On Tue, 31 August 1999, Phyllis and Don Keas wrote:
>
> Reply to: Re: MtMan-List: Tipi Dwelling
> Food for thought: The first TP's sere made of skins which would keep the wind out better and be warmer than canvas. Would the first ones not need a liner until made from canvas would require one?
>
> DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants
At the making of Centennial (rendezvous scene) done near Estes Park CO. There was a large hide tipi setup, no liner, one morning it was pretty damp and someone started a fire in the tipi (pretty smokey inside), several that had and spent a lot of time with tipi's, played with the flaps, tried different things and even change the firewood - but still had the smokey condition. A few days later someone put a make shift liner in it and corrected the problem. The experts claimed it couldn't breathe with the dense hides and would make a great smoker for smoking hides or meat, before putting in the liner !
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado Territory
http://klesinger.com/jbp/swf1.html
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Getting back to the tipi dwelling thing. Computer crashed again and just got back on. We are here to stay for a while. ;-}
I do not have the journals describing only rocks were used to place on the covers of tipis, but I am looking up the ones I can after seeing them quoted. But lets look at another way this could be done.
Playing Devils' advocate here, so bear with me.....
What about pegs and rocks. I have hundreds of pictures of tipis dating from the 1860s' to 1920s', they all show pegs. These are from the Denver Historical Society to Nebraska to Kansas and to Montana. Don't have Canadian. But they are all taken when there is no snow severe weather. I have seen tipi rings out West. But I never thought to see if there were possibly peg holes between the rocks. When I was up at Paradise Valley in 78, I pegged my tipi down and had to leave several of the pegs in the ground when I couldn't get them out. Don't worry, I broke them off even with the surface so no injury
might happen to someone tripping over them. Now the point is, when I went back in 88 for the next National at The Valley, I was able to find my sight and what was left of the pegs were still there and some holes from the pegs I did retrieve.
That ground out there is not forgiving. You do leave your mark.
I could see the ladies setting up a tipi with pegs (if they have them) and then putting rocks in-between to cut out the cold wind.
This would seem more stable. There is not written documentation of this happening...but a thought.
But what is documented, is that all the tipi photos of Buffalo hide tipis does show peg holes.
Saw Larry Belitz Buffalo hide tipi at National Pow wow. It was definitely warmer in that lodge than any of the canvas lodges.
So the skin hide appears to keep the wind out better than canvas..so the lining may not have been as necessary.
For another question.....I own a 10', 15' and 17' lodge. The ten foot does not need a lining for a fire. I do sometimes put in a 2' lining just to get the wind off my back and keep the cold out.
The Elk robe hides I was referring to in another post, along with a buf. robe, do not have fur on and therefore are light weight to put up on the poles and act as a make shift little lining in the tipi.
The 15' I put a partial lining in to draw the fire up. Do not always have to put in a full lining. The 17' I use a full lining. My linings are in 3 sections.
Many of my old time pictures show "calico", paisley and flowered material used for linings. Then we have the Muslin white lining. The "fitted" lining is a more modern article.
Unfortunately most the information is after the 1850s.
There are also some sketch book drawings of the Sioux and Kiowa showing interiors of tipis. These are very rare. The "Pictorial History of the Oglala Sioux" is a good one. Now these are still after the Fur trade era, but deal in their past history.
Ewers, in the "Plains Indian Paintings" shows a lovely Blackfoot lining that appears to be before 1850. It is at the Smithsonian.
I am trying to get information on that for my own mental stability.
Unfortunately, the artist and writers of the past were more interested in person and his or her clothing to draw good pictures about tipis. It just didn't seen to be of interest as it is now. Darnit. And why couldn't Catlin and the others spend some time drawing better pictures of tipis???
> Getting back to the tipi dwelling thing. Computer crashed again and just got back on. We are here to stay for a while. ;-}
>
> I do not have the journals describing only rocks were used to place on the covers of tipis, but I am looking up the ones I can after seeing them quoted. But lets look at another way this could be done.
>
> Playing Devils' advocate here, so bear with me.....
Linda,
Thanks for the additional insight. Very interesting and thought
provoking observations to add to the mix. <G> I remain......
> As a wee pup, I worked the tobacco fields of New Bern,
> North Carolina...
> ahh, the glory days of working from sunup to sundown for
> $2.00 an hour!
>
In Lancaster Pennsylvania we where getting $ .75 an hour in the early 50's, and we worked our tails off, think you where over paid Lee.
> Anyhow... we harvested the leaves as they started to
> change color, not the plant... we'd often hit a field
> 4 - 5 times before the field was stripped
> and ready to replant. We usually took the leaves 3-4 at
> a time off a plant, then moved on to the next.
>
We would do the same.
> Even before harvesting, we'd "sucker" the plants, that is, > walk the rows and remove all the off shoots so that only
> one main stem remained.
same process in PA.
> After harvesting, the leaves were sewn into loose bundles,
> hung over a stick in a barn (hence the name stick-barn),
> and allowed to dry until they were a golden yellow color.
same process in PA.
> They did not dry brittle, but had more of a leathery
> texture when we took them down to bag for market.
> They were tied loose so that air could circulate around
> them. About two weeks in the NC summer was sufficient to
> do the job.
>
This was when we would twist them into the small "twists", then they are left hanging for another period of time, for length of time I have forgotten now guys.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado Territory
http://klesinger.com/jbp/swf1.html
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> I've lurked a long time but as a Kentucky tobacco farmer I feel I must come forward on this subject. The process we use now is to cut
> the plant when it is mostly a rich yellow and then spear it on a tobacco stick (usually four stalks at a time if it is big tobacco) and hang
> it in an airish place for it to dry. When it gets a nice shade of brown and it has some moisture to it (not krinkly) then we take the leaves
> off and bale them now. I chew it and grow my own and make my own twists so the way I go about it is I take a handful of leaves and tie then
> together at the top and let them cure some more after they are stripped always making sure they are moist. I taste every hand until it has
> the flavor (strength) I'm comfortable with and then I fix some with honey sprinkled on over a pot bellied stove and the rest I just twist and
> chew straight. As far as time goes, most people here in central Kentucky have already got their tobbacco hanging in the barns. It's not
> rained here since June 24. I have got to kill 17 rattlers this year, I guess their coming off Mammoth Cave Park looking for water. Please
> forgive me for my grammatical and spelling errors, I'm a farmer not a professor.
> Robert Bigbear
>
Hey Big Bear,
Thank you for the information, I knew there had to be a grower out there somewhere. You mentioned rattlesnakes, they're having the same problem with them in central Pennsylvania with no rain for a long period.
Good luck.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado Territory
http://klesinger.com/jbp/swf1.html
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Tobacco is a weed and like most weeds it dosen't need a whole lot of water to survive. However, it does need more water than it got in my part of Kentucky this year to be healthy. It can grow in most soils (its not particularly fond of clay, however)
but the soils must be of a certain pH for a monetary crop (hence the need for fertilize). The most remarkable thing about the plant to me is how it loves the heat. Too much can burn the plant up, but otherwise warm weather really helps it with the right
amount of water. The plants I grow for my own use have no pesticides, herbicides, or fertilize applied. I plant them in sandy soil totally disregarding pH and baby them along. If it don't rain enough I can add water. The way I have the soil fixed in the
mound then excess water can run off without killing the plant. For some reason too much water just stunts the growth. I usually produce four stalks like that, and after preparing them I put the old stalks back on the sandy ground to decompose. These four
I make my twists out of for myself and two old timers that prefer this to store bought but don't grow it any more themselves and it is usually enough to get us through the whole year as we don't eat the stuff like some chewers I know. :) The only other
advice I have to offer is to just plant by the signs. My grandfather taught me and I will teach it to my kids. They really work. This is why I hate to post anything. I'm just too long winded.
Your most hon. svn't.,
Robert Bigbear
Ratcliff wrote:
> Hey Robert
> Great stuff....stop lurking and jump in more often. I don't use tobacco, but if I did, I would really feel good about using what I had grown myself. What conditions are required for tobacco to grow...at least well enough for a person's private needs?
On Sat, 04 September 1999, "Ron Chamberlain" wrote:
>
> Where do you buy your seeds, and what kind of tobacco do you grow?
> I'd like to try it here in SE Idaho.
> Ron
>
Ron,
I believe Clark & Sons Mercantile has small packets of "Burley" tobacco seed, only a couple of bucks last time I looked at his web page. See http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/
Take care - we leave as friends,
Lee Boyer
Historical Advisor - Parks & Rec.
State College, Pennsylvania
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On Sat, 04 September 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> On Sat, 04 September 1999, "Ron Chamberlain" wrote:
>
> >
> > Where do you buy your seeds, and what kind of tobacco do you grow?
> > I'd like to try it here in SE Idaho.
> > Ron
> >
>
> Ron,
>
> I believe Clark & Sons Mercantile has small packets of "Burley" tobacco seed, only a couple of bucks last time I looked at his web page. See http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/
>
>
> Take care - we leave as friends,
> Lee Boyer
Hey Turtle,
Have you tried growing it in PA, I know your higher up than most of the tobacco growers around there. No good in Canada, at least where I was, Buck sent me some and it didn't go - maybe the moose got it first ???
"May the spirit be with you"
D.L."Concho" Smith
Livingston, MO.
Historical Coordinator - Missouri
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GW's kitchen mess kit - metal tin containers
Date: 05 Sep 1999 06:29:48 -0700
> > On Sun, 01 August 1999, JON MARINETTI wrote:
> >
> > "the outside had turned a dark gray color from age" --- wonder if it
> > could have been pewtered [tin-lead alloy] with maybe some silver added ?
> >
> ------------------------------
> On Mon, 02 August 1999, "Buck" wrote:
> Jon,
>
> That's a good point, I will contact a friend that is still involved with the Valley Forge Historical Society and ask him your question. That was a fashionable thing in Washington's Day and seeing how the "kitchen mess" belonged to him that could be, it's been at least 15 years since I looked at the set and can't remember now. I'll get back with an answer Jon.
> Later,
> Buck Conner
Jon,
Have received word that the mess kit in question is tin of a high quality that has turned dark with age, not pewtered [tin-lead alloy] as you had suggested.
The gentleman from the society said he had trouble finding the mess kit as it is not on display at this time (hoped to make a new setting with it included - early in 2000). This is the trouble these days with the cost of floor space, many items of interest are packed away (if not sold to private collections).
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado Territory
http://klesinger.com/jbp/swf1.html
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On Sun, 05 September 1999, "larry pendleton" wrote:
>
> Lanney,
> Looks like I was wrong again. LHB [ my wife ] says yes you can grow
> tobacco here, [ Texas ] but it will take a lot of petting and pampering.
> Morning sun, afternoon shade and such. Get in touch with Buck for the
> seeds. She says the seed co. should be able to tell you where it will grow
> and what care the plants will need. You grow it and Dennis and I will chew
> it. What do you think ? Sounds like a deal to me.
> Pendleton
________________________________________________
This is the information on the package, Big Bear doesn't mess around like this I wouldn't think, this is for the home body - not the commerical grower.
________________________________________________
Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc.
HEIRLOOM SEED PROJECT
Burley Tobacco
approx.100 seeds per pkt. 120 days
Start seeds indoors 4-6 wks. before transplanting. Do not cover seeds with soil; they need light to germinate. Space seeds 1" apart, separating rows by 6ö. Germination should be 14-21 days, move seeds to peat pots when the plants are 3-4ö tall.
Move to garden 2 wks. after all danger of frost is gone and weather has settled. Set plants 18ö apart in rows 30ö apart.
Water well during dry weather and mulch to reduce weeds. Harvest plants at 4-6Æ tall, havvest the pungent leaves at any size. This is a popular plug filler type tobacco.
________________________________________________
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado Territory
http://klesinger.com/jbp/swf1.html
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You have opened a can of worms with this one, have seen this question before with a hundred different answers. Everyone has seen an original shooting bag in a museum, a book or knows someone that has one.
An 1836-1844 bag at a museum here in Colorado (time period used by the owner), several repairs to bag itself, had these items in it for ramrod and cleaning with ramrod.
For cleaning tools (ramrod assy. only), don't know what this man carried whether flint or perc. gun.
Service tools:
(1) tow worm
(1) ball puller (screw type) not the ones we see today
w/brass protector cone.
(1) cleaning jag
(1) breech plug scrapper (coned to fit plug)
Ramrod pulling devises:
(1) small iron pin w/a screw that went in ramrod to pull if
stuck, screw has a hole for pin in its shank making the
shape of a "T" when assembled.
(1) ramrod extention - 4" long with ramrod fittings on both
end - male & female, have made one of these and it gives
you a better grip.
These where the tools for ramrod and bore cleaning operations only, other tools to service the rest of gun where typical to most kits. From what this gentleman carried, he seemed well equipped.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado Territory
http://klesinger.com/jbp/swf1.html
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> The standard ramrod attachment for smoothbore flintlock trade guns in the
> 1774 to 1821 period was a gun worm made from 'pinning
> wire'. It's the only ramrod attachment I've ever seen
> mentioned in journals or inventory lists.
I researched and wrote an article a few years ago on the trade gun and it's history, now found on the AMM Jim Baker Party web site.
In that research I found several entries; on items required by contract with delivery of said guns. Tryon supplied a "cast worm", screw jag (ball puller) and a ramrod with metal end-threaded to fit worm and screw jag, with other end of ramrod to swell out for seating ball. Had measurements for both ends of ramrod, I am now looking for that information.
Agreed most guns of the trade where not well equipped for cleaning, not like a cased gun. Charles E.Hanson, Jr. and myself talked about this several times and the thinking was most items found in old original shooting bags are items that had been aquired over a period of years by its owner. Probably from local blacksmiths, as they seem to have done as much work on the cheaper pieces as the gunsmiths that where far and few in the early years.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado Territory
http://klesinger.com/jbp/swf1.html
__________________________________
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> Well, that depends. Is she pleased at the prospect of moving to Ohio, or
> just waiting to poison me?
__________________________________________
I wish you girls would change the SUBJECT line once in a while. I don't know if we're talking shootin or what.
You guys are as bad as an old uncle of mine, passed on to the other side now and he wouldn't mind if I tell this.
Twenty five years ago in NW PA is where he lived in a slab shanty (he had options - but liked living in that place). Heated by a pot belly stove with the out house out back - you got the picture.
Well, I shot a ground hog and it went back down the hole, while digging it out we found some young foxes. We go to get my Uncle Cliff as he's been a trapper all his 80 some years.
Uncle is sitting on chair in front of his shack, bib- cover-alls, you know the picture. We tell him we got foxes, he jumps up runs to the inside and reappears with a hat and tie.
I yell "what the heck are you doing, we going fox huntin'", he looks at me and replies "I thought we where goin' to fox somethin'". We're all thinking game, me animal - him female.
Does this sound close to some of these SUBJECT lines.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado Territory
http://klesinger.com/jbp/swf1.html
__________________________________
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> > The standard ramrod attachment for smoothbore flintlock trade guns in the
> > 1774 to 1821 period was a gun worm made from 'pinning
> > wire'. It's the only ramrod attachment I've ever seen
> > mentioned in journals or inventory lists.
> > Angela
>
> Agreed most guns of the trade where not well equipped for cleaning, not like a cased gun. Charles E.Hanson, Jr. and myself talked about this several times and the thinking was most items found in old original shooting bags are items that had been aquired over a period of years by its owner. Probably from local blacksmiths, as they seem to have done as much work on the cheaper pieces as the gunsmiths that where far and few in the early years.
> Later,
> Buck Conner
I too have talked to Kindig, Hanson and several others that had the background in research on this subject, and I agree as you have stated - "most items found in old original shooting bags are items that had been aquired over a period of years......".
Everyone I've talked to about this for the last 25 plus years, books read and research all come to this statement - gathered "by its owner". This makes sense when you think about it, you would carry what you use, your line of work and location would also come into the picture. Lots to things to think about, not just an answer that fits everyone.
Take care - we leave as friends,
Lee "Turtle" Boyer
Historical Advisor - Parks & Rec.
State College, Pennsylvania
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> You guys are as bad as an old uncle of mine, passed on to the other side now and he wouldn't mind if I tell this.
>
> Twenty five years ago in NW PA is where he lived in a slab shanty (he had options - but liked living in that place). Heated by a pot belly stove with the out house out back - you got the picture.
> I yell "what the heck are you doing, we're going fox huntin'", he looks at me and replies "I thought we where goin' to fox somethin'". We're all thinking game, me animal - him female.
> Later,
> Buck Conner
[close to some of these SUBJECT lines]
Close but no cigar ?
Met the Uncle he's talking about, a real trapper and a better character from the hills, had some neat stories and knew his business. Had a coon in a hole dead, couldn't get it to many rocks, Uncle Cliff took a piece of barbed wire - bent wire over on one end a few inches, pushed wire down the hole into the dead coon. Turned it around in the hole a half dozen times and pulled the coon out, not a hair was hurt - neat trick to remember.
Take care - we leave as friends,
Lee "Turtle" Boyer
Historical Advisor - Parks & Rec.
State College, Pennsylvania
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> Also, after several firings the damn thing is TIGHT!
As Bill Klesinger has stated Jack Brooks has shown me the same trick with the wooden blocks. When home and tried it on an original pre-1813 Sutherland tradegun that had a questionable area at the breech, it came out as slick as could be. The problem is the odd thread match (barrel to plug)as Bill mentioned, took to a friend with a machine shop to remove a 1/2" off the barrel at the breech, retread the barrel and make a new breech plug for the tang. This turned out to be a lot of work to put an old gun in safe working order. The time involved in matching the odd original threads was more than doing what we did.
I had shot the gun a dozen times then decided to try and pull the breech plug like before, forget it - it was tight with the new threads and matching closer than the original for a tight fit.
The old guns and their matching parts left something to be desired in this area for the originals we both have seen at Brooks, Ron Long's and a few other restorers here in the western states.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado Territory
http://klesinger.com/jbp/swf1.html
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> All the discussion about Waco seems outside the realm of this list. As important as it is, I believe there are other venues available for that.
> Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco
Do you use or shoot a gun, buy black powder, if you do you better wake up pal, the day is coming when you better get good at throwing stones. Gun issues are everyones issue whether it's modern, primitive or just paper punchin'.
That's been the problem in the past, everyone wants the other guy to do the letter writing, lobbying, etc. - for some damn reason the reenacters, historical buffs and want-a-bees are the wants that do the least.
Ask your buddies when was the last time they gave a donation to the NRA, or to GOA, many will just walk away - that tells you how their stick floats. All these other groups that so many belong to are just clubs, they don't lobby, they don't stand up and fight - all they do is publish a a magazine telling you someone shot a 5 10X and collect your money.
The sooner all sportsman wake up and join in the fight with groups that will take a stand, the sooner the assholes in Washington will go to another issue. Sorry Frank this subject is everyone business like it or not.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado Territory
http://klesinger.com/jbp/swf1.html
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> > All the discussion about Waco seems outside the realm of this list. As important as it is, I believe there are other venues available for that.
> > Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco
>
> Do you use or shoot a gun, buy black powder, if you do you better wake up pal, the day is coming when you better get good at throwing stones. Gun issues are everyones issue whether it's modern, primitive or just paper punchin'.
>
> That's been the problem in the past, everyone wants the other guy to do the letter writing, lobbying, etc. - for some damn reason the reenacters, historical buffs and want-a-bees are the wants that do the least.
>
> Ask your buddies when was the last time they gave a donation to the NRA, or to GOA, many will just walk away - that tells you how their stick floats. All these other groups that so many belong to are just clubs, they don't lobby, they don't stand up and fight - all they do is publish a a magazine telling you someone shot a 5 10X and collect your money.
>
> The sooner all sportsman wake up and join in the fight with groups that will take a stand, the sooner the assholes in Washington will go to another issue. Sorry Frank this subject is everyone business like it or not.
>
> Later,
> Buck Conner
Well said Buck, we have to wake up.
Crazyman Pruett
>
> AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado Territory
> http://klesinger.com/jbp/swf1.html
> __________________________________
>
> The AMM Journal.
> The Tomahawk & Long Rifle
> 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403
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> a year - qtr issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov.
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>
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Right List !!! [OFF TOPIC]
Date: 10 Sep 1999 18:32:16 -0700
On Fri, 10 September 1999, "Terry R. Koenig" wrote:
>
> Jeez Buck you sound almost like the government. . . .you not only tell me what my business is, but then go and tell me how to conduct it.
>
> On this subject, I agree with "Bearclaw."
>
> Terry R. Koenig
_______________________________________
Not government Terry, should have deleted the message, but as many know I have fought the Fish & Game in Colorado for years, helped get the muzzle loading season and have now watched BIG BUCK manufacturers almost loose the muzzle loading season with their in-lines and the literature they print about capable of shooting 200 yards. Fish & Game and Colorado gov. look at this - as why have a muzzle loading season, these guns are like high power rifles.
Guess what, you try and get some support from any list, mailings, radio or whatever, and only a few show up, so we have one more year of muzzleloading then who knows what going to happen for muzzle loading season in Colorado. I spent the whole day - at Fish & Game in Denver and then in Fort Collins and it could get shacky.
I should have put [OFF TOPIC] this morning granted, but folks you had better wake up your state may be next. One F&G Officer that I have known for 20 years said even their jobs are getting shacky with budget cuts, less officers in the field, gas budget cut, overtime cut and so on. Even looking at less feeding of animals during bad weather, more winter kill.
And thats only the muzzle loading section, he said wait until you see less days per each season for all the legal season of hunting, etc. for the future for many of the states not just Colorado. The anti-gun movement is real and guns maybe come "real history" when you sit around and tell your grand kids about when you had a muzzleloader one time.
Charles E. Hanson, Jr told me 20 years ago that this was coming, "we will be like most of Europe, you want to shoot you go get a permit - then pickup your gun at the pound", when your done you return the gun and ammo not used. He said if he had to do the Museum Of the Fur Trade over, it would have been a car collection. He told me "if they come to get this stuff I'll burn this building to the ground with everything in it". Now thats "Mr. History", telling it how it will be someday if we don't stand up to the crap, he felt we would fail when the time comes.
Last time to mention this subject, because I am being heard by only a few, others have deleted the message - not my problems, wrong list. This is not pointed at anyone person, it's just trying to make shooters, whether modern or primitive pay attention to what is going on, we are in trouble folks. Ask the Canadians what has started up there, look at in guns in the dumpesters in Aust., we're next.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado Territory
http://klesinger.com/jbp/swf1.html
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The old man is on the war path again about gun control; when he was president of the state muzzleoaders in CO, Moose & Goose shorted the Muzzleloading Season a bunch of permits for elk.
I happened to walk into Buck's store and he on the phone ripping someone a new one, turns out its the head of Fish & Game. He hangs up the phone, looks at me and says let go, we drive 65 miles one way to Denver Fish & Game, Buck wants to talk to this guy in person. He got the permits and they reprinted all the regulations showing the new numbers.
I'm like many on this list, we need a wake up call, modern first then everything, including the muzzleloaders will be in trouble.
Frank you where just in the wrong place at the wrong time friend, he usually is the best guy you know. This gun thing has really got him cranked and we'll in time find out something he knows about it.
Take care - we leave as friends,
Lee "Turtle" Boyer
Historical Advisor - Parks & Rec.
State College, Pennsylvania
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> Good thoughtful comments by Buck, as always. And I for one do
> not think it is too far off topic, as firearm are, and have
> been, our lives. Please, take his comments in a constructive
> way, as they were intended.
Agreed Mike,
Like you, Turtle, Buck, myself and others on this list AND our forefathers; we seen what an armed force can do (through history) to unarmed citizens - Romans to today. I also remember as ones mentioned remember our welcoming home in the 60's and 70's - when was the last time you where spit on brother. Thank God our forefather didn't experience that, or none of us would be here today. Let's change the subject, thanks Buck.
I would be real careful with the bear fat that defrosted, wouldn't know what may be growing without a lab test. Turtle and myself had some buff lard go bad, that's real unusal - because buffalo rendered fat can handle 30 degree to 80 degree weather.
The Amish and Quakers use it for sore libs, like we would use "Heat" or one of the other products for ackes and pains. Buck Na d myself shot a couple of average bears in central PA one time and damn near had to fight to keep the criters. Local Amish women wanted the fat for their cures, we had them loaded and ready to go, everything was cool and then Buck gave them the fat. He came out looking good and I ended up the butt of the whole thing.
Dennis and Turtle could ask the Amish near them about the defrosted fat and what they would do, their ways are as old as we can get for the 1800-1840 period. Probably the "Closter" (not sure of the spelling) are older and have a small settlement near Reading PA if anyone on the list is near there, bear meat and bear fat was a big deal for feasts with these people.
"May the spirit be with you"
D.L."Concho" Smith
Livingston, MO.
Historical Coordinator - Missouri
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Subject: MtMan-List: Be aware of what your buying.
Date: 15 Sep 1999 14:26:08 -0700
Brothers of the AMM and history list members;
The 1000 eye lantern and mold are probably the last of any production, Gobel has stopped making them as of six months ago, he made me these as a favor for the AMM auction. I have the original lantern and personal grader in my collection, plus carry reproduction in my camp equipage.
See AMM auction at: http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1/Auction.htm
GBW has dropped many of the slow sellers from their line of available items, Peter has gotten into the "American Life" magazine trade (not sure if this was such a good thing as work has doubled). If more of the fur trade people would show some interest with ideas of items needed, he may consider helping out with some good items. Mike Rock has lined Peter up with a good source of quality tin for
making tin wear.
As far as what we carry in stock of GBW here at Clark & Sons is their: tin spectacle cases, brass shaving mugs (tinned lined)w/brush pocket, kidney canteens/copper/tin, tin pails w/lids, copper boilers, small trade kettle [SEE NOTE], small period copper boxes, samll tin funnels, small salt barresl, porte-crayons, travel ink wells, small document cases, and we can get anything in his catalog or have done special requests on occassion.
NOTE:
Last weekend I was at an old friends antique shop west of Denver, I spot a nice (old in color) brass-tin lined trade kettle hanging in the back of his store. I asked if I could see it, he explained it had just come in and hadn't been priced yet. I kept thinking I know who makes one like this or this is one of his (Peter Gobel's). I take it outside for better light and in 1/16" scribe along the rim of the kettle I find GBW / PJG, to make a long story short I have some fun with my friend about trying to sell a repro as original, find out it was sold to him by a trader for $100 in trade - this would "keystone" or retail at $200.
I bought the large French trade kettle for that amount $100 to get it out of his stock, it was an early one before Gobel had a stamp - retail today is $170.00. So when looking at these items at a sale or antique dealer - look
them over real close. You maybe paying antique price for a reproduction.
-----Original Message-----
<buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
>Buck- That photo looks great on Dennis' web page. Now someone is going to run the prices on the lantern and the mold well beyond retail.
>
>If you have these and other Gobbel (sp?) items in stock, send me a list so I can get some things from you. > >Thanks.
>
>Paul
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Be aware of what your buying/Now Tin Lantern
Date: 16 Sep 1999 06:48:29 -0700
On Wed, 15 September 1999, JSeminerio@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 9/15/99 5:27:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>> buck.conner@uswestmail.net writes:
>> Brothers of the AMM and history list members;
>> The 1000 eye lantern and mold are probably the last of
>> any production, Gobel has stopped making them as of six
>> months ago, he made me these as a favor for the AMM
>> auction..................
>
>
> TW Moran fronm Livonia Smithery made my tin lantern. He
> swears there at least 1500 piercings .............
______________________________________
NOT THE SAME THING JOHN,
The "1000 Eye" lantern is not a punched tin lantern, it has 3/16 holes cut out of tube sides - 40 to 50 holes, a tube that holds a 3/8" dia. candle w/bail. It was called a "1000 Eye Lantern" by Mad Anthony Wayne when on the frontier (NW PA), originally made in Phila and according to Valley Forge Historical personel was produced in large numbers after the Amer Rev War. This is a Ben Franklin design that was used on the western frontier and at one time the L&C Museum in St. Louis had one on display.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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> On Sat, 18 September 1999, Ronald Schrotter wrote:
>
> I didn't know there were that many porkeaters involved with
> AMM! With all this talk of trail bacon, I am surprised noone
> has mentioned country ham.
Have to agree about all the talk about "trail bacon", only place you would run across it would be in the settlements, you boy's hanging around the forts or trading posts. No traders around or in these parts for months !
"May the spirit be with you"
D.L."Concho" Smith
Livingston, MO.
Historical Coordinator - Missouri
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I have found that saying never is a dangerous thing. And with the bacon subject,I have to disagree with it only being found in "civilization". Read Jacob Fowler's journal- page 73.
"this being a holaday with our nebours we lay by all day-Having about two punds of bacon which I Head kept as a Reseve I Heare Shewd it to the Indeans- the Cheef asked what kind of anemel maid the shape......"
This was Jan 1st 1822. Now he started out sept 6th 1821. So he kept the bacon in good shape till then. I never seen where he decribes how it was prepared, but I find withweek long trips I never had any problem with it.
mike.
Concho wrote:
> > On Sat, 18 September 1999, Ronald Schrotter wrote:
> >
> > I didn't know there were that many porkeaters involved with
> > AMM! With all this talk of trail bacon, I am surprised noone
> > has mentioned country ham.
>
> Have to agree about all the talk about "trail bacon", only place you would run across it would be in the settlements, you boy's hanging around the forts or trading posts. No traders around or in these parts for months !
>
> "May the spirit be with you"
> D.L."Concho" Smith
> Livingston, MO.
> Historical Coordinator - Missouri
> ___________________________________
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
hi all, new to the list but not buckskinning... 29 yr. veteran.
on this subject of bacon.
My BF's family came to florida in 1828. I have read the accounts and lists of victuals they carried... salt cured bacon, in large quantity is among what the menfolk brought. The account mentions that it is packed in
salt... I have been in situations where I have done the same with commercial salt cured, just added lots of salt and it kept for a week.. probably more if i had been able to keep from eating it.
anne.
while I have your attention, thank you for having this list...
finally contact...again... :>)
Mike Moore wrote:
> Guys,
> I have found that saying never is a dangerous thing. And with the bacon subject,I have to disagree with it only being found in "civilization". Read Jacob Fowler's journal- page 73.
>
> "this being a holaday with our nebours we lay by all day-Having about two punds of bacon which I Head kept as a Reseve I Heare Shewd it to the Indeans- the Cheef asked what kind of anemel maid the shape......"
>
> This was Jan 1st 1822. Now he started out sept 6th 1821. So he kept the bacon in good shape till then. I never seen where he decribes how it was prepared, but I find withweek long trips I never had any problem with it.
> mike.
>
> Concho wrote:
>
> > > On Sat, 18 September 1999, Ronald Schrotter wrote:
> > >
> > > I didn't know there were that many porkeaters involved with
> > > AMM! With all this talk of trail bacon, I am surprised noone
> > > has mentioned country ham.
> >
> > Have to agree about all the talk about "trail bacon", only place you would run across it would be in the settlements, you boy's hanging around the forts or trading posts. No traders around or in these parts for months !
> >
> > "May the spirit be with you"
> > D.L."Concho" Smith
> > Livingston, MO.
> > Historical Coordinator - Missouri
> > ___________________________________
> > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
> hi all, new to the list but not buckskinning... 29 yr. veteran.
> on this subject of bacon.
>
> My BF's family came to florida in 1828. I have read the accounts and lists of victuals they carried... salt cured bacon, in large quantity is among what the menfolk brought.............
I think what several are referring to is at events today, sure salted bacon was available in the 1700's etc. That's slab salted bacon (like small hams, chuncks of meat), and that's not what you are seeing as a large view that's showing up at period camps.
The regular sliced bacon is what is seen in most camps, only a few have slab bacon and fewer are heavy salted. When checking camps for correctness (contests, etc.), look in the trash at the plastic wraps from sliced bacon. If your going to do it right why not bring it into camp "right"???
Another thing is seeing many with regular eggs, must be a bunch of wild birds around laying "white" eggs. The turkey eggs we had on the farm where not white, they where light brown or tan in color, as are wild turkey eggs found when hunting (tan to a dirty mellow yellow).
Much of this is just common sense, do some reading. The more research you do on edibles the more items one will find, hell look at Clark & Sons Mercantile, Buck did the research and made a business out of it telling and supplying us with what is right, and for what area, and period. It's all research friends, research, research and more research.
Take care - we leave as friends,
Lee "Turtle" Boyer
Historical Advisor - Parks & Rec.
State College, Pennsylvania
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On Tue, 21 September 1999, Phyllis and Don Keas wrote:
>
> Ok folks, here is one.
> I was reading about Charles Autobees. He worked out of Ft. Hall and
> bought several items from them that are listed in the company accounts. One
> item that acaoght my eye was: "a lined blanket"...............
According to the PA Dutch, Amish and "Common" people a "lined Blanket" is just that. A blanket covered with another blanket, not a "dirt cover", double blanket thickness usually held together with yarn ties spaced 4-6" apart. Ones sewn together can be considered "common" quilts, with different patterns and designs you see the "period" quilt.
Buck's out of town and I'm sure he would be answering this one, as he carries a "lined" blanket with his bedding, has done this for at least 25 years or longer. I have used it on occassion in wet weather for extra insulation from damp ground with a bad back.
Take care - we leave as friends,
Lee "Turtle" Boyer
Historical Advisor - Parks & Rec.
State College, Pennsylvania
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If we are to discuss what is right for a RM rendezvous, then we need to actually only take what was available. and that was what was on the trade lists and what was killed or gathered.
Now the mountaineers where not gathers, (their wives yes)
so what is left. Coffee tea, flower, corn meal, raisins, whisky, sugar.
their was no bacon, salted or other, or eggs, (the wild birds had already laid & hatched)
There was meat, MEAT, and meat, with some jerk. what else?
there was no camp chairs, cooking box's, silver ware, tables, (covered coolers) (beer). for the mountaineers.
Now the trader (singular) may have had a few luxuries. but the regular men and indians had what they came to camp with and what he sold them.
That was not much. mostly, powder, lead, trade items, and whisky.
so if you are to do it right throw out 1/2 your junk, put together a camp that can be be loaded on a horse /mule or two. and have fun.
so lets do it right, drink whisky, fight, and go in for open fornication. this is how a lot of the men carried on. (not all).
I am not stating that no bacon ever made it to the mountains, or other special foods, but it was the exception not the rule.
at our modern camps we tend to live by the exception, it could have happened ! so I can get by with it.
see you at the next mountain carnival (rendezvous)
can anyone tell me the name of a book written by Susan Fecteau about primitive indian dresses and if you have it is it good. This book is mentioned in the first book of buck skinning but no name.
I am LUCKy to have #228 0f the first edition. Would I recommend it??
YES. One of the very first and good informative research papers on women's' dresses. I wish more women would have read this book.
Linda Holley
"Larry R. Weisz" wrote:
> can anyone tell me the name of a book written by Susan Fecteau about primitive indian dresses and if you have it is it good. This book is mentioned in the first book of buck skinning but no name.
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bacon ? (and food at rendezvous)
Date: 25 Sep 1999 08:12:56 -0700
Just got in and started to go through 130 e-mails, saw this one on foods and decided to make a few comments on these items, that we have found over the years working with Hanson and the Museum of the Fur Trade.
> > > Mike Moore wrote:
> > > Glenn,
> > > Thanks for the reminder. A good camp needs good food,
> > > and approiate ones specially. But could you give me
> > > some on input on where you found the pancake turner?
> > > Not heard of that one.......
I haven't been able to find this reference Mike, but Robert Rogers mentioned in a journal note that some of his men where using their hawks to turn eggs and bread when cooking. He worried that the temper of the steel may be weakened if continued over a period of time.
> > > > Glenn Darilek wrote:
> > >
> > > > If we want to strictly reenact a mountaineer
> > > > rendezvous, we would have food that can be
> > > > documented as having been at one of the
> > > > actual rendezvous. We can go one step further in
> > > > using food that would be appropriate for our
> > > > particular personna. Of course, we can assume
> > > > wild game and fish, of any type found.....
According to Charley Hanson, he believed there where more one pot meals, stews, soups, etc. at small encampments than there ever where the full blown meals of the Stuart, Astor and folks that took their own camp followers. Most just ate enough to stop the hunger pains and when on with their daily routine.
> > > > Rice pudding - cooked without eggs and with little
> > > > sugar by Sarah Smith and others. Ms. Smith also
> > > > cooked biscuit...........
Found in settlements, trading posts, or wagon trains, but not usually in camps, these items take time and work to prepare, most camps where involved in trade, preparing for the next days work, etc. Bottom line in much of the food research we have found is fast easy to prepare items, with very little extra efforts to make the meal.
> > > >
> > > > Captain William Drummond Stuart brought: tins of
> > > > preserved................
The items that Stuart and others of wealth had are mis-leading because of one word -"wealth", most attending a rendezvous was of the working class, whether a trader, camp follower or the trapper. Just plain old sellers and buyers, the big money and fancy foods where with the Dukes, Lords and owners that visited or supplied the rendezvous.
I read one account that a person of wealth had taken many fancy foods on a trip in the northeast, most of the food spoiled because the camp people did not know how to take care of it or prepare the items. Remember these are common camp helpers that are use to "common food types".
> > > > A list of other ingredients we know were at
> > > > rendezvous are:
This is only a small list of what was available, much, much more was in camp - brought in or traded for from the locals.
One big thing that was easy to prepare was pumpkin, fruits and nuts culitivated or foraged and traded by the local natives. Look at Mesa Verta and the stone tools used for grinding edibles, they where 500-700 years old before the Europeans came to this New World.
> > > > Cereals:
> > > > Indian meal (corn? or camas?)
> > > > hard bread, hard tack
> > > > meal (corn meal?)
> > > > flour
> > > > rice
> > > >
> > > > Fruits and Vegetables:
> > > > dried fruit
> > > > dried peas
> > > > raisins
> > > >
> > > > Beverages:
> > > > milk
> > > > tea
> > > > cocoa beans
> > > > coffee
> > > > wine
> > > > brandy
> > > > alcohol
> > > >
> > > > Seasonings:
> > > > ginger (for alcohol)
> > > > red peppers (for alcohol)
> > > > pepper
> > > > allspice
> > > > tobacco (for alcohol)
> > > >
> > > > Other:
> > > > salt pork
> > > > bacon
> > > > cream
> > > > butter
> > > > sugar
> > > > black molasses
> > > >
> > > > So you might see that a true, documented rendezvous
> > > > meal does not have to be primitive. Why not plan > > > > your menu around these real mountain man choices?
A correct meal can be prepared using items that have been around for centuries, what was shown so far is only a drop in the bucket to what was available.
> > > > References:
> > > > DeVoto, Bernard, Across the Wide Missouri, Boston,
Gowans, Vestal and several others have written of wrong information recorded by DeVoto, maybe his writings or the ones that did the editing !! Don't just use one source as your reference, we try to have at least 3 or more for our catalog. I'm working on Catalog #5 now with much more food information, and documentation for us and Goose Bay Workshops on cooking items found in N. America during the F&I War to the Fur Trade (see many items that are medival type things and lots of pots that are much later than the 1850 period - India copper was real popular in and after the Civil War, very few early items from there. From what we have found that stuff was at the end or close to the end of the slave trade.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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> On Wed, 22 September 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
> On Tue, 21 September 1999, Phyllis and Don Keas wrote:
>
> >
> > Ok folks, here is one.
> > I was reading about Charles Autobees. He worked out of Ft. Hall and
> > bought several items from them that are listed in the company accounts. One
> > item that acaoght my eye was: "a lined blanket"...............
> ----------------------------------------
> According to the PA Dutch, Amish and "Common" people a "lined Blanket" is just that. A blanket covered with another blanket, not a "dirt cover", double blanket thickness usually held together with yarn ties spaced 4-6" apart. Ones sewn together can be considered "common" quilts, with different patterns and designs you see the "period" quilt.
>
> Buck's out of town and I'm sure he would be answering this one, as he carries a "lined" blanket with his bedding, has done this for at least 25 years or longer. I have used it on occassion in wet weather for extra insulation from damp ground with a bad back.
>
> Take care - we leave as friends,
> Lee "Turtle" Boyer
____________________________________
More like thirty years with a "lined balnket", a common item found with many "common" folks. It's just a way of layering blankets - one or another, then tacked down with usually yarn because of its thickness, it doesn't tear the blanket fabric. I you can think of it as tack points, they are usually done in a pattern to keep the blanket together in a 4", 6", or 8" pattern across the width and lenght of the blanket, SEE Below:
x x x x x
x x x x x
x x x x x
x x x x x
and so on, this just keeps the blankets from becoming balled up when in use. The most lined blankets I have seen was 5, but have read of ones in the New England coast towns of having 7 to 8 balnkets "lined". That would be a hell of a mess getting out of them if nature called.
After 3 major back operations I now use a 3 pile "lined" blanket, that can be folded over to cover you or used as a 6 layer pad in damp weather to help with the cold coming up out of the ground (this is how I use mine most of the time, then use a 4 point CJ Wilde as a cover over me). We use to cut small pine limbs as bedding, but that is looked down on anymore by the US Forest people.
Hope this answers your question, thanks Turtle for the help.
Oh, an old Amish man told me a few years ago; "I see by your bedding you've been hurt or your getting old", he was referring to the "lined" blanket - damn he hit it on both accounts !!!
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bacon ? (and food at rendezvous)
Date: 25 Sep 1999 12:41:23 -0700
> On Sat, 25 September 1999, Buck wrote:
> Just got in and started to go through 130 e-mails, saw this one on foods and decided to make a few ............
YOU HAVE NEVER MADE A FEW COMMENTS BUCK.
> > > > Mike Moore wrote:
> > > > Thanks for the reminder. A good camp needs good food,
> > > > and approiate ones ............
> I haven't been able to find this reference Mike, but Robert Rogers mentioned in a journal note that some of his men where using their hawks to turn eggs and bread when cooking.........
I HAVE USED A FT. MEGI AXE FOR YEARS AS A COOKING TURNER AND DOESN'T SEEM TO HURT THE CUTTING EDGE, JOE D. WOULD NOT LIKE THIS USE OF HIS PRODUCT.
> According to Charley Hanson, he believed there where more one pot meals, stews, soups, etc. at small encampments than there ever where the full blown meals .........
HAVE HAD THE SAME DISCUSSION WITH THE MAN, HE GOT US TO USING ONE POT FOR EVERYTHING, COOKING, WASHING, DRINKING, ETC. - MAKES LIFE MUCH EASIER AND LESS EQPTMT TO LOOK AFTER. BUCK YOU HAVE CARRIED THAT "FRENCH" COPPER POT FOR YEARS;BUCK WOULD TELL THE CANOE BOYS THAT YOU ONLY NEED ONE POT TO:
"EAT OUT OF IT" -
"DRINK OUT OF IT" -
"WASH YOURSELF AND YOUR CLOTHES OUT OF IT" -
AND IT WORKS AS I NOW DO THE SAME.
> Bottom line in much of the food research we have found is fast easy to prepare items, with very little extra efforts to make the meal.
AMEND
> most attending a rendezvous was of the working class, whether a trader, camp follower or the trapper. Just plain old sellers and buyers, the big money and fancy foods where with the Dukes, Lords and owners that visited or supplied the rendezvous.
THIS IS SO TRUE, AND SEVERAL ACCOUNTS MAKE MENTION TO THE WASTE OF FOOD DO TO THE LACK OF KNOWLEDGE IN PREPARING IT.
> One big thing that was easy to prepare was pumpkin, fruits and nuts culitivated or foraged and traded by the local natives. Look at Mesa Verta and the stone tools used for grinding edibles, they where 500-700 years ..........
USE THE BASIC FOODS AND YOU'LL CUT YOUR WEIGHT TO CARRY, WASTED TIME IN PREPARING AND HAVE MORE TIME TO PARTAKE IN THE EVENTS GOING-ON.
Cereals:
Indian meal (corn meal)
Fruits and Vegetables:
dried fruit
dried peas
Beverages:
tea
coffee
whiskey
Seasonings:
pepper
allspice
salt
Other:
salt pork
slab bacon
maple sugar
Havana Brown sugar
I'm working on Catalog #5 now with much more food information, and documentation for us and Goose Bay Workshops on cooking items found in N. America during ...........
WHEN IS THE NEW CATALOG COMING OUT, KNOW YOUR BUSY WITH SALT LAKE PROBLEM, YOUR WIFE SAID YOU HAVE BEEN DRIVING THE WHEELS OFF THE TRUCK THIS WEEK, 3000 MILES AND STILL ROLLING, RATHER YOU THAN ME BUCK.
Take care - we leave as friends,
Lee "Turtle" Boyer
Historical Advisor - Parks & Rec.
State College, Pennsylvania
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Off Topic --- Storage of Black Powder
Date: 25 Sep 1999 13:09:03 -0700
> > Gentlemen:
> > So, I need to find someplace else to store the gun powder.
> > I was wondering what you think of this idea: I plan on
> > placing powder in a 5-gallon plastic pickle bucket with
> > lid,then placing it in a hole under the storm cellar-door
> > and burying it in the ground up to the lid.......
Do you remember years ago when Hopkins & Allen offered the plastic powderhorn with blackpowder - that ended in a law suit after a person wearing a wool shirt had his arm taken off when the container blew up, due to static elect.
A friend of many on this list Ron Long of Denver, gun builder, super shot, etc. was working in his shop testing a flintlock lock, he snapped the lock and a spark landed in his shooting box, setting off the oily blackpowder film and in turn lighting a powder flask. The damage was something to be hold for a small container of powder, took the double door off the garage, blacken the ceiling and tore Ron a new one. He was off work for weeks recovering from body, and ear damage, along with healing from the burns.
I store all my powder in a steel box, lined with plywood and locked, have wheels and handle on it for fast removal in case of fire, all according to code with local and state regulations.
Keep blackpowder away from plastic, or anything that will generate static elect., this stuff can really go off without any good reason according to the folks at Conney's Supply, so use care.
"May the spirit be with you"
D.L."Concho" Smith
Livingston, MO.
Historical Coordinator - Missouri
___________________________________
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bacon ? (and food at rendezvous)
Date: 25 Sep 1999 13:20:51 -0700
Have to agree with everything you said, hear your a truck driver this week.
Later
Concho.
> On Sat, 25 September 1999, Buck wrote:
>
> Just got in and started to go through 130 e-mails, saw this one on foods and decided to make a few comments on these items, that we have found over the years working with Hanson and the Museum of the Fur Trade.
>
> > > > Mike Moore wrote:
> > > > Glenn,
> > > > Thanks for the reminder. A good camp needs good food,
> > > > and approiate ones specially. But could you give me
> > > > some on input on where you found the pancake turner?
> > > > Not heard of that one.......
>
> I haven't been able to find this reference Mike, but Robert Rogers mentioned in a journal note that some of his men where using their hawks to turn eggs and bread when cooking. He worried that the temper of the steel may be weakened if continued over a period of time.
>
>
> > > > > Glenn Darilek wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > If we want to strictly reenact a mountaineer
> > > > > rendezvous, we would have food that can be
> > > > > documented as having been at one of the
> > > > > actual rendezvous. We can go one step further in
> > > > > using food that would be appropriate for our
> > > > > particular personna. Of course, we can assume
> > > > > wild game and fish, of any type found.....
>
> According to Charley Hanson, he believed there where more one pot meals, stews, soups, etc. at small encampments than there ever where the full blown meals of the Stuart, Astor and folks that took their own camp followers. Most just ate enough to stop the hunger pains and when on with their daily routine.
>
> > > > > Rice pudding - cooked without eggs and with little
> > > > > sugar by Sarah Smith and others. Ms. Smith also
> > > > > cooked biscuit...........
>
> Found in settlements, trading posts, or wagon trains, but not usually in camps, these items take time and work to prepare, most camps where involved in trade, preparing for the next days work, etc. Bottom line in much of the food research we have found is fast easy to prepare items, with very little extra efforts to make the meal.
>
> > > > >
> > > > > Captain William Drummond Stuart brought: tins of
> > > > > preserved................
>
> The items that Stuart and others of wealth had are mis-leading because of one word -"wealth", most attending a rendezvous was of the working class, whether a trader, camp follower or the trapper. Just plain old sellers and buyers, the big money and fancy foods where with the Dukes, Lords and owners that visited or supplied the rendezvous.
>
> I read one account that a person of wealth had taken many fancy foods on a trip in the northeast, most of the food spoiled because the camp people did not know how to take care of it or prepare the items. Remember these are common camp helpers that are use to "common food types".
>
> > > > > A list of other ingredients we know were at
> > > > > rendezvous are:
>
> This is only a small list of what was available, much, much more was in camp - brought in or traded for from the locals.
> One big thing that was easy to prepare was pumpkin, fruits and nuts culitivated or foraged and traded by the local natives. Look at Mesa Verta and the stone tools used for grinding edibles, they where 500-700 years old before the Europeans came to this New World.
>
> > > > > Cereals:
> > > > > Indian meal (corn? or camas?)
> > > > > hard bread, hard tack
> > > > > meal (corn meal?)
> > > > > flour
> > > > > rice
> > > > >
> > > > > Fruits and Vegetables:
> > > > > dried fruit
> > > > > dried peas
> > > > > raisins
> > > > >
> > > > > Beverages:
> > > > > milk
> > > > > tea
> > > > > cocoa beans
> > > > > coffee
> > > > > wine
> > > > > brandy
> > > > > alcohol
> > > > >
> > > > > Seasonings:
> > > > > ginger (for alcohol)
> > > > > red peppers (for alcohol)
> > > > > pepper
> > > > > allspice
> > > > > tobacco (for alcohol)
> > > > >
> > > > > Other:
> > > > > salt pork
> > > > > bacon
> > > > > cream
> > > > > butter
> > > > > sugar
> > > > > black molasses
> > > > >
> > > > > So you might see that a true, documented rendezvous
> > > > > meal does not have to be primitive. Why not plan > > > > your menu around these real mountain man choices?
>
> A correct meal can be prepared using items that have been around for centuries, what was shown so far is only a drop in the bucket to what was available.
>
> > > > > References:
> > > > > DeVoto, Bernard, Across the Wide Missouri, Boston,
>
> Gowans, Vestal and several others have written of wrong information recorded by DeVoto, maybe his writings or the ones that did the editing !! Don't just use one source as your reference, we try to have at least 3 or more for our catalog. I'm working on Catalog #5 now with much more food information, and documentation for us and Goose Bay Workshops on cooking items found in N. America during the F&I War to the Fur Trade (see many items that are medival type things and lots of pots that are much later than the 1850 period - India copper was real popular in and after the Civil War, very few early items from there. From what we have found that stuff was at the end or close to the end of the slave trade.
>
>
>
>
>
> Later,
> Buck Conner
>
> AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
> Aux Ailments de Pays!
> _____________________________
>
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
"May the spirit be with you"
D.L."Concho" Smith
Livingston, MO.
Historical Coordinator - Missouri
___________________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Off Topic --- Storage of Black Powder
Date: 25 Sep 1999 13:49:35 +0000
Concho wrote:
> I store all my powder in a steel box, lined with plywood and locked, have wheels and handle on it for fast removal in case of fire, all according to code with local and state regulations.
List members,
Good suggestion from Concho. Allow me to take it a bit farther. Without
Concho supplying actual specifications, this is basically what he is
describing.
Take any size metal box with a watertight fitting lid, made from the
same gauge of steel as most milatary ammo boxes, or use whatever size
ammo box you can get.
Line this box and it's lid with two layers of exterior grade 3/4"
plywood. Do not use any nails through the layers of wood but rather
fasten with a good grade of water resistant glue. Make all joints such
that each layer of plywood overlaps on the mating surfaces in opposite
directions from the last layer. That way there will be a zig-zag in the
corner joints from the outside to the inside. It is ok to use a metal
fastener through the inner joints but the idea is not to have any metal
fasteners communicate from the outside of the box to the inside. Nails
will conduct the heat of a fire through the wood where-as the wood
itself will withstand fire for quit a long time before the inside of the
box gets hot.
Make the two layers of wood on the underside of the lid fit the sides
the same way when the lid is closed. The inside layer of the lid will
come down and rest on the top of the inside layer of side walls. The
upper layer of the lid will come down and rest on top of the upper layer
of the outside walls of the wood liner. The old zig-zag joint is working
here just like at the glue joints. This lid joint and side joints must
be air tight so do a good job measuring and cutting.
Mount the box on casters if it is at all heavy. Tie a rope to it so you
can grab it and run without being close to the box. Store it in the
garage or in an out building if you can. Near the back door or under the
house if not.
The metal box will protect from direct flame impingement and mechanical
damage. The two layers of wood (1-1/2" total thickness) will insulate
from direct flame for a surprisingly long time. The lack of nails or
screws going through the wood will assure that heat is not transferred
through to the interior.
Paint it red and label it. Keep your primers somewhere else.
As Concho said, stay away from plastic and other materials that can
generate static electricity just to be safe.
This may not be the exact specs of a Class ? magazine but it is close.
As an ex-fire fighter, we knew everyone had some kind of hazardous
materials stored around. We were more concerned with how it was stored
than whether you had 25lbs or 50lbs. If it goes up while we were
fighting the fire we probably would not be able to tell the difference.
If someone can come up with the exact spec.'s on magazines please do.
This is from memory and may be a bit off but should be overkill. I
> On Sun, 26 September 1999, Angela Gottfred wrote:
> Canadian fur trade, 1774-1821, for what it's worth.
> Maple syrup: I haven't seen it documented for my period. However, the Canadians had maple sugar, which was made at the more easterly fur posts.................
Angela,
In our country, Thomas Jefferson did as you have mentioned with maple sugar, he used it on everything and even used it as a trade item when dealing for new items for his vegetable garden. In the book Jefferson's Garden he makes a trade final with throwing in a few pounds of maple sugar, this was with a head of state from France - trading for a variety of tomatoe that Jefferson didn't have.
We have carried maple sugar for years and as you have said, you can take corn meal (any of the meals works), hot coffee and maple sugar - mix and you have an instant meal that will give you plenty of engery, taste good and stay with you for several hours of hard work, whether canoeing, trekking or cutting wood for camp.
Thanks for the reminder, one becomes so use to some of these items asked, you just think everyone does the same.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Off Topic --- Storage of Black Powder
Date: 26 Sep 1999 08:10:46 -0700
On Sat, 25 September 1999, "Dennis Mountjoy" wrote:
>
> Capt. Lahti wrote:
>
> > List members,
> >
> > Good suggestion from Concho. Allow me to take it a bit farther. Without
> > Concho supplying actual specifications, this is basically what he is
> > describing.
> >
> > Take any size metal box with a watertight fitting lid, made from the
> > same gauge of steel as most milatary ammo boxes, or use whatever size
> > ammo box you can get.
> >
> > Line this box and it's lid with two layers of exterior grade 3/4"
> > plywood. Do not use any nails through the layers of wood but rather
> > fasten with a good grade of water resistant glue. Make all joints such
> > that each layer of plywood overlaps on the mating surfaces in opposite
> > directions from the last layer. That way there will be a zig-zag in the
> > corner joints from the outside to the inside. It is ok to use a metal
> > fastener through the inner joints but the idea is not to have any metal
> > fasteners communicate from the outside of the box to the inside. Nails
> > will conduct the heat of a fire through the wood where-as the wood
> > itself will withstand fire for quit a long time before the inside of the
> > box gets hot.
> >
> > Make the two layers of wood on the underside of the lid fit the sides
> > the same way when the lid is closed. The inside layer of the lid will
> > come down and rest on the top of the inside layer of side walls. The
> > upper layer of the lid will come down and rest on top of the upper layer
> > of the outside walls of the wood liner. The old zig-zag joint is working
> > here just like at the glue joints. This lid joint and side joints must
> > be air tight so do a good job measuring and cutting.
> >
> > Mount the box on casters if it is at all heavy. Tie a rope to it so you
> > can grab it and run without being close to the box. Store it in the
> > garage or in an out building if you can. Near the back door or under the
> > house if not.
> >
> > The metal box will protect from direct flame impingement and mechanical
> > damage. The two layers of wood (1-1/2" total thickness) will insulate
> > from direct flame for a surprisingly long time. The lack of nails or
> > screws going through the wood will assure that heat is not transferred
> > through to the interior.
> >
> > Paint it red and label it. Keep your primers somewhere else.....................
Roger,
As you and Concho have mentioned, safety is number one with balck powder. Us as non-experienced explosive handlers are many more times more careful than the experts. It must be because they work with explosives all the time that they are or seem careless to our eyes.
I used to live outside Loveland CO on a 300 plus acre farm, the ajoining property buildings where a mile away on those ranches of 800-10,000 acres. You got the picture pretty remote for town living.
A friend (powder explosives expert) is working in the area and ask to store his powder magazine at my place, telling us our blackpowder club could store their powder there too. We usually had a case of 1f, 2f, 3f and 4f on hand (cheaper at that time in quanity, as a member would need powder he would purchase it form the club.
We had a small magazine built like you have shared on the list, my friend Pat shows up with his magazine the size of a large commerical dumpster (like behind your local 7-11). After he unloads it with a back hoe, he tells us it's pretty heavy because all his explosives are inside. When he opens it I was amazed that it was lined with cardboard about a 1/2" thick and thats it, he showed us his federal regulations and that's all that was required - looked pretty shakey to us. That was the longest 3 months we experienced having that bomb sitting there, nice to see it leave.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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Before I relocated from Atlanta to Washington this summer, I saw a post regarding a Rendezvous scheduled for October -- somewhere Lewiston, Idaho. In my hasty departure, I didn't write down the specifics. Was it posted to the list by Lee Newbill?
Anyone with knowledge of this event? If so, please reply off list to Wind1838@aol.com. Since a guest at Dry Cottonwood Creek I have pared my camp from the back of a sports utility vehicle to everything being carried under one arm. (I had a good teacher) I'm anxious to see how well I think I am prepared.
> What kind of stoves did they use. If they were below deck, where did the smoke go. I don't ever recall seeing a chimney on a ship.
>
> How about smaller ships such as privateers. There doesn't seem to be enough space below for a galley. I toured the ship at Jamestown and don't recall seeing any provision for cooking below the deck. As a matter of fact, you couldn't even stand upright below deck. A long voyage across the ocean would take considerable wood to build a fire everyday. Where was the wood stored and how was it kept dry. Wood takes up a lot of valuable space. Did they even cook on board these ships, or just eat hardtack and other cold prepared foods.
_____________________________________
Dave,
That does bring up some thought to hold one would do this, have always read of salted pork, fish and other meats floating in a barrel, fruits of variety where carried, breads, hard tack, etc. - have seen a large cast iron pot with long legs sitting on planks, had a grate on the top (could have been used to cook on), never thought to ask the tour guide what it was used for.
We tried to cook on board (batuea) using a small brazier sitting on water soaked logs, it worked but was more trouble than the effort needed to do the task. We only tried it because the shore was a bogg, hard to find a dry spot to cook on.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
_____________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
I am in the process of moving from Florida to Ohio/W.Va in the next few months.
I am to attend a historic preservation school, majoring in historic reproduction and restoration of metalwork and stained glass
... the area that I shall be moving to is specifically...the school is located in St. Clairsville, Ohio [belmont tech college]. The nearest large town, they tell is 15 minutes away, Wheeling W.Va. I am about 2 hrs SW of Pittsburgh.
Can anyone put me in touch with the local buckskinning groups or an events list?
please reply off list to sabella3@earthlink.net
thanks in advance,
Sabella
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Hi all;
<br>I am in the process of moving from Florida to Ohio/W.Va in the next
few months.
<p>I am to attend a historic preservation school, majoring in historic
reproduction and restoration of metalwork and stained glass
<br>... the area that <i> </i>I shall be moving to is specifically...the
school is located in St. Clairsville, Ohio [belmont tech college].
The nearest large town, they tell is 15 minutes away, Wheeling W.Va.
I am about 2 hrs SW of Pittsburgh.
<p>Can anyone put me in touch with the local buckskinning groups or an
events list?
<p>please reply off list to sabella3@earthlink.net
I'm glad we got on this discussion regarding food. It raises a question concerning a term I lifted from the drudy list of definitions. That word is "feastcakes" for pancakes.
I use this term in my novel. Russell refers to pancakes as "feastcakes." (I'm not saying that he made pancakes and turned them with his hatchet mind you.) I know that terms in the dictionary can be misleading. I had Russell refer to himself as a "bossloper," and Lanney pointed out to me bossloper was a modern-day term referring to the fur trade period. And suggested I refer to Osborne as a "lost Maine boy."
See what I mean? Honest mistake on my part but a mistake nonetheless.
So, gentlemen, before Across the Seasons goes to print . . . should feastcakes stay or go? Hey, I'm not going to have ya'll making wisecracks behind my back for a term I could have corrected before it's typeset.
> I use this term in my novel. Russell refers to pancakes as "feastcakes." <snip>
> So, gentlemen, before Across the Seasons goes to print . . . should feastcakes stay or go? Hey, I'm not going to have ya'll making wisecracks behind my back for a term I could have corrected before it's typeset.
Laura,
My vote goes to using the term "feastcakes". It would also be a good
reason to put a glossary in the back of your book. <G>
>
> What would I do without all of you?
As to your last question, there are many ladies that in a fit of
exasperation with us would say, "You would do just fine!", but I submit,
it wouldn't be as much fun. <G> We do have our uses even if just for
comic relief! Can't wait for the book to be done. I remain......
Impatiently,
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
P.S. Do you want me to keep you posted on our various little treks and
trips around WA. so you can try out your kit? I apologize but I didn't
think to mention the camp we just had over in Eastern Idaho the
17th/19th, for the whole Brigade. Several gals there and you would
> I would much rather cite the work of Bernard DeVoto, who spent
> years researching the subject than add to the excess of
> speculation on the list. I think DeVoto won
> the Bancroft award or Pulitzer for "Across the Wide Missouri."
> .......................
>
> Glenn Darilek
Glenn,
Many well known historians (the Hanson's), teachers and museum personel (Denver Museum of Natural History for one), only use DeVoto as a last resource, over the years many of his statements and research has had flaws; wrong dates, locations, etc. We have only used Bernard as a second source in several museum and historical papers sumitted in our research do to these problems.
Agreed he was there in some cases, the question has always been: was his writings changed when edited, or where they incorrect when written ? If he is the only one you have for a reference, that's all one can do, but most (not all) look a little further in their research.
Take care - we leave as friends,
Lee "Turtle" Boyer
Historical Advisor - Parks & Rec.
State College, Pennsylvania
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Why not leave the term in? Sounds like a good fur trade expression that is just not in use today. Give a note on a explanation, if you feel the least bit uncomfortable with it. But to me, colorful words, expressions and even attitudes can make what ever you are writing only better. We have lost alot of the "old" ways of talking and writing. (And maybe some of it is for the better.) If you worried that your
readers may misinterpret it, find a way to solve the dilemma. But use it if you can.
Laura Glise wrote:
> 12:30 p.m. PST
>
> I'm glad we got on this discussion regarding food. It raises a question concerning a term I lifted from the drudy list of definitions. That word is "feastcakes" for pancakes.
>
> I use this term in my novel. Russell refers to pancakes as "feastcakes." (I'm not saying that he made pancakes and turned them with his hatchet mind you.) I know that terms in the dictionary can be misleading. I had Russell refer to himself as a "bossloper," and Lanney pointed out to me bossloper was a modern-day term referring to the fur trade period. And suggested I refer to Osborne as a "lost Maine boy."
>
> See what I mean? Honest mistake on my part but a mistake nonetheless.
>
> So, gentlemen, before Across the Seasons goes to print . . . should feastcakes stay or go? Hey, I'm not going to have ya'll making wisecracks behind my back for a term I could have corrected before it's typeset.
> > I would much rather cite the work of Bernard DeVoto, who spent
> > years researching the subject than add to the excess of
> > speculation on the list. I think DeVoto won
> > the Bancroft award or Pulitzer for "Across the Wide Missouri."
> > .......................
> >
> > Glenn Darilek
>
> Glenn,
>
> Many well known historians (the Hanson's), teachers and museum personel (Denver Museum of Natural History for one), only use DeVoto as a last resource, over the years many of his statements and research has had flaws; wrong dates, locations, etc. We have only used Bernard as a second source in several museum and historical papers sumitted in our research do to these problems.
>
> Agreed he was there in some cases, the question has always been: was his writings changed when edited, or where they incorrect when written ? If he is the only one you have for a reference, that's all one can do, but most (not all) look a little further in their research.
>
> Lee "Turtle" Boyer
Hey guys,
If you recall about a year ago there was some dicussion about DeVoto and a mistake about location, time, etc. on one of the artists on the Upper Missouri, got quite lengthy between Clay Landry, Allen Chronister, Buck Conner and several others. They found several errors, depending on what book they where referring to, pretty interesting how one editor varied from another telling the same story.
"May the spirit be with you"
D.L."Concho" Smith
Livingston, MO.
Historical Coordinator - Missouri
___________________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
> If you recall about a year ago there was some dicussion about DeVoto and a mistake about location, time, etc. on one of the artists on the Upper Missouri, got quite lengthy between Clay Landry, Allen Chronister, Buck Conner and several others. They found several errors, depending on what book they where referring to, pretty interesting how one editor varied from another telling the same story.
>
> D.L."Concho" Smith
_______________________________________
That was on the AMM list, not the Hist list Concho, it was a discussion about location, time and confussion on DeVoto's statements to the press. I'll share a little of that very long discussion that covered a week or more.
Please excuse the ? that for some reason where originally ', some of them change when saving this to a file in Windows.
Mon, 5 Oct 1998 18:18:35 -0600 (MDT)
Clay,
One of the brothers of the AMM has sent me a fax on our dicussion of Alfred Jacob Miller, a copy of a page of
the[ revised and enlarged first edition ] of "The West of Alfred Jacob Miller" by Marvin C. Ross. (The one I
have is the [ standard first edition ] of the same, and my page number for the quote showed earlier was on XII ).
Page XIX
DeVoto believs that Miller made this excursion with Stewart in 1938, [22] but could not find evidence to support that view. It is true that John Crawford added this footnote to a letter to Stewart from New Orleans on October 11, 1838: ?
Miller is expected here soon. I think he got your letter, his pictures, etc. are here at his old quarters ib Chartres Street; what process he has made I cannot say, but I fear he seems rather lazy.?
[23] (the rest of this information I did not receive as it continues on the next page.)
[22] "Across the Wide Missouri", 359. (In a review of the first edition of "The West of Alfred Jacob Miller"
published in the new York Herald-Tribune, July 22, 1951, DeVoto pointed out correcting that "I was mistaken
in saying that he believed Miller went with Sir William Drummond Stewart to the Far West again in 1838".)
[23] From a letter in the Missouri Historical Society. Clay, I guess it depends on which edition of "The West of Alfred Jacob Miller" you have for reference is how one would consider the facts. But when looking at the statement from "Artists of the West" it seems to have muddied the waters, then DeVoto?s remarks in the New York Herald-Tribune
probably was an attempt to clear what was said before.
(On August 10, 1951 the New York Herald-Tribune quoted Mr. DeVoto as questioning his information in a statement, ? After additional research by one of my aids, these sketches
and drawings may have been copies of other artists works, used for reference by Mr. Miller?. According to the reporter, Bernard was still puzzled by the information of his earlier statement.)
By now everyone is probably tired of my findings and I?m not sure what the purpose continuing on with this would do, so Clay lets go with DeVoto?s last statement in the New York Herald-Tribune of August 10, 1951 for now until additional information becomes available.
Thats what makes research so interesting, there's additional information that changes history over and over
again as its found. The more you look at one little part the more it changes like this Miller thing. As Clay stated
earlier "Alfred Jacob Miller was never on the Upper Missouri River-he went to the Horse Creek rendezvous in
1837 and returned via ..............".
Then you read the other statements by DeVoto from the New York Herald-Tribune, then you wonder did he go with Stewart in 1838 ?
I'm now looking at information where the hell Stewart was in 1838 and what was recorded about his moves, never ending no matter which way you go in your research. But the bottom
line is as Clay Landry or others will agree I'm sure, do the research, then do more and so on. That is what is the interesting part of our sport, and Clay thank you for your time and hope to visit with you soon.
Buck
**********
Buck,
Sorry for the delay in reaponding to your post on Stewart and Miller's where-abouts in 1838. I spent the lst
few days down on the Powder River getting my cabin ready for hunting season-won't be long!!
Your findings and discussion on DeVoto's statements were very interesting. Seems that even the "Great" historians get cross wired! It is relatively easy to find out were
Stewart was located the summer of 1838-where all good mountaineers would be- on the way to Rendezvous-waugh!
The missionaries who traveled with the Dripps rendezvous caravan to the Wind river Rendezvous of 1838 wrote; "Next to the guide was the wagon of Capt Stewart with four mules attached. The owner of this outfit was an English Gent. traveling for pleasure,,," -- Cushing Eells.
Stewart headed back to St. Louis in August as was in St. Louis by September 1838. He had received the news of his brother John's deathe and was making plans to return home.
According to Ron Tyler, in his book on Alfred Jacob Miller, Miller was moving his studio from New Orleans to Baltimore in July of 1838.
Wonder where ole Bernard got his original idea that Miller and Stewart where on the upper Missouri river? Go figure!
Clay
Aux Ailments de Pays!
**********
Clay,
How high up the Missouri do Bodmer's paintigs go? Can you identify the exact location of many of the paintings on the landscape?
Do you think it would be possible to do an analysis of vegetation trends along the Wild and Scenic Missouri
from the art of Point, Bodmer, and others?
Dave
**********
Dave
Bodmer and Prince Maximilian went all the way up to Fort McKenzie in 1833-located at the mouth of the Marias and Missouri. One of his paintings is of two Indian tribes at war just outside the walls of the Fort, whilest the white guys look on form behind the walls.
In looking at the Bodmer art I doubt that you can tell much about the grass and shrub species along the river........
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bacon ? (and food at rendezvous)
Date: 28 Sep 1999 11:03:25 +0000
turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
> HAVE HAD THE SAME DISCUSSION WITH THE MAN, HE GOT US TO USING ONE POT FOR EVERYTHING, COOKING, WASHING, DRINKING, ETC. - MAKES LIFE MUCH EASIER AND LESS EQPTMT TO LOOK AFTER. BUCK YOU HAVE CARRIED THAT "FRENCH" COPPER POT FOR YEARS;BUCK WOULD TELL THE CANOE BOYS THAT YOU ONLY NEED ONE POT TO:
> "EAT OUT OF IT" -
> "DRINK OUT OF IT" -
> "WASH YOURSELF AND YOUR CLOTHES OUT OF IT" -
> AND IT WORKS AS I NOW DO THE SAME.
> ----------------------------------
Turtle,
Simple question. How big is that copper pot. Height, width? For one
know of any rondvoos this weekend in Arkansas, Texas, Missouri or Tenn.</font></font></font> <font face="Arial"><font color="#000000"><font size=-1>Thank
you, Tommy</font></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font color="#000000"><font size=-1>I make Knives</font></font></font>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bacon ? (and food at rendezvous)
Date: 28 Sep 1999 17:35:54 -0700
On Tue, 28 September 1999, R Lahti wrote:
>
> turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> > HAVE HAD THE SAME DISCUSSION WITH THE MAN, HE GOT US TO USING ONE POT FOR EVERYTHING, COOKING, WASHING, DRINKING, ETC. - MAKES LIFE MUCH EASIER AND LESS EQPTMT TO LOOK AFTER. BUCK YOU HAVE CARRIED THAT "FRENCH" COPPER POT FOR YEARS;BUCK WOULD TELL THE CANOE BOYS THAT YOU ONLY NEED ONE POT TO:
> > "EAT OUT OF IT" -
> > "DRINK OUT OF IT" -
> > "WASH YOURSELF AND YOUR CLOTHES OUT OF IT" -
> > AND IT WORKS AS I NOW DO THE SAME.
> > ----------------------------------
>
> Turtle,
>
> Simple question. How big is that copper pot. Height, width? For one
> person? I remain.....
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
____________________________
Hey Cap,
I sold him the brass - tin linned pot made by GBW, so if it's OK I'll answer your question.
Bottom - 5" in dia.
Top - 5-3/4" w/a 1/4" rolled edge.
Depth - 3-1/2" bottom to top of rolled edge.
Iron hand forged bail, riveted ears for bail.
Weight - 20.4 oz.
I use a tin cover w/a tab loop ring for removal, Turtle does not use a lid, last time out with him he used a small flat rock. Being brass they seem to heat at a fast rate and do hold the heat for a period (better than tin). You have enough room to feed 3-4 men along with "bannock' bread filler. Hope this answers your question, have Turtle's butt busy doing some work on new catalog.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
_____________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bacon ? (and food at rendezvous)
Date: 28 Sep 1999 21:10:42 -0400
Gots one just like it, Small English trade kettle... Wouldn't trade it for anything...
And a fella can't drink 7 of 'em full of rum....Believe me..<G>
D
Buck wrote:
>
> ____________________________
> Hey Cap,
>
> I sold him the brass - tin linned pot made by GBW, so if it's OK I'll answer your question.
>
> Bottom - 5" in dia.
> Top - 5-3/4" w/a 1/4" rolled edge.
> Depth - 3-1/2" bottom to top of rolled edge.
> Iron hand forged bail, riveted ears for bail.
> Weight - 20.4 oz.
>
> I use a tin cover w/a tab loop ring for removal, Turtle does not use a lid, last time out with him he used a small flat rock. Being brass they seem to heat at a fast rate and do hold the heat for a period (better than tin). You have enough room to feed 3-4 men along with "bannock' bread filler. Hope this answers your question, have Turtle's butt busy doing some work on new catalog.
>
> Later,
> Buck Conner
>
> AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
> Aux Ailments de Pays!
> _____________________________
>
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bacon ? (and food at rendezvous)
Date: 29 Sep 1999 10:06:42 -0700
> Buck wrote:
> You have enough room to feed 3-4 men along with "bannock' bread filler. Hope this answers your question, have Turtle's butt busy doing some work on new catalog.
> ________________________________
> R Lahti wrote:
> Buck,
>
> Thanks. That was what I was looking for. I guess I was curious as to how big or little a pot you felt comfortable carrying. I carry two pots made of copper that nest. Ones I made myself. Small one is about 4.5" by 4.5"
> and the big one is about 5.5" by 5.5".........
>
> ________________________________
Cap,
Do you have enough room to pack your edibles in your pots, that was one requirement I wanted when looking at the different sizes available from the number of sources.
This small pot will hold enough edibles, tea or coffee bean for a week camp for two, tie the lid on to keep from loosing contents and keep criters out. This one that I have now is starting to get some good miles on it from a number of trips testing equipage.
This is something everyone should consider doing; test your equipment - how many different uses can each items be used for.
Example a long handle (6-7") hand-forged spoon with a hook or loop on the handle end can be used for several camp duties, such as lifting hot items from a cooking fire, hangs to dry, long enough to reach the bottom in most cooking pots, have used hook to carry fish and other items that are slippery.
Another example is the cooking pot, it can have several uses like; cooking your meal, boiling your water, washing you and your camp items, washing your clothing, a fire bucket and a water container.
Alway select an item that can be used for several uses, less to care for or carry; our forefathers (most common folks that is) did not have the resources to own all the neat types of equipage we see available today, if it was even available.
With research we find some items advertised today are modern items or ideas that have been reproduced to look old and sold as correct, when they where not even invented yet for the advertsied time period. Look at the Rev War books available that show actual equipment from the period, lots of good information, many of these items we see today, only made of modern materials like stainless steel or plastic.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
_____________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
WE MUST HAVE A SHORT MEMORY, JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO SOMEONE WAS YELLING ABOUT SEVERAL MEMBERS OF THIS LIST GETTING "OFF TOPIC" ABOUT GUN ISSUES AND OTHER ITEMS THAT DID NOT FIT THE FUR TRADE TIME FRAME OF LATE 1700'S TO MID 1800'S. TIGHTEN UP YOUR BELT, HERE WE GO AGAIN, SORRY DEAN.
> WE MUST HAVE A SHORT MEMORY, JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO SOMEONE WAS YELLING ABOUT SEVERAL MEMBERS OF THIS LIST GETTING "OFF TOPIC" ABOUT GUN ISSUES AND OTHER ITEMS THAT DID NOT FIT THE FUR TRADE TIME FRAME OF LATE 1700'S TO MID 1800'S. TIGHTEN UP YOUR BELT, HERE WE GO AGAIN, SORRY DEAN.
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bacon ? (and food at rendezvous)
Date: 29 Sep 1999 16:24:20 +0000
Buck wrote:
> Cap,
>
> Do you have enough room to pack your edibles in your pots, that was one requirement I wanted when looking at the different sizes available from the number of sources.
Buck,
Well I thought I did. My biggest pot is as big as yours but deeper. MIne
is, as I said, about 5.5" by 5.5". I carry a smaller pot inside to cook
in. The larger pot makes water for drinking. Not big on carrying enough
water on my person for a week! Since we are at it I would be curious as
to what and how much food you carry for a weekend (3 and 2) or a week (7
and 5 ). I may be eating too good. <G> Well there is no doubt about
that. My food sack for a weekend is almost as small as my big pot but of
course won't go in because I am carrying the small one too. I am always
looking for new ways of getting the job done right so what say you? I
> I thought we had agreed to sanction a certain amount of "chat" as long as it was clearly identified as Off Topic....................
Hey Pat,
We where just kidding you after all the baloney that several others got doing the same as you, no need for an apology. You did as we all agreed to. Many of us are from that era, and know what and why it was brought up, thanks.
Take care - we leave as friends,
Lee "Turtle" Boyer
Historical Advisor - Parks & Rec.
State College, Pennsylvania
___________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
On Wed, 29 September 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> On Wed, 29 September 1999, Pat Quilter wrote:
> > I thought we had agreed to sanction a certain amount of "chat" as long as it was clearly identified as Off Topic....................
>
> Hey Pat,
>
> We where just kidding you after all the baloney that several others got doing the same as you, no need for an apology. You did as we all agreed.............
> Lee "Turtle" Boyer
Come on girls, lighten up dudes.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
_____________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bacon ? (and food at rendezvous)
Date: 29 Sep 1999 18:12:42 -0700
> Buck,
>
> Well I thought I did. My biggest pot is as big as yours but deeper. MIne is, as I said, about 5.5" by 5.5". I carry a smaller pot inside to cook in. The larger pot makes water for drinking. Not big on carrying enough water on my person for a week! Since we are at it I would be curious as to what and how much food you carry for a weekend (3 and 2) or a week (7
> and 5 ). I may be eating too good...........I am always
fruit [dried apples or peaches](same measurement per person),
dried meat strips broken into 3" pieces (same measurement per person),
parched corn w/local nuts (same measurement per person),
tea (same measurement per person, lasts for 3-4 days) a little on the weak side last day.
_____________________________
This has worked for a 5 day outing, moving around camp, scouting, etc. but only lasts about 3 hard days of paddling (hard work will use up your supplies very fast).
_____________________________
With blue corn meal - sugar added, wild rice, split peas, barley, fruit, meat, blue parched corn and tea each person can eat until they satisfy the hunger pains, yet can add to his diet with foraged items also. We have found that we get along just fine with this and have brought some supplies back if the foraging was good. I know several that do with much less, but they are always playing camp dog too.
I have found that in the last few years food is the last thing I worry about, bad but true, I'm usually so happy to be on the ground and away from normal life, eating a meal is very low on my list. Would rather be scouting the area or just being with old friends in camp.
_____________________________
Hope this makes sense, answering this as the little woman is telling me I'm late for a meeting.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
_____________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
> On Wed, 29 September 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> >
> > On Wed, 29 September 1999, Pat Quilter wrote:
> > > I thought we had agreed to sanction a certain amount of "chat" as long as it was clearly identified as Off Topic....................
> >
> > Hey Pat,
> >
> > We where just kidding you after all the baloney that several others got doing the same as you, no need for an apology. You did as we all agreed.............
> > Lee "Turtle" Boyer
>
> Come on girls, lighten up dudes.
> Later,
> Buck Conner
No problem Pat, like Turtle said, only kidding and seeing how Buck was one of the folks that got yelled at, but anyone that calls a friend a girl should get all the carp anyone can give him, Sh... I guess I can say that here, look for a message off list Buck - girls my a....
"May the spirit be with you"
D.L."Concho" Smith
Livingston, MO.
Historical Coordinator - Missouri
___________________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bacon ? (and food at rendezvous)
Date: 29 Sep 1999 18:30:22 -0700
On Wed, 29 September 1999, Buck wrote:
>
> > Buck,
> >
> > Well I thought I did. My biggest pot is as big as yours but deeper. MIne is, as I said, about 5.5" by 5.5". I carry a smaller pot inside to cook in. The larger pot makes water for drinking. Not big on carrying enough water on my person for a week! Since we are at it I would be curious as to what and how much food you carry for a weekend (3 and 2) or a week (7
> > and 5 ). I may be eating too good...........I am always
> fruit [dried apples or peaches](same measurement per person),
> dried meat strips broken into 3" pieces (same measurement per person),
> parched corn w/local nuts (same measurement per person),
> tea (same measurement per person, lasts for 3-4 days) a little on the weak side last day.
> _____________________________
>
> This has worked for a 5 day outing, moving around camp, scouting, etc. but only lasts about 3 hard days of paddling (hard work will use up your supplies very fast).
> _____________________________
>
> With blue corn meal - sugar added, wild rice, split peas, barley, fruit, meat, blue parched corn and tea each person can eat until they satisfy the hunger pains, yet can add to his diet with foraged items also. We have found that we get along just fine with this and have brought some supplies back if the foraging was good. I know several that do with much less, but they are always playing camp dog too.
>
> I have found that in the last few years food is the last thing I worry about, bad but true, I'm usually so happy to be on the ground and away from normal life, eating a meal is very low on my list. Would rather be scouting the area or just being with old friends in camp.
> Buck Conner
---------------------------
Capt. Lahti',
I think me and Turtle have been getting screwed on our rations, more like a 1/2 hand full when canoeing with him, "I don't care about food", hell he's eating an extra handfull of our food.
Next time Buck your in the front where we can see what's going on around the rations.
"May the spirit be with you"
D.L."Concho" Smith
Livingston, MO.
Historical Coordinator - Missouri
___________________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bacon ? (and food at rendezvous)
Date: 29 Sep 1999 18:47:59 +0000
Concho wrote:
> Capt. Lahti',
> I think me and Turtle have been getting screwed on our rations, more like a 1/2 hand full when canoeing with him, "I don't care about food", hell he's eating an extra handfull of our food.
>
> Next time Buck your in the front where we can see what's going on around the rations.
>
> "May the spirit be with you"
Concho,
The "Spirit" will be with you if you guys don't start getting your fair
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bacon ? (and food at rendezvous)
Date: 29 Sep 1999 21:30:57 +0000
> Cap,
> I usually figure a cupped hand-full of:
>
> corn meal (per person)mixed with Hanava sugar,
> wild rice (same measurement per person),
> barley-pearled (same measurement per person),
> split peas (same measurement per person),
> fruit [dried apples or peaches](same measurement per person),
> dried meat strips broken into 3" pieces (same measurement per person),
> parched corn w/local nuts (same measurement per person),
> tea (same measurement per person, lasts for 3-4 days) a little on the weak side last day.
> _____________________________
>
> This has worked for a 5 day outing, moving around camp, scouting, etc. but only lasts about 3 hard days of paddling (hard work will use up your supplies very fast).
> _____________________________
Buck,
That's a bit more varied a list of ingredients that I or my fellows
carry. Might we impose on you as to how you utilize those items in meals
over the course of a weekend or week's period of time, as in recipe's
and for which meals and how many meals, etc.? I remain....
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bacon ? (and food at rendezvous)
Date: 30 Sep 1999 05:18:17 -0400
I think too it might depend on how large your hand it...mine is small...even I'd starve to death if I had to use that as a measure..
::smiles::
R Lahti wrote:
> > Cap,
> > I usually figure a cupped hand-full of:
> >
> > corn meal (per person)mixed with Hanava sugar,
> > wild rice (same measurement per person),
> > barley-pearled (same measurement per person),
> > split peas (same measurement per person),
> > fruit [dried apples or peaches](same measurement per person),
> > dried meat strips broken into 3" pieces (same measurement per person),
> > parched corn w/local nuts (same measurement per person),
> > tea (same measurement per person, lasts for 3-4 days) a little on the weak side last day.
> > _____________________________
> >
> > This has worked for a 5 day outing, moving around camp, scouting, etc. but only lasts about 3 hard days of paddling (hard work will use up your supplies very fast).
> > _____________________________
>
> Buck,
>
> That's a bit more varied a list of ingredients that I or my fellows
> carry. Might we impose on you as to how you utilize those items in meals
> over the course of a weekend or week's period of time, as in recipe's
> and for which meals and how many meals, etc.? I remain....
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bacon ? (and food at rendezvous)
Date: 30 Sep 1999 04:34:17 -0700
On Wed, 29 September 1999, R Lahti wrote:
>
> Concho wrote:
>
> > Capt. Lahti',
> > I think me and Turtle have been getting screwed on our rations, more like a 1/2 hand full when canoeing with him, "I don't care about food", hell he's eating an extra handfull of our food.
> >
> > Next time Buck your in the front where we can see what's going on around the rations.
> >
> > "May the spirit be with you"
>
> Concho,
>
> The "Spirit" will be with you if you guys don't start getting your fair
> share! <G> I remain....
>
> Capt. Lahti'
Hey Cap.
Just a couple weenies.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
_____________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
On Thu, 30 September 1999, Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com wrote:
> Lee,
>
> Good question hoss. I have used a copper pot for 20 some years but it never has
> made me sick or anything, and I've cooked everything available in it.
>
> With this concern about copper maybe we should take a look at the waterlines
> throughout our modern homes...why doesn't that kill us all dead?
>
> There ought to be someone on this list who could tell us if it's the copper or
> the stuff it gets soldered together with that makes the difference eh?
____________________________________________
Rick,
From what the health dept. tells us its a combination of all of the above, and a few other things that will make us sick.
In older houses, you can find lead/iron/steel/and plastic piping carrying water, usually put together with odd lead/glues and unknown compounds. All this helps to add with the problem. One person at the Colorado Dept. of Health told me they have now found chemical makeup problems with some of the plastic pipe used in new housing, it's always something. The smarter we get about such things, the dumber we find we have been. The old statement "don't do you body functions in the same area as your eating functions", and several others along this line, where common sense to our forefathers.
That old well or spring didn't seem to have problems, same as that old copper or brass pot that your great grandmother used, as the tinned surface wore off, she would assign it differnt duties and use the new one for the acidic jobs.
I'm starting to think past generations just generalized a death or illness as a "heart attack" or "natural causes", not the different reasons seen today, made life with less tress anyway. Like this subject, you just didn't do this or do that, because it was bad for you, you didn't ask why or prove it like we do today.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
_____________________________
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amounts of food needed (while in camp).
Date: 30 Sep 1999 10:49:16 -0700
On Wed, 29 September 1999, R Lahti wrote:
>
> > Cap,
> > I usually figure a cupped hand-full of:
> >
> > corn meal (per person)mixed with Hanava sugar,
> > wild rice (same measurement per person),
> > barley-pearled (same measurement per person),
> > split peas (same measurement per person),
> > fruit [dried apples or peaches](same measurement per person),
> > dried meat strips broken into 3" pieces (same measurement per person),
> > parched corn w/local nuts (same measurement per person),
> > tea (same measurement per person, lasts for 3-4 days) a little on the weak side last day.
> > _____________________________
> >
> > This has worked for a 5 day outing, moving around camp, scouting, etc. but only lasts about 3 hard days of paddling (hard work will use up your supplies very fast).
> > _____________________________
>
> Buck,
>
> That's a bit more varied a list of ingredients that I or my fellows
> carry. Might we impose on you as to how you utilize those items in meals
> over the course of a weekend or week's period of time, as in recipe's
> and for which meals and how many meals, etc.? I remain....
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
______________________________________________
Cap.,
Lets start with the measurement for a "cupped hand-full"
= ( 1) measuring cup.
This doesn't sound like much, I agree, but remember most dried edibles do swell when water is added. Rice, barley and peas will double in size or amount prepared.
Most of us (not all) can go with less food from a few days to several weeks without any problem - doctors will tell you that the amount we eat regularly is a mind-set in most cases, we can do with less and would probably do better weight and health wise anyway.
We try to eat two small regular meals daily, gathering or foraging for edibles in our short trips around camp when scouting game or looking at the area. When you get in a mind-set of watching for edibles as you make your scouts, it's surprising what you find, even if not hunting for squirrel, rabbits or flying foul. Wild edibles are everwhere it's just the problem of figuring out what your looking at.
Working around water is always a good place for small plants that are edible, as well as the little crawl fish, fish and small animals getting a drink. I think you are getting the idea or already do this in your normal outing experiences.
I have a good friend that I wrote an article about a few years ago in the T&LR journal Dr. Jerry LaVelle, he's an expert at foraged edibles in the Rockies, takes a small frying pan, buffalo grease, period fishing kit and he's off for the weekend. His wife gets a little rattled about his limited resources, but he uses what is available at hand, cat-tail flour for bread (bannock), has different plant leaves for a salad and so on, she's good for about two weekends like this a year. But it can be done, so she goes to prove that she's a tough as he is !!!! I wish I had the mind-set, the ability or guts to believe enough in myself to do this as much as he has.
Morning meal:
corn meal w/Havana Brown sugar,(Havana Brown is an old sugar [less costly than white sugar in the colonial days] have switch to blue corn - better taste) 1/2 cup per person with water, a few small pieces of fruit and small amount of tea (save the tea leaves), (forgot to put down two hand-fulls of corn flour last night), use a 1/2 cup per person of flour to make "bannock" bread (will produce a loaf per say the size of a regular hot dog). Surprisingly this will satisfy you, no matter what your brain says.
Aftrenoon snack:
some parched corn, a little fruit and whatever you may find in your travels.
Evening meal:
with a little testing you will be able to judge the amount of rice or barley needed to make a small portion, and not waste anything. We have used mixed small amount of wild rice, barley-pearled, split peas and a little jerky (changing the meal of one or two items) to make a stew, make with a little more water than what your wife would use - fills you up with the broth. Use your used tea leaves for a mild tea flavor. Use any left overs and try and eat late in the evening (going to bed on a full belly).
Don't forget what you have foraged during the day that can be prepared to supplement your evening or morning meal. Our biggest problem seems to be mind-set that we are going to starve, hell you'll die from lack of water long before you'll starve.
An old friend (in his mid 70s') had a heart attack, had been very active all his farming life, he refused any medical care when he found it was possible he would not walk again, his doctor respected his wishes and had him taken home. I would visit him in the evenings, he refused food and liquids and it took him 14 days to die. The lack of liquid is what shut him down, he only lost a few pounds in that period.
So the chance of you doing great harm on a weekend or a week from the lack of food is really not a major problem according to most doctors, unless you have medical problems, special medication, etc. that may require you to use with food.
But do make sure you keep liquids in your system, plus a good drank of water is some what filling by it's self.
This all sounds great, right. Well it's easier to write or tell it - than when packing for that adventure, you'll find yourself cheating and adding this and that - just in case. You'll stop and think and remember that first hunting trip (a day long) and all the extra stuff you took that Dad told you wasn't needed, well just in case.
The big thing Cap. is do some testing the night the wife had to work late, make up a meal, simple - small in amount, bottom line is testing brother. With your experience you'll have know problem, it's just that mind-set that we all fight with. I'm always packing and unpacking different amounts, if you take just so much - small amount of food, and leave out "the just in case" factor. Then your options are get along with what you got and start foraging.
I wrote Bill Klesinger (web master) for the Jim Baker Party web site, and he will put that article on "Edibles of the Rockies" on the site this weekend if everything goes OK. This may give you some ideas about foraging and what the wild plants have to offer each and everyone of us.
Keep in touch friends.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: screening for metal toxicity[OFF TOPIC]
Date: 30 Sep 1999 12:32:27 -0700
> Along with this discussion on copper is the issue
> of lead contamination with those of you all that "live" with your guns, especially those who were/are in the military.
> Lead, along with other heavy metals, is a cumulative posion that is retained in the body. Even at low levels, lead that is not excreted through the digestive system accumlates in the body and is absorbed directly from the blood into other tissues, there to do damage--sublty and insidiously.
> I will waive my normal consulting fee ($75.00 an hour) for those on the list who would like a heavy metal screening which includes screening for toxic levels of minerals. There would only be the lab charge. This is my contribution to my new "family".
> Contact me off list at vapate@juno.com
>
> Thanks,
> Victoria
_______________________________________
This is probably considered OFF TOPIC, STOP right there. OUR lives - today are as important as the facts of history. AND we are involved in a sport that has allot to due with this subject, don't e-mail yet. LEAD BALLS friends, melting, casting and just plain handling, we are touching lead that is harmful to our systems. NOT CRYING WOLF.
But wouldn't it be useful to find more out about possible problems, preventives or possible tests to see where you, me or a friend is at as far as amounts we already have.
Victoria, what is involved in testing, what dangers are we possibly looking at, etc. How would someone half way around the world be tested that is not able to afford travel or has the time to do so. You got our attention, probably most have been aware of it, just didn't bother to really go any further than close the book the article was in.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: screening for metal toxicity[OFF TOPIC]
Date: 30 Sep 1999 12:57:09 -0700
Hey you got my attention, please tell us more Victoria.
Turtle.
On Thu, 30 September 1999, Buck wrote:
>
> > Along with this discussion on copper is the issue
> > of lead contamination with those of you all that "live" with your guns, especially those who were/are in the military.
> > Lead, along with other heavy metals, is a cumulative posion that is retained in the body. Even at low levels, lead that is not excreted through the digestive system accumlates in the body and is absorbed directly from the blood into other tissues, there to do damage--sublty and insidiously.
> > I will waive my normal consulting fee ($75.00 an hour) for those on the list who would like a heavy metal screening which includes screening for toxic levels of minerals. There would only be the lab charge. This is my contribution to my new "family".
> > Contact me off list at vapate@juno.com
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Victoria
> _______________________________________
>
> This is probably considered OFF TOPIC, STOP right there. OUR lives - today are as important as the facts of history. AND we are involved in a sport that has allot to due with this subject, don't e-mail yet. LEAD BALLS friends, melting, casting and just plain handling, we are touching lead that is harmful to our systems. NOT CRYING WOLF.
>
> But wouldn't it be useful to find more out about possible problems, preventives or possible tests to see where you, me or a friend is at as far as amounts we already have.
>
> Victoria, what is involved in testing, what dangers are we possibly looking at, etc. How would someone half way around the world be tested that is not able to afford travel or has the time to do so. You got our attention, probably most have been aware of it, just didn't bother to really go any further than close the book the article was in.
>
>
> Later,
> Buck Conner
>
> AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
> Aux Ailments de Pays!
> _____________________________
>
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Take care - we leave as friends,
Lee "Turtle" Boyer
Historical Advisor - Parks & Rec.
State College, Pennsylvania
___________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amounts of food needed (while in camp).
Date: 30 Sep 1999 14:02:11 +0000
Buck wrote:
<snip>
>
> This doesn't sound like much, I agree, but remember most dried edibles do swell when water is added. Rice, barley and peas will double in size or amount prepared.
>
> Most of us (not all) can go with less food from a few days to several weeks without any problem - doctors will tell you that the amount we eat regularly is a mind-set in most cases, we can do with less and would probably do better weight and health wise anyway.<snip>
Buck,
Thanks for the little dissertation. Very useful and I will pass it
around to my Party (lots of guys that like to eat including me <G>). I
hear what you are saying. We do well but we can always learn. You
obviously are doing it better and so I am picking your brain cause it
may be years before we camp together. We all experiment and what I take
has evolved down quit a bit but I can see room for improvement.
What I read in your bill of lading and your recipe's is a list to give
variety but about a 1/2 cup ration per prepared meal, give or take. I'll
work with that and see what I end up with for myself. Thanks again and
know that I'll be back if I can think of any more questions.
I'm looking forward to the article on edibles in the Rockies. I
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: screening for metal toxicity[OFF TOPIC]
Date: 30 Sep 1999 14:03:56 -0700
OK, it's off topic, casted lead whatevers for ever, now what do I due, not selling the front stuffers. Are there any signs that will tell me I need help ? Keep still Dennis, Buck, Turtle and the Capt.
Concho
____________________________________
> Hey you got my attention, please tell us more Victoria.
>
> Turtle.
> -------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Along with this discussion on copper is the issue
> > > of lead contamination with those of you all that "live" with your guns, especially those who were/are in the military.
> > > Lead, along with other heavy metals, is a cumulative posion that is retained in the body. Even at low levels, lead that is not excreted through the digestive system accumlates in the body and is absorbed directly from the blood into other tissues, there to do damage--sublty and insidiously.
> > > I will waive my normal consulting fee ($75.00 an hour) for those on the list who would like a heavy metal screening which includes screening for toxic levels of minerals. There would only be the lab charge. This is my contribution to my new "family".
> > > Contact me off list at vapate@juno.com
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Victoria
> > _______________________________________
> >
> > This is probably considered OFF TOPIC, STOP right there. OUR lives - today are as important as the facts of history. AND we are involved in a sport that has allot to due with this subject, don't e-mail yet. LEAD BALLS friends, melting, casting and just plain handling, we are touching lead that is harmful to our systems. NOT CRYING WOLF.
> >
> > But wouldn't it be useful to find more out about possible problems, preventives or possible tests to see where you, me or a friend is at as far as amounts we already have.
> >
> > Victoria, what is involved in testing, what dangers are we possibly looking at, etc. How would someone half way around the world be tested that is not able to afford travel or has the time to do so. You got our attention, probably most have been aware of it, just didn't bother to really go any further than close the book the article was in.
> >
> >
> > Later,
> > Buck Conner
__________________________________
"May the spirit be with you"
D.L."Concho" Smith
Livingston, MO.
Historical Coordinator - Missouri
___________________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amounts of food needed (while in camp).
Date: 30 Sep 1999 14:17:20 -0700
On Thu, 30 September 1999, R Lahti wrote:
>
> Buck wrote:
> <snip>
> >
> > This doesn't sound like much, I agree, but remember most dried edibles do swell when water is added. Rice, barley and peas will double in size or amount prepared.
> >
> > Most of us (not all) can go with less food from a few days to several weeks without any problem - doctors will tell you that the amount we eat regularly is a mind-set in most cases, we can do with less and would probably do better weight and health wise anyway.<snip>
>
> Buck,
>
> Thanks for the little dissertation. Very useful and I will pass it
> around to my Party (lots of guys that like to eat including me <G>). I
> hear what you are saying. We do well but we can always learn. You
> obviously are doing it better and so I am picking your brain cause it
> may be years before we camp together. We all experiment and what I take
> has evolved down quit a bit but I can see room for improvement.
>
> What I read in your bill of lading and your recipe's is a list to give........................
>
> Capt. Lahti'
Hey Capt.,
Buck is always changing what he takes, check with him in the spring and only a few of these items will remain. The gentleman he mentioned is very good and the Baker Party is lucky to have him around to pick his brain.
The problem I have always had with foraging is what is a good plant and what is one that will make me sick.
Mr. LaVelle was or is President of the Mushroom folks also, lots of knowledge on this subject as well as edibles, ran into him at "Rabbit Stick" last year, really into the Mesa Verta CO people (cliff dwellers), their life styles, etc.
So he's practicing earlier primitive skills than most of us, that's cool, he's building fires with wood drills, we're using flint and steel. reason for mentioning this is I proof read the article that will be on the Baker web site.
"May the spirit be with you"
D.L."Concho" Smith
Livingston, MO.
Historical Coordinator - Missouri
___________________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amounts of food needed (while in camp).
Date: 30 Sep 1999 16:27:33 +0000
Concho wrote:
>
> Hey Capt.,
>
> Buck is always changing what he takes, check with him in the spring and only a few of these items will remain. The gentleman he mentioned is very good and the Baker Party is lucky to have him around to pick his brain.
Concho,
I'm always looking to pick someone's brain when it comes to food. <G>
Got to remember our bunch lives and wanders in the part of the Rockies
where Lewis and Clark and the Wilson Price Hunt Party (our AMM Party
namesake) dang near starved to death! Finding and figuring out what to
eat out here is fun and a challenge. I'm awaiting further word! I
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amounts of food needed (while in camp).
Date: 30 Sep 1999 21:02:20 -0400
Hey Guys,
No-one else has brought it up, but I will Insects and such are a great protien source. And are abundent all but in the dead of Winter.....Don't forget our crawly friends..
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: screening for metal toxicity[OFF TOPIC]
Date: 30 Sep 1999 18:25:46 -0700
Victoria,
I will contact Dean myself and ask for his permission for you to list the general information, then those interested can contact you off_list for personal needs. This way only those interested in going further will be in contact with you, saving you sometime with e-mail, etc.
Does this seem fair to those on this list, something to consider and a lesson our forefathers didn't know about - lead poisioning and other health problems in reenacting their life styles!!!!
I'll wait until Sunday to see how those interested feel, we'll try and keep this to a min. on the list. E-mail me at buck.conner@uswestmail.net and let me know if we should continue or to drop the subject, the results will be counted at 12 noon mst and I'll either contact Dean or we'll just drop the deal, that seems fair to everyone and keeps traffic down on a [OFF TOPIC] subject.
