ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/hist_text/archive/hist_text.199903

Internet Message Format | 1999-03-31 | 882KB

From: Laurel huber <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: blanket hat/hood
Date: 01 Mar 1999 14:06:31 -0800

"The Mountain's Sketchbook-Vol. #1, Page #7".  This book has a workable patten
and instructions enough to make the item you want. I've made two from this
basic pattern.

Larry Huber
"Shoots-the-Prairie"

Douglas Hepner wrote:

>     Does anyone have a pattern or instructions or anything that would be
> useful in the construction of a blanket hat/hood as seen in the A.J. Miller
> painting and sketches?
> Thanks for any help.
>
> YMOS
> "Dull Hawk"






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Laurel huber <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: blanket hat/hood
Date: 01 Mar 1999 14:06:31 -0800

"The Mountain's Sketchbook-Vol. #1, Page #7".  This book has a workable patten
and instructions enough to make the item you want. I've made two from this
basic pattern.

Larry Huber
"Shoots-the-Prairie"

Douglas Hepner wrote:

>     Does anyone have a pattern or instructions or anything that would be
> useful in the construction of a blanket hat/hood as seen in the A.J. Miller
> painting and sketches?
> Thanks for any help.
>
> YMOS
> "Dull Hawk"






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: JW Stephens <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains
Date: 23 Feb 1999 20:47:17 -0800

I'm interested in persuing any leads regarding documentation of fur-trade era
mountaineers and trout fishing either for sustenance or recreation during the
times when beaver weren't being trapped.

Since trappers were in the water a lot they must have seen the abundance of
fish in beaver ponds and the waters that beaver frequent. Surely trout were not
like the European honey bee, making its way across the continent just in
advance of the westering nation, but a native population, established and in
balance like the buffalo and forest primeval. Yet in my reading this winter
(Osborne Russell, Hafen, Morgan, Bil Gilbert, Lewis Garrard and others) I have
found many lean times around quality waters. What, were these guys too stupid
to know how to catch and eat fish? I am puzzled ...

No doubt there were forms of catching fish that many would avoid as unsuitable
"recreation" but though I have seen many references to natives fishing with
weir and spear, why have I not seen reference to the hungry trapper, cached in
Blackfeet country, not wanting to shoot at game for fear of drawing unwelcome
company, filling his meatbag with the produce of stream and pond? And how about
during rendezvous, and for that matter, how about in tribal camps?

Any help solving this mystery for me will be appreciated.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains
Date: 02 Mar 1999 00:19:34 EST

If I remember right, fish is one of those "hard to keep" items.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sidney Porter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains
Date: 01 Mar 1999 23:56:31 -0800

It is, but you can smoke it and it keeps fairly well.  Tastes good, too.

Sidney
-----Original Message-----


>If I remember right, fish is one of those "hard to keep" items.
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Paul Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains
Date: 02 Mar 1999 07:25:13 -0600

JW:  I am writing my AMM paper on this subject, and fishing during the "fur
trade era" generally.  There is a fair amount of material from original
sources that pertains to the beaver-men.  They did not all ignore the trout,
which were abundant.  Rather than retype what will be a fairly long paper,
when complete, with some 50+ citations just as to the fur trade era, would
be something of an ordeal.  However, give me a call and I can direct you to
some interesting reading and will send you and anyone else interested a copy
of the finished paper (around the 1st to middle of March.  I have also been
reproducing period horsehair lines, snelled hooks and flies using period
correct materials and following 17th and 18th century directions as to
construction.  I import the hooks (eyeless), horsehair--yes, the Europeon
variety is a higher grade for this purpose, and silkworm gut for leaders.  I
have been able to document everything (horsehair line, hooks, etc.) ,
including a "cased" rod, from journals and/or supply records, except the
silkworm gut, being used in the Rockies during the period from Lewis and
Clark through 1850.  I love this topic.  Wife complains about my fly
materials (collected since I was 10---decades ago), and assorted piles of
this and that.  Like my mountain man/longhunter clothing, personal gear and
the like, she says she sees junk where I see jewels.  She has been
particularly displeased with the 100 odd books stacked around the computer
as I try and finish my paper.  Oh well, what are wifes for anyway?  Regards,
Paul

512 292-4311
-----Original Message-----


>I'm interested in persuing any leads regarding documentation of fur-trade
era
>mountaineers and trout fishing either for sustenance or recreation during
the
>times when beaver weren't being trapped.
>
>Since trappers were in the water a lot they must have seen the abundance of
>fish in beaver ponds and the waters that beaver frequent. Surely trout were
not
>like the European honey bee, making its way across the continent just in
>advance of the westering nation, but a native population, established and
in
>balance like the buffalo and forest primeval. Yet in my reading this winter
>(Osborne Russell, Hafen, Morgan, Bil Gilbert, Lewis Garrard and others) I
have
>found many lean times around quality waters. What, were these guys too
stupid
>to know how to catch and eat fish? I am puzzled ...
>
>No doubt there were forms of catching fish that many would avoid as
unsuitable
>"recreation" but though I have seen many references to natives fishing with
>weir and spear, why have I not seen reference to the hungry trapper, cached
in
>Blackfeet country, not wanting to shoot at game for fear of drawing
unwelcome
>company, filling his meatbag with the produce of stream and pond? And how
about
>during rendezvous, and for that matter, how about in tribal camps?
>
>Any help solving this mystery for me will be appreciated.
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains
Date: 02 Mar 1999 09:27:24 -0700

JW Stephens <[e-mail]> wrote:

>>I'm interested in persuing any leads regarding documentation of fur-trade era
mountaineers and trout fishing either for sustenance or recreation during the
times when beaver weren't being trapped.<<

Fishing was routine in the Canadian fur trade (1774-1821), including in the
Rocky Mountains. Usually nets were used, but angling, ice fishing (usually
with nets, sometimes with lines), and spear fishing also took place fairly
frequently. (I even have one record of fly fishing!) Trout weighing 25-45
lbs were routinely caught by ice fishing on lakes with lines; David Thompson
described how to do it in detail (Thompson, _Narrative_, 123-124). Pike and
sturgeon were also caught. Many Canadian fur posts were on large lakes, in
order to assure a steady winter food supply of fish (usually whitefish,
caught in nets set under the ice).

Here are some examples of fur trade fishing from the Rockies:

"Took up the nets--not a single fish...Most of the Men went angling of a
kind of Mullet..." 1807, Kootenae House.  David Thompson, _Columbia
Journals_, 54

"As there are many small Fish in the strong Current of the River, we staked
across at the distce of abt 20 ft from one stake to another, to set our Nets
by & keep them steady to the Current." 1807, Kootenae House.  David
Thompson, _Columbia Journals_, 55

"Sent the Men to collect Wood to make a Weir. By 3 pm they supposed they had
enough & began to place the Triangles of heavy green Aspin loaded with
Stones..." 1807, Kootenae House.  David Thompson, _Columbia Journals_, 56;

"In the Evening Mr F McDonald & 2 Men went off to spear Salmon in the Night.
They returned with 5 Salmon..." 1807, Kootenae House.  David Thompson,
_Columbia Journals_, 63

"Began a Salmon Nett of 17 f[atho]ms wrought of twisted holland Twine..."
1807, Kootenae House.  David Thompson, _Columbia Journals_, 64

>>... how about in tribal camps?<<
Most tribes I've read about engaged in fishing, and of course the Natives of
the Pacific Northwest were (and are) skilled salmon fishers. I've been told,
however, that the Blackfoot tribes did not fish. Can anyone confirm that?

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred


[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains
Date: 02 Mar 1999 09:01:46 -0800



JW Stephens wrote:

> I'm interested in persuing any leads regarding documentation of fur-trade era
> mountaineers and trout fishing either for sustenance or recreation during the
> times when beaver weren't being trapped.

JW,

This subject is one of interest to me also. I look forward to Brother Paul's paper
on the topic when he gets it done in March.

One of the things I have noticed in my reading is a goodly lack of reference to
fishing other than the occasional reference to survival fishing  or subsistence
fishing by expeditions. There are tantalizing references to such activity in the
L&C journals and in Washington Irvings' "Astoria" where Irving relates how some
members of the Wilson Price Hunt Expedition were found fishing along the Snake R.
in present day Idaho because they had become lost and were finding no other game
and thus in starving times.

>
>
> Since trappers were in the water a lot they must have seen the abundance of
> fish in beaver ponds and the waters that beaver frequent. Surely trout were not
> like the European honey bee, making its way across the continent just in
> advance of the westering nation, but a native population, established and in
> balance like the buffalo and forest primeval.

Trout and other fish including Salmon were very plentiful in the mountains of the
west when europeans arrived. Much trading with Native Tribes was done for dry cured
fish.

> Yet in my reading this winter
> (Osborne Russell, Hafen, Morgan, Bil Gilbert, Lewis Garrard and others) I have
> found many lean times around quality waters. What, were these guys too stupid
> to know how to catch and eat fish? I am puzzled ...

There are many accounts of how these folks fed themselves that would indicate that
they were not in the habit of eating what the native population was more than
willing to exploit and thus often went hungry. That is not to say that all had such
an attitude. I would suspect that the hunter gatherer traditions of the Indian were
not commonly practiced by whites.

>
>
> No doubt there were forms of catching fish that many would avoid as unsuitable
> "recreation" but though I have seen many references to natives fishing with
> weir and spear, why have I not seen reference to the hungry trapper, cached in
> Blackfeet country, not wanting to shoot at game for fear of drawing unwelcome
> company, filling his meatbag with the produce of stream and pond? And how about
> during rendezvous, and for that matter, how about in tribal camps?

There are a number of references to fish hooks and such being brought west to
trade. Whether they were to be used by the trapper or the indian is what is a
mystery. Could it be that the white trapper did not see such activity as sport or
even a normal way of feeding oneself? Trading for smoked fish is one thing,
catching them as a regular activity may have been another thing entirely.

Brother Paul will undoubtedly have found many of the answers and I am glad to see
someone is pursuing this subject. My comments are just speculation for the most
part based on what little information there is that is readily available. One of
the mistakes I think we make these days is assuming that the normal thinking
processes of our day were in use during an earlier time. What we would see as
obvious now may have been the last thing on "their" minds. My humble thoughts. I
remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains
Date: 02 Mar 1999 17:15:46 -0800

Paul I wrote an article in the T&LR about fishing back in 93 or 94 I know
it was after Rock Creek in UT if I can find a copy I'll send you a copy.
Later Jon T

----------
: From: Paul Jones <[e-mail]>
: To: [e-mail]
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains
: Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 5:25 AM
:
: JW:  I am writing my AMM paper on this subject, and fishing during the
"fur
: trade era" generally



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: More about Texas
Date: 02 Mar 1999 19:29:43 -0600

Even if you aren't Texan or even if you don't particularly like Texans, =
everybody should certainly hold very dear the courage and fidelity shown =
by heroes.  Few people anywhere have accounted themselves better than =
the men who fell at the seige of the Alamo...thirteen days of glory that =
came to a bloody end on March 6, 1836.
Among the things accomplished during the time they purchased with their =
lives was the completion of the Declaration of Independence of the =
Republic of Texas at Washington on the Brazos on March 2, 1836.  At =
least one of my ancestors held a land grant in central Texas at the time =
of the Texas Revolution so my feelings about those events are even more =
personal than many.  So please excuse my shamless pride in the sacrifice =
of those heroes (and those at Goliad and other battles) and of the =
legacy they left for all of us. =20
Lanney Ratcliff, Proud Texan
Thanks to Paul Stevens for posting the following:

Regardless of what ya'll learned in school, today is Independence Day, =
Texas
Independence Day.  In honor of this day, I decided to send ya'll a =
little
reminder of history.



Travis' Appeal for Aid at the Alamo
(24 February 1836)


William Barret Travis and almost two hundred other defenders found
themselves surrounded at the Alamo Mission in San Antonio in late =
February
of 1836. Refusing to surrender, they held off the invading armies of =
Mexican
Dictator Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna for almost two weeks.=20

On March 6, the courageous Texans were overrun and slaughtered by well =
over
2000 Mexicans. The resulting delay of Santa Anna's eastward movement =
gave
other Texans more time to organize, both politically and militarily, and =
to
ultimately defeat and capture Santa Anna at the Battle of San Jacinto,
fought April 21, 1836.=20

The letter below was written by Travis soon after the Mexicans first
appeared in the area around San Antonio. It is often referenced as a =
supreme
example of the virtues of courage and self-sacrifice.=20



Commandancy of the Alamo=20
Bexar, Fby. 24th, 1836=20

To the People of Texas &
all Americans in the world=20
Fellow Citizens & Compatriots=20

I am besieged by a thousand
or more of the Mexicans under
Santa Anna. I have sustained a
continual bombardment &
cannonade for 24 hours & have
not lost a man. The enemy
has demanded a surrender at
discretion, otherwise the garrison
are to be put to the sword if
the fort is taken. I have answered=20
the demand with a cannon
shot, and our flag still waves
proudly from the walls. I
shall never surrender nor retreat.=20

Then, I call on you in the
name of Liberty, of patriotism, &
of everything dear to the American
character, to come to our aid=20
with all dispatch. The enemy is
receiving reinforcements daily &
will no doubt increase to three or
four thousand in four or five days.
If this call is neglected, I am deter-
mined to sustain myself as long as
possible & die like a soldier
who never forgets what is due to
his own honor & that of his
country.=20

Victory or Death=20
William Barret Travis=20
Lt. Col. Comdt.=20

P. S. The Lord is on our side.
When the enemy appeared in sight=20
we had not three bushels of corn.
We have since found in deserted=20
houses 80 or 90 bushels & got into
the walls 20 or 30 head of Beeves.=20

Travis=20



God Bless Texas!!!  (This is my own little inclusion and not part of =
Travis'
letter)


Regards,
Paul Stevens




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas
Date: 02 Mar 1999 20:08:12 -0600

Yes, Travis was a very expressive and literate hero.  On March 3, in the
midst of the seige of the Alamo, Travis wrote to his friend Jesse Grimes:

"Take good care of my little boy.  If the country should be saved, I may
make him a splended fortune; but if the country should be lost, and I should
perish, he will have nothing but the proud recollection that he is the son
of a man who died for his country."

If that don't get you, nothing will.

Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner


-----Original Message-----


>Even if you aren't Texan or even if you don't particularly like Texans,
everybody should certainly hold very dear the courage and fidelity shown by
heroes.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: butch <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains
Date: 02 Mar 1999 18:38:53 -0800

>
> >>... how about in tribal camps?<<
> Most tribes I've read about engaged in fishing, and of course the Natives of
> the Pacific Northwest were (and are) skilled salmon fishers. I've been told,
> however, that the Blackfoot tribes did not fish. Can anyone confirm that?
>
> Your humble & obedient servant,
> Angela Gottfred
>
> [e-mail]


    Hello, Angela:

    In E. A. Wallace's book _Lords of the South Plains_ , about
the Comanches, he specifically states that they did not eat
fish.  It is my impression that none of the buffalo hunting
Indians ate fish, except perhaps in famine conditions.  I'm
sorry I can't be more specific, but I just moved and my
books are buried in storage.  I know Wallace's book is still
in print, as I recently bought a copy from Amazon.com.  It
is the definitive work on the Comanches, as far as I know,
and is fascinating.  I am embarrassed to say that I can't
remember the name of his co-author.

    Best,

    Blue



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: zaslow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Hat Styles
Date: 02 Mar 1999 20:43:56 -0800 (PST)

Hi Todd,

I don't think anyone mentioned this but if you have "Firearms, Traps, &
Tools of the Mountain Men" by Carl P. Russell on pages 5 & 6 it talks a
little about hats.

Best Regards,

Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
________________________________________________________________________________

At 03:41 PM 2/25/99 EST, you wrote:
>Howdy all,
>
>
>        Does anyone know of a site on the net that shows some of the many stlyes of
>mens hats that were popular in the 17th and 18th centuries? Barring that, can
>anyone suggest any book titles which show these styles. I know an the Museum
>of the Mountain Man in Pinedale Wyoming they have a nice large graphic that
>shows about ten stlyes with their names ie, Beau Brummel etc.
>          When doing educational presentations, I'd like to speak a little
>more intelligently about the hats that used so many beaver.
>           Any help would be appreciated.
>
>Happy trails
>
>Todd Glover
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Hat Styles
Date: 02 Mar 1999 23:49:44 EST

Thanks Jerry, I'll read it.

Todd



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sidney Porter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas
Date: 03 Mar 1999 00:14:03 -0800

Viva la Tejas!!!


-----Original Message-----
<[e-mail]>


Even if you aren't Texan or even if you don't particularly like Texans,
everybody should certainly hold very dear the courage and fidelity shown by
heroes.  Few people anywhere have accounted themselves better than the men
who fell at the seige of the Alamo...thirteen days of glory that came to a
bloody end on March 6, 1836.
Among the things accomplished during the time they purchased with their
lives was the completion of the Declaration of Independence of the Republic
of Texas at Washington on the Brazos on March 2, 1836.  At least one of my
ancestors held a land grant in central Texas at the time of the Texas
Revolution so my feelings about those events are even more personal than
many.  So please excuse my shamless pride in the sacrifice of those heroes
(and those at Goliad and other battles) and of the legacy they left for all
of us.
Lanney Ratcliff, Proud Texan
Thanks to Paul Stevens for posting the following:

Regardless of what ya'll learned in school, today is Independence Day, Texas
Independence Day.  In honor of this day, I decided to send ya'll a little
reminder of history.



Travis' Appeal for Aid at the Alamo
(24 February 1836)


William Barret Travis and almost two hundred other defenders found
themselves surrounded at the Alamo Mission in San Antonio in late February
of 1836. Refusing to surrender, they held off the invading armies of Mexican
Dictator Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna for almost two weeks.

On March 6, the courageous Texans were overrun and slaughtered by well over
2000 Mexicans. The resulting delay of Santa Anna's eastward movement gave
other Texans more time to organize, both politically and militarily, and to
ultimately defeat and capture Santa Anna at the Battle of San Jacinto,
fought April 21, 1836.

The letter below was written by Travis soon after the Mexicans first
appeared in the area around San Antonio. It is often referenced as a supreme
example of the virtues of courage and self-sacrifice.



Commandancy of the Alamo
Bexar, Fby. 24th, 1836

To the People of Texas &
all Americans in the world
Fellow Citizens & Compatriots

I am besieged by a thousand
or more of the Mexicans under
Santa Anna. I have sustained a
continual bombardment &
cannonade for 24 hours & have
not lost a man. The enemy
has demanded a surrender at
discretion, otherwise the garrison
are to be put to the sword if
the fort is taken. I have answered
the demand with a cannon
shot, and our flag still waves
proudly from the walls. I
shall never surrender nor retreat.

Then, I call on you in the
name of Liberty, of patriotism, &
of everything dear to the American
character, to come to our aid
with all dispatch. The enemy is
receiving reinforcements daily &
will no doubt increase to three or
four thousand in four or five days.
If this call is neglected, I am deter-
mined to sustain myself as long as
possible & die like a soldier
who never forgets what is due to
his own honor & that of his
country.

Victory or Death
William Barret Travis
Lt. Col. Comdt.

P. S. The Lord is on our side.
When the enemy appeared in sight
we had not three bushels of corn.
We have since found in deserted
houses 80 or 90 bushels & got into
the walls 20 or 30 head of Beeves.

Travis



God Bless Texas!!!  (This is my own little inclusion and not part of Travis'
letter)


Regards,
Paul Stevens






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: MtMan-List: Setting Mail To Post Pone
Date: 03 Mar 1999 15:42:01 -0700 (MST)



I am dumb, someone tell me how to do this.

B

--
"The Price Of Freedom
     Is Not Free"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: MtMan-List: Test
Date: 03 Mar 1999 18:35:49 -0700 (MST)



computer problem

thanks,

--
"The Price Of Freedom
     Is Not Free"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test
Date: 03 Mar 1999 18:55:01 -0700 (MST)



Know it is not subject related, but i need e-mail address for Mountain Man Histo
ry List Owner.

Major computer problem this afternoon, that is cured after total hard drive clean
, and reinstall.  Someone is goofing with computer again.  No I did not open, and
 attachments or files.

Please respond with list owner e-mail address.  [e-mail], is coming back
as "Undeliverable"

Thanks,

B

--
"The Price Of Freedom
     Is Not Free"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test
Date: 03 Mar 1999 21:13:12 EST

bruce, [e-mail] should work.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Paul Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains
Date: 03 Mar 1999 22:13:19 -0600

Thank you very much.  My address is 9306 Roxanna Drive, Austin, Texas 78748.
Despite rumors from Colorado, we still have a bit of dry land.  Paul
-----Original Message-----


>Paul I wrote an article in the T&LR about fishing back in 93 or 94 I know
>it was after Rock Creek in UT if I can find a copy I'll send you a copy.
>Later Jon T
>
>----------
>: From: Paul Jones <[e-mail]>
>: To: [e-mail]
>: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains
>: Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 5:25 AM
>:
>: JW:  I am writing my AMM paper on this subject, and fishing during the
>"fur
>: trade era" generally
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Paul Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas
Date: 03 Mar 1999 22:27:09 -0600

Boys, I grant Travis was a man of the moment and is special to our history.
But remember this is the same man who kept a diary during his years in Texas
detailing his numerous affairs in the foulest manner you can imagine, even
citing how much he paid.  He is also the man who, although still married to
the mother of his beloved son (both living in another state where he had
left them some years before while he sought his fortune in Texas), got
engaged to a respectable young lady in Tejas, and left her a legacy of a
serious "social disease" whose terminal stages of dementia he avoided with
his untimely demise at the Alamo.  Reading the diary (available in all its
glory at the State Archives) gives the other side of his "literary" bent,
and it is sadly a far cry from the eloquence of his missives from the Alamo.
I guess we just need to take our heroes, warts and all.  Paul
-----Original Message-----
<[e-mail]>


>Yes, Travis was a very expressive and literate hero.  On March 3, in the
>midst of the seige of the Alamo, Travis wrote to his friend Jesse Grimes:
>
>"Take good care of my little boy.  If the country should be saved, I may
>make him a splended fortune; but if the country should be lost, and I
should
>perish, he will have nothing but the proud recollection that he is the son
>of a man who died for his country."
>
>If that don't get you, nothing will.
>
>Glenn Darilek
>Iron Burner
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
>
>
>>Even if you aren't Texan or even if you don't particularly like Texans,
>everybody should certainly hold very dear the courage and fidelity shown by
>heroes.
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test
Date: 03 Mar 1999 21:11:06 -0800

Bruce, last message from you was about 5+PM. The last MLML messages I down loaded
came over about 8PM+ (looking in my trash bin and my inbox.

Capt. Lahti'

"BRUCE S. DE LIS" wrote:

> Know it is not subject related, but i need e-mail address for Mountain Man Histo
> ry List Owner.
>
> Major computer problem this afternoon, that is cured after total hard drive clean
> , and reinstall.  Someone is goofing with computer again.  No I did not open, and
>  attachments or files.
>
> Please respond with list owner e-mail address.  [e-mail], is coming back
> as "Undeliverable"
>
> Thanks,
>
> B
>
> --
> "The Price Of Freedom
>      Is Not Free"




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas
Date: 04 Mar 1999 00:22:32 EST

I once read in some book or the other, "that everything in Texas, either
stings, sticks or stinks."  Hmmmm?

Lil griz



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: recipes
Date: 04 Mar 1999 00:34:47 EST

To all my brothers and sisters in the great state of TEXAS, I WAS ONLY
KIDDING!!!!!!

But seriously,  was reading somethin' the other day,( yes I can read) and all
of the meals were based around parched corn.  Can anyone tell me how to parch
corn and/or does anyone have any recipes to pass along.
Thanks, y'all
Wade



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas
Date: 04 Mar 1999 05:59:35 -0600

It IS good advice to watch where you put your hands (or anything else) =
becaues in addition to stinging, sticking and stinking some of the =
varmits down here bite, too.
Y'all come.
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----


>I once read in some book or the other, "that everything in Texas, =
either
>stings, sticks or stinks."  Hmmmm?
>
>Lil griz
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: recipes
Date: 04 Mar 1999 06:22:18 -0600

Some folks use a skillet and grease, but you can just buy Korn Nuts at =
7-11 if that will suit you.  Traditionally dry corn was cooked by =
throwing kernels in hot ashes for a while.=20
I use a sheet cake pan ( a glorified cookie sheet, if you ask me) and =
place a single layer of dried corn kernals in it and place it in a 350 =
degree oven.  After a few minutes you will hear the corn "popping".  The =
corn doesn't make popcorn, rather it "snaps and cracks" and will turn a =
light brown color.  Remove from the oven and cool.  The corn can be =
eaten as is and will store pretty much eternally.  Or the corn can be =
crushed to powder (a blender or food processor works well for this, or =
use a metate or a mortar & pestal) to make pinole, also known as =
rockahominy and other names.  A small handful consumed with the help of =
a big drink of water or eating a large pellet made by mixing a handful =
of pinole with a little water will stick to your ribs better than you =
can imagine.  Some folks season or flavor the pinole with salt or sugar =
and, sometimes, cinnamon.  Suit yourself here, but remember that salt =
tends to draw moisture.
Buy your corn from a health food store or a VERY well stocked grocery =
store.  Feed store corn might have additives that you may not want to =
eat and seed corn will almost certainly have some additives, including =
pesticides and fungicides and=20
God knows what other "cides".  The health food store will possibly have =
blue corn or "Indian" corn.  Even better.
Remember this, plain pinole is bland to the highest degree.  It can be =
counted on to feed you but it is best relegated to "iron ration" status. =
 A steady diet of the stuff will soon have you eating tree bark.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----


>To all my brothers and sisters in the great state of TEXAS, I WAS ONLY
>KIDDING!!!!!!
> =20
>But seriously,  was reading somethin' the other day,( yes I can read) =
and all
>of the meals were based around parched corn.  Can anyone tell me how to =
parch
>corn and/or does anyone have any recipes to pass along. =20
>Thanks, y'all
>Wade=20
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas
Date: 04 Mar 1999 06:43:38 -0600

I have you know I resemble that ! ! !
Pendleton

----------
> From: [e-mail]
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas
> Date: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 11:22 PM
>
> I once read in some book or the other, "that everything in Texas, either
> stings, sticks or stinks."  Hmmmm?
>
> Lil griz



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas
Date: 04 Mar 1999 08:52:59 -0500

And they got big-assed spiders too...<G>

D

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: recipes
Date: 04 Mar 1999 12:12:28 -0800


--------------A20059D5C4A00904EE854ECC
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



[e-mail] wrote:

> To all my brothers and sisters in the great state of TEXAS, I WAS ONLY
> KIDDING!!!!!!
>
> But seriously,  was reading somethin' the other day,( yes I can read) and all
> of the meals were based around parched corn.  Can anyone tell me how to parch
> corn and/or does anyone have any recipes to pass along.
> Thanks, y'all
> Wade

Wade,

I see Lanney sent in a pretty comprehensive post on this subject and there isn't
much to add but I do have a couple of ideas to go with what Lanney sent.

Some folks use the hard kernel indian corn that Lanney mentions and that is what
I like to use too but it is a bit bland to say the least. I do have some friends
that like to use dry sweet corn kernels instead. they puff up like the indian
corn but are not as hard on the teeth and are a naturally sweeter eat. One thing
you can do with indian corn is, like Lanney mentioned, add sugar. I do it in a
skillet just after the kernels stop snapping and are puffed up as much as they
will be. Take granulated brown sugar, maple sugar or syrup and or molasses and
mix in about a 1/4 cup or so while the kernels are still hot. You will need to
reduce the heat a bit so you don't burn the sugars. You want to slowly bring the
sugars up to the point where they melt and start to coat the corn kernels. In the
case of the liquid sugars, you will have to slowly let the moisture in them
evaporate. The drier you can get this mix the better because the sugar coating on
your corn can and will draw moisture and you don't want to start out with sticky
coatings right off. When done, just dump it all out on a big plate or cookie
sheet and let cool. You can then carefully bust it up and bag or store it however
you see fit. I don't recommend that you parch your corn with oil since that will
make it hard to coat with sugar and make it go rancid faster.  Keep it dry! Oh,
yea, Keep it away from your kids. I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'


--------------A20059D5C4A00904EE854ECC
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>

<p>[e-mail] wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>To all my brothers and sisters in the great state
of TEXAS, I WAS ONLY
<br>KIDDING!!!!!!
<p>But seriously,  was reading somethin' the other day,( yes I can
read) and all
<br>of the meals were based around parched corn.  Can anyone tell
me how to parch
<br>corn and/or does anyone have any recipes to pass along.
<br>Thanks, y'all
<br>Wade</blockquote>
Wade,
<p>I see Lanney sent in a pretty comprehensive post on this subject and
there isn't much to add but I do have a couple of ideas to go with what
Lanney sent.
<p>Some folks use the hard kernel indian corn that Lanney mentions and
that is what I like to use too but it is a bit bland to say the least.
I do have some friends that like to use dry sweet corn kernels instead.
they puff up like the indian corn but are not as hard on the teeth and
are a naturally sweeter eat. One thing you can do with indian corn is,
like Lanney mentioned, add sugar. I do it in a skillet just after the kernels
stop snapping and are puffed up as much as they will be. Take granulated
brown sugar, maple sugar or syrup and or molasses and mix in about a 1/4
cup or so while the kernels are still hot. You will need to reduce the
heat a bit so you don't burn the sugars. You want to slowly bring the sugars
up to the point where they melt and start to coat the corn kernels. In
the case of the liquid sugars, you will have to slowly let the moisture
in them evaporate. The drier you can get this mix the better because the
sugar coating on your corn can and will draw moisture and you don't want
to start out with sticky coatings right off. When done, just dump it all
out on a big plate or cookie sheet and let cool. You can then carefully
bust it up and bag or store it however you see fit.<i> </i>I don't recommend
that you parch your corn with oil since that will make it hard to coat
with sugar and make it go rancid faster.  Keep it dry! Oh, yea, Keep
it away from your kids. I remain......
<p>YMOS
<br>Capt. Lahti'
<br> </html>

--------------A20059D5C4A00904EE854ECC--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: recipes
Date: 04 Mar 1999 17:20:06 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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Capt
That is a cracker jack of a recipe.  If I weren't a dang diabetic I =
would rush into the kitchen and whup up a batch right now.  I'm willing =
to bet that if you don't get some hot water into that sugared up skillet =
pretty soon after taking out the glazed corn She Who Must Be Obeyed will =
be less that happy.  Way less.
YMOS
Lanney
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Thursday, March 04, 1999 2:18 PM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: recipes
   =20
   =20
     =20
    [e-mail] wrote:=20

        To all my brothers and sisters in the great state of TEXAS, I =
WAS ONLY=20
        KIDDING!!!!!!=20
        But seriously,  was reading somethin' the other day,( yes I can =
read) and all=20
        of the meals were based around parched corn.  Can anyone tell me =
how to parch=20
        corn and/or does anyone have any recipes to pass along.=20
        Thanks, y'all=20
        Wade

    Wade,=20
    I see Lanney sent in a pretty comprehensive post on this subject and =
there isn't much to add but I do have a couple of ideas to go with what =
Lanney sent.=20

    Some folks use the hard kernel indian corn that Lanney mentions and =
that is what I like to use too but it is a bit bland to say the least. I =
do have some friends that like to use dry sweet corn kernels instead. =
they puff up like the indian corn but are not as hard on the teeth and =
are a naturally sweeter eat. One thing you can do with indian corn is, =
like Lanney mentioned, add sugar. I do it in a skillet just after the =
kernels stop snapping and are puffed up as much as they will be. Take =
granulated brown sugar, maple sugar or syrup and or molasses and mix in =
about a 1/4 cup or so while the kernels are still hot. You will need to =
reduce the heat a bit so you don't burn the sugars. You want to slowly =
bring the sugars up to the point where they melt and start to coat the =
corn kernels. In the case of the liquid sugars, you will have to slowly =
let the moisture in them evaporate. The drier you can get this mix the =
better because the sugar coating on your corn can and will draw moisture =
and you don't want to start out with sticky coatings right off. When =
done, just dump it all out on a big plate or cookie sheet and let cool. =
You can then carefully bust it up and bag or store it however you see =
fit. I don't recommend that you parch your corn with oil since that will =
make it hard to coat with sugar and make it go rancid faster.  Keep it =
dry! Oh, yea, Keep it away from your kids. I remain......=20

    YMOS=20
    Capt. Lahti'=20
     =20


------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE6663.3FA18CE0
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 =
transitional//en">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000>Capt</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000></FONT>That is a cracker jack of a =
recipe.  If I=20
weren't a dang diabetic I would rush into the kitchen and whup up a =
batch right=20
now.  I'm willing to bet that if you don't get some hot water into =
that=20
sugared up skillet pretty soon after taking out the glazed corn She Who =
Must Be=20
Obeyed will be less that happy.  Way less.</DIV>
<DIV>YMOS</DIV>
<DIV>Lanney</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Roger Lahti <<A=20
    href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>To: =
</B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Thursday, March 04, 1999 2:18 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: =
MtMan-List:=20
    recipes<BR><BR></DIV></FONT> =20
    <P><A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> =
wrote:=20
    <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE =3D CITE>To all my brothers and sisters in the =
great=20
        state of TEXAS, I WAS ONLY <BR>KIDDING!!!!!!=20
        <P>But seriously,  was reading somethin' the other day,( =
yes I can=20
        read) and all <BR>of the meals were based around parched =
corn.  Can=20
        anyone tell me how to parch <BR>corn and/or does anyone have any =
recipes=20
        to pass along. <BR>Thanks, y'all <BR>Wade</P></BLOCKQUOTE>Wade,=20
    <P>I see Lanney sent in a pretty comprehensive post on this subject =
and=20
    there isn't much to add but I do have a couple of ideas to go with =
what=20
    Lanney sent.=20
    <P>Some folks use the hard kernel indian corn that Lanney mentions =
and that=20
    is what I like to use too but it is a bit bland to say the least. I =
do have=20
    some friends that like to use dry sweet corn kernels instead. they =
puff up=20
    like the indian corn but are not as hard on the teeth and are a =
naturally=20
    sweeter eat. One thing you can do with indian corn is, like Lanney=20
    mentioned, add sugar. I do it in a skillet just after the kernels =
stop=20
    snapping and are puffed up as much as they will be. Take granulated =
brown=20
    sugar, maple sugar or syrup and or molasses and mix in about a 1/4 =
cup or so=20
    while the kernels are still hot. You will need to reduce the heat a =
bit so=20
    you don't burn the sugars. You want to slowly bring the sugars up to =
the=20
    point where they melt and start to coat the corn kernels. In the =
case of the=20
    liquid sugars, you will have to slowly let the moisture in them =
evaporate.=20
    The drier you can get this mix the better because the sugar coating =
on your=20
    corn can and will draw moisture and you don't want to start out with =
sticky=20
    coatings right off. When done, just dump it all out on a big plate =
or cookie=20
    sheet and let cool. You can then carefully bust it up and bag or =
store it=20
    however you see fit.<I> </I>I don't recommend that you parch your =
corn with=20
    oil since that will make it hard to coat with sugar and make it go =
rancid=20
    faster.  Keep it dry! Oh, yea, Keep it away from your kids. I=20
    remain......=20
    <P>YMOS <BR>Capt. Lahti' <BR>  </P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE6663.3FA18CE0--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas
Date: 04 Mar 1999 19:02:47 -0600

Pablo,
  Unfortunately you are exactly right about Travis.  Given that the
treatment for social diseases in that time was large doses of mercury, and
the term mad as a hatter refers to the exposure to mercury, it may well be
that our Hero wasn't quite right.  Never the less, that letter is the stuff
of legends and every time I read it makes it what little hair I have stand
on end.
Pendleton

----------
> From: Paul Jones <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas
> Date: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 10:27 PM
>
> Boys, I grant Travis was a man of the moment and is special to our
history.
> But remember this is the same man who kept a diary during his years in
Texas
> detailing his numerous affairs in the foulest manner you can imagine,
even
> citing how much he paid.  He is also the man who, although still married
to
> the mother of his beloved son (both living in another state where he had
> left them some years before while he sought his fortune in Texas), got
> engaged to a respectable young lady in Tejas, and left her a legacy of a
> serious "social disease" whose terminal stages of dementia he avoided
with
> his untimely demise at the Alamo.  Reading the diary (available in all
its
> glory at the State Archives) gives the other side of his "literary" bent,
> and it is sadly a far cry from the eloquence of his missives from the
Alamo.
> I guess we just need to take our heroes, warts and all.  Paul
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Glenn Darilek <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>; AMM
> <[e-mail]>
> Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 8:05 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas
>
>
> >Yes, Travis was a very expressive and literate hero.  On March 3, in the
> >midst of the seige of the Alamo, Travis wrote to his friend Jesse
Grimes:
> >
> >"Take good care of my little boy.  If the country should be saved, I may
> >make him a splended fortune; but if the country should be lost, and I
> should
> >perish, he will have nothing but the proud recollection that he is the
son
> >of a man who died for his country."
> >
> >If that don't get you, nothing will.
> >
> >Glenn Darilek
> >Iron Burner
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
> >
> >
> >>Even if you aren't Texan or even if you don't particularly like Texans,
> >everybody should certainly hold very dear the courage and fidelity shown
by
> >heroes.
> >
> >
> >
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas
Date: 04 Mar 1999 19:07:26 -0600

Oh hell Dennis, they ain't nothing but bugs.
Pendleton

----------
> From: Dennis Miles <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas
> Date: Thursday, March 04, 1999 7:52 AM
>
> And they got big-assed spiders too...<G>
>
> D
>
>    "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>   Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>     http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas
Date: 04 Mar 1999 19:19:59 -0700

Paul,
Saw a short article about additional information has been found at an estate
sale (papers or a journal) written about Travis and Davey C., according to
the article the information has been checked and found to have belonged to
one of Travis's officers.
There is a updated book being written about this new found information,
guess Travis was complaining about Davey crying as the fight neared, and had
to be moved away from his men for a period, damn that sure screwed up by
idea of this man - bet Walt Disney rolled over on this one. That was pretty
much all that was of interest in this article seen a month or two ago in the
Denver paper.

If we had the ability to see what really happened in many of these events,
boy would that change history. Saw an article that was written years ago
about some of the different groups that fought for different causes from the
F&I War right up to Nam. Information was from journals, newspaper interviews
and government reports, seems many of the one's that fought in many of the
engagement weren't there for God and country as we have been led to believe.
Many just flat liked to fight, enjoy the soils of war, and the benefits of
wine-women-and song, along with anything else found, the older we get the
more we find how we have been led down a pretty little lane.

Later

Buck

-----Original Message-----


>Boys, I grant Travis was a man of the moment and is special to our history.
>But remember this is the same man who kept a diary during his years in
Texas
>detailing his numerous affairs in the foulest manner you can imagine, even
>citing how much he paid.  He is also the man who, although still married to
>the mother of his beloved son (both living in another state where he had
>left them some years before while he sought his fortune in Texas), got
>engaged to a respectable young lady in Tejas, and left her a legacy of a
>serious "social disease" whose terminal stages of dementia he avoided with
>his untimely demise at the Alamo.  Reading the diary (available in all its
>glory at the State Archives) gives the other side of his "literary" bent,
>and it is sadly a far cry from the eloquence of his missives from the
Alamo.
>I guess we just need to take our heroes, warts and all.  Paul
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Glenn Darilek <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>; AMM
><[e-mail]>
>Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 8:05 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas
>
>
>>Yes, Travis was a very expressive and literate hero.  On March 3, in the
>>midst of the seige of the Alamo, Travis wrote to his friend Jesse Grimes:
>>
>>"Take good care of my little boy.  If the country should be saved, I may
>>make him a splended fortune; but if the country should be lost, and I
>should
>>perish, he will have nothing but the proud recollection that he is the son
>>of a man who died for his country."
>>
>>If that don't get you, nothing will.
>>
>>Glenn Darilek
>>Iron Burner
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
>>
>>
>>>Even if you aren't Texan or even if you don't particularly like Texans,
>>everybody should certainly hold very dear the courage and fidelity shown
by
>>heroes.
>>
>>
>>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: recipes
Date: 04 Mar 1999 20:09:07 -0700

--====48554951495250525357===1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

People in Colorado never apologize to  Texans

DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants

Roger Lahti wrote:
>=A0
>[e-mail] wrote:
>To all my brothers and sisters in the great state of TEXAS, I WAS ONLY
>KIDDING!!!!!!
>But seriously,=A0 was reading somethin' the other day,( yes I can read) =
and all
>of the meals were based around parched corn.=A0 Can anyone tell me how to =
parch
>corn and/or does anyone have any recipes to pass along.
>Thanks, y'all
>Wade
>Wade,
>I see Lanney sent in a pretty comprehensive post on this subject and =
there =
>isn't much to add but I do have a couple of ideas to go with what Lanney =
sent.
>Some folks use the hard kernel indian corn that Lanney mentions and that =
is =
>what I like to use too but it is a bit bland to say the least. I do have =
some =
>friends that like to use dry sweet corn kernels instead. they puff up =
like the =
>indian corn but are not as hard on the teeth and are a naturally sweeter =
eat. One =
>thing you can do with indian corn is, like Lanney mentioned, add sugar. I =
do it in a =
>skillet just after the kernels stop snapping and are puffed up as much as =
they =
>will be. Take granulated brown sugar, maple sugar or syrup and or =
molasses and mix =
>in about a 1/4 cup or so while the kernels are still hot. You will need =
to =
>reduce the heat a bit so you don't burn the sugars. You want to slowly =
bring the =
>sugars up to the point where they melt and start to coat the corn kernels.=
 In the case =
>of the liquid sugars, you will have to slowly let the moisture in them =
>evaporate. The drier you can get this mix the better because the sugar =
coating on your =
>corn can and will draw moisture and you don't want to start out with =
sticky coatings =
>right off. When done, just dump it all out on a big plate or cookie sheet =
and =
>let cool. You can then carefully bust it up and bag or store it however =
you see =
>fit. I don't recommend that you parch your corn with oil since that will =
make it =
>hard to coat with sugar and make it go rancid faster.=A0 Keep it dry! Oh, =
yea, Keep it =
>away from your kids. I remain......
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>=A0
>
>RFC822 header
>-----------------------------------
>
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<HTML><HEAD></HEAD><BODY><FONT FACE=3D"Geneva" SIZE=3D3 COLOR=3D"#000000">=
People =
in Colorado never apologize to  Texans</FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Monaco" SIZE=3D1 COLOR=3D"#000000"><BR>
<BR>
DON AND PHYLLIS =
KEAS ---LIving History Consultants</FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Geneva" SIZE=3D3 COLOR=3D"#000000"><BR>
<BR>
Roger Lahti wrote:</FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Geneva" SIZE=3D2 COLOR=3D"#000000"><BR>
> <BR>
></FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Geneva" SIZE=3D2 COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>[e-mail]</U></FONT>=
<FONT =
FACE=3D"Geneva" SIZE=3D2 COLOR=3D"#000000"> wrote:<BR>
>To all my =
brothers and sisters in the great state =
of TEXAS, I WAS ONLY<BR>
>KIDDING!!!!!!<BR>
>But =
seriously,  was reading somethin' the =
other day,( yes I can read) and all<BR>
>of =
the meals were based around parched corn.  =
Can anyone tell me how to parch<BR>
>corn =
and/or does anyone have any recipes to pass =
along.<BR>
>Thanks, y'all<BR>
>Wade<BR>
>Wade,<BR>
>I =
see Lanney sent in a pretty comprehensive =
post on this subject and there <BR>
>isn't =
much to add but I do have a couple of ideas =
to go with what Lanney sent.<BR>
>Some =
folks use the hard kernel indian corn that =
Lanney mentions and that is <BR>
>what =
I like to use too but it is a bit bland to =
say the least. I do have some <BR>
>friends =
that like to use dry sweet corn kernels =
instead. they puff up like the <BR>
>indian =
corn but are not as hard on the teeth and =
are a naturally sweeter eat. One <BR>
>thing =
you can do with indian corn is, like Lanney =
mentioned, add sugar. I do it in a <BR>
>skillet =
just after the kernels stop snapping and =
are puffed up as much as they <BR>
>will =
be. Take granulated brown sugar, maple sugar =
or syrup and or molasses and mix <BR>
>in =
about a 1/4 cup or so while the kernels =
are still hot. You will need to <BR>
>reduce =
the heat a bit so you don't burn the sugars. =
You want to slowly bring the <BR>
>sugars =
up to the point where they melt and start =
to coat the corn kernels. In the case <BR>
>of =
the liquid sugars, you will have to slowly =
let the moisture in them <BR>
>evaporate. =
The drier you can get this mix the better =
because the sugar coating on your <BR>
>corn =
can and will draw moisture and you don't =
want to start out with sticky coatings <BR>
>right =
off. When done, just dump it all out on =
a big plate or cookie sheet and <BR>
>let =
cool. You can then carefully bust it up =
and bag or store it however you see <BR>
>fit. =
I don't recommend that you parch your corn =
with oil since that will make it <BR>
>hard =
to coat with sugar and make it go rancid =
faster.  Keep it dry! Oh, yea, Keep =
it <BR>
>away from your kids. I remain......<BR>
>YMOS<BR>
>Capt. =
Lahti'<BR>
> <BR>
><BR>
>RFC822 =
header<BR>
>-----------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
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>Date: Thu, =
04 Mar 1999 12:12:28 -0800<BR>
>From: Roger =
Lahti <</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Geneva" SIZE=3D2 COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>=
[e-mail]</U></FONT><FONT =
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: butch <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas
Date: 04 Mar 1999 19:27:34 -0800

larry pendleton wrote:
>
> Pablo,
>   Unfortunately you are exactly right about Travis.  Given that the
> treatment for social diseases in that time was large doses of mercury, and
> the term mad as a hatter refers to the exposure to mercury, it may well be
> that our Hero wasn't quite right.  Never the less, that letter is the stuff
> of legends and every time I read it makes it what little hair I have stand
> on end.
> Pendleton


    Heroes are human beings who happen to get it together at
the right time and in the right place.  I don't mean to take
anything away from Travis or Crockett by saying that;  I
mean that all humans are prone to mistakes and bad moves.
What counts is how we stand up when the crunch comes.  And
all these men stood up just fine.

    As to crying, meeting death on the moment in the heat of a
fight is one thing.  Seeing it coming for days and knowing
damn well you *are* going to die is quite another.  Standing
and dying in place when the time comes and doing the best
you can with it is what counts, at least with me.  All these
men did that.  Could I?  Could you?  I dunno, but I sure
respect any man or woman who has.  Crazy or afraid or
anything else.  The fact that I can respect a brave and
courageous act doesn't mean that I necessarily admire the
rest of someone's life, and vice versa.  Just gotta play it
as it lays, I guess.


    Butch



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Paul Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas
Date: 04 Mar 1999 21:34:28 -0600

I am looking forward to seeing the new book.

The Mexicans (not the military) were in close communication with the
defenders.  A number of their hispanic relatives died in the fight on the
Texan side.  Many in Bexar (San Antonio) were well aware that many of the
defenders would prefer a way out.  One Mexican army officer stated that the
final attack was moved up so as to forstall what Santa Anna understood to be
an offer of surrender.  Who is to say?  The recently auctioned tome by an
officer who greatly respected the Texians and did not care at all for his
General states that Crockett did surrender on an offer of quarter, but that
Santa Anna refused to honor the grant and some of his officers or men hacked
Crockett and and several others to death with sabers.  The officer said that
most Mexican officers were greatly offended by the action and that Crockett
and the others died with dignity.

That report raises ire with some of the Crockett fans, but interestingly
enough the same general story was reported in several US newspapers within a
month or so of the battle.

Also of note is that we now know of at least three men who got out on the
morning of the final battle during the general confusion.  Two are
identified.  One of them died of wounds within weeks.  The third is unknown.
He managed to get to a bridge over the river and hid.  Some hours after the
fight had ended a Mexican woman getting water saw him and called some
troops.  He was killed on the spot.

Regardless, it was a historic moment and the time given Houston was a factor
in his ultimate victory.

Some really interesting reading is a set of depositions given in a libel and
slander suit from the late 1850's or early 60's.  One of the participants at
San Jacinto was spreading the story that an officer had killed an unarmed
Mexican woman during the battle.  The officer denied it and sued.  Houston
and four or five others gave testimony and the case was dropped.  He did
kill her as alleged.  What is unique about the depositions is that they are
the only known eye-witness accounts of that fight and were not recorded
until some 20 odd years.  I think that the fight was so brutal and the men
so out of control that most wanted to forget the details of the fight.  The
only Mexican buried after the battle was the woman.  The rest of the bodies
were left to rot and the remains were a major tourist attraction for several
years with steam boats from the new town of Houston making the run on a
regular schedule.  The old lady who owned the land petitioned the new
government to remove or bury the bodies,  but her request was never honored.

As a final thought, Houston and Texas were damned lucky that Santa Anna was
a worm and that one or more of the general officers still in the field did
not ignore the order to return to Mexico.  The best troops and officers were
still at hand and I think could have taken Houston out without much of a
fight.  Most of his men were out of powder and balls after San Jacinto and a
goodly percentage of their rifles were broken or damaged from pounding on
Mexican skulls.  It would have been interesting to have had the fight
continue, if for no other reason than to learn whether Jackson would have
let his General and troops on the La. border enter the fray.

Get a copy of the Book "Empire of Bones."  It recounts the battle of San
Jacinto and uses the material from the depositions to some degree.

That was an amazing era, and the mixture of bravery and knavery was
remarkably balanced.  I take nothing from those men, they won the day and
history records their glory.  However, just below the surface, the story
gets a bit murky, and to me, all the more interesting.

Sorry to have preached for so long, but I love Texas history--both the
public view and what appear to be the real stories.  Each has its place and
each can teach us a great deal.

Sometime get me wound up about the early rangers.  That is truely a story
with a mixed bag of good and evil, bravery and down right foolishness, and
one hell of a lot of misreporting.  But it is a tale worth knowing about
both sides of the nickel as it were, and another example of why Texans are
larger than life--at least that is what my first grade teacher told me.

Paul
-----Original Message-----


>Paul,
>Saw a short article about additional information has been found at an
estate
>sale (papers or a journal) written about Travis and Davey C., according to
>the article the information has been checked and found to have belonged to
>one of Travis's officers.
>There is a updated book being written about this new found information,
>guess Travis was complaining about Davey crying as the fight neared, and
had
>to be moved away from his men for a period, damn that sure screwed up by
>idea of this man - bet Walt Disney rolled over on this one. That was pretty
>much all that was of interest in this article seen a month or two ago in
the
>Denver paper.
>
>If we had the ability to see what really happened in many of these events,
>boy would that change history. Saw an article that was written years ago
>about some of the different groups that fought for different causes from
the
>F&I War right up to Nam. Information was from journals, newspaper
interviews
>and government reports, seems many of the one's that fought in many of the
>engagement weren't there for God and country as we have been led to
believe.
>Many just flat liked to fight, enjoy the soils of war, and the benefits of
>wine-women-and song, along with anything else found, the older we get the
>more we find how we have been led down a pretty little lane.
>
>Later
>
>Buck
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Paul Jones <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 9:25 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas
>
>
>>Boys, I grant Travis was a man of the moment and is special to our
history.
>>But remember this is the same man who kept a diary during his years in
>Texas
>>detailing his numerous affairs in the foulest manner you can imagine, even
>>citing how much he paid.  He is also the man who, although still married
to
>>the mother of his beloved son (both living in another state where he had
>>left them some years before while he sought his fortune in Texas), got
>>engaged to a respectable young lady in Tejas, and left her a legacy of a
>>serious "social disease" whose terminal stages of dementia he avoided with
>>his untimely demise at the Alamo.  Reading the diary (available in all its
>>glory at the State Archives) gives the other side of his "literary" bent,
>>and it is sadly a far cry from the eloquence of his missives from the
>Alamo.
>>I guess we just need to take our heroes, warts and all.  Paul
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Glenn Darilek <[e-mail]>
>>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>; AMM
>><[e-mail]>
>>Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 8:05 PM
>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas
>>
>>
>>>Yes, Travis was a very expressive and literate hero.  On March 3, in the
>>>midst of the seige of the Alamo, Travis wrote to his friend Jesse Grimes:
>>>
>>>"Take good care of my little boy.  If the country should be saved, I may
>>>make him a splended fortune; but if the country should be lost, and I
>>should
>>>perish, he will have nothing but the proud recollection that he is the
son
>>>of a man who died for his country."
>>>
>>>If that don't get you, nothing will.
>>>
>>>Glenn Darilek
>>>Iron Burner
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Even if you aren't Texan or even if you don't particularly like Texans,
>>>everybody should certainly hold very dear the courage and fidelity shown
>by
>>>heroes.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Book on Texas
Date: 04 Mar 1999 20:48:46 -0700

I just read a good one a few months ago called Three Roads to Texas or
Three Rode to Texas.  Loaned it out so not sure of the exact title, but it
is good.  Gives the lives of Crocket, Bowie and Travis and it doesn't sugar
coat anything.  The early lives of all three will surprise you, but the
fact remains they were all three hereos when it counted.

DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas
Date: 04 Mar 1999 23:01:17 -0500

Pablo wrote(Among other things):

"Texans are larger than life"

>>And windy as well....Serious Pablo, I would much rather have you up here
around the fire spinin these yarns in person like, sharin a cup or 4 with
me.. Besides, it is hurtin' my brain to sound out and cipher all these
words...<BG>

D

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: recipes
Date: 04 Mar 1999 22:30:20 -0800


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Ratcliff wrote:

>  CaptThat is a cracker jack of a recipe.  If I weren't a dang diabetic
> I would rush into the kitchen and whup up a batch right now.  I'm
> willing to bet that if you don't get some hot water into that sugared
> up skillet pretty soon after taking out the glazed corn She Who Must
> Be Obeyed will be less that happy.  Way less.YMOSLanney
>
> Lanney,
>
> Good point about getting the sugar out of the skillet, but of course
> the secret is in not letting the skillet and such to get that hotin
> the first place. You really only need enough heat to get the sugars to
> liquify. Beyond that and they will burn. Then you will be in deep
> unhappyness. I remain.....
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>      -----Original Message-----
>      From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
>      To: [e-mail]
>      <[e-mail]>
>      Date: Thursday, March 04, 1999 2:18 PM
>      Subject: Re: MtMan-List: recipes
>
>
>      [e-mail] wrote:
>
>     > To all my brothers and sisters in the great state of
>     > TEXAS, I WAS ONLY
>     > KIDDING!!!!!!
>     >
>     > But seriously,  was reading somethin' the other day,( yes
>     > I can read) and all
>     > of the meals were based around parched corn.  Can anyone
>     > tell me how to parch
>     > corn and/or does anyone have any recipes to pass along.
>     > Thanks, y'all
>     > Wade
>
>      Wade,
>
>      I see Lanney sent in a pretty comprehensive post on this
>      subject and there isn't much to add but I do have a couple
>      of ideas to go with what Lanney sent.
>
>      Some folks use the hard kernel indian corn that Lanney
>      mentions and that is what I like to use too but it is a bit
>      bland to say the least. I do have some friends that like to
>      use dry sweet corn kernels instead. they puff up like the
>      indian corn but are not as hard on the teeth and are a
>      naturally sweeter eat. One thing you can do with indian corn
>      is, like Lanney mentioned, add sugar. I do it in a skillet
>      just after the kernels stop snapping and are puffed up as
>      much as they will be. Take granulated brown sugar, maple
>      sugar or syrup and or molasses and mix in about a 1/4 cup or
>      so while the kernels are still hot. You will need to reduce
>      the heat a bit so you don't burn the sugars. You want to
>      slowly bring the sugars up to the point where they melt and
>      start to coat the corn kernels. In the case of the liquid
>      sugars, you will have to slowly let the moisture in them
>      evaporate. The drier you can get this mix the better because
>      the sugar coating on your corn can and will draw moisture
>      and you don't want to start out with sticky coatings right
>      off. When done, just dump it all out on a big plate or
>      cookie sheet and let cool. You can then carefully bust it up
>      and bag or store it however you see fit. I don't recommend
>      that you parch your corn with oil since that will make it
>      hard to coat with sugar and make it go rancid faster.  Keep
>      it dry! Oh, yea, Keep it away from your kids. I remain......
>
>      YMOS
>      Capt. Lahti'
>
>

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<p>Ratcliff wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE> <font color="#000000">Capt</font>That is a
cracker jack of a recipe.  If I weren't a dang diabetic I would rush
into the kitchen and whup up a batch right now.  I'm willing to bet
that if you don't get some hot water into that sugared up skillet pretty
soon after taking out the glazed corn She Who Must Be Obeyed will be less
that happy.  Way less.YMOSLanney
<p>Lanney,
<p>Good point about getting the sugar out of the skillet, but of course
the secret is in not letting the skillet and such to get that hotin the
first place. You really only need enough heat to get the sugars to liquify.
Beyond that and they will burn. Then you will be in deep unhappyness. I
remain.....
<p>YMOS
<br>Capt. Lahti'
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><b><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>-----Original
Message-----</font></font></b>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1><b>From: </b>Roger Lahti <<a href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a>
<<a href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1><b>Date: </b>Thursday, March 04, 1999
2:18 PM</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1><b>Subject: </b>Re: MtMan-List: recipes</font></font>
<br>
<p><a href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a> wrote:
<blockquote TYPE = CITE>To all my brothers and sisters in the great state
of TEXAS, I WAS ONLY
<br>KIDDING!!!!!!
<p>But seriously,  was reading somethin' the other day,( yes I can
read) and all
<br>of the meals were based around parched corn.  Can anyone tell
me how to parch
<br>corn and/or does anyone have any recipes to pass along.
<br>Thanks, y'all
<br>Wade</blockquote>
Wade,
<p>I see Lanney sent in a pretty comprehensive post on this subject and
there isn't much to add but I do have a couple of ideas to go with what
Lanney sent.
<p>Some folks use the hard kernel indian corn that Lanney mentions and
that is what I like to use too but it is a bit bland to say the least.
I do have some friends that like to use dry sweet corn kernels instead.
they puff up like the indian corn but are not as hard on the teeth and
are a naturally sweeter eat. One thing you can do with indian corn is,
like Lanney mentioned, add sugar. I do it in a skillet just after the kernels
stop snapping and are puffed up as much as they will be. Take granulated
brown sugar, maple sugar or syrup and or molasses and mix in about a 1/4
cup or so while the kernels are still hot. You will need to reduce the
heat a bit so you don't burn the sugars. You want to slowly bring the sugars
up to the point where they melt and start to coat the corn kernels. In
the case of the liquid sugars, you will have to slowly let the moisture
in them evaporate. The drier you can get this mix the better because the
sugar coating on your corn can and will draw moisture and you don't want
to start out with sticky coatings right off. When done, just dump it all
out on a big plate or cookie sheet and let cool. You can then carefully
bust it up and bag or store it however you see fit.<i> </i>I don't recommend
that you parch your corn with oil since that will make it hard to coat
with sugar and make it go rancid faster.  Keep it dry! Oh, yea, Keep
it away from your kids. I remain......
<p>YMOS
<br>Capt. Lahti'
<br> </blockquote>
</blockquote>

</body>
</html>

--------------1B1FE67F5CC19B6D9326BB5A--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: butch <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: recipes
Date: 04 Mar 1999 23:08:18 -0800

> > Good point about getting the sugar out of the skillet,
> > but of course the secret is in not letting the skillet
> > and such to get that hotin the first place. You really
> > only need enough heat to get the sugars to liquify.
> > Beyond that and they will burn. Then you will be in deep
> > unhappyness. I remain.....
> >
> > YMOS
> > Capt. Lahti'
> >
> >
> >    Gents;

    If all else fails, and you thought to use a cast iron
skillet in the first place.... take it outside and stick it
in the middle of a good campfire.  That'll burn off almost
anything stuck hopelessly to it and won't hurt the cast
iron.  With sugar, pouring some boiling water in the skillet
right after you're done using it, or fill it with hot water
and leave it on the fire to boil for awhile.  That will work
with any skillet.


    Butch

    champion sticker-of-stuff-to-skillets for 40 years
> >
> >
> >      -----Original Message-----
> >      From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
> >      To: [e-mail]
> >      <[e-mail]>
> >      Date: Thursday, March 04, 1999 2:18 PM
> >      Subject: Re: MtMan-List: recipes
> >
> >
> >      [e-mail] wrote:
> >
> >     > To all my brothers and sisters in the great
> >     > state of TEXAS, I WAS ONLY
> >     > KIDDING!!!!!!
> >     >
> >     > But seriously,  was reading somethin' the
> >     > other day,( yes I can read) and all
> >     > of the meals were based around parched
> >     > corn.  Can anyone tell me how to parch
> >     > corn and/or does anyone have any recipes to
> >     > pass along.
> >     > Thanks, y'all
> >     > Wade
> >
> >      Wade,
> >
> >      I see Lanney sent in a pretty comprehensive
> >      post on this subject and there isn't much to
> >      add but I do have a couple of ideas to go with
> >      what Lanney sent.
> >
> >      Some folks use the hard kernel indian corn
> >      that Lanney mentions and that is what I like
> >      to use too but it is a bit bland to say the
> >      least. I do have some friends that like to use
> >      dry sweet corn kernels instead. they puff up
> >      like the indian corn but are not as hard on
> >      the teeth and are a naturally sweeter eat. One
> >      thing you can do with indian corn is, like
> >      Lanney mentioned, add sugar. I do it in a
> >      skillet just after the kernels stop snapping
> >      and are puffed up as much as they will be.
> >      Take granulated brown sugar, maple sugar or
> >      syrup and or molasses and mix in about a 1/4
> >      cup or so while the kernels are still hot. You
> >      will need to reduce the heat a bit so you
> >      don't burn the sugars. You want to slowly
> >      bring the sugars up to the point where they
> >      melt and start to coat the corn kernels. In
> >      the case of the liquid sugars, you will have
> >      to slowly let the moisture in them evaporate.
> >      The drier you can get this mix the better
> >      because the sugar coating on your corn can and
> >      will draw moisture and you don't want to start
> >      out with sticky coatings right off. When done,
> >      just dump it all out on a big plate or cookie
> >      sheet and let cool. You can then carefully
> >      bust it up and bag or store it however you see
> >      fit. I don't recommend that you parch your
> >      corn with oil since that will make it hard to
> >      coat with sugar and make it go rancid faster.
> >      Keep it dry! Oh, yea, Keep it away from your
> >      kids. I remain......
> >
> >      YMOS
> >      Capt. Lahti'
> >
> >



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: butch <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: AGH!
Date: 04 Mar 1999 23:12:06 -0800

Sorry about that last post.  I sure didn't scroll down far
enough to delete stuff, did I?

    Butch



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Paul Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas
Date: 05 Mar 1999 06:53:28 -0600

Butch:  Very well expressed.  Thanks.  Paul
-----Original Message-----


>larry pendleton wrote:
>>
>> Pablo,
>>   Unfortunately you are exactly right about Travis.  Given that the
>> treatment for social diseases in that time was large doses of mercury,
and
>> the term mad as a hatter refers to the exposure to mercury, it may well
be
>> that our Hero wasn't quite right.  Never the less, that letter is the
stuff
>> of legends and every time I read it makes it what little hair I have
stand
>> on end.
>> Pendleton
>
>
> Heroes are human beings who happen to get it together at
>the right time and in the right place.  I don't mean to take
>anything away from Travis or Crockett by saying that;  I
>mean that all humans are prone to mistakes and bad moves.
>What counts is how we stand up when the crunch comes.  And
>all these men stood up just fine.
>
> As to crying, meeting death on the moment in the heat of a
>fight is one thing.  Seeing it coming for days and knowing
>damn well you *are* going to die is quite another.  Standing
>and dying in place when the time comes and doing the best
>you can with it is what counts, at least with me.  All these
>men did that.  Could I?  Could you?  I dunno, but I sure
>respect any man or woman who has.  Crazy or afraid or
>anything else.  The fact that I can respect a brave and
>courageous act doesn't mean that I necessarily admire the
>rest of someone's life, and vice versa.  Just gotta play it
>as it lays, I guess.
>
>
> Butch
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Paul Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas
Date: 05 Mar 1999 06:55:28 -0600

Dennis, it hurts me so very much to think that I am causing you pain, that I
am going out of town this morning and will not return until Monday just to
do pentance.  Pablo the Ever Humble
-----Original Message-----


>Pablo wrote(Among other things):
>
>"Texans are larger than life"
>
>>>And windy as well....Serious Pablo, I would much rather have you up here
>around the fire spinin these yarns in person like, sharin a cup or 4 with
>me.. Besides, it is hurtin' my brain to sound out and cipher all these
>words...<BG>
>
>D
>
>   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Sam Keller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas
Date: 05 Mar 1999 11:52:26 -0800 (PST)

Fellow 'skinners, please join me in a moment of silence tomorrow at
12:00 noon, in honor of those that died to give us freedom.




---Sidney Porter <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> Viva la Tejas!!!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
> To: History List <[e-mail]>; AMM
> <[e-mail]>
> Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 5:31 PM
> Subject: MtMan-List: More about Texas
>
>
> Even if you aren't Texan or even if you don't particularly like
Texans,
> everybody should certainly hold very dear the courage and fidelity
shown by
> heroes.  Few people anywhere have accounted themselves better than
the men
> who fell at the seige of the Alamo...thirteen days of glory that
came to a
> bloody end on March 6, 1836.
> Among the things accomplished during the time they purchased with
their
> lives was the completion of the Declaration of Independence of the
Republic
> of Texas at Washington on the Brazos on March 2, 1836.  At least one
of my
> ancestors held a land grant in central Texas at the time of the Texas
> Revolution so my feelings about those events are even more personal
than
> many.  So please excuse my shamless pride in the sacrifice of those
heroes
> (and those at Goliad and other battles) and of the legacy they left
for all
> of us.
> Lanney Ratcliff, Proud Texan
> Thanks to Paul Stevens for posting the following:
>
> Regardless of what ya'll learned in school, today is Independence
Day, Texas
> Independence Day.  In honor of this day, I decided to send ya'll a
little
> reminder of history.
>
>
>
> Travis' Appeal for Aid at the Alamo
> (24 February 1836)
>
>
> William Barret Travis and almost two hundred other defenders found
> themselves surrounded at the Alamo Mission in San Antonio in late
February
> of 1836. Refusing to surrender, they held off the invading armies of
Mexican
> Dictator Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna for almost two weeks.
>
> On March 6, the courageous Texans were overrun and slaughtered by
well over
> 2000 Mexicans. The resulting delay of Santa Anna's eastward movement
gave
> other Texans more time to organize, both politically and militarily,
and to
> ultimately defeat and capture Santa Anna at the Battle of San Jacinto,
> fought April 21, 1836.
>
> The letter below was written by Travis soon after the Mexicans first
> appeared in the area around San Antonio. It is often referenced as a
supreme
> example of the virtues of courage and self-sacrifice.
>
>
>
>
> Commandancy of the Alamo
> Bexar, Fby. 24th, 1836
>
> To the People of Texas &
> all Americans in the world
> Fellow Citizens & Compatriots
>
> I am besieged by a thousand
> or more of the Mexicans under
> Santa Anna. I have sustained a
> continual bombardment &
> cannonade for 24 hours & have
> not lost a man. The enemy
> has demanded a surrender at
> discretion, otherwise the garrison
> are to be put to the sword if
> the fort is taken. I have answered
> the demand with a cannon
> shot, and our flag still waves
> proudly from the walls. I
> shall never surrender nor retreat.
>
> Then, I call on you in the
> name of Liberty, of patriotism, &
> of everything dear to the American
> character, to come to our aid
> with all dispatch. The enemy is
> receiving reinforcements daily &
> will no doubt increase to three or
> four thousand in four or five days.
> If this call is neglected, I am deter-
> mined to sustain myself as long as
> possible & die like a soldier
> who never forgets what is due to
> his own honor & that of his
> country.
>
> Victory or Death
> William Barret Travis
> Lt. Col. Comdt.
>
> P. S. The Lord is on our side.
> When the enemy appeared in sight
> we had not three bushels of corn.
> We have since found in deserted
> houses 80 or 90 bushels & got into
> the walls 20 or 30 head of Beeves.
>
> Travis
>
>
>
> God Bless Texas!!!  (This is my own little inclusion and not part of
Travis'
> letter)
>
>
> Regards,
> Paul Stevens
>
>
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Sam Keller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas
Date: 05 Mar 1999 11:52:26 -0800 (PST)

Fellow 'skinners, please join me in a moment of silence tomorrow at
12:00 noon, in honor of those that died to give us freedom.




---Sidney Porter <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> Viva la Tejas!!!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
> To: History List <[e-mail]>; AMM
> <[e-mail]>
> Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 5:31 PM
> Subject: MtMan-List: More about Texas
>
>
> Even if you aren't Texan or even if you don't particularly like
Texans,
> everybody should certainly hold very dear the courage and fidelity
shown by
> heroes.  Few people anywhere have accounted themselves better than
the men
> who fell at the seige of the Alamo...thirteen days of glory that
came to a
> bloody end on March 6, 1836.
> Among the things accomplished during the time they purchased with
their
> lives was the completion of the Declaration of Independence of the
Republic
> of Texas at Washington on the Brazos on March 2, 1836.  At least one
of my
> ancestors held a land grant in central Texas at the time of the Texas
> Revolution so my feelings about those events are even more personal
than
> many.  So please excuse my shamless pride in the sacrifice of those
heroes
> (and those at Goliad and other battles) and of the legacy they left
for all
> of us.
> Lanney Ratcliff, Proud Texan
> Thanks to Paul Stevens for posting the following:
>
> Regardless of what ya'll learned in school, today is Independence
Day, Texas
> Independence Day.  In honor of this day, I decided to send ya'll a
little
> reminder of history.
>
>
>
> Travis' Appeal for Aid at the Alamo
> (24 February 1836)
>
>
> William Barret Travis and almost two hundred other defenders found
> themselves surrounded at the Alamo Mission in San Antonio in late
February
> of 1836. Refusing to surrender, they held off the invading armies of
Mexican
> Dictator Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna for almost two weeks.
>
> On March 6, the courageous Texans were overrun and slaughtered by
well over
> 2000 Mexicans. The resulting delay of Santa Anna's eastward movement
gave
> other Texans more time to organize, both politically and militarily,
and to
> ultimately defeat and capture Santa Anna at the Battle of San Jacinto,
> fought April 21, 1836.
>
> The letter below was written by Travis soon after the Mexicans first
> appeared in the area around San Antonio. It is often referenced as a
supreme
> example of the virtues of courage and self-sacrifice.
>
>
>
>
> Commandancy of the Alamo
> Bexar, Fby. 24th, 1836
>
> To the People of Texas &
> all Americans in the world
> Fellow Citizens & Compatriots
>
> I am besieged by a thousand
> or more of the Mexicans under
> Santa Anna. I have sustained a
> continual bombardment &
> cannonade for 24 hours & have
> not lost a man. The enemy
> has demanded a surrender at
> discretion, otherwise the garrison
> are to be put to the sword if
> the fort is taken. I have answered
> the demand with a cannon
> shot, and our flag still waves
> proudly from the walls. I
> shall never surrender nor retreat.
>
> Then, I call on you in the
> name of Liberty, of patriotism, &
> of everything dear to the American
> character, to come to our aid
> with all dispatch. The enemy is
> receiving reinforcements daily &
> will no doubt increase to three or
> four thousand in four or five days.
> If this call is neglected, I am deter-
> mined to sustain myself as long as
> possible & die like a soldier
> who never forgets what is due to
> his own honor & that of his
> country.
>
> Victory or Death
> William Barret Travis
> Lt. Col. Comdt.
>
> P. S. The Lord is on our side.
> When the enemy appeared in sight
> we had not three bushels of corn.
> We have since found in deserted
> houses 80 or 90 bushels & got into
> the walls 20 or 30 head of Beeves.
>
> Travis
>
>
>
> God Bless Texas!!!  (This is my own little inclusion and not part of
Travis'
> letter)
>
>
> Regards,
> Paul Stevens
>
>
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas
Date: 05 Mar 1999 15:33:44 -0500

Also, a patient usually went "mad" from Tertiary Syphillis.... At that stage
it affects the brain and usually caused insanity...

Addison Miller





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas
Date: 05 Mar 1999 15:35:43 -0500

A Marine at Khe Sahn once told me... "Doc, it's not how you die, but how
WELL you die"... That should say it all.... They all died well!!

Addison Miller
(Former Texan)
-----Original Message-----


>larry pendleton wrote:
>>
>> Pablo,
>>   Unfortunately you are exactly right about Travis.  Given that the
>> treatment for social diseases in that time was large doses of mercury,
and
>> the term mad as a hatter refers to the exposure to mercury, it may well
be
>> that our Hero wasn't quite right.  Never the less, that letter is the
stuff
>> of legends and every time I read it makes it what little hair I have
stand
>> on end.
>> Pendleton
>
>
> Heroes are human beings who happen to get it together at
>the right time and in the right place.  I don't mean to take
>anything away from Travis or Crockett by saying that;  I
>mean that all humans are prone to mistakes and bad moves.
>What counts is how we stand up when the crunch comes.  And
>all these men stood up just fine.
>
> As to crying, meeting death on the moment in the heat of a
>fight is one thing.  Seeing it coming for days and knowing
>damn well you *are* going to die is quite another.  Standing
>and dying in place when the time comes and doing the best
>you can with it is what counts, at least with me.  All these
>men did that.  Could I?  Could you?  I dunno, but I sure
>respect any man or woman who has.  Crazy or afraid or
>anything else.  The fact that I can respect a brave and
>courageous act doesn't mean that I necessarily admire the
>rest of someone's life, and vice versa.  Just gotta play it
>as it lays, I guess.
>
>
> Butch
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "The Brooks" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: 12 noon 1836
Date: 05 Mar 1999 23:28:00 +1300


Sam Keller Wrote,
Please join me etc.

We are ahead in time here and in 45 minutes time it will be 12 noon March
6th. I will join in the silence as a mark of respect as called for. I have
stood in the grounds of the Alamo and walked around as most tourists have
done. I have walked in the long barracks.I have wondered what it takes to
stay and face certain death and if I would have stayed. But yes I would,
because all your comrades are on eitherside of you and I don't know of any
man that would run out and leaves his mates behind. Thats just the way it
happens. I walked the river walk and wondered what Travis Crockett etc would
think if they could come back. Coincidentally I am wearing...and believe me
I did not remember about the significance of March 6th until I cleared my
e-mail this morning.. my "Birthplace of Davy Crockett"  T shirt that I
purchased at  Limestone Creek state park Tennessee. You have pride in your
heritage in Texas. It is something sadly lacking in the people of my
country.

Kia Ora
Big Bear
New Zealand




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Jackson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas
Date: 05 Mar 1999 16:09:37 PST

so mote it be


>Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:52:26 -0800 (PST)
>From: Sam Keller <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas
>To: [e-mail], [e-mail],
>  AMM <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>
>Fellow 'skinners, please join me in a moment of silence tomorrow at
>12:00 noon, in honor of those that died to give us freedom.
>
>
>
>
>---Sidney Porter <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>
>> Viva la Tejas!!!
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
>> To: History List <[e-mail]>; AMM
>> <[e-mail]>
>> Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 5:31 PM
>> Subject: MtMan-List: More about Texas
>>
>>
>> Even if you aren't Texan or even if you don't particularly like
>Texans,
>> everybody should certainly hold very dear the courage and fidelity
>shown by
>> heroes.  Few people anywhere have accounted themselves better than
>the men
>> who fell at the seige of the Alamo...thirteen days of glory that
>came to a
>> bloody end on March 6, 1836.
>> Among the things accomplished during the time they purchased with
>their
>> lives was the completion of the Declaration of Independence of the
>Republic
>> of Texas at Washington on the Brazos on March 2, 1836.  At least one
>of my
>> ancestors held a land grant in central Texas at the time of the Texas
>> Revolution so my feelings about those events are even more personal
>than
>> many.  So please excuse my shamless pride in the sacrifice of those
>heroes
>> (and those at Goliad and other battles) and of the legacy they left
>for all
>> of us.
>> Lanney Ratcliff, Proud Texan
>> Thanks to Paul Stevens for posting the following:
>>
>> Regardless of what ya'll learned in school, today is Independence
>Day, Texas
>> Independence Day.  In honor of this day, I decided to send ya'll a
>little
>> reminder of history.
>>
>>
>>
>> Travis' Appeal for Aid at the Alamo
>> (24 February 1836)
>>
>>
>> William Barret Travis and almost two hundred other defenders found
>> themselves surrounded at the Alamo Mission in San Antonio in late
>February
>> of 1836. Refusing to surrender, they held off the invading armies of
>Mexican
>> Dictator Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna for almost two weeks.
>>
>> On March 6, the courageous Texans were overrun and slaughtered by
>well over
>> 2000 Mexicans. The resulting delay of Santa Anna's eastward movement
>gave
>> other Texans more time to organize, both politically and militarily,
>and to
>> ultimately defeat and capture Santa Anna at the Battle of San
Jacinto,
>> fought April 21, 1836.
>>
>> The letter below was written by Travis soon after the Mexicans first
>> appeared in the area around San Antonio. It is often referenced as a
>supreme
>> example of the virtues of courage and self-sacrifice.
>>
>>
>>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Commandancy of the Alamo
>> Bexar, Fby. 24th, 1836
>>
>> To the People of Texas &
>> all Americans in the world
>> Fellow Citizens & Compatriots
>>
>> I am besieged by a thousand
>> or more of the Mexicans under
>> Santa Anna. I have sustained a
>> continual bombardment &
>> cannonade for 24 hours & have
>> not lost a man. The enemy
>> has demanded a surrender at
>> discretion, otherwise the garrison
>> are to be put to the sword if
>> the fort is taken. I have answered
>> the demand with a cannon
>> shot, and our flag still waves
>> proudly from the walls. I
>> shall never surrender nor retreat.
>>
>> Then, I call on you in the
>> name of Liberty, of patriotism, &
>> of everything dear to the American
>> character, to come to our aid
>> with all dispatch. The enemy is
>> receiving reinforcements daily &
>> will no doubt increase to three or
>> four thousand in four or five days.
>> If this call is neglected, I am deter-
>> mined to sustain myself as long as
>> possible & die like a soldier
>> who never forgets what is due to
>> his own honor & that of his
>> country.
>>
>> Victory or Death
>> William Barret Travis
>> Lt. Col. Comdt.
>>
>> P. S. The Lord is on our side.
>> When the enemy appeared in sight
>> we had not three bushels of corn.
>> We have since found in deserted
>> houses 80 or 90 bushels & got into
>> the walls 20 or 30 head of Beeves.
>>
>> Travis
>>
>>
>>
>> God Bless Texas!!!  (This is my own little inclusion and not part of
>Travis'
>> letter)
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Paul Stevens
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Duncan Macready <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Rendezvous 2000
Date: 06 Mar 1999 23:46:14 +1300


>I have been asked to pass on the following message from Gary Howat the
President of the New Zealand Black Powder Shooters Federation ,
>
>>In New Zealand we will be the first country to see the sun rise on the
>>new milleniumn and to help celebrate it we are holding our eighteenth
>>Mountain Man Shoot and rendezvous on the East Coast of the North Island
>>at a little place called Wakarara, south east of Napier, the nearest city.
>>The NZ Black Powder Shooters Federation is planning to shoot into the
>>new milleniumn and we welcome any interested parties from anywere in the
>>world who wish to come.It will be a party and celebration not to be
>>missed especially as it will be our eighteenth succesful rendezvous.
>>If anyone wants more details please email Gary Howat at  [e-mail]
>
>We will try to have full TV coverage of a volley fire of muzzle loading
firearms being fired at a splitsecond past Midnight so that the first shots
fired in the new Millennium are ML and not Suppository.[We have a club
member who is a producer for 60 Minuets]
>YMOS
>Cutfinger
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bishnow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas
Date: 06 Mar 1999 12:13:09 -0600

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> I once read in some book or the other, "that everything in Texas, either
> stings, sticks or stinks."  Hmmmm?
>
> Lil griz
Everything in Texas either bites, sticksor stings. And if you kill
one rattlesnake that means you only have about 999,999 left.

From the Heart of Texas
Snakeshot



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Rendezvous 2000
Date: 06 Mar 1999 14:38:02 EST


In a message dated 3/6/99 2:46:59 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<>new milleniumn >>

Which begins on Jan.1,2001
        Dick



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Rendezvous 2000
Date: 06 Mar 1999 14:51:53 EST

Duncan, Don't wanna split hairs or cause a furor, but which millenium are you
celebrating? The one CREATED by the advertising/sales media or the real one?
Please don't join in the ridiculous hype created and perpetrated by people
trying to scam money for cruises, outrageously expensive vacations, bogus
souveniers, etc.  Even my 8 year old nephew knows that two thousand years from
the year 1 is the year 2001.  YHS,  Barney P. Fife



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sidney Porter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Rendezvous 2000
Date: 06 Mar 1999 14:14:44 -0800

Duncan (and Gary)

What a cool idea.  Our local blackpowder group is doing the same thing.
Wish I could come.

Sidney
-----Original Message-----


>
>>I have been asked to pass on the following message from Gary Howat the
>President of the New Zealand Black Powder Shooters Federation ,
>>
>>>In New Zealand we will be the first country to see the sun rise on the
>>>new milleniumn and to help celebrate it we are holding our eighteenth
>>>Mountain Man Shoot and rendezvous on the East Coast of the North Island
>>>at a little place called Wakarara, south east of Napier, the nearest
city.
>>>The NZ Black Powder Shooters Federation is planning to shoot into the
>>>new milleniumn and we welcome any interested parties from anywere in the
>>>world who wish to come.It will be a party and celebration not to be
>>>missed especially as it will be our eighteenth succesful rendezvous.
>>>If anyone wants more details please email Gary Howat at
[e-mail]
>>
>>We will try to have full TV coverage of a volley fire of muzzle loading
>firearms being fired at a splitsecond past Midnight so that the first shots
>fired in the new Millennium are ML and not Suppository.[We have a club
>member who is a producer for 60 Minuets]
>>YMOS
>>Cutfinger
>>
>>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Duncan Macready <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Rendezvous 2000
Date: 07 Mar 1999 10:15:08 +1300

At 02:51 PM 3/6/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Duncan, Don't wanna split hairs or cause a furor, but which millenium are you
>celebrating? The one CREATED by the advertising/sales media or the real one?
>Please don't join in the ridiculous hype created and perpetrated by people
>trying to scam money for cruises, outrageously expensive vacations, bogus
>souveniers, etc.  Even my 8 year old nephew knows that two thousand years
from
>the year 1 is the year 2001.  YHS,  Barney P. Fife
>
Dosn't matter , we can do it 2 years in a row ,we allways have a Rondy at
that time of year ,[our summer],
What ever the semantics of the date are ,we will be the first people in the
World to fire a shot, [and it will be black powder ], or any other human
activity you can think of, if you arn't here you miss out , it's all hair
splitting any way you look at it, and is just a good excuse for a rip
roaring party, which it will be,and as what you say is technically correct
thats two parties, twice as much to look forward to,double the pleasure
double the fun and you get to fire two shots. <VBG>
YMOS
Dunc




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Rendezvous 2000
Date: 06 Mar 1999 17:47:10 EST

wow Duncan. now it sounds too good to miss. shoot out the end of this century,
shoot in the new, shoot out the old millenium, shoot in the new, have new
years first in the world and jet-boat through the fire-fly caves.   WAUGH!  on
the phone booking those outrageously expensive reservations NOW!!!   thanks
for the enlightenment.  YHS,  Barney P. Fife



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John W. Stephens" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Rendezvous 2000
Date: 06 Mar 1999 15:00:49 -0800

Would it not have been more period-appropriate to send your message via
smoke signals, rather than the modern telephone? Not very good AMM
material, if'n you ask me ...

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> wow Duncan. now it sounds too good to miss. shoot out the end of this century,
> shoot in the new, shoot out the old millenium, shoot in the new, have new
> years first in the world and jet-boat through the fire-fly caves.   WAUGH!  on
> the phone booking those outrageously expensive reservations NOW!!!   thanks
> for the enlightenment.  YHS,  Barney P. Fife

--
JW "LRay" Stephens



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Rendezvous 2000
Date: 06 Mar 1999 18:51:16 -0500

Ok, dumb question.... how do you figure the new millenium starts in the year
2001???


-----Original Message-----


>
>In a message dated 3/6/99 2:46:59 AM, [e-mail] writes:
>
><<>new milleniumn >>
>
>Which begins on Jan.1,2001
>        Dick
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Rendezvous 2000
Date: 06 Mar 1999 19:37:26 EST

WOW, about time.  We been needing a good controversy!!! This should start a
good one...<GGG>   Here's my take on this issue: There was no calendar year
zero (0); the first year AD was the year one (1). That plus 999 more equal a
thousand (1000) years (a millenium), which ended in 000. Continuing forward
from there, using basic math, it can be deduced that the FIRST year of EVERY
millenium will end in 1, (1001, 2001,3001, etc, and the LAST year of every
millenium would end in 0.  i.e, 2000, 3000, etc.

Therefore, the year 2000 is the LAST YEAR of both this century (100 year
intervals) and the LAST YEAR of this millenium (thousand year intervals), and
the year 2001 is therefore the start of both a new centruy and a new
millenium.   Maybe it's easier understood with the use of centuries... the
18th Century was from 1701 THROUGH 1800, not 1700 through 1799.  Hope this
didn't create more confusion....  YHS, Barn.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Rendezvous 2000
Date: 06 Mar 1999 18:44:12 -0800

Yup!

Medicine Bear

[e-mail] wrote:

> WOW, about time.  We been needing a good controversy!!! This should start a
> good one...<GGG>   Here's my take on this issue: There was no calendar year
> zero (0); the first year AD was the year one (1). That plus 999 more equal a
> thousand (1000) years (a millenium), which ended in 000. Continuing forward
> from there, using basic math, it can be deduced that the FIRST year of EVERY
> millenium will end in 1, (1001, 2001,3001, etc, and the LAST year of every
> millenium would end in 0.  i.e, 2000, 3000, etc.
>
> Therefore, the year 2000 is the LAST YEAR of both this century (100 year
> intervals) and the LAST YEAR of this millenium (thousand year intervals), and
> the year 2001 is therefore the start of both a new centruy and a new
> millenium.   Maybe it's easier understood with the use of centuries... the
> 18th Century was from 1701 THROUGH 1800, not 1700 through 1799.  Hope this
> didn't create more confusion....  YHS, Barn.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Rendezvous 2000
Date: 06 Mar 1999 19:51:21 -0800



sean wrote:

> Ok, dumb question.... how do you figure the new millenium starts in the year
> 2001???

Sean,

No dumb questions and this probably doesn't belong here but after all the
passage of time is the passage of history and this is the History List so.....

I too, thought the new Millennium started at the end of 1999 and the beginning
of the year 2000  at one time. I even went so far as to write a letter to a
nationally known "Genius" telling her she was wrong to say it didn't start until
Jan. 1, 2001. Then I sat down and tried to prove myself right on paper. Once I
had diagrammed it out on paper I realized that I was making a fool of myself by
believing next New Year was the start of the New Millennium. (not the first time
I have said something foolish) <BG> .

It becomes much clearer if you put it on paper but........

A millennium is 1000 years long.
The first millennium started at "0".
To count years we name them when they start not when they are complete.
From "0" to the end of that first year was called "1" AD even though it "really
wasn't a year gone by" until the end of that first year and only at the stroke
of midnight of that first year was it a full "Year One".
But at that moment in time it was "Year 2". And so on, and so on, etc. until we
arrive at where we are now.
Whether you speak of one year or 10 years or 100 years or 1000 years or 2000
years, you have to start at "0" and go until you have Completed the full
measure.
We won't complete a full measure of 2000 linear years until we get to the end of
the year 2000.

Another way to think of it is to replace "years" with say, inches or feet or
some other linear form of measure, money would be a good medium to use too. One
could say they were 'in' inch one at the 1/2" mark but they would not be 'at'
inch "one" until they had gone the distance. The same would apply to 2000
inches. You don't really have 2000 inches until you get to the end of the 2000th
inch. The same applies to years. You can substitute dollars for years. If you
are owed, say 2000 dollars, you surely would not concider that you had been
given what you were owed after recieveing only 1999 dollars. You would want that
last dollar and you would be entitled to it. Then once you had it in your hand
you realy would have 2000 dollars.

I probably am not the best at explaining this but it is true. What has happened
is simply that we have gotten caught up in the excitement and hype of the
milestone of the year 2000. It is a "magic" number and has always felt like it
should be a new beginning. But in truth it is really just the end. The end of
the 20th Century and a special occasion but not the first year of the New
Millennium, just the grand finale to the last Millennium.

So like I said, we should have a great time this coming New Years Eve and then
we will have a Really Grand Time the following New Years Eve. Sorry for taking
up band width on this subject. If any wish to talk of this further, we should
probably take it off list. I remain.......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Saturday, March 06, 1999 2:41 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Rendezvous 2000
>
> >
> >In a message dated 3/6/99 2:46:59 AM, [e-mail] writes:
> >
> ><<>new milleniumn >>
> >
> >Which begins on Jan.1,2001
> >        Dick
> >
> >




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Rendezvous 2000
Date: 07 Mar 1999 13:40:01 -0500

Well, I cannot make the one in Australia, but if you guys want to meet a few of us
from Fla/Ga. we hold one near WAycross, Ga. on New years to not shoot but " blow
up" the New Year In.  Does that make any sense????  Our sight does not allow guns,
but we can bring as much fire works and gun powder to welcome in the new year.
Also as much food as you can stomach.  This last event had over 2 hours of fire
works. Home made and bought.  It was a wonderful sight.  And we are very safety
conscience.  No one blown up yet.  But a great party.  Many of us are safety
officers in black powder with the National Park service so we are not allowed to
blow our selves up.  If anyone is interested....let me know.

Linda Holley

[e-mail] wrote:

> wow Duncan. now it sounds too good to miss. shoot out the end of this century,
> shoot in the new, shoot out the old millenium, shoot in the new, have new
> years first in the world and jet-boat through the fire-fly caves.   WAUGH!  on
> the phone booking those outrageously expensive reservations NOW!!!   thanks
> for the enlightenment.  YHS,  Barney P. Fife




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Rendezvous 2000
Date: 07 Mar 1999 16:17:41 -0600

There are lots of arguments about this.  Some people believe that the =
year 2000 is the last year of the 20th century and that the 21st =
century, the next millennium, begins on January 1, 2001.  Others =
disagree, and believe that the next millennium begins on January 1, =
2000.  I believe the former but, what the hell, I am going to have a =
kick-ass party on Dec 31, 1999 and another on Dec 31, 2000, and maybe =
one the NEXT year, too.  That seems perfectly sensible to me.  Y'all =
come.....BYOB.
Lanney Ratcliff

-----Original Message-----


>Ok, dumb question.... how do you figure the new millenium starts in the =
year
>2001???
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Saturday, March 06, 1999 2:41 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Rendezvous 2000
>
>
>>
>>In a message dated 3/6/99 2:46:59 AM, [e-mail] writes:
>>
>><<>new milleniumn >>
>>
>>Which begins on Jan.1,2001
>>        Dick
>>
>>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Rendezvous 2000
Date: 07 Mar 1999 20:28:25 -0500


You can NEVER have too many parties!!!





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Rendezvous 2000
Date: 07 Mar 1999 21:06:55 EST

In a message dated 3/7/99 2:11:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, [e-mail]
writes:

<< Y'all come.....BYOB. Lanney Ratcliff >>

 YEEEHAWWW Lanney. Best answer yet. You be sure and let us know what time and
where.   YHS, Barney P. Fife



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Rendezvous 2000
Date: 07 Mar 1999 20:23:58 -0600

my house, 'bout dark.
L
-----Original Message-----


>In a message dated 3/7/99 2:11:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, =
[e-mail]
>writes:
>
><< Y'all come.....BYOB. Lanney Ratcliff >>
>
> YEEEHAWWW Lanney. Best answer yet. You be sure and let us know what =
time and
>where.   YHS, Barney P. Fife
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "LEWIS K RAPER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Rendezvous 2000
Date: 07 Mar 1999 22:26:11 -0500

How do I get to this 2000 rondy? It sounds like fun!!!-Possumhunter
"No man can truly know Christ except he follow him in life" ( Testimony of
Anabaptist leader Hans Denk)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, March 07, 1999 1:40 PM


>Well, I cannot make the one in Australia, but if you guys want to meet a
few of us
>from Fla/Ga. we hold one near WAycross, Ga. on New years to not shoot but "
blow
>up" the New Year In.  Does that make any sense????  Our sight does not
allow guns,
>but we can bring as much fire works and gun powder to welcome in the new
year.
>Also as much food as you can stomach.  This last event had over 2 hours of
fire
>works. Home made and bought.  It was a wonderful sight.  And we are very
safety
>conscience.  No one blown up yet.  But a great party.  Many of us are
safety
>officers in black powder with the National Park service so we are not
allowed to
>blow our selves up.  If anyone is interested....let me know.
>
>Linda Holley




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sidney Porter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Rendezvous 2000
Date: 07 Mar 1999 23:29:09 -0800

Be there or be square, Ain't it so LR?

Sidney


-----Original Message-----


my house, 'bout dark.
L
-----Original Message-----


>In a message dated 3/7/99 2:11:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, [e-mail]
>writes:
>
><< Y'all come.....BYOB. Lanney Ratcliff >>
>
> YEEEHAWWW Lanney. Best answer yet. You be sure and let us know what time
and
>where.   YHS, Barney P. Fife
>






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Rendezvous 2000
Date: 08 Mar 1999 00:44:32 EST

Gee, I think there should be a momentous rendezvous to celebrate the millenium
at Bents Fort or somewhere equally monumental.  Could celebrate with a jug of
Taos  lightening...then NO one would care if it began on 1/1/00 or 1/1/01



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mark Robbins <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Wire inlays
Date: 08 Mar 1999 13:48:53 -0800

Im restocking my old CVA Mountian Rifle and I decided to try my hand at
putting in some wire inlays.

First I'd rather try it with this one (ie: cheap kit), rather thn my next
rifle I plan to build which will be much more complex.  (call it OJT)

Does anyone have any suggestions for a good drawing source online or books,
where I can get some ideas on patterns?

Thanks

Mark Robbins
Monroe, WA



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
Date: 08 Mar 1999 18:55:25 -0600



>the corn can be =
>crushed to powder (a blender or food processor works well for this, or =
>use a metate or a mortar & pestal) to make pinole, also known as =
>rockahominy and other names.  A small handful consumed with the help of =
>a big drink of water or eating a large pellet made by mixing a handful =
>of pinole with a little water will stick to your ribs better than you =
>can imagine.  Some folks season or flavor the pinole with salt or sugar =
>and, sometimes, cinnamon.  Suit yourself here, but remember that salt =
>tends to draw moisture.

An alternative is to buy coarsely ground cornmeal, the kind used to deep fry fish,
mix it with maple sugar, finely chopped nuts, I use walnuts, and dried blueberries,
and drink LOTS of water when ingesting this mix.

I carry a bag of this "trail mix" tied to my belt so I don't have to dig through my
pack
to get to it. Be aware that LOTS of water, I say again, LOTS of water must be
consumed with this mix to prevent dehydration, as the dry corn will absorb quite a
bit
of moisture from the stomach...then quite a bit more water is necessary for good
digestion.

WARNING: Failure to drink LOTS of water with dry cornmeal mix will bind you up
tighter than a popcorn fart.   I speak from experience <LOL>             J.D.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
Date: 08 Mar 1999 20:05:09 -0400

>An alternative is to buy coarsely ground cornmeal, the kind used to deep
>fry fish,
>mix it with maple sugar,

And a useful alternative to this is to spread your raw cornmeal out in a
thin layer on a baking sheet and bake it at moderate temperature, stirring
occasionally, until it is a nice golden brown color. This adds a very
pleasant nutty parched flavor and helps prevent the need for so much water
when you eat it since you are eating cooked corn, not raw. It is
essentially the same as if you had parched the corn and then ground it.
Easy on the browning, burnt corn/cornmeal isn't a favorite flavor of mine,
even when mixed with maple sugar.

Bob

Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
non illegitimi carborundum est





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
Date: 08 Mar 1999 18:58:15 -0700

   Why are you going to all this trouble when several dealers sell good
quality parched corn, either Flint or Blue parched corn is available. Goose
Bay Workshops, Blue Heron Mercantile or Clark & Sons Mercantile plus several
others, usually around $3.85 to $4.00 a pound.

Example:
   Blue parched corn is written about in early journals, and found on trade
lists from the French Fur Trade in the North to the Spanish settlements in
the South, across the Mississippi Valley to the Pacific in the West. A
Native American product that was found on most of the trade routes
throughout the Louisiana Purchase and its territory.
    Blue parched corn is roasted and then washed in a sea salt brine, (as
done for centuries by Native Americans). Per references found in journals
about Keaton, Boone, Bridger and others, this was done to make the corn last
longer.  It's also note worthy that they coarse ground their parched corn
and mixed it with nuts, dried fruits and different sugars, depending on what
was available in their area.(probably ground as its easier on their palate
and digestive systems).   [copied from C&SM]

Buck

See:        http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/


-----Original Message-----


>
>
>>the corn can be =
>>crushed to powder (a blender or food processor works well for this, or =
>>use a metate or a mortar & pestal) to make pinole, also known as =
>>rockahominy and other names.  A small handful consumed with the help of =
>>a big drink of water or eating a large pellet made by mixing a handful =
>>of pinole with a little water will stick to your ribs better than you =
>>can imagine.  Some folks season or flavor the pinole with salt or sugar =
>>and, sometimes, cinnamon.  Suit yourself here, but remember that salt =
>>tends to draw moisture.
>
>An alternative is to buy coarsely ground cornmeal, the kind used to deep
fry fish,
>mix it with maple sugar, finely chopped nuts, I use walnuts, and dried
blueberries,
>and drink LOTS of water when ingesting this mix.
>
>I carry a bag of this "trail mix" tied to my belt so I don't have to dig
through my
>pack
>to get to it. Be aware that LOTS of water, I say again, LOTS of water must
be
>consumed with this mix to prevent dehydration, as the dry corn will absorb
quite a
>bit
>of moisture from the stomach...then quite a bit more water is necessary for
good
>digestion.
>
>WARNING: Failure to drink LOTS of water with dry cornmeal mix will bind you
up
>tighter than a popcorn fart.   I speak from experience <LOL>
J.D.
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
Date: 08 Mar 1999 21:35:16 -0400

>   Why are you going to all this trouble when several dealers sell good
>quality parched corn, either Flint or Blue parched corn is available. Goose
>Bay Workshops, Blue Heron Mercantile or Clark & Sons Mercantile plus several
>others, usually around $3.85 to $4.00 a pound.

It's little trouble, fun to do your own, and a lot cheaper than $4/lb.

>   Blue parched corn is written about in early journals, and found on trade
>lists from the French Fur Trade in the North to the Spanish settlements in
>the South, across the Mississippi Valley to the Pacific in the West. A
>Native American product that was found on most of the trade routes
>throughout the Louisiana Purchase and its territory.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but it's my impression that blue corn is a
product of the southwest, and was never grown in the east. At least, I've
never seen it mentioned in writings about that area. Am I wrong about that?

>Per references found in journals
>about Keaton, Boone, Bridger and others, this was done to make the corn last
>longer.

A fair amount of time lapsed between Kenton/Boone and Bridger, and the
scene of action had also moved far to the west, in general. I've always
assumed that blue corn was grown by the southwestern tribes, not by those
of the eastern woodlands, and was more a part of the beaver trapper era of
the west than of the deerskin era of the east.

>It's also note worthy that they coarse ground their parched corn
>and mixed it with nuts, dried fruits and different sugars, depending on what
>was available in their area.

Probably so, but not always. From  _Travels in Pensilvania and Canada_ by
John Bartram, published 1751, concerning a trip undertaken in 1743, LOC #
66-24197

"We moved forward to our first cabin, where we dined on parched meal, which
is some of the best Indian traveling provision. We had of it 2 bags, each a
gallon, from the Indians at Onondago, the preparation of it is thus. They
take the corn and parch it in hot ashes, till it becomes brown, then clean
it, pound it in a mortar and sift it; this powder is mixed with sugar.
About 1 quarter of a pint, diluted in a pint of water, is a hearty
traveling dinner, when 100 miles from any inhabitants;..."

If you leave the sugar out, it is also very good for thickening a pot of
pocket soup or squirrel stew, if you have that as part of your victuals.

Bob

Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
non illegitimi carborundum est





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
Date: 08 Mar 1999 19:55:48 -0700

Blue parched corn was marked [example] Bob, and states from where it was
traded, west of the Mississippi, flint corn was found in the east and came
west with the westward movement. A pound of parched corn, will last several
outings, thats why I asked why your using a make shift item when its that
cheap.

-----Original Message-----


>>   Why are you going to all this trouble when several dealers sell good
>>quality parched corn, either Flint or Blue parched corn is available.
Goose
>>Bay Workshops, Blue Heron Mercantile or Clark & Sons Mercantile plus
several
>>others, usually around $3.85 to $4.00 a pound.
>
>It's little trouble, fun to do your own, and a lot cheaper than $4/lb.
>
>>   Blue parched corn is written about in early journals, and found on
trade
>>lists from the French Fur Trade in the North to the Spanish settlements in
>>the South, across the Mississippi Valley to the Pacific in the West. A
>>Native American product that was found on most of the trade routes
>>throughout the Louisiana Purchase and its territory.
>
>Correct me if I'm mistaken, but it's my impression that blue corn is a
>product of the southwest, and was never grown in the east. At least, I've
>never seen it mentioned in writings about that area. Am I wrong about that?
>






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
Date: 08 Mar 1999 22:10:34 -0400

> A pound of parched corn, will last several
>outings, thats why I asked why your using a make shift item when its that
>cheap.

Guess I'll have to 'fess up, Barry, I'm even cheaper.

Bob

Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
non illegitimi carborundum est





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
Date: 08 Mar 1999 20:08:34 -0800



Barry Conner wrote:

> Blue parched corn was marked [example] Bob, and states from where it was
> traded,

Barry,

I'm a bit confused by this statement. I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

> west of the Mississippi, flint corn was found in the east and came
> west with the westward movement.

I'm not comfortable with this at all. The indians of the southwest and into
Mexico (where the cultivation and development of corn started) did and still do
grow several types of corn including sweet, dent, and flint type corns. Of
course the eastern indians grew corn, though I have no sure data on what color
it was close at hand. Many indian tribes of the plains and elsewhere were famous
for their corn, bean, and squash cultivation. The Mandans and others who lived
along waterways such as the Missouri R all grew corn and other crops long before
the white man came. These commodities were traded clear across the continent.
And Blue corn was and is not the only corn that can be parched. In the southwest
the indians have several score types they grow depending on climate and
elevation and what the ultimate use for the corn will be. Apache "Chin mark"
corn makes especially good parched corn and blue and red corns are often used to
make special corn meals for tortillas and other flat breads. They are also
soaked in lye (wood ash) to make a more digestible meal when ground or cooked
whole.

> A pound of parched corn, will last several
> outings, thats why I asked why your using a make shift item when its that
> cheap.

Like Bob said, because it's fun. Fun to grow your own, parch your own, eat your
own. It's called self sufficiency and goes hand in hand with making as much of
your kit and caboodle yourself as you can. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Monday, March 08, 1999 7:38 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
>
> >>   Why are you going to all this trouble when several dealers sell good
> >>quality parched corn, either Flint or Blue parched corn is available.
> Goose
> >>Bay Workshops, Blue Heron Mercantile or Clark & Sons Mercantile plus
> several
> >>others, usually around $3.85 to $4.00 a pound.
> >
> >It's little trouble, fun to do your own, and a lot cheaper than $4/lb.
> >
> >>   Blue parched corn is written about in early journals, and found on
> trade
> >>lists from the French Fur Trade in the North to the Spanish settlements in
> >>the South, across the Mississippi Valley to the Pacific in the West. A
> >>Native American product that was found on most of the trade routes
> >>throughout the Louisiana Purchase and its territory.
> >
> >Correct me if I'm mistaken, but it's my impression that blue corn is a
> >product of the southwest, and was never grown in the east. At least, I've
> >never seen it mentioned in writings about that area. Am I wrong about that?
> >




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
Date: 08 Mar 1999 23:18:40 EST

Bob Spencer writes:
> Guess I'll have to 'fess up, Barry, I'm even cheaper.

No one will disagree with that....specially them that knows ya.

On the other hand, Buck sells some fine goods.  His barley grits makes a fine
trekkin breakfast and the millet flour makes some good hotcakes.  The yaller
peas are a delicacy when laced with a big chunk of fatback.  You really owe it
to yourself to check out his website for some well researched period foods for
sale.

Dave Kanger



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
Date: 08 Mar 1999 23:39:51 -0400

>On the other hand, Buck sells some fine goods.  His barley grits makes a fine
>trekkin breakfast and the millet flour makes some good hotcakes.  The yaller
>peas are a delicacy when laced with a big chunk of fatback.  You really owe it
>to yourself to check out his website for some well researched period foods for
>sale.

Ah, commerce rears its ugly head! <G> Didn't realize Buck had stuff for
sale, thought we were having a historical discussion.

Maybe Buck can answer a question...since corn sells for plus or minus $2.00
for a *bushel*, why is parched corn a bargain at $4.00 per *pound*? Just
the romance of it? I understand about paying for romance, but that's a hell
of a lot of value added! <G>

I'll check out the site, TOF, thanks.

Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
non illegitimi carborundum est





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: The War of 1812 in the West Symposium
Date: 08 Mar 1999 23:31:48 EST

AMM Brothers:
Thought you might want to post this on your website.

Traphand
Rick Petzoldt
[e-mail]


"The War of 1812 in the West Symposium"
March 28-29, 1999
The General Daniel Bissell Home
10225 Bellefontaine Road
St. Louis, MO  63137

    Schedule
Saturday:
9 AM--The Detroit Campaign
10 AM--Women Captives of the Fort Dearborn
11 AM--Ambush at Loutre Creek:  The Death of
              Captain James Callaway,  Missouri Ranger
1:30 PM--Artillery in the War of 1812
2:30 PM--Military River Boats on the Missouri
3:30 PM--Fort Russell,  Illinois Territory

Sunday:
9 AM--Blood Sport:  Cock Fighting
10 AM--A Stand of Arms
11 AM--The United States Dragoons in The War of 1812



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wire inlays
Date: 08 Mar 1999 23:54:37 EST

In a message dated 99-03-08 16:52:29 EST, you write:

<< First I'd rather try it with this one (ie: cheap kit), rather thn my next
 rifle I plan to build which will be much more complex.  (call it OJT)

Good idea.  If it comes out good, then replace the barrel, lock & trigger, &
you'll have a decent rifle!  Sorry, couldn't resist -- Have sent a lot of lead
down range out of a CVA.

< Does anyone have any suggestions for a good drawing source online or books,
 where I can get some ideas on patterns?
  >>
The latest Muzzleloader magazine (Mar/April, 99) has a good article on laying
out the scrolls, & some good examples of carving.  Wire inlays followed the
same patterns the carvings did, for the most part unless they were simple
outlines of, say, the lock mortise, tang, & side plate.  There's a book out
called "Steel Canvas" by R.L. Wilson -- ISBN: 0-679-40673-5 (on the shelf at
Barnes & Noble here) that shows a whole bunch of origional rifles & their
artwork.  You need to look at the work being done in the 1820's & 30's when
the carving kinda went away & inlays took over.  Some were realy elaborate.
This is a GREAT idea book for recreating an origional.

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "The Brooks" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: parched corn
Date: 09 Mar 1999 08:40:27 +1300



>   Why are you going to all this trouble when several dealers sell good
>quality parched corn, either Flint or Blue parched corn is available. Goose
>Bay Workshops, Blue Heron Mercantile or Clark & Sons Mercantile plus
several


Very simple Buck.. Those places you mention happen to be about 16,000 miles
away and freight over that distance aint cheap and then of course you have
to get it past customs...... get the picture.

Kia Ora,
Big Bear
In hot humid Marlborough New Zealand.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
Date: 09 Mar 1999 05:25:52 -0500

Could you please send me the web site?  I missed it....

[e-mail]

Thanks.... :)

-----Original Message-----


>Bob Spencer writes:
>> Guess I'll have to 'fess up, Barry, I'm even cheaper.
>
>No one will disagree with that....specially them that knows ya.
>
>On the other hand, Buck sells some fine goods.  His barley grits makes a
fine
>trekkin breakfast and the millet flour makes some good hotcakes.  The
yaller
>peas are a delicacy when laced with a big chunk of fatback.  You really owe
it
>to yourself to check out his website for some well researched period foods
for
>sale.
>
>Dave Kanger
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "F.Vital" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
Date: 09 Mar 1999 06:42:41 -0500


Bob Spencer wrote:

> Ah, commerce rears its ugly head! <G> Didn't realize Buck had stuff for
> sale, thought we were having a historical discussion.
>
> Maybe Buck can answer a question...since corn sells for plus or minus $2.00
> for a *bushel*, why is parched corn a bargain at $4.00 per *pound*? Just
> the romance of it? I understand about paying for romance, but that's a hell
> of a lot of value added! <G>
>

Cause the utility companies charge for the energy used to parch the corn. Plus
someone has to stand there and stir the corn, and everyone figures that their time
is worth at least a couple of bucks.

--
Frank Vital
Auburn University Mechanical Engineering Senior
personal page: http://www.auburn.edu/~vitalfr/

web master for: http://www.bpaccuracy.com





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
Date: 09 Mar 1999 08:12:06 -0700



HAR HAR HAR.  Just get yourselves a video folks and you won't have to bother
with even goin' out of the house!  You can vicariously experience the entire Old
West...for a price.

Bob you're right.

Baird





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Sam Keller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
Date: 09 Mar 1999 14:19:20 -0800 (PST)


I cannot answer for anyone but me. But I find that your $3.85 a pound
Store Bought palaver don't taste as good as what I make myself. Plus
by parching my corn instead of buying it, I save about $3.50 a pound.
Sure goes a long way towards my next can of fff.



---Barry Conner <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
>    Why are you going to all this trouble when several dealers sell
good
> quality parched corn, either Flint or Blue parched corn is
available. Goose
> Bay Workshops, Blue Heron Mercantile or Clark & Sons Mercantile plus
several
> others, usually around $3.85 to $4.00 a pound.
>
> Example:
>    Blue parched corn is written about in early journals, and found
on trade
> lists from the French Fur Trade in the North to the Spanish
settlements in
> the South, across the Mississippi Valley to the Pacific in the West. A
> Native American product that was found on most of the trade routes
> throughout the Louisiana Purchase and its territory.
>     Blue parched corn is roasted and then washed in a sea salt
brine, (as
> done for centuries by Native Americans). Per references found in
journals
> about Keaton, Boone, Bridger and others, this was done to make the
corn last
> longer.  It's also note worthy that they coarse ground their parched
corn
> and mixed it with nuts, dried fruits and different sugars, depending
on what
> was available in their area.(probably ground as its easier on their
palate
> and digestive systems).   [copied from C&SM]
>
> Buck
>
> See:        http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Monday, March 08, 1999 5:55 PM
> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
>
>
> >
> >
> >>the corn can be =
> >>crushed to powder (a blender or food processor works well for
this, or =
> >>use a metate or a mortar & pestal) to make pinole, also known as =
> >>rockahominy and other names.  A small handful consumed with the
help of =
> >>a big drink of water or eating a large pellet made by mixing a
handful =
> >>of pinole with a little water will stick to your ribs better than
you =
> >>can imagine.  Some folks season or flavor the pinole with salt or
sugar =
> >>and, sometimes, cinnamon.  Suit yourself here, but remember that
salt =
> >>tends to draw moisture.
> >
> >An alternative is to buy coarsely ground cornmeal, the kind used to
deep
> fry fish,
> >mix it with maple sugar, finely chopped nuts, I use walnuts, and
dried
> blueberries,
> >and drink LOTS of water when ingesting this mix.
> >
> >I carry a bag of this "trail mix" tied to my belt so I don't have
to dig
> through my
> >pack
> >to get to it. Be aware that LOTS of water, I say again, LOTS of
water must
> be
> >consumed with this mix to prevent dehydration, as the dry corn will
absorb
> quite a
> >bit
> >of moisture from the stomach...then quite a bit more water is
necessary for
> good
> >digestion.
> >
> >WARNING: Failure to drink LOTS of water with dry cornmeal mix will
bind you
> up
> >tighter than a popcorn fart.   I speak from experience <LOL>
> J.D.
> >
> >
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
Date: 09 Mar 1999 18:49:08 -0500

Sam, would you be so kind as to email me the receipe for Parching Corn?  I'd
like to give it a try...

[e-mail]

thanks...

SeanBear

-----Original Message-----


>
>I cannot answer for anyone but me. But I find that your $3.85 a pound
>Store Bought palaver don't taste as good as what I make myself. Plus
>by parching my corn instead of buying it, I save about $3.50 a pound.
>Sure goes a long way towards my next can of fff.
>
>
>
>---Barry Conner <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>
>>    Why are you going to all this trouble when several dealers sell
>good
>> quality parched corn, either Flint or Blue parched corn is
>available. Goose
>> Bay Workshops, Blue Heron Mercantile or Clark & Sons Mercantile plus
>several
>> others, usually around $3.85 to $4.00 a pound.
>>
>> Example:
>>    Blue parched corn is written about in early journals, and found
>on trade
>> lists from the French Fur Trade in the North to the Spanish
>settlements in
>> the South, across the Mississippi Valley to the Pacific in the West. A
>> Native American product that was found on most of the trade routes
>> throughout the Louisiana Purchase and its territory.
>>     Blue parched corn is roasted and then washed in a sea salt
>brine, (as
>> done for centuries by Native Americans). Per references found in
>journals
>> about Keaton, Boone, Bridger and others, this was done to make the
>corn last
>> longer.  It's also note worthy that they coarse ground their parched
>corn
>> and mixed it with nuts, dried fruits and different sugars, depending
>on what
>> was available in their area.(probably ground as its easier on their
>palate
>> and digestive systems).   [copied from C&SM]
>>
>> Buck
>>
>> See:        http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> Date: Monday, March 08, 1999 5:55 PM
>> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >>the corn can be =
>> >>crushed to powder (a blender or food processor works well for
>this, or =
>> >>use a metate or a mortar & pestal) to make pinole, also known as =
>> >>rockahominy and other names.  A small handful consumed with the
>help of =
>> >>a big drink of water or eating a large pellet made by mixing a
>handful =
>> >>of pinole with a little water will stick to your ribs better than
>you =
>> >>can imagine.  Some folks season or flavor the pinole with salt or
>sugar =
>> >>and, sometimes, cinnamon.  Suit yourself here, but remember that
>salt =
>> >>tends to draw moisture.
>> >
>> >An alternative is to buy coarsely ground cornmeal, the kind used to
>deep
>> fry fish,
>> >mix it with maple sugar, finely chopped nuts, I use walnuts, and
>dried
>> blueberries,
>> >and drink LOTS of water when ingesting this mix.
>> >
>> >I carry a bag of this "trail mix" tied to my belt so I don't have
>to dig
>> through my
>> >pack
>> >to get to it. Be aware that LOTS of water, I say again, LOTS of
>water must
>> be
>> >consumed with this mix to prevent dehydration, as the dry corn will
>absorb
>> quite a
>> >bit
>> >of moisture from the stomach...then quite a bit more water is
>necessary for
>> good
>> >digestion.
>> >
>> >WARNING: Failure to drink LOTS of water with dry cornmeal mix will
>bind you
>> up
>> >tighter than a popcorn fart.   I speak from experience <LOL>
>> J.D.
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Paul Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
Date: 09 Mar 1999 18:11:52 -0600

Hells bells, I just scrolled down and found the url.  So much for Texas
common sense.   Paul
-----Original Message-----


>
>I cannot answer for anyone but me. But I find that your $3.85 a pound
>Store Bought palaver don't taste as good as what I make myself. Plus
>by parching my corn instead of buying it, I save about $3.50 a pound.
>Sure goes a long way towards my next can of fff.
>
>
>
>---Barry Conner <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>
>>    Why are you going to all this trouble when several dealers sell
>good
>> quality parched corn, either Flint or Blue parched corn is
>available. Goose
>> Bay Workshops, Blue Heron Mercantile or Clark & Sons Mercantile plus
>several
>> others, usually around $3.85 to $4.00 a pound.
>>
>> Example:
>>    Blue parched corn is written about in early journals, and found
>on trade
>> lists from the French Fur Trade in the North to the Spanish
>settlements in
>> the South, across the Mississippi Valley to the Pacific in the West. A
>> Native American product that was found on most of the trade routes
>> throughout the Louisiana Purchase and its territory.
>>     Blue parched corn is roasted and then washed in a sea salt
>brine, (as
>> done for centuries by Native Americans). Per references found in
>journals
>> about Keaton, Boone, Bridger and others, this was done to make the
>corn last
>> longer.  It's also note worthy that they coarse ground their parched
>corn
>> and mixed it with nuts, dried fruits and different sugars, depending
>on what
>> was available in their area.(probably ground as its easier on their
>palate
>> and digestive systems).   [copied from C&SM]
>>
>> Buck
>>
>> See:        http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> Date: Monday, March 08, 1999 5:55 PM
>> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >>the corn can be =
>> >>crushed to powder (a blender or food processor works well for
>this, or =
>> >>use a metate or a mortar & pestal) to make pinole, also known as =
>> >>rockahominy and other names.  A small handful consumed with the
>help of =
>> >>a big drink of water or eating a large pellet made by mixing a
>handful =
>> >>of pinole with a little water will stick to your ribs better than
>you =
>> >>can imagine.  Some folks season or flavor the pinole with salt or
>sugar =
>> >>and, sometimes, cinnamon.  Suit yourself here, but remember that
>salt =
>> >>tends to draw moisture.
>> >
>> >An alternative is to buy coarsely ground cornmeal, the kind used to
>deep
>> fry fish,
>> >mix it with maple sugar, finely chopped nuts, I use walnuts, and
>dried
>> blueberries,
>> >and drink LOTS of water when ingesting this mix.
>> >
>> >I carry a bag of this "trail mix" tied to my belt so I don't have
>to dig
>> through my
>> >pack
>> >to get to it. Be aware that LOTS of water, I say again, LOTS of
>water must
>> be
>> >consumed with this mix to prevent dehydration, as the dry corn will
>absorb
>> quite a
>> >bit
>> >of moisture from the stomach...then quite a bit more water is
>necessary for
>> good
>> >digestion.
>> >
>> >WARNING: Failure to drink LOTS of water with dry cornmeal mix will
>bind you
>> up
>> >tighter than a popcorn fart.   I speak from experience <LOL>
>> J.D.
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
Date: 09 Mar 1999 19:37:28 -0700

OK boys,
   "Ah, commerce rears its ugly head!" NO that's not it at all, I am not
trying to sell you anything, just answering a question once in a while on
edibles, culitivated and foraged.

   Yes Roger, blue parched corn is out of Mexico, sure there are several
other corns native to the southwest, just so happens that the blue variety
is what we can get in large quanities and is by far one of the more popular
parched corns.

This is from one of our ads:
    Blue parched corn is written about in early journals, and found on trade
lists from the French Fur Trade in the North to the Spanish settlements in
the South, across the Mississippi Valley to the Pacific in the West. A
Native American product that was found on most of the trade routes
throughout the Louisiana Purchase and its territory.

    Blue parched corn is roasted and then washed in a sea salt brine, (as
done for centuries by Native Americans). Per references found in journals
about Keaton, Boone, Bridger and others, this was done to make corn last
longer.  It's also note worthy that they coarse ground their parched corn
and mixed it with nuts, dried fruits and different sugars, depending on what
was available in their area.(probably ground as its easier on their palate
and digestive systems).  A produce of Mexico's trade.

   The four wholesalers of parched corn use a commerical coffee roaster to
produce their products, parched corn is only one of several items roasted.
The cost of fuel, electricity, labor and product material, packaging runs
the cost up considerability, look at what coffee is going for. After a
finished roast, blue corn is washed in a sea salt brine, left to dry, more
time and handling, before its ever packaged. I've seen it as high as $4.75
per pound, we have tried to keep its price down at $3.95, but some of the
folks (dealers we sell to) still jack it up, sorry.  I really think another
reason Bob as for the high price is two of the four roasters have had to
been rebuilt after having fires from the dust of the parched corn,
understand that's like $8500 a wack and guess who the cost is pasted on to,
right. I buy 300-400 lbs. at a time to get the best price and make a deal to
the dealer and traders.  Look at coffee, it just keeps going up, don't know
how much the market will bear.  The only romance is the money the wholesaler
gets, the farmer and the retailer don't see it.

   Dave can tell you, there's very little profit in this business, with
advertising, postage and phone bills, its touch and go. Would hate like heck
to try and make a living off of period edibles, hell the suppliers dry up
quicker than some products that I have to trash, if it wasn't for the
fellowship and friends we have made, like Dave and many of you others, I
would have never started this business. Just so happened i knew a few
sources and it grew from there, like anything one works with.  For example I
live in Colorado, work for the telephone company and was taking classes in
Lisle IL, low and be hold a customer lived in that city, Dave Kanger. We
started talking on e-mail and he was nice enought to pick me up and take me
to a great group of folks that have a club near by, had a great evening
visiting, if not for this little business it would never of happened, how
can you put a price on that.  Sorry to get so long in a reply.

Buck

-----Original Message-----


>>On the other hand, Buck sells some fine goods.  His barley grits makes a
fine
>>trekkin breakfast and the millet flour makes some good hotcakes.  The
yaller
>>peas are a delicacy when laced with a big chunk of fatback.  You really
owe it
>>to yourself to check out his website for some well researched period foods
for
>>sale.
>
>Ah, commerce rears its ugly head! <G> Didn't realize Buck had stuff for
>sale, thought we were having a historical discussion.
>
>Maybe Buck can answer a question...since corn sells for plus or minus $2.00
>for a *bushel*, why is parched corn a bargain at $4.00 per *pound*? Just
>the romance of it? I understand about paying for romance, but that's a hell
>of a lot of value added! <G>
>
>I'll check out the site, TOF, thanks.
>
>Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
>non illegitimi carborundum est
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
Date: 09 Mar 1999 19:40:01 -0700

http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/
-----Original Message-----


>Could you please send me the web site?  I missed it....
>
>[e-mail]
>
>Thanks.... :)
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Monday, March 08, 1999 11:24 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
>
>
>>Bob Spencer writes:
>>> Guess I'll have to 'fess up, Barry, I'm even cheaper.
>>
>>No one will disagree with that....specially them that knows ya.
>>
>>On the other hand, Buck sells some fine goods.  His barley grits makes a
>fine
>>trekkin breakfast and the millet flour makes some good hotcakes.  The
>yaller
>>peas are a delicacy when laced with a big chunk of fatback.  You really
owe
>it
>>to yourself to check out his website for some well researched period foods
>for
>>sale.
>>
>>Dave Kanger
>>
>>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
Date: 09 Mar 1999 19:54:37 -0700

Thank You.

Buck
-----Original Message-----


>
>Bob Spencer wrote:
>
>> Ah, commerce rears its ugly head! <G> Didn't realize Buck had stuff for
>> sale, thought we were having a historical discussion.
>>
>> Maybe Buck can answer a question...since corn sells for plus or minus
$2.00
>> for a *bushel*, why is parched corn a bargain at $4.00 per *pound*? Just
>> the romance of it? I understand about paying for romance, but that's a
hell
>> of a lot of value added! <G>
>>
>
>Cause the utility companies charge for the energy used to parch the corn.
Plus
>someone has to stand there and stir the corn, and everyone figures that
their time
>is worth at least a couple of bucks.
>
>--
>Frank Vital
>Auburn University Mechanical Engineering Senior
>personal page: http://www.auburn.edu/~vitalfr/
>
>web master for: http://www.bpaccuracy.com
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
Date: 09 Mar 1999 21:26:53 -0800



Barry Conner wrote:

> d.
>
>    Yes Roger, blue parched corn is out of Mexico, sure there are several
> other corns native to the southwest, just so happens that the blue variety
> is what we can get in large quanities and is by far one of the more popular
> parched corns.

Buck,

Wasn't trying to work up a frackis over this, just adding what little I know to
the original short post. I  always appreciate the full story. Thanks for the
additional comemtary. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Jackson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
Date: 10 Mar 1999 04:27:31 PST

Can I get some help on the proper powder charge for a 58 cal. North West
trade gun?
MadJack



Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
Date: 10 Mar 1999 06:40:39 -0600

Yep, Keep addin powder til ye cain't stand it no more. Then back off til ye
ears quit ringin. That'll bout doer.
Pendleton
----------
> From: Bill Jackson <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
> Date: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 6:27 AM
>
> Can I get some help on the proper powder charge for a 58 cal. North West
> trade gun?
> MadJack
>
>
>
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
Date: 10 Mar 1999 06:35:05 -0700

No problem, I always enjoy what you have to say. We all learn from each
other and hopefully no-one gets burned.

If everyone uses common sense and weights out what works for them, uses what
can improve things for their use, everyone is further ahead and had some
interesting reading too.

Thanks Roger

Buck

PS
Let's becareful with remarks like I just read about how much powder for a
.58 cal gun. Have seen a few mishaps from new shooters, one lost an eye, the
other has a useless right hand. Remember we all were green when starting on
this trail.

-----Original Message-----


>
>
>Barry Conner wrote:
>
>> d.
>>
>>    Yes Roger, blue parched corn is out of Mexico, sure there are several
>> other corns native to the southwest, just so happens that the blue
variety
>> is what we can get in large quanities and is by far one of the more
popular
>> parched corns.
>
>Buck,
>
>Wasn't trying to work up a frackis over this, just adding what little I
know to
>the original short post. I  always appreciate the full story. Thanks for
the
>additional comemtary. I remain.....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Paul Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
Date: 10 Mar 1999 08:13:18 -0600

Buck--- Having imported coffee, can agree that the profit and headache make
for a narrow margin.  Now I just save the effort and buy from you.

Keep up the good work, and thanks for the information.  Paul
-----Original Message-----


>OK boys,
>   "Ah, commerce rears its ugly head!" NO that's not it at all, I am not
>trying to sell you anything, just answering a question once in a while on
>edibles, culitivated and foraged.
>
>   Yes Roger, blue parched corn is out of Mexico, sure there are several
>other corns native to the southwest, just so happens that the blue variety
>is what we can get in large quanities and is by far one of the more popular
>parched corns.
>
>This is from one of our ads:
>    Blue parched corn is written about in early journals, and found on
trade
>lists from the French Fur Trade in the North to the Spanish settlements in
>the South, across the Mississippi Valley to the Pacific in the West. A
>Native American product that was found on most of the trade routes
>throughout the Louisiana Purchase and its territory.
>
>    Blue parched corn is roasted and then washed in a sea salt brine, (as
>done for centuries by Native Americans). Per references found in journals
>about Keaton, Boone, Bridger and others, this was done to make corn last
>longer.  It's also note worthy that they coarse ground their parched corn
>and mixed it with nuts, dried fruits and different sugars, depending on
what
>was available in their area.(probably ground as its easier on their palate
>and digestive systems).  A produce of Mexico's trade.
>
>   The four wholesalers of parched corn use a commerical coffee roaster to
>produce their products, parched corn is only one of several items roasted.
>The cost of fuel, electricity, labor and product material, packaging runs
>the cost up considerability, look at what coffee is going for. After a
>finished roast, blue corn is washed in a sea salt brine, left to dry, more
>time and handling, before its ever packaged. I've seen it as high as $4.75
>per pound, we have tried to keep its price down at $3.95, but some of the
>folks (dealers we sell to) still jack it up, sorry.  I really think another
>reason Bob as for the high price is two of the four roasters have had to
>been rebuilt after having fires from the dust of the parched corn,
>understand that's like $8500 a wack and guess who the cost is pasted on to,
>right. I buy 300-400 lbs. at a time to get the best price and make a deal
to
>the dealer and traders.  Look at coffee, it just keeps going up, don't know
>how much the market will bear.  The only romance is the money the
wholesaler
>gets, the farmer and the retailer don't see it.
>
>   Dave can tell you, there's very little profit in this business, with
>advertising, postage and phone bills, its touch and go. Would hate like
heck
>to try and make a living off of period edibles, hell the suppliers dry up
>quicker than some products that I have to trash, if it wasn't for the
>fellowship and friends we have made, like Dave and many of you others, I
>would have never started this business. Just so happened i knew a few
>sources and it grew from there, like anything one works with.  For example
I
>live in Colorado, work for the telephone company and was taking classes in
>Lisle IL, low and be hold a customer lived in that city, Dave Kanger. We
>started talking on e-mail and he was nice enought to pick me up and take me
>to a great group of folks that have a club near by, had a great evening
>visiting, if not for this little business it would never of happened, how
>can you put a price on that.  Sorry to get so long in a reply.
>
>Buck
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Monday, March 08, 1999 9:40 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
>
>
>>>On the other hand, Buck sells some fine goods.  His barley grits makes a
>fine
>>>trekkin breakfast and the millet flour makes some good hotcakes.  The
>yaller
>>>peas are a delicacy when laced with a big chunk of fatback.  You really
>owe it
>>>to yourself to check out his website for some well researched period
foods
>for
>>>sale.
>>
>>Ah, commerce rears its ugly head! <G> Didn't realize Buck had stuff for
>>sale, thought we were having a historical discussion.
>>
>>Maybe Buck can answer a question...since corn sells for plus or minus
$2.00
>>for a *bushel*, why is parched corn a bargain at $4.00 per *pound*? Just
>>the romance of it? I understand about paying for romance, but that's a
hell
>>of a lot of value added! <G>
>>
>>I'll check out the site, TOF, thanks.
>>
>>Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
>>non illegitimi carborundum est
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
Date: 10 Mar 1999 09:26:28 EST

In a message dated 3/10/99 6:28:55 AM Central Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

> Can I get some help on the proper powder charge for a 58 cal. North West
>  trade gun?

60 to 70 gr. of 3F will give you a good accurate load out to 50 yards.  Use a
patched .570 ball.  You may experience a fouling ring about a foot from the
muzzle under certain conditions which can be irritating at times.  If using
unpatched balls, be prepared to swab frequently, unless using a lubed wad.

OldFox



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn or how to load a .58 tradegun
Date: 10 Mar 1999 08:45:21 -0600

I find that about 2 tablespoons full of finely powdered, heavily roasted =
parched corn works best in my tradegun under a cylindrical projectile =
drilled from one of my ex-wife's biscuits...they're just to hard to make =
'em round.  No patch is needed, just a little lard on the biscuit to =
prevent damage to the bore.  Some of her cornbread, pounded to a =
suitable size, makes good birdshot if used with under and over wads =
whittled from her gravy.
Lanney Ratcliff
expert on the varied uses of parched corn and ex-wives
Bill
I hope you can take a joke.  Just funnin' you about the parched corn =
load.  However, if somebody doesn't change the subject line to "loads =
for .58 tradegun" pretty soon the humorless types that are lurking on =
the list will surely start bitching.
I use a pretty mild load (about 65 grains of fff) under a patched .590 =
roundball in my .62 for casual target shooting.  I haven't worked up a =
hunting load yet.
I would start with something lighter for you .58 and work up slowly =
until the accuracy and power of the load suits you.  Your gun will tell =
you what you need to know.
YMOS
Lanney
-----Original Message-----


>Can I get some help on the proper powder charge for a 58 cal. North =
West=20
>trade gun?
>MadJack
>
>
>
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: MtMan-List: how to load a .58 tradegun
Date: 10 Mar 1999 09:42:41 -0500

I like Lanny's idea...
I use 75-85 grains fff for my .62 for hunting, only had to trail one dear in
10 yrs with that load, sets 'em right off their feet.  Uncleaned tow for
patching for my roundball.
D

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


I find that about 2 tablespoons full of finely powdered, heavily roasted
parched corn works best in my tradegun under a cylindrical projectile
drilled from one of my ex-wife's biscuits...they're just to hard to make 'em
round.  No patch is needed, just a little lard on the biscuit to prevent
damage to the bore.  Some of her cornbread, pounded to a suitable size,
makes good birdshot if used with under and over wads whittled from her
gravy.
Lanney Ratcliff
expert on the varied uses of parched corn and ex-wives
Bill
I hope you can take a joke.  Just funnin' you about the parched corn load.
However, if somebody doesn't change the subject line to "loads for .58
tradegun" pretty soon the humorless types that are lurking on the list will
surely start bitching.
I use a pretty mild load (about 65 grains of fff) under a patched .590
roundball in my .62 for casual target shooting.  I haven't worked up a
hunting load yet.
I would start with something lighter for you .58 and work up slowly until
the accuracy and power of the load suits you.  Your gun will tell you what
you need to know.
YMOS
Lanney
-----Original Message-----


>Can I get some help on the proper powder charge for a 58 cal. North West
>trade gun?
>MadJack
>
>
>
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>







-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Charlie P. Webb" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
Date: 10 Mar 1999 10:39:29 -0700

Must admit I am confused about these posts. :-)  I have never tried
to use parched corn as a main charge in one of my shooters.  How
fine do you grind it?  I am also interested in this process as the price
Buck quotes per pound is nearly half of what I normally pay for
Black. Buck do you offer ffg and fffg parched corn? How about
ffffg for priming flinters? <<<GGG>>>
A cornfused,
Old Coyote


On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 06:40:39 -0600 "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Yep, Keep addin powder til ye cain't stand it no more. Then back off
>til ye
>ears quit ringin. That'll bout doer.
>Pendleton
>----------
>> From: Bill Jackson <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail]
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
>> Date: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 6:27 AM
>>
>> Can I get some help on the proper powder charge for a 58 cal. North
>West
>> trade gun?
>> MadJack
>>
>>
>>
>> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Jackson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: how to load a .58 tradegun
Date: 10 Mar 1999 09:49:21 PST

aye, no harm taken here, been around to many camps to be offended by
this little humor. I got my trade gun from Curly, who used to own North
Star trade guns. I want to learn how to shoot the trade right.
Madjack



Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn/TG load
Date: 10 Mar 1999 09:52:11 -0800



Bill Jackson wrote:

> Can I get some help on the proper powder charge for a 58 cal. North West
> trade gun?
> MadJack

MadJack,

Start with about 60 grains of parched corn and work up and down from there.
70-80 grains ought to be tops and just below 60 ought to be bottom. Blue
corn seems to be the favorite but the reds and chinmarks will work and I
have some that is dang near black that should work but never tried it. Parch
it up in a skillet, oven, or corn popper and grind it up to what ever
fineness you want. Seems to go down better. <G>

Just funnin ya. In all seriousness, I have good luck with fffg in my Tulle'
(20 ga) with about a 70 gr. load so your .58 should do well in that range
too. Just work up a load like you would a rifle. What ever combination works
best in your gun. A bit over grain weight of powder per cal. seems to be a
good starting place. Good luck and let us know if you run into problems. I
remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>
>
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: L A Hazard <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Broken Hand Fitzpatrick
Date: 10 Mar 1999 13:26:44 -0500

This is my first time posting to the list. I have enjoyed learning quite a
bit about what it was like to be a mountain man via many of the list
members discussions about doing things the way the original mountain men
did it.

What I am writing about is to ask a question. Do any of you have any
information regarding Broken Hand? He is my great,great,great Uncle. His
sister married into the McCarthy line from which my dad came.

I have read all of the material by Hafen and Carter that I could get my
hands on. As well as many other authors who have included bits and pieces
of his life and work.

I am currently working on two projects involving his life. One is a factual
updated biography, or as factual as history can be. After all, much of
history is interpreted through the eyes of the historian! I am especially
interested in examining any relationship between his death and the
beginning of the governments "final" attempts to "solve" the "Indian
problem" by waging war against them. This aspect is what the second project
is about. A  novel about something that has been a "rumor" within my family
for a long time. There were some in my family that had the belief that he
did NOT die from natural causes, i.e. pneumonia, but rather that he was
"removed" from the picture because as Indian Agent, he was against what
some in the government wanted to do. Remember, this was a time of growth
and expansion, with the Gold Rush and the desire to expand the railroads.
Within six months of his death, all hell broke loose. If none of the rumor
is true, it still makes for a great mystery novel!

Although I may not agree with his position in all aspects, (i.e. his desire
to absorb the Indians into mainstream society and to utilize military force
to assure their cooperation with the treaties being signed) I do believe he
wanted to make sure that the government held up their side of the treaties
as well. I believe it was his failed attempts to hold the government to
their word that resulted in his family questioning if there might have been
a conspiracy on the part of some to remove him.

Does anyone have any ideas about where I might find copies of his own
writings, esp his reports to the BIA? I am planning a trip to the Library
of Congress and would appreciate ANY help in narrowing down what sources to
pursue?

Thanks for your time and consideration of my request.

Louis A Hazard
1710 B Walker Aver
Greensboro, NC 27403
336-275-6761
[e-mail]

P.S. Anyone interested in pursuing this topic with me, I am more than happy
to share authorship. My goal is not to get some kind of credit for the
project, but rather to introduce Broken Hand to new generations. I must
have 3-4 dozen books that mention "the famous mountain man Thomas "Broken
Hand" Fitzpatrick" but never go into detail about WHY he is "famous."
Mention Kit Carson, and people all know the name, if not the man. Mention
Broken Hand, and hardly anyone knows who I am talking about.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn n Trade guns
Date: 10 Mar 1999 11:47:05 -0800 (PST)

On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 [e-mail] wrote:
> 60 to 70 gr. of 3F will give you a good accurate load out to 50 yards.  Use a
> patched .570 ball.  You may experience a fouling ring about a foot from the
> muzzle under certain conditions which can be irritating at times.  If using
> unpatched balls, be prepared to swab frequently, unless using a lubed wad.
> OldFox

Boys... ya betta check the heading afore you start writing.  Trade guns
and loads ain't got nuttin to do with parched corn.

Subject headings are vital to going back later and retrieving worthwhile
discussions.

Regards

Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho
NMLRA member 058863
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sickler, Louis L" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: upbraid
Date: 10 Mar 1999 13:43:48 -0700

See, we knew we we're going to get yelled at over this.....

> ----------
> From:     Lee Newbill
> Reply To:     [e-mail]
> Sent:     Wednesday, March 10, 1999 12:47
> To:     [e-mail]
> Subject:     Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn n Trade guns
>
> On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 [e-mail] wrote:
> > 60 to 70 gr. of 3F will give you a good accurate load out to 50 yards.
> Use a
> > patched .570 ball.  You may experience a fouling ring about a foot from
> the
> > muzzle under certain conditions which can be irritating at times.  If
> using
> > unpatched balls, be prepared to swab frequently, unless using a lubed
> wad.
> > OldFox
>
> Boys... ya betta check the heading afore you start writing.  Trade guns
> and loads ain't got nuttin to do with parched corn.
>
> Subject headings are vital to going back later and retrieving worthwhile
> discussions.
>
> Regards
>
> Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho
> NMLRA member 058863
> email at [e-mail]
> Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
> http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186
>
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: how to load a .58 tradegun
Date: 10 Mar 1999 18:28:08 -0600

Good.  Sometimes I just can't help myself.  Maybe we can share a =
campfire and perhaps a jug sometime and swap stories. =20
Lanney
-----Original Message-----


>aye, no harm taken here, been around to many camps to be offended by=20
>this little humor. I got my trade gun from Curly, who used to own North =

>Star trade guns. I want to learn how to shoot the trade right.
>Madjack
>
>
>
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "McKee" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: upbraid
Date: 10 Mar 1999 19:50:51 -0600

Some people you could'nt please if you hung um with a new rope.  Regards:
Long John
-----Original Message-----


>See, we knew we we're going to get yelled at over this.....
>
>> ----------
>> From: Lee Newbill
>> Reply To: [e-mail]
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 12:47
>> To: [e-mail]
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn n Trade guns
>>
>> On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 [e-mail] wrote:
>> > 60 to 70 gr. of 3F will give you a good accurate load out to 50 yards.
>> Use a
>> > patched .570 ball.  You may experience a fouling ring about a foot from
>> the
>> > muzzle under certain conditions which can be irritating at times.  If
>> using
>> > unpatched balls, be prepared to swab frequently, unless using a lubed
>> wad.
>> > OldFox
>>
>> Boys... ya betta check the heading afore you start writing.  Trade guns
>> and loads ain't got nuttin to do with parched corn.
>>
>> Subject headings are vital to going back later and retrieving worthwhile
>> discussions.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho
>> NMLRA member 058863
>> email at [e-mail]
>> Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
>> http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186
>>
>>
>>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: special grinds and such
Date: 10 Mar 1999 19:03:36 -0700

Charlie,

If ground carefully you can get a true FFF powder out of blue parched corn,
and if you like I'll tell you where to pack it <<<GGG>>>, I'm sure it won't
be the first time you were told that, seeing how you are dealing with the
members of the Colorado State Muzzle Association now. I would be told where
to put it several times a year after a Board Meeting, isn't it fun all the
baloney we get ourselves into.

One serious note, we all have a good time with what Dean has setup, lets try
and make his job as easy as possible, with correct "subject titles", he's
very busy with several other issues, web sites, etc. and doesn't have time
to wet nurse us too.

One other thing please be careful with replies where someone may just try
what is suggested being new to the sport or whatever, we get enough bad
press as it is with the anti- everybodies. Don't need to give them fuel to
help these groups with their daily attacks, sad but true, they'll turn any
and everything possible around to their benefit. Was on the NRA Whittington
Board for a period, the cramp that we would see being said would make any of
you sick.  Sorry for getting on the soap-box.

Buck


-----Original Message-----


>Must admit I am confused about these posts. :-)  I have never tried
>to use parched corn as a main charge in one of my shooters.  How
>fine do you grind it?  I am also interested in this process as the price
>Buck quotes per pound is nearly half of what I normally pay for
>Black. Buck do you offer ffg and fffg parched corn? How about
>ffffg for priming flinters? <<<GGG>>>
>A cornfused,
>Old Coyote
>
>
>On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 06:40:39 -0600 "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
>writes:
>>Yep, Keep addin powder til ye cain't stand it no more. Then back off
>>til ye
>>ears quit ringin. That'll bout doer.
>>Pendleton
>>----------
>>> From: Bill Jackson <[e-mail]>
>>> To: [e-mail]
>>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
>>> Date: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 6:27 AM
>>>
>>> Can I get some help on the proper powder charge for a 58 cal. North
>>West
>>> trade gun?
>>> MadJack
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>>
>>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jody Carlson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Snapsacks?
Date: 10 Mar 1999 20:14:46 -0600

Members of the MtManList;

Are any of you familiar with a carrying instrument called a 'snapsack'?  I
am curious as to it's construction, appearance, and authenticity.  Perhaps
a picture on someone website?

Any information would be greatly appreciated.  In advance I thank you, and
rest assured I remain,...

YMHOS,



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Snapsacks?
Date: 10 Mar 1999 20:38:50 -0600

Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary lists the following:

SNAP'SACK, n.  A knapsack. [Vulgar.]

KNAP'SACK, n. nap'sack.  A soldier's bag, carried on his back, and =
containing necessaries of food and clothing.  It may be of leather or =
coarse cloth.

I hope this helps, at least a little.
Lanney Ratcliff

=20
-----Original Message-----


>Members of the MtManList;
>
>Are any of you familiar with a carrying instrument called a 'snapsack'? =
 I
>am curious as to it's construction, appearance, and authenticity.  =
Perhaps
>a picture on someone website?
>
>Any information would be greatly appreciated.  In advance I thank you, =
and
>rest assured I remain,...
>
>YMHOS,
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Recipes
Date: 11 Mar 1999 06:54:54 -0700 (MST)




Someone mentioned the other day that this "Parched Corn" was
so easy to do, and there was little work involved in making
Parched Corn.

So could you share the Recipe.

B

--
"The Price Of Freedom
     Is Not Free"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Patterson question
Date: 11 Mar 1999 09:19:59 EST

Hello the list!

Just a quick question on a pistol. Does anyone know if there are any
documented cases of the 1836 Patterson revolver (the first Colt, the one with
the folding trigger) in the fur trade prior to 1840? Any sources recommended
that I could look into?

Thanks much,
Jim



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
Date: 11 Mar 1999 09:46:03 EST

Buck,
somewhere, somehow, I missed your address and company name, etc. can you
forward it.  Thanks in advance.

Wade



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Recipes
Date: 11 Mar 1999 09:37:36 -0800



"BRUCE S. DE LIS" wrote:

> Someone mentioned the other day that this "Parched Corn" was
> so easy to do, and there was little work involved in making
> Parched Corn.
>
> So could you share the Recipe.

Bruce,

This is how I do it. And remember I use hard indian corn. Sweet corn
works too but it hardly needs sweetening as I later explain. Start out
with dry kernels rubbed off the cob not cut off.

I like to use a cast iron skillet but I also have a popcorn popper that
swirls the kernels around on a hot "plate" under a clear bowl/lid and it
works good too. Any thing like the above will work.

Use fairly high heat but watch out for scorching, gives the finished
product a very bad taste.
In a skillet, cover the bottom with a layer or two of kernels and no oil
if you want it to keep without going rancid.
Stir constantly to keep from scorching and to continually expose all
sides of the kernels.
Listen and watch for the snapping and splitting open of the kernels.
When you don't hear those sounds or see the kernels splitting open
anymore you are done.

You can do the salt brine wash at this point and turn the parched
kernels out onto a plate, etc. or you can turn the heat down and while
they are still hot add some brown sugar, maple sugar or molasses to the
skillet to coat the kernels with a bit of sweetness. A quarter cup of
brown sugar to a batch of kernels in a 10" skillet is about right.
Continue to stir the mess until the sugar melts and sticks to the
kernels. Turn the mess out onto a plate to cool. Sugar coated parched
corn usually doesn't last long after everyone finds out you have it but
it does draw moisture and thus doesn't make for a very good trail food
in moist weather. Anything you don't understand just let me know. I
remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>
>
> B
>
> --
> "The Price Of Freedom
>      Is Not Free"




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Recipes
Date: 11 Mar 1999 15:25:09 -0600

This is a recipe that I posted a few days earlier.  It works well for =
me, but there are probably many others that work just as good.
Lanney Ratcliff

Some folks use a skillet and grease, but you can just buy Korn Nuts at =
7-11 if that will suit you.  Traditionally dry corn was cooked by =
throwing kernels in hot ashes for a while.=20
I use a sheet cake pan ( a glorified cookie sheet, if you ask me) and =
place a single layer of dried corn kernals in it and place it in a 350 =
degree oven.  After a few minutes you will hear the corn "popping".  The =
corn doesn't make popcorn, rather it "snaps and cracks" and will turn a =
light brown color.  Remove from the oven and cool.  The corn can be =
eaten as is and will store pretty much eternally.  Or the corn can be =
crushed to powder (a blender or food processor works well for this, or =
use a metate or a mortar & pestal) to make pinole, also known as =
rockahominy and other names.  A small handful consumed with the help of =
a big drink of water or eating a large pellet made by mixing a handful =
of pinole with a little water will stick to your ribs better than you =
can imagine.  Some folks season or flavor the pinole with salt or sugar =
and, sometimes, cinnamon.  Suit yourself here, but remember that salt =
tends to draw moisture.
Buy your corn from a health food store or a VERY well stocked grocery =
store.  Feed store corn might have additives that you may not want to =
eat and seed corn will almost certainly have some additives, including =
pesticides and fungicides and=20
God knows what other "cides".  The health food store will possibly have =
blue corn or "Indian" corn.  Even better.
Remember this, plain pinole is bland to the highest degree.  It can be =
counted on to feed you but it is best relegated to "iron ration" status. =
 A steady diet of the stuff will soon have you eating tree bark.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----


>
>
>
>Someone mentioned the other day that this "Parched Corn" was
>so easy to do, and there was little work involved in making
>Parched Corn. =20
>
>So could you share the Recipe.
>
>B
>
>--
>"The Price Of Freedom
>     Is Not Free"=20
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Brian McNutt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: greenhorn joins up
Date: 11 Mar 1999 17:15:24 -0600

Howdy
Just joined the list, and wanted to say hi. My name is Brian, from
Weatherford, TX. I was lucky enough to get to Friendship once, and ready to
go back. All I own in the way of buckskinning is the first four books, and a
TC Hawkins 50.
Anyone from Texas please drop me a line; I'd like to know what (if anything)
is a'happening in the BIG state.
Thanks!
Brian







-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Paul Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: greenhorn joins up
Date: 11 Mar 1999 18:58:21 -0600

Brian:  Try and come to the Comanche Peak Rendezvous the second weekend in
April.   It is literally a modest stones throw away from where you live
(just West of Alvarado and East of Cleburne).  I will mail you a flyer if
you send me your address.  You will meet some fine people, including more
than a few AMM Brothers and a number of longhunters.  Even Little Lanney our
mascot dwarf will be in attendance (he publishes the newsletter for the
group and keeps me out of harms way in certain circumstances). Bring your
Hawkin, a knife, hawk and a sense of humor.  Regards,  Paul
-----Original Message-----


>Howdy
>Just joined the list, and wanted to say hi. My name is Brian, from
>Weatherford, TX. I was lucky enough to get to Friendship once, and ready to
>go back. All I own in the way of buckskinning is the first four books, and
a
>TC Hawkins 50.
>Anyone from Texas please drop me a line; I'd like to know what (if
anything)
>is a'happening in the BIG state.
>Thanks!
>Brian
>
>
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Ferguson rifle
Date: 11 Mar 1999 20:10:11 EST

I guess today is just my day for strange firearms questions, but the big color
ad in the current issue of Muzzleloader has me wondering about the Ferguson
rifle. Does anyone know if there were any examples of this weapon that made it
into the fur trade, perhaps captured from the 71st Highlanders after their
defeat at Brandywine?

Much obliged,
Jim



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: address request by Wade
Date: 11 Mar 1999 19:03:10 -0700

Lanney & Roger,
I'm in the process of working over my personal web site :
http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html   new site will have the
usual buttons to take you to a number of areas; travel, camp wares, living
history sites to weapons, the tradegun of coarse. Would like to use your
recipes for parched corn along with a few others collected in the last 30-40
years. Am trying to load this site with everything I can, to be as complete
as possible in hopes of helping the new person and a few old timers that are
looking for information to sources, etc.. Will use lots of links like Lee's
and Dave's for additional information, if I get their permission. Need to
get it put together then send them samples for their approval. Should have
this site on line by mid summer, have got a good supply of information and
some really neat resources. The old site will stay the same until this has
been gone over a dozen times and proofed by the lady that handles the fancy
stuff, then incorpated into the new site using the same URL.

Wade the business site is: http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/
probably get hammered for giving it out.

By the way Dennis Miles made me a pair of great knives that are excellent
quality, so if anyone needs a good knife give him some consideration at:
http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1   you won't be sorry.

Buck
dba / Clark & sons Mercantile, Inc.
_________________________________
-----Original Message-----


>Buck,
>somewhere, somehow, I missed your address and company name, etc. can you
>forward it.  Thanks in advance.
>
>Wade
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: address request by Wade
Date: 11 Mar 1999 20:38:16 -0600

You certainly have my permission to use my recipe for parched corn or =
anything else of interest that I have posted to this site.  Thanks for =
considering it good enough to use.=20
I have three knives by Dennis's hand plus an awesome woodsman's hatchet, =
a few assorted buckles, strikers and other assorted gew gaws.  First =
class all the way.   He is a pleasure to deal with, won't take all year =
to complete an order and prices his goods fairly.  What else could you =
want?
YMOS
Lanney
-----Original Message-----


>Lanney & Roger,
>I'm in the process of working over my personal web site :
>http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html   new site will have the
>usual buttons to take you to a number of areas; travel, camp wares, =
living
>history sites to weapons, the tradegun of coarse. Would like to use =
your
>recipes for parched corn along with a few others collected in the last =
30-40
>years. Am trying to load this site with everything I can, to be as =
complete
>as possible in hopes of helping the new person and a few old timers =
that are
>looking for information to sources, etc.. Will use lots of links like =
Lee's
>and Dave's for additional information, if I get their permission. Need =
to
>get it put together then send them samples for their approval. Should =
have
>this site on line by mid summer, have got a good supply of information =
and
>some really neat resources. The old site will stay the same until this =
has
>been gone over a dozen times and proofed by the lady that handles the =
fancy
>stuff, then incorpated into the new site using the same URL.
>
>Wade the business site is: http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/
>probably get hammered for giving it out.
>
>By the way Dennis Miles made me a pair of great knives that are =
excellent
>quality, so if anyone needs a good knife give him some consideration =
at:
>http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1   you won't be sorry.
>
>Buck
>dba / Clark & sons Mercantile, Inc.
>_________________________________
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Thursday, March 11, 1999 7:47 AM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
>
>
>>Buck,
>>somewhere, somehow, I missed your address and company name, etc. can =
you
>>forward it.  Thanks in advance.
>>
>>Wade
>>
>>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: address request by Wade
Date: 11 Mar 1999 19:34:45 -0800



Barry Conner wrote:

> Lanney & Roger,
>  Would like to use your
> recipes for parched corn along with a few others collected in the last 30-40
> years.

Barry,

Like Lanney said, your welcome to them and we'd be honored. Sounds like it will
be a great site when your done. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
Date: 11 Mar 1999 22:41:43 -0500

> Can I get some help on the proper powder charge for a 58 cal. North West
> trade gun?
> MadJack

MadJack,
jus last fall i got a "northwester" flinter, mine's a .62 cal./20 gauge
beaut made by a feller named jackie brown up in mississippi
(http://www.moad.com/jbrown/) an i had a heck of a time figurin' out the
lead 'n powder size, mostly cause the barrel was hand turned like the
ol' days. in them thar days the gunsmith would give ya the right size
mold fer the gun an' probly sum tips on loadin, jus call it part o' the
fun figurin' it out nowadays. i reckon it's a lifelong pursuit
considerin' fowlin' options such as roundball and patch size, shot size,
charge load, what yer huntin an' such. i've since made meat with my
smoothey by killin' deer, squirrel, rabbit, coyote, dove, quail, ducks
and soon this spring turkey. i reckon my powder load is generaly around
60-70 grains FF, although i've never counted. shot size load equal to
powder load with wad options from lubed premade to green grass.
roundball fer mine is.595 patched with the thinest ticking i could find.
i'll be puttin' it to the test at the competitions up at the
southwestern regional ronde in waldron arkansas
(http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus/swrr.htm) in a few weeks, hope to see ya
thar!
bill "missouri red" lynch
somewheres in south texas



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: RANDAL J BUBLITZ <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patterson question
Date: 11 Mar 1999 21:19:14 -0800

Jim,  I believe bent's Fort had the Patterson on it's inventory list in
1838.  Also, Kit Carson had a pair at the 1838 Rendezvous.  This is from
my memory, so don't quote me. This will give you an idea on where to look
for documentation though......   hope it helps.    Hardtack
PS-don't carry these loaded {right barney ?  :)   }



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Paterson question
Date: 12 Mar 1999 01:05:27 EST

Paterson's? Loaded? Capped? Moi?   YOU CAN TAKE MY WORD FOR IT, it ain't safe;
'les of course you got double or triple restraining straps on that there
holster.  That's how i got the name Barney Fife!!! (and now i'm only allowed
to carry one bullet, in my pocket) <ggggg>

Randy's recollection is right: Paterson's were being used in the Southwest for
sure, and Carson was recorded as having worn a brace of 'em into rendezvous in
1838 or thereabouts.  The Texas Rangers got them in 1836, then asked Colt to
modify them 'cuz they could not be loaded on horseback. In '39 they received
the redesigned model with the loading lever attached to the frame; at which
point the 'old' model become obsolete, and were most likely sent up the trail.

I'll be looking for some ref's, and will post them ASAP.   yhs, Barney Fife
aka Shootz Himself aka SureShot.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Laughlin <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: The Bloomery
Date: 12 Mar 1999 11:06:45 -0800

I have put up some pics of the bloomery from the Ken Weaver Hammerfest.
Go to our home page and then to the Bloomery link to view them.  I'll
get some more of them up shortly.  Enjoy.
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/blythe/2/adobe.html




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Longhunter/Mountain Man question
Date: 12 Mar 1999 16:04:46 EST

Hello the list!

Back when I was on the list about a year ago (before I accidentally kilt my
computer) someone mentioned that they had run across a source whereas a party
in the early fur trade era was heading into the mountains. They needed guides,
and they wound up hiring two Virginia longhunters who were on their way out of
the mountains to guide them in.

Anyone know where I ought to be looking for such an incident?

Thanks,
Jim



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Roy Parker)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ferguson rifle
Date: 12 Mar 1999 23:33:33 GMT

I can't answer the request, but have to say it really is an imposing
piece.  First one I saw was at the 1987 SWRR that Gene High built from
drawings he'd found somewhere.   I never shot it, but did spend a
couple hours unscrewing and rescrewing (no lewd comments from T.A.B.
members required, or wanted at this point) the breech/triggerguard
mechanism.  Marvelous piece of work.  He only made the one rifle AIR,
but folks around Dallas (ya listening Lightfoot?) can correct me if
I'm wrong.  I've got a souvenier, souveneier, sooveneer,  keepsake
photo of that SW with me in my BAR duds and that rifle.  Gotta get to
Kings Mt next time I go back to visit my ma in the Smokies.


On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:10:11 EST, you wrote:

>I guess today is just my day for strange firearms questions, but the big=
 color
>ad in the current issue of Muzzleloader has me wondering about the =
Ferguson
>rifle. Does anyone know if there were any examples of this weapon that =
made it
>into the fur trade, perhaps captured from the 71st Highlanders after =
their
>defeat at Brandywine?
>
>Much obliged,
>Jim
>

Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including =
"BS".
1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Longhunter/Mountain Man question
Date: 12 Mar 1999 19:42:31 EST

In a message dated 99-03-12 16:22:31 EST, you write:

<< They needed guides,
 and they wound up hiring two Virginia longhunters who were on their way out
of
 the mountains to guide them in.

 Anyone know where I ought to be looking for such an incident? >>


Possibly the trappers Louis & Clark met on their return leg?  They wanted to
hire 2 "guides" but Coulter was the only one the Expedition could spare?  That
would have been about Aug 15, 1806 in the journals.  Maybe not what you're
looking for, but the only thing that rings a bell here.

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: RANDAL J BUBLITZ <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Longhunter/Mountain Man question
Date: 12 Mar 1999 16:56:02 -0800

Jim, Try the web page list archives, if it was posted at one time, it is
still there.  Manuel Lisa met John Colter coming out of the Mountains,
and Colter returned to guide him back up the river.  Is this the story
which you are remembering?    Hardtack



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Jackson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Order of the Beaver
Date: 12 Mar 1999 17:42:29 PST


Would like to know if any are members of the North American Order of the
Beaver?
MadJack


Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Order of the Beaver
Date: 12 Mar 1999 21:29:29 EST

Bill, Not sure if we're talking about the same organization, originally
founded in Montreal. If we are, then I'm not sure if I should answer that
question, <GGG> but, I believe that, despite my protests, I may have been
granted the honor (?) of being inducted into "The Club" last November; also
received my new moniker of 'Barney Fife' at that time.  Got my medallion and
am now awaiting my registration #, etc.

"FORTITUDE IN DISTRESS"            yhs, bARNEY fIFE



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ron and Gayle Harris" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ferguson rifle
Date: 12 Mar 1999 20:47:51 -0600

I hear ya roy!!!
It is or fine peice of work!!!
Fowls pretty bad as i recall.
Around the screws.

Commin to Commanche Peak in April???
tha "foot"
-----Original Message-----


>I can't answer the request, but have to say it really is an imposing
>piece.  First one I saw was at the 1987 SWRR that Gene High built from
>drawings he'd found somewhere.   I never shot it, but did spend a
>couple hours unscrewing and rescrewing (no lewd comments from T.A.B.
>members required, or wanted at this point) the breech/triggerguard
>mechanism.  Marvelous piece of work.  He only made the one rifle AIR,
>but folks around Dallas (ya listening Lightfoot?) can correct me if
>I'm wrong.  I've got a souvenier, souveneier, sooveneer,  keepsake
>photo of that SW with me in my BAR duds and that rifle.  Gotta get to
>Kings Mt next time I go back to visit my ma in the Smokies.
>
>
>On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:10:11 EST, you wrote:
>
>>I guess today is just my day for strange firearms questions, but the big
color
>>ad in the current issue of Muzzleloader has me wondering about the
Ferguson
>>rifle. Does anyone know if there were any examples of this weapon that
made it
>>into the fur trade, perhaps captured from the 71st Highlanders after their
>>defeat at Brandywine?
>>
>>Much obliged,
>>Jim
>>
>
>Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including
"BS".
>1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Bloomery
Date: 12 Mar 1999 23:52:31 -0800 (PST)

On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Pat Laughlin wrote:
> I have put up some pics of the bloomery from the Ken Weaver Hammerfest.

Curious Pat... how many pounds of Iron did ya'll extract per pound of
ore?  Per day?

Regards

Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho
NMLRA member 058863
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
Date: 13 Mar 1999 09:34:11 EST

HOT CAKES??  I thought this was  pre 1840.  Hot Cakes were the big new food of
the Worlds Fair.  Introduced in I think 1846.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bishnow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder charge wasRe: parched corn
Date: 13 Mar 1999 08:52:55 -0600

Barry Conner wrote:
>
> No problem, I always enjoy what you have to say. We all learn from each
> other and hopefully no-one gets burned.
>
> If everyone uses common sense and weights out what works for them, uses what
> can improve things for their use, everyone is further ahead and had some
> interesting reading too.
>
> Thanks Roger
>
> Buck
>
> PS
> Let's becareful with remarks like I just read about how much powder for a
> .58 cal gun. Have seen a few mishaps from new shooters, one lost an eye, the
> other has a useless right hand. Remember we all were green when starting on
> this trail.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 10:30 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
>
> >
> >
> >Barry Conner wrote:
> >
> >> d.
> >>
> >>    Yes Roger, blue parched corn is out of Mexico, sure there are several
> >> other corns native to the southwest, just so happens that the blue
> variety
> >> is what we can get in large quanities and is by far one of the more
> popular
> >> parched corns.
> >
> >Buck,
> >
> >Wasn't trying to work up a frackis over this, just adding what little I
> know to
> >the original short post. I  always appreciate the full story. Thanks for
> the
> >additional comemtary. I remain.....
> >
> >YMOS
> >Capt. Lahti'
> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
With my .62 I started with about 60 grains and worked my way up.
Many companies that make these firearms will recomend a maximum
charge for thier guns.A good starting point is the same number
of grains powder for the cal. of the gun. 58 cal I would start
58 grains that is 2ff rifle powder if you use 3fff you should
start with about half that. This is just the way I do,You have
to experiment for your self. But be careful breech plugs have
been known to blow out and touch hole liners also if you get
too wild.

Snakeshot



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bishnow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn or how to load a .58 tradegun
Date: 13 Mar 1999 08:58:33 -0600

Ratcliff wrote:
>
> I find that about 2 tablespoons full of finely powdered, heavily roasted parched corn works best in my tradegun under a cylindrical projectile drilled from one of my ex-wife's biscuits...they're just to hard to make 'em round.  No patch is needed, just a little lard on the biscuit to prevent damage to the bore.  Some of her cornbread, pounded to a suitable size, makes good birdshot if used with under and over wads whittled from her gravy.
> Lanney Ratcliff
> expert on the varied uses of parched corn and ex-wives
> Bill
> I hope you can take a joke.  Just funnin' you about the parched corn load.  However, if somebody doesn't change the subject line to "loads for .58 tradegun" pretty soon the humorless types that are lurking on the list will surely start bitching.
> I use a pretty mild load (about 65 grains of fff) under a patched .590 roundball in my .62 for casual target shooting.  I haven't worked up a hunting load yet.
> I would start with something lighter for you .58 and work up slowly until the accuracy and power of the load suits you.  Your gun will tell you what you need to know.
> YMOS
> Lanney
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Jackson <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 6:28 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: parched corn
>
> >Can I get some help on the proper powder charge for a 58 cal. North West
> >trade gun?
> >MadJack
> >
> >
> >
> >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> >
Lanny
  You must have been awful slim in those days.

Snakeshot



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bishnow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Snapsacks?
Date: 13 Mar 1999 09:03:56 -0600

Jody Carlson wrote:
>
> Members of the MtManList;
>
> Are any of you familiar with a carrying instrument called a 'snapsack'?  I
> am curious as to it's construction, appearance, and authenticity.  Perhaps
> a picture on someone website?
>
> Any information would be greatly appreciated.  In advance I thank you, and
> rest assured I remain,...
>
> YMHOS,


Knapsack??



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bishnow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: greenhorn joins up
Date: 13 Mar 1999 09:37:31 -0600

Brian McNutt wrote:
>
> Howdy
> Just joined the list, and wanted to say hi. My name is Brian, from
> Weatherford, TX. I was lucky enough to get to Friendship once, and ready to
> go back. All I own in the way of buckskinning is the first four books, and a
> TC Hawkins 50.
> Anyone from Texas please drop me a line; I'd like to know what (if anything)
> is a'happening in the BIG state.
> Thanks!
> Brian


Brian,
  Watch these fellers they are trying to lure you in to a habit
that you won't want to break. You will spend most of your money
and all your spare time and you still can't get enough.
I know cause I been knowing these guys for a number of years.
and I just ain't got enough spare time.
  Really, anything we can do to help let us know. There is more
than a few of us around.

Snakeshot
China Spring, Texas



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: greenhorn joins up
Date: 13 Mar 1999 11:08:23 -0500

*chuckles*... It's not just "these guys"... it's the WHOLE Ronnyvous thing!
They need to find someplace to put a disclaimer like... "The General has
determined that Ronnyvousing is highly addicting and may cause your bank
account to suffer greatly!!"  I have been doing this only for 8 years (I was
a slow starter)... and now need a 12x6 trailer to haul all my "stuff".  I
have several diferent outfits in the the trailer so not all of it gets used
at once, but easily have dumped well over $5K into all of it... thats
including the materials for what I have made.  But... I'd do it all again in
a heart beat.... It's the greatest experiences I have ever had...

RONNYVOUS  http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/3216

Addison Miller

-----Original Message-----


>Brian McNutt wrote:
>>
>> Howdy
>> Just joined the list, and wanted to say hi. My name is Brian, from
>> Weatherford, TX. I was lucky enough to get to Friendship once, and ready
to
>> go back. All I own in the way of buckskinning is the first four books,
and a
>> TC Hawkins 50.
>> Anyone from Texas please drop me a line; I'd like to know what (if
anything)
>> is a'happening in the BIG state.
>> Thanks!
>> Brian
>
>
>Brian,
>  Watch these fellers they are trying to lure you in to a habit
>that you won't want to break. You will spend most of your money
>and all your spare time and you still can't get enough.
>I know cause I been knowing these guys for a number of years.
>and I just ain't got enough spare time.
>  Really, anything we can do to help let us know. There is more
>than a few of us around.
>
>Snakeshot
>China Spring, Texas
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Laurel huber <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: greenhorn joins up
Date: 13 Mar 1999 09:50:33 -0800

    After about thirty years in this "hobby" I've finally got my gear together.
I find that I can stroll down Trader's Row without finding anything I need.  Of
course, I can still find stuff that I WANT, but the pressing NEED is gone.  This
occurs when you stop bringing women along.  Without them, you don't bring the
tipi or the large tent with the 11 foot awning out front.  The folding table and
bench set stays in the garage.  The cooking set-up with the cast iron kettles
and fire irons for elaborate dutch oven meals are all in the past. And the
duffle bag full of changes of clothing to be clean or look elegant or "cool" in
photographs is left behind.  Instead, you can carry all you need for a weekend
stay on your back.  Your favorite rifle or musket with shooting bag and horn, a
couple of blankets, a tarp for rain, a haversack or backpack with possibles
including a boiler, bowl or folding skillet.  That's the gear, along with the
clothes on your back, a change of socks and a wool shirt.  Food? Oh, yeah.  An
extra haversack with a little bacon to grease your potatoes and onions.  Or
maybe a couple fistfuls of Irish oatmeal or cornmeal.  Dried fruit, nuts and
berries(trail mix), some jerky.  I like to bring in some fresh meat for the
first night(frozen) and find that beans and rice are very nice.  On Henry's Fork
of the Green I packed in some dried beans and with some contributions of bacon,
onions etc. it made a passable meal for three of us.  That smoke pole could
produce edible game in season or the snare kits you packed in.  It wouldn't hurt
to unroll that silk fishing line and try your luck in the local stream.  Hell,
we could all eat a little lighter for a couple of days. I have yet to go on ANY
outing with the AMM where I didn't pack in too damn much food.  In Arizona last
year, Two Bears forced people at gunpoint to stop and eat up all the food he
brought in!
     Having said all that, I dearly loves the womens.  The running gag at local
rendezvous is that Larry packs in a small town for all the ladies he invites.
Gotta make 'em comfortable so they think that those stinky, furry guys might
have more intelligence than they usually exhibit.  Takes me 10 minutes to set up
camp for myself.  Takes over an hour(with help) to set up camp for the ladies
and provides a great deal of amusement for the audience that stops by to watch.
    I have it all now but would love to be starting out new all over again!  A
lotta laughs ahead, Brian.

"Shoots-the-Prairie" Larry Huber

sean wrote:

> *chuckles*... It's not just "these guys"... it's the WHOLE Ronnyvous thing!
> They need to find someplace to put a disclaimer like... "The General has
> determined that Ronnyvousing is highly addicting and may cause your bank
> account to suffer greatly!!"  I have been doing this only for 8 years (I was
> a slow starter)... and now need a 12x6 trailer to haul all my "stuff".  I
> have several diferent outfits in the the trailer so not all of it gets used
> at once, but easily have dumped well over $5K into all of it... thats
> including the materials for what I have made.  But... I'd do it all again in
> a heart beat.... It's the greatest experiences I have ever had...
>
> RONNYVOUS  http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/3216
>
> Addison Miller
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bishnow <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Saturday, March 13, 1999 10:36 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: greenhorn joins up
>
> >Brian McNutt wrote:
> >>
> >> Howdy
> >> Just joined the list, and wanted to say hi. My name is Brian, from
> >> Weatherford, TX. I was lucky enough to get to Friendship once, and ready
> to
> >> go back. All I own in the way of buckskinning is the first four books,
> and a
> >> TC Hawkins 50.
> >> Anyone from Texas please drop me a line; I'd like to know what (if
> anything)
> >> is a'happening in the BIG state.
> >> Thanks!
> >> Brian
> >
> >
> >Brian,
> >  Watch these fellers they are trying to lure you in to a habit
> >that you won't want to break. You will spend most of your money
> >and all your spare time and you still can't get enough.
> >I know cause I been knowing these guys for a number of years.
> >and I just ain't got enough spare time.
> >  Really, anything we can do to help let us know. There is more
> >than a few of us around.
> >
> >Snakeshot
> >China Spring, Texas
> >
> >






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Laurel huber <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: greenhorn joins up
Date: 13 Mar 1999 10:02:21 -0800



sean wrote:

> *chuckles*... It's not just "these guys"... it's the WHOLE Ronnyvous thing!
> They need to find someplace to put a disclaimer like... "The General has
> determined that Ronnyvousing is highly addicting and may cause your bank
> account to suffer greatly!!"  I have been doing this only for 8 years (I was
> a slow starter)... and now need a 12x6 trailer to haul all my "stuff".  I
> have several diferent outfits in the the trailer so not all of it gets used
> at once, but easily have dumped well over $5K into all of it... thats
> including the materials for what I have made.  But... I'd do it all again in
> a heart beat.... It's the greatest experiences I have ever had...
>
> RONNYVOUS  http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/3216
>
> Addison Miller
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bishnow <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Saturday, March 13, 1999 10:36 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: greenhorn joins up
>
> >Brian McNutt wrote:
> >>
> >> Howdy
> >> Just joined the list, and wanted to say hi. My name is Brian, from
> >> Weatherford, TX. I was lucky enough to get to Friendship once, and ready
> to
> >> go back. All I own in the way of buckskinning is the first four books,
> and a
> >> TC Hawkins 50.
> >> Anyone from Texas please drop me a line; I'd like to know what (if
> anything)
> >> is a'happening in the BIG state.
> >> Thanks!
> >> Brian
> >
> >
> >Brian,
> >  Watch these fellers they are trying to lure you in to a habit
> >that you won't want to break. You will spend most of your money
> >and all your spare time and you still can't get enough.
> >I know cause I been knowing these guys for a number of years.
> >and I just ain't got enough spare time.
> >  Really, anything we can do to help let us know. There is more
> >than a few of us around.
> >
> >Snakeshot
> >China Spring, Texas
> >
> >






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: tradegun loads
Date: 13 Mar 1999 11:50:24 -0600




>
>
> > Can I get some help on the proper powder charge for a 58 cal. North West
> > trade gun?
> > MadJack
>

For patched ball, use the same load you might use in a rifle of the same caliber,
50-70 gr FFG for starters.  You will need to try different ball diameters to get
the
most accurate load.

The old idea of using equal volumes of powder, wad and shot came from percussion
shotguns and doesn't necessarily work all that well in flint guns. The rule of
thumb for
the most consistent shot loads in flint guns is a single .135, or .200 card over
powder
wad and 1 and 1/2 by volume of shot to powder. That's right 1 1/2 times more shot
to
powder, and I top my load off with about a 3/32 " slice of felt filler wad that
holds the
shot in place no matter how much you tramp up and down the hills and hollers on
those
hunting trips.

Those thin cereal box over shot wads tend to shift and allow the shot to spill out
onto
the ground when hunting rough terrain, while the slice of filler wad stays in place
and
breaks up on firing to insure good patterns.         J.D.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "McKee" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: greenhorn joins up
Date: 13 Mar 1999 15:41:03 -0600

Words of wisdom........well said.... (you think two bears packs food, what
about roadkill!?)       Long John
-----Original Message-----


>    After about thirty years in this "hobby" I've finally got my gear
together.
>I find that I can stroll down Trader's Row without finding anything I need.
Of
>course, I can still find stuff that I WANT, but the pressing NEED is gone.
This
>occurs when you stop bringing women along.  Without them, you don't bring
the
>tipi or the large tent with the 11 foot awning out front.  The folding
table and
>bench set stays in the garage.  The cooking set-up with the cast iron
kettles
>and fire irons for elaborate dutch oven meals are all in the past. And the
>duffle bag full of changes of clothing to be clean or look elegant or
"cool" in
>photographs is left behind.  Instead, you can carry all you need for a
weekend
>stay on your back.  Your favorite rifle or musket with shooting bag and
horn, a
>couple of blankets, a tarp for rain, a haversack or backpack with possibles
>including a boiler, bowl or folding skillet.  That's the gear, along with
the
>clothes on your back, a change of socks and a wool shirt.  Food? Oh, yeah.
An
>extra haversack with a little bacon to grease your potatoes and onions.  Or
>maybe a couple fistfuls of Irish oatmeal or cornmeal.  Dried fruit, nuts
and
>berries(trail mix), some jerky.  I like to bring in some fresh meat for the
>first night(frozen) and find that beans and rice are very nice.  On Henry's
Fork
>of the Green I packed in some dried beans and with some contributions of
bacon,
>onions etc. it made a passable meal for three of us.  That smoke pole could
>produce edible game in season or the snare kits you packed in.  It wouldn't
hurt
>to unroll that silk fishing line and try your luck in the local stream.
Hell,
>we could all eat a little lighter for a couple of days. I have yet to go on
ANY
>outing with the AMM where I didn't pack in too damn much food.  In Arizona
last
>year, Two Bears forced people at gunpoint to stop and eat up all the food
he
>brought in!
>     Having said all that, I dearly loves the womens.  The running gag at
local
>rendezvous is that Larry packs in a small town for all the ladies he
invites.
>Gotta make 'em comfortable so they think that those stinky, furry guys
might
>have more intelligence than they usually exhibit.  Takes me 10 minutes to
set up
>camp for myself.  Takes over an hour(with help) to set up camp for the
ladies
>and provides a great deal of amusement for the audience that stops by to
watch.
>    I have it all now but would love to be starting out new all over again!
A
>lotta laughs ahead, Brian.
>
>"Shoots-the-Prairie" Larry Huber
>
>sean wrote:
>
>> *chuckles*... It's not just "these guys"... it's the WHOLE Ronnyvous
thing!
>> They need to find someplace to put a disclaimer like... "The General has
>> determined that Ronnyvousing is highly addicting and may cause your bank
>> account to suffer greatly!!"  I have been doing this only for 8 years (I
was
>> a slow starter)... and now need a 12x6 trailer to haul all my "stuff".  I
>> have several diferent outfits in the the trailer so not all of it gets
used
>> at once, but easily have dumped well over $5K into all of it... thats
>> including the materials for what I have made.  But... I'd do it all again
in
>> a heart beat.... It's the greatest experiences I have ever had...
>>
>> RONNYVOUS  http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/3216
>>
>> Addison Miller
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bishnow <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> Date: Saturday, March 13, 1999 10:36 AM
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: greenhorn joins up
>>
>> >Brian McNutt wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Howdy
>> >> Just joined the list, and wanted to say hi. My name is Brian, from
>> >> Weatherford, TX. I was lucky enough to get to Friendship once, and
ready
>> to
>> >> go back. All I own in the way of buckskinning is the first four books,
>> and a
>> >> TC Hawkins 50.
>> >> Anyone from Texas please drop me a line; I'd like to know what (if
>> anything)
>> >> is a'happening in the BIG state.
>> >> Thanks!
>> >> Brian
>> >
>> >
>> >Brian,
>> >  Watch these fellers they are trying to lure you in to a habit
>> >that you won't want to break. You will spend most of your money
>> >and all your spare time and you still can't get enough.
>> >I know cause I been knowing these guys for a number of years.
>> >and I just ain't got enough spare time.
>> >  Really, anything we can do to help let us know. There is more
>> >than a few of us around.
>> >
>> >Snakeshot
>> >China Spring, Texas
>> >
>> >
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Roy Parker)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: greenhorn joins up
Date: 13 Mar 1999 23:43:44 GMT

Brian, for what's happenin' in Texas, check out Ron Obenhaus' or
Wooden Hawk's sites.  http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus or
http://members.aol.com/woodenhawk/tradingco.html .  The 1999 SWRR is
near Ft. Smith Arkansas, but returns to Texas in 2000.  Usually at
least one rendezvous in the state on any given weekend Sept through
May.


On Sat, 13 Mar 1999 09:37:31 -0600, Snakeshot wrote:

>Brian McNutt wrote:
>>=20
>> Howdy
>> Just joined the list, and wanted to say hi. My name is Brian, from
>> Weatherford, TX. I was lucky enough to get to Friendship once, and =
ready to
>> go back.=20
>> Anyone from Texas please drop me a line; I'd like to know what (if =
anything)
>> is a'happening in the BIG state.
>> Thanks!
>> Brian
>
>
>Brian,
>  Watch these fellers they are trying to lure you in to a habit=20
>that you won't want to break. You will spend most of your money
>and all your spare time and you still can't get enough.
>I know cause I been knowing these guys for a number of years.
>and I just ain't got enough spare time.
>  Really, anything we can do to help let us know. There is more
>than a few of us around.
>
>Snakeshot
>China Spring, Texas
>

Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including =
"BS".
1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Order of the Beaver
Date: 13 Mar 1999 19:34:43 EST

What is the Order of the Beaver?



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Laughlin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Bloomery
Date: 13 Mar 1999 18:31:09 -0800

Lee,  it is really hard to tell how much was actually gotten out of the ore.
Have about 1/2 of a five gallon bucket.  It is a one day thing as the
bloomery has to be broken up to get to the metal.  We are working on a
permanent one with a run from it but it will be a bit be4 we attempt it.
This was done as a demo at the Hammerfest and we think it was a great
success.  Our site was owned by a mountain man, Jim Waters when he retired,
Our events usually have mountain men and others of the 1840 period.

Lee Newbill wrote:

> On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Pat Laughlin wrote:
> > I have put up some pics of the bloomery from the Ken Weaver Hammerfest.
>
> Curious Pat... how many pounds of Iron did ya'll extract per pound of
> ore?  Per day?
>
> Regards
>
> Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho
> NMLRA member 058863
> email at [e-mail]
> Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
> http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: prices of goods in st.louis around 1800
Date: 14 Mar 1999 00:09:57 EST

doing a paper on what it was like in st.louis around the early 1800. I'm still
looking
for account books from general stores,blacksmiths,bill of lading from
keelboats and est,I have some but others also would be helpful.timewise would
be from 1785to 1820.anyone every hear of a town in missouri called New Diggers
in 1813.Also anyone every hear of fort clark in kaskaskia ill.year would be
1779.I got what is on the amm list already.


                                     thank you
                                  rick petzoldt

[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Hudson's Bay Company Digital Collection
Date: 14 Mar 1999 02:17:55 EST

 Found this and thought it would be of great interest to most on the list.
Great referrence material here, with pictures, descriptions, etc.
<A HREF="http://www.schoolnet.ca/collections/hbc/hbcen.htm">Click here: MMMN,
Hudson's Bay Company Digital Collection - Home</A>  yhs, Barney Fife



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: prices of goods in st.louis around 1800
Date: 14 Mar 1999 02:54:49 EST

In a message dated 99-03-14 00:15:53 EST, you write:

<< anyone every hear of a town in missouri called New Diggers
 in 1813. >>

Check the list archives about a year ago -- seems we had a lot of questions
from an archeologist concerning a dig on a trading fort in progress in
Missouri -- & that name rings a bell for some reason.  Anyone else remember
more about this?

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Hudson's Bay Company Digital Collection
Date: 14 Mar 1999 07:43:15 -0600

I had to remove the quote marks from the original to get this to open =
with a click.  I am forwarding the address in a "clickable" condition. =
The site is well worth visiting.
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----



-----Original Message-----


> Found this and thought it would be of great interest to most on the =
list.
>Great referrence material here, with pictures, descriptions, etc. =20
><A HREF http://www.schoolnet.ca/collections/hbc/hbcen.htm   Click here: =
MMMN,
>Hudson's Bay Company Digital Collection - Home</A>  yhs, Barney Fife
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin ware
Date: 14 Mar 1999 09:33:28 EST

     This list has told us how to take care of our castiron so it won't rust
while we're out, but how about Tin ware.   How do you keep it from becoming a
heap of rust?



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "McKee" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin ware
Date: 14 Mar 1999 09:11:10 -0600

The thing that works for me is to completely dry it after use and to keep it
dry when not in use.  A light coating of food oil or grease will help the
outside from rusting (inside too if it's not a drinking vessel).
    YMOS    Long John
-----Original Message-----


>     This list has told us how to take care of our castiron so it won't
rust
>while we're out, but how about Tin ware.   How do you keep it from becoming
a
>heap of rust?
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Order of the Beaver
Date: 14 Mar 1999 08:46:15 -0700

Do you mean the Beaver Club/La Societe des Castors, originally established
in Montreal in 1785? If so, it was revived around 1975, as a high-class
social club based in Winnipeg (I think). (Along the lines of the Canadian
Club--sorry, don't know of any equivalent U.S. clubs.)

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Order of the Beaver
Date: 14 Mar 1999 11:58:15 EST

angela

I have a silver madallion with a beaver on it and a couple of cartuses
which are not very clear---the madallion has a rim on one side and
appears to be a open face mold ---size is about 1 1/2 wide and 2 1/4 long
with a hole at the top---found it in rexdale canida in a junk shop in
about 1960 along with a bunch of early canadian coins---early 1800 to
1850---most are half pennies and big pennies---is that madallion a part
of the "order of the beaver"

"HAWK"
Michael pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor Florida  34684
E-mail:   [e-mail]

On Sun, 14 Mar 1999 08:46:15 -0700 [e-mail] (Angela
Gottfred) writes:
>Do you mean the Beaver Club/La Societe des Castors, originally
>established
>in Montreal in 1785? If so, it was revived around 1975, as a
>high-class
>social club based in Winnipeg (I think). (Along the lines of the
>Canadian
>Club--sorry, don't know of any equivalent U.S. clubs.)
>
>Your humble & obedient servant,
>Angela Gottfred
>[e-mail]
>
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:purple hudson bay blankets
Date: 14 Mar 1999 11:58:15 EST

anyone out there have information about "purple" hudson bay blankets--in
a heated discusson about them but have no documentation for support---I
have 2 of them both 6 point---have never seen any others ---got them from
my aunt marie in vancover back in about 1962--she special ordered them
from the bay company---was a large stockholder and had to push a bunch of
buttons to get them for me.  told me they were not allowed to be ordered
in the us at that time for some reason--she got them across the border
and gave them to me for xmas that year---she had them on order for over
18 months before she got them---been told by a bunch of people that there
is no such thing as "purple" hudson bay blankets " but I have 2 of them".

angela or cpt  can you give me any input---

"HAWK"
Michael pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor Florida  34684
E-mail:   [e-mail]


___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:purple hudson bay blankets
Date: 14 Mar 1999 10:06:27 -0700

Have read somewhere that HBC made some odd colored blankets right after
World II, do to shortages in some dyes, HBC had a large number of them for
local sale. Will try and find that information, can't remember the colors,
but "purple" doesn't ring a bell.  Wonder if they were dyed that color
later, have seen some that have had their color changed because the original
color looked dirty, even when cleaned, usually the strips look odd and is a
tip off to something not right.

Buck
__________
-----Original Message-----


>anyone out there have information about "purple" hudson bay blankets--in
>a heated discusson about them but have no documentation for support---I
>have 2 of them both 6 point---have never seen any others ---got them from
>my aunt marie in vancover back in about 1962--she special ordered them
>from the bay company---was a large stockholder and had to push a bunch of
>buttons to get them for me.  told me they were not allowed to be ordered
>in the us at that time for some reason--she got them across the border
>and gave them to me for xmas that year---she had them on order for over
>18 months before she got them---been told by a bunch of people that there
>is no such thing as "purple" hudson bay blankets " but I have 2 of them".
>
>angela or cpt  can you give me any input---
>
>"HAWK"
>Michael pierce
>854 Glenfield Dr.
>Palm Harbor Florida  34684
>E-mail:   [e-mail]
>
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Order of the Beaver
Date: 14 Mar 1999 13:48:41 EST

Sounds like a Hudson Bay Company token.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "The Brooks" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Tinware
Date: 14 Mar 1999 19:30:20 +1300


Morning all,
While on the subject, how do you drink out of a tin cup without it burning
your lips off as the tin transfers the heat something wicked? Is there some
secret to it or do you just have to wait for your tea or coffee to cool down
which is the technique that I use at present. I had thought of putting a
band aid at the drinking point. Any comments?
Kia Ora
Big Bear
In  Sun Rising overcast Marlborough New Zealand.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tinware
Date: 14 Mar 1999 14:43:15 -0500

Callused lips...

D

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


>
>Morning all,
>While on the subject, how do you drink out of a tin cup without it burning
>your lips off as the tin transfers the heat something wicked? Is there some
>secret to it or do you just have to wait for your tea or coffee to cool
down
>which is the technique that I use at present. I had thought of putting a
>band aid at the drinking point. Any comments?
>Kia Ora
>Big Bear
>In  Sun Rising overcast Marlborough New Zealand.
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Order of the Beaver
Date: 14 Mar 1999 15:52:54 EST

Lanney, Thanks for cleaning up that link.  Hawk, The Order Of The Beaver
medallion has a beaver eating a tree on one side, and a group in a canoe about
to go 'over the falls' on the other.  It also has the slogan "fortitude in
distress" on it, and says Instituted 1728, Montreal. Sounds like what you have
is a HBC medallion.  Check out the Hudsons Bay Digital Collection link. it has
a picture of George Simpsons Beaver Club medallion from 1820.
<A HREF="http://www.schoolnet.ca/collections/hbc/hbcen.htm">MMMN, Hudson's Bay
Company Digital Collection - Home</A>   The originals were made of yellow
gold, and had to be paid for by the member being inducted.

As I feared, due to an act of extreme foolishness, necessitating "fortitude in
distress"  I was inducted into the "club" last November, and its my
understanding that Smoke & Fire News is handling the registration, logs, etc.
I also heard that it's now being called The North American Beaver Club. When I
get my papers and numbered medallion, I'll let the list know the details.  The
stories of how some of the members earned their rights are both hilarious and
in some cases (like mine) downright scary.    Hope this info helps.   YHS,
Barney Fife



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tinware
Date: 14 Mar 1999 15:55:25 EST

seems the band-aid would be better off attached to your lips <GGG>
yhs, Barn.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tinware
Date: 14 Mar 1999 16:25:20 EST

In a message dated 99-03-14 14:18:41 EST, you write:

<< While on the subject, how do you drink out of a tin cup without it burning
 your lips off as the tin transfers the heat something wicked? Is there some
 secret to it  >>

Yes, there is a trick.  Lick the rim with your tongue.  The saliva transfered
will cool the rim just enough it won't burn.

 For tin pot care --- ALWAYS use a wooden or horn spoon when stirring whatever
it is your're cooking so you don't scratch the tin.  If stuff sticks or burns
in your pot, boil it out with clear water -- this usualy works.  'Course you
don't want to stir hot stuff with a horn spoon for very long or it'll loose
it's shape.  I've heard of seasoning tinware like cast & sheet steel cookware,
but haven't tried it.  While you can use sand to clean out cast iron, don't do
it with a tinned utensil -- it'll remove the tin.  The thin layer of tin is
all that prevents a tin pot, cup, plate or whatever you're using from rusting,
so never subject it to anything abrasive or metal that's harder than it is --
which is just about any metal.  If you notice a small scratch & have the
ability & materials, remove the rust with hydrochloric acid based soldering
flux, & re-tin.  THUROUGHLY wash the repaired item with LOTS of water & mild
detergent to remove ALL traces of the flux.  Someone mentioned lightly oiling
tin items -- this works but use olive oil so it doesn't go rancid, but the
best rust prevention is taking care of the tin coating.

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Longhunter/Mountain Man question
Date: 14 Mar 1999 17:37:26 -0800



[e-mail] wrote:

> Hello the list!
>
> Back when I was on the list about a year ago (before I accidentally kilt my
> computer) someone mentioned that they had run across a source whereas a party
> in the early fur trade era was heading into the mountains. They needed guides,
> and they wound up hiring two Virginia longhunters who were on their way out of
> the mountains to guide them in.
>
> Anyone know where I ought to be looking for such an incident?
>
> Thanks,
> Jim

Jim,

May have been me. Being a member of the Wilson Price Hunt  Party-AMM. Our name
sake was the gentleman that hired these two hunters/longhunters on his way to the
mouth of the Columbia in about 1811. You will find the story in "Astoria" by
Washington Irving. Irving wrote the history of the Astoria venture for John J
Astor some time after the ill-fated venture had failed. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tinware
Date: 14 Mar 1999 20:43:31 -0500

The tin cup that I use has a "rolled" lip on it.... allows air to semi
circulate under it and keeps me from burning my lips when I drink hot
coffee.  The "cheaper" ones have no rolled lip, and I burned hell outta my
lips first time I used it.   Check some of the web sites... I have several
links on mine to various vendors, ets... and they may have what you want.
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/3216

Addison Miller

-----Original Message-----


>
>Morning all,
>While on the subject, how do you drink out of a tin cup without it burning
>your lips off as the tin transfers the heat something wicked? Is there some
>secret to it or do you just have to wait for your tea or coffee to cool
down
>which is the technique that I use at present. I had thought of putting a
>band aid at the drinking point. Any comments?
>Kia Ora
>Big Bear
>In  Sun Rising overcast Marlborough New Zealand.
>
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tinware
Date: 14 Mar 1999 18:42:04 -0800



The Brooks wrote:

> Morning all,
> While on the subject, how do you drink out of a tin cup without it burning
> your lips off as the tin transfers the heat something wicked?

Big Bear,

You don't. Either 'cowboy up' as they say in Texas or make your tin cup out of
cow horn. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Order of the Beaver
Date: 15 Mar 1999 09:30:53 EST

thats what i thought it was also when i bought it.---

"HAWK"
Michael pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor Florida  34684
E-mail:   [e-mail]

On Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:48:41 EST [e-mail] writes:
>Sounds like a Hudson Bay Company token.
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Sam Keller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: greenhorn joins up
Date: 15 Mar 1999 06:58:30 -0800 (PST)

Welcome to the list. From Cleburne myself. Would like to invite you to
Commanche Peak Muzzleloaders Spring Doings. Coming up on April  9-11,
1999.

Sleeping Bear




---Bishnow <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> Brian McNutt wrote:
> >
> > Howdy
> > Just joined the list, and wanted to say hi. My name is Brian, from
> > Weatherford, TX. I was lucky enough to get to Friendship once, and
ready to
> > go back. All I own in the way of buckskinning is the first four
books, and a
> > TC Hawkins 50.
> > Anyone from Texas please drop me a line; I'd like to know what (if
anything)
> > is a'happening in the BIG state.
> > Thanks!
> > Brian
>
>
> Brian,
>   Watch these fellers they are trying to lure you in to a habit
> that you won't want to break. You will spend most of your money
> and all your spare time and you still can't get enough.
> I know cause I been knowing these guys for a number of years.
> and I just ain't got enough spare time.
>   Really, anything we can do to help let us know. There is more
> than a few of us around.
>
> Snakeshot
> China Spring, Texas
>
>

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Jackson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Order of the Beaver
Date: 15 Mar 1999 07:00:55 PST

List members. no the Order of the Beaver has nothing to do with the
Hudson Bay Company, sorry for my delay is responding. It is a Masonic
Buckskinning degree.
MadJack


>From: [e-mail]
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Order of the Beaver
>Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:30:53 EST
>
>thats what i thought it was also when i bought it.---
>
>"HAWK"
>Michael pierce
>854 Glenfield Dr.
>Palm Harbor Florida  34684
>E-mail:   [e-mail]
>
>On Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:48:41 EST [e-mail] writes:
>>Sounds like a Hudson Bay Company token.
>>
>>
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at
http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: HBC colored blankets
Date: 15 Mar 1999 08:57:23 +0100

Re:  Purple HBC blankets, I too have seen them.  By that I
mean purple blankets with a dark stripe at each end, point
marks, and the HBC label sewn on.  Blankets sold under the
HBC label in the 20th century have come in a variety of
colors, some of which have not lasted too long. A light
brown comes to mind.  At a rendezvous in Whoming in the
early 70s a trader had bright hunters orange HBC-brand
blankets and a sales pitch that they made great capotes to
hunt in.  According to him, "all the guys up in Montana are
using them."  I'd never seen one up here before or since.
Fairly strange looking items, they were.
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    "John Hunt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tinware
Date: 15 Mar 1999 12:28:26 -0800

There are only three ways to drink from a hot tin cup.

1st. way, take a slurping drink and say, damn thats hot!!!!!

2nd. way, let it cool some.

3rd.. way, drink from another drinking vessel.



John (BIG JOHN) Hunt
Longhunter
Mountainman
southwest  Ohio
-----Original Message-----


seems the band-aid would be better off attached to your lips <GGG>
yhs, Barn.





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tinware
Date: 15 Mar 1999 12:54:25 -0700

I have wrapped rawhide around my cups, stitch it with sinew,
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tinware
Date: 15 Mar 1999 11:59:30 -0800 (PST)

Another question on Tinware, the bottom seam of my 20 year old drinking
cup is now "seeping".  How does one fix that using period materials?

Regards

Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho
NMLRA member 058863
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #254
Date: 15 Mar 1999 14:17:01 -0600


>Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:15:24 -0600
>From: "Brian McNutt" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: MtMan-List: greenhorn joins up
>
>Howdy
>Just joined the list, and wanted to say hi. [blah, blah, blah]
>Thanks!
>Brian


Brian,

If you want to learn a bit more about the Rocky Mtn Fur trade era, tune in
the History Channel (if you have cable) on Saturday night March 20, at 7:00
Central time for a 2 hour special on the Mountain Men.  A few of us, myself
included, are in it.  AMM listserv pals Dean Rudy and "Teton" Todd Glover
were involved, too.

The producers used Fred Gowans, Bob Utley, and Myself as talking heads,
while several of our Rondy colleagues appear in living history demo scenes
filmed in the Pinedale, Wyoming area.  Utley was interviewed in his house,
then we drove to Jourdan-Bachman Pioneer Farm for a rustic location to
shoot me (and hide the body, ha-ha).  I was filmed doing some fur trade era
material culture show and tell, using my own stuff.  I flew to Austin with
two duffel bags full of stuff.  I'm looking forward to seeing what they cut
out.

I hope everyone enjoys the show.  Blame the producers for all the mistakes.
:-)

If you're ever out Lubbock way, stop by.  I can share years of fur trade
era (among other periods) living history experience with you.  I was in the
Civil War reenactment at Weatherford last October.  Give me a call if
you're ever out this way.

Cheers,
HBC

****************************************
Henry B. Crawford    Box 43191
Curator of History    Museum of Texas Tech University
[e-mail]    Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
806/742-2442     FAX [phone]
              Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because It's There  ******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tinware
Date: 15 Mar 1999 12:17:39 -0800



Lee Newbill wrote:

> Another question on Tinware, the bottom seam of my 20 year old drinking
> cup is now "seeping".  How does one fix that using period materials?

Lee,

Enjoyed seeing you at the Gun Show. Wish you had brought this up over there
and I would have liked to see your cup to see what you are working with. It
may be possible to "tighten it up" with some judicious plyer work but I
suspect you will have to do some careful soldering. Big problem with
resoldering is getting the metal clean enough to take the solder and NOT
getting the rest of the vessel so hot that the other seams come apart.

If you have a rust spot that is leaking, you may be in big trouble cause it
will be hard to get at the rust to clean it all. If the seams on your cup
are not double crimped like that copper pot you got from me you will have a
hell of a time keeping them from falling apart when you apply the heat to
fix that leaky spot.

With no rust and a well crimped cup, wash the inside  with liquid flux.
Don't use very much, just enough to get the metal clean. Use silver bearing
lead free solder and a very directional heat source to direct the heat
right at the area you need to repair. (you might set the  pot on a sheet of
thick steel and heat the steel so you aren't using direct flame). Make a
small swab of course steel wool on stiff wire to swab the solder into the
bottom joint and spread it around so it doesn't build up too thick. Put
some flux on the swabs  so it will hold a bit of solder.

Heat cup at repair site carefully and slowly. Test often to see when solder
will flow. Create a small puddle of solder at site that is showing that it
has adhered to the metal and not just beading up. Swish it around the area
of the repair. Pour and wipe out excess with steel wool. That should do it.
Let me know if you have any questions or problems. I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Paul Mueller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: HBC colored blankets
Date: 15 Mar 1999 15:23:48 -0500

 The so called purple HBC blankets are what they used to call plum. Purple
point blankets were made only for the royal family as it is the royal family
color. the plum blankets were stopped being made in the 70'S as for the
orange point blankets i have never seen any and i have asked witney about
makeing them and their reply was orange is the kings color.
-----Original Message-----


>Re:  Purple HBC blankets, I too have seen them.  By that I
>mean purple blankets with a dark stripe at each end, point
>marks, and the HBC label sewn on.  Blankets sold under the
>HBC label in the 20th century have come in a variety of
>colors, some of which have not lasted too long. A light
>brown comes to mind.  At a rendezvous in Whoming in the
>early 70s a trader had bright hunters orange HBC-brand
>blankets and a sales pitch that they made great capotes to
>hunt in.  According to him, "all the guys up in Montana are
>using them."  I'd never seen one up here before or since.
>Fairly strange looking items, they were.
>Allen Chronister
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: More on War of 1812 Symposium
Date: 15 Mar 1999 22:00:46 EST

War of 1812 Symposium
March 28-29, 1999
General Daniel Bissell House
10225 Bellefontaine Road
St. Louis, MO  63137
(314)  868-0973

FREE!!

Schedule:

Saturday:

9AM--The Detroit Campaign,  by Thomas G. Shaw,  Minnesota Historical
Society and assistant site director of Historic Fort Snelling.  Thomas,  his
wife and son, reside in Minneapolis, MN
.

10AM--Women Captives of the Fort Dearborn Massacre,  by Sally E.
Bennett, author and MA & MFA candidate.  Sally has researched Fort
Dearborn for over 15 years.   She resides in Collinsville, Illinois with her
family.

11AM--Ambush at Loutre Creek:   The Death of Captain James Callaway,
Missouri Ranger,  by Michael D. Harris.    A history teacher and an expert
on War of 1812 forts in Missouri,  Mike,  his wife and three daughters
reside in Rolla, Missouri.

1:30PM--Artillery in the War of 1812,  by Paul R. Rosewitz, Captain  U.S.
Army.   An assistant Professor of Military Science at Kemper Military School
and Junior College,  Paul, his wife and three daughters reside in Bonnville,
Missouri.

2:30PM--Military River Boats on the Missouri,  Illinois, and Mississippi
Rivers,
by Ronald ABrunnert,  past president of teh Fort Belle Fontaine Historical
Society.   Ron and his wife resides in St. Charles, Missouri.

3:30PM--Fort Russell,  Illinois Territory,  by Carl Lossau, a retired
professor
from Southern Illinois University at Edwardsville.    Carl and his wife
resides
in Edwardsville, Illinois.

Sunday:

9AM--Blood Sport:  Cock Fighting, by Tony Gerard, a teacher at a Junior
College, Tony has spent many years researching historic breeds of
chickens.  Tony resides in Vienna, Illinois.

10AM--A Stand of Arms,  by Thomas Verdot.   A violin maker and a gun
smith for many years,  Tom resides in Jefferson City, Missouri.

11AM--The United States Dragoons in the War of 1812,  by Stephen J. Allie,
Director of the Frontier Army Museum, Fort Leavenworth, Kansas.


Hope this helps.    If you have any other questions,  feel free to call me
at (314)  349-0855.

Rick



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:purple hudson bay blankets
Date: 15 Mar 1999 20:22:22 -0700

From _Blackfeet: Artists of the Northern Plains_, by Bob Scriver (Lowell
Press, Kansas City, 1990; ISBN 0-932845-38-X), p. 167:

"The purple blanket on the left was a present from my good friend, Many
Victories Woman, Mae Williamson. She was the official interpreter for the
[Blackfeet] tribe and was given this rare royal purple four-point blanket in
honour of the Queen's coronation."

Only a small bit of the blanket is shown; it's purple, all right. The
coronation was in 1958 or 1959, which fits fairly well with your timeline.
The bar is white instead of black.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

 [e-mail] wrote:
>>anyone out there have information about "purple" hudson bay blankets--in
a heated discusson about them but have no documentation for support---I
have 2 of them both 6 point---have never seen any others ---got them from
my aunt marie in vancover back in about 1962....she had them on order for over
18 months before she got them---been told by a bunch of people that there
is no such thing as "purple" hudson bay blankets "<<
[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Hunting Pouch
Date: 15 Mar 1999 22:39:03 -0800

In my search for examples of an authentic hunting pouch to recreate (RM
fur trade era), the best (and only good pictoral) reference I have found
is Madison Grant's book "The Kentucky Rifle Hunting Pouch" (I think
that's the accurate title - if not, it's close) via interlibrary loan.
There are numerous examples which are dated to the appropriate
timeframe.   The problem is that, in spite of the (b&w) photographs,
there is a lack of technical detail from which to base a reproduction.
Most of the several examples whose general shape appeal to me are
described as being made of calfskin and further described by their
general overall (L x W) dimension but that is the end of the details.
What I can find as calfskin is extremely thin and I question it's
durability.  Is this stuff really suitable?   Does anyone know a source
of greater printed technical detail or do I need to actually find an
original who's keeper is willing to allow a "hands-on" examination?

Tom




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
Date: 15 Mar 1999 22:40:49 EST

hello...... i am a first time post-er!

i have a question that i hope you might be able to answer.

on our property we have an earthern "lodge", "hut", whatever you would like to
call it.  it is a room built back into a large hill.  the southern face of it
is made of large logs.  it has no window, only a wooden plank door on forged
iron pin-hinges.  it's a very neat kind of thing, but we are looking for
references to what a "trappers lodge" or fur-trade trading post of this sort
might have looked like or had for accoutrements.  i have looked up "the museum
of the fur trade" on the web, but alas it does not provide any kind of
resource information about the actual structure and what it would have looked
like doing it's heyday....... can anyone recommend good books about this
subject??

thanks much
kinjano



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Longhunter/Mountain Man question
Date: 15 Mar 1999 21:11:30 -0700

         Reply to:   RE: MtMan-List: Longhunter/Mountain Man question
Wilson Price Hunt  in 1810, met two men, Benjamin Jones and Alexander =
Carson who had been in the mountains since 1808.  They turned around and =
went upriver with Hunt.  He later met 3 men also heading back to the =
settlements who turned around upriver, Edward Robinson, John Hoback & =
Jacob Rizner.  These were described as Kentucky hunters and Robinson was =
66 years old.

DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants

Pulakabayo wrote:
>Hello the list!
>
>Back when I was on the list about a year ago (before I accidentally kilt =
my
>computer) someone mentioned that they had run across a source whereas a =
party
>in the early fur trade era was heading into the mountains. They needed =
guides,
>and they wound up hiring two Virginia longhunters who were on their way =
out of
>the mountains to guide them in.
>
>Anyone know where I ought to be looking for such an incident?
>
>Thanks,
>Jim
>
>
>
>RFC822 header
>-----------------------------------
>
> Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with =
ESMTP
>   (SMTPD32-5.01) id A5A62F0190; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:22:46 -0700
> Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1)
>     id 10LZLv-0003vG-00
>     for [e-mail]; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:20:19 -0700
> Received: from [198.81.17.8] (helo=3Dimo18.mx.aol.com)
>     by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1)
>     id 10LZLs-0003sR-00
>     for [e-mail]; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:20:16 -0700
> Received: from [e-mail]
>     by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id fDKKa16411
>      for <[e-mail]>; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:04:46 -0500 (=
EST)
> From: [e-mail]
> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:04:46 EST
> To: [e-mail]
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Subject: MtMan-List: Longhunter/Mountain Man question
> Content-type: text/plain; charset=3DUS-ASCII
> Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
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> X-RCPT-TO: <[e-mail]>
> X-UIDL: 915556340
> Status: U
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hunting Pouch
Date: 15 Mar 1999 20:22:38 -0800



Tom Roberts wrote:

> In my search for examples of an authentic hunting pouch to recreate (RM
> <snip>   The problem is that, in spite of the (b&w) photographs,
> there is a lack of technical detail from which to base a reproduction.
> <snip>
> What I can find as calfskin is extremely thin and I question it's
> durability.  Is this stuff really suitable?

Tom,

Many of the pouches I see that are home made today use way too heavy a grade
of leather. Many old pouches and the nicer reproductions are usually lined
with cloth of some type like pillow ticking or heavy linen. The calf skin
may be just fine if it is backed with cloth.

>   Does anyone know a source
> of greater printed technical detail or do I need to actually find an
> original who's keeper is willing to allow a "hands-on" examination?

You can find some good construction details in the BOB series and in the
Sketch Book series. Take those construction details and adapt them to the
designs and styles you see in Madison Grant's book. Should end up with a
nice pouch. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Longhunter/Mountain Man question
Date: 15 Mar 1999 20:27:35 -0800



Phyllis and Don Keas wrote:

>          Reply to:   RE: MtMan-List: Longhunter/Mountain Man question
> Wilson Price Hunt  in 1810, met two men, Benjamin Jones and Alexander Carson who had been in the mountains since 1808.  They turned around and went upriver with Hunt.  He later met 3 men also heading back to the settlements who turned around upriver, Edward Robinson, John Hoback & Jacob Rizner.  These were described as Kentucky hunters and Robinson was 66 years old.
>
> DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants

Don and Phyllis,

Thanks for diging a bit deeper. I intend to save this little post to remind me that "long hunters" were in the mountains much earlier than many wish to believe. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
Date: 16 Mar 1999 06:27:11 -0600

Sounds like you have a "dugout" house.  It was a fairly common building =
practice where timber was scarce.  I am sure your local library has =
plenty of books about them.  Sounds plenty neat.  Lots of terriffic =
artifacts turn up around such structures.  Borrow or buy a good metal =
detector and search carefully all around.  Find the old outhouse pit, =
too.  Lots of goodies can be found there....particularly old liquor =
bottles.  Lots of women forbad their men to drink and the men that drank =
anyhow would dispose of the empty bottles down the hole in the outhouse. =
 Where do you live?
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----


>hello...... i am a first time post-er! =20
>
>i have a question that i hope you might be able to answer.
>
>on our property we have an earthern "lodge", "hut", whatever you would =
like to
>call it.  it is a room built back into a large hill.  the southern face =
of it
>is made of large logs.  it has no window, only a wooden plank door on =
forged
>iron pin-hinges.  it's a very neat kind of thing, but we are looking =
for
>references to what a "trappers lodge" or fur-trade trading post of this =
sort
>might have looked like or had for accoutrements.  i have looked up "the =
museum
>of the fur trade" on the web, but alas it does not provide any kind of
>resource information about the actual structure and what it would have =
looked
>like doing it's heyday....... can anyone recommend good books about =
this
>subject??
>
>thanks much
>kinjano
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
Date: 16 Mar 1999 09:20:08 EST

In a message dated 99-03-16 07:19:51 EST, you write:

<< Sounds like you have a "dugout" house.  It was a fairly common building
practice where timber was scarce.  I am sure your local library has plenty of
books about them.  Sounds plenty neat.  Lots of terriffic artifacts turn up
around such structures.  Borrow or buy a good metal detector and search
carefully all around.  Find the old outhouse pit, too.  Lots of goodies can be
found there....particularly old liquor bottles.  Lots of women forbad their
men to drink and the men that drank anyhow would dispose of the empty bottles
down the hole in the outhouse.  Where do you live?
 Lanney Ratcliff >>

Lanney, thanks for the reply!  unfortunately this is not an "old" structure.
it was built only 7 years ago... and it is in northwest ohio........ i only
wish it was out west and a century old....... what a neat treat that would be.

anyway it was built by a group of mt. men/reenactors as part of a living
history educational center and it has never been appointed like it should be
for what it is supposed to represent.  that is why i am looking for reference
books on furnishings, decorations, accoutrements, etc. for a shelter such as
this......... although i suppose info on prairie cabins/settlements might come
close, i just thought there might be more pointed kinds of references that
would help.

i'll keep you posted as to how it goes.

also, is there a page for posting gifs....... i would love to send in a photo
of this dugout cabin...... but if this list is like others i subscribe to,
then some of you won't appreciate  jpeg attachments.

let me know
kinjano



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ron Chamberlain" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
Date: 16 Mar 1999 08:41:16 -0700

Siyo,
Put your pic up on your site then send the url to the list, and we can take
a gander.

YMOS
Lonewolf



-----Original Message-----


>In a message dated 99-03-16 07:19:51 EST, you write:
>
><< Sounds like you have a "dugout" house.  It was a fairly common building
>practice where timber was scarce.  I am sure your local library has plenty
of
>books about them.  Sounds plenty neat.  Lots of terriffic artifacts turn up
>around such structures.  Borrow or buy a good metal detector and search
>carefully all around.  Find the old outhouse pit, too.  Lots of goodies can
be
>found there....particularly old liquor bottles.  Lots of women forbad their
>men to drink and the men that drank anyhow would dispose of the empty
bottles
>down the hole in the outhouse.  Where do you live?
> Lanney Ratcliff >>
>
>Lanney, thanks for the reply!  unfortunately this is not an "old"
structure.
>it was built only 7 years ago... and it is in northwest ohio........ i only
>wish it was out west and a century old....... what a neat treat that would
be.
>
>anyway it was built by a group of mt. men/reenactors as part of a living
>history educational center and it has never been appointed like it should
be
>for what it is supposed to represent.  that is why i am looking for
reference
>books on furnishings, decorations, accoutrements, etc. for a shelter such
as
>this......... although i suppose info on prairie cabins/settlements might
come
>close, i just thought there might be more pointed kinds of references that
>would help.
>
>i'll keep you posted as to how it goes.
>
>also, is there a page for posting gifs....... i would love to send in a
photo
>of this dugout cabin...... but if this list is like others i subscribe to,
>then some of you won't appreciate  jpeg attachments.
>
>let me know
>kinjano
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
Date: 16 Mar 1999 10:46:36 -0500

Kinjano,
 Where in N.W Ohio???  Lanney.. mebby someone local to play with!!<G>
D

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1

>Lanney, thanks for the reply!  unfortunately this is not an "old"
structure.
>it was built only 7 years ago... and it is in northwest ohio........ i only
>wish it was out west and a century old....... what a neat treat that would
be.
>
>anyway it was built by a group of mt. men/reenactors as part of a living
>history educational center and it has never been appointed like it should
be
>for what it is supposed to represent.  that is why i am looking for
reference
>books on furnishings, decorations, accoutrements, etc. for a shelter such
as
>this......... although i suppose info on prairie cabins/settlements might
come
>close, i just thought there might be more pointed kinds of references that
>would help.
>
>i'll keep you posted as to how it goes.
>
>also, is there a page for posting gifs....... i would love to send in a
photo
>of this dugout cabin...... but if this list is like others i subscribe to,
>then some of you won't appreciate  jpeg attachments.
>
>let me know
>kinjano
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: HBC blanket colors
Date: 16 Mar 1999 09:03:38 +0100

In the HBC's magazine "The Beaver", June, 1935, is an
article on blankets by Douglas Mackay titled "Blanket
Coverage."  At that time (1935) the"standard colors" for HBC
blankets were "camel, scarlet, empire blue, grey, white,
green and striped."  (p. 48)  Mackay states that the "pastel
shades ... appeared first in 1930 designed for use in modern
homes.  They bring all the excellence of the original
blanket into the delicate color schemes of today."
He lists the pastel shades then being made as "rose, orchid,
sky blue, gold and reseda."  When I look up "reseda" in the
dictionary it seems to be an olive color, while "orchid" is
a purple.
Therefore, this seems to document the purple blanket as an
HBC-brand product, and places its inception at 1930.
In 1935 the blankets still came in un-torn pairs, and cost
!14/pr. for 3 1/2 point and $18/pr. for 4 point.  (Pastel
colors were about $3 more.
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Tinware
Date: 16 Mar 1999 10:11:55 -0600



>>Morning all,
>>While on the subject, how do you drink out of a tin cup without it burning
>>your lips off as the tin transfers the heat something wicked? Is there some
>>secret to it or do you just have to wait for your tea or coffee to cool
>down
>>which is the technique that I use at present. I had thought of putting a
>>band aid at the drinking point. Any comments?
>>Kia Ora
>>Big Bear
>>In  Sun Rising overcast Marlborough New Zealand.


The" secret" procedure is very complex.

First, let it cool.  After that, drink it.

Cheers,
HBC

****************************************
Henry B. Crawford    Box 43191
Curator of History    Museum of Texas Tech University
[e-mail]    Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
806/742-2442     FAX [phone]
              Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because It's There  ******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More on War of 1812 Symposium
Date: 16 Mar 1999 10:24:28 -0600


>9AM--The Detroit Campaign,  by Thomas G. Shaw,  Minnesota Historical
>Society and assistant site director of Historic Fort Snelling.  Thomas,  his
>wife and son, reside in Minneapolis, MN

Tom is an aquaintance of mine.  He's known as "The Shirt Man" among museum
and living history circles because of his particular expertise in fur trade
era clothing.  He knows 'em and he makes 'em.

Cheers,
HBC

****************************************
Henry B. Crawford    Box 43191
Curator of History    Museum of Texas Tech University
[e-mail]    Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
806/742-2442     FAX [phone]
              Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because It's There  ******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kevin Anderson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Gaucher (Left Hand) Arikara
Date: 16 Mar 1999 09:40:23 -0600 (MDT)

Greetings!

I would like to correspond with anyone who has information about an
Arikara chief named Gaucher (Goche, Le Gauche, etc.) or Left Hand.  He
seems to have flourished from just before 1800 to about 1846.

In particular I would like to locate/confirm his original name(s).

I would also like to correspond with anyone who can help me
confirm exactly which Arikara chief visited Washington,
D.C., in 1805 and 1806.  This chief died on his return journey.
Jefferson's letter to the Arikaras, dated 11 April 1806 (item #198,
page 306, in _Letters of the Lewis and Clark Expedition_, edited by
Donald Jackson), lists Piaketo (Eagle's feather), then Toone
(Whippoorwill) and finaly Arketarnawhar (chief of the town).
Jefferson settled on this last name, but was he correct?

Thanks!


Kevin


Kevin S. Anderson
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    "John Hunt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: northwest trade gun for trade?
Date: 16 Mar 1999 12:00:33 -0800

     List members

     Is it permissible to put items   for trade on this list.

                         THANK YOU

John (BIG JOHN) Hunt
Longhunter
Mountainman
southwest  Ohio




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: MtMan-List: Snapping Turtle Shell-Hunting Pouch
Date: 16 Mar 1999 10:13:43 -0700 (MST)



O.K. imitation is the highest form of flattery, and now that this is out of the
way I have a couple of questions about Snapping Turtles, the Fresh Water Variety.
  I have a project in mind if I can get a couple of questions answered.

1. Are they found in the Streams and Rivers of Pennsylvania.

2. Any one know any sources where I can purchase Snapping Turtle Back Shells, com
plete and in tack.

Thanks,

B

--
"The Price Of Freedom
     Is Not Free"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: northwest trade gun for trade?
Date: 16 Mar 1999 13:00:09 -0500

Still lookin fer a lefty gun, are ye??

D


   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


>     List members
>
>     Is it permissible to put items   for trade on this list.
>
>                         THANK YOU
>
>John (BIG JOHN) Hunt
>Longhunter
>Mountainman
>southwest  Ohio
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    "John Hunt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: trade gun for trade
Date: 16 Mar 1999 13:59:12 -0800

     I have a right hand northwest trade gun mfg. by Curly Gostomski, 20ga., long barrell, very good cond, the cheap one that I want
to trade for the same in  left hand lock.
     Only other thing I`m interested in trading for would be a Wilson in left hand lock.

     No rifle trades, no canoe guns, NO SALES

     I hope to be able to see before trading. I`m in southwest Ohio will travel half way to meet if distance is with in reason.



John (BIG JOHN) Hunt
Longhunter
Mountainman
southwest  Ohio




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re:tin cups
Date: 16 Mar 1999 14:13:58 -0600




>
> >While on the subject, how do you drink out of a tin cup without it burning
> >your lips off as the tin transfers the heat something wicked? Is there some
> >secret to it or do you just have to wait for your tea or coffee to cool
> down

I recently bought a stoneware cup, looks kinda like a Japanese Saki cup, no
handle. Anyway,  this cup closely resembles a wooden cup (page 103) in the
Collector's Encyclopedia of the American Revolution, and it's a perfect fit
inside my boiler.         J.D.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: cup repair
Date: 16 Mar 1999 14:23:06 -0600



> >Another question on Tinware, the bottom seam of my 20 year old drinking
> >cup is now "seeping".  How does one fix that using period materials?
>

Old style soldering irons can be found at flea markets for a buck or two, and
work great for resoldering joints without overheating the adjacent solder.

Just heat the soldering iron in a forge, for with a torch, and apply the unleaded
solder to the leaking joint.   Heat just over the temp nedded to melt the solder,
usuall 412 degrees. You might have to warm the cup a bit before you attempt
to solder.

If a rust spot has caused the problem, drill out the hole,
and make a brad from an appropriate sized nail, brad in place, and seal with a
drop of solder.  I have done this a couple of times and it works real well.

J.D.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "The Brooks" <[e-mail]>
Subject:  MtMan-List: Re: Tinware
Date: 16 Mar 1999 20:24:43 +1300

HBC Replied

>The" secret" procedure is very complex.
>
>First, let it cool.  After that, drink it.
>
>Cheers,
>HBC

I knew it was something like that, Only problem down here if you do that and
turn your back a second someone else  drinks it for you. Kind Folk You Know.
Kia Ora
Big Bear
In warm overcast Marlborough New Zealand.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: northwest trade gun for trade?
Date: 16 Mar 1999 17:55:52 -0800

I wish John better success than I had finding a used LH.  I finally
ended up ordering the one I wish I had ordered six months ago.

Tom

Dennis Miles wrote:

> Still lookin fer a lefty gun, are ye??
>
> D
>
>    "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>   Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>     http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Hunt <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 12:19 PM
> Subject: MtMan-List: northwest trade gun for trade?
>
> >     List members
> >
> >     Is it permissible to put items   for trade on this list.
> >
> >                         THANK YOU
> >
> >John (BIG JOHN) Hunt
> >Longhunter
> >Mountainman
> >southwest  Ohio
> >
> >




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
Date: 16 Mar 1999 18:12:01 EST

In a message dated 3/16/99 10:49:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, [e-mail]
writes:

<< Siyo,
 Put your pic up on your site then send the url to the list, and we can take
 a gander.

 YMOS
 Lonewolf >>

lonewolf....... sorry, i don't have a site........ does anyone have one that i
can e-mail the scanned photo too????
kinjano



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
Date: 16 Mar 1999 18:10:45 EST

In a message dated 3/16/99 10:48:07 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Kinjano,
  Where in N.W Ohio???  Lanney.. mebby someone local to play with!!<G>
 D
  >>

near Toledo...... where is Lanney from???
kinjano



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Snapping Turtle Shell-Hunting Pouch
Date: 16 Mar 1999 18:27:43 -0500 (EST)

B,

Email me at [e-mail], I carry snapping and mud turtle shells if
you are interested.

Thanks

Frank V. Rago
A Lion Ate My Sister




At 10:13 AM 3/16/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>
>O.K. imitation is the highest form of flattery, and now that this is out of
the
>way I have a couple of questions about Snapping Turtles, the Fresh Water
Variety.
>  I have a project in mind if I can get a couple of questions answered.
>
>1. Are they found in the Streams and Rivers of Pennsylvania.
>
>2. Any one know any sources where I can purchase Snapping Turtle Back
Shells, com
>plete and in tack.
>
>Thanks,
>
>B
>
>--
>"The Price Of Freedom
>     Is Not Free"
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tinware
Date: 16 Mar 1999 18:13:18 EST

In a message dated 3/16/99 11:13:17 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< The" secret" procedure is very complex.

 First, let it cool.  After that, drink it.
  >>

i love it......... more rocket scientry at it's best!!!!!!
:)
kinjano



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Richard Pickert <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: turtle shell pouch
Date: 16 Mar 1999 16:16:31 -0800 (PST)







 B.

I have made several snapping turtle shell pouches. One of which can be
seen at

home.earthlink.net/~fsimmons/post.htm

go down to clothing and bags and click there.

I also have made dozens of bags from smaller turtle shells and I came
up with a knive sheath that I make from turle. My next project is to
make a derrenger holder from one.

If you are using a shell with the bottom off make sure it is good and
clean. I then drill holes all  around the edge (except for the top
opening). next I lay the shell on a piece of leather and trace it. I
make one piece to go into the shell and one I cut extra large so that
I can cut fringe. I glue the ist piece into the shell and once it is
dried I take an awl and go around and punch out the holes. I then lay
the shell onto the 2nd piece and going around the endge I mark the
holes. It then is a simple mater of sewing it all together and cutting
the lace. for a strap I usually briad some leather but you don't have
to. good luck.




==


      Rick(Walks in the Night)Pickert


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fw:
Date: 16 Mar 1999 17:26:53 -0800



:
: Comments :
:
: ------------------------[ Original Message ]--------------------
: To        : INTERNET[[e-mail]]
: Cc        :
: From        : Jon P. Towns@c1110@PSNSY
: Date        : Tuesday, March 16, 1999 at 7:50:59 am PST
:
: I remember the crowning of the queen.  I was in the 6th grade we all went

: to David Shoups house a few blocks from school to watch it on TV.  I
: started 6th grade in fall of 1952 and finished in spring of 1953.  I
think
: 58 or 59 was a little late.  but that is a 6 yr. gap.  But I don't
: remember many dates some people can reel off dates like they are tattooed

: on their hand.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
Date: 16 Mar 1999 19:45:54 -0600

You MUST be new to the list.  I'm a Texian with Texas ancestors back =
prior to the Texas Revolution.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
[e-mail]
-----Original Message-----


>In a message dated 3/16/99 10:48:07 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>[e-mail] writes:
>
><< Kinjano,
>  Where in N.W Ohio???  Lanney.. mebby someone local to play with!!<G>
> D
>  >>
>
>near Toledo...... where is Lanney from???
>kinjano
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hunting Pouch
Date: 16 Mar 1999 18:42:13 -0600

Roger,
  You're exactly right about most people use leather that is too heavy on
hunting pouches.  Although I will add that a lot of the calf skin that is
available today is a split calf skin, and that would probably be too thin.
I really prefer pouches that are soft enough to lay well against your side
and not stick out like a unwanted apendage.  The last bag I made was out of
a brain tan deer skin that was not broken as well as it should have been.
It turned out to be just right.  It is soft enough to lay against my side
really well and yet it has enough body to retain it's shape.
Pendleton

----------
> From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hunting Pouch
> Date: Monday, March 15, 1999 10:22 PM
>
>
>
> Tom Roberts wrote:
>
> > In my search for examples of an authentic hunting pouch to recreate (RM
> > <snip>   The problem is that, in spite of the (b&w) photographs,
> > there is a lack of technical detail from which to base a reproduction.
> > <snip>
> > What I can find as calfskin is extremely thin and I question it's
> > durability.  Is this stuff really suitable?
>
> Tom,
>
> Many of the pouches I see that are home made today use way too heavy a
grade
> of leather. Many old pouches and the nicer reproductions are usually
lined
> with cloth of some type like pillow ticking or heavy linen. The calf skin
> may be just fine if it is backed with cloth.
>
> >   Does anyone know a source
> > of greater printed technical detail or do I need to actually find an
> > original who's keeper is willing to allow a "hands-on" examination?
>
> You can find some good construction details in the BOB series and in the
> Sketch Book series. Take those construction details and adapt them to the
> designs and styles you see in Madison Grant's book. Should end up with a
> nice pouch. I remain....
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
> >
> >
> >
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
Date: 16 Mar 1999 19:47:54 -0600

Kinjano,
  Man don't ever ask a feller where he's from.  If he is a Texian, he'll
tell you right off.  If he isn't, there ain't no need in embarrassing him.


  I couldn't help it folks.  The devil made me do it.
Pendleton

----------
> From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
> Date: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 7:45 PM
>
> You MUST be new to the list.  I'm a Texian with Texas ancestors back
prior to the Texas Revolution.
> YMOS
> Lanney Ratcliff
> [e-mail]
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 5:28 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
>
>
> >In a message dated 3/16/99 10:48:07 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> >[e-mail] writes:
> >
> ><< Kinjano,
> >  Where in N.W Ohio???  Lanney.. mebby someone local to play with!!<G>
> > D
> >  >>
> >
> >near Toledo...... where is Lanney from???
> >kinjano
> >
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
Date: 16 Mar 1999 20:56:04 -0500

Lanney is a Texian.. 'Nuff said..

[e-mail] wrote:

> In a message dated 3/16/99 10:48:07 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> [e-mail] writes:
>
> << Kinjano,
>   Where in N.W Ohio???  Lanney.. mebby someone local to play with!!<G>
>  D
>   >>
>
> near Toledo...... where is Lanney from???
> kinjano



--

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
        DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
 Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
Date: 16 Mar 1999 21:02:35 -0500

Pendleton,
 Crawl back under yer cactus and quit scarin' the boy...<G>
D

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


>Kinjano,
>  Man don't ever ask a feller where he's from.  If he is a Texian, he'll
>tell you right off.  If he isn't, there ain't no need in embarrassing him.
>
>
>  I couldn't help it folks.  The devil made me do it.
>Pendleton
>
>----------
>> From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail]
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
>> Date: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 7:45 PM
>>
>> You MUST be new to the list.  I'm a Texian with Texas ancestors back
>prior to the Texas Revolution.
>> YMOS
>> Lanney Ratcliff
>> [e-mail]
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> Date: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 5:28 PM
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
>>
>>
>> >In a message dated 3/16/99 10:48:07 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>> >[e-mail] writes:
>> >
>> ><< Kinjano,
>> >  Where in N.W Ohio???  Lanney.. mebby someone local to play with!!<G>
>> > D
>> >  >>
>> >
>> >near Toledo...... where is Lanney from???
>> >kinjano
>> >
>>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
Date: 16 Mar 1999 20:20:26 -0600

I'M SORRY  ! ! !  Dang, don't nobody want to have fun no more.
Pendleton

----------
> From: Dennis Miles <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
> Date: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 8:02 PM
>
> Pendleton,
>  Crawl back under yer cactus and quit scarin' the boy...<G>
> D
>
>    "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>   Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>     http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
> -----Original Message-----
> From: larry pendleton <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 9:16 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
>
>
> >Kinjano,
> >  Man don't ever ask a feller where he's from.  If he is a Texian, he'll
> >tell you right off.  If he isn't, there ain't no need in embarrassing
him.
> >
> >
> >  I couldn't help it folks.  The devil made me do it.
> >Pendleton
> >
> >----------
> >> From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
> >> To: [e-mail]
> >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
> >> Date: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 7:45 PM
> >>
> >> You MUST be new to the list.  I'm a Texian with Texas ancestors back
> >prior to the Texas Revolution.
> >> YMOS
> >> Lanney Ratcliff
> >> [e-mail]
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> >> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> >> Date: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 5:28 PM
> >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
> >>
> >>
> >> >In a message dated 3/16/99 10:48:07 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> >> >[e-mail] writes:
> >> >
> >> ><< Kinjano,
> >> >  Where in N.W Ohio???  Lanney.. mebby someone local to play
with!!<G>
> >> > D
> >> >  >>
> >> >
> >> >near Toledo...... where is Lanney from???
> >> >kinjano
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
Date: 16 Mar 1999 22:07:28 -0500

Aw hell. Larry. din't mean ta hurt yer feelins...C'mon up 'n I'll share me
whiskey wi' ye...
Better now???
D

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


>I'M SORRY  ! ! !  Dang, don't nobody want to have fun no more.
>Pendleton
>
>----------
>> From: Dennis Miles <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail]
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
>> Date: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 8:02 PM
>>
>> Pendleton,
>>  Crawl back under yer cactus and quit scarin' the boy...<G>
>> D
>>
>>    "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>>   Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>>     http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: larry pendleton <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> Date: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 9:16 PM
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
>>
>>
>> >Kinjano,
>> >  Man don't ever ask a feller where he's from.  If he is a Texian, he'll
>> >tell you right off.  If he isn't, there ain't no need in embarrassing
>him.
>> >
>> >
>> >  I couldn't help it folks.  The devil made me do it.
>> >Pendleton
>> >
>> >----------
>> >> From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
>> >> To: [e-mail]
>> >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
>> >> Date: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 7:45 PM
>> >>
>> >> You MUST be new to the list.  I'm a Texian with Texas ancestors back
>> >prior to the Texas Revolution.
>> >> YMOS
>> >> Lanney Ratcliff
>> >> [e-mail]
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> >> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> >> Date: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 5:28 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >In a message dated 3/16/99 10:48:07 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>> >> >[e-mail] writes:
>> >> >
>> >> ><< Kinjano,
>> >> >  Where in N.W Ohio???  Lanney.. mebby someone local to play
>with!!<G>
>> >> > D
>> >> >  >>
>> >> >
>> >> >near Toledo...... where is Lanney from???
>> >> >kinjano
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
Date: 16 Mar 1999 23:06:03 -0500

Tell you all what... if you want a page just to pit pix on, I'll set upa
"backdoor" page on my Ronnyvous web site that only we will have the URL
to...  Email me pix and a description and I'll put them on it...

Let me know if any of you want me to do that...

Addison Miller

-----Original Message-----


>In a message dated 3/16/99 10:49:05 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail]
>writes:
>
><< Siyo,
> Put your pic up on your site then send the url to the list, and we can
take
> a gander.
>
> YMOS
> Lonewolf >>
>
>lonewolf....... sorry, i don't have a site........ does anyone have one
that i
>can e-mail the scanned photo too????
>kinjano
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
Date: 16 Mar 1999 22:57:41 EST

In a message dated 3/16/99 9:04:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< quit scarin' the boy >>

ummmmmmmm............ guess again, sweetie!



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
Date: 16 Mar 1999 23:12:14 -0500

I got a GOOD receipe for whisky even a self-respectin(?) Texican wouldn't
drink.... !!  I'm a transplanted Texican, and I DAMN sure won't!!  But, then
again, I ain't never met Lanny... hehe.... :)

Addison Miller
aka Little Wolf

-----Original Message-----


>Aw hell. Larry. din't mean ta hurt yer feelins...C'mon up 'n I'll share me
>whiskey wi' ye...
>Better now???
>D
>
>   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>-----Original Message-----
>From: larry pendleton <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 9:48 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
>
>
>>I'M SORRY  ! ! !  Dang, don't nobody want to have fun no more.
>>Pendleton
>>
>>----------
>>> From: Dennis Miles <[e-mail]>
>>> To: [e-mail]
>>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
>>> Date: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 8:02 PM
>>>
>>> Pendleton,
>>>  Crawl back under yer cactus and quit scarin' the boy...<G>
>>> D
>>>
>>>    "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>>>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>>>   Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>>>     http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: larry pendleton <[e-mail]>
>>> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>>> Date: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 9:16 PM
>>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
>>>
>>>
>>> >Kinjano,
>>> >  Man don't ever ask a feller where he's from.  If he is a Texian,
he'll
>>> >tell you right off.  If he isn't, there ain't no need in embarrassing
>>him.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >  I couldn't help it folks.  The devil made me do it.
>>> >Pendleton
>>> >
>>> >----------
>>> >> From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
>>> >> To: [e-mail]
>>> >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
>>> >> Date: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 7:45 PM
>>> >>
>>> >> You MUST be new to the list.  I'm a Texian with Texas ancestors back
>>> >prior to the Texas Revolution.
>>> >> YMOS
>>> >> Lanney Ratcliff
>>> >> [e-mail]
>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >> From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>>> >> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>>> >> Date: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 5:28 PM
>>> >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> >In a message dated 3/16/99 10:48:07 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>>> >> >[e-mail] writes:
>>> >> >
>>> >> ><< Kinjano,
>>> >> >  Where in N.W Ohio???  Lanney.. mebby someone local to play
>>with!!<G>
>>> >> > D
>>> >> >  >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> >near Toledo...... where is Lanney from???
>>> >> >kinjano
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>
>
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
Date: 16 Mar 1999 22:52:42 EST

In a message dated 3/16/99 8:38:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, [e-mail]
writes:

<< You MUST be new to the list.  I'm a Texian with Texas ancestors back prior
to the Texas Revolution.
 YMOS
 Lanney Ratcliff >>

so i assume this means you don't live in ohio, right???
kinjano



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
Date: 16 Mar 1999 23:46:46 -0500

Hmmmm.... I think Ohio is in the NE part of Texas....


-----Original Message-----


>In a message dated 3/16/99 8:38:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, [e-mail]
>writes:
>
><< You MUST be new to the list.  I'm a Texian with Texas ancestors back
prior
>to the Texas Revolution.
> YMOS
> Lanney Ratcliff >>
>
>so i assume this means you don't live in ohio, right???
>kinjano
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Barbara Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: A Gathering of Women
Date: 16 Mar 1999 20:52:31 -0800

Well, being one of the ladies with too damn much stuff, I just couldn't
keep quiet any longer. I'm trying to get better (i.e., lighter and
less), but what works for men folks don't always work for usens.  Which
leads me to my question:
Any women reading this list who would be interested in attending a doins
just for women?  Two years back Elk Woman and Barefoot Woman (former Hyu
Eenas) held "A Gathering of Women" on Mt. Rainier. I couldn't attend due
to work, but I've heard great stories of a wonderful week on the
mountain, with classes and seminars, and plenty of opportunity to
practice skills away from critical eyes.  I'm trying like hell to get
them to do another one.  I've been mentored by men for the past five
years, and while I dearly love my running buddies, I need to know some
things that men just don't care about!  If there's any women out there
interested, please email me directly.

Capt. Lahti, it was great meeting you at Enumclaw! Chris and I sure
enjoyed the parched corn.  I can testify for the binding qualities - but
you really don't want to hear about it!  As for swimming across the
creek naked for chocolate, I'd really be much more interested if you'd
put the chocolate in one of Tom's lovely copper boilers!  By the way,
what can we women put up to intice you fellas to make the return trip in
the buff?




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: lube
Date: 16 Mar 1999 23:50:47 EST

I have worked for several years on lubricants for muzzle loading rifles
and just recieved this from a good friend of mine and he asked me to
comment on it and provide my input---he has used my lubricant for
competative shooting and will not use anything else to shoot and to clean
with--i thought it would be a good subject to start a good discussion
about---and the pro's and con's of the different type of lubricants and
what is the majority of the peoples preference in a lubricant.  I know we
have had some discussion in the past so this may add to the base of
knowledge---it was real interesting to me and brought  out some
interesting points---my personal feeling is there is a difference in
patch lubricants depending on hunting and target shooting---yet you must
have one you can do both with and not have to rezero your gun for eather
type of shooting---have tried everything including the web terry teflon
ticking and each has its place in different types of shooting and
requirements.

please feel free to provide me your input even offline if you wish--again
thanks for your future input--no flame wars only positative discussion
and what you feel is a good and proper patch lubricant and why---note i
am not hammering on the products mentioned only trying to establish a
good base line for proper patch lubricants--

"HAWK"
Michael pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor Florida  34684
E-mail:   [e-mail]



I tried the Wonder 1000 theory, and I'd love to see someone
actually  do that. I've watched 5 different guys try it, and the record
is 8
shots, same as I got. Of course, another way to look at it is: on any
given day that I am hunting deer with it and I get off 10 shots and
don't have a deer to show for it, I probably ought to go home and give
some serious consideration to what I am doing wrong.

 Tony,

You have no idea how much humor has come out of Ox-Yoke's claims on the
1000 Shot Plus lube.  To the point where some of us now call them
Ox-Joke. With any of my three BP rifles "an historic feat" is getting the
4th ball down the bore without resorting to a bigger hammer.
I'll run you through the full story since the snow has started to fall.
Lets go back to the early 1980's.

A shooter/buckskinner by the name of Young, living in California, went
to the range one day and forgot his patch lube.  In utter desperation he
whips out a tube of Chap-Stick and smears it on a few patches.  Lo &
Behold it worked better than the lube he had been using.  Several of his
buddies tried his idea and reported it worked well.  So Young then
tracked down the source of Chap- Stick which is a common lip balm
formulation that has been floating around since the late 19th century.
Chap-Stick is petrolatum (petroleum jelly) with 5% cetyl alcohol and
water.  The cetyl alcohol acting as the emulsifyer. With the cetyl
alcohol the water forms minute beads within the petrolatum. Without the
cetyl alcohol you can't get the water to mix in any way with the
petrolatum.  Huge quantities of cetyl alcohol are used in the production
of PVC emulsion resins used in kitchen flooring.  (My old job was as an
R&D
Tech. on these resins.)  The petrolatum is the moisture barrier and
carrier for a topical agent used to soothe chapped lips.  The water
emulsified into the petrolatum reduces the drag of the "stick" when you
apply it to your lips and acts as the moisturizing agent.  Young then
finds a place to buy Chap-Stick in bulk and packages it as Young Country
Arms 103 Lube.  That his lube and Chap->Stick are identical in every
respect, right down to the color, suggested he simply bought from the
makers of Chap-Stick in bulk quantities. Now Ted Bottomly had started
Ox-Yoke and made pre-cut patches and packs of patch cloth.  He wanted a
patch lube to round out his line.  He bought the first Ox-Yoke lube from
Young.  When I first saw them I was at the late C.P. Wood's house in West
Virginia.  Woody was looking at a 4 ounce container
of Young Country 103 and a 3 ounce container of Ox-Yoke's patch lube.
Both were identical in every respect, including color.  You paid the same
price for 3 ounces of Ox-Yoke's lube as you paid for  4 ounces of Young's
lube.  The logical conclusion would be that Ox-Yoke was buying from Young
and the missing ounce was Ox-Yoke's profit on the deal.

Both were advertising their respective lubes in the magazines.  Young
advertised that you could fire a hundred rounds without wiping the bore
with his lube.  Three months later, Ox-Yoke would advertise that when you
used their lube you could fire 200 rounds without wiping the bore.  The 3
month lag time in the mags being the lag time in getting adds scheduled.
This went on, each one upping the ante, so to speak.
Those of us connected with the Buckskin Report discussed this in letters
and thought it a great joke.

The others in the field at that time were Hodgdon with their "Spit-Patch"
which was nothing more than beeswax emulsified in water with a soap.
Then there was T/C Maxi-Lube which was nothing more than the same
petroleum grease they used to grease the bearings in their machines.
Blue and Grey products was selling an automotive wheel bearing grease
that had been pigmented, not dyed, blue. I receieved several letters from
Doc Carlson.  He was seeing BP muzzleloaders come into his shop with
balls or slugs stuck in the bore just ahead of the powder charge.  You
could not pull these projectiles by any normal method.
He would have to remove the breech plugs, pull the charge and beat them
out of the bore, toward the muzzle with a heavy rod and a hammer.  He
described the presence of a black tar-like film in the bore where the
projectiles had been frozen in place.  The common thread in this being
that the shooter had used one of the "petroleum-based"  lubes. I had to
explain to Doc that the petroleum greases were nothing more than
petroleum lubricating oils that had been "bodied" by the addition of
metallic soaps such as calcium or cadmium stearate.  With a petroleum
lubricating oil, or grease, anytime you heat them to a high temperature
in the presence of sulfur you get asphalt.  The way asphalts were
produced was to take crude oil and sulfur in an autoclave.  Heat the
mixture to 600 degrees for about 8 hours
and you had road tar.  Which is about what was happening in the gun.
Since the repackaged Chap-Stick was a petroleum wax it did not form
asphalt with sulfur and high temperatures. I then wrote an article for
the Backwoodsman magazine and compared the behavior of the two Chap-Stick
lubes to the behavior of sperm whale oil when it had been used in black
powder guns.

Well, Old Ted Bottomly jumped right onto that one.  three months later
he starts advertising that his lube is "all-natural, non-petroleum" and
authentic, using what our ancesters had used.  At that point I figured
his parents were to Christian to call him asshole so they settled for
Bottomly.  By about 1984, Bottomly and Young had a falling out over
pricing.  The one ounce shy thing with Ox-Yoke pushed most of the
customers to Young's lube. Same thing, same price but more of it with
Young Country 103.  And by this time we were up to 800 rounds between
swabbings.  Technology marches on. Bottomy came out with his first Wonder
Lube.  Years of research went into this lube, or so he claimed.  Now at
this time Ox-Yoke was located in West Suffield, CT.  A short time later I
was searching the drugstore shelves looking for petrolatum-based skin
care products or salves that I coulde repackage and become a millionaire
<vbg>.  I spotted this tube of something
called "Mineral Ice".  Menthol in petrolatum.  Made by a Dermatone
Laboratories located in Suffield, CT.  Out comes the map.  just by a
mere coincidence both companies were located just across the river from
each other. This of course raised doubts as to the "years of research"
comments out of Bottomly. The new Wonder Lube went into the lab.  Proved
to be mineral oil, paraffin wax, a yellow dye and oil of wintergreen.  A
book at work on fats, waxes and oils nailed this one down to a common
chest rub preparation for those with head colds who could not tolerate
camphorated oil. Again it was billed as "all-natural and non-petroleum".
Never mind that paraffin wax comes from paraffinic crude oils and mineral
oil comes from napthenic crude oils, the yellow dye and the oil of
wintergreen should convince anybody that it is all-natural and
non-petroleum. Given the wax and oil, I simply refer to this type of lube
as a remanufactured vaseline.  With the yellow dye the rubes will swear
it is beeswax.

One thing about con artists is that they are never content to leave a
con artest for any length of time.  In 1990, Bottomly comes out with a
new version called 1000 Shot Plus lube.  High-technology now made
possible a lube that eliminated fouling, eliminated the need to clean and
would totally stop bore corrosion. Bottomly searched the world for this
modern technology and found it in Germany after years of searching.  This
advance in this lube was made possible by this
secret micronizing agent.  It gave the lube a micron particle size that
made all of this advancement possible. At that point his chest thumping
ego trip gave away the formula.  This secret micronizing agent is no real
secret and has been around for over 100 years. It is nothing more than a
fossil wax mined in Germany.  The same time of wax used to be mined in
Utah as Utah Wax but the mine closed for lack of business.
Paraffin wax is a hard brittle wax that forms huge crystals.  When you
look at a block of paraffin wax sold for food canning you see lines on
the surface of the blocks of wax.  Those are the lines denoting crystal
size.  It had been found that if you added this fossil wax to paraffin
wax it would reduce the size of these crystals, though nowhere near a
micron in size.  Paraffin wax was limited in which skin care and salve
formulations it could be used in because of the macro-crystallinty of it.
 This made it unsuited to preparations where hardness and brittleness
were objectionable.  By using the fossiol wax addition the paraffin wax
could replace more expensive waxes in these products.  But when you lay
this type of Techno-Nonsense on a bunch of ignorant rube BP shooters they
will beat a path to your door, wallet in hand.

Now, to get back to an historic feat of 3 shots without swabbing the
bore. The problem with this type of lube is that as long as the surface
temperature of the bore is above the melting point of the wax, about 40
to 45 C, the fouling deposited by the combustion of the powder will slide
off the metal when pressure is applied to it.  When the surface
temperature of the bore is below the melting point of the wax it will act
as an adhesive and hold the fouling to the surface.  The unburned
charcaol in the powder fouling will adsorb most of the mineral oil
present in the lube.  This turns it into an oily sludge that simply
builds up in the breech with repeated loading of the gun.  After a few
rounds are fired in a flinter you have the oily sludge being blown out of
the vent which then coats the flint and frizzen.  Lubricated flints
strike no sparks.
Now for the real punch line.  With the addition of the micronizing agent
they doubled the amount of dye used so the new lube was more orange in
color, compared to the lemon yellow of the previous version, and they
doubled the amount of oil of wintergreen.  Convince the rubes that it is
now even more natural. During the past few years there has been much
bitching about the quality of Ox-Joke's pre-lubed patches.  I have seen
packs in the store where the lube had turned hard and brown.  The mineral
oil migrates out of the paraffin wax into the low density polyethlene
used in the bags.  This makes the lube hard and brittle.  It goes back to
paraffin wax properties.  With these an historic feat is getting the
second ball down the barrel without wiping. Ox-Joke supplies T/C with
Bore Butter which is only a slight  modification
of Ox-Joke's standard formula.

Remember the dbate about blowing down the barrel on the message boards.
My off line joke was that as long as you use the repackaged Chap-Stick as
a patch lube you would not get chapped lips from blowing down a cold
barrel.

Then their was Uncle Mike's Apple Green patch lube.  Another paraffin
 wax/mineral oil lube with methylsalicin in it.  Nothing more than a
repackaged arthritis salve.  I can tell you that is was very effective on
a knee suffereing degenerative joint disease. So if you are going to go
out in those North Woods in winter weather to hunt the elusive whitetail
you ought to take all three lubes along.  Prevent chapped lips, take care
of chest colds and arthritic joints from all of the hoofing through the
snow.  No reason for you to return home in anything less than the best of
health in spite ot the weather. Might be a good idea to take along one of
the ascorbic acid-based powders since that is vitamin C.  Then Goex's
sugar-based powder might make an emergency trail food.

I joke with Dixon that it is bad enough we have to deal with the ATF,
what next with these products, the Food and Drug Administration too???
Well, time to go sit out on the deck for a smoke and listen to the snow
flakes fall.

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Brian McNutt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
Date: 16 Mar 1999 22:50:31 -0600

Ohio---Oklahoma; same thing, more or less..............

Brian

-----Original Message-----


>Hmmmm.... I think Ohio is in the NE part of Texas....
>
>







-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Gathering of Women
Date: 16 Mar 1999 20:56:36 -0800

That's some now!  Don't know if it'd be heaven or hell to be the only
mountain MAN to stumble up on those doins!

Wagh!  Medicine Bear

Barbara Smith wrote:

> Well, being one of the ladies with too damn much stuff, I just couldn't
> keep quiet any longer. I'm trying to get better (i.e., lighter and
> less), but what works for men folks don't always work for usens.  Which
> leads me to my question:
> Any women reading this list who would be interested in attending a doins
> just for women?  Two years back Elk Woman and Barefoot Woman (former Hyu
> Eenas) held "A Gathering of Women" on Mt. Rainier. I couldn't attend due
> to work, but I've heard great stories of a wonderful week on the
> mountain, with classes and seminars, and plenty of opportunity to
> practice skills away from critical eyes.  I'm trying like hell to get
> them to do another one.  I've been mentored by men for the past five
> years, and while I dearly love my running buddies, I need to know some
> things that men just don't care about!  If there's any women out there
> interested, please email me directly.
>
> Capt. Lahti, it was great meeting you at Enumclaw! Chris and I sure
> enjoyed the parched corn.  I can testify for the binding qualities - but
> you really don't want to hear about it!  As for swimming across the
> creek naked for chocolate, I'd really be much more interested if you'd
> put the chocolate in one of Tom's lovely copper boilers!  By the way,
> what can we women put up to intice you fellas to make the return trip in
> the buff?




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube
Date: 17 Mar 1999 00:20:31 -0500

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> I have worked for several years on lubricants for muzzle loading rifles
> and just recieved this from a good friend of mine and he asked me to
> comment on it and provide my input---he has used my lubricant for
> competative shooting and will not use anything else to shoot and to clean
> with--i thought it would be a good subject to start a good discussion
> about---and the pro's and con's of the different type of lubricants and
> what is the majority of the peoples preference in a lubricant.  I know we
> have had some discussion in the past so this may add to the base of
> knowledge---it was real interesting to me and brought  out some
> interesting points---my personal feeling is there is a difference in
> patch lubricants depending on hunting and target shooting---yet you must
> have one you can do both with and not have to rezero your gun for eather
> type of shooting---have tried everything including the web terry teflon
> ticking and each has its place in different types of shooting and
> requirements.

[snip]

Mark DeWilde and I worked on our lube for about 2 years.  By the way, you are
QUITE right about the other lubes you mentioned!  Ours has NO petro. products,
molly, telflon, nor any other 20th century "wonder" ingredients.  We don't make
any special claims for it, except that it works better for us than anything else
we've tried, and those who've used it and have reported back to us, claim the
same thing.  Outside of that, it's got a better name than the rest of em.<g>

Fred

--
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
http://www.cap-n-ball.com/thunder/



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Gathering of Women
Date: 17 Mar 1999 00:20:51 -0500

*chuckles*... Remember the stories of whatthe Indian Women did to men? Need
I say more, Bear??  hehe...

Little Wolf

-----Original Message-----


>That's some now!  Don't know if it'd be heaven or hell to be the only
>mountain MAN to stumble up on those doins!
>
>Wagh!  Medicine Bear
>
>Barbara Smith wrote:
>
>> Well, being one of the ladies with too damn much stuff, I just couldn't
>> keep quiet any longer. I'm trying to get better (i.e., lighter and
>> less), but what works for men folks don't always work for usens.  Which
>> leads me to my question:
>> Any women reading this list who would be interested in attending a doins
>> just for women?  Two years back Elk Woman and Barefoot Woman (former Hyu
>> Eenas) held "A Gathering of Women" on Mt. Rainier. I couldn't attend due
>> to work, but I've heard great stories of a wonderful week on the
>> mountain, with classes and seminars, and plenty of opportunity to
>> practice skills away from critical eyes.  I'm trying like hell to get
>> them to do another one.  I've been mentored by men for the past five
>> years, and while I dearly love my running buddies, I need to know some
>> things that men just don't care about!  If there's any women out there
>> interested, please email me directly.
>>
>> Capt. Lahti, it was great meeting you at Enumclaw! Chris and I sure
>> enjoyed the parched corn.  I can testify for the binding qualities - but
>> you really don't want to hear about it!  As for swimming across the
>> creek naked for chocolate, I'd really be much more interested if you'd
>> put the chocolate in one of Tom's lovely copper boilers!  By the way,
>> what can we women put up to intice you fellas to make the return trip in
>> the buff?
>
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube
Date: 17 Mar 1999 00:30:13 EST

fred what kind of lube are you talking about---go offline and give me
some more info---

"HAWK"
Michael pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor Florida  34684
E-mail:   [e-mail]

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Gathering of Women
Date: 16 Mar 1999 21:31:29 -0800

I'm a keepin' my scalp covered on this one Sean...and wearin' my fastest mocs
too!  But jes between us fellers...kinda sets a coon to dreamin'!

MB

sean wrote:

> *chuckles*... Remember the stories of whatthe Indian Women did to men? Need
> I say more, Bear??  hehe...
>
> Little Wolf
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 11:56 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Gathering of Women
>
> >That's some now!  Don't know if it'd be heaven or hell to be the only
> >mountain MAN to stumble up on those doins!
> >
> >Wagh!  Medicine Bear
> >
> >Barbara Smith wrote:
> >
> >> Well, being one of the ladies with too damn much stuff, I just couldn't
> >> keep quiet any longer. I'm trying to get better (i.e., lighter and
> >> less), but what works for men folks don't always work for usens.  Which
> >> leads me to my question:
> >> Any women reading this list who would be interested in attending a doins
> >> just for women?  Two years back Elk Woman and Barefoot Woman (former Hyu
> >> Eenas) held "A Gathering of Women" on Mt. Rainier. I couldn't attend due
> >> to work, but I've heard great stories of a wonderful week on the
> >> mountain, with classes and seminars, and plenty of opportunity to
> >> practice skills away from critical eyes.  I'm trying like hell to get
> >> them to do another one.  I've been mentored by men for the past five
> >> years, and while I dearly love my running buddies, I need to know some
> >> things that men just don't care about!  If there's any women out there
> >> interested, please email me directly.
> >>
> >> Capt. Lahti, it was great meeting you at Enumclaw! Chris and I sure
> >> enjoyed the parched corn.  I can testify for the binding qualities - but
> >> you really don't want to hear about it!  As for swimming across the
> >> creek naked for chocolate, I'd really be much more interested if you'd
> >> put the chocolate in one of Tom's lovely copper boilers!  By the way,
> >> what can we women put up to intice you fellas to make the return trip in
> >> the buff?
> >
> >
> >




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Butch <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Gathering of Women
Date: 16 Mar 1999 21:47:42 -0800

Frank wrote:
>
> I'm a keepin' my scalp covered on this one Sean...and wearin' my fastest mocs
> too!  But jes between us fellers...kinda sets a coon to dreamin'!
>
> MB
>
> sean wrote:
>
> > *chuckles*... Remember the stories of whatthe Indian Women did to men? Need
> > I say more, Bear??  hehe...
> >
> > Little Wolf
> >

> >
> > >That's some now!  Don't know if it'd be heaven or hell to be the only
> > >mountain MAN to stumble up on those doins!
> > >
> > >Wagh!  Medicine Bear



    One would think y'all had never heard of sentries....Armed sentries....

    Butch



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Gathering of Women
Date: 16 Mar 1999 21:45:11 -0800



Barbara Smith wrote:

>  I need to know some
> things that men just don't care about!

Barbara,

How do you know we don't care?

>
>
> Capt. Lahti, it was great meeting you at Enumclaw!

And you!

> Chris and I sure
> enjoyed the parched corn.  I can testify for the binding qualities - but
> you really don't want to hear about it!

It's called "Sitting Bull's Revenge"! Men and women aren't that different!
I've heard it.

>  As for swimming across the
> creek naked for chocolate, I'd really be much more interested if you'd
> put the chocolate in one of Tom's lovely copper boilers!

If that is what it takes to get the gals to swim the lake, I'll talk to Tom.

>  By the way,
> what can we women put up to intice you fellas to make the return trip in
> the buff?

Well I, being the guy that I am, can imagine an appropriate incentive but I
doubt any of us could collect once we made it over! <G> Course you knew
that. I'll remain on my side of the lake and remain.......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Laughlin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Gathering of Women
Date: 16 Mar 1999 22:46:33 -0800

yes, would love a ladies get together.  Seems like we do the planning
packing and spend the time getting the guys ready.  Would be fun to do it
for us only.

Barbara Smith wrote:

> Well, being one of the ladies with too damn much stuff, I just couldn't
> keep quiet any longer. I'm trying to get better (i.e., lighter and
> less), but what works for men folks don't always work for usens.  Which
> leads me to my question:
> Any women reading this list who would be interested in attending a doins
> just for women?  Two years back Elk Woman and Barefoot Woman (former Hyu
> Eenas) held "A Gathering of Women" on Mt. Rainier. I couldn't attend due
> to work, but I've heard great stories of a wonderful week on the
> mountain, with classes and seminars, and plenty of opportunity to
> practice skills away from critical eyes.  I'm trying like hell to get
> them to do another one.  I've been mentored by men for the past five
> years, and while I dearly love my running buddies, I need to know some
> things that men just don't care about!  If there's any women out there
> interested, please email me directly.
>
> Capt. Lahti, it was great meeting you at Enumclaw! Chris and I sure
> enjoyed the parched corn.  I can testify for the binding qualities - but
> you really don't want to hear about it!  As for swimming across the
> creek naked for chocolate, I'd really be much more interested if you'd
> put the chocolate in one of Tom's lovely copper boilers!  By the way,
> what can we women put up to intice you fellas to make the return trip in
> the buff?






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Laughlin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Gathering of Women
Date: 16 Mar 1999 22:48:06 -0800

Butch, bet we'd have a hard time keeping it to ladies only.  Bet some of you guys
would just have to peek and see what we all up to.  (Smiling)

Butch wrote:

> Frank wrote:
> >
> > I'm a keepin' my scalp covered on this one Sean...and wearin' my fastest mocs
> > too!  But jes between us fellers...kinda sets a coon to dreamin'!
> >
> > MB
> >
> > sean wrote:
> >
> > > *chuckles*... Remember the stories of whatthe Indian Women did to men? Need
> > > I say more, Bear??  hehe...
> > >
> > > Little Wolf
> > >
>
> > >
> > > >That's some now!  Don't know if it'd be heaven or hell to be the only
> > > >mountain MAN to stumble up on those doins!
> > > >
> > > >Wagh!  Medicine Bear
>
>         One would think y'all had never heard of sentries....Armed sentries....
>
>         Butch






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube
Date: 17 Mar 1999 08:44:36 -0500 (EST)

Fred,

I am also wondering what kind of lube your are talking about.  I am looking
for a lube that is not store bought but rather made.  I am kind of
simplifying the shooting by just buying tickling for patches not the pre cut
and would like a good lube also.

Thanks

Frank
[e-mail]




At 12:30 AM 3/17/99 EST, you wrote:
>fred what kind of lube are you talking about---go offline and give me
>some more info---
>
>"HAWK"
>Michael pierce
>854 Glenfield Dr.
>Palm Harbor Florida  34684
>E-mail:   [e-mail]
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
Date: 17 Mar 1999 08:55:19 EST

In a message dated 99-03-16 23:09:23 EST, you write:

<< Tell you all what... if you want a page just to pit pix on, I'll set upa
 "backdoor" page on my Ronnyvous web site that only we will have the URL
 to...  Email me pix and a description and I'll put them on it...

 Let me know if any of you want me to do that...

 Addison Miller >>

i do! i do! ........... i'll send you copies of the photos early next
week...... getting ready to go to Kalamazoo gun show tomorrow so i don't have
time tonight to get the pix off to you!
kinjano



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Austin, Tim" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Lube
Date: 17 Mar 1999 08:05:00 -0600

Have been using a lube produced by a guy in the Dallas/Fort Worth area for
years and it is great.  He says there is nothing in it that was not readily
available prior to 1840.  He is in Commanche Peak Muzzleloaders.  I do not
have the name of the stuff here with me, will look it up tonight and send it
tomorrow if anyone interested.  His name is Jean Hyde or something like
that.  Others on the list might know of him and what I am speaking of.
Anyway, works really good, and is easier to me just to cut strips of 100%
thin cotton, and grease them myself.

Tim Austin



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Gathering of Women
Date: 17 Mar 1999 09:04:58 EST

In a message dated 99-03-17 01:47:32 EST, you write:

<< yes, would love a ladies get together.   >>


since barb mentioned Mt. Rainier, i am sure that we are probably a good
distance apart from each other...... but i thought i would tell you that we
ARE having a women's rendezvous here in n.w. ohio in September.  It's the
offspring of the old Pathway's Rendezvous for Women that was held every year
for 7 years.  The lady that put on that event retired and we were without one
in this area for two years.  Then a couple of us got together and started this
new one: The Daughters of the Rapids Women's Rendezvous.  Last year was our
first and we had over 60 women and young ladies show up for it........ this
year wear already have 30 pre-registered for it and expect to go over 100 for
the 3 day weekend.......

I remember one year, when Pathways was still running, a couple of ladies came
down from Alaska for that event!!!!!!! They flew in with just their personal
gear and we set them up with tentage, bedding, camp gear, etc....... they
brought whale meat and fresh salmon for the Saturday night potluck (flew down
in an "igloo" cooler packed with dry ice)......... what a treat!

I hope you gals can get your event off of the ground....... anything i can do
to help, let me know!  and if you like i can snail mail you a copy of this
year's flyer or go to www.7e.org on the web and look at the site where we hold
the event!

kinjano
(a.k.a. scary mary)



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tinware
Date: 17 Mar 1999 10:01:09 EST

How about getting back to the original question.  How to take care of tin ware
so it doesn't rust since tin is also very bad to rust.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Gathering of Women
Date: 17 Mar 1999 10:18:49 EST

No What did the Indian women do to white men



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Snapping Turtle Shell-Hunting Pouch
Date: 17 Mar 1999 09:56:45 EST

Check with your State Trappers Assn.  I bought a large tanned snapping turtle
head from a trapper from your state.  He was also selling sausage and tanned
goods from snapping turtles caught in your state.  I met him at the National
Trappers Assn. Convention in MO. this last year.  Penn. has their own
conventions, and the National Convention will be in New York this year.
                                         TrapRJoe



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
Date: 17 Mar 1999 10:09:49 EST

TEXAS -- Oklahoma's Bull pasture



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: turtle shell pouch
Date: 17 Mar 1999 10:06:25 EST

I would love to see what you make but I can't get anything to come up at the
address you gave.  Can you help?



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
Date: 17 Mar 1999 09:30:17 -0500


<sweetie!>

>>>This means you are of the female persuasion...Please say yes..<G>
D

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tinware
Date: 17 Mar 1999 08:45:21 -0800



[e-mail] wrote:

> How about getting back to the original question.  How to take care of tin ware
> so it doesn't rust since tin is also very bad to rust.

Trapper,

I have some tin ware that has never rusted on me and all I did was avoid using
soap without reoiling it some how. I guess you treat it a bit like cast iron. You
can't get it very hot while empty but hot water and a rag is usually enough
cleaning. Anything more than that and it will need some oiling after the soap and
water or next time out it may rust on you too quick to fix. Well, I hope this
helps anyway. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Laughlin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
Date: 17 Mar 1999 09:19:11 -0800

yes, am of the female persuasion

Dennis Miles wrote:

> <sweetie!>
>
> >>>This means you are of the female persuasion...Please say yes..<G>
> D
>
>    "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>   Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>     http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
> >






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
Date: 17 Mar 1999 12:39:10 -0500

Whew!!...
D
   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


>yes, am of the female persuasion
>
>Dennis Miles wrote:
>
>> <sweetie!>
>>
>> >>>This means you are of the female persuasion...Please say yes..<G>
>> D
>>
>>    "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>>   Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>>     http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>> >
>
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: turtle shell pouch
Date: 17 Mar 1999 11:18:25 -0700 (MST)




Went down this A.M., and check out your
bag where I can have full internet access.

Very nice, now I need a Shell....

B
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> B.
>
>I have made several snapping turtle shell pouches. One of which can be
>seen at
>
>home.earthlink.net/~fsimmons/post.htm
>
>go down to clothing and bags and click there.
>
>I also have made dozens of bags from smaller turtle shells and I came
>up with a knive sheath that I make from turle. My next project is to
>make a derrenger holder from one.
>
>If you are using a shell with the bottom off make sure it is good and
>clean. I then drill holes all  around the edge (except for the top
>opening). next I lay the shell on a piece of leather and trace it. I
>make one piece to go into the shell and one I cut extra large so that
>I can cut fringe. I glue the ist piece into the shell and once it is
>dried I take an awl and go around and punch out the holes. I then lay
>the shell onto the 2nd piece and going around the endge I mark the
>holes. It then is a simple mater of sewing it all together and cutting
>the lace. for a strap I usually briad some leather but you don't have
>to. good luck.
>
>
>
>
>==
>
>
>      Rick(Walks in the Night)Pickert
>
>
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>

--
"The Price Of Freedom
     Is Not Free"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
Date: 17 Mar 1999 14:03:13 -0500

I'll set it up tonite, and the URL will be
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/3216/HistList.htm

I'll put the pix on it asap after I get them...




-----Original Message-----


>In a message dated 99-03-16 23:09:23 EST, you write:
>
><< Tell you all what... if you want a page just to pit pix on, I'll set upa
> "backdoor" page on my Ronnyvous web site that only we will have the URL
> to...  Email me pix and a description and I'll put them on it...
>
> Let me know if any of you want me to do that...
>
> Addison Miller >>
>
>i do! i do! ........... i'll send you copies of the photos early next
>week...... getting ready to go to Kalamazoo gun show tomorrow so i don't
have
>time tonight to get the pix off to you!
>kinjano
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Tinware
Date: 17 Mar 1999 11:30:17 -0800

I think we've seen a pretty good response to preventing tinware rusting. To
summarize, dry your tinware thoroughly especially before storing. Do not
expect to store liquids or leave half-full overnight without rusting. Some
degree of seasoning (avoiding harsh detergents) is recommended by some.
Avoid scratching the tin -- handle with care, do not clean with abrasives,
and use wooden utensils. Never boil your cup dry. Buy quality tinware with
good seams. Repairs of rusty seams is possible but tricky. Finally, I have
an old cup which started rusting years ago, but by continuing to dry it
reasonably quickly after each use, it has not deteriorated that much and
remains usable.
  And while we're on the subject, the "hot rim" problem can also be
alleviated by not filling the cup to the brim, and of course, by drawing air
over the rim as you approach that first sip of hot coffee. Tinware is much
more forgiving in this respect than copperware, although not as forgiving as
horn or wood.
YMOS
Patrick Quilter.

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 7:01 AM


How about getting back to the original question.  How to take care of tin
ware
so it doesn't rust since tin is also very bad to rust.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Brian McNutt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
Date: 17 Mar 1999 15:19:54 -0600

Oklahoma --Texas' cesspool (there ain't a river between 'em for nuthin').
Brian

-----Original Message-----


>TEXAS -- Oklahoma's Bull pasture
>






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: new to list and have a question
Date: 17 Mar 1999 16:48:50 -0600

>
> >  Man don't ever ask a feller where he's from.  If he is a Texian, he'll
> >tell you right off.  If he isn't, there ain't no need in embarrassing him.

I heard a story about Texas pride, and though some of the list might enjoy it. <LOL>

Three guys, a Nebraskan, A Texan, and a Coloradoan are out walking
>together one day.  They come across a lantern and a Genie pops out of
>it.  "I will give you each one wish, that's three wishes total," says
>the Genie.
>
>The Nebraskan says, "I am a farmer, my dad was a farmer, and my son will
>also farm.  I want the land to be forever fertile in Nebraska."  With a
>blink of the Genie's eye, 'FOOM" the land in Nebraska is forever made
>fertile for farming.
>
>The Texan is amazed, so he says,  "I want a wall around Texas so that no
>foreigners can come into our precious state!"  Again, with a blink of
>the Genie's eye 'POOF' there is a huge wall around Texas.
>
>The Coloradoan asks, "I'm very curious.  Please tell me more about this
>wall."  The Genie explains, "Well, its about 150 feet high, 50 feet
>thick and completely surrounds the state.  Nothing can get in or out."
>The Coloradoan says, "Sounds like a good place for a lake. Fill it up."
>







-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Richard Pickert <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: turtle shell pouch
Date: 17 Mar 1999 15:13:26 -0800 (PST)


 TRAPRJOE:
you must have done some thing wrong as Bruce got in! If you e-mail me
direct with your snail mail I can send some Pics. I do not have a
puter of my own, I use the one at work.
Rick


[e-mail] wrote:
>
> I would love to see what you make but I can't get anything to come
up at the
> address you gave.  Can you help?
>
>

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
Date: 17 Mar 1999 18:35:37 EST

In a message dated 3/17/99 11:35:56 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Please say yes..<G> >>

yes, yeppers, you bet, si, ya, absolutely, without a doubt,
etc...............100% female!
kinjano
(a.k.a. scary mary)



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: new to list and have a question
Date: 17 Mar 1999 19:58:26 -0500

Now THAT is humor!!!!!!!!!<G>
D

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


>>
>> >  Man don't ever ask a feller where he's from.  If he is a Texian, he'll
>> >tell you right off.  If he isn't, there ain't no need in embarrassing
him.
>
>I heard a story about Texas pride, and though some of the list might enjoy
it. <LOL>
>
>Three guys, a Nebraskan, A Texan, and a Coloradoan are out walking
>>together one day.  They come across a lantern and a Genie pops out of
>>it.  "I will give you each one wish, that's three wishes total," says
>>the Genie.
>>
>>The Nebraskan says, "I am a farmer, my dad was a farmer, and my son will
>>also farm.  I want the land to be forever fertile in Nebraska."  With a
>>blink of the Genie's eye, 'FOOM" the land in Nebraska is forever made
>>fertile for farming.
>>
>>The Texan is amazed, so he says,  "I want a wall around Texas so that no
>>foreigners can come into our precious state!"  Again, with a blink of
>>the Genie's eye 'POOF' there is a huge wall around Texas.
>>
>>The Coloradoan asks, "I'm very curious.  Please tell me more about this
>>wall."  The Genie explains, "Well, its about 150 feet high, 50 feet
>>thick and completely surrounds the state.  Nothing can get in or out."
>>The Coloradoan says, "Sounds like a good place for a lake. Fill it up."
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new to list and have a question
Date: 17 Mar 1999 20:01:22 -0500

Thank you.. With all these Texians on the list, ya never REALLY know...<G>
D

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


>In a message dated 3/17/99 11:35:56 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>[e-mail] writes:
>
><< Please say yes..<G> >>
>
>yes, yeppers, you bet, si, ya, absolutely, without a doubt,
>etc...............100% female!
>kinjano
>(a.k.a. scary mary)
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: LUBE
Date: 17 Mar 1999 20:07:12 -0600

Hawk,
  Good to hear from you.  The piece on the patch lube was very interesting.
 I have used them all.  Some fairly successfully, but most not.  I could
never figure out why you would want to use camphor or wintergreen in a
patch lube that you would use when hunting.  I to make and sell a patch
lube.  I sell it locally, although I have advertised it in a magazine.  I
became quite discouraged by the outrageous claims made by the large
companies.  Also there is no way a guy working out of his house can compete
with the ad budgets of those guys.  The claims that are made by national
brand lube companies are so outlandish it is unreal, and yet the vast
majority of black powder shooters buy it hook line and sinker.
  The other fellow Tim Austin was refering to is Gene High.  Gene and I are
in the same area, and are friendly competitors.
Pendleton



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john c. funk,jr" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:27:03 -0800
Date: 17 Mar 1999 19:26:18 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BE70A3.C14ECE20
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dean,

First, let me thank you, again, for your efforts to establish a =
historical forum in which some of us have gained much valuable =
information.  I for one, truly appreciate your web site and what it =
potentially offers.
Having said that, it appears that the site has turned into a "chat" line =
for those who wish to exchange jokes, snide remarks and other assorted =
drivel, none of which is of any value to those of us who originally =
subscribed and who remain in the shadows waiting to pounce on anything =
resembling  a pertinent, Fur Trade Era,  exchange of historical =
information.  During the "early years" of this site there were some =
vibrant exchanges of real historical data which prompted  us to head for =
the books and do some research to either add to or (cordially) dispute =
various assertions.  That atmosphere appears to be suffering a rapid =
death.
I am wondering if there any way a monthly admonishment, for lack of a =
better term, could be automatically posted on the site which reiterates =
the principal under which the site was originally established?=20
I know you've done a lot for the site and I apologize for hanging this =
on you, but I for one have about had it with some of this B.S. and I =
know of a couple of others who have a wealth of potential valuable =
information to share who have really been done in by the superfluous =
trivia that now exists on the site.  It would be a shame to loose what =
you originally established  and which broadened the knowledge of us all =
concerning the enchanting era of the Fur Trade.
Yr. Obdnt. Srvnt.
John Funk                     =20

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BE70A3.C14ECE20
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3612.1700"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Dean,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>First, let me thank you, again, for =
your efforts=20
to establish a historical forum in which some of us have gained much =
valuable=20
information.  I for one, truly appreciate your web site and what it =

potentially offers.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Having said that, it appears that =
the site has=20
turned into a "chat" line for those who wish to exchange =
jokes, snide=20
remarks and other assorted drivel, none of which is of any value to =
those of us=20
who originally subscribed and who remain in the shadows waiting to =
pounce on=20
anything resembling  a pertinent, Fur Trade Era,  exchange of=20
historical information.  During the "early years" of this =
site=20
there were some vibrant exchanges of real historical data which =
prompted =20
us to head for the books and do some research to either add to or =
(cordially)=20
dispute various assertions.  That atmosphere appears to be =
suffering a=20
rapid death.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I am wondering if</FONT><FONT =
color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2> there any way a monthly admonishment, for lack of a better =
term, could=20
be automatically posted on the site which reiterates the principal under =
which=20
the site was originally established? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I know you've done a lot for the =
site and I=20
apologize for hanging this on you, but I for one have about had it with =
some of=20
this B.S. and I know of a couple of others who have a wealth of =
potential=20
valuable information to share who have really been done in by the =
superfluous=20
trivia that now exists on the site.  It would be a shame to loose =
what you=20
originally established  and which broadened the knowledge of us all =

concerning the enchanting era of the Fur Trade.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Yr. Obdnt. Srvnt.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>John=20
Funk           &nb=
sp;         =20
</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BE70A3.C14ECE20--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:27:03 -0800
Date: 17 Mar 1999 19:31:35 -0700

Thank you John
Joe
Tired of hitting the delete in Wyoming

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ron Chamberlain" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Canadian Cap & rabiit fur
Date: 17 Mar 1999 19:35:52 -0700

Hello,

Can anybody document the Canadian Cap during the Rcky Mt fur trade,
particularily late 1830's?
Was also wondering about use of rabbit fur for moccasin liners (socks).

Thanks,
YMOS
Lonewolf




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jody Carlson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:27:03 -0800
Date: 17 Mar 1999 21:11:40 -0600

John,

Hear, Hear.

[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lube
Date: 17 Mar 1999 22:08:47 -0600

You are talking about Gene High and he makes sissy pink stuff, although =
he doesn't call it that.  The ingredients are period enough except for =
the little teeny piece of Crayola crayon that gives it its =
characteristic color.  It IS a pretty good lube and I have a container =
of it.  However, I use Edge-of-the-Woods, Pendleton's Finest, Gun and =
Barrell Grease.  It is very similar stuff but is a much more manly =
color.
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----


>Have been using a lube produced by a guy in the Dallas/Fort Worth area =
for
>years and it is great.  He says there is nothing in it that was not =
readily
>available prior to 1840.  He is in Commanche Peak Muzzleloaders.  I do =
not
>have the name of the stuff here with me, will look it up tonight and =
send it
>tomorrow if anyone interested.  His name is Jean Hyde or something like
>that.  Others on the list might know of him and what I am speaking of.
>Anyway, works really good, and is easier to me just to cut strips of =
100%
>thin cotton, and grease them myself.
>
>Tim Austin
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Barbara Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: A Gathering of Women
Date: 17 Mar 1999 20:02:05 -0800

Pat,
The one in 1996 was held on Mt. Rainier in Washington. Where are you
located?

As for men sneaking in, I heard that a flatlander out hiking happened to
stumble upon the camp.  It was a hot July day, and the gals was all just
traipsing about in chemises, some of them wet from swimming.  Margaret
said he nearly had a heart attack!  Don't think sentries would be
necessary, we'd just scare 'em to death!  I told Margaret we ought to
let in any man who'se willing to cross-dress female, and abide by our
Mountain Women Rules.  (We're working on those rules.  Think something
like full-body shaving with a straight razor might be in order.)

On another note, the lube discussion is very interesting.  I'd love to
know more about this all-natural lube Kinjano has.  Thank you much for
posting all the information about the various brands out there, Hawk.
I'm a bit confused, though.  Was that YOUR speech, or did you raid that
from somewhere? Anyway, bottom line, are you recommending I use my
"Natural Ice Mentholated Lipbalm (SPF 14)"  for patch lube, or are you
telling me that I'm gonna get asphalt build up in my rifle if I do?

AND, does anyone have a source of historic documentation as to the
contents of patch lube used in the early 19th century?  I'm not against
making my own, if that's a better solution.  God knows I've got plenty
of chapstick!  If there's a recipe to be had, someone please share it.

Yer Most Disobedient Servant,
-Barbara, aka Tassee, Ticky Eena, and Miss Letitia Work




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Laughlin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Gathering of Women
Date: 17 Mar 1999 20:31:01 -0800

Barbara,

We have had a group of gals that have camped together many times and really
enjoyed it.  I'm in Southern California and have always wanted to do a
female gathering.  Think it would be fun and also would give us a chance to
see how it would/could have been.  Many of the encampments we do today have
basically women in them during the day and many for most of the encampment
as the guys are at their jobs and come in for the weekend.  We have done
soap and candlemaking and the chores that would have been left for the
women. Really did make teamwork necessary.

Barbara Smith wrote:

> Pat,
> The one in 1996 was held on Mt. Rainier in Washington. Where are you
> located?
>
> As for men sneaking in, I heard that a flatlander out hiking happened to
> stumble upon the camp.  It was a hot July day, and the gals was all just
> traipsing about in chemises, some of them wet from swimming.  Margaret
> said he nearly had a heart attack!  Don't think sentries would be
> necessary, we'd just scare 'em to death!  I told Margaret we ought to
> let in any man who'se willing to cross-dress female, and abide by our
> Mountain Women Rules.  (We're working on those rules.  Think something
> like full-body shaving with a straight razor might be in order.)
>
> On another note, the lube discussion is very interesting.  I'd love to
> know more about this all-natural lube Kinjano has.  Thank you much for
> posting all the information about the various brands out there, Hawk.
> I'm a bit confused, though.  Was that YOUR speech, or did you raid that
> from somewhere? Anyway, bottom line, are you recommending I use my
> "Natural Ice Mentholated Lipbalm (SPF 14)"  for patch lube, or are you
> telling me that I'm gonna get asphalt build up in my rifle if I do?
>
> AND, does anyone have a source of historic documentation as to the
> contents of patch lube used in the early 19th century?  I'm not against
> making my own, if that's a better solution.  God knows I've got plenty
> of chapstick!  If there's a recipe to be had, someone please share it.
>
> Yer Most Disobedient Servant,
> -Barbara, aka Tassee, Ticky Eena, and Miss Letitia Work






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Gathering of Women
Date: 17 Mar 1999 23:34:38 -0500


I told Margaret we ought to
>let in any man who'se willing to cross-dress female, and abide by our
>Mountain Women Rules.  (We're working on those rules.  Think something
>like full-body shaving with a straight razor might be in order.)
>
 Decides this is probably a VERY good time to stay in Florida.....

Sean





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lewis Kevin Raper" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:27:03 -0800
Date: 17 Mar 1999 23:35:48 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_006F_01BE70CE.E2D5F840
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Gee John,
I have found some very interesting postings on the list. The patch lube =
thread that is now going on is pretty good, and I am sure glad to know =
the proper load of parched corn fer my musket :-) The info on the =
dug-out house was also good. Other infomative threads have been Tinware, =
Oilcloth, Granitware, and Stock Preservation. As a greenhorn, I have =
found alot of useful information. Iffin ya don't like the posts that =
somebody makes, get Microsoft Internet Explorer 5.0, and use the E-Mail =
junk mail filter to block them!
"No man can truly know Christ except he follow him in life" ( Testimony =
of Anabaptist leader Hans Denk)
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: john c. funk,jr=20
  To: Dean Rudy=20
  Cc: history line=20
  Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 9:26 PM
  Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:27:03 -0800


  Dean,
  =20
  First, let me thank you, again, for your efforts to establish a =
historical forum in which some of us have gained much valuable =
information.  I for one, truly appreciate your web site and what it =
potentially offers.
  Having said that, it appears that the site has turned into a "chat" =
line for those who wish to exchange jokes, snide remarks and other =
assorted drivel, none of which is of any value to those of us who =
originally subscribed and who remain in the shadows waiting to pounce on =
anything resembling  a pertinent, Fur Trade Era,  exchange of historical =
information.<SNIP>
  John Funk                     =20

------=_NextPart_000_006F_01BE70CE.E2D5F840
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 5.00.0910.1309"' name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Gee John,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I have found some very interesting postings on the =
list. The=20
patch lube thread that is now going on is pretty good, and I am sure =
glad to=20
know the proper load of parched corn fer my musket :-) The info on the =
dug-out=20
house was also good. Other infomative threads have been Tinware, =
Oilcloth,=20
Granitware, and Stock Preservation. As a greenhorn, I have found alot of =
useful=20
information. Iffin ya don't like the posts that somebody makes, get =
Microsoft=20
Internet Explorer 5.0, and use the E-Mail junk mail filter to block=20
them!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>"No man can truly know Christ except he follow him in =
life" (=20
Testimony of Anabaptist leader Hans Denk)</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20
  <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" title=[e-mail]>john =
c.=20
  funk,jr</A> </DIV>
  <DIV><B>To:</B> <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" =
title=[e-mail]>Dean=20
  Rudy</A> </DIV>
  <DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>history line</A> </DIV>
  <DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, March 17, 1999 9:26 PM</DIV>
  <DIV><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:27:03=20
  -0800</DIV></DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Dean,</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>First, let me thank you, again, =
for your=20
  efforts to establish a historical forum in which some of us have =
gained much=20
  valuable information.  I for one, truly appreciate your web site =
and what=20
  it potentially offers.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Having said that, it appears that =
the site has=20
  turned into a "chat" line for those who wish to exchange =
jokes,=20
  snide remarks and other assorted drivel, none of which is of any value =
to=20
  those of us who originally subscribed and who remain in the shadows =
waiting to=20
  pounce on anything resembling  a pertinent, Fur Trade Era,  =
exchange=20
  of historical information.<SNIP></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>John=20
  =
Funk           &nb=
sp;         =20
  </FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_006F_01BE70CE.E2D5F840--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Lube
Date: 17 Mar 1999 23:36:30 -0500

Not sure about authenticity, but a friend of mine who is a bee keepper,
makes a great patch lube from bees wax and some toher stuff.  I'll look at
the tin and see if it says what is in it.  Reduces the fouling by at least
half, and it is SO much easier to clean afterwards...

Sean





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Laughlin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:27:03 -0800
Date: 17 Mar 1999 20:14:16 -0800


--------------22BFED09CB88E3DA4AEEBC5B
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

John,

I have taught American history for many years, done research for many
more.  I have participated in living history events and many personas
over that period.  I have always felt that a comfortable group of
scholars that can interact and learn as well as enjoy themselves makes
for a more cohesive group and one that can really get to the source and
share information in a fun and entertaining way.  I'm sure that
mountainmen and women didn't spend all their time doing business at
their gatherings.

Sorry if we have offended you!

john c. funk,jr wrote:

>  Dean, First, let me thank you, again, for your efforts to establish a
> historical forum in which some of us have gained much valuable
> information.  I for one, truly appreciate your web site and what it
> potentially offers.Having said that, it appears that the site has
> turned into a "chat" line for those who wish to exchange jokes, snide
> remarks and other assorted drivel, none of which is of any value to
> those of us who originally subscribed and who remain in the shadows
> waiting to pounce on anything resembling  a pertinent, Fur Trade Era,
> exchange of historical information.  During the "early years" of this
> site there were some vibrant exchanges of real historical data which
> prompted  us to head for the books and do some research to either add
> to or (cordially) dispute various assertions.  That atmosphere appears
> to be suffering a rapid death.I am wondering if there any way a
> monthly admonishment, for lack of a better term, could be
> automatically posted on the site which reiterates the principal under
> which the site was originally established?I know you've done a lot for
> the site and I apologize for hanging this on you, but I for one have
> about had it with some of this B.S. and I know of a couple of others
> who have a wealth of potential valuable information to share who have
> really been done in by the superfluous trivia that now exists on the
> site.  It would be a shame to loose what you originally established
> and which broadened the knowledge of us all concerning the enchanting
> era of the Fur Trade.Yr. Obdnt. Srvnt.John Funk



--------------22BFED09CB88E3DA4AEEBC5B
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
<BODY BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF">
John,

<P>I have taught American history for many years, done research for many
more.  I have participated in living history events and many personas
over that period.  I have always felt that a comfortable group of
scholars that can interact and learn as well as enjoy themselves makes
for a more cohesive group and one that can really get to the source and
share information in a fun and entertaining way.  I'm sure that mountainmen
and women didn't spend all their time doing business at their gatherings.

<P>Sorry if we have offended you!

<P>john c. funk,jr wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE> <FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>Dean,</FONT></FONT> <FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>First,
let me thank you, again, for your efforts to establish a historical forum
in which some of us have gained much valuable information.  I for
one, truly appreciate your web site and what it potentially offers.</FONT></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>Having
said that, it appears that the site has turned into a "chat" line for those
who wish to exchange jokes, snide remarks and other assorted drivel, none
of which is of any value to those of us who originally subscribed and who
remain in the shadows waiting to pounce on anything resembling  a
pertinent, Fur Trade Era,  exchange of historical information.
During the "early years" of this site there were some vibrant exchanges
of real historical data which prompted  us to head for the books and
do some research to either add to or (cordially) dispute various assertions.
That atmosphere appears to be suffering a rapid death.</FONT></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>I
am wondering if there any way a monthly admonishment, for lack of a better
term, could be automatically posted on the site which reiterates the principal
under which the site was originally established?</FONT></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>I
know you've done a lot for the site and I apologize for hanging this on
you, but I for one have about had it with some of this B.S. and I know
of a couple of others who have a wealth of potential valuable information
to share who have really been done in by the superfluous trivia that now
exists on the site.  It would be a shame to loose what you originally
established  and which broadened the knowledge of us all concerning
the enchanting era of the Fur Trade.</FONT></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>Yr.
Obdnt. Srvnt.</FONT></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>John Funk</FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>

</BODY>
</HTML>

--------------22BFED09CB88E3DA4AEEBC5B--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ron and Gayle Harris" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: LUBE
Date: 17 Mar 1999 22:58:18 -0600

I use  larry"s, lube and think it works really well.
Dennis, Just shut upand don't even go there.)
ron
-----Original Message-----


>Hawk,
>  Good to hear from you.  The piece on the patch lube was very interesting.
> I have used them all.  Some fairly successfully, but most not.  I could
>never figure out why you would want to use camphor or wintergreen in a
>patch lube that you would use when hunting.  I to make and sell a patch
>lube.  I sell it locally, although I have advertised it in a magazine.  I
>became quite discouraged by the outrageous claims made by the large
>companies.  Also there is no way a guy working out of his house can compete
>with the ad budgets of those guys.  The claims that are made by national
>brand lube companies are so outlandish it is unreal, and yet the vast
>majority of black powder shooters buy it hook line and sinker.
>  The other fellow Tim Austin was refering to is Gene High.  Gene and I are
>in the same area, and are friendly competitors.
>Pendleton
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:27:03 -0800
Date: 17 Mar 1999 23:46:23 EST

Well said John! That gets my vote.

Todd Glover



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "landis" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fw:
Date: 17 Mar 1999 20:57:05 -0800

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-----Original Message-----
[e-mail]>>



-----Original Message-----
[e-mail]>>


    How Do!
I just wanted to say thank you to fellow mlml people who attended the =
show on March 13 and 14.I had a very good time for my first show.All the =
people there were
great and the fry bread was excellent! Thanks to my brother for getting =
me involved
in exploring a part of my long lost but not forgotten history, plus he =
bought me a trade knife for my b-day!Thanks again to all.                =
        Adam

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
</B>landis <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B=
>To:=20
</B>mountain men <hist <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>> <mountain =
men=20
<hist <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>>><BR><B>Dat=
e:=20
</B>Wednesday, March 17, 1999 7:37 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Fw:=20
<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
</B>landis <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B=
>To:=20
</B>mountain men <hist <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>> <mountain =
men=20
<hist <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>>><BR><B>Dat=
e:=20
</B>Tuesday, March 16, 1999 6:04 PM<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>    <FONT =
color=3D#000000>How=20
Do!</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><FONT color=3D#000000>I just wanted =
to say thank=20
you to fellow mlml people who attended the show on March 13 and 14.I had =
a very=20
good time for my first show.All the people there =
were</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><FONT color=3D#000000>great and the =
fry bread was=20
excellent! Thanks to my brother for getting me =
involved</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><FONT color=3D#000000>in exploring a =
part of my=20
long lost but not forgotten history, plus he bought me a trade knife for =
my=20
b-day!Thanks again to=20
all.           &nb=
sp;           =20
Adam</FONT></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0031_01BE70B8.B71EE060--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Butch <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Gathering of Women
Date: 17 Mar 1999 21:02:50 -0800

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> No What did the Indian women do to white men

    Are you *sure* you want to know?  This knowledge may cause you to try to
walk with your legs crossed for some time.

    Butch



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Roy Parker)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Gathering of Women
Date: 18 Mar 1999 05:15:36 GMT

Uhh, you're not the Barbara originally from Tejas, who up and deserted
us T.A.B.-ers a few years back for the north country, are ya?  Gale
Harris (she and Ron post here occasionally) is now the head of the
North Chapter of the Hanta Youin, the local ladies buckskinner group
may well be worth contacting for some ideas.  Some of the things
they've done in way of retribution to menfolk crashin' their doins is
pretty intimidating.


On Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:02:05 -0800, you wrote:

>Pat,
>The one in 1996 was held on Mt. Rainier in Washington. Where are you
>located?
>
>As for men sneaking in, I heard that a flatlander out hiking happened to
>stumble upon the camp.  It was a hot July day, and the gals was all just
>traipsing about in chemises, some of them wet from swimming.  Margaret
>said he nearly had a heart attack!  Don't think sentries would be
>necessary, we'd just scare 'em to death!  I told Margaret we ought to
>let in any man who'se willing to cross-dress female, and abide by our
>Mountain Women Rules.  (We're working on those rules.  Think something
>like full-body shaving with a straight razor might be in order.)
>
>On another note, the lube discussion is very interesting.  I'd love to
>know more about this all-natural lube Kinjano has.  Thank you much for
>posting all the information about the various brands out there, Hawk.
>I'm a bit confused, though.  Was that YOUR speech, or did you raid that
>from somewhere? Anyway, bottom line, are you recommending I use my
>"Natural Ice Mentholated Lipbalm (SPF 14)"  for patch lube, or are you
>telling me that I'm gonna get asphalt build up in my rifle if I do?
>
>AND, does anyone have a source of historic documentation as to the
>contents of patch lube used in the early 19th century?  I'm not against
>making my own, if that's a better solution.  God knows I've got plenty
>of chapstick!  If there's a recipe to be had, someone please share it.
>
>Yer Most Disobedient Servant,
>-Barbara, aka Tassee, Ticky Eena, and Miss Letitia Work
>
>

Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including =
"BS".
1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Roy Parker)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: prices of goods in st.louis around 1800
Date: 18 Mar 1999 05:20:53 GMT

Muffin takes a can of worms in hand, and promptly opens them....


Traphand, I don't have a real good reply for you.  I _think_ Ft. Clark
is a rename/nickname of Kaskaskia due to Clark's capturing of the
town.  I don't know where I read this, just sticks in my mind, and
only post this because I saw no other response to your request.  I do
not claim to be right.

May I suggest you also post your request for more info on the
moderated newsgroup soc.history.war.us-revolution on Usenet?  A few of
the folks who follow that group seem to be very knowlegable in their
comments and are willing to cite references for their
statements/conclusions. =20

I've only lurked on the group for 2-3 weeks.  But this may well be a
very good source of info, especially for those more interested in the
Rev War/Longhunter era.  The charter of the group (I'm quoting from
memory-pull the charter for exact phrasing)  states they will consider
for discussion topics/issues from the early 1700s through the 1860's
so long as part of/main thrust has bearing on the Revolutionary
period. =20

(There is also a newsgroup called soc.history.war.us-civilwar which I
have been lurking for references to the later part of the fur trade,
but so far nothing of interest.)


Best wishes.

On Sun, 14 Mar 1999 00:09:57 EST, you wrote:

>doing a paper on what it was like in st.louis around the early 1800. I'm=
 still
>looking=20
>for account books from general stores,blacksmiths,bill of lading from
>keelboats and est,I have some but others also would be helpful.timewise =
would
>be from 1785to 1820.anyone every hear of a town in missouri called New =
Diggers
>in 1813.Also anyone every hear of fort clark in kaskaskia ill.year would=
 be
>1779.I got what is on the amm list already.
>
>
>                                     thank you
>                                  rick petzoldt
>
>[e-mail]
>

Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including =
"BS".
1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:27:03 -0800
Date: 18 Mar 1999 00:56:38 EST

John C. Funk, Jr.

You are a bold man, my friend.  While I totally agree with your comments, I
don't have the heart to receive the flaming you will get.  You on the other
hand, have two hearts.  Good thing!

Jim Hardee, AMM#1676
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA  95971
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)
[phone] FAX
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: tigrbo1 <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin ware
Date: 18 Mar 1999 00:57:33 -0800

Greetings TrapRJoe,

    The only way I've seen to keep your tin ware from rusting is to have your
cups, boilers, canteen and such made of tin lined copper, like I did.

Best regards,
Terry

[e-mail] wrote:

>      This list has told us how to take care of our castiron so it won't rust
> while we're out, but how about Tin ware.   How do you keep it from becoming a
> heap of rust?






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Gathering of Women
Date: 18 Mar 1999 08:54:33 EST

In a message dated 99-03-17 23:03:13 EST, you write:

<< I'd love to
 know more about this all-natural lube Kinjano has. >>

Barb......... you must have me confused with someone else......... to date i
have only posted about the dugout cabin/shelter and our women's rendezvous
over here in n.w. ohio........... the lube is someonelse's discussion........

kinjano
(a.k.a. scary mary)



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: MtMan-List: Discussions
Date: 18 Mar 1999 08:51:48 -0700

Gentlemen and Ladies,
John's point was not made to offend anyone, period. It becomes rather
monotonous to see one line statements about Texas, or any other State. A
joke or two pertaining to history is funny now and then a quip or two is
great, but receiving 25 messages that are just chats get old. Save it for
the campfire or send it personal. This has developed into a close knit
group because of subject matter. Ask questions, provide answers, (thought
out one's) Share club news, point out living history events, advertize
quality historical items you may have or know where to find, debate
questionable historical events or items, but please know when enough chit
chat is enough. I believe if you got something important to say, say it,
otherwise just listen.
Thank you
Joe Brandl

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Brian McNutt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: What was this book?????
Date: 18 Mar 1999 11:49:03 -0600

As a wide eyed young un, I read a book, possibly by an European, about two
Trappers. One of the trappers got married at the book's end, and the writer
put himself in the book; he called himself "Two Shoots." I checked my local
library, but it wasn't there. Any help would be appreciated!

Brian






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Matthew Hawley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canadian Cap & rabiit fur
Date: 18 Mar 1999 11:25:50 PST

I don't know about the hat company. but the rabbit fur in moccasins i
do. With the on set of winter the indians started making winter clothes
so in order to keep warm they wanted fur. now rabbot fur is warm thick
and very soft so they would make rabbit lined mocs or blankets or mitts
to keep warm. hope this answears your ? ?

                                                                  White
eagle



>From: "Ron Chamberlain" <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: "Mt Man list" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: MtMan-List: Canadian Cap & rabiit fur
>Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:35:52 -0700
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>From [e-mail] Wed Mar 17 18:51:14 1999
>Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1)id
10NSss-0004gR-00for [e-mail]; Wed, 17 Mar 1999
19:50:10 -0700
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with smtp (Exim 2.05 #1)id 10NSsp-0004gM-00for
[e-mail]; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:50:07 -0700
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-0000
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mail.ida.net with SMTP; 18 Mar 1999 02:50:06 -0000
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>X-Priority: 3
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>Precedence: bulk
>
>Hello,
>
>Can anybody document the Canadian Cap during the Rcky Mt fur trade,
>particularily late 1830's?
>Was also wondering about use of rabbit fur for moccasin liners (socks).
>
>Thanks,
>YMOS
>Lonewolf
>
>
>

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Austin, Tim" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: rabbit fur
Date: 18 Mar 1999 13:31:52 -0600

Good information on the rabbit fur for the moccasins.  What is the source?
I know several of the mountain men used buffalo fur to make moccasins, and a
trip of Indians in the west that made blankets of rabbit hides with fur
still on.

Thank you.

Tim Austin



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Butch <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit fur
Date: 18 Mar 1999 12:42:33 -0800

Austin, Tim wrote:
>
> Good information on the rabbit fur for the moccasins.  What is the source?
> I know several of the mountain men used buffalo fur to make moccasins, and a
> trip of Indians in the west that made blankets of rabbit hides with fur
> still on.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Tim Austin


    Rabbit skin blankets are very warm, but I'd recommend you put the blanket
inside an envelope of cloth, etc.  Rabbit skin with the fur on sheds
something awful.  Good way to wake up with a big old mouthful of rabbit
fur.

    These were used as baby blankets,too, IIRC.

    Butch



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: RANDAL J BUBLITZ <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What was this book?????
Date: 18 Mar 1999 15:42:15 -0800

Brian,  I believe that the book that you are looking for is entitled 'The
Rifleman' by John Brick.  The copy which I have is  copyright 1953, By
Doubleday  & Co. , Inc., Garden City, NY  .  It was given to me by a good
friend.  It's a good read.  Hardtack



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Picture page
Date: 18 Mar 1999 18:51:34 -0500

I have added a "List Only" page to my Ronnyvous site....

Anyone not having access to a web page and wanting to forward me pictures to
post in it for others to view, send them to me and I will put them on the
site.  Be sure to send them in JPG format.... this is the smallest
graphic...  Be sure to send a caption with it or what ever you want said ith
it...

The address is:  www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/3216/HistList.htm
(nothing there yet.)

Addison Miller





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re:
Date: 18 Mar 1999 18:14:52 -0600



>
> >Having said that, it appears that the site has turned into a "chat" line =
> >for those who wish to exchange jokes, snide remarks and other assorted =
> >drivel, none of which is of any value to those of us who originally =
> >subscribed and who remain in the shadows waiting to pounce on anything =
> >resembling  a pertinent, Fur Trade Era,  exchange of historical =
> >information.

Instead of whining about the content of the messages,  start a conversation
about a historical subject.  Works for me.     J.D.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:27:03 -0800
Date: 18 Mar 1999 20:26:21 EST

<< it appears that the site has turned into a "chat" line for those who wish
to exchange jokes, snide remarks and other assorted drivel, none of which is
of any value to those of us who originally subscribed and who remain in the
shadows waiting to pounce on anything resembling  a pertinent, Fur Trade Era,
exchange of historical information. >>

Amen...I too am becoming very discouraged.

Ghosting Wolf



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canadian Cap & rabiit fur
Date: 18 Mar 1999 19:21:13 -0700

Some natives may have used rabbit for linings, but I find it hard to
believe that given almost any other type of fur or hide, that rabbit would
of been used much. Wild rabbit skin are paper thin, the fur mats easily,
thus loses insulation quality, take a lot of rabbits for a blanket.
Exception were the southwestern tribes that wove blankets with rabbit
skins.
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Discussions
Date: 18 Mar 1999 18:52:01 -0800

Thank you!
I couldn't have said it better or with more grace and I _totally_ agree.

Medicine Bear

Joe Brandl wrote:

> Gentlemen and Ladies,
> John's point was not made to offend anyone, period. It becomes rather
> monotonous to see one line statements about Texas, or any other State. A
> joke or two pertaining to history is funny now and then a quip or two is
> great, but receiving 25 messages that are just chats get old. Save it for
> the campfire or send it personal. This has developed into a close knit
> group because of subject matter. Ask questions, provide answers, (thought
> out one's) Share club news, point out living history events, advertize
> quality historical items you may have or know where to find, debate
> questionable historical events or items, but please know when enough chit
> chat is enough. I believe if you got something important to say, say it,
> otherwise just listen.
> Thank you
> Joe Brandl
>
> Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
> Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
> Write for custom tanning prices
> We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
> hair on robes
> Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
> check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Discussions
Date: 18 Mar 1999 21:06:56 -0600


-----Original Message-----


>Thank you!
>I couldn't have said it better or with more grace and I _totally_ =
agree.
>
>Medicine Bear
>
>Joe Brandl wrote:
> This has developed into a close knit
>> group because of subject matter.=20

What Joe said is essentially correct.  However, I think that much of the =
close knit nature of this list is based more on friendships than subject =
matter.  And friends overlook the slight imperfections in their friends. =
 I don't seem much harm if a few people use the list in the manner =
described.  I am sincerely sorry if anybody's sensibilities are tweaked =
by this, but when I see posts from people who generally bore me I stroke =
the "delete" command and forget it.=20
Not trying to stir up any crap, just giving my opinion.
Lanney Ratcliff
>>
>> Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
>> Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
>> Write for custom tanning prices
>> We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather =
and
>> hair on robes
>> Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, =
baskets
>> check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Discussions
Date: 18 Mar 1999 21:23:56 -0600

Lanney I agree.  No doubt I am more guilty than most.  If I have offended
anyone I appologize.  I am afraid it is just my nature to B.S.  A very dear
friend of ours has the philosophy that, 'You ain't gonna get out of this
life alive so you might as well have some fun while your'e here."  I figure
if we can have some fun and learn as much about history as is possible on
this list, then we are accomplishing some thing on both points.  I will try
to keep a lid on the B.S. as much as I can in an effort to keep from
bothering the folks who don't believe that you can do both.
There are postings on the list everyday that I am not interested in.  Like
you I know what the delete button is for.
Pendleton

----------
> From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Discussions
> Date: Thursday, March 18, 1999 9:06 PM
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Thursday, March 18, 1999 8:52 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Discussions
>
>
> >Thank you!
> >I couldn't have said it better or with more grace and I _totally_ agree.
> >
> >Medicine Bear
> >
> >Joe Brandl wrote:
> > This has developed into a close knit
> >> group because of subject matter.
>
> What Joe said is essentially correct.  However, I think that much of the
close knit nature of this list is based more on friendships than subject
matter.  And friends overlook the slight imperfections in their friends.  I
don't seem much harm if a few people use the list in the manner described.
I am sincerely sorry if anybody's sensibilities are tweaked by this, but
when I see posts from people who generally bore me I stroke the "delete"
command and forget it.
> Not trying to stir up any crap, just giving my opinion.
> Lanney Ratcliff
> >>
> >> Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
> >> Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
> >> Write for custom tanning prices
> >> We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather
and
> >> hair on robes
> >> Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings,
baskets
> >> check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka
> >
> >
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Discussions
Date: 18 Mar 1999 22:48:08 -0500

Hey all...
 I may catch hell for this post down the road, well, so be it....Those what
know me, know I say what I think..
 I really love this list, along with my Brothers & Friends that are
participants. Humor has a large part of our lives, in each day and
especially at the times on the trail that it really counts... Like when a
canoe swamps with lotsa $$$$ worth a gear in it, or when you get to the end
of a trail and discover that the only way down, asides from backtracking 10
miles is a 50' hell of a first step, and you toss your partner a rope and
says.."You First"..
 Gentlemen, I don't know about y'all,( especially those that would prefer a
technically dry, humorless, impersonal list) but I prefer this to be like a
large campfire.... With folks from different locals, skill levels, and walks
of life's paths to get together and discuss and , God forbid, joke among
themselves.. Mebby share some and learn some  things...
Hell, I do each day I turn this damn thing on.... But , if ya can't have
some fun doing it, why bother??...A delete button is an easy thing to
master...(ask privately, I'll teach you how to do it)
 This list is a great asset to many people, AMM and not, and if we want to
converse occasionally or trade jabs... Why grouse??     Hell, my Dad always
told me"Keep your damn mouth shut boy, and listen between the words, ya may
learn something."

  'Nuff said.

Respectfully

Dennis Miles
AMM #1622 Hiveranno



   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: HORNS
Date: 18 Mar 1999 21:50:28 -0600

Ok guys a serious question.  Where can I get really high quality cow horns?
 I am talking about scrimshaw quality with good turns that will make Golden
Age period powder horns.
Pendleton



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: HORNS
Date: 18 Mar 1999 22:55:13 -0500

Larry..

 The Log Cabin shop sometimes has some good 'ens.. It is in Lodi, Ohio

D

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


>Ok guys a serious question.  Where can I get really high quality cow horns?
> I am talking about scrimshaw quality with good turns that will make Golden
>Age period powder horns.
>Pendleton
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Barbara Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Are there any Brothers from NC on this list?
Date: 18 Mar 1999 20:05:19 -0800

Dear Sirs,

Are there any AMM Brothers from North Carolina on this list?  I have a
dear friend who'se new to the buckskinning world and looking for
high-quality "porkeater" events to attend in that state, and I
recommended she ask the AMM.  She'd be interested in living history
sites, reenactments, rendezvous and the like.  I'd hate to send her to
anything farby or low-class though - she's a fine upstanding woman of
good character (and she cooks good, too!) and I'd hate for her to be put
off the hobby by going to a no-class event.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! :-)

Yer Most Disobedient Servant,
Tassee




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Barbara Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Kinjano
Date: 18 Mar 1999 20:23:10 -0800

Gads!  You're a GIRL?  Sorry, I just heard the tail of some
conversations 'bout Ohio, and scaring the boy, and assumed you were
male!  (Gotta show those assets...)

Anyway, I'm off to see your website, and I'm very interested in what
you're doing.  This doins' I've been describing was put on by two women
who used to belong to "Hyu Eenas" (Many Beavers), a group which
appeared to go belly up after it's ringleader high-tailed it to
Wyoming.  They had a great newsletter with all sorts of fabulous
information, and a slogan "Keep yer flour dry!" which always makes me
grin.  I got into this hobby after they'd died off, but a friend gave me
copies of their newsletters for the good information.  I BELIEVE they
were all women associated with AMM brothers in one way or another.  I'd
be interested in any women's association, but I'm not married to a
Brother, so please tell me that's not a criteria!

Also, does your group have any ties to similar women's groups elsewhere
in the country, like say, North Carolina?

Many thanks, dear lady, and sorry about the misassumption:  What  giggle
I had opening the list today!  :-)

Yer Most Disobedient Servant,
Tassee




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Horn and scrimming...
Date: 18 Mar 1999 23:29:56 -0500

I have a good horn... polished and thinned, smoothed, etc... I want to try
to do some scrimshaw on it... my first attempt.  How do I keep the ink from
getting into other cracks in the horn when I start applying it?
*chuckles*.. and before someone says it.. I know... veeerrryyy carefully...
Someone told me to use beeswax and scrim thru it, but that is a real pain in
the butt.  Any better ideas?

Addison Miller
aka Sean





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lewis Kevin Raper" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: HORNS
Date: 18 Mar 1999 23:38:11 -0500

This Is Where I get mine:
The K Company
128B Lebby St.
Pelzer S.C. 29669
Phone: [phone]
Open Tues-Sat 10AM-6PM
Tell Kay Possum Hunter Sent ya!
"No man can truly know Christ except he follow him in life" ( Testimony of
Anabaptist leader Hans Denk)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 1999 10:50 PM


>Ok guys a serious question.  Where can I get really high quality cow horns?
> I am talking about scrimshaw quality with good turns that will make Golden
>Age period powder horns.
>Pendleton
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lewis Kevin Raper" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Are there any Brothers from NC on this list?
Date: 18 Mar 1999 23:54:28 -0500

Barbara,
I ain't from North Carolina, but a good one to go to is the Muzzleloader
Enclave held at Kings Mountain State Park in South Carolina.( It is on the
good side of the North Carolina / South Carolina line) :-) Another good one
to go to is Old Timey Days in Cades Cove in Smokey Mountain National Park.
Iffin ya don't mind driving to Greenville, South Carolina, the Roper
Mountain Science Center has a real good living history farm open on some
Saturdays. The Charlestown Landing in Charleston SC is also pretty good.
I am sure there are others in North Carolina That are good, but why not come
to South Carolina and watch the pros do it?

"No man can truly know Christ except he follow him in life" ( Testimony of
Anabaptist leader Hans Denk)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 1999 11:05 PM


>Dear Sirs,
>
>Are there any AMM Brothers from North Carolina on this list?  I have a
>dear friend who'se new to the buckskinning world and looking for
>high-quality "porkeater" events to attend in that state, and I
>recommended she ask the AMM.  She'd be interested in living history
>sites, reenactments, rendezvous and the like.  I'd hate to send her to
>anything farby or low-class though - she's a fine upstanding woman of
>good character (and she cooks good, too!) and I'd hate for her to be put
>off the hobby by going to a no-class event.
>
>Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! :-)
>
>Yer Most Disobedient Servant,
>Tassee
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mike Rock <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #260
Date: 18 Mar 1999 23:00:26 -0600

Parker query: Kaskaskia/Ft. Clark.  M.M.Quaife in his 1913 book,
Chicago and the Old Northwest,1673-1835.  Quaife has many good
references to forts and players.  Kaskaskia, its taking by the Hannibal
of Kentucky (which was a county of Virginia) Clark, and its history are
fully covered.  Later (1814) Forsyth is pleading the case for a Factory
at Ft. Clark, so the Pottawatomies can receive goods "as cheap in this
was as they formerly did in the factory at Chicago". They were bemoaning
the high prices at the sutler's store.

This is an excellent text in some ways, and the fact that the map shows
many forts and settlements and pointedly does not show Fort Clark in
relationship to Kaskaskia may or may not shed light.

I'll deep diggin.

I hear they give cowboys in Texas enemas so's they can bury 'em in shoe
boxes.

Rock




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Discussions
Date: 18 Mar 1999 21:17:07 -0800

Come on guys, let's not take things to extremes!  NOBODY ever said that humor
wasn't allowed.
There is a BIG difference between occasional jokes and remarks that we all enjoy
and have participated in and DOZENS of consecutive postings slamming Texans/Non
Texans!
After the first couple go arounds, those who wanted to continue the fun should
have simply replied directly to one another and respected the overall intention
of the list and it's originator.  No big deal.
Now come on over to the fire and get another cup of shrub!  What's in this stuff
anyway?

MB


Dennis Miles wrote:.

>  Gentlemen, I don't know about y'all,( especially those that would prefer a

> technically dry, humorless, impersonal list)

Larry Pendleton wrote:

I will tryto keep a lid on the B.S. as much as I can in an effort to keep from
bothering the folks who don't believe that you can do both.





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube
Date: 19 Mar 1999 00:34:16 -0500

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> Fred,
>
> I am also wondering what kind of lube your are talking about.  I am looking
> for a lube that is not store bought but rather made.  I am kind of
> simplifying the shooting by just buying tickling for patches not the pre cut
> and would like a good lube also.

Our lube's ingredients were available back in the 1700's, but were never
combined into a lube.  The whole project came about because, like you and many
others, a buddy of mine and I wanted a much better lube than what was/is
avilable from commercial makers and also the known home brews, and we wanted it
to be period correct.

It took almost 2 full years of work before we finally refined the process and
formula to where it is now.  At first, we wern't going to even market the stuff,
as we had it for ourselves, and could shoot all day without cleaning, yet had
GREAT accuracy. We had what we had wanted.  Then we gave some of it away to a
few friends....BIG mistake.  They all hounded us till we did make it avilable.
We presently make 2 "flavors" of it...a patch lube and a bullet lube....2
different formulas.  We're now working on a lube for BP ctg.  Like any other
product, I'm sure millage will vary from shooter to shooter, but so far, we've
had VERY good reports.

Fred

--
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
http://www.cap-n-ball.com/thunder/



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Roy Parker)
Subject: Shrub--was Re: MtMan-List: Discussions
Date: 19 Mar 1999 05:33:13 GMT

On Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:17:07 -0800, you wrote:

>Now come on over to the fire and get another cup of shrub!  What's in =
this stuff
>anyway?
>
>MB
Glad you asked.  One quart of rum, the juice from 3 oranges and 3
lemons, and the zest of the oranges and lemons.  No pulp, and NONE of
the white fiber under the zests!  Let the elixer percolate overthe
zests for 2-3 days, add a pint of water, and sugar to taste.  Recipe
came from a Virgina almanac back around 1750 via Jerry Young aka
Yellowfoot.


Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including =
"BS".
1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube
Date: 19 Mar 1999 00:41:23 -0500

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> fred what kind of lube are you talking about---go offline and give me
> some more info---
>
> "HAWK"
> Michael pierce
> 854 Glenfield Dr.
> Palm Harbor Florida  34684
> E-mail:   [e-mail]

Go to to site below and take a look.

Best,

Fred

--
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
http://www.cap-n-ball.com/thunder/



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:27:03 -0800
Date: 19 Mar 1999 00:50:22 -0500

Pat Laughlin wrote:
>
> John,
>
> I have taught American history for many years, done research for many more.  I
> have participated in living history events and many personas over that
> period.  I have always felt that a comfortable group of scholars that can
> interact and learn as well as enjoy themselves makes for a more cohesive group
> and one that can really get to the source and share information in a fun and
> entertaining way.  I'm sure that mountainmen and women didn't spend all their
> time doing business at their gatherings.

Pat, as an aside to you and anyone else using anything else but a PLAIN TEXT
settings in their mailer, it's considered rude on the net.  The default settings
for all MS mailers and Netscape is HTML, "rich text," etc.  The setting should
be "plain text," as some members will have problems with anything else.

Fred

--
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
http://www.cap-n-ball.com/thunder/



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Discussions
Date: 19 Mar 1999 00:49:14 EST

The delete button is not the best answer.  It would be easy to just delete
post from those we know are always adding in the chit chat part some of us
would like to avoid.  The problem is those folks are typically the most vocal
and often add items of varying degree of interest, even if not always
documented.  It gives us a place to start our own research.  If we just
"delete" we don't solve the problem.

Here's a suggestion, although it requires a bit of effort on the part of the
"chatters."  Add an asterisk to the thread line.  That way, we'll know there
is nothing really pertaining to the thread in the post, just "chatter."

Another suggestion was made a while back that also makes some sense.  If the
post is to an individual, make it direct to that person rather than through
the list.  This suggestion apparetnly wasn't well received then, so probably
won't be now.  Maybe becasue it takes even more effort than adding a code to
the thread line.

Jim Hardee, AMM#1676



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Discussions
Date: 18 Mar 1999 21:48:56 -0800



Frank wrote:

> .
> Now come on over to the fire and get another cup of shrub!  What's in this stuff
> anyway?
>
> MB

Berry juice, brown sugar and (I think) vinegar. From that humble start it goes down
hill depending on what spirituous liquor you add. Capt. Morgan's Spiced Rum will
make it a drink fit for Kings. Anything else is just using up what can't be drunk
otherwise. I remain.......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gaucher (Left Hand) Arikara
Date: 19 Mar 1999 00:49:19 EST

Several Indians with the name "Left Hand" or some derivation thereof crop up
in fur trade history.  "Gauche" is French for "Left."  Le Gauche, Gocher, etc.
are all attempts at a French rendition of the name.

I find only one who was Arikara and the notations are from early in the
period, about 1810-20.  If you have access to Reuben Thwaites "Early Western
Travels" series, check vol 5, 6 and 26.  Vol 5 is "Travels in the Interior of
America" by naturalist John Bradbury.  He traveled up the Missouri with Wilson
Price Hunt's Pacific Fur Company overalnd expedition.  On June 12, 1811,
Bradbury introduced Le Gauche.  (page  128-132)

Vol 6 is the journal of Henry Brackenridge, also a naturalist.  Brackenridge
went up the Big Muddy with Manuel Lisa and the Missouri Fur Co.  On June 11,
1811, his party meets the Left Handed.  (page 111-113)

Stephen Long's expedition is in Vol. 14.  On April 6, 1820, they meet Naugh-
ken-ne or the Left Hand.  (page 286)  Long describes him as an Omawhaw so this
may not be the same person.  The fourth Flathead deputation to travel to St.
Louis in search of the white man's religion included Pierre the Left-handed
(Gaucher). He was an Iroquois, or part Iroquois, who went to live among the
Flatheads as a trapper around 1816.  There was also Left-handed Gocia, an
Indian trapper with Capt. Thing out of Fort Hall in 1835. And there was a
southern Arapaho chief named Left Hand, or Niwot, in the 1820-40 period.
(Margaret Coel wrote a book about him "Chief Left Hand: Southern Arapaho."
University of Oklahoma Press 1981)

Perhaps this will get you started.  If you want more info or photocopies of
the pages above, contact me off-line.

Jim Hardee, AMM#1676





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn and scrimming...
Date: 18 Mar 1999 21:54:43 -0800



sean wrote:
 How do I keep the ink from getting into other cracks in the horn when I start
applying it?

> Addison Miller
> aka Sean

Sean,

I always just painted the stuff on once the cuts were made where I wanted them.
I would then polish off the extra ink with very fine steel wool and then finish
by repolishing the horn to the luster I wanted. Lots of horn makers out there
that may do it different. I don't remember having any problems with other
"cracks". I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Discussions
Date: 19 Mar 1999 06:54:55 -0500

Medicine Bear Wrote:

<<NOBODY ever said that humor wasn't allowed.>>


MB,
 Unfortunately, someone DID suggest this fact to me in a private post. And
being one of the occasional "chatters", I thought about it for awhile and
decided to post my response. There are those out there that do not, under
ANY circumstances want anything except the "technically dry, impersonal,
humorless list", that I mentioned before. There are a couple on every list.
Fortunately, they are far and few in between.  That is why I wrote what I
did, and I stand by it.
D

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Vickie Nielsen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Discussions
Date: 19 Mar 1999 06:20:06 -0700

good comments, however, I would appreciate it if you could send me the address
for
removing myself from the list. When you you belong to several there just isn't
time for
all that reading and deleting. Thanks

[e-mail] wrote:

> The delete button is not the best answer.  It would be easy to just delete
> post from those we know are always adding in the chit chat part some of us
> would like to avoid.  The problem is those folks are typically the most vocal
> and often add items of varying degree of interest, even if not always
> documented.  It gives us a place to start our own research.  If we just
> "delete" we don't solve the problem.
>
> Here's a suggestion, although it requires a bit of effort on the part of the
> "chatters."  Add an asterisk to the thread line.  That way, we'll know there
> is nothing really pertaining to the thread in the post, just "chatter."
>
> Another suggestion was made a while back that also makes some sense.  If the
> post is to an individual, make it direct to that person rather than through
> the list.  This suggestion apparetnly wasn't well received then, so probably
> won't be now.  Maybe becasue it takes even more effort than adding a code to
> the thread line.
>
> Jim Hardee, AMM#1676






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canadian Cap & rabiit fur
Date: 19 Mar 1999 07:39:39 -0700

"Matthew Hawley" <[e-mail]> wrote:

>>I don't know about the hat company. but the rabbit fur in moccasins i
do. With the on set of winter the indians started making winter clothes
so in order to keep warm they wanted fur. now rabbot fur is warm thick
and very soft so they would make rabbit lined mocs or blankets or mitts
to keep warm.<<

In my reading of Canadian fur trade journals, 1774-1821, I've never found
any mention of rabbit fur-lined moccasins. Instead, warmer moccasins were
made from bison tanned with the hair on, and the hair turned to the inside
(like sheepskin slippers). On the other hand, I _have_ found rabbit
fur-lined mittens mentioned on two different occasions (if you want the
references, just ask). The blankets, of course, were trade blankets, buffalo
robes, or blankets woven from strips of rabbit fur. I saw one of these
blankets at Old Fort William last summer, and it was heavy and likely very warm.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gaucher (Left Hand) Arikara
Date: 19 Mar 1999 08:08:29 -0700



I think there is a mention of a Left Hand in Garrards' "Wah-to-Yah"...some sort
of bad guy chief either arapaho or camanche.





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canadian Cap & rabiit fur
Date: 19 Mar 1999 09:10:18 -0700

Angela,
I would like the source on mittens
Thanking you in advance
Joe Brandl

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube
Date: 19 Mar 1999 11:25:22 EST

fred you didn't give any details except that you had worked for two years
on it--what is it's base and what makes it so good and easy to load and
shoot with---send more info and what do you get for a sample of
it---always looking for a better mouse trap---"my grizzley snot" or "ol
grizz"  is very similar to the old black solve that was sold back in the
60's except that I use burning silica--a disbursing agent for  systems to
keep  oils and other liquids from frothing when areated--it also uses all
 bio-degradable stuff so that there is no residue in the barrel---I add
some alcahol so that it wont freeze in the winter.

what makes your lube so good and wonderful--I dont put anything in the
barrel of my gun that I dont know what it is and what it will do---will
be glad to send you a sample of mine for a sample of yours---

"HAWK"
Michael pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor Florida  34684
E-mail:   [e-mail]

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn and scrimming...
Date: 19 Mar 1999 11:25:24 EST

On Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:29:56 -0500 "sean" <[e-mail]> writes:
>  How do I keep the ink from getting into other cracks in the horn when
I start applying it?

>Addison Miller
>aka Sean

Addison---I had the same problem for several years and a friend that does
a lot of scratching explained to me how to get around it---he explained
to me that I wasn't getting the horn smooth enough before i started to
scratch on it---you would think that when you buff out the horn it would
be smooth enough to scratch on but in reality it isnt---

sand your horn down the same as you normally would going to 600 wet or
dry paper--buff the horn using the white ruge then go to the red --the
horn is going to seem like it is real slick and smooth--not true---get
out your car rubbing compound-- the white or extra fine--rub a small
amount in the palm or heal of your hand now sit down and watch television
or listen to your favorite tunes and start rubbing only using the palm of
your hand--will take a few hrs so dont get in a hurry--take a 5 or 10
power glass and look close at your horn if you can see any marks then you
dont have it smooth enough to scratch on---any mark or inperfection will
hold the ink---the old whalers that usto scratch on the whales teeth did
the same thing-- the palm of your hand is a natural abrasive and will
slick it out real well especially with a little extra fine rubbing
compound or pumice added---remember---any mark will hold ink---got to be
slick and smooth---takes me about two or three nights of watching tv and
rubbing to get one to a point that i can scratch on it or have it ready
for someone to scratch on---remember quality takes time---dont get in a
hurry---and use the glass to look for the marks---you are going to be
real suprized when you look at the horn after you have buffed it---marks
will still be there---the old palm of the hand will slick it out real
well---after you get it scratched to your likeing---get some stuff called
"old bones" it is a stain for bone and horn--rub on a light coat and then
rub it all off---will give the horn an age patina to it. can also use
walnut hulls but it is hard to get off of your hands---

mister powder horn himself---"carl wilborn " at friendship was the one
that explained the facts of life to me about horns and how to slick them
out.  it works for me ---hope i have been of some help to you---

YMHOSANT

   =+=
"HAWK"
Michael pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor Florida  34684
E-mail:   [e-mail]

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: HORNS
Date: 19 Mar 1999 11:25:21 EST


On Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:50:28 -0600 "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
writes:
  Where can I get really high quality cow
>horns?
> I am talking about scrimshaw quality with good turns that will make
>Golden
>Age period powder horns.
>Pendleton

larry  for several yeard have ordered horns from

 Karl Wilburn
5073 townsley Road
cederville, Ohio 45314
Phone # [phone])

all of his horns are of high quality you need to call him and tell him
what you want-- all his horns come with turned and fitted maple
plugs---BTW he is also the major supplier to dixie and other large
suppliers---hell of a nice guy and his daughter does some wonderful
scratching on the horns---he also furnishes them in sets for
flinters---had black tip and brown tips and aldo thick enough to carve if
you wish--he pre-drills the hole in the end and furnishes a turned
plug---darn good price also---check him out---I met him at friendship
back in the 60's and he aint getting any younger but his horns are
something he takes a lot of pride in---

YMHOSANT
    =+=
"HAWK"
Michael pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor Florida  34684
E-mail:   [e-mail]

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Laughlin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:27:03 -0800
Date: 19 Mar 1999 08:29:53 -0800

Thanks Fred,   I'm sure that you know that you can send it in both html and plain
text at the same.  It will arrive in the format that you use.

Fred A. Miller wrote:

> Pat Laughlin wrote:
> >
> > John,
> >
> > I have taught American history for many years, done research for many more.  I
> > have participated in living history events and many personas over that
> > period.  I have always felt that a comfortable group of scholars that can
> > interact and learn as well as enjoy themselves makes for a more cohesive group
> > and one that can really get to the source and share information in a fun and
> > entertaining way.  I'm sure that mountainmen and women didn't spend all their
> > time doing business at their gatherings.
>
> Pat, as an aside to you and anyone else using anything else but a PLAIN TEXT
> settings in their mailer, it's considered rude on the net.  The default settings
> for all MS mailers and Netscape is HTML, "rich text," etc.  The setting should
> be "plain text," as some members will have problems with anything else.
>
> Fred
>
> --
> "Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
> http://www.cap-n-ball.com/thunder/






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Message Protocol
Date: 19 Mar 1999 10:23:19 -0800

Various topics of "netiquette" arise from time to time, and we can all use a
refresher.

1. PLEASE use your Subject line. Fred's otherwise helpful hint:
<< as an aside to you and anyone else using anything else but a PLAIN TEXT
settings in their mailer, it's considered rude on the net.  The default
settings
for all MS mailers and Netscape is HTML, "rich text," etc.  The setting
should
be "plain text," as some members will have problems with anything else.>>
was posted under the unhelpful auto-subject:
<<Re: MtMan-List: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:27:03 -0800>>.
Hopefully all Email programs allow you to simply type in an appropriate
subject, as I have done on this posting. Using the subject line
intelligently would erase at least 80% of the objections posted by those not
wishing to follow long threads of banter etc.

2. Fred's reminder about "plain text" caused me to look for the first time
in my MS Outlook Format menu, and there WAS a check box for plain text, but
only during "Reply". I can't find it during "New Message". I would value
comments about the appearance of my postings.

3. Pursuant to this, I use a very minimalist set of formatting rules for
Email postings, because I have seen the "hash" made by the command marks for
bold face, underscore, new fonts, and other common modes of emphasis used in
"richer" text formats. I use only one size and font type throughout the
message. I use CAPITALS for emphasis (observing the basic precaution of
never typing in all capitals AS IT LOOKS LIKE I'M SHOUTING). Also note how I
have spaced these paragraphs with an extra line for easier reading. I assume
all readers have noticed that the internet seems to add "hard returns" as
the end of each line, which can mess up the appearance of a posting unless
you make your Email window wide enough to accept these lines of text without
"autoreturns".

4. Reading the objections about long banter threads reminds me that I'm
spoiled by having a full-function Email system here at my office. We have
Microsoft Outlook (which is no more bloated and unreliable than other MS
products) which does have some helpful features. The main one is, my
internet Email arrives on my screen just like interoffice Email, and I can
arrange my settings so that once I've started to read a long string of new
postings, a single click will either close or delete the current message and
open the next. This way, I can "delete" my way through a backup of postings
as fast as I can skim their contents. Therefore, I am not greatly bothered
by the long strings of friendly chat. HOWEVER: I remember the days of having
to log onto Compuserve, "you've got mail", having to wait for interminable
downloads, and finally being able to read messages. If I was still getting
my postings this way, I would be a lot more bothered by numerous, short
comments, especially without good Subject lines.

5. So, as long as I keep this in mind, it will be easy to remember the value
of using my Subject line, and keeping my comments reasonably pertinent,
without completely turning to dust. We have to occasionally THINK about how
we use our computer tools. LOOK at those menus once in a while --- they're
there to be used.

Humbly submitted

Patrick Quilter.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Susan Gilbert" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Discussions
Date: 19 Mar 1999 19:06:09 -0600 (CST)

 Dennis said:
> Gentlemen, I don't know about y'all,( especially those that would prefer a
>technically dry, humorless, impersonal list) but I prefer this to be like a
>large campfire.... With folks from different locals, skill levels, and walks
>of life's paths to get together and discuss and , God forbid, joke among
>themselves.. Mebby share some and learn some  things...

I agree with Dennis and the others who fell on this side of the discussion.  I don't post
much as I'm a beginner and don't feel I have much to add, but I read everything that is
posted here, as I have much to learn.  I enjoy all the serious discussion, but the jokes
and nonsense makes me feel like I know you all sorta kinda.  It helps us beginners feel
we can ask questions of friendly aquaintences, and not a bunch of faceless experts who
will make fun of us.
I would really miss the occasional  "row and ruction" that happens here.  It's one of the
reasons I hang out here.

my 2 pence,

Old Hands

Sue Gilbert
[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Discussions
Date: 19 Mar 1999 20:17:44 -0500



> Dennis said:
>> Gentlemen, I don't know about y'all,( especially those that would prefer
a
>>technically dry, humorless, impersonal list) but I prefer this to be like
a
>>large campfire.... With folks from different locals, skill levels, and
walks
>>of life's paths to get together and discuss and , God forbid, joke among
>>themselves.. Mebby share some and learn some  things...
>
I have to add my 2 beaver worth here.... darn it.. I tried to keep quiet...
honest I did.

Even after 9 years of skinnin, I still feel like a Tenderfoot... done
gradiated from Greenhorn... and I thoroughly do enjoy the topics here.
Butthe banter and jokes and asides are great too.  Its called HUMOR... and
we need a little of this in our lives.  I own a Real Estate company in
southwest Florida, and deal with jerks and idiots constantly.  Buckskinnin
is our sanity bteaks.  My wife is the Director of Marketing.  I enjoy the
humor and banter here... and after all, if someone doesn't like to read
it... there is alwats a DELETE button...  I look on this List as an extended
family and it truly upsets me to see bickering going on.

Now... y'all kiss and make up, and play nice, or I'll tie ya to tha pole in
the middle of the camp!!!

Addison Miller
aka SeanBear





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: TYPE C FRENCH TRADE GUN
Date: 19 Mar 1999 19:39:20 -0600

When and where was the Type C French Trade Gun manufactured?  I am planning
to buy or build one later on this year.  Also were they trade by the
British traders as well?
Pendleton



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: RIFLING MACHINE
Date: 19 Mar 1999 19:49:07 -0600

Where can I get detailed drawings of a rifling machine?  Some of us have a
wild hair to build our own gun barrels.  Might want to sell one someday you
can't ever tell.
Pendleton



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: LUBE
Date: 19 Mar 1999 19:35:44 -0600

Does anyone have any hard documentation on what types of gun lube were used
during the 18th and 19th century?  Also what were their gun cleaning
methods?  I have seen very little info written on these topics.  Apparently
it was some thing that was so common no one wrote it down.
Pendleton



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: HORNS
Date: 19 Mar 1999 19:30:33 -0600

Thanks for the info on the horns.  Really good quality horns are very hard
to find here.
Pendleton



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Discussions
Date: 19 Mar 1999 20:00:20 -0600

Sean,
  Well said.  We don't do this stuff for a living.  It's supposed to be
fun, and when it ceases to be I'm through with it.
Pendleton

----------
> From: sean <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Discussions
> Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 7:17 PM
>
>
>
> > Dennis said:
> >> Gentlemen, I don't know about y'all,( especially those that would
prefer
> a
> >>technically dry, humorless, impersonal list) but I prefer this to be
like
> a
> >>large campfire.... With folks from different locals, skill levels, and
> walks
> >>of life's paths to get together and discuss and , God forbid, joke
among
> >>themselves.. Mebby share some and learn some  things...
> >
> I have to add my 2 beaver worth here.... darn it.. I tried to keep
quiet...
> honest I did.
>
> Even after 9 years of skinnin, I still feel like a Tenderfoot... done
> gradiated from Greenhorn... and I thoroughly do enjoy the topics here.
> Butthe banter and jokes and asides are great too.  Its called HUMOR...
and
> we need a little of this in our lives.  I own a Real Estate company in
> southwest Florida, and deal with jerks and idiots constantly.
Buckskinnin
> is our sanity bteaks.  My wife is the Director of Marketing.  I enjoy the
> humor and banter here... and after all, if someone doesn't like to read
> it... there is alwats a DELETE button...  I look on this List as an
extended
> family and it truly upsets me to see bickering going on.
>
> Now... y'all kiss and make up, and play nice, or I'll tie ya to tha pole
in
> the middle of the camp!!!
>
> Addison Miller
> aka SeanBear
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TYPE C FRENCH TRADE GUN
Date: 19 Mar 1999 19:11:16 -0700 (MST)




Danny Caywood does Type C's as aprt of his
Smoothebores.  If you would like his
telephone number.  Contact me off list.
he has a brochure on his Smoothebores, Finished
Gun, Kits, and IN THE WHITES

B
>
>When and where was the Type C French Trade Gun manufactured?  I am planning
>to buy or build one later on this year.  Also were they trade by the
>British traders as well?
>Pendleton
>
>
>

--
"The Price Of Freedom
     Is Not Free"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Discussions
Date: 19 Mar 1999 19:31:00 -0700

Well put Jim,  Thanks  Buck

-----Original Message-----


>The delete button is not the best answer.  It would be easy to just delete
>post from those we know are always adding in the chit chat part some of us
>would like to avoid.  The problem is those folks are typically the most
vocal
>and often add items of varying degree of interest, even if not always
>documented.  It gives us a place to start our own research.  If we just
>"delete" we don't solve the problem.
>
>Here's a suggestion, although it requires a bit of effort on the part of
the
>"chatters."  Add an asterisk to the thread line.  That way, we'll know
there
>is nothing really pertaining to the thread in the post, just "chatter."
>
>Another suggestion was made a while back that also makes some sense.  If
the
>post is to an individual, make it direct to that person rather than through
>the list.  This suggestion apparetnly wasn't well received then, so
probably
>won't be now.  Maybe becasue it takes even more effort than adding a code
to
>the thread line.
>
>Jim Hardee, AMM#1676
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Finally...a start
Date: 19 Mar 1999 21:40:26 EST

Gentlemen,

I have had to put this on the back burner since October, but have finally
gotten around to getting some coding and photograpy done.  I have tons more
stuff to put up, but it will be slow going.  Many of the links are just
placeholders for now to let you know of coming things.

http://oldfoxtraders.com

I hope we can do some business in the future.  Thanks for your consideration.

Dave Kanger



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TYPE C FRENCH TRADE GUN
Date: 19 Mar 1999 20:49:15 -0600

Thanks, Caywood is at the top of the list.  What I should have asked is,
when and where were they first manufactured?  In other words where in
France?
Pendleton

----------
> From: BRUCE S. DE LIS <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TYPE C FRENCH TRADE GUN
> Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 8:11 PM
>
>
>
>
> Danny Caywood does Type C's as aprt of his
> Smoothebores.  If you would like his
> telephone number.  Contact me off list.
> he has a brochure on his Smoothebores, Finished
> Gun, Kits, and IN THE WHITES
>
> B
> >
> >When and where was the Type C French Trade Gun manufactured?  I am
planning
> >to buy or build one later on this year.  Also were they trade by the
> >British traders as well?
> >Pendleton
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> "The Price Of Freedom
>      Is Not Free"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TYPE C FRENCH TRADE GUN
Date: 19 Mar 1999 19:53:02 -0700

For this information see:
http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html

Buck
_______________
-----Original Message-----


>Thanks, Caywood is at the top of the list.  What I should have asked is,
>when and where were they first manufactured?  In other words where in
>France?
>Pendleton
>
>----------
>> From: BRUCE S. DE LIS <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail]
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TYPE C FRENCH TRADE GUN
>> Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 8:11 PM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Danny Caywood does Type C's as aprt of his
>> Smoothebores.  If you would like his
>> telephone number.  Contact me off list.
>> he has a brochure on his Smoothebores, Finished
>> Gun, Kits, and IN THE WHITES
>>
>> B
>> >
>> >When and where was the Type C French Trade Gun manufactured?  I am
>planning
>> >to buy or build one later on this year.  Also were they trade by the
>> >British traders as well?
>> >Pendleton
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> --
>> "The Price Of Freedom
>>      Is Not Free"
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TYPE C FRENCH TRADE GUN
Date: 19 Mar 1999 21:10:13 -0600

Thanks Buck !
Pendleton

----------
> From: Barry Conner <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TYPE C FRENCH TRADE GUN
> Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 8:53 PM
>
> For this information see:
> http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html
>
> Buck
> _______________
> -----Original Message-----
> From: larry pendleton <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 7:51 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TYPE C FRENCH TRADE GUN
>
>
> >Thanks, Caywood is at the top of the list.  What I should have asked is,
> >when and where were they first manufactured?  In other words where in
> >France?
> >Pendleton
> >
> >----------
> >> From: BRUCE S. DE LIS <[e-mail]>
> >> To: [e-mail]
> >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TYPE C FRENCH TRADE GUN
> >> Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 8:11 PM
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Danny Caywood does Type C's as aprt of his
> >> Smoothebores.  If you would like his
> >> telephone number.  Contact me off list.
> >> he has a brochure on his Smoothebores, Finished
> >> Gun, Kits, and IN THE WHITES
> >>
> >> B
> >> >
> >> >When and where was the Type C French Trade Gun manufactured?  I am
> >planning
> >> >to buy or build one later on this year.  Also were they trade by the
> >> >British traders as well?
> >> >Pendleton
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> --
> >> "The Price Of Freedom
> >>      Is Not Free"
> >
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RIFLING MACHINE
Date: 19 Mar 1999 22:00:12 -0600

Check out the books "The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle"
and "The Kentucky Rifle" for photos of rifling/rouph boring machines.
In the Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle there are photographs of an old time
riflesmith using an existing rifle barrel to rifle a newly made barrel. He
used the existing barrel to get the twist from that barrel. I have a jig
that I made myself. I didn't use any plans, except for the ones in my head.
They are relatively simple in construction. The screw and the indexing block
are the most difficult parts to make. The Jig I made is patterned off of one
in a local museum.

From the northwoods,

Tony clark
-----Original Message-----


>Where can I get detailed drawings of a rifling machine?  Some of us have a
>wild hair to build our own gun barrels.  Might want to sell one someday you
>can't ever tell.
>Pendleton
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: A Matter of Training
Date: 20 Mar 1999 00:01:37 -0500

 A Matter of Training

 An old man who'd lived all his life back up in the hills came to  visit
a childhood friend.  Now he'd never laid eyes on a train or the iron
rails on which they run.

Standing in the middle of the tracks one day, he heard a distant
whistle... WOOOO-ooo---OOOOO! but didn't have a clue as to what it meant
or his impending danger.

Predictably, the old boy is hit-fortunately it's just a side swipe, and
he's thrown, head over heels off the tracks, get's off  with minor
internal injuries, a few broken bones, and some bruises.

 After weeks in the hospital recovering, he's at a friend's place for
dinner one evening  Standing in the kitchen, he hears the rising whistle
of the family tea kettle wooOOO....

Springing into action, he grabs a rolling pin and mercilessly bashes and
smashes the once merry kettle into a useless, shapeless hunk of copper.

His friend, hearing the fuss, rushes into the kitchen, sees what's
happened and asks his friend, "Why'd you wreck our lovely tea kettle?"

The mountain man replies: "Man, you gotta kill these things when they're
small."

--
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
http://www.cap-n-ball.com/thunder/



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dennis Fisher <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lube
Date: 17 Mar 1999 22:01:28 -0800

I have been shooting black powder since 1963 and have never bought any patch
lube ever.  I mostly use spit patches but have made my own patch lube so I
could prelube patched balls in my loading block.  I use a mixture of beeswax,
parafin, and lard.  You can try different proportions to suit yourself.  It
works quite well during warm weather but tends to be a little stiff in the
winter.  I use bear oil when it gets below freezing.  Anyway, I put the
combined and melted ingrediants in a 2 pound coffee can and dip strips of
patching material in it while it is melted.  I pull the soaked patching
between two tightly held pieces of an old broken ramrod to squeege off the
excess lube and lay it aside to cool.  Once cool I roll the patching up and
put it away.  On hot days when you just seem to run low on spit, this prelubed
patching works out real well.  I have never tried to see how many shots I
could do without swabing the bore but I will give it a try the next time I'm
out.  Based on what I have heard on the list lately, I may try a batch without
parafin and see how that works.

              Dennis Fisher



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Richard W. Fones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Old Mines
Date: 16 Mar 1999 18:42:01 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE6FDC.ADEF9340
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am looking for the dates for the rendezvous in Old Mines MO. I know =
it`s in May but I don`t know what weekend. Can you help me? My e-mail =
address is [e-mail] thanks Rick.

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE6FDC.ADEF9340
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#fffff0>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D4>I am looking for the =
dates for the=20
rendezvous in Old Mines MO. I know it`s in May but I don`t know what =
weekend.=20
Can you help me? My e-mail address is <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> thanks=20
Rick.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE6FDC.ADEF9340--



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Matter of Training
Date: 20 Mar 1999 00:06:21 EST





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:27:03 -0800
Date: 20 Mar 1999 00:18:21 -0500

Pat Laughlin wrote:
>
> Thanks Fred,   I'm sure that you know that you can send it in both html and plain
> text at the same.  It will arrive in the format that you use.

Pat, I can read any format...I use Linux as an OS.  Sending in BOTH formats is
even worse than HTML, as it takes up even more space on the list server!  Plain
text for newsgroups and e-lists should be just plain text.

Thanks!

Fred

----/ /  _                   Fred A. Miller
---/ /  (_)__  __ ____  __   Systems Administrator
--/ /__/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ /   Cornell Univ. Press Services
-/____/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\   [e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Matter of Training
Date: 20 Mar 1999 00:06:21 EST





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube
Date: 20 Mar 1999 00:31:29 -0500

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> fred you didn't give any details except that you had worked for two years
> on it--what is it's base and what makes it so good and easy to load and
> shoot with---send more info and what do you get for a sample of
> it---always looking for a better mouse trap---"my grizzley snot" or "ol
> grizz"  is very similar to the old black solve that was sold back in the
> 60's except that I use burning silica--a disbursing agent for  systems to
> keep  oils and other liquids from frothing when areated--it also uses all
>  bio-degradable stuff so that there is no residue in the barrel---I add
> some alcahol so that it wont freeze in the winter.
>
> what makes your lube so good and wonderful--I dont put anything in the
> barrel of my gun that I dont know what it is and what it will do---will
> be glad to send you a sample of mine for a sample of yours---

Mike, send me your smail-mail address and we'll send off a sample....don't need
your's, thanks.  A number of folks would like to know what's in it.<g>  ALL
ingredients were available in the 1700's, and nothing in it will harm a firearm.

Fred

--
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
http://www.cap-n-ball.com/thunder/



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: H&R Springfield Stalker 58 Cal.
Date: 14 Mar 1999 10:11:48 EST

Dear Sir,
I stumbled across you while surfing for information about the above mentioned
gun. I bought it sight un seen off the internet (ebay) and am very happy with
it. Only catch is there was no spec with it. So I tried to determine the rate
of twist and determined that the rate was about one in forty inches. This rate
seems strange in a production gun. My question is, Do you or anyone you know
have any information or expierience with this gun. Iwould appreciate any help.
thank you
D.Pancho Noggler
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old Mines
Date: 20 Mar 1999 00:42:11 EST

old mines is may 14 thru 16. phone number to call for more infor.is
573-438-7712.
i'm pretty sure of the date you may went to call.
                                            traphand



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Message Protocol
Date: 20 Mar 1999 00:50:10 -0500

Pat Quilter wrote:

[snip]

> 2. Fred's reminder about "plain text" caused me to look for the first time
> in my MS Outlook Format menu, and there WAS a check box for plain text, but
> only during "Reply". I can't find it during "New Message". I would value
> comments about the appearance of my postings.

Pat, with all due respect, Outlook and Outlook Express share a number of common
problems.  If you can get your Sys. Admin. there to install Netscape
Communicator 4.51, you'll have a better application for all uses on the Net,
including sending out plain text messages.

[snip]

> 4. Reading the objections about long banter threads reminds me that I'm
> spoiled by having a full-function Email system here at my office. We have
> Microsoft Outlook (which is no more bloated and unreliable than other MS
> products) which does have some helpful features. The main one is, my
> internet Email arrives on my screen just like interoffice Email, and I can
> arrange my settings so that once I've started to read a long string of new
> postings, a single click will either close or delete the current message and
> open the next. This way, I can "delete" my way through a backup of postings
> as fast as I can skim their contents. Therefore, I am not greatly bothered
> by the long strings of friendly chat. HOWEVER: I remember the days of having
> to log onto Compuserve, "you've got mail", having to wait for interminable
> downloads, and finally being able to read messages. If I was still getting
> my postings this way, I would be a lot more bothered by numerous, short
> comments, especially without good Subject lines.

I share your concerns, and I think we're all guilty of not watching the sub.
lines as we should.  I'm on a number of list, and news groups, some because of
professional necessity, and the lack of proper subject line(s) is a problem at
times.  I just set up my dept. at Cornell with 24x7 service at up to 7Mbit
speeds (XDLS), and I have 24x7 here as well, but not quit as fast.  'Have to be
able to monitor systems remotely from here and take care of mail as well.<g>

Thanks,

Fred



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Duncan Macready <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Native American Dogs
Date: 20 Mar 1999 19:18:00 +1300

I assume that the dogs used by the Native Americans there before the
Europeans ,unlike the horse.Are there any pure breeds left if so what type
of dog are they? what do they look like? is there a web site I can access?
YMOS
Cutfinger



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Matter of Training
Date: 20 Mar 1999 08:54:34 -0500

Hey Trap... exactly what is it you're tryin to say???

*grin*.... smoke signal fire done went out...

SeanBear

-----Original Message-----
Bennett <[e-mail]>; [e-mail] <[e-mail]>;
[e-mail] <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
<[e-mail]>; [e-mail] <[e-mail]>;
[e-mail] <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
<[e-mail]>; [e-mail] <[e-mail]>;
petz <[e-mail]>; [e-mail] <[e-mail]>;
[e-mail] <[e-mail]>


>
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Matter of Training
Date: 20 Mar 1999 09:05:02 EST

sorry joke maybe going to wrong site hit wrong key.


                                 trap



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Matter of Training
Date: 20 Mar 1999 09:13:48 -0500

Why be sorry...?? I laughed my ass off..
D

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


>sorry joke maybe going to wrong site hit wrong key.
>
>
>                                 trap
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: OT: MtMan-List: Re: Message Protocol
Date: 20 Mar 1999 08:09:22 -0700

Pat Quilter's comments are excellent. I'd like to add a couple more tips; I
hope they will be received in the spirit in which they are offered. This is
'netiquette' I have learned from other lists.

--If you want to post "chit-chat" (jokes or other stuff not directly
relevant to the Rocky Mountain fur trade from 1800 to 1850), put "OT" at the
beginning of your subject line (like I did with this message). It stands for
"off topic", and is a warning to certain list members to delete without reading.

--Don't leave the message you're replying to stuck at the end of your reply;
if you want to refresh other folks as to what you're responding to, quote
the part you are responding to (and only that part) at the beginning or end
of your message. Otherwise you will be posting messages like "I agree" plus
the entire original message that you agree with, plus the responses from
other folks who did the same thing. This is called 'wasting bandwidth', and
can put an undue strain on Internet e-mail resources, as well as the
patience of other folks on the list, who have to spend precious minutes with
antique computers (386's!) waiting for it all to download.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canadian Cap & rabbit fur
Date: 20 Mar 1999 08:09:11 -0700

References on mittens, lined with rabbit fur & otherwise:

"of all furrs the furr of the hare is the warmest, we place pieces of it in
our mittens, the skin is too thin for any other purpose." c. 1800, Hudson's
Bay (David Thompson, _Narrative_, 31)

"...in the intense cold, the shot is no sooner fired than our hands are in
our large mittens; we walk and pick up the bird, then get the powder in, and
walk again, at length [put in] the shot, and the gun is loaded; it is
needless to say, exposed to such bitter cold, with no shelter, we cannot
fire many shots in a single day. Gloves are found to be worse than useless."
 c. 1800, Hudson's Bay (David Thompson, _Narrative_, 31) (Remember the
"mittened hand" that the large trigger guard on the NW trade gun is supposed
to be for? Well, Thompson is clearly _taking his mittens off_ to shoot.)

"I fortunately escaped [frostbite], by the aid and assistance of a pair of
rabbit skin gloves with which I kept constantly chafing the places
affected..." Dec 9, 1820, Fort Providence on N. shore of Great Slave Lake
(George Back, _Arctic Artist, 103)

"We employed ourselves in making mittens of old deer [caribou] skin that was
found lying about--I made a pair also..." October 10, 1821, Obstruction
Rapids of Coppermine R (about halfway between Great Slave Lake and
Coronation Gulf on the Arctic Ocean). (Back, 184)

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred


[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kinjano
Date: 20 Mar 1999 10:44:16 -0500

I use to belong to the Hyu Eenyas in the EARLY 80's.  It was a great
fellowship of ladies who wanted to get together.  Still have all the old
news letters and keep "somewhat" in touch with the escaped leader.
Have been looking for  women in the southeast with the same interest and
would like to get together and do some "lady" camping.  The summer is too
hot, but there are other times.
Have been looking for  a place to hold the event.  Any one interested??

Linda Holley-Jax., Fla.


Barbara Smith wrote:

> Gads!  You're a GIRL?  Sorry, I just heard the tail of some
> conversations 'bout Ohio, and scaring the boy, and assumed you were
> male!  (Gotta show those assets...)
>
> Anyway, I'm off to see your website, and I'm very interested in what
> you're doing.  This doins' I've been describing was put on by two women
> who used to belong to "Hyu Eenas" (Many Beavers), a group which
> appeared to go belly up after it's ringleader high-tailed it to
> Wyoming.  They had a great newsletter with all sorts of fabulous
> information, and a slogan "Keep yer flour dry!" which always makes me
> grin.  I got into this hobby after they'd died off, but a friend gave me
> copies of their newsletters for the good information.  I BELIEVE they
> were all women associated with AMM brothers in one way or another.  I'd
> be interested in any women's association, but I'm not married to a
> Brother, so please tell me that's not a criteria!
>
> Also, does your group have any ties to similar women's groups elsewhere
> in the country, like say, North Carolina?
>
> Many thanks, dear lady, and sorry about the misassumption:  What  giggle
> I had opening the list today!  :-)
>
> Yer Most Disobedient Servant,
> Tassee




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit fur
Date: 20 Mar 1999 10:49:47 -0500

The blankets were strips of fine rabbit woven like you would make an  old blanket.
There are warp and weft.  Mostly popular with the Southwest Indians.  I have made 4
of these and they are very comfortable and warm.  Also very durable compared to just
sewing large pieces of rabbit fur together.

Linda Holley

Butch wrote:

> Austin, Tim wrote:
> >
> > Good information on the rabbit fur for the moccasins.  What is the source?
> > I know several of the mountain men used buffalo fur to make moccasins, and a
> > trip of Indians in the west that made blankets of rabbit hides with fur
> > still on.
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> > Tim Austin
>
>         Rabbit skin blankets are very warm, but I'd recommend you put the blanket
> inside an envelope of cloth, etc.  Rabbit skin with the fur on sheds
> something awful.  Good way to wake up with a big old mouthful of rabbit
> fur.
>
>         These were used as baby blankets,too, IIRC.
>
>         Butch




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Roy Parker)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Matter of Training
Date: 20 Mar 1999 16:07:46 GMT

On Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:13:48 -0500, you wrote:

>Why be sorry...?? I laughed my ass off..
>D
>
>   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 9:05 AM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Matter of Training
>
>
>>sorry joke maybe going to wrong site hit wrong key.
>>
>>
>>                                 trap
>>
>
>
Hey you guys, quit laughing about this or the anti-humorist party will
get mad again.  As for Fred's initial joke, well, all I can say is
ROTHFLMAO.
Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including =
"BS".
1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: offline-Re: MtMan-List: H&R Springfield Stalker 58 Cal.
Date: 20 Mar 1999 11:25:10 EST

the springfield stalker came in various barrel configerations so i will
sum up what i know about them---early ones were 1-48 twist so that they
could shoot minnies and round ball with a low powder charge--  IE:   60
gr of 2 or 3f as you increase the powder charge you will find that the
groop dia will increase and your accurcy will decrease---have seen some
that will shoot good at 70 to 80 gr of black but would only hold a groop
of about 6 in at 50 yds---start with 50 gr of 3 f and shoot 5 shots for
groop only then increase in 5 gr increments and watch your groop then
pick the charge that gives you the best groop---the bore diameters of the
barrels are two differnt ones and  will shoot a .562 round ball and the
other shoots a .575 round ball with .o15 pillow ticking patches---I like
the tight fit as possible and still have fairly easy loading---the
stalkers also came in a 1-22 twist which was for minnies or solid bullets
or sabots--never saw one of them that shot well at all --groop size
varried from day to day ---the last twist was 1-72 which was a slow twist
for round ball primarily but the rifleing was cut shallow for
minnies---these were the most accurate and consistant but required the
tight fitting patch and ball combination but they were not as powder
critical for accurcy---would shoot good with 60 to 120 gr black---the
only difference is with the increased powder charge the impact of the
bullet would rise   most of these had a accurcy load of about 90 gr of 2
or 3 f powder---I prefer the 3 f because it burns cleaner and less powder
is required to get the higher velosity---

the stalker was intended to be used as a cheep deer hunting gun and work
well with that when you work up your accurcy load---feel free to contact
me offline or give me a call and we can go into depth about your gun---

hope i have been of assistance to you on your question---

  =+=
"HAWK"
Michael pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor Florida  34684
E-mail:   [e-mail]

On Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:11:48 EST [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Sir,
>I stumbled across you while surfing for information about the above
>mentioned
>gun. I bought it sight un seen off the internet (ebay) and am very
>happy with
>it. Only catch is there was no spec with it. So I tried to determine
>the rate
>of twist and determined that the rate was about one in forty inches.
>This rate
>seems strange in a production gun. My question is, Do you or anyone
>you know
>have any information or expierience with this gun. Iwould appreciate
>any help.
>thank you
>D.Pancho Noggler
>[e-mail]
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: OT Re: MtMan-List: Re: Message Protocol
Date: 20 Mar 1999 09:59:12 -0700

Angela,
I'm leaving some of your remarks at the bottom of this comment because what
you have stated and what Pat has asked is only common sense. We all like a
joke, just like Dennis has stated and it makes reading a little lighter than
just straight facts day in and day out.

The main concern is we don't make extra work for our web master, Dean. So
lets try and keep our "subject" reference to the item being discussed. this
way Dean doesn't have to read everything that the system kicks out for the
"listing" we all enjoy, Dean has provided a great source for all to enjoy,
so "lets not kill the goose that laid the golden egg" with being over
worked.

I know some will cry about this, but they're not the one doing the work
either, like Pat and Angela have stated use a code in the "subject line" to
tip off the ones not wanting to read "out of text" material and give Dean a
break, he works to hard as it is.

Thanks for your understanding.

Buck Conner

PS

Any of you working for someone else will relate to this joke, wonder if the
fur trade had these problems with management ??

Another Management Plan !!!

This may sound more familiar if you use your company's name in place of the
American Team's name.

The Americans and the Japanese decided to engage in a competitive boat race.
Both teams practiced hard and long to reach their peak performance.

On the big day the Americans felt ready, but the Japanese won by a mile.
Afterward, the American team was discouraged by the loss. Morale sagged.
Corporate management decided that the reason for the crushing defeat had to
be found, so a consulting firm was hired to investigate the problem and
recommended corrective action.

The consultant's finding: The Japanese team had eight people rowing and one
person steering; the American team had one person rowing and eight people
steering.

After a year of study and millions spent analyzing the problem, the
consultant firm concluded that too many people were steering and not enough
were rowing on the American team.

So as the next race day neared the following year, the American team's
management structure was completely reorganized. The new structure: four
steering managers, three area steering managers and a new performance review
system for the person rowing the boat to provide work incentive.

The next year, the Japanese won by two miles. Humiliated, the American
corporation laid off the rower for poor performance and gave the managers a
bonus for discovering the problem.


-----Original Message-----


>Pat Quilter's comments are excellent. I'd like to add a couple more tips; I
>hope they will be received in the spirit in which they are offered. This is
>'netiquette' I have learned from other lists.
>
>--If you want to post "chit-chat" (jokes or other stuff not directly
>relevant to the Rocky Mountain fur trade from 1800 to 1850), put "OT" at
the
>beginning of your subject line (like I did with this message). It stands
for
>"off topic", and is a warning to certain list members to delete without
reading.





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Native American Dogs
Date: 20 Mar 1999 13:02:27 EST

In a message dated 3/20/99 1:20:12 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Dogs used by the Native Americans >>
Smithsonian Magazine, March 1999 goes into the DNA experiment that are going
on right now concerning domestic dog breeds.  The "Carolina Dog" is the main
interest of the article.  It is a "Yaller Dog" (yellow) the kind Southern
Democrats would vote for.  The electronic address is www.smithsonianmag.si.edu



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    "John Hunt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: 1st beaver skinn`in
Date: 20 Mar 1999 13:20:34 -0800

     List members;
     At this time I would like to applaud all beaver skinners past and present, Huzzah!!! Yesterday I skinned my 1st. beaver. All my
previous skinning experience has been rabbit, squirrel, ground hogs and a couple of deer. The ole beaver was 53# by the bathroom
scales. The beaver had been under for a while. Needless to say the beaver being cold didn`t want to remove his fur coat. I let`em
warm in the sun a few days, I don`t think it helped much. With much knife and blue language I finally got the sob`s coat off. The
tail wasn`t too bad to skin. I pulled and pulled just wasn`t strong enough to pull it very far, more knife.
    An AMM friend Dennis Miles gave me some tips on what to keep, I kept skull, pelt, tail leather, certain bones, but neglected to
tell how tough it was to skin "thanks buddy" <G>. If I get another me and beaver will come over to visit you Dennis.
    Could anyone give an apprenticeship to a wanna be beaver skinner? I would gratefully appreciate any tips on beaver skinn`in any
ole skinner would share.
     I didn`t get the beaver myself a friend gave it to me. I haven`t learned trapping skills yet.

    Dennis, honestly, honestly, when you see the fur, honestly, I didn`t use a chain saw, just one of your knives.

    My opinion, beaver skinn`in ole mountainmen were a tough lot. Probably didn`t take no shit from no beaver, either.

John (BIG JOHN) Hunt
Longhunter
Mountainman
southwest  Ohio




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mike Rock <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #262
Date: 20 Mar 1999 12:17:55 -0600

some women in the WI_ILL area had a 'ladies doins' over the last several
years.  Real good people!  Try to contact Lorraine Searl at
309-792-5452.  And buy some beads.  She and Mike are great dealers and
Mike and Leroy are Artists with the capital A.

Is the top lady of the Eenas called the  Hi-Eena??




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Laurel huber <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canadian Cap & rabiit fur
Date: 20 Mar 1999 10:44:21 -0800

The Ojibway tribes of the Great Lakes area also used rabbit skin blankets as a
regular item.  They has access to other hides and skins but used the rather
useless and abundant rabbit furs inside their lodges.  It's true that rabbit
will not take much abuse but its availability and cheapness made its use for
temporary wadding and warmth widespread among the Canadian/Minnesotan tribes.
Rabbit skin was also used to wad shot in smoothbores, to line cradleboards,
care for women's monthly needs and to line the moccasins of young children.
Although I have not come across any mention of adults regularly  lining their
moccasins with rabbit, I imagine it would be done if it was all that was
available on the trail.

Larry "Shoots-the-Prairie" Huber

Joe Brandl wrote:

> Some natives may have used rabbit for linings, but I find it hard to
> believe that given almost any other type of fur or hide, that rabbit would
> of been used much. Wild rabbit skin are paper thin, the fur mats easily,
> thus loses insulation quality, take a lot of rabbits for a blanket.
> Exception were the southwestern tribes that wove blankets with rabbit
> skins.
> Joe
>
> Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
> Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
> Write for custom tanning prices
> We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
> hair on robes
> Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
> check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Laurel huber <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Discussions
Date: 20 Mar 1999 11:37:20 -0800

I am back on the list after a long absence.  I'm happy to see the familiar
names of many of my brothers at the bottom of thoughtful discussions and
debates.  I mark the names of those I do not know but because of their insight
and information, I plan on making their acquaintance when our paths cross down
the trail.  Your commitment to this era and your practical experiences make
this site the valuable tool it is.
I enjoy, also, the occasional jibe or joke that occurs whenever old friends
meet to exchange views.  I am guilty of picking up the phone and reading one
right off the list to a  brother who is not technologically enhanced.  But I
think that the frequent and reoccurring one-liners that go back and forth
between the same people tends to clutter the list with "in-jokes" and
witticisms that we all can't appreciate.  I have collected the addresses of
several brothers off this list for the purpose of contacting them about
incidents and information that would be nothing but "yadda-yadda-yadda" to
others who subscribe to this list.  I do this out of respect for the work Dean
has done in building up the validity of this site as a serious tool of research
that sets it apart from the other Rendezvous chat lists out there.  I recommend
this course to those others who agree with this philosophy.
Happy to be back.

Larry "Shoots-the-Prairie" Huber
AMM # 1517

larry pendleton wrote:

> Lanney I agree.  No doubt I am more guilty than most.  If I have offended
> anyone I appologize.  I am afraid it is just my nature to B.S.  A very dear
> friend of ours has the philosophy that, 'You ain't gonna get out of this
> life alive so you might as well have some fun while your'e here."  I figure
> if we can have some fun and learn as much about history as is possible on
> this list, then we are accomplishing some thing on both points.  I will try
> to keep a lid on the B.S. as much as I can in an effort to keep from
> bothering the folks who don't believe that you can do both.
> There are postings on the list everyday that I am not interested in.  Like
> you I know what the delete button is for.
> Pendleton
>
> ----------
> > From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
> > To: [e-mail]
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Discussions
> > Date: Thursday, March 18, 1999 9:06 PM
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Frank <[e-mail]>
> > To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> > Date: Thursday, March 18, 1999 8:52 PM
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Discussions
> >
> >
> > >Thank you!
> > >I couldn't have said it better or with more grace and I _totally_ agree.
> > >
> > >Medicine Bear
> > >
> > >Joe Brandl wrote:
> > > This has developed into a close knit
> > >> group because of subject matter.
> >
> > What Joe said is essentially correct.  However, I think that much of the
> close knit nature of this list is based more on friendships than subject
> matter.  And friends overlook the slight imperfections in their friends.  I
> don't seem much harm if a few people use the list in the manner described.
> I am sincerely sorry if anybody's sensibilities are tweaked by this, but
> when I see posts from people who generally bore me I stroke the "delete"
> command and forget it.
> > Not trying to stir up any crap, just giving my opinion.
> > Lanney Ratcliff
> > >>
> > >> Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
> > >> Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
> > >> Write for custom tanning prices
> > >> We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather
> and
> > >> hair on robes
> > >> Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings,
> baskets
> > >> check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka
> > >
> > >
> >






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Discussions
Date: 20 Mar 1999 16:52:07 -0600

   ><<NOBODY ever said that humor wasn't allowed.>>
   >MB,
   >Unfortunately, someone DID suggest this fact to me in a private
   >post. And being one of the occasional "chatters", I thought about
   >it for awhile and decided to post my response. There are those out
   >there that do not, under ANY circumstances want anything except the
   >"technically dry, impersonal, humorless list", that I mentioned
   >before. There are a couple on every list. Fortunately, they are far
   >and few in between.  That is why I wrote what I did, and I stand by
   >it. D
Sticking to the dry clinical way of discussion and research will put most
to sleep. I agree with Dennis and I didn't think that there was any problem
with the discussions going on. If your not interrested in it skip it,use the
delete key.
Jeff Powers,A mind like a steel trap:Rusty and illegal in 37 states!

If a tin whistle is made out of tin,what is a fog horn made out of?

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mike rock
Date: 20 Mar 1999 17:16:39 -0600

Hey Mike, Are you from the Mount Horeb-Dodgeville area?


   >some women in the WI_ILL area had a 'ladies doins' over the last
   >several years.  Real good people!  Try to contact Lorraine Searl at
   >309-792-5452.  And buy some beads.  She and Mike are great dealers
   >and Mike and Leroy are Artists with the capital A.
   >Is the top lady of the Eenas called the  Hi-Eena??

Jeff Powers,A mind like a steel trap:Rusty and illegal in 37 states!

ARE YOU READY?.......TO MEET THE KING?

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Richard Pickert <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: skinnin beavor
Date: 20 Mar 1999 15:51:44 -0800 (PST)

--0-1632621729-921973904=:17519
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline




note: forwarded msg attached.


==


      Rick(Walks in the Night)Pickert


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

--0-1632621729-921973904=:17519
Content-Type: message/rfc822

Received: from [147.198.112.59] by send204.mail.yahoo.com; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 11:24:19 PST
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Length: 822


John:
 I agree that the mtn men were sure some. I am sure most all beavor
were skinned right where the were caught and not taken back to camp
whole.Try to carry a couple of whole beavor your shootin stick and all!
as for tips I have skinned quite a few and the way that I like to do
it is by putting them on a table about 3' high and I tie a rope to the
tail and hook it to a beam I have infron of the table. I have an old
school table with  a nice smooth top and the beavor can easily be
moved around on it. It still is quite a process.
I rough skin mine and then finish on a beam, although I have seen
people clean skin and that works fine too.
Hope you have many more to do>
Rick




_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


--0-1632621729-921973904=:17519--



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Richard Pickert <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: skinnin beavor
Date: 20 Mar 1999 15:54:29 -0800 (PST)

--0-2084420925-921974069=:17683
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline




note: forwarded msg attached.


==


      Rick(Walks in the Night)Pickert


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

--0-2084420925-921974069=:17683
Content-Type: message/rfc822

Received: from [147.198.112.59] by send204.mail.yahoo.com; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 11:24:19 PST
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Length: 822


John:
 I agree that the mtn men were sure some. I am sure most all beavor
were skinned right where the were caught and not taken back to camp
whole.Try to carry a couple of whole beavor your shootin stick and all!
as for tips I have skinned quite a few and the way that I like to do
it is by putting them on a table about 3' high and I tie a rope to the
tail and hook it to a beam I have infron of the table. I have an old
school table with  a nice smooth top and the beavor can easily be
moved around on it. It still is quite a process.
I rough skin mine and then finish on a beam, although I have seen
people clean skin and that works fine too.
Hope you have many more to do>
Rick




_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


--0-2084420925-921974069=:17683--



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re:wabbit fur
Date: 20 Mar 1999 22:22:34 -0600




>
>
>
> >The blankets were strips of fine rabbit woven like you would make an  old blanket.
> >There are warp and weft.  Mostly popular with the Southwest Indians.  I have made 4
> >of these and they are very comfortable and warm.  Also very durable compared to just
> >sewing large pieces of rabbit fur together.

These rabbit skin robes were also popular in the Northeast...anywhere it got cold, as a
matter of fact.  I understand that skins taken in the middle of the winter won't shed
nearly
as bad as those taken in late winter, or so I'm told. I'm also told that  rabbit robes
are too
warm to use above 20 degrees F.

Any truth to this? Also, how many skins are needed to make a three point size robe, and
do you make them for sale?  <sheepish grin>       Thanks          J.D.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re:history channel--the mountain man
Date: 20 Mar 1999 23:32:54 EST

you guys that provided input to the 2 hr show on the history channel did
good--only cought a couple of places that I knew wasn't correct but the
presentation and the total overall was outstanding---those of you that
helped with input slap yourselves on the back and congratulate
yourselves---lots of beautiful pictures of the mountains---makes my feet
want to wander back "to the shinning times".

their period rifles were not quite right but some were--good to see the
briger hawkins but not enough detail of it---got to hold and fondel it
back in the early 50's so made me feel like i had a good thread to the
storey line---didn't see enough of the trade guns wished they had done
more close up's of some of the stuff they were using--i know for sure
most of it was duplication one good shot of round bottom rifleing in a
gun that was quite interesting--did'nt like the picture of the guy
pouring powder down the barrel from his horn---but the total show was
very good---

guys you did good---a real good story line and transition of
thought---some good maps and talking about several of the journels of the
various mountain men---especially liked the part about the yousmity  (SP)
valley and the pictures---some good input about women and indian
brides--it would be a good additional subject for another hr
special---bet some of you girls on the chat could add a lot to the
costumes and other stuff ---

thought i should drop a note in case some of you guys get to see it when
it is reshown---

YMHOSANT
   =+=
"HAWK"
Michael pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor Florida  34684
E-mail:   [e-mail]

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube
Date: 20 Mar 1999 23:32:55 EST

snail mail address is attached---

"HAWK"
Michael pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor Florida  34684
E-mail:   [e-mail]

On Sat, 20 Mar 1999 00:31:29 -0500 "Fred A. Miller"
<[e-mail]> writes:
>[e-mail] wrote:
>>
>> fred you didn't give any details except that you had worked for two
>years
>> on it--what is it's base and what makes it so good and easy to load
>and
>> shoot with---send more info and what do you get for a sample of
>> it---always looking for a better mouse trap---"my grizzley snot" or
>"ol
>> grizz"  is very similar to the old black solve that was sold back in
>the
>> 60's except that I use burning silica--a disbursing agent for
>systems to
>> keep  oils and other liquids from frothing when areated--it also
>uses all
>>  bio-degradable stuff so that there is no residue in the barrel---I
>add
>> some alcahol so that it wont freeze in the winter.
>>
>> what makes your lube so good and wonderful--I dont put anything in
>the
>> barrel of my gun that I dont know what it is and what it will
>do---will
>> be glad to send you a sample of mine for a sample of yours---
>
>Mike, send me your smail-mail address and we'll send off a
>sample....don't need
>your's, thanks.  A number of folks would like to know what's in it.<g>
> ALL
>ingredients were available in the 1700's, and nothing in it will harm
>a firearm.
>
>Fred
>
>--
>"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
>http://www.cap-n-ball.com/thunder/
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube
Date: 20 Mar 1999 23:41:15 -0500

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> snail mail address is attached---

[snip]

Noted.

Fred

--
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
http://www.cap-n-ball.com/thunder/



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:history channel--the mountain man
Date: 20 Mar 1999 23:00:09 -0600

I was not impressed with the beaver set and the ear-wax gold leathers in =
addition to the things you mentioned.  Overall, I thought the show was =
pretty good but not as good as  I would have liked, but it could have =
been way worse.  I taped it and will keep the tape. =20
my 2 cents worth
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----


>you guys that provided input to the 2 hr show on the history channel =
did
>good--only cought a couple of places that I knew wasn't correct but the
>presentation and the total overall was outstanding---those of you that
>helped with input slap yourselves on the back and congratulate
>yourselves---lots of beautiful pictures of the mountains---makes my =
feet
>want to wander back "to the shinning times".
>
>their period rifles were not quite right but some were--good to see the
>briger hawkins but not enough detail of it---got to hold and fondel it
>back in the early 50's so made me feel like i had a good thread to the
>storey line---didn't see enough of the trade guns wished they had done
>more close up's of some of the stuff they were using--i know for sure
>most of it was duplication one good shot of round bottom rifleing in a
>gun that was quite interesting--did'nt like the picture of the guy
>pouring powder down the barrel from his horn---but the total show was
>very good---
>
>guys you did good---a real good story line and transition of
>thought---some good maps and talking about several of the journels of =
the
>various mountain men---especially liked the part about the yousmity  =
(SP)
>valley and the pictures---some good input about women and indian
>brides--it would be a good additional subject for another hr
>special---bet some of you girls on the chat could add a lot to the
>costumes and other stuff ---
>
>thought i should drop a note in case some of you guys get to see it =
when
>it is reshown---
>
>YMHOSANT
>   =3D+=3D  =20
>"HAWK"
>Michael pierce
>854 Glenfield Dr.
>Palm Harbor Florida  34684
>E-mail:   [e-mail]
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at =
http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Beau Stiles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:history channel--the mountain man
Date: 20 Mar 1999 23:16:11 -0600

Can anyone tell me if the history channel show from tonight is going to run
again. I unfortunately missed it. Thanks!

Beau Stiles
-----Original Message-----


I was not impressed with the beaver set and the ear-wax gold leathers in
addition to the things you mentioned.  Overall, I thought the show was
pretty good but not as good as  I would have liked, but it could have been
way worse.  I taped it and will keep the tape.
my 2 cents worth
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----


>you guys that provided input to the 2 hr show on the history channel did
>good--only cought a couple of places that I knew wasn't correct but the
>presentation and the total overall was outstanding---those of you that
>helped with input slap yourselves on the back and congratulate
>yourselves---lots of beautiful pictures of the mountains---makes my feet
>want to wander back "to the shinning times".
>
>their period rifles were not quite right but some were--good to see the
>briger hawkins but not enough detail of it---got to hold and fondel it
>back in the early 50's so made me feel like i had a good thread to the
>storey line---didn't see enough of the trade guns wished they had done
>more close up's of some of the stuff they were using--i know for sure
>most of it was duplication one good shot of round bottom rifleing in a
>gun that was quite interesting--did'nt like the picture of the guy
>pouring powder down the barrel from his horn---but the total show was
>very good---
>
>guys you did good---a real good story line and transition of
>thought---some good maps and talking about several of the journels of the
>various mountain men---especially liked the part about the yousmity  (SP)
>valley and the pictures---some good input about women and indian
>brides--it would be a good additional subject for another hr
>special---bet some of you girls on the chat could add a lot to the
>costumes and other stuff ---
>
>thought i should drop a note in case some of you guys get to see it when
>it is reshown---
>
>YMHOSANT
>   =+=
>"HAWK"
>Michael pierce
>854 Glenfield Dr.
>Palm Harbor Florida  34684
>E-mail:   [e-mail]
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>








-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ron Chamberlain" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:history channel--the mountain man
Date: 20 Mar 1999 22:20:40 -0700



>Can anyone tell me if the history channel show from tonight is going to run
>again. I unfortunately missed it. Thanks!


Sunday 3/21 2AM MT

Kudo's to you that provided input on the show!

Lonewolf
http://www.historychannel.com/ontv/index.html







-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Richard Pickert <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: marquis tent
Date: 21 Mar 1999 05:46:35 -0800 (PST)


 can anyone tell me what time period (years) a revolutionary war
marquis tent fits into?
WITN
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: marquis tent
Date: 21 Mar 1999 07:05:27 -0800




>
> can anyone tell me what time period (years) a revolutionary war
>marquis tent fits into?
>WITN
>
The Marquis tent goes way back to Mid evil days through the present They are
still using that type of tent for special sales and weddings it takes two
people or more to put it up and they are heavy and take up a lot room in the
Truck to haul.  But they are correct, for any time.  Jon T




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: marquis tent
Date: 21 Mar 1999 09:59:57 -0600

Jon
One of the most amazing things I ever saw was a one legged RDV trader =
named Bob Gass put up and take down a good sized marquis tent without =
assistance.  Best display of stubborness I ever heard of.
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----


>
>
>
>>
>> can anyone tell me what time period (years) a revolutionary war
>>marquis tent fits into?
>>WITN
>>
>The Marquis tent goes way back to Mid evil days through the present =
They are
>still using that type of tent for special sales and weddings it takes =
two
>people or more to put it up and they are heavy and take up a lot room =
in the
>Truck to haul.  But they are correct, for any time.  Jon T
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kinjano
Date: 21 Mar 1999 12:36:44 EST

In a message dated 3/18/99 11:24:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<<  I'd
 be interested in any women's association, but I'm not married to a
 Brother, so please tell me that's not a criteria!
.......... Barb....... i am not married either...... but living in sin with a
guy who thinks reenacting and rendezvousing is some sort of disease!!!!!
naw,,, it's not that bad, he just isn't into camping - of any kind!  his idea
of primitive is any hotel built before 1980!  and that's just fine with
me...... i wouldn't want him to go along anyway!  i am very gregarious and
have much more fun on my own......  so if we did start an official
organization it wouldn't have any criteria like being married, much less to a
certified 'skinner.


 Also, does your group have any ties to similar women's groups elsewhere
 in the country, like say, North Carolina?
..... we don't have a "group"...... it's just Karen and me throwing a weekend
of fun and "education" for ladies who like living history......


kinjano
(a.k.a. scary mary)



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kinjano
Date: 21 Mar 1999 12:54:02 EST

In a message dated 3/20/99 10:34:27 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< I use to belong to the Hyu Eenyas in the EARLY 80's.  It was a great
 fellowship of ladies who wanted to get together.  Still have all the old
 news letters and keep "somewhat" in touch with the escaped leader.
 Have been looking for  women in the southeast with the same interest and
 would like to get together and do some "lady" camping.  The summer is too
 hot, but there are other times.
 Have been looking for  a place to hold the event.  Any one interested??

 Linda Holley-Jax., Fla. >>

Linda......... i was talking with karen (my co-hort in crime) the other night
and we might startup a newsletter of sorts for women in history..... just
gotta find the time.....

Be sure to go check out   www.7e.org      we have our flyer listed there for
our women's event...... maybe you could make it!     even if you could fly up
we would find all the camp gear you need!

mary



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: marquis tent
Date: 21 Mar 1999 13:04:34 EST

In a message dated 3/21/99 8:47:25 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< can anyone tell me what time period (years) a revolutionary war
 marquis tent fits into?
 WITN >>

technically the shape, size and style of a rectangular marquis type tent can
be found as far back as 3 rd century in the middle east...... it was used then
as a tent for ladies of the harem as well as for food/equipment/slave
storage....... it (the shape, size and style) is still be used today by many
armed forces around the world - only the materials, construction and color of
cloth has changed........  if you are talking about a "white canvas tent with
scalloped edging, internal poles with a ridge pole" typical of the F&I war,
Rev War and medival reenacting, you can't much farther forward than the end of
the 1800's.... they were in limited use during the war of 1812 and it tapered
off even more from there.........  for the best information on the marquis
tent contact Tentsmiths, Peter Marques, in Conway, N.H........ he has some of
the best documentation going..... don't know his phone number, but you could
get it out of Smoke & Fire News, Muzzleblasts, etc.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old Mines
Date: 21 Mar 1999 13:12:09 EST

In a message dated 3/20/99 5:10:21 AM !!!First Boot!!!, [e-mail]
writes:

<< I am looking for the dates for the rendezvous in Old Mines MO.
-------------
------(stuff deleted)------------ >>

Rick,

  Teh date for Old Mines is as follows:

5/14-16/99
    "La Fete a Renault"
    Old Mines, Missouri
    For more information contact:
            Rick & Mary Rill - Rt. 3, Box 73454; Potosi, Mo. 63664 - [phone]
         or: Dick Julittee - Rt. 1, Box 1108; Cadet, Mo. 63630 - [phone]

I have recently updated my webpage @:

            http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html

you will find the dates for rendezvous in Mo. @:

            http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/rend_mo.html

and the dates for rendezvous in Ill. @:

            http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/rend_ill.html

                                                    Longshot



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Richard Pickert <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: marquis tent
Date: 21 Mar 1999 11:09:39 -0800 (PST)


thanks for the great info!




-
>

==


      Rick(Walks in the Night)Pickert


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    "John Hunt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: trade my trade gun
Date: 21 Mar 1999 15:05:58 -0800

I have a northwest trade gun mfg. by Curly Gostomski in right hand configuration that I want to trade for in a lefty mfg. by Curly
G., or a left Wilson. No sales, no rifle trades, no canoe guns.



John (BIG JOHN) Hunt
Longhunter
Mountainman
southwest  Ohio




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "The Brooks" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Rifling Machine
Date: 22 Mar 1999 20:03:52 +1200


Pendalton Wrote re machine.
Have been away at a rondy for the last couple of days and just clearing the
messages so this may have been answered. Try the  ""How to build;d the
Antique rifling machine" book written by Joseph A. Seabolt address is
Rifling, P.O. Box 3967, Muskegon Michigan 49444 or image Graphics P.O. Box
996 Paducah, Kentucky 42001. It was published in 1976 so it may be difficult
to locate. I think DGW had them also for a while. If you have no joy contact
me and I will photocopy it off for you.Kind Regards
Kia Ora,
Big Bear
In Sunny warm Marlborough New Zealand.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Vickie Nielsen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: OT: MtMan-List: Re: Message Protocol
Date: 21 Mar 1999 14:44:30 -0700

will someone please post the address for un-subscribing? Thank you.

Angela Gottfred wrote:

> Pat Quilter's comments are excellent. I'd like to add a couple more tips; I
> hope they will be received in the spirit in which they are offered. This is
> 'netiquette' I have learned from other lists.
>
> --If you want to post "chit-chat" (jokes or other stuff not directly
> relevant to the Rocky Mountain fur trade from 1800 to 1850), put "OT" at the
> beginning of your subject line (like I did with this message). It stands for
> "off topic", and is a warning to certain list members to delete without reading.
>
> --Don't leave the message you're replying to stuck at the end of your reply;
> if you want to refresh other folks as to what you're responding to, quote
> the part you are responding to (and only that part) at the beginning or end
> of your message. Otherwise you will be posting messages like "I agree" plus
> the entire original message that you agree with, plus the responses from
> other folks who did the same thing. This is called 'wasting bandwidth', and
> can put an undue strain on Internet e-mail resources, as well as the
> patience of other folks on the list, who have to spend precious minutes with
> antique computers (386's!) waiting for it all to download.
>
> Your humble & obedient servant,
> Angela Gottfred
>
> [e-mail]






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: marquis tent
Date: 21 Mar 1999 16:02:00 -0600

At 01:04 PM 3/21/99 -0500, you wrote:
.........=A0 for the best information on the marquis
>tent contact Tentsmiths, Peter Marques, in Conway, N.H........ he has so=
me of
>the best documentation going..... don't know his phone number, but you c=
ould
>get it out of Smoke & Fire News, Muzzleblasts, etc.
>=20

TRY:
<http://www.tentsmiths.com/>http://www.tentsmiths.com/

Peter and Deborah make fine goods.

John...

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: MtMan-List: Blanket
Date: 21 Mar 1999 18:02:20 -0500

Hey all,
 Gotta question... Does anyone know what would have been a common color for
a Franch-made blanket, mid 18thC.?
Thanks in advance
D

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: OT: MtMan-List: Re: Message Protocol
Date: 21 Mar 1999 17:37:38 -0600

Click on this and go to e-mail discussion lists and click there.  Scroll =
down and follow directions.
Lanney Ratcliff

http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html

-----Original Message-----


>will someone please post the address for un-subscribing? Thank you.
>
>Angela Gottfred wrote:
>
>> Pat Quilter's comments are excellent. I'd like to add a couple more =
tips; I
>> hope they will be received in the spirit in which they are offered. =
This is
>> 'netiquette' I have learned from other lists.
>>
>> --If you want to post "chit-chat" (jokes or other stuff not directly
>> relevant to the Rocky Mountain fur trade from 1800 to 1850), put "OT" =
at the
>> beginning of your subject line (like I did with this message). It =
stands for
>> "off topic", and is a warning to certain list members to delete =
without reading.
>>
>> --Don't leave the message you're replying to stuck at the end of your =
reply;
>> if you want to refresh other folks as to what you're responding to, =
quote
>> the part you are responding to (and only that part) at the beginning =
or end
>> of your message. Otherwise you will be posting messages like "I =
agree" plus
>> the entire original message that you agree with, plus the responses =
from
>> other folks who did the same thing. This is called 'wasting =
bandwidth', and
>> can put an undue strain on Internet e-mail resources, as well as the
>> patience of other folks on the list, who have to spend precious =
minutes with
>> antique computers (386's!) waiting for it all to download.
>>
>> Your humble & obedient servant,
>> Angela Gottfred
>>
>> [e-mail]
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texas & Texicans
Date: 21 Mar 1999 16:55:11 -0600

I speak now of more than patch lube.=A0 It's still pretty greasy.

Remember, you got to let the folks from Baja Oklahoma run off at the mouth
once
in a while about what a wonderful place it is; they're just trying to=
 convince
each other that they really have a good reason to continue to survive and
endure it's many miseries.

I know I been there.=A0 Its big, but it's only full of hot air --- air black
with
ravenous mosquitos. It is a land rife with every pestilence known to man,
rattlesnakes, famine, plague, quicksand, flash floods, drought, hurricanes,
and
every nasty, poisonous, crawling, flying biting, spiny thing known to
creation.=A0 And the worst damn ice storm  I was ever in after 30+ winters=
 of
traveling through the Rockies & More Mountains.=A0=A0=20

Yes Texas is lovely, and a great place to keep Texicans.=A0=20
You gotta feel sorry for them.=A0=20
Look where they live, next door to Hell.

I know of whence I speak as I now live two doors up in Misery.=A0 A place=
 where
nature seems to sense what is the next worst thing it can do to keep the
climate finely tuned between uncomfortable and miserable; accompanied by our
occasional tornado, monsoon, heat wave, arctic freeze, and flood; we're=
 graced
with lots of really vicious bugs, deadly ticks and spiders, swarms of wasps=
 &
hornets and a few poisonous snakes; but we do get two or three nice days a
year.=A0

The Rockies do shine.=A0=20
Blizzards can be fun.=A0=20

From the known to be humorless

John...
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.=20
john [e-mail] =20



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube
Date: 21 Mar 1999 18:39:12 -0600

"Slicker 'n Willie Lube"

Are you sure?=A0 He's slicker than snake snot.=A0=20

I am really having trouble believing anyone before 1930 spent much time
sitting
around chatting up the fine qualities of some mysterious flocum called=
 X?X?X?
patch lube.=A0 I don't think the conversation really heated up until after=
 1970.

I've never encountered any early nineteenth century commercial offerings or
specific recipes for patch lube.  There may be some; at best it was=
 uncommon.

Back when, back East, folks used a lot of blended tallow and beeswax (often
with a little of various minerals, trees, critters, plants and oils) for=
 just
about everything.=A0 Most common folks had some sort of oil or grease and
perhaps
any of several other things.=A0 Most folks in the mountains weren't making=
 up
much in the way of fancy concoctions.=A0 Especially if the ingredients cost
money.=A0=20

No mountain man in his right mind would waste good whiskey and squaw money=
 on
something always available free -- some sort of grease, oil or fat.=A0 It's
plumb
easy to render out the little you need.=A0 Maybe include a few leaves or=
 berries
to improve the smell, but not likely.=A0 We all ought to be carrying around=
 a
bait box.=A0 That'd be real fragrant on a hot summer day.  I doubt any of=
 the
"Beaver" men much cared about something smelling nice.

Warn't they called spit patches?=A0 Hasn't anyone just tried chewing on the=
 end
of a rag?=A0 It works pretty damn well.=A0 (I've been composing this over=
 the past
few days and finally we have the first mention of spit from Dennis Fisher.=
=A0
Thanks.=A0=20

P.S. Paraffin is a modern petroleum wax.

The last time we had this discussion all kinds of modern witches brews were
being touted for greasing and cleaning.=A0=20

I still maintain the old timers used whatever grease they had available=
 (more
likely than not rendered from a bear's belly, a beaver's tail or a buffalo's
hump).=A0=20

They may have mixed it with a little castor to keep their scent down and=
 leave
a tantalizing trail for furry gold.  Whatever needed grease probably got a
coat
of what they had.  Gun, Moc's whatever.

For those that prefer not to render their own fat.=A0 The finest gun, or any
other, grease of the day was sperm oil.=A0 The best natural substitute for=
 sperm
oil today is jojoba oil.=A0 This is one case where I suggest using the
substitute
due to the current shortage of whales.=A0 I just soak patches long ahead of=
 time
and they always seem to work pretty good.=A0 It's those old nasty dirty
strips of
rag tied to my shooting bag, where they're handy.=A0=A0 Carry a few strips=
 dry: to
chew and swab with,=A0handy for char.  If you ain't got spit you're close to
trouble.

Pure neatsfoot (NOT COMPOUNDED) oil, is a good alternative for those without
bear oil or other rendered fat for use on leather.  Jojoba is expensive to=
 use
on leather.  Neatsfoot will work on patches too.

Read the list archive for my suggestion on period gun cleaning solvent.=A0=
 It's
free.=A0 It requires no extra packaging.=A0 Comes in its own container.=A0=
 Handy
dispenser.=A0 Everybody has a ready supply, or they die.=A0 Water works.

The usual excuse is folks want to protect the investment they made in their
fancy smoke pole, or they want to stand on a firing line and shoot all day
without swabbing the bore.=A0 These are pursuits beyond the scope of what
traditionalists are about.=A0=20

Back then their rifles and fusils cost them a higher percentage of their
annual
earnings than ours cost today, they had to make do with what was available.=
=A0
Their life depended on whether or not their weapon worked.=A0 They survived=
 so
what they did must have worked well enough.

If we are to learn from what they knew; we must do what they did --- as much
the same way --- as the centuries allow.=20

Jim Bridger might have used it if he had it --- but he didn't!

Traditional/primitive/authentic/historic/period correct is more about how=
 you
do things, than exactly how you look.=A0 It is a mind set.=A0 We must=
 compromise
enough doing without those things no longer available and those now=
 necessary
to preserve life, there is rare need to resort to modernism when you are
living
history.=A0=20

Often we must now choose something less common than back then; because that
most often then used is now forbade us, for various survival, official or
commercial reasons.=A0 It may be something as simple as the second best oil
or it
may require something then unknown, i.e., high tech water filters to
protect us
from the many poisons modern civilization has strewn about. =20

Those simple things everyone did for themselves can still be done, each
teaches
something.=A0 There is always some period way or period alternative to most
everything we use.=A0 The few forced compromises are too many.

I'm sure lube is a hot topic amongst the paper puncher crowd.=A0 In the=
 Rocky
Mountains of the early nineteenth century paper was too precious a
commodity to
waste on such foolishness.

I have been speaking to those who regularly use, mostly, one gun.=A0 The
mountain
men.=A0 Those who seriously seek learning all: the old ways have to teach.

For those maintaining collections of rarely used weapons there is another
traditional method which can dependably prevent rust over long storage in
humid
or dry areas.=A0 It enriches and preserves the wood and protects the metal.=
=A0
After one or two annual treatments it should not require more than a dry=
 swab
dusting of the bore every year or so and regular dry cotton cloth dusting of
the surface.=A0 It is efficacious on smokepoles used everyday as well.=A0=
 Contact
me off-line for more information. =20
I try not to peddle here.=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=20

John...

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texas & Texicans
Date: 21 Mar 1999 20:05:22 -0600

Then you get days of 80 degree sunshine with 500 acres of bluebonnets, =
Indian paintbrushes, evening primrose and dozens of other glorious =
wildflowers spread out over the prairies before you, undulating in waves =
as a light breeze blows,  with a mockingbird singing a variety of airias =
from a towering pecan tree.  You might even spot an armadillo rooting =
for grubs in that determined way they have.  It is on those days that =
you lift up a prayer of thanks to God for allowing you the privilidge of =
viewing that part of His good earth in the knowledge that seven =
generations of your family have enriched the soil of Texas with their =
blood, sweat, tears....and their bones, to help Him produce such bounty. =
 I hope everybody lives where the land around them is as much a part of =
them as Texas is for me.  If you can say that, then you might be as =
lucky as I am.  Come visit, stay a spell....you might catch the spirit =
of this place.
Lanney Ratcliff, proud Texian
-----Original Message-----


I speak now of more than patch lube. It's still pretty greasy.

Remember, you got to let the folks from Baja Oklahoma run off at the =
mouth
once
in a while about what a wonderful place it is; they're just trying to =
convince
each other that they really have a good reason to continue to survive =
and
endure it's many miseries.

I know I been there. Its big, but it's only full of hot air --- air =
black
with
ravenous mosquitos. It is a land rife with every pestilence known to =
man,
rattlesnakes, famine, plague, quicksand, flash floods, drought, =
hurricanes,
and
every nasty, poisonous, crawling, flying biting, spiny thing known to
creation. And the worst damn ice storm  I was ever in after 30+ winters =
of
traveling through the Rockies & More Mountains.=20

Yes Texas is lovely, and a great place to keep Texicans.=20
You gotta feel sorry for them.=20
Look where they live, next door to Hell.

I know of whence I speak as I now live two doors up in Misery. A place =
where
nature seems to sense what is the next worst thing it can do to keep the
climate finely tuned between uncomfortable and miserable; accompanied by =
our
occasional tornado, monsoon, heat wave, arctic freeze, and flood; we're =
graced
with lots of really vicious bugs, deadly ticks and spiders, swarms of =
wasps &
hornets and a few poisonous snakes; but we do get two or three nice days =
a
year.=20

The Rockies do shine.=20
Blizzards can be fun.=20

From the known to be humorless

John...
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.=20
john [e-mail] =20





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube
Date: 21 Mar 1999 20:09:31 -0600

Got to agree with you when you're right, John.  Got to.
Lanney
-----Original Message-----


"Slicker 'n Willie Lube"

Are you sure? He's slicker than snake snot.=20

I am really having trouble believing anyone before 1930 spent much time
sitting
around chatting up the fine qualities of some mysterious flocum called =
X?X?X?
patch lube. I don't think the conversation really heated up until after =
1970.

I've never encountered any early nineteenth century commercial offerings =
or
specific recipes for patch lube.  There may be some; at best it was =
uncommon.

Back when, back East, folks used a lot of blended tallow and beeswax =
(often
with a little of various minerals, trees, critters, plants and oils) for =
just
about everything. Most common folks had some sort of oil or grease and
perhaps
any of several other things. Most folks in the mountains weren't making =
up
much in the way of fancy concoctions. Especially if the ingredients cost
money.=20

No mountain man in his right mind would waste good whiskey and squaw =
money on
something always available free -- some sort of grease, oil or fat. It's
plumb
easy to render out the little you need. Maybe include a few leaves or =
berries
to improve the smell, but not likely. We all ought to be carrying around =
a
bait box. That'd be real fragrant on a hot summer day.  I doubt any of =
the
"Beaver" men much cared about something smelling nice.

Warn't they called spit patches? Hasn't anyone just tried chewing on the =
end
of a rag? It works pretty damn well. (I've been composing this over the =
past
few days and finally we have the first mention of spit from Dennis =
Fisher.=20
Thanks.=20

P.S. Paraffin is a modern petroleum wax.

The last time we had this discussion all kinds of modern witches brews =
were
being touted for greasing and cleaning.=20

I still maintain the old timers used whatever grease they had available =
(more
likely than not rendered from a bear's belly, a beaver's tail or a =
buffalo's
hump).=20

They may have mixed it with a little castor to keep their scent down and =
leave
a tantalizing trail for furry gold.  Whatever needed grease probably got =
a
coat
of what they had.  Gun, Moc's whatever.

For those that prefer not to render their own fat. The finest gun, or =
any
other, grease of the day was sperm oil. The best natural substitute for =
sperm
oil today is jojoba oil. This is one case where I suggest using the
substitute
due to the current shortage of whales. I just soak patches long ahead of =
time
and they always seem to work pretty good. It's those old nasty dirty
strips of
rag tied to my shooting bag, where they're handy. Carry a few strips =
dry: to
chew and swab with, handy for char.  If you ain't got spit you're close =
to
trouble.

Pure neatsfoot (NOT COMPOUNDED) oil, is a good alternative for those =
without
bear oil or other rendered fat for use on leather.  Jojoba is expensive =
to use
on leather.  Neatsfoot will work on patches too.

Read the list archive for my suggestion on period gun cleaning solvent. =
It's
free. It requires no extra packaging. Comes in its own container. Handy
dispenser. Everybody has a ready supply, or they die. Water works.

The usual excuse is folks want to protect the investment they made in =
their
fancy smoke pole, or they want to stand on a firing line and shoot all =
day
without swabbing the bore. These are pursuits beyond the scope of what
traditionalists are about.=20

Back then their rifles and fusils cost them a higher percentage of their
annual
earnings than ours cost today, they had to make do with what was =
available.=20
Their life depended on whether or not their weapon worked. They survived =
so
what they did must have worked well enough.

If we are to learn from what they knew; we must do what they did --- as =
much
the same way --- as the centuries allow.=20

Jim Bridger might have used it if he had it --- but he didn't!

Traditional/primitive/authentic/historic/period correct is more about =
how you
do things, than exactly how you look. It is a mind set. We must =
compromise
enough doing without those things no longer available and those now =
necessary
to preserve life, there is rare need to resort to modernism when you are
living
history.=20

Often we must now choose something less common than back then; because =
that
most often then used is now forbade us, for various survival, official =
or
commercial reasons. It may be something as simple as the second best oil
or it
may require something then unknown, i.e., high tech water filters to
protect us
from the many poisons modern civilization has strewn about. =20

Those simple things everyone did for themselves can still be done, each
teaches
something. There is always some period way or period alternative to most
everything we use. The few forced compromises are too many.

I'm sure lube is a hot topic amongst the paper puncher crowd. In the =
Rocky
Mountains of the early nineteenth century paper was too precious a
commodity to
waste on such foolishness.

I have been speaking to those who regularly use, mostly, one gun. The
mountain
men. Those who seriously seek learning all: the old ways have to teach.

For those maintaining collections of rarely used weapons there is =
another
traditional method which can dependably prevent rust over long storage =
in
humid
or dry areas. It enriches and preserves the wood and protects the metal. =

After one or two annual treatments it should not require more than a dry =
swab
dusting of the bore every year or so and regular dry cotton cloth =
dusting of
the surface. It is efficacious on smokepoles used everyday as well. =
Contact
me off-line for more information. =20
I try not to peddle here.=20

John...

John T. Kramer, maker of:=20

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
>>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube
Date: 21 Mar 1999 19:41:12 -0700

Take a look at old Dixie Gun works catalogs, over the last 25-30 year's
Turner has had many recipes for patch lube and have seen recipes in several
Sharpes manuals for their front stuffer's before the breech loader came in.

Buck Conner

-----Original Message-----


"Slicker 'n Willie Lube"

Are you sure? He's slicker than snake snot.

I am really having trouble believing anyone before 1930 spent much time
sitting
around chatting up the fine qualities of some mysterious flocum called
X?X?X?
patch lube. I don't think the conversation really heated up until after
1970.

I've never encountered any early nineteenth century commercial offerings or
specific recipes for patch lube.  There may be some; at best it was
uncommon.

Back when, back East, folks used a lot of blended tallow and beeswax (often
with a little of various minerals, trees, critters, plants and oils) for
just
about everything. Most common folks had some sort of oil or grease and
perhaps
any of several other things. Most folks in the mountains weren't making up
much in the way of fancy concoctions. Especially if the ingredients cost
money.

No mountain man in his right mind would waste good whiskey and squaw money
on
something always available free -- some sort of grease, oil or fat. It's
plumb
easy to render out the little you need. Maybe include a few leaves or
berries
to improve the smell, but not likely. We all ought to be carrying around a
bait box. That'd be real fragrant on a hot summer day.  I doubt any of the
"Beaver" men much cared about something smelling nice.

Warn't they called spit patches? Hasn't anyone just tried chewing on the end
of a rag? It works pretty damn well. (I've been composing this over the past
few days and finally we have the first mention of spit from Dennis Fisher.
Thanks.

P.S. Paraffin is a modern petroleum wax.

The last time we had this discussion all kinds of modern witches brews were
being touted for greasing and cleaning.

I still maintain the old timers used whatever grease they had available
(more
likely than not rendered from a bear's belly, a beaver's tail or a buffalo's
hump).

They may have mixed it with a little castor to keep their scent down and
leave
a tantalizing trail for furry gold.  Whatever needed grease probably got a
coat
of what they had.  Gun, Moc's whatever.

For those that prefer not to render their own fat. The finest gun, or any
other, grease of the day was sperm oil. The best natural substitute for
sperm
oil today is jojoba oil. This is one case where I suggest using the
substitute
due to the current shortage of whales. I just soak patches long ahead of
time
and they always seem to work pretty good. It's those old nasty dirty
strips of
rag tied to my shooting bag, where they're handy. Carry a few strips dry: to
chew and swab with, handy for char.  If you ain't got spit you're close to
trouble.

Pure neatsfoot (NOT COMPOUNDED) oil, is a good alternative for those without
bear oil or other rendered fat for use on leather.  Jojoba is expensive to
use
on leather.  Neatsfoot will work on patches too.

Read the list archive for my suggestion on period gun cleaning solvent. It's
free. It requires no extra packaging. Comes in its own container. Handy
dispenser. Everybody has a ready supply, or they die. Water works.

The usual excuse is folks want to protect the investment they made in their
fancy smoke pole, or they want to stand on a firing line and shoot all day
without swabbing the bore. These are pursuits beyond the scope of what
traditionalists are about.

Back then their rifles and fusils cost them a higher percentage of their
annual
earnings than ours cost today, they had to make do with what was available.
Their life depended on whether or not their weapon worked. They survived so
what they did must have worked well enough.

If we are to learn from what they knew; we must do what they did --- as much
the same way --- as the centuries allow.

Jim Bridger might have used it if he had it --- but he didn't!

Traditional/primitive/authentic/historic/period correct is more about how
you
do things, than exactly how you look. It is a mind set. We must compromise
enough doing without those things no longer available and those now
necessary
to preserve life, there is rare need to resort to modernism when you are
living
history.

Often we must now choose something less common than back then; because that
most often then used is now forbade us, for various survival, official or
commercial reasons. It may be something as simple as the second best oil
or it
may require something then unknown, i.e., high tech water filters to
protect us
from the many poisons modern civilization has strewn about.

Those simple things everyone did for themselves can still be done, each
teaches
something. There is always some period way or period alternative to most
everything we use. The few forced compromises are too many.

I'm sure lube is a hot topic amongst the paper puncher crowd. In the Rocky
Mountains of the early nineteenth century paper was too precious a
commodity to
waste on such foolishness.

I have been speaking to those who regularly use, mostly, one gun. The
mountain
men. Those who seriously seek learning all: the old ways have to teach.

For those maintaining collections of rarely used weapons there is another
traditional method which can dependably prevent rust over long storage in
humid
or dry areas. It enriches and preserves the wood and protects the metal.
After one or two annual treatments it should not require more than a dry
swab
dusting of the bore every year or so and regular dry cotton cloth dusting of
the surface. It is efficacious on smokepoles used everyday as well. Contact
me off-line for more information.
I try not to peddle here.

John...

John T. Kramer, maker of:

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
>>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>







-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Apache/Fur trade contact question
Date: 21 Mar 1999 22:05:26 EST

Hello the list,
    While I know later on Kit Carson dealt with the Apache as an Indian Agent
(1857 or so), was there any earlier interaction between the Apache and south
western Mountain Men during the fur trade era? If so, any trading?
    I haven't come across any references in either Apache history or my
limited shelf of mountain man books, but Taos is right there where they were.

Thanks for your time,
Jim



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1st beaver skinn`in
Date: 21 Mar 1999 20:36:31 -0700

John,
After skinning and tanning many many beaver, I find it easier to skin a
hide clean, other like to leave alot of meat and fat on, then work hide
around edges towards middle. the weight of the fleshing help to "roll" the
stuff off easier. When tanning beaver, I perfer to have them salted rather
than air dried. It is easier to shave or thin a beaver when the leg holes
or cut through rather than "in the round" Most tanneries cut the leg holes
as it faciltates using mechical means of thinning or shaving. Only reason
to cut a beaver from the anus to the chin in  to stretch it round for fur
buyers. Right now beaver is bringing less than $10/pelt for good ones.
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Pierre's Hole fight
Date: 21 Mar 1999 22:50:05 -0700

At 06:14 PM 3/18/99 -0600, you wrote:

>Instead of whining about the content of the messages,  start a conversation
>about a historical subject.  Works for me.     J.D.
>
OK, here's one for ya.  If Milton and the boys was headed to Snake River
country they would be heading to (modern) Pine Creek area.  How could they
have run into the Gros Vente coming off Teton Pass, as is generally
considered to be the case?  Milton and the guys would be miles from there,
and headed the other way (south west).  In Ferris' book he puts the fight
much more to the southwest end of the hole.

Any ideas?

Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Munroe Crutchley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Carrying loaded rifles
Date: 21 Mar 1999 21:49:17 -0800

I tried this question several months ago and got no response, so I'll try
again:

How long do you suppose a loaded muzzleloader was carried before it was
discharged and loaded fresh? If a man's life depended on his rifle firing,
it would seem he would have to consider dampness, condensation, etc. so
there would be some limit to the dependability of a loaded rifle.

Munroe Crutchley
Grants Pass, OR




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Laurel huber <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube
Date: 21 Mar 1999 22:41:34 -0800

I agree as well.  Manufactured lubes were created for the "firing line", military
or sporting.  I imagine such lubes appeal to those who shoot 20-30 shots on a
modern walk-through.

Larry Huber

Ratcliff wrote:

> Got to agree with you when you're right, John.  Got to.
> Lanney
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 6:53 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube
>
> "Slicker 'n Willie Lube"
>
> Are you sure? He's slicker than snake snot.
>
> I am really having trouble believing anyone before 1930 spent much time
> sitting
> around chatting up the fine qualities of some mysterious flocum called X?X?X?
> patch lube. I don't think the conversation really heated up until after 1970.
>
> I've never encountered any early nineteenth century commercial offerings or
> specific recipes for patch lube.  There may be some; at best it was uncommon.
>
> Back when, back East, folks used a lot of blended tallow and beeswax (often
> with a little of various minerals, trees, critters, plants and oils) for just
> about everything. Most common folks had some sort of oil or grease and
> perhaps
> any of several other things. Most folks in the mountains weren't making up
> much in the way of fancy concoctions. Especially if the ingredients cost
> money.
>
> No mountain man in his right mind would waste good whiskey and squaw money on
> something always available free -- some sort of grease, oil or fat. It's
> plumb
> easy to render out the little you need. Maybe include a few leaves or berries
> to improve the smell, but not likely. We all ought to be carrying around a
> bait box. That'd be real fragrant on a hot summer day.  I doubt any of the
> "Beaver" men much cared about something smelling nice.
>
> Warn't they called spit patches? Hasn't anyone just tried chewing on the end
> of a rag? It works pretty damn well. (I've been composing this over the past
> few days and finally we have the first mention of spit from Dennis Fisher.
> Thanks.
>
> P.S. Paraffin is a modern petroleum wax.
>
> The last time we had this discussion all kinds of modern witches brews were
> being touted for greasing and cleaning.
>
> I still maintain the old timers used whatever grease they had available (more
> likely than not rendered from a bear's belly, a beaver's tail or a buffalo's
> hump).
>
> They may have mixed it with a little castor to keep their scent down and leave
> a tantalizing trail for furry gold.  Whatever needed grease probably got a
> coat
> of what they had.  Gun, Moc's whatever.
>
> For those that prefer not to render their own fat. The finest gun, or any
> other, grease of the day was sperm oil. The best natural substitute for sperm
> oil today is jojoba oil. This is one case where I suggest using the
> substitute
> due to the current shortage of whales. I just soak patches long ahead of time
> and they always seem to work pretty good. It's those old nasty dirty
> strips of
> rag tied to my shooting bag, where they're handy. Carry a few strips dry: to
> chew and swab with, handy for char.  If you ain't got spit you're close to
> trouble.
>
> Pure neatsfoot (NOT COMPOUNDED) oil, is a good alternative for those without
> bear oil or other rendered fat for use on leather.  Jojoba is expensive to use
> on leather.  Neatsfoot will work on patches too.
>
> Read the list archive for my suggestion on period gun cleaning solvent. It's
> free. It requires no extra packaging. Comes in its own container. Handy
> dispenser. Everybody has a ready supply, or they die. Water works.
>
> The usual excuse is folks want to protect the investment they made in their
> fancy smoke pole, or they want to stand on a firing line and shoot all day
> without swabbing the bore. These are pursuits beyond the scope of what
> traditionalists are about.
>
> Back then their rifles and fusils cost them a higher percentage of their
> annual
> earnings than ours cost today, they had to make do with what was available.
> Their life depended on whether or not their weapon worked. They survived so
> what they did must have worked well enough.
>
> If we are to learn from what they knew; we must do what they did --- as much
> the same way --- as the centuries allow.
>
> Jim Bridger might have used it if he had it --- but he didn't!
>
> Traditional/primitive/authentic/historic/period correct is more about how you
> do things, than exactly how you look. It is a mind set. We must compromise
> enough doing without those things no longer available and those now necessary
> to preserve life, there is rare need to resort to modernism when you are
> living
> history.
>
> Often we must now choose something less common than back then; because that
> most often then used is now forbade us, for various survival, official or
> commercial reasons. It may be something as simple as the second best oil
> or it
> may require something then unknown, i.e., high tech water filters to
> protect us
> from the many poisons modern civilization has strewn about.
>
> Those simple things everyone did for themselves can still be done, each
> teaches
> something. There is always some period way or period alternative to most
> everything we use. The few forced compromises are too many.
>
> I'm sure lube is a hot topic amongst the paper puncher crowd. In the Rocky
> Mountains of the early nineteenth century paper was too precious a
> commodity to
> waste on such foolishness.
>
> I have been speaking to those who regularly use, mostly, one gun. The
> mountain
> men. Those who seriously seek learning all: the old ways have to teach.
>
> For those maintaining collections of rarely used weapons there is another
> traditional method which can dependably prevent rust over long storage in
> humid
> or dry areas. It enriches and preserves the wood and protects the metal.
> After one or two annual treatments it should not require more than a dry swab
> dusting of the bore every year or so and regular dry cotton cloth dusting of
> the surface. It is efficacious on smokepoles used everyday as well. Contact
> me off-line for more information.
> I try not to peddle here.
>
> John...
>
> John T. Kramer, maker of:
>
> Kramer's Best Antique Improver
> >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
> >>>As good as old!<<<
>
> <http://www.kramerize.com/>
>
> mail to: <[e-mail]>






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: tigrbo1 <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tinware
Date: 21 Mar 1999 19:01:52 -0800

Silly Kiwi,

   Make haste to your nearest sutler or catalog and for god sake get yourself
some earthenware tankards or cups, women folk make war over burned lips, many
deaths...

Best regards,

Terry Smith

The Brooks wrote:

> Morning all,
> While on the subject, how do you drink out of a tin cup without it burning
> your lips off as the tin transfers the heat something wicked? Is there some
> secret to it or do you just have to wait for your tea or coffee to cool down
> which is the technique that I use at present. I had thought of putting a
> band aid at the drinking point. Any comments?
> Kia Ora
> Big Bear
> In  Sun Rising overcast Marlborough New Zealand.







-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John L. Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Apache/Fur trade contact question
Date: 22 Mar 1999 09:16:06 -0500

Jim,

You will want to take a look at David J. Weber, THE TAOS TRAPPERS, available
in paperback from the University of Oklahoma Press. Weber discusses
relations between trappers and Apaches in a number of places in this
excellent book.

John

Dr. John L. Allen
21 Thomas Drive
Storrs, CT 06268
860/487-1346
[e-mail]


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, March 21, 1999 10:05 PM


> Hello the list,
>     While I know later on Kit Carson dealt with the Apache as an Indian
Agent
> (1857 or so), was there any earlier interaction between the Apache and
south
> western Mountain Men during the fur trade era? If so, any trading?
>     I haven't come across any references in either Apache history or my
> limited shelf of mountain man books, but Taos is right there where they
were.
>
> Thanks for your time,
> Jim
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Apache/Fur trade contact question
Date: 22 Mar 1999 07:40:56 -0700 (MST)

Jim,

Bill Williams had a run in with them in the white mountains. According to
Hafen, they relieved him of all his goods and sent him walking back to
Zuni. You may also want to read The narratives of James Ohio Pattie. Pattie
and his father had some relations with them at the Santa Rita copper mines.

Hope this helps

Vic

>Hello the list,
>    While I know later on Kit Carson dealt with the Apache as an Indian Agent
>(1857 or so), was there any earlier interaction between the Apache and south
>western Mountain Men during the fur trade era? If so, any trading?
>    I haven't come across any references in either Apache history or my
>limited shelf of mountain man books, but Taos is right there where they were.
>
>Thanks for your time,
>Jim


Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin

AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party
"Aux aliments du pays!"

Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona
Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube
Date: 22 Mar 1999 08:09:28 -0700

Lanney,

I agree with what you stated on lubes, [ "firing line", military or
sporting ]. When still living near Estes Park CO we had a monthly shoot that
became very popular with up to 40-50 shooters, good prizes, etc.

At one shoot a pair of gentlemen drove in and parked their Bentley sedan,
that causes a lot of looks. They came up and asked "if they could partake in
the shooting event." That was where we should have been tipped off, a pair
of ringers. They were shooting original cased English Sporting rifles, very
fancy and they had a pre-mixed lube that had a manufacture date of 1881.
From the auto, weapons and dress these blooks were no run of the mill
shooters, after a few matches some side money was wagered and the mighty
mountainmen had their butts kicked royally by some very fine shooting.

After the days events had come to an end, I was given a sample of the lube
and the address of the firm in London that produced this lube from 1881 to
date. will have to dig up address for those interested.

Oh, after several other shooting events we got to know Lord Bradburn and his
man James, years later we read about the gentlemen that lived near Estes
Park. Turns out Lord Bradburn was the person that Flemming wrote about
during World War II, James Bond.  Brother did that club have fun running
around telling other buckskinners they had their butts kicked by James Bond
in a shooting match.  I'm sure that several on this list will remember Lord
Bradburn and the Buckhorn Skinners of Masonville CO.

The real funny thing was Charles E.Hanson Jr. was a member of that club and
knew all about the lube and the guns the gentlemen were shooting and wasn't
surprised of who they were, he said "as one watching I knew they were both
very professional in the handling of weapons and themselves".

Later

Buck
________________________________-
-----Original Message-----


>I agree as well.  Manufactured lubes were created for the "firing line",
military
>or sporting.  I imagine such lubes appeal to those who shoot 20-30 shots on
a
>modern walk-through.
>
>Larry Huber
>
>Ratcliff wrote:
>
>> Got to agree with you when you're right, John.  Got to.
>> Lanney
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 6:53 PM
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube
>>
>> "Slicker 'n Willie Lube"
>>
>> Are you sure? He's slicker than snake snot.
>>
>> I am really having trouble believing anyone before 1930 spent much time
>> sitting
>> around chatting up the fine qualities of some mysterious flocum called
X?X?X?
>> patch lube. I don't think the conversation really heated up until after
1970.
>>
>> I've never encountered any early nineteenth century commercial offerings
or
>> specific recipes for patch lube.  There may be some; at best it was
uncommon.
>>
>> Back when, back East, folks used a lot of blended tallow and beeswax
(often
>> with a little of various minerals, trees, critters, plants and oils) for
just
>> about everything. Most common folks had some sort of oil or grease and
>> perhaps
>> any of several other things. Most folks in the mountains weren't making
up
>> much in the way of fancy concoctions. Especially if the ingredients cost
>> money.
>>
>> No mountain man in his right mind would waste good whiskey and squaw
money on
>> something always available free -- some sort of grease, oil or fat. It's
>> plumb
>> easy to render out the little you need. Maybe include a few leaves or
berries
>> to improve the smell, but not likely. We all ought to be carrying around
a
>> bait box. That'd be real fragrant on a hot summer day.  I doubt any of
the
>> "Beaver" men much cared about something smelling nice.
>>
>> Warn't they called spit patches? Hasn't anyone just tried chewing on the
end
>> of a rag? It works pretty damn well. (I've been composing this over the
past
>> few days and finally we have the first mention of spit from Dennis
Fisher.
>> Thanks.
>>
>> P.S. Paraffin is a modern petroleum wax.
>>
>> The last time we had this discussion all kinds of modern witches brews
were
>> being touted for greasing and cleaning.
>>
>> I still maintain the old timers used whatever grease they had available
(more
>> likely than not rendered from a bear's belly, a beaver's tail or a
buffalo's
>> hump).
>>
>> They may have mixed it with a little castor to keep their scent down and
leave
>> a tantalizing trail for furry gold.  Whatever needed grease probably got
a
>> coat
>> of what they had.  Gun, Moc's whatever.
>>
>> For those that prefer not to render their own fat. The finest gun, or any
>> other, grease of the day was sperm oil. The best natural substitute for
sperm
>> oil today is jojoba oil. This is one case where I suggest using the
>> substitute
>> due to the current shortage of whales. I just soak patches long ahead of
time
>> and they always seem to work pretty good. It's those old nasty dirty
>> strips of
>> rag tied to my shooting bag, where they're handy. Carry a few strips dry:
to
>> chew and swab with, handy for char.  If you ain't got spit you're close
to
>> trouble.
>>
>> Pure neatsfoot (NOT COMPOUNDED) oil, is a good alternative for those
without
>> bear oil or other rendered fat for use on leather.  Jojoba is expensive
to use
>> on leather.  Neatsfoot will work on patches too.
>>
>> Read the list archive for my suggestion on period gun cleaning solvent.
It's
>> free. It requires no extra packaging. Comes in its own container. Handy
>> dispenser. Everybody has a ready supply, or they die. Water works.
>>
>> The usual excuse is folks want to protect the investment they made in
their
>> fancy smoke pole, or they want to stand on a firing line and shoot all
day
>> without swabbing the bore. These are pursuits beyond the scope of what
>> traditionalists are about.
>>
>> Back then their rifles and fusils cost them a higher percentage of their
>> annual
>> earnings than ours cost today, they had to make do with what was
available.
>> Their life depended on whether or not their weapon worked. They survived
so
>> what they did must have worked well enough.
>>
>> If we are to learn from what they knew; we must do what they did --- as
much
>> the same way --- as the centuries allow.
>>
>> Jim Bridger might have used it if he had it --- but he didn't!
>>
>> Traditional/primitive/authentic/historic/period correct is more about how
you
>> do things, than exactly how you look. It is a mind set. We must
compromise
>> enough doing without those things no longer available and those now
necessary
>> to preserve life, there is rare need to resort to modernism when you are
>> living
>> history.
>>
>> Often we must now choose something less common than back then; because
that
>> most often then used is now forbade us, for various survival, official or
>> commercial reasons. It may be something as simple as the second best oil
>> or it
>> may require something then unknown, i.e., high tech water filters to
>> protect us
>> from the many poisons modern civilization has strewn about.
>>
>> Those simple things everyone did for themselves can still be done, each
>> teaches
>> something. There is always some period way or period alternative to most
>> everything we use. The few forced compromises are too many.
>>
>> I'm sure lube is a hot topic amongst the paper puncher crowd. In the
Rocky
>> Mountains of the early nineteenth century paper was too precious a
>> commodity to
>> waste on such foolishness.
>>
>> I have been speaking to those who regularly use, mostly, one gun. The
>> mountain
>> men. Those who seriously seek learning all: the old ways have to teach.
>>
>> For those maintaining collections of rarely used weapons there is another
>> traditional method which can dependably prevent rust over long storage in
>> humid
>> or dry areas. It enriches and preserves the wood and protects the metal.
>> After one or two annual treatments it should not require more than a dry
swab
>> dusting of the bore every year or so and regular dry cotton cloth dusting
of
>> the surface. It is efficacious on smokepoles used everyday as well.
Contact
>> me off-line for more information.
>> I try not to peddle here.
>>
>> John...
>>
>> John T. Kramer, maker of:
>>
>> Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>> >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
>> >>>As good as old!<<<
>>
>> <http://www.kramerize.com/>
>>
>> mail to: <[e-mail]>
>
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Charlie P. Webb" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:history channel--the mountain man
Date: 22 Mar 1999 10:15:39 -0700

Howdy all,
In response to Hawks comments, I too think the Mountain Men
show was great.  Yes, there were some boo boo's, showing the close
up of a smooth bore and calling it a rifle caused a chuckle, but to
me I took it as entertainment and don't plan to modify my outfit
or accoutrements to comply with anything shown in the film.  I do
believe that our own HB Crawford did an outstanding job with his
input.  I personally would have liked to have seen and heard more
of his input than some that the editors choose to show. In my
estimation "GOOD JOB" Henry!!!  I also saw some other familiar
faces which contributed to my enjoyment of the production.  Speaking
only for myself, I think that the release time for this production
was well choosen, as there are many of us that need a break from
the monotony of  "Lodge Feaver"  and also need a kick in the pants
to finish up those winter projects cause  ronnievou is just around
the corner.  For me, the movie was fun, perhaps not not gospel but
fun anyway.  I could have watched another couple of hours without
even thinking of that delicious indian treat popping corn.
Respectfully,
C Webb



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David & Evelyn Mullen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Apache/Fur trade contact question
Date: 22 Mar 1999 11:02:12 -0700

You may also want to look at _Savage Scene: The Life and Times of the
Mountain man Jim Kirker_ by William Cochran McGaw, High Lonesome Books,
1972. Kirker was a notorious scalp hunter and was offered $200 per scalp
by the Mexican government.

Hope this helps,
David

--
David & Evelyn Mullen
202 Mesa Verde
Jemez Springs, NM 87025
505.829.3212
email:[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Apache/Fur trade contact question
Date: 22 Mar 1999 14:20:58 -0500 (EST)

Wouldn't you know it, I lent the book I wanted to tell ya about to a
neighbor.  The book is called Life among the Apache Indians.  It is a diary
of a gent who traded, lived along side of and fought the apache indians.  I
have not yet read the book but it looked pretty good.  If you are interested
let me know and I will call the guy I lent it to and get all the pert. info
for you.

Frank V. Rago





At 11:02 AM 3/22/99 -0700, you wrote:
>You may also want to look at _Savage Scene: The Life and Times of the
>Mountain man Jim Kirker_ by William Cochran McGaw, High Lonesome Books,
>1972. Kirker was a notorious scalp hunter and was offered $200 per scalp
>by the Mexican government.
>
>Hope this helps,
>David
>
>--
>David & Evelyn Mullen
>202 Mesa Verde
>Jemez Springs, NM 87025
>505.829.3212
>email:[e-mail]
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Apache/Fur trade contact question
Date: 22 Mar 1999 15:03:11 EST

get a copy of "Apache Wars"  a illustrated battel history BY e. Lesley
reedstron IBSN 1-56619-959-X at barns and nobel---good reference book
also look at "The Apache"  by mall---dont have my copy handy but it is
like his book "Mystic warriers of the plains" except it is only about the
apache  both books cover the time period in question and would give you
more info than you can absorb in a week's reading---especially the one
written by Moll.

"HAWK"
Michael pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor Florida  34684
E-mail:   [e-mail]

On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:20:58 -0500 (EST) [e-mail] writes:
>
>Frank V. Rago
>
>
>
>
>
>At 11:02 AM 3/22/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>You may also want to look at _Savage Scene: The Life and Times of the
>>Mountain man Jim Kirker_ by William Cochran McGaw, High

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube
Date: 22 Mar 1999 14:09:59 -0600

   >"Slicker 'n Willie Lube"
   >Are you sure?á He's slicker than snake snot.á
   >John...
Hey John T.,sounds like your in bentonite country!

Jeff Powers,A mind like a steel trap:Rusty and illegal in 37 states!

"They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin 1698

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: carrying loaded rifles
Date: 22 Mar 1999 14:21:52 -0600



>
> >How long do you suppose a loaded muzzleloader was carried before it was
> >discharged and loaded fresh? If a man's life depended on his rifle firing,
> >it would seem he would have to consider dampness, condensation, etc. so
> >there would be some limit to the dependability of a loaded rifle.
>

I have seen many references to colonial period frontiersmen drawing their loads,
cleaning and recharging their pieces each evening.  I can only assume that this
procedure was followed into the period of the Rocky Mtn. fur trade.   J.D.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "The Brooks" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Tinware
Date: 23 Mar 1999 19:13:11 +1200


Terry,   Replied;


>Silly Kiwi,
>
>   Make haste to your nearest sutler or catalog and for god sake get
yourself
>some earthenware tankards or cups, women folk make war over burned lips,
many
>deaths...


I bought it from Col Williamsburg.. it did look so neat sitting there......
Have just come back from a Rondy in the mountains and I tried the band aid
idea...Might look silly and might not be period correct BUT IT WORKS!!

"Many Deaths"..... Sounds like a good A.K.A. for some women folk that I
know.....Just kidding Ladies

Kia Ora
Big Bear
In warm and windy Marlborough New Zealand.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Laughlin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: carrying loaded rifles
Date: 22 Mar 1999 13:19:27 -0800

Think you are correct on that.  Sure wouldn't want a damp load if my life depended
on it. How long do you think they would have left a load in??  I'd like to know as
the guys seem to load an shoot out here.

John Dearing wrote:

> >
> > >How long do you suppose a loaded muzzleloader was carried before it was
> > >discharged and loaded fresh? If a man's life depended on his rifle firing,
> > >it would seem he would have to consider dampness, condensation, etc. so
> > >there would be some limit to the dependability of a loaded rifle.
> >
>
> I have seen many references to colonial period frontiersmen drawing their loads,
> cleaning and recharging their pieces each evening.  I can only assume that this
> procedure was followed into the period of the Rocky Mtn. fur trade.   J.D.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube
Date: 22 Mar 1999 16:38:56 -0600

Buck,

Yep, think I remember seeing some, a quick perusal of #142 (my most current
and
only copy) revealed none.

I've seen nothing to convince me they are old - enough.  There weren't any I
felt the need to collect.

Of the 30,000 or so recipes I've collected from original sources; I remember
seeing none for patch lube or gun oil pre-1840.

A pre-1840 Sharps manual?  That's got to be pretty rare.

I wouldn't be surprised if some military manual somewhere had a defined
specification, applicable to the military.  Be nice to know what they thought
was best.

I did notice Dixie offers pre-mixed and component sheep tallow and beeswax --
for sale.  Ought to be just right.  Performance will vary with proportions.
Haven't tried theirs.  Too easy to make, if buying rendered fat just be
sure it
isn't salted.  In one area Dixie suggests a modern brand name vegetable
shortening for lubing late period (for us, at best) revolvers.

The traditional way is to chose a grease which is readily available and
replenish able; and stick with it.  A fat fish will do.  Or there is something
to learn in trying all the period alternatives.

I'd be interested to hear of extensive and varied testing of the several
period
oils and greases on guns and leather and hearing of any performance
differences.

Anybody want a project?  I already got enough I'm behind on.  I would be
willing to help in defining testing criteria and methodology.  Determine what
was really the best of what they had to work with, not what they could have
possibly done given broader trade and commerce than actually existed.  I know
how they were rated in the early nineteenth century, I know how I rate them,
and I am familiar with a few of the many ways the materials were used to
specific purpose.  I could help someone get started.

If I had to guess; beaver fat was the most common grease used by pre-1840
trappers in the Rocky Mountains, Canada to Mexico.  I'm sure they used it for
everything.  I think they probably kept themselves and most everything they
owned slicked down with it.  Inside and out.  If they had a fat cow and needed
grease I'm sure that's what they used.  They used what they had.  It was
something done too insignificant to merit mention.  Everybody did it.  Except
some fancy and catered to folks out wandering around.

I've not seen evidence they used much of anything else?  I have seen a few
ledger entries for grease by the keg and barrel, usually listed under rations,
other than that, a few small quantities of specialty oils and waxes. like
sweet
oil and sealing wax, on trade lists.  I've never seen patch lube or gun oil
mentioned pre-1840.

Old ways can be cheap and are simple.  They were often both back then.  They
can be the same now.

Mountainmen eat beaver!  You can bet on it.  Though they used of all the parts
of the critters taken, they of course didn't use all the parts available.
Just
as the natives didn't use every part of every buffalo killed.  There was too
much byproduct of the harvest for all of it to have been utilized.  They
hunted
other game for variety but the focus of their hunting was beaver.  Meat's
meat.  At the end of a long cold wet day after day, its surprising what tastes
real good.  Especially if you don't have to get up and go find it.

No one wasted real gold money on something abundantly free.  If they had food
they had fat.  If they had beaver they had food.  They used the fat and ate
the
food they had.

They may not have always needed to render the fat.  It may work differently?
Better or worse?  To which purpose?

Simply eating kept them pretty well greased up.  I don't think they spent a
lot
of time thinking about it.

John...


At 07:41 PM 3/21/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Take a look at old Dixie Gun works catalogs, over the last 25-30 year's
>Turner has had many recipes for patch lube and have seen recipes in several
>Sharpes manuals for their front stuffer's before the breech loader came in.
>
>Buck Conner
>

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Buck Connor's comments
Date: 22 Mar 1999 16:53:18 -0600

Buck
The post you were replying to was from Laurel Huber, not from me.  It =
was a great post nontheless.  The story sort of belies the notion that =
James Bond always shot a pipsqueak .25 auto.
Lanney




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: carrying loaded rifles
Date: 22 Mar 1999 18:44:55 EST


>John Dearing wrote:
>
>> >
>> > >How long do you suppose a loaded muzzleloader was carried before
>it was
>> > >discharged and loaded fresh? If a man's life depended on his
>rifle firing,
>> > >it would seem he would have to consider dampness, condensation,
>etc. so
>> > >there would be some limit to the dependability of a loaded rifle.
>> >
>>
>> I have seen many references to colonial period frontiersmen drawing
>their loads,
>> cleaning and recharging their pieces each evening.  I can only
>assume that this
>> procedure was followed into the period of the Rocky Mtn. fur trade.
> J.D.
>
JD
I may be one of those werd ones(BG) but I have been using and hunting
with my old rifle gun for over 40 years and have loaded it on opening day
of deer season and left the load in it for over a week and have never had
a problem with a misfire---you get that problem when you clean the gun
and dont get all the oil and moisture out---I snap 3 or 4 caps and make
sure the nipple is clear and dry--take a bit of beeswax and wipe around
the nipple and cap her up---seals her up like a suppository rifle and
even when carrying it out in the weather have not had bad hang fires or
those that were noticably to me---you must have a good fitting nipple and
the cap must fit tight---if it doesnt then it truly will draw
moisture---if you were required to reload every day or so look at the
amount of powder you would be using in a years time and look at all the
old guns that are found loaded today---trick is the good fitting nipple
to cap combination---I have to use a knife to remove the cap once i have
installed it---my brother has a flinter which he squirrel hunts with and
he keeps it loaded all the time when he is ready to shoot it he picks the
tough hole and primes it and it always goes off --and fast too---real
dependable--during turkey season I had my trade gun loaded for 4 days
before i shot it and she didn't misfire or hang---You got to know the
capability of your gun--some i have seen just wont keep the charge dry
for a extended period and others you will have no problem with of any
kind---kina like other things---have to know the proper care and feeding
of the animal in question---

most of the guys believe you shold shoot out the load each day and start
over each day--it's really up to you and how you have cared and
maintained that old fire stick---remember if black powder drew as much
moisture as some would have you believe then there would not be such a
thing a black powder supposotory shells---the trick is keep the firestick
dry and free of oil and moisture as much as possibly---have a cows nee
for my flinter and it will go off even in the rain and moist climate-- if
it has dry prime and ther is no moisture in and around the touch
hole---saw dale black fall in the creek with his flint gun and it went
under water---he got up shook it off and shot it was in a match---some of
your flint locks have what is called a waterproof pan---that is where the
frizzen is in full contact to the pan and there is a channel all around
the frizzen and pan so that the moisture can drain away from the pan and
not get on or near the touch hole---the durs egg lock is a good example
of this water proof type pan.  remember everyone has their personal
preference to how long to have a load in a gun but it comes down to
really it's up to you and what your gun likes---

"HAWK"
Michael pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor Florida  34684
E-mail:   [e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube
Date: 22 Mar 1999 18:45:37 EST

John Kramer writes:

> Anybody want a project?  I already got enough I'm behind on.  I would be
>  willing to help in defining testing criteria and methodology.  Determine
what
>  was really the best of what they had to work with, not what they could have
>  possibly done given broader trade and commerce than actually existed.  I
> know how they were rated in the early nineteenth century, I know how I rate
them,
>  and I am familiar with a few of the many ways the materials were used to
>  specific purpose.  I could help someone get started.

John,
I will take you up on your offer, but in a very narrow sense.  Last fall, I
saved all the hard tallow from the rump area of our fat eastern whitetails for
this very purpose.  I rendered and clarified it and ended up with about a
quart of deer tallow.  I also have a large supply of beeswax.

Why would they mix tallow and beeswax?  What purpose does the addition of the
wax serve?  Was it more of a waterproofing agent for use generally, and used
incidentally as a patch lube.  Treating a wooden stock with the mixture might
have some preservative effect on the wood, and it could also be used on
mocassins and other leather items.

However, this lube thing raises more questions than I have seen answers for.
a.  If they carried and used it, where did they carry it?  Not a lot of the
guns of the period had tallow holes in the stock
b.  How was it applied to the patches?  Did they soak patch material in it
while it was hot, and then carry the patch material around?  Did they carry it
in a tin and rub the patch in it when loading?
c.  Did they cut up a bunch of lubed precuts and carry them in their shooting
bag?
d.  Did they carry lubed patch material in the patchbox of the gun?
e.  Did they even use lube on their patches since a lot of them carried
smoothbores which they didn't patch?

I can think of 20 or 30 more questions that I have never seen documented
answers for.  We all know how we do it today.  Just how did they do it then?

Dave Kanger



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: carrying loaded rifles
Date: 22 Mar 1999 19:04:55 EST

In response to JD's answer Pat writes:

> Think you are correct on that.

I'm not so sure.  JD provided documentation for military circumstances.
Pulling a ball would require running a screw into it and messing up the ball.
The military might have had a good supply of balls to issue, but I think that
ruining a ball every night in the wilderness environment would not be done.
That would necessitate that it be melted down and recast.  I don't think that
the Mountain Man would have done that.  He had enough to do without creating
more work for himself.

>Sure wouldn't want a damp load if my life depended on it. How long do you
think they would have left a load in??

Why do you think that the load would be damp in the first place?  I have left
my gun loaded for several months at a time and it always fired, even under
damp conditions.  I clear the pan and stick a toothpick in the touchhole.
Others have used feathers for this purpose.  Original guns are discovered
every day that are still loaded after 100 years or more, and they still go
off.  Black powder don't spoil.  If you use way too much patch lube, then it
might leach into the powder, but I don't think it would render the whole load
unfireable.

I carried my smoothbore during Colorado's elk season last fall in early
October.  It snowed, rained, and the sun shone bright.  In the midst of
packing up camp, I neglected to unload it.  It came back to Illinois through
several climate changes, and went into the basement.  I then taught 2 Hunter
Ed classes, and remembering that it was still loaded at that point, used it to
demonstrate how one could tell if a black powder gun was actually loaded.  It
went back into the basement until the end of November where I took it to the
Ft. DesChartres WoodsWalk.  It was rainy and the fog was so thick you could
cut it with a knife.  They made me shoot the gun before starting the walk.  It
fired flawlessly.

Methinks that those who insist that powder will get damp dost protest too
much.  It's 20th century mindset that does that.

Dave Kanger

I'd like to
> know as
>  the guys seem to load an shoot out here.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Apache/Fur trade contact question
Date: 22 Mar 1999 18:29:26 -0600

"Life Among the Apaches" by John C. Cremony
Originally written in 1868 by the man who was interpreter to the U.S.
boundry commission in the years 1849,50,&51.

I enjoyed the book enouph to read it twice.

Tony


-----Original Message-----


>Hello the list,
>    While I know later on Kit Carson dealt with the Apache as an Indian
Agent
>(1857 or so), was there any earlier interaction between the Apache and
south
>western Mountain Men during the fur trade era? If so, any trading?
>    I haven't come across any references in either Apache history or my
>limited shelf of mountain man books, but Taos is right there where they
were.
>
>Thanks for your time,
>Jim
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rick Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Horn and scrimming...
Date: 22 Mar 1999 17:27:10 +0000


------ =_NextPart_000_01BE7489.384C0400
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

If you paint the horn with poster paint (white) then scratch through =
this to make your lines.  Ink this with waterproof ink or I like =
artist's oil paint.  Once this has dried wash the poster paint off and =
the only thing that should remain are the inked sections.

Good Luck
Rick


-----Original Message-----
Sent:    Friday, March 19, 1999 4:30 AM

I have a good horn... polished and thinned, smoothed, etc... I want to =
try
to do some scrimshaw on it... my first attempt.  How do I keep the ink =
from
getting into other cracks in the horn when I start applying it?
*chuckles*.. and before someone says it.. I know... veeerrryyy =
carefully...
Someone told me to use beeswax and scrim thru it, but that is a real =
pain in
the butt.  Any better ideas?

Addison Miller
aka Sean





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------ =_NextPart_000_01BE7489.384C0400--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buck Connor's comments
Date: 22 Mar 1999 17:53:34 -0700

Members,

I have been looking for the address of the London company that made the
lube, no luck yet. But I found the information on the guns these gentlemen
were shooting; a Rupp 1/2 stock prec. in 45 cal. and a Twigg 1/2 stock
flintlock conv. to prec. in 50 cal. Both guns were in NRA excellent
condition. Years later I have found information that Flemming had used
accounts from British records on a 1/2 dozen agents during World War II for
his character - James Bond. The whole club enjoyed the experience and we
still talk about these two and their excellent shooting ability, what a tale
that we all will carry to our graves.

Buck
________________________
-----Original Message-----


Buck
The post you were replying to was from Laurel Huber, not from me.  It was a
great post nontheless.  The story sort of belies the notion that James Bond
always shot a pipsqueak .25 auto.
Lanney







-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube
Date: 22 Mar 1999 18:00:18 -0700

John,

Think how greased up one get's after cutting up an elk or deer, can you see
how dirty these groups would get without a good soap or lots of warm water,
it would be caked on.

Buck
-----Original Message-----


>Buck,
>
>Yep, think I remember seeing some, a quick perusal of #142 (my most current
>and only copy) revealed none.
>
>
>They may not have always needed to render the fat.  It may work
differently?
>Better or worse?  To which purpose?
>
>Simply eating kept them pretty well greased up.  I don't think they spent a
>lot of time thinking about it.





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: carrying loaded rifles
Date: 22 Mar 1999 18:25:05 -0700

Dave,
I have done the same thing with my fowler, hunted elk in Colorado but didn't
have to leave, so the temperature change wasn't a problem, but wiped it down
and set it in the safe, then spaced it out for 6 months. When I remembered
it I was sick thinking the bore would be "ringed", pulled the ball, cleaned
it and its fine.

I am sure the reason its not ringed is because of the patch lube used, an
oil base, if it had been water base that may have been a different story I'm
afraid. We have all seen what old lubes that failed and what was done to the
bores of many originals.

In the late 50's I bought a blunderbust (boarding weapon), original in
excellent condition, brass barrel, all the proof marks checked it out to be
a 1780's inspected piece from London. Never looked at the bore, quess
because the rest looked so good and everything worked, even had an old
French amber flint. Anyway after playing with it and rubbing it down with
some fine gun oil, I decided to clean the bore. Low and behold the damn
thing was loaded, I had dropped the hammer several times, good thing the
flint was dull.

After pulling out wads of patching, broken glass and a few cut nails, I got
two charges of powder - the first one out of the barrel was very coarse, the
second was like cigar ash. Both were dry, so with a good flint and some fire
in the pan that old baby would have done some proud talking, I'd probably
need to be cleaned up with a garden hose.

We lit a small amount of each powder in the ash tray the first one acted
like you would think with a good flash, the fine powder just smoked. Have no
idea how old either one was.

Buck

-----Original Message-----


>>Sure wouldn't want a damp load if my life depended on it. How long do you
>think they would have left a load in??
>Original guns are discovered every day that are still loaded after 100
years or more, >and they still go off.  Black powder don't spoil.  If you
use way too much patch lube, >then it might leach into the powder, but I
don't think it would render the whole load >unfireable.
>
>I carried my smoothbore during Colorado's elk season last fall in early
>October.  It snowed, rained, and the sun ..................
>
>Methinks that those who insist that powder will get damp dost protest too
>much.  It's 20th century mindset that does that.
>
>Dave Kanger





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: carrying loaded rifles
Date: 22 Mar 1999 20:06:31 -0600

> >I may be one of those werd ones(BG) but I have been using and hunting
> >with my old rifle gun for over 40 years and have loaded it on opening day
> >of deer season and left the load in it for over a week and have never had
> >a problem with a misfire---you get that problem when you clean the gun
> >and dont get all the oil and moisture out---"HAWK"

Good to hear from you Hawk.  It's been years since we competed against one
another in NRA high power at Marshall MO, as well as at an occasional rendezvous.
Just figured out, for sure, who you were when you mentioned Ole Grizz patch lube.
I was just beginning to attend rendezvous, and my service rifle scores weren't
anything
to write home about, so you probably don't remember me, but anyway...

I agree with everything you said, so I usually leave my guns loaded through Mo deer
season, unless I have something to  shoot at. ;-) Since I shoot flinters, I plug the
vent
with a feather, and leave the gun on an enclosed porch, locked in the Jeep, or in an
unheated tent to prevent condensation from forming in the bore due to temperature
changes.

One year, I hunted for two days in frosty, misty, weather, and in snow the
third day. As I crawled out from under a huge cedar tree at the end of the day, quite
a
large amount of snow fell right smack dab on the barrel/lock of the rifle. Wiped it
off
pretty quick, and reprimed, hunted my way back to the house, and cleared the gun
before going inside.  She went off after only a short ppfffffft.  Hit the gong dead
center
too. That was in my younger days when I did quite a bit of shooting, so the hang fire
didn't bother me the least bit. ;-)

My last post was a response to someone who ask how often the old timers cleaned
their guns. I only answered with results of my research, but if my firelock misfires,
I'm only out some fresh meat, and not my life. If put in the same circumstances of
life and death, I would probably clean and recharge every evening too, assuming
that particular gun was fired earlier that day. The author didn't say.  I'm sure the
powder and ball were saved and re-used at some point, but nothing was said about
that.

Remember, the loads were drawn, not fired at the end of the day. Saves powder,
and ball, and won't alert the savages to your position.
Your Humble Servant
  J.D.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: patch lubes
Date: 22 Mar 1999 20:25:05 -0600



> >I've not seen evidence they used much of anything else?  I have seen a few
> >ledger entries for grease by the keg and barrel, usually listed under rations,
> >other than that, a few small quantities of specialty oils and waxes. like
> >sweet oil and sealing wax, on trade lists.  I've never seen patch lube or gun oil
> >mentioned pre-1840.
>

Sweet oil, known today as olive oil was, at that time used as a lubricant. Since
my research is primarily limited to the colonial period,  I can't say when olive oil
began to be used for food preparation, but I have not seen any reference to sweet
oil being used for anything other than a lubricant in the colonial period. Patch lube?

Gun lube, yes. I have  seen several references to oiling guns with sweet oil.

Olive oil blended with bees wax makes a pretty good wood and metal preservative,
leather dressing and water proofing, as well as a pretty good hand cream and lip balm,

makes a decent emergency fire starter, and it is edible, in a pinch. OK, so I'm  a
wuss,
but my hands are soft, and my lips aren't chapped, and I'm warm and well fed.  <LOL>

Your Servant
  J.D.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube
Date: 22 Mar 1999 20:06:42 -0600

Dave,
  One pupose of the wax was to keep the lube from turning to liquid during
warm weather.  My guess is they applied their lube to the patching material
in various ways.  Either applying it to the patching cold or melted,
soaking the material in the melted lube.  It is my understanding that they
did carry lubed patches in the patch boxes, and most certainly carried them
in their hunting bags.  As far as precut or patching srtips or just a peice
of lubed material, I think it was a matter of personal preference.
Remember there were no hard fast rules concerning such things.
  As for beeswax, it is some pretty amazing stuff.  I can't explain what it
does to the inside of a gun barrel, but I really like what it does.  It
tends to seal the pores of the metal and it does a fine job of preventing
rust problems.
Pendleton

----------
> From: [e-mail]
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube
> Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 5:45 PM
>
> John Kramer writes:
>
> > Anybody want a project?  I already got enough I'm behind on.  I would
be
> >  willing to help in defining testing criteria and methodology.
Determine
> what
> >  was really the best of what they had to work with, not what they could
have
> >  possibly done given broader trade and commerce than actually existed.
I
> > know how they were rated in the early nineteenth century, I know how I
rate
> them,
> >  and I am familiar with a few of the many ways the materials were used
to
> >  specific purpose.  I could help someone get started.
>
> John,
> I will take you up on your offer, but in a very narrow sense.  Last fall,
I
> saved all the hard tallow from the rump area of our fat eastern
whitetails for
> this very purpose.  I rendered and clarified it and ended up with about a
> quart of deer tallow.  I also have a large supply of beeswax.
>
> Why would they mix tallow and beeswax?  What purpose does the addition of
the
> wax serve?  Was it more of a waterproofing agent for use generally, and
used
> incidentally as a patch lube.  Treating a wooden stock with the mixture
might
> have some preservative effect on the wood, and it could also be used on
> mocassins and other leather items.
>
> However, this lube thing raises more questions than I have seen answers
for.
> a.  If they carried and used it, where did they carry it?  Not a lot of
the
> guns of the period had tallow holes in the stock
> b.  How was it applied to the patches?  Did they soak patch material in
it
> while it was hot, and then carry the patch material around?  Did they
carry it
> in a tin and rub the patch in it when loading?
> c.  Did they cut up a bunch of lubed precuts and carry them in their
shooting
> bag?
> d.  Did they carry lubed patch material in the patchbox of the gun?
> e.  Did they even use lube on their patches since a lot of them carried
> smoothbores which they didn't patch?
>
> I can think of 20 or 30 more questions that I have never seen documented
> answers for.  We all know how we do it today.  Just how did they do it
then?
>
> Dave Kanger



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube OT
Date: 22 Mar 1999 19:52:06 -0600

If you speak of the land of sagebrush, bottomless mud and bleak mineral m=
ines
--  a long way from nowhere - no.  Quite a ways east of there.

Or do you speak of the fur trade era rapscallion Senator from here.

John...


At 02:09 PM 3/22/99 -0600, you wrote:
>=A0=A0 >"Slicker 'n Willie Lube"
>=A0=A0 >Are you sure?=A0 He's slicker than snake snot.=A0
>=A0=A0 >John...
>Hey John T.,sounds like your in bentonite country!
>

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube
Date: 22 Mar 1999 19:42:38 -0600

Dave,

Good Questions!  I ain't got all the answers.  There is a bunch we don't
really
know about grease.  Deer tallow ought to work fine.

I suspect the methods were as varied as the individuals and there may hav=
e
even
been schools of thought debated, but never recorded, over their fires.  H=
ow
much of the fire talk we have is recorded?

At least some if not all the methods you suggest were used by someone.  I=
've
carried strips of pre-lubed patch material for years, I have some 20+ yea=
r old
sperm oiled that I'd still use.  I patch my smoothbore cause it shoots
better.=20
I found carrying pre-cut patches buried in my bag inconvenient.  Strips
hanging
from the straps of the bag was easier to deal with.  I've always got a sh=
arp
knife handy to whack off a hunk.

The wax was primarily used as a thickener to ease application and transpo=
rt.=20
In waterproofing it will resist water a little longer than oil alone and =
stand
more to the surface.  Wax and oil are similar and sympathetic, chemically=
.=20
Would keep the surface covered better than plain oil in long storage.

It could have been transported in hollowed wood canteens like bait boxes.=
  It
keeps well in a small tin.  They didn't need to carry much around with th=
em,
there was always more every time they cooked or passed by the company mes=
s.
 If
they needed a lot it was available when they needed it.

I'm not sure trappers had a lot of beeswax to work with.  The honey gathe=
rs
were working as far West as Independence, MO, by 1830 --- their produce w=
as
being shipped east along with bear oil for hair pomade.  The trappers mig=
ht
have found and raided a hive?  Primarily I think they used raw and render=
ed
fat
from whatever they'd just killed when they needed it.  They may have had
favorites they'd carry a little of for their gun?  Wouldn't have been rea=
lly
necessary to always carry.

Lots more questions than answers.  Let me know if I can help with your
project.  You will learn something.  I'll be interested to hear what.

Searches on Dean's web site for grease, greece, oil, tallow and more brin=
g up
impressive listings of hits and some surprising misses.  It's a good plac=
e to
start.  Some will raise more questions.  I'm finding it a handy tool for
topical searching over a large body of excellent source materials. =20

Good luck with your project.

John...



At 06:45 PM 3/22/99 -0500, you wrote:
>John Kramer writes:
>
>> Anybody want a project?=A0 I already got enough I'm behind on.=A0 I wo=
uld be
>>=A0 willing to help in defining testing criteria and methodology.=A0 De=
termine
>what
>>=A0 was really the best of what they had to work with, not what they co=
uld
have
>>=A0 possibly done given broader trade and commerce than actually existe=
d.=A0 I=20
>> know how they were rated in the early nineteenth century, I know how I=
 rate
>them,
>>=A0 and I am familiar with a few of the many ways the materials were us=
ed to
>>=A0 specific purpose.=A0 I could help someone get started.
>
>John,
>I will take you up on your offer, but in a very narrow sense.=A0 Last fa=
ll, I
>saved all the hard tallow from the rump area of our fat eastern whitetai=
ls
for
>this very purpose.=A0 I rendered and clarified it and ended up with abou=
t a
>quart of deer tallow.=A0 I also have a large supply of beeswax.=A0=20
>
>Why would they mix tallow and beeswax?=A0 What purpose does the addition=
 of the
>wax serve?=A0 Was it more of a waterproofing agent for use generally, an=
d used
>incidentally as a patch lube.=A0 Treating a wooden stock with the mixtur=
e might
>have some preservative effect on the wood, and it could also be used on
>mocassins and other leather items.
>
>However, this lube thing raises more questions than I have seen answers =
for.
>a.=A0 If they carried and used it, where did they carry it?=A0 Not a lot=
 of the
>guns of the period had tallow holes in the stock
>b.=A0 How was it applied to the patches?=A0 Did they soak patch material=
 in it
>while it was hot, and then carry the patch material around?=A0 Did they
carry it
>in a tin and rub the patch in it when loading?
>c.=A0 Did they cut up a bunch of lubed precuts and carry them in their s=
hooting
>bag?
>d.=A0 Did they carry lubed patch material in the patchbox of the gun?
>e.=A0 Did they even use lube on their patches since a lot of them carrie=
d
>smoothbores which they didn't patch?
>
>I can think of 20 or 30 more questions that I have never seen documented
>answers for.=A0 We all know how we do it today.=A0 Just how did they do =
it then?
>
>Dave Kanger
>=20
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ron Chamberlain" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube
Date: 22 Mar 1999 19:54:21 -0700

Pendleton ,

Doesn't the wax buildup on the inside of the barrel, similar to the way
fouling builds up, making each shot harder to load?

Ron

>As for beeswax, it is some pretty amazing stuff.  I can't explain what it
>does to the inside of a gun barrel, but I really like what it does.  It
>tends to seal the pores of the metal and it does a fine job of preventing
>rust problems.

>Pendleton





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re:wabbit fur
Date: 22 Mar 1999 18:58:39 -0800

I heard that it takes about 100 rabbit skins to make a woven-strip blanket.
Given that the strips of fur curl over themselves and therefore cover less
area than flat-sewn skins, and you would want them fairly tightly woven to
keep out the wind, this seems reasonable (a patchwork quilt of 1-foot skins
would require 49 skins to cover 7 x 7 feet).
YMOS
Pat Quilter
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, March 20, 1999 8:23 PM





>
>
>
> >The blankets were strips of fine rabbit woven like you would make an  old
blanket.
> >There are warp and weft.  Mostly popular with the Southwest Indians.  I
have made 4
> >of these and they are very comfortable and warm.  Also very durable
compared to just
> >sewing large pieces of rabbit fur together.

These rabbit skin robes were also popular in the Northeast...anywhere it got
cold, as a
matter of fact.  I understand that skins taken in the middle of the winter
won't shed
nearly
as bad as those taken in late winter, or so I'm told. I'm also told that
rabbit robes
are too
warm to use above 20 degrees F.

Any truth to this? Also, how many skins are needed to make a three point
size robe, and
do you make them for sale?  <sheepish grin>       Thanks          J.D.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Barbara Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Tallow and Beeswax - Not for Patch Lube!
Date: 22 Mar 1999 19:31:41 -0800

Dave,

The reason beewswax was mixed with Tallow is not for Patch Lube!  This
was a common mixture for candles.  Tallow candles melt too fast.
Beeswax candles are too dear (expensive).  Best tallow to use is Sheep
(pork goes rancid too fast, cow a bit soft, no documentation on deer).
Thus, beeswax and sheep combo offered by Dixie would be very appropriate
for use as candling, and if you gotta candle in your shooting bag,
you've got lube!

I have NO idea how it was used, as I am very new to the shooting end of
this calling (shot my first flinter last Saturday).  I do know a bit
about the history of candlemaking.  And I know that candles were a cheap
by-product of sheep raising, so cheap that only those in the remotest
areas would bother to make their own candles, when they could trade for
a higher quality product for very little outlay in cash or trade goods.
We have documentation for mid-19th century at HBC Fort Nisqually about
just such production. We're not talking about some little old lady
dipping a few candles, we're talking about a large-scale operation
located in the Fort's slaughterhouse.

Finally, I've heard that a trapper will always carry a candle in his
shooting bag.  I assumed it was for fire starting and emergency
lighting.  Perhaps lube as well?

YMDS
-Tassee



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: Jedediah Smith's last stand
Date: 22 Mar 1999 22:34:49 -0500 (EST)

Would anyone out there know if any archaeological work was or is in
progress to discover Jed Smith's grave or burial site?  Near Santa Fe?




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: John "Jeremiah" Johnston
Date: 22 Mar 1999 22:44:36 -0500 (EST)


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Sir:
(Referencing a posted message of 13 Aug 1996)
would be interested in the complete details on JJ's reburial story
and/or ceremony, and the exact writing enscribed on memorial plaque, if
you or some other authority can help out this pilgrim.Thankee kindly.

jdm


--WebTV-Mail-1545238676-1579--



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "The Brooks" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: James Bond
Date: 24 Mar 1999 00:16:29 +1200


Just passing,
James Bond never shot anything, He was in fact an author on a book on native
birds of Jamaica. That book just happened to be sitting on a table at a
place called the gap at worlds end where Ian Fleming was writing his first
novel and looking for a name for the hero.
Kia Ora
Big Bear
In windy warm Marlborough New Zealand.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jedediah Smith's last stand
Date: 23 Mar 1999 01:05:45 EST

By archaeological work do you mean the discovery and removal of remains, or
the excavation,artifact collection and documentation?  Removal of historic
remains requires just cause, and the blessing of the Med Examiners Office.
And, if he has any Native American bloodline, the NAGPRA (Native American
Grave Repatriation Act) laws kick in.   Gee, can you fill me in...is there
reason to believe he is buried in a specific place?  I can ask around the
local contractors and at the University..



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: zaslow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RIFLING MACHINE
Date: 22 Mar 1999 22:09:32 -0800 (PST)

Pendelton,

Back a few years ago there was an excellent series in the Muzzleloader
Magazine about an early gunmaker.  When I get a chance I'll try and locate
it for you, but it went into great detail about how the guns were made by
hand.  I think it described the barrel making machine.

Give me about a week and I'll see what I can find.

Best Regards,

Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
________________________________________________________________________________

At 07:49 PM 3/19/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Where can I get detailed drawings of a rifling machine?  Some of us have a
>wild hair to build our own gun barrels.  Might want to sell one someday you
>can't ever tell.
>Pendleton
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: patch lubes
Date: 22 Mar 1999 22:06:12 -0600

J.D.,

Sweet oil has been a part of trade longer than anyone has been keeping
records.  It was and is a premium product revered throughout the centurie=
s.
 At
one time it was considered one of the great gifts from God.

Sweet oil's not bad for lubricant- but when it oxidizes (drys) it will le=
ave a
gummy coating.=A0 Several references suggest it for lubrication on tools =
and
such.=A0 Some get pretty gummed up from it with lack of use, it clings we=
ll to
metal surfaces.=A0 Over time it could gum up a lock if not regularly clea=
ned and
replenished.

I have used it for lubrication of small gears as well as bearings and rac=
es on
traditional tools like a treadle turning bench; if the tool is used regul=
arly
it works great.  If the tool remains idle for long periods of time it get=
s
gummy and takes a while to run in again.  It cleans up pretty well.  It w=
ill
protect from rust for long periods.

The small quantities I've seen attributed to the Rocky mountain fur trade
indicate it was probably used more in medicine than food or gun lube.=A0
Drugstores still sell small quantities for the same purposes.

It is one specialty oil which was certainly there (albeit in limited quan=
tity)
and far from the worst choice for all the uses you mention.  It was not c=
heap
during the period.  It was imported.  It was revered early on, as trade g=
rew
and relative cost dropped it was adapted to more and more uses.

I have a bottle in the kitchen and the shop.  Good stuff.

John...


At 08:25 PM 3/22/99 -0600, you wrote:
>
>
>> >I've not seen evidence they used much of anything else?=A0 I have see=
n a few
>> >ledger entries for grease by the keg and barrel, usually listed under
rations,
>> >other than that, a few small quantities of specialty oils and waxes. =
like
>> >sweet oil and sealing wax, on trade lists.=A0 I've never seen patch l=
ube or
gun oil
>> >mentioned pre-1840.
>>
>
>Sweet oil, known today as olive oil was, at that time used as a lubrican=
t.
Since
>my research is primarily limited to the colonial period,=A0 I can't say =
when
olive oil
>began to be used for food preparation, but I have not seen any reference=
 to
sweet
>oil being used for anything other than a lubricant in the colonial perio=
d.
Patch lube?
>
>Gun lube, yes. I have=A0 seen several references to oiling guns with swe=
et oil.
>
>Olive oil blended with bees wax makes a pretty good wood and metal
preservative,
>leather dressing and water proofing, as well as a pretty good hand cream=
 and
lip balm,
>
>makes a decent emergency fire starter, and it is edible, in a pinch. OK,=
 so
I'm=A0 a
>wuss,
>but my hands are soft, and my lips aren't chapped, and I'm warm and well
fed.=A0
<LOL>
>
>Your Servant
>=A0 J.D.
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RIFLING MACHINE
Date: 23 Mar 1999 02:17:19 -0600

Foxfire V has a section of instruction on just this subject.  Enough that=
 you
should be able to figure one out.  Sure wouldn't cost much, especially if=
 you
already have a stithy.  A small forge or torch would do if you buy blanks=
 to
rifle.  If you forge weld the barrel first, it will require a touch more
heat.=20
A fun project.

What they show is pretty much how it was done, they were just the last to
remember.  Somebody else needs to remember.

Fine, fine work was done on such.  The basics are real simple I've got a =
hunch
there's a few learning experiences in getting it to really work slick,
might be
easier than I think.  Simple country solutions to higher mathematics, it'=
s
some
of what folks used to know. =20

John...

At 10:09 PM 3/22/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Pendelton,
>
>Back a few years ago there was an excellent series in the Muzzleloader
>Magazine about an early gunmaker.=A0 When I get a chance I'll try and lo=
cate
>it for you, but it went into great detail about how the guns were made b=
y
>hand.=A0 I think it described the barrel making machine.
>
>Give me about a week and I'll see what I can find.
>
>Best Regards,=20
>
>Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
>________________________________________________________________________=
___
_____
>
>At 07:49 PM 3/19/99 -0600, you wrote:
>>Where can I get detailed drawings of a rifling machine?=A0 Some of us h=
ave a
>>wild hair to build our own gun barrels.=A0 Might want to sell one somed=
ay you
>>can't ever tell.
>>Pendleton
>>
>>
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube OT
Date: 23 Mar 1999 03:18:17 -0600

   >If you speak of the land of sagebrush, bottomless mud and bleak
   >mineral mines --  a long way from nowhere - no.  Quite a ways east
   >of there.
Thats what I was speaking of! It does'nt always work but I try to avoid talk
of politics on the history lists as it always seems to lead to 20th century
debates on current polititions. In Jeffs "Working Stiffs Dictionary" under
Politition it says ....see Liar and under Liar...see politition. Its 3am and
my spelling sucks today(need another cup of joe!

   >Or do you speak of the fur trade era rapscallion Senator from here.
Jeff Powers,A mind like a steel trap:Rusty and illegal in 37 states!

Give me a woman who truly loves beer,and I will conquer the world!

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jedediah Smith's last stand
Date: 23 Mar 1999 08:51:29 EST

The best treatment I have read on the location of Jedediahs place of death was
done by Paul Kelly entitled "The Death of Jed Smith" and appeared in the
August 98
Muzzleblasts.

Todd Glover



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john c. funk,jr" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: carrying loaded rifles
Date: 23 Mar 1999 07:29:26 -0800

A method I have used quite successfully and which is quite proper from a
historic perspective is to poke the quill end of a small bird feather in the
touch hole of your flinter to keep the charge dry.  This method produces a
tight seal, can be removed readily without breakage, even though a snug fit
can be produced and, they are readily available when walking the woods.
I have had successful discharges after a week is such a state.
Yr. Mst. Humbl.......

John Funk


-----Original Message-----


>
>>John Dearing wrote:
>>
>>> >
>>> > >How long do you suppose a loaded muzzleloader was carried before
>>it was
>>> > >discharged and loaded fresh? If a man's life depended on his
>>rifle firing,
>>> > >it would seem he would have to consider dampness, condensation,
>>etc. so
>>> > >there would be some limit to the dependability of a loaded rifle.
>>> >
>>>
>>> I have seen many references to colonial period frontiersmen drawing
>>their loads,
>>> cleaning and recharging their pieces each evening.  I can only
>>assume that this
>>> procedure was followed into the period of the Rocky Mtn. fur trade.
>> J.D.
>>
>JD
>I may be one of those werd ones(BG) but I have been using and hunting
>with my old rifle gun for over 40 years and have loaded it on opening day
>of deer season and left the load in it for over a week and have never had
>a problem with a misfire---you get that problem when you clean the gun
>and dont get all the oil and moisture out---I snap 3 or 4 caps and make
>sure the nipple is clear and dry--take a bit of beeswax and wipe around
>the nipple and cap her up---seals her up like a suppository rifle and
>even when carrying it out in the weather have not had bad hang fires or
>those that were noticably to me---you must have a good fitting nipple and
>the cap must fit tight---if it doesnt then it truly will draw
>moisture---if you were required to reload every day or so look at the
>amount of powder you would be using in a years time and look at all the
>old guns that are found loaded today---trick is the good fitting nipple
>to cap combination---I have to use a knife to remove the cap once i have
>installed it---my brother has a flinter which he squirrel hunts with and
>he keeps it loaded all the time when he is ready to shoot it he picks the
>tough hole and primes it and it always goes off --and fast too---real
>dependable--during turkey season I had my trade gun loaded for 4 days
>before i shot it and she didn't misfire or hang---You got to know the
>capability of your gun--some i have seen just wont keep the charge dry
>for a extended period and others you will have no problem with of any
>kind---kina like other things---have to know the proper care and feeding
>of the animal in question---
>
>most of the guys believe you shold shoot out the load each day and start
>over each day--it's really up to you and how you have cared and
>maintained that old fire stick---remember if black powder drew as much
>moisture as some would have you believe then there would not be such a
>thing a black powder supposotory shells---the trick is keep the firestick
>dry and free of oil and moisture as much as possibly---have a cows nee
>for my flinter and it will go off even in the rain and moist climate-- if
>it has dry prime and ther is no moisture in and around the touch
>hole---saw dale black fall in the creek with his flint gun and it went
>under water---he got up shook it off and shot it was in a match---some of
>your flint locks have what is called a waterproof pan---that is where the
>frizzen is in full contact to the pan and there is a channel all around
>the frizzen and pan so that the moisture can drain away from the pan and
>not get on or near the touch hole---the durs egg lock is a good example
>of this water proof type pan.  remember everyone has their personal
>preference to how long to have a load in a gun but it comes down to
>really it's up to you and what your gun likes---
>
>"HAWK"
>Michael pierce
>854 Glenfield Dr.
>Palm Harbor Florida  34684
>E-mail:   [e-mail]
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Lube
Date: 23 Mar 1999 10:38:41 -0500 (EST)

I am one of those guys that hates spending money so I try to do everything
myself.  I have been wondering about lubes and really do not want to purch.
any more so I just made some up.  I am using the hardened grease that I have
collected from my cooking exploits.  I mixed that with some shortening and
threw a little mink oil in for a better smell.  Melted it down and when it
was nice and liquid I soaked a pillow tickling strip then hung it out to
dry.  I will try using this on my next outing which can't be soon enough.
If you think I will run into problems please let me know since I am kinda
new at this.  A few of my older shooting friendes just use tallow for lube,
I am hoping that my mix will be just as good.

Thanks

Frank V. Rago




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: carrying loaded rifles
Date: 23 Mar 1999 09:11:16 -0700

Some notes on this subject from the Canadian fur trade:

"Our Indian friend made some preparations to follow the animal [moose], but
after going about two hundred yeards he paused a little--drew the charge
from his gun and returned..." March 16, 1820; Portage la Loche area (Back, 56)

"As usual in the evening, the fowling pieces were being washed and cleaned,
and were then not fit for use, but there was a loaded mosquet...[After the
polar bear came...] a fowling piece was quickly dried, loaded with two
balls, and fired into him, the wound was mortal..." Hudson's Bay, 1786
(Thompson, _Narrative_, 29)

One of Alexander Henry the Younger's men was accidentally killed through
horseplay with firearms. A gun was put away in the fur posts attic in the
winter. In July, it was fired in jest at a man. It went off & killed him.
1804, Red River? (Henry & Coues, I:249)

"[Le Borgne, the Hidatsa Chief] desired us to fresh prime our guns, examine
the flints, and be ready to fire at a moment's warning." 1806, Mandan
villages (Henry & Coues, I:394)

Also, in 1820, the battling Athabasca fur posts of the NWC & HBC were
electrified by hearing a gun shot near Lake Athabasca in an area where there
had been a confrontation earlier in the day. It turned out to be an HBC man
who was unloading his gun at the end of the day by firing it into the lake.
(Simpson, ?)

As always, if anyone wants more details on the references, just ask.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred


[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: carrying loaded rifles
Date: 23 Mar 1999 13:10:19 EST

[e-mail] writes:

> As always, if anyone wants more details on the references, just ask.

Angella,

All good references which you provided as usual, however none of them tell if
guns were carried loaded.  What they did provide evidence for was, that after
having been used one or more times, the guns were unloaded and cleaned at the
end fo the day.  This is totally different than carrying a loaded gun which
has not been fired.  Your one attic accident did show that they were left
loaded, and the Indian incident showed that the load was left in the gun, but
the priming was changed.

Dave Kanger



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lube
Date: 23 Mar 1999 12:06:27 -0800



[e-mail] wrote:

> I am one of those guys that hates spending money so I try to do everything
> myself.  I have been wondering about lubes and really do not want to purch.
> any more so I just made some up.  I am using the hardened grease that I have
> collected from my cooking exploits.

Frank,

Your mix of ingredients is probably fine. The bottom line is of course, does it
work? One thing that you may wish to stay away from is using grease from
"cooking exploits" as it may contain salts. The salt would of course be
detrimentle to good barrel health.

Your buddies use of tallow is appropriate and I use it too. But it is rendered
lard ,tallow  or bear grease, not bacon grease or left over cooking greases. I
remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "The Brooks" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lube
Date: 24 Mar 1999 20:08:15 +1200



Frank v Rago wrote,
I mixed that with some shortening and
threw a little mink oil in for a better smell.  Melted it down and when
it.....


I tried the same but I threw a little skunk oil in mine to make it smell
better.............

Kia Ora
Big Bear
In stormy wet Marlborough New Zealand.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tallow and Beeswax - Not for Patch Lube!?
Date: 23 Mar 1999 12:34:37 -0800



Barbara Smith wrote:

> Dave,
>
> The reason beewswax was mixed with Tallow is not for Patch Lube! <snip>
> Thus, beeswax and sheep combo offered by Dixie would be very appropriate
> for use as candling, and if you gotta candle in your shooting bag,
> you've got lube!<snip>
>
> I have NO idea how it was used, as I am very new to the shooting end of
> this calling (shot my first flinter last Saturday). <snip>
>
> Finally, I've heard that a trapper will always carry a candle in his
> shooting bag.  I assumed it was for fire starting and emergency
> lighting.  Perhaps lube as well?
>
> YMDS
> -Tassee

Tassee,

Thanks for the info on making candles. But tallow and bee's wax not used as
a lube? Whoa, gal!

As you point out rendered tallow makes a too soft candle so bee's wax was
often mixed in to stiffen the mixture. Though the question is still to be
answered as to what was used as a patch lube, it is reasonable to assume
that if rendered fat was used and bee's wax was available, a mix of the two
would travel a lot better. Perhaps carried in the form of your "trapper's
candle" or in a convenient container. In the course of "Exploratory
Archeology" I find animal fats and natural wax's will serve to fill the need
for a number of products. Patch lube, gun lube, leather treatments, water
proofings, salves and balms, emergency rations, etc. just to name a few.
Hope this rounds out the picture a bit. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Glenn Darilek <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jedediah Smith's last stand
Date: 23 Mar 1999 14:51:32 -0600

JON MARINETTI wrote:
>
> Would anyone out there know if any archaeological work was or is in
> progress to discover Jed Smith's grave or burial site?  Near Santa Fe?

I think the circumstances of his death prevented any grave or burial.
Although I am sure he would have preferred a Christian burial, to me it
would have been a shame to confine the bones of such a well-traveled
mountain man to a grave.

Iron Burner
Glenn Darilek



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Carrying loaded rifles
Date: 23 Mar 1999 16:26:33 -0600

> >I'm not so sure.  JD provided documentation for military circumstances.
> >Pulling a ball would require running a screw into it and messing up the ball.
> >The military might have had a good supply of balls to issue, but I think that
> >ruining a ball every night in the wilderness environment would not be done.
> >That would necessitate that it be melted down and recast.

My source was not reporting events taking place in the military, but rather
in hunting camps.

Why would a pulled ball need to be recast? I don't think anyone was concerned
about pinpoint accuracy, just enough accuracy to kill a deer, bear, or buffalo at
70 or so yards, usually much closer. No match accuracy needed here. Just poke
that ball back down the bore and use it on the next shot.

I am assuming that those guns had been fired earlier that day, and were cleaned
and made ready for the next day.

> >Methinks that those who insist that powder will get damp dost protest too
> >much.  It's 20th century mindset that does that.

Well,  I have had powder get damp, but at other times...no dampness, under
similar conditions. We in the twentieth century don't have to worry about
Indian attacks at dawn, or being overrun by French traders, who would kill us
just to make the point that English hunters/traders are not welcome West of the
Alleghenies.

If you were in that position, would you leave your gun loaded for an extended
period, or would you take the time to perform the maintenance to make DAMN
SURE  it works every time?

We in the twentieth century are far too secure to make such assumptions about how
often guns were cleaned and what process was used to do that, in the 18 Th. century.

Your Servant
J.D.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re:history channel--the mountain man (long)
Date: 23 Mar 1999 18:28:23 -0600

Friends,

Thank all of you for your positive input.  Looks like the show was well
received by the toughest critics of 'em all. :-)  I was proud and delighted
to recommend Dean Rudy, Todd Glover, and Rex Norman to the producers.  I
heard good comments from Greystone on how impressive all the participants
were.   My segments were shot in September about two weeks before the
Wyoming scenes were.  Bob Utley and I did ours the same day.  His was
videoed in his living room.  We were supposed to shoot my segment in Bob's
yard, but the weather was pretty wet, so we moved from his house to the
Jourdan-Backman Pioneer Farm Museum near Austin (Bob lives in Georgetown,
TX).  Unfortunately, the ideal building was about 50 feet from a road (it
was the only bldg available that had both good shelter and ample space) and
we had to stop about every 3 minutes to let traffic go by.  Mind you, as
rush hour approached, it was getting pretty aggravating, but we kept our
cool.  At one point the sound of a car got into the "moccasin" shot, but by
that time we were about ready to call it a day.

All the stuff I showed, including the red Whitney, was mine (2 duffel bags
worth) except the clay pipe.  The pipe belongs to one of my students, now
doing his internship at Bent's Fort.  I talked about many things, but there
was so much overlap between the five of us (Me, Bob, Rex, Roger, and Fred)
that much of what we all said was cut out.  I'm glad I was able to talk
about Beckwourth, and the fact that he wasn't the only black trapper.
Bob's and My comments about the Indian marriage gifts were well received by
my Lakota friend in Colorado.  Some were asking about the dog in my
segment.  He lives at the farm.  The crew wanted to move the dog, but I
thought he looked fine.  I told them that "until he starts licking his
b---s, just leave him alone."  So they did.  After all it was his home
anyway.  He entertained us by chasing after flies.

As for the other outdoor shots (rondy scenes, trapping, etc), they were
done near Pinedale, WY.  With the exception of a few anachronisms (like
golden buckskin and such) it looked alright.  Hats off to Todd, Dean, and
Rex.  They were on site and they did what they could to keep the bad stuff
away from the cameras.  Rex Norman told me yesterday that he took a blue
speckled coffee pot provided for the camp scenes and hid it.  Good move.
Kudos for Rex!  That's why I wanted those three involved.  I knew they'd
take care of things.  I didn't spot any labels on point blankets.  There
were some things the producers insisted on having in the script, like the
bit on "Jerimiah Johnson."  We tried to tell them that Johnson was mostly
myth, but our pleas  didn't work.  We also explained that the Hawken rifle
was NOT typical of mountain firearms during the Rendezvous period, but they
insisted on highlighting it anyway.  I was also a bit bothered about the
comment on the trappers learning scalping from the Indians.  The trappers
of the Rocky Mountain period may well have learned it from the plains
tribes, but they should have gone on to explain that scalping was actually
developed and encouraged by the British in the early 18th century in the
eastern woodlands.  Oh well.

About the charging of the rifle directly from the powder horn.  I know it's
a safety issue for us, (Lord knows I'd never do it) but I suspect that in a
fire fight with the Blackfeet or Arikara, a trapper probably wouldn't waste
time measuring powder.  I think we can live with that.  Especially if it's
a trapper who's intimately aquainted with his rifle, he  knows exactly how
much to use without measuring.  They didn't always measure.  We have to
make sure in our public demonstrations, however, that it's done properly
with safety in mind.

I can't really speak to what went on behind the scenes at the location
shots in Wyoming, so Dean, Rex, or Todd will have to comment on those.  My
impressions of those are merely guesswork, based on what they've told me.
I know from talking to Rex that it was damn cold.  The day the Hugh Glass
part was shot he says it was somewhere in the low 30s.  Hat's off to "Ol'
Hugh!"

I don't know when it'll be on again, but I'll try to find out and the list
will surely be the first to know.

Well, it's gettin' to be 'voo season again.  I'm sure to be out there
somewhere.  I look forward to sharing a fire with y'all, and maybe a sip or
two of Mountain Magic.

WAUGH!!!

(I'm leaving town till Monday, so I won't see any more commentary till then.)

Cheers,
HBC

****************************************
Henry B. Crawford    Box 43191
Curator of History    Museum of Texas Tech University
[e-mail]    Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
806/742-2442     FAX [phone]
              Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because It's There  ******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: James Bond
Date: 23 Mar 1999 18:38:45 -0700

If you read what was said you would see that James Bond was a fiction
character.

>I have found information that Flemming had used accounts from British
records on a >1/2 dozen agents during World War II for his character - James
Bond.


-----Original Message-----


>
>Just passing,
>James Bond never shot anything, He was in fact an author on a book on
native
>birds of Jamaica. That book just happened to be sitting on a table at a
>place called the gap at worlds end where Ian Fleming was writing his first
>novel and looking for a name for the hero.
>Kia Ora
>Big Bear
>In windy warm Marlborough New Zealand.
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "The Brooks" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: James Bond
Date: 25 Mar 1999 02:10:25 +1200


Barry Wrote


>If you read what was said you would see that James Bond was a fiction
>character.


Sorry Barry, James bond was NOT I repeat NOT a fiction character The James
Bond that Ian Fleming wrote about may have been fiction but believe me there
was a real James Bond.. My original post if you reread it will explain. How
do I know?  Well I have been to the place in Jamaica where Ian Fleming wrote
the story and more to the point I have a copy of the book By James Bond in
my hot little hand. If you want I will scan it in and e-mail the front cover
to you. Kind Regards.
Kia Ora,
Big Bear
In Warming cloudy Marlborough New Zealand.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube
Date: 23 Mar 1999 21:11:13 -0600

Ron,
  Beeswax has such a low melting point that as long as you reload in
reasonable length of time it doesn't build up at all.  If you are going to
shoot the gun and then set it aside for awhile [30 min. or so]  you need to
wipe the bore.  Also if it is extremely cold you could have some trouble.
In that case you use a mixture with less beeswax in it.
Pendleton

----------
> From: Ron Chamberlain <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube
> Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 8:54 PM
>
> Pendleton ,
>
> Doesn't the wax buildup on the inside of the barrel, similar to the way
> fouling builds up, making each shot harder to load?
>
> Ron
>
> >As for beeswax, it is some pretty amazing stuff.  I can't explain what
it
> >does to the inside of a gun barrel, but I really like what it does.  It
> >tends to seal the pores of the metal and it does a fine job of
preventing
> >rust problems.
>
> >Pendleton
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:history channel--the mountain man (long)
Date: 23 Mar 1999 22:49:33 EST

Henry and all


    Well, the Mountain Man film certainly was a lot of fun to work on. Riding
around near Green River Lake was just incredible. It was quite and education
working with a Hollywood film crew. Those guys know what they are doing.
    We also did our best to gently guide them towards authenticity, but most of
what we said feel on deaf ears. I kinda had to sympathize with the director,
cause once the folks were all assembled it would have been hard to send some
packing because their outfits didn't measure up, especially when they were all
locals. Believe me, I mentioned it. The Hollywood stereotype prevails as they
were more impressed with outfits with lots of beads and furs and long fringe
than ones of simple brain tan and linen.
    The John Colter chase scene was supposed to have some Crow tribesmen doing
the chasing, but the weather was bad and they didn't show which threw the crew
into a semi panic.
    Someone mentioned the trap setting scene with the fellow in "ear wax colored
buckskins." Well, enough said on that one. Suffice it to say, he was one of
Hollywood's favorites. Gotta love them beads and bones and fur trimmed boots.
    All in all I was fairly pleased with the outcome. It's quite educational for
the general public.
    Can't believe they spelled Dr. Gowans name wrong! And who is the McGrath from
U.C.L.A.? Can't say I know of any of his work.
    I think the best part of the whole deal was camping out with my buddies and
Chas Rauch and Rex Norman who became closer friends. That is some country them
Wind Rivers and "hallowed" ground for mountaineers.
    Thanks for the reference Henry.

Happy Trails

Todd Glover



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: carrying loaded rifles
Date: 23 Mar 1999 20:46:45 -0600

If folks are only looking for loaded guns the rock and mineral encrusted =
one
next to the Coulter stone at the museum in Moose, WY was still loaded whe=
n we
stabilized it in 1983.  I think its still there.

If some think their grease is polluting their powder they may be using to=
o
much
grease on the patch.  The only time anything wet should go down the bore =
is
when swabbing or cleaning.  Then wipe perfectly dry, lightly oil and wipe=
 dry
again.  My oiled patches are dry to the touch.  You only need a little lu=
be.

I've kept my musket loaded for over two months at a time in years past.  =
I've
lived, slept and traveled with it loaded; rain and shine.  On the trail i=
t
hangs from my saddle in a scabbard made of a folded and laced piece of el=
k
rawhide, or it is in my hand.  I once cleared a load that I'm not sure ho=
w
many
years it had been there in the humid mid-west.  Not once has my fusil
failed to
fire when I needed it to fire.  I've only found it necessary to keep the
frizzen closed or covered and the barrel stoppered with a vented tompion.

I seldom fire more than once in a day.  Usually I'll swab the bore after
shooting with a little spit and oil, if I've time to leisurely reload -- =
then
reload and perhaps not clear it for a month or so.  I have been known to =
pull
the ball, add or change the shot load and tamp the ball back in on top of=
 the
same (or improved) powder charge.

During this period it was the only gun I owned and I either lived with gr=
izzly
bears or the more dangerous (certainly more numerous) two legged critters=
.  An
empty gun makes a poor club. =20

My weapon I think was as important to me then, as to those back when.  I =
lived
a nomadic life seeking and not finding fortune as a Rocky Mountain Man.  =
For
long periods my only transport was my horses and mules --- there was no t=
ruck
at the end of the trail, there weren't no end of the trail, or home to re=
turn
to.  It was my protection and my pantry.  I trust it to work when I need =
it.

When a hunt is finished, sometimes, I'll pull the last load and clean the
bore.  I'm known to be lax on gun care and I've learned it takes real
effort to
ruin a gun.  Mine is in tip-top condition no matter the neglect and abuse.
But
then I've never used any petroleum products on it.  I've had it since '78=
.=20
It's old enough to vote. =20

The only times I've really cleaned it over the years was after a day of
shooting for fun.  Shooting blank charges at hooraws dirties things up fa=
st.=20
On the trail I became very conservative of powder and shot, I had to tran=
sport
all that I needed and I didn't want to be out if the need became critical=
.=20
Like back then it was a long way between opportunities to replenish suppl=
ies.=20
Most of the places today offer chemical jerky and parched corn

When I'm hungry I load with patched ball over swan shot over scraps of oi=
led
buckskin wadding (70 gr FF in .69 cal.), to have a fair chance at the fir=
st
toothsome thing I see.  Sleeping in griz country I drop 14 - .31 balls do=
wn in
place of the swan shot over 105 gr.  It's not a lot of fun touching this =
load
off, in an emergency you never notice.  Not for the faint of heart or a w=
eak
breech.  Proof your gun to twice your max load first.

The one thing that seems to help dependability the most is to be sure the
touchhole is clear, dribble a little powder in it and only have a scant t=
ouch
of powder in the pan.  Overfilling a pan causes more problems than anythi=
ng
else.  It really doesn't take much.

It helps that my lock has very strong springs so it throws lots of sparks=
 even
with a dull rock.  I had one hunk of red jasper that sparked hot for year=
s.=20
Stayed tight in the jaws.  Never sharpened it once.  Hated it when it fin=
ally
wore down too small, never had another so good.  It sparked thousands of
times.  Kept the nub.  =20

John...


At 01:10 PM 3/23/99 -0500, you wrote:
>[e-mail] writes:
>
>> As always, if anyone wants more details on the references, just ask.
>
>Angella,
>
>All good references which you provided as usual, however none of them te=
ll if
>guns were carried loaded.=A0 What they did provide evidence for was, tha=
t after
>having been used one or more times, the guns were unloaded and cleaned a=
t the
>end fo the day.=A0 This is totally different than carrying a loaded gun =
which
>has not been fired.=A0 Your one attic accident did show that they were l=
eft
>loaded, and the Indian incident showed that the load was left in the gun=
, but
>the priming was changed.
>
>Dave Kanger
>=20
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Laurel huber <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:history channel--the mountain man (long)
Date: 24 Mar 1999 04:44:23 -0800

Thanks, Todd, for for this post.  I hated to be the only one who felt required to address
the less desirable aspects of the film.  There's a three-point law in Hollywood when it
comes to making a film:  "If you're short of time, substitute money.  If you're short of
money, substitute time.  And if you're short of time and money...substitute someone
else's name on the credits."  The producers of the History Channel's THE MOUNTAIN MEN
were obviously short on time and money.

My daughter, who teaches school to fourth graders and has been going to Rendezvous' since
she was six, wanted me to tape the show for use in her classroom.  Halfway through the
telecast, we agreed to turn off the VCR.  She felt the pacing (or lack of it) of the film
would not hold the interest of her class.  I was just embarrassed by the misinformation.
I guess the film wasn't directed to children.

I was glad you mentioned the Day-glow orange leather on the "Sunday-go-to-meeting" skins
of men who should have been wearing the smoke and grease stained clothing of the working
stiffs who plied those streams.  I'm surprised you didn't comment on the wrist watch
featured on the guy using the telescope.

But more frustrating than the obvious continuity problems was the incorrect beaver set!
THIS in a story where the main focus was the trapping trade.  That brought me out of my
chair to correct this misinformation to the small audience that had gathered in my den to
see the telecast.

And the pain didn't stop there.  Even the dead were utilized in the "lie".  Who the hell
was the guy with the Winchester rifle?  He wasn't a Mountain Man.  Maybe an Army scout?
If so, that photo dated from the Civil or Indian War period. It was placed fairly early
in the film, too, instead of at the end when the beaver played out and the trappers were
all taking other jobs    Did the director think us "history-buffs" were too stupid to
notice?  I guess the picture wasn't directed towards us history affectionados.

I'm sorry, Todd, if I seem to be directing my frustration out on the the director of the
film.  Apparently you had a good working relationship with him.  But...it's his fault.
The Producer may have been responsible for coordinating the personnel to and from the
locations and to make sure money was spent wisely BUT the director is the guy who runs
the set and decides what shots to take.  Did he work from a shot-by-shot script or
storyboard...or did he just shoot a lotta "stuff" and cut and paste together a film back
at the editing bay?  We used to call those guys "Movieola directors"(based on the machine
that ran the 35 mm film for editing purposes).  Using today's technology, they would
probably be called "Flatbed" or "Avid directors".  These guys do very little research or
pre-planning and expect to "save it" in editing.  Well, Doctor, this patient died on the
editing table.

Do you watch a lot of History Channel?  If you do, you'll notice that the most common
type of documentary is the "single running narrator" type of film.  This is a film that
employs one guy with a great voice to explain what the film is all about.  It's
Idiot-proof.  The film images don't even have to match the narration, they just have to
be interesting.  You could close your eyes and just listen to a fairly informative
"book-on-tape".  The "medium"(visual film) is secondary to the message(historic
information).  It's lousy filmaking but good history.

But the "best" documentaries don't ignore either the filmaking OR the history.  Case in
point: Ken Burns' Civil War series.  Great images produced by the best photographers of
the era.  A terrific sound track(even if the hit theme wasn't "period"). A solid running
narrator interrupted by "actors"(not reenactors or relatives or friends of the
director)reading quotes of the actual participants.  "Talking heads" of knowledgeable and
easy to listen to contemporary experts/historians talking to us as modern visitors to
this ancient world.(God, I could listen to Shelby Foote read the phone book just to hear
his drawl!).  These scenes of dead people (still photos and dry historians}were
"sweetened" by shots of reenactors pretending to kill each other.  All this cut together
by a director who took a lot of time (substituted for money)deciding when to hold, when
to dissolve or when to cut.

Unfortunately, the producer and director of THE MOUNTAIN MEN, faced with a lack of time,
money and/or talent (you decide which) chose to ignore the Idiot-proof method and tried
to mimic the form that produced an award winning film for Ken Burns. Wrong choice.
Pernell Roberts was a good choice for narrator but he never provided the "thread"
necessary to inform us.  He started out early in the film attempting to establish himself
as "the voice of the film" but disappeared for great blocks of time.  He finally
reappeared towards the end of the film when he talked a lot, as if embarrassed by his
absence.  It's not your fault, Pernell.  You didn't choose to do that.

And it's not the fault of the "talking heads" employed (gratis, I'm sure)to give
justification to the historic aspects of the film.  I enjoyed the times they were on
camera the best.  In fact, I would have rather had Henry spend more time talking about
the stuff on his "trade blanket" than seeing shots of sparkling clean "mountain men"
posing for the camera.  You gentlemen gave validity to the enterprise by talking with
authority and conviction.  I hope the audience was awake to hear you enlighten them.
Good choice.

Great sets.  You can't beat the mountains for awe inspiring scenery.  Another good
choice.  Unfortunately, we needed a greater variety of settings to tell the scope of
these events.  We needed more river ports, more Indian villages, more fur posts.  We
didn't need the filmmakers to build expensive sets(Although location shots of Bent's Old
Fort, Fort Union, or Fort Bridger would have added much appreciated interest)...great
photos or illustrations would do.  I know...I know.  They only had so much time with so
many people to shoot this thing.  I've heard it all before.  Probably said it myself.
But a little more time, properly planned would have provided side trips in a van for
location set ups with a couple of  locals...or not, if they weren't dressed with as much
care as the sets.  A trip to the museum of the Fur Trade or the St. Louis arch would have
given the viewer a break from the same calendar shots over and over again.

God, what I wouldn't have given for a little more time spent on the equipment!  Wasn't
there time for shots of period weapons?  Even a drawing or illustration of a full stock
flintlock?  What's in the shooting bag?   How did they pack a mule?  Set a snare?  Stalk
an elk or buffalo?  I wish they had been present when everyone gutted and skinned the
buff at the AMM National a couple of years ago.  Probably not PC (Politically Correct)
enough for today's audience.  Ah, hell, it wasn't the consultants' fault. They didn't
write (or not write) the script.

Still, I wish the film would have followed the Trade chronologically.  Instead, they
chose a book chapter approach, where they cut back and forth across time to talk about
Coulter or Bridger as if they ran around together.  It might have made the Winchester
easier to bear.  It confused my daughter, who is knowledgeable, and her friends, who were
not.  Me?  I was just pissed off.  But I guess the filmmakers weren't directing the film
towards their peer group.

So, who was this film for?  What did it set out to accomplish?  Was it suppose to attract
Everyman to this period of history by being entertaining and informative?  I don't think
it succeeded at either of those goals.  It was kind of like watching home movies.
"Oh,wow!  There's the Rocky Mountains.  Gee, I used to have a set of skins like that
before I knew better.  So, that's what Crawford looks like.  Doesn't seem ugly enough to
be a Mountain Man." It was that aspect of it that kept me watching long after my wife had
fallen asleep and the kids excused themselves.  Loyalty to the Brothers.  Still, I felt
we all deserved better.  Hell, I felt the viewers at large deserved better.  And because
it was on the HISTORY channel, the audience were all history buffs after all.  They gotta
know they were cheated.  Even if loyalty kept them there.

Sorry for the essay.  It's 4 AM in Los Angeles and I couldn't sleep for thinking about
it.  I felt I copped out by ignoring the issue this long.  As a working professional for
thirty years in television and motion pictures, I felt in some way responsible for the
way this thing turned out.  Guilt by association.  Loyalty by association, too, I guess.
If anyone out there truly loved this film, it's Okay to do so.  If you hated it, you have
company.  If you worked on it as a consultant or a living prop, I absolve you of all
responsibility.  But if you produced or directed this turkey, don't forget to substitute
your names in the credits, Guys.

Just for the informational record, this address is taken out in the name of my wife,
Laurel, but I am known as:
"Shoots-the-Prairie"Larry Huber
#1517 AMM(American Mountain Men)
ATAS(Academy of Television Arts and Sciences)
AOF(Active Old Fart)


[e-mail] wrote:

> Henry and all
>
>         Well, the Mountain Man film certainly was a lot of fun to work on. Riding
> around near Green River Lake was just incredible. It was quite and education
> working with a Hollywood film crew. Those guys know what they are doing.
>         We also did our best to gently guide them towards authenticity, but most of
> what we said feel on deaf ears. I kinda had to sympathize with the director,
> cause once the folks were all assembled it would have been hard to send some
> packing because their outfits didn't measure up, especially when they were all
> locals. Believe me, I mentioned it. The Hollywood stereotype prevails as they
> were more impressed with outfits with lots of beads and furs and long fringe
> than ones of simple brain tan and linen.
>         The John Colter chase scene was supposed to have some Crow tribesmen doing
> the chasing, but the weather was bad and they didn't show which threw the crew
> into a semi panic.
>         Someone mentioned the trap setting scene with the fellow in "ear wax colored
> buckskins." Well, enough said on that one. Suffice it to say, he was one of
> Hollywood's favorites. Gotta love them beads and bones and fur trimmed boots.
>         All in all I was fairly pleased with the outcome. It's quite educational for
> the general public.
>         Can't believe they spelled Dr. Gowans name wrong! And who is the McGrath from
> U.C.L.A.? Can't say I know of any of his work.
>         I think the best part of the whole deal was camping out with my buddies and
> Chas Rauch and Rex Norman who became closer friends. That is some country them
> Wind Rivers and "hallowed" ground for mountaineers.
>         Thanks for the reference Henry.
>
> Happy Trails
>
> Todd Glover






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1st beaver skinn`in
Date: 24 Mar 1999 12:16:06 EST

To beaver skin with any kind of ease at all, you must start with and keep you
knife razor sharp.  Go to your state trappers conventions and they can assist
you more.  If you don't know how to contact them, let me know, and I will give
you someone to contact in your state.

                                                  [e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: terry l landis <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: jerky
Date: 24 Mar 1999 18:28:33 -0800

could some one share with me a period recipe for jerky/dried meat? i got
some bear to jerk for a trip.
thanks
YMHS,
  Terry L Landis

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: jerky
Date: 24 Mar 1999 21:27:40 -0600

Build a rack in the blazing sun, cut meat into long thin strips and hang =
to
dry, (optional) build a smoky fire under the meat.  Wait.

John...



At 06:28 PM 3/24/99 -0800, you wrote:
>could some one share with me a period recipe for jerky/dried meat? i got
>some bear to jerk for a trip.=20
>thanks
>YMHS,
>=A0 Terry L Landis
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at
<http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html>http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: jerky
Date: 24 Mar 1999 19:25:36 -0800




>could some one share with me a period recipe for jerky/dried meat? i got
>some bear to jerk for a trip.
>thanks
>YMHS,
>  Terry L Landis
>
They say back home in(Michigan) to treat bear like pork because to the
chance of trichinosis.  Has anyone heard the same thing????  Now if you want
a good way is a cup of salt,  a cup of brown sugar and couple of qts.. of
water I add a box of crab or shrimp boil it has a lot of spices.  Soak over
night and dry with a towel.    I use a smoker.  Works good for me.   Later
Jon T




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: jerky
Date: 24 Mar 1999 19:43:47 -0800 (PST)

> >could some one share with me a period recipe for jerky/dried meat? i got
> >some bear to jerk for a trip.

On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, JON P TOWNS wrote:
> They say back home in(Michigan) to treat bear like pork because to the
> chance of trichinosis.

Exactly correct.  Bears, being wild critters unhampered by fences and
feedlots, and tending to eat any and everything, tend to be heavy
carriers of trichinosis.  A gentleman up here in the Pacific Northwest
made jerky out of cougar a while back, and managed to infect a lot of
folks with this.  They figgered the cougar found and ate a dead bear.

If'n it was me, I'd find some other meat (say, a herbivore) for your
jerky.

And John Kramer's recipe is about as period as you can get... except he
left out the flies and snapping dogs.

Regards

Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho
NMLRA member 058863
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: jerky
Date: 24 Mar 1999 21:47:02 -0600

Terry
I would have thought that bear meat would be too fatty for jerky with =
any expectation that it wouldn't get rancid after a while, but I have no =
experience jerking bear.  I have boiled bear and roasted bear over =
coals, and both times lots of grease cooked out of meat that had no =
discernible fat showing. =20
I know a fellow up in the northwest who will cook a pork roast then =
shred it and dry it.  It rehydreates readily and cooks up really good.  =
Do you suppose that would work with bear meat?
Please post a report of the results.  I think lots of folks would be =
interested in how it turns out.  Good luck.
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----


>could some one share with me a period recipe for jerky/dried meat? i =
got
>some bear to jerk for a trip.=20
>thanks
>YMHS,
>  Terry L Landis
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at =
http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:history channel--the mountain man (long)
Date: 24 Mar 1999 22:37:30 EST

Don't be shy, Larry.

tell us how you really feel.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: terry l landis <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: towels
Date: 24 Mar 1999 20:07:07 -0800

o.k. one more quick one. what if any materal was ysed for towels back in
them days? sack cloth come's to mind. anyone know of any other ?
thanks
YMHS,
  Terry L Landis

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: terry l landis <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: re:jerky
Date: 24 Mar 1999 20:05:03 -0800

its true about bear being like pork , but i have made jerk out of this
one several times and no one's dead yet. this bear was shot in aug. last
year (my first beasty with a muzzle loader), so no fat on it lanney. i
was just looking for a period recipe. you can only eat so much teriyaki
jerk ya know.
john thanks for the tip i'll try it .
thanks all,
YMHS,
  Terry L Landis

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: re:jerky
Date: 24 Mar 1999 20:30:49 -0800

Terry,

I smoked some deer once, cut the meat in to strips, made a rack and had some
good coals going under it.  I walked around the woods where we were camped
and started tasting leaves on the trees till I found one that was kinda
sweet.  I put both branches and some of the green leaves on the coals and
smoked the meat for the entire day.  I wish I knew what tree that was 'cause
the meat was sooooooo good we couldn't stop eating it!  I imagine that
wasn't too far from the way it might have been done in our period of
interest.

Hope that helps some, Medicine Bear





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: History Channel's The Mountain Men
Date: 24 Mar 1999 23:53:25 -0500 (EST)

Covering approximately 40 years of fur trade history (c.1805-1845)
should have been done on PBS.  Maybe 20 hours worth of programming - 2
hours Mon-Fri for two weeks.  Or go to a continuing series format on
History Channel (similar to their Civil War series).  Sounds like a 1000
yard shot either way.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: jerky
Date: 24 Mar 1999 21:02:25 -0800



terry l landis wrote:

> could some one share with me a period recipe for jerky/dried meat? i got
> some bear to jerk for a trip.
> thanks
> YMHS,
>   Terry L Landis

Terry,

If you must make jerky out of your bear meat, my recommendation is to just
cut it in thin strips and shake a bit of salt and pepper on it like you were
seasoning it and let it dry. It probably wouldn't hurt to smoke cure it as
though it were bacon or ham. The last bear I got had some of the meat
treated that way and it made good ham, etc. But I am a firm believer that to
be safe, bear meat needs to be cooked just like pork. Lanneys idea of
cooking it, shredding it and then drying it is a good one.

If you do decide to make jerky out of it be advised that you can haul it in
my bateau this weekend but I ain't gona eat any of it unless you cooked it
first!

On another note, we don't need no stinking towels! They's for city folk.
That's what your breech clout is for amongst other uses. <G> See ya on the
lake mate. I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "The Brooks" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Goex/ Elephant
Date: 26 Mar 1999 06:07:55 +1200


Rumours are circulating here that advice has been received that Goex have
sold out to Elephant lock stock and barrel. Apparently all equipment is
heading south to Brazil wherever Elephant comes from. From now on all will
be one or so the story goes. Anybody on the list able to confirm or deny???
Kia Ora
Big Bear
In cool hazy Marlborough New Zealand.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Butch <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: jerky
Date: 24 Mar 1999 23:35:06 -0800


> They say back home in(Michigan) to treat bear like pork because to the
> chance of trichinosis.  Has anyone heard the same thing????
>
>
    Bears who raid human garbage are prone to picking up trichinosis, on
account of infected beef and pork in the garbage.  Bears taken far away
from human settlements are less likely to have it.  Just in case, it can't
hurt to cook it thoroughly, just in case.


    Butch



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: re:jerky
Date: 25 Mar 1999 06:48:05 -0600

You are right about Teriyaki.  Some of the best jerky I ever made was =
simply peppered meat dried over a tiny little smoky fire.......lot of =
smoke, no fire.  Used green mesquite wood.  Probably not much of that =
where you are, though.  Just about any hardwood would do nicely.
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----


>its true about bear being like pork , but i have made jerk out of this
>one several times and no one's dead yet. this bear was shot in aug. =
last
>year (my first beasty with a muzzle loader), so no fat on it lanney. i
>was just looking for a period recipe. you can only eat so much teriyaki
>jerk ya know.
>john thanks for the tip i'll try it .
>thanks all,
>YMHS,
>  Terry L Landis
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at =
http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: MtMan-List: Trade goods
Date: 25 Mar 1999 07:44:49 -0700

George Morgan, partners of a Philadelphia firm who were interested in
starting colonies in 1768 in Illinois, listed some goods to be ordered,
some I am not sure of or have a general idea of what it is but no knowledge
of where the goods were made.
What is Loaf sugar, Muscovado, Hyson tea, Bohea tea, Pewter basons & c,
Spike Gimblets, tap bores, Worsted or Cruels, Blotting Cloaths, Chintz,
Black Cravats, Cutteaus, wrist bands? These items and many others were
ordered and floated down the Ohio from Fort Pitt to Kaskaskia
Thanks
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: MtMan-List: Horses and Long rifles
Date: 25 Mar 1999 07:48:40 -0700

Given the long rifles carried by some Long Hunters, How were they carried
horseback? Did Long hunters use horses extensively or were boats or walking
perferred?
Thanks
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horses and Long rifles
Date: 25 Mar 1999 09:15:49 -0800



Joe Brandl wrote:

> Given the long rifles carried by some Long Hunters, How were they carried
> horseback? Did Long hunters use horses extensively or were boats or walking
> perferred?
> Thanks
> Joe

Joe,

IMHO, The "long Hunter" carried their long rifles the same way the "Mt. Men"
carried their long rifles, across the body in front of them or held alongside
on a narrow trail, or over the back, upside down on a sling. I can't think of
any other ways to do it except a saddle scabbard and I don't know how
widespread their use was if they were used at all.

It seems that long hunters traveled by horse, boat and on foot. Boat
transportation might be preferred and a lot of foot travel was done but they
did have and did use horses too. It seems to have depended on local conditions
and resources. Not a definitive answer, I admit but it's short and simple and
close to the truth. I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sickler, Louis L" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: The Old Gunsmith
Date: 25 Mar 1999 13:36:12 -0700

Pendelton,

I'm sure Jerry will come back with some more specific info, but just to get
you started this series ran in 8 installments from the Sept/Oct 1991 issue
to the Nov/Dec-1992 issue. It was (and is) one of my favorite series
published in this and other mags on the sport.

I'm at work and do not have any specifics about the rifling machine
described, but if you have any of those mags you can look it up.

Hope this helps some,

Red Coyote

> ----------
> From:     zaslow
> Reply To:     [e-mail]
> Sent:     Monday, March 22, 1999 23:09
> To:     [e-mail]
> Subject:     Re: MtMan-List: RIFLING MACHINE
>
> Pendelton,
>
> Back a few years ago there was an excellent series in the Muzzleloader
> Magazine about an early gunmaker.  When I get a chance I'll try and locate
> it for you, but it went into great detail about how the guns were made by
> hand.  I think it described the barrel making machine.
>
> Give me about a week and I'll see what I can find.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: MtMan-List: Question About Barrel Length
Date: 25 Mar 1999 15:43:37 -0700 (MST)



Well I need some serious answers as I am trying to do battle with my neighbor wh
o is a retired engineer, and just starting into Black Powder shooting, as too bad
 for me, I got him interested in the hobby, he is driving me nuts with questions,
 and a lot of whys that I can't answer.  He analyzes everything.

Beside now my neighbor has taken control of most of my good catalog collection th
at he forgot I lent him.  Sure I will get them back someday?

So the latest question he keep hitting me with is Barrel Length verses Accuracy,
and I keep saying that if a barrel is over 35 inches long, and up to 44 inches lo
ng the only reason for the different length has to do with Original Styles of Rif
le, and Smoothbores.  That is why the difference in barrel lengths and the accura
cy thing is not effected by barrel lengths.

I think when he finally decide to take the plunge, and buy his first good flintlo
ck he is planning on buying a Caywood with the interchangeable barrel system so h
e can do both the rifled, and smoothbore shooting.

I keep saying to myself to be nice to him as maybe when the neighbors dies he wil
l will me his collection of Black Powder stuff, as he has 20 years on me.

Am I right when I saying, if a barrel is over 35 inches long, and up to 44 inches
 long the only reason for the different length has to do with Original Styles of
Rifle, and Smoothbores???

B

--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "landis" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: re: jerky
Date: 25 Mar 1999 15:42:00 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0034_01BE76D6.06495260
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    I've had his jerky ,even made some myself with deer.smokin it works =
real well.just need some new seasonins to make it taste different. I =
recommend a smoked cheese to go with it if that is acceptable ?  fruit =
bears are mighty tasty!
                                                                         =
                   adam

------=_NextPart_000_0034_01BE76D6.06495260
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>    <FONT =
color=3D#000000>I've had=20
his jerky ,even made some myself with deer.smokin it works real =
well.just need=20
some new seasonins to make it taste different. I recommend a smoked =
cheese to go=20
with it if that is acceptable ?  fruit bears are mighty=20
tasty!</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>         &nb=
sp;           &nbs=
p;            =
;            =
            &=
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adam</FONT></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0034_01BE76D6.06495260--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john c. funk,jr" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: jerky
Date: 25 Mar 1999 07:00:07 -0800

Jon,

I too have heard that bears are carriers of the dreaded trichinosis.

John Funk

-----Original Message-----


>
>
>
>>could some one share with me a period recipe for jerky/dried meat? i got
>>some bear to jerk for a trip.
>>thanks
>>YMHS,
>>  Terry L Landis
>>
>They say back home in(Michigan) to treat bear like pork because to the
>chance of trichinosis.  Has anyone heard the same thing????  Now if you
want
>a good way is a cup of salt,  a cup of brown sugar and couple of qts.. of
>water I add a box of crab or shrimp boil it has a lot of spices.  Soak over
>night and dry with a towel.    I use a smoker.  Works good for me.   Later
>Jon T
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: jerky
Date: 25 Mar 1999 19:57:48 -0500

YES!!!  Bear definately can give you Trichinosis just like pork...

Sean

-----Original Message-----


>
>
>
>>could some one share with me a period recipe for jerky/dried meat? i got
>>some bear to jerk for a trip.
>>thanks
>>YMHS,
>>  Terry L Landis
>>
>They say back home in(Michigan) to treat bear like pork because to the
>chance of trichinosis.  Has anyone heard the same thing????  Now if you
want
>a good way is a cup of salt,  a cup of brown sugar and couple of qts.. of
>water I add a box of crab or shrimp boil it has a lot of spices.  Soak over
>night and dry with a towel.    I use a smoker.  Works good for me.   Later
>Jon T
>
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade goods
Date: 25 Mar 1999 20:00:14 EST

working in the same area as you are.would like to know were you got your list
from Morgans store if you can help me out i would be greatful.I hit the
archives in st.louis about once a month,if you need something looked up.
                                            rick petzoldt

                                     [e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question About Barrel Length
Date: 25 Mar 1999 19:13:55 -0600

Bruce,
  The only advantage to the longer barrel length is you have a longer site
plane. [the distance between the rear and front sight]  Technically there
should be little difference in accuracy between long and short barrels.
Pendleton

----------
> From: BRUCE S. DE LIS <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: MtMan-List: Question About Barrel Length
> Date: Thursday, March 25, 1999 4:43 PM
>
>
>
> Well I need some serious answers as I am trying to do battle with my
neighbor wh
> o is a retired engineer, and just starting into Black Powder shooting, as
too bad
>  for me, I got him interested in the hobby, he is driving me nuts with
questions,
>  and a lot of whys that I can't answer.  He analyzes everything.
>
> Beside now my neighbor has taken control of most of my good catalog
collection th
> at he forgot I lent him.  Sure I will get them back someday?
>
> So the latest question he keep hitting me with is Barrel Length verses
Accuracy,
> and I keep saying that if a barrel is over 35 inches long, and up to 44
inches lo
> ng the only reason for the different length has to do with Original
Styles of Rif
> le, and Smoothbores.  That is why the difference in barrel lengths and
the accura
> cy thing is not effected by barrel lengths.
>
> I think when he finally decide to take the plunge, and buy his first good
flintlo
> ck he is planning on buying a Caywood with the interchangeable barrel
system so h
> e can do both the rifled, and smoothbore shooting.
>
> I keep saying to myself to be nice to him as maybe when the neighbors
dies he wil
> l will me his collection of Black Powder stuff, as he has 20 years on me.
>
> Am I right when I saying, if a barrel is over 35 inches long, and up to
44 inches
>  long the only reason for the different length has to do with Original
Styles of
> Rifle, and Smoothbores???
>
> B
>
> --
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: towels
Date: 25 Mar 1999 19:30:28 -0600

Since no one responded, I will give my opinion:

Towels, what towels?  We don't need no stinkin towels. ;-)

I have never seen any documentation on towels used by the mountaineer.

Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner

-----Original Message-----


>o.k. one more quick one. what if any materal was ysed for towels back in
>them days? sack cloth come's to mind. anyone know of any other ?
>thanks
>YMHS,
>  Terry L Landis
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question About Barrel Length
Date: 25 Mar 1999 18:40:48 -0700 (MST)



Larry you have given me some ammunition to shoot at "Mr. Slide Rule" with, like
I said the guy is a retired engineer, and elderly.  One very bad combination to d
eal with when trying to make sense.  Will try that "the distance between the rear
 and front sight" thing and hope he is satisfied with your expert answer.

B


"The only advantage to the longer barrel length is you have a longer site
plane. [the distance between the rear and front sight]  Technically there
should be little difference in accuracy between long and short barrels.
Pendleton"

--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Douglas  Hepner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade goods
Date: 25 Mar 1999 20:00:39 -0600

Joe,
   Jas. Townsend and Son lists a black cotton cravat in their online
catalog. They even have a picture of a man wearing one. It is a kind of
loose black tie made of fine cotton. I hope this microscopic info helps.

"Dull Hawk"

----------
> From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: MtMan-List: Trade goods
> Date: Thursday, March 25, 1999 8:44 AM
>
> George Morgan, partners of a Philadelphia firm who were interested in
> starting colonies in 1768 in Illinois, listed some goods to be ordered,
> some I am not sure of or have a general idea of what it is but no
knowledge
> of where the goods were made.
> What is Loaf sugar, Muscovado, Hyson tea, Bohea tea, Pewter basons & c,
> Spike Gimblets, tap bores, Worsted or Cruels, Blotting Cloaths, Chintz,
> Black Cravats, Cutteaus, wrist bands? These items and many others were
> ordered and floated down the Ohio from Fort Pitt to Kaskaskia
> Thanks
> Joe
>
> Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
> Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
> Write for custom tanning prices
> We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
> hair on robes
> Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings,
baskets
> check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka
>
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:wabbit fur
Date: 25 Mar 1999 21:30:49 -0500

It takes that and more.  Be prepared to wear a mask because of all the fur that
flies.  It gets in every orifice you might have and you look like a hairy
something or other.  I had a great deal of trouble with the nose, thinking there
were all these little hairs tickling my face.  But the finished product was
worth it.  WILL NEVER make another one again.  The 4 I did was enough.  Still
have one left and it is very warm on a cold night.  Still tickles.  The LITTle
strips of long fur are twisted like you make wool thread and woven in the warp.
These blanket are very strong and the last one I did make was 30 years or so ago
and it is just as good as the day it was made.

Linda Holley

Pat Quilter wrote:

> I heard that it takes about 100 rabbit skins to make a woven-strip blanket.
> Given that the strips of fur curl over themselves and therefore cover less
> area than flat-sewn skins, and you would want them fairly tightly woven to
> keep out the wind, this seems reasonable (a patchwork quilt of 1-foot skins
> would require 49 skins to cover 7 x 7 feet).
> YMOS
> Pat Quilter
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Dearing [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Sent: Saturday, March 20, 1999 8:23 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: MtMan-List: Re:wabbit fur
>
> >
> >
> >
> > >The blankets were strips of fine rabbit woven like you would make an  old
> blanket.
> > >There are warp and weft.  Mostly popular with the Southwest Indians.  I
> have made 4
> > >of these and they are very comfortable and warm.  Also very durable
> compared to just
> > >sewing large pieces of rabbit fur together.
>
> These rabbit skin robes were also popular in the Northeast...anywhere it got
> cold, as a
> matter of fact.  I understand that skins taken in the middle of the winter
> won't shed
> nearly
> as bad as those taken in late winter, or so I'm told. I'm also told that
> rabbit robes
> are too
> warm to use above 20 degrees F.
>
> Any truth to this? Also, how many skins are needed to make a three point
> size robe, and
> do you make them for sale?  <sheepish grin>       Thanks          J.D.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade goods
Date: 25 Mar 1999 21:24:21 EST

Joe writes:

> Spike Gimblets, ---an instrument used for starting holes (as in screw
holes).  A kind of  T-handled affair with a corkscrew on the end.

>tap bores, --probably a tapered reamer used to bore the tapered holes in
barrels for fitting bungs.  Both this and the gimlet would be used by coopers.

>Worsted or Cruels,  Chintz,--all types of cloth

>Blotting Cloaths---could be linen blotters used to blot ink after writing, as
was the custom.

> Cutteaus,---pocket knives  aka cuttoes.

> wrist bands?---no idea, maybe they knew the medicinal effects of copper
wrist bands for soothing arthritis. <G>

Dave Kanger



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Roy Parker)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question About Barrel Length
Date: 26 Mar 1999 02:38:41 GMT

I want to play too....

On Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:40:48 -0700 (MST), you wrote:
>Larry you have given me some ammunition to shoot at "Mr. Slide Rule" =
with, like=20
>I said the guy is a retired engineer, and elderly.  One very bad =
combination to d
>eal with when trying to make sense. =20

As an unretired, elderly engineer, I can only say I resemble that
remark.

>Will try that "the distance between the rear > and front sight" thing =
and=20
>hope he is satisfied with your expert answer.
>
One thing not yet mentioned as I type this is the fact that a longer
barrel gives "more residence time" (engineer talk) to complete
combustion of the powder charge.  In my reading over the years I've
come across many references stating that long barrel lengths were used
at least in part due to the perception that there was more "oomph"
behind the ball for a given powder charge.

Ballistics tests bear that out, but somewhere there is a point of
deminishing return.  IIRC, Lyman gives various velocities vs barrel
length for some charges.  I don't have a copy of Lymans BP, but I'd be
surprized if there was more than 1-200fps difference between 36 and 42
inch barrels.  Probably quite a bit of difference between 26-28 inch
barrels vs 36 inch though.

Someone with a copy care to confirm/deny?

Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including =
"BS".
1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: jerky
Date: 25 Mar 1999 21:31:22 EST

In a message dated 3/24/99 7:36:39 PM Mountain Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:
<<  i got some bear to jerk for a trip. >>
I would be extremely careful of jerking bear meat due to trichinosis. If you
have not had the meat tested you are taking a grave risk. Neither the smoking,
drying, minimal heat used, pre-freezing of meat nor the spices used in most
smoking will kill the organism. In some areas a majority of the bears are
infected, especially the older they get. Either cook the meat well or have it
tested. Hope this doesn't ruin your day, but trichinosis will.

Ghosting Wolf
Wildlife Biologist
Montana



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Susan Gilbert" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade goods
Date: 25 Mar 1999 21:25:49 -0600 (CST)

 Loaf sugar = blocks or cones of raw/brown sugar. You used a pair of sugar nips to
pinch off bits of it for use.

Pewter basons & c. = basins and cups, shallow bowls and cups.

Worsted or Cruels = types of yarn.  Worsted is used for knitting.  Cruels/Crewels are
used for embroidery.

Chintz = printed fabric with a highly polished surface finish.


Hope this helps a little,

Old Hands







-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: walnut dye
Date: 25 Mar 1999 22:33:01 EST

hey howdy y'all.......

i went to the Kalamazoo Antique Arms and Trade Fair this weekend past........
made it through the first to "rooms" without spending a penny and then went
broke when i hit room #3 - the biggest and the best of the whole
show........... anyway, one of my purchases was a braintanned deer
hide........ i want to dye it dark brown using a walnut hull dye....... does
anyone have a good recipe or resource for this process?  i have dyed elk hide
in the past using...... and don't shoot me for saying this.......... RIT
dye..... it was passable and quite acceptable but i want to see if i can
really upset the ol' man by doing a walnut hull dye in the kitchen...... hee
hee hee!!!

scary mary



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Goex/ Elephant
Date: 25 Mar 1999 23:47:43 -0500

The Brooks wrote:
>
> Rumours are circulating here that advice has been received that Goex have
> sold out to Elephant lock stock and barrel. Apparently all equipment is
> heading south to Brazil wherever Elephant comes from. From now on all will
> be one or so the story goes. Anybody on the list able to confirm or deny???

Although it IS possible that this has happened, I'm quite certain that it
hasn't.  I will check on it, and IF it's true, I'll report back here ASAP.

Fred

--
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
http://www.cap-n-ball.com/thunder/



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: GOEX sold...
Date: 26 Mar 1999 00:54:07 -0500

OK.....there's NO truth to the rumor that GOEX has sold out to Elephant.  True,
they're not doing well at all, but they have NOT sold out......yet.

Fred

--
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
http://www.cap-n-ball.com/thunder/



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question About Barrel Length
Date: 25 Mar 1999 21:16:05 -0600

I once asked a similar question at the old Green River Rifle Works.=20

What they basically said was that you get about all you're going to get o=
ut of
black powder in a 30" barrel --- beyond that it's only site plane, and
weight.=20


Best choose barrel length to suit the style you choose.

What really makes a long gun pleasant is to have a tapered or swamped bar=
rel.=20
Even helps a short gun carry and point.

I think a long barrel is particularly effective in heavy woods.  The long=
 site
plane helps in picking a shot through the foliage.   The extra length hel=
ps
open your path through the woods and aids silence. =20

I question a short fast handling gun being the best choice in heavy cover.
You
only get glimpses -- unless you're silently stalking or waiting -- snap s=
hots
mostly miss in heavy cover.

The old timers usually did what worked, there was generally a reason for =
what
they did.  Sometimes those reasons aren't apparent today.  There is much =
we
must surmise.

Think about the evolution of the long rifle.  It was developed from short=
er
European rifles like the Jaegar.  They lengthened the gun to accommodate =
the
thick forests that were then the frontier.  As the frontier pushed westwa=
rd
onto the plains a shorter, easier-to-handle-mounted, weapon came to be
preferred.  The Rocky Mountain fur trade was the period of transition.

I once heard a claim that fur traders convinced the natives that the long=
er
the
barrel the harder the gun shot.  This was supposed to work to the traders
favor
as the gun was sold for a stack of beaver hides as tall as the gun.  Henc=
e
42"+
barrels on NW Trade Guns.  Never seen any validity for the claim -- but a=
 nice
little story.

John...



At 03:43 PM 3/25/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>
>Well I need some serious answers as I am trying to do battle with my nei=
ghbor
wh
>o is a retired engineer, and just starting into Black Powder shooting, a=
s too
bad
> for me, I got him interested in the hobby, he is driving me nuts with
questions,
> and a lot of whys that I can't answer.=A0 He analyzes everything.
>
>Beside now my neighbor has taken control of most of my good catalog
collection
th
>at he forgot I lent him.=A0 Sure I will get them back someday?
>
>So the latest question he keep hitting me with is Barrel Length verses
Accuracy,=20
>and I keep saying that if a barrel is over 35 inches long, and up to 44
inches
lo
>ng the only reason for the different length has to do with Original Styl=
es of
Rif
>le, and Smoothbores.=A0 That is why the difference in barrel lengths and=
 the
accura
>cy thing is not effected by barrel lengths.
>
>I think when he finally decide to take the plunge, and buy his first goo=
d
flintlo
>ck he is planning on buying a Caywood with the interchangeable barrel sy=
stem
so h
>e can do both the rifled, and smoothbore shooting.=A0=20
>
>I keep saying to myself to be nice to him as maybe when the neighbors di=
es he
wil
>l will me his collection of Black Powder stuff, as he has 20 years on me.
>
>Am I right when I saying, if a barrel is over 35 inches long, and up to =
44
inches
> long the only reason for the different length has to do with Original S=
tyles
of=20
>Rifle, and Smoothbores???
>
>B
>
>--
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:history channel--the mountain man (long)
Date: 26 Mar 1999 00:39:13 -0600

Larry & Todd,

Thanks for the critique & analysis.  Someone needs to speak up, otherwise too
many get the idea something like a lever gun is just right: when it is exactly
wrong.  It is sometimes hard to do for fear of offending those we know and
like.  I know one who was unaware he was in the film until I told him.  It was
taken from a clip of an  unrelated shoot he was on.  Some of these clips were
from a Kenny Rogers shoot a few years back.

I have already found the film valuable to illustrate the difference to a few
folks I'm introducing to the fur trade.

I wasn't surprised shocked or disappointed; it is about what I've come to
expect.  A bunch of us were invited to appear in full attire for what was
promised to be the most accurate fur trade movie ever made, the world premier
in Jackson Hole of Heston's "The Mountainmen", it was plumb embarrassing.
Even
for free: I never felt so cheated by a movie I'd paid to see.   I felt used.

HBC weren't the only --- way too purty to be a mountainman --- mountainman --
in the picture.  Them proper dressed scallywags was way too clean.

I once heard the basic color of a mountainman's attire was black and darker.
If you live, butcher and cook in the same outfit everyday in the dirt, that
seems about right.  They may not have found it necessary to grease things up,
everything was already pretty much coated with grease all the time, anyway.  I
suspect blankets and tarps as well.  Use original camouflage -- look like the
land you inhabit, by wearing it.  The grease makes it stick.  the wood ash
helps set PH and aids feel.  Rain and sun helps mellow.

Folklore suggests:  coating oneself with grease was thought to keep the
chilblains away, and an asafetida bag (to foil the croup) around the neck was
fairly common.  Asafetida stinks for years, it can't go bad.  Back East folks
was stitched into warm underclothes in the fall and they snipped the seams in
the Spring.  Trappers, with a bait box, who maintained some of their cherished
customs of youth had to be extra fragrant.

Wonder why I been talking about grease for four days and never once mentioned
soap?  It was possible to make soap with the fire, pots, grease, wood ash,
knowledge & water available to them, trade lists show soap was traded;  I
question how much was made and/or used; after all these were the dregs of
polite society.  Soap is useful for many purposes other than keeping clean.

I'm aware that some companies, brigades, and parties operated under military
style rules of the period for personal hygiene; as an aid to discipline.  I've
heard the homily that natives didn't like beards.  Some rules called for
shaving; bathing and washing one's clothes were not as much considered.  Some
individuals would then, as today, be more fastidious, environment would add at
least a little color.  Greasing the hair was a common part of a man's
toilet --
back East.

I'm just as guilty ---  I'm a lot cleaner now than I used to be, living on the
trail.  Best way to get the color just right is to live the life in the outfit
for a year or so.  Ain't too easy to do.  Color really starts coming up at 180
days.

Get out there and get greasy dirty, its Traditional.   Remember how much
fun it
was to roll in the mud as a kid?  O.S.H.A. orange buckskin don't have to stay
that way.  Greasing with natural materials like were used, leaves a better
feel
to the leather, petroleum grease stays nasty.  Hard to describe the
difference.

A bucket of grease, fire ash and a good black-mud hole could improve
everyone's
appearance.  Any volunteers?  Does kind of put off the women; or so I've
heard.  Get dirty enough and no one will know if it's braintan or not.  They
probably won't care.  Purists should add a quart of blood to the mix.

Maybe it's too authentic for most of the late 20th century?

Chapter 35 of Captain Bonneville's Adventures tells the tale of a particularly
foul native who ingratiated himself with the entire camp. (check Dean's web
site which everyone should have bookmarked by now).

Once knew a skinner who wore a raw pork chop for the three months of summer to
get his smell just right.  Amazingly, there was a few pretty women that still
kept company with him.

Good postings, thanks.

John...

May God bless our men and women who stand in harms way.  Heaven help us all.
What has he wrought?

Aren't you glad you didn't buy a Yugo?

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Duncan Macready <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: jerky
Date: 26 Mar 1999 19:57:24 +1200

At 07:00 25/03/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Jon,
>
>I too have heard that bears are carriers of the dreaded trichinosis.
>
Hey how about takeing some meat to your local Agricultural Laboratory [or
Vetinary] and get a test for Trichonella carried out ,it can be done ,
check it out and save yourself some worry.
YMOS
Cutfinger



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: jerky
Date: 26 Mar 1999 06:01:48 -0600

The Encarta encyclopedia at

http://encarta.msn.com/index/conciseindex/35/035CE000.htm

says bears carry trichinosos.

Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner



>At 07:00 25/03/99 -0800, you wrote:
>>Jon,
>>
>>I too have heard that bears are carriers of the dreaded trichinosis.





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "McKee" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: walnut dye
Date: 26 Mar 1999 07:59:47 -0600

just a thought:  Is this hide smoked at all or just in the white?  Either
way, you might try smoking it darker instead of soaking it in a water based
dye like black walnut.  That way you wouldn't have to rework the hide to
soften it.    YMOS     Long John   #l677
-----Original Message-----


>hey howdy y'all.......
>
>i went to the Kalamazoo Antique Arms and Trade Fair this weekend
past........
>made it through the first to "rooms" without spending a penny and then went
>broke when i hit room #3 - the biggest and the best of the whole
>show........... anyway, one of my purchases was a braintanned deer
>hide........ i want to dye it dark brown using a walnut hull dye.......
does
>anyone have a good recipe or resource for this process?  i have dyed elk
hide
>in the past using...... and don't shoot me for saying this.......... RIT
>dye..... it was passable and quite acceptable but i want to see if i can
>really upset the ol' man by doing a walnut hull dye in the kitchen......
hee
>hee hee!!!
>
>scary mary
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Susan Gilbert" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: walnut dye
Date: 26 Mar 1999 08:15:44 -0600 (CST)


You can find out all you need at www.47.pair.com/lindo/dyelist.htm.  It's a natural dye list
that I've found very well done and useful.


Old Hands

Sue Gilbert
[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GOEX sold...
Date: 26 Mar 1999 09:18:06 EST

In a message dated 3/26/99, [e-mail] writes:

<< OK.....there's NO truth to the rumor that GOEX has sold out to Elephant.
True,
 they're not doing well at all, but they have NOT sold out......yet.  >>

Hmmm, perhaps this would be a good time for everyone to run out and buy a
couple cans.

                                                               Longshot



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Carpenters <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: walnut dye
Date: 26 Mar 1999 06:26:42 -0800

The bark of an oak tree and acorn hulls contain tannin.  This soaked in
water will give you a brown dye.

Carp

[e-mail] wrote:
>
>
> show........... anyway, one of my purchases was a braintanned deer
> hide........ i want to dye it dark brown using a walnut hull dye....... does
> anyone have a good recipe or resource for this process?
> scary mary



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James A Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: walnut dye
Date: 26 Mar 1999 08:33:47 -0600

Susan Gilbert wrote:

> You can find out all you need at www.47.pair.com/lindo/dyelist.htm.  It's a natural dye list
> that I've found very well done and useful.
>
> Old Hands
>
> Sue Gilbert
> [e-mail]

The url doesn't seem to work, is it corect?

Thanks,

Jim





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Austin, Tim" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
Date: 26 Mar 1999 08:54:38 -0600

Loaf sugar:  Good explanation has been given for this type sugar.  It can
still be bought at regular grocery stores in Houston, Austin, Dallas, Fort
Worth, TX.  At least these are the cities I have bought it in within the
past several years.  Found some at the grocery stores in Oklahoma City, just
looking as had plenty.  Paul Jones sells some really good stuff that is
wrapped in corn husks or something like that, and it is really good.
Contact him for some.
Hyson tea & Bohea tea: These are just types of tea.  Have bought these in
Williamsburg, VA in original looking paper there at the stores of Colonial
Williamsburg.  Have also bought them at local stores, grocery and specialty.

Black Cravats:  These would be neck ties.

Hope this helps.

Tim Austin



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:history channel--the mountain man (long)
Date: 26 Mar 1999 17:22:08 -0500

> I wasn't surprised shocked or disappointed; it is about what I've come to
> expect.  A bunch of us were invited to appear in full attire for what was
> promised to be the most accurate fur trade movie ever made, the world premier
> in Jackson Hole of Heston's "The Mountainmen", it was plumb embarrassing.
> Even
> for free: I never felt so cheated by a movie I'd paid to see.   I felt used.

I thought the world premier was at La Junta, Colorado????  1980???  or was that
just a special showing for the Mountain men, and ladies, camped out at the Western
Rend.???? And we didn't have to pay.
But then we never got to see it either.  The wind came down and torn the screen in
half.  Now there was something Heston could not stop.  Then they moved the movie
down to the drive-in
theater and bussed us "campers" into town to see the thing.  BTW...the town mayor
is still looking for the cashier.  Seems she ran off with some wily buckskinners.
And then there was something about damaging the speakers by counting coup on the
things????  Were any of you guys on the bus???

Linda Holley




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade goods
Date: 26 Mar 1999 17:06:17 -0700

Joe Brandl ( [e-mail]) wrote:

>>What is Loaf sugar<<  white sugar made into cones ('loaves')
>> Muscovado<<           brown sugar, I think
>> Hyson tea<<              green tea
>> Bohea tea<<              black tea?
>> Pewter basons & c<<
                                     I think this actually means pewter mugs
(not basins), but I'd love to have it clarified; I'm having problems
figuring it out too.
>> tap bores<<         an auger to bore a hole in a barrel to put a tap in,
I'd guess
>> Worsted or Cruels, Blotting Cloaths<<
                                worsted means wool cloth or yarn; the rest
has me puzzled
>>Chintz<<             a kind of glazed cloth
>>Black Cravats<< black neck-cloths, long & thin, made from silk or linen
>>Cutteaus<<          ''coteaux" is French for "knives"
>>wrist bands?<<   Trade silver bracelets?

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GOEX sold...
Date: 26 Mar 1999 19:14:00 -0500

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 3/26/99, [e-mail] writes:
>
> << OK.....there's NO truth to the rumor that GOEX has sold out to Elephant.
> True,
>  they're not doing well at all, but they have NOT sold out......yet.  >>
>
> Hmmm, perhaps this would be a good time for everyone to run out and buy a
> couple cans.

Why?

Fred

--
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
http://www.cap-n-ball.com/thunder/



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:history channel--the mountain man (long)
Date: 26 Mar 1999 17:27:04 -0700

Linda,

That was a special showing at the Western Nationals at La Veta Colorado in
1980, but all we saw were the credits, then the wind blew down the
make-shiff screen and ended the show. The best part of the whole evening was
Heston stepping up, held his hands to the sky and said "How soon they
forget", like he was in the "Ten Commandments".

Have been in a half dozen Hollywood movies and as far as what they did in
the "Mountainmen" was average.  "Black Robe" was a completely different
story, there are some directors that have a better grasp on what's happening
than others that may have been mislead. Overall things seem to keep
improving as more knowledgable folks get involved.

As far as Heston goes he's an actor and prides himself in that, Keith was
the one we hung out with at night and he brought the booze, and told us all
the old war stories. The next day he couldn't remember his lines, and that
went on for the three and half weeks we were there.

As far as the cash lady, think it was "Big Step" and "Crazy Bear" that got
blamed for that.

Buck
__________________
-----Original Message-----



>I thought the world premier was at La Junta, Colorado????  1980???  or was
that
>just a special showing for the Mountain men, and ladies, camped out at the
Western
>Rend.???? And we didn't have to pay.
>But then we never got to see it either.  The wind came down and torn the
screen in
>half.  Now there was something Heston could not stop.  Then they moved the
movie
>down to the drive-in
>theater and bussed us "campers" into town to see the thing.  BTW...the town
mayor
>is still looking for the cashier.  Seems she ran off with some wily
buckskinners.
>And then there was something about damaging the speakers by counting coup
on the
>things????  Were any of you guys on the bus???
>
>Linda Holley
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:history channel--the mountain man (long)
Date: 26 Mar 1999 17:39:08 -0700

John,

Jeff Hengesbaugh showed up in a new set of beautiful brain tanned skins, the
production people wanted to darken them, I stopped Jeff and told him what
they were using. "Plenty Whiskey" Woods almost had Tandy leather dye put on
his skins. They had no idea of the value or work involved in these out fits,
Linda would have killed those boys.

Many were dressed to the "T", and then there were some the production
company picked up that would make you cry, as you know.

Buck
________________
-----Original Message-----
>for free: I never felt so cheated by a movie I'd paid to see.   I felt
used.
>
>HBC weren't the only --- way too purty to be a mountainman ---
mountainman --
>in the picture.  Them proper dressed scallywags was way too clean.
>
>I once heard the basic color of a mountainman's attire was black and
darker.
>If you live, butcher and cook in the same outfit everyday in the dirt, that
>seems about right. .........
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
Date: 26 Mar 1999 17:50:00 -0700

Not trying to sell you guys, but have good information on site about what
your talking about, at :  http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/  last time
I put this out, was accused
of pushing wares, not so, take a look and you decide what was available. If
you like I can put a few trade lists on this page from an article published
in AMM Tomahawk & Long Rifle a few years ago, and a Rocky Mountain College
class given at the western nationals. Oh I found out how big Lanney was on a
trip to the parking area one day, wasn't sure if I had brought enough
supplies after looking him over, right Lanney.

Buck Conner
dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc.

-----Original Message-----


>Loaf sugar:  Good explanation has been given for this type sugar.  It can
>still be bought at regular grocery stores in Houston, Austin, Dallas, Fort
>Worth, TX.  At least these are the cities I have bought it in within the
>past several years.  Found some at the grocery stores in Oklahoma City,
just
>looking as had plenty.  Paul Jones sells some really good stuff that is
>wrapped in corn husks or something like that, and it is really good.
>Contact him for some.
>Hyson tea & Bohea tea: These are just types of tea.  Have bought these in
>Williamsburg, VA in original looking paper there at the stores of Colonial
>Williamsburg.  Have also bought them at local stores, grocery and
specialty.
>
>Black Cravats:  These would be neck ties.
>
>Hope this helps.
>
>Tim Austin
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question About Barrel Length
Date: 26 Mar 1999 19:11:13 -0600

Guys,
  It's my understanding that the powder we have today is far superior to
what was generally available back then.  It is true that the oldtimers
thought the longer barrels were more accurate and would shoot farther.  I=
f
their powder was not as good then that may have been true.  I personally
prefer longer barrel lengths because of the longer sight planes.  As the
eyes go bad you need to move the rear sight farther down the barrel thus =
if
you have a 30 inch barrel you will shorten the sight plane by a very larg=
e
percentage.  Besides I just think the long guns look and feel better.  Bu=
t
to muddy the water a little, it is written that one of the Hawken Bros. w=
as
making a living in St. Louis primararilly shortening the trapper's Kentuc=
ky
Long Rifles by a foot or more in 1822.  Now go get him ! !
Pendleton

----------
> From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question About Barrel Length
> Date: Thursday, March 25, 1999 9:16 PM
>=20
> I once asked a similar question at the old Green River Rifle Works.=20
>=20
> What they basically said was that you get about all you're going to get
out of
> black powder in a 30" barrel --- beyond that it's only site plane, and
> weight.=20
>=20
>=20
> Best choose barrel length to suit the style you choose.
>=20
> What really makes a long gun pleasant is to have a tapered or swamped
barrel.=20
> Even helps a short gun carry and point.
>=20
> I think a long barrel is particularly effective in heavy woods.  The lo=
ng
site
> plane helps in picking a shot through the foliage.   The extra length
helps
> open your path through the woods and aids silence. =20
>=20
> I question a short fast handling gun being the best choice in heavy
cover.
> You
> only get glimpses -- unless you're silently stalking or waiting -- snap
shots
> mostly miss in heavy cover.
>=20
> The old timers usually did what worked, there was generally a reason fo=
r
what
> they did.  Sometimes those reasons aren't apparent today.  There is muc=
h
we
> must surmise.
>=20
> Think about the evolution of the long rifle.  It was developed from
shorter
> European rifles like the Jaegar.  They lengthened the gun to accommodat=
e
the
> thick forests that were then the frontier.  As the frontier pushed
westward
> onto the plains a shorter, easier-to-handle-mounted, weapon came to be
> preferred.  The Rocky Mountain fur trade was the period of transition.
>=20
> I once heard a claim that fur traders convinced the natives that the
longer
> the
> barrel the harder the gun shot.  This was supposed to work to the trade=
rs
> favor
> as the gun was sold for a stack of beaver hides as tall as the gun.=20
Hence
> 42"+
> barrels on NW Trade Guns.  Never seen any validity for the claim -- but=
 a
nice
> little story.
>=20
> John...
>=20
>=20
>=20
> At 03:43 PM 3/25/99 -0700, you wrote:
> >
> >
> >Well I need some serious answers as I am trying to do battle with my
neighbor
> wh
> >o is a retired engineer, and just starting into Black Powder shooting,
as too
> bad
> > for me, I got him interested in the hobby, he is driving me nuts with
> questions,
> > and a lot of whys that I can't answer.=A0 He analyzes everything.
> >
> >Beside now my neighbor has taken control of most of my good catalog
> collection
> th
> >at he forgot I lent him.=A0 Sure I will get them back someday?
> >
> >So the latest question he keep hitting me with is Barrel Length verses
> Accuracy,=20
> >and I keep saying that if a barrel is over 35 inches long, and up to 4=
4
> inches
> lo
> >ng the only reason for the different length has to do with Original
Styles of
> Rif
> >le, and Smoothbores.=A0 That is why the difference in barrel lengths a=
nd
the
> accura
> >cy thing is not effected by barrel lengths.
> >
> >I think when he finally decide to take the plunge, and buy his first
good
> flintlo
> >ck he is planning on buying a Caywood with the interchangeable barrel
system
> so h
> >e can do both the rifled, and smoothbore shooting.=A0=20
> >
> >I keep saying to myself to be nice to him as maybe when the neighbors
dies he
> wil
> >l will me his collection of Black Powder stuff, as he has 20 years on
me.
> >
> >Am I right when I saying, if a barrel is over 35 inches long, and up t=
o
44
> inches
> > long the only reason for the different length has to do with Original
Styles
> of=20
> >Rifle, and Smoothbores???
> >
> >B
> >
> >--
> >=20
> Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
> John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GOEX sold...
Date: 26 Mar 1999 20:21:38 EST

In a message dated 3/27/99 12:13:56 AM !!!First Boot!!!, [e-mail]
writes:

<< Why? >>

Well I figure if they are expeiencing hard times, a rush of buisiness can't do
anything but help.....and I never have a problem with having a little extra
poeder around.  If we want to see them stay around...then we support the
product.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Trade arrows
Date: 26 Mar 1999 17:59:29 -0800 (PST)

Good Day Folks

Had a gentleman write me with some questions I don't have answers to.
If'n one of ya'll are smarter than I (no wisecracks Cap'n!), then you
could either answer on the list and I'll forward the replies (preferred),
or answer him directly.

On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Roger D. Hall wrote:
> sir could you plese help me. i just came across two metal arrow points
> tht i got at an antique store.  one has Fort Bridger  dakota territory
> 1820 stamped on it  Fort bridger did not exist then it looks old has
> defects in the engraving and small hole in the base it is a wide v  with
> only one smass hole in the shaft.
> the oter one has  N E 1844 on it it is a thicer point heaver than the
> first. could you give me a little help
Roger D. Hall <[e-mail]>

Regards

Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho
NMLRA member 058863
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: walnut dye
Date: 26 Mar 1999 19:43:28 -0600

Scary Mary,
  I don't know about using walnut dye on braintan.  Walnut hull dye is
extremely acid.  Someone with more experience than I needs to fill you in,
but I'm afraid you might end up with some very expensive deer skin rawhide
if you're not careful.
Pendleton

----------
> From: [e-mail]
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: MtMan-List: walnut dye
> Date: Thursday, March 25, 1999 9:33 PM
>
> hey howdy y'all.......
>
> i went to the Kalamazoo Antique Arms and Trade Fair this weekend
past........
> made it through the first to "rooms" without spending a penny and then
went
> broke when i hit room #3 - the biggest and the best of the whole
> show........... anyway, one of my purchases was a braintanned deer
> hide........ i want to dye it dark brown using a walnut hull dye.......
does
> anyone have a good recipe or resource for this process?  i have dyed elk
hide
> in the past using...... and don't shoot me for saying this.......... RIT
> dye..... it was passable and quite acceptable but i want to see if i can
> really upset the ol' man by doing a walnut hull dye in the kitchen......
hee
> hee hee!!!
>
> scary mary



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GOEX sold...
Date: 26 Mar 1999 21:09:24 -0500

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 3/27/99 12:13:56 AM !!!First Boot!!!, [e-mail]
> writes:
>
> << Why? >>
>
> Well I figure if they are expeiencing hard times, a rush of buisiness can't do
> anything but help.....and I never have a problem with having a little extra
> poeder around.  If we want to see them stay around...then we support the
> product.

I'll avoid a l-o-n-g discussion.

Fred



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: walnut dye
Date: 26 Mar 1999 21:23:32 EST

Hay! It's a trap dye used then and still in use today.

                        Traprjoe



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-Indigo
Date: 26 Mar 1999 21:26:39 EST

Last fall many of you were asking about indigo.  It was dormant then but is
coming up again right now.  I have seen several plants.  Start looking.  Some
roots were sent out last year.  How are they doing?

                                [e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
Date: 26 Mar 1999 21:15:50 -0600

I'm not commenting  about my dainty size except to say that if =
Christopher Colombus had used one of my shirts for a sail he would have =
gotten to San Salvador in 1491.
Lanney
-----Original Message-----


>Not trying to sell you guys, but have good information on site about =
what
>your talking about, at :  http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/  last =
time
>I put this out, was accused
>of pushing wares, not so, take a look and you decide what was =
available. If
>you like I can put a few trade lists on this page from an article =
published
>in AMM Tomahawk & Long Rifle a few years ago, and a Rocky Mountain =
College
>class given at the western nationals. Oh I found out how big Lanney was =
on a
>trip to the parking area one day, wasn't sure if I had brought enough
>supplies after looking him over, right Lanney.
>
>Buck Conner
>dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Austin, Tim <[e-mail]>
>To: '[e-mail]' <[e-mail]>
>Date: Friday, March 26, 1999 7:55 AM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
>
>
>>Loaf sugar:  Good explanation has been given for this type sugar.  It =
can
>>still be bought at regular grocery stores in Houston, Austin, Dallas, =
Fort
>>Worth, TX.  At least these are the cities I have bought it in within =
the
>>past several years.  Found some at the grocery stores in Oklahoma =
City,
>just
>>looking as had plenty.  Paul Jones sells some really good stuff that =
is
>>wrapped in corn husks or something like that, and it is really good.
>>Contact him for some.
>>Hyson tea & Bohea tea: These are just types of tea.  Have bought these =
in
>>Williamsburg, VA in original looking paper there at the stores of =
Colonial
>>Williamsburg.  Have also bought them at local stores, grocery and
>specialty.
>>
>>Black Cravats:  These would be neck ties.
>>
>>Hope this helps.
>>
>>Tim Austin
>>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lewis Kevin Raper" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GOEX sold...
Date: 27 Mar 1999 00:11:01 -0500

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 26, 1999 8:21 PM


> In a message dated 3/27/99 12:13:56 AM !!!First Boot!!!,
[e-mail]
> writes:
>
> << Why? >>
>
> Well I figure if they are expeiencing hard times, a rush of buisiness
can't do
> anything but help.....and I never have a problem with having a little
extra
> poeder around.  If we want to see them stay around...then we support the
> product.

I like GOEX. It fires better and is easier to clean than Pyrodex. Having a
little extra powder around ain't a bad ideer, considering Y2k is coming up.
You just might need that powder to defend your families from all the mobbs
of flatlanders.
Take care, Possumhunter
Possumhunting, not just a hobby, but a way of life!




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Roy Parker)
Subject: MtMan-List: Simon Girty
Date: 27 Mar 1999 05:20:21 GMT

I've exchanged a couple of notes from a fellow on alt.history.living
who is looking for info on Simon Girty.  He's a history graduate, and
seems interested in a slightly earlier era than usually covered here.

I passed on info of this list and Dean's site to him, but he is
looking for more info than seems available on the net.

Anybody care to recommend a couple resources to him?  His name is
James D Holder <[e-mail]>.  Name seems awfully familiar
to me, but can't place it other than Fred Holder's relation?

Contact him directly if you want, or post here and I'll be proud to
pass it on to him.  Meanwhile, someone take a pull o this here shrub I
whupped up from the recipes a week or so back....




Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including =
"BS".
1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: The Sweeneys <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: testing- don't read
Date: 27 Mar 1999 00:53:47 +0000

test




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: walnut dye
Date: 27 Mar 1999 06:48:58 -0600

   >The bark of an oak tree and acorn hulls contain tannin.  This
   >soaked in water will give you a brown dye.
Its also a very good vegetable tanning soloution!

Jeff Powers,A mind like a steel trap:Rusty and illegal in 37 states!

"They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin 1698

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: walnut dye
Date: 27 Mar 1999 07:22:12 -0600

The Huron and Iroquois have used walnut hulls to dye brain tan for
centuries. The acid in question is Tannic Acid,which has been used for more
than 300 years to tan leather. Vegetable tanned leather IS PERIOD CORRECT at
least back through the 18th century for anyone who just came to the
mountains or someone who gets to TAOS or some of the other settlement.
  The tooled leather saddles,etc. that some who traded in Taos for are made
from leather tanned with tannic acid!
   >Scary Mary,
   >I don't know about using walnut dye on braintan.  Walnut hull dye is
   >extremely acid.  Someone with more experience than I needs to fill
   >you in, but I'm afraid you might end up with some very expensive
   >deer skin rawhide if you're not careful.
   >Pendleton
Boil your walnut hulls in water until you get enough coffee colored water
(my kind of coffee,melts pewter spoons!)to submerge the skin. If you want
you can strain the hull chunks out or leave them in. Let the water cool to
air temp. them put your hide in and make sure all of it gets wet. keep
working it every few minutes to get the dye into all the folds,etc. until
its as dark as you want. remove it from the dye rinse,then work it like any
other brain-tan until dry.
  One other thing! Use a big stick or canoe paddle to stir while it is
dying,or you could end up with dark brown skin.

Jeff Powers,A mind like a steel trap:Rusty and illegal in 37 states!

SOUFLE,SOUFLE, La Vielle

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
Date: 27 Mar 1999 06:34:38 -0700

No, he would have gotten blown over with the cross winds from your clout.
-----Original Message-----


I'm not commenting  about my dainty size except to say that if Christopher
Colombus had used one of my shirts for a sail he would have gotten to San
Salvador in 1491.
Lanney
-----Original Message-----

>Oh I found out how big Lanney was on a
>trip to the parking area one day, wasn't sure if I had brought enough
>supplies after looking him over, right Lanney.








-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: walnut dye
Date: 27 Mar 1999 07:36:25 -0600

Ok guys, I wasn't suggesting that braintan could not be dyed with walnut
hulls.  I just wanted someone else to fill her in on what she was getting
into.  If the hides are not smoked, she would have to break the skins to
get them soft again and if she didn't know this she would end up with the
deerskin rawhide I was refering to.  Frankly I don't know what the effect
of dyeing braintan that has already been smoked. [using walnut hulls] Could
someone let me know how to do that?
Pendleton

----------
> From: [e-mail]
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: walnut dye
> Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 7:22 AM
>
> The Huron and Iroquois have used walnut hulls to dye brain tan for
> centuries. The acid in question is Tannic Acid,which has been used for
more
> than 300 years to tan leather. Vegetable tanned leather IS PERIOD CORRECT
at
> least back through the 18th century for anyone who just came to the
> mountains or someone who gets to TAOS or some of the other settlement.
>   The tooled leather saddles,etc. that some who traded in Taos for are
made
> from leather tanned with tannic acid!
>    >Scary Mary,
>    >I don't know about using walnut dye on braintan.  Walnut hull dye is
>    >extremely acid.  Someone with more experience than I needs to fill
>    >you in, but I'm afraid you might end up with some very expensive
>    >deer skin rawhide if you're not careful.
>    >Pendleton
> Boil your walnut hulls in water until you get enough coffee colored water
> (my kind of coffee,melts pewter spoons!)to submerge the skin. If you want
> you can strain the hull chunks out or leave them in. Let the water cool
to
> air temp. them put your hide in and make sure all of it gets wet. keep
> working it every few minutes to get the dye into all the folds,etc. until
> its as dark as you want. remove it from the dye rinse,then work it like
any
> other brain-tan until dry.
>   One other thing! Use a big stick or canoe paddle to stir while it is
> dying,or you could end up with dark brown skin.
>
> Jeff Powers,A mind like a steel trap:Rusty and illegal in 37 states!
>
> SOUFLE,SOUFLE, La Vielle
>
> Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
Date: 27 Mar 1999 07:38:13 -0600

Lanney Roux in a clout.  Damn I'm scared.
Pendleton

----------
> From: Barry Conner <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
> Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 7:34 AM
>
> No, he would have gotten blown over with the cross winds from your clout.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Friday, March 26, 1999 8:15 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
>
>
> I'm not commenting  about my dainty size except to say that if
Christopher
> Colombus had used one of my shirts for a sail he would have gotten to San
> Salvador in 1491.
> Lanney
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Barry Conner <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Friday, March 26, 1999 6:53 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
>
> >Oh I found out how big Lanney was on a
> >trip to the parking area one day, wasn't sure if I had brought enough
> >supplies after looking him over, right Lanney.
>
>
>
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
Date: 27 Mar 1999 07:43:59 -0600

Buck, there are people trying to eat breakfast now.  The thought of me =
in a clout will doubtless cause many of them to set down their Cheerios =
and  go lay down for a spell......maybe with a damp cloth on their =
forehead.  Have some compassion, man.
Lanney
-----Original Message-----


>No, he would have gotten blown over with the cross winds from your =
clout.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Friday, March 26, 1999 8:15 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
>
>
>I'm not commenting  about my dainty size except to say that if =
Christopher
>Colombus had used one of my shirts for a sail he would have gotten to =
San
>Salvador in 1491.
>Lanney
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Barry Conner <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Friday, March 26, 1999 6:53 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
>
>>Oh I found out how big Lanney was on a
>>trip to the parking area one day, wasn't sure if I had brought enough
>>supplies after looking him over, right Lanney.
>
>
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: walnut dye
Date: 27 Mar 1999 08:44:55 EST

In a message dated 3/26/99 9:03:21 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< just a thought:  Is this hide smoked at all or just in the white?  Either
 way, you might try smoking it darker instead of soaking it in a water based
 dye like black walnut.  That way you wouldn't have to rework the hide to
 soften it.    YMOS     Long John   #l677 >>

LJ........ it is smoked...... really smoked - hubster won't even let me bring
it in the house!!!!  like i said i have died leather before with commercial
dye, so having to rework the hide doesn't bother.... not half as much has
having to build a smoking "cabinet" would.......  but thanks for the
suggestion........

mary



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: walnut dye
Date: 27 Mar 1999 08:46:26 EST

In a message dated 3/26/99 9:34:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, [e-mail]
writes:

<<
 The url doesn't seem to work, is it corect?

 Thanks,

 Jim
  >>

ditto Sue, i tried it and the site kept coming up "Unknown Host"
mary



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: walnut dye
Date: 27 Mar 1999 09:05:11 EST

In a message dated 3/26/99 9:05:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Scary Mary,
   I don't know about using walnut dye on braintan.  Walnut hull dye is
 extremely acid.  Someone with more experience than I needs to fill you in,
 but I'm afraid you might end up with some very expensive deer skin rawhide
 if you're not careful.
 Pendleton
  >>

P - thanks for the warning, i will take that into consideration..... i know
that the dye has been used on cloth alot here in the east - by longhunters,
natives, etc.   and i am pretty sure that it was used to make native american
pouches, knife neck sheaths, etc.  but i will definitely check it out!
mary



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: walnut dye
Date: 27 Mar 1999 09:10:52 EST

In a message dated 3/27/99 8:23:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, [e-mail]
writes:

<< Boil your walnut hulls  >>

Jeff........ thanks so much......... so now for a real pork-eater
question...... when you say hulls, do you mean the green, fleshy outer casing
of the whole nut or do you mean the hard black-brown shell that covers the
actual nut meat?  i have been wondering about this for a while - is the hull
the shell and vice-versa - or what???
thanks again!
mary



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: walnut dye
Date: 27 Mar 1999 09:12:14 EST

In a message dated 3/27/99 8:23:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, [e-mail]
writes:

<< until
 its as dark as you want. remove it from the dye rinse,then work it like any
 other brain-tan until dry.
 >>

jeff..... another question...... do i have to use some kind of mordant to set
the dye after i get it to the right color.... if not, will it leach, bleach or
otherwise come back out of the leather.... like all over my trade shirt,
chemise, etc.????

mary



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: walnut dye
Date: 27 Mar 1999 08:34:43 -0600

You obviously spent serious money on those hides.  I didn't know whether
you knew what you were getting into concerning rebreaking the hides.  Not
suggesting anything, but their ain't too many women folk these days who
care anything about breaking hides.
Pendleton

----------
> From: [e-mail]
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: walnut dye
> Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 8:05 AM
>
> In a message dated 3/26/99 9:05:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> [e-mail] writes:
>
> << Scary Mary,
>    I don't know about using walnut dye on braintan.  Walnut hull dye is
>  extremely acid.  Someone with more experience than I needs to fill you
in,
>  but I'm afraid you might end up with some very expensive deer skin
rawhide
>  if you're not careful.
>  Pendleton
>   >>
>
> P - thanks for the warning, i will take that into consideration..... i
know
> that the dye has been used on cloth alot here in the east - by
longhunters,
> natives, etc.   and i am pretty sure that it was used to make native
american
> pouches, knife neck sheaths, etc.  but i will definitely check it out!
> mary



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
Date: 27 Mar 1999 08:38:44 -0600

I'm talking HIINNEY BO [ASS] for days.  Somehow this plate of ham and eggs
just don't shine no more.
Pendleton

----------
> From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
> Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 7:43 AM
>
> Buck, there are people trying to eat breakfast now.  The thought of me in
a clout will doubtless cause many of them to set down their Cheerios and
go lay down for a spell......maybe with a damp cloth on their forehead.
Have some compassion, man.
> Lanney
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Barry Conner <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 7:38 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
>
>
> >No, he would have gotten blown over with the cross winds from your
clout.
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
> >To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> >Date: Friday, March 26, 1999 8:15 PM
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
> >
> >
> >I'm not commenting  about my dainty size except to say that if
Christopher
> >Colombus had used one of my shirts for a sail he would have gotten to
San
> >Salvador in 1491.
> >Lanney
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Barry Conner <[e-mail]>
> >To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> >Date: Friday, March 26, 1999 6:53 PM
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
> >
> >>Oh I found out how big Lanney was on a
> >>trip to the parking area one day, wasn't sure if I had brought enough
> >>supplies after looking him over, right Lanney.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
Date: 27 Mar 1999 09:01:11 -0600

I think that too many people on this list have an unhealthy fascination =
with my behind.  You should seek counseling from highly qualified =
professionals to explore these latent tendencies before it's too late.  =
If you don't,   you may develop the urge to move to San Francisco or =
even the Oak Lawn section of Dallas......the fern bar capital of north =
Texas.
Lanney Ratcliff =20
-----Original Message-----


>I'm talking HIINNEY BO [ASS] for days.  Somehow this plate of ham and =
eggs
>just don't shine no more.
>Pendleton
>
>----------
>> From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail]
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
>> Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 7:43 AM
>>=20
>> Buck, there are people trying to eat breakfast now.  The thought of =
me in
>a clout will doubtless cause many of them to set down their Cheerios =
and=20
>go lay down for a spell......maybe with a damp cloth on their forehead. =

>Have some compassion, man.
>> Lanney
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Barry Conner <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 7:38 AM
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
>>=20
>>=20
>> >No, he would have gotten blown over with the cross winds from your
>clout.
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
>> >To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> >Date: Friday, March 26, 1999 8:15 PM
>> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
>> >
>> >
>> >I'm not commenting  about my dainty size except to say that if
>Christopher
>> >Colombus had used one of my shirts for a sail he would have gotten =
to
>San
>> >Salvador in 1491.
>> >Lanney
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Barry Conner <[e-mail]>
>> >To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> >Date: Friday, March 26, 1999 6:53 PM
>> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
>> >
>> >>Oh I found out how big Lanney was on a
>> >>trip to the parking area one day, wasn't sure if I had brought =
enough
>> >>supplies after looking him over, right Lanney.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>=20
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John W. Stephens" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
Date: 27 Mar 1999 07:16:25 -0800

Hey boys. This is way off topic. Why must it always be thus?

Rat cliff wrote:
>
> I think that too many people on this list have an unhealthy fascination with my behind.  You should seek counseling from highly qualified professionals to explore these latent tendencies before it's too late.  If you don't,   you may develop the urge to move to San Francisco or even the Oak Lawn section of Dallas......the fern bar capital of north Texas.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
Date: 27 Mar 1999 09:34:30 -0600

Hey John,
  I thought we were discussing the wearing clouts. Those that should and
those who might ought to have second thoughts.  Now sooner or later Lanney
will get on a tear about my bald head and that is a fact. Then we will be
discussing the wearing of hats.  To answer your question, that's just the
way we are !
Pendleton

----------
> From: John W. Stephens <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
> Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 9:16 AM
>
> Hey boys. This is way off topic. Why must it always be thus?
>
> Rat cliff wrote:
> >
> > I think that too many people on this list have an unhealthy fascination
with my behind.  You should seek counseling from highly qualified
professionals to explore these latent tendencies before it's too late.  If
you don't,   you may develop the urge to move to San Francisco or even the
Oak Lawn section of Dallas......the fern bar capital of north Texas.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
Date: 27 Mar 1999 09:39:49 -0600

Just to set the record straight, my brother Lanney wouldn't be caught dead
in a clout.
Pendleton

----------
> From: larry pendleton <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
> Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 9:34 AM
>
> Hey John,
>   I thought we were discussing the wearing clouts. Those that should and
> those who might ought to have second thoughts.  Now sooner or later
Lanney
> will get on a tear about my bald head and that is a fact. Then we will be
> discussing the wearing of hats.  To answer your question, that's just the
> way we are !
> Pendleton
>
> ----------
> > From: John W. Stephens <[e-mail]>
> > To: [e-mail]
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
> > Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 9:16 AM
> >
> > Hey boys. This is way off topic. Why must it always be thus?
> >
> > Rat cliff wrote:
> > >
> > > I think that too many people on this list have an unhealthy
fascination
> with my behind.  You should seek counseling from highly qualified
> professionals to explore these latent tendencies before it's too late.
If
> you don't,   you may develop the urge to move to San Francisco or even
the
> Oak Lawn section of Dallas......the fern bar capital of north Texas.
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gary Bell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: walnut dye
Date: 27 Mar 1999 07:46:22 -0800

Susan,

Could you check the internet URL you sent us about dyestuffs, my system can't find it (the
".47.pair.com" part I think), I suspect a mean ol' typo snuck in......

I directly copied the text of your message, and tried to hit on:

http://www.47.pair.com/lindo/dyelist.htm

Thanks in advance, I'm dying to learn about this stuff......

Gary Bell,

Susan Gilbert wrote:

> You can find out all you need at www.47.pair.com/lindo/dyelist.htm.  It's a natural dye list
> that I've found very well done and useful.
>
> Old Hands
>
> Sue Gilbert
> [e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Brian McNutt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
Date: 27 Mar 1999 09:52:16 -0600

Gee, and I just finished one for him. I could have made a great 18' lodge
out of that stuff......
Brian

-----Original Message-----


>Just to set the record straight, my brother Lanney wouldn't be caught dead
>in a clout.
>Pendleton







-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: walnut dye
Date: 27 Mar 1999 10:58:45 EST

> Could you check the internet URL you sent us about dyestuffs.
>  Thanks in advance, I'm dying to learn about this stuff......

I don't remember the URL, but I think the information on the dyelist page is
an article I wrote.  She asked me permission to post it there.  If you search
the archives of this list, you will probably find the same information, as we
have discussed it at length in the past.  I'd send you the article, but I
didn't save it.  It's on the old computer in the basement.

Dave Kanger



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
Date: 27 Mar 1999 12:01:29 -0500

Lanney,

You're the one that sleeps right close to him, 'Ol buddy... Matter of fact
you two were right cozy in Mo last year...

D

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


I think that too many people on this list have an unhealthy fascination with
my behind.  You should seek counseling from highly qualified professionals
to explore these latent tendencies before it's too late.  If you don't,
you may develop the urge to move to San Francisco or even the Oak Lawn
section of Dallas......the fern bar capital of north Texas.
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----


>I'm talking HIINNEY BO [ASS] for days.  Somehow this plate of ham and eggs
>just don't shine no more.
>Pendleton
>
>----------
>> From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail]
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
>> Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 7:43 AM
>>
>> Buck, there are people trying to eat breakfast now.  The thought of me in
>a clout will doubtless cause many of them to set down their Cheerios and
>go lay down for a spell......maybe with a damp cloth on their forehead.
>Have some compassion, man.
>> Lanney
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Barry Conner <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 7:38 AM
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
>>
>>
>> >No, he would have gotten blown over with the cross winds from your
>clout.
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
>> >To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> >Date: Friday, March 26, 1999 8:15 PM
>> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
>> >
>> >
>> >I'm not commenting  about my dainty size except to say that if
>Christopher
>> >Colombus had used one of my shirts for a sail he would have gotten to
>San
>> >Salvador in 1491.
>> >Lanney
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Barry Conner <[e-mail]>
>> >To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> >Date: Friday, March 26, 1999 6:53 PM
>> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
>> >
>> >>Oh I found out how big Lanney was on a
>> >>trip to the parking area one day, wasn't sure if I had brought enough
>> >>supplies after looking him over, right Lanney.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
Date: 27 Mar 1999 11:20:45 -0600

Not that cozy !
Pendleton

----------
> From: Dennis Miles <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
> Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 11:01 AM
>
> Lanney,
>
> You're the one that sleeps right close to him, 'Ol buddy... Matter of
fact
> you two were right cozy in Mo last year...
>
> D
>
>    "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>   Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>     http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 9:58 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
>
>
> I think that too many people on this list have an unhealthy fascination
with
> my behind.  You should seek counseling from highly qualified
professionals
> to explore these latent tendencies before it's too late.  If you don't,
> you may develop the urge to move to San Francisco or even the Oak Lawn
> section of Dallas......the fern bar capital of north Texas.
> Lanney Ratcliff
> -----Original Message-----
> From: larry pendleton <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 8:42 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
>
>
> >I'm talking HIINNEY BO [ASS] for days.  Somehow this plate of ham and
eggs
> >just don't shine no more.
> >Pendleton
> >
> >----------
> >> From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
> >> To: [e-mail]
> >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
> >> Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 7:43 AM
> >>
> >> Buck, there are people trying to eat breakfast now.  The thought of me
in
> >a clout will doubtless cause many of them to set down their Cheerios and
> >go lay down for a spell......maybe with a damp cloth on their forehead.
> >Have some compassion, man.
> >> Lanney
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Barry Conner <[e-mail]>
> >> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> >> Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 7:38 AM
> >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
> >>
> >>
> >> >No, he would have gotten blown over with the cross winds from your
> >clout.
> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
> >> >To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> >> >Date: Friday, March 26, 1999 8:15 PM
> >> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >I'm not commenting  about my dainty size except to say that if
> >Christopher
> >> >Colombus had used one of my shirts for a sail he would have gotten to
> >San
> >> >Salvador in 1491.
> >> >Lanney
> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >From: Barry Conner <[e-mail]>
> >> >To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> >> >Date: Friday, March 26, 1999 6:53 PM
> >> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
> >> >
> >> >>Oh I found out how big Lanney was on a
> >> >>trip to the parking area one day, wasn't sure if I had brought
enough
> >> >>supplies after looking him over, right Lanney.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
>
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: towels
Date: 27 Mar 1999 13:25:17 -0700

I haven't found any explicit mentions of towels in the fur trade, but back
in Upper Canada before 1840, linen was used for towels. It was usually plain
woven (one threads over, threads under), but could be twill woven (two
threads over, two threads under) or woven in the huckabuck pattern, which
looks sort of like this:
| |=====| |======| |
===| |======| |===
| |=====| |======| |
So buy plain white linen tea towelling and you'll be using what they'd have
used, had they decided to bother at all. (This info comes from Dorothy K.
Burnham, _Keep Me Warm One Night_.)

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: walnut dye
Date: 27 Mar 1999 16:35:52 -0600

   ><< until
   >its as dark as you want. remove it from the dye rinse,then work it
   >like any other brain-tan until dry.
   >jeff..... another question...... do i have to use some kind of
   >mordant to set the dye after i get it to the right color.... if not,
   >will it leach, bleach or otherwise come back out of the leather....
   >like all over my trade shirt, chemise, etc.????
   >mary
WELL......,I haven't had that problem yet. And I sweat like a pig! As for a
mordant I've never used one with walnut hulls. If you want to use a mordant
that will darken the dye to nearly black throw a handful of iron nails in a
coffee can full of water and let soak until there is a nasty mess of rusty
water then add it to your dye. I generally accept some leaching as a natural
part of the experience along with some uneven dying (sort of like 60's tye
dye). But I don't have the 18th century(my favorite period) european nit
picking for perfection,I portray a Seneca warrior(semi-retired due to old
age) who's major concern is that it looks good to me! Now quill-work and
bead-work have to be pleasing to the eye and is an area for close scrutiny!
(VBG)
     When I'm talking about the hulls I mean the green pulpy outer skin on
the walnut,MAKE SURE TO WEAR RUBBER GLOVESwhen hulling walnuts, the first
time I hulled about 3 bushels without them (I did this in late Oct.)I still
had black to brown colored hands at Christmas!
Jeff Powers,A mind like a steel trap:Rusty and illegal in 37 states!

"They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin 1698

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: claw question
Date: 27 Mar 1999 18:23:19 EST

OK, I've pulled a half dozen claws out of the hide, now I'm not sure what I to
do with them.

I'd like to dry them and string them into a neckless, but I'd appreciate some
advice on how to get the excess meat off them and how to preserve them to they
will last a while.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:history channel--the mountain man (long)
Date: 27 Mar 1999 18:43:39 -0500

Thanks for the memories.  You are right.   All we saw were the credits before
the screen went.  I do miss the old days of Crazy Bear and the CAt soldiers.
And the sweats.

Linda

Barry Conner wrote:

> Linda,
>
> That was a special showing at the Western Nationals at La Veta Colorado in
> 1980, but all we saw were the credits, then the wind blew down the
> make-shiff screen and ended the show. The best part of the whole evening was
> Heston stepping up, held his hands to the sky and said "How soon they
> forget", like he was in the "Ten Commandments".
>
> Have been in a half dozen Hollywood movies and as far as what they did in
> the "Mountainmen" was average.  "Black Robe" was a completely different
> story, there are some directors that have a better grasp on what's happening
> than others that may have been mislead. Overall things seem to keep
> improving as more knowledgable folks get involved.
>
> As far as Heston goes he's an actor and prides himself in that, Keith was
> the one we hung out with at night and he brought the booze, and told us all
> the old war stories. The next day he couldn't remember his lines, and that
> went on for the three and half weeks we were there.
>
> As far as the cash lady, think it was "Big Step" and "Crazy Bear" that got
> blamed for that.
>
> Buck
> __________________
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Friday, March 26, 1999 3:14 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:history channel--the mountain man (long)
>
> >I thought the world premier was at La Junta, Colorado????  1980???  or was
> that
> >just a special showing for the Mountain men, and ladies, camped out at the
> Western
> >Rend.???? And we didn't have to pay.
> >But then we never got to see it either.  The wind came down and torn the
> screen in
> >half.  Now there was something Heston could not stop.  Then they moved the
> movie
> >down to the drive-in
> >theater and bussed us "campers" into town to see the thing.  BTW...the town
> mayor
> >is still looking for the cashier.  Seems she ran off with some wily
> buckskinners.
> >And then there was something about damaging the speakers by counting coup
> on the
> >things????  Were any of you guys on the bus???
> >
> >Linda Holley
> >
> >




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods OT
Date: 27 Mar 1999 17:19:20 -0700

Heck think about me as a trader, trying to hawk edibles at that event, old
friend it was an experience.
Buck

-----Original Message-----


Buck, there are people trying to eat breakfast now.  The thought of me in a
clout will doubtless cause many of them to set down their Cheerios and  go
lay down for a spell......





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Richard Pickert <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: claws
Date: 27 Mar 1999 16:52:09 -0800 (PST)


I use a lot of different claws in my craft work and I like to soak them
in (tanol) aluminum solfate. for a day or two> do not soak them too long
as the will come apart. this is available at most tanning and taxidermy
supply houses.
good luck

Walks in the Night
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Carpenters <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: claw question
Date: 27 Mar 1999 16:47:47 -0800



[e-mail] wrote:
>
> OK, I've pulled a half dozen claws out of the hide, now I'm not sure what I to
> do with them.
>
> I'd like to dry them and string them into a neckless, but I'd appreciate some
> advice on how to get the excess meat off them and how to preserve them to they
> will last a while.

The way I get all the flesh off a scull, is to bury it about four inches
under ground and let the worms and whatever else eat it off.  It has to
be good active soil, i.e., not sand or rocky dirt.  I'll bet this will
work with claws also.  It takes a couple months.

Carp



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Susan Gilbert" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dye list address correction
Date: 26 Mar 1999 19:55:07 -0600 (CST)


Oopps!  Sorry.  The address for the Natural Dye List is

http://www47.pair.com/lindo/dyelist.htm

I got one dot too many in there, very sorry.


Old Hands

Sue Gilbert
[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:history channel--the mountain man --The last word?
Date: 27 Mar 1999 01:04:02 EST

From a Hollywood Producer Friend:

The truth is almost NONE of the History Channel (or their parent, A&E
Biographies) are worth a damn content-wise. Almost no money goes into
research. However they DO pay the talking heads. Actually it's the
talking head interviews that serve as the primary research. The narration
is merely a device to string together the soundbites and photos, and
usually paraphrases something the talking head just said or will say
again shortly.

Ken Burns does an admirable job of research. However with his grossly
inflated budgets, he ought to be able to raise Lincoln from the dead and
get an exclusive interview. However his visual style is repetetive and I
wish he'd find some new ways to fill the screen besides yet another
babbling brook at sunset!



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john c. funk,jr" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: On horse "wild" horse training.
Date: 28 Mar 1999 06:59:37 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE78E8.8AF1C9C0
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello the camp,

Since the mode of travel, in those better days, was done mostly on horse =
back and there seems to be little information regarding the capturing, =
gentling and training of wild horses, I am wondering if anyone on the =
list has had experience in training a wild horse; more specifically one =
of the BLM wild mustang breeds.  I've got a bee in my bonnet and want to =
take the "bit", as it were, and "run with it."  There can't be too many =
ways left to replicate the horse culture of the plains as it related to =
the mountain men and this is something I'm seriously considering.

So, if any of you'll have trained one of these wild critters I'd sure =
like to pick your brain(s).

Yr Mst Humbl.......

John Funk

------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE78E8.8AF1C9C0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3612.1700"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hello the camp,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Since the mode of travel, in those =
better days,=20
was done mostly on horse back and there seems to be little information =
regarding=20
the capturing, gentling and training of wild horses, I am wondering if =
anyone on=20
the list has had experience in training a wild horse; more specifically =
one of=20
the BLM wild mustang breeds.  I've got a bee in my bonnet and want =
to take=20
the "bit", as it were, and "run with it."  =
There can't=20
be too many ways left to replicate the horse culture of the plains as it =
related=20
to the mountain men and this is something I'm seriously=20
considering.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>So, if any of you'll have trained =
one of these=20
wild critters I'd sure like to pick your brain(s).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Yr Mst Humbl.......</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>John Funk</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE78E8.8AF1C9C0--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On horse "wild" horse training.
Date: 28 Mar 1999 08:21:45 -0800

Brother,

My wife got a bright idea about 20 years ago to pickup one of these animals (wild mustang), we already had 8 good horses at the time. Anyway we go get him with the stock trailer ("open slots in side so our new boy can see out and this will make loading a little easier"), brother is that the dumbest statement my wife ever made. This was an animal about 14 1/2 hands in height, maybe 750 lbs. and "dune" colored, like the horse in the "Range Rider" series. Anyway the vet says after his exam he pretty old according to his teeth and will need to be cut - that's fine. We go to load the little bastard (no other word to describe him than that), the fight goes on for 3/4 of an hour with the usual methods, finally 3 of us just pick the little guy up and throw his butt in the trailer, funny when everyone is mad how strong you get. Now we should have seen what the game plan was going to be !!!

We get him home and call the college at CSU to have a vet and the students come out for the grand cutting. Turns out after closer inspection, he's younger than first thought, his teeth are wore down from eating off poor range and the sand wore his teeth, like the Asian folks eating rice with fine sand - poor teeth.

After being broke which was a chore and some good schooling, "Nugget" turned out to be the hardest working of all the horses, couldn't wear him down, even took him to a friend for the winter months to be worked in the stock yards with some pretty rank steers, he just never quit. Plus being a character, had a real funny personality, could do little pranks that made you mad at the time but later made you laugh. Best damn horse we ever had (of the 30 plus in 15 years), even with some hard fights at first.

Have talked to several people that have gotten these little "wild mustangs", seems we all have like stories with them, and would take another one in a heart beat.  Good luck and just take your time, he'll come around.

Buck Conner
_________________________
I am wondering if anyone on the list has had experience in training a wild horse; more specifically one of the BLM wild mustang breeds.  I've got a bee in my bonnet and want to take the "bit", as it were, and "run with it."  There can't be too many ways left to replicate the horse culture of the plains as it related to the mountain men and this is something I'm seriously



Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On horse "wild" horse training.
Date: 28 Mar 1999 08:21:45 -0800

Brother,

My wife got a bright idea about 20 years ago to pickup one of these animals (wild mustang), we already had 8 good horses at the time. Anyway we go get him with the stock trailer ("open slots in side so our new boy can see out and this will make loading a little easier"), brother is that the dumbest statement my wife ever made. This was an animal about 14 1/2 hands in height, maybe 750 lbs. and "dune" colored, like the horse in the "Range Rider" series. Anyway the vet says after his exam he pretty old according to his teeth and will need to be cut - that's fine. We go to load the little bastard (no other word to describe him than that), the fight goes on for 3/4 of an hour with the usual methods, finally 3 of us just pick the little guy up and throw his butt in the trailer, funny when everyone is mad how strong you get. Now we should have seen what the game plan was going to be !!!

We get him home and call the college at CSU to have a vet and the students come out for the grand cutting. Turns out after closer inspection, he's younger than first thought, his teeth are wore down from eating off poor range and the sand wore his teeth, like the Asian folks eating rice with fine sand - poor teeth.

After being broke which was a chore and some good schooling, "Nugget" turned out to be the hardest working of all the horses, couldn't wear him down, even took him to a friend for the winter months to be worked in the stock yards with some pretty rank steers, he just never quit. Plus being a character, had a real funny personality, could do little pranks that made you mad at the time but later made you laugh. Best damn horse we ever had (of the 30 plus in 15 years), even with some hard fights at first.

Have talked to several people that have gotten these little "wild mustangs", seems we all have like stories with them, and would take another one in a heart beat.  Good luck and just take your time, he'll come around.

Buck Conner
_________________________
I am wondering if anyone on the list has had experience in training a wild horse; more specifically one of the BLM wild mustang breeds.  I've got a bee in my bonnet and want to take the "bit", as it were, and "run with it."  There can't be too many ways left to replicate the horse culture of the plains as it related to the mountain men and this is something I'm seriously



Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:history channel--the mountain man (long)
Date: 28 Mar 1999 09:09:01 -0800

Linda,

Think Buck and myself talked to you at this movie and again at La Veta, what Buck said brought back some good memories. Brian Keith, Big Step & Crazy Bear were at our camp in Hoback Junction just about every night, what a group, sad that Brian and John have gone to the other side now.

I missed the American Sportsman Shoot for the "John Wayne Memorial" at Jackson Hole, Buck was the Range Officer, Keith and Heston showed up for the egg shoot, Keith shot in the ground then eat his egg, Heston tried to lay down over a log. Buck turned around and headed over there with the TV camera's following, he told Heston to stand up and shoot like a man. Hear Heston didn't care for that remark, but stood up and shot and missed his egg. Then started to walk away, but Buck went and got the egg and took it to him, TV camera's got it all. Heston ate his egg, looked a little quezzy after.

Powderhawk

_____________________
On Sat, 27 March 1999, Linda Holley wrote:

>
> Thanks for the memories.  You are right.   All we saw were the credits before
> the screen went.  I do miss the old days of Crazy Bear and the CAt soldiers.
> And the sweats.
>
> Linda



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
Date: 28 Mar 1999 09:20:53 -0800

Check out Clark & Sons Mercantile, Goose Bay Workshops is now starting to handle some stuff also, both are on Dean's AMM list for URL's.

Powderhawk


On Fri, 26 March 1999, "Austin, Tim" wrote:

>
> Loaf sugar:  Good explanation has been given for this type sugar........
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
Date: 28 Mar 1999 09:20:53 -0800

Check out Clark & Sons Mercantile, Goose Bay Workshops is now starting to handle some stuff also, both are on Dean's AMM list for URL's.

Powderhawk


On Fri, 26 March 1999, "Austin, Tim" wrote:

>
> Loaf sugar:  Good explanation has been given for this type sugar........
>


Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On horse "wild" horse training.
Date: 28 Mar 1999 10:52:39 -0700

John,
The honor farm in Riverton Wyo breaks and trains wild horses. They had 85
of them and only 23 were broke to ride. I believe it is a waste of time
when so many good horses are around. They are not that close to the spanish
barbs. Many mtn men and buffalo hunters perfered the larger eastern bred
horse to the Indian ponies. I can find the source for this if you want.
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On horse "wild" horse training.
Date: 28 Mar 1999 13:41:34 -0500

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My neighbor has such a horse, and he is GREAT!!!  His names is Ash... He =
is Dunn color mostly, and the rest of him looks like he has been rolling =
in an ash pile...  He had to be taught what apples were... loved carrots =
but would spit out apples.  He plays with our 2 dogs who think he is =
nothing more than a big "dog"... They haven't figured out yet why he =
whinnies instead of barks, but hey... the world is full of mysteries.

The lady who has him tamed him the "Indian way"... For 3 days she left =
him in the corral... no food or water... then on the third day, brought =
him cold spring water and grain and hay, then talked soothingly to him =
and stroked his neck while he ate.  She has done that every day since.  =
She proably saddle broke him via the way we do today... not sure.  He is =
a kind and gentle horse, and FULL of love for everyone.  He keeps =
trying, no matter what the task you give him, and doesn't know the =
meaning of tired, I don't think.  He sees us by our pool and will =
whinney until we go bring him some carrots or apples... Then just =
nuzzles us and rubs against us like a cat... *LOL*... almost knocked =
Mouse down... She is 5'2", 120#... Ash is about 15 hands and near 1000#.

I have just over an acre that hasn't been cleared (house sits on 3 =
acres) and I am contemplating doing the same thing next year possibly.  =
Being in South Florida, you don't have to wory about the cold, so a =
nice, open pole barn will work great for the horse. I wrote via the web =
to BLM(?) regarding their wild horse program, etc... and got a great =
brochure about the horses, what kind of accomodations were required for =
them (they even inspect your place), what my responsibilities were, =
etc...

Addison Miller
aka SeanBear


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<HEAD>

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http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>My neighbor has such a horse, and he =
is=20
GREAT!!!  His names is Ash... He is Dunn color mostly, and the rest =
of him=20
looks like he has been rolling in an ash pile...  He had to be =
taught what=20
apples were... loved carrots but would spit out apples.  He plays =
with our=20
2 dogs who think he is nothing more than a big "dog"... They =
haven't=20
figured out yet why he whinnies instead of barks, but hey... the world =
is full=20
of mysteries.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The lady who has him tamed him the "Indian =
way"...=20
For 3 days she left him in the corral... no food or water... then on the =
third=20
day, brought him cold spring water and grain and hay, then talked =
soothingly to=20
him and stroked his neck while he ate.  She has done that every day =

since.  She proably saddle broke him via the way we do today... not =

sure.  He is a kind and gentle horse, and FULL of love for =
everyone. =20
He keeps trying, no matter what the task you give him, and doesn't know =
the=20
meaning of tired, I don't think.  He sees us by our pool and will =
whinney=20
until we go bring him some carrots or apples... Then just nuzzles us and =
rubs=20
against us like a cat... *LOL*... almost knocked Mouse down... She is =
5'2",=20
120#... Ash is about 15 hands and near 1000#.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I have just over an acre that hasn't been cleared =
(house sits=20
on 3 acres) and I am contemplating doing the same thing next year=20
possibly.  Being in South Florida, you don't have to wory about the =
cold,=20
so a nice, open pole barn will work great for the horse. I wrote via the =
web to=20
BLM(?) regarding their wild horse program, etc... and got a great =
brochure about=20
the horses, what kind of accomodations were required for them (they even =
inspect=20
your place), what my responsibilities were, etc...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Addison Miller</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>aka SeanBear</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On horse "wild" horse training.
Date: 28 Mar 1999 13:45:05 -0500

<SNIP>

> I believe it is a waste of time when so many good horses are around....<

Sorry to disagree, but as long as you are keeping them from going to a dog
food plant, or from being otherwise destroyed, it's not a waste of time,
IMHO...

No, I am not one of those animal rights nuts... love hunting, etc... I just
have to see good animals destroyed when they can be made "useful" and others
can enjoy them...

Addison Miller





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On horse "wild" horse training.
Date: 28 Mar 1999 12:01:18 -0800

Brothers,

I helped break and work with the horse Buck referred to, he turned out to be a strong little man, but the amount of effort to get him there was qusetionable to me. Like others have said, there's many good broke animals needing a home that are better than some of the wild ones. You may want to give this some thought before jumping into something more than wanting to deal with for a long period.

Bones take a long time healing, ask Buck, he left that part out.

Later

Powderhawk

____________________________
On Sun, 28 March 1999, [e-mail] wrote:

> After being broke which was a chore and some good schooling, "Nugget" turned out to be the hardest working of all the horses, couldn't wear him down, even took him to a friend for the winter months to be worked in the stock yards with some pretty rank steers, he just never quit. Plus being a character, had a real funny personality...........
>
> Buck Conner
> _________________________
> I am wondering if anyone on the list has had experience in training a wild horse; more specifically one of the BLM wild mustang breeds.  I've got a bee in my bonnet and want to take the "bit", as it were, and "run with it."  There can't be too many ways left to replicate the horse culture of the plains as it related to the mountain men and this is something I'm seriously...........
>


Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On horse "wild" horse training.
Date: 28 Mar 1999 12:01:18 -0800

Brothers,

I helped break and work with the horse Buck referred to, he turned out to be a strong little man, but the amount of effort to get him there was qusetionable to me. Like others have said, there's many good broke animals needing a home that are better than some of the wild ones. You may want to give this some thought before jumping into something more than wanting to deal with for a long period.

Bones take a long time healing, ask Buck, he left that part out.

Later

Powderhawk

____________________________
On Sun, 28 March 1999, [e-mail] wrote:

> After being broke which was a chore and some good schooling, "Nugget" turned out to be the hardest working of all the horses, couldn't wear him down, even took him to a friend for the winter months to be worked in the stock yards with some pretty rank steers, he just never quit. Plus being a character, had a real funny personality...........
>
> Buck Conner
> _________________________
> I am wondering if anyone on the list has had experience in training a wild horse; more specifically one of the BLM wild mustang breeds.  I've got a bee in my bonnet and want to take the "bit", as it were, and "run with it."  There can't be too many ways left to replicate the horse culture of the plains as it related to the mountain men and this is something I'm seriously...........
>


Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On horse "wild" horse training.
Date: 28 Mar 1999 12:01:18 -0800

Brothers,

I helped break and work with the horse Buck referred to, he turned out to be a strong little man, but the amount of effort to get him there was qusetionable to me. Like others have said, there's many good broke animals needing a home that are better than some of the wild ones. You may want to give this some thought before jumping into something more than wanting to deal with for a long period.

Bones take a long time healing, ask Buck, he left that part out.

Later

Powderhawk

____________________________
On Sun, 28 March 1999, [e-mail] wrote:

> After being broke which was a chore and some good schooling, "Nugget" turned out to be the hardest working of all the horses, couldn't wear him down, even took him to a friend for the winter months to be worked in the stock yards with some pretty rank steers, he just never quit. Plus being a character, had a real funny personality...........
>
> Buck Conner
> _________________________
> I am wondering if anyone on the list has had experience in training a wild horse; more specifically one of the BLM wild mustang breeds.  I've got a bee in my bonnet and want to take the "bit", as it were, and "run with it."  There can't be too many ways left to replicate the horse culture of the plains as it related to the mountain men and this is something I'm seriously...........
>


Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Laura Rugel Glise <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Goods
Date: 28 Mar 1999 15:58:41 +0000

Lanney Roux in a clout?  Doesn't scare me.  Maybe you menfolk ought not
to go on and on and ON about things of which you have no experience.

A woman



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: On horse "wild" horse training.
Date: 28 Mar 1999 19:25:20 -0600

>>>Hello the camp,

Since the mode of travel, in those better days, was done mostly on horse
back and there seems to be little information regarding the capturing,
gentling and training of wild horses, I am wondering if anyone on the list
has had experience in training a wild horse; more specifically one of the
BLM wild mustang breeds.  I've got a bee in my bonnet and want to take the
"bit", as it were, and "run with it."  There can't be too many ways left to
replicate the horse culture of the plains as it related to the mountain men
and this is something I'm seriously considering.

So, if any of you'll have trained one of these wild critters I'd sure like
to pick your brain(s).

Yr Mst Humbl.......
John Funk<<<

This reminds me of a time several years back I was driving to work,( I am in
the logging business and this particular job was a ways back in the bush, on
federal land, not near any habitations of any kind) anyway it was a November
morning with about 2" of fresh snowcover and I was the first one in, and I
came across the strangest set of tracks I have ever seen , so I pulled my
truck over and followed it into the woods a ways to see what it was. They
where moose sized and it looled like it was dragging something which
partially obliterated the tracks and made them hard to read. Really had me
scratchin my head there for a while. Well, to make a long story short, one
of the locals who lived a dozen or so miles off had decided he needed to get
a couple mustangs, which he did, then brought em' home and put em'  in his
pasture figuring his regular fence would be adequate, except he left a lead
on them to make them easier to catch, boy was that a bad idea since they
where gone in no time. I know he caught one several months later, don't know
if he ever got the other one. I would spot one occasionally on my way in and
out of work, couldn't get close to it though, it was really nervous.

If your familiar with breaking horses and have worked with horses in general
than a mustang isn't an impossible thing to get working for you. Your just
trying to teach an old dog new tricks, except this dog can do worse than
bite you if it has a mind to.
the last book I read on the subject was by Monty Roberts called "The Man Who
Listens to Horses" I think that is the title. The movie "The Horse
Whisperer" was based on this guys life. Really enjoyed this book. He breaks
a mustang IN THE WILD without ever having restrained the horse whatsoever.
Read the book and you'll find out how.

From the northwoods,

Tony Clark




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john c. funk,jr" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Horse training (and such)
Date: 28 Mar 1999 19:29:19 -0800

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Gang,

My most grateful thanks to those who responded to my quire regarding =
their "horse training" experiences.  I know this may be a bit off the =
historical link but it's all in an effort in helping this follower of =
the fur trade finding his niche therein.
Tony: BLM (in Calif.) now wants a minimum of 400 sq. ft. pin and =
strongly recommends that the new adoptees not be let out to pasture till =
thoroughly "trained."  Sounds like sound advise even it they hadn't =
suggested it.  I have followed Monty Roberts for several years and =
thoroughly subscribe to his training methods.  His, I think, methods =
have similarities to the old Native American ways.  Gentile =
training....not beating into submission.  "Beating" may be too harsh, =
but I think you know what I mean.
Powderhawk:  I wholeheartedly agree that a good home with good  and =
loving care is far better than a bitter and sparse existence on the open =
range.  I kind of look at it this way; he's giving up his freedom ....to =
give me mine.
Sean:  I too have read of the "Indian" way of breaking and =
training.....several days alone ..then water, food, gentile coaxing and =
familiarization with human contact.  The principals are sound and hold =
much validity.
I would be happy to keep in contact with you to let you know how it goes =
with my "critter."  And,  would be greatly interested how you do.  Be =
happy to exchange information.....and any help.  I'll take all I can =
get!!!
Joe:  I think that things that are "a waste of time" can be considered =
....relative by nature.  What is a waste of time for one can be an =
extremely rewarding thing to another.  No offense intended, just my =
observation and I respect yours.
Buck:  Nugget sounded like a heck of a horse and no doubt held in great =
pride by "his owner."  I had the opportunity to watch a gal work with =
one of these horses yesterday and within TWO hours this wild animal that =
was only 90 +/- days off the range allowed her top place her hands =
anywhere.  She even brought in a white plastic tied to a 5 ft. fishing =
rod and slowly moved it about the 20 ft. ring.  The horse watched it =
intently never taking his eyes off it.  He'd shiver, move back yet all =
the while wanting to move closer to inspect it; smell it.  Was it =
dangerous?  Would it hurt him?  He truly wanted to know.  His front feet =
moved backward while his rear wanted to move foreword to complete the =
investigation.. A true picture of "flight or fight."

Well, I've rambled on enough.  Guess you can tell I'm hooked and will =
very likely move on with this adventure.  I tend to look at it this way. =
 I'm at a point in life where I've decided I not going to my grave =
wishing I'd done something that I could have done if I had =
only.....................

If anyone would like updates on my progress I'd be happy to keep you =
posted.  And, any other input will be gratefully accepted.

Yr Mst Humbl........
John Funk

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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Gang,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>My most grateful thanks to those who =
responded=20
to my quire regarding their "horse training" =
experiences.  I know=20
this may be a bit off the historical link but it's all in an effort in =
helping=20
this follower of the fur trade finding his niche therein.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Tony: BLM (in Calif.) now wants a =
minimum of 400=20
sq. ft. pin and strongly recommends that the new adoptees not be let out =
to=20
pasture till thoroughly "trained."  Sounds like sound =
advise even=20
it they hadn't suggested it.  I have followed Monty Roberts for =
several=20
years and thoroughly subscribe to his training methods.  His, I =
think,=20
methods have similarities to the old Native American ways.  Gentile =

training....not beating into submission.  "Beating" may =
be too=20
harsh, but I think you know what I mean.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Powderhawk:  I wholeheartedly agree that a good =
home with=20
good  and loving care is far better than a bitter and sparse =
existence on=20
the open range.  I kind of look at it this way; he's giving up his =
freedom=20
....to give me mine.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Sean:  I too have read of the =
"Indian" way of=20
breaking and training.....several days alone ..then water, food, gentile =
coaxing=20
and familiarization with human contact.  The principals are sound =
and hold=20
much validity.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I would be happy to keep in contact with you to let =
you know=20
how it goes with my "critter."  And,  would be =
greatly=20
interested how you do.  Be happy to exchange information.....and =
any=20
help.  I'll take all I can get!!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Joe:  I think that things that are "a =
waste of=20
time" can be considered ....relative by nature.  What is a =
waste of=20
time for one can be an extremely rewarding thing to another.  No =
offense=20
intended, just my observation and I respect yours.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Buck:  Nugget sounded like a heck of a horse =
and no doubt=20
held in great pride by "his owner."  I had the =
opportunity to=20
watch a gal work with one of these horses yesterday and within TWO hours =
this=20
wild animal that was only 90 +/- days off the range allowed her top =
place her=20
hands <EM>anywhere.</EM>  She even brought in a white plastic tied =
to a 5=20
ft. fishing rod and slowly moved it about the 20 ft. ring.  The =
horse=20
watched it intently never taking his eyes off it.  He'd shiver, =
move back=20
yet all the while wanting to move closer to inspect it; smell it.  =
Was it=20
dangerous?  Would it hurt him?  He truly wanted to know.  =
His=20
front feet moved backward while his rear wanted to move foreword to =
complete the=20
investigation.. A true picture of "flight or =
fight."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Well, I've rambled on enough.  Guess you can =
tell I'm=20
hooked and will very likely move on with this adventure.  I tend to =
look at=20
it this way.  I'm at a point in life where I've decided I not going =
to my=20
grave wishing I'd done something that I could have done if I had=20
only.....................</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>If anyone would like updates on my progress I'd be =
happy to=20
keep you posted.  And, any other input will be gratefully=20
accepted.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Yr Mst=20
Humbl........</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>John Funk</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "john c. funk,jr" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Woops!
Date: 28 Mar 1999 19:45:17 -0800

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Forgot one last bit of information....for the good of the corps.

BLM is currently (in Calif. at least and I suspect elsewhere) offering =
for sale wild horses taken from the Calif/Nev. high range areas:
Mares (some, rarely, with colts), geldings and yearlings.  Ages range =
from yearlings to 5 years.  Most seem to range in the area of 2 to 3 =
years.  Heights are 14 to 15 hands (56"-60"), 900 to 1100 lbs.  Minimum =
bid $125.00

There is a lot more inf.. available on there Government web sight. =
(don't have that right now but if anyone is interested I post it =
gladly.)

John Funk

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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Forgot one last bit of =
information....for the=20
good of the corps.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>BLM is currently (in Calif. at least =
and I=20
suspect elsewhere) offering for sale wild horses taken from the =
Calif/Nev. high=20
range areas:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Mares (some, rarely, with colts), =
geldings and=20
yearlings.  Ages range from yearlings to 5 years.  Most seem =
to range=20
in the area of 2 to 3 years.  Heights are 14 to 15 hands=20
(56"-60"), 900 to 1100 lbs.  Minimum bid =
$125.00</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>There is a lot more inf.. available =
on there=20
Government web sight. (don't have that right now but if anyone is =
interested I=20
post it gladly.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>John Funk</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john c. funk,jr" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Woops!
Date: 28 Mar 1999 19:45:17 -0800

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Forgot one last bit of information....for the good of the corps.

BLM is currently (in Calif. at least and I suspect elsewhere) offering =
for sale wild horses taken from the Calif/Nev. high range areas:
Mares (some, rarely, with colts), geldings and yearlings.  Ages range =
from yearlings to 5 years.  Most seem to range in the area of 2 to 3 =
years.  Heights are 14 to 15 hands (56"-60"), 900 to 1100 lbs.  Minimum =
bid $125.00

There is a lot more inf.. available on there Government web sight. =
(don't have that right now but if anyone is interested I post it =
gladly.)

John Funk

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<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3612.1700"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Forgot one last bit of =
information....for the=20
good of the corps.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>BLM is currently (in Calif. at least =
and I=20
suspect elsewhere) offering for sale wild horses taken from the =
Calif/Nev. high=20
range areas:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Mares (some, rarely, with colts), =
geldings and=20
yearlings.  Ages range from yearlings to 5 years.  Most seem =
to range=20
in the area of 2 to 3 years.  Heights are 14 to 15 hands=20
(56"-60"), 900 to 1100 lbs.  Minimum bid =
$125.00</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>There is a lot more inf.. available =
on there=20
Government web sight. (don't have that right now but if anyone is =
interested I=20
post it gladly.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>John Funk</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: walnut dye
Date: 29 Mar 1999 07:24:55 EST

thanks to one and all for the suggestions, ideas and warnings.  i shall heed
them all as i begin this tenuous journey.

scary mary'



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "The Brooks" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: cranberries.
Date: 30 Mar 1999 22:22:58 +1200


When I was in the US a couple of years ago I developed a taste for
Cranberries. They are almost unknown here in NZ but I did manage to find 1
small plant which I got and planted.It is now about 2 feet high and this
year had it's first crop. I have just picked about 2LB of fruit off, but I
think I may have left it too long to pick as the fruit while very sweet and
tasty is very fleshy and about half the crop has already dropped onto the
ground. Can anyone on the list tell me when the correct time to pick is? and
also what can I do with them now that I have them. I don't think there is
enough to make jelly or to juice but maybe in a couple of years. How big
will my bush get and how do I propagate the one I have to get some more
bushes. And last question did they grow wild in the paths of the MM and
Indians and if so did they use them or have they too been introduced into
the states from somewhere else.Will they dry well to be used as trail food?
Kia Ora
Big Bear
In stinking hot and muggy Marlborough NZ.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cranberries.
Date: 29 Mar 1999 17:32:03 -0500

Dry them.... They are great!!

Dennis


   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


>
>When I was in the US a couple of years ago I developed a taste for
>Cranberries. They are almost unknown here in NZ but I did manage to find 1
>small plant which I got and planted.It is now about 2 feet high and this
>year had it's first crop. I have just picked about 2LB of fruit off, but I
>think I may have left it too long to pick as the fruit while very sweet and
>tasty is very fleshy and about half the crop has already dropped onto the
>ground. Can anyone on the list tell me when the correct time to pick is?
and
>also what can I do with them now that I have them. I don't think there is
>enough to make jelly or to juice but maybe in a couple of years. How big
>will my bush get and how do I propagate the one I have to get some more
>bushes. And last question did they grow wild in the paths of the MM and
>Indians and if so did they use them or have they too been introduced into
>the states from somewhere else.Will they dry well to be used as trail food?
>Kia Ora
>Big Bear
>In stinking hot and muggy Marlborough NZ.
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cranberries.
Date: 29 Mar 1999 18:47:19 EST

In a message dated 99-03-29 17:28:49 EST, you write:

>  How big  will my bush get and how do I propagate the one I have to get some
>  more bushes.

To propogate any woody perennial:

Gather river willow saplings whenever the sap is running.  Early spring is
best.  Cut them into small pieces and crush them in a washtub.  Then cover
with water and leach.  You will get a soup.  Use this as your rooting medium.
Willow is a "magic" growth enhancer.

Take fresh cuttings from your plant, place in a jar, and cover 1/3 with the
soup.  You will get hair roots forming after a while.  When they are
sufficiently long, transfer the cutting to it's own pot filled with excelsior
or potting soil.  Continue to water with the willow soup.  After a time, you
can transplant the rooted cutting into the soil.  Prepare the soil so that it
is loose, and you might want to put a cut up carp or other trash fish in with
the loose soil.  Be sure to keep the plants well watered, but don't drown
them.  You should have plants growing within a month or so.

Dave Kanger



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "landis" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: bear jerky bug
Date: 29 Mar 1999 16:15:21 -0800

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So what  did people do back in the day when there was no test for bear =
meat and they made jerky or dried the meat? take their chances? would =
they not have done
for fear of getting sick? I had the bear jerky and did not get sick. =
Maybe I have an iron gut. Maybe I'm just lucky!                          =
          adam

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<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>So what  did people do back in the day when =
there was no=20
test for bear meat and they made jerky or dried the meat? take their =
chances?=20
would they not have done</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>for fear of getting sick? I had the bear jerky and =
did not get=20
sick. Maybe I have an iron gut. Maybe I'm just=20
lucky!           &=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp;           =20
adam</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bear jerky bug
Date: 29 Mar 1999 16:33:27 -0800


--------------C6A1A87ED570BD4C7B884953
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landis wrote:

>  So what  did people do back in the day when there was no test for
> bear meat and they made jerky or dried the meat? take their chances?
> would they not have donefor fear of getting sick? I had the bear jerky
> and did not get sick. Maybe I have an iron gut. Maybe I'm just
> lucky!                                    adam
>
> Adam,
>
> I think you have been lucky! I suspect that they either caught a case
> and didn't know it or the bears back then didn't carry it cause they
> hadn't been exposed to the same garbage our modern bears are exposed
> to. It may have not been the practice to make jerky from bear meat
> anyway. In any case it's a matter of common sense safety in this day
> and age. We know that bears carry the trichinosis bug today just as
> pigs do and we don't take the chance. We don't make jerky out of pig
> meat either.
>
> You can drink from lakes and streams many times and not catch a case
> of Giardia but the one time you do catch it you will wish you had
> always treated your water in some way. The effects of such diseases
> are never pleasent and many times can be life threatening. Why take
> the chance with your health and the safety and well being of your
> family while you are flat sick and not working, etc. Not worth it at
> all in my book. Beef and such makes better jerky anyway and it is
> safe. Take your bear meat and treat it like pork, make ham and bacon
> and chops and sausage, etc. Leave the jerky for another type of
> animal. I remain......
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'

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<p>landis wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE> <font size=-1>So what  did people do back
in the day when there was no test for bear meat and they made jerky or
dried the meat? take their chances? would they not have done</font><font size=-1>for
fear of getting sick? I had the bear jerky and did not get sick. Maybe
I have an iron gut. Maybe I'm just lucky!
adam</font><font size=-1></font>
<p><font size=-1>Adam,</font><font size=-1></font>
<p><font size=-1>I think you have been lucky! I suspect that they either
caught a case and didn't know it or the bears back then didn't carry it
cause they hadn't been exposed to the same garbage our modern bears are
exposed to. It may have not been the practice to make jerky from bear meat
anyway. In any case it's a matter of common sense safety in this day and
age. We know that bears carry the trichinosis bug today just as pigs do
and we don't take the chance. We don't make jerky out of pig meat either.</font><font size=-1></font>
<p><font size=-1>You can drink from lakes and streams many times and not
catch a case of Giardia but the one time you do catch it you will wish
you had always treated your water in some way. The effects of such diseases
are never pleasent and many times can be life threatening. Why take the
chance with your health and the safety and well being of your family while
you are flat sick and not working, etc. Not worth it at all in my book.
Beef and such makes better jerky anyway and it is safe. Take your bear
meat and treat it like pork, make ham and bacon and chops and sausage,
etc. Leave the jerky for another type of animal. I remain......</font><font size=-1></font>
<p><font size=-1>YMOS</font>
<br><font size=-1>Capt. Lahti'</font></blockquote>

</body>
</html>

--------------C6A1A87ED570BD4C7B884953--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bob Keefe" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Newbe needs advice
Date: 29 Mar 1999 20:27:34 -0500

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Hello to all of the list

        I am just trying to put together needs for my first season of =
rendezvous. I have run across an add in the local classifieds for a =
civil war officers wall tent and fly. How deferent would this be to fur =
trade?  How much work would it be to convert to period. I thank you for =
any and all help


------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BE7A22.94700A80
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hello to all of the =
list</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2>        I am=20
just trying to put together needs for my first season of rendezvous. I =
have run=20
across an add in the local classifieds for a civil war officers wall =
tent and=20
fly. How deferent would this be to fur trade?  How much work would =
it be to=20
convert to period. I thank you for any and all help</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john c. funk,jr" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cranberries.
Date: 29 Mar 1999 17:43:43 -0800

Big Bear,

Give me an address, if you like, and I'll send you some of what I purchase
locally.  There GREAT......sweet,dry and not pithy.  Give me a little time.
Got to get to town which is about 70 miles away.  We buy dried cranberries
by the bags at an extremely reasonable price.  Sorry, neither of us remember
the price or quantity.......but I'll send them anyway....if you like.

John Funk
[e-mail]
-----Original Message-----


>
>When I was in the US a couple of years ago I developed a taste for
>Cranberries. They are almost unknown here in NZ but I did manage to find 1
>small plant which I got and planted.It is now about 2 feet high and this
>year had it's first crop. I have just picked about 2LB of fruit off, but I
>think I may have left it too long to pick as the fruit while very sweet and
>tasty is very fleshy and about half the crop has already dropped onto the
>ground. Can anyone on the list tell me when the correct time to pick is?
and
>also what can I do with them now that I have them. I don't think there is
>enough to make jelly or to juice but maybe in a couple of years. How big
>will my bush get and how do I propagate the one I have to get some more
>bushes. And last question did they grow wild in the paths of the MM and
>Indians and if so did they use them or have they too been introduced into
>the states from somewhere else.Will they dry well to be used as trail food?
>Kia Ora
>Big Bear
>In stinking hot and muggy Marlborough NZ.
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "landis" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bear jerky bug
Date: 29 Mar 1999 17:31:32 -0800

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

thanks for the info i was just wonderin what they did if anything.how =
about muskrat jerky?                                                     =
adam
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 4:38 PM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bear jerky bug
   =20
   =20
     =20
    landis wrote:=20

         So what  did people do back in the day when there was no test =
for bear meat and they made jerky or dried the meat? take their chances? =
would they not have donefor fear of getting sick? I had the bear jerky =
and did not get sick. Maybe I have an iron gut. Maybe I'm just lucky!    =
                                adam=20
        Adam,=20

        I think you have been lucky! I suspect that they either caught a =
case and didn't know it or the bears back then didn't carry it cause =
they hadn't been exposed to the same garbage our modern bears are =
exposed to. It may have not been the practice to make jerky from bear =
meat anyway. In any case it's a matter of common sense safety in this =
day and age. We know that bears carry the trichinosis bug today just as =
pigs do and we don't take the chance. We don't make jerky out of pig =
meat either.=20

        You can drink from lakes and streams many times and not catch a =
case of Giardia but the one time you do catch it you will wish you had =
always treated your water in some way. The effects of such diseases are =
never pleasent and many times can be life threatening. Why take the =
chance with your health and the safety and well being of your family =
while you are flat sick and not working, etc. Not worth it at all in my =
book. Beef and such makes better jerky anyway and it is safe. Take your =
bear meat and treat it like pork, make ham and bacon and chops and =
sausage, etc. Leave the jerky for another type of animal. I remain...... =


        YMOS=20
        Capt. Lahti'


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<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"><!doctype html =
public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>thanks for the info i was just =
wonderin what=20
they did if anything.how about muskrat=20
jerky?           &=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp;           &nb=
sp;           &nbs=
p;    =20
adam</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Roger Lahti <<A=20
    href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>To: =
</B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Monday, March 29, 1999 4:38 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: =
MtMan-List: bear=20
    jerky bug<BR><BR></DIV></FONT> =20
    <P>landis wrote:=20
    <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE =3D CITE> <FONT size=3D-1>So what  did =
people do=20
        back in the day when there was no test for bear meat and they =
made jerky=20
        or dried the meat? take their chances? would they not have=20
        done</FONT><FONT size=3D-1>for fear of getting sick? I had the =
bear jerky=20
        and did not get sick. Maybe I have an iron gut. Maybe I'm just=20
        =
lucky!           &=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp;           =20
        adam</FONT><FONT size=3D-1></FONT>=20
        <P><FONT size=3D-1>Adam,</FONT><FONT size=3D-1></FONT>=20
        <P><FONT size=3D-1>I think you have been lucky! I suspect that =
they either=20
        caught a case and didn't know it or the bears back then didn't =
carry it=20
        cause they hadn't been exposed to the same garbage our modern =
bears are=20
        exposed to. It may have not been the practice to make jerky from =
bear=20
        meat anyway. In any case it's a matter of common sense safety in =
this=20
        day and age. We know that bears carry the trichinosis bug today =
just as=20
        pigs do and we don't take the chance. We don't make jerky out of =
pig=20
        meat either.</FONT><FONT size=3D-1></FONT>=20
        <P><FONT size=3D-1>You can drink from lakes and streams many =
times and not=20
        catch a case of Giardia but the one time you do catch it you =
will wish=20
        you had always treated your water in some way. The effects of =
such=20
        diseases are never pleasent and many times can be life =
threatening. Why=20
        take the chance with your health and the safety and well being =
of your=20
        family while you are flat sick and not working, etc. Not worth =
it at all=20
        in my book. Beef and such makes better jerky anyway and it is =
safe. Take=20
        your bear meat and treat it like pork, make ham and bacon and =
chops and=20
        sausage, etc. Leave the jerky for another type of animal. I=20
        remain......</FONT><FONT size=3D-1></FONT>=20
        <P><FONT size=3D-1>YMOS</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D-1>Capt.=20
    Lahti'</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0031_01BE7A09.FC90E080--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "landis" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: bear jerky bug
Date: 29 Mar 1999 17:47:44 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BE7A0C.3FE63400
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


-----Original Message-----


thanks for the info i was just wonderin what they did if anything.how =
about muskrat jerky?                                                     =
adam
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 4:38 PM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bear jerky bug
   =20
   =20
     =20
    landis wrote:=20

         So what  did people do back in the day when there was no test =
for bear meat and they made jerky or dried the meat? take their chances? =
would they not have donefor fear of getting sick? I had the bear jerky =
and did not get sick. Maybe I have an iron gut. Maybe I'm just lucky!    =
                                adam=20
        Adam,=20

        I think you have been lucky! I suspect that they either caught a =
case and didn't know it or the bears back then didn't carry it cause =
they hadn't been exposed to the same garbage our modern bears are =
exposed to. It may have not been the practice to make jerky from bear =
meat anyway. In any case it's a matter of common sense safety in this =
day and age. We know that bears carry the trichinosis bug today just as =
pigs do and we don't take the chance. We don't make jerky out of pig =
meat either.=20

        You can drink from lakes and streams many times and not catch a =
case of Giardia but the one time you do catch it you will wish you had =
always treated your water in some way. The effects of such diseases are =
never pleasent and many times can be life threatening. Why take the =
chance with your health and the safety and well being of your family =
while you are flat sick and not working, etc. Not worth it at all in my =
book. Beef and such makes better jerky anyway and it is safe. Take your =
bear meat and treat it like pork, make ham and bacon and chops and =
sausage, etc. Leave the jerky for another type of animal. I remain...... =


        YMOS=20
        Capt. Lahti'


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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML =
PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html =
4.0 transitional//en">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
</B>landis <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B=
>To:=20
</B><A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
<<A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
</B>Monday, March 29, 1999 5:31 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: MtMan-List: =
bear jerky=20
bug<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>thanks for the info i was just =
wonderin what=20
they did if anything.how about muskrat=20
jerky?           &=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp;           &nb=
sp;           &nbs=
p;    =20
adam</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Roger Lahti <<A=20
    href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>To: =
</B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Monday, March 29, 1999 4:38 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: =
MtMan-List: bear=20
    jerky bug<BR><BR></DIV></FONT> =20
    <P>landis wrote:=20
    <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE =3D CITE> <FONT size=3D-1>So what  did =
people do=20
        back in the day when there was no test for bear meat and they =
made jerky=20
        or dried the meat? take their chances? would they not have=20
        done</FONT><FONT size=3D-1>for fear of getting sick? I had the =
bear jerky=20
        and did not get sick. Maybe I have an iron gut. Maybe I'm just=20
        =
lucky!           &=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp;           =20
        adam</FONT><FONT size=3D-1></FONT>=20
        <P><FONT size=3D-1>Adam,</FONT><FONT size=3D-1></FONT>=20
        <P><FONT size=3D-1>I think you have been lucky! I suspect that =
they either=20
        caught a case and didn't know it or the bears back then didn't =
carry it=20
        cause they hadn't been exposed to the same garbage our modern =
bears are=20
        exposed to. It may have not been the practice to make jerky from =
bear=20
        meat anyway. In any case it's a matter of common sense safety in =
this=20
        day and age. We know that bears carry the trichinosis bug today =
just as=20
        pigs do and we don't take the chance. We don't make jerky out of =
pig=20
        meat either.</FONT><FONT size=3D-1></FONT>=20
        <P><FONT size=3D-1>You can drink from lakes and streams many =
times and not=20
        catch a case of Giardia but the one time you do catch it you =
will wish=20
        you had always treated your water in some way. The effects of =
such=20
        diseases are never pleasent and many times can be life =
threatening. Why=20
        take the chance with your health and the safety and well being =
of your=20
        family while you are flat sick and not working, etc. Not worth =
it at all=20
        in my book. Beef and such makes better jerky anyway and it is =
safe. Take=20
        your bear meat and treat it like pork, make ham and bacon and =
chops and=20
        sausage, etc. Leave the jerky for another type of animal. I=20
        remain......</FONT><FONT size=3D-1></FONT>=20
        <P><FONT size=3D-1>YMOS</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D-1>Capt.=20
    Lahti'</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bear jerky bug
Date: 29 Mar 1999 20:58:18 -0600

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Adam
Listen to that old Finn.  He is pretty smart.
Lanney Ratcliff
    -----Original Message-----
    From: landis <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 8:08 PM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bear jerky bug
   =20
   =20
    thanks for the info i was just wonderin what they did if =
anything.how about muskrat jerky?                                        =
             adam
        -----Original Message-----
        From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
        To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
        Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 4:38 PM
        Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bear jerky bug
       =20
       =20
         =20
        landis wrote:=20

             So what  did people do back in the day when there was no =
test for bear meat and they made jerky or dried the meat? take their =
chances? would they not have donefor fear of getting sick? I had the =
bear jerky and did not get sick. Maybe I have an iron gut. Maybe I'm =
just lucky!                                    adam=20
            Adam,=20

            I think you have been lucky! I suspect that they either =
caught a case and didn't know it or the bears back then didn't carry it =
cause they hadn't been exposed to the same garbage our modern bears are =
exposed to. It may have not been the practice to make jerky from bear =
meat anyway. In any case it's a matter of common sense safety in this =
day and age. We know that bears carry the trichinosis bug today just as =
pigs do and we don't take the chance. We don't make jerky out of pig =
meat either.=20

            You can drink from lakes and streams many times and not =
catch a case of Giardia but the one time you do catch it you will wish =
you had always treated your water in some way. The effects of such =
diseases are never pleasent and many times can be life threatening. Why =
take the chance with your health and the safety and well being of your =
family while you are flat sick and not working, etc. Not worth it at all =
in my book. Beef and such makes better jerky anyway and it is safe. Take =
your bear meat and treat it like pork, make ham and bacon and chops and =
sausage, etc. Leave the jerky for another type of animal. I remain...... =


            YMOS=20
            Capt. Lahti'


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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML =
PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html =
4.0 transitional//en">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000>Adam</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000></FONT>Listen to that old Finn.  He is =
pretty=20
smart.</DIV>
<DIV>Lanney Ratcliff</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>landis <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B=
>To:=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Monday, March 29, 1999 8:08 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: =
MtMan-List: bear=20
    jerky bug<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>thanks for the info i was just =
wonderin what=20
    they did if anything.how about muskrat=20
    =
jerky?           &=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp;           &nb=
sp;           &nbs=
p;    =20
    adam</FONT></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original=20
        Message-----</B><BR><B>From: </B>Roger Lahti <<A=20
        =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>To: =
</B><A=20
        =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
        <<A=20
        =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
        </B>Monday, March 29, 1999 4:38 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: =
MtMan-List:=20
        bear jerky bug<BR><BR></DIV></FONT> =20
        <P>landis wrote:=20
        <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE =3D CITE> <FONT size=3D-1>So what  =
did people=20
            do back in the day when there was no test for bear meat and =
they=20
            made jerky or dried the meat? take their chances? would they =
not=20
            have done</FONT><FONT size=3D-1>for fear of getting sick? I =
had the=20
            bear jerky and did not get sick. Maybe I have an iron gut. =
Maybe I'm=20
            just=20
            =
lucky!           &=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp;           =20
            adam</FONT><FONT size=3D-1></FONT>=20
            <P><FONT size=3D-1>Adam,</FONT><FONT size=3D-1></FONT>=20
            <P><FONT size=3D-1>I think you have been lucky! I suspect =
that they=20
            either caught a case and didn't know it or the bears back =
then=20
            didn't carry it cause they hadn't been exposed to the same =
garbage=20
            our modern bears are exposed to. It may have not been the =
practice=20
            to make jerky from bear meat anyway. In any case it's a =
matter of=20
            common sense safety in this day and age. We know that bears =
carry=20
            the trichinosis bug today just as pigs do and we don't take =
the=20
            chance. We don't make jerky out of pig meat =
either.</FONT><FONT=20
            size=3D-1></FONT>=20
            <P><FONT size=3D-1>You can drink from lakes and streams many =
times and=20
            not catch a case of Giardia but the one time you do catch it =
you=20
            will wish you had always treated your water in some way. The =
effects=20
            of such diseases are never pleasent and many times can be =
life=20
            threatening. Why take the chance with your health and the =
safety and=20
            well being of your family while you are flat sick and not =
working,=20
            etc. Not worth it at all in my book. Beef and such makes =
better=20
            jerky anyway and it is safe. Take your bear meat and treat =
it like=20
            pork, make ham and bacon and chops and sausage, etc. Leave =
the jerky=20
            for another type of animal. I remain......</FONT><FONT=20
            size=3D-1></FONT>=20
            <P><FONT size=3D-1>YMOS</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D-1>Capt.=20
            =
Lahti'</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_007B_01BE7A26.DF647040--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bear jerky bug
Date: 29 Mar 1999 22:14:41 EST

In a message dated 3/29/99 5:22:40 PM Mountain Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< I had the bear jerky and did not get sick. Maybe I have an iron gut. Maybe
I'm just lucky! >>

Maybe you haven't shown the symptoms yet. It can take time. It is usually not
curable. A disease caused by eating undercooked meat, usually pork, that
contains trichinae, which develop as adults in the intestines and as larvae in
the muscles, causing intestinal disorders, fever, nausea, muscular pain, and
edema of the face.

It is nothing to mess with. Good Luck.

Ghosting Wolf



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cranberries.
Date: 29 Mar 1999 22:36:14 EST

Kia, You can juice them for drinking or use the juice for dying fabrics. Also,
you can dry them and use them like raisins or currants in rice dishes or in
baked goods, or mix them with nuts 'n stuff in a 'trail mix'.  As for growing
seasons, propagation, etc, hopefully somebody else on the list will be able to
help.    YHS, Barney Fife



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Don Taylor <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On horse "wild" horse training.
Date: 29 Mar 1999 21:16:10 -0700

I'am no expert, but I had an occassion to work with some mustangs out of
the BLM when I lived down to Yuma Az. a while back. Got together with a old
man that had worked at breakin horses for the army prior to ww2. He had
showed how they did it if he had been in a hurry aqnd he showed me how to
do it if he had the time to spend on them. It all tended to be hard on the
horse. I'am no horse trainer. I know some that are. Read Monte's book and
talk to as many trainers as you can find and study everything you can on
horses and training, then look to getting a mustang. I'll be lookin to
doing it again in a few months and Iam still reading and talkin.

At 07:25 PM 3/28/99 -0600, northwoods wrote:
>>>>Hello the camp,
>
>Since the mode of travel, in those better days, was done mostly on horse
>back and there seems to be little information regarding the capturing,
>gentling and training of wild horses, I am wondering if anyone on the list
>has had experience in training a wild horse; more specifically one of the
>BLM wild mustang breeds.  I've got a bee in my bonnet and want to take the
>"bit", as it were, and "run with it."  There can't be too many ways left to
>replicate the horse culture of the plains as it related to the mountain men
>and this is something I'm seriously considering.
>
>So, if any of you'll have trained one of these wild critters I'd sure like
>to pick your brain(s).
>
>Yr Mst Humbl.......
>John Funk<<<
>
>This reminds me of a time several years back I was driving to work,( I am in
>the logging business and this particular job was a ways back in the bush, on
>federal land, not near any habitations of any kind) anyway it was a November
>morning with about 2" of fresh snowcover and I was the first one in, and I
>came across the strangest set of tracks I have ever seen , so I pulled my
>truck over and followed it into the woods a ways to see what it was. They
>where moose sized and it looled like it was dragging something which
>partially obliterated the tracks and made them hard to read. Really had me
>scratchin my head there for a while. Well, to make a long story short, one
>of the locals who lived a dozen or so miles off had decided he needed to get
>a couple mustangs, which he did, then brought em' home and put em'  in his
>pasture figuring his regular fence would be adequate, except he left a lead
>on them to make them easier to catch, boy was that a bad idea since they
>where gone in no time. I know he caught one several months later, don't know
>if he ever got the other one. I would spot one occasionally on my way in and
>out of work, couldn't get close to it though, it was really nervous.
>
>If your familiar with breaking horses and have worked with horses in general
>than a mustang isn't an impossible thing to get working for you. Your just
>trying to teach an old dog new tricks, except this dog can do worse than
>bite you if it has a mind to.
>the last book I read on the subject was by Monty Roberts called "The Man Who
>Listens to Horses" I think that is the title. The movie "The Horse
>Whisperer" was based on this guys life. Really enjoyed this book. He breaks
>a mustang IN THE WILD without ever having restrained the horse whatsoever.
>Read the book and you'll find out how.
>
>From the northwoods,
>
>Tony Clark
>
>
>
Don Taylor

"Life's tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bear jerky bug
Date: 29 Mar 1999 22:34:50 -0600

I doubt every bear is infected.

John...



At 10:14 PM 3/29/99 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 3/29/99 5:22:40 PM Mountain Standard Time,
>[e-mail] writes:
>
><< I had the bear jerky and did not get sick. Maybe I have an iron gut. Maybe
>I'm just lucky! >>
>
>Maybe you haven't shown the symptoms yet. It can take time. It is usually not
>curable. A disease caused by eating undercooked meat, usually pork, that
>contains trichinae, which develop as adults in the intestines and as
larvae in
>the muscles, causing intestinal disorders, fever, nausea, muscular pain, and
>edema of the face.
>
>It is nothing to mess with. Good Luck.
>
>Ghosting Wolf
>
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Pat Laughlin" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cranberries.
Date: 29 Mar 1999 20:35:20 -0800

http://www.oceanspray.com/cran_citrus/funfacts.htm

This site and it's links can give you lots of info on cranberries.  Enjoy.
Pat

-----Original Message-----



>Kia, You can juice them for drinking or use the juice for dying fabrics.
Also,
>you can dry them and use them like raisins or currants in rice dishes or in
>baked goods, or mix them with nuts 'n stuff in a 'trail mix'.  As for
growing
>seasons, propagation, etc, hopefully somebody else on the list will be able
to
>help.    YHS, Barney Fife
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Newbe needs advice
Date: 29 Mar 1999 21:10:16 -0800


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Bob Keefe wrote:

>  Hello to all of the list         I am just trying to put together
> needs for my first season of rendezvous. I have run across an add in
> the local classifieds for a civil war officers wall tent and fly. How
> deferent would this be to fur trade?  How much work would it be to
> convert to period. I thank you for any and all help
>
> Bob,
>
> All the experts on this subject must be asleep or drunk today/tonight
> so I will take a stab at your questions.
> It is my understanding that wall tents really are not correct for the
> Rendezvous era. I think you would find it too much work to get a
> satisfactory shelter out of a wall tent by trying to modify it. It
> would have to be made into a wedge tent and that may not be possible.
>
> Depending on what type of Rendezvous you want to use it at, many of
> the big and little more open Rendezvous will not make much of a to-do
> over wall tents as long as they are white and not olive drab. The more
> historiclly oriented eastern incampments will require that you use
> more period correct shelters and the wall tent would probably not be
> allowed.
>
> Perhaps the real question should be, Where do you want to use this
> tent at? Let me know. I remain.....
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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<p>Bob Keefe wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE> <font color="#000000"><font size=-1>Hello to
all of the list</font></font> <font color="#000000"><font size=-1>
I am just trying to put together needs for my first season of rendezvous.
I have run across an add in the local classifieds for a civil war officers
wall tent and fly. How deferent would this be to fur trade?  How much
work would it be to convert to period. I thank you for any and all help</font></font><font color="#000000"><font size=-1></font></font>
<p><font color="#000000"><font size=-1>Bob,</font></font><font color="#000000"><font size=-1></font></font>
<p><font color="#000000"><font size=-1>All the experts on this subject
must be asleep or drunk today/tonight so I will take a stab at your questions.</font></font>
<br><font color="#000000"><font size=-1>It is my understanding that wall
tents really are not correct for the Rendezvous era. I think you would
find it too much work to get a satisfactory shelter out of a wall tent
by trying to modify it. It would have to be made into a wedge tent and
that may not be possible.</font></font><font color="#000000"><font size=-1></font></font>
<p><font color="#000000"><font size=-1>Depending on what type of Rendezvous
you want to use it at, many of the big and little more open Rendezvous
will not make much of a to-do over wall tents as long as they are white
and not olive drab. The more historiclly oriented eastern incampments will
require that you use more period correct shelters and the wall tent would
probably not be allowed.</font></font><font color="#000000"><font size=-1></font></font>
<p><font color="#000000"><font size=-1>Perhaps the real question should
be, Where do you want to use this tent at? Let me know. I remain.....</font></font><font color="#000000"><font size=-1></font></font>
<p><font color="#000000"><font size=-1>YMOS</font></font>
<br><font color="#000000"><font size=-1>Capt. Lahti'</font></font>
<br><font color="#000000"><font size=-1></font></font>
<br><font color="#000000"><font size=-1></font></font>
<br><font color="#000000"><font size=-1></font></font>
<br><font color="#000000"><font size=-1></font></font>
<br><font color="#000000"><font size=-1></font></font>
<br><font color="#000000"><font size=-1></font></font>
<br><font color="#000000"><font size=-1></font></font>
<br><font color="#000000"><font size=-1></font></font>
<br><font color="#000000"><font size=-1></font></font>
<br><font color="#000000"><font size=-1></font></font>
<blockquote
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"> </blockquote>
</blockquote>

</body>
</html>

--------------F37C9E14F070D18818B2C43C--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bear jerky bug
Date: 30 Mar 1999 00:05:27 EST

In a message dated 3/29/99 9:36:01 PM Mountain Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< I doubt every bear is infected.  >>
You are right. In some areas a very high % may be infected. The older a bear
the highter the probability of it being infected. Even bears back in the
"wilderness" can have it. Bears have a tremendous home range and can carry it
anywhere. I'll get the statistics on trichinosis from the office tomorrow. We
did this about a year ago and info should be in the archives. Here in Montana
trichinosis testing is free. Either way it is always recommended to cook bear
and mountain lion meat well before eating.

Ghosting Wolf



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Newbe needs advice
Date: 30 Mar 1999 00:21:00 EST

contact tentsmiths <A HREF="http://www.tentsmiths.com/">Tentsmiths Home Page
</A> or Panther Primitives
<A HREF="http://www.catalogcity.com/ViewCover.cfm?VID=150674">Panther
Primitives</A>   they can provide you with all the info you could need about
historical accuracy, etc etc.   Hope this helps, YHs, Barney Fife



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john c. funk,jr" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On horse "wild" horse training.
Date: 29 Mar 1999 22:36:44 -0800

Don Taylor,
Many thanks for your input.  I'm doing just as you suggest.  Tomorrow I'm
going to check Amazon for Monty's books and possibly tapes on training.
Good luck in your efforts.

John Funk
-----Original Message-----
[e-mail] <[e-mail]>


>I'am no expert, but I had an occassion to work with some mustangs out of
>the BLM when I lived down to Yuma Az. a while back. Got together with a old
>man that had worked at breakin horses for the army prior to ww2. He had
>showed how they did it if he had been in a hurry aqnd he showed me how to
>do it if he had the time to spend on them. It all tended to be hard on the
>horse. I'am no horse trainer. I know some that are. Read Monte's book and
>talk to as many trainers as you can find and study everything you can on
>horses and training, then look to getting a mustang. I'll be lookin to
>doing it again in a few months and Iam still reading and talkin.
>
>At 07:25 PM 3/28/99 -0600, northwoods wrote:
>>>>>Hello the camp,
>>
>>Since the mode of travel, in those better days, was done mostly on horse
>>back and there seems to be little information regarding the capturing,
>>gentling and training of wild horses, I am wondering if anyone on the list
>>has had experience in training a wild horse; more specifically one of the
>>BLM wild mustang breeds.  I've got a bee in my bonnet and want to take the
>>"bit", as it were, and "run with it."  There can't be too many ways left
to
>>replicate the horse culture of the plains as it related to the mountain
men
>>and this is something I'm seriously considering.
>>
>>So, if any of you'll have trained one of these wild critters I'd sure like
>>to pick your brain(s).
>>
>>Yr Mst Humbl.......
>>John Funk<<<
>>
>>This reminds me of a time several years back I was driving to work,( I am
in
>>the logging business and this particular job was a ways back in the bush,
on
>>federal land, not near any habitations of any kind) anyway it was a
November
>>morning with about 2" of fresh snowcover and I was the first one in, and I
>>came across the strangest set of tracks I have ever seen , so I pulled my
>>truck over and followed it into the woods a ways to see what it was. They
>>where moose sized and it looled like it was dragging something which
>>partially obliterated the tracks and made them hard to read. Really had me
>>scratchin my head there for a while. Well, to make a long story short, one
>>of the locals who lived a dozen or so miles off had decided he needed to
get
>>a couple mustangs, which he did, then brought em' home and put em'  in his
>>pasture figuring his regular fence would be adequate, except he left a
lead
>>on them to make them easier to catch, boy was that a bad idea since they
>>where gone in no time. I know he caught one several months later, don't
know
>>if he ever got the other one. I would spot one occasionally on my way in
and
>>out of work, couldn't get close to it though, it was really nervous.
>>
>>If your familiar with breaking horses and have worked with horses in
general
>>than a mustang isn't an impossible thing to get working for you. Your just
>>trying to teach an old dog new tricks, except this dog can do worse than
>>bite you if it has a mind to.
>>the last book I read on the subject was by Monty Roberts called "The Man
Who
>>Listens to Horses" I think that is the title. The movie "The Horse
>>Whisperer" was based on this guys life. Really enjoyed this book. He
breaks
>>a mustang IN THE WILD without ever having restrained the horse whatsoever.
>>Read the book and you'll find out how.
>>
>>From the northwoods,
>>
>>Tony Clark
>>
>>
>>
>Don Taylor
>
>"Life's tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid"
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David A Miller <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: History Channel Documentary
Date: 30 Mar 1999 07:08:15 -0700

Friends,

I just saw a copy of the film that was on the History channel last week.
Overall, I thought it was entertaining, especially if you didn't know
better.
    I agree with much of what has been said in the way of criticisms i.e..
Clean
Sunday go-to-meeting buckskins, bogus trapping scenes, Thompson Center
rifles
etc. And what was with the Coyote hat? As though that was by any remote
stretch of the imagination common headgear for trappers. Plains hardsole
moccasins? Maybe during the reservation period. A pierced candle lantern
in a
trappers camp? Documentation...where's the documentation? On the issue of
trade silver, I don't know of any references to much of it being imported
from
Germany. Why would it have been when there were dozens of expert French
and
English craftsmen right there in the colonies? And that sort of trade
silver
had largely passed out of vogue by the hey day of the Rocky Mountain
Trapper.
OK, perhaps some might have been found on a Shawnee or Delaware trapper
who
had found his way to the Rockies.
"German Silver" is another name for Nickel Silver which has no actual
silver
in it. And it doesn't mean it necessarily came from Germany.
       The film certainly could have been much worse and I believe those
reenactors involved probably did their best to make it right, but in the
end
Hollywood wanted a film for a certain price, and that's what they got.
Accuracy be damned!

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: re: MtMan-List: On horse "wild" horse training.
Date: 30 Mar 1999 08:57:29 -0700

From David Thompson's _Narrative_, p. 275, a description of how they caught
& broke wild horses in the western slopes of the Rockies c. 1808:

"We now agreed to try and run them [wild horses] down. For this purpose we
took two long-winded horses and started a herd of five. They soon left us,
but as these hills are covered with short grass, with very little wood, we
easily kept them in sight. It was a wild steeple-chase, down hills and up
others. After a chase of about four hours they brought us to near the place
we started them. Here we left them frightened, tired, and looking wildly
about them. The next day we took swift horses, and instead of following them
quietly, we dashed at them full speed with a hunting holloa, forcing them to
their utmost speed; the consequence was, two of them fell dead, a fine iron
gray stood still; we alighted and tied his forefeet together and there left
him. Following, we came to another horse, tied his feet and left him, we
returned to the first horse. I passed my hand over his nostrils, the smell
of which was so disagreeable that his nostrils and the skin of his head
became contorted, yet when tame, the doing of this appeared agreeable. The
next day we went for them on two steady horses, with strong lines, which we
tied round his neck, put a bit in his mouth with a short bridle through
which the lines passed, untied his feet, brought him to the house, where he
was broken to the bit and to the saddle. They [wild horses] lose all their
fat and become lean, and it takes about full two months to recover them to a
good condition. When in this last state they are made use of to hunt and
ride down wild horses, for strange to say, a horse with a good rider will
always overtake a horse without a rider, wild or tame."

As for modern feral horses, five years ago there was a large (~50, IIRC)
herd of wild horses at Canadian Forces Base Suffield here in southern
Alberta. The army rounded them up and sold them (at first they wanted to
slaughter them, but the outcry was too great). The folks who adopted them
were all quite pleased with the horses, and they have established some sort
of club for the promotion of the "Suffield Ponies". For all I know, they may
have a web site!

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bear jerky bug
Date: 30 Mar 1999 08:47:08 -0800


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Ratcliff wrote:

>  AdamListen to that old Finn.  He is pretty smart.Lanney Ratcliff
>
>      -----Original Message-----
>      From: landis <[e-mail]>
>      To: [e-mail]
>      <[e-mail]>
>      Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 8:08 PM
>      Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bear jerky bug
>       thanks for the info i was just wonderin what they did if
>      anything.how about muskrat
>      jerky?
>      adam
>
>      Adam,
>
>      I don't know about muskrat but since it is not "omniverous"
>      (a critter that will eat anything that will hold still long
>      enough, like Lanney and me) it probably would be safe to
>      jerk it. I still think I would only do it in a servival mode
>      though, just to be safe. As you can deduce, the animals that
>      you have to be careful of are the ones that will scavenge on
>      anything edible. Strict plant eaters are probably not a
>      sorce of infection. Stick to beef, buffalo, deer, elk,
>      moose, turkey, etc.  Thanks Lanney. I remain......
>

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>
>
>
>
>
>          >
>

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<p>Ratcliff wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE> <font color="#000000">Adam</font>Listen to
that old Finn.  He is pretty smart.Lanney Ratcliff
<blockquote
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><b><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>-----Original
Message-----</font></font></b>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1><b>From: </b>landis <<a href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a>
<<a href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1><b>Date: </b>Monday, March 29, 1999
8:08 PM</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1><b>Subject: </b>Re: MtMan-List: bear
jerky bug</font></font>
<br> <font color="#000000"><font size=-1>thanks for the info i was
just wonderin what they did if anything.how about muskrat jerky?
adam</font></font>
<p><font color="#000000"><font size=-1>Adam,</font></font>
<p><font color="#000000"><font size=-1>I don't know about muskrat but since
it is not "omniverous" (a critter that will eat anything that will hold
still long enough, like Lanney and me) it probably would be safe to jerk
it. I still think I would only do it in a servival mode though, just to
be safe. As you can deduce, the animals that you have to be careful of
are the ones that will scavenge on <u>anything </u>edible. Strict plant
eaters are probably not a sorce of infection. Stick to beef, buffalo, deer,
elk, moose, turkey, etc.  Thanks Lanney. I remain......</font></font></blockquote>
</blockquote>

<p><br>YMOS
<br>Capt. Lahti'
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
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<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
    style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<blockquote TYPE = CITE><font size=-1></font> </blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: History Channel Documentary
Date: 30 Mar 1999 12:16:34 -0500 (EST)

I think I speak for alot of people that although there were mistakes overall
it was very good.  I have only been rendezvousing and buckskinning for about
a year, still trying to get everything together and it was nice to see alot
of the items and compare notes.
I think that the nit pickers are forgetting one thing, it was a very
interesting movie based on a growing way of life or hobby as some would call
it.  Rendezvousing and buckskinning is getting very popular because it's
alot of fun and it gets you back to the basics.  Maybe this show opened up
some eyes and there will be some more greenhorns out there getting involved,
so there were a few mistakes.
I did pick up on the trapping and gun mistakes they were kind of obvious.
The clothing always seem to give me a bit of a problem.  As I understand
that the clothing worn by mountain men varied, alot.  Not all wore buckskins
and when they were worn they were not all that pretty.  Just take a look at
my longhunter shirt after a day of shooting, talk about dirty if I had to
live in it boy the mosquitoes probably would not come near me.
I do remember when they talked about the hawken rifle as being the fav. of
the mountain man.  I did not think the hawken came out until after 1835
towards the end of the fur trade era.
Since I own a lyman plains rifle and it is the only rifle I have right now I
figure that my persona needs to be towards the end of the fur trade era.
But to me it really does not matter because I make all of my gear,
everything except the gun and that will be next.

Well just my two cents.

Frank V. Rago




At 07:08 AM 3/30/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Friends,
>
>I just saw a copy of the film that was on the History channel last week.
>Overall, I thought it was entertaining, especially if you didn't know
>better.
>    I agree with much of what has been said in the way of criticisms i.e..
>Clean
>Sunday go-to-meeting buckskins, bogus trapping scenes, Thompson Center
>rifles
>etc. And what was with the Coyote hat? As though that was by any remote
>stretch of the imagination common headgear for trappers. Plains hardsole
>moccasins? Maybe during the reservation period. A pierced candle lantern
>in a
>trappers camp? Documentation...where's the documentation? On the issue of
>trade silver, I don't know of any references to much of it being imported
>from
>Germany. Why would it have been when there were dozens of expert French
>and
>English craftsmen right there in the colonies? And that sort of trade
>silver
>had largely passed out of vogue by the hey day of the Rocky Mountain
>Trapper.
>OK, perhaps some might have been found on a Shawnee or Delaware trapper
>who
>had found his way to the Rockies.
>"German Silver" is another name for Nickel Silver which has no actual
>silver
>in it. And it doesn't mean it necessarily came from Germany.
>       The film certainly could have been much worse and I believe those
>reenactors involved probably did their best to make it right, but in the
>end
>Hollywood wanted a film for a certain price, and that's what they got.
>Accuracy be damned!
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john c. funk,jr" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On horse "wild" horse training.
Date: 30 Mar 1999 09:50:06 -0800

Angela,
Great piece of history.  Many thanks for transcribing it.  Wish it were as
easy and abbreviated as David Thompkins makes it sound.  Will look for the
Suffield information.

John Funk
-----Original Message-----


>>From David Thompson's _Narrative_, p. 275, a description of how they
caught
>& broke wild horses in the western slopes of the Rockies c. 1808:
>
>"We now agreed to try and run them [wild horses] down. For this purpose we
>took two long-winded horses and started a herd of five. They soon left us,
>but as these hills are covered with short grass, with very little wood, we
>easily kept them in sight. It was a wild steeple-chase, down hills and up
>others. After a chase of about four hours they brought us to near the place
>we started them. Here we left them frightened, tired, and looking wildly
>about them. The next day we took swift horses, and instead of following
them
>quietly, we dashed at them full speed with a hunting holloa, forcing them
to
>their utmost speed; the consequence was, two of them fell dead, a fine iron
>gray stood still; we alighted and tied his forefeet together and there left
>him. Following, we came to another horse, tied his feet and left him, we
>returned to the first horse. I passed my hand over his nostrils, the smell
>of which was so disagreeable that his nostrils and the skin of his head
>became contorted, yet when tame, the doing of this appeared agreeable. The
>next day we went for them on two steady horses, with strong lines, which we
>tied round his neck, put a bit in his mouth with a short bridle through
>which the lines passed, untied his feet, brought him to the house, where he
>was broken to the bit and to the saddle. They [wild horses] lose all their
>fat and become lean, and it takes about full two months to recover them to
a
>good condition. When in this last state they are made use of to hunt and
>ride down wild horses, for strange to say, a horse with a good rider will
>always overtake a horse without a rider, wild or tame."
>
>As for modern feral horses, five years ago there was a large (~50, IIRC)
>herd of wild horses at Canadian Forces Base Suffield here in southern
>Alberta. The army rounded them up and sold them (at first they wanted to
>slaughter them, but the outcry was too great). The folks who adopted them
>were all quite pleased with the horses, and they have established some sort
>of club for the promotion of the "Suffield Ponies". For all I know, they
may
>have a web site!
>
>Your humble & obedient servant,
>Angela Gottfred
>[e-mail]
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: terry l landis <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: bear jerky
Date: 30 Mar 1999 15:50:51 -0800

ok here's the scoop on the jerk.
1. yes bears get the bug trich a whatever it is
2. i have read and please let me know if i'm wrong  at 200 deg f. it dies
3. if you check your meat with a meat thremomater in your smoker it does
get to that temp.
if safe handleing procedures are followed you will get great jerk.

ok, open target here come and get me!
YMHS,
  Terry (muskrat) Landis

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cranberries.
Date: 30 Mar 1999 19:07:56 -0600

Dave,I could be all screwed up(usually am!),but the first question that came
to mind was,does river willow grow in New Zealand?
But thanks for the post,here in Ouisconsin we have them and I'll try this
this year.
   >Gather river willow saplings whenever the sap is running.  Early
   >spring is best.  Cut them into small pieces and crush them in a
   >washtub.  Then cover with water and leach.  You will get a soup.
   >Use this as your rooting medium. Willow is a "magic" growth
Jeff Powers,A mind like a steel trap:Rusty and illegal in 37 states!

"They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin 1698

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:  river willow in NZ?
Date: 30 Mar 1999 20:50:58 -0600

Young dogwood saplings have a very similar composition to willow.  You ca=
n
chew
the inner bark of both to ease a headache or put a little in a glue pot t=
o
prevent souring.

Most any willow should work -- though few have the rich red outer bark of=
 the
river willow of the Rocky mountains.  Makes pretty good stakes as well.  =
Stout
spear hafts when cured.

John...



At 07:07 PM 3/30/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Dave,I could be all screwed up(usually am!),but the first question that =
came
>to mind was,does river willow grow in New Zealand?
>But thanks for the post,here in Ouisconsin we have them and I'll try thi=
s
>this year.
>=A0=A0 >Gather river willow saplings whenever the sap is running.=A0 Ear=
ly
>=A0=A0 >spring is best.=A0 Cut them into small pieces and crush them in =
a
>=A0=A0 >washtub.=A0 Then cover with water and leach.=A0 You will get a s=
oup.
>=A0=A0 >Use this as your rooting medium. Willow is a "magic" growth
>Jeff Powers,A mind like a steel trap:Rusty and illegal in 37 states!
>
>"They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin 1698
>
>Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Bayonetting a bear?
Date: 31 Mar 1999 08:41:27 EST

I just ran across the following passage on page 105 of "This Reckless Breed of
Men" by Robert Glass Cleland (1950 Borzoi Books). It is regarding Jedediah S.
Smith in 1827:

"    As Smith mildly remarked, the charging bear made "no pleasant noise"; and
since his gun was empty, Jed dived headlong into a stream that ran beside the
thicket. The bear knocked the next man down and rushed on to attack a hunter
named La Point, who had a bayonet fixed to his rifle. La Point used his novel
weapon so effectively that the bear ran off, badly wounded, and took refuge in
a near-by clump of brush."

OK, I have quite a few questions on this, the first being did this really
happen? (The name La Point for the man using a bayonet makes me wonder)

If it did, what rifle could he have used? I'd hazard a guess it had to
military, as I cannot picture someone having a gunsmith fit his Hawkins out
for one. And the plug bayonets I'm aware of were for the .75 cal Brown Bess.

Now that I think of it, if I were hunting a Grizz with a muzzle loader a
bayonet might not be too bad an idea....

Thanks,
Jim




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bayonetting a bear?
Date: 31 Mar 1999 08:05:47 -0800

Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly had an article by Charley many years ago that referred to many of the guns in the Fur Trade as being military, so your guess to being military is probably close to being correct. There were many "contract" rifles that used a bayonet attachment, if you had such a weapon and had the bayonet, why not use it.

Buck
____________________________________
On Wed, 31 March 1999, [e-mail] wrote:

> The bear knocked the next man down and rushed on to attack a hunter named
> La Point, who had a bayonet fixed to his rifle. La Point used his novel
> weapon so effectively that the bear ran off,............
>
> If it did, what rifle could he have used? I'd hazard a guess it had to
> military, ............


Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bayonetting a bear?
Date: 31 Mar 1999 08:05:47 -0800

Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly had an article by Charley many years ago that referred to many of the guns in the Fur Trade as being military, so your guess to being military is probably close to being correct. There were many "contract" rifles that used a bayonet attachment, if you had such a weapon and had the bayonet, why not use it.

Buck
____________________________________
On Wed, 31 March 1999, [e-mail] wrote:

> The bear knocked the next man down and rushed on to attack a hunter named
> La Point, who had a bayonet fixed to his rifle. La Point used his novel
> weapon so effectively that the bear ran off,............
>
> If it did, what rifle could he have used? I'd hazard a guess it had to
> military, ............


Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bayonetting a bear?
Date: 31 Mar 1999 12:42:43 EST

During the mid 1800's, there was a group of men who hunted Griz in the cane
brakes with hounds, and then would finish with knives that were about a couple
feet long (if memory serves).  It was not a stop gap: it was the preferred
tool, for these men.   There was an article in Blade Magazine 10 years ago;
and several books on hounds and hunters mention it.
Kinda like bayonets w/o the gun.  Maybe the the Arkansas Toothpick really was
a toothpick-  for Griz.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Food Safe Oil
Date: 31 Mar 1999 17:39:51 EST

Hey there John Kramer:

Can you cast any light on what a good food safe oil for oiling wooden bowls
might be?

Todd Glover



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Food Safe Oil
Date: 31 Mar 1999 18:29:20 -0500

I asked my wife, and she tells me walnut oil, apricot kernel oil, sunflower
oil, etc...  She is an herbalist and knows much about this as she uses the
walnut oil on our wooden bowls.

Addison Miller

-----Original Message-----


>Hey there John Kramer:
>
>Can you cast any light on what a good food safe oil for oiling wooden bowls
>might be?
>
>Todd Glover
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Food Safe Oil
Date: 31 Mar 1999 19:17:18 EST

...don't forget Olive Oil. Been used for thousands of years, works great,
brings out the grain and adds a wonderful luster to the wood.     YHS, Barney
Fife



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Food Safe Oil
Date: 31 Mar 1999 17:23:21 -0800

Buck at Clark & Sons Mercantile has Haines walnut oil @ $ 3.35 and Haines canola oil @ $ 2.15 both in 12.7 oz. bottles, just got some for same purpose several weeks ago.

Powderhawk
____________________________

On Wed, 31 March 1999, [e-mail] wrote:

>
> ...don't forget Olive Oil. Been used for thousands of years, works great,
> brings out the grain and adds a wonderful luster to the wood.     YHS, Barney
> Fife
>


Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Food Safe Oil
Date: 31 Mar 1999 17:23:21 -0800

Buck at Clark & Sons Mercantile has Haines walnut oil @ $ 3.35 and Haines canola oil @ $ 2.15 both in 12.7 oz. bottles, just got some for same purpose several weeks ago.

Powderhawk
____________________________

On Wed, 31 March 1999, [e-mail] wrote:

>
> ...don't forget Olive Oil. Been used for thousands of years, works great,
> brings out the grain and adds a wonderful luster to the wood.     YHS, Barney
> Fife
>


Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Roy Parker)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Food Safe Oil
Date: 01 Apr 1999 01:48:12 GMT

I do a bit of woodworking on the side.  Two of the most highly
recommended oils on rec.woodturning are mineral oil and walnut oil.
Both protect the wood, and neither go rancid like some of the
vegetable oils can.  I have no experience with walnut oil, but
corn/safflour oil will go rancid in dutch ovens.  I've used mineral
oil on many wooden bowls with no problem.

I've bought some walnut oil to try on the next bowls I turn, so we'll
see how it does.


On Wed, 31 Mar 1999 17:39:51 EST, you wrote:

>Hey there John Kramer:
>
>Can you cast any light on what a good food safe oil for oiling wooden =
bowls
>might be?
>
>Todd Glover
>

Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including =
"BS".
1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Food Safe Oil
Date: 31 Mar 1999 22:17:37 -0500

If local shops don't have Walnut Oil, try http://meadowsweet.com   Its an
online store that has great herbal stuff and accessories, and carries the
walnut oil, apricot kernel oil, etc...

Addison Miller

-----Original Message-----


>I do a bit of woodworking on the side.  Two of the most highly
>recommended oils on rec.woodturning are mineral oil and walnut oil.
>Both protect the wood, and neither go rancid like some of the
>vegetable oils can.  I have no experience with walnut oil, but
>corn/safflour oil will go rancid in dutch ovens.  I've used mineral
>oil on many wooden bowls with no problem.
>
>I've bought some walnut oil to try on the next bowls I turn, so we'll
>see how it does.
>
>
>On Wed, 31 Mar 1999 17:39:51 EST, you wrote:
>
>>Hey there John Kramer:
>>
>>Can you cast any light on what a good food safe oil for oiling wooden
bowls
>>might be?
>>
>>Todd Glover
>>
>
>Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including
"BS".
>1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: mtman list: wild horse training
Date: 31 Mar 1999 22:13:57 -0500 (EST)

don't rush anything that could come back to sting ye.  any big flaw in
training will show itself as a corresponding flaw in yer animal -
especially when the animal is under stress (jumping logs or crossing
water filled ditchs or passing fires).  Jes take her slow and easy like
Monty.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: bears & bayonets
Date: 31 Mar 1999 21:18:55 -0600

>
> >During the mid 1800's, there was a group of men who hunted Griz in the cane
> >brakes with hounds, and then would finish with knives that were about a couple
> >feet long (if memory serves).  It was not a stop gap: it was the preferred
> >tool, for these men.   There was an article in Blade Magazine 10 years ago;
> >and several books on hounds and hunters mention it.
> >Kinda like bayonets w/o the gun.  Maybe the the Arkansas Toothpick really was
> >a toothpick-  for Griz.

I saw that article, and understood that this type of bear hunting was popular in the
South Eastern US...not in grizz country.  I would not want to own  dogs that could
hold their own with a grizz. I'm just not man enough to handle dogs that big. ;-)  J.D.






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john c. funk,jr" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mtman list: wild horse training
Date: 31 Mar 1999 20:01:43 -0800

Monty,
Thanks for the input.  Slow and easy is my intent with all the love and
patients it will take.
Will keep the thread posted.

John Funk
-----Original Message-----


don't rush anything that could come back to sting ye.  any big flaw in
training will show itself as a corresponding flaw in yer animal -
especially when the animal is under stress (jumping logs or crossing
water filled ditchs or passing fires).  Jes take her slow and easy like
Monty.






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Terry VanDerLinden <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Food Safe oil
Date: 31 Mar 1999 22:51:33 -0500

Todd,
I am a high school wood shop teacher in NY state.  Just getting into
thebuckskinning thing.  But I do know woodworking.  The best food safe
oil I know is Danish oil finish.  Given several (6 or so ) coats of the
oil and letting it dry for 24 to 48 hours will work.  I have used it on
a baby craddle and othe r sensitive items,


Swiftarrow
--
Terry VanDerLinden
119 Webster Road
Spencerport, NY 14559

email: [e-mail]