Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OFF SUBJECT Fw: Re: Passing of a friend,
Date: 02 Feb 2000 16:54:03 -0800
On Wed, 02 February 2000, hawknest4@juno.com wrote:
>
> got this from Concho and am forwarding it to the list for information
> only---turtle was good people and will be missed by all ---thanks buck and a job well done---it takes a cool head and a calm spirit to assist in the time of need---again if there is anything i can do or assist with let
> me know---
> "HAWK"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thank you Hawk and everyone on the list and others that have given their blessing on this matter.
Bottom line Hawk, keep'em busy and they don't have time to feel sorry for themselves. They'll have lots of time to do that when they're alone, always take care of business first.
Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~
~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~
~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
On Fri, 04 February 2000, "Henry B. Crawford" wrote:
> >Todd (who also doesn't have a nifty name yet)
> >
>
> I guess we'll just have to do something about that, eh, Todd? I think
> "String Bean" is already taken. :-) What ever happened to "Teton Todd?"
>
> Cheers,
> HBC
> ****************************************
Henry,
Interesting how everyone had a need to have a "mountain" name, was the thing to do for years in this sport. Everyone had one or more names, some fit, some earned, some not to one's liking, but it was a name.
From the other side of the coin, look at many of these "mountain" people, they didn't have a name other than the one given at time of birth, that's what they used throughout their life - when asked "what's your name or handle", no matter if a "nick-name" was given or had been hung on them or not, they used their birth given name. Crockett, Bridger, Sublette, Bent's and so on for an example.
If you receive a "nick-name" Todd, more than likely it will be one you don't like anyway, I wouldn't worry about it - the old timers didn't or didn't answer to that "nick-name", only their birth given one.
Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~
~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~
~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
Northwoods.....that was an outstanding post! I will see if I can find a copy of "The Canadians"...do you know who wrote it? The cart sure was something to look at...beautiful workmanship!
Ymos,
Steve
----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly had a whale of an article, complete
> with drawings, probably 15 years ago.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: SWcushing@aol.com <SWcushing@aol.com>
I have a complete set of those plans as well as additional sketches and a few pictures that I can copy for anyone wanting them. Contact me off list and we'll work something out on the postage.
Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~
~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~
~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> I guess the proper response to this would be, why do you think that dutch
> ovens and cast iron pots were in use during the fur trade period?
>
> Two Squaws
> Hrvn 914
>
I've found reference to a form of dutch ovens being used by the '49 ers, in wagons going west. Most commonly used in the Civil War and later on, again being carried in wagons !
Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~
~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~
~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
The picture of the "cast iron pot and lid" by AJ Miller can be found in Ruxton's "Life in the far west" between pages 108 and 109. The picture is called "Moonlight-camp scene" and dam if I ain't got a pot like that! I'll try to scan the page when I get back home tomorrow.
Ymos,
Steve
----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >One small example if we allow this to pass. Someone, probably soon, will
> find mention of matches in old texts and automatically assume their big box of
> >kitchen matches is perfectly OK. Because we've allowed this to pass all they
> >have to do is keep repeating the same source over and over regardless of
> >contrary information presented and soon we will allow for modern matches
> >because someone wants to believe.
> In hopes of heading this off...
> The first matches I have run across mention of involve splints of wood
> covered with various (relatively unstable) chemicals. To ignite, they are
> dipped into a bottle containing acid. These are nasty things, I gave up on
> them after having the second bottle of acid blown apart by the ignition of
> the match.
> The first friction matches were invented in about 1829; the first American
> patent was issued in 1836.
> Matches were available in Turnbull's establishment in St. Louis in 1834.
> Any traveler going through St. Louis could pick up a supply, but there were
> good reasons not to. It should be pointed out that they were very
> susceptible to moisture-even high humidity, and did I remember to say they
> were unstable? As in, "shake up a box and watch them ignite"? I tried
> these for a while too, but humidity would kill a box over a summer.
> The earliest mention I have seen of matches in the fur trade-on a list of
> goods to a fort-was 1855. Kurz did comment that none were availabe at Fort
> Union in 1852.
> LongWalker c. du B.
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
With a little research you'll find "matches" as called today had a counterpart that has been around and in use at the time of Christ, then called "SPALLS" and where referred to as that up through the 20th century.
Early settlers in the 1600's would amaze the local natives, not only here but all over the world with these firesticks of burning sulphur, according to an article written by John Eaton in a Feb. 1978 issue of "Colonial Life" magazine - had a dozen references to the use of these "spalls'.
"To use them a spark is captured on a piece of char, the spall is touched to the glowing char and then will ignite when blown on"..... A candle then could then be lit, and the spall extinguished by being blown out. By doing this a "spall" could be reused many times. "The biggest problem was if shaken when lit, the "spall" may drip hot molton, burning sulphur" - then you may have a real firestick.
I have never read of the use of the "spall" on the frontier, but have seen reference to there use in villages and settlements. One of the old classics, a sea story of sailing ships made reference to "spalls"; the Captain used them in his cabin for lighting his pipe, lanterns, etc.
I think John will agree that if one looks long and hard enought you'll find references to dispute about any discussion.
I have always figured that if you needed to put a spark on char to lit such an animal as mentioned, I would just stay with my flint and steel and not worry about such things as "SPALLS".
Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~
~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~
~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
On Sat, 26 February 2000, "Norman Anderson" wrote:
>
> Frank,
>
> If you look in the Moulton edition of the Lewis and Clark Journals, you will
> find Lewis writing on July 10, ". . . ordered her to be sunk in the water,
> that the skins might become soft in order the better to take her in peices
> tomorrow and deposite the iron fraim at this place . . ." The following day
> he continues, " . . . I now set to work on my boat, which had been
> previously drawn out of the water before the men departed, and in two hours
> had her fraim in readiness to be deposited. had a cash dug and depsited the
> Fraim of the boat . . ." When Lewis returns to the Great Falls area, he
> writes on July 14, 1806, "the iron fram of the boat had not suffered
> materially." What happened after that is not mentioned in the journals. An
> archeologist from Montana State University has spent time in the area the
> past two summers trying to find the Upper Portage Camp and the iron boat
> itself, but with no luck. Since Lewis and Clark ordered nails pulled from
> metal hardware stripped from the canoes and pirogue no longer usable in
> 1806, one might conclude every scrap of iron was taken for possible trade
> down river. It would be a great find to discover the boat's remains, but
> between the nature of the Missouri and their desperate need for trade goods,
> it seems unlikely in either circumstance.
>
> Norman Anderson
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Last year there was an article in "American Science" magazine (not sure that was the correct name of magazine), that told of finding parts of the iron boat and a few issues later talked of find the remains of several large iron kettles, set at 10' points in a line - standard setup for a military unit in those days, along with iron tent stakes, all where found on the Upper Missouri.
Will look for those articles and correct name of magazine, would think these issues would still be available as being published last year.
Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~
~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~
~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> Way before the fur period time, Issac Walton used horse hair ( I believe
> mainly from the tail) in order to fish with artificial flies.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Larry Butler <Larry@fun-a-fair.com>
> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
> Date: Saturday, February 26, 2000 6:47 PM
> Subject: MtMan-List: fish line
>
>
> >I have read and enjoyed this list for a long time. There has been lots of
> >accounts of fish hooks being traded for almost every thing but what did
> >they use for fish line.
> >Thank You Larry
> >
> >
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paul Jones of: "Braddock's Trace Mercantile" 9306 Roxanne Drive, Austin, TX 78748 - makes and carries braided horse line, period flys, and about anything a period fisherman from Thomas Jeffereson to Jim Bridger would want.
I have a complete fishing set made by Paul, nice workmanship that will "shine" in any camp.
Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~
~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~
~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print
Date: 27 Feb 2000 22:00:59 EST
...<<<how can you look and call>>>>>.....
Oops....sorry John..... I quess I should have said "it kinda looks like the cast iron pot I have so mebbe it could be a cast iron pot!"
With all the stuff I've read the past week or two, a few off you folks may be in denial.... If you just look at one item, or maybe one source, or one article, I can see where some would feel a cast iron "Dutch Oven" didn't happen in the period we're looking at. Add all the pieces together and you may come to a different point of view.
A few folks still think the world is flat...an dam if ya can't change thier minds...
Ymos,
Steve
----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> For the definitive answer to this you should talk to Paul "Cutleg" Jones down here in Texas. Unfortunately, he is in the process of relocating to Houston and is temporarily off line. Wait until you see his name pop up on the list again and ask Paul directly. He knows more than a person should about the subject. He makes and sells horsehair fishing lines, if that tells you anything. Linen lines were also used, if my memory serves from the rocky mountain colleges he has presented..
Don't forget the silk worm leaders, linen leaders, linen lines, horse leaders and lines. You name it and Paul has it or has a resource for it, plus documentation of who, where and when it was available here and in Europe.
Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~
~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~
~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
On Sun, 27 February 2000, "Norman Anderson" wrote:
> I think the article to which you refer is in either Popular Science or
> Popular Mechanics. What was found was at the "Lower Portage Camp." The
> artifacts recoved consisted of a possible wooden tent stake, a large flawed
> gun flint, and a metal push pin such as you would put in a bulletin board
> (or perhaps hold paper down). There was also three fire rings at regular
> intervals and in a straight line, and, I believe, some disturbed soil that
> indicated a three-legged pot. The articles found are on display at the
> Museum of the Rockies in Bozeman. Until recently, KOA had some photos on
> the web of the dig and the artifacts, but the page is now gone. This camp
> is about 18 miles from where the iron boat was cached. The same
> archeologist, has moved to the "Upper Portage Camp" but as of last summer
> had still found nothing. His name is Ken Karsmizki. So far, any evidence
> of actual Lewis and Clark campsites has been hard to come by--even when the
> specific site is known. Karsmizki spent several years to find what little
> he could at the Lower Camp. I don't think the Corps of Discovery wasted
> much.
>
> Norman Anderson
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Norman,
Your right - Popular Science was the magazine, and they (L&C) didn't leave much at any of their camps.
A small group of us have been at several of the know camps, and have found member's of the "Corps of Discovery" names scratched on the walls of a cave in MO (Travern Cave), I found a Rev War style button at one site, another friend found what was left of a tent pin at another site and that's about it for us in 25 years of following the "Corps of Discovery" from PA to MT.
These sites are so remote that most don't want to take the time or make the effort to get to them. Tavern Cave in Clark's journal was only a few hundred yards from the Missouri River then, it's now about 2-1/2 to 2-3/4 miles now with river changes, swampy, bugs everywhere, lots of undergrowth, etc. - probably why the names have stayed intact from our generation.
Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~
~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~
~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
