A few years ago when Charley was still at the Museum of the Fur Trade, there was an old Hawken on display. My father 25 years ago gave Charley a box of Hawken parts (lock, butt plate, triggers & guard, most of the screws, etc.) mainly missing the wood and a barrel - breech plug. This was a collection of parts from 2 or 3 junkers he had collected over the years before the Baird books, and most people weren't into broken arms. Maybe that's what the gun is at the museum, built from those parts ???
Buck
On Thu, 01 April 1999, hawknest4@juno.com wrote:
>
> whose Hawken are you speaking of?????? I know most of them out
> there---I have originals myself---don steath has 2 kip rap has 3 and the
> hawkins shop in wa state has some but questionable as to being
> originals--ed white has one chuck pengry has one but it is not totally
> original--there is 5 or 6 in the museum in st louis there is one in
> helena montana (the briger gun) there is one that was owned by orval
> dunham family, there is the kit carson gun, there is a couple that was in
> the leonord collection, there is one owned by dawson, there is the madena
> rifle, there is one in the colorado historical museum, 2 in smithsonian,
> there is one or more in the lour collection, there is one owned by
> peterson, and about 5 or 6 more out there that are validated to be
> original---be wary---lot of fakes out ther---most people that own them if
> they are documented don't want to sell them and if something happens to
> them they are willed to someone or to a museum as such---there was also
> one that was in croften nebraska don't remember the owners name and one
> that was in california---andy fauntree i thank could expand on the one
> that was in california---I believe he held and fondled it one time or
> another don't know if it can be traced and validated as original---there
> is also one or more in the davis collection in clarimore oklahoma if i
> remember correctly---Ed white in alaska had some barrels that he found in
> alaska that were stamped hawkens---don't know what ever happened to
> them---said that were made into mining chizzles---or that is the way the
> story goes---might also check with don king ---he has held and fondled a
> few of them if i am not mistaken
>
> bill large had the original stamp at one time and believe he popped a
> couple of barrels with the original stamp---those were sent to the st
> louis area---?????? long story there for sure---watch out for cherry
> corners parts---or slant breaches that don't have the proper angle-or
> triggers with any markings on them--hawkens only used one specific angle
> for his slant breach's---hawkens also made a few squirrel rifles---don
> steith has one with brass furniture and stamped not the standard hawkens
> trigger guard---or butt plate
>
> there are also several William Hawkens flint guns out there---father of
> jake and sam---all three of them worked at harpers ferry at one time or
> another around 1790 to 1805---thus the contours of the hawkens being
> similar to the 1803 harpers ferry gun with a english sporting rifle butt
> and trigger guard---
>
> Jake and sam combined the good features of the 1803 and the english
> sporting rifle and walla---the hawken rifle was made for the fur
> trade---only my impression but track the facts---you will come to that
> conclusion also---takes a lot of digging into a lot of documentation---
>
> you can see a lot of the hawkens rifles in John beards books.
>
> 1. the hawkens rifle then mountain man's choice--isbn 0-912420-00-6
> 2. fifteen years in the hawkens lode isbn 0-912420-01-4
> 3. the plains rifle by hanson isbn 0-088227-015x 1978
>
> the museum of the fur trade has a book or pamphlet out that shows
> pictures of a couple of them don't remember the name of the pamphlet or
> book got it around here somewhere but can lay my hand on it right
> now---hanson i believe owned one at one time but it was a but
> questionable that it was completely original---
>
> the museum in st louis has several hawkiens, and gemner guns--these came
> from the hawkens and gemner familys and from a owner that lived in or
> around the st louis area and from a man in texas who donated one to the
> museum ---
> there is also several hawkens in england---2 in privet collections and a
> couple in the museum in london--these are not shown in most of the
> writings on hawkens
>
> NOTE: if you are planning on trying to buy one get the history of the
> gun---most that are around now days can be traced back a ways--- that its
> a fact---not just that they appeared out of nowhere or out of someone's
> attic---most people that own them will not put a price on them---I know i
> would not---got a offer to sell my half stock several years ago and i
> laughed at them---(darn good offer) my statement was they aint eating
> anything and not costing me nothing believe i need to keep um. mine has
> a place if anything ever happens to me---
>
> there is several hawkens pistols out there also---most large caliber
> and used the same breach plug and tang as the rifle ---bent to form the
> pistol grip--ramrod was steel and had a swivel on it and was attached to
> the muzzle of the gun----good picture of this in beards book---
>
> if you have any questions about hawkins give me a shout offline---I aint
> no expert but have fondled a few of them in my
> time---again---beware---lots of fakes or copies out there---today a good
> custom hawkens with good barrel, lock and fine to extra fine wood will
> bring from $1500 to $2,500 from a known maker---Bob Reeves who is dead
> made several outstanding copies he lived in lancaster california---most
> of the people who have bob's guns wont part with them for the above
> price--pappy biggs has a match pair one in 50 and one in 54 back in the
> early 60's and he gave over $600 for them from bob at that time--so you
> could probably multiply todays prices times ten or more and you would
> probably come somewhere close to what an appraised value for one would be
> if it is original---haven't seen many hawkens with straight grain wood
> except for full stocks and a couple or three half stocks---some of them
> are walnut but most were hard maple---not soft or sugar maple---look
> inside the lock and under the butplate and you will get a good hint as to
> their originality---also check around the nipple area for burn out or
> age---if they have a patch box which a couple of them had look inside the
> patch box---cant duplicate the age in ther---takes many years to get that
> effect---hard to fake---also the but plates on the early hawkens were
> made from 2 pieces of metal and brazed together--if it's early gun and
> doesn't have a brazed butplate it's a copy---
>
> hope i have been some assistance to you even if i have meandered a
> lot----just think the original price was 25 to 50 dollars almost half a
> years wages at that time---small calibers were from 5 to 10 dollars
> according to some of the invoices that i have seen---some of the specials
> were even more---hoffman and cambell and another guy who worked in the
> hawkens shop did engravings on a couple of them---gemner also made and
> stamped a few hawkens---not all plains rifles---a couple of shotguns have
> been seen with a s hawkens stamp---but most died in the wool hawkens
> people thank they were faked at a later date to add value to a unmarked
A few years ago when Charley was still at the Museum of the Fur Trade, there was an old Hawken on display. My father 25 years ago gave Charley a box of Hawken parts (lock, butt plate, triggers & guard, most of the screws, etc.) mainly missing the wood and a barrel - breech plug. This was a collection of parts from 2 or 3 junkers he had collected over the years before the Baird books, and most people weren't into broken arms. Maybe that's what the gun is at the museum, built from those parts ???
Buck
On Thu, 01 April 1999, hawknest4@juno.com wrote:
>
> whose Hawken are you speaking of?????? I know most of them out
> there---I have originals myself---don steath has 2 kip rap has 3 and the
> hawkins shop in wa state has some but questionable as to being
> originals--ed white has one chuck pengry has one but it is not totally
> original--there is 5 or 6 in the museum in st louis there is one in
> helena montana (the briger gun) there is one that was owned by orval
> dunham family, there is the kit carson gun, there is a couple that was in
> the leonord collection, there is one owned by dawson, there is the madena
> rifle, there is one in the colorado historical museum, 2 in smithsonian,
> there is one or more in the lour collection, there is one owned by
> peterson, and about 5 or 6 more out there that are validated to be
> original---be wary---lot of fakes out ther---most people that own them if
> they are documented don't want to sell them and if something happens to
> them they are willed to someone or to a museum as such---there was also
> one that was in croften nebraska don't remember the owners name and one
> that was in california---andy fauntree i thank could expand on the one
> that was in california---I believe he held and fondled it one time or
> another don't know if it can be traced and validated as original---there
> is also one or more in the davis collection in clarimore oklahoma if i
> remember correctly---Ed white in alaska had some barrels that he found in
> alaska that were stamped hawkens---don't know what ever happened to
> them---said that were made into mining chizzles---or that is the way the
> story goes---might also check with don king ---he has held and fondled a
> few of them if i am not mistaken
>
> bill large had the original stamp at one time and believe he popped a
> couple of barrels with the original stamp---those were sent to the st
> louis area---?????? long story there for sure---watch out for cherry
> corners parts---or slant breaches that don't have the proper angle-or
> triggers with any markings on them--hawkens only used one specific angle
> for his slant breach's---hawkens also made a few squirrel rifles---don
> steith has one with brass furniture and stamped not the standard hawkens
> trigger guard---or butt plate
>
> there are also several William Hawkens flint guns out there---father of
> jake and sam---all three of them worked at harpers ferry at one time or
> another around 1790 to 1805---thus the contours of the hawkens being
> similar to the 1803 harpers ferry gun with a english sporting rifle butt
> and trigger guard---
>
> Jake and sam combined the good features of the 1803 and the english
> sporting rifle and walla---the hawken rifle was made for the fur
> trade---only my impression but track the facts---you will come to that
> conclusion also---takes a lot of digging into a lot of documentation---
>
> you can see a lot of the hawkens rifles in John beards books.
>
> 1. the hawkens rifle then mountain man's choice--isbn 0-912420-00-6
> 2. fifteen years in the hawkens lode isbn 0-912420-01-4
> 3. the plains rifle by hanson isbn 0-088227-015x 1978
>
> the museum of the fur trade has a book or pamphlet out that shows
> pictures of a couple of them don't remember the name of the pamphlet or
> book got it around here somewhere but can lay my hand on it right
> now---hanson i believe owned one at one time but it was a but
> questionable that it was completely original---
>
> the museum in st louis has several hawkiens, and gemner guns--these came
> from the hawkens and gemner familys and from a owner that lived in or
> around the st louis area and from a man in texas who donated one to the
> museum ---
> there is also several hawkens in england---2 in privet collections and a
> couple in the museum in london--these are not shown in most of the
> writings on hawkens
>
> NOTE: if you are planning on trying to buy one get the history of the
> gun---most that are around now days can be traced back a ways--- that its
> a fact---not just that they appeared out of nowhere or out of someone's
> attic---most people that own them will not put a price on them---I know i
> would not---got a offer to sell my half stock several years ago and i
> laughed at them---(darn good offer) my statement was they aint eating
> anything and not costing me nothing believe i need to keep um. mine has
> a place if anything ever happens to me---
>
> there is several hawkens pistols out there also---most large caliber
> and used the same breach plug and tang as the rifle ---bent to form the
> pistol grip--ramrod was steel and had a swivel on it and was attached to
> the muzzle of the gun----good picture of this in beards book---
>
> if you have any questions about hawkins give me a shout offline---I aint
> no expert but have fondled a few of them in my
> time---again---beware---lots of fakes or copies out there---today a good
> custom hawkens with good barrel, lock and fine to extra fine wood will
> bring from $1500 to $2,500 from a known maker---Bob Reeves who is dead
> made several outstanding copies he lived in lancaster california---most
> of the people who have bob's guns wont part with them for the above
> price--pappy biggs has a match pair one in 50 and one in 54 back in the
> early 60's and he gave over $600 for them from bob at that time--so you
> could probably multiply todays prices times ten or more and you would
> probably come somewhere close to what an appraised value for one would be
> if it is original---haven't seen many hawkens with straight grain wood
> except for full stocks and a couple or three half stocks---some of them
> are walnut but most were hard maple---not soft or sugar maple---look
> inside the lock and under the butplate and you will get a good hint as to
> their originality---also check around the nipple area for burn out or
> age---if they have a patch box which a couple of them had look inside the
> patch box---cant duplicate the age in ther---takes many years to get that
> effect---hard to fake---also the but plates on the early hawkens were
> made from 2 pieces of metal and brazed together--if it's early gun and
> doesn't have a brazed butplate it's a copy---
>
> hope i have been some assistance to you even if i have meandered a
> lot----just think the original price was 25 to 50 dollars almost half a
> years wages at that time---small calibers were from 5 to 10 dollars
> according to some of the invoices that i have seen---some of the specials
> were even more---hoffman and cambell and another guy who worked in the
> hawkens shop did engravings on a couple of them---gemner also made and
> stamped a few hawkens---not all plains rifles---a couple of shotguns have
> been seen with a s hawkens stamp---but most died in the wool hawkens
> people thank they were faked at a later date to add value to a unmarked
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Last of the Mountain Men
Date: 02 Apr 1999 08:59:56 -0800
Hart also made the national news when he held off the National Guard when they tried to throw him off federal ground where he lived. I read one report that said he had blown a hole in one of the rafts the NG was using, several years late I asked a friend in the guard if that was true. According to my friend a S/Major, he couldn't confirm whether it was or wasn't a correct statement.
I traded for a knife that was made by Sylvan Hart, it was crude like some of his pistols he had made, but still neat when you consider he had very little to work with, not like craftsman of today.
He was an interesting character and seems to have not backed down from much on anything he had made his mind up on.
Buck
On Fri, 02 April 1999, "northwoods" wrote:
>
> Just read a rather interesting book last week entitled "The Last of the
> Mountain Men". Many of you are probably familiar with this book, but for
> those who aren't it's about a gentleman named Sylvan Hart who after
> graduating college with a degree in engineering decided to
> "live like a mountain man" on "the River of No Return" in Idaho. He made,
> grew, mined, or hunted virtually everything he needed.
> He grew 20 different types of vegetables in his garden. He had a blacksmith
> shop that he made most of the tools he needed to manufacture an unbelievable
> assortment of goods. Of particular interest are the flintlock and percussion
> firearms he made.
> In his own words, the only items he brought back on his infrequent trips to
> civilization were, "tea, books, and gunpowder".
> The handwrought copperware that he manufactured is also very interesting.
> A "samovar"(for making tea), creamer, sugar bowls, ladles, pots, lamps, tea
> kettles, tea balls (he was a serious tea drinker indulging in dozens of
> different varieties) are just a few examples of these items.
> I enjoyed the book and I hope others do as well.
>
> From the northwoods,
>
> Tony Clark
>
>
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Last of the Mountain Men
Date: 02 Apr 1999 08:59:56 -0800
Hart also made the national news when he held off the National Guard when they tried to throw him off federal ground where he lived. I read one report that said he had blown a hole in one of the rafts the NG was using, several years late I asked a friend in the guard if that was true. According to my friend a S/Major, he couldn't confirm whether it was or wasn't a correct statement.
I traded for a knife that was made by Sylvan Hart, it was crude like some of his pistols he had made, but still neat when you consider he had very little to work with, not like craftsman of today.
He was an interesting character and seems to have not backed down from much on anything he had made his mind up on.
Buck
On Fri, 02 April 1999, "northwoods" wrote:
>
> Just read a rather interesting book last week entitled "The Last of the
> Mountain Men". Many of you are probably familiar with this book, but for
> those who aren't it's about a gentleman named Sylvan Hart who after
> graduating college with a degree in engineering decided to
> "live like a mountain man" on "the River of No Return" in Idaho. He made,
> grew, mined, or hunted virtually everything he needed.
> He grew 20 different types of vegetables in his garden. He had a blacksmith
> shop that he made most of the tools he needed to manufacture an unbelievable
> assortment of goods. Of particular interest are the flintlock and percussion
> firearms he made.
> In his own words, the only items he brought back on his infrequent trips to
> civilization were, "tea, books, and gunpowder".
> The handwrought copperware that he manufactured is also very interesting.
> A "samovar"(for making tea), creamer, sugar bowls, ladles, pots, lamps, tea
> kettles, tea balls (he was a serious tea drinker indulging in dozens of
> different varieties) are just a few examples of these items.
> I enjoyed the book and I hope others do as well.
>
> From the northwoods,
>
> Tony Clark
>
>
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Like I said these were parts and an easy 25 years ago, Hanson was real excited about the gift. Charley and my father had become friends and were always giving each other items that they were not, themselves interested in.
For example: Dad gave Charley the Hawken parts.
Several trigger guards
thimbles - entry pipes
double triggers
toe plates
butt plates
one complete lock
misc lock parts
sideplates
nose caps
misc screws
There was enought to build at least one gun maybe two, but no barrels, breech plugs or wood. These parts had been purchased on the east coast (I was told these were from old guns that were junk that Bannerman Brothers offered).
We were always getting boxes of gun parts from them, at the time several of my father's friends were involved with Valley Forge Historical Society and were rebuilding guns for that period in our basement, so screws were screws, ramrod tips, and many little pieces would work, as were other parts that could be fitted onto these weapons in getting them ready for the different displays. (a half dozen gentlemen had keys to our basement of gun parts,I would bring my friends in to see all the neat stuff, most everyone saw it as a bunch of junk other than my father
and his friends).
At one time my Dad had over 300 guns most were muzzleloaders all original, some were 75-80% guns and others were in poor to good condition, I got these at time of his passing and have now gotten down to 35-40 weapons in 85-90% NRA very good condition. Most are flint with 3-4 prec. cap guns and only 4 that are cart. rimfire or centerfire. No Hawken rifles as we are talking about, would consider an early Hawken like what the boys father would have made.
Sad but back in the 1940's and 50's old gun parts were considered junk by most, as I'm sure you know. Think the Hawken stuff was gone over many times and used as needed, what Hanson got was stuff that won't fit another weapon.
Now if you want to talk about tradeguns or Leman's stuff, I have handled and owned a few of them, now kick myself for selling a well used H.E.Leman trade rifle that ended up restored and is beautiful. Have lost track of it as it has passed through several hands in the last few years and the price just keeps doubling everytime.
Buck
I'm going to pass this on to the history list they may find this interesting and may learn something about keeping their eyes open at gun shows and gun shops. Old gun parts are more valuable now than ever before.
------- End of forwarded message -------
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You mentioning honey; we were on a month canoe trip and one day after fighting a strong wind and ruff water (making only 10-12 miles in about that many hours), we beached and were laying on the warm sand.
One of our members just got back from SE Asia and told us about honey being used to embomb bodies until they could be taken care of, said the honey was cheap - 25 cents a pound. Could be boiled down cleaned and reused ? Now this gentleman is Mr.Cheap by all means and anyone that knows "Rover" will agree.
We're laying there on the sand with our butts kicked from such a hard days paddling, nobody can even move to get water or anything else, after a period "Rover" reaches in his pouch and produces some hardtack and a small can of honey.
It took a few minutes to figure if we had been setup or not with his story, then decided, what the hell we need something to get us moving and ate the hardtack and honey. Within a half hour we were able to start moving and ate more honey !!
Buck
> by the way, honey and almost any natural oil is mixed it a pot in open
> wards in SE Asia (wanna guess where?) and put on wounds with a bandage
> to hold it in place. Changed daily, wound heals quickly and cleany, no
> debridement necassary. Hydrogen peroxide is decomposition product of
> homey, as well as other 'good things' that I can't name. Used as far
> back as ancient Egypt. Try it and be amazed too. Makes 'ring burns"
> much less scary. No deep scarring.
>
> Rock
> This list is great. What others are out here like this one? How many
> members does this list have?
>
>
>
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
You mentioning honey; we were on a month canoe trip and one day after fighting a strong wind and ruff water (making only 10-12 miles in about that many hours), we beached and were laying on the warm sand.
One of our members just got back from SE Asia and told us about honey being used to embomb bodies until they could be taken care of, said the honey was cheap - 25 cents a pound. Could be boiled down cleaned and reused ? Now this gentleman is Mr.Cheap by all means and anyone that knows "Rover" will agree.
We're laying there on the sand with our butts kicked from such a hard days paddling, nobody can even move to get water or anything else, after a period "Rover" reaches in his pouch and produces some hardtack and a small can of honey.
It took a few minutes to figure if we had been setup or not with his story, then decided, what the hell we need something to get us moving and ate the hardtack and honey. Within a half hour we were able to start moving and ate more honey !!
Buck
> by the way, honey and almost any natural oil is mixed it a pot in open
> wards in SE Asia (wanna guess where?) and put on wounds with a bandage
> to hold it in place. Changed daily, wound heals quickly and cleany, no
> debridement necassary. Hydrogen peroxide is decomposition product of
> homey, as well as other 'good things' that I can't name. Used as far
> back as ancient Egypt. Try it and be amazed too. Makes 'ring burns"
> much less scary. No deep scarring.
>
> Rock
> This list is great. What others are out here like this one? How many
> members does this list have?
>
>
>
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Honey will turn hard into a crystal form, but can be heated in it's container sitting in a pan of water, bringing to a boil then remove and let cool. It's now good as new in it's original state. Have done this several times on a can of honey that was 4-5 years old and have had no problems. Think how much honey has been trashed because it had turned to crystal !
Like Vic says I have been around bees and honey for a few years and have had no experience with it becoming rancid or molding. Many excellent health benefits from a natural product of nature.
Turtle
___________________
On Fri, 02 April 1999, Vic Barkin wrote:
>
> Honey, it is said NEVER goes rancid or molds!
>
> Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin
>
> AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party
> "Aux aliments du pays!"
>
> Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona
> Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998
>
>
>
>
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Honey will turn hard into a crystal form, but can be heated in it's container sitting in a pan of water, bringing to a boil then remove and let cool. It's now good as new in it's original state. Have done this several times on a can of honey that was 4-5 years old and have had no problems. Think how much honey has been trashed because it had turned to crystal !
Like Vic says I have been around bees and honey for a few years and have had no experience with it becoming rancid or molding. Many excellent health benefits from a natural product of nature.
Turtle
___________________
On Fri, 02 April 1999, Vic Barkin wrote:
>
> Honey, it is said NEVER goes rancid or molds!
>
> Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin
>
> AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party
> "Aux aliments du pays!"
>
> Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona
> Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998
>
>
>
>
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Military rifle (was Bayonetting a bear?)
Date: 03 Apr 1999 07:09:08 -0800
I have seen article in American Riflemen of "contract" rifles of the Amer. Rev. War and before showing lug arrangements on the end of barrels, a combination affair that included a sight.
Jim,
Buck Conner had a Mississippi Musket, early 1807-1812 peiod that had such an arrangement for a bayonet, funny he didn't mention it. He had it for sale at Raton along with a dozen other originals about 4 years ago, maybe someone on this hist_list was the lucky person that beat me out on getting it.
If Buck turns loose of any other originals let's hope he puts a list on this hist_list, he has sold some good ones over the years. I asked him once why he was doing such a house cleaning and he answered "if you clean a gun a day, with a little time to play with it, I only 43 days left in the year for other interests", I guess that says it all. Buck, if your listening and have some items to move let us know, or at least tell us what and where you'll be seting up the table.
Turtle
________________
>
> I was looking through the Dixie catalog and think the Harpers Ferry rifle
> would fit the bill -- Dixie makes a point that it was an issue rifle for the
> Lewis & Clark Expedition. Only thing is that the Dixie one does not take a
> bayonet. Anyone know if the originals did?
>
> Thanks,
> Jim
>
> > Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly had an article by Charley many years ago
> > that referred to many of the guns in the Fur Trade as being military, so
> your
> > guess to being military is probably close to being correct. There were many
> "
> > contract" rifles that used a bayonet attachment, if you had such a weapon
> and
> > had the bayonet, why not use it.
> >
> > Buck
>
>
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
> Honey will turn hard into a crystal form, but can be heated in it's container sitting in a pan of water, bringing to a boil then remove and let cool. It's now good as new in it's original state. Have done this several times on a can of honey that was 4-5 years old and have had no problems. Think how much honey has been trashed because it had turned to crystal !
>
> Like Vic says I have been around bees and honey for a few years and have had no experience with it becoming rancid or molding. Many excellent health benefits from a natural product of nature.
The reason it doesn't "go bad," is because of something the bees have in the
hive called propolis(sp). It's made from certain tree pollens. Anyway, it
kills bacteria.
Fred
--
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Military rifle (was Bayonetting a bear?)
Date: 03 Apr 1999 08:02:14 -0800
Turtle you horses butt,
I thought you went under at that big flood on the Mississippi a few years ago, still back east!
If you can quote me right, then don't quote me at all, you left out all the colorful lanuage. Anyway I could list anything in the future that I may want to move if the folks on this list think that's OK.
Oh, it only takes me 35-40 days for the cleanin' and playin' now. The wife says that's more time for lookin' and tradin', she finally gave up on the dealin'.
That's right on the lug on that musket, forgot about that old flinter, Turtle you should have spoke up, would have saved it for you.
Lanney you can't hurt this old fart, his head is like a good old flint - smooth, dull and hard.
Later
Buck
On Sat, 03 April 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
> I have seen article in American Riflemen of "contract" rifles of the Amer. Rev. War and before showing lug arrangements on the end of barrels, a combination affair that included a sight.
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Military rifle (was Bayonetting a bear?)
Date: 03 Apr 1999 08:02:14 -0800
Turtle you horses butt,
I thought you went under at that big flood on the Mississippi a few years ago, still back east!
If you can quote me right, then don't quote me at all, you left out all the colorful lanuage. Anyway I could list anything in the future that I may want to move if the folks on this list think that's OK.
Oh, it only takes me 35-40 days for the cleanin' and playin' now. The wife says that's more time for lookin' and tradin', she finally gave up on the dealin'.
That's right on the lug on that musket, forgot about that old flinter, Turtle you should have spoke up, would have saved it for you.
Lanney you can't hurt this old fart, his head is like a good old flint - smooth, dull and hard.
Later
Buck
On Sat, 03 April 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
> I have seen article in American Riflemen of "contract" rifles of the Amer. Rev. War and before showing lug arrangements on the end of barrels, a combination affair that included a sight.
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We have used a small paint can, quart size. You can buy new cans that can be fill with boiling water to clean then wash with hot soapy water.
I got lucky and found an old 1830's tin tobacco can that had a tight fitting lid, but only holds enought for a 2-3 day camp for several people. Of corse we you it in place of other sweeteners because of container and having no problems with ants or other bugs being attracted to it. On long 2-4 week outings we use the paint can that now has a pleasing dull tone now after years of service.
Have carried this in our "mess" on horseback, canoe and just moving from one spot to another with traveling and have had no spills in 25-30 years. Before this time period we tried a jar like you have mentioned and have had problems.
Buck
______________________
On Sun, 04 April 1999, Barbara Smith wrote:
>
> Hey, any great tips on how to transport honey? I put mine in a glass
> bottle with a cork, and no matter who nicely it's packed in my cassette,
> it always tips over, oozes past the cork, and gets on everything! It's
> become a huge joke with my friends. I hate to give up packing it, but
> even crystalized it makes a mess. Help! :-)
>
> YMDS
> -Tassee
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Last of the Mountain Men
Date: 05 Apr 1999 11:02:17 -0700
Hart had several cannons, have a friend dealing on a 1 1/8" bore cannon built by Sylvan Hart, according to the doc. he shot steel ball bearings in it. The same gentleman has 2 pistols built by Hart and a long knife.
> Also it was mentioned about a gun? cannon? he built to defend his cliff side domain, if memory is close I think it was a 1" dia. bore.
I have read the same articles, believe they were in the Backwoodsman magazine, and what you said about his housing is correct.
> It also mentioned that he entertain or tolerate rafters coming down his river when they would stop to visit.
> It also said he had separate ledge`s or rooms for his shop, living, sleeping,and cooking.
Later
Buck
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Take a good look at Caywood Arms, they make some really nice stuff and you can buy kits, guns in the white and finished. Your price range is what a gun in the white would run.
Turtle
____________
> >
> >Ok list here is the question I need help with. I now have $850 to spend on
> >a smooth Bore. What should I buy? I do about 8 rowdy's a year and dress in
> >the 1835 to 1840 era style dress. What should I buy that would be period
> >correct and were to get it? What about a Brown Bess Or Harper's Ferry. I
> >need Some help here because I would like to have it in less than 30 days.
> > Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Lone-Wolf
> >
> >
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When Charley Hanson was still at the museum in Chardon, we had this talk about rear sights many times. I was interested as I have several originals, one pre-1813 Sutherland tradegun has a rear sight that is part of the barrel, not dovetailed or sweat on. It is a piece of the barrel that has been turned up from the top flat of the barrel, cleaned up and notched.
According to Hanson he had never found any doc. that showed manufactures supplying or being ordered to supply rear sites, and felt that these rear sighted guns were done after leaving the factory by company gunsmiths, blacksmiths, etc. (company meaning HBC,NWC, etc. or a trader or supplier).
Over the years with all the baloney we have heard about this, many of the bigger events and associations are holding two matches, one with rear sights and one without rear sights. This maybe what you saw at the mentioned event.
With everything I have researched on my personal page about tradeguns, and I mean a pile of books, articles and letters from the Museum of the Fur Trade, nothing showed anyone ordering a rear sight on a tradegun or chief's gun. I afraid what Hanson said as well as other's more knowledgeable on the subject, rear sighted tradeguns was after market as we would say today.
Buck Conner
> I believe I recently saw some rear sighted shooting take place at an NMLRA event
> and was curious about whether the sights were just overlooked or whether there
> are some overzealous judgements being made. Are we certain that fixed rear
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Damn Buck, you told the boys about your years of research and your close friend Charles Hanson and his thoughts on the matter, but left off your web site.
Check it out boys, there's lots of work that went into this information.
http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html
Turtle
________________________
>
> Hello Camp,
>
> When Charley Hanson was still at the museum in Chardon, we had this talk about rear sights many times. I was interested as I have several originals, one pre-1813 Sutherland tradegun has a rear sight that is part of the barrel, not dovetailed or sweat on. It is a piece of the barrel that has been turned up from the top flat of the barrel, cleaned up and notched.
>
> According to Hanson he had never found any doc. that showed manufactures supplying or being ordered to supply rear sites, and felt that these rear sighted guns were done after leaving the factory by company gunsmiths, blacksmiths, etc. (company meaning HBC,NWC, etc. or a trader or supplier).
>
> Over the years with all the baloney we have heard about this, many of the bigger events and associations are holding two matches, one with rear sights and one without rear sights. This maybe what you saw at the mentioned event.
>
> With everything I have researched on my personal page about tradeguns, and I mean a pile of books, articles and letters from the Museum of the Fur Trade, nothing showed anyone ordering a rear sight on a tradegun or chief's gun. I afraid what Hanson said as well as other's more knowledgeable on the subject, rear sighted tradeguns was after market as we would say today.
>
> Buck Conner
>
> > I believe I recently saw some rear sighted shooting take place at an NMLRA event
> > and was curious about whether the sights were just overlooked or whether there
> > are some overzealous judgements being made. Are we certain that fixed rear
>
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For shame, for shame, you can't swell that head with nice remarks, a nailed butt plate from a tradegun would work - only kidding Buck, you did a great job on that site.
Powderhawk
>
> Turtle... Yer gonna swell his head...
>
> D
>
> PS..The site Has entertained me for many an hour.. He IS right....
Many of us from Colorado would make yearly trips to the Museum Of the Fur Trade to talk to Mr. Hanson (I made a dozen trips while living in Colorado and half of them with Mr. Conner and crew),
Buck would call Charley and he would get rooms at the Best Western for the whole group. Mr. & Mrs. Hanson would go to dinner on us, what nice people.
Like Buck and Mr. Webb have stated, I have heard Mr. Hanson refer to the rear sight question as after market additions. Buck bought 2 barrels from junk tradeguns that could not be repaired, one with the blacksmith work and the other a smooth standard un-sighted barrel. I ask what he planned to do with them as they were not cheap. He wanted them for talks on tradeguns to different groups, at the time he would do men's clubs, historical society meetings, etc. Buck if you read this do you still have the barrels, if so put them on this hist_list. Would be a good example of what we are talking about.
Turtle
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I traded the barrels to Charley Hanson about two years before he died for some other fur trade items that he had extra on, at the museum. Sorry, but if you look in some of the Quarterlies there are pictures of "after market rear sights" and standard smooth flats at the breech (no sights). Good project for one of you to look up and put on the net.
I've been so busy with filling orders for heirloom seeds this late in the year, myself and the suppliers have never seen such a year for the old seeds. Maybe they're loaden them in them smoothbores and plantin' munches of em at one time !
Buck Conner
dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc.
________________
bought 2 barrels from junk tradeguns that could not be repaired, one with the blacksmith work and the other a smooth standard un-sighted barrel.
do you still have the barrels, if so put them on this hist_list. Would be a good example of what we are talking about.
http://www.uswestmail.net
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I got issues #1 to the last ones of Buckskin Report and Black Powder Cart and American Rendezvous, all gone but the memories.
What ever happened to John Baird (BSR & BPC), Dick Tetter (AR) and Dick House (wrote for all three), saw House and Tetter names a while back ?
I guess we remember some good doin' and old friends, the reason for hanging on to these, as well as good references. I think the gray beards, hair or lack of it was from to many affairs with the above mentioned.
Buck
Colorado Territory
________________
On Sun, 11 April 1999, Linda Holley wrote:
>
> Since I also have the "old editions", does that make me an old lady fart??
> And I became "chemically" dependent on the hair many years ago.
>
> Linda Holley
>
> John Hunt wrote:
>
> > Buck
> > I see I`m not the only one who has kept the old buckskin and black powder reports, and some blackpowder cartridge reports. They
> > come in handy at times for reference.
> >
> > jhunt1@one.net PS. With the saving of these books, does that make us gray beards????? "old farts????? "er what?????
> >
> > John (BIG JOHN) Hunt
> > Longhunter
> > Mountainman
> > southwest Ohio
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Not only reading books, but there are lots of video's available that cover anything from tracking to cleaning.
You may want to team up with someone from a local muzzleloading club that hunts, check with Fish & Game - they may have someone they work with through Hunter Safety Program or even someone on this list that's in your area.
Books and videos are good, but having an experienced person to help show you the ropes is hard to beat. What area are you wanting to hunt and what area are you living in ?
Over the years several of us have met some sportsmen that have turned out to be a credit to the modern muzzleloading crowd. I owned a muzzleloading store in northern Colorado (Buckhorn Rendezvous) with access to 300 acres. When we sold a muzzleloader to new shooters, one of us from the store would spend a few hours every Sat getting these customers comfortable with safety, loading, clearing and cleaning their weapons.
We have had customers show up with gifts as well as pictures of their first game, that was as exciting as having hunted the animals ourselves. The best was a doctor from the local hospital driving in with his wife's custom van, in the back was a good 6 X 6 bull elk, wrapped in plastic - what a site.
Buck Conner
Colorado Territory
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I have to agree a 100% with what Buck has stated about books, videos, and local F&G Dept. help, again I agree that the skills learned from an experienced person would be the most helpful, (go with someone that has a good track record - gets game).
As far as what Buck wrote about his old store and customer relationships in the art of learning about a muzzleloader, there has been no better learning experience. They use to have a "picture wall" with customers, their guns and their gotten game- the 6X6 bull was a real good one. It was a sad day in northern CO when Buck closed that operation after so many fine years of customer service.
I miss the good old days in Colorado and visiting the boys at Buckhorn Rendezvous - waugh ..
Turtle
____________________
> Not only reading books, but there are lots of video's available that cover anything from tracking to cleaning.
>
> You may want to team up with someone from a local muzzleloading club that hunts, check with Fish & Game - they may have someone they work with through Hunter Safety Program or even someone on this list that's in your area.
>
> Books and videos are good, but having an experienced person to help show you the ropes is hard to beat. What area are you wanting to hunt and what area are you living in ?
>
> Over the years several of us have met some sportsmen that have turned out to be a credit to the modern muzzleloading crowd. I owned a muzzleloading store in northern Colorado (Buckhorn Rendezvous) with access to 300 acres. When we sold a muzzleloader to new shooters, one of us from the store would spend a few hours every Sat getting these customers comfortable with safety, loading, clearing and cleaning their weapons.
>
> We have had customers show up with gifts as well as pictures of their first game, that was as exciting as having hunted the animals ourselves. The best was a doctor from the local hospital driving in with his wife's custom van, in the back was a good 6 X 6 bull elk, wrapped in plastic - what a site.
>
> Buck Conner
> Colorado Territory
>
>
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
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With all the baloney aside, and trying to help this young man in gaining experience, please consider what Hawk, Buck and yours truly have suggested: books, videos and proven successful experienced muzzleloading hunters. These steps are a sure fired way to learn and be successful at the old art of supplying your needs.
Good luck in your search.
Turtle
PA Colonies
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books, videos and proven successful experienced muzzleloading hunters. These steps are a sure fired way to learn and be successful at the old art of supplying your needs.
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> Books and videos are good, but having an experienced person to help show you the ropes is hard to beat. What area are you wanting to hunt and what area are you living in ?
>
Thanks everyone for the good advise. I live in Brownsville California, in the Sierra foothills, about two hours drive northeast of Sacramento. As far as were I want to hunt, anywhere in the Sierras north of Yosemite. If there is anyone on the list in my area that does'nt mind teaching this here pilgrim, please let me know.
> Books and videos are good, but having an experienced person to help show you the ropes is hard to beat. What area are you wanting to hunt and what area are you living in ?
>
Thanks everyone for the good advise. I live in Brownsville California, in the Sierra foothills, about two hours drive northeast of Sacramento. As far as were I want to hunt, anywhere in the Sierras north of Yosemite. If there is anyone on the list in my area that does'nt mind teaching this here pilgrim, please let me know.
Sounds like some of you boys may have just found a camp hand and new gut man for cleanup. I can remember those days when first getting started, along with many chores that didn't make sense at the time but turned out to be good sound advice down the road, good luck Mick Sweeney.
Give it your best shot at learning a number of new skills.
Buck
Colorado Territory
Come-on lets hear from some of you boys in his neck of the woods, we were all in his spot at one time on this journey.
______________________
> > Books and videos are good, but having an experienced person to help show you the ropes is hard to beat. What area are you wanting to hunt and what area are you living in ?
> >
>
> Thanks everyone for the good advise. I live in Brownsville California, in the Sierra foothills, about two hours drive northeast of Sacramento. As far as were I want to hunt, anywhere in the Sierras north of Yosemite. If there is anyone on the list in my area that does'nt mind teaching this here pilgrim, please let me know.
>
> Mick Sweeney
> P.O. Box 121
> Brownsville, Ca. 95919
> Angus@lostsierra.net
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Buck, your still the old mother hen you were 15 years ago when I would listen to you.
I've heard him get more greenhorn's started this way, he was nice in how he referred to your chores, in the service you were referred to as a "grunt".
You'll learn Mick, that one learns from one's mistakes, but you do learn.
Turtle
PA Colony
_______________
> Sounds like some of you boys may have just found a camp hand and new gut man for cleanup. I can remember those days when first getting started, along with many chores that didn't make sense at the time but turned out to be good sound advice down the road, good luck Mick Sweeney.
> > Mick Sweeney
> > P.O. Box 121
> > Brownsville, Ca. 95919
> > Angus@lostsierra.net
>
>
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
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Give me some help with this paraplegia -turtle, he's been on my back for a week, run over from OH to PA and straighten him out. He once told me "flush your toilets daily, Ohio needs the drinkin' water".
Sorry folks, just had to say something about some peoples kids. Let's get back to history questions.
Buck Conner
Colorado Territory
>
> Buck, your still the old mother hen you were 15 years ago when I would listen to you.
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After you scare him a little, there won't be much for bait, he's like some of them folks from another state; how's that go - feed em exlax and bury them in a shoe box !!!
Buck
>
> Buck,
> My pleasure, once I take delivery on the Jaeger, just cause I doon wannna
> rust my sword on watered down Pa. blood.. I'll go over and give him a talkin
> to.. Gotta get me shots updated though... Ya think he'd make decent b'ar
Yes, Lewis & Clark had an air rifle with them that wowed the local Native Americans.
Air guns were around long before this period, and I remember reading some of the best ones came from Germany, of pretty good caliber to, there was a friend of Ben Franklin's that would shoot in his garden and Jefferson mentions one in his garden book used for rodents, that would be F&I War period to Rev. War period. I would think they would be earlier than that in Europe, wasn't it at Waterloo that anyone with an air rifle or crossbow was killed on site ? These Generals didn't like silent weapons that could be pointed at them.
I'm sure someone has better information than what I remember from an article years ago in the American Rifleman. You have anything Hawk !
Buck Conner
Colorado Territory
>
> Don't know what all this fartten has to do with history but hears a
> real question.
> It is my understanding that Leis and clark carried Airguns on their
> voyage. I got into a disscussion about this and was told that daisy was
> the oldest airgun maker and they started in 1889? So who made the
> airguns for Lewis & Clark?
> Rick
>
> --- sean <sean@peganet.com> wrote:
> > Now I have known Linda for quite a spell, and never
> > have I know her to be
> > uncouth as to "fluff" in public. She do get a might
> > boistrous at times, and
> > even been known to get down right crude with the
I talked to a gentleman at Beeman Prec. Air Rifles, they have some Italian and German Air Rifles that date in the 1770-1870 range. He said there was a German air rifle in pieces at Smithsonian that had a 1768 date, one of a kind, and probably not produced in any large numbers.
I have kicked myself for years over an 1850's air rifle that Muley Carr had at the Colorado Antique Gun Collectors Show back in the 70's. Looked like a fine sporting rifle, precussion half stock, with a brass 4-5 inch ball in front of the trigger guard that was the air chamber. It was in NRA Good condition, and best part it was a 38 cal. Muley wanted cash, $2500 and wouldn't take a trade, before I could sell what I had at the show, he sold the air rifle.
Would still like to have one, or if could figure out a system with parts and have one built. Any ideas on this.
Buck
_________________________________
> On 14 Apr 1999 18:42:14 -0700 <buck.conner@uswestmail.net> writes:
> >Yes, Lewis & Clark had an air rifle with them that wowed the local
> >Native Americans.
> >
> >Air guns were around long before this period, and I remember reading
> >some of the best ones came from Germany,
>
> air guns have been around since the late 1700 and were invented in
> germany if my memory serves me well. cant find my book on them so will
> have to quote info from memory--- looked thru some of my books but didnt
> find what i wanted---louis and clark took a air gun on their trip and to
> a pump up this airgun --- it wad pumped up with a lever and the butt
> stock was the air chamber---if you go to smithsonian there is one of the
> same models as louis and clark took with them if i am not wrong it is
> dated 1780 or around that time period---it was by a german maker and
> shot lead bb's size shot but they made them that went up to about 60 gage
> or around 30 something caliber if i am not mistaken-.
>
> american rifleman did a article on the airguns and dated them and all
> several years ago---so if you do some digging you will find out about
> them the one that they discuss is the one in smithsonian. I believe the
> davis museum in clarimore okla had one also that is very early but later
> than the louis and clark gun---very interesting piece and made later than
> the one in smithsonian---
>
> best date i can put on them off my head is about 1780. plus or minus 10
> years. all the early air guns were made in germany and i know of only 2
> makers and if i remember correctly they lived quite close to each other
> in their villages so it leads me to thank that they probly were either
> kin to each other or had a friendly match going with each other---they
> were highly accurate up to about 50 yds most were smooth bore and the
> shot or ball dia was almost bore dia and was drop shot ---I usto own a
> gameing rifle that shot bb's but it was powered by a precussion cap---I
> would patch the lead bb's with paper towels and could shoot half way thru
> a 1" pine board across the living roon---got into a lot of trouble with
> it with the better half---it was stolen when i got broken into---it was
> made by the german maker with the same name as the air rifles in
> smithsonian---I thank they made a lot of these type of guns---called them
> saloon guns for the guys in the bars to use to test their marksmanship
> skills---
>
> bout all I can remember --best advice is go to the nra and look thru
> their back issues and you will find the smithsonian gun which is the same
Have you ever considered trying to build an early "wind gun" ?? If you decided to try such a thing let me know, would be interested in one in the "white" in a 32 to 36 cal. later
Nobody would be safe in bending over to tend the fire with you and an air rifle, the sling shot was bad enought. DO NOT REPLY to his request Mr. Lienemann, please trash this man's request. Thank you
Turtle
I move slow enough without having to look over my shoulder.
_____________________________
> Bob,
> Have you ever considered trying to build an early "wind gun" ?? If you decided to try such a thing let me know, would be interested in one in the "white" in a 32 to 36 cal. later
#1 -The information on your findings is interesting on the word "PICHOU", I'm sure others would be interested also and with your permission I will submit it again.
#2 -I will try and find what I can in the imformation used for web site on tradeguns and smoothbores at:
http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html
and with your permission I will submit your question and with any luck we'll see what these folks come up with.
Thanks for trying to reach me again.
Buck Conner
Colorado Territory
________________________________________
> Tried to send this earlier it came back "nrt" won't work for "net" Oh
> Well!! Know your buisy but will like to know if it made it this time!!
>
> > <buck.conner@uswestmail.nrt>:
> > Sorry, I couldn't find any host named
> > uswestmail.nrt. (#5.1.2)
> >
> > <owner-hist-text@list.xmission.com>:
> > Sorry, I couldn't find any host named
> > list.xmission.com. (#5.1.2)
________________________________________
> > --- Original message follows.
#1 -Some time ago I sent a question "What is a Pinchon"? to the list. I thought I might share what I found.The Editor of Outdoor Oklahoma, In a "Letter to the Editor" colum responded "it might a misspelled word for mink( Vison) in the May--June- 1998 issue." However , about the same time. My aunt from La., a true cajun, found in a Dictionary Of The Cajun Language by Rev.Msgr.Jules O. Daigle,M.A., S.T.L.: list the word "PICHOU" n.m. Bobcat,Lynz. I want to think missed spelled bobcat rather than mink. I think they were pressing the hides into bundles of like size and fox and bobcat would be about the same. The article refered to (97 "Pinchon" and fox).
#2 -Ok. Next question! If we may "clear the air"(old farts). Can any one help me find the "contract" by the goverenment and Henry Deringer To supply 1000 rifles(500 Flinters & 500 cappers) to be given to the Creek Indians during their removal west? My friend, Douglas Jones AMM,thinks it should have been about 1830. I found in A Treaty Of Washington Mar.24, 1832 Article XIII. (There shall also be given to each emigrating warrior a rifle,molds,wiper and ammunition and to each family one blanket.)Generous wern't they!
Thanks G.R.N.
George R. Noe
< gnoe39@yahoo.com >
1005 W.Donkey Ln.
Marlow Ok. 73055
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Remember the time at Ft. deChartre in ILL and the Scotsman in the kilt splitting firewood, everytime he hit that block of wood his kilt ended up on his back and proved "nothing was worn under them".
Well Buck and his damn homemade sling shot couldn't pass on this, spectators (100 or so) watching as the Scotsman would bend over in his swing and come to attention when hit with a stinging pebble from the sleeping gentleman near by. The crowd got a charge out of this Scotsman bending over, getting hit and standing straight looking around for the guilty party, great fun for everyone but the Scot. An air rifle would be terrible in our friend's hands, Mr. L. as requested don't call our friend.
Powder Hawk
Iowa
> On Sat, 17 April 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> Damn Buck, now an air rifle !!!!
> Nobody would be safe in bending over to tend the fire with you and an air rifle, the sling shot was bad enought. DO NOT REPLY to his request Mr. Lienemann, please trash this man's request. Thank you
>
> Turtle
> I move slow enough without having to look over my shoulder.
> _____________________________
> > Bob,
> > Have you ever considered trying to build an early "wind gun" ?? If you decided to try such a thing let me know, would be interested in one in the "white" in a 32 to 36 cal. later
In reply to your question on the Amish work pants sold by several shops around the country.
>On Wed, 21 April 1999, Laurel huber wrote:
>I own a pair of Amish pants made out of denim that I use for >everyday knock-about use. They are Broad Fall and have metal rivet >buttons.
These pants are suited for Civil War and later into the westered movement, to late for fur trade. In Hanson's sketch books you'll see drop fronts, but they have a narrow drop, Buck Conner has an original pair of breeches that belonged to Marino Medina that are drop front and Hanson figured they were late 1840's to 1860's - narrow drop front.
>Besides the buttons and fabric, I would not use them for Fur Trade
>re-enactment because the most often shown examples of trousers I have
>seen of that period have been Narrow Fall. You start seeing Broad >Falls show up in George Bingham paintings from the late 1840s to the >1850s,Riverboat period.
I am Amish and my relations came here in the mid 1700's to work as farmers to supply the demands of Phila. and other cities on the east coast. We can date our relations back over 300 years, so I don't understand what you are saying. If working and supplying a demand is not active then what is ! Turtle.
>The mid to late 1800s is about the time the Amish started being >active. Maybe the style was available earlier but it couldn't have >been as common. Anyone else on the list have documentation on the >wide spread appearance of the Broad Fall style?
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Turtle, sounds like this lady hit a nerve about Amish being around a short time.
I'm doing some research on "Folk Medicine" for the next catalog and the Amish, and Mennonites (both spin-offs of the PA Dutch or sometimes called PA Germans)keep popping up with "cures" that date back well into the 1760's. Not sure when the groups went different ways, but seems to be in the early 1800's, that some members were unhappy with some teachings and set up their own churches, schools and settlements in NY, PA, OH and points west.
One of the authors that writes about early life in the Amish settlements is John Hostetler, well know prof from Temple Univ., is he related - knowing that's your mother's maiden name !
When I saw the posting about the Amish drop fall pants, "I thought you would make note of it, say not".
I looked in Lehman's (Amish) catalog for information on clothing - nothing, next figured probably the best place would be "Rural Pennsylvania Clothing" by Ellen J. Gehret. On page 133 he shows breeches very similar to Marino Medina's with a small drop fall front and draw string adjustable panel in the back. Another pair on page 148 of a different material and wider drop front are still early styles. Now on page 150 you see a pair like mentioned in this posting, Gehert says they are of the 19th century - doesn't say early or late.
I would wager that they are after the Civil War, as most of the stuff in the location of these pants,(Chester County Historical Society) is 1850's and later. The reason I say that is I knew several families that gave large amounts of household goods, clothing, etc. to this association back in the 1950's, when I was still living in Chester County, PA. They had Civil War related items and later, Valley Forge under the care of Vernon Bigsby had all the pre Rev. War to the 1840's stuff sewed up in that museum.
Like you stated these are a little late for the fur trade, sorry to make this so long, wanted to let this gentleam know we have done some research on these pants.
Buck Conner
dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile
__________________________
>On Fri, 23 April 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> In reply to your question on the Amish work pants sold by several shops around the country.
>
> >On Wed, 21 April 1999, Laurel huber wrote:
> >I own a pair of Amish pants made out of denim that I use for >everyday knock-about use. They are Broad Fall and have metal rivet >buttons.
>
> These pants are suited for Civil War and later into the westered movement, to late for fur trade. In Hanson's sketch books you'll see drop fronts, but they have a narrow drop, Buck Conner has an original pair of breeches that belonged to Marino Medina that are drop front and Hanson figured they were late 1840's to 1860's - narrow drop front.
>
> >Besides the buttons and fabric, I would not use them for Fur Trade
> >re-enactment because the most often shown examples of trousers I have
> >seen of that period have been Narrow Fall. You start seeing Broad >Falls show up in George Bingham paintings from the late 1840s to the >1850s,Riverboat period.
>
> I am Amish and my relations came here in the mid 1700's to work as farmers to supply the demands of Phila. and other cities on the east coast. We can date our relations back over 300 years, so I don't understand what you are saying. If working and supplying a demand is not active then what is ! Turtle.
>
> >The mid to late 1800s is about the time the Amish started being >active. Maybe the style was available earlier but it couldn't have >been as common. Anyone else on the list have documentation on the >wide spread appearance of the Broad Fall style?
>
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Hey, as I recall you've got some Pennsylvania Dutch or Amish in your background, I was waiting for you to stand up and be heard.
Are you near the Littleton school that we are hearing about on the news, that's terrible what has happened to those kids.
What the hell were the families doing when these kids are gathering up all the stuff for a young war, got their head in the sand or what ???
Scary thing is it could happen anywhere with some of these kids today, hell when we grew up all we had to do was wait for the draft, and you would get all the action we wanted with Vietnam no matter what our temper was.
Turtle.
>On Fri, 23 April 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote:
> Hello Camp,
>
> Turtle, sounds like this lady hit a nerve about Amish being around a short time.
>
> I'm doing some research on "Folk Medicine" for the next catalog and the Amish, and Mennonites (both spin-offs of the PA Dutch or sometimes called PA Germans)keep popping up with "cures" that date back well into the 1760's. Not sure when the groups went different ways, but seems to be in the early 1800's, that some members were unhappy with some teachings and set up their own churches, schools and settlements in NY, PA, OH and points west.
>
> One of the authors that writes about early life in the Amish settlements is John Hostetler, well know prof from Temple Univ., is he related - knowing that's your mother's maiden name !
>
> When I saw the posting about the Amish drop fall pants, "I thought you would make note of it, say not".
>
> I looked in Lehman's (Amish) catalog for information on clothing - nothing, next figured probably the best place would be "Rural Pennsylvania Clothing" by Ellen J. Gehret. On page 133 he shows breeches very similar to Marino Medina's with a small drop fall front and draw string adjustable panel in the back. Another pair on page 148 of a different material and wider drop front are still early styles. Now on page 150 you see a pair like mentioned in this posting, Gehert says they are of the 19th century - doesn't say early or late.
>
> I would wager that they are after the Civil War, as most of the stuff in the location of these pants,(Chester County Historical Society) is 1850's and later. The reason I say that is I knew several families that gave large amounts of household goods, clothing, etc. to this association back in the 1950's, when I was still living in Chester County, PA. They had Civil War related items and later, Valley Forge under the care of Vernon Bigsby had all the pre Rev. War to the 1840's stuff sewed up in that museum.
>
> Like you stated these are a little late for the fur trade, sorry to make this so long, wanted to let this gentleam know we have done some research on these pants.
>
> Buck Conner
> dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile
> __________________________
> >On Fri, 23 April 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
> >
> > In reply to your question on the Amish work pants sold by several shops around the country.
> >
> > >On Wed, 21 April 1999, Laurel huber wrote:
> > >I own a pair of Amish pants made out of denim that I use for >everyday knock-about use. They are Broad Fall and have metal rivet >buttons.
> >
> > These pants are suited for Civil War and later into the westered movement, to late for fur trade. In Hanson's sketch books you'll see drop fronts, but they have a narrow drop, Buck Conner has an original pair of breeches that belonged to Marino Medina that are drop front and Hanson figured they were late 1840's to 1860's - narrow drop front.
> >
> > >Besides the buttons and fabric, I would not use them for Fur Trade
> > >re-enactment because the most often shown examples of trousers I have
> > >seen of that period have been Narrow Fall. You start seeing Broad >Falls show up in George Bingham paintings from the late 1840s to the >1850s,Riverboat period.
> >
> > I am Amish and my relations came here in the mid 1700's to work as farmers to supply the demands of Phila. and other cities on the east coast. We can date our relations back over 300 years, so I don't understand what you are saying. If working and supplying a demand is not active then what is ! Turtle.
> >
> > >The mid to late 1800s is about the time the Amish started being >active. Maybe the style was available earlier but it couldn't have >been as common. Anyone else on the list have documentation on the >wide spread appearance of the Broad Fall style?
> >
>
>
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
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The next issue of T&LR will have a documented pair of drop front breeches that are believed to have belonged to Marino Medina that were commerically made in the 1850's to 1860's, manufactured in Calif. and were very popular according to Charles E. Hanson, Jr. They were made of a fine leather, brass stud style buttons sewed on - mostly machine sewed with fine hand work on the waist band. Charley had a jacket that was a match to these breeches, Mrs. E. Gates that wrote the book on Medina also had a pair of these breeches that had belong to a gentleman from Loveland around the same period. She had a picture of Louie Papa wearing the pair I have around the turn of the century in a parade in Ft. Collins CO.
We'renot talking military Don, the reference is to the drop front pants that the Amish and several other "sexes" or "clans" of common people have been wearing for decades and still wear today. I know what you mean by the military fashion as a general rule of thumb, but like Medina's and others it doesn't alway quite fit.
Take a look at the book I referred to and that whole section on pants.
Buck
>On Fri, 23 April 1999, Phyllis and Don Keas wrote:
>
> Reply to: Re: MtMan-List: twill pants
> Buck - I am afraid I am going to have to disagree with you gentlemen on the drop front trousers. From everything I have read, drop front trousers switched to button front flys starting about 1841. After that time, the only drop front pants worn were by the military(always a day late & dollar short). My wife and I do quite a bit of research on clothing, have several books on clothing, but certainly don't know it all. This is just what we have found. Don Keas
>
>
> buck.conner wrote:
> >Hello Camp,
> >
> >Turtle, sounds like this lady hit a nerve about Amish being around a short time.
> >
> >I'm doing some research on "Folk Medicine" for the next catalog and the >Amish, and Mennonites (both spin-offs of the PA Dutch or sometimes called PA >Germans)keep popping up with "cures" that date back well into the 1760's. Not sure when >the groups went different ways, but seems to be in the early 1800's, that some >members were unhappy with some teachings and set up their own churches, schools and >settlements in NY, PA, OH and points west.
> >
> >One of the authors that writes about early life in the Amish settlements is >John Hostetler, well know prof from Temple Univ., is he related - knowing that's >your mother's maiden name !
> >
> >When I saw the posting about the Amish drop fall pants, "I thought you >would make note of it, say not".
> >
> >I looked in Lehman's (Amish) catalog for information on clothing - nothing, >next figured probably the best place would be "Rural Pennsylvania Clothing" by >Ellen J. Gehret. On page 133 he shows breeches very similar to Marino Medina's >with a small drop fall front and draw string adjustable panel in the back. Another >pair on page 148 of a different material and wider drop front are still early >styles. Now on page 150 you see a pair like mentioned in this posting, Gehert says >they are of the 19th century - doesn't say early or late.
> >
> >I would wager that they are after the Civil War, as most of the stuff in >the location of these pants,(Chester County Historical Society) is 1850's and >later. The reason I say that is I knew several families that gave large amounts of >household goods, clothing, etc. to this association back in the 1950's, when I was >still living in Chester County, PA. They had Civil War related items and later, >Valley Forge under the care of Vernon Bigsby had all the pre Rev. War to the 1840's >stuff sewed up in that museum..
> >
> >Like you stated these are a little late for the fur trade, sorry to make >this so long, wanted to let this gentleam know we have done some research on these >pants.
> >
> >Buck Conner
> >dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile
> >__________________________
> >>On Fri, 23 April 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
> >> >> In reply to your question on the Amish work pants sold by several shops >around the country.
> >> >I own a pair of Amish pants made out of denim that I use for >everyday >knock-about use. They are Broad Fall and have metal rivet >buttons.
> >> >> These pants are suited for Civil War and later into the westered >movement, to late for fur trade. In Hanson's sketch books you'll see drop fronts, but >they have a narrow drop, Buck Conner has an original pair of breeches that belonged >to Marino Medina that are drop front and Hanson figured they were late 1840's to >1860's - narrow drop front.
> >> >> >Besides the buttons and fabric, I would not use them for Fur Trade
> >> >re-enactment because the most often shown examples of trousers I have
> >> >seen of that period have been Narrow Fall. You start seeing Broad >>Falls show up in George Bingham paintings from the late 1840s to the >1850s,Riverboat >period.
> >> >> I am Amish and my relations came here in the mid 1700's to work as >farmers to supply the demands of Phila. and other cities on the east coast. We can date >our relations back over 300 years, so I don't understand what you are saying. If >working and supplying a demand is not active then what is ! Turtle.
> >> >> >The mid to late 1800s is about the time the Amish started being >active. >Maybe the style was available earlier but it couldn't have >been as common. >Anyone else on the list have documentation on the >wide spread appearance of the >Broad Fall style?
> >> >
> >
> >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
> >
> >
> >
> >RFC822 header
> >-----------------------------------
> >
> > Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with ESMTP
Yes, on the second question, used to live within a few blocks of that school and have seen some of the kids that lost their lives, but really didn't know them.
The jerks that did the deed live in a new development that went up after I moved, so don't know them or their families. But have seen many kids with the black trenchcoats at the mall up the street - seems to be a popular dress item around here for a period.
This hit at the worst time, we were about to get some changes for gun control in favor of lightening some of the pressure of some laws, but that went out the window after last Tuesday.
Every channel for local TV is about this and gun control, what about kid control or their mother and father control. I quess it's like hearing what "Slick Willy" did, being out of control, of course he didn't kill anyone that they can prove.
Buck
>On Fri, 23 April 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> Hey, as I recall you've got some Pennsylvania Dutch or Amish in your background, I was waiting for you to stand up and be heard.
> Are you near the Littleton school that we are hearing about on the news, that's terrible what has happened to those kids.
> What the hell were the families doing when these kids are gathering up all the stuff for a young war, got their head in the sand or what ???
> Scary thing is it could happen anywhere with some of these kids today, hell when we grew up all we had to do was wait for the draft, and you would get all the action we wanted with Vietnam no matter what our temper was.
> Turtle.
>
> >On Fri, 23 April 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote:
> > Hello Camp,
> >
> > Turtle, sounds like this lady hit a nerve about Amish being around a short time.
> >
> > I'm doing some research on "Folk Medicine" for the next catalog and the Amish, and Mennonites (both spin-offs of the PA Dutch or sometimes called PA Germans)keep popping up with "cures" that date back well into the 1760's. Not sure when the groups went different ways, but seems to be in the early 1800's, that some members were unhappy with some teachings and set up their own churches, schools and settlements in NY, PA, OH and points west.
> >
> > One of the authors that writes about early life in the Amish settlements is John Hostetler, well know prof from Temple Univ., is he related - knowing that's your mother's maiden name !
> >
> > When I saw the posting about the Amish drop fall pants, "I thought you would make note of it, say not".
> >
> > I looked in Lehman's (Amish) catalog for information on clothing - nothing, next figured probably the best place would be "Rural Pennsylvania Clothing" by Ellen J. Gehret. On page 133 he shows breeches very similar to Marino Medina's with a small drop fall front and draw string adjustable panel in the back. Another pair on page 148 of a different material and wider drop front are still early styles. Now on page 150 you see a pair like mentioned in this posting, Gehert says they are of the 19th century - doesn't say early or late.
> >
> > I would wager that they are after the Civil War, as most of the stuff in the location of these pants,(Chester County Historical Society) is 1850's and later. The reason I say that is I knew several families that gave large amounts of household goods, clothing, etc. to this association back in the 1950's, when I was still living in Chester County, PA. They had Civil War related items and later, Valley Forge under the care of Vernon Bigsby had all the pre Rev. War to the 1840's stuff sewed up in that museum.
> >
> > Like you stated these are a little late for the fur trade, sorry to make this so long, wanted to let this gentleam know we have done some research on these pants.
> >
> > Buck Conner
> > dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile
> > __________________________
> > >On Fri, 23 April 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
> > >
> > > In reply to your question on the Amish work pants sold by several shops around the country.
> > >
> > > >On Wed, 21 April 1999, Laurel huber wrote:
> > > >I own a pair of Amish pants made out of denim that I use for >everyday knock-about use. They are Broad Fall and have metal rivet >buttons.
> > >
> > > These pants are suited for Civil War and later into the westered movement, to late for fur trade. In Hanson's sketch books you'll see drop fronts, but they have a narrow drop, Buck Conner has an original pair of breeches that belonged to Marino Medina that are drop front and Hanson figured they were late 1840's to 1860's - narrow drop front.
> > >
> > > >Besides the buttons and fabric, I would not use them for Fur Trade
> > > >re-enactment because the most often shown examples of trousers I have
> > > >seen of that period have been Narrow Fall. You start seeing Broad >Falls show up in George Bingham paintings from the late 1840s to the >1850s,Riverboat period.
> > >
> > > I am Amish and my relations came here in the mid 1700's to work as farmers to supply the demands of Phila. and other cities on the east coast. We can date our relations back over 300 years, so I don't understand what you are saying. If working and supplying a demand is not active then what is ! Turtle.
> > >
> > > >The mid to late 1800s is about the time the Amish started being >active. Maybe the style was available earlier but it couldn't have >been as common. Anyone else on the list have documentation on the >wide spread appearance of the Broad Fall style?
> > >
> >
> >
> > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
>
>
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
> > buck is it true you have a pair od mario madena paints---tell me about
> > them in detail---where did you get them and how are they documented---I
> > have a bunch of historical stuff also---
> >
> > let me know the scoop---
> >
> > "Hawk"
> > Michael Pierce
> > 854 Glenfield Dr.
> > Palm Harbor, florida 34684
___________________________________
You asked for it Hawk, it's a little long and according to the AMM editor it will be in the next issue of Tomahawk & Long Rifle (which is a great magazine with very interesting articles and history of the fur trade, now available for subscriptions to non-members, will get yearly price and address if anyone is interested). Had to plug the magazine, our editor is a very hard working fellow and gets on list very little.
This article was talking about breeches or short pants in the fur trade more than about drop front pants.
I read an article entitled "The Well-Dressed Explorer" by Jeff Gottfred of the NWBC located in Calgary, Canada; in the article he mentions David Thompson's leather trousers and long wool socks, along with Samuel Johnson's dictionary's remarks of trousers used in outposts and common wear on the frontier.
NOTE
I have always felt that one of the problems found in living history has been the dating of menÆs clothing, especially civilian clothing, seems to be volumes on the subject - but for womenÆs clothing. After years of research on what is correct and what is questionable, I have found that
knowing military clothing is extremely helpful in dating civilian wares. A good example, the British Army went from the fly front to the fall front knee breeches in the Clothing Warrent of 1768. Thus, military usually changes fashion late, the front fly was probably going out of
civilian style in the early 1790Æs. If portraying a fashionable gentlemen from Philadelphia, Annapolis or St. Louis, you would be wearing fall front breeches or trousers. But if you were a farmer in the same period you
would likely have fly frontÆs. Fly front breeches were
developed around 1650 and in a hundred and fifty years, change was the tightness and size of the waistband going from 4 - 6 inches in 1730 - 1750, to 2 - 2 1/2 inch range found on late 1830 - 1850 fall fronts.
This article reminded me of an item I found twenty-five years ago when living in northern Colorado, northwest of the town of Loveland in a small valley called the Buckhorn Canyon (named by Mariano Medina, the Colorado Mountainman). Medina was reported to have shot and killed several young
Utes that had stolen horses from his place of business west of Loveland and had rode them a few miles up this canyon when Medina caught up with them. This same canyon was where it was reported that his daughter was buried.
My wife at the time and her family had several hundred acres of which only half was farm-able, the rest was used for pasture and a small sandstone quarry, it was narrow in width and followed the Buckhorn Canyon ridge down into the valley. Only a few miles from the Big Thompson River that
Mariano Medina had his toll bridge on for years, charging from as little as $ .25 a wagon on a busy day to as high as $ 10.00 a wagon on a slow day to cross this river.According to the local paper, these charges helped newcomers make up their mind about settling on one side or the other of
the Thompson, with small settlements springing up in the area like Berthoud, Campeon and Medina Flat's.
My father-in-law told me as a young boy growing up in the valley he could remember when the Utes would come to town and everyone would gather their tools and vegetables and store them inside until they passed, he said they were looked at as gypsies and known to steal loose items laying around and sell those items in town for booze. This seemed to be the only problem as he recalls was ever present with these people that lived at the northern end of the canyon.
Around 1935 the local college - CSU, in Fort Collins was called to look at a grave site that was uncovered in the sandstone quarry on the family property, it was decided to be possibly Native American, a women buried sitting up. The college would return in a week to remove the body and look for additional clues at the site. In the remaining time the local farmers feared that removing these remains of this person could bring a curse on their valley and decided to cover the grave and not give permission to anyone to touch the site. My father-in-law had the pre-mix concrete company pour an 8" slab on top of the grave and then pushed 3 to 4 feet of dirt and riff-raff (broken rock from the quarry) on the slab. When the college showed up a few days later they wanted the court to issue an order to remove the body (believed to be Medina's daughter, Lena) after several meetings with the valley farmers, the subject was dropped.
Now that you have a little history of this valley we'll get back to the trousers, forty years later I was building fence on this property in the hills above the farm ground and found a small pocket, not really a cave per say. A friend says we were looking for rattlesnakes, not building
fence, can't remember, spent a lot of time in these hills year around hunting and just looking around. This was a large flat rolling area that runs for 6-7 miles; not bad walking, with lots of game - rabbits, turkey, mule and whitetail deer, and a local herd of elk. Anyway whatever we were doing we could see something in this loaf shaped hole and after several hours of probing with long sticks we
removed some of the larger rocks to a point where we could see there were no snakes in our pocket under this opening in the side of the hill. Still not really comfortable I crawled inside with a flashlight and a small shovel and started scraping the ground looking for anything that could
have been drug into this natural living quarters that appeared to have housed some local coyotes. Most of the items were clean bones, a few pieces of skull of small animals, three old beads and a hard ball of leather that looked like an old shirt, torn but it looked like it was all there. We figured the beads came from the activities of a local mountainman club that ran monthly shoots on the
property, other items were the gathering of the local residents of this den, the coyotes.
I soaked the hard ball of leather for several days in a 5 gallon bucket of water, once soft the ball was stretched on a plywood surface and tacked down, the possible leather shirt turns out to be leather breeches that were manufactured by there appearance. Much of the construction was of the early style of machine sewing, commercial type brass buttons, small drop front design with the adjustable waist band tie in the back. The waist band is whip stitched, about 15-16 stitches to the inch with a canvas
type material sandwiched between the leather for extra support. The brass button are of the dished style with crude lettering of the manufacturer, now white with mineral deposits. the legs are slightly tapered to the knee with the usual buttoned cuff below the knee and the bulky butt area like the military ones of the early 1800's.
After showing the breeches to the local museum in Loveland, I was sent to the library in search of a Mrs. Zethyl Gates - librarian and local historian. At the time she was still working on a book about local mountainman Marino Medina (since that time she has done several books, articles and papers about this man). She has spent most of her working life researching Medina and others of the late fur trade in Colorado and Wyoming, even went to Spain to research Medina's family history.
When walking into the library I was sent to her office at once with my old beat-up leather trousers and found a very excited Mrs. Gates, she had been called by the museum about these breeches. She showed me a late picture of Marino wearing breeches like the ones I have found and another picture of Louie Papa (Medina's step-son) wearing the same breeches, taken in a parade in Loveland after the turn of the century. Interesting, but questionable as to whether they were his or someone else's and how did the trousers get on this hill?
A few years later I was visiting an old friend in Chadron, NE; Charles E. Hanson, Jr., may have heard of him, showed him the old breeches and told him the story and Mrs. Gates interest. He said, " let's go to my study, and the museum (Museum of the Fur Trade) want to show you something".
Charles points out a leather coat with similar brass buttons and similar construction, had been purchased from a family in northern Colorado at a gun show and traded around for a period before finding its new home at the museum. The next thing out of Charles mouth was "how much". According to Mr. Hanson this type of coat and pants (trousers) were made commercially in California during the late fur trade and still available after the Indian Wars.
Much of this style of garment saw sales in the traders tents and posts across the Rockies during this period, along with long wool and cotton socks. Interesting how the article about David Thompson's leather breeches brought about this story for your reading pleasure. Then just 6-8 months ago Wes Housler of Rocky Mountain College Productions mentioned the idea of breeches or short pantaloons over the phone as we were talking about what supplies would be needed from Clark & Sons Mercantile
for their next adventure in the Rockies, that will be filmed making number #2 in a series of items covering the Fur Trade. I told Wes of what you had just read and we both thought this would be very interesting to anyone working as a trapper or doing fur trade re-enactments. Wes, like our old friend of the fur trade that has now passed to the other side - Charles E. Hanson, Jr, both have found countless sources of information on the subject in journals as well as reference to the use in of breeches in many accounts of life on the frontier. Wes has also found reference to the use of these garments in supply lists from a number of suppliers, trading posts and forts. I have had similar experiences; as well as having a late fur trade period pair of breeches, believed to have possibility belonged to Marino Medina. Using pictures from Colorado Historical Society, photo's from the Zethyl Gates's collection, photo's from the Loveland Reporter Herald that has run accounts of the local mountainman's adventures; plus with the knowledge of Mr. Hanson on the style - cut - manufacture and material used in these short pants and the location of their storage for years has helped to bring ownership closer.
I not going any further than this with article that Bill has published in the T&LR, but will give you some sources.
Sources:
Ball, Clara, ed. Loveland-Big Thompson Valley 1877-1977 Centennial, 1975.
Camp, Charles L., ed. ôJames Clyman Frontiersman. Portland: Champoeg Press,
1960. Gates, Zethyl, ôMariano Medina Colorado Mountain Manö Johnson Publishing
Co., 1981
Hafen, LeRoy R., ed. ôGeorge A. JacksonÆs Diary, 1858-1859.ö Colorado
Magazine 12 (November 1935): 201-214.
Hengesbaugh, Jeff & Housler, Wes, ôDress and Equipage of the Mountain
Man 1820-1840ö Rocky Mountain College Productions, 1997.
Kephart, Bruce, ôHawken Rifleö Saturday Evening Post, 21 February 1920, p.65.
Ruxton, George Frederick August, ôLife in the Far Westö Oklahoma Press, 1951.
This gives you a longer story than planned Hawk
Later
Buck Conner
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
I understood what you said and agree about the fashion changes, but wasn't the original question - would the twill Amish pants fit the fur trade !
Would you agree that the early narrow drop fronts fit the early to mid fur trade, as you mentioned some didn't change. The wider drop front (like the Amish) would be more at the end of the fur trade and not much after the being of the Civil War as far as fashion went, and may have been worn if fashion wasn't a consideration or that's all you got to wear.
What do you think.
Buck
Did you get my e-mail that the woodswalk was cancelled for Sunday.
>On Sat, 24 April 1999, Phyllis and Don Keas wrote:
> Reply to: Re: MtMan-List: twill pants
> Buck - You misunderstood about the military. We were talking about the fashions of the times, not military cause nobody pays any attention to the military cause they were always slow to catch up.
> Button fly front pants were popular up to about 1750 wehen the fashion changed to drop fronts. Drop fronts remained the fashion until about 1841 when they changed to button front fly pants. Some of the older gentlemen did not change to the new fashions and kept wearing what they were used to for many years afterward, but the fashion of the times changed to button front in 1840. Of course the Amish, Mennonites or Quakers didn't bother to change just because the fashions did.
>
> Beth Gilgun-Tidings of the 18th Century
> Herbert Norris - Nineteenth Century Costume and fashion
> Iris Brooke - English Costume of the Nineteenth Century
>
> Hope we aren't talking oranges and apples here, Buck.
> DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants
>
> buck.conner wrote:
> >Don,
> >
> >The next issue of T&LR will have a documented pair of drop front breeches >that are believed to have belonged to Marino Medina that were commerically made in >the 1850's to 1860's, manufactured in Calif. and were very popular according to >Charles E. Hanson, Jr. They were made of a fine leather, brass stud style buttons >sewed on - mostly machine sewed with fine hand work on the waist band. Charley >had a jacket that was a match to these breeches, Mrs. E. Gates that wrote the book >on Medina also had a pair of these breeches that had belong to a gentleman from >Loveland around the same period. She had a picture of Louie Papa wearing the pair >I have around the turn of the century in a parade in Ft. Collins CO.
> >
> >We'renot talking military Don, the reference is to the drop front pants >that the Amish and several other "sexes" or "clans" of common people have been >wearing for decades and still wear today. I know what you mean by the military fashion >as a general rule of thumb, but like Medina's and others it doesn't alway quite fit.
> >
> >Take a look at the book I referred to and that whole section on pants.
> >
> >Buck
> >
> >>On Fri, 23 April 1999, Phyllis and Don Keas wrote:
> >> >> Reply to: Re: MtMan-List: twill pants
> >> Buck - I am afraid I am going to have to disagree with you gentlemen on >the drop front trousers. From everything I have read, drop front trousers >switched to button front flys starting about 1841. After that time, the only drop front >pants worn were by the military(always a day late & dollar short). My wife and >I do quite a bit of research on clothing, have several books on clothing, but >certainly don't know it all. This is just what we have found. Don Keas
> >> >> >> buck.conner wrote:
> >> >Hello Camp,
> >> >
> >> >Turtle, sounds like this lady hit a nerve about Amish being around a >short time.
> >> >
> >> >I'm doing some research on "Folk Medicine" for the next catalog and the >>Amish, and Mennonites (both spin-offs of the PA Dutch or sometimes called PA >>Germans)keep popping up with "cures" that date back well into the 1760's. Not sure >when >the groups went different ways, but seems to be in the early 1800's, that >some >members were unhappy with some teachings and set up their own churches, >schools and >settlements in NY, PA, OH and points west.
> >> >
> >> >One of the authors that writes about early life in the Amish settlements >is >John Hostetler, well know prof from Temple Univ., is he related - knowing >that's >your mother's maiden name !
> >> >
> >> >When I saw the posting about the Amish drop fall pants, "I thought you >>would make note of it, say not".
> >> >
> >> >I looked in Lehman's (Amish) catalog for information on clothing - >nothing, >next figured probably the best place would be "Rural Pennsylvania Clothing" >by >Ellen J. Gehret. On page 133 he shows breeches very similar to Marino >Medina's >with a small drop fall front and draw string adjustable panel in the back. >Another >pair on page 148 of a different material and wider drop front are still >early >styles. Now on page 150 you see a pair like mentioned in this posting, Gehert >says >they are of the 19th century - doesn't say early or late.
> >> >
> >> >I would wager that they are after the Civil War, as most of the stuff in >>the location of these pants,(Chester County Historical Society) is 1850's and >>later. The reason I say that is I knew several families that gave large amounts >of >household goods, clothing, etc. to this association back in the 1950's, when I >was >still living in Chester County, PA. They had Civil War related items and >later, >Valley Forge under the care of Vernon Bigsby had all the pre Rev. War to >the 1840's >stuff sewed up in that museum..
> >> >
> >> >Like you stated these are a little late for the fur trade, sorry to make >>this so long, wanted to let this gentleam know we have done some research on >these >pants.
> >> >
> >> >Buck Conner
> >> >dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile
> >> >__________________________
> >> >>On Fri, 23 April 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
> >> >> >> In reply to your question on the Amish work pants sold by several >shops >around the country.
> >> >> >I own a pair of Amish pants made out of denim that I use for >>everyday >knock-about use. They are Broad Fall and have metal rivet >buttons.
> >> >> >> These pants are suited for Civil War and later into the westered >>movement, to late for fur trade. In Hanson's sketch books you'll see drop fronts, >but >they have a narrow drop, Buck Conner has an original pair of breeches that >belonged >to Marino Medina that are drop front and Hanson figured they were late >1840's to >1860's - narrow drop front.
> >> >> >> >Besides the buttons and fabric, I would not use them for Fur Trade
> >> >> >re-enactment because the most often shown examples of trousers I have
> >> >> >seen of that period have been Narrow Fall. You start seeing Broad >>>Falls show up in George Bingham paintings from the late 1840s to the >>1850s,Riverboat >period.
> >> >> >> I am Amish and my relations came here in the mid 1700's to work as >>farmers to supply the demands of Phila. and other cities on the east coast. We >can date >our relations back over 300 years, so I don't understand what you are >saying. If >working and supplying a demand is not active then what is ! Turtle.
> >> >> >> >The mid to late 1800s is about the time the Amish started being >>active. >Maybe the style was available earlier but it couldn't have >been as >common. >Anyone else on the list have documentation on the >wide spread appearance of >the >Broad Fall style?
> >> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >RFC822 header
> >> >-----------------------------------
> >> >
> >> > Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com >with ESMTP
I have found several mistakes with one of the author's in Don's reference sources, seems this person copies others works and sometimes looses the translation of the work, thus not being clear and misleading the reader.
I'm more to believe someone that's known for his correctness in reporting what has happened like Hanson, or the reference Buck gave to the PA clothing book that Shumway published, another known for his correctness in what he prints and usually found to be as correct as possible.
Nothing wrong with the research boys, but sometimes we have to look at the reference/author's track record.
Several of the our writer's for some of the period magazine are starting to see problems with being mislead in their research, talked to a gentlemen (won't mention his name) he told several of us that he has had to eat crow several times in the last year or two, because of poor research that someone passed on to him and he used it, thus getting hammered for putting out wrong information.
I'm glad to see that both Don and Buck use more than one resource and then make their own minds up, and aren't swayed with just one person's idea. Keep up the good research and thanks for sharing.
Turtle.
> On Sat, 24 April 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> I understood what you said and agree about the fashion changes, but wasn't the original question - would the twill Amish pants fit the fur trade !
>
> Would you agree that the early narrow drop fronts fit the early to mid fur trade, as you mentioned some didn't change. The wider drop front (like the Amish) would be more at the end of the fur trade and not much after the being of the Civil War as far as fashion went, and may have been worn if fashion wasn't a consideration or that's all you got to wear.
>
> What do you think.
>
> Buck
>
> Did you get my e-mail that the woodswalk was cancelled for Sunday.
>
> >On Sat, 24 April 1999, Phyllis and Don Keas wrote:
> > Reply to: Re: MtMan-List: twill pants
> > Buck - You misunderstood about the military. We were talking about the fashions of the times, not military cause nobody pays any attention to the military cause they were always slow to catch up.
> > Button fly front pants were popular up to about 1750 wehen the fashion changed to drop fronts. Drop fronts remained the fashion until about 1841 when they changed to button front fly pants. Some of the older gentlemen did not change to the new fashions and kept wearing what they were used to for many years afterward, but the fashion of the times changed to button front in 1840. Of course the Amish, Mennonites or Quakers didn't bother to change just because the fashions did.
> >
> > Beth Gilgun-Tidings of the 18th Century
> > Herbert Norris - Nineteenth Century Costume and fashion
> > Iris Brooke - English Costume of the Nineteenth Century
> >
> > Hope we aren't talking oranges and apples here, Buck.
> > DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants
> >
> > buck.conner wrote:
> > >Don,
> > >
> > >The next issue of T&LR will have a documented pair of drop front breeches >that are believed to have belonged to Marino Medina that were commerically made in >the 1850's to 1860's, manufactured in Calif. and were very popular according to >Charles E. Hanson, Jr. They were made of a fine leather, brass stud style buttons >sewed on - mostly machine sewed with fine hand work on the waist band. Charley >had a jacket that was a match to these breeches, Mrs. E. Gates that wrote the book >on Medina also had a pair of these breeches that had belong to a gentleman from >Loveland around the same period. She had a picture of Louie Papa wearing the pair >I have around the turn of the century in a parade in Ft. Collins CO.
> > >
> > >We'renot talking military Don, the reference is to the drop front pants >that the Amish and several other "sexes" or "clans" of common people have been >wearing for decades and still wear today. I know what you mean by the military fashion >as a general rule of thumb, but like Medina's and others it doesn't alway quite fit.
> > >
> > >Take a look at the book I referred to and that whole section on pants.
> > >
> > >Buck
> > >
> > >>On Fri, 23 April 1999, Phyllis and Don Keas wrote:
> > >> >> Reply to: Re: MtMan-List: twill pants
> > >> Buck - I am afraid I am going to have to disagree with you gentlemen on >the drop front trousers. From everything I have read, drop front trousers >switched to button front flys starting about 1841. After that time, the only drop front >pants worn were by the military(always a day late & dollar short). My wife and >I do quite a bit of research on clothing, have several books on clothing, but >certainly don't know it all. This is just what we have found. Don Keas
> > >> >> >> buck.conner wrote:
> > >> >Hello Camp,
> > >> >
> > >> >Turtle, sounds like this lady hit a nerve about Amish being around a >short time.
> > >> >
> > >> >I'm doing some research on "Folk Medicine" for the next catalog and the >>Amish, and Mennonites (both spin-offs of the PA Dutch or sometimes called PA >>Germans)keep popping up with "cures" that date back well into the 1760's. Not sure >when >the groups went different ways, but seems to be in the early 1800's, that >some >members were unhappy with some teachings and set up their own churches, >schools and >settlements in NY, PA, OH and points west.
> > >> >
> > >> >One of the authors that writes about early life in the Amish settlements >is >John Hostetler, well know prof from Temple Univ., is he related - knowing >that's >your mother's maiden name !
> > >> >
> > >> >When I saw the posting about the Amish drop fall pants, "I thought you >>would make note of it, say not".
> > >> >
> > >> >I looked in Lehman's (Amish) catalog for information on clothing - >nothing, >next figured probably the best place would be "Rural Pennsylvania Clothing" >by >Ellen J. Gehret. On page 133 he shows breeches very similar to Marino >Medina's >with a small drop fall front and draw string adjustable panel in the back. >Another >pair on page 148 of a different material and wider drop front are still >early >styles. Now on page 150 you see a pair like mentioned in this posting, Gehert >says >they are of the 19th century - doesn't say early or late.
> > >> >
> > >> >I would wager that they are after the Civil War, as most of the stuff in >>the location of these pants,(Chester County Historical Society) is 1850's and >>later. The reason I say that is I knew several families that gave large amounts >of >household goods, clothing, etc. to this association back in the 1950's, when I >was >still living in Chester County, PA. They had Civil War related items and >later, >Valley Forge under the care of Vernon Bigsby had all the pre Rev. War to >the 1840's >stuff sewed up in that museum..
> > >> >
> > >> >Like you stated these are a little late for the fur trade, sorry to make >>this so long, wanted to let this gentleam know we have done some research on >these >pants.
> > >> >
> > >> >Buck Conner
> > >> >dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile
> > >> >__________________________
> > >> >>On Fri, 23 April 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
> > >> >> >> In reply to your question on the Amish work pants sold by several >shops >around the country.
> > >> >> >I own a pair of Amish pants made out of denim that I use for >>everyday >knock-about use. They are Broad Fall and have metal rivet >buttons.
> > >> >> >> These pants are suited for Civil War and later into the westered >>movement, to late for fur trade. In Hanson's sketch books you'll see drop fronts, >but >they have a narrow drop, Buck Conner has an original pair of breeches that >belonged >to Marino Medina that are drop front and Hanson figured they were late >1840's to >1860's - narrow drop front.
> > >> >> >> >Besides the buttons and fabric, I would not use them for Fur Trade
> > >> >> >re-enactment because the most often shown examples of trousers I have
> > >> >> >seen of that period have been Narrow Fall. You start seeing Broad >>>Falls show up in George Bingham paintings from the late 1840s to the >>1850s,Riverboat >period.
> > >> >> >> I am Amish and my relations came here in the mid 1700's to work as >>farmers to supply the demands of Phila. and other cities on the east coast. We >can date >our relations back over 300 years, so I don't understand what you are >saying. If >working and supplying a demand is not active then what is ! Turtle.
> > >> >> >> >The mid to late 1800s is about the time the Amish started being >>active. >Maybe the style was available earlier but it couldn't have >been as >common. >Anyone else on the list have documentation on the >wide spread appearance of >the >Broad Fall style?
> > >> >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >RFC822 header
> > >> >-----------------------------------
> > >> >
> > >> > Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com >with ESMTP
One big factor is that Mrs. Gates had a picture of Louie Papa (Medina's step-son) sitting on his white horse around the turn of the century at the grave of his step sister (Lena) on my father-in-laws property, according to the Loveland newspaper he spent many hours in the area that his step-father had hunted and visited.
Some of the old timers said the family would come up after Marino passed on and spend weekends getting away from the heat in town. This is only 6 miles into the foothills from Medina Flats, the pants were probably left by accident on one of these outtings according to Mrs. Gates, an educated guess as she put it.
Buck
> On Sun, 25 April 1999, michael pierce wrote:
>
> good data still wonder how you establish that the paints were
> madenia's---got to have a good thread to link it all to and to
> positatively establish ownership---not just a supisition---Your story is
> similar to me and dan anderson finfing a spanish gold mine lost since
I remember Mrs. Gates saying she was sure those pants belonged to the Medina family and she had looked at hundreds of newspaper pictures for ones like them in the Ft. Collins and Loveland area, and as far as she knew they were the only pair around.
Hanson told Ray Turner (AMM member) that he felt about 98% in favor of these belonging to MM, and being on private property with no public access, no one else was allow on the property other than the Medinas to visit the grave of a family member. He also told me that Medina being a fancy type of man and with his wealth at the time may have even had several pairs of these pants and jackets that matched, but that was just a guess !
Interesting to thing about and like someone said, some of these old boys hung on to the old styles, even if not in fashion.
Turtle.
> On Sun, 25 April 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> ------- Start of forwarded message -------
>
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: twill pants
> To: hawknest4@juno.com
> From: <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
> Date: 25 Apr 1999 07:57:37 PDT
>
> Hawk,
>
> One big factor is that Mrs. Gates had a picture of Louie Papa (Medina's step-son) sitting on his white horse around the turn of the century at the grave of his step sister (Lena) on my father-in-laws property, according to the Loveland newspaper he spent many hours in the area that his step-father had hunted and visited.
>
> Some of the old timers said the family would come up after Marino passed on and spend weekends getting away from the heat in town. This is only 6 miles into the foothills from Medina Flats, the pants were probably left by accident on one of these outtings according to Mrs. Gates, an educated guess as she put it.
>
> Buck
>
> > On Sun, 25 April 1999, michael pierce wrote:
> >
> > good data still wonder how you establish that the paints were
> > madenia's---got to have a good thread to link it all to and to
> > positatively establish ownership---not just a supisition---Your story is
> > similar to me and dan anderson finfing a spanish gold mine lost since
Wasn't that at the 100th year annv. of Medina's death, down at the Park the deciated to him - west of town, I remember her saying something about some pants.
Are they the leather breeches that hung in the muzzleloading store at Masonville, Colorado, if so I saw a guy try and buy them and was told they were promised to the Museum of the Fur Trade.
Brother that's been 10-12 years ago, they had some interesting doc. items in that place, where did all that stuff go ?
Powder Hawk
Iowa
> On Sun, 25 April 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> Mike,
> I remember Mrs. Gates saying she was sure those pants belonged to the Medina family and she had looked at hundreds of newspaper pictures for ones like them in the Ft. Collins and Loveland area, and as far as she knew they were the only pair around.
> Hanson told Ray Turner (AMM member) that he felt about 98% in favor of these belonging to MM, and being on private property with no public access, no one else was allow on the property other than the Medinas to visit the grave of a family member. He also told me that Medina being a fancy type of man and with his wealth at the time may have even had several pairs of these pants and jackets that matched, but that was just a guess !
> Interesting to thing about and like someone said, some of these old boys hung on to the old styles, even if not in fashion.
> Turtle.
>
> > On Sun, 25 April 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote:
> >
> > ------- Start of forwarded message -------
> >
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: twill pants
> > To: hawknest4@juno.com
> > From: <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
> > Date: 25 Apr 1999 07:57:37 PDT
> >
> > Hawk,
> >
> > One big factor is that Mrs. Gates had a picture of Louie Papa (Medina's step-son) sitting on his white horse around the turn of the century at the grave of his step sister (Lena) on my father-in-laws property, according to the Loveland newspaper he spent many hours in the area that his step-father had hunted and visited.
> >
> > Some of the old timers said the family would come up after Marino passed on and spend weekends getting away from the heat in town. This is only 6 miles into the foothills from Medina Flats, the pants were probably left by accident on one of these outtings according to Mrs. Gates, an educated guess as she put it.
> >
> > Buck
> >
> > > On Sun, 25 April 1999, michael pierce wrote:
> > >
> > > good data still wonder how you establish that the paints were
> > > madenia's---got to have a good thread to link it all to and to
> > > positatively establish ownership---not just a supisition---Your story is
> > > similar to me and dan anderson finfing a spanish gold mine lost since
Ladies, Gentlemen and members of this list, haven't we kicked the "twill pants" around long enought, probably are just about worn out by now.
Lets get on to another subject to research and build our knowledge on. I'm worn out over twill drop fronts and air rifles, you wouldn't believe the amount of e-mail off list I have received on both subjects.
Anybody got some time saving advice for cooking, recipes, camp setup, bugs in camp, things to do when its slow in camp, etc, etc.
Thanks
Buck Conner
dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc.
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: in our Prayers (OFF TOPIC)-The Article by Billy
Date: 25 Apr 1999 16:59:30 -0700
Just returned from the Memorial Services for these kids and their families, very hard to just be there, lots of crying, hugging and just people showing support. Lots of big names from the government as well as singers and other caring folks.
The more information the police let out the more this appears to be something that could happen in anyone's school in any part of the free world, hard to believe that kids could get this much stuff together, what the hell were the people around them doing? I'm sure as the case goes on more details will shock us more.
Most Safeway stores are taking donations and have the blue and silver ribbons, will try and get an address for those interested.
Buck Conner
Colorado Territory
_______________________
> On Sun, 25 April 1999, "William S. Jones" wrote:
>
> Here's the article:
>
> April 22 PrayerAlert--Littleton, CO--"When I heard about the tragedy near
> Denver, I was shocked, and in my heart I wept for the students, the
> teachers, and the parents and relatives of those who had been hurt or
> killed. I immediately went to prayer, that God would comfort and strengthen
> them, and give us all some understanding of why this happened.
> Unfortunately, events like this have been happening far too often in America
> during the past few months."
>
> "I have been saddened and deeply moved by the television coverage as this
> situation has unfolded. I agree with those who have remarked that the
> problem is not guns--rather the hearts of people which need to be changed."
>
> "I would add that only God can change hearts. That is the reason Jesus said
> 'You must be born again.' Only God can give us a new nature that is
> demonstrated by love. He revealed His love for the whole human race by
> sending Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins."
>
> "At the same time, my heart and prayers also go out especially to the
> parents of those who committed this terrible crime. I am sure their hearts
> are breaking, and they need our compassion and understanding."
>
> As Dr. Graham stated above, guns are not the problem ... people's hearts
> are. As long as we collectively refuse to face our own mortality, and
> maintain the teen-age mentality that we're "bullet-proof", I reckon that The
> Almighty will remain "kicked out" of the schools, and the Ten Commandments
> will never appear on the wall of an American school, or a U.S. Court House
> as long as the Liberal mindset prevails.
>
> I thought of this verse of scripture as I was writing the above:
>
> 2 Chr 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble
> themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways;
> then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal
> their land.
>
> Waffalo
> Hiveranno, AMM # 907
> Past KY Bde. Booshway
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of
> kestrel@ticon.net
> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 1999 9:52 PM
> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> Cc: buck.conner@uswestmail.net
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: in our Prayers (OFF TOPIC)
>
>
> Knowing Buck was closest to this of all I know on and off the net I
> forwarded this only to Buck. It's pleasing to see it forwarded to the list
> (and I probably should have sent this to the list). Anyway folks,Billy
> Graham has gone on record (on the net,sorry I don't have his web page handy)
> stating that this is not a problem that stiffer gun control laws will fix!
> Thanks Buck for sending this to the list.
> One other thing,does anyone have a contact for the kids(in Littleton)that
> are making the blue and silver ribbons? I want to send them some money for
> supplies and get a few ribbons for myself.
> Thanks,Jeff Powers
>
> I KNOW the future......GOD WINS!
>
> On 1999-04-24 hist_text@lists.xmission.com said to kestrel@ticon.net
> >X-Mailer: Web Mail 3.0
> >On Sat, 24 April 1999, kestrel@ticon.net wrote:
> >> My name is Jayson Martin from Littleton, Colorado, I would like
> >>for anyone
> >> who reads this to please write their name down. I would like to
> >>send prayers out
> >> to my friends who were in Columbine H.S. I would like everyone to
> >>please say a
> >> prayer for the safety of everyone who was involved in this
> >>terrible tragedy. It
> >> is something that has hurt me today as well as my friends, I'm
> >>grateful for my
> >> safety and their safety. Please Forward this to as many people as
> >>you can, let
> >> us all come together and pray that this tragedy ends soon.
> >> Thank you.
> >> ***Copy this letter, add your name and forward it to as many
> >>people as you know. Thank you.
> >> 1. Jayson L. Martin Littleton, Colorado
> >> 2. Michelle R. Evans Aurora, Colorado - I also had friends
> >>in there 3. Mary Goddard Denver , Colorado
> >> 4. Mike Stratis Denver, Colorado
> >> 5. Bill Hankammer, Colorado Springs CO.
> >> 6. Becky Jo Hersh, Aurora, CO
> >> 7. Katie D. Co,spgs, CO
> >> 8. Ryan S. Monument, CO
> >> 9. Rey Sandoval. Denver, CO
> >> 10. Mike Mcpherren. West Des Moines, Iowa.
> >> 11. Megan Richards Des Moines Iowa
> >> 12. Mary Beth Zieglowsky, Iowa City, IA
> >> 13. Julie Crow, Tipton, IA
> >> 14. Mary Jo Piper, Coralville, IA
> >> 15. Becky Flanegan, Wellman, IA
> >> 16. Kay Scheetz, Coralville, IA
> >> 17. Peggy Timm, Tipton, IA
> >> 18. Tony Timm, Des Moines, IA
> >> 19. Clark Ullerich, Davenport, IA
> >> 20. Sandy Johnson, Denison, IA
> >> 21. Lyle Breaux, Marrero, LA
> >> 22. Sandi Rohrs, Wheeling, IL
> >> 23. Melissa Thommesen, Janesville, WI
> >> 24. Tiffany Powers, Janesville, WI
> >> 25. Jeff Powers, Janesville, WI
> >> 26. Lee Boyer, State College, PA
> >> 27. Buck Conner, Lakewood, CO
> >> 28.
> >> 29.
> >> 30.
> >> 31.
> >> 32.
> >> Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
> >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.
> >uswestmail.net
>
> Proud to be a Jesus Freak :-)
>
> Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Subject: MtMan-List: Columbine High Information (OFF-TOPIC)
Date: 26 Apr 1999 15:16:42 -0700
For those of you on the hist_list that have contacted me on this list and off-list on the Columbine High Shooting, wanting an address for contributions.
These are tax-deductible per our Governor in Colorado and Vice President of the United States, mentioned at the Memorial Service on Sunday.
There are funds setup for ech student and teacher that were wounded or loss their life. Figured most didn't relly know these people and the general funds would be better suited.
Colorado State University is collecting for the victims and their families. Contributions should be made by check payable to "Colorado State Cares" and mailed to CSU Foundation, PO Box 1870, Fort Collins, CO 80522-1870
Columbine High School is collecting for the damage done by the bullets and blood stains to the library. Contributions of $10 should be made by check payable to "Columbine High School Library Fund", C/O the Littleton Jaycees, PO Box 1008, Littleton, CO 80160-1008.
Any other information desired may be gotten from the two addresses shown above. Sorry for the delay, but with everything that has happened, it's hard to get good information for address, phone numbers, etc.
Buck Conner
Colorado Territory
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Subject: MtMan-List: Using Documentation and Sound Thread Resources
Date: 26 Apr 1999 16:46:16 -0700
Thanks to Michael Pierce and Buck Conner for showing some examples of clear documentations and sound thread resources when researching items.
Both of these gentlemen have always been delightful in their findings and knowledge of different time frames that we all are interested in on this history link.
There have been many that have added and hopefully continue to do so, this is what Dean Rudy has started and assembled in the files we can go to, and refresh our memories.
Thanks to all of you that come forth with such great items of interest, it's a nice experience to be able to learn and listen along with some funny stories thrown in, again thank you.
Back hear in PA, most do the F&I War to Rev. War then jump to the Civil War, very little fur trade, making this a nice relief.
Turtle.
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Columbine High Information (OFF-TOPIC)
Date: 26 Apr 1999 16:49:03 -0700
Thanks Buck, checks in the mail.
Turtle.
> On Mon, 26 April 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> For those of you on the hist_list that have contacted me on this list and off-list on the Columbine High Shooting, wanting an address for contributions.
>
> These are tax-deductible per our Governor in Colorado and Vice President of the United States, mentioned at the Memorial Service on Sunday.
>
> There are funds setup for ech student and teacher that were wounded or loss their life. Figured most didn't relly know these people and the general funds would be better suited.
>
> Colorado State University is collecting for the victims and their families. Contributions should be made by check payable to "Colorado State Cares" and mailed to CSU Foundation, PO Box 1870, Fort Collins, CO 80522-1870
>
> Columbine High School is collecting for the damage done by the bullets and blood stains to the library. Contributions of $10 should be made by check payable to "Columbine High School Library Fund", C/O the Littleton Jaycees, PO Box 1008, Littleton, CO 80160-1008.
>
> Any other information desired may be gotten from the two addresses shown above. Sorry for the delay, but with everything that has happened, it's hard to get good information for address, phone numbers, etc.
>
> Buck Conner
> Colorado Territory
>
>
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Using Documentation and Sound Thread Resources
Date: 27 Apr 1999 07:05:39 -0700
Ditto to Michael's remarks Turtle.
Hey, what would you call this for documentation, good, bad or a thread boys ?
______________________________
I owed and operated a muzzleloading store and customer - Dale would come in for coffee and some friendly chat. One day he mentioned he had a little chromed plated pistol that his grandfather owned, it had been loaded for so long they were afraid to beat the shells out off it. It was a little S&W break open in 38 S&W (not Special - sometimes called 38 S&W short). Nickel plated with the hard rubber black grips.
Dale's grandfather had worked at a stage stop in Virginia Dale, CO (same place that Jack Slade ran years before, Hole In The Wall Gang leader and Wells Fargo agent. My ex-wife's grandfather worked for both of these gentlemen, as a guard and stage driver between Ft. Collins CO and Larimie to Cheyenne WYO. that's another interesting story of John Mansfield.
Anyway "Doc" and Dale's grandfather were friends, "Doc" was supplied with fresh horses and food on several occasions when being followed by different people. Dale never said if they were the law or lawless. It's in the history books of this place, if interested.
Dale couldn't get the cartridges out of it. He was worried that his kids may get hurt with it laying around the house and wondered if I would look at it.
He brought it in and told us the story of this gun, I suggested we write to S&W and that would show what was on their records as to who really purchased the gun originally. In the mean time we would try and remove the frozen cartridges.
That turned out to be a job, removed the cylinder and soaked it in several types of lubes, oils and finally carb. cleaner. with a dowel and a small hammer we drove the loaded cases out of their resting place without hurting
anything other than pushing the lead bullets down in the cases.
Overall condition of bore and cylinder holes were poor from lack of care, nickel was about 50%, but the gun functioned, so we were pleased with what we had done.
When S&W's letter arrived the story he (Dale) told held water as the gun fell within a dozen revolver serial numbers that were purchased by the famous "Doc" Holiday before the turn of the century. In the letter they gave this information and then ended by asking if the gun was for sale.
Have lost the serial number since then and gave the owner (Dale Woliver) the Smith & Wesson letter about the little revolver that was purchased by "Doc" Holiday.
This was one of a dozen that "Doc" Holiday had purchased from the S&W factory and gave to his friends for favors they had done while on the run with Wyatt and his friends after their shootout at the OK Corral.
As far as I know it is still laying on the fire place mantel with an old newspaper picture of "Doc" and Dale's grandfather in front of the stage stop at Virginia Dale Colorado.
Now is this documentated or thread for information about this little revolver, just because Dale has a picture of his relation with "Doc" doesn't say he was given the gun, and the S&W records do not say who received the gun. So Hawk, how would you figure this one, I don't personality know what it would be. Can see it both ways !
Buck Conner
dba/ Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc.
______________________________________
> On Mon, 26 April 1999, Michael Pierce wrote:
> turtle ---if you need anything give us a whoot on or offline or our phone
> number is at the end of this post---we'ev been back to the indian wars a
> bit---best to you and thanks for the good words---still looking for that
> positive thread for proper documentation of a possession to include that
> rifle I have sitting in the corner---that i have been scratching my head
> about for over 3 weeks---one of those unmakked things---looks like a
> fordney but----starting that ever ending search for reality---
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Using Documentation and Sound Thread Resources
Date: 27 Apr 1999 19:07:52 -0700
I can see what you say, this could be taken either way as documentated or thread information depending on who inviewed the sources. It will be interesting to see how others would look at this, how about it Hawk.
Seeing how the gun has stayed in the family and the relation worked at the stage stop, and is pictured with Holiday, is real good thread resouce documentation - like Medina's pants. If he had written paper from the relation, I think it would become solid documentation. Smith & Wesson information says the revolvers were purchased by Holiday for gifts (if I understood that correctly) but didn't give any clue as to who they were given to.
Turtle.
> Now is this documentated or thread for information about this little revolver, just because Dale has a picture of his relation with "Doc" doesn't say he was given the gun, and the S&W records do not say who received the gun. So Hawk, how would you figure this one, I don't personality know what it would be. Can see it both ways !
>
> Buck Conner
> dba/ Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc.
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I stand corrected on the dates of the activity of the Amish in this country. I should have know better and appreciate the education.
Larry Huber
"Shoots-the-Prairie"
turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
> In reply to your question on the Amish work pants sold by several shops around the country.
>
> >On Wed, 21 April 1999, Laurel huber wrote:
> >I own a pair of Amish pants made out of denim that I use for >everyday knock-about use. They are Broad Fall and have metal rivet >buttons.
>
> These pants are suited for Civil War and later into the westered movement, to late for fur trade. In Hanson's sketch books you'll see drop fronts, but they have a narrow drop, Buck Conner has an original pair of breeches that belonged to Marino Medina that are drop front and Hanson figured they were late 1840's to 1860's - narrow drop front.
>
> >Besides the buttons and fabric, I would not use them for Fur Trade
> >re-enactment because the most often shown examples of trousers I have
> >seen of that period have been Narrow Fall. You start seeing Broad >Falls show up in George Bingham paintings from the late 1840s to the >1850s,Riverboat period.
>
> I am Amish and my relations came here in the mid 1700's to work as farmers to supply the demands of Phila. and other cities on the east coast. We can date our relations back over 300 years, so I don't understand what you are saying. If working and supplying a demand is not active then what is ! Turtle.
>
> >The mid to late 1800s is about the time the Amish started being >active. Maybe the style was available earlier but it couldn't have >been as common. Anyone else on the list have documentation on the >wide spread appearance of the Broad Fall style?
>
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