Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Incident in movie Jeremiah Johnson
Date: 03 Jan 2000 07:00:57 -0800
On Sun, 02 January 2000, JON MARINETTI wrote:
>
> Where Swan (Johnson's Flathead wife) shows him how to hunt grouse? by
> throwing a stone from within 8 feet? - without using a leather sling!
> Can such a hunting technique be backed up from any American Indian
> historical records?
>
According to an article a few years ago in the American Hunter (NRA) magazine, Jefferson used the leather thong with a small piece of leather tied in the center (sling) to throw rocks into heavy cover when hunting birds or deer.
A few presidents later Teddy R. was doing the same thing. He told reporters he had read about this and how well it worked, seems the Europeans watching the natives is where they got it from. The article didn't say which "natives" - Africa, North America, or who know's.
Several of us have used this method for twenty years after seeing Robert Stack use it on American Sportsman while hunting game birds. It works for any game we have tried it on - elk, deer, bear, birds and even buffalo. Works very nicely to move game around for a better shot also.
Later,
Buck Conner
_________________________________
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Incident in movie Jeremiah Johnson
Date: 03 Jan 2000 07:34:13 -0800
On Mon, 03 January 2000, Buck wrote:
>
> On Sun, 02 January 2000, JON MARINETTI wrote:
>
> >
> > Where Swan (Johnson's Flathead wife) shows him how to hunt grouse? by
> > throwing a stone from within 8 feet? - without using a leather sling!
> > Can such a hunting technique be backed up from any American Indian
> > historical records?
> >
> According to an article a few years ago in the American Hunter (NRA) magazine, Jefferson used the leather thong with a small piece of leather tied in the center (sling) to throw rocks into heavy cover when hunting birds or deer.
>
> A few presidents later Teddy R. was doing the same thing. He told reporters he had read about this and how well it worked, seems the Europeans watching the natives is where they got it from. The article didn't say which "natives" - Africa, North America, or who know's.
>
> Several of us have used this method for twenty years after seeing Robert Stack use it on American Sportsman while hunting game birds. It works for any game we have tried it on - elk, deer, bear, birds and even buffalo. Works very nicely to move game around for a better shot also.
>
> Later,
> Buck Conner
> _________________________________
I hit "send" my mistake and didn't get to finish what I was writing, sorry.
I have never seen anything written on just throwing small stones or rocks as a method of killing, usually everything read shows the use of another item involved with the use of a rock or stone - like a sling, slingshot, a bow with a stone or blunt rock attached and so on.
Hollywood has made many movies with kids and adults throwing stones at game and people - from the cavemen to the street gangs !!!
Later,
Buck Conner
_________________________________
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After almost a year in hidding I have a question about this question..'no pun here':)
THe answer was give as to use Canvas well if one wanted to be a bit more "PC" in the Mounian Man Circles what about Osnbreg fabric? I have been told by a few AMM members that this is a very close match.
---
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Incident in movie Jeremiah Johnson
Date: 03 Jan 2000 19:28:35 -0500
> > > Where Swan (Johnson's Flathead wife) shows him how to hunt grouse? by
> > > throwing a stone from within 8 feet? - without using a leather sling!
> > > Can such a hunting technique be backed up from any American Indian
> > > historical records?
Howdy!
Been a lurker for a while but this one caught my attention.............no big deal!!
Back in my younger days (in the eastern states) I used to go squirrel huntin with a pocket full o rocks & make my limit. Had to throw with my left hand tho,....tore'm up pretty bad with my right hand................
JD
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I flew across the Great Divide last week on a trip from my new home in the Pacific Northwest back to the Deep South. I have driven across the Continental Divide many times through South Pass, Idaho, and Colorado, but I have never seen the Rocky Mountains from above. It was clear why they earned their name the Shining Mountains. The deep snow looked like crusty boiled icing clinging to the mountain sides. The silver rivers snaked across the landscape reflecting the bright white light.
I swear, even at 37,000 feet, I heard Bridger, Smith, Sublette, Newell, Meek, and Russell. They're still down there. Their voices and their laughter tangled upwards and I heard their merriment. They were gathered around the campfire in their winter camp; telling yarns, reciting Shakespeare, and a tale or two of Swift. I heard them reminiscing about the days when the mountain streams teemed with Ashley beaver, and the Rendezvous of 1838 when a plew was $5.00 a pound.
I heard them longing for the spring to come and the summer to follow when the earth would warm again like a willing woman under them. Looking forward to another Rendezvous.
Here in late January when it seems the rain will never end and the snow will never melt, I, too, am looking forward to Rendezvous. Looking forward to sharing a fire with those of you who have become steady friends.
Until then, I wish you
Fair Weather
Laura Glise
Wind1838@aol.com
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Ah, there you go again lass, sweet talkin us with your pretty words.
Winter has it's charm but we'll be none to glad to see the Spring come
flowing out of the mountains in a rush of dancing waters. Thank you for
the lovely picture. Winter well, dear lady, I remain...
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
Wind1838@aol.com wrote:
>
> I flew across the Great Divide last week on a trip from my new home in the Pacific Northwest back to the Deep South. I have driven across the Continental Divide many times through South Pass, Idaho, and Colorado, but I have never seen the Rocky Mountains from above. It was clear why they earned their name the Shining Mountains. The deep snow looked like crusty boiled icing clinging to the mountain sides. The silver rivers snaked across the landscape reflecting the bright white light.
>
> I swear, even at 37,000 feet, I heard Bridger, Smith, Sublette, Newell, Meek, and Russell. They're still down there. Their voices and their laughter tangled upwards and I heard their merriment. They were gathered around the campfire in their winter camp; telling yarns, reciting Shakespeare, and a tale or two of Swift. I heard them reminiscing about the days when the mountain streams teemed with Ashley beaver, and the Rendezvous of 1838 when a plew was $5.00 a pound.
>
> I heard them longing for the spring to come and the summer to follow when the earth would warm again like a willing woman under them. Looking forward to another Rendezvous.
>
> Here in late January when it seems the rain will never end and the snow will never melt, I, too, am looking forward to Rendezvous. Looking forward to sharing a fire with those of you who have become steady friends.
>
> Until then, I wish you
> Fair Weather
> Laura Glise
> Wind1838@aol.com
>
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> A friend has asked me the following question and I don't have the
> answer.
>
> "Does the AMM know or made a list of the type rifles, smoothbores, trade
> guns, etc. carried and
> used by the MM? Most prevalent type etc.? How much research into
> firearms has AMM done?"
>
> I took a look in the archives and found many references to rifles, guns
> and fusils, etc. but didn't find any specific references that really
> came close to answering the above question in any detail other that "so
> may of rifles, so many NW guns, so many fusils, etc. Has anyone compiled
> a report of what types and styles, etc. of guns were carried? Where can
> I find that information. Thanks, I remain.....
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
Capt.,
Charley Hanson tried to put together a list years ago and found there where to many unknowns.
For example: the military gave you a musket when finishing your enlistment and many left for the mountains carrying that weapon, according to Charley the numbers are unknown - where the men went with their guns. But we see them in collections found in the Rockies, plain, tacked, broken or their parts used on other guns.
Same with the NW, trade gun and everything from fowlers to plains rifles, everytime Charley thought he had a handle on it, another thing would come up to change his count or his mind. I have a pre 1813 Sharpe trade gun, limited in manf. numbers from England - sold for the east coast only according to the historians (that's where mine came from), yet Charley found a chopped down one at an old ranch in NE, a family hand-me-down - now at the museum.
One's guess is as good as another's on what, type and numbers went to the trade.
Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~
~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory
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I was thus left to wonder. Any one have any input? I remain....
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
________________________________________
Here's some information out of a couple dozen sources, see article Capt. at URL bottom of this page.
________________________________________
BOARD OF ORDNANCE INDIAN GUNS
1813, 1814, 1815, 1816
This is just a very small part of the details available on the contractors and the numbers of firearms supplied in a few years as shown, good example of arms beginning supplied.
Administration of Indian Gifts was handled by the BOARD OF TRADE during the first half of the 18th century and customary for the BOARD OF ORDNANCE to supply the firearms, gunpowder and lead, all included in those gifts. This practice stopped in 1753 for some reason that's not clear when reading supply lists. From this period on the BOARD OF TRADE furnished the orders for arms and choose who was to build them. In 1755 the contractor of choice was Richard Wilson of Minories, London. Wilson and his son, William continued to supply arms for the North American Indian trade well into the mid 1790's.
The number shown with the contractor's name is the quantity sold to the Ordnance Stores from 1813 to 1816.
Some of the contractors involved in supplying arms:
David BLAIR (at his death his widow took over) 781
Jane Hannah BLAIR 538
Samuel & William DAWES 1,048
Samuel GALTON 2,557
John GILL 943
Thomas HAMPTON 1,135
Richard & William HOLLIS 1,215
KETLAND & ALLPORT 2,779
KETLAND & WALKER & CO. 2,983
Thomas LOWNDES 1,267
MORRIS & GRICE 1,821
Thomas MOXHAM 1,532
William J. ROLFE 1,335
Ramsay & Richard SUTHERLAND 2,587
Henry & John WHATELEY 1,580
Robert WHEELER & SON 1,491
WILLETS & HOLDEN 1,194
TOTAL 26,786
Shown below is a list of types of weapons produced for each year of the four years of their contracts.
ARMS 1813 1814 1815 1816 TOTAL
COMMON GUNS 2,911 5,595 3,806 182 12,494
CHIEF'S GUN 3,448 2,934 3,645 91 10,118
RIFLES 0 801 737 0 1,538
PISTOLS 531 1,319 786 0 2,636
_____ _____ _____ ____ ______
6,890 10,969 8,974 273 26,786
Other archives such as the Canadian and British sources should have detailed information on supplies or shipments as well as related items sent to the Indian Trade and who issued them.................
all this and more at new site, listed under weapons, "Success in the Fur Trade".
See URL under my name.
Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~
~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory
Aux Ailments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Have just finished a change of e-mail addresses, web site locations, etc. for personal and business pages.
AT&T decided to change there web page size from 9 meg to 6 meg, didn't bother to inform it's users, just sent a bill. I had 8 meg on personal page and my bill for that page jumped from $19.95 to $32.75. So I jumped ship and went another direction leaving AT&T suck eggs.
e-mail at:
buck.conner@uswestmail.net
personal page:
http://www.pages.about.com/buckconner
business page:
http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/
Thank you for your time, make needed changes for contacting me for personal or business.
Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~
~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~
~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
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> In the Mountain Man's Sketch book, by Mr. Hanson, there are two patterns
> that might be of interest to you. First is a pair of Shoshoni smoked
> buckskin gloves. Then on the following page it shows Canadian Indian mittens
> made of red wool blanketing..............
Look at the number of books on Pennsylvania clothing, one of them shows wool knit half mittens (fingers uncovered) with an outer pair of wool blanket ones full size mittens and a cord attached to go over the neck.
Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~
~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~
~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
Aux Ailments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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> We got a dose of sleet and freezing rain south of Ft Worth....would trade for snow anyday.
> YMOS
> Lanney Ratcliff
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lanney,
Being raised with the Amish - they had an old saying that I'm sure Dennis M. will agree with, being in that country.
"On thee first snow that one may track a duck in, write down thee date. This number will be the number of snow's that one will see tracks for thee winter".
In other words the number of snows that puts down at least 1" or better would be counted; funny thing is we have tried this counting method for many years and come within a snow one way or the other from the written date of the first snow for that season. I can't remember if you count the first snow or not !!
Like the Amish would say in asking and answering in the same sentence. "Pretty good, say not".
Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~
~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~
~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
Aux Ailments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Passing of a friend, list member, etc.]
Date: 29 Jan 2000 12:58:06 -0800
On Sat, 29 January 2000, Concho Smith wrote:
> deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) wrote:
>
> Hell, this news is not what I wanted to wake up to today.
> I sorta figger that My runnin' Partner "Duff" met him at the gates and took him to that valley of beaver that he's been trappin' for a couple of years.
>
> Anything I can do on this end, I will..
> D
> ____________________
>
> Isn't that the truth Dennis, I got called at work Friday afternoon, that the
> boys where in route with their Dad.......
>
> I'll let you know what's happening later. Thanks Dennis for being a good friend to our friend.
>
> Concho.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Boys,
Just got into Harrisburg PA, will pass your words on to the family, thanks. Still have an hour and a half drive from here when Concho shows, aren't laptops great.
Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~
~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~
~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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