> The reason I sent the first original post, is that I've noticed that just about all the antique trade pots I come across, are not tinned.
>
> I was wondering... did the traders of the fur era sell these copper pots to the Indians without the tinning, or has the tinning simply worn off over the years?
>
> Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho
Lee,
I got several pots that where from the 1850 to 1870 period when the government put the Indians on the reservations, two are not tinned and one is, same with a couple of pans made of brass - tinned and not tinned. Asked Hanson about this and from what he found, it depended on the government contract, supplier, pricing and quality as to how heavy a material the items was made from.
Tin was cheaper than brass or copper, so he felt that it was possible a tinned brass or copper pot (lighter guage brass or copper material) could bring as much $$$$ as a same weight item that wasn't tinned. Thus the tinned pot, pan item was cheaper and would show more profit for the trader, health issues wasn't a problem in those days.
It's only been since WWII that we have been really worried about what we use to drink from, eat on or cook in, look at the amount of pewter our grand folks used for those special events.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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> i'm a newcomer to the list and also somewhat of a greenhorn. i have kind of an odd question regarding the carrying of knives. aside from the usuall belt/sheath knife and patch knife, are there any accounts of additional knives being carried as weapons in an unconventional manner?
> shoulder sling under arm or on the back? other.........
Look at Madison Grants book on pouches, his book on powder horns, and knives, they show additional knives. Some are folders that are carried in the pouches and haversacks or bedrolls, while several are attached to the back of the shooting pouches or haversacks, personal liking.
Lewis or was it Clark, carried a large knife over his shoulder instead of a hawk. Dennis Miles (on this list)does the same and could give you more information on what works with his testing of this method of carry.
I have seen guys carrying boot knives, but have never really seen anything to documenation for the fur trade, earliest reference I could find was the Civil War, several Officers used this as a way to carry extra protection.
St.Vrain wore a vest as did Marino Medina that had a sheath on the inside, where a small knife was carried out of sight for protection. Several others took up this practice like Tom Tobin and Kit Carson.
Never saw any of the "Hollywood baloney" recorded of fur trade era folks carrying a knife in the middle of their back between the shoulder blades. Wouldn't that be a mess if you got dumped off your horse and landed on your back, which seems to be the normal position we end up in after a crash !!!
I'm sure we will see much comment on this subject.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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> I forget the exact date but back in the 1600's the British passed a law
> prohibiting the use of lead in pewter used for food service. I don't remember
> if that was the source of the term Britannia Metal.
>
> Of course there have been the unscrupulous in all periods of history but some
> of the problems with lead have been long known.
>
> If in doubt one of the home lead test kits on the market can confirm or deny
> the presence of lead in pewter as well as in glazes on pottery, or paint on
> walls. Many coffee cups from the Orient still offer a significant hazard.
>
> John...
John,
It seems that several of these TV programs (Steve & Norm) etc, are always worried about lead paint, even as late as the 20's and 30's paints. It's like you say we knew about it, yet it still keeps popping up.
In the communications business we still have unbelievable amounts of lead wrapped cable in the ground, vaults and in man holes. It's only been the last 15-20 years that we started to write jobs, to remove it and still no rubber goods- gloves, coveralls, etc. to remove "white" lead (in that bad of a condition) but it still holds air pressure in the case.
The same goes with other industries having it laying around, I picked up some really nice clean 6" X 8" X 3" lead bars that came from a melt down in one of our subs being taken apart at the Navy yard in San Diego a few years ago, the dealer claimed you won't glow ?? Paid 15 cents a pound.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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I have carried a large sticker in an over the shoulder rig for several years, have little use for a sheath knife and none for a hawk. It works for me. Very handy.
D
>
> Buck Conner Wrote:
>
> Lewis or was it Clark, carried a large knife over his shoulder instead of a hawk. Dennis Miles (on this list)does the same and could give you more information on what works with his testing of this method of carry.
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: screening for metal toxicity[OFF TOPIC]
Date: 02 Oct 1999 05:52:16 -0700
On Fri, 01 October 1999, Roy Parker wrote:
>
> Well, I hope somebody sees this before it makes it to the list and
> kills it. This was my standard rant and reply, which usually gets
> edited when I calm down some 12-24 hours later, and often times never
> posted. Hit the wrong key this time, and posted it to the list.
> Can't get it back. If Dean doesn't find this in time, the rest of you
> will be subjected to it.
>
> FWIW, no major apologies. Just said what I was thinking, but would
> have rephrased the 4-letter word parts. Probably would have rephrased
> other parts so as not to be so obnoxious. Anyway, unless Dean kills
> this, comments welcome via email, but understand that email becomes my
> property, and subject to reposting. If you have a problem with that,
> don't send email.
>
> Thanks, Texan, for your efforts. Hang your shingle in our lodge any
> time you want.
>
> Roy
>
>
>
>
>
> I've substituted XXXX for the person who last posted on this thread.
> Not all of the comments are necessarily his/hers, and I didn't want to
> blame anyone who might have a bit of innocence. However, if you're
> one of the ones who subscribe to the following idiotic theory, let us
> pray you have no children so the gene pool will die off with you.
> Please God, grant us small miracles, as we have enough fuckheads
> already.
>
> OK, I have lost track of some of this thread, but I THINK XXXX
> generated the note that generated my reply. XXXX, if I'm wrong, and
> you're not the writer, I humbly apologize for the following post. If
> you are the writer, I don't apologize in the slightest, as only an
> idiot or an ostrich with its head stuck in the sand could write drivel
> such as you did, and the ostrich could probably spell better.
>
> My comments begin....
>
> Speaking only for myself, I think safety items/issues such as the
> current discussion about copper cooking utensils (not just pots) is of
> sufficient importance that it should NOT be excluded from the main
> list.
>
> In fact, it should be a very high priority on this list. I find it
> offensive that XXXX even suggest taking it off the discussion list
> because it is not TPPC "Totally Period Politically Correct" Living
> History. Maybe XXXX doesn't want to know about ways of poisoning
> himself in pre-1840 style, but others of us have more of a life to
> live. Even Clinton is not this stupid.
>
> Texan made a great offer to all of us, one many of us might not be
> able to afford without this generous offer, and shouldn't have been
> handed a backhanded slap, let alone one up front. Texan should be
> lifted on our shoulders for trying to help us out. Instead, some
> folks on this list are taking cheap shots and saying take this off
> line because this topic of potential lead, copper, etc heavy metal
> poisoning is 'not traditional'.
>
> Bullshit!
>
> Texan, I'm very proud of you for continuing to post your offer in the
> face of one of these TPPC (henceforth known as tipsees) efforts at
> censorship. I
>
> Maybe I'm reading what XXXX wrote wrong, but I gather that XXXX
> considers anything non-period, regardless of whether other subscribers
> of this list might find it important or not, to be an 'off-topic'
> post.
>
> Frankly, I consider potential health warnings a lot more important
> than the proper spur to wear if you are interpreting a Texican from
> the 1840's, or the proper technique for turning deer brains into
> proper leather clothing (been there, done that, and it is a rather
> interesting topic).
>
> And I can't actually consider members of this list major brain troves
> when I offer them a free copy of the complete ledgers of cost of goods
> in New Orleans in 1836 and exactly two people take me up on it. I
> realize not everyone is interested in New Orleans, but wouldn't you
> have liked to known the wholesale price of powder back then? How about
> lead? Or the price of beaver?
>
> I say we should post full information about various health hazards,
> perhaps flag it 'OT' in the header for those who don't want to read it
> (make the tipsees (TPPC-Totally Period Politically Correct) happy -
> they can keep their heads in the sand), but put the info out there for
> those of us who are concerned about better ways to avoid lead and
> copper poisoning, anthrax, cancer, et al.
>
> Those who want to be tipsees don't have to read it, and can load up
> on lead, copper, jalapenos, cadmium, and any other heavy metal or
> other poison they so desire in blissful ignorance. This will be a
> hardship on the rest of the group in coming years since we will have
> to go to many more funerals. Will probably be worth it as the
> Darwinian weeding out of the totally insipid follows.
>
> The rest of us should back off and let the newsgroup/email list do
> it's thing, which is to inform subscribers of important stuff. Just
> because it is NOT important to me, doesn't mean it is NOT important to
> to someone else.
>
> I've been a member of this newslist for quite a few years, back even
> when Dean had to hand address some of the email because there was no
> solid forum across the net, and that was the only way he could ensure
> I got all the emails from the list. AOL was a dream in somebody's eye
> at the time, and the internet joke. The purpose then was a living
> history forum. It was NOT an AMM forum (separate list for that), but
> was dedicated to those interested in learning 'how' things were done
> in the old days. Yes, the emphasis was on learning from the Fur Trade
> in the Rockies, but skills and lessons from the RW and before were
> welcomed.
>
> As a former member of the Brigade of the American Revolution, now
> transplanted to the Republic of Texas (Hallaluja!), this was important
> to me. Things I had learned about the 1750's were allowed to be
> passed on to those who followed a trail 100 years later.
>
> Has this changed? Do we now have self-appointed moderators saying
> what can/cannot be posted? Do we have Dean Rudy appointed moderators
> doing the same? I ask this in all ignorance? If the rules for the
> newsgroup have changed, and I missed them, I want to know. Dean set
> the mail list up for us, and by using it, we agree to all restrictions
> (or none as the case may be) he sets. But it should be a level
> playing field.
>
> I mean, I find references to folks telling about stories of being
> drunk, disabled, disgusting on the emaillist, and nobody demanding
> they take these threads off line. I see jokes about Texas, and some
> of the boys from lesser states demanding that these posts be taken off
> line. And then I see Texan's posts, offering medical tests at actual
> laboratory cost that might save one of our friends lives, and some
> total absolute asshole licking Clinty wannabe joker demands THESE
> posts be taken off line as off topic.
>
> Never, in all this time, listening to all the diatribes that have come
> across my newsreader in all these years, have I ever read anything I
> find so offensive as this series of posts trying to shut Texan up,
> Am I overreacting? Perhaps. But I find the posts trying to silence
> her so offensive, I cannot keep silent.
>
> A question to the email list. Are you going to permit this to
> continue? Are you going to let some folks shout down what you post
> just because it is not what they want to hear............................................
_____________________________________
What is your problem Parker, we where trying to keep this down to a min. of crap, but as usual look what happens. As the lady said she would prefer to handle this off list because of personal issues each individual may have to deal with, that was the reason she gave her e-mail address.
No one is doing anything other than trying to make her wishes/life as easy as possible. I have been talking with her and she now is starting to realize what a project she has undertaken.
I told her she needs to collect at least postage and material costs, she has dropped her $75 up from charge to try and help, she doesn't need to loose any postage or other costs. I have told her to be sure she's not going to come up short on trying to help and just being a nice person.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "UPDATE" metal toxicity[OFF TOPIC]
Date: 02 Oct 1999 07:01:50 -0700
Members of this list and members of several other lists that have been in contact on this topic.
___________________________
Victoria has been kind enought to drop her up front charge of $75 and has made the offer to provide us with information and instructions in this manner, off_list. I will repeat OFF_LIST.
___________________________
Several things I have asked for, from her is:
Her cost for mailing these packets.
Any additional costs she may occure.
Make a simple question and answer form (we would fill out about our health, etc.).
When the results come back from the lab, a scheduled time period or appointment time frame for her to talk to each interested party. (she doesn't want to get to bogged down, so lets not tie her up 10 hours a day or all of her free time when not working at her job).
* Remember it's your nickel, you call her at your appointment time and any additional costs mentioned above are yours too.
___________________________
These few simple basic steps will save her time and no money out of her pocket, we should cover any costs and please don't be pushy, she has other things going on in her life just like you.
___________________________
As far as the response OFF_LIST, that seemed to offend one person, we have had (31) wanting the test and ( 0 ) remarks or comments on the NO side of the coin as of last night.
At this point Victoria's service is a go and she will give us a simple Q&A form on this list to start the ball rolling (probably the first of the week). Her mother and father are visiting this weekend and she told me she would contact me late Sunday evening.
After you have gotten your paperwork from her and have done the needed lab things and sent the required material to them with your payment for their service, you'll have to wait for the results.
Then you will be able to reply with your answers, comments, etc. to her at her e-mail as she has requested, once your lab tests have been returned to you. It will all be between you and her from this point on, depending on what is required and the findings from the report.
I hope that will answer most questions, this is all I know, anything else will have to be answered by Victoria, along with her e-mail address again for those that have deleted it by mistake.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
_____________________________
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: screening for metal toxicity[OFF TOPIC]
Date: 02 Oct 1999 07:39:35 -0700
Agreed Paul,
Seems there is at least one on every list or in every group !
Thanks Buck for stepping up and handling all the baloney and helping the lady with a process to make it a simple task if possible, she has taken on a serious issue. Your latest UPDATE will be helpfull and as stated we/each one of us covers his/her own costs.
Thanks Buck & Paul.
Turtle.
____________________________
On Sat, 02 October 1999, "Paul Jones" wrote:
>
> Roy, I agree with Buck. Moreover, whether on list or off, I am taken aback
> by the shrill level of your ranting in general and your deliberate
> crude/vulgar insults. Moderator or not, no list should have to deal with
> such nonsense. Civility is something valuable to this list, as it is to
> society in general. Perhaps this nice Lady's offer is coming at a good
> time, for a few of us here in Texas, at the least, as I gather that the
> toxic substances discussed can adversely affect those portions of the brain
> dealing with mature concepts of restraint, common sense and simple civility.
>
> Just my point of view---from a fellow Texan, who never chewed the toothpaste
> tubes or licked the flaking lead based paint off of his crib. Regards,
> Paul
Take care - we leave as friends,
Lee "Turtle" Boyer
Historical Advisor - Parks & Rec.
State College, Pennsylvania
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: screening for metal toxicity[OFF TOPIC]
Date: 02 Oct 1999 09:32:44 -0700
On Sat, 02 October 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> Agreed Paul,
>
> Seems there is at least one on every list or in every group !
>
> Thanks Buck for stepping up and handling all the baloney and helping the lady with a process to make it a simple task if possible, she has taken on a serious issue. Your latest UPDATE will be helpfull and as stated we/each one of us covers his/her own costs..............
Thanks Buck and all the others for helping this Lady in providing her service to us on this health issue. Agree that she lets us know the costs, she shouldn't have to eat any of it.
It seems like Buck mentioned before that the smarter we become, the more bad things we have done to ourselves in the past.
Roy may of had some of that toothpaste in the early years, can't suck them tubes boys.
"May the spirit be with you"
D.L."Concho" Smith
Livingston, MO.
Historical Coordinator - Missouri
___________________________________
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> In a message dated 10/1/99 2:32:28 AM EST, lnewbill@uidaho.edu writes:
>
> << Was the chain a common item? I've never seen a chain strap on spurs
> before, only leather. >>
> I have five books that show early spurs with chain in stead of leather
> straps. One is a set owned by George Washington that had silver chains. But
> without a picture of the spurs it is hard to say if they are correct. Never
> rust is stamped on many modern spurs so that is no indicator of age.
>
> Your humble servant
>
> C.T. Oakes
C.T. is correct, checked Colo. Historical Museum, Museum of the Fur Trade, Denver Natural History Museum and talked to a friend at the Museum of Man in Canada - all had a few spurs with chains. Several of the people I asked thought they where very common in the Rev War and possibily earier into the F&I War, mostly worn by officers from both side, but more a European item and then popular with the Americans.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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Subject: MtMan-List: Osborne Russell (Lengthy text)
Date: 03 Oct 1999 11:53:12 -0400
Hello the camp.
I've been awake since 5:00 a.m. PST. It occurred to me, as many things do before the sun comes up, that for many of us this site has become a kind of campfire where we congregate after a hard day's labor, a day of tedious labor, or the want of a kindred spirit.
I don't have anything to add about toxicity, copper pots or the ice man. What I do have to offer is something I conjured in my imagination. If you have read Russell's Journal of a Trapper, you may remember that he went to sea at 16 before he found his way West. Thinking about Russell and what his journal didn't tell us about that time in his life, this is what I imagined his life and motivation to be. It is an excerpt from my book (Across the Seasons) I have just written and hope to be published soon.
It is my desire to stoke the flames of this campfire, where I continually meet friends I never thought would be my privilege to meet, and hope you will read on:
. . . (Osborne Russell) It's amazing how a man's life can be reduced to a few sentences and it all seems so simple. Sixteen isn't such a young age for a man to go out on his own. It's only called running away from home when you go against your Father's wishes. It's one of the paths boys travel to become men. When I told my Father I wanted to go to sea he was thunderstruck. I'm not sure he wanted me to be a farmer, but I don't think he believed I had the gristle on me to take the hardknocks of a sailor's life."
. . . I grew up around water and I longed to go to sea. I haunted the waterfronts listening to the sailors tell of their adventures. Some of them were wounded, limping, missing a leg or an arm, or even blind, but their stories were thrilling about how they fought for their very lives as they battled the merciless sea. I would go to Portland and watch the beautiful ships glide in; they seemed to be flying into the harbor like great-winged birds."
. . . One day, unbeknownst to my family, I tied all my clothes in a bundle, kissed my Mother goodbye, and struck out to find a ship that would hire me. My heart swelled the first time we set out to sea, but it wasn't many more trips before I learned why my Father had wanted to spare me a seafarer's life. There were times we had nothing much to eat or drink. We had birds, a few shellfish, and a precious few sodden biscuits, no other bread stuffs, but to us they were dainties. Often the seas boiled with violent storms, we had to tie ourselves with ropes to keep from being swept overboard into the mouth of the sea. I tell you here in the mountains, I've been shot at by Indians, near starved, and near froze to death, but I've never been as lonely as when I'd awaken in the early morning and see the vast emptiness of an iron-grey sea. There were times the horizon was indistinguishable and it appeared we were sailing off into nothingness. While I worked during the day, or sto!
od watch at night, I thought about the beautiful countryside of Maine. I reconstructed, in great detail, every hill and field where I had played as a boy. It was on one of those lonely watches I decided there were many fields I had never entered, rivers with rapids and shallows I had not forded, and birds and animals I wanted to hold in the sights of my rifle. Stranded at sea I began to hear tales of the great West and of the Shining Mountains that rose so high they disappeared into the sky. I heard stories of the great rivers that had become roads to carry extraordinary men like Lewis and Clark to the far side of our country, and to another great ocean."
. . . One night, after a particularly bleak and troublesome voyage, I heard a siren's song and jumped ship in New York with the rest of the crew. I eventually wound up in Minnesota and Wisconsin, trapping for three years in the service of the Northwest Fur Trapping and Trading Company, but I guess you know all about that."
Respectfully submitted, because a goodly part of my research was lurking on this list,
> A coat of varnish would probably be the most correct for most trade guns. Too bad varnish is no longer available, Constantine might still offer one or two.
>
John,
I have a question about varnish per your statement about not being available. Not saying it is or isn't available (that's your business), just a question.
What is "Spar Varnish" used on marine items, water craft, etc., is it a spin-off or what ????
Thanks.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List:[OFF TOPIC] Possible Health Problems w/Metals In
Date: 03 Oct 1999 11:05:41 -0700
On Sun, 03 October 1999
MMembers of the Hist_list and several other lists,
I have tallied the responses and it is (62) for continue, and (1) I'm not sure ???
Just talked to Victoria on the phone about this topic, and she will follow this e-mail with her message. If you have a problem or complaint contact me and I'll pass the word on to her, she is very busy and would prefer I would be the sounding board !!
Will repeat one more time:
NEGATIVE PROBLEMS AND COMPLAINTS - CONTACT: buck.conner@uswestmail.net
LET'S KEEP POSITIVE, SHE WILLING TO HELP US AND WILL NEED OUR HELP ALSO. SHE WILL GET INTO WHAT SHE NEEDS FROM US AND A FEW OF HER IDEAS FOR FUTURE MUZZLE LOADERS.
Victoria I have opened the door as requested, it's show time to folks that want to know what they have possibly done to themselves, and what they can do to help themselves in the future.
Thanks everyone.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
_____________________________
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C.T. is correct, checked Colo. Historical Museum, Museum of the Fur Trade, Denver Natural History Museum and talked to a friend at the Museum of Man in Canada - all had a few spurs with chains. Several of the people I asked thought they where very common in the Rev War and possibily earier into the F&I War, mostly worn by officers from both side, but more a European item and then popular with the Americans............
>
In research, nothing is "black" or "white" to make your report on, because someone will find that damn "gray" area - that kills you everytime.
Take care - we leave as friends,
Lee "Turtle" Boyer
Historical Advisor - Parks & Rec.
State College, Pennsylvania
___________________________
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> Trade Guns were made as cheaply as possible. No more time and material was wasted in finishing than absolutely necessary.
>
> I seem to recollect something somewhere a long time ago that suggested they may have only been shipped with a light coat of shellac. It's possible the finishes we now see were added by the owners.
>
John,
Not all of them where cheap guns, some had some pretty nice woods and finishes. Many at the Museum of the Fur Trade granted are of the cheaper variety being mid and western guns, but I have seen some really good trade guns that where early and traded to eastern tribes (may have been more choosey in what the would take in trade).
For example Buck Conner's Dad had several TG's that where know to have been western guns (according to Hanson) and a pair of early pre 1810-1813 eastern trade guns, even that old, wood shrinkage, etc. one can tell they where better quality than their counter parts.
I'll have to read Buck's article again in T&LR and then check his personal page on finishes of trade guns, can't remember how deep he got on his research information about them. If you want to see this information for yourself read at: http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html
"May the spirit be with you"
D.L."Concho" Smith
Livingston, MO.
Historical Coordinator - Missouri
___________________________________
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List:[OFF TOPIC] Possible Health Problems w/Metals In
Date: 03 Oct 1999 12:22:18 -0700
Folks,
Lets limit smart remarks like the last two characters (love them like brothers), but this is serious business, yours and mine.
Please make a file as Victoria has suggested, I call mine "Health Issues", that's up to you. If this information is filed as suggested there's less chance of "deleting" by mistake. Who knows, as time passes we may all want a refresher course and being filed - you will have the information.
Thanks for your time.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
_____________________________
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Subject: MtMan-List: [OFF TOPIC - ISSUE #0] Health ISSUES W/Metals.
Date: 04 Oct 1999 07:54:36 -0700
ISSUE #0
Folks,
As mentioned before please make a file as Victoria has suggested, I call mine "Health Issues", that's up to you. If this information is filed as suggested there's less chance of "deleting" by mistake. Who knows, as time passes we may all want a refresher course and being filed - you will have the information.
[OFF TOPIC - ISSUE #0] .. and so on, changing the issue number with each new e-mail.
In doing this we can, when talking to her refer to the ISSUE # that we are concerned with, and in turn she can refer to that one or another one when talking about this subject with you. This may make e-mails, phone calls, etc. flow a little easier in both directions.
File this e-mail in your new folder as [ISSUE #0].
Thanks for your time.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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Some of you are not on Dean's Hist_List, there is an important issue being discuss about "lead poisioning" along with tin, copper, brass, etc. that we all have contact with. This person that uses the handle "texan" (Victoria) has come forth with an offer for testing "metals" in our systems.
Enclosed below are a series of e-mails with her comments and what she can do to help as far as testing and what information she has, she has dropped her normal $75 up front fee for talking with us. If you decide to consider being tested your cost would be whatever the lab cost is, if interested read on.
The reason I'm interested is I use to offer "period correct" lead bars for sale, with handling them, casting them (200-300 pounds) within the last year, plus the normal handling of lead when shooting and other metals in our sport, this got my attention.
Some of the things she has mentioned in other e-mails rang a
bell, weight gain, hair loss, etc.
If not on the hist_list you may want to get on just to follow her ISSUE updates.
Buck Conner
AMM Baker Party / Colorado
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
#1
I not only wanted to know how to become skilled at shooting, but all the aspects of how guns are made, bullet making etc.
Looks like I'll get my wish from offers from several of you kind folks.
Can't get involved with making recommendations without knowing my subject thoroughly.
My personal experience with mercury and lead poisoning came from growing up in Houston on the south side where we got toxic air whichever the way the wind was blowing. My body preferentially stored these metals along with the petrochemicals.
I had an account at a major international hospital lab until the last year and a half. I had been cutting down on taking new clients because I started writing and became too small of an account for the lab. I've started the ball rolling again to open up an account at a lab since there are going to be some of you that will need to go further with this.
I would like to call you and talk over some things that I have thought I could do to be more of service to the group. I would like to throw some things out to you to see what you think. I talk much more easily than I write.
Victoria
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
#2
Re: MtMan-List: "UPDATE" metal toxicity[OFF TOPIC]
Members of this list and members of several other lists that have been in contact on this topic.
___________________________
Victoria has been kind enought to drop her up front
charge of $75 and has made the offer to provide us
with information and instructions in this manner,
off_list. I will repeat OFF_LIST.
___________________________
Several things I have asked for, from her is:
Her cost for mailing these packets.
Any additional costs she may occure.
Make a simple question and answer form (we would fill out about our health, etc.).
When the results come back from the lab, a scheduled time period or appointment time frame for her to talk to each interested party. (she doesn't want to get to bogged down, so lets not tie her up 10 hours a day or all of her free time when not working at her job).
* Remember it's your nickel, you call her at your appointment time and any additional costs mentioned above are yours too.
___________________________
These few simple basic steps will save her time and no money out of her pocket, we should cover any costs and please don't be pushy, she has other things going on in her life just like you.
___________________________
As far as the response OFF_LIST, that seemed to offend one person, we have had (31) wanting the test and ( 0 ) remarks or comments on the NO side of the coin as of last night.
At this point Victoria's service is a go and she will give us a simple Q&A form on this list to start the ball rolling (probably the first of the week). Her mother and father are visiting this weekend and she told me she would contact me late Sunday evening.
After you have gotten your paperwork from her and have done the needed lab things and sent the required material to them with your payment for their service, you'll have to wait for the results.
Then you will be able to reply with your answers, comments, etc. to her at her e-mail as she has requested, once your lab tests have been returned to you. It will all be between you and her from this point on, depending on what is required and the findings from the report.
I hope that will answer most questions, this is all I know, anything else will have to be answered by Victoria, along with her e-mail address again for those that have deleted it by mistake.
Later,
Buck Conner
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
#3
Re: MtMan-List:[OFF TOPIC] Possible Health Problems w/Metals
Members of the Hist_list and several other lists,
I have tallied the responses and it is (62) for
continue, and (1) I'm not sure ???
Just talked to Victoria on the phone about this topic, and she will follow this e-mail with her message. If you have a problem or complaint contact me and I'll pass the word on to her, she is very busy and would prefer I would be the sounding board !!
Will repeat one more time:
NEGATIVE PROBLEMS AND COMPLAINTS - CONTACT:
buck.conner@uswestmail.net
LET'S KEEP POSITIVE, SHE WILLING TO HELP US AND WILL NEED OUR HELP ALSO. SHE WILL GET INTO WHAT SHE NEEDS FROM US AND A FEW OF HER IDEAS FOR FUTURE MUZZLELOADERS.
Victoria I have opened the door as requested, it's show time to folks that want to know what they have possibly done to themselves, and what they can do to help themselves in the future.
Thanks everyone.
Later,
Buck Conner
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
#4
Hi Everybody,
Thanks Buck for making this official announcement and setting the ground rules.
When I made the offer to do toxic metal screening, it came straight from my heart. It was after that, that I began to realize what a project I had started! So bear with me as I put a plan together.
The reason that this issue is so important to me is that I almost died of heavy metal poisoning-the slow insidious kind with no APPARENT exposure in the past. I'm still recovering 15 years after the diagnosis.
The next post from me will be an introductory data sheet on lead toxicity in our environment. My main objective as a health consultant is to teach people how to take personal responsibility for their health. That necessitates disseminating information. It would be a good idea to keep my posts in a special file to be referred to again and again. You never know when I will give a pop quiz!!<G>
I'm working on a health history questionaire. Give me a few days.
Victoria
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
#5
Folks,
As mentioned before please make a file as Victoria has suggested, I call mine "Health Issues", that's up to you. If this information is filed as suggested there's less chance of "deleting" by mistake. Who knows, as time passes we may all want a refresher course and being filed - you will have the information.
[OFF TOPIC - ISSUE #0] .. and so on, changing the issue number with each new e-mail.
In doing this we can, when talking to her refer to the ISSUE # that we are concerned with, and in turn she can refer to that one or another one when talking about this subject with you. This may make e-mails, phone calls, etc. flow a little easier in both directions.
File this e-mail in your new folder as [ISSUE #0].
Thanks for your time.
Later,
Buck Conner
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
#6
Hi Buck,
I've been paying more attention to John Kramer's posts. I can see what you mean about him. I think he would be a wonderful support person to the research team on the lead project. Let me know when you have introduced the idea to him and forwarded to him my post to Mike.
I've been continuing to work out the details for the testing. I'm getting a little excited about it all.
What I want to do is to start doing the testing, and then
work on setting Buck's Apothecary up to stock specific nutrients that will support the guys as they expose themsleves to all manner of toxins!!!! Then I can just be in the background to be called on as needed.
What I thought I could do is put out bulletins on health issues related to the toxic exposures. There would be several of them. Then the guys will learn why they need to get the supplements that you and I will work on for the apothecary. You could put the bulletins in your catalogue as
references for the supplements. How does that sound? I want to set things up so that it can run on its own. .
The guys will probably have health questions that I haven't thought of and if they apply to everyone, I will make the answers availble to all.
If you have some other ideas on how to do this, let
me know.
I'm grateful that Jesus has given me the opportunity
guys.
Victoria
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
#7
Hi Buck,
We are on the same page. I'm glad you sent this out as I was just fixing to put out the first data sheet.
I had it titled "Lead Data Sheet #1".
How does this look?
[OT Health Issue#1-Lead Data Sheet#1]
The next one will be:
[OT Health Issue#2-Hair Analysis]
or something like that and so on.
Victoria
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
This was sent my mistake, instead of to me, no problem, I will answer her questions as I would yours. Those that have dealt with me will tell you I don't have a problem with telling it the way it is.
________________________
#6
Hi Buck,
I've been paying more attention to John Kramer's posts. I can see what you mean about him. I think he would be a wonderful support person to the research team on the lead project. Let me know when you have introduced the idea to him and forwarded to him my post to Mike.
_____________________________
* I talked to Victoria yestersday on the phone, she asked who would be good for back reference and any additional thoughts on this subject. I suggested John Kramer and Mike Rock - members of this list with lots of personal experience on the subject. I was to e-mail them and ask what they thought about this, but Victoria has let the cat out of the bag. So buys what do you think !!
_____________________________
I've been continuing to work out the details for the testing. I'm getting a little excited about it all.
What I want to do is to start doing the testing, and then
work on setting Buck's Apothecary up to stock specific nutrients that will support the guys as they expose themsleves to all manner of toxins!!!! Then I can just be in the background to be called on as needed.
_____________________________
* This is not a plot or any baloney like that to make a buck, if any of you are interested in stocking a few supplies, that's fine. She was thinking that with supplying edibles and camp items it would kind of fit right in with Clark & Sons Mercantile. With my regular job and C&SM, I am snowed.
I don't think it would be real period from looking at it that way, maybe better for a shooting supplier like Log Cabin Shop, etc. to handle a few health aids, seeing how they are the ones that are causing the problem in a round about way, just a thought. What do you folks think, I would be interested in your opinions.
_____________________________
What I thought I could do is put out bulletins on health issues related to the toxic exposures. There would be several of them. Then the guys will learn why they need to get the supplements that you and I will work on for the apothecary. You could put the bulletins in your catalogue as
references for the supplements. How does that sound?
_____________________________
* This would depend on who was handling the safety items, as to who would send out safety bulletins, I know we produce only one catalog issue per year and put out four price changes a year, that change with catalog purchases. This is the same method that most suppliers do in their catalog issues, with the cost of mailing single pieces and not being "bulk", most suppliers would frown on it. This type of business, cast out lay, etc. would take some serious thought to who ever took on this item.
For those that have started a file "Health Issues", put this one in there as a [ISSUE 0], this gives you everything we have talked about to date. From now on we should be receiving updates in the form of :
[OT Health Issue#1-Lead Data Sheet#1]
[OT Health Issue#2-Hair Analysis]
and so on, any questions about the above please feel free to
e-mail me, hope this didn't get to long. All we need to do is hear from Victoria with her suggestions and update on ISSUE's, and what John K. and Mike R. think about helping, along with anyone that can furnish information to this subject.
Thanks again.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
_____________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
> * I talked to Victoria yestersday on the phone, she asked who would be good for backup reference and any additional thoughts on this subject. I suggested John Kramer and Mike Rock - members of this list with lots of personal experience on the subject..........
**
Have to agree, both are very good at research and very detailed, but let's not forget others on this list with valuable information.
**
> _____________________________
>
> I've been continuing to work out the details for the testing. I'm getting a little excited about it all.
> What I want to do is to start doing the testing, and then
> work on setting Buck's Apothecary up to stock specific nutrients that will support the guys as they expose themsleves to all manner of toxins!!!! Then I can just be in the background to be called on as needed.
> _____________________________
> I don't think it would be real period from looking at it that way, maybe better for a shooting supplier like Log Cabin Shop, etc. to handle a few health aids, seeing how they are the ones that are causing the problem in a round about way...............
> _____________________________
**
Have to agree with you again, know how busy you are, and your idea of a supplier of shooting supplies, cast balls, molds, etc. would be the likely place to handle such items, would think they would jump at it to show their concern.
**
>
> You could put the bulletins in your catalogue as
> references for the supplements. How does that sound?
>
**
E-mail will work for now when getting started, the supplier would have to consider UPDATE BULLETINS.
**
____________________________
>
> For those that have started a file "Health Issues", put this one in there as a [ISSUE 0], this gives you everything we have talked about to date. From now on we should be receiving updates in the form of :
>
> [OT Health Issue#1-Lead Data Sheet#1]
>
> [OT Health Issue#2-Hair Analysis]
>
**
This is a good plan, have made my file as suggested, thanks folks.
**
Take care - we leave as friends,
Lee "Turtle" Boyer
Historical Advisor - Parks & Rec.
State College, Pennsylvania
___________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
This has the signs of becoming quite a project - what you and Victoria, John and Mike have said so far is what is needed for each person to make his/her mind up to what they want to do, at least they have the information, that's a plus.
> I don't think it would be real period from looking at it that way, maybe better for a shooting supplier like Log Cabin Shop, etc. to handle a few health aids, seeing how they are the ones that are causing the problem in a round about way, just a thought. What do you folks think, I would be interested in your opinions.
>
Agreed a 110%, what about the big manufacturers of the guns, melting pots, moulds, etc. - they make the bucks and just sit back and the hell with any responsiblity as far as warnings or methods to lower the danger of using these metals, etc. Haven't seen any warnings since the "agent orange" problem after the fact - typical.
Thanks for the alert and keep the information coming, got it filed as suggested.
"May the spirit be with you"
D.L."Concho" Smith
Livingston, MO.
Historical Coordinator - Missouri
___________________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
> This has the signs of becoming quite a project - what you and Victoria, John and Mike have said so far is what is needed for each person to make his/her mind up to what they want to do, at least they have the information.........
___________________________________
Hey, as much lead as you and Turtle have been around, take this to heart and really look into this and the blood tests, I'm going to have a "blood test" and do the "hair tests".
Then make my own mind up to which direction I should go with, and one will double check the other to a point from what I have read - good information for anyone in this sport.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
_____________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
> Hey, as much lead as you and Turtle have been around, take this to heart and really look into this and the blood tests, I'm going to have a "blood test" and do the "hair tests".
>
> Then make my own mind up to which direction I should go with, and one will double check the other to a point from what I have read - good information for anyone in this sport.
> Later,
> Buck Conner
Following with much interest gang.
Thanks
Take care - we leave as friends,
Lee "Turtle" Boyer
Historical Advisor - Parks & Rec.
State College, Pennsylvania
___________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
> Visited the library last night & stumbled across something that may have introduced lead to our systems long ago. In a book called "Boys Toys of the '50's & '60's" -- a collection of reprinted Sears toy catalogs, there was a toy soldier making set with melting pot, molds & -- you guessed it -- lead as the material. Anybody have one of these sets as a kid? Just another example of how our past ignorance can come back to haunt us.
>
> NM
I read somewhere years ago, that in colonial times a common practice for making dentures was to use "lead sheet" to make the impressions of the jaw ! Reason for using "lead" was because it was easy to work with for this molding practice. Wonder if old George Washington had that done when being fitted for his wooden store boughts.
This wouldn't have had the exposure or continued contact the toy's would have had on the masses. But like you said "past ignorance can come back to haunt us".
"May the spirit be with you"
D.L."Concho" Smith
Livingston, MO.
Historical Coordinator - Missouri
___________________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
> > Visited the library last night & stumbled across something that may have introduced lead to our systems long ago. In a book called "Boys Toys of the '50's & '60's" -- a collection of reprinted Sears toy catalogs, there was a toy soldier making set with melting pot, molds & -- you guessed it -- lead as the material. Anybody have one of these sets as a kid? Just another example of how our past ignorance can come back to haunt us.
> >
> > NM
>
> I read somewhere years ago, that in colonial times a common practice for making dentures was to use "lead sheet" to make the impressions of the jaw ! Reason for using "lead" was because it was easy to work with for this molding practice. Wonder if old George Washington had that done when being fitted for his wooden store boughts.
>
> This wouldn't have had the exposure or continued contact the toy's would have had on the masses. But like you said "past ignorance can come back to haunt us".
>
> "May the spirit be with you"
> D.L."Concho" Smith
Hey,
Turtle said you where on the road to his place, change your mine !
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
_____________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
> Turtle said you where on the road to his place, change your mine !
>
> Later,
> Buck Conner
Buck,
Concho arrived about daylight today, drove straight through, will rest and has an interview on Friday morning with my director, surprise. Our department needs someone with his background to work the Ft. Pitt area.
Take care - we leave as friends,
Lee "Turtle" Boyer
Historical Advisor - Parks & Rec.
State College, Pennsylvania
___________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Subject: MtMan-List: [OFF TOPIC} Health ISSUES W/Metals.
Date: 06 Oct 1999 08:49:29 -0700
> Buck,
> Concho arrived about daylight today, drove straight through, will rest and has an interview on Friday morning with my director, surprise. Our department needs someone with his background to work the Ft. Pitt area.
>
> Lee "Turtle" Boyer
Sorry should have used [OFF TOPIC] would have e-mailed off list but didn't know where his original message came from - thus used "reply".
See folks if your retired you can pick and choose where you want to work in the "living history" field, these two have been doing this for several years now. Henry Crawford "HBC" on this list seems to be one that stays for longer periods at one location, like him get the education, experience, and follow what you like, these boys have, lucky dogs.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
_____________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
> <DIV>Buck, I read you article on wilderness plants (damn good) which prompts me
> to ask this following question regarding the consumption of "acorn meal".</DIV>
> <DIV>1. Can "any" acorn be used for "meal" when properly leached of its
> tannins?</DIV>
> <DIV>2. Can acorns from "Oregon White Oak", which may be a-kin to "scrub oak" be
> used for "meal"?</DIV>
> <DIV>á</DIV>
> <DIV>It's been a bumper year for acorns here in northern Cal. after El Nino
> (last year) and weáhare acorns the size of hens eggs.</DIV>
> <DIV>á</DIV>
> <DIV>I'd like to make some "flour" for bread (or whatever) if possible.</DIV>
> <DIV>John Funk</DIV>
John,
As they say, "I'll go straight to the horses mouth" and ask Mr. LaVelle what you would like to know, he teaches these "wild edible classes", so we'll put him on the spot. Like Henry said earlier tonight, "2 hour test, pick up your pencils....".
I'll see him tomorrow at work and will get you an answer.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
_____________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
> "pinking" cuts on alot of things, including a the edge of a old powder horn I have. I think Tom Tobins' coat might have some of that on it..................
"pinking" or "sawtooth cuts", believe that was just explained earlier. Yes I have seen Tom Tobin's coat and Kit Carson's coat, from the workmanship, style, etc. - Hanson and yours truly really think they where both made by the same person or persons. The sewing, tanning, and blanket are both alike, but back to the original question. The "sawtooth cuts" where done with a pair of scissors or sharp knife, not "pinking shears", the reason is if looking at the length of cut, angle and size of each "pinking", they are close to the same size, but vary just a little.
Charley felt a pattern was held on the leather, then cut with regular scissors or a knife, the material would shift one way or the other ("grow" a term that was used in the leather workers industry, where depending on the texture, thickness, etc. - the leather would change the size of a pattern produced when using this cutting method). The modern "pinking shear" changed that, thus having more correct to size patterns, hope this makes sense.
Take some old scraps in different textures and thickness and try it, you'll see what I'm saying, not much difference, but different in size when compared to a sample cut with a "pinking shear". Plus one other important thing is when looking at the inner point of the cut material you could see on several that the cut when into the main body - further or past the other side of the "V", showing it was cut singlely.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
_____________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
> "southwestern" in style, with inset wool diamonds along with the pinked
> edges. I'm not sure if this is the "Tom Tobin" jacket, but if so.................
Not Tobin's coat, it is still in the care of his family as of three years ago. Several of us found the coat on display twenty plus years ago in Durango CO, called Hansen about it. The following year drove Charley from Loveland CO to Durango to visit with Tom Tobin's grandson (passed on a year or two later), he worked at the small museum where the coat was displayed. Charley talked until blue in the face trying to get it for the Fur Trade Museum. never got the job done.
OFF TOPIC
Kit Carson and Tom Tobin's kids where married, some have written that Carson and Tobin where cousins. I for one had read this and took it as true, now doing an article for the T&LR and Baker web site about Tobin and his adventures, have collected a pile of information from newspaper articles, have found not related at all, just the link with their children.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
_____________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Subject: MtMan-List: Osborne Russell's Death 1892 or 1865?
Date: 07 Oct 1999 20:18:42 -0400
5:00 p.m. PST
I was talking to Lanney this week about where Osborne Russell is buried. Many of you may remember that he died in a county hospital in Placerville, CA and was buried in a common, unmarked grave. Lanney asked me how old he was when he died and I said 51.
I went back and looked at Aubrey Haines, Editor, introduction in Journal of a Trapper and Haines says that Russell died in Placerville but died in 1892 citing a death notice that appeared in the Placerville Mountain Democrat in September, 1892:
Death Notice: at the County Hospital, August 26, 1892, Osborn Russel (Judge), a native of Maine, aged 78 years.
I started wondering where I got my date and when I consulted my research I found I had gotten the 1865 date from the Dictionary of American Biography. Thinking that Haines would not have made such a mistake, I went to the library today and found a second source confirming the 1865 date, The American Biographical Dictionary, Historical Volume.
Has any one noticed this before? If you have other references available will you check and see which date you find and post me at Wind1838@aol.com.
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amounts of food needed (while in camp).
Date: 07 Oct 1999 20:24:23 -0400
5:30 p.m. PST
I really liked Buck's post on measuring rations and the items and quantities he takes when he gets on the ground. This summer I found a small catalog by Blue Heron Mercantile Leatherstocking Supply BluHeron48@aol.com.
Their daily rations are taken from the French and Indian War period but they are similar:
Cornmeal or oats 2 handfuls
Peas or beans 2 handfuls
Parched corn 2 handfuls
Dried meat 3-6 pieces (venison, beef, fish)
Dried fruit 1-2 handfuls (apples, peaches, raisins, pumpkin or combination)
Small red potatoes 2-3 each
Small onions 1 each
Maple or muscavado sugar 1-2 Tb
Salt 1/2 t
Peppercorns 4-10 each
Coffee 1-2 handfuls
(Alternate) Chocolate 1/2 - 1 full cake or tea 1-2 Tb.
The company is owned by Jim and Christine Jacobs. Their small catalog is available at no charge by request.
At 30 Sep 1999 10:49:16 -0700, you wrote:
>
>On Wed, 29 September 1999, R Lahti wrote:
>
>>
>> > Cap,
>> > I usually figure a cupped hand-full of:
>> >
>> > corn meal (per person)mixed with Hanava sugar,
>> > wild rice (same measurement per person),
>> > barley-pearled (same measurement per person),
>> > split peas (same measurement per person),
>> > fruit [dried apples or peaches](same measurement per person),
>> > dried meat strips broken into 3" pieces (same measurement per person),
>> > parched corn w/local nuts (same measurement per person),
>> > tea (same measurement per person, lasts for 3-4 days) a little on the weak side last day.
>> > _____________________________
>> >
>> > This has worked for a 5 day outing, moving around camp, scouting, etc. but only lasts about 3 hard days of paddling (hard work will use up your supplies very fast).
>> > _____________________________
>>
>> Buck,
>>
>> That's a bit more varied a list of ingredients that I or my fellows
>> carry. Might we impose on you as to how you utilize those items in meals
>> over the course of a weekend or week's period of time, as in recipe's
>> and for which meals and how many meals, etc.? I remain..
>>
>> YMOS
>> Capt. Lahti'
>______________________________________________
>Cap.,
>
>Lets start with the measurement for a "cupped hand-full"
> = ( 1) measuring cup.
>
>This doesn't sound like much, I agree, but remember most dried edibles do swell when water is added. Rice, barley and peas will double in size or amount prepared.
>
>Most of us (not all) can go with less food from a few days to several weeks without any problem - doctors will tell you that the amount we eat regularly is a mind-set in most cases, we can do with less and would probably do better weight and health wise anyway.
>
>We try to eat two small regular meals daily, gathering or foraging for edibles in our short trips around camp when scouting game or looking at the area. When you get in a mind-set of watching for edibles as you make your scouts, it's surprising what you find, even if not hunting for squirrel, rabbits or flying foul. Wild edibles are everwhere it's just the problem of figuring out what your looking at.
>Working around water is always a good place for small plants that are edible, as well as the little crawl fish, fish and small animals getting a drink. I think you are getting the idea or already do this in your normal outing experiences.
>
>I have a good friend that I wrote an article about a few years ago in the T&LR journal Dr. Jerry LaVelle, he's an expert at foraged edibles in the Rockies, takes a small frying pan, buffalo grease, period fishing kit and he's off for the weekend. His wife gets a little rattled about his limited resources, but he uses what is available at hand, cat-tail flour for bread (bannock), has different plant leaves for a salad and so on, she's good for about two weekends like this a year. But it can be done, so she goes to prove that she's a tough as he is !!!! I wish I had the mind-set, the ability or guts to believe enough in myself to do this as much as he has.
>
>Morning meal:
>corn meal w/Havana Brown sugar,(Havana Brown is an old sugar [less costly than white sugar in the colonial days] have switch to blue corn - better taste) 1/2 cup per person with water, a few small pieces of fruit and small amount of tea (save the tea leaves), (forgot to put down two hand-fulls of corn flour last night), use a 1/2 cup per person of flour to make "bannock" bread (will produce a loaf per say the size of a regular hot dog). Surprisingly this will satisfy you, no matter what your brain says.
>
>Aftrenoon snack:
>some parched corn, a little fruit and whatever you may find in your travels.
>
>Evening meal:
>with a little testing you will be able to judge the amount of rice or barley needed to make a small portion, and not waste anything. We have used mixed small amount of wild rice, barley-pearled, split peas and a little jerky (changing the meal of one or two items) to make a stew, make with a little more water than what your wife would use - fills you up with the broth. Use your used tea leaves for a mild tea flavor. Use any left overs and try and eat late in the evening (going to bed on a full belly).
>
>Don't forget what you have foraged during the day that can be prepared to supplement your evening or morning meal. Our biggest problem seems to be mind-set that we are going to starve, hell you'll die from lack of water long before you'll starve.
>
>An old friend (in his mid 70s') had a heart attack, had been very active all his farming life, he refused any medical care when he found it was possible he would not walk again, his doctor respected his wishes and had him taken home. I would visit him in the evenings, he refused food and liquids and it took him 14 days to die. The lack of liquid is what shut him down, he only lost a few pounds in that period.
>
>So the chance of you doing great harm on a weekend or a week from the lack of food is really not a major problem according to most doctors, unless you have medical problems, special medication, etc. that may require you to use with food.
>
>But do make sure you keep liquids in your system, plus a good drank of water is some what filling by it's self.
>
>This all sounds great, right. Well it's easier to write or tell it - than when packing for that adventure, you'll find yourself cheating and adding this and that - just in case. You'll stop and think and remember that first hunting trip (a day long) and all the extra stuff you took that Dad told you wasn't needed, well just in case.
>
>The big thing Cap. is do some testing the night the wife had to work late, make up a meal, simple - small in amount, bottom line is testing brother. With your experience you'll have know problem, it's just that mind-set that we all fight with. I'm always packing and unpacking different amounts, if you take just so much - small amount of food, and leave out "the just in case" factor. Then your options are get along with what you got and start foraging.
>
>I wrote Bill Klesinger (web master) for the Jim Baker Party web site, and he will put that article on "Edibles of the Rockies" on the site this weekend if everything goes OK. This may give you some ideas about foraging and what the wild plants have to offer each and everyone of us.
>
>Keep in touch friends.
>
>
>
>Later,
>Buck Conner
>
>AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
>Aux Ailments de Pays!
>_____________________________
>
>Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
There's no need to make an apology to me, I just figured your where having a bad day. Have gone off the deep end more than anyone on this list at times. We're here to air our thoughts and hang together with like interests, take care.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amounts of food needed (while in camp).
Date: 07 Oct 1999 22:01:02 -0700
> I really liked Buck's post on measuring rations and the items and quantities he takes when he gets on the ground. This summer I found a small catalog by Blue Heron Mercantile Leatherstocking Supply BluHeron48@aol.com.
>
Thank you for the comments, Jim and Chris are nice folks, Blue Heron and Clark & Sons - Mercantile's help to fill each others needs. We both have special sources that the other doesn't have and we make trades. For example I sold my "lead bar" business to Jim a few months ago, many of the period journals will touch on that in their new issues along with a little history on the lead business in the New World.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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> > Does anyone know if there was quilts used in the mountains from about
> > 1765-1840. Thanks all and God bless.
According to an old flyer from Bent's Fort, and another from Ft. St. Vrain, there where quilts owned by the Bent brothers and St.Vrain at both locations. May want to check supply lists from St.Louis or some of the small towns around there for supplying quilts as a home business. There are several quilt web sites that have good information if you do a "search" on your system.
I am in the process within in a few months of getting more into this area in reseacrh as I have a half dozen family quilts that date from the early 1800's up to the Civil War. Trying to fine acturate price values, etc.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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> I have a couple nice tin cups but they are new, bright, and shiney. Is there
> any way to get them dull and old looking? I've tried whisky, beer, and even
> coffee, inside and out, and they still shine.... scares the critters outta
> camp!
--------------------
I have used household - clothes wsshing Clorex on any bright metal, tin, gun parts, barrels - rub on let set for an hour then take cold gun blue with a cotton swab - wipe over Clorex. This gives a modeled appearance, wash with warm soapy water. Repeat if you want it darker, usually one treatment works, looks like an item that has a few years of service. Like Lanney said don't use on the inside of your cup.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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> Any Food, Medicinal, or "Spiriatual" use of it out
> there ?
> George
--------------------
George,
Sage (salvia,esp.S.officinalis) is used for all of the above, aromatic grayish-green leaves used for seasoning in cooking and preparation of edibles. Used as a Native American healing herb and in several different healings (Spiriatual), found in many of the sweat lodges in our area.
Many of the Ute have sage hung over their front doors even today, 25 years ago when dealing with the public as a repairman would find when entering these homes a small fire burning with dried green pine needles and sage (got to really like the smell). If invited to be seated, often the host (Native American) would burn dried green pine needles and sage in an ash tray while we talked, this was considered to be an honor for the guest and it was.
On another note; sage - is an elderly man noted for his wisdom, knowledge and judgement, such as Sitting Bull (Native American), Oliver Wendell Holmes (white) - both considered a sage. Webster's.
Putting both together it makes sense doesn't it.
Try sage when cooking meat, sprinkle a small amount and let it cook - adds a mild taste pleasing to your taste buds.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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> Sage (salvia,esp.S.officinalis) is used for all of the above, aromatic grayish-green leaves used for seasoning in cooking and preparation of edibles. Used as a Native American healing herb and in several different healings (Spiriatual), found in many of the sweat lodges in our area.
> Try sage when cooking meat, sprinkle a small amount and let it cook - adds a mild taste pleasing to your taste buds.
>
Also, sage will cure thrush in a newborn baby's mouth. Make a strong
tea of sage and swab it on the cottony patches of thrush with a Qtip.
You may need to do this a couple of times a day for a couple of days,
but the thrush will disappear. The baby will hate this, as it tastes
awful, but just hold the young'un firmly and do it anyway. I've used
> > Any Food, Medicinal, or "Spiriatual" use of it out
> > there ?
> > George
> --------------------
> George,
>
> Sage (salvia,esp.S.officinalis) is used for all of the above, aromatic grayish-green leaves used for seasoning in cooking and preparation of edibles. Used as a Native American healing herb and in several different healings (Spiriatual), found in many of the sweat lodges in our area.
>
> Many of the Ute have sage hung over their front doors even today, 25 years ago when dealing with the public as a repairman would find when entering these homes a small fire burning with dried green pine needles and sage (got to really like the smell). If invited to be seated, often the host (Native American) would burn dried green pine needles and sage in an ash tray while we talked, this was considered to be an honor for the guest and it was.
>
> On another note; sage - is an elderly man noted for his wisdom, knowledge and judgement, such as Sitting Bull (Native American), Oliver Wendell Holmes (white) - both considered a sage. Webster's.
>
> Putting both together it makes sense doesn't it.
>
> Try sage when cooking meat, sprinkle a small amount and let it cook - adds a mild taste pleasing to your taste buds.
>
Don't forget making tea, sore throat, headache, etc.
Hey Brother Buck, new job, new location and eating dinner with the Turtle and his Mrs., pretty neat, I can beg off his wife now all the time - good cook and nice looking, tell the kids old war stories - what a life.
"Later - out of camp"
D.L."Concho" Smith
Historical Advisor - Parks & Rec.
Dorsey Run, Pennsylvania
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> I read the line on daily food rations and wondered how a mountain man would carry the grub. Would all of it be in clothe bags, or what other period containers would he use? I?m not on horseback, so would have to pack it.
> I made some small sacks out of osnaburg clothe, with jute ties, but not sure how authentic that would be.......
> Steve
__________________________
Hey Camp,
The bags or sacks you have made will work just fine for dry edibles, a cotton liner will keep fine flours and meals from coming through the osnaburg clothe.
For small light metal containers, use ones with rounded corners (saves cutting through your haversack/backpack), watch using some types of metals with some items - example copper and spices/herbs don't work together, you'll get a green container like mentioned on the "health issues/metal subject".
A few leather bags/sacks well greased work for carrying items, as does plain brown paper. See AMM Jim Baker web site: http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html go to: http://klesinger.com/jbp/intarticals.html see an article called: "PERIOD MERCHANTS - CONSIDER YOUR PACKAGING". This is about the use of paper, etc.
I have seen some carry a long narrow bag around their waste with day rations (have never found any documentation of such an item), seemed to me on a hard outing one will sweat and could soak into your edibles, not good.
We will hear from others on the list and see what they use, biggest problem is one seems to always take more than what is really needed. Everyone does this whether new or an old experienced hand, for some reason we are afraid of being hungry, when we should carry more water (the lack of which is more important than the food issue).
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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> For small light metal containers, use ones with rounded corners
> (saves cutting through your haversack/backpack), watch using
> some types of metals with some items - example copper and
> spices/herbs don't work together, you'll get a green container
> like mentioned on the "health issues/metal subject".....
I can remember using a small copper box filled with Buck's special spices (green on the inside) for several canoe trips, we used it - then found it was bad for us after the fact, my doctor had a fit.
"Concho" is still using same e-mail/just free loading off me until he finds a place.
Take care - we leave as friends,
Lee "Turtle" Boyer
Historical Advisor - Parks & Rec.
State College, Pennsylvania
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> Some beaver are sheared and some are plucked and sheared. The later are the
> softest. It is done in the tannery. Sheared is just that, it cuts all the
> fur to the same lenght. Plucked and sheared is the plucking of all guard
> hairs and then shearing......
--------------------------
The head man at Ft. Osage at the time (Grady), told us years ago when stopping there on a 14 day canoe trip, that this was originally a factory (first one west of the Mississippi) that "sheared" the beaver pelts and sent the hair down to St. Louis and further south on the river system. Originally done to save weight in moving the hair to be processed. The hides would be used by the locals for a number of projects in the area.
Take care - we leave as friends,
Lee "Turtle" Boyer
Historical Advisor - Parks & Rec.
State College, Pennsylvania
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I recently bought some soap that was infused with sage. Your partner might not consider it an aphrodisiac, but if you can find some buy it or if you have the notion, make your own soap . . . the aroma will take you to Wyoming right there in the shower.
> Any Idea how they incorrperated the sage in the soap?
> George
>
> --- Laura Glise <lglise@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > I recently bought some soap that was infused with
> > sage. Your partner might not consider it an
> > aphrodisiac, but if you can find some buy it or if
> > you have the notion, make your own soap . . . the
> > aroma will take you to Wyoming right there in the
> > shower.
> >
The Germans have made and sold shaving soap, bath soap and washing soaps that are sage sented for several 100 years, according to our supplier - the sage is ground into a powder form and a measured amount is required with their recipes.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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> Buck, I just finished reading "1260 Miles One Way"... outstanding adventure and ........I can't imagine a birch bark canoe going the distance.
> I've got an old Grumman that I'd like to paint to look like birch bark.... does anyone have any suggestions on how to do it?
>
> Steve
_____________________
Steve,
We where really thinking birch bark until further investgating told us it would have taken twice the amount of time, if a real birch bark would have stayed together in the modern waterways we now have to deal with. Not so much the water, but what's been put under it in the way of outlet for the farmers, Corp of Eng. items, bared fences and trash and flooding conditions, etc.
After talking to the US Coast Guard (many don't realize you need their blessing for such a trip - along with other officals), it was decided to use look alike modern counterparts, "Old Towne" plastic shells, no frame work.
We added wood framing as in a birch bark, raised the ends, added seams or panel in the body and then painted with "Anchor" marine paint. First coat is a flat yellow color, second is the reddish pink birch bark color - applied with a rag to make it streak. After this the tar seams where added, then a marine sparr varnish was applied, which would peal a little looking like the bark was coming apart.
The smaller canoe was a 17' voyager model and the larger one was the 20' tripper model, they both carried their loads very nicely; 17' was loaded with approx.400 lb. plus two men @ 180 each. The 20' carried a payload of 600 lb. plus three men @ 185 each. As you can see these where not light weekend rigs, everything we needed was taken for the trip, only thing that would change was resupply some clothing as we started with winter gear and 25-30 degree nights and 1/2 way we where having 40-50 degree evenings, so at Omaha we made the switch to finish out the adventure, pickup a couple dozen more members. As we had NO support team the five acted as each other's mental, phyical and mother in time of need per say.
Sorry got off the subject, a birch bark canoe going over concrete water outlets, pulled up 40' banks (sometimes concrete) and carried and dug when the river was low would have had some major problems. One problem the modern day exployer has is a time schedule, like with in a half day of meeting others that would join or TV crews and camera men; the news media bugged us at least every other day.
We started out very careful when leaving Colorado, you know proud of our vessels, by the second week of two portages a day and packing a 1000 lb. payload up and down banks and traveling as far as several miles from getting out to getting back in. Seems the "painted beauties" didn't really matter after that, in fact I was so tried one time I let the rope go and the 20' made a 15' drop into the Platte River. That stuff they're made of is sure some great material, didn't hurt her at all. Hit a bridge support on the Mississippi at about 6 knots, saw the side come in - cracked an oak support but we kept on rolling. Can't say enough good about these canoes, like that old Timex - "takes a licking and just keeps ticking".
The one you have will work, the only reason we didn't use alum. was we wanted the oak beams and figured it would be easier to attach the raised ends on a plastic or fiberglass body, but I'm sure your local auto body shop can give you some good advice. Good luck.
Oh, we have tried birch bark canoes on short weekend trips with good success on normal waterways. Thanks for asking, we'll all remember that adventure until we go to the other side.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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> > Buck, I just finished reading "1260 Miles One Way"... outstanding adventure and ........I can't imagine a birch bark canoe going the distance.
> Oh, we have tried birch bark canoes on short weekend trips with good success on normal waterways. Thanks for asking, we'll all remember that adventure until we go to the other side.
> Later,
> Buck Conner
In all my traveling, trekking or whatever the subject of the day, when canoe adventures are talked about this one has been mentioned, brother you guys are really lucky to have had the time, money and had the experience to have made that trip.
I can honestly say; was offered the chance to go and flat chickened out knowning what hardships would be encountered. I have kicked myself ever since, you guys had a hell of a time - good and bad - being hard on your bodies.
Hell Buck - you, Jed and the others haven't looked that good for years, you guys weighted about the same but took up 3-4 holes on your belts and built some good neck and upper bodies from a month workout 10-12 hours a day. Thanks for sharing the trip.
"Later - out of camp"
D.L."Concho" Smith
Historical Advisor - Parks & Rec.
Dorsey Run, Pennsylvania
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> when canoe adventures are talked about this one has been mentioned, brother you guys are really lucky to have had the time, money and had the experience to have made that trip........
> Thanks for sharing the trip.
>
> D.L."Concho" Smith
_____________________________
Thank you for the kind remarks, but like anything worth while doing and trying your best to do it correctly, it takes time, research and preparing as our forefather's did.
The L&C adventure wasn't an idea of the moment, it took a year or better of planning, as did this journey mentioned. That's not work on it once in a while, that's work on it every free minute you have for a year, if we had kept track of the time we probably had as much time in preparing as we did on the water.
This time spent was in making, rebuild, collecting, gathering - anything from equipage to correct edibles. Of course it wasn't all work, like shooting deer, elk, and a buffalo. The work was preparing the meat, drying vegetables, etc., along with the craft items needed.
This trip as any trip is not one person, it's about team work, we had an excellent leader (Jed Smith), an excellent cook (Jerry Farenthold) and so on, eveyone had special talents and daily duties to perform along with putting your paddle in the water several times a minute to keep the operation moving forward.
Organization was one of my talents, along with a few others, map reading was a daliy duty, watching and reading the water. Example: one day while crossing a man made lake I noted how flat the water looked several hundred yards ahead. Not taking any chances we went to shore and walked down the bank to the area, we where seeing the edge of a water falls that dropped several hundred feet into a hydro plant. Workers had not put the warning booies back in the water from the night before, don't think these canoes as good as they are would have stood up to that drop.
Like mentioned before assign duties to each member of your team/party, along with the general stuff and just do your homework in planning, preparing, etc. - believe me it will pay off big time.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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> Like mentioned before assign duties to each member of your team/party, along with the general stuff and just do your homework in planning, preparing, etc. - believe me it will pay off big time.
> Buck
---------
Steve,
This is the key to any of these treks, jaunts or whatever you call your experience: whether walking, traveling by horse or on the water. One of the biggest hassels is poor communications in just getting everyone to the same place, at the same time, etc.
On the canoe subject, the two canoes in question where text book examples of how to do this correctly - construction to final landing at Ft.deChartre ILL, planning - something that Buck does as good or better than most. Like these gentlemen that made that 1260 miles (river miles that is) it took plannig and a ton of research and work to make it happen. I watched and was glad not to put forth that kind of effort for such a long period.
Steve, once you start converting your canoe, keep in touch with Buck or myself, we'll be glad to give suggestions and sources if possible. Good luck - Oh I'll have to look in my library, "On The Trail" did an article on the 20' canoe (mentioned), has some construction pictures, etc. Rick Edwards (editor) may have copies of that article or that back issue, check with COHT.
Take care - we leave as friends,
Lee "Turtle" Boyer
Historical Advisor - Parks & Rec.
State College, Pennsylvania
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On Fri, 15 October 1999, ad.miller@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> Does anyone have any plans around or know where I can get plans for a simple
> 2 wheel camp cart that is as period as possible.. ?? I have the wood wheels
> (16 inchers) but am in dire need of plans.
>
> Any help would be greatly appreciated... Please respond off list to
> ad.miller@mindspring.com
>
> Ad Miller
>
Addision,
Contact me off list- have "red river" cart plans that could be reduced in size for a neat wagon.
Also consider a period wheel barrow, easier to haul to and from an event. I have been using one here in the Rockies and am very pleased with the way it handles, can take trade goods, camp equipage, etc. in one load with rifle hung over my shoulder.
Could make two of them and sell one on your trade blanket web site.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver meat question, 1260 miles one way
Date: 16 Oct 1999 12:54:51 -0700
Buck,
Please "forward" this to the hist_list, just changed e-mail provider and my subscription at the hist_list, seems it is not active yet. Tried to answer some questions from the list, I saved you the trouble of getting the information brother.
Later
Concho
________________________________________
> On Fri, 15 October 1999, JON MARINETTI wrote.
> Would anyone in the camp know if the meat (after separated from
the pelt) was used at all ..............
Found some remarks of men in the wilderness eating beaver in an article written in T&LR and on the Jim Baker Party web site, "Meat's Meat".
Osborn Russell reported that "beaver
feeding on wild parsnips were
poisonous and those that ate of the
meat, within a few hours became sick at
the stomach and the whole system
became cramped..."
Rev. Samuel Parker said "that
while flesh of the beaver was
usable, the fore part is of a land
animal while the hind part is of the
taste of fish like..."
William Ashley's journal of May 28,
1824 records that "during the last two
days we have lived on fish we caught
with hooks and lines..." "Also feed on
beaver when lucky enough to catch one".
Personally we have had beaver on several canoe trips when able to shoot one and in a few hunting/trapping camps over the years.
Have found them better tasting than what the gentlemen above have mentioned.
> Buck,
> In what issue of T&LR Is 1260 MILES ONE WAY?
> would like to read that article, but subscription doesn't start until........
The article is in the Spring 1995 T&LR as well as on the AMM Jim Baker Party web site. Understand Charley Richie contacted Buck about running it in this next issue or the next of the "Backwoodsman", as he has had several requests for it.
The canoe article asked about in another post was in the Nov/Dec 1995 issue of "On The Trail", called "Modern to Primitive" by Buck Conner, last time I talked to Rick Edwards he still had a few old issues left.
"Turtle" and yours truly are having fun with answering several lists question this morning, he's going through his library and I answering the list questions.
Concho & Turtle
NEW E-MIAL ADDRESS:
conchosmith@netscape.net
________________________________________
as requested, its sent to the "list"
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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----------------------
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> One consideration not mentioned................The present chemical composition of most major rivers in the U.S.A. may not be very compatible with birchbark. It was one of the considerations of the LaFayette Mississippi exploration reenactment several years back they choose reproduction
Voyageur canoes of fiberglass instead of birchbark for that primary reason,................
____________________________________________
John,
You mind served you well, as you have mentioned water conditions today and birchbark don't agree with each other.
After getting to Ft.DeChartre ILL with the 1260 mile trip several members of the LaFayette Mississippi exploration where there, one gentleman presented us with a "brass boxed strick-a-light kit used on their journey (started most of their "camp mess's" according to them), in return we gave them a prime beaver plew (one of nineteen)that had been trapped and made the trip from Colorado to there.
We had some time to visit with them that evening and what you have stated is what we where told also. Thanks for remembering that John, good point that our forefathers didn't have to deal with.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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----------------------
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> I bought two small pumpkins with the intention of drying them for my grubsack. I figure to peel them and cut them into little chunks and throw them on the dehydrator. Any better suggestions?
Lanney,
Cut them in 3/4" strips and then dry them folded over - in the middle, they pack with less effort and can be eaten like jerky.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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Contacted on and off list about what to do with making pumpkin taste better, what type of pumpkin to use, etc.
I have used sweet pumpkin (see note below), or seasoned it with salt, pepper, pepper corn, or allspice to help with the flavor and to sweeten it up as a muss, use maple sugar granules, cinnamon, or Havana Brown sugar. This will help, don't use to much sugar or you'll be like a kid at Halloween with a sugar high.
For types of pumpkins, figuring your buying and not growing, look for small sugar, connecticut field, bush hybrid or bush spirit: all are good for eating and found most everywhere.
Ones that are not worth a damn for eating because they are so stringy are: lumina (white), most of the minature ones sold for jack-o-lanterns, hybrid paint, true pumpkin, several others that are grown just for Halloween stuff.
Next year if you want to grow some pumpkins, try some "heirloom seed" ones like New England Field, Small Delaware Valley - there's a half dozen good period pumpkins, remember they are native to our country - the Americas /North and South. See below :::
A Little history on one use of pumpkin:
Pumpkin candy is made in the traditional manner of the Native American, dried pumpkin and washed in a cane sugar brine to prevent spoilage, traded from sea to shining sea. Cane sugar has been in the colonies from the start and is still grown in the south and traded world wide, pumpkin
goes back as far or further being started in Mexico and making its way north with the Spaniards. In an early journal a traveler wrote of eating sweet pumpkin while having ôliebationsö with some friendly Indians and a young gentlemen, Mr. Daniel Boone.
ôliebationsö now that's a word that old Skeeter Skelton use to use in his articles, often wondered where he came up with it until about 10 years ago when researching pumpkins, and found the information above. That's a good word for Mr. Miles when having a taste of the good stuff in Texas Larry.
Hope this helps with your questions gang.
Buck
________________________________________________
Harris and I tried carrying dried pumpkin and were not impressed with the boiled up results.á How do you season it or in general how do you use it.
Pendletoná
________________________________________________
I bought two small pumpkins with the intention of drying
them for my grubsack.á I figure to peel them and cut them into little chunks and throw them on the dehydrator.á Any better suggestions?
Lanney
________________________________________________
Cut them in 3/4" strips and then dry them folded over - in the middle, they pack with less effort and can be eaten like jerky.
Buck
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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> All the lines on canoes gets me to thinking about skeeters. I spent about 20
> yrs in Alaska before moving back to America and have lost pints of good red
> blood to that state bird and another critter called a "white-sox". Seems they
> didn't mind dying if they could go out with a full stomach... could chew
> right through 100% Deet with a grin.
>
> About the only "period" bug dope we could come up with was punk.... the
> fungus like growth found on trees. We'd let it smolder on the edge of the
> camp fire and that seemed to help. The locals would rub it on their skin,
> but would take a whippin on a long hunt. Anyone have any ideas of what was
> used back in the good ole days? A guy has gotta draw the line somewhere....
>
> Steve
__________________________________________
In the L&C Journals (the full set (8) books) Lewis talks about using "garlic" on most of the adventure and most faired well from insect bites, this was a suggestion of Thomas Jefferson's. Jefferson was famous for using spices, herbs and vegetable items in healing or to prevent different problems, many references in the book "Jefferson's Garden Book".
After reading this and several other referrals to this plant "garlic" in old journals and historical accounts of it's use. We decided to try it on an extended outing of a month on the water; started using it a week before leaving for our adventure in pill form, used with our meals and fried as a side dish. Everyone in the family didn't like what you or your breathe put out, all glands reak of this little plant, so a week was more than enough for them.
Once leaving and all members having shared in the plant for about the same period, we had no problem with the odor, sure kept others at a distance. As far as working as a insect item, it worked very well: in 28 days on the water and in areas that where at times black with skeeters, I only received (3) bites. That's better than "Deet" or any of the other sprays would have done.
Oh, we also used the garlic in our evening meals for the full 28 days, like one would use an onion in a stew or cooked with your meat., it worked for us.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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> We've built five, and there is just no way around it, they are heavy
> critters. We do tend to leave a little more wood on than the originals
> because we don't want them to buckle and warp. The fella's who made them
> with thin walls, couldn't float them the next year.
>
Hey guys,
I have a few pictures of some late 1700's dug outs, one from Merards Museum near Ft. deChartre ILL, the other from Ft. Charlette at Washington MO (Crobsy Brown's place).
Both are the thin wall and bottom dug outs - when dry they aren't bad on weight, but when even just sitting outside drawing moisture they gain poundage pretty fast. The one at Merards (not sure of the spelling-will check) has 1/2" to 5/8" walls according to our measurements a few years ago, 14' 8-3/4" long X 30-7/8" wide cargo area, surprising how even and well done in keeping such slim lines as old as this vessel is. Brown's is a little smaller by several feet and narrowed by an inch and half, apparently not as talented a craftsman made his.
A dug-out that was used and kept in the water would gain in weight considerablity even being thin walled.
Would be interesting to have an old original like one of these that was useable - water soaked and ready for travel, then see how much of a load it would handle just for grins.
I will look for those pictures this weekend and have our web master for the Baker web site put them up and he can let us know when they are viewable.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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> If you didn't miss the point, Your supposed to cut the walls thin and spread them with thwarts to keep them from buckling in as the wood dries. Would work on any type wood.
________________________________
On the two dug-outs I mentioned, you can see signs of "thwarts" being used after original constructions for just this reason.
________________________________
> YOu can also fill the hull with water while it sets in the yard waiting for another trip. That should keep it from splitting.
________________________________
Mr. Brown keeps an early 1800's dug-out either filled with water or filled with rocks under the water in a small stream near his house when not in use for what the Cap. has stated.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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Subject: MtMan-List: Washington's "Camp Mess" now can be viewed.
Date: 22 Oct 1999 07:27:39 -0700
Earlier this year we had talked about Washington's "Camp Mess" or "Kitchen Mess", well with the kindness of Mr. Lanney Ratcliff taking the picture and forwarding it to me you can now view this wonderful item at:
Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. web site.
http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/
Thanks Lanney.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Washington's "Camp Mess" now can be viewed.
Date: 23 Oct 1999 16:59:09 -0700
On Sat, 23 October 1999, "Paul Jones" wrote:
>
> Buck,
>
> I have been looking at the food selection you donated to the auction site and pondering menus for the various items. Several questions. Do you consider that selection a "basic" assortment that requires additional items
> to be complete, or can it be complete in and of itself? What items go together and what are best cooked alone? Can you furnish cooking instructions/suggestions for the more unique of these items (unique to me at least--rye flour, rolled rye, blended meal and Smith beans? What are the beans similar to in the common bean family? With the flour I can see bread or tortillas; I assume the rolled rye is like oatmeal, and that the blended meal makes a gruel. If these are too basic for a reply, so be it, but a few
> of the items I would have never thought of using--
>
> regards, Paul
___________________________________________
You got the idea, for recipes we are just finishing my personal page with many items that cover food - foraged and cultivated, along with the trade gun inform. can be viewed at: http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html
___________________________________________
Wendy is working on it right now so later this evening or Sunday it shuld be back up.
___________________________________________
"Camp Mess" these are CORRECT "period" items that many of our European Adventurers brought with them... It contains the following:
___________________________________________
Rye Flour, "bannock", Lanney's biscuits, bread. add water and a little baking soda, use Lanney's recipe, bake.
Rice(India Import), a blend of white rices. add water as with any of the rices, cook.
Smith Beans, a mix between today's pinto and small navy bean. add water, soak for a few hours like any bean, cook.
Blended Meal, cerceal. add water as with rolled oats, cook, add your sweetening.
Rolled Rye, rolled grain. add water as with rolled oats, cook.
Crushed Red Pepper, seasoning.
Garlic Granules, seasoning.
Dried Ginger Root, grind on your grader and add to water, boil for a drink according to Mark Baker.
Dried Peaches, snack food.
Salvador Coffee(roasted Bean), SEE NOTE BELOW.
Cone Sugar(piloncillo), sweet sugar.
Spiced Chocolate, used for a drink in boiling water.
Brick Tea(single tile), used for a drink in boiling water.
Sweet Pumpkin (from the local natives), snack, very sweet, good for a picker upper.
3 Clark & Sons Bags. food bags.
___________________________________________
NOTE:
Have found references that several of the wealthy carried roasted coffee beans, like Stuart, Maximill.., and several others that where visiting. Found that in St.Louis "Conrad's Mercantile" 1835 advertised and carried "roasted" coffee bean in several brands.
They had to be roasting it at their warehouse location to offer such an item. Green beans are the most popular item - then and now for the mountainman or earlier period person, we have supplied the roasted for a good example of what the wealthy had, no longer advertise the roasted bean as many just buy it at their local food chain.
This "camp mess", not the average grouping of items, but carried by the Lords, Dukes, Factors, etc. - what's funny have found accounts of the common camp followers (some) distroyed the food in not knowing how to prepare it properly, they where use to what we carry, nothing fancy like the folks of wealth used.
Apply your seasonings per your taste and enjoy, Lanney would have a field day with his ability as an excellent camp cook.
___________________________________________
This is ALLOT of food folks! And everything you would want for the trail, plus some! There is OVER $50. worth of stuff here!! CURRENT BID $65.
___________________________________________
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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> use of pasta, of any variety, during the fur trade era or earlier.á I recall that some pasta-like products were available early-on, but for the life of me can not recall what I read or where the reference may have been.á
_____________________________________
Pablo,
Pasta was a common trade item on the Missouri and Mississippi Rivers in the late 1700Æs, but as researchers agree, it was available for ones that could afford the price, not an item a traveler or hunter would likely have. More of an item found in the settlements or at a fort trading post.
For more information and the references contact Cathy Johnson, she sent this to me once and I have misplaced the books, authors and places found, sorry.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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> I have been getting e-mail about "George Buck Conner" and what movies he was in when working in Hollywood. I have an article in a Guns & Ammo 1985 Annual and it says he was a sidekick to Bob Steel (I remember him), died in 1946 in Yuma AZ when a deputy still carrying a Colt used in the Viva affairs.
>
> Tell us more Buck of your relation, and maybe this will end my off_list e-mails for tonight, neat stuff.
>
> Concho
______________________________________________
The only reason I'll even answer your request, is it is slow right now and this should end this OFF TOPIC discussion, I hope. Next time e-mail me OFF_LIST thanks guys.
______________________________________________
This is a copy of a letter received from a video manufacturer that supplies local Video Stores.
Dear Mr. Conner:
Let me first apologize for the delay in responding to your inquiry about your Grand FatherÆs brother, Buck / George ConnorÆs movies. You were given an out-of-date address; the correct one follows at the end of this message.
I did some additional research and found a filmography for George. We did not have him listed in our database since the information we receive from suppliers is often very limited, particularly with older titles. I will be adding him to all the titles we list as currently available on video, after a little research I found he has an interesting career in the movie industry, as a stuntman, co-star, and plus his role with Viva in earlier years as a "white reporter".
His filmography includes:
The Westerner (1940)
West of Santa Fe (1939)
The Law Rides (1936)
Alias John Law (1935)
No Man's Land (1935)
The Last Round-Up (1934)
The Thundering Herd (1934)
Desert Vengeance (1931)
The Dawn Trail (1930)
Trails of Peril (1930)
Grit Wins (1929)
Hell's Heroes (1929)
The Crimson Canyon (1928)
The Fearless Rider (1928)
The Phantom Flyer (1928)
The Mojave Kid (1927)
Jaws of Steel (1927)
The Fighting Three (1927)
The Bronco Buster (1927)
Hands Off (1927)
Hidden Loot (1925)
Biff Bang Buddy (1924)
Fighting Fury (1924)
The Back Trail (1924)
The Duke of Chimney Butte (1921)
Action (1921)
The Phantom Riders (1918)
__________________________________________
Letter goes on - but I belive this will answer your questions, let get back to the correct time period as this list is intended to deal with, late 1700's to 1850.
Sorry for this OFF TOPIC discussion, and lets hear some period stuff, did we all go hunting or have an encampment last week ?????
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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> Buck did answer the question. Also had a long and enjoyable conversation with him this evening--after copying all 66 pages of his personal site. What a bonanza of information.
Buck, it sounds like YOU are the historical item here.
B'st'rd
Buck wrote:
>
> On Mon, 25 October 1999, Concho Smith wrote:
>
> >
> > "Paul Jones" <pwjones@excelonline.com> wrote:
> > Buck did answer the question. Also had a long and enjoyable conversation with him this evening--after copying all 66 pages of his personal site. What a bonanza of information.
Don't encourage these two, it's good that Pablo and Concho live at different ends of the country, with D. Miles in the middle, together with these three there would be a lot of renaming I'm afraid.
Later,
Buck Conner
_________________________________
Personal Home Site:
http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html
_________________________________
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http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html
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Detail for me what you mean by folded over. Is this while drying after drying length wise or width. I just bought a variety identified for pumpkin pie use. I assume these would be more palitable than the jac-o-lantern variety sold perdominantly.
____________________________________________
Cut them in 3/4" strips, leave full length / cut from top to bottom of the pumpkin and then fold each strip over in half - dry in the oven or in a dehydrator, they pack with less effort and look more like what would have been dried hung over a green stick in the sun. you can sun dry if you want to go to the trouble of making a screen to keep the flys off them, other methods are faster and easier, have done it both ways and feel more comfortable with the oven, dehydrator as being cleaner with our conditions today.
To make more edible for those that don't care for the normal flat taste, add seasoning, spices, etc. just as some do with jerky and then can be eaten like jerky. I personally use the pumpkin as a filler in a one pot meal, like some cooks use oraka, potatoes, etc. - it add bulk to the pot, but like some have stated its pretty bland eaten alone.
You really have to develope a taste, I have eaten it cut it strips, boiled and then fried to just firm it up using buffalo lard with a touch of sea salt and cracked pepper corn - not bad with some buffalo strips and corn grits. Damn I'm getting hungry.
____________________________________________
Hope this helps. I don't like ribs or lobster - too much work, but like this item there's many that do.
Later,
Buck Conner
_________________________________
Personal Home Site:
http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html
_________________________________
AMM Jim Baker Party:
http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html
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> With all the confusion regarding the ownership of endangered animal parts, I have often wondered where one can get reliable information on what is legal and what is not.
_____________________________________________
This is a very serious problem that can get all of us in trouble.
The wife got tired of my old black bear collection of mounted heads and skulls (15), the memories are fading of their taking, now older feeling quilty of the hunts (told this is a natural process), several friends showed interest in trading/buying them. That's where the problem came in as they where taken in New York and Pennsylvania in the 40's, 50's and 60's (all skulls had the state lead or metal tags with # number of legal lic.), mounted heads had lic.tag on back of mounting plate.
Seemed legal to us, made the mistake of asking a friend's kid thats a Colorado Fish & Game officer about selling these heads. I could trade or give them away, but couldn't sell them - the state considers this selling as making a profit on game animals, damn near like selling game meat. So to keep it legal we traded, then the traded items where bought back with cash.
_____________________________________________
> For instance, there is a store not far from my home that sells Alaskan crafts. Some of these items are made from whale bone and whale baleen that were taken, legally, by native Alaskans. They also sell teeth ..............
_____________________________________________
I have a collection that's been handed down through the family of Alaskan items like ivory, whale teeth, tusks, furs, etc. that could be under this problem, just because it's old or appears to be, doesn't mean anything to these agencies. You had better have proof with letters, pictures, etc.
_____________________________________________
> I have heard that the simple of act of wearing a part of a black bear, such as a claw necklace can get on arrested in Kentucky even though the animal is not considered endangered.................
_____________________________________________
I have an old Indian War period black bear claw necklace that I use to wear and have put it away rather than have some "newbee" officer want to take it. Then have to go through all the baloney of getting it back, if it was possible to get it back.
Have a friend that had a legal eagle feather with papers that was taken a few years back by some F&G officers and never gotten back after several years of the legal process (he is well to-do and tried to make an issue of it - where the average person would just give up, bottom line he got no where either).
This can effect reenacters, collectors, small museums (I'm told), etc., who knows where it will stop when there's money to be made in fines, etc.
Later,
Buck Conner
_________________________________
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How long is the tape and what is the cost? Are there any other Fur Trade era video tapes out there? There's gotta be.
HBC
> I just watched "The spirit of Rendezvous" Produced by Reel West Pictures.
> Call or write to:
> Leo Hakola
> Box 7
> La Barge, WY 83123
> 307-386-9216
________________________________________________
Henry,
Doc Ivory gave the price once, but can't remember what is was now, guess call Leo Hakola for cost and shipping charges.
I have always liked "Black Robe", not really fur trade per say, but well done and can be rented at most video stores.
Of course there's "Centennial" TV series, "The Mountainmen", and the series that Wes & Jeff have done on horse travel that's advertised in Muzzleloader and On The Trail.
What about the "Lewis & Clark" series that PBS had, along with several other series they had on Jefferson and a few others that had input into the fur trade.
The Bent's Fort movie is interesting and available from that location, check with the US Park Service as to what other loactions have been filmed. Saw one on Fort Union and can remember who produced it.
Will have to look tonight at home library and see what else there is.
Later,
Buck Conner
_________________________________
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: C&SM new catalog of period stuff
Date: 27 Oct 1999 13:28:24 -0700
On Wed, 27 October 1999, ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote:
>
> > I see that the new catalog is now available and that a few of the members
> > from the history_list have comments on food in it,
> > http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/
>
> I didn't see the millet meal listed that he used to carry. IMO, it made some
> of the best girddlecakes I have eaten. Meal + water (egg optional) fry in
> bacon or pork grease.
>
> The barley flour is excellent for a heavy trail bread.
> 2 cups barley flour
> 1 can of your favorite ale
> 2 tablespoons of sugar.
>
> It can be baked in a dutch oven, in a skillet, or on a hot rock. Takes about
> a 1/2 hour and you have to flip it when not using a dutch oven.
>
> Good eats
> Dave Kanger
____________________________________________
Dave,
We dropped the millet meal from the price list because only a few would try it no matter what you and a few others would write about this item.
Only the die-hards would venture away from the old stand-byes like corn and oat meal, when the millet and barley meals where probably more acturate for their persona's. I still sell it but just took it off the price list, if you think I should - still show it we can change the new sheets - that's no big deal.
We have found the same with the blue corn meal and blue parched corn, an item that's like pumpkin coming from Mexico and traded on all the major trade routes from the west to the Mississippi, yet many still go with the eastern corns like Flint.
I wonder if we as a people of the 21st century have been spoiled, style of living conditions, taste buds, etc., the reason is because many are really put-out when asked to wear this, sleep here, or eat that, when period correct. Many reenacters, history buffs, rendezvousers or whatever the name they use, spend thousands of dollars on clothing, weapons and equipage, then turn around and eat modern or junk food when in camp!!!! They have made these purchases in trying to be correct and experience life in a given time period, then miss out on the total experience because of their edibles, that's sad.
Some of the old timers like yourself, Mike Rock, John Kramer, Hawk Pierce, Dennis Miles, the Capt. and please forgive me for not mentioning everyone have talked until blue in the face about experience the total period, everything - but we as a whole tend to slide by on the stuff that's the cheapest and easiest part to experience the DAMN FOOD.
This has always been the big thing we've stressed when traveling by horse, foot or water vessel, I don't know why but there's always someone taking short cuts in this area.
We where on a 10 day canoe trip from Bonnet's Mill MO to Ft. deChartre ILL, have known this one individual for 10 years, pretty good reenacter, felt we needed to watch a few new guys. About 10/11 one night, everyone is sleeping on this sandy beach, I get up to check camp and happen to walk by this individual and hear this crackling sound under his blankets. I stopped pulled back the top cover and here he is eating a "cup cake" - Mr."I Do It Right", last time he was invited.
Later,
Buck Conner
_________________________________
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> "Centennial," on the other hand, was a much better production. It by far had the best rendezvous scenes in any fur trade movie.
> Better than "Mountain Men," I thought. On the whole, Centennial best captured the role of the trapper, trader, and the investor. That was a very good treatment of the fur trade. Notice that both Fremont and Centennial used Bent's Fort as a set? In Dream West, it was Sutters Fort. In Centennial (Part 3) it was Fort St. John, McKeag's trading post. Centennial been my favorite made for TV movie since it first aired in 1978.
_________________________________________
Henry,
Having been in both Centennial and Mountain Men as a background actor in the rendezvous parts. The Mountain Men had the better props and more of them, but I to like Centennial the best, probably because the horse stealing part in Part 2 and a few shot in Part 3 where done on our place in Masonville CO.
If you look at the horses real close Henry, you will notice there's quite a variety of breeds, even makeup on them sure chances their appearance, but the shape of heads, ears, etc. stay the same.
Fun experience playing with these people and others in several other movies, Turtle and Concho even behaved to a point, well almost.
Later,
Buck Conner
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> Rating for trade blankets in their catalogue. They rate them as follows:
>
> Trade blankets to 50 degrees
> Ingenious and Lachine to 35 degrees
> Point Blankets to 30 degrees
> Buffalo rug (Witney) to 20 degrees
>
__________________________________________
This rating is misleading, because it does not take into consideration age, wear, condition, etc., - then you wash it in cold water and cool dry it's different. Wash the blanket in hot water and dry hot (will shrink 4-5 inches length and width) but your rating will change greatly, as the weave has been tightened up many times.
I drive C.J. Wilde nuts when I do the hot wash on one of her blankets, it sure changes how well it keeps out the cold.
Hold up your blanket to the light before washing, take a good mental picture, then do the same after washing - you'll be surprised at the difference in the tightness of the weave.
Later,
Buck Conner
_________________________________
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> I've slept under a pine tree, 15 below zero with a buffalo robe and a 6pt
> witney and had to open up for air during the night!! I'm convinced those
> extra layers around the feet make all the difference.
> Pat surrena #1449
Seems Pat forgot to mention that everyone in the Baker party is happy he sleeps under that buffalo robe and 6pt blanket way far away from the rest of the camp under a pine tree, right "Thunder in the Night".
Later,
Buck Conner
_________________________________
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On Sat, 30 October 1999, randybublitz@juno.com wrote:
>
> Question: Does washing a good wool blanket in hot water remove too much
> lanolin? It's the oil that makes good 'virgin' wool good wool, isn't it?
> I have a 6 pt. which I feel is a bit too large, would be nice to have
> it a bit smaller, yet denser...if I didn't lose too much benefit from
> losing the oils. Does anyone know the particulars?
I've washed my HBC, Witney, C.J.Wilde blankets at least once a year for 10 years and haven't had any problems with them, couldn't say on loosing oil ????
________________
Talking about washing, about 10-12 years ago several of us got in some of that black sticky mud along the Mississippi, up to our butts with brain-tanned leggins, pants and mocs (those that stayed on and weren't lost). Tried rinsing out the worst, wiping with a rag, you name it we tried it. Our Old Brother "Brass Turtle" many knew him, told me "hell give them to be , know an old Indian trick". We're camp in a little park near Washington MO, he talks a local into taking him to town, about 2-3 hours later that night he shows up a little worst for wear (been to the bar), has our skins and they look beautiful - like new.
Can get him to talk about how he got them cleaned that night, he's off on a self distruction mission if you know what I mean with Turtle. Next day he's telling everyone some old trick he did to clean the skins, later he tells me he took them to the laundry and washed them with "Downy" soap, all we needed to do was resmoke them and they have been fine. Some people's kids, God I miss him, like so many.
Later,
Buck Conner
_________________________________
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This thing about "rating" blankets is real questionable according to several reports I have read and I tend to go with what they say. Everyone has different temperatures they consider uncomfortable to them, I don't mean body mass - like we first think of, a heavier person is warmer than a thin one and so on.
A 1960's US Army report claimed when trying to rate blankets for different climates, it was found that some individuals temperature would be lower when sleeping than a like person in the same conditions. One may be comfortable and the other is either cold or too warm, both using the same blankets and bedding. After several years of testing all over the world they threw out their rating system and decided to make additional blanket available to those that needed them. Another report done by a Canadian firm was much the same with the same results.
A good example is Pat has just mentioned sleeping very comfortable in 15 degree weather with a buff robe and a pair of 6pt wool blankets. I happened to be on that outing with several others, I used my Wilde and a Witney horse blanket and a bedroll with the blanket covers (3) stacked light blankets under me, in an open faced lean-too. Several others knowing it was going to go to a possible -10/15 degrees brought that much or more, I think three of us slept good, a couple where cold and one sat up and kept a fire going most of the night.
The reason some slept better than others we figured was the ones with loose weave blankets cooled down the fastest and never did regain their body heat, those with tighter weave and heavier wool blankets seemed to fair better, Pat with the buff robe faired the best with less heat loss due to the hide and hair of the robe. You could see the steam coming up off that lump in the snow.
The rating idea whatever it would have been good for goes out the window with the age, condition and care of each blanket, I've talked to Jim of Blue Heron Merc. about this several years ago, nice chart, for a chart. But how does it apply to used blankets, new blankets and so on !
Later,
Buck Conner
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Have slept out in -25 degree weather. There are a couple of other good reasons why some get cold and others don't. Most are the person's own fault.
1. You need to go to bed warm, dry, and have enough calories in your system to get you through the night. Eat a late supper with plenty of fat in it. Go for a walk to get your blood circulating, then change your dry clothes and turn in.
>
2. You need to stay away from the fire. Most guys that are fire-sitters are always cold. You sweat more than you know when it is cold, but you don't notice it. Sitting by the fire will get you all sweated up. You turn in and your clothing cools off and you get cold.
>
3. You need bedding that will pass moisture. If you sleep with your head under the covers, your breath will get everything damp. When it cools off, you will get cold. Best thing is to crawl into your blankets and then put a small blanket over your head and face. That keeps your breath out of your main bedding.
For some reason, I always found western mountain air to be warmer than eastern air....at the same temperature. Maybe
cause mountain air has less humidity in it.
>
> Dave Kanger
___________________________
Another item that is missed for some reason is your feet, you can watch a guy complain about his feet being cold during the day, many times his footwear with extra socks are to tight. Then he'll go to bed wearing his footwear and complain all night how his feet are freezing. You tell him to take off his shoes, boots, mocs and he'll be better off, but they never listen.
Later,
Buck Conner
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I always build me a nice bed of grasses, leaves or some such to get me up off the ground, and then get a blanket under me and one on top.And although I go barefoot until there is actually snow on the ground, I wear a nice thick pair of wool socks, a touque and mebby mittens to bed.. Makes a difference. When possible I build a litter shelter with a reflector fire in front.
I stay as comfortable as can be expected in the conditions. Also, when in extreme cold or wet weather, we just buddy up 2-3 folks to a shelter & fire.
D
Buck wrote:
> Have slept out in -25 degree weather. There are a couple of other good reasons why some get cold and others don't. Most are the person's own fault.
> 1. You need to go to bed warm, dry, and have enough calories in your system to get you through the night. Eat a late supper with plenty of fat in it. Go for a walk to get your blood circulating, then change your dry clothes and turn in.
> >
> 2. You need to stay away from the fire. Most guys that are fire-sitters are always cold. You sweat more than you know when it is cold, but you don't notice it. Sitting by the fire will get you all sweated up. You turn in and your clothing cools off and you get cold.
> >
> 3. You need bedding that will pass moisture. If you sleep with your head under the covers, your breath will get everything damp. When it cools off, you will get cold. Best thing is to crawl into your blankets and then put a small blanket over your head and face. That keeps your breath out of your main bedding.
>
> For some reason, I always found western mountain air to be warmer than eastern air....at the same temperature. Maybe
> cause mountain air has less humidity in it.
> >
> > Dave Kanger
> ___________________________
>
> Another item that is missed for some reason is your feet, you can watch a guy complain about his feet being cold during the day, many times his footwear with extra socks are to tight. Then he'll go to bed wearing his footwear and complain all night how his feet are freezing. You tell him to take off his shoes, boots, mocs and he'll be better off, but they never listen.
>
> Later,
> Buck Conner
> _________________________________
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Clay Landry (God bless his heart) has long advocated that (as research will reveal) there was nothing more that the 3 1/2 pointá and the occasional/limited 4 point available in days of yore.á Have we departed from our roots????á I've done quite will with my 4 point and some heated rocks and when things got ....unusual....a buff robe
> filled in the vacancy.áá I'm 5'11 and 2xx lb. .......no snide comments
_________________________
Hey brother,
Sounds like you better get scheduled for a few operations John, have about 6" cut off your legs and about the same cut off your butt, you would be more period correct.
Only kidding, with the difference in size today of reenacters when compared to our forefathers that 6-7 inch difference in blankets makes the difference in being comfortable or hanging out.
As far as Witney or C.J. Wilde blanket's go, of course Witney's are correct and C.J.'s blankets are copies of original F&I War to Rev War blankets from several museums.
Bottom line is all of them are copies - HBC, Witney or Wilde's, only problem is size and if you dig long and hard enough you'll fine many homespun blankets where alot larger than a 3-1/2 or 4 pt. blanket. Hell be happy these folks are using blankets, beats fony bedrolls with sleeping bags hidden in them like we all have seen in years passed.
Later,
Buck Conner
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And what does "Teddy" wear, little woman said you always take him along.
B. heeee
> Buck,
> I always build me a nice bed of grasses, leaves or some such to get me up off the ground, and then get a blanket under me and one on top.And although I go barefoot until there is actually snow on the ground, I wear a nice thick pair of wool socks, a touque and mebby mittens to bed.. Makes a difference. When possible I build a litter shelter with a reflector fire in front.
> I stay as comfortable as can be expected in the conditions. Also, when in extreme cold or wet weather, we just buddy up 2-3 folks to a shelter & fire.
> D
>
> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
> DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
> Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
> http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
Later,
Buck Conner
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Speaking of historically accurate ... When you read about the
mountaineers in freezing times, you find out that they didn't just sleep
2-3 folks to a shelter and fire, but "buddied up" under the covers, so
to speak. You guys are sticklers for accuracy, right, so we can assume
that ...
Maybe you could tell us more about that?
B'st'rd
Dennis Miles wrote:
>
> I stay as comfortable as can be expected in the conditions. Also, when in extreme cold or wet weather, we just buddy up 2-3 folks to a shelter & fire.
> D
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Tell ya what, I ain't ashamed of it, my late runnin partner and I have shared a bedroll in VERY cold times, back to back, (unlike Buck and his friends) a
body throws allot of heat and when it is below or near 0, no sense in wastin' it.
Lanney can pitch in with a body heat story too, I believe..
D
John Stephens wrote:, but "buddied up" under the covers, so
> to speak. You guys are sticklers for accuracy, right, so we can assume
> that ...
>
> Maybe you could tell us more about that?
>
> B'st'rd
>
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> Tell ya what, I ain't ashamed of it, my late runnin partner and I have shared a bedroll in VERY cold times, back to back, (unlike Buck and his friends) a.........
Wait a minute Mr. Miles,
What did you mean by that crack, Oh one who plays with fire.
As Pat and Mike have both mentioned, in the Rockies it do get a wee chilly, like -15 to -30 at 10,000 feet, and we all have slept back to back - sharing each others body heat. Someone had written about heating hot rocks, that works for a little while, but as they cool down the seem to draw moisture too.
Later,
Buck Conner
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Quit callin' me "Mr."<G> And I am just shootin in the dark to see what happens.. I am curious like that.. Are you SURE it was back to back???HHHMMMmmmm????
D
Buck wrote:
>
>
> Wait a minute Mr. Miles,
> What did you mean by that crack, Oh one who plays with fire.
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> Quit callin' me "Mr."<G> And I am just shootin in the dark to see what happens.. I am curious like that.. Are you SURE it was back to back???HHHMMMmmmm????
> D
>
> Buck wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Wait a minute Mr. Miles,
> > What did you mean by that crack, Oh one who plays with fire.
>
> --
>
> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
> DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
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>
>
>
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Later,
Buck Conner
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> > Quit callin' me "Mr."<G> And I am just shootin in the dark to see what happens.. I am curious like that.. Are you SURE it was back to back???HHHMMMmmmm????
> > D
> >
> > Buck wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Wait a minute Mr. Miles,
> > > What did you mean by that crack, Oh one who plays with fire.
> >
> > --
> >
> > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
> > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
> > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
> > http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
> >
> >
> >
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>
> Later,
> Buck Conner
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Yea, and I've got a nice, black-edged, round hole in one of my canvas bags, as well as a scorched spot on one of my blankets from said hot rock. It did stay warm all night, but it _could_ have gotten a whole lot warmer real quick!
Tom
> Someone had written about heating hot rocks, that works for a little while, but as they cool down the seem to draw moisture too.
>
> Later,
> Buck Conner
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