Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:51:57 -0500
Date: 01 Jun 1999 14:16:33 -0700
For 25 years several of us from a muzzleloading club (The Buckhorn Skinners) from CO would go to the museum before the tourist season and make a second trip after that season. Charley Hanson would line us up with rooms at the Best Western, and we would do 2 1/2 to 3 day periods taking pictures, taking notes or listening to Charley tell us about different items. We never left without dropping up to several hundred dollars (a piece at times) on items that were extras that the museum had for sale.
We have given labor when they tore down the Safeway Store in town and gave the blocks to the museum, to helping clean cases or whatever the Hanson's needed. Charley would call a few weeks before we were due to go up and have me buy nails, brass screws or whatever he was in need of and save him the shipping. Below I enclosed a tribute that was in the AMM Journal after Mr. Hanson's passing.
A friend to all that met him
Friend to all that met him and a personal friend for over 25 years, Charles E. Hanson, Jr. has passed away as of Wednesday the 4th of February, 1998.
A native of Nebraska, an engineer, a spokesman, writer, museum director and so on, you just read his tribute, nice words but words are hard to come to mind in trying to explain the feeling one feels for someone like Charles E. Hanson, Jr. He was not only a friend to us all, but someone we looked up to, a man that would help when one needed questions answered and always able to smile even though he was
down physically or mentally.
I first met Charley in the mid 60Æs at the ôAntique Gun Collectors Showö at Colfax and Broadway in Denver, CO in the old VFW Hall, he was talking to Jack Lewis, a world known antique gun collector and
trader from Ohio. I had known Jack from a few years before, as my father was really into pre Civil War items and had dealings with Mr. Lewis several times. They were discussing a gatling gun at the door into the hall, it was serial number NO. 1 , in new condition and just a beauty per Charley. He stroked that gun like it was one of his kids, Jack introduced me to Mr. Hanson and that was the being of a long friendship.
Over the years as time would allow with work and home life, I would call and have Charley make a reservation for a few nights at a friendÆs motel then slip away to Chadron and walk back into a different time zone. The Fur Trade was alive and well at Charley and MarieÆs house, sometimes a few friends would tag along or my Dad, sometimes I would make the trip from Denver alone. Either way the closer I got the faster I would drive, wanting as much time as possible to spend freezing my feet in mid winter looking at the many items on display, really didnÆt matter which case we were viewing, just being there was the best part. Charley would come out of the office and ask us to come in and get warm, no heat in the building other than his office when the museum was closed to the public.
We would sit around him and ask questions and he would disappear for a moment then return with a book for reference and we would discuss the subject for hours. Then as our voices got softer with lack of
moisture, Marie would appear from no wear, carrying a coffee pot, cups and home made pumpkin bread, or pumpkin cookies, or pumpkin rolls or pumpkin ............. whatever. She would tell us each time that this happened, that living in this country, the only thing she could grow was pumpkins and more pumpkins. ôMarie could make anything one can think of with pumpkinö Charley would say as we all agreed, and damn good too. We knew she was having fun with us, we had been there enough to see the period garden and other projects these two had tried in that ground.
Over the years I have called on Charley for information on articles that I would be writing or to get his opinion on how to make something, or the availability of an item for such and such or a place and time.
He was always there with an answer and if he did not know, would do a little digging in his wonderful library and send you the information. He provided this type of service for thousands of students of the fur
trade over the years, and half the time never even got a ôthank youö. We used to tell him to charge for his knowledge or his resources, he would just laugh and say something like ôI enjoy helpingö or ôI donÆt want to turn anyone awayö. The cost of postage alone would make most people stop the service, but Charley and Marie would just keep going ahead with doing their thing and never complain.
In the 70Æs when the Wounded Knee problem started to the north of Chadron, word got out after several of the kids from the reservation took items from their museum and sold them for booze on the west coast. They were going to come down to the Museum of the Fur Trade and do the same thing, the town folks got ready to defend the Museum until the National Guard got the OK to get involved.
I was up at the Museum the next week, back in the library with Charley. Down one aisle was an old 92 Winchester leaning against the shelves, Charley remarked it was loaded as were several others within the building. He was ready to handle what needed to be done, if needed. I bet those kids would have had more than ôwounded kneesö if they came into CharlieÆs place and started trouble, that old boy would have filled their shorts with some hot lead from one of those old 44/40Æs.
Seems everytime we were at Charley and MarieÆs, they would have a fur trade story or two to tell us, their research never ended and some of the funny stories are priceless that they could tell, I will give you a few examples.
A Count or Duke that came over from Europe to hunt in the New World, he had as the first thing on his schedule, hire a guide, experienced in the wilderness and able to handle a party of gentlemen on a hunt, a
person was found and a deal was made. In the arrangement the guide was to receive a trade gun for part of his payment, the agreement was completed and the local got his smoothbore.
Before leaving the guide had a sight-in for his employers and a chance to try his new gun. To make the story short, he finds his trade gun does not shoot to point of aim, removes the barrel wraps it in a blanket and puts one end in the crouch of a tree and leans on it a touch. He then assembles his gun, while his employers watch in disbelief, this is repeated several times until it shoots to his satisfaction. Near the end of the hunting trip the guide has out shot his employers and one gentlemen tries to trade the guide out of the smoothbore.
╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖
Another story told of a English trader, who would make his rounds to different Indian villages on the Canadian border near Montreal and down to Rochester, N.Y, visiting each settlement about every other
year as a normal practice. One of his trade items, guns, along with the usual other trade goods, picked up from sources in Canada.
As time pasted on, replacement arms were always needed, missions where being set up and Indians were being taught to read and more trade was going on with others in the area. On one of his visits to a village he found that only a few guns were needed and the trade went poorly, upon looking around he discovered a young Indian was reading a paper on the repairs of a lock and had the needed parts for the repair in a small kit supplied by another trader. Up to this point selling arms was considered not dangerous, because they would break and be thrown away, but now with the knowledge to repair them, there is danger with the natives having arms. ôGod what have we done, created demonsö, was this gentlemenÆs first remark about his find..
╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖
The stories that friends of these two could tell would fill this issue and several others, may God take care of Marie, we know heÆs already looking out for Charley and like mentioned before.
If you close your eyes and let your mind wonder, you too may see what many can invision, a camp fire with figures sitting around, a closer look at this scene the faces become clearer and right in the middle sits Charley asking questions, taking notes and living on every word of passed adventures as names of men and their deeds come together.
God Bless both of you.
ôWaughö
Buck Conner
AMM Baker Party,/CO
________________________________________________
> On Mon, 31 May 1999, Laura Rugel Glise wrote:
>
> Glad you asked about the Chadron Museum, and, now that school is out, I
> can address this issue at 6:30 a.m. EST.
>
> I live in Atlanta and first journeyed to the Riverton, Wyoming 1838
> Rendezvous reenactment three years ago. I was doing research on a
> novel, historical fiction, pertaining to the beaver trade. The second
> time I made the trip to Riverton, I stopped in Chadron. Whoa baby.
>
> I had done enough research to know how much More I had to learn. I was
> overwhelmed, and felt extremely pressured to get all the "details"
> correct. I went to the museum by myself and spent four hours wandering
> through the dimly lit halls, peering into each museum case like it was
> Santa's workshop. It was wonderful. These are just a few of the things
> I encountered that surprised me:
>
> I had no idea what a carrot of tobacco looked like or
> that dyed cotton plaids from Madras were trade goods or
> what a Baidarka was (an enlarged kayak) or
> what a bait box of cherry wood looked like.
>
> I didn't know that Miles Standish, New York City, was the most famous
> American trap maker before the Civil War. I didn't know that some
> vermillion came from Holland. I didn't know there were wooden egg boxes
> in the 1830s.
>
> I saw double-edged pocket combs made of boxwood, horn and brass. I
> learned Jim Bridger used an English rifle made by J. J. Henry in
> Boulton, PA. I saw a red and blue Chief's coat (Hudson's Bay Company)
> with one sleeve blue with a red cuff and the other sleeve red with a
> blue cuff, a mirror image, with gold braid down the front panel and
> buttons down the front. Gorgeous. I saw my first percussion rifle, .46
> cal., by M. Dickson of Louisville, KY, and my first Deringer, Armstrong
> Pattern, .47 cal.
>
> I had the opportunity to meet Diane Chambers (Book of Buckskinning III
> on beadwork) a couple of months ago. She told me that the museum let
> her camp in their parking lot, and after museum hours, actually go into
> the museum cases and count the rows of beads and made notes for articles
> she wanted to reproduce.
>
> If you ever needed a reason to go to Nebraska, this is it.
>
> Laura Glise
> Atlanta
>
> "Any Friend that is in Need is Welcome to my India Weed."
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Hey Mike, now that you mentioned it have done the same thing and shot that same little double, forgot about that, thank you. Once in awhile Charley would get a wild hair and do something like that.
Buck
_________________________________
> On Tue, 01 June 1999, Mike Rock wrote:
>
> Charlie was a dear one. In 78 after dad had died, I went out to
> Scottsbluff on business. Stopped by on the way to the Hills and Charlie
> was cleaning guns before the 'touri' influx. I cleaned and polished and
> drooled. Cleaned some more. Along in the afternoon, Charlie says,
> don't clean those two. Ok. He grabbed a horn and some bags. He threw
> corn cobs and I shot a sweet little double gun. Hit, too. Then he
> dragged out a Hawken, and I can't for the life of me remember whose it
> was. The double was Kit Carsons. Shot a few more and then cleaned
> them. He said, "I always wondered how that little double would shoot".
> He had never fired it himself, but half a dozen people over the years
> had felt Kit's spirit fill them. Raises the hair on my arms now just to
> remember.
>
> God Bless you Charlie.
>
> And God Bless you Buck.
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I was with Buck, and several others from that club, and I got to shoot Kit's double and hit, well almost, darn close and that's neat.
Turtle.
PA Colonies
> On Tue, 01 June 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> Hey Mike, now that you mentioned it have done the same thing and shot that same little double, forgot about that, thank you. Once in awhile Charley would get a wild hair and do something like that.
>
> Buck
> _________________________________
> > On Tue, 01 June 1999, Mike Rock wrote:
> >
> > Charlie was a dear one. In 78 after dad had died, I went out to
> > Scottsbluff on business. Stopped by on the way to the Hills and Charlie
> > was cleaning guns before the 'touri' influx. I cleaned and polished and
> > drooled. Cleaned some more. Along in the afternoon, Charlie says,
> > don't clean those two. Ok. He grabbed a horn and some bags. He threw
> > corn cobs and I shot a sweet little double gun. Hit, too. Then he
> > dragged out a Hawken, and I can't for the life of me remember whose it
> > was. The double was Kit Carsons. Shot a few more and then cleaned
> > them. He said, "I always wondered how that little double would shoot".
> > He had never fired it himself, but half a dozen people over the years
> > had felt Kit's spirit fill them. Raises the hair on my arms now just to
> > remember.
> >
> > God Bless you Charlie.
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Your getting old, you where not within a foot of that apple, damn the older you get the closer you think you where. If we're around 20 years from now, you'll be claiming to have skinned and diced that apple. I bet Kit wondered who in the hell let this fool shoot my double. On second thought, maybe that's how some of these stories got started, old age !!!!
Have a nice day.
Later
Buck
____________________
> On Tue, 01 June 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> Hey guys,
> I was with Buck, and several others from that club, and I got to shoot Kit's double and hit, well almost, darn close and that's neat.
> Turtle.
> PA Colonies
>
>
> > On Tue, 01 June 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote:
> >
> > Hey Mike, now that you mentioned it have done the same thing and shot that same little double, forgot about that, thank you. Once in awhile Charley would get a wild hair and do something like that.
> >
> > Buck
> > _________________________________
> > > On Tue, 01 June 1999, Mike Rock wrote:
> > >
> > > Charlie was a dear one. In 78 after dad had died, I went out to
> > > Scottsbluff on business. Stopped by on the way to the Hills and Charlie
> > > was cleaning guns before the 'touri' influx. I cleaned and polished and
> > > drooled. Cleaned some more. Along in the afternoon, Charlie says,
> > > don't clean those two. Ok. He grabbed a horn and some bags. He threw
> > > corn cobs and I shot a sweet little double gun. Hit, too. Then he
> > > dragged out a Hawken, and I can't for the life of me remember whose it
> > > was. The double was Kit Carsons. Shot a few more and then cleaned
> > > them. He said, "I always wondered how that little double would shoot".
> > > He had never fired it himself, but half a dozen people over the years
> > > had felt Kit's spirit fill them. Raises the hair on my arms now just to
> > > remember.
> > >
> > > God Bless you Charlie.
>
>
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
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Being the gentlemen that I am and feeling that you are trying to make me feel bad, I think I should........... Nuts I forgot what I was going to say.
You have a nice too.
Turtle.
> On Tue, 01 June 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> Turtle,
> Your getting old, you where not within a foot of that apple, damn the older you get the closer you think you where. If we're around 20 years from now, you'll be claiming to have skinned and diced that apple. I bet Kit wondered who in the hell let this fool shoot my double. On second thought, maybe that's how some of these stories got started, old age !!!!
>
> Have a nice day.
> Later
> Buck
> ____________________
>
> > On Tue, 01 June 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
> >
> > Hey guys,
> > I was with Buck, and several others from that club, and I got to shoot Kit's double and hit, well almost, darn close and that's neat.
> > Turtle.
> > PA Colonies
> >
> >
> > > On Tue, 01 June 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey Mike, now that you mentioned it have done the same thing and shot that same little double, forgot about that, thank you. Once in awhile Charley would get a wild hair and do something like that.
> > >
> > > Buck
> > > _________________________________
> > > > On Tue, 01 June 1999, Mike Rock wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Charlie was a dear one. In 78 after dad had died, I went out to
> > > > Scottsbluff on business. Stopped by on the way to the Hills and Charlie
> > > > was cleaning guns before the 'touri' influx. I cleaned and polished and
> > > > drooled. Cleaned some more. Along in the afternoon, Charlie says,
> > > > don't clean those two. Ok. He grabbed a horn and some bags. He threw
> > > > corn cobs and I shot a sweet little double gun. Hit, too. Then he
> > > > dragged out a Hawken, and I can't for the life of me remember whose it
> > > > was. The double was Kit Carsons. Shot a few more and then cleaned
> > > > them. He said, "I always wondered how that little double would shoot".
> > > > He had never fired it himself, but half a dozen people over the years
> > > > had felt Kit's spirit fill them. Raises the hair on my arms now just to
> > > > remember.
> > > >
> > > > God Bless you Charlie.
> >
> >
> > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
>
>
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
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> On Tue, 01 June 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> Being the gentlemen that I am and feeling that you are trying to make me feel bad, I think I should........... Nuts I forgot what I was going to say.
>
> You have a nice too.
> Turtle.
>
>
> > On Tue, 01 June 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote:
> >
> > Turtle,
> > Your getting old, you where not within a foot of that apple, damn the older you get the closer you think you where. If we're around 20 years from now, you'll be claiming to have skinned and diced that apple. I bet Kit wondered who in the hell let this fool shoot my double. On second thought, maybe that's how some of these stories got started, old age !!!!
> >
> > Have a nice day.
> > Later
> > Buck
> > ____________________
> >
> > > On Tue, 01 June 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey guys,
> > > I was with Buck, and several others from that club, and I got to shoot Kit's double and hit, well almost, darn close and that's neat.
> > > Turtle.
> > > PA Colonies
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Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Need Info on Museums in WY, MT, CO
Date: 02 Jun 1999 12:47:05 -0700
I read that the property owners (where the cabin was) have donated it to Old Town in Cody, WY. This was a couple years ago as I recall. It was planned to be moved to that location for all to enjoy.
Buck
_____________________________________
On Wed, 02 June 1999, "Sickler, Louis L" wrote:
>
> Ken,
>
> I, too, don't recall her name, it's in my notes at home, but the
> curator told us that some archaeologists were going to start a survey this
> year on the north slopes of Battle Mtn in hopes of finding the exact
> location. I'm pretty sure it's on private property or else I would have done
> some poking around myself.
>
> If Lee decides to go that way, maybe he can find more info for us. I
> would like to go back there again this summer, learn a little more and camp
> out. Like I said, it's beautiful country - but where is it NOT in these
> Shining Mtns ???
>
> RC
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: KC764@aol.com [SMTP:KC764@aol.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 10:00 AM
> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need Info on Museums in WY, MT, CO
> >
> > There is a little old lady who is the
> > caretaker, if she is still alive. I believe her name is Virginia. I was
> > there in 1984, so she may no longer be with us.
> >
> > I would like to hear more about John Johnstons cabin and it's location.
> > Does
> > anyone know the exact location? This is one thing I was searching for
> > when
> > last I was in the Little Snake River country. This was last year, after
> > the
> > Ham's Fork RDV. No one in the area, that I found, knew this info.
> >
> > Carp
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Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Need Info on Museums in WY, MT, CO
Date: 02 Jun 1999 13:48:51 -0700
As I recall, they had base logs, foundation stones and the doorway stone, maybe some fireplace stones, think that was all, according to the article; may have been in one of the United Airlines magazines or one of those Travel magazines for Wyoming vistors.
Buck Conner
AMM Baker Party/Colorado
_____________________________
> On Wed, 02 June 1999, "Sickler, Louis L" wrote:
>
> Buck,
>
> What were they going to move? I thought that the reason archaeologists were
> getting involved was that there was nothing to see above ground, much less
At Dances with Wolves, Michael Terry was wanting things that were not in the the script or within the available funding, he was told this several times by different directors. I have several friends that produced many of the items of the Native American's wardrobe for and at that movie.
When the actors are rolling around in the grass or crawing in the mud you don't use real good quality quill or beadwork, from the camera angle and distance the Honk Kong stuff works fine. What some folks have to realize is the mighty dollar plays a big role in Hollywood.
At the Mountain Men, Drums Along the Platte, Centennial, Black Robe and a few "B" rated movies, as well as TV specials that we have been in; makeup people as well as special clothing people will try and change your personal clothing to meet what their paperwork says you should look like. I have seen makeup try and put Tandy Leather dye on brain-tanned shirts and leggings, not knowing what the cost would be in wrecking these items. They seem to want to make everyone look dirty even at rendezvous, Jerry Crandall (historical research, commerical artists, etc.) talked until blue in the face about being wrong, he got no where, as others have found.
Buck Conner
___________________________
> On Thu, 03 June 1999, Laura Rugel Glise wrote:
>
> 7:00 a.m. EST
>
> Michael Terry was the guest speaker two years ago in Pinedale, Wyoming.
> The Pinedale Museum and the Wyoming Humanities Council hired him in
> conjunction with their annual Rendezvous reenactment. He was
> fascinating. People of all ages and backgrounds sat for up to two hours
> at a time listening to him.
>
> He dropped out of high school and lived in a tipi for a couple of years
> and studied; teaching himself the craftsmanship and skills of many of
> the plains Indian tribes. He was a consultant on Dances with Wolves,
> and was constantly criticizing the inaccuracies. He was repeatedly
> told, "Michael, we are making entertainment here, not a documentary."
>
> If you have the book for sale, save a copy for me. I'm stopping in on
> Monday, June 28 when I come to Wyoming. Look forward to meeting you.
> Still have any of those lodge-quality buffalo hides available?
>
> Laura Glise
> Atlanta
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> >Many of the brothers have made this trip from Ft. Benton passed Judith Landing and further >south on the Upper Missouri, reading what has been stated almost 200 years before brings back >fond memories of this land and what we have all seen - then and now.
>
> > If you have never made this trip please write it down as a "must adventure to do",
Absolutely. I made the trip from Ft. Benton to Judith landing last year with some
members of the Les Miserables Primitives, and the CoHT, and I was awed by the
area. We camped on several L&C sites, on the anniversary of L&C's stay on
those same sites. Laid over at the white cliffs two days, and found the pictograph
of the horse on the bluff near Eagle creek, as well as the lodge rings on the hill
above the campsite, and attended a healing sweat lodge run by a traditional
Tarahumara healer. The view from the top of of the bluffs across from the
camp area is awesome Good stuff. I highly recommend that trip
To Michael Terry and the history_list several of us have made a terrible mistake, apparently there are several gentlemen with like names. The person referred to was not the gentlemen that is the writer of the book mentioned earlier on this list, so I've been informed, his name was Mike Terry ! Close but a big mistake and poor Michael Terry got blasted by mistake, I am sorry, and please Michael and the hist_list except my apology in this matter.
Like the old saying goes, "get your facts straight", and as shown I saw the name and was thinking of another person and not the gentlemen mentioned.
Again please except my apologies for the blunder Bad Hand.
Buck Conner
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TV & film (was: New Book)
Date: 07 Jun 1999 10:22:52 -0700
On Mon, 07 June 1999, Angela Gottfred wrote:
> This isn't to suggest that the TV/film industry never makes mistakes; but
> rather, that sometimes they do know what they're doing, although it may seem
> very strange at first. (That doesn't mean you should let them use leather
> dye on your buckskins, though!)
>
I agree that some do know what's going on, and then again have seen others do some real screw-ups, like used motor oil on a nice birch bark canoe (thank goodness it was their's), the leather dye on brain tanned, along with other questionable acts. I quess as long as it's not personal to you, so whatever.
Buck Conner
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Names that close and both being in the same type of activities, mistakes happen. You have done what is right with your apologies to the man and the list, that should make things right. Mistakes are just that, and you guys where big enought to stand up and admit the problem and hopefully that's the end of it.
Personality I didn't think anything either way until the apology, but some may wonder, hell we have all said or done something that turned out wrong and will probably do the same thing again before cashing in.
Powderhawk
____________________
> On Mon, 07 June 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
> I guess I need to say sorry also, and please Michael and the hist_list except my apology in this matter. I guess "lather" is a bad word !
> Michael and Mike are darn close for names, who would have thought different.
> Turtle.
> >
> > Like the old saying goes, "get your facts straight", and as shown I saw the name and was thinking of another person and not the gentlemen mentioned.
> >
> > Again please except my apologies for the blunder Bad Hand.
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Twenty five years ago while visiting Charles E. Hanson, Jr. we too were talking about percussion caps, their difference now and then. The Museum had several boxes of original caps from the late 1840's to mid 1850's according to the information Charley had on manufactuer, label details, etc.
They were cheap for what they were, so I bought both boxes and we decided to try several caps from each box, then try some of the new German percussion caps, CCI and Remington. Wanting to compare the difference if the old girls would go off to the new manufactured ones at the time.
Out of (10) original caps only 6 went off, one kind of made a fizzzzzsss..... sound and the other three wouldn't do anything, even after being snapped several times. We finally decided that the old caps would be equal to Remington's if new, but not as hot or responsive as the CCI and no where close to the Hot German caps.
The caps mentioned on this subject earlier were of the musket "hat" type from the 1830's, the caps we had were at least 10-15 years newer design, not having the flattened rim and smaller in dia., the Green River Hawken had a no.11 nipple that was a little smaller dia. than the original caps tested, but standard for our caps of the day.
I was just impressed that they went off, and surprised that they would discharge a blank test round, but like Charley said this was tried in prefect conditions, not in the field or various climate changes that would be experienced. These caps have laid in storage all their life and probably in the best of possible conditions, as had the new percussion caps, so other than age the test was really not a test, other than the original caps would still fire.
Later
Buck Conner
> On Tue, 08 June 1999, "larry pendleton" wrote:
>
> The thinking seems to be that the men of that time were just slow to take
> to the new percussion system, and that may be true. It is also my
> understanding that the caps of that time were not nearly as dependable as
> what we have today. If anyone has any info as to whether they were are were
> not as dependable as today's caps, please jump in here . Besides, it's my
> contention that ye cap belongs on ye head. <G>
> Pendleton
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You where lucky that any of them caps went off, of course I remember the original blunderbust that came into your store in Masonville, CO and we got to playing with it and took it out back, but a new flint in her and she discharged a load of stuff that had been in it's belly for who knows how long. The lady that brought it in told Ben Thompson that it had been in her care for 60 years when she sold it to you guys. Now thinking about it that was really dumb shooting out the charge, could have been anything - even modern powder.
So old precussion caps, old black powder can still work even after years of being stored in the barrel of a gun or resting on the nipple of one. All of us need to be careful about such things.
I saw Buck's friend and store manager Ben Thompson put an old percussion cap on a bad nipple and the damn think went off turning a few fingers black and blue. Pretty serious for Ben, he only has one arm.
Be careful when handling these items they are not toys - big boys.
Turtle.
> Out of (10) original caps only 6 went off, one kind of made a fizzzzzsss..... sound and the other three wouldn't do anything, even after being snapped several times. We finally decided that the old caps would be equal to Remington's if new, but not as hot or responsive as the CCI and no where close to the Hot German caps.
>
> The caps mentioned on this subject earlier were of the musket "hat" type from the 1830's, the caps we had were at least 10-15 years newer design, not having the flattened rim and smaller in dia., the Green River Hawken had a no.11 nipple that was a little smaller dia. than the original caps tested, but standard for our caps of the day.
>
> I was just impressed that they went off, and surprised that they would discharge a blank test round,............
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
> Names that close and both being in the same type of activities, mistakes happen. You have done what is right with your apologies to the man and the list, that should make things right. Mistakes are just that, and you guys where big enought to stand up and admit the problem and hopefully that's the end of it.
>
> Personality I didn't think anything either way until the apology, but some may wonder, hell we have all said or done something that turned out wrong and will probably do the same thing again before cashing in.
>
> Powderhawk
> ____________________
> > On Mon, 07 June 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
> > I guess I need to say sorry also, and please Michael and the hist_list except my apology in this matter. I guess "lather" is a bad word !
> > Michael and Mike are darn close for names, who would have thought different.
> > Turtle.
> > >
> > > Like the old saying goes, "get your facts straight", and as shown I saw the name and was thinking of another person and not the gentlemen mentioned.
> > >
> > > Again please except my apologies for the blunder Bad Hand.
>
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 12:11:58 -0700 (PDT)
> From: George Noe <gnoe39@yahoo.com>
> Subject: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps
>
> Can anyone date "caps" in the mountains eariler than
> Joe Meeks 1836?
>
> ===
> George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > 1005 W.Donkey Ln. Marlow Ok. 73055
> Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.
> >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 20:20:43 -0700
> From: randybublitz@juno.com
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps
>
> Those percussion caps, etc.. are a cute idea, but they won't catch
> on.....Hardtack
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 20:49:35 -0700
> From: "john c. funk,jr" <j2hearts@shasta.com>
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps
>
> Lets look at it this way. Virtually any cap you carry into the woods today
> (assuming were talking primitive re-enactment) is a MODERN item and NOT a
> replica of days gone by. Unless you have a "large" nipple on your gun and a
> "top hat" type cap, you ain't replicating days of yore..........so.....let
> your conscience by your guide. By the same token, flints of today are the
> same product of yesterday.
> Assuming that's why the subject was brought up (time and again) originally.
> John Funk
>
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: <randybublitz@juno.com>
> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 1999 8:20 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps
>
> > Those percussion caps, etc.. are a cute idea, but they won't catch
> > on.....Hardtack
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 03:22:37 -0500
> From: kestrel@ticon.net
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps
>
> >Those percussion caps, etc.. are a cute idea, but they won't catch
> >on.....Hardtack
> Hmmmm,I got powder,I got ball,but I ain't got no nipple huggers, guess I'll
> throw this da## thing at the bear!
> Ya can always find a piece of flint,what do ya do when run out of caps?
> Jeff Powers,A mind like a steel trap:Rusty and illegal in 37 states!
>
> SOUFLE,SOUFLE, La Vielle
>
> Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: 9 Jun 1999 11:04:40 -0700
> From: <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps
>
> Twenty five years ago while visiting Charles E. Hanson, Jr. we too were talking about percussion caps, their difference now and then. The Museum had several boxes of original caps from the late 1840's to mid 1850's according to the information Charley had on manufactuer, label details, etc.
>
> They were cheap for what they were, so I bought both boxes and we decided to try several caps from each box, then try some of the new German percussion caps, CCI and Remington. Wanting to compare the difference if the old girls would go off to the new manufactured ones at the time.
>
> Out of (10) original caps only 6 went off, one kind of made a fizzzzzsss..... sound and the other three wouldn't do anything, even after being snapped several times. We finally decided that the old caps would be equal to Remington's if new, but not as hot or responsive as the CCI and no where close to the Hot German caps.
>
> The caps mentioned on this subject earlier were of the musket "hat" type from the 1830's, the caps we had were at least 10-15 years newer design, not having the flattened rim and smaller in dia., the Green River Hawken had a no.11 nipple that was a little smaller dia. than the original caps tested, but standard for our caps of the day.
>
> I was just impressed that they went off, and surprised that they would discharge a blank test round, but like Charley said this was tried in prefect conditions, not in the field or various climate changes that would be experienced. These caps have laid in storage all their life and probably in the best of possible conditions, as had the new percussion caps, so other than age the test was really not a test, other than the original caps would still fire.
>
> Later
> Buck Conner
>
> > On Tue, 08 June 1999, "larry pendleton" wrote:
> >
> > The thinking seems to be that the men of that time were just slow to take
> > to the new percussion system, and that may be true. It is also my
> > understanding that the caps of that time were not nearly as dependable as
> > what we have today. If anyone has any info as to whether they were are were
> > not as dependable as today's caps, please jump in here . Besides, it's my
> > contention that ye cap belongs on ye head. <G>
> > Pendleton
>
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 21:48:26 +0000
> From: Laura Rugel Glise <lglise@bellsouth.net>
> Subject: MtMan-List: Percussion caps
>
> 10:30 p.m. EST
>
> Gentlemen:
>
> I saw the discussion regarding percussion caps yesterday. I don't have
> all the firsthand knowledge that many of you possess, but I can find my
> way around the best reference library. My own. One of the books on my
> shelf is "The Treasury of the Gun" by Harold L. Peterson. After I saw
> your discussion, and knew very little about the subject I tried to learn
> more. This is what I found:
>
> Although it is impossible to be certain who invented the percussion cap,
> there were many claimants. The earliest patent was Prelat's in 1818,
> but he was not the inventor. In his book, Peterson discusses the
> possible fathers for the cap and the stories of their invention. They
> are as follows:
>
> Colonel Peter Hawker, a famous English sportsman, said he conceived the
> idea after trying an unsuccessful pill lock, and convinced a reluctant
> gunsmith to make a few guns on his plan.
>
> Joseph Egg, a noted London gunmaker, said he invented the cap and made
> the first one from a penny.
>
> James Purdey maintained that he made the very first percussion cap of
> brass from an old umbrella tag, and that Egg's only claim was making the
> first copper cap. Purdey said his inspiration was an inverted glass.
>
> The author, Peterson, says that an English artist, Joshua Shaw, stands
> out above the rest. Shaw believed that the loose powder used in 1814
> would never be fully satisfactory and he tried making a paste of the
> materials. He stored tiny amounts of his paste in little steel
> cylinders about 3/16 of an inch in diameter and 3/8 of an inch in
> length. One of these cylinders accidentally became fixed on the ivory
> tip of the artist's pencil lying on his desk. Another fortuitous
> event: the pencil was struck by a sharp blow. There was a small
> explosion and the pencil was shattered. According to Shaw, this was the
> birth of the percussion cap. He immediately recognized its
> possibilities and conceived the idea of placing such caps on nipples
> similar to those used on patch locks. In 1815 Shaw produced a pewter
> cap as an improvement on the first ones of steel and iron, and in 1816
> he switched to copper.
>
> Shaw emigrated to America, landing in Philidelphia in late 1817.
> Because of (John) Forsyth's basic patent on Fulminate locks, Forsyth
> averred that Shaw had not obtained an English patent on his caps, and
> that as an alien, Shaw could not obtain an American patent until he had
> lived in the U.S. for two years. Shaw waited five years (1822) before
> applying for a patent, and, by that time, there were several European
> patents on the device. There is no evidence, except for Shaw's own
> statements, to substantiate his claims, but he was instrumental in
> perfecting and popularizing the cap in America.
>
> Please excuse this long discussion in the event you already know all of
> the above . . . but if you didn't, I just thought you might like the
> information. You can't have too much information/
>
> Regards,
>
> Laura Glise
> Atlanta, Georgia
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 19:42:45 -0700 (PDT)
> From: zaslow <zaz@pacificnet.net>
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps
>
> Said my piece on this topic before and sounds like all that have responded
> are of the same opinion as me. Although there definitely were cap guns in
> the mountains (as they are documented), they were not the choice of the
> average mountaineer. I believe they were carried by the brigade leaders and
> a few that choose to carry them, but were not as plentiful as we see them today.
> >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: 9 Jun 1999 19:48:13 -0700
> From: <turtle@uswestmail.net>
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps
>
> You where lucky that any of them caps went off, of course I remember the original blunderbust that came into your store in Masonville, CO and we got to playing with it and took it out back, but a new flint in her and she discharged a load of stuff that had been in it's belly for who knows how long. The lady that brought it in told Ben Thompson that it had been in her care for 60 years when she sold it to you guys. Now thinking about it that was really dumb shooting out the charge, could have b
> So old precussion caps, old black powder can still work even after years of being stored in the barrel of a gun or resting on the nipple of one. All of us need to be careful about such things.
> I saw Buck's friend and store manager Ben Thompson put an old percussion cap on a bad nipple and the damn think went off turning a few fingers black and blue. Pretty serious for Ben, he only has one arm.
> Be careful when handling these items they are not toys - big boys.
> Turtle.
>
> > Out of (10) original caps only 6 went off, one kind of made a fizzzzzsss..... sound and the other three wouldn't do anything, even after being snapped several times. We finally decided that the old caps would be equal to Remington's if new, but not as hot or responsive as the CCI and no where close to the Hot German caps.
> >
> > The caps mentioned on this subject earlier were of the musket "hat" type from the 1830's, the caps we had were at least 10-15 years newer design, not having the flattened rim and smaller in dia., the Green River Hawken had a no.11 nipple that was a little smaller dia. than the original caps tested, but standard for our caps of the day.
> >
> > I was just impressed that they went off, and surprised that they would discharge a blank test round,............
>
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 10:18:39 -0400
> From: Michael Pierce <hawknest4@juno.com>
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion caps
>
> On Wed, 09 Jun 1999 21:48:26 +0000 Laura Rugel Glise
> <lglise@bellsouth.net> writes:
> >10:30 p.m. EST
>
> >Gentlemen:
>
> I KNOW---you use this term loosely---(GBG)---(BR)
>
> >I saw the discussion regarding percussion caps yesterday. I don't
> have
> >all the firsthand knowledge that many of you possess, but I can find my
> >way around the best reference library.
> >Laura Glise
>
> Laura Glise you present a good logical and well organized input and very
> well documented ----I hope this will add to your disertation on caps--its
> good to see someone put the documentation in a good flowing document--I
> will store it with my other important documentation that i sometimes use
> for reference------back in the early 60's I was deep into collecting cap
> boxes and still have a box full of them them hid out in the gun room
> - ---should have swaped them off but they dont eat anything or require any
> maintainance---always wanted to make a display out of them in a year date
> secquence that they were made so that I had a track of dateing them for
> time and date produced ---IE the earliest to the latest---I have given
> several of my duplicates away to people who had cased sets that were
> missing the cap boxes---when you look at the boxes you will find that a
> lot of early ones are made of red brass and the earliest are made of what
> i think is zink but am not sure I know it is not silver or german silver
> or tin (someone out there might enumerate on this)--. those that i have
> that can be dated in the early 1840's --50's or prior seem to be made
> from the red brass then--- in the late 1850's they went to a steel or tin
> being used---with some of the boxes made of paper---Yet I have a single
> paper box that seems to date back into the 1840's ---I always felt that
> it was a refill for a cased set --as for as brands or makers there seems
> to only be about 6 or 8 brands prior to 1880 with about 3 primary
> makers---BTW those prior to 1860 seem to be primarily foreign made I
> only have a few that were made in the us and those were made in the
> 1850-1860 time span by my dateing.
>
> I have a purdy marked cap box and a Egg marked box but have always felt
> that they dated in the 1840 plus dates---have several of the civil war
> musket cap boxes only one that is the large musket cap without the wings
> on the caps---I feel that it was produced prior to the cival war---had a
> discussion with COL. E Burton Saunders in the late 50's about caps when I
> was helping him clean his guns---this was when i was a kid and needed
> extra money so i worked on saturdays cleaning his guns in his house
> before he died and his guns were put into a his museum in Berryville
> Arkansas--the point that has stuck with me for so many years was that the
> try wing was made primarily during the civil war and was easier to
> produce than the cylindercal ones---the reason for the try wing was ease
> and time of forming and easier to cut out the base material and the
> finished caps were not trimmed back and reformed a second time to get the
> full cylinders---without the wings---I hope you guys understand what i am
> saying here---Remember this explination was Hear-say and i cannot
> document this except from common sence and basic logic---
>
> I am highly inclined to thank as many of the guys in the AMM that the Cap
> gun was not a common thing in the mountains prior to 1840---But yes there
> was a few ---I personally believe that there were more cap-pistols than
> rifles being used (Here is a good Point of discussion) as Dale Black
> and Pappy Horn and the bunch always said " If the big maker had wanted us
> to use caps on our fire sticks in the mountains then he would have filled
> all the creeks with them and not flint or chert rocks"
>
> again you did a good job on your presentation on the cap thing---good
As far as moose and their roaming grounds, Wyoming has always had moose and Colorado has brought moose back in the northern counties within the last 15-20 years. I lived west of Loveland Colorado 25 years ago and found a shed moose horn, called the local college CSU and they came out to the farm and searched the area and found the other side. At that time this was the furtherest southern known moose sighting recorded in this century for Colorado. The last time I checked it was still true and marked as Masonville, CO being the lowest reported sighting of Wyoming type of moose.
As you have mentioned it is very expensive, but very long lasting for foot wear and heavy for clothing, had a long hunter coat that flat wore you out packing it around. When availble, moose hide seems to always be from Canada, brained tanned and darkly smoked, not much choice for color. Probably the trader that was dealing had gotten all of it from one source. I have several items made from moose and really like the weight in smaller items.
Later
Buck Conner
Colorado Territory
> On Tue, 15 June 1999, Angela Gottfred wrote:
> In the Canadian fur trade (1774-1821), moose leather was very popular for
> moccasins, along with bison and elk. Perhaps you haven't found much about
> moose below the 49th parallel because, according to my field guide, moose
> are found only in the American Rockies and just south of the Great Lakes. In
> Canada, you can find moose just about everywhere but southeastern Alberta,
> which is a semi-desert. In fact, there was a young moose running loose in
> the Calgary suburbs just this morning...he'd taken a wrong turn, I guess.
>
> Your humble & obedient servant,
> Angela Gottfred
> agottfre@telusplanet.net
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
As Joe has stated moose weren't native to Wyoming, I read some where that Teddy Roosvelt and his different programs helped many of the animals, like the moose in relocations. Will have to check that for the dates.
Buck Conner
> On Tue, 15 June 1999, Joe Brandl wrote:
>
> I do not believe there were many moose below Northern Montana prior to
> 1870's. There are few recording of seeing moose in any journals. Most moose
> leather came from Canada or the Minn area. Wyoming did not always have
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A MightyCool Quote A Day for June 20, 1999]]
Date: 20 Jun 1999 16:16:35 -0700
Dennis,
A friend of mind, Jerry Spence, (may have heard of him), lawyer from Jackson Hole, WYO. He has lived his whole life by another one of John Wayne's quotes. "Mess with me or mine and I'll knock your dick in the dirt".
He's made a pretty good living handling his practice with these words; Ruby Ridge, and several dozen cases against big corps. and Uncle Sam to name a few, all wins for the common man.
Buck
______________________
On Sun, 20 June 1999, Dennis Miles wrote:
Good Words to live by....
Dennis
"I've always followed my father's advice: he told me, first to always
keep my word and, second, to never insult anybody unintentionally. If I insult you, you can be goddamn sure I intend to. And, third, he told me not to go around looking for trouble."
- John Wayne
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A MightyCool Quote [OFF TOPIC]
Date: 21 Jun 1999 09:58:42 -0700
Pendleton,
I won't be able to setup camp, company I work for is in a hostile takeover with/between two other companies. Our vacations in my work group have been canceled for 5-6 weeks or longer (have to have our back-logs cleaned up per the PUC). This blew me out of the AMM Nationals in WYO this year and possiblity the College doings.
Had to work last weekend and am going to meet Lanney Ratcliff for a few minutes as he passes through town on his way to the Nationals.
Like the old saying "life can be a dog then you marry one" change that to "work for one". Too damn many years with them to tell them where to put their job, and to close to retire from them. Heck of a spot to be in.
If I can make it for a day will try and look you up at the college.
Later
Buck Conner
dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile
http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/
> On Sun, 20 June 1999, "larry pendleton" wrote:
> Hey Guys,
> It's kinda scary thing, but I agree with both of you. I'M IN ! ! ! ! ! I'f'n ya'll ain't a feerd of a Texican siding up with ye.
>
> Buck are you gonna be at the College Rendezvous ?
>
> Pendleton
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A MightyCool Quote A Day for June 20, 1999]]
Date: 21 Jun 1999 10:37:32 -0700
Hey, I met Mr. Spence at Buck's store in CO., he is alright for his line of work, really a layed back individual. I bet he could put you in the dirt with no problem, best part he's for us - the worker.
Turtle.
On Sun, 20 June 1999, Dennis Miles wrote:
BUCK WROTE:
"Mess with me or mine and I'll knock your dick in the dirt". John Wayne quote.
That is a fine quote, Buck.. And is true sentiment, and words to live by, I believe, among the folks we tend to run with.
Dennis
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Subject: MtMan-List: The Second Amendment-Join the fight
Date: 21 Jun 1999 18:20:32 -0700
It's time to stand and be counted, if you don't want more gun laws, register or loose what we got.
We all have seen the numerous articles from a large group of
associations, organizations and groups crying about the Second
Amendment, for and against.
When asking a muzzle loaders, historians, or trekkers, etc., which ever group you belong to, "what do you belong to" most will probably say a local club, a trekking group or the National Muzzle Loading Association. Strange how in many of these surveys, only a few mention the groups that actually do lobby and fight for the Second Amendment, like the National Rifle Association (membership dues), the Gun Owner's of America (free internet service that puts the word out with alerts per state).
We as gun owners, gun users, gun collectors, hunters, sportsman, etc., you need to consider what's important and who is fighting for your/our's rights at home and in Washington D.C. .
More now than ever before is the need to join up, recruit and let your voice be heard about issues dealing with any of the Amendments. Don't let these Articles of Freedom slip through our fingers that our forefather's fought and died for. Stand and be counted, now is the time.
Now we got some attention getters with Charlton Heston, Robert Stack and several others from Hollywood (in the past most of these mammy pammy acters were against guns), the NRA has an excellent staff of advisors like Wayne LaPierre and a list of others as long as your arm.
________________________
National Rifle Association
11250 Waples Mill Road
Fairfax, Va 22030-9400
Gun Owners of America
http://www.gunowners.org
good information, form letters, senate and house member address and e-mails. Weekly e-mails of problems in the state, local and government services.
________________________
This is no baloney sales pitch, your help is needed - don't kiss it off like many of you have in the past.
Buck Conner
NRA Life Member
Gun Owners of America
Colorado Gun Owners Association
American Mountain Men Association
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Second Amendment-UPDATE
Date: 22 Jun 1999 05:14:23 -0700
> On Mon, 21 June 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> It's time to stand and be counted, if you don't want more gun laws, register or loose what we got.
>
> We all have seen the numerous articles from a large group of
> associations, organizations and groups crying about the Second
> Amendment, for and against.
>
> When asking a muzzle loaders, historians, or trekkers, etc., which ever group you belong to, "what do you belong to" most will probably say a local club, a trekking group or the National Muzzle Loading Association. Strange how in many of these surveys, only a few mention the groups that actually do lobby and fight for the Second Amendment, like the National Rifle Association (membership dues), the Gun Owner's of America (free internet service that puts the word out with alerts per state).
>
> We as gun owners, gun users, gun collectors, hunters, sportsman, etc., you need to consider what's important and who is fighting for your/our's rights at home and in Washington D.C. .
>
> More now than ever before is the need to join up, recruit and let your voice be heard about issues dealing with any of the Amendments. Don't let these Articles of Freedom slip through our fingers that our forefather's fought and died for. Stand and be counted, now is the time.
>
> Now we got some attention getters with Charlton Heston, Robert Stack and several others from Hollywood (in the past most of these mammy pammy acters were against guns), the NRA has an excellent staff of advisors like Wayne LaPierre and a list of others as long as your arm.
> ________________________
> National Rifle Association
> 11250 Waples Mill Road
> Fairfax, Va 22030-9400
>
> Gun Owners of America
> http://www.gunowners.org
> good information, form letters, senate and house member address and e-mails. Weekly e-mails of problems in the state, local and government services.
> ________________________
> This is no baloney sales pitch, your help is needed - don't kiss it off like many of you have in the past.
>
> Buck Conner
> NRA Life Member
> Gun Owners of America
> Colorado Gun Owners Association
> American Mountain Men Association
>
AN EXAMPLE OF THE GUN OWNERS OF AMERICA MAILINGS.
Gun Owners Win Major House Battle
--But some Republicans still plugging for gun control
Gun Owners of America E-Mail/FAX Alert
8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA 22151
Phone: 703-321-8585 / FAX: 703-321-8408
http://www.gunowners.org
"I am disappointed . . . [with] the vast majority of Democrats [who]
voted against a fair and open process, voted against the Juvenile
Justice bill and voted against common-sense [sic] gun control
legislation." -- House Speaker Denny Hastert, June 21, 1999
(Monday, June 21, 1999) -- House Speaker Denny Hastert is right.
The Democrats can be "thanked" for killing the anti-gun juvenile
justice bill.
Of course, Democrats were just being true to their own convictions.
They refused to vote for a bill that contained even some pro-gun
provisions, no matter how minor those provisions were. The bill
contained an amendment by Rep. Hunter (CA) to allow D.C. residents
to keep firearms in their homes; an amendment by Rep. Sessions (TX)
to let people reclaim their pawned guns without a background check
(in most cases); and an amendment by Rep. Cunningham (CA) granting
concealed carry reciprocity to off-duty and retired cops.
But the anti-gun crime bill (H.R. 2122) contained many far-reaching
gun control provisions, as well:
* It would have banned private sales of firearms at gun shows
unless the buyer submitted to a background registration check;
* The bill allowed for unlimited BATF ability to regulate and
conduct harassing inspections of gun shows-- to the point where gun
shows could be regulated out of existence;
* H.R. 2122 would have imposed mandatory "lock up your safety"
devices on all guns sold; and
* It would have banned imports of self-defense magazines that
hold more than 10 rounds.
Truly, the 280-147 vote on Friday was a victory for gun owners. But
it was a hollow one at that. Consider the statement from The
Washington Post on Sunday: "The House debate focused not on whether
gun control is necessary, but on how much gun control is necessary."
During last week's debate, it became very evident that the debate
focus has shifted, as several ugly trends emerged from the sparring
over H.R. 2122:
* Many "pro-gun" legislators and political insiders supported
both gun control amendments and final passage of the anti-gun bill.
For example, the Associated Press reported on Saturday that,
"Republican leaders and the NRA launched a furious last-minute
lobbying effort to pass the bill with the Dingell [Gun Control
'Lite'] amendment attached."
* The Republican leadership showed that it is clearly committed
to passing "some gun control." Like the flawed Ulysses hero of
Homer's epic tale, the Republican leadership is trying to enjoy the
music of the Sirens without falling prey to its curse. Likewise,
Republicans want gun control, but without offending their
conservative supporters:
"House Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., told leaders in a private
meeting early Friday that passing the bill would give the GOP a
better chance at [enacting] some gun control, but not so much as to
turn off conservative campaign donors next year." -- Associated
Press, June 19, 1999
* Gun control is hardly dead in the House and Senate, and is most
likely to come up again. The Washington Post confirmed this point
yesterday:
"Democrats ... are vowing to raise the [gun control] issue
relentlessly over the coming months."
Please Stay Tuned. The battle is hardly over. Keep watching your
fax machines and email boxes as GOA will continue to alert activists
of upcoming fights. Later this week, GOA will provide a full
analysis of each firearms related amendment that was voted on last
week and will post complete voting records relating to all of these
provisions.
Final e-mail only note: As you can imagine, the GOA e-mail boxes
have been swamped throughout the last few months. Some persons have
complained that we haven't been answering their mail-- interpreting
unavoidable delays as silence on our part. We remain committed to
allowing comment mail, and to answering it whenever a response is
needed-- even to the point of hiring extra people. But new employees
must be trained (perversely *adding* to the workload rather than
easing it for the moment), and the daily flow continues to increase.
We are asking for your patience and understanding. We are also
specifically requesting that you refrain from e-mailing us to verify
quotes or rumors, do web research on your behalf, track down
sections of gun laws, or other time-consuming chores not directly
related to current legislation. Normally, we're more than happy to
oblige. But this is not a normal time.
**************
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
You asking about Buck's store, it no longer is in business, but was a kick when in operation, a period building with the fake square front like seen in the old movies, horse corrals with live stock, blacksmith area, hawk targets plus a local buckskinner group there most weekends.
The store was called "Buckhorn Rendevzous", located outside of Loveland CO, probably one of the best muzzleloading, mountainman stores in the west. They carried everything from traps, furs, clothing to quality muzzleloaders to customs ones. The manager did custom bead work - held classes too, had a blacksmith on weekends, sponsored a local club with monthly shoots, furnished a 300 acre site for shooting and camping. Started and sponsored the Colorado Small Bore Championships, as well as sponsoring a co-ed Boy Scout Exployer group (mountainman style).
This was the "in place" for mountainmen to be from the mid 1980's until the early 1990's, Buck's regular work had moved 75 miles away - after driving a 150 miles round trip a day for 5 years, then working in the store at night, he flat wore out. He sold the store inventory, furnishings and moved down to Green Mountain (near Denver in the foothills), now the home of his mail order business - Clark & Sons Mercantile.
The list of and things going on was really something, people just kept coming in and adding to the surroundings, sad to see it close. Many that enjoyed this experience have tried to talk Buck into doing it again, and knowing him I think in a few years when he's retired he will do it again, bigger and better than before.
Thanks for asking, brought back good memories.
Turtle
PS
Buck won't like this I'm sure, but have had several ask about the Buckhorn store, so I'll try and answer everyone at once with the hist_list.
_______________________________
> On Mon, 21 June 1999, "Carpenter, Ken" wrote:
>
> Hey Turtle:
> Saw your reference to "Buck's store" on the Mt Man list. Is that a friend's
> store, or and actual store named Buck's store. I am asking because we are
> going to Colorado this Saturday and I want to stop at every interesting
> place there is. Is this some place that a history/Mt Man/back country/back
> road buff may enjoy. I like to find the smallest roads and towns and stop
> and take in the local color.
>
> Carp
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Second Amendment-UPDATE
Date: 22 Jun 1999 08:47:56 -0700
Hey Buck,
Checked out the "Gun Owner's" site, good stuff - well done and easy to use.
I'm signed up and filled out the information on several of the form letters and sent them, already NRA.
Thanks
Turtle
> On Tue, 22 June 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 21 June 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote:
> >
> > It's time to stand and be counted, if you don't want more gun laws, register or loose what we got.
> >
> > We all have seen the numerous articles from a large group of
> > associations, organizations and groups crying about the Second
> > Amendment, for and against.
> >
> > When asking a muzzle loaders, historians, or trekkers, etc., which ever group you belong to, "what do you belong to" most will probably say a local club, a trekking group or the National Muzzle Loading Association. Strange how in many of these surveys, only a few mention the groups that actually do lobby and fight for the Second Amendment, like the National Rifle Association (membership dues), the Gun Owner's of America (free internet service that puts the word out with alerts per state).
> >
> > We as gun owners, gun users, gun collectors, hunters, sportsman, etc., you need to consider what's important and who is fighting for your/our's rights at home and in Washington D.C. .
> >
> > More now than ever before is the need to join up, recruit and let your voice be heard about issues dealing with any of the Amendments. Don't let these Articles of Freedom slip through our fingers that our forefather's fought and died for. Stand and be counted, now is the time.
> >
> > Now we got some attention getters with Charlton Heston, Robert Stack and several others from Hollywood (in the past most of these mammy pammy acters were against guns), the NRA has an excellent staff of advisors like Wayne LaPierre and a list of others as long as your arm.
> > ________________________
> > National Rifle Association
> > 11250 Waples Mill Road
> > Fairfax, Va 22030-9400
> >
> > Gun Owners of America
> > http://www.gunowners.org
> > good information, form letters, senate and house member address and e-mails. Weekly e-mails of problems in the state, local and government services.
> > ________________________
> > This is no baloney sales pitch, your help is needed - don't kiss it off like many of you have in the past.
> >
> > Buck Conner
> > NRA Life Member
> > Gun Owners of America
> > Colorado Gun Owners Association
> > American Mountain Men Association
> >
> AN EXAMPLE OF THE GUN OWNERS OF AMERICA MAILINGS.
>
> Gun Owners Win Major House Battle
> --But some Republicans still plugging for gun control
>
> Gun Owners of America E-Mail/FAX Alert
> 8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA 22151
> Phone: 703-321-8585 / FAX: 703-321-8408
> http://www.gunowners.org
>
>
> "I am disappointed . . . [with] the vast majority of Democrats [who]
> voted against a fair and open process, voted against the Juvenile
> Justice bill and voted against common-sense [sic] gun control
> legislation." -- House Speaker Denny Hastert, June 21, 1999
>
> (Monday, June 21, 1999) -- House Speaker Denny Hastert is right.
> The Democrats can be "thanked" for killing the anti-gun juvenile
> justice bill.
>
> Of course, Democrats were just being true to their own convictions.
> They refused to vote for a bill that contained even some pro-gun
> provisions, no matter how minor those provisions were. The bill
> contained an amendment by Rep. Hunter (CA) to allow D.C. residents
> to keep firearms in their homes; an amendment by Rep. Sessions (TX)
> to let people reclaim their pawned guns without a background check
> (in most cases); and an amendment by Rep. Cunningham (CA) granting
> concealed carry reciprocity to off-duty and retired cops.
>
> But the anti-gun crime bill (H.R. 2122) contained many far-reaching
> gun control provisions, as well:
>
> * It would have banned private sales of firearms at gun shows
> unless the buyer submitted to a background registration check;
>
> * The bill allowed for unlimited BATF ability to regulate and
> conduct harassing inspections of gun shows-- to the point where gun
> shows could be regulated out of existence;
>
> * H.R. 2122 would have imposed mandatory "lock up your safety"
> devices on all guns sold; and
>
> * It would have banned imports of self-defense magazines that
> hold more than 10 rounds.
>
> Truly, the 280-147 vote on Friday was a victory for gun owners. But
> it was a hollow one at that. Consider the statement from The
> Washington Post on Sunday: "The House debate focused not on whether
> gun control is necessary, but on how much gun control is necessary."
> During last week's debate, it became very evident that the debate
> focus has shifted, as several ugly trends emerged from the sparring
> over H.R. 2122:
>
> * Many "pro-gun" legislators and political insiders supported
> both gun control amendments and final passage of the anti-gun bill.
> For example, the Associated Press reported on Saturday that,
>
> "Republican leaders and the NRA launched a furious last-minute
> lobbying effort to pass the bill with the Dingell [Gun Control
> 'Lite'] amendment attached."
>
> * The Republican leadership showed that it is clearly committed
> to passing "some gun control." Like the flawed Ulysses hero of
> Homer's epic tale, the Republican leadership is trying to enjoy the
> music of the Sirens without falling prey to its curse. Likewise,
> Republicans want gun control, but without offending their
> conservative supporters:
>
> "House Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., told leaders in a private
> meeting early Friday that passing the bill would give the GOP a
> better chance at [enacting] some gun control, but not so much as to
> turn off conservative campaign donors next year." -- Associated
> Press, June 19, 1999
>
> * Gun control is hardly dead in the House and Senate, and is most
> likely to come up again. The Washington Post confirmed this point
> yesterday:
>
> "Democrats ... are vowing to raise the [gun control] issue
> relentlessly over the coming months."
>
>
> Please Stay Tuned. The battle is hardly over. Keep watching your
> fax machines and email boxes as GOA will continue to alert activists
> of upcoming fights. Later this week, GOA will provide a full
> analysis of each firearms related amendment that was voted on last
> week and will post complete voting records relating to all of these
> provisions.
>
> Final e-mail only note: As you can imagine, the GOA e-mail boxes
> have been swamped throughout the last few months. Some persons have
> complained that we haven't been answering their mail-- interpreting
> unavoidable delays as silence on our part. We remain committed to
> allowing comment mail, and to answering it whenever a response is
> needed-- even to the point of hiring extra people. But new employees
> must be trained (perversely *adding* to the workload rather than
> easing it for the moment), and the daily flow continues to increase.
> We are asking for your patience and understanding. We are also
> specifically requesting that you refrain from e-mailing us to verify
> quotes or rumors, do web research on your behalf, track down
> sections of gun laws, or other time-consuming chores not directly
> related to current legislation. Normally, we're more than happy to
> oblige. But this is not a normal time.
>
> **************
>
>
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Well friends, I think Lee "Turtle" Boyer - now in PA (a former member of the club he mentioned) has said it all about this place, when living in Colorado back then it was the place to be, many of us members (and not members) would never take the take the smoke poles or skins out of the truck, because we knew we would go there after work on the way home, or be there on the weekends - our wives would just call Buck when we were needed. They figured it was better than in the bar.
Powderhawk
Iowa Territory
> On Tue, 22 June 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> Ken,
> You asking about Buck's store, it no longer is in business, but was a kick when in operation, a period building with the fake square front like seen in the old movies, horse corrals with live stock, blacksmith area, hawk targets plus a local buckskinner group there most weekends.
>
> The store was called "Buckhorn Rendevzous", located outside of Loveland CO, probably one of the best muzzleloading, mountainman stores in the west. They carried everything from traps, furs, clothing to quality muzzleloaders to customs ones. The manager did custom bead work - held classes too, had a blacksmith on weekends, sponsored a local club with monthly shoots, furnished a 300 acre site for shooting and camping. Started and sponsored the Colorado Small Bore Championships, as well as sponsoring a co-ed Boy Scout Exployer group (mountainman style).
>
> This was the "in place" for mountainmen to be from the mid 1980's until the early 1990's, Buck's regular work had moved 75 miles away - after driving a 150 miles round trip a day for 5 years, then working in the store at night, he flat wore out. He sold the store inventory, furnishings and moved down to Green Mountain (near Denver in the foothills), now the home of his mail order business - Clark & Sons Mercantile.
>
> The list of and things going on was really something, people just kept coming in and adding to the surroundings, sad to see it close. Many that enjoyed this experience have tried to talk Buck into doing it again, and knowing him I think in a few years when he's retired he will do it again, bigger and better than before.
>
> Thanks for asking, brought back good memories.
>
> Turtle
>
> PS
> Buck won't like this I'm sure, but have had several ask about the Buckhorn store, so I'll try and answer everyone at once with the hist_list.
> _______________________________
>
> > On Mon, 21 June 1999, "Carpenter, Ken" wrote:
> >
> > Hey Turtle:
> > Saw your reference to "Buck's store" on the Mt Man list. Is that a friend's
> > store, or and actual store named Buck's store. I am asking because we are
> > going to Colorado this Saturday and I want to stop at every interesting
> > place there is. Is this some place that a history/Mt Man/back country/back
> > road buff may enjoy. I like to find the smallest roads and towns and stop
> > and take in the local color.
> >
> > Carp
>
>
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
That's the past boys; we where there, we had fun and we helped a lot of new folks get started in muzzle loading the right way - with sound advice and shooting range instruction.
Some day we'll do it again, and I won't have to drive all those miles.
Later
YF&B
Buck
> > PS
> > Buck won't like this I'm sure, but have had several ask about the Buckhorn store, so I'll try and answer everyone at once with the hist_list.
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
That's the past boys; we where there, we had fun and we helped a lot of new folks get started in muzzle loading the right way - with sound advice and shooting range instruction.
Some day we'll do it again, and I won't have to drive all those miles.
Later
YF&B
Buck
> > PS
> > Buck won't like this I'm sure, but have had several ask about the Buckhorn store, so I'll try and answer everyone at once with the hist_list.
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: It's a long story . . . . on topic
Date: 23 Jun 1999 10:59:48 -0700
Lanney,
When you see Laura at the Nationals, inform her that one Mr. Crosby Brown of Washington, Missouri (retired historian for that state), has found new information that possibly Lewis was murdered by one of his creditors staying in the tavern that night.
Seems the pistol Lewis had was a smaller caliber than the bullet found in his head along with several other items that did not make it a clear case of suicide. Interesting story that he is in the process of putting the documentation together on, will change a little of our history if proven correct.
Later
YF&B
Buck
> "There were some things Sarah had not told him. She had not mentioned
> that the famous explorer, Merriwether Lewis, had committed suicide. It
> came as a great shock to Russell, but as the years passed, and the early
> morning smell of his Shining Mountains became a distant memory, he
> understood Lewis' sadness that he and Clark had rendered the Unknown
> into the Familiar. He remembered Sarah saying that it was from the
> campfires of trappers that cities would rise. And they did. It was a
> new frontier opened by Time. The way West was no longer known as
> Sublette's cut-off or Sublette's trace, but the Oregon Trail. It had
> been Captain Stewart, going back to St. Louis, that had blazed the
> trail.
> Laura Glise
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No not the same, this information has been gathered by Mr. Brown over a period of years of research that he keeps working on as time allows. He told me that in due time this information would be available in book form (had to clear up some areas that he felt were weak).
He was the state historian for many years, his father started the research back in the 1950's or early 60's !!
Should be interesting when available.
Later
Buck
> On Fri, 25 June 1999, JON MARINETTI wrote:
> Buck:
>
> Could ye be referring to this?
>
> HISTORY CHANNEL program
> [60 minute documentary]
>
> Who Killed Meriwether Lewis?
> Despite Thomas Jefferson's pronouncement of suicide, doubts remain as to the cause of the explorer's death.
>
> Wednesday, June 23, 1999 - 8:00 PM
> Thursday, June 24, 1999 - 12:00 AM
> Thursday, June 24, 1999 - 4:00 AM
> (all days-times above were for Michigan)
>
> [Unfortunately, this writer missed the program - hope to catch it next
> time - did anyone in the group see it?].
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
No, he said Crosby Brown (historian from Missouri) is the way I read it. Have talked to Mr. Brown and what he has found in the last 25 years of research will change history, when his book is published.
Turtle.
>
> Could ye be referring to this?
>
> HISTORY CHANNEL program
> [60 minute documentary]
>
> Who Killed Meriwether Lewis?
> Despite Thomas Jefferson's pronouncement of suicide, doubts remain as to
> the cause of the explorer's death.
>
> Wednesday, June 23, 1999 - 8:00 PM
> Thursday, June 24, 1999 - 12:00 AM
> Thursday, June 24, 1999 - 4:00 AM
> (all days-times above were for Michigan)
>
> [Unfortunately, this writer missed the program - hope to catch it next
> time - did anyone in the group see it?].
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