steatite, etc-about anything I can carve a pipe from.
LongWalker c. du B.


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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Scoria Rock
Date: 21 Mar 2000 18:13:40 -0600


-----Original Message-----


>There are old catlanite digs in Wisconsin too.


Where? I take a particular interest in this sort of thing.

northwoods



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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 21 Mar 2000 19:33:19 -0600


-----Original Message-----


> Bobcats are a different story.  I hunted them with a bow and arrow in the
50s and was
>successful as long as I hunted alone.


You sure make it sound easy  Walt. How many people do you think could
succesfully hunt bobcat with a stickbow? I could have shot one once with my
recurve, but I chose not to. We have cougar where I live. The neighbor lady
a mile down the road had a female with two young ones under her bird feeder.
My dad saw one only a few hundred yards from my doorstep last year. I have
had numerous locals tell me of sightings. The Department of Natural
Resources here in WI denies that there are any in the state but that isn't
the case.
I am intimately familiar with hound hunting. Compared to other methods it is
easy as far as I am concerened. Exspecially with modern technology like
radio tracking equipment.
Tell me about some of these bobcats you shot with the bow. I would like to
hear the details and circumstances.

northwoods


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From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: [Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?]
Date: 21 Mar 2000 21:07:07 EST

[e-mail] (Bill Cunningham) wrote:
Check out the mountain man camp journals the years they wintered in Cache=

(Willow) Valley. When Black Harris and Fitzpatrick headed out to St. Loui=
s
in February, they had a dog with them (they later killed it in a very
grizzly fashion and ate it).
Hey Bill,
There's been a mess of dog replies, have we gone that direction !!!

You talking about Black Harris and Fitzpatrick eating dog, ask Buck about=
 the
time him and Butcher York where at the "Holy Smokes" in Browning MT., and=

asked to stay for the evening events with about 1200 native americans. =

Seems some ladies bring out several dogs and the old chief pokes them a
little, make his selection. After a time Butcher says they hear a dog rai=
sing
hell outside the building, then it get still, a few hours later he's serv=
ed as
the main meat in a stew. According to Butcher, Buck damn near got as gree=
n as
the stew when eating his meal.

I've asked him about it and he still looks a little green years later whe=
n he
thinks about it.

Later
Concho.

____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm=
ail.netscape.com.

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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs & mountain lions
Date: 21 Mar 2000 20:14:34 -0600

Don't let so called experts tell you there are no big cats pratically =
anywhere, particularly a state like Wisconsin.  There are more cats , =
including mountain lions, in unlikely places than many people realize.  =
For instance....about 3 years ago a friend of mine shot a 130 lb =
mountain lion from his deer stand in Bosque (bos-key) County, Texas, =
which is the county across the Brazos River from my county, which =
borders Tarrant County...Ft Worth.  A mountain lion was spotted =
repeatedly in Tarrant County this fall.  In fact, it ate a couple of =
dogs and had people afraid to let their kids play in the yard.  This cat =
was widely presumed to be an escaped or freed pet and was never =
captured.  About 5 years ago (before I moved here) another lion was =
captured on the very street where I live only about four blocks from my =
house and  was also presumed to be somebody's pet.  The neighbors said =
they couldn't kick their dogs outside.  The whined and groveled every =
night. =20
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff

----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 7:33 PM


>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Walt Foster <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: March 20, 2000 10:36 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
>=20
>=20
> > Bobcats are a different story.  I hunted them with a bow and arrow =
in the
> 50s and was
> >successful as long as I hunted alone.
>=20
>=20
> You sure make it sound easy  Walt. How many people do you think could
> succesfully hunt bobcat with a stickbow? I could have shot one once =
with my
> recurve, but I chose not to. We have cougar where I live. The neighbor =
lady
> a mile down the road had a female with two young ones under her bird =
feeder.
> My dad saw one only a few hundred yards from my doorstep last year. I =
have
> had numerous locals tell me of sightings. The Department of Natural
> Resources here in WI denies that there are any in the state but that =
isn't
> the case.
> I am intimately familiar with hound hunting. Compared to other methods =
it is
> easy as far as I am concerened. Exspecially with modern technology =
like
> radio tracking equipment.
> Tell me about some of these bobcats you shot with the bow. I would =
like to
> hear the details and circumstances.
>=20
> northwoods
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Bill Jackson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: David Jackson
Date: 22 Mar 2000 02:25:01 GMT

Thanks Tetontodd, good luck on being a pilgram
Madjack

>From: [e-mail]
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: David Jackson
>Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 19:03:44 -0700
>
>Mad Jack,
>
>I refer you to "David E. Jackson, Field Captain of the Rocky Mountain Fur
>Trade." by Vivian L. Talbot. ISBN: 1-886402-01-9
>This is one of the few and best works on Davy Jackson.
>
>
>"Teton" Todd D. Glover
>Poison River Party Pilgrim
>
>________________________________________________________________
>YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
>Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
>Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
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______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 21 Mar 2000 19:48:45 -0700

Hello northwoods,
Over the years fellow archers have said that I made shooting bows up to 104#
seem effortless.  But let me tell you it seem awfully hard to pull that bow
back for more than 40 shots in a short period of time.  For years my all
around general purpose straight long bow was 71# at my draw length.  I shot
a 86# bow to tune up for the 104#.  I shoot a 58# straight long bow now.  I
am considering a 51# bow as I am at that age where I am growing older in the
body way faster than in the I think I can, in my mind.  I shot those 3 bob
cats with a 54# bow from 1955-1957.  About 4 miles behind me to the north is
the Yellowstone Bowman archery club.  I helped build that range.  Above that
range 3 rimrock steps run along for miles.  To the west Valley Creek.  To
the northwest is the famed Canyon Creek where the Nez Perce avoided serious
trouble with a stand off action near the mouth of the main canyon.  And the
flat top butte south of the range is mentioned in Two Leggings book as the
gathering of the last Crow war party.  In the winter of 1954 my father came
home with 5 bob cats he had shot for the bounty.  I got a good idea of what
the bob cat tracks looked like in the snow.  The next year I would go out to
the range when it snowed.  I would climb up on the rimrocks and try to cut
sign.  Once I had a track established.  I would go up on the rimrock above
the one carrying the cat tracks.  From there I would look and move.  Lock
and move.  Never moving faster than I could see below and ahead of me.  I
got one the first year.  It took 4 tries before I got my first bob cat
during the first year.  I got my second and third bob cat with a bow in 56
and the last with my brother along and one of his friends.  The next snow
when I went out was covered with boot tracks.  My brother and his friends
had been there ahead of me and never asked me to go along.  I went and got
started hunting elk.  I never thought much about it that is taking a bob cat
with a bow.  I love the excitement of the hunt and as I already had 2 deer
under my belt.  I never thought about buck fever.  Hunting was way better
then.  If I missed I could always go after the next one.  The best hunting
since the time of the mountain men reoccurred after WWII up to 1960 and has
dramatically gone down hill ever since.  At least in my experience.
Walt
Park City, Montana




----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 6:33 PM


>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Walt Foster <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: March 20, 2000 10:36 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
>
>
> > Bobcats are a different story.  I hunted them with a bow and arrow in
the
> 50s and was
> >successful as long as I hunted alone.
>
>
> You sure make it sound easy  Walt. How many people do you think could
> succesfully hunt bobcat with a stickbow? I could have shot one once with
my
> recurve, but I chose not to. We have cougar where I live. The neighbor
lady
> a mile down the road had a female with two young ones under her bird
feeder.
> My dad saw one only a few hundred yards from my doorstep last year. I have
> had numerous locals tell me of sightings. The Department of Natural
> Resources here in WI denies that there are any in the state but that isn't
> the case.
> I am intimately familiar with hound hunting. Compared to other methods it
is
> easy as far as I am concerened. Exspecially with modern technology like
> radio tracking equipment.
> Tell me about some of these bobcats you shot with the bow. I would like to
> hear the details and circumstances.
>
> northwoods
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?]
Date: 21 Mar 2000 19:53:42 -0700

Concho, I am familar with that neck of the woods.  The Cheyenne also eat dog
as do the Sioux.  The Crows do not.  What happened to the meats meat.....I
have eaten raw kidney with my Cheyenne friends because they claim it
prevents hangover.  There are somethings I won't eat.  Ain't been that
hungry yet.
Walt
Park City, Montana


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 7:07 PM


[e-mail] (Bill Cunningham) wrote:
Check out the mountain man camp journals the years they wintered in Cache
(Willow) Valley. When Black Harris and Fitzpatrick headed out to St. Louis
in February, they had a dog with them (they later killed it in a very
grizzly fashion and ate it).
Hey Bill,
There's been a mess of dog replies, have we gone that direction !!!

You talking about Black Harris and Fitzpatrick eating dog, ask Buck about
the
time him and Butcher York where at the "Holy Smokes" in Browning MT., and
asked to stay for the evening events with about 1200 native americans.
Seems some ladies bring out several dogs and the old chief pokes them a
little, make his selection. After a time Butcher says they hear a dog
raising
hell outside the building, then it get still, a few hours later he's served
as
the main meat in a stew. According to Butcher, Buck damn near got as green
as
the stew when eating his meal.

I've asked him about it and he still looks a little green years later when
he
thinks about it.

Later
Concho.

____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at
http://webmail.netscape.com.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Scoria Rock
Date: 21 Mar 2000 21:07:04 -0600

Washtahay-
At 06:13 PM 3/21/00 -0600, you wrote:
>>There are old catlanite digs in Wisconsin too.
>
>
>Where? I take a particular interest in this sort of thing.
>
    Take a look in the south end of the Barren Hills, between Canton and
Chetek (probably spelled that wrong).  Its a decent stone, but not as "red"
as the stone in MN.  The stone is also found, and was quarried in
prehistoric and historic times in OH and IL.  There is a rumor of a small
deposit in IA also.
LongWalker c. du B.


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From: tom roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linen
Date: 22 Mar 2000 00:31:14 -0500

Oh well, I had to ask.  If you ever think of any possible
source of this information I would be most grateful
for any lead.

Thanks,

Tom

[e-mail] wrote:

> There you have me....my expertise lies in certain areas of Native American
> clothing.
>
> Linda Holley
>
> tom roberts wrote:
>
> > Linda,
> >
> > You seem to be quite knowledgable about clothing.  Do you
> > know what weight and weave of linen garment fabric
> > would have been available to the 1820 fur trade in St. Louis?
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linen
Date: 21 Mar 2000 22:13:29 -0800

Tom,

Since we aren't getting anything authoritative out of this bunch, I'll
venture some ideas. In ML magazine this last issue is a nice article about
the Rev. Dodderidge (sic) who was a traveling preacher back around 1790's if
I remember the dates. That article has some quotes from his book of his
recollections of the times. He mentioned what common folks were wearing and
from what I remember the linen was fairly course and not at all like fine
Irish linens, etc. He also mentioned that it was common to wear linsy woolsy
which was linen threads up and down and wool threads back and forth through
the fabric. He commented that this was much warmer than straight linen. I
don't know if true linsy woolsy is available any more. You can get a linen
cotton version which is heavy enough for a hunting shirt or pants but it
won't be as warm.

Hope this helps a bit. There doesn't seem to be much information out there
about weights of fabric, you just sorta have to speculate a bit about what
would work best for whatever type of garment your making within the
limitations of still available fabrics. I found out recently that the sails
on the USS Constitution were made of linen canvas and it would have been
fairly heavy and suitable for tentage and  heavy garments like pantaloons
and knee britches. Probably about the same weight as cotton canvas today.
About all I have to offer. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?]
Date: 22 Mar 2000 06:38:48 -0800

On Tue, 21 March 2000, "Walt Foster" wrote:
> Concho, I am familar with that neck of the woods.  The Cheyenne also eat dog as do the Sioux.  The Crows do not.  What happened to the meats meat.....I have eaten raw kidney with my Cheyenne friends because they claim it prevents hangover.  There are somethings I won't eat.  Ain't been that hungry yet.
> Walt
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Concho Smith" <[e-mail]>
> After a time Butcher says they hear a dog raising hell outside the building, then it get still, a few hours later he's served as the main meat in a stew. According to Butcher, Buck damn near got as green as  the stew when eating his meal.......
> Concho
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thanks for bringing that up Concho, @#$%^&**

Walt, I think with the way we are raised today, what we eat and how many different animals are looked at as pets and not food as they where once considered, eating dog has become a "mind-set" that makes you act differently than what our forefathers did.

In the L&C journals it's mentioned several times of the men doing better on dog than on some game meats, like deer and elk for long periods. Clark talks about trading for dogs for lean periods to help with their diet.

What Concho said was a new experience for me, eating dog - most enjoyed watching me choke down that meal.

Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: The Woman On The Golden Dollar
Date: 22 Mar 2000 08:41:14 -0600

Here's the coin collectors take on Sacagawea.

Jim

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From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs & mountain lions
Date: 22 Mar 2000 06:45:40 -0800

On Tue, 21 March 2000, "Ratcliff" wrote:
> Don't let so called experts tell you there are no big cats pratically anywhere, particularly a state like Wisconsin.  There are more cats , including mountain lions, in unlikely places than many people realize.  For instance....about 3 years ago a friend of mine shot a 130 lb mountain lion from his deer stand in Bosque (bos-key) County, Texas, which is the county across the Brazos River from my county, which borders Tarrant County...Ft Worth.  A mountain lion was spotted repeatedly in Tarrant County this fall.  In fact, it ate a couple of dogs and had people afraid to let their kids play in the yard.  This cat was widely presumed to be an escaped or freed pet and was never captured.  About 5 years ago (before I moved here) another lion was captured on the very street where I live only about four blocks from my house and  was also presumed to be somebody's pet.  The neighbors said they couldn't kick their dogs outside.  The whined and groveled every night.
> YMOS
> Lanney Ratcliff
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lanney,

Years ago (10), when living in northern Colorado we would see a mountain lion several time throughout the year on the farm. I understand now they have moved to town and have become a problem feeding on the pets.

This past year where I live now we have seen two lions in our back yard, acre lots at the edge of the foothills over looking Denver. One was trying to catch a red fox that was passing through. The more ground that is put into housing areas the more the problem will continue.

Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Scoria Rock
Date: 22 Mar 2000 08:47:03 -0600

I know there is a quarry on the res near Hayward.  Supposedly some
outcroppings on the Chippewa River not to far from here.  This guy knows
alot of very interesting things, I can sit and listen to him for hours.

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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: hats
Date: 22 Mar 2000 08:53:00 -0600

    The explanation by Dick Summers of how beaver hats were made was quite
interesting.
    However, I have always heard that mercury was used somewhere in the
process. That is where the phrase "mad as a hatter" came from. The fumes are
dangerous stuff.
    Anybody know what part mercury played in the making of hats?
Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas


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From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Woman On The Golden Dollar
Date: 22 Mar 2000 09:01:36 -0600

Let's try that again!
>
> Here's the coin collectors take on Sacagawea.



http://collectors.com/coins/library/article_view.html?artid=2171&universeid=81&universedir=/coins/

You'll have to cut and paste to get the whole url.

>
> Jim
>
> ----------------------

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linen
Date: 22 Mar 2000 08:16:42 -0800

Get in touch with Hamilton Dry Goods = they have a web site. They are
located in Tennessee. Ron Hamilton will do you as much good on period
fabrics at an affordable price as anyone.
-----Original Message-----


>Tom,
>
>Since we aren't getting anything authoritative out of this bunch, I'll
>venture some ideas. In ML magazine this last issue is a nice article about
>the Rev. Dodderidge (sic) who was a traveling preacher back around 1790's
if
>I remember the dates. That article has some quotes from his book of his
>recollections of the times. He mentioned what common folks were wearing and
>from what I remember the linen was fairly course and not at all like fine
>Irish linens, etc. He also mentioned that it was common to wear linsy
woolsy
>which was linen threads up and down and wool threads back and forth through
>the fabric. He commented that this was much warmer than straight linen. I
>don't know if true linsy woolsy is available any more. You can get a linen
>cotton version which is heavy enough for a hunting shirt or pants but it
>won't be as warm.
>
>Hope this helps a bit. There doesn't seem to be much information out there
>about weights of fabric, you just sorta have to speculate a bit about what
>would work best for whatever type of garment your making within the
>limitations of still available fabrics. I found out recently that the sails
>on the USS Constitution were made of linen canvas and it would have been
>fairly heavy and suitable for tentage and  heavy garments like pantaloons
>and knee britches. Probably about the same weight as cotton canvas today.
>About all I have to offer. I remain.....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


----------------------
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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linen
Date: 22 Mar 2000 08:08:31 -0700

Bill,
Ron Hamilton, is a great resource and supplies a lot of the garment makers
in the country, he also has period paterns and pre made goods.
YMOS
Ole
----------
>From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linen
>Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000, 9:16 AM
>

>Get in touch with Hamilton Dry Goods = they have a web site. They are
>located in Tennessee. Ron Hamilton will do you as much good on period
>fabrics at an affordable price as anyone.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 10:12 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linen
>
>
>>Tom,
>>
>>Since we aren't getting anything authoritative out of this bunch, I'll
>>venture some ideas. In ML magazine this last issue is a nice article about
>>the Rev. Dodderidge (sic) who was a traveling preacher back around 1790's
>if
>>I remember the dates. That article has some quotes from his book of his
>>recollections of the times. He mentioned what common folks were wearing and
>>from what I remember the linen was fairly course and not at all like fine
>>Irish linens, etc. He also mentioned that it was common to wear linsy
>woolsy
>>which was linen threads up and down and wool threads back and forth through
>>the fabric. He commented that this was much warmer than straight linen. I
>>don't know if true linsy woolsy is available any more. You can get a linen
>>cotton version which is heavy enough for a hunting shirt or pants but it
>>won't be as warm.
>>
>>Hope this helps a bit. There doesn't seem to be much information out there
>>about weights of fabric, you just sorta have to speculate a bit about what
>>would work best for whatever type of garment your making within the
>>limitations of still available fabrics. I found out recently that the sails
>>on the USS Constitution were made of linen canvas and it would have been
>>fairly heavy and suitable for tentage and  heavy garments like pantaloons
>>and knee britches. Probably about the same weight as cotton canvas today.
>>About all I have to offer. I remain.....
>>
>>YMOS
>>Capt. Lahti'
>>
>>
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

----------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linen
Date: 22 Mar 2000 08:44:38 -0800

That sounds pretty authoritative to me, Ole.
-----Original Message-----


>Bill,
>Ron Hamilton, is a great resource and supplies a lot of the garment makers
>in the country, he also has period paterns and pre made goods.
>YMOS
>Ole
>----------
>>From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
>>To: <[e-mail]>
>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linen
>>Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000, 9:16 AM
>>
>
>>Get in touch with Hamilton Dry Goods = they have a web site. They are
>>located in Tennessee. Ron Hamilton will do you as much good on period
>>fabrics at an affordable price as anyone.
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
>>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>>Date: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 10:12 PM
>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linen
>>
>>
>>>Tom,
>>>
>>>Since we aren't getting anything authoritative out of this bunch, I'll
>>>venture some ideas. In ML magazine this last issue is a nice article
about
>>>the Rev. Dodderidge (sic) who was a traveling preacher back around 1790's
>>if
>>>I remember the dates. That article has some quotes from his book of his
>>>recollections of the times. He mentioned what common folks were wearing
and
>>>from what I remember the linen was fairly course and not at all like fine
>>>Irish linens, etc. He also mentioned that it was common to wear linsy
>>woolsy
>>>which was linen threads up and down and wool threads back and forth
through
>>>the fabric. He commented that this was much warmer than straight linen. I
>>>don't know if true linsy woolsy is available any more. You can get a
linen
>>>cotton version which is heavy enough for a hunting shirt or pants but it
>>>won't be as warm.
>>>
>>>Hope this helps a bit. There doesn't seem to be much information out
there
>>>about weights of fabric, you just sorta have to speculate a bit about
what
>>>would work best for whatever type of garment your making within the
>>>limitations of still available fabrics. I found out recently that the
sails
>>>on the USS Constitution were made of linen canvas and it would have been
>>>fairly heavy and suitable for tentage and  heavy garments like pantaloons
>>>and knee britches. Probably about the same weight as cotton canvas today.
>>>About all I have to offer. I remain.....
>>>
>>>YMOS
>>>Capt. Lahti'
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>----------------------
>>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


----------------------
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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?]
Date: 22 Mar 2000 08:32:21 -0700

 Thanks for bringing that up Concho, @#$%^&**
 Walt, I think with the way we are raised today, what we eat and how many
different animals are looked at as pets and not food as they where once
considered, eating dog has become a "mind-set" that makes you act
differently than what our forefathers did.
In the L&C journals it's mentioned several times of the men doing better on
dog than on some game meats, like deer and elk for long periods. Clark talks
about trading for dogs for lean periods to help with their diet. What Concho
said was a new experience for me, eating dog - most enjoyed watching me
choke down that meal. Later Buck Conner

Hello Buck,
I don't think I would have any trouble eating dog or any other kind of meat
for the most part.  My wife has Piegan blood in her and she cast a horrified
look my way as she watches over my shoulder about the eatin dog talk.  Meat
is meat but what chokes me up is the thought of eating Thistle for 10 days.
Cattail roots are well....mushy.

Curt in the nearby town of Laurel started a beaver feed just for fun back in
the early 70s.  About every kind of meat you can imagine started showing up
on the table.  Part of the fun was watching people.  Walt



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From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: dogs (as food)
Date: 22 Mar 2000 08:50:43 -0700

Well, while I probably wouldn't eat my favorite animal, I must admit to
having
had some "chow" once at a fort. Won't mention any names/ places.
Actually not bad.
tender, white meat. I think Barry is right. We are different today in
many ways from the
original mountaineers. And what we eat is just one part of it. Bill K.
and I have been having
a great conversation on what these men were like (compared to what we
think they were).
The best way to put it is if you have ever been with some groups of men
like loggers, wildcatters, etc. To not be coarse, crude and tough was
the exception. Most of the people
standing out side looking in (missionaries, families going west....)
thought of these guys as
not civil folks. They were tough when needed to be (when having to kill,
protect), kind when another of their own needed it. And they changed
with each year spent in the western frontier. And just to survive, they
had to. Eatting things like dog was no big thing for them, they probably
had to eat worse before.
                                                        mike.



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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linen
Date: 22 Mar 2000 08:09:08 -0800

Ole,

Sounds pretty authoritative to me too. <G> Don't know why I didn't think of
Hamilton, I surely know of him and he is a great source for period fabrics
and quit knowledgeable. Thanks. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 8:44 AM


> That sounds pretty authoritative to me, Ole.




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: dogs and snakes (as food)
Date: 22 Mar 2000 09:14:55 -0700

Funny, but there was a Miller painting depicting two starving trappers who
were found by the caravan in '37. According to "The West of Alfred Jacob
Miller" there was a quote to the effect when Stuart was apparently repulsed
by the thought of eating snakes "this child doest savy what discustin is,
waugh!" (the quote was at least close to that)

Nowadays, many of my compadres as well as my son, actually like the taste
of a well fried rattler. Guess it's all in the mind of the beholder.

Vic

>Well, while I probably wouldn't eat my favorite animal, I must admit to
>having
>had some "chow" once at a fort. Won't mention any names/ places.
>Actually not bad.
>tender, white meat. I think Barry is right. We are different today in
>many ways from the
>original mountaineers. And what we eat is just one part of it. Bill K.
>and I have been having
>a great conversation on what these men were like (compared to what we
>think they were).
>The best way to put it is if you have ever been with some groups of men
>like loggers, wildcatters, etc. To not be coarse, crude and tough was
>the exception. Most of the people
>standing out side looking in (missionaries, families going west....)
>thought of these guys as
>not civil folks. They were tough when needed to be (when having to kill,
>protect), kind when another of their own needed it. And they changed
>with each year spent in the western frontier. And just to survive, they
>had to. Eatting things like dog was no big thing for them, they probably
>had to eat worse before.
>                                                        mike.
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

Vic Nathan Barkin CGCM
Printing and Reproduction Services Manager
Northern Arizona University
Office of Public Affairs and Marketing
Creative Communications Department
Box 4101, Flagstaff, Az 86011
ph. 520-523-6160   fax [phone]

----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: dogs and snakes (as food)
Date: 22 Mar 2000 08:33:08 PST

I have eaten many a pound of rattlesnake here in southern Oklahoma. We used
to make a special trip to the annual rattlesnake hunts in Waurika, and
Waynoka, just for the purpose.
I have eaten the flesh of a lot of critters that live in this part of the
country, and only find the possum offensive.  The taste is fine, but once I
saw several possums dragging the entrails out of a several day dead cow, it
was too much for this child to handle.
Of course taste is relative to hunger, and dog looks mighty good when
stacked up next to possum and sweet potato's.  Can't say that I have eaten
domestic dog, but who knows when you have camped with Joe "Stray Dog"
Curtis.  I have had a coyote or two, weren't awful, but could have done
without it.
Cliff

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs & mountain lions
Date: 22 Mar 2000 09:36:23 -0700

Come on, let's stick to history and not hunting stories unless they
are black powder, an open can of worms that is just chit chat.

Thanking you in advance

Joe

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From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: dogs and snakes (as food)
Date: 22 Mar 2000 09:39:43 -0700

A TRUER STATEMENT COULD NOT BE MADE!

Vic

>Can't say that I have eaten
>domestic dog, but who knows when you have camped with Joe "Stray Dog"
>Curtis.
>Cliff
Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin
AMM #1537
Three Rivers Party

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linen
Date: 22 Mar 2000 09:48:14 -0700

Bill,
Ron told me that himself and I take him at his word.
YMOS
Ole
----------
>From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linen
>Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000, 9:44 AM
>

>That sounds pretty authoritative to me, Ole.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ole B. Jensen <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 7:08 AM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linen
>
>
>>Bill,
>>Ron Hamilton, is a great resource and supplies a lot of the garment makers
>>in the country, he also has period paterns and pre made goods.
>>YMOS
>>Ole
>>----------
>>>From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
>>>To: <[e-mail]>
>>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linen
>>>Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000, 9:16 AM
>>>
>>
>>>Get in touch with Hamilton Dry Goods = they have a web site. They are
>>>located in Tennessee. Ron Hamilton will do you as much good on period
>>>fabrics at an affordable price as anyone.
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
>>>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>>>Date: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 10:12 PM
>>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linen
>>>
>>>
>>>>Tom,
>>>>
>>>>Since we aren't getting anything authoritative out of this bunch, I'll
>>>>venture some ideas. In ML magazine this last issue is a nice article
>about
>>>>the Rev. Dodderidge (sic) who was a traveling preacher back around 1790's
>>>if
>>>>I remember the dates. That article has some quotes from his book of his
>>>>recollections of the times. He mentioned what common folks were wearing
>and
>>>>from what I remember the linen was fairly course and not at all like fine
>>>>Irish linens, etc. He also mentioned that it was common to wear linsy
>>>woolsy
>>>>which was linen threads up and down and wool threads back and forth
>through
>>>>the fabric. He commented that this was much warmer than straight linen. I
>>>>don't know if true linsy woolsy is available any more. You can get a
>linen
>>>>cotton version which is heavy enough for a hunting shirt or pants but it
>>>>won't be as warm.
>>>>
>>>>Hope this helps a bit. There doesn't seem to be much information out
>there
>>>>about weights of fabric, you just sorta have to speculate a bit about
>what
>>>>would work best for whatever type of garment your making within the
>>>>limitations of still available fabrics. I found out recently that the
>sails
>>>>on the USS Constitution were made of linen canvas and it would have been
>>>>fairly heavy and suitable for tentage and  heavy garments like pantaloons
>>>>and knee britches. Probably about the same weight as cotton canvas today.
>>>>About all I have to offer. I remain.....
>>>>
>>>>YMOS
>>>>Capt. Lahti'
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>----------------------
>>>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>>
>>>
>>>----------------------
>>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>>
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver "Packs"
Date: 22 Mar 2000 11:29:40 PST

I am interested in putting together two beaver bales or packs. Any
information on how to do this??
I have seen several references to 100# packs.  If an average plew weighs 1
1/2 pounds it would take over 120 hides to make two bales.  I have several
hides but no where near 120, so I was thinking of using a false center, such
as burlap or something to get the right feel and weight.  Then I could add
more hides and take out the burlap as I caught more beaver.
I assume the hides were folded in some fashion, with the rawhide side out,
then pressed and bound with rawhide.  Any ideas?????

Cliff Tiffie
PO Box 5089
Durant, OK
74702
580-924-4187
---------------------
Aux Aliments de Pays!

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hats
Date: 22 Mar 2000 15:48:57 -0700

Yes, the slurry mix that the felt was mixed with did contain mercury which =
made the mixers go mad because they mixed it all around with their bare =
hands.

On Thursday, May 11, 1939, Frank Fusco <[e-mail]> wrote:
>    The explanation by Dick Summers of how beaver hats were made was =
quite
>interesting.
>    However, I have always heard that mercury was used somewhere in the
>process. That is where the phrase "mad as a hatter" came from. The fumes =
are
>dangerous stuff.
>    Anybody know what part mercury played in the making of hats?
>Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info:
>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: tom roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linen
Date: 22 Mar 2000 19:46:54 -0500

Excellent lead - thanks Bill.

Bill Cunningham wrote:

> Get in touch with Hamilton Dry Goods = they have a web site. They are
> located in Tennessee. Ron Hamilton will do you as much good on period
> fabrics at an affordable price as anyone.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 10:12 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linen
>
> >Tom,
> >
> >Since we aren't getting anything authoritative out of this bunch, I'll
> >venture some ideas. In ML magazine this last issue is a nice article about
> >the Rev. Dodderidge (sic) who was a traveling preacher back around 1790's
> if
> >I remember the dates. That article has some quotes from his book of his
> >recollections of the times. He mentioned what common folks were wearing and
> >from what I remember the linen was fairly course and not at all like fine
> >Irish linens, etc. He also mentioned that it was common to wear linsy
> woolsy
> >which was linen threads up and down and wool threads back and forth through
> >the fabric. He commented that this was much warmer than straight linen. I
> >don't know if true linsy woolsy is available any more. You can get a linen
> >cotton version which is heavy enough for a hunting shirt or pants but it
> >won't be as warm.
> >
> >Hope this helps a bit. There doesn't seem to be much information out there
> >about weights of fabric, you just sorta have to speculate a bit about what
> >would work best for whatever type of garment your making within the
> >limitations of still available fabrics. I found out recently that the sails
> >on the USS Constitution were made of linen canvas and it would have been
> >fairly heavy and suitable for tentage and  heavy garments like pantaloons
> >and knee britches. Probably about the same weight as cotton canvas today.
> >About all I have to offer. I remain.....
> >
> >YMOS
> >Capt. Lahti'
> >
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Matt  P" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
Date: 22 Mar 2000 20:13:39 -0600

For everyone who's wondering... the article about L&C's Newfoundland
is"Seaman" by Micheal Iachetta in the April 2000 _Dog & Kennel_.   It's NOT
available at their website http://www.dogandkennel.com , but ya'll should be
able to buy it at almost any store.
Matt in Texas
<[e-mail]>
                Moonwolf's Den
http://pages.ivillage.com/misc/txmoonwolf/


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From: "Matthew Porter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver Hats
Date: 23 Mar 2000 16:36:43 -0600

Hi all,
    Beaver hats were sometimes shaped using mercury.  As we know, if we
absorb mercury, it will make us crazy.  Thus the name "Mad Hatter."  The
people that wore the hats also became a little crazy, too.  I was told this
information last year in biology class.  I thought ya'll might like this tid
bit of info.

Matt
  Porter


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Kinnickinnick
Date: 23 Mar 2000 19:29:50 EST

Last week I found some kinnickinnick plants here in Washington state.  I
thought I might make my own tobacco.  I knew it was a mix of plants.  On the
Internet I learned that there was not a kinnickinnick plant.  Rather it is
berryberry (Arctostaphylos uva-ursi).  This one site said that berryberry,
Labrador tea, and dogwood leaves were often combined to make the Indian
tobacco kinnickkiinnick.

So, my question is (1) Has anyone ever tried to grow berryberry to make
kinnickinnick, and (2) Does anyone on the list have a special blend they have
created for their enjoyment?  Yes, I can buy kinnickinnick here in
Washington, but that wouldn't be near as much fun.

Fair weather,
Laura Glise

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Kinnickinnick
Date: 23 Mar 2000 19:59:40 EST

> Labrador tea, and dogwood leaves were often combined to make the Indian
>  tobacco kinnickkiinnick.

Laura,

If ya got Labrador Tea, just chew on it.  It can make you kinda loopy and
give you a nice buzz.

Dave Kanger

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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Kinnickinnick
Date: 23 Mar 2000 17:32:20 -0800

Ms. Laura Jean,

You can probably buy the plant in a nursery over your way. It is a low
growing evergreen as I recall. May not be green leaves but may be a red
shade. I don't have a favorite recipe but it has been discussed in the past.
Probably the most fun would be to gather the ingredients here in WA. and
make your own. You might have to buy a couple items like the Labrador tea
but I bet there is a local version. Hope this helps. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: Trapping article in local paper
Date: 23 Mar 2000 21:13:06 -0500 (EST)

Neil Morgan keeps alive a storied Michigan tradition of trapping beavers
and other furbearing critters

By Alan R. Kamuda
Detroit Free Press
March 23, 2000, p. 6D

The trapping season starts early for Neil Morgan.
"I start scouting the rivers during the summer," says Morgan, 38, who
has been trapping northern Michigan for the past 27 years.
"When I'm out here trout fishing, I keep a notebook with me and I write
down all the places I think the beaver will be. Then I come back out to
these places in the winter and set the traps. It works pretty good. The
season's all year long for me."
   During the warm months, Morgan works as a journeyman lineman,
building the tall power lines that crisscross the state.
   He spends the winter and spring crisscrossing the state in swampers
and waders, going after the furbearing animals that have been trapped on
this land since the glaciers left. It's not exactly a lost art -- the
Department of Natural Resources issued 17,000 various trapping licenses
this season -- but it's not the industry it once was.
   "Biggest line I've ever run was 300 traps between here and Traverse
City," says Morgan, who, with cousin Mike Lail, checks his newly laid
traps along the inland waters of the Ocqueoc River in Presque Isle
County. "It took us three hours to check them out in one direction, then
another three hours to check them out on the way back."
   Morgan goes after all of lower Michigan's furbearers -- beaver, mink,
coyote, bobcat, otter, coon, ermine, muskrat and skunk. But he
concentrates on beaver during the season and does nuisance trapping for
them in the off-season, removing beavers that take down trees and dam up
streams.
   "I thought I'd close out at 125 or so this year," Morgan says, "but
it looks like I'll take around 150 before the season ends. Trapping
season in the Lower Peninsula ends April 16.
   "It's kind of surprising when you see the damage the beaver can do to
the environment. People buy a piece of property up here and don't want
me trapping near it till they see what a beaver can do to the land. Then
they call me in to help them out."
   Trapping wasn't a family tradition. Morgan learned the trade that
brought European trappers into the Great Lakes -- and brought about the
founding of Detroit -- from Les Wilkerson, an old-time woodsman who,
like Morgan, lived near Millersburg.
   "I learned the tricks from one of the best," Morgan says as he pours
homemade scent on a stick hanging over one of his traps. "He took me in
as a little kid and taught me how to trap. He taught me how to think
like they do. Now, I'm just like the animals I'm trapping."
   Morgan makes wallhangings from beaver skins stretched out in red
willow hoops that he sells from his home. He sends the rest of his pelts
to the fur markets and sells some of his catches to friends who have
them mounted. The price of the hides runs between $2 for a small muskrat
to $60 for a large male otter.
   "I surely don't do this for the money," Morgan says as he takes a
dead beaver out of a big Conibear 330 trap. "You're lucky if you break
even. I do it because I love it, it's in my blood, it's the way I've
learned to live. I believe in God, and all my time with Him is when I'm
in the woods."
   And Morgan is passing his love on to his son Devin, 16, who works the
trap lines with him on weekends and helps clean the catches during the
week.
   "I thank God for the time I get to spend with my son," Morgan says.
"It's a special kind of bonding most people don't have a chance at."


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From: Mike Rock <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: BEAR.berry...
Date: 23 Mar 2000 21:59:13 -0600


Laura...
Bearberry is sure different from beriberi...

Try some of the inner bark of the red osier..get it before the first
thunderstorm...   I scraped a sackfull for the people in SD a few years
ago, and they loved it.  The 'thunderstorm' timing is so that the taste
is still sweet, not bitter and acrid.  It must be early in the season,
before budding.   In the same manner as when tapping maple, you have to
stop when the trees bud out...the sap, and the syrup taste pretty
treelike then..not good at all.

Mike

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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BEAR.berry...
Date: 23 Mar 2000 21:52:45 -0700

Good Post Mike,

Around here there is about a 3 week span while it works good.

Walt
Park City, Montana



> Try some of the inner bark of the red osier..get it before the first
> thunderstorm...   I scraped a sackfull for the people in SD a few years
> ago, and they loved it.  The 'thunderstorm' timing is so that the taste
> is still sweet, not bitter and acrid.  It must be early in the season,
> before budding.   In the same manner as when tapping maple, you have to
> stop when the trees bud out...the sap, and the syrup taste pretty
> treelike then..not good at all.> Mike



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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: <no subject>
Date: 24 Mar 2000 07:07:14 -0700

Hello the Camp!
It has been a couple of weeks since I put up anything, but now I have a
question. I remember someone posting  comments about blue willow ceramics
that were dug up in a Hudson Bay Trading Fort in the north west, could
someone tell me more about it and describe what it looked like exactly.
YMOS
Ole

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: snakes and beaver (as food)
Date: 24 Mar 2000 10:07:50 -0500

Ho the list,
    I have eaten Bull snake in the mid west, and Milk snake here in New
Hampshire.  I found both very tasty and would prefer it to a lot of other
things I have eaten.  They are easy to gut, skin and butcher, cook well
over an open fire or home grill, and the skin is reasonably easy to tan
for hat bands etc.
    The White Mountain Party is holdin a Beaver trappin camp this weekend
and beaver is on the menu.  I will write an article for the T&LR
hopefully with pictures, and will humbly submit it for publication soon
after the doin's.
    I agree with what has been said about modern upbringing and thinking
about what is food and what is not.  If this thinking can be overcome,
there be good food in the sources our period Brothers found.  My 2 cents
worth.

Trap-R-John
AMM - White Mountain Party
"Don't compromise on your civil rights, they are yours!!!  Stand up for
what's right!!!"


On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:33:08 PST "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
writes:
> I have eaten many a pound of rattlesnake here in southern Oklahoma.
> We used
> to make a special trip to the annual rattlesnake hunts in Waurika,
> and
> Waynoka, just for the purpose.
> I have eaten the flesh of a lot of critters that live in this part
> of the
> country, and only find the possum offensive.  The taste is fine, but
> once I
> saw several possums dragging the entrails out of a several day dead
> cow, it
> was too much for this child to handle.
> Of course taste is relative to hunger, and dog looks mighty good
> when
> stacked up next to possum and sweet potato's.  Can't say that I have
> eaten
> domestic dog, but who knows when you have camped with Joe "Stray
> Dog"
> Curtis.  I have had a coyote or two, weren't awful, but could have
> done
> without it.
> Cliff
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
> ----------------------
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver "Packs"
Date: 24 Mar 2000 10:19:15 -0500

Anytime I have shipped raw dried and streched beaver, I lay down the
first hide fur up then the second goes on top of the first fur down, the
third hide down etc.  The object being to put the fur sides together and
the skin sides together.  I suspect the mountain men did this before
pressing and bailing their furs, but haven't seen references to this.
Maybe someone has more info.

Trap-R-John
YMHOS
AMM - White Mountain Party
"Don't compromise on your civil rights, they are yours!!!  Stand up for
what's right!!!"


On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 11:29:40 PST "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
writes:
> I am interested in putting together two beaver bales or packs. Any
> information on how to do this??
> I have seen several references to 100# packs.  If an average plew
> weighs 1
> 1/2 pounds it would take over 120 hides to make two bales.  I have
> several
> hides but no where near 120, so I was thinking of using a false
> center, such
> as burlap or something to get the right feel and weight.  Then I
> could add
> more hides and take out the burlap as I caught more beaver.
> I assume the hides were folded in some fashion, with the rawhide
> side out,
> then pressed and bound with rawhide.  Any ideas?????
>
> Cliff Tiffie
> PO Box 5089
> Durant, OK
> 74702
> 580-924-4187
> ---------------------
> Aux Aliments de Pays!
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
> ----------------------
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> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: <no subject>
Date: 24 Mar 2000 10:43:19 -0800

I posted it, Ole. I was doing research back in the early 1980s and ran
across it. Found it in the library at Weber. Can't remember now which book
it was, but I'm sure they still have it (they never get rid of anything!).
But Dick James can probably quote you chapter and verse.
Bill
-----Original Message-----


>Hello the Camp!
>It has been a couple of weeks since I put up anything, but now I have a
>question. I remember someone posting  comments about blue willow ceramics
>that were dug up in a Hudson Bay Trading Fort in the north west, could
>someone tell me more about it and describe what it looked like exactly.
>YMOS
>Ole
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver "Packs"
Date: 24 Mar 2000 14:40:04 -0600


-----Original Message-----


>Anytime I have shipped raw dried and streched beaver, I lay down the
>first hide fur up then the second goes on top of the first fur down, the
>third hide down etc.  The object being to put the fur sides together and
>the skin sides together.  I suspect the mountain men did this before
>pressing and bailing their furs, but haven't seen references to this.

I believe that is generally the way they did it. I know I read that they
often placed a bear hide as the last fur so it acted as a cover. It was very
important to have some sort of very durable cover on the packs. It took
about 80 beaver to make a 100# pack.

northwoods


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From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver "Packs"
Date: 24 Mar 2000 09:35:39 -0700

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Cliff Tiffie wrote:

I am interested in putting together two beaver bales or packs. Any =
information on how to do this??

We have been in company with multitudes of emigrants the whole day. The =
road has been lined to a long extent with their wagons, whose white =
covers, glittering in the sunlight, resembled, at a distance, ships upon =
the ocean. We passed a company from Boston, consisting of seventy =
persons, one hundred and forty pack and riding mules, a number of riding =
horses, and a drove of cattle for beef. The expedition, as might be =
expected, and as is to generally the case, was badly conducted: the =
mules were overloaded, and the manner of securing and arranging the =
packs elicited many a sarcastic criticism from our party, most of whom =
were old mountain-men, with whom the making of a pack and the loading of =
a mule amounted to a science.

Southcentral Nebraska. June 12, 1849

Captain Howard Stansbury

Army topographical engineer=20

Welcome to science class if'n you want to figure out how a mountaineer =
made his bales.

I have seen several references to 100# packs

Here is my two cents. A bale is half a load on a pack animal. A 200# =
load on a 700-900# animal is real heavy. Not that it was not done but it =
is sure pushing it. Most sources say to figure between 10% and 15% body =
weight if you plan for a long haul.=20

If an average plew weighs 1 1/2 pounds it would take over 120 hides to =
make two bales.

Is this correct? Since you have some I assume you would know, but I =
thought they would be heavier than that.

I assume the hides were folded in some fashion, with the rawhide side =
out, then pressed and bound with rawhide. Any ideas?????

A pack could be pretty wide (say 36"+/-) and real tall (say 48" well =
maybe not that tall with short horses).  Run a rope (rawhide very =
possibly) around the load vertically with the honda at the top and then =
throwing half hitches down horizontally every 6 to 12 inches then =
running the rope back under the load and tying off at the top. Pull =
tight every step of the way. I can not claim whether this is historical =
but it sure ties up a load. Perhaps that is something else to research.

Keep us updated on your discoveries.

YMOS

WY


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<HTML><HEAD>
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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<P>Cliff Tiffie wrote:</P>
<P>I am interested in putting together two beaver bales or packs. Any=20
information on how to do this??</P>
<P>We have been in company with multitudes of emigrants the whole day. =
The road=20
has been lined to a long extent with their wagons, whose white covers,=20
glittering in the sunlight, resembled, at a distance, ships upon the =
ocean. We=20
passed a company from Boston, consisting of seventy persons, one hundred =
and=20
forty pack and riding mules, a number of riding horses, and a drove of =
cattle=20
for beef. The expedition, as might be expected, and as is to generally =
the case,=20
was badly conducted: the mules were overloaded, and the manner of =
securing and=20
arranging the packs elicited many a sarcastic criticism from our party, =
most of=20
whom were old mountain-men, with whom the making of a pack and the =
loading of a=20
mule amounted to a science.</P>
<P>Southcentral Nebraska. June 12, 1849</P>
<P>Captain Howard Stansbury</P>
<P>Army topographical engineer </P>
<P>Welcome to science class if’n you want to figure out how a =
mountaineer made=20
his bales.</P>
<P>I have seen several references to 100# packs</P>
<P>Here is my two cents. A bale is half a load on a pack animal. A 200# =
load on=20
a 700-900# animal is real heavy. Not that it was not done but it is sure =
pushing=20
it. Most sources say to figure between 10% and 15% body weight if you =
plan for a=20
long haul. </P>
<P>If an average plew weighs 1 1/2 pounds it would take over 120 hides =
to make=20
two bales.</P>
<P>Is this correct? Since you have some I assume you would know, but I =
thought=20
they would be heavier than that.</P>
<P>I assume the hides were folded in some fashion, with the rawhide side =
out,=20
then pressed and bound with rawhide. Any ideas?????</P>
<P>A pack could be pretty wide (say 36"+/-) and real tall (say 48" well =
maybe=20
not that tall with short horses).  Run a rope (rawhide very =
possibly)=20
around the load vertically with the honda at the top and then throwing =
half=20
hitches down horizontally every 6 to 12 inches then running the rope =
back under=20
the load and tying off at the top. Pull tight every step of the way. I =
can not=20
claim whether this is historical but it sure ties up a load. Perhaps =
that is=20
something else to research.</P>
<P>Keep us updated on your discoveries.</P>
<P>YMOS</P>
<P>WY</P></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Saddles?
Date: 24 Mar 2000 09:47:25 -0700

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I would like to learn more about the "Spanish" saddles used during the =
fur trade. Or, if that knowledge is as hard to find as the B of B VIII =
leads me to believe, what is being used by horseman who get on the =
ground today?

Also, what is a good source for period correct things like buckles, =
rivets, and buttons?=20


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<DIV>
<P>I would like to learn more about the "Spanish" saddles used during =
the fur=20
trade. Or, if that knowledge is as hard to find as the B of B VIII leads =
me to=20
believe, what is being used by horseman who get on the ground today?</P>
<P>Also, what is a good source for period correct things like buckles, =
rivets,=20
and buttons? </P></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Dogs? you'll want to read this one
Date: 25 Mar 2000 03:25:43 EST

Hello in the camp;l what ya got cookin?
I came across this, thought I might share with ya. In Ferris' Life In The
Rocky Mountains. No, it ain't about no cookin dog. It's about a dog tryin to
save a trapper and his mule tryin to get him killed. Page 130; "Boys, I am
wound!'  We saw at once that a well-directed ball had been intercepted by his
gun, which thus evidently saved his life. The same bullet, previous to
striking his gun, had passed through the neck of his mule, and grazed the
pommel of his saddle. He was also struck in the should, by an arrow, but both
wounds were slight.
    After recovering his wonted control over the faculties of speech, he gave
us the following particulars of the affair, which was ever afterwards
facetiously termed "Milman's Defeat."  Whilst jogging along, three or four
miles from camp, and calculating the probable sum total of dollars he should
accumulate from the sales of furs he purposed taking from his traps that
morning, his dog suddenly commenced barking at some invisible object which he
supposed to be a squirrel, badger, or some other small animal, that had taken
refuge in its burrow. Satisfied of his own sagacity in arriving at this
conclusion, he advanced thoughtlessly, until he reached the top of a gently
ascending knoll, whence, to his utter astonishment and dismay, he discovered
the heads of seven or eight Indians ,( That's when he got shot with the
bullet and he got the arrow when this mule would not go.) Just goes to show,
always listen to your dog and never trust a mule. Milman was going to check
his traps with his dog and in away was hunting with him but it turned out
they were the ones being hunted. Was that what you were looking for when
first asked your question Matt? When it comes to dogs I don't think much has
changed some like'm some don't. I likes mine just fine, with salt and pepper.
                                 See ya on the trail
                                    Crazy Cyot

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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles?
Date: 25 Mar 2000 08:07:12 -0700

> THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Wynn,
I have done research on period saddles for about 15 years, and soon plan to
write down what I know for the T&L. The best source I know of for period
sadles is = Bison Saddlery in Helena , MT
406-449-7231
I am dubious about the "Hybrid Spanish" Saddle, I would get a copy of Man
Made Mobile from your local Library and check out the letters writen by
Thorten Grimsley.
About Buckles, rivets and buttons that is a wide subject,
For Iron buckles I blacksmith my own, for brass and peweter I usuly look at
sources like
Jas Townsend & Son (219-594-5852) or Track of the Wolf (612-424-2500).
If I use steel rivets I make them on a forge and for copper I will use a
copper ground wire from my local electric supply co.
Tell me exactly what you are looking for?
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------


I would like to learn more about the "Spanish" saddles used during the fur
trade. Or, if that knowledge is as hard to find as the B of B VIII leads me
to believe, what is being used by horseman who get on the ground today?

Also, what is a good source for period correct things like buckles, rivets,
and buttons?


--MS_Mac_OE_3036816432_159263_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: MtMan-List: Saddles?</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#FFFFFF">
Wynn,<BR>
I have done research on period saddles for about 15 years, and soon plan to=
 write down what I know for the T&L. The best source I know of for perio=
d sadles is =3D Bison Saddlery in Helena , MT<BR>
406-449-7231<BR>
I am dubious about the "Hybrid Spanish" Saddle, I would get a cop=
y of Man Made Mobile from your local Library and check out the letters write=
n by Thorten Grimsley.<BR>
About Buckles, rivets and buttons that is a wide subject, <BR>
For Iron buckles I blacksmith my own, for brass and peweter I usuly look at=
 sources like <BR>
Jas Townsend & Son (219-594-5852) or Track of the Wolf (612-424-2500).<=
BR>
If I use steel rivets I make them on a forge and for copper I will use a co=
pper ground wire from my local electric supply co.<BR>
Tell me exactly what you are looking for?<BR>
YMOS<BR>
Ole # 718<BR>
----------<BR>
R>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>I would like to learn more about the "Spanish" saddle=
s used during the fur trade. Or, if that knowledge is as hard to find as the=
 B of B VIII leads me to believe, what is being used by horseman who get on =
the ground today? <BR>
<BR>
Also, what is a good source for period correct things like buckles, rivets,=
 and buttons? <BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BODY>
</HTML>

--MS_Mac_OE_3036816432_159263_MIME_Part--


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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Blue Willow Ware?
Date: 25 Mar 2000 08:13:37 -0700

Hello the camp!
Who can tell me what Blue Willow Ware looked like?
YMOS
Ole # 718

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From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver "Packs"
Date: 25 Mar 2000 08:25:34 -0700


--------------D8CAFA4BC32B19C504B03EF9
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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I had a conversation with Rex Norman about this, a couple years ago when
they were making the bales for Ft. Laramie. He figured the streched,
dried  hides were folded in half.
This way, you  can get a square bale by layering the long flat edges to
the outside. It also puts the hair to hair, which is what my dad and I
did when we hauled the hides to the fur buyer.  It will also (by
folding) give you a good idea the wideth for making bales.
Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote:

> Cliff Tiffie wrote:
>
> I am interested in putting together two beaver bales or packs. Any
> information on how to do this??
>
> We have been in company with multitudes of emigrants the whole day.
> The road has been lined to a long extent with their wagons, whose
> white covers, glittering in the sunlight, resembled, at a distance,
> ships upon the ocean. We passed a company from Boston, consisting of
> seventy persons, one hundred and forty pack and riding mules, a number
> of riding horses, and a drove of cattle for beef. The expedition, as
> might be expected, and as is to generally the case, was badly
> conducted: the mules were overloaded, and the manner of securing and
> arranging the packs elicited many a sarcastic criticism from our
> party, most of whom were old mountain-men, with whom the making of a
> pack and the loading of a mule amounted to a science.
>
> Southcentral Nebraska. June 12, 1849
>
> Captain Howard Stansbury
>
> Army topographical engineer
>
> Welcome to science class if=92n you want to figure out how a mountainee=
r
> made his bales.
>
> I have seen several references to 100# packs
>
> Here is my two cents. A bale is half a load on a pack animal. A 200#
> load on a 700-900# animal is real heavy. Not that it was not done but
> it is sure pushing it. Most sources say to figure between 10% and 15%
> body weight if you plan for a long haul.
>
> If an average plew weighs 1 1/2 pounds it would take over 120 hides to
> make two bales.
>
> Is this correct? Since you have some I assume you would know, but I
> thought they would be heavier than that.
>
> I assume the hides were folded in some fashion, with the rawhide side
> out, then pressed and bound with rawhide. Any ideas?????
>
> A pack could be pretty wide (say 36"+/-) and real tall (say 48" well
> maybe not that tall with short horses).  Run a rope (rawhide very
> possibly) around the load vertically with the honda at the top and
> then throwing half hitches down horizontally every 6 to 12 inches then
> running the rope back under the load and tying off at the top. Pull
> tight every step of the way. I can not claim whether this is
> historical but it sure ties up a load. Perhaps that is something else
> to research.
>
> Keep us updated on your discoveries.
>
> YMOS
>
> WY

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I had a conversation with Rex Norman about this, a couple years ago when
they were making the bales for Ft. Laramie. He figured the streched, drie=
d
hides were folded in half.
<br>This way, you  can get a square bale by layering the long flat
edges to the outside. It also puts the hair to hair, which is what my dad
and I did when we hauled the hides to the fur buyer.  It will also
(by folding) give you a good idea the wideth for making bales.
<br>Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=3DCITE><style></style>
Cliff Tiffie wrote:
<p>I am interested in putting together two beaver bales or packs. Any inf=
ormation
on how to do this??
<p>We have been in company with multitudes of emigrants the whole day.
The road has been lined to a long extent with their wagons, whose white
covers, glittering in the sunlight, resembled, at a distance, ships upon
the ocean. We passed a company from Boston, consisting of seventy persons=
,
one hundred and forty pack and riding mules, a number of riding horses,
and a drove of cattle for beef. The expedition, as might be expected, and
as is to generally the case, was badly conducted: the mules were overload=
ed,
and the manner of securing and arranging the packs elicited many a sarcas=
tic
criticism from our party, most of whom were old mountain-men, with whom
the making of a pack and the loading of a mule amounted to a science.
<p>Southcentral Nebraska. June 12, 1849
<p>Captain Howard Stansbury
<p>Army topographical engineer
<p>Welcome to science class if=92n you want to figure out how a mountaine=
er
made his bales.
<p>I have seen several references to 100# packs
<p>Here is my two cents. A bale is half a load on a pack animal. A 200#
load on a 700-900# animal is real heavy. Not that it was not done but it
is sure pushing it. Most sources say to figure between 10% and 15% body
weight if you plan for a long haul.
<p>If an average plew weighs 1 1/2 pounds it would take over 120 hides
to make two bales.
<p>Is this correct? Since you have some I assume you would know, but I
thought they would be heavier than that.
<p>I assume the hides were folded in some fashion, with the rawhide side
out, then pressed and bound with rawhide. Any ideas?????
<p>A pack could be pretty wide (say 36"+/-) and real tall (say 48" well
maybe not that tall with short horses).  Run a rope (rawhide very
possibly) around the load vertically with the honda at the top and then
throwing half hitches down horizontally every 6 to 12 inches then running
the rope back under the load and tying off at the top. Pull tight every
step of the way. I can not claim whether this is historical but it sure
ties up a load. Perhaps that is something else to research.
<p>Keep us updated on your discoveries.
<p>YMOS
<p>WY</blockquote>

</body>
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles?
Date: 25 Mar 2000 13:04:38 EST

Hello in the camp
Wynn I ride one of Bob Schmidt saddles of Historical Enterprises. He makes a
good saddle for less money then you can buy any where. He is also an AMM
member his address is 1100 N.E. Hamilton Hgts. Road Corvallis,  Mt 59828
phone number 406-9614243.
                                           see ya on the trail
                                             Crazy Cyot

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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles?
Date: 25 Mar 2000 11:55:48 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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If you want to know what the Spanish (Mexican) saddles of the period =
looked like - or want a new one today, talk to Bob Schmidt up in =
Hamilton, MT. Or. . . get in touch with Casa Gardea saddle company in =
Chihuahua MX. They made them then and they make them now - at reasonable =
prices.
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Ole B. Jensen <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Saturday, March 25, 2000 7:09 AM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles?
   =20
   =20
    Wynn,
    I have done research on period saddles for about 15 years, and soon =
plan to write down what I know for the T&L. The best source I know of =
for period sadles is =3D Bison Saddlery in Helena , MT
    406-449-7231
    I am dubious about the "Hybrid Spanish" Saddle, I would get a copy =
of Man Made Mobile from your local Library and check out the letters =
writen by Thorten Grimsley.
    About Buckles, rivets and buttons that is a wide subject,=20
    For Iron buckles I blacksmith my own, for brass and peweter I usuly =
look at sources like=20
    Jas Townsend & Son (219-594-5852) or Track of the Wolf =
(612-424-2500).
    If I use steel rivets I make them on a forge and for copper I will =
use a copper ground wire from my local electric supply co.
    Tell me exactly what you are looking for?
    YMOS
    Ole # 718
    ----------
    From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
    To: <[e-mail]>
    Subject: MtMan-List: Saddles?
    Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000, 9:47 AM
   =20
   =20
   =20
        I would like to learn more about the "Spanish" saddles used =
during the fur trade. Or, if that knowledge is as hard to find as the B =
of B VIII leads me to believe, what is being used by horseman who get on =
the ground today?=20
       =20
        Also, what is a good source for period correct things like =
buckles, rivets, and buttons?=20
       =20


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<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>Re: MtMan-List: Saddles?</TITLE>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>If you want to know what the Spanish =
(Mexican)=20
saddles of the period looked like - or want a new one today, talk to Bob =
Schmidt=20
up in Hamilton, MT. Or. . . get in touch with Casa Gardea saddle company =
in=20
Chihuahua MX. They made them then and they make them now - at reasonable =

prices.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Ole B. Jensen <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>>=
<BR><B>To:=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Saturday, March 25, 2000 7:09 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: =
MtMan-List:=20
    Saddles?<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>Wynn,<BR>I have done research on period =
saddles=20
    for about 15 years, and soon plan to write down what I know for the =
T&L.=20
    The best source I know of for period sadles is =3D Bison Saddlery in =
Helena ,=20
    MT<BR>406-449-7231<BR>I am dubious about the "Hybrid =
Spanish"=20
    Saddle, I would get a copy of Man Made Mobile from your local =
Library and=20
    check out the letters writen by Thorten Grimsley.<BR>About Buckles, =
rivets=20
    and buttons that is a wide subject, <BR>For Iron buckles I =
blacksmith my=20
    own, for brass and peweter I usuly look at sources like <BR>Jas =
Townsend=20
    & Son (219-594-5852) or Track of the Wolf (612-424-2500).<BR>If =
I use=20
    steel rivets I make them on a forge and for copper I will use a =
copper=20
    ground wire from my local electric supply co.<BR>Tell me exactly =
what you=20
    are looking for?<BR>YMOS<BR>Ole # 718<BR>----------<BR>From: =
"Wynn=20
    & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]><BR>To:=20
    <[e-mail]><BR>Subject: MtMan-List:=20
    Saddles?<BR>Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000, 9:47 AM<BR><BR><BR>
    <BLOCKQUOTE>I would like to learn more about the "Spanish" =

        saddles used during the fur trade. Or, if that knowledge is as =
hard to=20
        find as the B of B VIII leads me to believe, what is being used =
by=20
        horseman who get on the ground today? <BR><BR>Also, what is a =
good=20
        source for period correct things like buckles, rivets, and =
buttons?=20
        <BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles?
Date: 25 Mar 2000 12:02:55 -0800

I'll second that.  I have one of Bob's saddles, an 1824 replica.  Fits me
and the horse well.  Took a tracing of the horse's back , both from the side
and the butt end.  Bob had the tree made to fit.  I sure like riding in it.
John Funk


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2000 10:04 AM


> Hello in the camp
> Wynn I ride one of Bob Schmidt saddles of Historical Enterprises. He makes
a
> good saddle for less money then you can buy any where. He is also an AMM
> member his address is 1100 N.E. Hamilton Hgts. Road Corvallis,  Mt 59828
> phone number 406-9614243.
>                                            see ya on the trail
>                                              Crazy Cyot
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lynn Kirby <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles?
Date: 25 Mar 2000 12:54:25 -0800 (PST)

I'm also interested in any information you may have
dealing with period saddles. I'm currently attempting
to build one after having located a spanish-style
tree.
I'v read "Man Made Mobile" and "Saddles"and am still
looking for a little more detail. Mostly concerning
the rigging and weather or not any type of ground seat
was used. Any infirmation would be greatly appreciated
.  Thank You    Lynn
                Stuck in Arizona

--- "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]> wrote:
> Wynn,
> I have done research on period saddles for about 15
> years, and soon plan to
> write down what I know for the T&L. The best source
> I know of for period
> sadles is = Bison Saddlery in Helena , MT
> 406-449-7231
> I am dubious about the "Hybrid Spanish" Saddle, I
> would get a copy of Man
> Made Mobile from your local Library and check out
> the letters writen by
> Thorten Grimsley.
> About Buckles, rivets and buttons that is a wide
> subject,
> For Iron buckles I blacksmith my own, for brass and
> peweter I usuly look at
> sources like
> Jas Townsend & Son (219-594-5852) or Track of the
> Wolf (612-424-2500).
> If I use steel rivets I make them on a forge and for
> copper I will use a
> copper ground wire from my local electric supply co.
> Tell me exactly what you are looking for?
> YMOS
> Ole # 718
> ----------
> From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond"
> <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Subject: MtMan-List: Saddles?
> Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000, 9:47 AM
>
>
> I would like to learn more about the "Spanish"
> saddles used during the fur
> trade. Or, if that knowledge is as hard to find as
> the B of B VIII leads me
> to believe, what is being used by horseman who get
> on the ground today?
>
> Also, what is a good source for period correct
> things like buckles, rivets,
> and buttons?
>
>

__________________________________________________
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Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

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From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Saddles
Date: 25 Mar 2000 03:25:04 -0700

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Thanks to all of you fer the info.on saddles.

Also Crazy wrote:

see ya on the trail Crazy Cyot=20

I would like that.

WY



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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<P>Thanks to all of you fer the info.on saddles.</P>
<P>Also Crazy wrote:</P>
<P>see ya on the trail Crazy Cyot </P>
<P>I would like that.</P>
<P>WY</P>
<P></P></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles?
Date: 25 Mar 2000 20:27:05 -0700

Lynn,
Man Made Mobile is a great report on the subject, but like many other's it
doesn't go far enough in what you and I are concerned with. I have read
parts of it over and over to make sure of what I am reading. I have also
haunted many a Museum for samples. But this list is not the place that I
want to use to impart the information. I will try to get after it ASAP.
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------
>From: Lynn Kirby <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles?
>Date: Sat, Mar 25, 2000, 1:54 PM
>

>I'm also interested in any information you may have
>dealing with period saddles. I'm currently attempting
>to build one after having located a spanish-style
>tree.
>I'v read "Man Made Mobile" and "Saddles"and am still
>looking for a little more detail. Mostly concerning
>the rigging and weather or not any type of ground seat
>was used. Any infirmation would be greatly appreciated
>.  Thank You    Lynn
>                Stuck in Arizona
>
>--- "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]> wrote:
>> Wynn,
>> I have done research on period saddles for about 15
>> years, and soon plan to
>> write down what I know for the T&L. The best source
>> I know of for period
>> sadles is = Bison Saddlery in Helena , MT
>> 406-449-7231
>> I am dubious about the "Hybrid Spanish" Saddle, I
>> would get a copy of Man
>> Made Mobile from your local Library and check out
>> the letters writen by
>> Thorten Grimsley.
>> About Buckles, rivets and buttons that is a wide
>> subject,
>> For Iron buckles I blacksmith my own, for brass and
>> peweter I usuly look at
>> sources like
>> Jas Townsend & Son (219-594-5852) or Track of the
>> Wolf (612-424-2500).
>> If I use steel rivets I make them on a forge and for
>> copper I will use a
>> copper ground wire from my local electric supply co.
>> Tell me exactly what you are looking for?
>> YMOS
>> Ole # 718
>> ----------
>> From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond"
>> <[e-mail]>
>> To: <[e-mail]>
>> Subject: MtMan-List: Saddles?
>> Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000, 9:47 AM
>>
>>
>> I would like to learn more about the "Spanish"
>> saddles used during the fur
>> trade. Or, if that knowledge is as hard to find as
>> the B of B VIII leads me
>> to believe, what is being used by horseman who get
>> on the ground today?
>>
>> Also, what is a good source for period correct
>> things like buckles, rivets,
>> and buttons?
>>
>>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
>http://im.yahoo.com
>
>----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blue Willow Ware?
Date: 25 Mar 2000 12:12:24 -0500

ole---
its similar to flow blue  is the best i can describe but it has a
specific pattern if i am not mistaken---one of the other experts in the
matter might be able to help you more on the subject---

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blue Willow Ware?
Date: 25 Mar 2000 23:31:55 EST

Hello in the camp
If ya be a wantin to look at some Blue Willow Ware Ole go to Ebay and type in
Blue Willow they have quit a bit of it. I don't know how much the pattern has
changed over the years ain't my field.
                                     Crazy Cyot

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Wall Tent For Sale
Date: 25 Mar 2000 23:50:54 -0500

Ok... I still have the wall tent for sale.  First of May, wife and I are
moving to Alderson, W Va, and I sure don't want to lug this with me since I
got a new Marquee....

3 years old... Panther Primitive 12x14 wall tent. 5 foot side walls. If you
live in Florida and want to come get it, I'll throw in all of the poles too.
Sorry, but I need the stakes for my new tent. Its got 10" sod cloth built
in.  Sorry, but no floor. It gave up the ghost. Tent is made of 10.38 oz
marine boatshrunk canvas.  I'll let it go for $350.

If interested, private me at [e-mail]

Ad Miller


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Crooked Hand" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wall Tent For Sale
Date: 26 Mar 2000 00:24:28 -0500

Tis my dream tent, but alas.. the IRS owns me til proolly july! sheesh!  I
really wanted to buy that thing!

how's my buddy doin. adn the mouse too?
me
----- Original Message -----
<[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2000 11:50 PM


> Ok... I still have the wall tent for sale.  First of May, wife and I are
> moving to Alderson, W Va, and I sure don't want to lug this with me since
I
> got a new Marquee....
>
> 3 years old... Panther Primitive 12x14 wall tent. 5 foot side walls. If
you
> live in Florida and want to come get it, I'll throw in all of the poles
too.
> Sorry, but I need the stakes for my new tent. Its got 10" sod cloth built
> in.  Sorry, but no floor. It gave up the ghost. Tent is made of 10.38 oz
> marine boatshrunk canvas.  I'll let it go for $350.
>
> If interested, private me at [e-mail]
>
> Ad Miller
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blue Willow Ware?
Date: 26 Mar 2000 07:46:16 -0700

Crazy,
Thanks, missed you at camp, had a great time.
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------
>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blue Willow Ware?
>Date: Sat, Mar 25, 2000, 9:31 PM
>

>Hello in the camp
>If ya be a wantin to look at some Blue Willow Ware Ole go to Ebay and type in
>Blue Willow they have quit a bit of it. I don't know how much the pattern has
>changed over the years ain't my field.
>                                     Crazy Cyot
>
>----------------------
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>

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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blue Willow Ware?
Date: 26 Mar 2000 07:47:44 -0700

Hawk,
Thanks,
Ole
----------
>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blue Willow Ware?
>Date: Sat, Mar 25, 2000, 10:12 AM
>

>ole---
>its similar to flow blue  is the best i can describe but it has a
>specific pattern if i am not mistaken---one of the other experts in the
>matter might be able to help you more on the subject---
>
>    "HAWK"
>Michael Pierce
>854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
>Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
>e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
>site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
>
>________________________________________________________________
>YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
>Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
>Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
>----------------------
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>

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From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: What's all this hello stuff anyway?
Date: 26 Mar 2000 09:51:30 -0000

When I started attending rendezvous, I was quick to pick up the etiquette of
calling "Hello the Camp" when I first approached another camp.  I maintained
this courtesy for a long time until I discovered that the word 'hello' is an
anachronism.
http://www.telect.com/corporat/diduknow.cfm
says "Alexander Graham Bell originally wanted the greeting for the telephone
to be "Ahoy" but Thomas Edison voted for "Hello," a word he coined in 1877."
http://intertique.com/little%20known%20facts.htm
says "Edison popularized the use of word "hello" as a greeting to answer the
telephone. Probably a corruption of an early word "haloo," a shout at a
distance, "hello" doesn't even appear in the English language until the
1870s. "
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/6013/ff.html
says "Alexander Graham Bell suggested "Ahoy" as the routing telephone
greeting. It was changed to "hello" after Thomas Edison insisted on it."

So the proper announcement would be "Hollo" or hallo or Hallo (pronounced
like hollow) or haloo (pronounced hall ouu)

Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner


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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles?
Date: 26 Mar 2000 09:51:22 -0800

Ole,
Perhaps you (or someone) might know....How far back does the "macate" rein
date back?  Some have bastardized and Anglicized the name to 'MacCarty'
today.  I am told by an experienced trainer that it is "quite old" but he
can't put a rough date on it.

John Funk


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2000 7:27 PM


> Lynn,
> Man Made Mobile is a great report on the subject, but like many other's it
> doesn't go far enough in what you and I are concerned with. I have read
> parts of it over and over to make sure of what I am reading. I have also
> haunted many a Museum for samples. But this list is not the place that I
> want to use to impart the information. I will try to get after it ASAP.
> YMOS
> Ole # 718
> ----------
> >From: Lynn Kirby <[e-mail]>
> >To: [e-mail]
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles?
> >Date: Sat, Mar 25, 2000, 1:54 PM
> >
>
> >I'm also interested in any information you may have
> >dealing with period saddles. I'm currently attempting
> >to build one after having located a spanish-style
> >tree.
> >I'v read "Man Made Mobile" and "Saddles"and am still
> >looking for a little more detail. Mostly concerning
> >the rigging and weather or not any type of ground seat
> >was used. Any infirmation would be greatly appreciated
> >.  Thank You    Lynn
> >                Stuck in Arizona
> >
> >--- "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]> wrote:
> >> Wynn,
> >> I have done research on period saddles for about 15
> >> years, and soon plan to
> >> write down what I know for the T&L. The best source
> >> I know of for period
> >> sadles is = Bison Saddlery in Helena , MT
> >> 406-449-7231
> >> I am dubious about the "Hybrid Spanish" Saddle, I
> >> would get a copy of Man
> >> Made Mobile from your local Library and check out
> >> the letters writen by
> >> Thorten Grimsley.
> >> About Buckles, rivets and buttons that is a wide
> >> subject,
> >> For Iron buckles I blacksmith my own, for brass and
> >> peweter I usuly look at
> >> sources like
> >> Jas Townsend & Son (219-594-5852) or Track of the
> >> Wolf (612-424-2500).
> >> If I use steel rivets I make them on a forge and for
> >> copper I will use a
> >> copper ground wire from my local electric supply co.
> >> Tell me exactly what you are looking for?
> >> YMOS
> >> Ole # 718
> >> ----------
> >> From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond"
> >> <[e-mail]>
> >> To: <[e-mail]>
> >> Subject: MtMan-List: Saddles?
> >> Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000, 9:47 AM
> >>
> >>
> >> I would like to learn more about the "Spanish"
> >> saddles used during the fur
> >> trade. Or, if that knowledge is as hard to find as
> >> the B of B VIII leads me
> >> to believe, what is being used by horseman who get
> >> on the ground today?
> >>
> >> Also, what is a good source for period correct
> >> things like buckles, rivets,
> >> and buttons?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do You Yahoo!?
> >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> >http://im.yahoo.com
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles?
Date: 26 Mar 2000 17:40:44 -0700

John,
Sorry, not that one.
Ole # 718
----------
>From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles?
>Date: Sun, Mar 26, 2000, 10:51 AM
>

>Ole,
>Perhaps you (or someone) might know....How far back does the "macate" rein
>date back?  Some have bastardized and Anglicized the name to 'MacCarty'
>today.  I am told by an experienced trainer that it is "quite old" but he
>can't put a rough date on it.
>
>John Funk
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Ole B. Jensen <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2000 7:27 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles?
>
>
>> Lynn,
>> Man Made Mobile is a great report on the subject, but like many other's it
>> doesn't go far enough in what you and I are concerned with. I have read
>> parts of it over and over to make sure of what I am reading. I have also
>> haunted many a Museum for samples. But this list is not the place that I
>> want to use to impart the information. I will try to get after it ASAP.
>> YMOS
>> Ole # 718
>> ----------
>> >From: Lynn Kirby <[e-mail]>
>> >To: [e-mail]
>> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles?
>> >Date: Sat, Mar 25, 2000, 1:54 PM
>> >
>>
>> >I'm also interested in any information you may have
>> >dealing with period saddles. I'm currently attempting
>> >to build one after having located a spanish-style
>> >tree.
>> >I'v read "Man Made Mobile" and "Saddles"and am still
>> >looking for a little more detail. Mostly concerning
>> >the rigging and weather or not any type of ground seat
>> >was used. Any infirmation would be greatly appreciated
>> >.  Thank You    Lynn
>> >                Stuck in Arizona
>> >
>> >--- "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]> wrote:
>> >> Wynn,
>> >> I have done research on period saddles for about 15
>> >> years, and soon plan to
>> >> write down what I know for the T&L. The best source
>> >> I know of for period
>> >> sadles is = Bison Saddlery in Helena , MT
>> >> 406-449-7231
>> >> I am dubious about the "Hybrid Spanish" Saddle, I
>> >> would get a copy of Man
>> >> Made Mobile from your local Library and check out
>> >> the letters writen by
>> >> Thorten Grimsley.
>> >> About Buckles, rivets and buttons that is a wide
>> >> subject,
>> >> For Iron buckles I blacksmith my own, for brass and
>> >> peweter I usuly look at
>> >> sources like
>> >> Jas Townsend & Son (219-594-5852) or Track of the
>> >> Wolf (612-424-2500).
>> >> If I use steel rivets I make them on a forge and for
>> >> copper I will use a
>> >> copper ground wire from my local electric supply co.
>> >> Tell me exactly what you are looking for?
>> >> YMOS
>> >> Ole # 718
>> >> ----------
>> >> From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond"
>> >> <[e-mail]>
>> >> To: <[e-mail]>
>> >> Subject: MtMan-List: Saddles?
>> >> Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000, 9:47 AM
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I would like to learn more about the "Spanish"
>> >> saddles used during the fur
>> >> trade. Or, if that knowledge is as hard to find as
>> >> the B of B VIII leads me
>> >> to believe, what is being used by horseman who get
>> >> on the ground today?
>> >>
>> >> Also, what is a good source for period correct
>> >> things like buckles, rivets,
>> >> and buttons?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >__________________________________________________
>> >Do You Yahoo!?
>> >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
>> >http://im.yahoo.com
>> >
>> >----------------------
>> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>> >
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>
>----------------------
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>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What's all this hello stuff anyway?
Date: 26 Mar 2000 23:30:14 EST

 One question what's a telephone never heard of such a thing in the Rockies.
Nice peace of info never realized that hello was such a modern word. But I
don't think I stop using the word because of it. People have a hard enough
time understanding me as it is. I wonder how old good by is?
                                               Crazy Cyot

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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What's all this hello stuff anyway?
Date: 27 Mar 2000 06:16:31 -0600

Crazy
The term good-by has the following definition in Noah Webster's 1828 =
Dictionary, making it "period".  Lord knows how old the term is.

By or bye
In the common phrase, good-bye, bye signifies passing, going.  The =
phrase signifies, a good going, a prosperous passage, and it is =
precisely equivalent to farewell.

YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff

----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2000 10:30 PM


> One question what's a telephone never heard of such a thing in the =
Rockies.=20
> Nice peace of info never realized that hello was such a modern word. =
But I=20
> don't think I stop using the word because of it. People have a hard =
enough=20
> time understanding me as it is. I wonder how old good by is?
>                                                Crazy Cyot
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Bob Schmidt (aka Saddles)
Date: 27 Mar 2000 09:05:08 -0500

Bob Schmidt's email address is [e-mail].  His wife answers
emails and processes all orders.  A very sweet lady.

Bob's also an excellent footwear maker.  I wear a pair of straight-last
brogans he made me 2 years ago.   Very comfy.

Cheers,
HBC


>> Hello in the camp
>> Wynn I ride one of Bob Schmidt saddles of Historical Enterprises. He makes
>a
>> good saddle for less money then you can buy any where. He is also an AMM
>> member his address is 1100 N.E. Hamilton Hgts. Road Corvallis,  Mt 59828
>> phone number 406-9614243.
>>                                            see ya on the trail
>>                                              Crazy Cyot
>>

**********************************
Henry B. Crawford
Curator of History
Museum of Texas Tech University
Box 43191
Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
[e-mail]
806/742-2442  FAX [phone]
Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
***  Living History . . . Because It's There  ***



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From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Bob Schmidt (off topic)
Date: 27 Mar 2000 08:42:03 PST


For those interested, Bob Schmidt will be at Ft Washita here in southern
Oklahoma through April 2nd, with some tack, boots, and shoes from his store,
Historical Enterprises.  It is a rare opportunity, for those that don't
venture as far as the Rocky's to view his wares.  I own three of his
saddles, and ride them for every day use, not just for historical events,
and they are exceptional pieces of equipment that I can reccomend without
reservation.
I hope to see anyone there that is interested in coming, myself and Bob will
be found in horsecamp.
As a sidenote; there will be a pack-rig by Historical Enterprises, given
away as a prize for most authentic horsecamp.

Cliff Tiffie
PO Box 5089
Durant, OK
74702
580-924-4187
---------------------
Aux Aliments de Pays!

______________________________________________________
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From: "Robert Thomson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fort Union Symposium
Date: 27 Mar 2000 09:44:48 PST

Greetings all,

I'm new to the list, but wanted to drop a note in for those that might not
know.  Fort Union Trading Post NHS in beautiful western North Dakota is
hosting a fur trade history symposium this September.  You can view our web
site for the symposium at http:www.dia.net/~furtrade

Hope to some of ya'll there!!

Robert Thomson
AMF Co.
Fort Union
______________________________________________________
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From: "Robert Thomson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What's all this hello stuff anyway?
Date: 27 Mar 2000 09:47:56 PST

Not sure, but I think "Good-bye" is descended from the Medievel "God be with
you".  I'm probably wrong, though.

Robert Thomson
AMF Co.
Fort Union

-----------Original------
The term good-by has the following definition in Noah Webster's 1828
Dictionary, making it "period".  Lord knows how old the term is.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Bonnie Lake Canoe trek
Date: 27 Mar 2000 10:06:25 -0800

Brothers and friends,

The NW Party, NW Brigade hosted a fine little canoe run up Bonnie Lake in E
Central WA. this past weekend. Along with nice weather (for a change, snowed
last year) and great scenery I met a couple "soldiers" from the local
"Fort". Gary and Bryan were quit interested in what we do and Gary gave me
his address so we might correspond. I can't for the life of me find that
piece of paper. If your out there Gary, would you contact me?

Bonnie Lake is about 5 miles long and runs through a deep basalt canyon.
There is a nice island outcrop of granite and shale about half way up the
lake that provides a safe camping place. We made camp on the island the
first night and on Sat. morning took an exploration trip to the upper end of
the lake. Along with lots of wild life we were treated to many water falls
from the snow runoff coming down over the several "bench's" that make up the
sides of the canyon. At the upper end of the lake where the feeder stream
comes in is a beautiful grassy meadow in sparse pines that would afford a
nice camp site from which to work the upper canyon and surrounding hills for
game. There is little beaver sign but much sign of muskrats. I walked up the
little valley a ways to scout and found no sign of any other humans, Indian
or white. There was some sign of game but not a lot.

Crawdad and I returned to our island camp around mid day and dined on cold
elk roast cuts. We visited with the other temporary inhabitants of the
island Sat. afternoon. We cooked our dinner listening to several turkey
gobblers sounding off at evening. Waking up to more sounds of the gobblers
up on the east ridge calling out good morning and the many geese, ducks and
sand hill cranes echoing through the canyon, we prepared a leisure breakfast
of corn meal mush and bacon to get us on our way. We headed down lake on
Sunday late morning paddling into a moderate breeze.  I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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From: "Robert Thomson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fort Union Symposium
Date: 27 Mar 2000 11:25:18 PST

That web address should be:

http://www.dia.net/~furtrade

R.T.
AMF Co
______________________________________________________
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bonnie Lake Canoe trek
Date: 27 Mar 2000 11:59:43 -0800

Friends,

My appologies, but I think my old brain has gotten the names of the two
young men we talked to on our Lake Trip wrong. In any case I would like to
hear from them. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Red Lodge Rendezvous
Date: 27 Mar 2000 17:28:57 EST

Hey Walt,

Does Jerry Farenthold still live in Red Lodge, he was at one time really
pushing their rendezvous. Haven't seen him for at least 8-10 years, when =
on a
canoe trip - hell of a good man and period cook.

Later

Concho.

____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm=
ail.netscape.com.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Dogs & mountain lions]
Date: 27 Mar 2000 17:38:11 EST

Buck Conner <[e-mail]> wrote:

This past year where I live now we have seen two lions in our back yard, =
acre
lots at the edge of the foothills over looking Denver. One was trying to =
catch
a red fox that was passing through. The more ground that is put into hous=
ing
areas the more the problem will continue.......
Hey,
I have seen mountain lions the last three trips to Colorado (seems no big=
 deal
out there). Two weeks ago I was returning home one evening and had a half=

grown cat run across the country road I live on, got my attention for liv=
ing
in central Pennsylvania. Talked to several of the old locals and they had=
 to
think a spell to remember when the last time they heard or had seen one, =
even
checked the local library (newspapers), seems last report was in the 1930=
's
for this area, interesting !!!

Later,

Concho.

____________________________________________________________________
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ail.netscape.com.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Robert Thomson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fort Union Muzzle Loaders Association
Date: 27 Mar 2000 14:47:15 PST

Salutations,

The Fort Union Muzzle Loaders Association now has a web site.  You can see
it at http://www.geocities.com/fumla

The site is new and more will be added over the coming weeks.



"Thanks to kind Providence, here I am again at good old Fort Union"
Charles Larpenteur, 1838

----
Robert Thomson
AMF Co
Fort Union

______________________________________________________
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What's all this hello stuff anyway?
Date: 27 Mar 2000 19:35:24 EST

After Hugh Glass' famous encounter with his grizzly bear he is credited with
the following when he approached Fort Kiowa:

"Hallo Bill, thought I was gone under didn't you?  Hand over my horse and
fixens, I aqian't dead by a cussed sight."

HUGH GLASS, by Bruce Bradley (Monarch Press, California) has received fine
reviews.  I didn't realize he was kidnapped by pirates.  Should be good
reading.

Laura Glise
[e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: TexasBluBoy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What's all this hello stuff anyway?
Date: 25 Mar 2000 18:40:10 -0600


--------------CD1973ABC0A59A8EC72E6113
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Laura: I read Hugh Glass about 10 years ago this was one of the best
books that I have ever read. Everytime you thought ol Hugh was out of
the woods, he was back in trouble again. But, he finally got his gun
back, this is the book where I read that they didn't travel with dogs
because they may attract attention. Later.

                                                            Sincerely,
                                        Daniel"TexasBluBoy"Kimball

--------------CD1973ABC0A59A8EC72E6113
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<i><font face="Book Antiqua">Laura: I read Hugh Glass about 10 years ago
this was one of the best books that I have ever read. Everytime you thought
ol Hugh was out of the woods, he was back in trouble again. But, he finally
got his gun back, this is the book where I read that they didn't travel
with dogs because they may attract attention. Later.</font></i><i><font face="Book Antiqua"></font></i>
<p><i><font face="Book Antiqua">
Sincerely,</font></i>
<br><i><font face="Book Antiqua">
Daniel"TexasBluBoy"Kimball</font></i></html>

--------------CD1973ABC0A59A8EC72E6113--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver Hats
Date: 27 Mar 2000 19:48:41 EST

I submit the following from "Firearms, Traps & Tools of the Mountain Men" by
Carl P. Russell -- (If I had to limit my library to three books they would be
Russell's "Journal of a Trapper," Gowans, "Rocky Mountain Rendezvous," and
the above.

"The beaver pelt as it came from the trader was a rough, greasy skin covered
with coarse brown hair under which was the fine rich fur or wool.  The first
step in hatmaking was to shave both hair and wool from the skin.  The bare
skin was then sold to a maker of glue, and the wool and hair were separated
by a blowing process.  Only the wool found use in hatmaking.  The soft, loose
fur was applied in small quantities to a perforated copper revolving cone
within which was a suction device that pulled the fur against the cone.  A
spray of hot water turned upon the fur-covered cone, together with
manipulation of the fur with the hands, started the felting process.
Repeatedly fur was added, and the manipulation continued until the felt
became rough in texture.  Then it was removed as a hood from the cone and
placed in a mold where it was worked into the desired shape.  While it was
still soft and warm, shellac was forced into it from the inside.

Fine fur was then applied to the outside of the shaped hat.  With the aid of
hot water and careful handwork the outer surface was made to appear covered
with a growth of fur.  The final step in making the dress hat was to give it
a high gloss and embellish it with a band and lining. By means of revolving
block and the application of brushes, irons, sandpaper, and velvet, a finish
as bright as that of silk was obtained.  Because of its long, velvety "pile"
or fur, the beaver was characterized by an exquisite beauty that never
distinguished the silk hat.

Respectfully submitted,
Laura Glise
[e-mail]

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What's all this hello stuff anyway?
Date: 27 Mar 2000 19:51:17 EST

So, how did he get captured by pirates?

I hear the bluebonnets are now appearing in Texas.  Have I written you
before, or just meant to?  I put your name in my address book after you
introduced yourself to the list and made your comment about the "Dutch Ovens"
which I applauded.  I have just finished moving and I forget what I have
done, what I have left undone, and what I meant to do.

Laura Glise
[e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What's all this hello stuff anyway?
Date: 27 Mar 2000 19:01:01 -0600

Webster's 1828 dictionary had the following entries:

SOHO, exclam.  A word used in calling from a distant place; a sportman's =
halloo.

HOL'LO, v.i.  To call out or exclaim.  [See Halloo.]

HAL'LOO, v.i.  To cry out; to exclaim with a loud voice; to call to by =
name, or by the word halloo.
 Country folks hallooed and hooted after me.

HAL'LOO, v.t.  To encourage with shouts.
 Old John hallooes his hounds again.
1. To chase with shouts.
2.  To call or shout to.
[This verb is regular, and pronounced with the accent on the first =
syllable.]

HALLOO', an exclamation, used as a call to invite attention.

HAL'LOOING, ppr.  Crying out; as a noun, a loud outcry.

ALLOO', v.t. or i.  To incite dogs by a call.
[See the correct word, Halloo.]

----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2000 6:35 PM


> After Hugh Glass' famous encounter with his grizzly bear he is =
credited with=20
> the following when he approached Fort Kiowa:
>=20
> "Hallo Bill, thought I was gone under didn't you?  Hand over my horse =
and=20
> fixens, I aqian't dead by a cussed sight."
>=20
> HUGH GLASS, by Bruce Bradley (Monarch Press, California) has received =
fine=20
> reviews.  I didn't realize he was kidnapped by pirates.  Should be =
good=20
> reading.
>=20
> Laura Glise
> [e-mail]
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Red Lodge Rendezvous
Date: 27 Mar 2000 19:15:21 -0700

Hi Concho,
Yes Jerry is still in Red Lodge.    The Red Lodge Mountain Man Rendezvous is
going strong.  It got so big that we started a Quiet Camp at the mouth of
the Clarks Fork of the Yellowstone River near Laurel.  From July 19-24. in
order to do our skill exchanges without conflicting with the Red Lodge
Mountain Man Rendezvous which starts about the 22 of July each year and runs
until the first of August or so.  If you would like to get in touch with him
he is in the phone book.  Spring is here.  I have the fever bad.

Walt
Park City, Montana




Hey Walt,

Does Jerry Farenthold still live in Red Lodge, he was at one time really
pushing their rendezvous. Haven't seen him for at least 8-10 years, when on
a
canoe trip - hell of a good man and period cook.

Later Concho.





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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: GOOD BYE, HELLO
Date: 27 Mar 2000 22:39:44 -0500 (EST)

no doubt preceded mtman period by many centuries -  "GOD Be with YE".
could HELLO be a combination of HAIL and HO both used separately in the
1611 KJV Bible as introductory greetings?  Hail the camp?  Ho the camp?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Michigan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What's all this hello stuff anyway?
Date: 27 Mar 2000 20:40:20 -0700

comment about the "Dutch Ovens"
> which I applauded.  > Laura Glise
> [e-mail]

Hello Laura, I see listed in the 1836 & 1837 Rendezvous supply list Fine
Flour.  Can you tell me what fine flour is used for?
Walt
Park City, Montana


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From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: OFF TOPIC - GOLIAD
Date: 27 Mar 2000 23:06:23 -0500 (EST)

One of the main reasons why ALL Americans should remember what happened
on Palm Sunday, March 27th, 1836 are the modern-day offspring of Santa
Anna (the Mexican Drug Mafia).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Michigan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GOOD BYE, HELLO
Date: 27 Mar 2000 22:38:23 -0800

If anyone has access to an Oxford English Dictionary, it will give the
entire and definitive word on any word you want.
-----Original Message-----


no doubt preceded mtman period by many centuries -  "GOD Be with YE".
could HELLO be a combination of HAIL and HO both used separately in the
1611 KJV Bible as introductory greetings?  Hail the camp?  Ho the camp?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Michigan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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From: "Susan Gilbert" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Need advice on new gun
Date: 27 Mar 2000 23:46:13 -0600 (CST)

Greetings,
My husband just bought a 50 cal. percussion Hawkin from DGW.  It arrived
with an adjustable rear sight. He is concerned that this is not period and
wonders if he should replace it. And if so, with what?
Also, we cracked the ramrod and need to replace it.  How does one remove
the ferrules on the tips so they can be attached to the replacement?  The gal
we talked to when we ordered them was not sure.

thanks for any help you can give us,
Sue Gilbert
6 Beaver Camp


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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need advice on new gun
Date: 27 Mar 2000 22:27:38 -0800

Sue,

I and many experienced ml shooters will council you to remove the adjustable
sight and replace it with a fixed open sight. Once it is adjusted to where
the gun shoots with it's best load, it need never be messed with again. It
will not move either and thus will not change the point of impact at an
awkward moment.

The ferrules on the ram rod should have been "pinned" with  brass or copper
wire but were probably just glued on with something like epoxy. Very careful
heating of the metal over a candle  will usually loosen them regardless of
how they were glued. If they have been pinned then you will have to punch
the old pin out to pull the ferrule off.

Once replaced on a new rod, a small hole should be drilled through ferrule
and rod and a pin of that size pushed through and peened into place along
with the new glue which can be epoxy or any water proof glue.

It is a good idea to pick very straight grain wood, preferably hickory as a
ram rod material. It can be soaked in kerosene for a month and then sealed
with linseed oil. This will make the rod stronger and more flexible and less
likely to break again. Straight grain is the most important though. Some
folks like metal rods or fiber glass rods, even synthetic rods but if your
husband is concerned with authenticity, wood is the only choice. Good luck
and feel free to ask questions. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: apple pie recipes
Date: 28 Mar 2000 02:15:31 EST

Hello the list,
    Its been  awhile since I last chimed in so I figured I'd better come out
of hibernation.   Just got done watching a video done by a gent named Mark
Baker. It was an instructional/informational video on the eastern long hunter
circa 1760-1780-ish.  If you havent seen these tapes, they are worth your
time.   he is a history professor and has done incredible amounts of
research.   any ways enough of the commercials..... the reason I'm writing is
that my buddy mentioned that he wanted to make some "Apple Pie" but couldn't
find a recipe.   I remember many moons ago I saw several recipes come across
the list.  could you "chefs" run those recipes again?  Thanks in advance for
your help.

Wade "Sleeps Loudly" Smith
Meridian, ID

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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: apple pie
Date: 28 Mar 2000 06:11:57 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BF987C.8564B6C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable





This is a tasty recipe that figures out to be about 7% alcohol, so it is =
OK to drink by the mug full.  Some recipes include everclear & such, and =
have LOTS more alcohol and will get you plenty drunk before you know it. =
 Crevat Emptor


Apple Pie

Half Gallon
1/2 gallon unfiltered apple cider or apple juice
1     cup 80 proof vodka
1/2 cup brandy or spiced rum
1     large or 2 small cinnamon sticks
10  whole cloves

Drink 1&1/2 cups apple juice.
Add  all other ingredients to remaining juice and refrigerate one week =
minimum.  Longer is better.  Weeks are good.
Serve chilled or warmed as a toddy

For one gallon double all ingredients.

For Five gallons:
4   gallons cider or apple juice
2 &1/2 litres vodka
1    litre brandy or rum
10  large or 20 small cinnamon sticks
100 whole cloves

To speed the ageing process put the spices in a sauce pan with some of =
the apple juice.  Raise to a boil and simmer 30 minutes.  Mix with =
remaining ingredients.

------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BF987C.8564B6C0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT size=3D3>This is a tasty recipe=20
that figures out to be about 7% alcohol, so it is OK to drink by =
the mug=20
full.  Some recipes include everclear & such, and have LOTS =
more=20
alcohol and will get you plenty drunk before you know it.  Crevat=20
Emptor</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Apple Pie</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Half Gallon</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>1/2 gallon unfiltered apple cider or apple juice</DIV>
<DIV>1     cup 80 proof vodka</DIV>
<DIV>1/2 cup brandy or spiced rum</DIV>
<DIV>1     large or 2 small cinnamon sticks</DIV>
<DIV>10  whole cloves</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Drink 1&1/2 cups apple juice.</DIV>
<DIV>Add  all other ingredients to remaining juice and refrigerate =
one week=20
minimum.  Longer is better.  Weeks are good.</DIV>
<DIV>Serve chilled or warmed as a toddy</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>For one gallon<FONT size=3D3> double all ingredients.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>For Five gallons:</DIV>
<DIV>4   gallons cider or apple juice</DIV>
<DIV>2 &1/2 litres vodka</DIV>
<DIV>1    litre brandy or rum</DIV>
<DIV>10  large or 20 small cinnamon sticks</DIV>
<DIV>100 whole cloves</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>To speed the ageing process put the spices in a sauce pan with some =
of the=20
apple juice.  Raise to a boil and simmer 30 minutes.  Mix with =

remaining ingredients.</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BF987C.8564B6C0--


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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver Hats
Date: 28 Mar 2000 07:15:49 -0600


-----Original Message-----


I wonder at what time period, and where the method he describes in FT&T of
hat making was used? The method I described which was quite different, I
believe would have been used in colonial America, mid 18th century or
thereabouts.

northwoods



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From: "Susan Gilbert" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Apple Pie Recipe
Date: 28 Mar 2000 07:32:58 -0600 (CST)

Morning,
Here is the original post, just as I saved it.  It's a good recipe, I've made it in
apple and cherry.  Both were very popular at our Christmas gathering.

Sue Gilbert
6 Beaver Camp
=========================================================
>Klahowya Tillicum,
>
>This recipe came to me from Barefoot Woman, Crazy George Passon's
wife
>(bourgeois of the Department of the Columbia party):
>
>1 gallon Apple Cider
>1 Cup Brown Sugar
>1 Cup Honey
>5 Cinnamon Sticks
>7 Whole Cloves
>Juice of 1/2 lemon
>
>Simmer all for 45 minutes.  Will reduce slightly.
>
>Strain out spices.
>
>Let cool to room temperature.
>
>Add 1 fifth Everclear.
>
>The longer it sets, the smoother it gets.  Don't never go bad.
>
>Now, I've done this with high-proof rum and vodka, when Everclear not
>available.  Also real good.  And I've done it with cherry, pear, and
>peach juice, as well.  I don't recommend the cherry, tasted like cough
>syrup to me, but it went over real well at camp.  I like to add Allspice
>to mine, since I'm partial to it.
>
>Good luck and have fun!  :-)
>
>YMDS,
>-Tassee
>



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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Apple Pie Recipe
Date: 28 Mar 2000 08:35:40 -0500

I can't help myself... SOrry...
Simple Apple Pie.
Suck on a apple sour ball while drinking a kettle of Rum..
AS I said, sorry..<G>
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Apple Pie Recipe
Date: 28 Mar 2000 08:35:46 -0500

BE WARNED,

I made this recipe two years ago and took it to a rendezvous and it was a hit.  I then took it to a couple picnics and it was also a hit. I have also taken it to the hunting get to-gethers and ditto it was a hit.

NOW I AM NOT ALLOWED IN ANY RENDEZVOUS OR CAMPS UNLESS I BRING MY APPLEPIE.

FVR







[e-mail] wrote:
> Morning,Here is the original post, just as I saved it.  It's a good recipe, I've made it in
apple and cherry.  Both were very popular at our Christmas gathering.

Sue Gilbert
6 Beaver Camp
=========================================================
>Klahowya Tillicum,
>
>This recipe came to me from Barefoot Woman, Crazy George Passon's
wife
>(bourgeois of the Department of the Columbia party):
>
>1 gallon Apple Cider
>1 Cup Brown Sugar
>1 Cup Honey
>5 Cinnamon Sticks
>7 Whole Cloves
>Juice of 1/2 lemon
>
>Simmer all for 45 minutes.  Will reduce slightly.
>
>Strain out spices.
>
>Let cool to room temperature.
>
>Add 1 fifth Everclear.
>
>The longer it sets, the smoother it gets.  Don't never go bad.
>
>Now, I've done this with high-proof rum and vodka, when Everclear not
>available.  Also real good.  And I've done it with cherry, pear, and
>peach juice, as well.  I don't recommend the cherry, tasted like cough
>syrup to me, but it went over real well at camp.  I like to add Allspice
>to mine, since I'm partial to it.
>
>Good luck and have fun!  :-)
>
>YMDS,
>-Tassee
>



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From: "Dennis Earp" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Apple Pie Recipe
Date: 28 Mar 2000 09:58:02 -0500

Sue,

Does it need to be kept refrigerated while it's aging, or can it
be stored at room temperature?

Dennis


>Morning,
>Here is the original post, just as I saved it.  It's a good recipe, I've
made it in
>apple and cherry.  Both were very popular at our Christmas gathering.
>
>Sue Gilbert
>6 Beaver Camp



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need advice on new gun
Date: 28 Mar 2000 08:11:11 -0800

I have taken a piece of PVC, put a plug in one end and shoved anywhere from
1 to a couple dozen ramrod blanks (straight grain dowels) in there, then
filled it with kerosene, put a plug on the top, and let them soak for as
long as three months, then removed them and let them dry. They still are not
bullet proof, but somewhat improved. It depends on whether you have the time
and desire. You can purchase new ends (they don't cost that much) and make
up several ramrods at one time. That way, when one breaks (and they will)
you have a spare at hand.
-----Original Message-----


>Sue,
>
>I and many experienced ml shooters will council you to remove the
adjustable
>sight and replace it with a fixed open sight. Once it is adjusted to where
>the gun shoots with it's best load, it need never be messed with again. It
>will not move either and thus will not change the point of impact at an
>awkward moment.
>
>The ferrules on the ram rod should have been "pinned" with  brass or copper
>wire but were probably just glued on with something like epoxy. Very
careful
>heating of the metal over a candle  will usually loosen them regardless of
>how they were glued. If they have been pinned then you will have to punch
>the old pin out to pull the ferrule off.
>
>Once replaced on a new rod, a small hole should be drilled through ferrule
>and rod and a pin of that size pushed through and peened into place along
>with the new glue which can be epoxy or any water proof glue.
>
>It is a good idea to pick very straight grain wood, preferably hickory as a
>ram rod material. It can be soaked in kerosene for a month and then sealed
>with linseed oil. This will make the rod stronger and more flexible and
less
>likely to break again. Straight grain is the most important though. Some
>folks like metal rods or fiber glass rods, even synthetic rods but if your
>husband is concerned with authenticity, wood is the only choice. Good luck
>and feel free to ask questions. I remain....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Susan Gilbert" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Apple Pie Recipe
Date: 28 Mar 2000 10:12:15 -0600 (CST)

Dennis,

I put the mixture in a clean crock with one of those rubber ring and wire
clamp on lids and stored it on the shelves with the canning stuff in the
basement.  It is cool down there but not fridge cold, and it was fine.  There
seems to be enough alcohol to preserve it.

Sue Gilbert
6 Beaver Camp



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Apple Pie Recipe
Date: 28 Mar 2000 11:18:04 -0500

I make two kinds, one with alcohol and one without for the kids.  I have found that the mix with alcohol has no problems if kept out of the fridge but the virgin mix must be kept in the ice box or it will mold on top.

FVR





[e-mail] wrote:
> Dennis,
I put the mixture in a clean crock with one of those rubber ring and wire
clamp on lids and stored it on the shelves with the canning stuff in the
basement.  It is cool down there but not fridge cold, and it was fine.  There
seems to be enough alcohol to preserve it.

Sue Gilbert
6 Beaver Camp



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need advice on new gun
Date: 28 Mar 2000 11:05:02 -0600

--=====================_80612519==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The most critical item in making a new ramrod is to work with splits of=20
wood not sawn wood.  By maintaining full length grain through the entire=20
length maximum strength is maintained.  If full length grain is used not=20
nearly so many ramrods will need to be made than if you use pre-made dowel=
=20
rod from sawn stock.

Sharp shards and flakes from knapping musket flints are excellent for=20
scraping and shaping the rough wood.  Sandstone can be used for --- guess=
 what?

Though kerosene is the modern substitute for coal oil which was available=20
in the east in small measure, the below is an old method.  See my posting a=
=20
couple of three Christmases back on the proper uses of linseed oil to avoid=
=20
the problems of modern processing.

Ferrules can be well mounted with sealing wax along with the cross=20
pinning.  Very similar to what used to be called spud cement which can be=20
used similarly.

Ramrods, shovel handles, axe handles, walking sticks, and war clubs all=20
will benefit if you bury them in a large pile of horse manure for 6=20
months.  Adds considerable flex to the finished work.  Be certain the wood=
=20
is well seasoned and ready for final sanding and finishing before you bury=
=20
it.  Then finish it.

John...

At 08:11 AM 3/28/00 -0800, Bill wrote:
>I have taken a piece of PVC, put a plug in one end and shoved anywhere from
>1 to a couple dozen ramrod blanks (straight grain dowels) in there, then
>filled it with kerosene, put a plug on the top, and let them soak for as
>long as three months, then removed them and let them dry. They still are=
 not
>bullet proof, but somewhat improved. It depends on whether you have the=
 time
>and desire. You can purchase new ends (they don't cost that much) and make
>up several ramrods at one time. That way, when one breaks (and they will)
>you have a spare at hand.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Monday, March 27, 2000 10:22 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need advice on new gun
>
>
> >Sue,
> >
> >I and many experienced ml shooters will council you to remove the
>adjustable
> >sight and replace it with a fixed open sight. Once it is adjusted to=
 where
> >the gun shoots with it's best load, it need never be messed with again.=
 It
> >will not move either and thus will not change the point of impact at an
> >awkward moment.
> >
> >The ferrules on the ram rod should have been "pinned" with  brass or=
 copper
> >wire but were probably just glued on with something like epoxy. Very
>careful
> >heating of the metal over a candle  will usually loosen them regardless=
 of
> >how they were glued. If they have been pinned then you will have to punch
> >the old pin out to pull the ferrule off.
> >
> >Once replaced on a new rod, a small hole should be drilled through=
 ferrule
> >and rod and a pin of that size pushed through and peened into place along
> >with the new glue which can be epoxy or any water proof glue.
> >
> >It is a good idea to pick very straight grain wood, preferably hickory as=
 a
> >ram rod material. It can be soaked in kerosene for a month and then=
 sealed
> >with linseed oil. This will make the rod stronger and more flexible and
>less
> >likely to break again. Straight grain is the most important though. Some
> >folks like metal rods or fiber glass rods, even synthetic rods but if=
 your
> >husband is concerned with authenticity, wood is the only choice. Good=
 luck
> >and feel free to ask questions. I remain....
> >
> >YMOS
> >Capt. Lahti



John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
 >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>

--=====================_80612519==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<font size=3D3>The most critical item in making a new ramrod is to work
with splits of wood not sawn wood.  By maintaining full length grain
through the entire length maximum strength is maintained.  If full
length grain is used not nearly so many ramrods will need to be made than
if you use pre-made dowel rod from sawn stock.<br>
<br>
Sharp shards and flakes from knapping musket flints are excellent for
scraping and shaping the rough wood.  Sandstone can be used for ---
guess what?<br>
<br>
Though kerosene is the modern substitute for coal oil which was available
in the east in small measure, the below is an old method.  See my
posting a couple of three Christmases back on the proper uses of linseed
oil to avoid the problems of modern processing.  <br>
<br>
Ferrules can be well mounted with sealing wax along with the cross
pinning.  Very similar to what used to be called spud cement which
can be used similarly.<br>
<br>
Ramrods, shovel handles, axe handles, walking sticks, and war clubs all
will benefit if you bury them in a large pile of horse manure for 6
months.  Adds considerable flex to the finished work.  Be
certain the wood is well seasoned and ready for final sanding and
finishing before you bury it.  Then finish it.<br>
<br>
John...<br>
<br>
At 08:11 AM 3/28/00 -0800, Bill wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=3Dcite cite>I have taken a piece of PVC, put a plug in one
end and shoved anywhere from<br>
1 to a couple dozen ramrod blanks (straight grain dowels) in there,
then<br>
filled it with kerosene, put a plug on the top, and let them soak for
as<br>
long as three months, then removed them and let them dry. They still are
not<br>
bullet proof, but somewhat improved. It depends on whether you have the
time<br>
and desire. You can purchase new ends (they don't cost that much) and
make<br>
up several ramrods at one time. That way, when one breaks (and they
will)<br>
you have a spare at hand.<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
<[e-mail]><br>
<br>
<br>
>Sue,<br>
><br>
>I and many experienced ml shooters will council you to remove
the<br>
adjustable<br>
>sight and replace it with a fixed open sight. Once it is adjusted to
where<br>
>the gun shoots with it's best load, it need never be messed with
again. It<br>
>will not move either and thus will not change the point of impact at
an<br>
>awkward moment.<br>
><br>
>The ferrules on the ram rod should have been "pinned"
with  brass or copper<br>
>wire but were probably just glued on with something like epoxy.
Very<br>
careful<br>
>heating of the metal over a candle  will usually loosen them
regardless of<br>
>how they were glued. If they have been pinned then you will have to
punch<br>
>the old pin out to pull the ferrule off.<br>
><br>
>Once replaced on a new rod, a small hole should be drilled through
ferrule<br>
>and rod and a pin of that size pushed through and peened into place
along<br>
>with the new glue which can be epoxy or any water proof glue.<br>
><br>
>It is a good idea to pick very straight grain wood, preferably
hickory as a<br>
>ram rod material. It can be soaked in kerosene for a month and then
sealed<br>
>with linseed oil. This will make the rod stronger and more flexible
and<br>
less<br>
>likely to break again. Straight grain is the most important though.
Some<br>
>folks like metal rods or fiber glass rods, even synthetic rods but if
your<br>
>husband is concerned with authenticity, wood is the only choice. Good
luck<br>
>and feel free to ask questions. I remain....<br>
><br>
>YMOS<br>
>Capt. Lahti</font></blockquote><br>
<br>
<br>
<div>John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0</div>
<br>
<div>Kramer's Best Antique Improver</div>
<div>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<</div>
<div>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<</div>
<br>
<div><<a href=3D"http://www.kramerize.com/"=
 EUDORA=3DAUTOURL>http://www.kramerize.com/</a>></div>
<br>
<div>mail to: <[e-mail]> </div>
</html>

--=====================_80612519==_.ALT--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: tipi poles
Date: 28 Mar 2000 13:00:16 EST

Ho the List,

It's starting to warm up in the NW and with the sap rising in the lodgepole
pine, it's a good time to go cut a few. I'll pass on a neat trick for those
of you that have a lodge and are interested.
Usually after the poles are cut they are barked in the woods, and if you're
as slow as me, the rest of the day is spent bent over a draw knife....hard
work. Now, I haul the poles home with the bark on, lay em out on the patio,
fire up the water pressure cleaner, and just blow the bark off. The Indians
would be proud! What use to take me about an hour to do a 27' pole, now only
takes about the same to do all 17 poles, and the finished poles are
beautiful. You still have to cut and file the limbs off, and sand the bumps.
I seal my poles with a water seal or whatever to keep em pretty.
The poles cut early in the spring seem to have a harder under wood, just
below the bark, and the high pressure water doesn't cut it unless you get
real close and hold there. Poles cut later in the summer are somewhat softer,
so you have to be a bit more careful...just back off a bit.
Leave your poles as long as you can get away with. The Crow used such long
poles the tipi had the appearance of a huge hourglass. My poles are 27' for a
20' lodge and I carry them on top of a short bed truck. I've not been stopped
by the Man yet, but local laws do apply. I'm working on a boat trailer with a
rack to carry the poles and gear ... it should allow for some long poles, and
I don't have to unload everything when I get home ... may even slip a canoe
it there too!

Ymos,
Steve

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From: Don Neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tipi poles
Date: 28 Mar 2000 13:45:36 -0600

Nice ideal!!!


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From: Don Neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: fur trade museam..
Date: 28 Mar 2000 13:48:34 -0600

I asked several weeks ago about how to get to the museam of fur trade
and had a good response. Since then I lost all memory on my  smokesingle
(computer)  can you please forward new information to me.  Thank you,
Donnie


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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tipi poles
Date: 28 Mar 2000 11:39:09 -0700

Hi Steve, I cut my lodge poles in the spring.  Last year I showed some
others how to use a piece of flint to cut the bark to where I could get a
finger nail or a thumb nail under the bark and pull long strips of bark off.
Takes about 10 minutes for a 27' lodge pole.  Your hands get sticky with sap
but it washes off..  Your right the Crows do like long lodge poles that
extend 10' above.  Are you pitching a Crow Lodge?  I have gone back to
smaller camps myself.  I am getting to old to handle the big stuff.  Now I
am thinking about a 14'.
Walt
Park City, Montana


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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: apple pie recipes
Date: 28 Mar 2000 11:47:28 -0700

Pie,
1=pie crust
6 cups fresh sliced apples (tart)
1/2 tsp cinnamon
1/2 cup brown sugar
1 table spoon butter
1/4 teaspoon salt
1 tablespoon lemmon juice
 Mix all ingridients in bowl and pour into pie crust.
Cover top of pie with criss crossed pcs of dough.
Sprinkle top with a mixture of sugar and cinamon.
Bake in bake oven  at 350 deg for 1 hr to 11/4 hr.
YMOS
Ole # 718

----------
>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: MtMan-List: apple pie recipes
>Date: Tue, Mar 28, 2000, 12:15 AM
>

>Hello the list,
>    Its been  awhile since I last chimed in so I figured I'd better come out
>of hibernation.   Just got done watching a video done by a gent named Mark
>Baker. It was an instructional/informational video on the eastern long hunter
>circa 1760-1780-ish.  If you havent seen these tapes, they are worth your
>time.   he is a history professor and has done incredible amounts of
>research.   any ways enough of the commercials..... the reason I'm writing is
>that my buddy mentioned that he wanted to make some "Apple Pie" but couldn't
>find a recipe.   I remember many moons ago I saw several recipes come across
>the list.  could you "chefs" run those recipes again?  Thanks in advance for
>your help.
>
>Wade "Sleeps Loudly" Smith
>Meridian, ID
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: apple pie recipes
Date: 28 Mar 2000 11:53:13 -0700

Hi, Ole,

A good recipe to use the fine flour found in the 1836-1837 rendezvous
supplies list.
Walt
Park City, Montana


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 11:47 AM


> Pie,
> 1=pie crust
> 6 cups fresh sliced apples (tart)
> 1/2 tsp cinnamon
> 1/2 cup brown sugar
> 1 table spoon butter
> 1/4 teaspoon salt
> 1 tablespoon lemmon juice
>  Mix all ingridients in bowl and pour into pie crust.
> Cover top of pie with criss crossed pcs of dough.
> Sprinkle top with a mixture of sugar and cinamon.
> Bake in bake oven  at 350 deg for 1 hr to 11/4 hr.
> YMOS
> Ole # 718
>
> ----------
> >From: [e-mail]
> >To: [e-mail]
> >Subject: MtMan-List: apple pie recipes
> >Date: Tue, Mar 28, 2000, 12:15 AM
> >
>
> >Hello the list,
> >    Its been  awhile since I last chimed in so I figured I'd better come
out
> >of hibernation.   Just got done watching a video done by a gent named
Mark
> >Baker. It was an instructional/informational video on the eastern long
hunter
> >circa 1760-1780-ish.  If you havent seen these tapes, they are worth your
> >time.   he is a history professor and has done incredible amounts of
> >research.   any ways enough of the commercials..... the reason I'm
writing is
> >that my buddy mentioned that he wanted to make some "Apple Pie" but
couldn't
> >find a recipe.   I remember many moons ago I saw several recipes come
across
> >the list.  could you "chefs" run those recipes again?  Thanks in advance
for
> >your help.
> >
> >Wade "Sleeps Loudly" Smith
> >Meridian, ID
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
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From: Don Neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tipi poles
Date: 28 Mar 2000 14:14:53 -0600

Walt, Where is Park City, Montana. Have a old frind that lives in
Hamoltin. Have not heard from him in years. Donnie


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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tipi poles
Date: 28 Mar 2000 12:14:34 -0700

Hi Don,
Hamilton is in the Bitterroot Valley in south western Montana.  I have a
daughter over there and some good friends who are reenactors as well.

Park City is in south central Montana.  Where Jim Bridger and the other
large body of Mountain Men spent the winter of 1836 and 1835 in a 5 month
long camp called the Rocky Mountain College.  This is also the place where
Capt. Clark and his men built dug out canoes to go down the Yellowstone.
And where John Colter started out becoming the first of the American
Mountain Men.
Walt
Park City, Montana


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 1:14 PM


> Walt, Where is Park City, Montana. Have a old frind that lives in
> Hamoltin. Have not heard from him in years. Donnie
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tipi poles
Date: 28 Mar 2000 14:50:15 EST


In a message dated 3/28/00 10:40:30 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Are you pitching a Crow Lodge?  I have gone back to

smaller camps myself.  I am getting to old to handle the big stuff.  Now I

am thinking about a 14'. >>

Hallo Walt,

No....I've got a Sioux lodge made by Nomadics.....the one on page 6 of the
latest "Tipi Living" magazine. I can still set up the 20 footer by myself in
about an hour... or two hours if I have help....<g> My side kick has a 16'
that's pretty darn small but goes up easy...don't think I'd go smaller than
that. That's one way to get closer to the wimmins though....
Ymos,
Steve

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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tipi poles
Date: 28 Mar 2000 13:00:21 -0700


> Hallo Walt,
>
> No....I've got a Sioux lodge made by Nomadics.....the one on page 6 of the
> latest "Tipi Living" magazine. I can still set up the 20 footer by myself
in
> about an hour... or two hours if I have help....<g> My side kick has a 16'
> that's pretty darn small but goes up easy...don't think I'd go smaller
than
> that. That's one way to get closer to the wimmins though....
> Ymos,
> Steve

I have been using 16s.  Remember you shrink as you get older.  I pitched a
lodge for one of the local museums a few months ago and it was all I could
do to handle the 27' lodge poles.  As a hunting camp 16' are hard to beat.

Nomadics.  I have a 20 year old Nomadics that I still use along with my new
one.
Walt


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tipi poles
Date: 28 Mar 2000 13:10:47 -0700



Bill Cunningham taught me a neat trick years back.  Take your tipi pole, green
or dried harder than flint, no matter; sink it into your local ditch with water
flowing past.  Leave it there overnight.  Next day you can peel it slicker 'n a
gut, just like peelin' a carrot in the kitchen.  It really works.
Rick



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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fur trade museam..
Date: 28 Mar 2000 16:08:41 -0500

Its in Chadron, NE, and there are plenty of signs once you get there... Was
there 2 years ago... WELL worth the trip...

Ad Miller

> I asked several weeks ago about how to get to the museam of fur trade
> and had a good response. Since then I lost all memory on my  smokesingle
> (computer)  can you please forward new information to me.  Thank you,
> Donnie



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From: "Susan Gilbert" <[e-mail]>
Subject:  MtMan-List:Thank you for advice on new gun
Date: 28 Mar 2000 19:51:52 -0600 (CST)


    Thank you all who responded with help on Brian's new gun.   Your
collective  knowledge and experience is a valuable gift to the rest of us.
      We are doing our own research, of course, but...so many books, so
little time.  It is so great to be able to pick the brains of you kind folks when
we get stuck and don't know where to start.

gratefully,

Sue Gilbert
6 Beaver Camp





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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need advice on new gun
Date: 28 Mar 2000 19:34:26 -0700

> THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--MS_Mac_OE_3037116867_55476_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

John,
You forgot one important thing about burrying your ax or tomahawk,
Don't lick your fingers!
Ole # 718
----------


The most critical item in making a new ramrod is to work with splits of woo=
d
not sawn wood.  By maintaining full length grain through the entire length
maximum strength is maintained.  If full length grain is used not nearly so
many ramrods will need to be made than if you use pre-made dowel rod from
sawn stock.

Sharp shards and flakes from knapping musket flints are excellent for
scraping and shaping the rough wood.  Sandstone can be used for --- guess
what?

Though kerosene is the modern substitute for coal oil which was available i=
n
the east in small measure, the below is an old method.  See my posting a
couple of three Christmases back on the proper uses of linseed oil to avoid
the problems of modern processing.

Ferrules can be well mounted with sealing wax along with the cross pinning.=

Very similar to what used to be called spud cement which can be used
similarly.

Ramrods, shovel handles, axe handles, walking sticks, and war clubs all wil=
l
benefit if you bury them in a large pile of horse manure for 6 months.  Add=
s
considerable flex to the finished work.  Be certain the wood is well
seasoned and ready for final sanding and finishing before you bury it.  The=
n
finish it.

John...

At 08:11 AM 3/28/00 -0800, Bill wrote:
I have taken a piece of PVC, put a plug in one end and shoved anywhere from
1 to a couple dozen ramrod blanks (straight grain dowels) in there, then
filled it with kerosene, put a plug on the top, and let them soak for as
long as three months, then removed them and let them dry. They still are no=
t
bullet proof, but somewhat improved. It depends on whether you have the tim=
e
and desire. You can purchase new ends (they don't cost that much) and make
up several ramrods at one time. That way, when one breaks (and they will)
you have a spare at hand.
-----Original Message-----


>Sue,
>
>I and many experienced ml shooters will council you to remove the
adjustable
>sight and replace it with a fixed open sight. Once it is adjusted to where
>the gun shoots with it's best load, it need never be messed with again. It
>will not move either and thus will not change the point of impact at an
>awkward moment.
>
>The ferrules on the ram rod should have been "pinned" with  brass or coppe=
r
>wire but were probably just glued on with something like epoxy. Very
careful
>heating of the metal over a candle  will usually loosen them regardless of
>how they were glued. If they have been pinned then you will have to punch
>the old pin out to pull the ferrule off.
>
>Once replaced on a new rod, a small hole should be drilled through ferrule
>and rod and a pin of that size pushed through and peened into place along
>with the new glue which can be epoxy or any water proof glue.
>
>It is a good idea to pick very straight grain wood, preferably hickory as =
a
>ram rod material. It can be soaked in kerosene for a month and then sealed
>with linseed oil. This will make the rod stronger and more flexible and
less
>likely to break again. Straight grain is the most important though. Some
>folks like metal rods or fiber glass rods, even synthetic rods but if your
>husband is concerned with authenticity, wood is the only choice. Good luck
>and feel free to ask questions. I remain....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti



John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/ <http://www.kramerize.com/> >

mail to: <[e-mail]>


--MS_Mac_OE_3037116867_55476_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: MtMan-List: Need advice on new gun</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#FFFFFF">
John,<BR>
You forgot one important thing about burrying your ax or tomahawk, <BR>
Don't lick your fingers!<BR>
Ole # 718<BR>
----------<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>The most critical item in making a new ramrod is to work with s=
plits of wood not sawn wood.  By maintaining full length grain through =
the entire length maximum strength is maintained.  If full length grain=
 is used not nearly so many ramrods will need to be made than if you use pre=
-made dowel rod from sawn stock.<BR>
<BR>
Sharp shards and flakes from knapping musket flints are excellent for scrap=
ing and shaping the rough wood.  Sandstone can be used for --- guess wh=
at?<BR>
<BR>
Though kerosene is the modern substitute for coal oil which was available i=
n the east in small measure, the below is an old method.  See my postin=
g a couple of three Christmases back on the proper uses of linseed oil to av=
oid the problems of modern processing.  <BR>
<BR>
Ferrules can be well mounted with sealing wax along with the cross pinning.=
  Very similar to what used to be called spud cement which can be used =
similarly.<BR>
<BR>
Ramrods, shovel handles, axe handles, walking sticks, and war clubs all wil=
l benefit if you bury them in a large pile of horse manure for 6 months. &nb=
sp;Adds considerable flex to the finished work.  Be certain the wood is=
 well seasoned and ready for final sanding and finishing before you bury it.=
  Then finish it.<BR>
<BR>
John...<BR>
<BR>
At 08:11 AM 3/28/00 -0800, Bill wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>I have taken a piece of PVC, put a plug in one end and shoved a=
nywhere from<BR>
1 to a couple dozen ramrod blanks (straight grain dowels) in there, then<BR=
>
filled it with kerosene, put a plug on the top, and let them soak for as<BR=
>
long as three months, then removed them and let them dry. They still are no=
t<BR>
bullet proof, but somewhat improved. It depends on whether you have the tim=
e<BR>
and desire. You can purchase new ends (they don't cost that much) and make<=
BR>
up several ramrods at one time. That way, when one breaks (and they will)<B=
R>
you have a spare at hand.<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
ONT>><BR>
ONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>[e-mail]</U></FONT>><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Sue,<BR>
><BR>
>I and many experienced ml shooters will council you to remove the<BR>
adjustable<BR>
>sight and replace it with a fixed open sight. Once it is adjusted to wh=
ere<BR>
>the gun shoots with it's best load, it need never be messed with again.=
 It<BR>
>will not move either and thus will not change the point of impact at an=
<BR>
>awkward moment.<BR>
><BR>
>The ferrules on the ram rod should have been "pinned" with &n=
bsp;brass or copper<BR>
>wire but were probably just glued on with something like epoxy. Very<BR=
>
careful<BR>
>heating of the metal over a candle  will usually loosen them regar=
dless of<BR>
>how they were glued. If they have been pinned then you will have to pun=
ch<BR>
>the old pin out to pull the ferrule off.<BR>
><BR>
>Once replaced on a new rod, a small hole should be drilled through ferr=
ule<BR>
>and rod and a pin of that size pushed through and peened into place alo=
ng<BR>
>with the new glue which can be epoxy or any water proof glue.<BR>
><BR>
>It is a good idea to pick very straight grain wood, preferably hickory =
as a<BR>
>ram rod material. It can be soaked in kerosene for a month and then sea=
led<BR>
>with linseed oil. This will make the rod stronger and more flexible and=
<BR>
less<BR>
>likely to break again. Straight grain is the most important though. Som=
e<BR>
>folks like metal rods or fiber glass rods, even synthetic rods but if y=
our<BR>
>husband is concerned with authenticity, wood is the only choice. Good l=
uck<BR>
>and feel free to ask questions. I remain....<BR>
><BR>
>YMOS<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>>Capt. Lahti<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0<BR>
<BR>
Kramer's Best Antique Improver<BR>
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<<BR>
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<<BR>
<BR>
<<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>http://www.kramerize.com/</U></FONT> <<FONT=
 COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>http://www.kramerize.com/</U></FONT>> ><BR>
<BR>
mail to: <<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>[e-mail]</U></FONT>> <=
BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BODY>
</HTML>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need advice on new gun
Date: 28 Mar 2000 21:58:21 EST

> Ramrods, shovel handles, axe handles, walking sticks, and war clubs all will
>  benefit if you bury them in a large pile of horse manure for 6 months.
Adds
>  considerable flex to the finished work.  Be certain the wood is well
>  seasoned and ready for final sanding and finishing before you bury it.
Then
>  finish it.

John,
Have a friend who restores old clocks.  One of the things he does to match
old wood when necessary, it to smear the replacement wood with dog manure and
then bury it in the garden for several weeks.  It ages the new wood to match
the old.  I suspect that the highly acidic dog manure breaks down the wood
fibers.

Dave Kanger

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From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate
Date: 28 Mar 2000 10:32:15 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BF98A0.E2632180
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

John C. Funk, Jr. wrote:

How far back does the "macate" rein date back?

The mecate can be used with both bosal and snaffle. The use of the bosal =
is claimed to be descended from the Moors who invaded Spain in the =
Middle Ages, but can definitely be traced to the grand horseman of =
California. Ms Victor quoted Meek as claiming the Nez Perce used a horse =
hair rein of sorts:=20

"For bridles they used horse-hair cords, attached around the animal's =
mouth."


And they also claim the camp keepers of the fur trade made horsehair =
ropes themselves:

....finds a piece of work imperfectly done, whether it be cleaning the =
firearms, making a hair rope, or a skin lodge, or washing a horse's =
back.....

What they used the ropes for I can only speculate. Horsehair does not =
slip in your grip and doesn't hold water as bad as some when wet. But as =
you might guess I am partial to the hackmore.

WY




------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BF98A0.E2632180
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<P>John C. Funk, Jr. wrote:</P>
<P>How far back does the "macate" rein date back?</P>
<P>The mecate can be used with both bosal and snaffle. The use of the =
bosal is=20
claimed to be descended from the Moors who invaded Spain in the Middle =
Ages, but=20
can definitely be traced to the grand horseman of California. Ms Victor =
quoted=20
Meek as claiming the Nez Perce used a horse hair rein of sorts: </P>
<P>"For bridles they used horse-hair cords, attached around the animal's =

mouth."</P><FONT face=3DArial>
<P></P></FONT>
<P>And they also claim the camp keepers of the fur trade made horsehair =
ropes=20
themselves:</P>
<P>....finds a piece of work imperfectly done, whether it be cleaning =
the=20
firearms, making a hair rope, or a skin lodge, or washing a horse's=20
back.....</P>
<P>What they used the ropes for I can only speculate. Horsehair does not =
slip in=20
your grip and doesn’t hold water as bad as some when wet. But as =
you might guess=20
I am partial to the hackmore.</P>
<P>WY</P>
<P> </P></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BF98A0.E2632180--


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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Nationals 2001
Date: 28 Mar 2000 07:36:19 -0700

Hey Crazy,
I don't have your e-mail address in my file, at Bridger I talked to Allen
about a possible spot for next years camp. Please contact me off list and I
will tell you about it.
YMOS
Ole # 718

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: tipi poles
Date: 29 Mar 2000 12:47:12 EST


In a message dated 3/29/00 6:28:51 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<  Your post about the poles was quite timely for me, and I'm frustrated
that for some reason, I can't post to the list.  I get the messages fine, I
just can't reply.

 >>

Hallo Bobbie,

Hmmmm...I've had that problem in the past too. What you need to do is
"unsubscribe" from the list and then "re-subscribe" to the list. Don't know
what happens in cyber, but that should fix the problem. Also send an email
directly to Dean and let him know what's been going on.

<<<<I came across a lodgepole pine that had been recently blown
down in a wind.  It was quite straight and about the length that I will
need.  I wondered what the "contraindications", if any, would be to using
trees that I find blown down. >>>>

What you need to look for in a pole, besides being straight, is that the
diameter where you tie the poles together, (maybe 17' up for a 18' tipi)  be
around 1 3/4" to 2".... and you don't want the bases much more than 2 1/2" to
3". These tall "skinny" poles are usually found in dense stands.

Blow down poles work fine, have the advantage that you can use them right
away, (green trees need to be dried out for a month or more) but hard work
getting the bark off( don't think you could blow the bark off with the
pressure cleaner). The wood may already have started to turn gray with age,
so maybe not as pretty as the new poles. I know what you mean about cutting
new trees, (I live in the NW and have seen what the loggers can do) but offer
that lodgepole pine grow in such dense groves that "thinning" them out gives
the others "breathing" room...

If you don't have it already, get a copy of "The Indian Tipi" by Laubin
before you by your first lodge. It is THE book on tipi's.... Hope this helps
and if you have any more questions, let me know.

Ymos,
Steve



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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tipi poles
Date: 29 Mar 2000 12:18:35 -0600


-----Original Message-----
Cc: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>



> I know what you mean about cutting
>new trees, (I live in the NW and have seen what the loggers can do) ) but
offer
>that lodgepole pine grow in such dense groves that "thinning" them out
gives
>the others "breathing" room...

Hey, I resemble that remark! I would offer that all trees grow in a manner
that they thin themselves out over time. When you cut some tepee poles out
of a dense stand and give the remaining trees "breathing" room you are
managing the stand of trees wether you realize it or not. I am not saying
this in defense of those who would damage the environment through
indiscriminate harvest practices.

"I was alive in the forest
 I was cut by the cruel axe
 In life I was silent
 In death I sweetly sing"

(from an Elizabethen lute face)

northwoods




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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tipi poles
Date: 29 Mar 2000 13:12:08 -0800

In that regard, even if you pick up dead lodgepoles from off the ground, you
are "managing" to an extent - depriving the soil of the humus the dead trees
eventually turn into. For me, I sometimes have picked up dead poles,
sometimes cut them. I do not do this on a large scale, just enough for my
tipi and fencing needs. I don't feel guilty about this, I grew up in a state
where wood pulp was and is a major industry and trees replace themselves
within forty years. Here in the west that is not so true. Quakies, which are
being cut and used for wafer board, does a good job of fairly fast regrowth,
but the conifers take forever. Trees left standing beyond their maturity,
though, tend to rot in the center and become useless for lumber, while
shading out new growth. Nature's way, I guess, but then, so is mankind.
-----Original Message-----


>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Cc: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: March 29, 2000 11:49 AM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Re: tipi poles
>
>
>
>> I know what you mean about cutting
>>new trees, (I live in the NW and have seen what the loggers can do) ) but
>offer
>>that lodgepole pine grow in such dense groves that "thinning" them out
>gives
>>the others "breathing" room...
>
>Hey, I resemble that remark! I would offer that all trees grow in a manner
>that they thin themselves out over time. When you cut some tepee poles out
>of a dense stand and give the remaining trees "breathing" room you are
>managing the stand of trees wether you realize it or not. I am not saying
>this in defense of those who would damage the environment through
>indiscriminate harvest practices.
>
>"I was alive in the forest
> I was cut by the cruel axe
> In life I was silent
> In death I sweetly sing"
>
>(from an Elizabethen lute face)
>
>northwoods
>
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate
Date: 29 Mar 2000 17:22:39 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

WY,
Thanks for your response but your answer, though illuminating,  doesn't =
answer my question....."How far back can the "Macate" rein (system) be =
traced? =20
I know what it can be used for.  I know how it is used but I'm looking =
for the 'history' of it and it's origin.  I do know that horse (tail and =
mane) and buffalo hair were originally woven to create the 21" (+/-) =
rein.  It was (is)  used with a snaffle bit (typically)  and =
incorporates rein and lead when laced through "slobber straps" on the =
snaffle.  I have seen paintings in "Man Made Mobile" which suggest the =
Native American fabricated a similar item.  These appeared to be tied =
around the horses lower jaw resulting in a "rein" and "lead" which =
appeared to be secured by the rider.  I guess what I'm asking is.....is =
the rein (system) period correct.....in anyone's estimation?
I've found it VERY successful and solves a multitude of situations =
encountered in the field.  Basically....I like it!
John Funk
Rick Baird......I know you have 'years' on a critter...give me your =
input.......please...  jf
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Wynn & Gretchen Ormond=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 9:32 AM
  Subject: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate


  John C. Funk, Jr. wrote:

  How far back does the "macate" rein date back?

  The mecate can be used with both bosal and snaffle. The use of the =
bosal is claimed to be descended from the Moors who invaded Spain in the =
Middle Ages, but can definitely be traced to the grand horseman of =
California. Ms Victor quoted Meek as claiming the Nez Perce used a horse =
hair rein of sorts:=20

  "For bridles they used horse-hair cords, attached around the animal's =
mouth."


  And they also claim the camp keepers of the fur trade made horsehair =
ropes themselves:

  ....finds a piece of work imperfectly done, whether it be cleaning the =
firearms, making a hair rope, or a skin lodge, or washing a horse's =
back.....

  What they used the ropes for I can only speculate. Horsehair does not =
slip in your grip and doesn't hold water as bad as some when wet. But as =
you might guess I am partial to the hackmore.

  WY




------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BF99A3.61EE7640
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3401" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>WY,</DIV>
<DIV>Thanks for your response but your answer, though illuminating,  =
doesn't=20
answer my question....."How far back can the "Macate" rein (system) be=20
traced?  </DIV>
<DIV>I know what it can be used for.  I know how it is used but I'm =
looking=20
for the 'history' of it and it's origin.  I do know that horse =
(tail and=20
mane) and buffalo hair were originally woven to create the 21" (+/-) =
rein. =20
It was (is)  used with a snaffle bit (typically)  and incorporates rein =
and lead=20
when laced through "slobber straps" on the snaffle.  I have seen =
paintings=20
in "Man Made Mobile" which suggest the Native American fabricated a =
similar=20
item.  These appeared to be tied around the horses lower jaw =
resulting in a=20
"rein" and "lead" which appeared to be secured by the rider.  I =
guess what=20
I'm asking is.....is the rein (system) period correct.....in anyone's=20
estimation?</DIV>
<DIV>I've found it VERY successful and solves a multitude of situations=20
encountered in the field.  Basically....I like it!</DIV>
<DIV>John Funk</DIV>
<DIV>Rick Baird......I know you have 'years' on a critter...give me your =

input.......please...  jf</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" =
title=[e-mail]>Wynn &=20
  Gretchen Ormond</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 28, 2000 =
9:32=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: =
saddles/mecate</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P>John C. Funk, Jr. wrote:</P>
  <P>How far back does the "macate" rein date back?</P>
  <P>The mecate can be used with both bosal and snaffle. The use of the =
bosal is=20
  claimed to be descended from the Moors who invaded Spain in the Middle =
Ages,=20
  but can definitely be traced to the grand horseman of California. Ms =
Victor=20
  quoted Meek as claiming the Nez Perce used a horse hair rein of sorts: =
</P>
  <P>"For bridles they used horse-hair cords, attached around the =
animal's=20
  mouth."</P><FONT face=3DArial>
  <P></P></FONT>
  <P>And they also claim the camp keepers of the fur trade made =
horsehair ropes=20
  themselves:</P>
  <P>....finds a piece of work imperfectly done, whether it be cleaning =
the=20
  firearms, making a hair rope, or a skin lodge, or washing a horse's=20
  back.....</P>
  <P>What they used the ropes for I can only speculate. Horsehair does =
not slip=20
  in your grip and doesn’t hold water as bad as some when wet. But =
as you might=20
  guess I am partial to the hackmore.</P>
  <P>WY</P>
  <P> </P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Fwd: MtMan-List: Re: tipi poles
Date: 29 Mar 2000 22:54:23 EST


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Hallo the List,

Can anyone figure out why Bobbie can't post on the list?

Ymos,
Steve

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Hi Steve,

   Even though I tried to unsub and resub, and now receive two copies of
every post, I still can't get a post of mine to "stick" to the list.  :-/

   So, here is what I sent to the list....



Steve advised:


>Hmmmm...I've had that problem in the past too. What you need to do is
>"unsubscribe" from the list and then "re-subscribe" to the list.

  Well, I did that, but it likes me so much it won't let me unsub, so for
now I'll be seeing double.  ^_^


> and you don't want the bases much more than 2 1/2" to 3".

  That was what I needed to know--- Thanks!   After that first "perfect"
one that I saw, most of the others were quick thick at the base.


>Blow down poles work fine, have the advantage that you can use them right
>away, (green trees need to be dried out for a month or more) but hard work
>getting the bark off

  Again, what I needed to know.  Some of the bark is already coming off,
and looks like some could peel off.  <hope, hope>

   Is there any potential problem with insects?

> The wood may already have started to turn gray with age,
>so maybe not as pretty as the new poles.

  That's ok, neither am I....  <snicker>


>If you don't have it already, get a copy of "The Indian Tipi" by Laubin
>before you by your first lodge. It is THE book on tipi's....

  Actually, because I have a chronic illness that prevents it, I'm not able
to put up a tipi. I'm going to get either a pyramid or an officer's tent.
Still need that center pole.   Along with a lot of other people, I would
*love* to have a tipi, but it just won't work for me.

  I understand that some people "splice" a pole for easier transporting....
any clues what may be involved in doing this?

> Hope this helps and if you have any more questions, let me know.

   Your answer was not only helpful, but now I'm very encouraged.  I'm
ready to go pole hunting! I'll probably have more questions, and really
appreciate the help.  This is a big first step, and I'm hoping to not make
more mistakes than necessary.

    Thanks,

        Bobbie, crossing fingers that this goes through.....



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tipi poles
Date: 30 Mar 2000 06:36:52 EST

E-mail me and I will tell you how I got back on line. sounds like the same
trouble i had.
[e-mail]
rick petzoldt

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: crashing of juno---whats wrong????
Date: 30 Mar 2000 13:36:53 -0500

how did you do it ---been loosing msges left and right and crashing about
ever other day
hawk

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 06:36:52 EST [e-mail] writes:
> E-mail me and I will tell you how I got back on line. sounds like the
> same
> trouble i had.
> [e-mail]
> rick petzoldt
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: crashing of juno---whats wrong????
Date: 30 Mar 2000 15:22:21 -0500

sorry list thought we were offline---
    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From: Glenn Darilek <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Uncommon things that WERE common
Date: 30 Mar 2000 16:10:05 -0600

A while ago there was a little discussion on these pages about the
anachronisms found at modern rendezvous.  The other side to this
discussion is "What was common at the fur trade rendezvous, but is now
uncommon at buckskinning rendezvous."

Of course, there are things that are not practical at modern rendezvous
such as hundreds of horses and mules, saddles, beaver pelts, buffalo
robes, etc.  But to enliven the discussion, here is my list of things
that were common, at least at some rendezvous, but are uncommon at the
rendezvous of today.  I invite others to comment and add to this list:

* Wood sapling tripods over fires with a camp kettle hanging

* Meat cooking near a fire on sticks stuck vertically in the ground

* Hunters sack caps - these have been discussed on these pages

* People sitting/ reclining on the ground

* People sitting around a blanket to eat

* Meat racks for jerking meat

* Feathers in hats

* Teepees with the bottoms of the opening unattached, with the edges
folded back for   easy access

* "Jumping and wrestling"

YMOS
Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner

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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: kinninik
Date: 30 Mar 2000 18:03:59 -0600

    I was very surprised at an earlier post that stated kinninik was a type
of plant.  I had always thought it was a general name for various smoking
mixtures of the Indians.
    When I smoked a pipe, for many years I bought kinninik from the Mohawk
Indian tribe in New York state and I also sold it out of my muzzle loading
shop near Friendship, Indiana.
    The tribe sold six different varieties of the smoking mixtures. All were
called 'kinninik'.
    An amusing incident caused me to stop smoking these mixtures anywhere
but at camp.  One day I was stopped by an Indiana State Trooper. He got a
very puzzled look on his face and inquired about what kind of "tobacco" I
was smoking. When I tried to explain that what I was smoking did not contain
any tobacco at all he got really curious.  Fortunately, he belonged to my
muzzle loading club and accepted my explanation and solemn word that my
smoke did not contain any illegal substance and he let me go.
    Actually, I never knew all the ingredients in the various blends and
there could have been something in there that would not have passed muster
if tested. I just don't know.
Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas


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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: kinninik
Date: 30 Mar 2000 18:19:32 -0600

It isn't a type of plant, and it does refer to a number of different smoking
mixtures. In my part of the country it is as Mike Rock stated, the inner
bark of the red osier, or dogwood, and it often times was mixed with
tobacco, but it is not limited to that combination by any means.

northwoods


-----Original Message-----


>    I was very surprised at an earlier post that stated kinninik was a type
>of plant.  I had always thought it was a general name for various smoking
>mixtures of the Indians.
>    When I smoked a pipe, for many years I bought kinninik from the Mohawk
>Indian tribe in New York state and I also sold it out of my muzzle loading
>shop near Friendship, Indiana.
>    The tribe sold six different varieties of the smoking mixtures. All
were
>called 'kinninik'.
>    An amusing incident caused me to stop smoking these mixtures anywhere
>but at camp.  One day I was stopped by an Indiana State Trooper. He got a
>very puzzled look on his face and inquired about what kind of "tobacco" I
>was smoking. When I tried to explain that what I was smoking did not
contain
>any tobacco at all he got really curious.  Fortunately, he belonged to my
>muzzle loading club and accepted my explanation and solemn word that my
>smoke did not contain any illegal substance and he let me go.
>    Actually, I never knew all the ingredients in the various blends and
>there could have been something in there that would not have passed muster
>if tested. I just don't know.
>Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: Bobbie <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: kinninik
Date: 30 Mar 2000 17:38:50 -0700

   I'm going to try to post again, and see if the gremmlins have decided to
depart.  ^_^

  I looked in Colorado Flora, by William A. Weber, and here is what it says:

ERICACEAE (Heath Family)  Arctostaphylos [Greek, arctos, bear, + staphyle,
bunch of grapes].  Bearberry, Kinnikinnick
One species, A. uva-ursi

   I have several photos of it, but unfortunately none are scanned yet.
However, I have some pictures from Plants of Rocky Mountain National Park
(Nelson) which I could email to anyone who would like to see them.  There
is one with flowers, and one with the berries.

   These plants are quite picturesque in the snow of winter with their
bright red berries.

     Bobbie, lover-of-plants...  ^_^

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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Uncommon things that WERE common
Date: 30 Mar 2000 16:48:16 -0800

Sounds like Elk Park a few years back.

JF


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 2:10 PM


> A while ago there was a little discussion on these pages about the
> anachronisms found at modern rendezvous.  The other side to this
> discussion is "What was common at the fur trade rendezvous, but is now
> uncommon at buckskinning rendezvous."
>
> Of course, there are things that are not practical at modern rendezvous
> such as hundreds of horses and mules, saddles, beaver pelts, buffalo
> robes, etc.  But to enliven the discussion, here is my list of things
> that were common, at least at some rendezvous, but are uncommon at the
> rendezvous of today.  I invite others to comment and add to this list:
>
> * Wood sapling tripods over fires with a camp kettle hanging
>
> * Meat cooking near a fire on sticks stuck vertically in the ground
>
> * Hunters sack caps - these have been discussed on these pages
>
> * People sitting/ reclining on the ground
>
> * People sitting around a blanket to eat
>
> * Meat racks for jerking meat
>
> * Feathers in hats
>
> * Teepees with the bottoms of the opening unattached, with the edges
> folded back for   easy access
>
> * "Jumping and wrestling"
>
> YMOS
> Glenn Darilek
> Iron Burner
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: kinninik
Date: 30 Mar 2000 19:06:58 -0600

Bobbie it appears that you have gotten things worked out! Good to see it. We
can always use another interested party to add to the discussions. I think
if you look up the term kinikkinik in your dictionary, you will find that
the defintion is a mixture of tobbaco, or tobacco and dried Sumac leaves, or
the inner bark of red osier, or any of the plants that are used for such a
mixture. So while bearberry could by itself be reffered to as kinikkinik, so
could any of the other plants that are used for smoking, alone or a mixture
thereof.

northwoods


-----Original Message-----


>   I'm going to try to post again, and see if the gremmlins have decided to
>depart.  ^_^
>
>  I looked in Colorado Flora, by William A. Weber, and here is what it
says:
>
>ERICACEAE (Heath Family)  Arctostaphylos [Greek, arctos, bear, + staphyle,
>bunch of grapes].  Bearberry, Kinnikinnick
>One species, A. uva-ursi
>
>   I have several photos of it, but unfortunately none are scanned yet.
>However, I have some pictures from Plants of Rocky Mountain National Park
>(Nelson) which I could email to anyone who would like to see them.  There
>is one with flowers, and one with the berries.
>
>   These plants are quite picturesque in the snow of winter with their
>bright red berries.
>
>     Bobbie, lover-of-plants...  ^_^
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: kinninik
Date: 30 Mar 2000 20:11:22 EST


In a message dated 3/30/00 4:36:14 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<  These plants are quite picturesque in the snow of winter with their
bright red berries.

     Bobbie, lover-of-plants...  ^_^
 >>

Wooohoooo....Bobbie! Ya made it to the list...glad you figured it out.

Ymos,
Steve

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From: Julia <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: kinninik
Date: 30 Mar 2000 17:25:29 -0800

Hey there northwoods,

On the west coast we have a plant with the common name of
Kinnikinnick, just  as Bobbie described.    But you are correct in
the definition of kinnikinnick being a "smoking mixture" for that is
what the name means in native tongue.

Respectfully,
Julia of the Willamette Valley


>Bobbie it appears that you have gotten things worked out! Good to see it. We
>can always use another interested party to add to the discussions. I think
>if you look up the term kinikkinik in your dictionary, you will find that
>the defintion is a mixture of tobbaco, or tobacco and dried Sumac leaves, or
>the inner bark of red osier, or any of the plants that are used for such a
>mixture. So while bearberry could by itself be reffered to as kinikkinik, so
>could any of the other plants that are used for smoking, alone or a mixture
>thereof.
>
>northwoods
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bobbie <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: March 30, 2000 6:36 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: kinninik
>
>
>  >   I'm going to try to post again, and see if the gremmlins have decided to
>  >depart.  ^_^
>  >
>  >  I looked in Colorado Flora, by William A. Weber, and here is what it
>says:
>  >
>  >ERICACEAE (Heath Family)  Arctostaphylos [Greek, arctos, bear, + staphyle,
>  >bunch of grapes].  Bearberry, Kinnikinnick
>  >One species, A. uva-ursi
>  >
>  >   I have several photos of it, but unfortunately none are scanned yet.
>  >However, I have some pictures from Plants of Rocky Mountain National Park
>  >(Nelson) which I could email to anyone who would like to see them.  There
>  >is one with flowers, and one with the berries.
>  >
>  >   These plants are quite picturesque in the snow of winter with their
>  >bright red berries.
>  >
>  >     Bobbie, lover-of-plants...  ^_^
>  >
>  >----------------------
>  >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>  >
>
>
>----------------------
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From: "Gary McLeod" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: kinninik
Date: 30 Mar 2000 20:30:11 EST

It can be one or more .
I know I've tried everything!!!!!!!!!
Two Candle



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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: kinninik
Date: 30 Mar 2000 19:44:11 -0600


-----Original Message-----


 > But you are correct in
>the definition of kinnikinnick being a "smoking mixture" for that is
>what the name means in native tongue.

I believe the word is Algonquin in origin, what tribe specifically I do not
know.

northwoods



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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: fur trade book
Date: 31 Mar 2000 08:11:05 -0600

Not much been going on here the last few days it seems, so I figure i'll
share a couple things I got put on to last week. One is
www.heritagebooks.com . This company is in the business of taking old out of
print books that have historical interest adn re-publishing them. A friend
gave me one of there catalogs and I found an several books that I added to
my library. One was vol. 19 of WI Histroical Collections that includes "the
Mackinac Register" which is a lsit of some of the  marriges, births, and
deaths from 1695-1821 on the island. Another is "A WI Fur Traders Journal,
1804-05" which is a journal written by Francois Victor Malhiot, a French
Canadian. He was placed in charge of a post in northern Wi on Lac De
Flambeau (Northwest Co) and wintered there more than one winter. It details
the problems he encountered with a rival company (XY), drunkeness among
traders and natives, transportaiton opf goods, and a lot of information that
isn't contained in many journals like how he had tooth problems and other
illnesses, and how he felt about the isolation and lonliness. Following the
text are his records of invoices and other memoranda. It's all there,
everything he brought in, everything he traded for, everything he gave away
to natives,  very interesting, a lot of info....
Last but not least the book includes letters pertaining to the great lakes
fur trade 1778-1815. Documents consist principally of business and friendly
letters, official manuscripts, liscences, territorial regulations, and the
like. They provide a lot of insight into how the great corporations were
organized and managed.
This is just a great book! I should mention that rather than order the
reprint I looked on a used book search and found an original copy for the
same money as the reprint (as I did with all of the titles that I found in
the catalog that I wanted).
Heritage books has many many other interesing books and CD roms on history,
hope someone else can find some usefull info....

northwoods


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From:    "John Hunt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Uncommon things that WERE common
Date: 31 Mar 2000 09:24:06 -0500

Glenn, Most of the uncommon things that you listed are the common at most if
not all AMM camps. Search out some members of the AMM and make friends. Most
AMM members don`t go bragging about being members. Gotta corner`em, then ask
if members. then they will answer you. Most are very friendly types. After
getting yourself and camp correct to their acceptance then they will invite
you to spend time with them as a guest and the uncommon becomes quite the
common. Though I`m not an AMM member I have spent time in several of their
camps and was made to feel like one of them.

One mention, the meat cooking on a vertical stick, you have never had good
eat`in till you`ve par tak`in of hump ribs cooked in this way. You`s tongue
will beat yo brain out try`in to get mo.

I would also like to suggest to all that are SERIOUS students of the fur
trade to subscribe to the AMM publication "The Tomahawk and Longrifle"
Subscription info. is in muzzleloader mag. and others. If you can not find
info ask on this list and you will recieve many answers how to subscribe.



John (BIG JOHN) Hunt
Longhunter
Mountainman
southwest  Ohio
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 2:12 PM


> A while ago there was a little discussion on these pages about the
> anachronisms found at modern rendezvous.  The other side to this
> discussion is "What was common at the fur trade rendezvous, but is now
> uncommon at buckskinning rendezvous."
>
> Of course, there are things that are not practical at modern rendezvous
> such as hundreds of horses and mules, saddles, beaver pelts, buffalo
> robes, etc.  But to enliven the discussion, here is my list of things
> that were common, at least at some rendezvous, but are uncommon at the
> rendezvous of today.  I invite others to comment and add to this list:
>
> * Wood sapling tripods over fires with a camp kettle hanging
>
> * Meat cooking near a fire on sticks stuck vertically in the ground
>
> * Hunters sack caps - these have been discussed on these pages
>
> * People sitting/ reclining on the ground
>
> * People sitting around a blanket to eat
>
> * Meat racks for jerking meat
>
> * Feathers in hats
>
> * Teepees with the bottoms of the opening unattached, with the edges
> folded back for   easy access
>
> * "Jumping and wrestling"
>
> YMOS
> Glenn Darilek
> Iron Burner
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Uncommon things that WERE common
Date: 31 Mar 2000 07:02:16 -0800

On Fri, 31 March 2000, "John Hunt" wrote:

>
> Glenn, Most of the uncommon things that you listed are the common at most if
> not all AMM camps.............

> > Of course, there are things that are not practical at modern rendezvous such as horses and mules, saddles, beaver pelts, buffalo robes, etc.  But to enliven the discussion, here is my list of things
> > that were common, at least at some rendezvous, but are uncommon at the.............
> > Glenn Darilek
> > Iron Burner
> >
> > ----------------------
John,

What was listed as uncommon by Glen, sounds like our usual AMM party camp here in Colorado, your point about the AMM is true John, very few are left with the chip on their shoulder, all that I know are good men - willing to help if asked.


Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate
Date: 31 Mar 2000 08:06:34 -0700



John Funk,
I don't know how far back the "macarthy" goes.  I know the spaniards that first
inhabited the plains as half-man half-horse got their horse savvy from their
ancestors, the moors.  Those moors were nothing more than conquering arabians
and they'd been around horses since the pyramids were nothin' but sand-dunes.  I
guess you could search it out if you were really interested.  As for it being
period, hell yes!  You're over there in Californiy, hie ye to a local mission
and look at the library and pictures of the californios gear.  Any kind of loop
thru a hosses mouth is period according to the native way of thinkin.

BTW I read about war bridles just this past week.  Did you know that when the
war-bridle was passed between the upper lip and the gums and tightened aroudn
the poll it causes endorphines to release into the animals brain and calms him
down?  That's why they were used on raids, bridle up wait til the internal drugs
kicks in and sneak outta enemy camp.  Slick.  Gotta give it to them old fellers,
they knew where all the hole cards were.



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From:    "John Hunt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Uncommon things that WERE common
Date: 31 Mar 2000 11:29:17 -0500


Buck

It sounds as if the western camps and the eastern differ very little. The
biggest difference I think would be the number of horses. Most but not all
camps have some horses there. Their is one fellow "Ramrod" Who was in the
Doc Newell party who moved into the New England area. He still comes back to
this area to make camp, and trailers his horse "Blackie" back with him.
There are several animals in this area that are known as well or better than
their owner. Another is Hanna a mule from southeast Ohio, who`s owner is a
Doc Newell member.

Making camp with Dennis, Ramrod and many others is an education in each
camp. There is the usual BS. "Yeah I know no BS. in the west" (GGG) stories,
documentation advise on gear and questions all happen at the camps that I`ve
been a guest at.

AT NO TIME WAS ANY CRITICISM GIVEN WITHOUT MY ASKING. Advise was given upon
asking on how to get myself and gear closer to AMM acceptance standards. At
one camp a friend and myself were shown how to twist and make cordage by a
man named Tom "sorry I don`t remember his last name". Upon leaving each camp
I take with me a bit of new knowledge which was shared by an AMM member, and
much friendship.

At times there has been mention of an AMM member being "uppity" I have NEVER
seen this. To those who have seen the uppities maybe express the desire to
obtain more knowledge would make them less aloft to you. If someone gives
the impression of too much "know-it-all", That would distance you from them.

The above is my opinion and what I have seen with my own eyes and
experienced first hand. I`m sure some of you will disagree on opinions. It`s
your rite. Just respect mine.

Nuff sed

John (BIG JOHN) Hunt
Longhunter
Mountainman
southwest  Ohio
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 7:03 AM


> On Fri, 31 March 2000, "John Hunt" wrote:
>
> >
> > Glenn, Most of the uncommon things that you listed are the common at
most if
> > not all AMM camps.............
>
> > > Of course, there are things that are not practical at modern
rendezvous such as horses and mules, saddles, beaver pelts, buffalo robes,
etc.  But to enliven the discussion, here is my list of things
> > > that were common, at least at some rendezvous, but are uncommon at
the.............
> > > Glenn Darilek
> > > Iron Burner
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> John,
>
> What was listed as uncommon by Glen, sounds like our usual AMM party camp
here in Colorado, your point about the AMM is true John, very few are left
with the chip on their shoulder, all that I know are good men - willing to
help if asked.
>
>
> Later
> Buck Conner
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> "meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
>                   Aux Aliments de Pays!
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: kinninik
Date: 31 Mar 2000 11:10:32 -0500



On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:03:59 -0600 "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
writes:
One day I was stopped by an Indiana State Trooper. He
> got a
> very puzzled look on his face and inquired about what kind of
> "tobacco" I
> was smoking.

Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas

them troopers are funny like that---had the same thing happen in
arkansas---with a state trooper---and the mixture was laying on the dash
along with my pipe and bag----I was dressed in costume????-he got me out
of the car and had me sit in the back seat of his while he did his little
test on my pipe---and the mixture---then apoligized to me and sent me on
my way---I even invited him to the muzzel shoot and he did show
up------it was the saunders shoot in berryville---he forgot i was going
too fast and sent me on my way with a warning to keep my foot out of
it---

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
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From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Uncommon things that WERE common
Date: 31 Mar 2000 08:53:37 -0800

On Fri, 31 March 2000, "John Hunt" wrote:
> It sounds as if the western camps and the eastern differ very little. The biggest difference I think would be the number of horses.............

I READ AN ARTICLE IN ONE OF THE HORSE MAGAZINES A YEAR AGO THAT THERE ARE MORE HORSES NOW (MAIL-IN SURVEY) THAN THERE WHERE IN THE 1850'S IN NORTH AMERICA. I KNOW OUT HERE IF THERES AVAILABLE GROUND, SEEMS TO BE SOME ANIMALS GRAZING ON IT, HORSES, CATTLE, BUFFALO.

> Making camp with Dennis, Ramrod and many others is an education in each camp......

DENNIS MILES IS A TREAT IN HIMSELF, ALWAYS HAS SOMETHING GOING ON.

> one camp a friend and myself were shown how to twist and make cordage by a man named Tom "sorry I don`t remember his last name". Upon leaving each camp I take with me a bit of new knowledge...........

THAT'S THE WAY IT SHOULD BE - A LEARNING EXPERIENCE FOR EVERYONE.

> If someone gives the impression of too much "know-it-all", That would distance you from them.....

THE BEST WAY TO HANDLE THEM, WALK AWAY.

> Nuff sed
>
> John (BIG JOHN) Hunt

THANKS FOR SHARING YOUR EXPERIENCES JOHN, THERE'S BAD AND GOOD IN ALL GROUPS - HOPEFULLY EVERYONE HAS THE KIND OF EXPERIENCES YOU HAVE HAD.


Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: kinninik
Date: 31 Mar 2000 11:26:03 -0500

There is a plant called kinnikinick.  It grows in many places, but I've
seen it in the mountains above Colorado Springs.  I've picked it, dried it,
smoked it, and had it verified that it is kk for sure.  You can blend it
with other herbs, which was commonly done.  That's probably why there is
confusion over whether it's a plant or a blend.  It's both.  It's available
at many pow-wows.  Some Indians like to make their own blends, others smoke
it straight.  Some blends are smooth, some bitter, but all pretty natural
and tobacco-free.

Cheers,
HBC

**********************************
Henry B. Crawford
Curator of History
Museum of Texas Tech University
Box 43191
Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
[e-mail]
806/742-2442  FAX [phone]
Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
***  Living History . . . Because It's There  ***



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: kinninik
Date: 31 Mar 2000 15:25:22 EST

My " Peterson Guide to Edible Wild Plants" list kinnikinik as a common name
for Bearberry.  Berries may be cooked and eaten, and the leaves used for
tobacco substitute.

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From: Bobbie <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: kinninik
Date: 31 Mar 2000 13:58:29 -0700

   Thanks for the info.  "Bearberry" is still a common name.  Can you
please tell me what it gives for the Latin name?

    I've been looking more into this today (too much time on my hands, I
guess), and finding some peculiar references.

Bobbie

>My " Peterson Guide to Edible Wild Plants" list kinnikinik as a common name
>for Bearberry.  Berries may be cooked and eaten, and the leaves used for
>tobacco substitute.


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: kinninik
Date: 31 Mar 2000 16:15:12 EST

The name nobody can spell, pronounce or use is as follows:  Arctostaphylos
uva-ursi
Sounds like some kind of disease to me.  I prefer bearberry


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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate
Date: 31 Mar 2000 15:33:44 -0600


-----Original Message-----
>BTW I read about war bridles just this past week.  Did you know that when
the
>war-bridle was passed between the upper lip and the gums and tightened
aroudn
>the poll it causes endorphines to release into the animals brain and calms
him
>down?  That's why they were used on raids, bridle up wait til the internal
drugs
>kicks in and sneak outta enemy camp.  Slick.  Gotta give it to them old
fellers,
>they knew where all the hole cards were.


Thats an old trick that is used very often today. Take an old hammer handle
and drill a hole through one end. Pass one end of about a 12" piece of
binder twine through the hole and tie it to the other end. its called a
twitch. Now when you have a horse you have to control just slip the twine
over the upper lip and twist the handle round and round until its tight.
Ussually this is enough to make a horse stand so you can stitch it up, or do
some other kind of work on it. This may sound inhumane to some, but when you
spend a lot of time around a lot of different horses you find that they can
be very accident prone and awful hard to control sometimes.

northwoods


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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate
Date: 31 Mar 2000 15:56:09 -0600

John Funk regarding the antiquity of the mecate, I just looked in a book
that I had handy, "Cowboy Bits and Spurs" by Joyce Overton,  and it says
that the moors had mecates, and they passed there use of it on to the
Spanish like Rick had pointed out. Says they liked to use the
hackamore/bosel/mecate on green horses so as to not harden the mouth to a
bit rite off. The English liked to use a bit from the start. It also says
that when the Spanish came to America they brought this tradition, and it
was responsible for  creating the reining horse as we know it.

northwoods


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate
Date: 31 Mar 2000 15:18:55 -0700



Northwoods,

Yeah, I know about those twitches too.  It's awful treatment.  I've never
resorted to one.  I think it's only for use by very experienced hands and as a
very last resort.  Historical accounts show that the old moutaineers would
follow the old adage, "Cure or Kill" when it came to fractious animals.  They
didn't take the time to mollycoddle animals, or humans either for that matter.

I gotta say I passed on the war-bridle info as info only. . . and not as any
prescription for use by anyone and certainly not condoned by me or anyone I
personally know.  So, folks, don't use twitches or warbridles on your horse
until you try em on yourself first.  Nuff said.
Rick



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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate
Date: 31 Mar 2000 16:44:12 -0600


-----Original Message-----


>Yeah, I know about those twitches too.  It's awful treatment.  I've never
>resorted to one  So, folks, don't use twitches or warbridles on your horse
>until you try em on yourself first.  Nuff said.
>Rick

Well Rick I just new somebody would think that it was cruel and inhumane
treatment.
That isn't the case. Since my wife and I have a veterinary clinic which is
for the most part, but not limtited to large animal work, which for the most
part, but is not limited to equine (We work on everything but snakes) I
speak from the perspective of someone who is around horses quite a bit. And
often its under circumstances that are less than perfect, i.e. horses that
need to be restrained to be treated. Just ask a qualified veterinarian if
twitches are humane or not. They will more than likely try and explain that,
just as you previously pointed out, using a twitch on a horses lip (which is
an accupressure point) releases endorphines. Endorphines are a natural from
of morphine. It does not harm a horse in any way to use a twitch. It is a
very accepted method of restraining a horse. Everyone who has horses and
works with them often should have a twitch around. When a horse needs to be
restrained and can't be with a twitch do you know what the alternative is?
No it's not the "cure or kill" adage you suggested Rick, it's the needle.
And using drugs to restrain a horse is risky. Trust me on that, and if you
don't I can give you more info that will change your mind....

northwoods



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate
Date: 31 Mar 2000 16:29:02 -0700



Northwoods

You use 'em so I bow to your knowledge.  You have the experienced hands I was
talking about.  I can picture some poor feller fighting to load  his cayuse into
a trailer and thinking,  "I read about twitches on that e-mail list.  Let's see,
if I tighten this twitch a little more, that oughta get the @#$$#@#$ in there."
...and I kind of didn't want anyone to cut off their animals lip.

Sorry I brought it up in the first place...other than the historical content
being interesting.  Plenty of horse websites where you can learn about such
other subjects eh?

Rick



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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?
Date: 31 Mar 2000 19:00:35 -0800

Does anyone know, or can describe the process of  CHARCOAL BLUEING ?  I have
seen many references to TRADE GUNS having blued barrels, and I am told they
used a process known as charcoal blueing, which is totally different than
what is used today.  As yet, I have not been able to find anyone who can
definitely describe what the process of charcoal blueing is.
Thanks,
Pendleton


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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate
Date: 31 Mar 2000 17:02:17 -0800

northwoods.......
SUPER.....Great reference and just what I needed.  My thanks to you and Rick
for your feedback.
John Funk



----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 1:56 PM


> John Funk regarding the antiquity of the mecate, I just looked in a book
> that I had handy, "Cowboy Bits and Spurs" by Joyce Overton,  and it says
> that the moors had mecates, and they passed there use of it on to the
> Spanish like Rick had pointed out. Says they liked to use the
> hackamore/bosel/mecate on green horses so as to not harden the mouth to a
> bit rite off. The English liked to use a bit from the start. It also says
> that when the Spanish came to America they brought this tradition, and it
> was responsible for  creating the reining horse as we know it.
>
> northwoods
>
>
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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate
Date: 31 Mar 2000 17:12:12 -0800

Rick,
Actually, I've seen several vet's in our area of the country use twitches as
described by 'northwoods'.  I, too, inquired about the humane aspect of the
instrument which is readily sold in veterinary supply houses.  I was told
that when used properly it releases dopamine (a form of pain killer) when
the horse is undergoing some form of potentially painful treatment.  I will
leave its use in the hands of someone more skillful than I.
John Funk

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 2:18 PM


>
>
> Northwoods,
>
> Yeah, I know about those twitches too.  It's awful treatment.  I've never
> resorted to one.  I think it's only for use by very experienced hands and
as a
> very last resort.  Historical accounts show that the old moutaineers would
> follow the old adage, "Cure or Kill" when it came to fractious animals.
They
> didn't take the time to mollycoddle animals, or humans either for that
matter.
>
> I gotta say I passed on the war-bridle info as info only. . . and not as
any
> prescription for use by anyone and certainly not condoned by me or anyone
I
> personally know.  So, folks, don't use twitches or warbridles on your
horse
> until you try em on yourself first.  Nuff said.
> Rick
>
>
>
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>


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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?
Date: 31 Mar 2000 19:18:50 -0600

Larry suggest you get Journal of Historical Armsmaking Volume 5 (Colonial
Williamsburg), which is available from the NMLRA for about $8. It describes
the different processes they have experimented with in the past for charcoal
bluing and also talks about the prevalence of charcoal bluing on original
guns. If you don't want to buy the book here is the basic method, as told to
me by Eric Kettenburg at [e-mail] any questions you have he could
answer i'm sure:
"Regarding the charcoal bluing process I mentioned, there really isn't much
to it.  Polish the barrel as normal and degrease inside and out (breech
threads too!)  You don't need to be obsessive about it though.  This process
will NOT work with barrels w/ soldered-on draw loops or front sights (ie
smoothbores) unless you attach them afterward.  You need about three 20
pound bags or real hardwood charcoal - NOT briquets.  Dig yourself a long
firepit @ 7 ft long and 2 ft wide and dump 2-4" of sand in the bottom.  Pile
in the charcoal and light that fire baby!  YEE HAA!  When it seems to be
burning all throughout, take two loooooong pairs of tongs and stick that
barrel right down into the middle of it.  Pile on more charcoal.   Let burn
slowly for 2-3 hours and remove the barrel.  Let cool slowly!!!  Wipe down
w/ a wool cloth and oil the heck out of it.  Most beautiful blued barrel
you've ever seen, usually a deep translucent blue-gray w/ hints of some
mottled blues like a color case.  This seems to be the most authentic
appearance.   I do these a lot so I built up (instead of digging a pit) a
square trough out of fieldstone (the old walls are everywhere around here!)
and lined it well with sand.  This has the advantage of allowing you to
control the air intake to the fire w. sheet metal over top to keep it at the
black-red heat.  I've heard other versions that heat the barrel in a metal
trough from below, trough full of powdered charcoal and barrel removed
periodically and rubbed down with lime to ensure a slightly more even blue
but this seems overly complicated to me.  Lots of burned fingers, wasted
time etc.   The way I've been doing it seems to well-match the originals
I've been fortunate enough to see.  The Journal of Historical Armsmaking
Vol. 5 has a small article on this process but they (Williamsburg) do it the
complicated way.  Their barrels seem grayer than mine and the colr does not
seem to be as thick.  To each their own!  DO NOT do this to a barrel if
you've inlet brass or silver inlays into the barrel (ie nameplates etc)
because the two diff. metals will expand/contract at different rates and it
will never look right again.  If you try to tighten it back up, you'll ruin
the blue w/ the file or hammer.  I wouldn't want to use this process on
oct/round barrels either for the same reason:  The vastly different matal
thicknesses throughout the barrel combined w/ the high heat are inviting
warpage.  YIKES!  I've only seen remnants of this blue on oct. rifle or
smooth-rifle barrels anyway.  Well, that's my two cents.  Fire up the
charcoal and break out the hot doggies!  Yes, I do cook with charcoal while
it's burning and stop laughing...no need to waste a good fire!
Eric Kettenburg"

northwoods










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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate
Date: 31 Mar 2000 19:43:12 -0600


-----Original Message-----


>Actually, I've seen several vet's in our area of the country use twitches
as
>described by 'northwoods'.  I, too, inquired about the humane aspect of the
>instrument which is readily sold in veterinary supply houses.  I was told
>that when used properly it releases dopamine (a form of pain killer) when
>the horse is undergoing some form of potentially painful treatment.  I will
>leave its use in the hands of someone more skillful than I.

Not dopamine John, endorphines, which is a morphine like chemical. Really
guys, twitches are not inhumane or difficult to use. If you ever need to
restrain a horse to do teeth work, or check out a foot on an untrained
horse, or whatever, it can be done simply by just grabbing the upper lip in
your hand and twisting to apply pressure. Twitches are not inhumane, sorry
to be redundant, but this method predates the mountain man era by a few
millenia although I am sure that they were aware of how they were used, and
I bet they didn't hesitate to use them when needed. I have also read where a
trapper would have to go through the same ritual every morning, which was,
sneak up real careful like on his hobbled mule, and grab it. Then he would
lead it to camp and grab its pack, and then very deftly grab it's ear and
bite down while throwing the pannier on its back. The darn mule absolutely
would not stand to be loaded if this wasn't done. Every morning the same
ritual would have to be repeated. Horses and mules are funny in that they
can make your life one heck of a lot easier, or make it very miserable. Hey
Rick if your interested in the history of horsemanship read about the
Mongols. Lately I have been doing just that, in preparation for a trip i'll
be taking to outer Mongolia in August on a 2 week horse trek into the
province of Arhangay. Fun stuff, talk about unspoiled virgin country...

northwoods




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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate
Date: 31 Mar 2000 19:52:07 -0800

There are several spots on a horse that will do the same chemical release.
Grabbing the ear (not a preferred thing to do if you are rough about it - it
will tend to make the critter head shy), rubbing just above the eye, or
putting pressure in the center of the upper gum, which can be done from
outside or inside the lip, all have the same effect. The twitch does release
endorphins, but it also inflicts some pain which also tends to get the
animal's attention. Yes, to some it is cruel, especially if held for a
prolonged time so that the horse begins to moan a bit, but it is effective,
and beats hell out of the shoer or other handler getting hurt. The animal is
not left with any permanent injuries and seems none the worse for it. I
prefer to use a soft cotton rope of about 1/2 inch, tied off to one side of
the halter, run under the upper lip and tight against the gum, over to the
other side of the halter where I use a sliding knot so the rope can be
tightened or loosened as needed. (it doesn't take much pressure). It has the
effect of putting pressure on the gum to release the chemical, plus it gives
the horse something to think about besides what is going on under or around
it. I used this on rank or obstreperous horses for years when I was shoeing
and it worked very well. I later watched an old experienced farrier, who had
a helper holding a horse with a chain twitch, get his upper leg broken in 5
places. It about ended his career.
Bill
-----Original Message-----


>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: John C. Funk, Jr. <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: March 31, 2000 7:12 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate
>
>
>>Actually, I've seen several vet's in our area of the country use twitches
>as
>>described by 'northwoods'.  I, too, inquired about the humane aspect of
the
>>instrument which is readily sold in veterinary supply houses.  I was told
>>that when used properly it releases dopamine (a form of pain killer) when
>>the horse is undergoing some form of potentially painful treatment.  I
will
>>leave its use in the hands of someone more skillful than I.
>
>Not dopamine John, endorphines, which is a morphine like chemical. Really
>guys, twitches are not inhumane or difficult to use. If you ever need to
>restrain a horse to do teeth work, or check out a foot on an untrained
>horse, or whatever, it can be done simply by just grabbing the upper lip in
>your hand and twisting to apply pressure. Twitches are not inhumane, sorry
>to be redundant, but this method predates the mountain man era by a few
>millenia although I am sure that they were aware of how they were used, and
>I bet they didn't hesitate to use them when needed. I have also read where
a
>trapper would have to go through the same ritual every morning, which was,
>sneak up real careful like on his hobbled mule, and grab it. Then he would
>lead it to camp and grab its pack, and then very deftly grab it's ear and
>bite down while throwing the pannier on its back. The darn mule absolutely
>would not stand to be loaded if this wasn't done. Every morning the same
>ritual would have to be repeated. Horses and mules are funny in that they
>can make your life one heck of a lot easier, or make it very miserable. Hey
>Rick if your interested in the history of horsemanship read about the
>Mongols. Lately I have been doing just that, in preparation for a trip i'll
>be taking to outer Mongolia in August on a 2 week horse trek into the
>province of Arhangay. Fun stuff, talk about unspoiled virgin country...
>
>northwoods
>
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


----------------------
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