Subject: MtMan-List: Non-Electric catalog for history buffs
Date: 02 May 1999 10:51:05 -0700
Brothers & Sisters,
For an interesting web site see http://www.Lehmans.com
These are the Amish folks, the ones that have done without modern suppliers of electric, phone and water departments while the rest of the world got on the programs. Now many are going to them to relearn the old ways of survival without the modern ways. I was talking to Doyle Yoder from this firm, Lehman's, just an hour from Double Edge Forge (Dennis Miles - that is on this list), Doyle tells me they're running 5-7 weeks behind do to the Y2K thing.
Apparently some folks are starting to get prepared just in case there are shortages, thus making the "common people" work longer hours to supply the demand.
The reason I even mention this firm is for the reenacter, historical buff or trekker looking for special needs in the way of home food preparation, home and farm tools, horse equipment like carts to wagons and much more, many items that have been used since these people came to the New World in the mid to late 1700's.
Their catalog is available (150 plus pages) good pictures and descriptions of each item for $3.00. You can call 330-857-5757, fax 303-857-5785 or e-mail to Getleham's@aol.com
For the trader or dealer I found just the ticket in a correct wood wheelbarrow based on an authentic pattern from the early 1800's according to the ad. I called and talked to a gentlemen that told me he was sure the wheelbarrow has been around for a long period of time in history, theirs has a spoked wooden wheel with removal side boards. He gave me the name and number of a museum that had several of this pattern wheelbarrow. I called and talked to a lady that was only able to read me the information on the display, but was going to have another person send me the documentation they had about the wheelbarrows. According to the display these were made before 1800, I will let you know what the documentation says when received.
If correct, here's what will save your back and some trips back and forth when setting up camp, collecting firewood, water, etc., plus will make a nice way to display some of your goods with one side board removed and a period blanket drapped over the wheelbarrow. Hell I sold myself and ordered one, got the large one at $249.00 postage paid, have a smaller one at $159.00 postage paid. Get the catalog and give it some thought.
Buck Conner
dba/ Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc.
http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/
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Earlier this year we talked about airguns in answering a question by a member of this list, since then I have went to the library, plus made a few phone calls and will now share with you my findings on this subject. Seems this weapon is earlier than any of us had suggested.
The use of compressed air to propel a projectile is an old concept dating back to 250 BC, when a gentleman by the name of Ktesbias II of Egypt drew plans and wrote of a weapon that would operate on mere air pressure. Vague references to Ancient Greeks using a source of compressed air to throw rocks at their enemies or in the Renaissance Period - inventor Leonardo DaVinci having drawn plans for air powered weapons. Some historians have claimed that Guter of Nuremberg in 1430 designed a working model of an air rifle, (but never had it profectived). While others claim that Hans Lobsigner in 1560 produced a modified version of the Nuremberg hand held rifle that worked flawlessly and produced numbers of them in the late 1500Æs. France, Holland, Italy and several other small countries were producing airguns by the early 1600Æs and supplying arms for personal protection.
The oldest existing airgun known is in the Royal Danish Arsenal in Copenhagen and dates from around 1580.
Otto Von Guerick (1602-1686) established the principle of the vacuum with the Madgeburg spheres, designed and building an air rifle using this surge principle. His devise according to an article written by J.T.Haynes was actually a cannon arrangement that used a detachable air reservoir connected to the cannon tube. These wind chambers as they were called generated considerable force, capable of propelling a four pound lead ball 500 yards, and able to penetrate a three inch thick oak board.
The airgun history actually began in the late 16th and early 17th centuries, these odd arms then equaled the power of the contemporary big-game and waterfowl weapon or military firearm. Many thought that the Lewis and Clark air rifle was an unusual item, when the real truth of the matter is this type of weapon had been around for 400 years before the exploration of the Northwest in 1804. Airguns were considered weapons of war, an early version would be the blow gun powered by oneÆs own breath, and many disagree on when this early weapon came into being. In Europe many leaders would have anyone using a crossbow or airgun put to death, they didnÆt like the idea of a weapon being silent, in war or peace time.
The first largest produced airgun was of the bellows chamber design, so named as implies, a spring loaded bellows was used for power with an expanding ratchet device housed in the butt stock that was cranked or keyed to rewind the spring. All bellows type guns were smooth bores according to James W. Harrom (Beeman Precision) and many shot tufted large diameter darts up to 50 caliber. They were all breech loading in design with the convential barrel opening at the breech and tilting downward for loading. Most of the bellows guns were of the long gun configuration, very few produced as pistols, most were very elaborate in design, hardware and finishes. The bellow gun production was short lived in the 1500Æs and mainly used as a target weapon, but resumed popularity in the mid to late 1700Æs, 200 years later that has puzzled historians world wide. According to Mr. Harrom most bellows guns date from 1740 to 1790 and seem to come from a small area bounded by Munich, Prague and Vienna. the bellows airgun had disappeared by the late 1800Æs, yet a few appear to have been made as late as the 1870Æs.
Another design that appeared on the scene around 1600 was the spring piston gun, with several variations of springs used in their operation. From the zigzag shape to the helical coil spring (much like what is used today in modern spring piston airguns), again a ratchet device is used to pump or crank the spring into a compressed position when loaded, then released by a trigger sear or unlatching mechanism. By the first part of the 19th century the spring piston gun had established itÆs elf through out Europe as an indoor target weapon. By the mid 1800Æs this airgun had found itÆs way to the New World in the indoor shooting galleries becoming very popular as a great past-time sport. Usually found in .25 to .30 caliber, smooth bores intended to shoot darts. As time and weapons improved they were placed into a number of classes for competition, from small caliber - smooth bore to the larger caliber - rifled and so on. There were manufactures of weapons with names we all remember like Quackenbush, Daisy, Atlas, Markham/King and many others, some have survived, others are history.
The pump pneumatic gun has been worked on by inventors since the early 1600Æs, with a number of mechanism designs that were so involved that the system developed slowly when compared to the other systems mentioned. The size ranged from .30 to .68 caliber bores - smooth and rifled, meaning that a large volume of compressed air was needed in a large reservoir to produce pressures from a few hundred pounds per square inch to several thousand pounds per square inch. Not only deadly at the muzzle but also at the reservoir area. This much pressure would fire a .40 caliber lead ball, 40 times without resupplying the reservoir and equal a 35 grains of FFG black powder per shot, able to penetrate 2 1/2" into a hardpine board. This was duplicated a few years ago with one of these early air rifles and found to produce each shot with 750 PSI, thatÆs impressive, no wonder the L&C members wanted to have one of these along to show the Natives their "Spirit Gun".
There are a number of other manufacturers from other parts of the world that have had success with the airgun, for example an Austrian firm using a design by Bartolemeno Girandoni in 1779 made weapons that ranged from .40 to .52 caliber in bore and capable of firing 15 to 20 rounds within a minute by a gravity feed magazine. "When you figure that a group of armed men, 500 in number could fire approximately 100,000 rounds per hour, meaning they would have 5 times the firepower of many troops with flintlocks muskets, at 100 yards this is amazing," says author J.T.Haynes.
Now you can see why the airgun was condemned by Napoleon and other leaders being targeted by the Austrian Army in the late 1700Æs, even the Church of Rome condemned the Austrian rifle. "Poachers, assassins and other undesirables were portrayed", Mr. Haynes says, "as the likely users of these weapons, tools of the Devil."
For power of these guns, Louis VII Landgrave of Hesse (1691-1768) used a big bore air rifle to kill 500 lb. stag elk at ranges of 150 to 160 paces in 1746-1748. On our continent the journals of Lewis and Clark expedition (1804-1806) show their big bore pneumatic rifle, made in Philadelphia by Jacob Kunz and Issaih Lukens, capable of 40 full power shots at 900 PSI with a 1,000 pump strokes for raised pressure. This .31 caliber rifle had a 34" octagon barrel of brass with 17 groove rifling and needed no patching as the ball to barrel rifling was so close with the shallow rifling, making a snug fit. They used it to show the Indians of their power in taking small game up to deer in size, this had to astonish the onlookers. As late as the 1890Æs we have seen in this country pneumatic weapons disguised as walking sticks and canes ranging from .40-.50 in caliber with 500-750 FPS velocities capable of killing a man at 40-50 yards.
This information came from many resources:
J.T.Haynes, "Airguns Throughout History",
C.D.Hamilton, "Silent Killers",
James W. Harrom, "History of Air Rifles",
Permission from "Beeman Precision Airgun Guide".
Hope this answers any questions on how old airguns are, had heard much of this information years ago, but had forgotten it.
Thanks
Buck Conner
Colorado Territory
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Non-Electric catalog for history buffs - a little
Date: 02 May 1999 20:22:31 -0700
Hey John,
Back in the early 1960's I wired up fans inside stove pipes that ran up the shafts of the wind mills of their "Plain & Fancy" eating places outside of Lancaster and York PA. The idea was to blow the smell of fresh baked pies all over the valley, making people hungry and coming to spend their money.
Buck
> the Amish have a web sight?? What Next, an Amish telephone directory?? :-]
> Have a great day! Long John
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Non-Electric catalog for history buffs - a littleoff
Date: 02 May 1999 23:26:09 -0400
buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> Hey John,
>
> Back in the early 1960's I wired up fans inside stove pipes that ran up the shafts of the wind mills of their "Plain & Fancy" eating places outside of Lancaster and York PA. The idea was to blow the smell of fresh baked pies all over the valley, making people hungry and coming to spend their money.
Did it work?
Fred
--
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Non-Electric catalog for history buffs - a littleoff
Date: 03 May 1999 05:40:49 -0700
You bet it worked, we were young and dumb and had traded the labor for meals, should have went on a percentage of additional business.
Buck
____________
On Sun, 02 May 1999, "Fred A. Miller" wrote:
>
> buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote:
> >
> > Hey John,
> >
> > Back in the early 1960's I wired up fans inside stove pipes that ran up the shafts of the wind mills of their "Plain & Fancy" eating places outside of Lancaster and York PA. The idea was to blow the smell of fresh baked pies all over the valley, making people hungry and coming to spend their money.
>
> Did it work?
>
> Fred
> "Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sons of Merriwether Lewis
Date: 03 May 1999 09:52:41 -0700
What Mr. Mullen has stated is correct per his references and several source pages that I checked on.
Mary Walker got the information turned around probably because of the closeness in names of Clark's sons - Meriwether Lewis Clark and Jefferson K. Clark, (she could have had them Jefferson's sons) !!!
Buck Conner
Colorado Territory
> On Mon, 03 May 1999, David Mullen wrote:
>
> Ms. Glise,
>
> Meriwiwether Lewis died a bachelor - which I realize does not preclude
> have children - and left no apparent offspring. None are mentioned in
> either _Undaunted Courage: Meriwether Lewis, Thomas Jefferson, and the
> Opening of the American West_ by Stephen E. Ambrose or in _Meriwether
> Lewis of Lewis and Clark_ by Charles M. Wilson. On the bright side Mary
> Walker does mention meeting two sons of William Clark. The two sons were
> Meriwether Lewis Clark and Jefferson K. Clark according to Elliot Coues
> in _The History of teh Lewis and Clark Expedition_.
>
> Hope this of some help.
>
> YMHOS,
> David Mullen
>
> --
> David & Evelyn Mullen
> 202 Mesa Verde
> Jemez Springs, NM 87025
> (505) 829-3212
> email: dmullen@jemez.com
>
> Laura Rugel Glise wrote:
> >
> > Can anyone on the list save me some research?
> >
> > Mary Walker, wife of Elkanah Walker (missionary), writes in her diary
> > that she met the sons of Merriwether Lewis in 1838. Anyone know their
> > names?
> >
> > Appreciate the help.
> >
> > Laura R. Glise
> > Atlanta, Georgia
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sons of Merriwether Lewis
Date: 03 May 1999 12:44:47 -0700
I have found several other mistakes in Mary Walker's diary on dates that she has wrong and will have to look, there was also the location of an event that was incorrect.
Turtle.
> On Mon, 03 May 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> What Mr. Mullen has stated is correct per his references and several source pages that I checked on.
>
> Mary Walker got the information turned around probably because of the closeness in names of Clark's sons - Meriwether Lewis Clark and Jefferson K. Clark, (she could have had them Jefferson's sons) !!!
>
> Buck Conner
> Colorado Territory
>
> > On Mon, 03 May 1999, David Mullen wrote:
> >
> > Ms. Glise,
> >
> > Meriwiwether Lewis died a bachelor - which I realize does not preclude
> > have children - and left no apparent offspring. None are mentioned in
> > either _Undaunted Courage: Meriwether Lewis, Thomas Jefferson, and the
> > Opening of the American West_ by Stephen E. Ambrose or in _Meriwether
> > Lewis of Lewis and Clark_ by Charles M. Wilson. On the bright side Mary
> > Walker does mention meeting two sons of William Clark. The two sons were
> > Meriwether Lewis Clark and Jefferson K. Clark according to Elliot Coues
> > in _The History of teh Lewis and Clark Expedition_.
> >
> > Hope this of some help.
> >
> > YMHOS,
> > David Mullen
> >
> > --
> > David & Evelyn Mullen
> > 202 Mesa Verde
> > Jemez Springs, NM 87025
> > (505) 829-3212
> > email: dmullen@jemez.com
> >
> > Laura Rugel Glise wrote:
> > >
> > > Can anyone on the list save me some research?
> > >
> > > Mary Walker, wife of Elkanah Walker (missionary), writes in her diary
> > > that she met the sons of Merriwether Lewis in 1838. Anyone know their
> > > names?
> > >
> > > Appreciate the help.
> > >
> > > Laura R. Glise
> > > Atlanta, Georgia
>
>
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: PowderHawk's Pride Patch Lube
Date: 03 May 1999 12:53:42 -0700
Turtle,
You mentioned PowderHawk's Pride, that was some real good patch lube, as well as a cleaner, I saw him on this list a while back, don't know if he is still selling the lube or not since moving to Iowa. Maybe the Stickin' Scottsman knows, they live near each other and are both AMM ?
Buck
> On Mon, 03 May 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
> A patch lube, like Powder Hawk's Pride, Ox-Yoke, Dixie Special, etc.
> Turtle.
>
> > > On Mon, 03 May 1999, "Henry B. Crawford" wrote:
> > >"Slicker 'n Willie Lube"
> > >
> >
> > OK, I'll finally ask. Can someone please explain. What the heck is
> > "Willie Lube?"
> >
> > HBC
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You may want to talk to him he was in the AMM in Colorado at one time (few years ago), had to move to Lake Mills, IA a year or so ago to care for his mother.
He only gets on-line a few times a month, do not have a number for him, think George Thompson knew of him and mentioned to Buck Conner for "Hawk" to get in touch with you. That's as far as I know at this time.
Turtle.
> On Mon, 03 May 1999, "McKee" wrote:
> Don't know the gentleman ( or anyone else AMM in Iowa) closest is Griz's
> boys in MO. If anyone besides me in Iowa...............speak up!! Long
> John
> CUSTOM MADE LEATHER GOODS,
> SPECIALIZING IN THE AMERICAN FUR TRADE ERA
> >
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Long John contact me off list for PowderHawk information, will fill you in.
Thanks
Buck
buck.conner@uswestmail.net
________________
> On Tue, 04 May 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> McKee,
> You may want to talk to him he was in the AMM in Colorado at one time (few years ago), had to move to Lake Mills, IA a year or so ago to care for his mother.
>
> He only gets on-line a few times a month, do not have a number for him, think George Thompson knew of him and mentioned to Buck Conner for "Hawk" to get in touch with you. That's as far as I know at this time.
> Turtle.
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There is a portrait of Sir William Drummond Stewart by Alfred Jacob Miller.
First, I need a description of what he's wearing that is historically correct and second, although this is a formal portrait do you think he would have had it with him at the Rendezvous of 1837 or 1838?
Second, could one of you describe for me what you think Captain Stewart might have worn on a day-to-day basis at those events.
> Then again it may be what Slick Willie uses when he puts it to the American people. Probably a daily occurence if we only knew.
I'm not gonna touch that one, Don!
Fred
>
> Fred A. Miller wrote:
> >"Henry B. Crawford" wrote:
> >> >> >"Slicker 'n Willie Lube"
> >> >
> >> >> OK, I'll finally ask. Can someone please explain. What the heck is
> >> "Willie Lube?"
> >
> >It's an all-natural lube that Mark DeWilde and I developed over a 2-yr. period. >It's available through the site listed below. We make a patch lube and a bullet
> >lube.
> >
> >Fred
> >
> >-- >"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
> >http://www.cap-n-ball.com/thunder/
--
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: In the white vs. browning vs. blueing
Date: 07 May 1999 07:33:22 -0700
Sorry, Caywood and your father are correct; government contracts, tradegun contracts for the most part stated "white" or "blue" for a finish. Information on many of the gun builders built guns with metal "white" as a standard in the early years according to Kit Ravenshear, around the turn of the 19th century "browning" started to appear. Usually weapons before that may have looked "browned" or "modeled" in appearance, but were really just rusted, as starting life in the white.
I'll sure others will have different opinions, but like Hawk will tell you, look for good documentation, don't listen to uneducated guesses.
Buck
> On Thu, 06 May 1999, Barbara Smith wrote:
>
> Okay, I felt like opening a can of worms, so I'm tossing this out to
> ya'll:
>
> My Dad is building me a gun. We're discussing all the minutae. He's
> decided to buy a kit from Caywood that sound pretty great. Caywood tells
> him that they can supply it in the white or blued. They say that blued
> is historically accurate.
>
> Now, my running buddies are all over me to take the blueing off my brand
> new flintlock and brown it! So, I says to Dad: "I want it in the white
> or browned." So Dad, being related to me, proceeds to drown me in facts
> about how blued is historically accurate. Help! Dad's a great guy, and
> has been shooting muzzleloaders all his life, but he's not "one of us!"
> And I just don't trust a guy who won't truss his privates up in a piece
> of wool! Any of you guys who've been to the Museum of the Fur Trade
> care to tell me what you saw there?
>
> Most gratefully yours,
> Tassee
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: In the white vs. browning vs. blueing
Date: 07 May 1999 09:00:30 -0700
As a general rule of thumb, what Buck stated is pretty close, but there are always exceptions to anything as we have seen on the drop front pants discussion a week or two ago.
I read that the Manton's always blued or color case hardened all the metal parts, then at a museum in England I find two cased guns that are a plumb brown, they were originally manufactured in that finish by John Manton. Have seen documentation stating the same about Twig (Manton learned his trade from him), same story as the Manton's - blued or color case hardened all the metal parts, then see a brown metal pair of matched pistols !
When we state white is white or black is black, that may not always be true because somewhere theres a gray one.
Turtle.
> On Fri, 07 May 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> Sorry, Caywood and your father are correct; government contracts, tradegun contracts for the most part stated "white" or "blue" for a finish. Information on many of the gun builders built guns with metal "white" as a standard in the early years according to Kit Ravenshear, around the turn of the 19th century "browning" started to appear. Usually weapons before that may have looked "browned" or "modeled" in appearance, but were really just rusted, as starting life in the white.
>
> I'll sure others will have different opinions, but like Hawk will tell you, look for good documentation, don't listen to uneducated guesses.
>
> Buck
>
> > On Thu, 06 May 1999, Barbara Smith wrote:
> >
> > Okay, I felt like opening a can of worms, so I'm tossing this out to
> > ya'll:
> >
> > My Dad is building me a gun. We're discussing all the minutae. He's
> > decided to buy a kit from Caywood that sound pretty great. Caywood tells
> > him that they can supply it in the white or blued. They say that blued
> > is historically accurate.
> >
> > Now, my running buddies are all over me to take the blueing off my brand
> > new flintlock and brown it! So, I says to Dad: "I want it in the white
> > or browned." So Dad, being related to me, proceeds to drown me in facts
> > about how blued is historically accurate. Help! Dad's a great guy, and
> > has been shooting muzzleloaders all his life, but he's not "one of us!"
> > And I just don't trust a guy who won't truss his privates up in a piece
> > of wool! Any of you guys who've been to the Museum of the Fur Trade
> > care to tell me what you saw there?
> >
> > Most gratefully yours,
> > Tassee
>
>
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: In the white-brown-blue vs aging
Date: 07 May 1999 10:35:31 -0700
Barbara,
Another choice is to have your father "age" the white metal parts, there are many methods around to do this giving the appearance of a gun that has a few years of wear. (some folks make a weapon look 100 years old and their persona is 1780 with a correct gun, except it looks older than the period, thus missing the whole point of period correct.) Hope that can out right.
I use your common old Clorox bleach and cold gun blue, clean the metal - then wipe on the bleach, let the parts set for an hour - wipe on the cold blue and then wipe again with the bleach. Let the second coat sit for 1/2 an hour and then wash off. Don't forget to plug bore, vent hole, etc., then wash with soap/water and oil. This will give a pleasing look that would have taken a year or two of field use to get. Oil when you clean and thats as simple as it gets, plus its easy to touch up in case of an accident.
Buck Conner
Colorado Territory
> On Fri, 07 May 1999, Roger Lahti wrote:
> Barbara Smith wrote:
>
> > Okay, I felt like opening a can of worms, so I'm tossing this out to
> > ya'll:
> >
> > My Dad is building me a gun. They say that blued
> > is historically accurate.
> >
> > And I just don't trust a guy who won't truss his privates up in a piece
> > of wool! Any of you guys who've been to the Museum of the Fur Trade
> > care to tell me what you saw there?
>
> Tassee;
>
> Well darlin, you know you can trust the "old Captain" now don't cha? Your
> daddy and Caywood are right when they say that "in the white or blued" is
> historically correct for many of the old guns. The problem is in appearance
> and peer pressure. For my part I would go with in the white or brown. Mainly
> because I don't like the look of blued muzzleloaders and I don't like a
> shiny barrel in the woods though they do look nice, especially after they
> have taken on an aged appearance. In any case it is your gun and you should
> be able to have it any way you want.
>
> As to the Museum of the Fur Trade, it has been a number of years since I was
> there but most of the old guns I have seen in that collection and since in
> other collections were brown whether they started out that way or ended up
> that way from natural rusting. That may be why we "see" browned metal parts
> as being correct to our modern eye even though they may have been white or
> blue to start out with originally. Walk your own path young lady! I
> remain........
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
> >
> >
> > Most gratefully yours,
> > Tassee
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Subject: MtMan-List: Challenge of the Trail REVIEW
Date: 08 May 1999 19:17:07 -0700
This is a multi-part message in MIME format...
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Content-Type: text/plain
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Hello Camp,
Just finished viewing the latest video done by our guides: Jeff hengesbaugh and Wes Housler titled "Challenge of the Trail" Skills of the Mountain Man 1820-1840.
They are improving their acting skills, and the overall effort is well done for a low dollar to no dollar available production, when considered what Hollywood puts out these boys have done very good. The background, wildlife and general items viewed are easy to understand, a good learning experience for the new greenhorn or the seasoned traveler.
The boys cover horse care, packing, equipage for your animal, as well as edibles and general traveling tips for the horseman. What to take on the trail, horse security and safety, period horse gear and period packing .
19th century trail food and cooking (had to plug the food - Clark & Sons Mercantile of Colorado furnished their edibles, and that damn Jeff just mentions corn and jerky or jerky and corn), choosing a good camp to survival tips and much more.
Lets remember that these brothers of the fur trade are the only ones at this time providing video's of our time frame, this is what is needed to get and keep the interest of new comers. Most of us have been doing this for a period and seem to forget we need to encourage new blood to get involved or our life style will died once more as in the past, lets support Jeff and Wes's efforts in keeping the fur trade alive. Like the AMM and many rendezvous of correctness, and local clubs, that's all there is for trying to carry on the history and hopefully keep Hollywood from screwing up to bad in the future.
By the way the weapons, horse gear and equipage really looks good, may be PBS should take note, plus they covered some ground in the making of the film, a 270 mile ride. At the end of the ride Wes's lady told me that Wes's Dad wanted to turn around and ride back, even in his early 60's he's as tuff as ever.
Give them a call and thanks for your time.
YF&B
Buck Conner
Baker Party / Colorado
dba/ Clark & Sons Mercantile
http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/
The address for the video is:
Rocky Mountain College Productions
22 Bell Canyon
Cloudcroft, NM 88317
505-687-3267
Challenge of the Trail
Video $19.95
Book $14.95
Dress and Equipage
Video $19.95
Book $14.95
Brain-tan Buffalo Hide
Video $24.95
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> Thanks for the address for the virus hoaxes. I am no expert about viruses or hoaxes, but every one (read "100%) of those whom I believe to be experts have assured me that no damage can be caused by opening any e-mail message...including messages with actual viruses embedded in them. Damage can occur only if you install the infected message into your computer memory. Do you concur with that opinion?
This is correct.....presently. Just reading the e-mail message alone will not
infect your system, however, if you open the attached file, then you could be
infected. This is less true of MAC systems, and MUCH less for a PC running
I'm no expert either. Sounds right to me. I think "attached files" are the culprit.
For those who think it's a harmless event to send "false" warnings, there is a cost to us all!
The problem with forwarding "hoax" warnings is that the exponential glutting of the bandwidth is something we can do without. If everyone on this list alone forwarded this warning to everyone in their address book and they intern their's...well, you can only imagine the thousands if not hundreds of thousands of needless messages clogging up the internet from only one warning. I've had in the neighborhood
of 30-40 "warnings" this year so far. All hoaxes and it took only 1 1/2 - 2 minutes to check it out. The people who forward warnings are sincere and concerned for us all and that is appreciated. I'm sure not upset nor do I blame anyone. Just passing on what I have learned. We all have a lot to learn about computers and the Internet. I still think it's all done with smoke and mirrors!
Lest I get chewed out for being "off topic" I'd better not say anymore on this one.
Medicine Bear
Ratcliff wrote:
> Frank
> Thanks for the address for the virus hoaxes. I am no expert about viruses or hoaxes, but every one (read "100%) of those whom I believe to be experts have assured me that no damage can be caused by opening any e-mail message...including messages with actual viruses embedded in them. Damage can occur only if you install the infected message into your computer memory. Do you concur with that opinion?
> Lanney Ratcliff
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Frank <Buckskinner@gbis.com>
> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
> Sent: Sunday, May 09, 1999 2:18 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: VERY Important!!!!!
>
> > John,
> >
> > Many many times you will see these warnings coming through your e-mail. As I
> > advise all my friends, please check them out before sending these all across
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Challenge of the Trail REVIEW
Date: 09 May 1999 19:32:14 -0700
Hawk,
I don't sell the tapes, as far as I know only the Rocky Mountain College Productions are the only ones that handle them.
Other than wanting to see what they did on edibles (which I feel could have been lengthened to do something like Baker did in his last tape). Having furnished the edibles for both these groups - Baker and Housler, I think Mark did the better job in that area. But for the rest of Jeff and Wes's work on this tape they cover a lot of information with the horse, camp and equipage, I feel it's a little crude in places, but hell their not professionals either and this is only #2, Mark's first three were equal to this one.
Yes I feel it was worth while for what I wanted to get out of it, others may feel different. I'll watch my copy many times just because I happen to get a kick out of these two old friends.
Buck
___________________________
> On Sun, 09 May 1999, Michael Pierce wrote:
>
> buck what are you getting for the tape---would like to view it myself and
> would give you my impression---would pay for a copy---
Maybe you need to sit down and have a talk with someone about your "atitude", can see having problems when standing, and being in a higher altitude (height problem). Now that I said that and will probably pay for it at the Nationals along with everthing else we have made fun of with the "Spud Gun".
"Polycythemia" is the medical name for your problem, has to do with red cell count in the blood when changing your surrounding (going higher or lower in altitude).
I read that people that live in high altitudes (above 10,000 ft.) have an increased number of red cells because the amount of oxygen in the air at this altitude is decreased, therefore the body reacts with increased red cell production. Those people move to a lower altitude, their polycythemia disappears, over a period of time.
So people going to high altitude not use to it may bring on the so-called "mountain sickness" do to having lower blood flow or red cells, usually by inadequate oxygen from the thin air. I have heard that to avoid the "sickness" approach the higher altitudes slowly for your body to adapt itself, that's hard to do when traveling on land, in a plane its done with pressure adjustments.
Drink lots of liquids, as mentioned water is the best, booze will seem to take less than usual for the same effect, anyone with health problems, over weight, etc. should see their doctor before changing to extreme altitudes as a safety measure. There are medicines available to help relieve the problem, can't remember what they were now, used to take in out of state hunters when living in Masonville CO and ones from lower to sea level altitudes did have problems, from headaches to sick in their stomach to not being able to walk any distances. Check your doctor Lanney, I know there are pills available that seem to help.
YF&B
Buck Conner
Baker Party / Colorado
-----Original Message-----
Cc: History List <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
I have a query for those with medical expertise. I am bothered by altitude sickness above 8000 or 8500 feet.....my town is elev. 659 feet...and I have been told by several people that altitude sickness can be controlled by drinking lots of water...that the water not only keeps you hydrated properly, but it also supplies the body with some oxygen. "You gotta drink your oxygen." I know I feel better at high altitude when I drink lots of water. Why?
Lanney Ratcliff
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
I think he has the laying around part down pretty good and he's always got a headache (so the aspirin a day is covered). He just has to change his brand of bottle, he's ready for the altitude.
Buck
> On Mon, 10 May 1999, Phyllis and Don Keas wrote:
>
> Lanney - Moving here from Oklahoma, I had to make some adjustments
> right at first, so here are a few suggestions. Some came from my wife, the
> Native Coloradoan.
>
> Take an aspirin a day for a couple of weeks before you get here.
> When you get to camp, do lots of laying around and taking it easy,
> especially for the first few days.
> Go to a supply house and rent an oxygen bottle to bring with you.
> Whenever you feel the need, go to your tent and inhale. Even if someone sees it
> and trys to raise a fuss, it is medicinal. I'm quite sure there won't be
> any problem, but if you need to, clear it with George or Gordon first.
>
> Hope this helps and if you need to aclimate for a few days at a higher
> altitude, you know where to do so, don't you? Don & Phyllis
>
> DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Being near Denver, it's a mile high, many sport teams come early to practice before the game and get adjusted to the thin air. If you watch baseball, basketball or football you'll see the vistors with their bottles of oxygen and masks on the sidelines.
I have a friend that's a long distance runner, he flys at this altitude, but when going to Boston the altitude change and humidity almost killed him the last few miles of the race.
Your damned if you do and damned if you don't anymore.
Buck
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
I will be camping near you and if needed will haul you out, remember I will have my new correct period wheelbarrow, (got the heavy duty model). Only kidding, I know how not feeling well can really take away from enjoying one's self.
At the '97 Nationals I got hit on the sciatic nerve on the back of my leg and that had me in pain for several weeks, you saw me hopping around in the parking lot. First time I met Lanney, and he's was making remarks about the big rabbit !
If you just take it easy and we can help if there's a problem, we'll be in good shape bud.
Later
YF&B
Buck Conner
________________
> On Mon, 10 May 1999, "Ratcliff" wrote:
>
>
> Thanks to all who generously responded with good information regarding altitude sickness. I got more than a little queasy at 9200 feet at the '97 AMM rendezvous, and I am sure others from low altitudes have experienced similar symptoms. I hope to have better luck this time. One request: if I get sick again and need assistance, don't let anybody field dress me before hauling me down the mountain.
>
> YMOS
>
> Lanney Ratcliff
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
I found some good information on your spoked wooden wheel, wheel barrow and for your information that design dates back to the 1500's. I wonder what the boys at Plymouth Rock had ?
Turtle.
> On Tue, 11 May 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> Lanney,
> I will be camping near you and if needed will haul you out, remember I will have my new correct period wheelbarrow, (got the heavy duty model). Only kidding, I know how not feeling well can really take away from enjoying one's self.
>
> At the '97 Nationals I got hit on the sciatic nerve on the back of my leg and that had me in pain for several weeks, you saw me hopping around in the parking lot. First time I met Lanney, and he's was making remarks about the big rabbit !
>
> If you just take it easy and we can help if there's a problem, we'll be in good shape bud.
>
> Later
> YF&B
> Buck Conner
> ________________
>
> > On Mon, 10 May 1999, "Ratcliff" wrote:
> >
> >
> > Thanks to all who generously responded with good information regarding altitude sickness. I got more than a little queasy at 9200 feet at the '97 AMM rendezvous, and I am sure others from low altitudes have experienced similar symptoms. I hope to have better luck this time. One request: if I get sick again and need assistance, don't let anybody field dress me before hauling me down the mountain.
> >
> > YMOS
> >
> > Lanney Ratcliff
>
>
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
> On Tue, 11 May 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> Buck,
> I found some good information on your spoked wooden wheel, wheel barrow and for your information that design dates back to the 1500's. I wonder what the boys at Plymouth Rock had ?
> Turtle.
>
>
> > On Tue, 11 May 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote:
> >
> > Lanney,
> > I will be camping near you and if needed will haul you out, remember I will have my new correct period wheelbarrow, (got the heavy duty model). Only kidding, I know how not feeling well can really take away from enjoying one's self.
> >
> > At the '97 Nationals I got hit on the sciatic nerve on the back of my leg and that had me in pain for several weeks, you saw me hopping around in the parking lot. First time I met Lanney, and he's was making remarks about the big rabbit !
> >
> > If you just take it easy and we can help if there's a problem, we'll be in good shape bud.
> >
> > Later
> > YF&B
> > Buck Conner
> > ________________
> >
> > > On Mon, 10 May 1999, "Ratcliff" wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks to all who generously responded with good information regarding altitude sickness. I got more than a little queasy at 9200 feet at the '97 AMM rendezvous, and I am sure others from low altitudes have experienced similar symptoms. I hope to have better luck this time. One request: if I get sick again and need assistance, don't let anybody field dress me before hauling me down the mountain.
> > >
> > > YMOS
> > >
> > > Lanney Ratcliff
> >
> >
> > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
>
>
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period recipes, drinks, camp life....
Date: 14 May 1999 18:49:32 -0700
According to the folks at Gettsyburg Museum it was available after the big fight, some of the southern boys demanded enought gunpowder to make a brew before being moved to Federal encampments, per literature from this site!
Buck
> On Thu, 13 May 1999, EmmaPeel2@aol.com wrote:
>
> Just what WAS in that Taos Lightning? Ive heard it was made at Turley's Mill
> and was basically whisky or grain alcohol with gunpowder! Is this true...and
> wouldnt that be toxic? (Heaven forbid they light up a corncob pipe..) Is it
> true that it was shipped all over the country? If so, wouldn't that have
> stopped in 1847?
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Does anyone have a Goose Bay Workshops Catalog?
Date: 21 May 1999 05:30:15 -0700
The web site for Goose Bay Workshops is: http://www.teleport.com/~walking/goosebay/
The address is listed on the site, Peter Gobel doesn't have a computer, so I put up his web site and keep him informed of what I feel is needed for changes, correction, etc. to his site. In time we will enlarge it to the size of my web page.
Buck Conner
dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc.
http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/
__________________________________________
> On Thu, 20 May 1999, Barbara Smith wrote:
>
> Klahowya Tillicum,
>
> Does anyone have a Goose Bay Workshops catalog handy? Their website
> doesn't give a complete catalog. I want to know the price for the small
> copper measuring tankard, tin lined.
>
> Thanks!
>
> YMDS,
> Tassee
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Does anyone have a Goose Bay Workshops Catalog?
Date: 22 May 1999 08:33:03 -0700
Barbara,
Contact Peter from the information on his web site and he can make anything you want, the catalog is only a sample of what he does. He makes many many items that are not shown. If he showed everything in the catalog it would look like a Sears sales catalog at Christmas.
Buck conner
On Fri, 21 May 1999, Tom Roberts wrote:
>
> Barbara Smith wrote:
>
> > Klahowya Tillicum,
> >
> > Does anyone have a Goose Bay Workshops catalog handy? Their website
> > doesn't give a complete catalog. I want to know the price for the small
> > copper measuring tankard, tin lined.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > YMDS,
> > Tassee
>
> I have the current (#5) catalog and have scoured it thoroughly but do not
> find anything exactly described as a "small copper measuring tankard". The
> closest I can find is a "tankard", 5" tall holding 32 oz for $45, or a "gill
> cup" 2" dia and 2" tall holding 1/2 cup for $25. There are plenty of items
> but none described as being for measuring. You may need to call.
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
I wanted to bring this to you and your readers attention, as a part of our history may be sold and will never be available again as it is now.
If you read this short article of my area history, and your history too, no matter your location if you live in America you should be concerned about this battle site.
We have been trying to make everyone aware of the possible sale of a national treasure, have had little to no responce from our elected officials.
Thank you
Buck Conner
________________________________________________
THE PAOLI MASSACRE, WAS IT A MASSACRE ?
by Buck Conner
AMM Baker Party Colorado
When friends find I had family at this site, they ask why was it called a "Massacre". Probably one reason this event was called a "Massacre", was the people murdered while sleeping in their blankets, not trained military personnel or not skilled in war, as were the men that did the deed. The largest part of them were local farmers and
merchants that should have stayed home according to many of the local historians of this area. They were out classed by a long ways, compared to trained and field harden troops.
My family owned a small farm next door to the Malvern Memorial Grounds (Paoli Massacre site) before and up
until around 1937, at which time my father sold all but one acre of the original farm.
There was where I was born, in the new stone house he built with the funds gotten from the sale of the farm.
The family told us stories of this event when we were growing up of a one sided fight, of a young hot headed family member, that was stabbed while asleep in the barn some 400-500 yards away from the battle site and the family's claim that a known local "TORY" had done the deed, then bragged of it several weeks later in Berwyn, Pa., about 12 miles away.
Friends of my family came to their aid as they were German Amish and wouldn't fight, caught the Tory weeks later and hung him from the same barn the family member was murdered in. The story goes, that one of the group cut off the Tory's male organs and placed them in his mouth for all to see and a warning what would happen to
other Tories in the area. (not new to WW II, as told in school).
My great Grand Father took great pride in telling us about this (we were about 4 or 5 years old at the time), and "how the body hung as a reminder to all, for several weeks or till the smell was more than they could handle."
After the Paoli Massacre, General A. Wayne's aquired a new name (Mad Anthony Wayne), came about for action he took in fighting the British at Germantown, Pa., where he found them sleeping and burned them alive, those coming out of the fire were shot. I read one account that after the fight, General Washington sent him to the western frontier (NW Pa.). He was now not to be considered a Gentlemen for his actions in war!
________________________________
PLEASE TAKE NOTE OF A HISTORICAL SITE IN DANGER
Save the Paoli Massacre Site Detail, "Battle of Paoli" by Xavier Della Gatta, 1782 On the night of September 20-21, 1777, in what is now the Borough of Malvern, Chester County, Pennsylvania,
American soldiers under the command of Brigadier General Anthony Wayne were attacked and put to the bayonet by British soldiers under the command of Major General Charles Grey.
As you may be aware, it was at this site that 53 of our first soldiers paid the highest price possible for the privilege of being called an American.
For reasons that have been lost in history, these brave soldiers were not buried on the field of honor, but dragged across the property line and buried in what is now called The Paoli Memorial Grounds, although the site has always been revered locally, it has never received the national recognition it deserves because it has always been separated from the main part of the original battlefield.
It is now possible that this can change!
The borough of Malvern has been approached by the Malvern Preparatory School about the possibility of purchasing the property and creating a single historic park consisting of the 40-acre battlefield and the contiguous 22-acre Memorial Ground.
Should this come to pass, for the first time in history, the battlefield where these men fought and died and the Sacred Ground where they are buried will become one.
The director of the Bureau for Historic Places recently has made a determination of eligibility for this site to be listed on the National Register of Historic Places. This is expected to happen within a year.
The price quoted by the Malvern Preparatory School for the property is two and a half million dollars. The question is, "where does a small town of 2,944 people get that kind of money?" The answer is that many patriotic persons raise the funds necessary to purchase the battlefield and place it in the Public Trust for permanent preservation and maintenance.
The name of the corporation is "Paoli Battlefield Preservation Trust."
Remember the young men who fought and died at this location were our first volunteers and our first veterans.
What they did and where they did it need to be preserved and maintained as Hallowed Ground by and for the citizens for which they made their sacrifice.
If you can help to make this happen, please contact Pat McGuigan, Borough Manager at (610) 644-2602, or send a contribution to:
Paoli Battlefield Preservation Trust
c/o Borough of Malvern
Box 437
Malvern, PA 19355
Thank you for taking the time to read this and special thanks to the Paoli Battlefield Preservation Trust for letting us know of their needs.
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: National Treasure for sale.
Date: 23 May 1999 10:19:44 -0700
Hey Buck,
Thanks for the information, I'll take it to my VFW and a Vietnam group I belong to, know they'll be interested as will others.
Thanks again.
Turtle.
PS
Hell, I live in NW PA and hadn't heard about them wanting to sell the property, was there a few years ago, pretty moving.
__________________________________________
> On Sun, 23 May 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> Dear Editor, historical buff and reenacter,
>
> I wanted to bring this to you and your readers attention, as a part of our history may be sold and will never be available again as it is now.
>
> If you read this short article of my area history, and your history too, no matter your location if you live in America you should be concerned about this battle site.
>
> We have been trying to make everyone aware of the possible sale of a national treasure, have had little to no responce from our elected officials.
> When friends find I had family at this site, they ask why was it called a "Massacre". Probably one reason this event was called a "Massacre", was the people murdered while sleeping in their blankets, not trained military personnel or not skilled in war, as were the men that did the deed. The largest part of them were local farmers and
> merchants that should have stayed home according to many of the local historians of this area. They were out classed by a long ways, compared to trained and field harden troops.
>
> My family owned a small farm next door to the Malvern Memorial Grounds (Paoli Massacre site) before and up
> until around 1937, at which time my father sold all but one acre of the original farm.
>
> There was where I was born, in the new stone house he built with the funds gotten from the sale of the farm.
>
> The family told us stories of this event when we were growing up of a one sided fight, of a young hot headed family member, that was stabbed while asleep in the barn some 400-500 yards away from the battle site and the family's claim that a known local "TORY" had done the deed, then bragged of it several weeks later in Berwyn, Pa., about 12 miles away.
>
> Friends of my family came to their aid as they were German Amish and wouldn't fight, caught the Tory weeks later and hung him from the same barn the family member was murdered in. The story goes, that one of the group cut off the Tory's male organs and placed them in his mouth for all to see and a warning what would happen to
> other Tories in the area. (not new to WW II, as told in school).
>
> My great Grand Father took great pride in telling us about this (we were about 4 or 5 years old at the time), and "how the body hung as a reminder to all, for several weeks or till the smell was more than they could handle."
>
> After the Paoli Massacre, General A. Wayne's aquired a new name (Mad Anthony Wayne), came about for action he took in fighting the British at Germantown, Pa., where he found them sleeping and burned them alive, those coming out of the fire were shot. I read one account that after the fight, General Washington sent him to the western frontier (NW Pa.). He was now not to be considered a Gentlemen for his actions in war!
>
> ________________________________
> PLEASE TAKE NOTE OF A HISTORICAL SITE IN DANGER
>
> Save the Paoli Massacre Site Detail, "Battle of Paoli" by Xavier Della Gatta, 1782 On the night of September 20-21, 1777, in what is now the Borough of Malvern, Chester County, Pennsylvania,
> American soldiers under the command of Brigadier General Anthony Wayne were attacked and put to the bayonet by British soldiers under the command of Major General Charles Grey.
>
> As you may be aware, it was at this site that 53 of our first soldiers paid the highest price possible for the privilege of being called an American.
>
> For reasons that have been lost in history, these brave soldiers were not buried on the field of honor, but dragged across the property line and buried in what is now called The Paoli Memorial Grounds, although the site has always been revered locally, it has never received the national recognition it deserves because it has always been separated from the main part of the original battlefield.
> It is now possible that this can change!
>
> The borough of Malvern has been approached by the Malvern Preparatory School about the possibility of purchasing the property and creating a single historic park consisting of the 40-acre battlefield and the contiguous 22-acre Memorial Ground.
>
> Should this come to pass, for the first time in history, the battlefield where these men fought and died and the Sacred Ground where they are buried will become one.
>
> The director of the Bureau for Historic Places recently has made a determination of eligibility for this site to be listed on the National Register of Historic Places. This is expected to happen within a year.
>
> The price quoted by the Malvern Preparatory School for the property is two and a half million dollars. The question is, "where does a small town of 2,944 people get that kind of money?" The answer is that many patriotic persons raise the funds necessary to purchase the battlefield and place it in the Public Trust for permanent preservation and maintenance.
>
> The name of the corporation is "Paoli Battlefield Preservation Trust."
> Remember the young men who fought and died at this location were our first volunteers and our first veterans.
>
> What they did and where they did it need to be preserved and maintained as Hallowed Ground by and for the citizens for which they made their sacrifice.
>
> If you can help to make this happen, please contact Pat McGuigan, Borough Manager at (610) 644-2602, or send a contribution to:
>
> Paoli Battlefield Preservation Trust
> c/o Borough of Malvern
> Box 437
> Malvern, PA 19355
>
> Thank you for taking the time to read this and special thanks to the Paoli Battlefield Preservation Trust for letting us know of their needs.
>
>
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: National Treasure for sale.
Date: 23 May 1999 13:39:45 -0700
Thanks for the information, remember reading about this site and Wayne getting down and dirty after loosing his men, that's enought to make any leader go to extremes.
I'll give this information to my VFW Post and the local paper, better news than hearing who slick willy took advantage.
Where are our leaders heads at, to leave this site slip throw their fingers, and the veterans groups, just like Wayne's home - when the Japs brought it a few years ago.
Powder Hawk
Iowa Terrritory
_________________
> On Sun, 23 May 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> Hey Buck,
> Thanks for the information, I'll take it to my VFW and a Vietnam group I belong to, know they'll be interested as will others.
> Thanks again.
> Turtle.
>
> PS
> Hell, I live in NW PA and hadn't heard about them wanting to sell the property, was there a few years ago, pretty moving.
>
> __________________________________________
>
> > On Sun, 23 May 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote:
> >
> > Dear Editor, historical buff and reenacter,
> >
> > I wanted to bring this to you and your readers attention, as a part of our history may be sold and will never be available again as it is now.
> >
> > If you read this short article of my area history, and your history too, no matter your location if you live in America you should be concerned about this battle site.
> >
> > We have been trying to make everyone aware of the possible sale of a national treasure, have had little to no responce from our elected officials.
> > When friends find I had family at this site, they ask why was it called a "Massacre". Probably one reason this event was called a "Massacre", was the people murdered while sleeping in their blankets, not trained military personnel or not skilled in war, as were the men that did the deed. The largest part of them were local farmers and
> > merchants that should have stayed home according to many of the local historians of this area. They were out classed by a long ways, compared to trained and field harden troops.
> >
> > My family owned a small farm next door to the Malvern Memorial Grounds (Paoli Massacre site) before and up
> > until around 1937, at which time my father sold all but one acre of the original farm.
> >
> > There was where I was born, in the new stone house he built with the funds gotten from the sale of the farm.
> >
> > The family told us stories of this event when we were growing up of a one sided fight, of a young hot headed family member, that was stabbed while asleep in the barn some 400-500 yards away from the battle site and the family's claim that a known local "TORY" had done the deed, then bragged of it several weeks later in Berwyn, Pa., about 12 miles away.
> >
> > Friends of my family came to their aid as they were German Amish and wouldn't fight, caught the Tory weeks later and hung him from the same barn the family member was murdered in. The story goes, that one of the group cut off the Tory's male organs and placed them in his mouth for all to see and a warning what would happen to
> > other Tories in the area. (not new to WW II, as told in school).
> >
> > My great Grand Father took great pride in telling us about this (we were about 4 or 5 years old at the time), and "how the body hung as a reminder to all, for several weeks or till the smell was more than they could handle."
> >
> > After the Paoli Massacre, General A. Wayne's aquired a new name (Mad Anthony Wayne), came about for action he took in fighting the British at Germantown, Pa., where he found them sleeping and burned them alive, those coming out of the fire were shot. I read one account that after the fight, General Washington sent him to the western frontier (NW Pa.). He was now not to be considered a Gentlemen for his actions in war!
> >
> > ________________________________
> > PLEASE TAKE NOTE OF A HISTORICAL SITE IN DANGER
> >
> > Save the Paoli Massacre Site Detail, "Battle of Paoli" by Xavier Della Gatta, 1782 On the night of September 20-21, 1777, in what is now the Borough of Malvern, Chester County, Pennsylvania,
> > American soldiers under the command of Brigadier General Anthony Wayne were attacked and put to the bayonet by British soldiers under the command of Major General Charles Grey.
> >
> > As you may be aware, it was at this site that 53 of our first soldiers paid the highest price possible for the privilege of being called an American.
> >
> > For reasons that have been lost in history, these brave soldiers were not buried on the field of honor, but dragged across the property line and buried in what is now called The Paoli Memorial Grounds, although the site has always been revered locally, it has never received the national recognition it deserves because it has always been separated from the main part of the original battlefield.
> > It is now possible that this can change!
> >
> > The borough of Malvern has been approached by the Malvern Preparatory School about the possibility of purchasing the property and creating a single historic park consisting of the 40-acre battlefield and the contiguous 22-acre Memorial Ground.
> >
> > Should this come to pass, for the first time in history, the battlefield where these men fought and died and the Sacred Ground where they are buried will become one.
> >
> > The director of the Bureau for Historic Places recently has made a determination of eligibility for this site to be listed on the National Register of Historic Places. This is expected to happen within a year.
> >
> > The price quoted by the Malvern Preparatory School for the property is two and a half million dollars. The question is, "where does a small town of 2,944 people get that kind of money?" The answer is that many patriotic persons raise the funds necessary to purchase the battlefield and place it in the Public Trust for permanent preservation and maintenance.
> >
> > The name of the corporation is "Paoli Battlefield Preservation Trust."
> > Remember the young men who fought and died at this location were our first volunteers and our first veterans.
> >
> > What they did and where they did it need to be preserved and maintained as Hallowed Ground by and for the citizens for which they made their sacrifice.
> >
> > If you can help to make this happen, please contact Pat McGuigan, Borough Manager at (610) 644-2602, or send a contribution to:
> >
> > Paoli Battlefield Preservation Trust
> > c/o Borough of Malvern
> > Box 437
> > Malvern, PA 19355
> >
> > Thank you for taking the time to read this and special thanks to the Paoli Battlefield Preservation Trust for letting us know of their needs.
> >
> >
> > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
>
>
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: National Treasure for sale.
Date: 23 May 1999 15:45:45 -0700
Thanks for the help, the more we let folks know the more pressure could be put on someone or some group to carry the ball. I've written to the VA, VFW and a number of officals of government.
I always questioned where Anthony Wayne got the name MAD, (he had a coat that when worn inside out looked like a British Officer's coat, normal side was that of an American Officer). Right after the Paoli affair he escaped marching a group of British Regulars out of Malvern and was called crazy (mad) at that time for such a daring feat.
At Germantown a short period later after Paoli, he and his men surround an encampment of British Regulars settled in for the night, they collected lamp oil and any oil that would burn. Soaked the outer edges around the camp and then started a circle of fire. Anyone coming out of the circle of fire was shot according to several accounts, those remaining died a terrible death. That's when Washington sent him and the men involved to the western frontier, no longer considered gentlemen.
Sounded like a good plan to me, at least Wayne could win battles, that's more than Washington could say on most of his engagements.
Later
Buck conner
dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile
http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/
_________________________________________
> On Sun, 23 May 1999, powderhawk@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> Thanks for the information, remember reading about this site and Wayne getting down and dirty after loosing his men, that's enought to make any leader go to extremes.
>
> I'll give this information to my VFW Post and the local paper, better news than hearing who slick willy took advantage.
>
> Where are our leaders heads at, to leave this site slip throw their fingers, and the veterans groups, just like Wayne's home - when the Japs brought it a few years ago.
>
> Powder Hawk
> Iowa Terrritory
> _________________
> > On Sun, 23 May 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
> >
> > Hey Buck,
> > Thanks for the information, I'll take it to my VFW and a Vietnam group I belong to, know they'll be interested as will others.
> > Thanks again.
> > Turtle.
> >
> > PS
> > Hell, I live in NW PA and hadn't heard about them wanting to sell the property, was there a few years ago, pretty moving.
> >
> > __________________________________________
> >
> > > On Sun, 23 May 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Editor, historical buff and reenacter,
> > >
> > > I wanted to bring this to you and your readers attention, as a part of our history may be sold and will never be available again as it is now.
> > >
> > > If you read this short article of my area history, and your history too, no matter your location if you live in America you should be concerned about this battle site.
> > >
> > > We have been trying to make everyone aware of the possible sale of a national treasure, have had little to no responce from our elected officials.
> > > When friends find I had family at this site, they ask why was it called a "Massacre". Probably one reason this event was called a "Massacre", was the people murdered while sleeping in their blankets, not trained military personnel or not skilled in war, as were the men that did the deed. The largest part of them were local farmers and
> > > merchants that should have stayed home according to many of the local historians of this area. They were out classed by a long ways, compared to trained and field harden troops.
> > >
> > > My family owned a small farm next door to the Malvern Memorial Grounds (Paoli Massacre site) before and up
> > > until around 1937, at which time my father sold all but one acre of the original farm.
> > >
> > > There was where I was born, in the new stone house he built with the funds gotten from the sale of the farm.
> > >
> > > The family told us stories of this event when we were growing up of a one sided fight, of a young hot headed family member, that was stabbed while asleep in the barn some 400-500 yards away from the battle site and the family's claim that a known local "TORY" had done the deed, then bragged of it several weeks later in Berwyn, Pa., about 12 miles away.
> > >
> > > Friends of my family came to their aid as they were German Amish and wouldn't fight, caught the Tory weeks later and hung him from the same barn the family member was murdered in. The story goes, that one of the group cut off the Tory's male organs and placed them in his mouth for all to see and a warning what would happen to
> > > other Tories in the area. (not new to WW II, as told in school).
> > >
> > > My great Grand Father took great pride in telling us about this (we were about 4 or 5 years old at the time), and "how the body hung as a reminder to all, for several weeks or till the smell was more than they could handle."
> > >
> > > After the Paoli Massacre, General A. Wayne's aquired a new name (Mad Anthony Wayne), came about for action he took in fighting the British at Germantown, Pa., where he found them sleeping and burned them alive, those coming out of the fire were shot. I read one account that after the fight, General Washington sent him to the western frontier (NW Pa.). He was now not to be considered a Gentlemen for his actions in war!
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > PLEASE TAKE NOTE OF A HISTORICAL SITE IN DANGER
> > >
> > > Save the Paoli Massacre Site Detail, "Battle of Paoli" by Xavier Della Gatta, 1782 On the night of September 20-21, 1777, in what is now the Borough of Malvern, Chester County, Pennsylvania,
> > > American soldiers under the command of Brigadier General Anthony Wayne were attacked and put to the bayonet by British soldiers under the command of Major General Charles Grey.
> > >
> > > As you may be aware, it was at this site that 53 of our first soldiers paid the highest price possible for the privilege of being called an American.
> > >
> > > For reasons that have been lost in history, these brave soldiers were not buried on the field of honor, but dragged across the property line and buried in what is now called The Paoli Memorial Grounds, although the site has always been revered locally, it has never received the national recognition it deserves because it has always been separated from the main part of the original battlefield.
> > > It is now possible that this can change!
> > >
> > > The borough of Malvern has been approached by the Malvern Preparatory School about the possibility of purchasing the property and creating a single historic park consisting of the 40-acre battlefield and the contiguous 22-acre Memorial Ground.
> > >
> > > Should this come to pass, for the first time in history, the battlefield where these men fought and died and the Sacred Ground where they are buried will become one.
> > >
> > > The director of the Bureau for Historic Places recently has made a determination of eligibility for this site to be listed on the National Register of Historic Places. This is expected to happen within a year.
> > >
> > > The price quoted by the Malvern Preparatory School for the property is two and a half million dollars. The question is, "where does a small town of 2,944 people get that kind of money?" The answer is that many patriotic persons raise the funds necessary to purchase the battlefield and place it in the Public Trust for permanent preservation and maintenance.
> > >
> > > The name of the corporation is "Paoli Battlefield Preservation Trust."
> > > Remember the young men who fought and died at this location were our first volunteers and our first veterans.
> > >
> > > What they did and where they did it need to be preserved and maintained as Hallowed Ground by and for the citizens for which they made their sacrifice.
> > >
> > > If you can help to make this happen, please contact Pat McGuigan, Borough Manager at (610) 644-2602, or send a contribution to:
> > >
> > > Paoli Battlefield Preservation Trust
> > > c/o Borough of Malvern
> > > Box 437
> > > Malvern, PA 19355
> > >
> > > Thank you for taking the time to read this and special thanks to the Paoli Battlefield Preservation Trust for letting us know of their needs.
> > >
> > >
> > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
> >
> >
> > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
>
>
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
As others have stated double flint guns go high, I've sold originals in good shape in the $1500 to $2000 range, and poor condition ones as cheap as $750 that needed restocking.
I picked up a reproduction gun a few years ago, in good condition, shot very little for $900, have seen Dixie Gun Works have a double once in a while (reproduction) in their Antique Gun Quartely in the $1500 to $2500 range. These weapons are costly no matter who built them.
Later
Buck Conner
dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile
www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/
_________________________________
On Thu, 27 May 1999, "john c. funk,jr" wrote:
>
> OK ! That didn't get much response. Does anyone know of a builder that builds "flint" shotguns?
>
> I want a FLINT SHOTGUN !!!! I'd rather build it myself but I'll listen to anything at this point.
>
>
>
> John Funk
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Lewis's journal of May 20, 1805, decribes a "handsome river" which the capatins named Sacagawea, or Bird Woman's River.
May 20th. The large creek which we passed..we Call Blowing fly Creek, from the emence quantities of those insects which geather on our meat in such nombers that we are obledged to brush them off what we eate. John Ordway.
May 30th. Many circumstances indicate our near approach to a country whos climate differs considerably from that in which we have been for many months. [Clark names the Judith River in honor of a young girl back in Virginia he hoped to one day be his wife] The air of the open country is asstonishingly dry as well as pure. I found by several expeeriments that a table spoon of water exposed to the air in a saucer would evaporate in 36 hours...My inkstand so frequently becoming dry put me on this experiment. I also observed the well seasoned case of my sextant shrunk considerably and the joints opened. Meriwether Lewis.
May 31st. We passed some very curious cliffs and rocky peaks, in a long range. Some of them 200 feet high and not more than eigth fett thick. They seem as if built by the hand of man, and are so numerous that they appear like the ruins of an acinet city. Patrick Gass.
May 31st. In maney places...we observe on either Side of the river extraodanary walls of a black Semented Stone which appear to be regularly placed one Stone on the other..[T]hose walls Commence at the waters edge & in Some places meet at right angles. William Clark.
May 31st. The hills and river Cliffs which we passed today exhibit a most romantic appearance...The bluffs of the river rise to the hight of from 2 to 300 feet and in most places nearly perpendicular; they are formed of remarkable white sandstone...
The water in the course of time in decending from those hills and plains on either side of the river has trickled down the soft sand clifts and woarn it into a thousand grotesque figures, which with the help of a little immagination...are made to represnt eligant ranges of lofty freestone buildings, having their parapets well stocked with statuary... Meriwether Lewis.
______________________________________
Many of the brothers have made this trip from Ft. Benton passed Judith Landing and further south on the Upper Missouri, reading what has been stated almost 200 years before brings back fond memories of this land and what we have all seen - then and now.
If you have never made this trip please write it down as a "must adventure to do", if you don't canoe (best way to see it) there are float trips available. Be sure to ask the US Forest Service for use of their "Guide Book" while making the trip, it really adds to the river with history and pictures, like Bodimer's, etc. painted in the early 1800's, and the landscape hasn't changed that much. Believe me you'll remember this water venture for years, period or not take a camera and a note pad - you'll make good use of both.
Buck Conner
Baker Party/Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Memorial Day 1999 / look back to 1805
Date: 31 May 1999 15:57:52 -0700
Thank you for the comments, I try and hit all the Holidays with what was happening with the Corps of Discovery, some of their days aren't that much different than our today. Enjoying each others company and thankful for what they have.
Later
Buck Conner
dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile
> On Mon, 31 May 1999, Laura Rugel Glise wrote:
>
> Thank you Mr. Conner, I always enjoy your posts and your web site.
>
> Laura Glise
> Atlanta
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Memorial Day 1999 / look back to 1805
Date: 31 May 1999 16:09:22 -0700
Buck,
Just got in and checked the mail, was at my VFW Post after the parade, and we were wondering if you would send mail about L&C and the group. Several of us have saved all your posting for the holidays, we really do enjoy them and wanted to tell you to keep them coming, the 4th of July should be very interesting back then.
Thanks for the effort, we seem to forget to let you guys know how much good you do with these interesting posting, plus a funny remark now and then makes it light reading.
Turtle
PA Colonies
__________________
> On Mon, 31 May 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> Good Morning and Good Memorial Day,
>
>
>
> By the way being Memorial Day 1999, Let's take a look at what our forefather's were up to on the Upper Missouri 1805.
> Lewis's journal of May 20, 1805, decribes a "handsome river" which the capatins named Sacagawea, or Bird Woman's River.
>
>
>
> May 20th. The large creek which we passed..we Call Blowing fly Creek, from the emence quantities of those insects which geather on our meat in such nombers that we are obledged to brush them off what we eate. John Ordway.
>
>
>
> May 30th. Many circumstances indicate our near approach to a country whos climate differs considerably from that in which we have been for many months. [Clark names the Judith River in honor of a young girl back in Virginia he hoped to one day be his wife] The air of the open country is asstonishingly dry as well as pure. I found by several expeeriments that a table spoon of water exposed to the air in a saucer would evaporate in 36 hours...My inkstand so frequently becoming dry put me on this experiment. I also observed the well seasoned case of my sextant shrunk considerably and the joints opened. Meriwether Lewis.
>
>
>
> May 31st. We passed some very curious cliffs and rocky peaks, in a long range. Some of them 200 feet high and not more than eigth fett thick. They seem as if built by the hand of man, and are so numerous that they appear like the ruins of an acinet city. Patrick Gass.
>
>
>
> May 31st. In maney places...we observe on either Side of the river extraodanary walls of a black Semented Stone which appear to be regularly placed one Stone on the other..[T]hose walls Commence at the waters edge & in Some places meet at right angles. William Clark.
>
>
>
> May 31st. The hills and river Cliffs which we passed today exhibit a most romantic appearance...The bluffs of the river rise to the hight of from 2 to 300 feet and in most places nearly perpendicular; they are formed of remarkable white sandstone...
>
>
>
> The water in the course of time in decending from those hills and plains on either side of the river has trickled down the soft sand clifts and woarn it into a thousand grotesque figures, which with the help of a little immagination...are made to represnt eligant ranges of lofty freestone buildings, having their parapets well stocked with statuary... Meriwether Lewis.
>
> ______________________________________
>
>
>
> Many of the brothers have made this trip from Ft. Benton passed Judith Landing and further south on the Upper Missouri, reading what has been stated almost 200 years before brings back fond memories of this land and what we have all seen - then and now.
>
>
>
> If you have never made this trip please write it down as a "must adventure to do", if you don't canoe (best way to see it) there are float trips available. Be sure to ask the US Forest Service for use of their "Guide Book" while making the trip, it really adds to the river with history and pictures, like Bodimer's, etc. painted in the early 1800's, and the landscape hasn't changed that much. Believe me you'll remember this water venture for years, period or not take a camera and a note pad - you'll make good use of both.
>
>
>
> Buck Conner
>
> Baker Party/Colorado
>
> Aux Ailments de Pays!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
