ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/hist_text/archive/hist_text.199902

Internet Message Format | 1999-02-28 | 551KB

From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax
Date: 01 Feb 1999 06:37:46 -0600


-----Original Message-----

>Of course, lacing the tinder
>with an accelerate is cheating, plain and simple.

Right, rules must be specified.  But specifying that the tinder must
be period correct does not prevent the use of "accelerators".
In Noah Smithwick's "The Evolution of a State or Recollections of
Old Texas Days," he described how they used to rub gunpowder
into cloth for a fire starter.

BTW, Smithwick is a good read, and it is available on-line.
 http://www.erols.com/hardeman/lonestar/olbooks/smithwic/otd.htm

Iron Burner




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brain Tan
Date: 01 Feb 1999 08:21:18 -0700

If your hides are smelling bad, they are deteriorating. According to Dave
Christenson, this is not normal. You are allowing bateria to produce. If
you change your soak water every day, this should not happen. Once hide
begin to smell, you take the chance of blood poisoning occuring to
yourself. Soaking hides to loosen hair is done to disolve the glues in the
hide and cause hide swelling due to a raise in Ph. Yes the hides will brain
tan soft even if they smell bad, but why work with stinking hides? Braining
can remove some of the smell and smoking covers alot of it. Some folks add
a bit of soap to brains or wash brained hides in ivory soap to clean hide
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40
Date: 01 Feb 1999 08:50:18 -0700

Hey Barn! (always wanted to say that)

I live in Flagstaff. Why dont you let me know when you'll be coming. At the
very least we'll go for coffee. Williams ain't much to see unless you like
early 1900's trains (not much mtn man stuff, it was named for Williams in
1853 by the Corps of Topographical Engineers to honor the ol cuss. there's
no real evidence the ever spent time there. Meteor Crater is a neat big
hole, but if you have time, the Grand Canyon is only two hours round trip
out of your way. Get in touch.

Vic

Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin

AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party
"Aux aliments du pays!"

Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona
Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Don Neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtn Man School
Date: 01 Feb 1999 11:52:05 -0600

Seems like their use to be a school out west. This would be a good ideal
maybe to start one.  If not  would like to spent some time in the mtns.
Are there any trails or trips anyone could tell me about.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40
Date: 01 Feb 1999 18:56:57 -0600

Aw, Vic, offer to treat the man to a few pulls from your hot sauce =
bottle.  I know you desert rats do that because I have seen it with my =
own two eyes!!  Remember?
Lanney
-----Original Message-----


>Hey Barn! (always wanted to say that)
>
>I live in Flagstaff. Why dont you let me know when you'll be coming. At =
the
>very least we'll go for coffee. Williams ain't much to see unless you =
like
>early 1900's trains (not much mtn man stuff, it was named for Williams =
in
>1853 by the Corps of Topographical Engineers to honor the ol cuss. =
there's
>no real evidence the ever spent time there. Meteor Crater is a neat big
>hole, but if you have time, the Grand Canyon is only two hours round =
trip
>out of your way. Get in touch.
>
>Vic
>
>Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin
>
>AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party
>"Aux aliments du pays!"
>
>Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona
>Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40
Date: 01 Feb 1999 19:31:01 -0700

Yeah Lanny I remember... Had ta run outa rum, whisky and aguiardiente first
though! Well Barn, ol hoss, whats yer pleasure?

Vic

>Aw, Vic, offer to treat the man to a few pulls from your hot sauce bottle.
>I know you desert rats do that because I have seen it with my own two
>eyes!!  Remember?
>Lanney
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 9:40 AM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40
>
>
>>Hey Barn! (always wanted to say that)
>>
>>I live in Flagstaff. Why dont you let me know when you'll be coming. At the
>>very least we'll go for coffee. Williams ain't much to see unless you like
>>early 1900's trains (not much mtn man stuff, it was named for Williams in
>>1853 by the Corps of Topographical Engineers to honor the ol cuss. there's
>>no real evidence the ever spent time there. Meteor Crater is a neat big
>>hole, but if you have time, the Grand Canyon is only two hours round trip
>>out of your way. Get in touch.
>>
>>Vic
>>
>>Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin
>>
>>AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party
>>"Aux aliments du pays!"
>>
>>Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona
>>Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998
>>
>>
>>
>>


Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin

AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party
"Aux aliments du pays!"

Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona
Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: mtn.men, they never got lost, just mighty confused for a while
Date: 01 Feb 1999 20:51:14 -0600

My wife asked me yesterday,"Did the mountain men carry
compasses?".  I chuckled a little at the question and then told
her what I knew about the development and early use of the
compass,then told her some of the ways one is able to navigate
without a compass,but finally had to admit that I could'nt think
of a single reference to compasses in anything i have read about
mountain men or early western exploration.

Can anyone give me references to compasses or any tools
for navigation being used by mtn. men or early western explorers?

( I think I may have read something in the journals of Lewis & Clark,
but can't be certain.)

From the northwoods,

Tony Clark




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mtn.men, they never got lost, just mighty confused for a while
Date: 02 Feb 1999 09:10:39 -0800



northwoods wrote:

> Can anyone give me references to compasses or any tools
> for navigation being used by mtn. men or early western explorers?
>
> ( I think I may have read something in the journals of Lewis & Clark,
> but can't be certain.)

Tony,

YOur right when you remembered that L&C carried and used compasses. They
carried quit a few scientific instruments including barometers and
thermometers along with sextants. As to whether any Mt. Men carried
compasses, I can't think of any references to such a practice but that is
not to say it wasn't done. It is probably safer to say that most if not
all of the early explorers like Bonneville and Pike, etc. also carried
compasses. In the east, it would be a safe guess that military
expeditions would have a compass along. It might not be something the
common man would carry though. IMHO, I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>
>
> >From the northwoods,
>
> Tony Clark






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mtn.men, they never got lost, just mighty confused for a while
Date: 02 Feb 1999 09:10:21 -0800



northwoods wrote:

> Can anyone give me references to compasses or any tools
> for navigation being used by mtn. men or early western explorers?
>
> ( I think I may have read something in the journals of Lewis & Clark,
> but can't be certain.)

Tony,

YOur right when you remembered that L&C carried and used compasses. They
caried quit a few scientific instruments including barrometers and
thermometers along with sextants. As to whether any Mt. Men carried
compasses, I can't think of any references to such a practice but that is
not to say it wasn't done. It is probably safer to say that most if not
all of the early explorers like Bonneville and Pike, etc. also carried
compasses. In the east, it would be a safe guess that military
expeditions would have a compass along. It might not be something the
common man would carry though. IMHO, I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>
>
> >From the northwoods,
>
> Tony Clark






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sickler, Louis L" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: mtn.men, they never got lost, just mighty confuse d for a while
Date: 02 Feb 1999 10:12:54 -0700

Tony,

Check out Dean's web page search. It turned up no less than 23 references,
including one for 6 pocket compasses listed in the 1836 Rocky Mtn Outfit
merchandise list. Could be that this is one of those items that's not
generally mentioned.

Lou

> ----------
> From:     northwoods
> Reply To:     [e-mail]
> Sent:     Monday, February 1, 1999 19:51
> To:     [e-mail]
> Subject:     MtMan-List: mtn.men, they never got lost, just mighty
> confused for a while
>
> My wife asked me yesterday,"Did the mountain men carry
> compasses?".  I chuckled a little at the question and then told
> her what I knew about the development and early use of the
> compass,then told her some of the ways one is able to navigate
> without a compass,but finally had to admit that I could'nt think
> of a single reference to compasses in anything i have read about
> mountain men or early western exploration.
>
> Can anyone give me references to compasses or any tools
> for navigation being used by mtn. men or early western explorers?
>
> ( I think I may have read something in the journals of Lewis & Clark,
> but can't be certain.)
>
> From the northwoods,
>
> Tony Clark
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Philip Huvler <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: JUTE/CHAR
Date: 02 Feb 1999 13:37:36 -0500 (EST)

[e-mail]
>> Subject: MtMan-List: JUTE
>> Date: Saturday, January 31, 1998 2:35 AM
>>
>> Roger,
>>   Thanks for the info on jute. I've been using the stuff for years, and
>did
>> not know it had been treated with a cleaning agent. All I knew was it
>would
>> burn like crazy. I will no longer use it. Yes I to have seen folks use
>> tinder that had to have been enhanced with something. There are lots of
>> ways to accomplish, but I won't get into  them here. [ no need in
>> encouraging such practices]  Even jute won't literally explode into
>flames
>> every single time. When I put on a fire starting contest, I always
>> specified using natural tinder such as cedar bark, grass, etc. When i can
>> get them dry enough, I like to provide pine needles for the contestants.
>I
>> think this gives all of us a better opportunity to learn to use what our
>> forefathers used which was whatever was at hand.
>>   A good tip on char, is to char the strings you pull off the fringe of a
>> new frock or the ones you pull off the edge of ticking patch material.
>They
>> work reall well and it goes back to not wasting anything. You will find
>it
>> catches a spark almost immediately and when you blow on it , it turns
>into
>> a solid glowing ember. Try it you'll like it.
>> Pendleton
>>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Philip Huvler <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: JUTE/CHAR
Date: 02 Feb 1999 13:37:40 -0500 (EST)

At 09:31 PM 1/31/99 -0600, you wrote:
>    I think maybe a lot of people must not even know if their jute is
>treated or not. Guess I just found out why this discussion group is so
>important!
>    As for char, try using 100% cotton cheese cloth.
>
>Dull Hawk
>
>----------
>> From: yellow rose/pendleton <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail]
>> Subject: MtMan-List: JUTE
>> Date: Saturday, January 31, 1998 2:35 AM
>>
>> Roger,
>>   Thanks for the info on jute. I've been using the stuff for years, and
>did
>> not know it had been treated with a cleaning agent. All I knew was it
>would
>> burn like crazy. I will no longer use it. Yes I to have seen folks use
>> tinder that had to have been enhanced with something. There are lots of
>> ways to accomplish, but I won't get into  them here. [ no need in
>> encouraging such practices]  Even jute won't literally explode into
>flames
>> every single time. When I put on a fire starting contest, I always
>> specified using natural tinder such as cedar bark, grass, etc. When i can
>> get them dry enough, I like to provide pine needles for the contestants.
>I
>> think this gives all of us a better opportunity to learn to use what our
>> forefathers used which was whatever was at hand.
>>   A good tip on char, is to char the strings you pull off the fringe of a
>> new frock or the ones you pull off the edge of ticking patch material.
>They
>> work reall well and it goes back to not wasting anything. You will find
>it
>> catches a spark almost immediately and when you blow on it , it turns
>into
>> a solid glowing ember. Try it you'll like it.
>> Pendleton

hello list
>> I use old baling twine only problem with that is alot of it has rodent
control on it so may not be to safe to inhale . of course I've met a few mtn
man who must have been using it for awhile:)
>                                          philip
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ron Chamberlain" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Wilderness Rifle Works
Date: 02 Feb 1999 12:39:14 -0700

Hello the list!

I'm looking at a couple of rifles by Wilderness Rifle Works. The Cumberland
which is styled after a Kent or Tenn rifle and the Mountianeer which is a
Southern Mt style.

My question is which, if either, would be more period for a trapper in the
Ft Hall area around the mid 1830's? They make another rifle styled after a
Leman, but it is only available in perc. and I want a flinter.

Any other rifles available in the $ 500 range? Most seem to be 7-800.

YMOS
Ron
AKA Lonewolf


Lewis Fork Free Trappers
<http://www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/trappers.html>
emails [e-mail]
         [e-mail]
ICQ #26140332



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: JUTE/CHAR
Date: 02 Feb 1999 15:34:56 -0800



Philip Huvler wrote:

> >>   A good tip on char, is to char the strings you pull off the fringe of a
> >> new frock or the ones you pull off the edge of ticking patch material.
> >They
> >> work reall well and it goes back to not wasting anything. You will find
> >it
> >> catches a spark almost immediately and when you blow on it , it turns
> >into
> >> a solid glowing ember. Try it you'll like it.
> >> Pendleton

Thanks Pendleton, I got some saved up and I'll give it a try. I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

> >>
> >
> >






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Wilderness Rifle Works
Date: 02 Feb 1999 18:36:00 -0700

Buy the percx and then change the lock if it will save you money.

DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants

Ron Chamberlain wrote:
>Hello the list!
>
>I'm looking at a couple of rifles by Wilderness Rifle Works. The
Cumberland
>which is styled after a Kent or Tenn rifle and the Mountianeer which is
a
>Southern Mt style.
>
>My question is which, if either, would be more period for a trapper in
the
>Ft Hall area around the mid 1830's? They make another rifle styled after
a
>Leman, but it is only available in perc. and I want a flinter.
>
>Any other rifles available in the $ 500 range? Most seem to be 7-800.
>
>YMOS
>Ron
>AKA Lonewolf
>
>
>Lewis Fork Free Trappers
><http://www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/trappers.html>
>emails [e-mail]
>         [e-mail]
>ICQ #26140332
>
>
>
>RFC822 header
>-----------------------------------
>
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wilderness Rifle Works
Date: 03 Feb 1999 01:22:28 -0500

Ron Chamberlain wrote:
>
> Hello the list!
>
> I'm looking at a couple of rifles by Wilderness Rifle Works. The Cumberland
> which is styled after a Kent or Tenn rifle and the Mountianeer which is a
> Southern Mt style.
>
> My question is which, if either, would be more period for a trapper in the
> Ft Hall area around the mid 1830's? They make another rifle styled after a
> Leman, but it is only available in perc. and I want a flinter.

No.....they also make the Leman copy as a flinter.  It has a different
model name...can't remember it off hand.  Thunder Ridge MZ carries all
of them.  The WRW Cumberland is a PA "poor boy," and would be correct
as would the So. Mtn. Rifle.  I have both of these, except that the
finish is mine.

> Any other rifles available in the $ 500 range? Most seem to be 7-800.

There AREN'T any other semi-custom hand-made rifles available in that
price range.

Fred

--
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #230
Date: 03 Feb 1999 10:29:22 EST

Has anyone heard of a trapper WILLIAM HENRY GANTT in Roaring Fork Valley in
Colorado ca. 1830's or 1840's?

Lynne Gantt



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: mtn.men, they never got lost, just mighty confuse d for a while
Date: 03 Feb 1999 09:36:56 -0700

Interesting question about compasses. My impression is that in the Canadian
fur trade, 1774-1821, compasses were present but not common, and probably
mostly used by "gentlemen", i.e. clerks, factors, and wintering partners
(who were usually the explorers, e.g. David Thompson, Alexander Mackenzie,
Simon Fraser, Peter Fidler).

Here's some quotes:
1760, Alexander Henry the Elder: "...the snow...prevented us, at times, from
discovering the land, and consequently (for compass we had none), from
pursuing, with certainty, our course."  (Bain ed., p. 9)

1797-1798, David Thompson, Mandan villages: "...none of the Men knew the use
of the Compass, and did not like to trust it." (Thompson Narrative, 161)
(Thompson was travelling with an ex-soldier and seven voyageurs.)

1805, F.-A. Larocque: "Went down to the American Fort [Fort Mandan] to get
my compass put in order, the glass being broken and the needle not pointing
north....Capt. Lewis fixed my compass very well, which took him a whole day."

I have many stories about Canadian fur traders getting lost, but I'm sure
there aren't any about Mountain Men, right guys?

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Baking Soda
Date: 03 Feb 1999 16:50:01 -0700

My memory is gone.  Didn't someone say to put a teaspoon of baking soda
in linseed oil to nuetralize the acids before using oil to waterproof
cloth?  Or am I losing it?

DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Baking Soda
Date: 03 Feb 1999 19:37:38 -0800

Don't know about baking soda but I can tell you from recent experience with
boiled linseed oil on canvas that unless you use a drying agent, it can
take up to twelve days to reach a state where it is no longer tacky to the
touch.   Would love to find something to neutralize the odor.

Phyllis and Don Keas wrote:

> My memory is gone.  Didn't someone say to put a teaspoon of baking soda
> in linseed oil to nuetralize the acids before using oil to waterproof
> cloth?  Or am I losing it?
>
> DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: RANDAL J BUBLITZ <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #230
Date: 03 Feb 1999 16:44:42 -0800

Lynne, there is a John Gantt listed in (has a whole chapter) Hafen's
'Trappers of the Far West" ; ISBN 0-8032-7218-9  .  Hope this helps
Hardtack

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Baking Soda
Date: 03 Feb 1999 17:28:34 -0800



Phyllis and Don Keas wrote:

> My memory is gone.  Didn't someone say to put a teaspoon of baking soda
> in linseed oil to nuetralize the acids before using oil to waterproof
> cloth?  Or am I losing it?

Don,

I've heard of doing that too but never found the need with "Boiled Linseed
Oil". Won't hurt anything. As to the odor, I found that it worked better to
thin with something like turpentine, etc. so I wasn't putting so much
linseed oil in the cloth. Doesn't take that much oil, about 50%-50% is
fine. I add a pound of bee's wax to a three lb coffee can about half full
of linseed oil and a small tube of burnt umber oil paint to give a bit of
color (which might take the place of the baking soda). Mix it hot over a
stove with all due care and then thin with thinner off the stove outside.
Place cloth on plastic and roll mix on with  a paint roller. Uses just
enough without the mess of trying to paint it on while hanging (which would
work if you want to go to the trouble). I hang it in the sun and on windy
warm days it will dry in about a week or so. I know, your not supposed to
do it in the sun but I have not had any problems. You might turn it every
few days. I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>
>






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Baking Soda
Date: 03 Feb 1999 21:07:25 -0700

Roger  -  I thank you sir.  Really helped.  I just could not remember
about adding baking soda or not, but will try it your way and see.  Thanks.

DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants

Roger Lahti wrote:
>
>
>Phyllis and Don Keas wrote:
>
>> My memory is gone.  Didn't someone say to put a teaspoon of baking
soda
>> in linseed oil to nuetralize the acids before using oil to waterproof
>> cloth?  Or am I losing it?
>
>Don,
>
>I've heard of doing that too but never found the need with "Boiled
Linseed
>Oil". Won't hurt anything. As to the odor, I found that it worked better
to
>thin with something like turpentine, etc. so I wasn't putting so much
>linseed oil in the cloth. Doesn't take that much oil, about 50%-50% is
>fine. I add a pound of bee's wax to a three lb coffee can about half
full
>of linseed oil and a small tube of burnt umber oil paint to give a bit
of
>color (which might take the place of the baking soda). Mix it hot over a
>stove with all due care and then thin with thinner off the stove
outside.
>Place cloth on plastic and roll mix on with  a paint roller. Uses just
>enough without the mess of trying to paint it on while hanging (which
would
>work if you want to go to the trouble). I hang it in the sun and on
windy
>warm days it will dry in about a week or so. I know, your not supposed
to
>do it in the sun but I have not had any problems. You might turn it
every
>few days. I remain......
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>RFC822 header
>-----------------------------------
>
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[208.252.45.242])
>    by mail1.gte.net  with ESMTP id TAA07611
>    for <[e-mail]>; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:31:18 -0600
(CST)
>Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
>Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 17:28:34 -0800
>From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
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>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: 19th Cent Photos online
Date: 03 Feb 1999 22:58:19 EST

I just received the following and many of you may be interested in it.  The
site looks very promising.

OldFox
..............................................................................
..........................
The Denver Public Library has opened its site,
     http://gowest.coalliance.org which contains more than 50,000 historic
     photographs online.  An additional 45,000 images will be added by the
     summer of 2000.  The database contains images of Native Americans,
     pioneers, gold miners, railroads, and small town life -- much of it
     19th century material.

     Raymond Clark
     Project Director
     303-640-6322
     [e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil
Date: 03 Feb 1999 21:16:17 -0700

Thanks for the answers back.  After reading the one about the mixing over
the stove, my wife made a avery simple suggestion that makes me ashamed I
didn't think of it.  She said don't mix it over a stove, put it in a
crock pot.  If you're wife doesn't want you to use her good one, buy an old
one at a garage sale.  Definately much safer than a stove.
Why didn't I think of that?  Bless that woman if she saves someone from
getting hurt.

DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 19th Cent Photos online
Date: 03 Feb 1999 22:21:43 -0600

Outstanding!!  Thanks a million.
Lanney Ratcliff, Texian
-----Original Message-----


>I just received the following and many of you may be interested in it.  =
The
>site looks very promising.
>
>OldFox
>........................................................................=
......
>..........................
>The Denver Public Library has opened its site,
>     http://gowest.coalliance.org which contains more than 50,000 =
historic
>     photographs online.  An additional 45,000 images will be added by =
the
>     summer of 2000.  The database contains images of Native Americans,
>     pioneers, gold miners, railroads, and small town life -- much of =
it
>     19th century material.
>
>     Raymond Clark
>     Project Director
>     303-640-6322
>     [e-mail]
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #230
Date: 03 Feb 1999 23:23:02 -0500

i saw a film once where a man called "zachary 'bass'" was left for dead
on a fur venture in the 1820's by a "captain 'henry'". this may have
somethin to do with it. the history channel has this story "man in the
wilderness".




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: RANDAL J BUBLITZ <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #230
Date: 03 Feb 1999 22:08:08 -0800

jlynch, This was loosely based on the Hugh Glass Saga.  Mauled by a bear,
left for dead, crawled to recovery.  Read 'The Saga of Hugh Glass' by
John Myers Myers ISBN # 0-8032-5834-8    Hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil
Date: 04 Feb 1999 05:51:34 -0700

Don,

Years ago a friend here in Colorado (won't mention name, many know him), was
cooking up a solution of linseed oil and beeswax mixture for a water sealer
on his kitchen stove. His son was about 12 and studdered, couldn't say 10
words without studdering.

Anyway we're loading ammo in the garage for the blackpowder cartrige shoot
at Raton, the kid is in the kitchen, the mixture boils over. Suddenly the
garage door opens and the kid is saying something about a fire, I can't
figure what the heck he's saying. The boys looks behind him into the kitchen
and comes out loud and clear "you damn mess is burning the frecking kitchen
down", not one word was studdered.

This mixture of linseed and beeswax really did a number on that kitchen, off
course the amount of water we put on that fire didn't help matters either.
Like you say be damn careful with heating in an open pot, even with a lid.

Buck

PS

That kid is grown and married now and the shock treatment with boiling
linseed didn't work he still stud-studd-studders
____________________________
-----Original Message-----


>Thanks for the answers back.  After reading the one about the mixing over
>the stove, my wife made a avery simple suggestion that makes me ashamed I
>didn't think of it.  She said don't mix it over a stove, put it in a
>crock pot.  If you're wife doesn't want you to use her good one, buy an old
>one at a garage sale.  Definately much safer than a stove.
>Why didn't I think of that?  Bless that woman if she saves someone from
>getting hurt.
>
>DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil
Date: 04 Feb 1999 10:02:44 -0800



Barry Conner wrote:

> Don,
>
> Years ago a friend here in Colorado (won't mention name, many know him), was
> cooking up a solution of linseed oil and beeswax mixture for a water sealer
> on his kitchen stove. ------------
>
> This mixture of linseed and beeswax really did a number on that kitchen, off
> course the amount of water we put on that fire didn't help matters either.
> Like you say be damn careful with heating in an open pot, even with a lid.
>
> Buck

Buck,

Thanks for the story that drives home the point that this can be dangerous. I
would recommend that if you wish to try this recipe that you do it outside, stay
with it constantly, do not cover it with a lid so you can see what is going on
in the pot and have a way to cover the pot if it flames up (the best way to put
out the fire) and a way to safely remove the pot from the heat or the heat from
the pot.

As an afterthought (wish I had thought of this earlier) you probably can achieve
the same results by doing things a little backward form what was originally
proposed and make it a lot safer operation. It will take longer but you can
dissolve the bee's wax in the thinner, then stir in the oil paint, baking soda
(if you use it) and linseed oil into the thinner and bee's wax mix. This should
allow the complete mix of all ingredients. If not, see above safety steps. Hope
this helps, I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil
Date: 04 Feb 1999 20:08:13 -0700

Roger,

We used this mixture for years on old canvas and other used items that have
become worn and the fabric seemed porous, worked good to fill in the fine
spaces in the weave, but would collect dirt fairly easy with the beeswax
mixture, in warm weather could get a little greasey, winter a little stiff.
But it still made the item serviceable and was still being used, as our
forefathers would have done. Just part of using what you got and making do.

Buck
________________
-----Original Message-----


>
>
>Barry Conner wrote:
>
>> Don,
>>
>> Years ago a friend here in Colorado (won't mention name, many know him),
was
>> cooking up a solution of linseed oil and beeswax mixture for a water
sealer
>> on his kitchen stove. ------------
>>
>> This mixture of linseed and beeswax really did a number on that kitchen,
off
>> course the amount of water we put on that fire didn't help matters
either.
>> Like you say be damn careful with heating in an open pot, even with a
lid.
>>
>> Buck
>
>Buck,
>
>Thanks for the story that drives home the point that this can be dangerous.
I
>would recommend that if you wish to try this recipe that you do it outside,
stay
>with it constantly, do not cover it with a lid so you can see what is going
on
>in the pot and have a way to cover the pot if it flames up (the best way to
put
>out the fire) and a way to safely remove the pot from the heat or the heat
from
>the pot.
>
>As an afterthought (wish I had thought of this earlier) you probably can
achieve
>the same results by doing things a little backward form what was originally
>proposed and make it a lot safer operation. It will take longer but you can
>dissolve the bee's wax in the thinner, then stir in the oil paint, baking
soda
>(if you use it) and linseed oil into the thinner and bee's wax mix. This
should
>allow the complete mix of all ingredients. If not, see above safety steps.
Hope
>this helps, I remain......
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>>
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bob Spencer)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil
Date: 04 Feb 1999 22:29:30 -0400

>We used this mixture for years on old canvas and other used items that have
>become worn and the fabric seemed porous, worked good to fill in the fine
>spaces in the weave, but would collect dirt fairly easy with the beeswax
>mixture, in warm weather could get a little greasey, winter a little stiff.

I've waterproofed canvas using linseed oil, but never used beeswax in it.
The formula I used was simply boiled linseed oil and iron oxide powder.
Iron oxide comes in two forms, a yellow and a rust brown. Both are used in
making pottery glazes, and can be had in bulk at pottery making shops. The
iron oxide acts as the filler, fills the pores in the fabric, and is
important in the process. I never heated the linseed oil, and don't quite
understand why you guys are doing that. Boiling your own?

I have a ground cloth which has given me excellent service for 8 years, has
never leaked a drop in the hardest rain, and is still going strong. It is
only now showing the first signs of becoming a little tacky.

I've also used pure beeswax for waterproofing items like my haversack. That
works very well, and is easy to do. That sack is 8 years old, has been
carried many a mile, and has never needed to be re-treated. Beeswax used in
that way tends to crack after a time, but it's a simple thing to hold the
bag near the fire and let the wax melt and redistribute itself, healing all
wounds. Beeswax certainly is much more stiff than dried linseed oil,
especially in cold weather, but on items such as my haversack, that creates
no problem. I would think it could on a groundcloth, even in low
concentration.

Bob


Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
non illegitimi carborundum est





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Rifle: wooden stock
Date: 04 Feb 1999 19:44:25 -0800

    Need to put some oil or other substance on the stock of an old flintlock
rifle. Problem is it sits in a museum display where we have trouble with
mice and bugs! Any suggestions on a "non-bug" "non-mouse" soultion for a dry
stock?

Gail





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil
Date: 04 Feb 1999 19:48:06 -0800



Bob Spencer wrote: .
I never heated the linseed oil, and don't quite understand why you guys are
doing that. Boiling your own?

Bob,

No need to heat it unless you want to get some wax to melt in it but since you
don't do that you have no need to heat it. The linseed oil I use comes already
boiled. If I were using it straight, I would not heat it either. I might still
thin it with Turpentine but that's my way.

My ground cloth, made of muslin, was treated with linseed oil, bee's wax and oil
paint (for color). It is not that stiff and has held up for about six seasons
now. For such light fabric, it is holding up quit well and doesn't leak either.

My knap sack and haversack are treated with just bee's wax like yours and both
do a good job of keeping things inside dry. I would not treat them with linseed
oil or paint as a buddy has because that would make them stiff.

I guess we have had different experiences. I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>
>
>






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "landis" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:57:36 -0800
Date: 04 Feb 1999 21:02:31 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_003E_01BE5078.9CB29740
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

hey guys,
I'm terry's(mt.man)brother. he said you might be able to help me? I'm =
looking for a rifle in the $500.00 range any info would help
                                                                         =
           thanks
                                                                         =
           adam

------=_NextPart_000_003E_01BE5078.9CB29740
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>hey guys,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I'm terry's(mt.man)brother. he said you might be =
able to help=20
me? I'm looking for a rifle in the $500.00 range any info would=20
help</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
size=3D2>          &nbs=
p;            =
;            =
            &=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp;           &nb=
sp;           =20
thanks</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
size=3D2>          &nbs=
p;            =
;            =
            &=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp;           &nb=
sp;           =20
adam</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_003E_01BE5078.9CB29740--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:57:36 -0800
Date: 04 Feb 1999 20:07:51 -0800


--------------E678DE82721275D307F31B63
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landis wrote:

>  hey guys,I'm terry's(mt.man)brother. he said you might be able to
> help me? I'm looking for a rifle in the $500.00 range any info would
> help
> thanks
> adam
> Adam,
>
> Sorry to hear that. You have our simpathies. <G> What did you have in
> mind? I'm sure there are lots of ideas for good guns in that range but
> you got to narrow it down some. Are you willing to build a kit? Style?
> Flint? Caliber? I remain....
>
> YMOS
> Capt. lahti'



--------------E678DE82721275D307F31B63
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
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<HTML>
<BODY BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF">


<P>landis wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE> <FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>hey guys,</FONT></FONT><FONT SIZE=-1>I'm
terry's(mt.man)brother. he said you might be able to help me? I'm looking
for a rifle in the $500.00 range any info would help</FONT><FONT SIZE=-1>
thanks</FONT><FONT SIZE=-1>
adam</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=-1>Adam,</FONT><FONT SIZE=-1></FONT>

<P><FONT SIZE=-1>Sorry to hear that. You have our simpathies. <G> What
did you have in mind? I'm sure there are lots of ideas for good guns in
that range but you got to narrow it down some. Are you willing to build
a kit? Style? Flint? Caliber? I remain....</FONT><FONT SIZE=-1></FONT>

<P><FONT SIZE=-1>YMOS</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=-1>Capt. lahti'</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>

</BODY>
</HTML>

--------------E678DE82721275D307F31B63--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "landis" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:57:36 -0800
Date: 04 Feb 1999 20:27:29 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


    -----Original Message-----
    From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Thursday, February 04, 1999 8:09 PM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:57:36 -0800
   =20
   =20
     =20
    landis wrote:=20

         hey guys,I'm terry's(mt.man)brother. he said you might be able =
to help me? I'm looking for a rifle in the $500.00 range any info would =
help                                                                     =
               thanks                                                    =
                                adam=20
        Adam,=20
        Sorry to hear that. You have our simpathies. <G> What did you =
have in mind? I'm sure there are lots of ideas for good guns in that =
range but you got to narrow it down some. Are you willing to build a =
kit? Style? Flint? Caliber? I remain....=20

        YMOS=20
        Capt. lahti'

      thanks for the sympathy, i deal wity it prett good now. .58cal =
lock may not matter,prefer complete

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Roger Lahti <<A=20
    href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>To: =
</B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Thursday, February 04, 1999 8:09 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: =
MtMan-List:=20
    Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:57:36 -0800<BR><BR></DIV></FONT> =20
    <P>landis wrote:=20
    <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE =3D CITE> <FONT color=3D#000000><FONT =
size=3D-1>hey=20
        guys,</FONT></FONT><FONT size=3D-1>I'm terry's(mt.man)brother. =
he said you=20
        might be able to help me? I'm looking for a rifle in the $500.00 =
range=20
        any info would help</FONT><FONT=20
        =
size=3D-1>          &nb=
sp;           &nbs=
p;            =
;            =
            &=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp;           =20
        thanks</FONT><FONT=20
        =
size=3D-1>          &nb=
sp;           &nbs=
p;            =
;            =
            &=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp;           =20
        adam</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D-1>Adam,</FONT><FONT =
size=3D-1></FONT>=20
        <P><FONT size=3D-1>Sorry to hear that. You have our simpathies. =
<G>=20
        What did you have in mind? I'm sure there are lots of ideas for =
good=20
        guns in that range but you got to narrow it down some. Are you =
willing=20
        to build a kit? Style? Flint? Caliber? I remain....</FONT><FONT=20
        size=3D-1></FONT>=20
        <P><FONT size=3D-1>YMOS</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D-1>Capt.=20
    lahti'</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE>  thanks for the sympathy, i deal =
wity it=20
    prett good now. .58cal lock may not matter,prefer=20
complete</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_005D_01BE507C.C95DFF60--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: MtMan-List: Rifle Under $500.00
Date: 04 Feb 1999 21:35:27 -0700 (MST)


Check This Web-Site I think there were several Rifles For Sale

http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb261741

B


"hey guys,
I'm terry's(mt.man)brother. he said you might be able to help me? I'm =
looking for a rifle in the $500.00 range any info would help

 adam"

--
"The Price Of Freedom
     Is Not Free"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mtn.men, they never got lost, just mighty confuse d for a while
Date: 05 Feb 1999 20:51:43 -0600

-----Original Message-----


>Interesting question about compasses. My impression is that in the Canadian
>fur trade, 1774-1821, compasses were present but not common, and probably
>mostly used by "gentlemen", i.e. clerks, factors, and wintering partners

>I have many stories about Canadian fur traders getting lost, but I'm sure
>there aren't any about Mountain Men, right guys?

In the Canadian Rockies the compass points some 20 degrees east of true
north.  Could this explain why the compass was not trusted?  Maybe this
could explain why some Canadians got lost.  Anyway, because the magnetic
pole is in Canada, you can't blame your neighbors to the south. Surely they
must have checked the compass against Polaris to realize this difference.
This difference changes from year to year, but I guess it wasn't too much
different during the fur trade era.  Does your husband know?  I know he is
an accomplished celestial navigator.

Iron Burner




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Laughlin <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Southern California  Hammerfest
Date: 05 Feb 1999 19:40:24 -0800

The second annual Ken Weaver Hammerfest and History Fair will be on
March 6th and 7th at the Yucaipa.  For more information see:
http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/blythe/2/adobe.html




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:57:36 -0800
Date: 06 Feb 1999 13:09:56 -0800


--------------485D93195AE1357FFCD53621
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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>
>
>      landis wrote:
>
>     >  hey guys,I'm terry's(mt.man)brother. he said you might be
>     > able to help me? I'm looking for a rifle in the $500.00
>     > range any info would
>     > help
>     > thanks
>     > adam
>
Adam,

Just had another thought on this search. You and Terry really need to
come to the Enumclau BP Gun Show Mar 13, 14. There should be some good
rifles, etc. there to pick from. I will be hanging around Mike Riders
Table. He sells fine Brain Tan skins and is usually in the second or
middle building. I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > Sorry to hear that. You have our simpathies. <G> What did
>     > you have in mind? I'm sure there are lots of ideas for
>     > good guns in that range but you got to narrow it down
>     > some. Are you willing to build a kit? Style? Flint?
>     > Caliber? I remain....
>     >
>     > YMOS
>     > Capt. lahti'
>
>        thanks for the sympathy, i deal wity it prett good now.
>      .58cal lock may not matter,prefer complete
>


--------------485D93195AE1357FFCD53621
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
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<HTML>
<BODY BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF">

<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1></FONT></FONT>

<P>landis wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE = CITE> <FONT SIZE=-1><FONT COLOR="#000000">hey guys,</FONT>I'm
terry's(mt.man)brother. he said you might be able to help me? I'm looking
for a rifle in the $500.00 range any info would help
thanks
adam</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
Adam,

<P>Just had another thought on this search. You and Terry really need to
come to the Enumclau BP Gun Show Mar 13, 14. There should be some good
rifles, etc. there to pick from. I will be hanging around Mike Riders Table.
He sells fine Brain Tan skins and is usually in the second or middle building.
I remain......

<P>YMOS
<BR>Capt. Lahti'
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE = CITE>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=-1>Sorry to hear that. You have our simpathies. <G> What
did you have in mind? I'm sure there are lots of ideas for good guns in
that range but you got to narrow it down some. Are you willing to build
a kit? Style? Flint? Caliber? I remain....</FONT>

<P><FONT SIZE=-1>YMOS</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=-1>Capt. lahti'</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
  thanks for the sympathy, i deal wity it prett good now. .58cal lock
may not matter,prefer complete</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>

</BODY>
</HTML>

--------------485D93195AE1357FFCD53621--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: You might be a buckskinner if..
Date: 07 Feb 1999 12:10:37 -0500

You might be a buckskinner if...
...this is how you define the following computer terms:

LOG ON: making the woodstove hotter.
LOG OFF: Don't add no more wood.
MONITOR: Keepin an eye on that wood stove.
DOWNLOAD: Gettin the farwood off'n the truk.
MEGA HERTZ: When yer not keerful gettin that farwood downloaded.
FLOPPY DISK: Whatcha git from tryin to carry too much farwood.
RAM: That thar whut splits tha farwood.
HARD DRIVE: Gettin home in the winter time.
PROMPT: Whut the mail ain't in the winter time.
WINDOWS: Whut to shut when its cold outside.
SCREEN: Whut to shut when its blak fly season.
BYTE: Whut them dang flys do.
CHIP: Munchies fer the TV.
MICRO CHIP: Whuts left in the munchie bag.
MODEM: Whatcha did to the hay fields.
DOT MATRIX: Ol Dan Matrix's wife.
LAP TOP: Whur the kitty sleeps.
KEYBOARD: Whur ya hang the dang keys.
SOFTWARE: Them dang plastik forks and knifs.
MOUSE: What eats the grain in the barn.
MAIN FRAME: Holds up the barn ruf.
PORT: Fancy Flatlander Wine.
ENTER: Northern fer c'mon in y'all.
RANDOM ACCESS MEMORY: When ya caint member whut ya paid for yer new
rifle when yorewife asks.

--
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: MtMan-List: Updated Site..OFF TOPIC  SELF SERVING ANNOUNCEMENT!!
Date: 07 Feb 1999 15:58:28 -0500

Hello...

 I updated my site today, mostly the knife page,  for those of you that have
written and wondered when I would get back to work....<G>  Sorry to disturb
the rest of y'all.

Regards
Dennis

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mtn.men, they never got lost, just mighty confuse d for a while
Date: 04 Feb 1999 05:35:16 -0800

I mentioned the other day about Alexander Ross His native guide asked why
he carried the compass Ross said it was like having two guides,  the native
said why do you need two guides Ross said pointing to his double barreled
shot gun it is like having two barrels on my gun, the native was satisfied
with that.

----------
: From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
: To: [e-mail]
: Subject: RE: MtMan-List: mtn.men, they never got lost, just mighty
confuse d for a while
: Date: Wednesday, February 03, 1999 8:36 AM
:
: Interesting question about compasses. My impression is that in the
Canadian
: fur trade, 1774-1821, compasses were present but not common, and probably

: mostly used by "gentlemen", i.e. clerks, factors, and wintering partners
: (who were usually the explorers, e.g. David Thompson, Alexander
Mackenzie,
: Simon Fraser, Peter Fidler).
:
: Here's some quotes:
: 1760, Alexander Henry the Elder: "...the snow...prevented us, at times,
from
: discovering the land, and consequently (for compass we had none), from
: pursuing, with certainty, our course."  (Bain ed., p. 9)
:
: 1797-1798, David Thompson, Mandan villages: "...none of the Men knew the
use
: of the Compass, and did not like to trust it." (Thompson Narrative, 161)
: (Thompson was travelling with an ex-soldier and seven voyageurs.)
:
: 1805, F.-A. Larocque: "Went down to the American Fort [Fort Mandan] to
get
: my compass put in order, the glass being broken and the needle not
pointing
: north....Capt. Lewis fixed my compass very well, which took him a whole
day."
:
: I have many stories about Canadian fur traders getting lost, but I'm sure

: there aren't any about Mountain Men, right guys?
:
: Your humble & obedient servant,
: Angela Gottfred
: [e-mail]
:
:



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dominique Racicot <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Red River ox cart
Date: 02 Feb 1999 19:43:34 -0700

Hi. A friend of mine is trying to biuld one of these carts from scratch,
and asked me if I could go onto the net to see if I could find out how
the axles were attached to the rest of the frame. Could you please tell
me or direct me to somewhere where I can see some pictures or diagrams
for this? Thanks for your time.
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dave Billock <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: History
Date: 02 Feb 1999 09:32:36 -0400

May I please have some info on James Beckworth traveling the Oregon
Trail?



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mtn.men, they never got lost, just mighty confused for a while
Date: 02 Feb 1999 05:06:05 -0800

One man who worked for the Pacific Trade Co. and the NW Co.  was Alexander
Ross Made mention to a compass to an Indian guide going over the North
Cascade Pass now in the state of Washington.  All the leaders for the HBC
and NW CO.,  did and I also don't remember being mentioned by just trappers
maybe because very few could not read and write and didn't keep a journal.
Later Jon T

----------
: From: northwoods <[e-mail]>
: To: [e-mail]
: Subject: MtMan-List: mtn.men, they never got lost, just mighty confused
for a while
: Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 6:51 PM
:
: My wife asked me yesterday,"Did the mountain men carry
: compasses?".  I chuckled a little at the question and then told
: her what I knew about the development and early use of the
: compass,then told her some of the ways one is able to navigate
: without a compass,but finally had to admit that I could'nt think
: of a single reference to compasses in anything i have read about
: mountain men or early western exploration.
:
: Can anyone give me references to compasses or any tools
: for navigation being used by mtn. men or early western explorers?
:
: ( I think I may have read something in the journals of Lewis & Clark,
: but can't be certain.)
:
: From the northwoods,
:
: Tony Clark
:



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dennis Fisher <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: mtn.men, they never got lost, just mighty confused for a while
Date: 01 Feb 1999 19:44:15 -0800

> "Did the mountain men carry compasses?".
>
> Tony Clark

I found a photo of Lewis & Clark's compass at the Smithsonian and
forwarded the address to Dean.  It on his web page or at least a link to
it.

          Dennis



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Elk antler bows...
Date: 30 Jan 1999 22:26:55 EST

The subject is well covered in the Three Vols of "traditional Bowyer's Bible"
Ref:
Bois D'arc Press, Azle, Tx....call and talk to Jim Hamm....He will refer you
to Dr. Grayson.....



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dennis Fisher <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pins Verses Wedges??
Date: 30 Jan 1999 14:24:01 -0800

BRUCE S. DE LIS wrote:

> Are there Rifles with "Wedges" instead of Pins, Period Correct?
>

  I no expert on this but I would reckon that the use of pins verses wedges depends
on how the rifle is breached.  If the rifle uses a hook breech then I would assume
wedges were the preferred method of securing the barrel.  This system makes the
barrel easy to remove for cleaning or whatever.  The wedges are easy to remove and
replace.   And conversely, if the rifle had a standard breech tang, it probably would
not be removed as often and pins would be appropriate.  The wedges normally have
escutcheons around them to protect the wood and keep from enlarging the hole with
repeated removal and replacement.  The pin holes are not normally protected and
frequent removal and replacement would tend to enlarge the holes over time.  Anyway,
that's my 2 cents worth.

           Dennis Fisher



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dennis Fisher <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Seeking Advice On Rifle Builder
Date: 25 Jan 1999 19:30:52 -0800

BRUCE S. DE LIS wrote:
I have catalog's from JP. GunStock of Las Vegas, TVM, and have visited the Web-sites
of both Jackie Brown, G.L. Jones, Al edge, and Jim Chambers.

I can personally attest to the very fine quality of Glen Jones's rifles.  There may
be others as good but you would have to look long and hard to find better.

          Dennis Fisher



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: terry l landis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Seeking Advice On Rifle Builder
Date: 07 Feb 1999 19:08:13 -0800

i didn't get the original post but if you want info on tvm i just got a
58 cal Virginia from them last week. over all i am pleased, but the wood
to metal fit could have been better. i haven't had time to shoot it yet.
i will be happy to let you know how it does if you drop me your address
off list. i should be able to work up a load this week weather
permitting.

YMHS, Terry L Landis

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Lindseed Oil
Date: 07 Feb 1999 22:21:50 -0600 (CST)


>Don,

[Sniperoo . . .]

 "you damn mess is burning the frecking kitchen
>down", not one word was studdered.
>
>This mixture of linseed and beeswax really did a number on that kitchen, off
>course the amount of water we put on that fire didn't help matters either.
>Like you say be damn careful with heating in an open pot, even with a lid.

>Buck


Simple solution.  Dig yourself a firepit and take the whole operation outside.

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******   Living History . . . Because it's there!   ******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Lindseed Oil
Date: 07 Dec 1999 22:42:55 -0600

I have discovered that the main difference between buckskinners and boy =
scouts is that buckskinners don't have responsible adult supervision.  =
Did She Who Must Be Obeyed get a new kitchen out of the fiasco?
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----


>
>>Don,
>
>[Sniperoo . . .]
>
> "you damn mess is burning the frecking kitchen
>>down", not one word was studdered.
>>
>>This mixture of linseed and beeswax really did a number on that =
kitchen, off
>>course the amount of water we put on that fire didn't help matters =
either.
>>Like you say be damn careful with heating in an open pot, even with a =
lid.
>
>>Buck
>
>
>Simple solution.  Dig yourself a firepit and take the whole operation =
outside.
>
>Cheers,
>HBC
>
>*****************************************
>Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
>[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
>806/742-2442           Box 43191
>FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
>******   Living History . . . Because it's there!   ******
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Lindseed Oil
Date: 08 Feb 1999 00:15:10 -0500

Heh... I remember one time I tried making candles in the kitchen... OOPS!!
The beeswax caught on fire, scorching hell outta the cabinets before I could
get the Purple-K extinguisher from the garage... GADS!!! I think that was a
bigger mess than the fire!!  To answer a question ahead of time, Yeppers...
she got the kitchen remodeled... Last damned time I did that in the house.
Moved to my work shed after that along with lead pot, etc... Kept me outta
trouble fer a while... Got me a new She Who MustBe Obeyed... She loves
Ronnyvous'in as much as I do, so at least lets me into the garage... :)


-----Original Message-----


>I have discovered that the main difference between buckskinners and boy
scouts is that buckskinners don't have responsible adult supervision.  Did
She Who Must Be Obeyed get a new kitchen out of the fiasco?
>Lanney Ratcliff
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Henry B. Crawford <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Sunday, February 07, 1999 10:26 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Lindseed Oil
>
>
>>
>>>Don,
>>
>>[Sniperoo . . .]
>>
>> "you damn mess is burning the frecking kitchen
>>>down", not one word was studdered.
>>>
>>>This mixture of linseed and beeswax really did a number on that kitchen,
off
>>>course the amount of water we put on that fire didn't help matters
either.
>>>Like you say be damn careful with heating in an open pot, even with a
lid.
>>
>>>Buck
>>
>>
>>Simple solution.  Dig yourself a firepit and take the whole operation
outside.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>HBC
>>
>>*****************************************
>>Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
>>[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
>>806/742-2442           Box 43191
>>FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>>               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
>>******   Living History . . . Because it's there!   ******
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ron Chamberlain" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: John "Liver Eating" Johnston
Date: 08 Feb 1999 00:06:59 -0700

Hello the list!

I finally got the article about J. Johnston done and posted on my website.
You can read it at:
<http://www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/Johnston.html>
or there is a link from my Clubs page below. If you would like this article
zipped contact me OFFLIST and I will email. Zip is in Wordpad .doc format.

Thank you Longtrail and TetonTod for the help!!!

Enjoy!
YMOS
Ron
AKA Lonewolf





Lewis Fork Free Trappers
<http://www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/trappers.html>
email: [e-mail]
ICQ #26140332



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: greg n bosen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:blood poision
Date: 08 Feb 1999 02:44:04 -0500

is this from exposure to the bacteria of a rotten hide or can this accure
with a sweet smelling hide too?

Greg Bosen
I did get blood poisioning from one of my hides a few years ago.


> Once hide begin to smell, you take the chance of blood poisoning
occuring to
>yourself.

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Matthew Hawley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:57:36 -0800
Date: 08 Feb 1999 05:55:49 PST




Adam,

    HAve you tried catologs like red head or cabelas they both have top of
the line muzzleloaders in flint lock too.

                                            check it out.
                                            matt (white eagle)hawley

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: MtMan-List: Stock Preservation in Dry Heat
Date: 08 Feb 1999 08:18:48 -0700 (MST)



First let me say that I live in Dry Heat Phoenix Arizona.  May question has to d
o with Wooden Rifle Stocks, my old shooter is not really worth all the trouble I
have put into keeping the stock well oiled to keep the thing from drying out in t
he lovely Arizona Dry heat, I used everything available like 3-1 Oil, WD-40, and
even Old English to keep the stock on the old shooter some oiled, to protect it f
rom drying out.  So I am getting ready to buy this nice Semi-Custom Rifle.

Am wondering if any of you have had the opportunity to experience this Dry Heat,
and found a product that really protect the wood, and keeps it stabilized, keep m
oisture in the wood, so it down not shrink and dry out and pop inlays, or crackin
g lock mortise area.  Surely some of you come out to Winter Nationals, and have e
xperienced the Arizona Dry Heat and understand what I am speaking of when I say D
RY HEAT.  Any product suggestion would be greatly appreciated.

--
"The Price Of Freedom
     Is Not Free"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S.M.Despain-1" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stock Preservation in Dry Heat
Date: 08 Feb 1999 10:31:47 -0600

Bruce:

Just an idea for you.  Guitarists have much the same problem with guitars brought
from moister climes to the intermountain west.  One solution could be to get guitar
humidifiers that you can put in a case with your rifle. They are available at most
guitar or music shops and cost only a few bucks.  But you need to keep them and the
rifle in a confined space to maintain the humidity.  I don't know about possible
problems with the metal, but guitars have a bit and I've never had problems with
those parts rusting or corroding.

Good luck,

Matt Depsain
University of Oklahoma
[e-mail]

BRUCE S. DE LIS wrote:

> First let me say that I live in Dry Heat Phoenix Arizona.  May question has to d
> o with Wooden Rifle Stocks, my old shooter is not really worth all the trouble I
> have put into keeping the stock well oiled to keep the thing from drying out in t
> he lovely Arizona Dry heat, I used everything available like 3-1 Oil, WD-40, and
> even Old English to keep the stock on the old shooter some oiled, to protect it f
> rom drying out.  So I am getting ready to buy this nice Semi-Custom Rifle.
>
> Am wondering if any of you have had the opportunity to experience this Dry Heat,
> and found a product that really protect the wood, and keeps it stabilized, keep m
> oisture in the wood, so it down not shrink and dry out and pop inlays, or crackin
> g lock mortise area.  Surely some of you come out to Winter Nationals, and have e
> xperienced the Arizona Dry Heat and understand what I am speaking of when I say D
> RY HEAT.  Any product suggestion would be greatly appreciated.
>
> --
> "The Price Of Freedom
>      Is Not Free"




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: John "Liver Eating" Johnston
Date: 08 Feb 1999 09:44:45 -0800

Ron:
    Thanks for the article on Johnston. I read an interesting book that
continues the saga of Johnston:
 Crow Killer; The Saga of Liver-Eating Johnson. written by Raymond Thorp and
Robert Bunker, Indiana University Press first in 1958.
    The authors recognize the story is "Oral history"
Gail Carbiener
==============================


>Hello the list!
>
>I finally got the article about J. Johnston done and posted on my website.
>You can read it at:
><http://www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/Johnston.html>
>or there is a link from my Clubs page below. If you would like this article
>zipped contact me OFFLIST and I will email. Zip is in Wordpad .doc format.
>
>Thank you Longtrail and TetonTod for the help!!!
>
>Enjoy!
>YMOS
>Ron
>AKA Lonewolf
>
>
>
>
>
>Lewis Fork Free Trappers
><http://www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/trappers.html>
>email: [e-mail]
>ICQ #26140332





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stock Preservation in Dry Heat
Date: 08 Feb 1999 14:21:42 -0700 (MST)




Great idea,

Thanks,

B
>
>Bruce:
>
>Just an idea for you.  Guitarists have much the same problem with guitars brought
>from moister climes to the intermountain west.  One solution could be to get guitar
>humidifiers that you can put in a case with your rifle. They are available at most
>guitar or music shops and cost only a few bucks.  But you need to keep them and the
>rifle in a confined space to maintain the humidity.  I don't know about possible
>problems with the metal, but guitars have a bit and I've never had problems with
>those parts rusting or corroding.
>
>Good luck,
>
>Matt Depsain
>University of Oklahoma
>[e-mail]
>
>BRUCE S. DE LIS wrote:
>
>> First let me say that I live in Dry Heat Phoenix Arizona.  May question has to d
>> o with Wooden Rifle Stocks, my old shooter is not really worth all the trouble I
>> have put into keeping the stock well oiled to keep the thing from drying out in t
>> he lovely Arizona Dry heat, I used everything available like 3-1 Oil, WD-40, and
>> even Old English to keep the stock on the old shooter some oiled, to protect it f
>> rom drying out.  So I am getting ready to buy this nice Semi-Custom Rifle.
>>
>> Am wondering if any of you have had the opportunity to experience this Dry Heat,
>> and found a product that really protect the wood, and keeps it stabilized, keep m
>> oisture in the wood, so it down not shrink and dry out and pop inlays, or crackin
>> g lock mortise area.  Surely some of you come out to Winter Nationals, and have e
>> xperienced the Arizona Dry Heat and understand what I am speaking of when I say D
>> RY HEAT.  Any product suggestion would be greatly appreciated.
>>
>> --
>> "The Price Of Freedom
>>      Is Not Free"
>
>
>
>

--
"The Price Of Freedom
     Is Not Free"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: MtMan-List: Caliber & Accuracy
Date: 08 Feb 1999 16:30:45 -0700 (MST)



Just finished reading a letter from a friend who is a better than fairly good Bl
ack Powder target shooter, he maybe be out to the Winter Nationals here next week
 to do his best to win some of the prizes in some of the events.  He shoots most
the primitive matches, and is one H*** of a shot.  Shoots nothing bigger than .45
 Calibers, but .38-.40 Caliber are his favorites.  Anyway back a while I ask him
why all of these real good target shooter, who shoot Primitive and the non primit
ive events shoot mostly with the smaller calibers, like .38-.45 Calibers.  I am t
alking about Non-Bench rifles, and I am also talking about Off-Hand Shooting.  We
ll I am no tech no whiz, but the words "More Consistency Keeps Coming Up In His L
etter.  Anyone one to comment or explain why you can not achieve such good consis
tent, accurate with a .50, .54  or Larger Caliber Patched Roundball as you can wi
th the Smaller .38-.45 Caliber Roundball on Calm Non-Windy Days.

B

--
"The Price Of Freedom
     Is Not Free"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Glenn Darilek <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Caliber & Accuracy
Date: 08 Feb 1999 17:56:52 -0600

One factor may be that many competitive black powder shoots require the
hole in the target to be entirely within the ring to be counted as in
the ring.  The smaller caliber has an advantage in that if the 38
caliber is just inside the line, a 54 caliber shot in the same spot
would be touching the line and would be scored at the next lower ring.
Not much difference, but in competition it can add up.

On another shooting subject - has anyone ever tried having a tie breaker
in black powder shooting in which using a flintlock would break the tie
with a percussion, and using fixed sights would break a tie with one
using adjustable sights.  This seems inherently fair, and promotes
authentic period shooting.

If no one has heard of this, maybe I can claim the idea.

Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner

BRUCE S. DE LIS wrote:
> Anyone one to comment or explain why you can not achieve such good consis
> tent, accurate with a .50, .54  or Larger Caliber Patched Roundball as you can wi
> th the Smaller .38-.45 Caliber Roundball



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Caliber & Accuracy
Date: 09 Feb 1999 07:01:01 -0600

Bruce,
  There is at least one very good reason. Velocity.  You can very easily
get enough velocity out of the smaller calibers, to enable them to shoot
virtually flat out to one hundred yards and beyond. This eliminates the
guess work of holding over or under the ten ring. Since competive shooting
is in large part a mental game, this allows you to concentrate on the site
picture without having to think about allowing for elevation. Most of the
oldtimers who shot in the big time matches prefered the smaller calibers.
Things haven't changed a bit. If you can, get hold of a copy of THE MUZZLE
LOADING CAPLOCK RIFLE by NED ROBERTS. It is a great source of information
on competive shooting. This is the same Ned Roberts who perfected the .257
Roberts cartridge.
Pendleton

----------
> From: BRUCE S. DE LIS <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: MtMan-List: Caliber & Accuracy
> Date: Monday, February 08, 1999 5:30 PM
>
>
>
> Just finished reading a letter from a friend who is a better than fairly
good Bl
> ack Powder target shooter, he maybe be out to the Winter Nationals here
next week
>  to do his best to win some of the prizes in some of the events.  He
shoots most
> the primitive matches, and is one H*** of a shot.  Shoots nothing bigger
than .45
>  Calibers, but .38-.40 Caliber are his favorites.  Anyway back a while I
ask him
> why all of these real good target shooter, who shoot Primitive and the
non primit
> ive events shoot mostly with the smaller calibers, like .38-.45 Calibers.
 I am t
> alking about Non-Bench rifles, and I am also talking about Off-Hand
Shooting.  We
> ll I am no tech no whiz, but the words "More Consistency Keeps Coming Up
In His L
> etter.  Anyone one to comment or explain why you can not achieve such
good consis
> tent, accurate with a .50, .54  or Larger Caliber Patched Roundball as
you can wi
> th the Smaller .38-.45 Caliber Roundball on Calm Non-Windy Days.
>
> B
>
> --
> "The Price Of Freedom
>      Is Not Free"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "William S. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: John "Liver Eating" Johnston
Date: 08 Feb 1999 19:31:06 -0600

Ron, I don't post very often, but I did happen to read your post about John
Johnston. I gather that you are not an AMM member, or you would likely know
that this brother was again disinterred a number of years ago, and reburied
by members of AMM, with Robert Redford assisting in carrying the remains, to
a place far more compatible with the adventurous spirit of this legendary
mountain man.

Also, before you float this page for too long, you may want to run it
through a spell checker. I didn't have a chance to read all of it, but
noticed toward the ending, the transposed letters "ot" instead of "to".
This, combined with the inaccuracy of his final resting place tips me off
that there may be other mistakes/misspellings.

Please understand that your effort is greatly appreciated, and the above is
meant solely to be constructive in nature.


Bill Jones
"Waffalo"
Hiveranno, AMM # 907
Past KY Bde. Booshway

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Ron Chamberlain
Sent: Monday, February 08, 1999 1:07 AM


Hello the list!

I finally got the article about J. Johnston done and posted on my website.
You can read it at:
<http://www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/Johnston.html>
or there is a link from my Clubs page below. If you would like this article
zipped contact me OFFLIST and I will email. Zip is in Wordpad .doc format.

Thank you Longtrail and TetonTod for the help!!!

Enjoy!
YMOS
Ron
AKA Lonewolf





Lewis Fork Free Trappers
<http://www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/trappers.html>
email: [e-mail]
ICQ #26140332





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:blood poision
Date: 08 Feb 1999 17:42:58 -0800 (PST)

Greg

On Mon, 8 Feb 1999, greg n bosen wrote:
> is this from exposure to the bacteria of a rotten hide or can this accure
> with a sweet smelling hide too?

When your working with the braintan (fleshing, dehairing and such), it
doesn't take much for a hide to attract bacteria and the natural process
of decompostion to begin (smelllll bad).  The blood poisioning
comes in when you have an opening on your hand such as a cut, scrape, or
chapped skin, and you place it on the hide that has the bacteria on it.
In essence, you are now infected with the same bacteria that are eating
the dead deer hide.

A rather unpleasant thought.

Regards

Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho
NMLRA member 058863
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Caliber & Accuracy
Date: 08 Feb 1999 19:20:12 -0700

I have been around major shooters most of my life, many from the black
powder ranks like Ron Long (2 or 3 time Olympic BP Champ), the Furlows and
Don Davis to name a few. Long will shoot a 40 cal. with no wind and a 50
cal. with a little wind. These guys as many, don't worry about touching a
scoring ring and if they do they consider it a miss, of course they shoot
49XXXX and 50 XXXXX targets, one right after another. I've seen Long at the
Colorado State and New Mexico State Championships (many years in a row)
shoot those type of scores with flint and prec. in larger calibers also.

So as far as looking for an advantage in one cal. over another, size, speed
or whatever, the really super shots, just practice a little more and do not
worry about some of the ideas other shotters are looking at. A book on
shooting muzzleloaders called, "MUZZLE LOADING SHOOTING & WINNING WITH THE
CHAMPIONS" talks about this and more, written by some old timers that have
turned Friendship around with their scores over the years, like
M.Vickery-W.Terry-B.Butcher-W.Grote-B.Carmichael- D.Davis-P.Allan-W.Boughton
to name a few.

Saw a match against high power cart. rifles w/scopes, the muzzleloaders won
the 25 yd., 50 yd. bench and offhand matches hand down, and took 5 out of 12
of the 100 yd. matches with 50 cal. guns, these were all top notch shooters
on both teams. Bet those high power boys did some more practice on the
shorter ranges after that shoot.

Buck
____________________-
-----Original Message-----


>One factor may be that many competitive black powder shoots require the
>hole in the target to be entirely within the ring to be counted as in
>the ring.  The smaller caliber has an advantage in that if the 38
>caliber is just inside the line, a 54 caliber shot in the same spot
>would be touching the line and would be scored at the next lower ring.
>Not much difference, but in competition it can add up.
>
>On another shooting subject - has anyone ever tried having a tie breaker
>in black powder shooting in which using a flintlock would break the tie
>with a percussion, and using fixed sights would break a tie with one
>using adjustable sights.  This seems inherently fair, and promotes
>authentic period shooting.
>
>If no one has heard of this, maybe I can claim the idea.
>
>Glenn Darilek
>Iron Burner
>
>BRUCE S. DE LIS wrote:
>> Anyone one to comment or explain why you can not achieve such good consis
>> tent, accurate with a .50, .54  or Larger Caliber Patched Roundball as
you can wi
>> th the Smaller .38-.45 Caliber Roundball
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Caliber & Accuracy
Date: 08 Feb 1999 22:18:20 -0600

Those guys are surely some fine shots, and I am sure they must practice
more, and have more God-given talent than most.  But the question was "why
do they prefer the smaller calibers?"  If practice was the only factor, they
would shoot the larger calibers as well.  Am I wrong about the rules?  In
effect, the smaller caliber provides a smaller X circle.  It would be
foolish trying to hit an X circle that was smaller than your caliber.  Does
the book say anything about this?

Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner

-----Original Message-----
>
>So as far as looking for an advantage in one cal. over another, size, speed
>or whatever, the really super shots, just practice a little more and do not
>worry about some of the ideas other shotters are looking at. A book on
>shooting muzzleloaders called, "MUZZLE LOADING SHOOTING & WINNING WITH THE
>CHAMPIONS" talks about this and more, written by some old timers that have
>turned Friendship around with their scores over the years, like
>M.Vickery-W.Terry-B.Butcher-W.Grote-B.Carmichael-
D.Davis-P.Allan-W.Boughton
>to name a few.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stock Preservation in Dry Heat
Date: 09 Feb 1999 03:03:22 EST

In a message dated 99-02-08 10:19:40 EST, you write:

<< First let me say that I live in Dry Heat Phoenix Arizona.  May question has
to d
 o with Wooden Rifle Stocks,  >>

I live in Las Vegas NV, so our climate isn't much different.  Ive had excelent
luck with oiling my stocks with either Wahkon Bay's "Tru-coat" stock finish or
my own version of it.  I make mine out of boiled linseed oil & turpentine --
50 - 50 mix.  The "Tru-coat" smells strongly of turpentine & feels like it's
got linseed oil in it.  The oils you've been using are petroleum based -- a
"no - no" on wood.  If you make some up, be sure you use real turpentine, not
that synthetic crap -- it doesn't work -- I've tried it.  This mix is a period
combination & still works better than anything else I've found.  John Cramer,
who posts here regularly, is very knowledgable on wood finishing with the old
methods.  One of his mixes is equal parts linseed oil, turpentine, & vinegar
(cider vinegar preferably) -- & it works well -- again -- I've tried it -- I
finished my North Star trade gun with it.  He recomends buying raw linseed &
boiling your own -- I haven't tried that -- yet.  I'd recently gotten some
antique wood body wood planes & bringing them out here from NW MO had them
starting to crack.  A 48 hr soak in his 3 part mix stopped the damage & even
tightened up the loose handles.  One of these planes was my Great-great
Grandad's & it's aproximately 110 yrs old -- I'd have realy hated to see it
reduced to a pile of splinters, which was where it was headed.  A couple of
months ago, I sharpened one of the planes up & tried using it.  After I finaly
got it set right, it worked better than my metal Stanley.  I noticed when
sharpening it, it had the typical period blade -- wrought iron with a thin
steel layer forge welded to it -- the hard steel layer definitely visable
against the iron body.  When working with wood, the better finishes are
vegetable based, not petroleum.

  The suggestion of using a guitar humidifier will cause you rusting problems
if you don't use rust inhibiting oils on your metal parts & you'll have to be
sure your barrel is squeeky clean & oiled after every time you shoot.  ANY B/P
residue coupled with humidity is almost instant rust -- you can have a severe
problem within 24 hrs.

When you first get your rifle, oil it down & when it starts to look a little
dull, re-oil it.  If it's unfinished, that may be as quick as 30 min, but a
well oiled stock seems to need a fresh coat about every 4 - 6 months here.
You can request an oil finish, & I don't know too many builders who won't
comply.  After several years, the finish will build up to where it looks like
it's a foot deep right after an oiling.  IF you get too much oil on it, it'll
be a bit tacky after 24 hrs -- no problem -- go over it LIGHTLY with 00 or 000
steel wool.  Don't forget to oil the barrel channel & lock mortise at least
every 6 months.  One thing I realy like about the oil finish is if you get a
ding or scratch, just re-oil it & it blends right in.  I got a nasty gouge in
my favorite rifle stock -- 2 yrs later, the gouge is still there, but it's a
finished gouge with the same sheen as the rest of the stock so it doesn't
stick out like a sore thumb any more.  Every rifle & trade gun I have are oil
finished.  I've even sanded down my Lyman Great Plains & oiled it (also
stripped off the bluing & browned all the iron).  Since I switched to the oil
finish about 8 years ago, I haven't had any dry wood problems.

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Janzen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brain Tan
Date: 09 Feb 1999 21:29:44 -0500

Don't worry Matt, the first hide I tanned was a calf hide in the Mojave
desert in July. Yes it stinks. I was just waiting for the neighbors to call
the police to find the dead body in my garage! I would not recommend doing
this activity (in that place during summer).
Kid!
-----Original Message-----

>They had a definite rotted smell. First question, is this the norm
>there is obvious
>decomposition starting here.(smells really really bad)
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Janzen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Capotes & stuff...
Date: 09 Feb 1999 21:58:49 -0500

Can one of y'all tell me the correct pronunciation of "Capote"? Is it
"ka-pote" or "ka-potee"?
This has been bugging me for a while...
Kid!
PS: late winter work continues with the production of outfits. I found a
great sale at a fabric store in Manassas on wool. It seems now is the time
to buy as the places get rid of their Fall and Winter stockages. Go check it
out.
PPS: can anyone point me in the direction of coat styles for 1800-1810 St.
Louis? I know there could be influences from many styles; American, French,
Spanish, Indian... Where might I find some representative pictures of
various classes' dress there, then?




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: trade blanket items
Date: 10 Feb 1999 01:13:27 EST

 I am looking forward to going to rendezvous(my 2nd) again this summer.
Iwould like to have a trade blanket



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: trad blanket
Date: 10 Feb 1999 01:30:30 EST

sorry about that last partial message, I hit the wrong @#*@! button.  What I
was getting around to is this,  I'm trying to figure out what items to have
available for our Local Ronnyvoo.  My wife is pretty crafty and can do most
things fairly well. So basically whats hot, and whats not?  Any help would be
appreciated.   Thanks in advance.

YMHS,
Wade "Griz" Smith
Meridian, ID



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mill, Kirk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: trad blanket
Date: 10 Feb 1999 09:28:14 -0500


>  I'm trying to figure out what items to have
> available for our Local Ronnyvoo.  My wife is pretty crafty and can do
> most
> things fairly well. So basically whats hot, and whats not?  Any help would
> be
> appreciated.   Thanks in advance.
>
> YMHS,
> Wade "Griz" Smith
> Meridian, ID
    [Mill, Kirk]  I'm looking at the same situation. Right now I am
hoping that I can make some cash or barter with my gourd canteens. I have
basically an unlimited supply of dried gourds. I clean out the insides, seal
the insides with parrafin, sew on a support harness made from buckskin I
tanned, and add a cork and rope strap. What do you folks think that
something like this is worth? TIA
    Kirk Mill




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jody Carlson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Track of the Wolf
Date: 09 Feb 1999 21:23:24 -0600

Hello the list,

Can any of you tell me if Track of the Wolf has a website?

I am also wondering as to the cost of their latest catalog.

Thanks in advance,

Jody
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trad blanket
Date: 10 Feb 1999 11:37:57 EST

In a message dated 2/10/99 6:36:36 AM !!!First Boot!!!, Griz writes:

<< sorry about that last partial message, I hit the wrong @#*@! button.  What
I
 was getting around to is this,  I'm trying to figure out what items to have
 available for our Local Ronnyvoo.  My wife is pretty crafty and can do most
 things fairly well. So basically whats hot, and whats not?  Any help would be
 appreciated.   Thanks in advance. >>

  Well Griz, I'm not going to be of much help here, but there are plenty who
can give you a good detailed list. I just figured I'd make a comment.  You
don't really HAVE to have a trade blanket unless it's really something you
just want to do. Myself, if it's yer second vous, I'd just go and enjoy. Look
around with the trade thing on yer mind and see what suits yer fancy. Looking
at it from that perspective something may jump out at you that you overlooked
at the yer first vous that will have you saying "man I can do that and I think
I would really enjoy that." Going to rendezvous does not mean that you have to
set out a blanket. I just through that in because I have talked with people
who came away with the impression that it was a "must" to do. I've been in
this game fer almost ten years now and have yet to throw a blanket. If I get a
hair to make something, it will either be for my own use or to give to a good
friend. I just go to rendezvous, have a great time and rather than try to sell
anybody anything, I'll spend time just talking to the flatlanders (public) and
explain what it is I am portraying etc.  Also at this early stage you are
still trying to develop and define the character you want to portray and then
you will find yerself redefining etc.  I would just concentrate on that for
starts.  Maybe why I haven't set to trading, I'm still redefining my
character...........maybe someday I will find myself!



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Track of the Wolf
Date: 10 Feb 1999 09:10:18 -0800



Jody Carlson wrote:

> Hello the list,
>
> Can any of you tell me if Track of the Wolf has a website?
>
> I am also wondering as to the cost of their latest catalog.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Jody
> [e-mail]

Jody,

www.trackofthewolf.com> I don't recall what I paid for the cataloge but
it was about $5 or so. I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Laughlin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Track of the Wolf
Date: 10 Feb 1999 08:58:57 -0800

Their catalog is $7 and it is a big one.  Telephone #  [phone]
FAX  [phone]   Latest catalog is good thru 2000.   Really a nice
one.   www.trackofthewolf.com is their web site   email [e-mail]

Jody Carlson wrote:

> Hello the list,
>
> Can any of you tell me if Track of the Wolf has a website?
>
> I am also wondering as to the cost of their latest catalog.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Jody
> [e-mail]






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trad blanket
Date: 10 Feb 1999 09:40:54 -0800

Kirk and Meridian "Griz",

I would expect to pay about $20 for a gourd canteen, Kirk. I have grown and made
them too but it has been a few years since I got a decent crop. I once got close
to $75 per gourd in a trade for some quill work but that was "Mountain Prices"
for sure. I still figure I owe the quiller some more gourds. <G>

As to what to do for a trade blanket, I like the idea of waiting until you have
a few "Rendezvous under you belt, Griz. But what I like to see on a trade
blanket are items that I know are authentic to the Rendezvous era and not just
cute looking handy crafts made of beads, feathers and commercial leather. I
appreciate someone who has taken the time to research his "stock" to make sure
it is correct for the period. So much of what is seen at even the big National
Rendezvous these days sadly does not fit into that category and at the smaller
shoot/rendezvous the problem is even greater. It is a problem in that what folks
(especially the new people) see on trade blankets is what they perceive to be
historically correct when in reality it is more correctly tourist trap junk. It
dilutes the efforts of all who put as much into the sport as they can, trying to
be authentically representative of the real historical event. It's almost
cheating. Pretty strong words, I know but some times it needs to be said. So go
and see, research what is right, build it with care and craftsmanship, trade it
with pride.

BTW, where am I coming from? I was the "Trade Chief" for the last non NMLRA
Western Nationals in Viapon Park. I did my best to see that what was offered for
sale was period correct. Wish I could have done more. I remain.......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes & stuff...
Date: 10 Feb 1999 11:01:59 -0700

"Scott Janzen" <[e-mail]> wrote:
>Can one of y'all tell me the correct pronunciation of "Capote"? Is it
>"ka-pote" or "ka-potee"?
>This has been bugging me for a while...

Me too! Capote is originally a French word, and in Canadian fur trade
journals c.1774-1821 it is usually spelled 'capot' but sometimes 'capote'.
Today, the French pronounce capot as 'cap-oh' and capote as 'cap-ought'. The
problem is that there have been big changes in French pronunciation since
the establishment of New France, and the French-Canadians (the ones who
brought this great garment to the fur trade) kept using the old
pronunciations. This means that another possible pronunciation might be
'cap-oat',and that even 'cap-oaty' might be correct. For now, I say 'cap-oh'.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

P.S. I don't know Spanish, but Spanish & French are related languages. Is
there a Spanish word 'capote' which is adding to the confusion?
[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Track of the Wolf
Date: 10 Feb 1999 12:55:28 -0700 (MST)



Catalog $7.00  E-Mail is: [e-mail]   Web is: wwwtrackofthewolf.com

And they do answer their E-Mail



B
>
>Hello the list,
>
>Can any of you tell me if Track of the Wolf has a website?
>
>I am also wondering as to the cost of their latest catalog.
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Jody
>[e-mail]
>
>
>

--
"The Price Of Freedom
     Is Not Free"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: MtMan-List: What Period, and What is Period Correct??
Date: 10 Feb 1999 13:29:19 -0700 (MST)



What period of time do you call it, I know the Period just before the Revolution
ary War was called the Long Hunter Period, that came the war with England, we won
 became the U.S.A. the original 13 colonies became 13 States, and soon the Caroli
nas, Tennessee, & Kentucky started becoming inhabited   Buy a lot of people and t
he are started growing towns, so when this was happening that being the settlemen
t of Carolinas, Tennessee, & Kentucky.  What period of history does the Muzzle lo
ading community call this, and about when was it happening 1780's or later?

B

--
"The Price Of Freedom
     Is Not Free"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: greg n bosen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil
Date: 09 Feb 1999 17:54:09 -0500

bob,
    what is the ratio for the iron oxide to linseed oil.  or what
would be the ammounts to cover a 10x12 canvas.
Also, will this linseed oil / iron oxide combination waterproof a
relatively loose woven canvas.  how tight does the canvas need to be?


Greg Bosen


<<<<SNIP>>>>>>
>I've waterproofed canvas using linseed oil, but never used beeswax in
>it.
>The formula I used was simply boiled linseed oil and iron oxide
>powder.
>Iron oxide comes in two forms, a yellow and a rust brown. Both are
>used in
>making pottery glazes, and can be had in bulk at pottery making shops.
>The
>iron oxide acts as the filler, fills the pores in the fabric, and is
>important in the process.
<<<<<SNIP>>>>>
>Bob
>
>
>Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
>non illegitimi carborundum est
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bob Spencer)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil
Date: 10 Feb 1999 17:12:47 -0400

>        what is the ratio for the iron oxide to linseed oil.  or what
>would be the ammounts to cover a 10x12 canvas.

My cloth is 8x8, and I used 2 quarts of boiled linseed oil and 3 cups of
iron oxide. I would think you would need about 3 quarts and 4 cups, but
that's a guess.

>Also, will this linseed oil / iron oxide combination waterproof a
>relatively loose woven canvas.  how tight does the canvas need to be?

I can't really answer that, Greg. I've only ever made one cloth, and the
weave was fairly tight on that cloth. The pigment fills the weave, and I
would guess that it would do so more easily if the weave were fairly tight,
the holes in it fairly small.

If you are going to try this, let me recommend you watch Baker do it on his
video, or read his instructions in the Muzzleloader article of Mar/Apr,
1989. I read the instructions to make mine, and it was easy to understand.
also, I'm sure there are people on this list who have made them, and they
might have some good advice to offer.

Bob

Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
non illegitimi carborundum est





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
Date: 10 Feb 1999 20:07:01 -0800

I've scoured the archives of this forum and find no reference to the use
of oilcloth
for shelter, particularly <1820 and am wondering if it is an acceptable
alternative
to canvas.  Any thoughts?




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Michael Pierce <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What Period, and What is Period Correct??
Date: 10 Feb 1999 20:07:57 -0500

1780 to 1800 ---(dates may be wrong but believe this age was called the
golden age of muzzle loading---

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Douglas  Hepner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trad blanket
Date: 10 Feb 1999 20:42:20 -0600

    I would just like to agree with Lodgepole on this issue, but if you
just want to have a trade blanket, I recomend keeping the skinner's in
mind. I get frustrated when I go to "traders row" and find nothing but
tourist (flatlander) goods. I guess what I'm saying is, I tend to spend
more time looking at trade blankets with "quality" items designed with the
skinner in mind, than looking at dream catchers made for the flatlanders
fancy. I wish more traders would carry products more catered to the wants
of the re-enactor but they gotta do what makes them the most money I guess.
But the fact remains if you want people to leave traders row to shop at
your blanket, give them a reason to do so. Some of the best items I have
purchased came off of trade blankets.
    Good Luck!
"Dull Hawk"

----------
> From: Mill, Kirk <[e-mail]>
> To: '[e-mail]'
> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: trad blanket
> Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 8:28 AM
>
>
> >  I'm trying to figure out what items to have
> > available for our Local Ronnyvoo.  My wife is pretty crafty and can do
> > most
> > things fairly well. So basically whats hot, and whats not?  Any help
would
> > be
> > appreciated.   Thanks in advance.
> >
> > YMHS,
> > Wade "Griz" Smith
> > Meridian, ID
>     [Mill, Kirk]  I'm looking at the same situation. Right now I am
> hoping that I can make some cash or barter with my gourd canteens. I have
> basically an unlimited supply of dried gourds. I clean out the insides,
seal
> the insides with parrafin, sew on a support harness made from buckskin I
> tanned, and add a cork and rope strap. What do you folks think that
> something like this is worth? TIA
>     Kirk Mill
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "stitchinscot" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trad blanket
Date: 10 Feb 1999 21:18:38 -0600

I'm with lodgepole on this one.  Stay away from the real garbage but I've
personally seen a braintained neck bag get tossed in a campfire because it
was given as a shooters prize and the person ending up with it didn't
realize it's value.  Anything made by hand can always be traded 'up' for
something else as the 'pilgrim' gets more into the history and education of
'blackpowder'.   nuf said     Long John  #l677
-----Original Message-----


>    I would just like to agree with Lodgepole on this issue, but if you
>just want to have a trade blanket, I recomend keeping the skinner's in
>mind. I get frustrated when I go to "traders row" and find nothing but
>tourist (flatlander) goods. I guess what I'm saying is, I tend to spend
>more time looking at trade blankets with "quality" items designed with the
>skinner in mind, than looking at dream catchers made for the flatlanders
>fancy. I wish more traders would carry products more catered to the wants
>of the re-enactor but they gotta do what makes them the most money I guess.
>But the fact remains if you want people to leave traders row to shop at
>your blanket, give them a reason to do so. Some of the best items I have
>purchased came off of trade blankets.
>    Good Luck!
>"Dull Hawk"
>
>----------
>> From: Mill, Kirk <[e-mail]>
>> To: '[e-mail]'
>> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: trad blanket
>> Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 8:28 AM
>>
>>
>> >  I'm trying to figure out what items to have
>> > available for our Local Ronnyvoo.  My wife is pretty crafty and can do
>> > most
>> > things fairly well. So basically whats hot, and whats not?  Any help
>would
>> > be
>> > appreciated.   Thanks in advance.
>> >
>> > YMHS,
>> > Wade "Griz" Smith
>> > Meridian, ID
>> [Mill, Kirk]  I'm looking at the same situation. Right now I am
>> hoping that I can make some cash or barter with my gourd canteens. I have
>> basically an unlimited supply of dried gourds. I clean out the insides,
>seal
>> the insides with parrafin, sew on a support harness made from buckskin I
>> tanned, and add a cork and rope strap. What do you folks think that
>> something like this is worth? TIA
>> Kirk Mill
>>
>>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Roy Parker)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil
Date: 11 Feb 1999 03:56:20 GMT

On Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:12:47 -0400, you wrote:

>>Also, will this linseed oil / iron oxide combination waterproof a
>>relatively loose woven canvas.  how tight does the canvas need to be?
>
>I can't really answer that, Greg. I've only ever made one cloth, and the
>weave was fairly tight on that cloth. The pigment fills the weave, and I
>would guess that it would do so more easily if the weave were fairly =
tight,
>the holes in it fairly small.

=46WIW, I've done a single whalen and a diamond.  Got better on the
diamond (natch, it was the second one) and had the sense to take it to
the laundromat with the BIG washers and wash the canvas to remove the
sizing.  I also ran it through the dryer to pre-shrink it.  Got no
proof it repels water better, but the weave was much tighter after the
wash/dry.  Cloth for both came from the local fabric store.  YMMV, but
I'd invest a couple bucks at the laundromat if I was treating a new
fly again.


Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including =
"BS".
1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: RANDAL J BUBLITZ <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trade blanket
Date: 10 Feb 1999 20:20:00 -0800

If you are like most of us, you will go through an evolution of gear and
accoutrements.  Concentrate on making your own gear, if you're
particularly addept at something then you may have a niche in the trade
market.  I put out a blanket periodically, in order to 'garage sale' my
"pilgrim" stuff, and all the stuff my kids outgrow (all too soon).  If
you're looking to finance your hobby, make a good 'museum quality' widget
and it will sell.  Do your research,and you'll be safe.  Best of luck....
Hardtack



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: paul mueller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trad blanket
Date: 11 Feb 1999 10:12:03 -0500

To all at there that agrees that the dealers should have re-enactors in
mind and not the flatlander stuff that can be brought at wal-mart .tell
them.so dealers only carry goods that are time 1680-1840 .some carry
flatlanders stuff but it is hand made and would have been around during
that time frame.Good dealers are leaving the shows that let this junk in
and in time this will turn the event into a glorified fle market. Save
your local shows by telling the dealer if he want to carry that stuff
you will not buy from him.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: oil cloth
Date: 11 Feb 1999 09:08:56 +0100

Oil cloth before 1820?  Lewis & Clark certaihly outfitted
themselves with a bunch of it for their button-together
tents, equipment bags and tarps.
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
Date: 11 Feb 1999 08:53:32 -0800



Tom Roberts wrote:

> I've scoured the archives of this forum and find no reference to the use
> of oilcloth
> for shelter, particularly <1820 and am wondering if it is an acceptable
> alternative
> to canvas.  Any thoughts?

Tom,

The one reference I can think of was in the list of goods that L&C bought to
take on their Voyage of Discovery. I don't have such a list available to me
at this moment but I'm sure I have seen oil cloth mentioned. As to its later
use, one would wonder that it's use was discontinued after a certain date
just because it isn't commented on but that may be the case. The one thing
that causes us more trouble than anything else is finding out just how it
was made. Wish I had more to share. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Don Neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trad blanket
Date: 11 Feb 1999 13:55:05 -0600

I have had a trade blanket for around 20 years and you are right alot of
traders do sell non  period stuff. If you are going to sell stuff be
period , a fair price and nice looking. I sell blankets tomahawk, powder
horns ,knives,etc,etc. I also have a blackpowder store. If you  sell
something to some and they like it they will tell there friends. Word of
mouth is the best selling point there is.  I have been to rendezvoos
where buckskinners try to see just how hard of a time they can give you
about your stuff. So be prepared. I always point out to them  explain
what is right. Half the time they are wearing their timex watch . How
period is that.  Make your blanket orgianized just do not throw ever
thing around. Remember the customer is sometimes right.Donnie




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
Date: 11 Feb 1999 11:40:57 -0800

In my humble opinion (and that's all it is) although historically available,
and thus theoretically "acceptable" I would bet the occurance of oilcloth in
the Rocky Mountains during the fur trade was about zero. Such references to
portable shelters that I can recall mention "bowers" draped with blankets,
skins or the like (and of course, other, semi-permanent structures such as
tipis, forts, etc). It's my impression that trappers did not use a prepared
shelter, although a few of the most well-equipped expeditions (such as
Stewart's) brought simple wedge tents. With all due respect to those who
prepare and use oilcloth, I find that simple untreated canvas is lighter,
more versatile, and sheds water adequately with a few basic precautions of
rigging. On the few horse outings I've participated in, we used our pack
animal mantees as shelters. When back packing, I take a canvas, and 1-2
blankets depending on weather. If things turn really snotty, we consolidate
our stuff and make communal shelters. Trappers did the same.
Humbly submitted,
Pat Quilter

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 8:07 PM


I've scoured the archives of this forum and find no reference to the use
of oilcloth
for shelter, particularly <1820 and am wondering if it is an acceptable
alternative
to canvas.  Any thoughts?




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trad blanket
Date: 11 Feb 1999 13:45:29 -0700 (MST)



I have been reading all these comment with great interest about period correct t
rade blanket items, and also about some of the traders, and their item that are "
Wal-Mart, Tourist Trap" items.  I have never been to a Rendezvous, or any Officia
lly Sanction NMLRA event but I have been involved in the sport of muzzle loading
rifle Shooting in excess of 30 years.  Recently retire I have become more interes
ted in the sport as I have more for better use of words, free time for hobbies.
It would appear that maybe the reason that so of the items that are being sold at
 these events, are like the one member refereed to as "Wal-Mart, Tourist Trap" it
ems.  Tourist show up at Rendezvous, and the tourist don't know any better, could
 careless, or are just looking for that inexpensive souvenir to take to the grand
 kids.  Maybe the traders that see these items are just taking advantage of a sit
uation to make a buck.  I remember when driving long haul a lot of the truck stop
s out west were selling "Genuine Navajo Dream Catcher", I had never seen any of t
he real Navajo's selling the item when I made many trip across, the Navajo Reserv
ation out west, and frequent stopped at business run by the Navajo.  Than one day
 I was in this truck stop, and one of the employees were removing a perforate tag
 from back of the"Genuine Navajo Dream Catcher", that said made in Mexico??  I th
ink the best idea someone had was to boycott the Traders who are not selling any
Period Correct Items, and soon those Traders will either go away or sell item tha
t are "Period Correct".  It is the customer who is in control of what the custome
r purchases or trades for.  Not the trader, the successful Trader will see what t
he customers are buy, asking for, and provide those item for sale or trade.  Hope
 someday to attend a rendezvous, see what this is all about, appears I missing a
lot of fun.

B

"I have had a trade blanket for around 20 years and you are right a lot of
traders do sell non  period stuff. If you are going to sell stuff be
period , a fair price and nice looking. I sell blankets tomahawk, powder
horns ,knives,etc,etc. I also have a blackpowder store. If you  sell
something to some and they like it they will tell there friends. Word of
mouth is the best selling point there is." Make your blanket orgianized just do n
ot throw everthing around. Remember the customer is sometimes right."

Donnie

--
"The Price Of Freedom
     Is Not Free"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trad blanket
Date: 11 Feb 1999 17:05:52 -0500

I have on occasion told dealers and blanket traders that what they have i=
n
not in anyway period (and did it nicely...with please and a smile) items =
on
the blanket or store.  But they will not remove any item in the majority =
of
cases because the trade committee is ignorant and said it was OK or they =
do
not care what the real participants at the re-enactment really want.  Mos=
t
traders, now a days, do cater to the tourists who know nothing and do not
try in any way to educate them.  Why do so, they would loose the business.
Lets' face it, most of the events are now set up with the traders in mind
and not the campers.  We do not have to go to these events and support th=
em,
but, events seem to be getting few and far between down here in the south.
Who does educate the public????  When do trade committees finally get a b=
ack
bone and do something???  There are many people out there with the knowle=
dge
on the time period who have volunteered to help out, but are told no or
ignored because the Rendezvous committee wants more traders for the touri=
st
to come out and see.  The period camper is not as exciting as a gussyed u=
p
trading post and tourist are not too excited about seeing us cook our din=
er
or lunch.  Of course I have seen some real exciting camps that have kept =
us
all occupied by visual sights of wonder.   Those are other stories for a
long winter camp.
We are seeing in the South, a large influx of Seminole and Creek material.
That would be OK, but the material is very documented at 1920s' on appliq=
u=E9
work.  But one trader told me that he sold the Seminole outfits because h=
is
mother did such a nice job of sewing.  Even shown documentation of the ti=
me
period did not stop the selling of the materials because they are Indian =
and
no one wanted to get the trader mad.  THIS on this sight is vocal on its'
ideas of period, knowledgeable on details of what was brought in and made=
,
and is willing to learn to upgrade, change and make a better impression f=
or
themselves and others.  But today's "camper" is a weekend warrior and in
most cases only interested in having a good time.  We all know you can ha=
ve
a hell of a great time and still be in budget and look great.
I have a horrible saying that I use at many events I go too,
"if it is made of fur, feathers, leather or beads, it is legal".  That is
the credo that most committees live by and most blanket traders.  How man=
y
dream catchers and mandelas do you see in traders stores and blankets.  I
have seen too many.
Geeee, I enjoyed getting that off my chest.   (Anyone want to come and ea=
t a
strawberry??)


Linda Holley

paul mueller wrote:

> To all at there that agrees that the dealers should have re-enactors in
> mind and not the flatlander stuff that can be brought at wal-mart .tell
> them.so dealers only carry goods that are time 1680-1840 .some carry
> flatlanders stuff but it is hand made and would have been around during
> that time frame.Good dealers are leaving the shows that let this junk i=
n
> and in time this will turn the event into a glorified fle market. Save
> your local shows by telling the dealer if he want to carry that stuff
> you will not buy from him.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
Date: 11 Feb 1999 19:03:59 -0800

Well, that's kind of what I was thinking also.  I had an idea that L&C had used
oilcloth but had not seen any later references.  I expect that I will continue
to pursue my first path which is a simple square of light canvas with some
sewn-on loops that can be configured as a diamond, a fly, an A-frame over a
rope, a lean-to, and who knows what else a bit of creative rigging might make.
I'm wondering about the right stuff to sew it with.  I'm concerned that ordinary
cotton thread won't withstand much outdoor use.  I have some rather heavy waxed
linen cord but the needle necessary to use that stuff will leave pretty big
holes. Any ideas?

Tom



Pat Quilter wrote:

> In my humble opinion (and that's all it is) although historically available,
> and thus theoretically "acceptable" I would bet the occurance of oilcloth in
> the Rocky Mountains during the fur trade was about zero. Such references to
> portable shelters that I can recall mention "bowers" draped with blankets,
> skins or the like (and of course, other, semi-permanent structures such as
> tipis, forts, etc). It's my impression that trappers did not use a prepared
> shelter, although a few of the most well-equipped expeditions (such as
> Stewart's) brought simple wedge tents. With all due respect to those who
> prepare and use oilcloth, I find that simple untreated canvas is lighter,
> more versatile, and sheds water adequately with a few basic precautions of
> rigging. On the few horse outings I've participated in, we used our pack
> animal mantees as shelters. When back packing, I take a canvas, and 1-2
> blankets depending on weather. If things turn really snotty, we consolidate
> our stuff and make communal shelters. Trappers did the same.
> Humbly submitted,
> Pat Quilter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Roberts [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 8:07 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
>
> I've scoured the archives of this forum and find no reference to the use
> of oilcloth
> for shelter, particularly <1820 and am wondering if it is an acceptable
> alternative
> to canvas.  Any thoughts?




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
Date: 11 Feb 1999 16:24:42 -0800

Unless you use a glover's needle (with cutting edges) the thick needle and
thread should just push aside the fibers, leaving a fairly tight seal. Your
tie straps will naturally be sewn along a short distance to spread the
strain evenly. You will get some drippage at these points, but only a few
drops. I assume you have seen the trick where you take a small rock or
musket ball, poke it into the cloth forming a little pouch, and tie a cord
or thong firmly around the "neck" to use as tie points. I do this and use a
plain old canvas drop cloth with no loops etc. It takes a few minutes extra
at the camp, but you can put the ties anywhere you want along the edges or
in the middle. It sounds like you're on the right track overall.
Pat Quilter


-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 1999 7:04 PM


Well, that's kind of what I was thinking also.  I had an idea that L&C had
used
oilcloth but had not seen any later references.  I expect that I will
continue
to pursue my first path which is a simple square of light canvas with some
sewn-on loops that can be configured as a diamond, a fly, an A-frame over a
rope, a lean-to, and who knows what else a bit of creative rigging might
make.
I'm wondering about the right stuff to sew it with.  I'm concerned that
ordinary
cotton thread won't withstand much outdoor use.  I have some rather heavy
waxed
linen cord but the needle necessary to use that stuff will leave pretty big
holes. Any ideas?

Tom



Pat Quilter wrote:

> In my humble opinion (and that's all it is) although historically
available,
> and thus theoretically "acceptable" I would bet the occurance of oilcloth
in
> the Rocky Mountains during the fur trade was about zero. Such references
to
> portable shelters that I can recall mention "bowers" draped with blankets,
> skins or the like (and of course, other, semi-permanent structures such as
> tipis, forts, etc). It's my impression that trappers did not use a
prepared
> shelter, although a few of the most well-equipped expeditions (such as
> Stewart's) brought simple wedge tents. With all due respect to those who
> prepare and use oilcloth, I find that simple untreated canvas is lighter,
> more versatile, and sheds water adequately with a few basic precautions of
> rigging. On the few horse outings I've participated in, we used our pack
> animal mantees as shelters. When back packing, I take a canvas, and 1-2
> blankets depending on weather. If things turn really snotty, we
consolidate
> our stuff and make communal shelters. Trappers did the same.
> Humbly submitted,
> Pat Quilter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Roberts [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 8:07 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
>
> I've scoured the archives of this forum and find no reference to the use
> of oilcloth
> for shelter, particularly <1820 and am wondering if it is an acceptable
> alternative
> to canvas.  Any thoughts?




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matt and Sarah Mitchell <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Magic trick
Date: 11 Feb 1999 17:30:05 -0800

I thought you might enjoy a good magic trick.

take a look at this

http://www3.mcps.k12.md.us/users/rsfay/magic/index.html

Have fun!!

"Pockets"
A.K.A.
Matt Mitchell
Palouse Hills Muzzleloaders
Moscow, Idaho
[e-mail]

  "They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist---"
  General John B. Sedgwick's last words, 1864





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matt and Sarah Mitchell <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: SORRY SORRY SORRY
Date: 11 Feb 1999 17:32:01 -0800

I have to appologize about the last post from me about the magic trick.
I meant to send that to someone else. Please disregard!!!
Very Sorry!!


"Pockets"
A.K.A.
Matt Mitchell
Palouse Hills Muzzleloaders
Moscow, Idaho
[e-mail]

  "They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist---"
  General John B. Sedgwick's last words, 1864





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes & stuff...
Date: 11 Feb 1999 21:01:55 -0600



>Your humble & obedient servant,
>Angela Gottfred
>
>P.S. I don't know Spanish, but Spanish & French are related languages. Is
>there a Spanish word 'capote' which is adding to the confusion?
>[e-mail]

Angela, and friends,
There is a Spanish word capote (pron. "ca-po-tay"), which means "cape".
There was an old pre-Texas Republic stock farm in east Texas (founded in
1834 from a Mex. land grant) called El Capote on the Guadalupe River, named
for a cape-shaped land formations nearby.  I researched the farm, and wrote
a history and furnishing plan for a ca. 1840 log structure from the farm,
which now resides at the Ranching Heritage Center here in Lubbock.  I still
get calls and letters from descendents of its founders with fresh
information.

Vaya con Dios, compadres!
HBC

****************************************
Henry B. Crawford    Box 43191
Curator of History    Museum of Texas Tech University
[e-mail]    Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
806/742-2442     FAX [phone]
              Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because It's There  ******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Clean up
Date: 11 Feb 1999 20:19:27 -0700

I like the last messages saying we ought to clean up the traders.  I have
been hearing that as well as cleaning up the National Rendezvous in
general for some time now, and from quite a few people.  That is something I
really think we need to the point that there are quite a few alternate vous
in the planning to run at the same time and vicinity as some vous that
have been in place for many years.






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Laurel huber <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
Date: 11 Feb 1999 19:32:06 -0800

Most waxed linen thread is about five strand.  For canvas work that's about right,
especially if you are making seams  (two or three thicknesses of material) or adding
reenforcing at the corners (up to six thicknesses of fabric).  For shirting or
similar thickness fabric, unwind the thread to three strands and use a smaller
needle.  Also, if you're making a square to use as a "fly", don't sew on loops.
Just make a 5/8" strap, fold it in the middle and attach it to the fly at the fold
(a reenforcement at this point is good if you're not on a seam.).  This gives you
greater options when you set-up.  Sometimes you need to tie that connection instead
of staking it out.

Tom Roberts wrote:

> Well, that's kind of what I was thinking also.  I had an idea that L&C had used
> oilcloth but had not seen any later references.  I expect that I will continue
> to pursue my first path which is a simple square of light canvas with some
> sewn-on loops that can be configured as a diamond, a fly, an A-frame over a
> rope, a lean-to, and who knows what else a bit of creative rigging might make.
> I'm wondering about the right stuff to sew it with.  I'm concerned that ordinary
> cotton thread won't withstand much outdoor use.  I have some rather heavy waxed
> linen cord but the needle necessary to use that stuff will leave pretty big
> holes. Any ideas?
>
> Tom
>
> Pat Quilter wrote:
>
> > In my humble opinion (and that's all it is) although historically available,
> > and thus theoretically "acceptable" I would bet the occurance of oilcloth in
> > the Rocky Mountains during the fur trade was about zero. Such references to
> > portable shelters that I can recall mention "bowers" draped with blankets,
> > skins or the like (and of course, other, semi-permanent structures such as
> > tipis, forts, etc). It's my impression that trappers did not use a prepared
> > shelter, although a few of the most well-equipped expeditions (such as
> > Stewart's) brought simple wedge tents. With all due respect to those who
> > prepare and use oilcloth, I find that simple untreated canvas is lighter,
> > more versatile, and sheds water adequately with a few basic precautions of
> > rigging. On the few horse outings I've participated in, we used our pack
> > animal mantees as shelters. When back packing, I take a canvas, and 1-2
> > blankets depending on weather. If things turn really snotty, we consolidate
> > our stuff and make communal shelters. Trappers did the same.
> > Humbly submitted,
> > Pat Quilter
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Tom Roberts [mailto:[e-mail]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 8:07 PM
> > To: [e-mail]
> > Subject: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
> >
> > I've scoured the archives of this forum and find no reference to the use
> > of oilcloth
> > for shelter, particularly <1820 and am wondering if it is an acceptable
> > alternative
> > to canvas.  Any thoughts?






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes & stuff...
Date: 11 Feb 1999 22:50:47 -0500

"Henry B. Crawford" wrote:
>
> >Your humble & obedient servant,
> >Angela Gottfred
> >
> >P.S. I don't know Spanish, but Spanish & French are related languages. Is
> >there a Spanish word 'capote' which is adding to the confusion?
> >[e-mail]
>
> Angela, and friends,
> There is a Spanish word capote (pron. "ca-po-tay"), which means "cape".
> There was an old pre-Texas Republic stock farm in east Texas (founded in
> 1834 from a Mex. land grant) called El Capote on the Guadalupe River, named
> for a cape-shaped land formations nearby.  I researched the farm, and wrote
> a history and furnishing plan for a ca. 1840 log structure from the farm,
> which now resides at the Ranching Heritage Center here in Lubbock.  I still
> get calls and letters from descendents of its founders with fresh
> information.

Interesting!  'Didn't know about this nor TX Tech Univ. there, even
though my folks live there now.

Fred

--
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
http://www.best.com/~capn/thunder/willy.htm



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "G. Pedro Kinner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: SORRY SORRY SORRY
Date: 11 Feb 1999 20:03:17 -0800

Thought it was great..  Pedro in Tahoe I forwarded it to everyone I know



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: What Period, and What is Period Correct??  This is a long one,
Date: 11 Feb 1999 22:33:39 -0600


>Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:29:19 -0700 (MST)
>From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
>Subject: MtMan-List: What Period, and What is Period Correct??
>
>What period of time do you call it, I know the Period just before the
>Revolution
>ary War was called the Long Hunter Period, that came the war with England,
>we won
> became the U.S.A. the original 13 colonies became 13 States, and soon the
>Caroli-
>nas, Tennessee, & Kentucky started becoming inhabited   Buy a lot of
>people and t
>he are started growing towns, so when this was happening that being the
>settlemen
>t of Carolinas, Tennessee, & Kentucky.  What period of history does the
>Muzzle lo
>ading community call this, and about when was it happening 1780's or later?
>
>B

We historians like to look at things in the broadest possible context
because history exists not in a vaccuum, but in a network of interrelated
events, shaped by forces and personalities seemingly far removed from the
occurrances closer to home.  For me, "period" in the context of this
listserv means the classic fur trade period.   Defined, "fur trade" is the
era when the harvesting of furs and hides for commercial profit was a
mainstay of revenue for individuals, corporations, and nations alike, and
when the foundations of some of our most impressive family fortunes are
established (Astors, Chouteaus, both of which are very much around)
Historians disagree on the dates by which the period is defined, and it's a
bit difficult for me, not being a scholar of Canadian history (which must
be included in any discussion of the North American fur trade.  To take a
stab, I might say either the year 1670, when the Hudsons Bay Company was
chartered, or 1763, at the end of the Seven Years War (F&I for Americans)
which firmly established economic and political spheres of influence of the
British (in which I include Colonial Americans) and the French in North
America.  The Spanish (before 1821) engaged in a fur trade in their
northern territories (the American Southwest), but never on the scale of
the French, British, and Americans, because they were having a difficult
time just holding on to their possessions world wide.  The 17th and 18th
centuries for the Spanish were years of acute economic and political
decline.

The end of the American fur trade is likewise debatable.  Some argue that
the fur trade never really ended (I'm inclined to agree), but for our
purposes here, I prefer to call it somewhere in the early to mid 1850s,
which rightfully includes the era of the buffalo robe trading post.  The
robe trade, an integral part of the western fur trade scene, seemed to peak
at Fort Union on the Missouri River in the decade just prior to the Civil
War.  (BTW, I think the buffalo robe trading post era begins in 1807 with
the establishment of Fort Lisa on the Missouri.)  I am not alone in this
assessment.

Having said that, there are some sub-periods which are defined, such as the
"Rocky Mountain Fur Trade era, beginning about 1806 when Colter leaves the
Lewis and Clark expedition and becomes a full time Rocky Mountain trapper
and trader.  Many use 1840 as a cut off date because that was the last year
of the Rocky Mountain Rendezvous, although beaver trapping certainly went
beyond that year.  I prefer not to call that year the end of the RMFT era,
because 1840 was merely when the Fur Trading companies abandoned one method
of trading in favor of another.  The Rendezvous was a failed venture,
although it took them 16 years to figure out that they weren't really
making acceptable profits.  The practice of freighting loads of goods deep
into the mountains to trade simply wasn't very practical.  After 1840, fur
trade corporate leaders decided to go back to the system which worked best,
the trading post, where the rivers could be utilized for relatively
inexpensive transport  especially since by this time, steamboats were a
common sight on the river.  By 1840, fur trade freighting overland from St
Louis was unnecessary.  In the Southwest and Southern Plains, the trading
post had always been the primary vehicle of the fur trade, and was not
abandoned for the rendezvous, although many trappers and traders associated
with the Southwest fur trade frequented the annual rendezvous (Kit Carson,
Ewing Young, Louis Vasquez, for example).

I think to use the year 1840 as an arbitrary cut off date for the "fur
trade" is an error, because there is still a viable fur trade after that
date, and by cutting off at 1840, one ignores some of the best post fur
trading centers like Taos, Santa Fe, Bents Fort, and Fort Union.

I think people use 1840 because that is the end of the Rebndezvous era,
however, if one was to be truly authentic to the rendezvous era, then one
should insist on limiting clothing and equipment to the era between 1825
and 1840.  Period.  Otherwise, recognize the historical truth, that 1840
represents, for a handful of fur trade executives,  merely a shift in the
ways of doing business, not the end of an entire industry.

Just as an aside, for those who may not be aware (fur trade history
veterans, please bear with me) the classic image of a buckskin-clad, free
spirited mountain man, going his own way, enjoying an idyllic, solitary
existance is pure myth.  The typical Rocky Mountain fur trapper was a
corporate employee, a laborer, if you will; the low man on a very tall
totem pole, had a fairly low standard of living, and was very much at the
mercy of corporate investors who for the most part never saw, nor never
intended to see the Rocky Mountains.  By and large, his ultimate superiors
were corporate executives, and investors (merchants, mill and factory
owners, and bankers).  He was, by and large, very much like a millworker in
a large steel plant, and could no more influence company policy that a
clerk in a mailroom.  Free trappers, in many ways had it even worse,
because, although they did not have superiors to answer to, they were on
their own, and didn't have the economic protection of company employment,
such as it was, and had to outfit himself and pay all of his own expenses.
The free trapper was at the mercy of the fur market, and endured incredibly
stiff competition from organized fur companies.  Historically speaking, the
mountain man was not a particularly romantic figure in his own time and
place, (until he wrote his memoirs)  As stated in Bob Utley's book, the
mountain man contributed significantly to the development of the
trans-Mississippi West, but as Bob, and Fred Gowans, I think, would admit,
that was all inadvertant.  He was merely doing his job, applying skills and
knowledge learned from years of "being there," and used those skills to
pursue other complimentary careers, like guiding, freighting, and
negotiating with the tribes, after trapping lost its attraction for him.

See, I told you we like to look at the big picture.

Commentary welcomed, but since I'm on digest, don't expect an immediate
reply.  I've been a Fur Trade reenactor and 'skinner for over 18 years.  I
guess as a professional historian I can put the mountain man and the fur
trade in their proper historical perspectives and as a 'skinner I can get
away with it.  :-)  I expect this to be ripped to shreads.  Had I been
afraid of that I never would have written it.  If anyone would like to
concur or refute my assessments, please do.  Let's share our collective
knowledge.  Maybe I missed something.

Till then, Cheers,
HBC

****************************************
Henry B. Crawford    Box 43191
Curator of History    Museum of Texas Tech University
[e-mail]    Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
806/742-2442     FAX [phone]
              Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because It's There  ******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ted A Hart <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes & stuff...
Date: 12 Feb 1999 02:21:03 EST

 ca. 1840 log structure from the
>farm,
>> which now resides at the Ranching Heritage Center here in Lubbock.
>I still
>> get calls and letters from descendents of its founders with fresh
>> information.

I just found out that there is a company that does "rescue" sort of thing
with old historic log cabins along with pier and beam houses out in
Fredericksburg.  If interested please post on this site and I'll be glad
to put the website on here.

Ted

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: What Period, and What is Period Correct??  This is a long one,folks
Date: 12 Feb 1999 12:46:05 EST


In a message dated 2/11/99 8:41:48 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< The typical Rocky Mountain fur trapper was a
corporate employee, a laborer, if you will; the low man on a very tall
totem pole, had a fairly low standard of living, and was very much at the
mercy of corporate investors who for the most part never saw, nor never
intended to see the Rocky Mountains.>>

Ah, but what a tough individual he was.  And what a great  environment he
lived in for the most part.  Clean, pure, no roads , no fences, no poles stuck
in the ground, fish and game abounding in many areas.  Many of these self
reliant guys would not return to the 'States' for love or money.  I believe
they loved their life. While I'm sure some of them were rotters, I admire the
'mountain man'.
        Dick



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rick Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: trade blanket
Date: 12 Feb 1999 11:27:43 +0000


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I'll wade in on this topic.  I used to go to rendezvous and find the =
'remotest' camping spot available.  I'd visit with a few friends and =
that was it.  One year we decided to set out a trade blanket.  It was a =
very positive experience.  I met more people, had some of the best =
discussions and enjoyed myself more at that event than those other go =
hide events.  Now as far as contents.  What I like to find myself are =
usually raw materials.  I like to make most things myself, so I like to =
look for period materials.  Along with everyone else I like authentic =
and well crafted plunder.  The gourd canteens sound like an example of =
this but try just some gourds.....=20
  Good Luck
    Rick

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Enamel Cookware and dishes
Date: 12 Feb 1999 17:07:51 EST

I see a lot of enamel cookware at rendezvous and have been told it is dated to
1840.  At others I have been to they say it isn't to be seen.  Just what is
the proper date for enamel dishes and cookware?  If it was around, just how
far west?

                            TrapRJoe



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
Date: 12 Feb 1999 17:25:02 -0500

There is a water proofing treatment I have used called COTTON PROOF from
Nikwax.  It is made especially for waterproofing cotton canvas tents.  You
can mix it and brush it on, or you can put it in the washing machine for
clothing such as Hunting Frocks, etc...   For my "tarp", I used a heavy
painters drop cloth cut to a 10x10 and had the edges "seamed" to prevent
raveling.  I added a few gromets in each corner and the center, and about
every 3 feet along each side.  The waterproofing works great, and so does
the tarp...

Addison Miller

-----Original Message-----


>Unless you use a glover's needle (with cutting edges) the thick needle and
>thread should just push aside the fibers, leaving a fairly tight seal. Your
>tie straps will naturally be sewn along a short distance to spread the
>strain evenly. You will get some drippage at these points, but only a few
>drops. I assume you have seen the trick where you take a small rock or
>musket ball, poke it into the cloth forming a little pouch, and tie a cord
>or thong firmly around the "neck" to use as tie points. I do this and use a
>plain old canvas drop cloth with no loops etc. It takes a few minutes extra
>at the camp, but you can put the ties anywhere you want along the edges or
>in the middle. It sounds like you're on the right track overall.
>Pat Quilter
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Tom Roberts [mailto:[e-mail]]
>Sent: Thursday, February 11, 1999 7:04 PM
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
>
>
>Well, that's kind of what I was thinking also.  I had an idea that L&C had
>used
>oilcloth but had not seen any later references.  I expect that I will
>continue
>to pursue my first path which is a simple square of light canvas with some
>sewn-on loops that can be configured as a diamond, a fly, an A-frame over a
>rope, a lean-to, and who knows what else a bit of creative rigging might
>make.
>I'm wondering about the right stuff to sew it with.  I'm concerned that
>ordinary
>cotton thread won't withstand much outdoor use.  I have some rather heavy
>waxed
>linen cord but the needle necessary to use that stuff will leave pretty big
>holes. Any ideas?
>
>Tom
>
>
>
>Pat Quilter wrote:
>
>> In my humble opinion (and that's all it is) although historically
>available,
>> and thus theoretically "acceptable" I would bet the occurance of oilcloth
>in
>> the Rocky Mountains during the fur trade was about zero. Such references
>to
>> portable shelters that I can recall mention "bowers" draped with
blankets,
>> skins or the like (and of course, other, semi-permanent structures such
as
>> tipis, forts, etc). It's my impression that trappers did not use a
>prepared
>> shelter, although a few of the most well-equipped expeditions (such as
>> Stewart's) brought simple wedge tents. With all due respect to those who
>> prepare and use oilcloth, I find that simple untreated canvas is lighter,
>> more versatile, and sheds water adequately with a few basic precautions
of
>> rigging. On the few horse outings I've participated in, we used our pack
>> animal mantees as shelters. When back packing, I take a canvas, and 1-2
>> blankets depending on weather. If things turn really snotty, we
>consolidate
>> our stuff and make communal shelters. Trappers did the same.
>> Humbly submitted,
>> Pat Quilter
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Tom Roberts [mailto:[e-mail]]
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 8:07 PM
>> To: [e-mail]
>> Subject: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
>>
>> I've scoured the archives of this forum and find no reference to the use
>> of oilcloth
>> for shelter, particularly <1820 and am wondering if it is an acceptable
>> alternative
>> to canvas.  Any thoughts?
>
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: MtMan-List: The Electronic Trader Hide, or Electronic Rendezvous.
Date: 12 Feb 1999 15:53:54 -0700 (MST)



There is now a place on the net where you can now post items that are Traditiona
l Muzzle Loading item, no Inline Stuff please, for sale or trade.

Carl Semencic, has agreed to allow this electronic trading on his
Traditional Muzzle Loading Board, at:  http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/messageboard/m
bs.cgi/mb106703  (Bookmark this site for future reference.)

Please before you post any item For Sale, or Trade Please Read Carl's, comments a
bout  "Re: NEW Idea" on the Traditional Muzzle Loading Board.  His rules simple r
ules to Traders.

As I think it was great of Carl to allow this Trading Hide to be part of his Mess
age Board.

FYI.

B

--
"The Price Of Freedom
     Is Not Free"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Salvatore P. Patti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Electronic Trader Hide, or Electronic Rendezvous.
Date: 12 Feb 1999 18:50:54 -0500

the web address seems to be down, I am new and would like to say Hello to
everyone.. My name is Salvatore Please just call me Sal. I'm just starting
to get into all this stuff and I'm looking for a place near New Jersey to
buy some Hides...( all types .. with and without hair )
I want to start to make Buckskin shirts and pants, Moc's and Rifle cases...
If anyone know of a place or would like to send me some prices of Hides..
E~Mail me at ( [e-mail] ). Thank you in advance.

-----Original Message-----


>
>
>There is now a place on the net where you can now post items that are
Traditiona
>l Muzzle Loading item, no Inline Stuff please, for sale or trade.
>
>Carl Semencic, has agreed to allow this electronic trading on his
>Traditional Muzzle Loading Board, at:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/messageboard/m
>bs.cgi/mb106703  (Bookmark this site for future reference.)
>
>Please before you post any item For Sale, or Trade Please Read Carl's,
comments a
>bout  "Re: NEW Idea" on the Traditional Muzzle Loading Board.  His rules
simple r
>ules to Traders.
>
>As I think it was great of Carl to allow this Trading Hide to be part of
his Mess
>age Board.
>
>FYI.
>
>B
>
>--
>"The Price Of Freedom
>     Is Not Free"




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rick Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
Date: 12 Feb 1999 17:15:13 +0000


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Henry,
While I can concur with many of your points, I have to differ with some. =
 "I" feel the death of the Rendezvous and 'BEAVER' trapping endeavors in =
the Rocky Mountains was due to two primary reasons.  First, the change =
of fashion brought on by the "NEW " popularity of silk hats rather than =
the beaver that had been so fashionable for decades previous.  By 1840 =
the price per pound of beaver fur had plummetted from its high just a =
few short years earlier.  Second, with so many people after the same =
commodity (BEAVER), it was not long before significant sections of the =
Rockies were denuded of beaver much as the Pacific West Coast had been =
depleted of sea otter. (Astors and many Russian fortunes).  By the =
1860's we see the 'robe trade' making significant depletions in the =
bison herds eventually bring this industry to it's demise.  Is this the =
fur trade?  Yes in it's broadest definition but very distinct from the =
Rocky Mountain fur trade.

Another question raised was the image of the free trapper vs the =
'company' man.  In reading biographies of so many of these mountain men, =
I'm struck with how many different companies and trapping associations =
in which these individuals participated.  Yes, Ashley and Andrew became =
Ashley and Smith, then Smith, Sublette and Jackson and then Sublette and =
Fitzpatrick with Jim and others thrown in there somewhere and this is =
just Rocky Mtn Fur Co..  To and from every Rendezvous, there were =
numerous comings and goings to and from civilization.  We see the =
upstarts like Wyeth and  Bonneville  jumping in the middle.  My point =
is, many of these so called companies were no more than many of the =
trappers themselves making companies of THEMSELVES.  While seed monies =
were definitely needed for many of these upstarts, they were managed and =
staffed by those found in the Mountains.  So, free trapper vs company =
man, I didn't dispute that most MAY have been company men but I have a =
harder time with the Steel Mill analogy.  Yes, there is AFC, HBC and a =
few others, but we also see cross employment in these concerns.  I guess =
what I'm getting at is that there was a great deal of freedom for these =
men. =20

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From: "Salvatore P. Patti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
Date: 12 Feb 1999 19:59:52 -0500

Rick,
What you wrote makes a lot of senses. But the real fall of the fur traders
was the mass killing of the animals that made the business grow then fall.
If more trappers toke the time and managed the animals the way the Indians
did, There would have been more animals and the business would have lasted a
hell of a lot longer then it did... Or that is just the way I feel??? I feel
to manage the animal is more important the to make a buck... Just like I
think 200lbs of meat is way better then a 8+ point rack on a Deer....

        The so called Hunters are nothing more then killers of a Great and
noble beast ( Deer, Buffalo, Elk, Caribou, Bear and Beaver ). Indians toke
what they needed not what they wanted... If I'm wrong in this thinking I'm
truly Sorry.... I know I'm know back in the time of the Mountain men/
Trapper, but that is the way I think. thank you for your time in reading
this ....
                                Sal______
-----Original Message-----


Henry,
While I can concur with many of your points, I have to differ with some.
"I" feel the death of the Rendezvous and 'BEAVER' trapping endeavors in the
Rocky Mountains was due to two primary reasons.  First, the change of
fashion brought on by the "NEW " popularity of silk hats rather than the
beaver that had been so fashionable for decades previous.  By 1840 the price
per pound of beaver fur had plummetted from its high just a few short years
earlier.  Second, with so many people after the same commodity (BEAVER), it
was not long before significant sections of the Rockies were denuded of
beaver much as the Pacific West Coast had been depleted of sea otter.
(Astors and many Russian fortunes).  By the 1860's we see the 'robe trade'
making significant depletions in the bison herds eventually bring this
industry to it's demise.  Is this the fur trade?  Yes in it's broadest
definition but very distinct from the Rocky Mountain fur trade.

Another question raised was the image of the free trapper vs the 'company'
man.  In reading biographies of so many of these mountain men, I'm struck
with how many different companies and trapping associations in which these
individuals participated.  Yes, Ashley and Andrew became Ashley and Smith,
then Smith, Sublette and Jackson and then Sublette and Fitzpatrick with Jim
and others thrown in there somewhere and this is just Rocky Mtn Fur Co..  To
and from every Rendezvous, there were numerous comings and goings to and
from civilization.  We see the upstarts like Wyeth and  Bonneville  jumping
in the middle.  My point is, many of these so called companies were no more
than many of the trappers themselves making companies of THEMSELVES.  While
seed monies were definitely needed for many of these upstarts, they were
managed and staffed by those found in the Mountains.  So, free trapper vs
company man, I didn't dispute that most MAY have been company men but I have
a harder time with the Steel Mill analogy.  Yes, there is AFC, HBC and a few
others, but we also see cross employment in these concerns.  I guess what
I'm getting at is that there was a great deal of freedom for these men.





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Trade blanket items
Date: 12 Feb 1999 19:14:14 -0600



> >I appreciate someone who has taken the time to research his "stock" to make sure
> >it is correct for the period. So much of what is seen at even the big National
> >Rendezvous these days sadly does not fit into that category and at the smaller
> >shoot/rendezvous the problem is even greater. It is a problem in that what folks
> >(especially the new people) see on trade blankets is what they perceive to be
> >historically correct when in reality it is more correctly tourist trap junk. It
> >dilutes the efforts of all who put as much into the sport as they can, trying to
> >be authentically representative of the real historical event. It's almost
> >cheating. Pretty strong words, I know but some times it needs to be said. So go
> >and see, research what is right, build it with care and craftsmanship, trade it
> >with pride.
>
> >BTW, where am I coming from? I was the "Trade Chief" for the last non NMLRA
> >Western Nationals in Viapon Park. I did my best to see that what was offered for
> >sale was period correct. Wish I could have done more. I remain.......
>

Capt. Lahti
    I truly feel your pain. ;-)  As a member of the authenticity committee for a
couple
of Colonial trade fairs, I can relate  to what you are talking about. Even when
attending
"invitation only" trade fairs, some traders seem to think the rules don't apply to
them when
they display non period items.  I have ask some traders to remove certain non period
items only to have those items put back on display as soon as I walked around the
corner.
The second time the request is changed into an order with the threat of confiscation
of
the "contraband" until such time as that trader left the premises.  One confiscation
is usually
enough to make the point. I want to make it clear that the confiscated item is
returned
before the trader leaves the encampment.

This can only be done when "rules of trade" are defined in the application sent to
the
traders specifying what is considered period, and what is not allowed. I always carry

a copy of "rules of trade" to settle any disputes, or to clarify any questions by
"confused"
traders, and as always, the rules apply equally to everyone.

YHOS
J.D.

P.S.  The time period after the French War, and before the Rev War is divided into
two "war" periods, i.e. Pontiac's War, 1762-1763, and Dunmore's War, 1774, but the
time frame of 1761-1775  is usually referred to as the Late Colonial Period.





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "LEWIS K RAPER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Enamel Cookware and dishes
Date: 12 Feb 1999 20:15:26 -0500

According to Lehman's Hardware in Kidron OH, Enamel "Granny" Ware came in
after the war of the northern aggression
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, February 12, 1999 5:07 PM


>I see a lot of enamel cookware at rendezvous and have been told it is dated
to
>1840.  At others I have been to they say it isn't to be seen.  Just what is
>the proper date for enamel dishes and cookware?  If it was around, just how
>far west?
>
> TrapRJoe
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Trade blanket items
Date: 12 Feb 1999 20:45:40 EST

In a message dated 99-02-12 20:19:11 EST, you write:

>     I truly feel your pain. ;-)  As a member of the authenticity committee
> for a couple of Colonial trade fairs, I can relate  to what you are talking
about.
>Even when attending "invitation only" trade fairs, some traders seem to think
the
> rules don't apply to them when they display non period items.

Our event is an "invitation only" public event.  We limit it to 90 camps, with
a target of 40% sutlers and food vendors and 60% demonstrators and blanket
traders.  The trade committee consists of  3 sutlers, chosen by the Booshway,
because of their authentic wares and their willingness to accept the job.

Once selected, they answer to no one, their decision is final, they only give
one warning, and their decisions cannot even be over-ridden by the Booshway.
If the person who is given the warning chooses to ignore it, he is booted from
the event.  Those who have marginal items are placed at the bottom of the
invitation list, and someone on the waiting list is given preference the
following year.  It only took a couple of years to get the event cleaned up,
and we seldom have any problems now.  It is a matter of the participants
policing their own flock, and they have gained the respect of their peers in
doing so.

OldFox



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Salvatore P. Patti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Rendezvous
Date: 12 Feb 1999 21:15:20 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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Does anyone know of any Rendezvous on the East Coast??? ( New York, =
Pennsylvania, New Jersey )=20
Peace Be With You Always!

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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DAmaze size=3D6>Does anyone know of =
any=20
Rendezvous on the East Coast??? ( New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey )=20
</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DAmaze size=3D6>Peace Be With You=20
Always!</FONT></EM></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: Gary Farabee <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
Date: 12 Feb 1999 19:47:49 -0700

Laurel huber wrote:
>
> Most waxed linen thread is about five strand.  For canvas work that's about right,
> especially if you are making seams  (two or three thicknesses of material) or adding
> reenforcing at the corners (up to six thicknesses of fabric).  For shirting or
> similar thickness fabric, unwind the thread to three strands and use a smaller
> needle.  Also, if you're making a square to use as a "fly", don't sew on loops.
> Just make a 5/8" strap, fold it in the middle and attach it to the fly at the fold
> (a reenforcement at this point is good if you're not on a seam.).  This gives you
> greater options when you set-up.  Sometimes you need to tie that connection instead
> of staking it out.
>
> Tom Roberts wrote:
>
> > Well, that's kind of what I was thinking also.  I had an idea that L&C had used
> > oilcloth but had not seen any later references.  I expect that I will continue
> > to pursue my first path which is a simple square of light canvas with some
> > sewn-on loops that can be configured as a diamond, a fly, an A-frame over a
> > rope, a lean-to, and who knows what else a bit of creative rigging might make.
> > I'm wondering about the right stuff to sew it with.  I'm concerned that ordinary
> > cotton thread won't withstand much outdoor use.  I have some rather heavy waxed
> > linen cord but the needle necessary to use that stuff will leave pretty big
> > holes. Any ideas?
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > Pat Quilter wrote:
> >
> > > In my humble opinion (and that's all it is) although historically available,
> > > and thus theoretically "acceptable" I would bet the occurance of oilcloth in
> > > the Rocky Mountains during the fur trade was about zero. Such references to
> > > portable shelters that I can recall mention "bowers" draped with blankets,
> > > skins or the like (and of course, other, semi-permanent structures such as
> > > tipis, forts, etc). It's my impression that trappers did not use a prepared
> > > shelter, although a few of the most well-equipped expeditions (such as
> > > Stewart's) brought simple wedge tents. With all due respect to those who
> > > prepare and use oilcloth, I find that simple untreated canvas is lighter,
> > > more versatile, and sheds water adequately with a few basic precautions of
> > > rigging. On the few horse outings I've participated in, we used our pack
> > > animal mantees as shelters. When back packing, I take a canvas, and 1-2
> > > blankets depending on weather. If things turn really snotty, we consolidate
> > > our stuff and make communal shelters. Trappers did the same.
> > > Humbly submitted,
> > > Pat Quilter
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Tom Roberts [mailto:[e-mail]]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 8:07 PM
> > > To: [e-mail]
> > > Subject: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
> > >
> > > I've scoured the archives of this forum and find no reference to the use
> > > of oilcloth
> > > for shelter, particularly <1820 and am wondering if it is an acceptable
> > > alternative
> > > to canvas.  Any thoughts?


Somewhere in my readings I ran across something called Lubac Cloth. As I
recall I was doing research on Conestoga Wagons at the time. The period
would be about the time in discussion. I'm sorry I can't remember more.





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Enamel Cookware and dishes
Date: 12 Feb 1999 20:48:37 -0600

I think what we are talking about here is "granitewear"  which is ironware
with mottled enamel.  Track of the Wolf, Inc. reported that "The earliest
reference to enameled finished iron cookware is a German newspaper
advertisement from 1788.  Apparently enameled cookware was a common
commodity in Germany.  Since many American longrifle makers were German born
and trained, it seems likely that they were familiar with the advantages of
the enamel finish."

For my opinion, there are too many 'maybes' in these statements, and I
personally discarded my granitewear a long time ago.

Track continues: "In America, the earliest patent for an improvement in
coating metalware with enamel was granted to Charles Stumer in 1848."

I found that Merriam Webster's Tenth Collegiate dictionary lists their
earliest written documentation of the word "granitewear" is in 1878.

I know that the attraction to 'skinners using granitewear is that it is
cheap and very available, and it looks old-timey.  Around here, they still
stock it in larger grocery stores.   So you can decide.  If you want to use
granitewear, it is acceptable at most buckskinner rendezvous.  Of course,
being accepted, and being documented as authentic to the period are two very
different things.  For sure tinwear is easily documented for the rendezvous
era, particularly tin cups.  Why not pay a little more for tinwear, and
spend a little more time maintaining tinwear instead of arguing the fine
points?

Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner



-----Original Message-----


>According to Lehman's Hardware in Kidron OH, Enamel "Granny" Ware came in
>after the war of the northern aggression
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Friday, February 12, 1999 5:07 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Enamel Cookware and dishes
>
>
>>I see a lot of enamel cookware at rendezvous and have been told it is
dated
>to
>>1840.  At others I have been to they say it isn't to be seen.  Just what
is
>>the proper date for enamel dishes and cookware?  If it was around, just
how
>>far west?
>>
>> TrapRJoe





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Enamel Cookware and dishes
Date: 12 Feb 1999 20:19:24 -0700

I did the research on graniteware and then published an article on it for
the Rendezvous Report a few issues back.  Not only was graniteware not
used during the fur trade, it is doubtful it was used that much during the
Civil War.  Certainly not common.  You might want to read the article for
full information and I even wrote one the next issue on alternatives that
are proper you can use.  Don Keas

DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants

TrapRJoe wrote:
>I see a lot of enamel cookware at rendezvous and have been told it is
dated to
>1840.  At others I have been to they say it isn't to be seen.  Just what
is
>the proper date for enamel dishes and cookware?  If it was around, just
how
>far west?
>
>                            TrapRJoe
>
>
>
>RFC822 header
>-----------------------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
Date: 12 Feb 1999 21:17:25 -0700

Sal - I admire your sentiments, but have to disagree about the lack of
furs.  Not only did silk spell the end, but also the Nutria from So America.
 They were very numerous and cheaper to export than the beaver here.
Lack of furs was not what caused the demise of the beaver fur trade.  Plain
old economics.

DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants

Salvatore P. Patti wrote:
>Rick,
>What you wrote makes a lot of senses. But the real fall of the fur
traders
>was the mass killing of the animals that made the business grow then
fall.
>If more trappers toke the time and managed the animals the way the
Indians
>did, There would have been more animals and the business would have
lasted a
>hell of a lot longer then it did... Or that is just the way I feel??? I
feel
>to manage the animal is more important the to make a buck... Just like I
>think 200lbs of meat is way better then a 8+ point rack on a Deer....
>
>        The so called Hunters are nothing more then killers of a Great
and
>noble beast ( Deer, Buffalo, Elk, Caribou, Bear and Beaver ). Indians
toke
>what they needed not what they wanted... If I'm wrong in this thinking
I'm
>truly Sorry.... I know I'm know back in the time of the Mountain men/
>Trapper, but that is the way I think. thank you for your time in reading
>this ....
>                                Sal______
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Rick Williams <[e-mail]>
>To: '[e-mail]' <[e-mail]>
>Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 7:22 PM
>Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
>
>
>Henry,
>While I can concur with many of your points, I have to differ with some.
>"I" feel the death of the Rendezvous and 'BEAVER' trapping endeavors in
the
>Rocky Mountains was due to two primary reasons.  First, the change of
>fashion brought on by the "NEW " popularity of silk hats rather than the
>beaver that had been so fashionable for decades previous.  By 1840 the
price
>per pound of beaver fur had plummetted from its high just a few short
years
>earlier.  Second, with so many people after the same commodity (BEAVER),
it
>was not long before significant sections of the Rockies were denuded of
>beaver much as the Pacific West Coast had been depleted of sea otter.
>(Astors and many Russian fortunes).  By the 1860's we see the 'robe
trade'
>making significant depletions in the bison herds eventually bring this
>industry to it's demise.  Is this the fur trade?  Yes in it's broadest
>definition but very distinct from the Rocky Mountain fur trade.
>
>Another question raised was the image of the free trapper vs the
'company'
>man.  In reading biographies of so many of these mountain men, I'm
struck
>with how many different companies and trapping associations in which
these
>individuals participated.  Yes, Ashley and Andrew became Ashley and
Smith,
>then Smith, Sublette and Jackson and then Sublette and Fitzpatrick with
Jim
>and others thrown in there somewhere and this is just Rocky Mtn Fur Co..
 To
>and from every Rendezvous, there were numerous comings and goings to and
>from civilization.  We see the upstarts like Wyeth and  Bonneville
jumping
>in the middle.  My point is, many of these so called companies were no
more
>than many of the trappers themselves making companies of THEMSELVES.
While
>seed monies were definitely needed for many of these upstarts, they were
>managed and staffed by those found in the Mountains.  So, free trapper
vs
>company man, I didn't dispute that most MAY have been company men but I
have
>a harder time with the Steel Mill analogy.  Yes, there is AFC, HBC and a
few
>others, but we also see cross employment in these concerns.  I guess
what
>I'm getting at is that there was a great deal of freedom for these men.
>
>
>
>
>
>RFC822 header
>-----------------------------------
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>Message-ID: <000601be56ec$2b77e1a0$eb063018@default>
>From: "Salvatore P. Patti" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
>Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 19:59:52 -0500
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Salvatore P. Patti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
Date: 13 Feb 1999 00:42:06 -0500

Thank you for your input... I guess I really meant how people just waste
things like Animals... I read somewhere that after the White Man come here..
Over 1,000,000 Buffalo where killed and over 10,000,000 Beaver.... I do be
leave that's the right numbers... I'm sorry I be leave in the true old
way....( take only what you need).
-----Original Message-----


>Sal - I admire your sentiments, but have to disagree about the lack of
>furs.  Not only did silk spell the end, but also the Nutria from So
America.
> They were very numerous and cheaper to export than the beaver here.
>Lack of furs was not what caused the demise of the beaver fur trade.  Plain
>old economics.
>
>DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants
>
>Salvatore P. Patti wrote:
>>Rick,
>>What you wrote makes a lot of senses. But the real fall of the fur
>traders
>>was the mass killing of the animals that made the business grow then
>fall.
>>If more trappers toke the time and managed the animals the way the
>Indians
>>did, There would have been more animals and the business would have
>lasted a
>>hell of a lot longer then it did... Or that is just the way I feel??? I
>feel
>>to manage the animal is more important the to make a buck... Just like I
>>think 200lbs of meat is way better then a 8+ point rack on a Deer....
>>
>>        The so called Hunters are nothing more then killers of a Great
>and
>>noble beast ( Deer, Buffalo, Elk, Caribou, Bear and Beaver ). Indians
>toke
>>what they needed not what they wanted... If I'm wrong in this thinking
>I'm
>>truly Sorry.... I know I'm know back in the time of the Mountain men/
>>Trapper, but that is the way I think. thank you for your time in reading
>>this ....
>>                                Sal______
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Rick Williams <[e-mail]>
>>To: '[e-mail]' <[e-mail]>
>>Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 7:22 PM
>>Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
>>
>>
>>Henry,
>>While I can concur with many of your points, I have to differ with some.
>>"I" feel the death of the Rendezvous and 'BEAVER' trapping endeavors in
>the
>>Rocky Mountains was due to two primary reasons.  First, the change of
>>fashion brought on by the "NEW " popularity of silk hats rather than the
>>beaver that had been so fashionable for decades previous.  By 1840 the
>price
>>per pound of beaver fur had plummetted from its high just a few short
>years
>>earlier.  Second, with so many people after the same commodity (BEAVER),
>it
>>was not long before significant sections of the Rockies were denuded of
>>beaver much as the Pacific West Coast had been depleted of sea otter.
>>(Astors and many Russian fortunes).  By the 1860's we see the 'robe
>trade'
>>making significant depletions in the bison herds eventually bring this
>>industry to it's demise.  Is this the fur trade?  Yes in it's broadest
>>definition but very distinct from the Rocky Mountain fur trade.
>>
>>Another question raised was the image of the free trapper vs the
>'company'
>>man.  In reading biographies of so many of these mountain men, I'm
>struck
>>with how many different companies and trapping associations in which
>these
>>individuals participated.  Yes, Ashley and Andrew became Ashley and
>Smith,
>>then Smith, Sublette and Jackson and then Sublette and Fitzpatrick with
>Jim
>>and others thrown in there somewhere and this is just Rocky Mtn Fur Co..
> To
>>and from every Rendezvous, there were numerous comings and goings to and
>>from civilization.  We see the upstarts like Wyeth and  Bonneville
>jumping
>>in the middle.  My point is, many of these so called companies were no
>more
>>than many of the trappers themselves making companies of THEMSELVES.
>While
>>seed monies were definitely needed for many of these upstarts, they were
>>managed and staffed by those found in the Mountains.  So, free trapper
>vs
>>company man, I didn't dispute that most MAY have been company men but I
>have
>>a harder time with the Steel Mill analogy.  Yes, there is AFC, HBC and a
>few
>>others, but we also see cross employment in these concerns.  I guess
>what
>>I'm getting at is that there was a great deal of freedom for these men.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>RFC822 header
>>-----------------------------------
>>
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>> for <[e-mail]>; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 19:56:00 -0500
>(EST)
>>Message-ID: <000601be56ec$2b77e1a0$eb063018@default>
>>From: "Salvatore P. Patti" <[e-mail]>
>>To: <[e-mail]>
>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
>>Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 19:59:52 -0500
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>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Enamel Cookware and dishes
Date: 13 Feb 1999 00:42:10 -0600

Washtahay-
At 08:19 PM 2/12/99 -0700, you wrote:
>I did the research on graniteware and then published an article on it for
>the Rendezvous Report a few issues back.  Not only was graniteware not
>used during the fur trade, it is doubtful it was used that much during the
>Civil War.
    Fascinating.  Not that I agree with it, you understand.  One of my
favorite arguments because it is so much fun to watch.  You might want to
find some new references, as it was in use prior to 1820.  Check French
military contracts.
LongWalker c. du B.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
Date: 13 Feb 1999 00:43:20 -0600

Washtahay-
At 07:59 PM 2/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
>If more trappers toke the time and managed the animals the way the Indians
>did, There would have been more animals and the business would have lasted a
>hell of a lot longer then it did...
    The way the Indians "managed" the animals?  What do you mean?  Are we
talking the same people who hunted various animals to extinction?  The
tradition of wiping out species is one of mankind, not one exclusively
reserved to the evil white man.  Before the arrival of the white man, the
Indians wiped out 20 or 30 species that I can name off the top of my
head-and that was using stone and bone weapons.
    Project that forward to the damage they were doing with firearms and steel
knives.  Those furs were money-they could trade them for things they
couldn't make.  In essence, they were working overtime to buy things that
had a significant impact on their survival, let alone the quality of life
issues.

>        The so called Hunters are nothing more then killers of a Great and
>noble beast ( Deer, Buffalo, Elk, Caribou, Bear and Beaver ). Indians toke
>what they needed not what they wanted...
    Hmmm.  So they drove herds of buffalo off cliffs-far more than they could
use, or even harvest in part-for what reason?  The use of surrounds was an
established custom before the arrival of the Europeans, as was the use of
nets to hunt birds, torching prairies to drive game, birdlime, poisoning
ponds, etc.
    For that matter, man is not the only animal to over-hunt.  Ever hear of
the damage a weasel will do in a henhouse?
    I once watched a pair of coyotes kill over thirty ducks, obviously far
more than they needed.  And do you think predators stop eating meat while
the prey is nursing young?
LongWalker c. du B.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Enamel Cookware and dishes
Date: 13 Feb 1999 02:40:38 EST

I've heard (but can't cite anything) that not only the Military, but also
Commoners had access to 'granite-ware'. Antique dealers have shown me
referrences indicating that enamelware was in use in Europe in the late
1700's, predominately being produced in Germany.  Although it was definitely
NOT produced in the colors we see today, (blue and green), from what I can
gather from pictures and those that have traded in it, it was most commonly
seen in a whitish backround with dark (granite) colored mottling.  More fuel
for the fire..... <g>  Barney Fife



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Laurel huber <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
Date: 13 Feb 1999 01:28:53 -0800

Sean,
    I assume by "grommet" you mean those nice little brass washers you see at
the corners of contemporary tarps and tents.  Those practical little devices
never existed during the period we're trying to portray.  I'd be interested in
knowing just when those items were invented and came into common use on canvas
goods.  Grommet holes, hemmed around the edges like button holes, were what was
used on military tents when "tie straps" weren't used.  Generally, a rope loop
was passed through this hole and that became the loop that was staked to the
ground.  If brass grommets is what you've used for your "period" shelter, I'd
recommend using that tarp AS a painters drop cloth.  On your next version put
tie straps at the corners or use small stones tucked into the cloth and tied off
as Pat Quilter has recommended in a pervious posting.

Larry  Huber
"Shoots-the-Prairie"

sean wrote:

> There is a water proofing treatment I have used called COTTON PROOF from
> Nikwax.  It is made especially for waterproofing cotton canvas tents.  You
> can mix it and brush it on, or you can put it in the washing machine for
> clothing such as Hunting Frocks, etc...   For my "tarp", I used a heavy
> painters drop cloth cut to a 10x10 and had the edges "seamed" to prevent
> raveling.  I added a few gromets in each corner and the center, and about
> every 3 feet along each side.  The waterproofing works great, and so does
> the tarp...
>
> Addison Miller
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
> To: '[e-mail]' <[e-mail]>
> Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 7:33 PM
> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
>
> >Unless you use a glover's needle (with cutting edges) the thick needle and
> >thread should just push aside the fibers, leaving a fairly tight seal. Your
> >tie straps will naturally be sewn along a short distance to spread the
> >strain evenly. You will get some drippage at these points, but only a few
> >drops. I assume you have seen the trick where you take a small rock or
> >musket ball, poke it into the cloth forming a little pouch, and tie a cord
> >or thong firmly around the "neck" to use as tie points. I do this and use a
> >plain old canvas drop cloth with no loops etc. It takes a few minutes extra
> >at the camp, but you can put the ties anywhere you want along the edges or
> >in the middle. It sounds like you're on the right track overall.
> >Pat Quilter
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Tom Roberts [mailto:[e-mail]]
> >Sent: Thursday, February 11, 1999 7:04 PM
> >To: [e-mail]
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
> >
> >
> >Well, that's kind of what I was thinking also.  I had an idea that L&C had
> >used
> >oilcloth but had not seen any later references.  I expect that I will
> >continue
> >to pursue my first path which is a simple square of light canvas with some
> >sewn-on loops that can be configured as a diamond, a fly, an A-frame over a
> >rope, a lean-to, and who knows what else a bit of creative rigging might
> >make.
> >I'm wondering about the right stuff to sew it with.  I'm concerned that
> >ordinary
> >cotton thread won't withstand much outdoor use.  I have some rather heavy
> >waxed
> >linen cord but the needle necessary to use that stuff will leave pretty big
> >holes. Any ideas?
> >
> >Tom
> >
> >
> >
> >Pat Quilter wrote:
> >
> >> In my humble opinion (and that's all it is) although historically
> >available,
> >> and thus theoretically "acceptable" I would bet the occurance of oilcloth
> >in
> >> the Rocky Mountains during the fur trade was about zero. Such references
> >to
> >> portable shelters that I can recall mention "bowers" draped with
> blankets,
> >> skins or the like (and of course, other, semi-permanent structures such
> as
> >> tipis, forts, etc). It's my impression that trappers did not use a
> >prepared
> >> shelter, although a few of the most well-equipped expeditions (such as
> >> Stewart's) brought simple wedge tents. With all due respect to those who
> >> prepare and use oilcloth, I find that simple untreated canvas is lighter,
> >> more versatile, and sheds water adequately with a few basic precautions
> of
> >> rigging. On the few horse outings I've participated in, we used our pack
> >> animal mantees as shelters. When back packing, I take a canvas, and 1-2
> >> blankets depending on weather. If things turn really snotty, we
> >consolidate
> >> our stuff and make communal shelters. Trappers did the same.
> >> Humbly submitted,
> >> Pat Quilter
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Tom Roberts [mailto:[e-mail]]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 8:07 PM
> >> To: [e-mail]
> >> Subject: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
> >>
> >> I've scoured the archives of this forum and find no reference to the use
> >> of oilcloth
> >> for shelter, particularly <1820 and am wondering if it is an acceptable
> >> alternative
> >> to canvas.  Any thoughts?
> >
> >
> >






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Enamel Cookware and dishes
Date: 13 Feb 1999 07:42:39 -0800

Not familiar with the publication you cite but I would like to be - can you provide
some info on where to obtain?

Thanks!

Phyllis and Don Keas wrote:

> I did the research on graniteware and then published an article on it for
> the Rendezvous Report a few issues back.  Not only was graniteware not
> used during the fur trade, it is doubtful it was used that much during the
> Civil War.  Certainly not common.  You might want to read the article for
> full information and I even wrote one the next issue on alternatives that
> are proper you can use.  Don Keas
>
> DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants
>
> TrapRJoe wrote:
> >I see a lot of enamel cookware at rendezvous and have been told it is
> dated to
> >1840.  At others I have been to they say it isn't to be seen.  Just what
> is
> >the proper date for enamel dishes and cookware?  If it was around, just
> how
> >far west?
> >
> >                                                       TrapRJoe
> >
> >
> >
> >RFC822 header
> >-----------------------------------
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> >Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:07:51 EST
> >To: [e-mail]
> >Mime-Version: 1.0
> >Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Enamel Cookware and dishes
> >Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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> >




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
Date: 13 Feb 1999 07:51:18 -0800

My belief is that only during the past century has man fully comprehended the concept
of sustainable harvest.  We now know (at least some of us) the critical relationships
between habitat, reproduction rates, food chain, etc.  I expect it is possible that
during previous centuries there were some individuals that also shared this
appreciation but only recently have we actually applied scientific principles to the
"management" of game and we still to a rather poor job.


Jim Colburn wrote:

> Washtahay-
> At 07:59 PM 2/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >If more trappers toke the time and managed the animals the way the Indians
> >did, There would have been more animals and the business would have lasted a
> >hell of a lot longer then it did...
>         The way the Indians "managed" the animals?  What do you mean?  Are we
> talking the same people who hunted various animals to extinction?  The
> tradition of wiping out species is one of mankind, not one exclusively
> reserved to the evil white man.  Before the arrival of the white man, the
> Indians wiped out 20 or 30 species that I can name off the top of my
> head-and that was using stone and bone weapons.
>         Project that forward to the damage they were doing with firearms and steel
> knives.  Those furs were money-they could trade them for things they
> couldn't make.  In essence, they were working overtime to buy things that
> had a significant impact on their survival, let alone the quality of life
> issues.
>
> >        The so called Hunters are nothing more then killers of a Great and
> >noble beast ( Deer, Buffalo, Elk, Caribou, Bear and Beaver ). Indians toke
> >what they needed not what they wanted...
>         Hmmm.  So they drove herds of buffalo off cliffs-far more than they could
> use, or even harvest in part-for what reason?  The use of surrounds was an
> established custom before the arrival of the Europeans, as was the use of
> nets to hunt birds, torching prairies to drive game, birdlime, poisoning
> ponds, etc.
>         For that matter, man is not the only animal to over-hunt.  Ever hear of
> the damage a weasel will do in a henhouse?
>         I once watched a pair of coyotes kill over thirty ducks, obviously far
> more than they needed.  And do you think predators stop eating meat while
> the prey is nursing young?
> LongWalker c. du B.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
Date: 13 Feb 1999 07:32:56 -0600

Here are the three entries in Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary that =
mention Grommet.  As you can see,  there are no references to anything =
that would resemble the grommets found in modern tarps, etc.=20

As Larry Hubner said, tie straps work good.  I have ties at the corners =
and at 24 inch intervals around each edge of a 10 X 10 tarp.  I drive a =
wooden stake (made on the spot from a short section of stout limb at =
least as big around as your thumb...twice as big is better) into the =
ground and pull the ties around it from each side at least twice before =
tieing.  I also have a small square of canvas sewn into the center of =
the tarp (as re-inforcement) and have fastened ties on each side of the =
canvas to enable me to conveniently tie off to a convenient limb, etc, =
to pull the center of my fly up a little to increase headroom in the =
shelter and to prevent it from billowing inward when the winds come.  =
The ties on the other side of the canvas (the inside, as it were) can be =
used to secure a little support pole or to tie your eyeglasses where you =
can find them...lots of uses.   I waterproofed the connection of the =
ties to the canvas and have never had a leak.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff


GROM'MET, n. Among seamen, a ring formed of a strand of rope laid in =
three times round; used to fasten the upper edge of a sail to its stay.


HANK, n.
1.  A skein of thread; as much thread as is tied together; a tie.
2.  In ships. a wooden ring fixed to a stay, to confine the stay-sails; =
used in the place of a grommet.


TRAV'ELER, n.
1.  One who travels in any way.  Job:31.
2.  One who visits foreign countries.
3.  In ships, an iron thimble or thimbles with a rope spliced round =
them, forming a kind of tail or a species of grommet.

-----Original Message-----


>Sean,
>    I assume by "grommet" you mean those nice little brass washers you =
see at
>the corners of contemporary tarps and tents.  Those practical little =
devices
>never existed during the period we're trying to portray.  I'd be =
interested in
>knowing just when those items were invented and came into common use on =
canvas
>goods.  Grommet holes, hemmed around the edges like button holes, were =
what was
>used on military tents when "tie straps" weren't used.  Generally, a =
rope loop
>was passed through this hole and that became the loop that was staked =
to the
>ground.  If brass grommets is what you've used for your "period" =
shelter, I'd
>recommend using that tarp AS a painters drop cloth.  On your next =
version put
>tie straps at the corners or use small stones tucked into the cloth and =
tied off
>as Pat Quilter has recommended in a pervious posting.
>
>Larry  Huber
>"Shoots-the-Prairie"
>
>sean wrote:
>
>> There is a water proofing treatment I have used called COTTON PROOF =
from
>> Nikwax.  It is made especially for waterproofing cotton canvas tents. =
 You
>> can mix it and brush it on, or you can put it in the washing machine =
for
>> clothing such as Hunting Frocks, etc...   For my "tarp", I used a =
heavy
>> painters drop cloth cut to a 10x10 and had the edges "seamed" to =
prevent
>> raveling.  I added a few gromets in each corner and the center, and =
about
>> every 3 feet along each side.  The waterproofing works great, and so =
does
>> the tarp...
>>
>> Addison Miller
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
>> To: '[e-mail]' <[e-mail]>
>> Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 7:33 PM
>> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
>>
>> >Unless you use a glover's needle (with cutting edges) the thick =
needle and
>> >thread should just push aside the fibers, leaving a fairly tight =
seal. Your
>> >tie straps will naturally be sewn along a short distance to spread =
the
>> >strain evenly. You will get some drippage at these points, but only =
a few
>> >drops. I assume you have seen the trick where you take a small rock =
or
>> >musket ball, poke it into the cloth forming a little pouch, and tie =
a cord
>> >or thong firmly around the "neck" to use as tie points. I do this =
and use a
>> >plain old canvas drop cloth with no loops etc. It takes a few =
minutes extra
>> >at the camp, but you can put the ties anywhere you want along the =
edges or
>> >in the middle. It sounds like you're on the right track overall.
>> >Pat Quilter
>> >
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Tom Roberts [mailto:[e-mail]]
>> >Sent: Thursday, February 11, 1999 7:04 PM
>> >To: [e-mail]
>> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
>> >
>> >
>> >Well, that's kind of what I was thinking also.  I had an idea that =
L&C had
>> >used
>> >oilcloth but had not seen any later references.  I expect that I =
will
>> >continue
>> >to pursue my first path which is a simple square of light canvas =
with some
>> >sewn-on loops that can be configured as a diamond, a fly, an A-frame =
over a
>> >rope, a lean-to, and who knows what else a bit of creative rigging =
might
>> >make.
>> >I'm wondering about the right stuff to sew it with.  I'm concerned =
that
>> >ordinary
>> >cotton thread won't withstand much outdoor use.  I have some rather =
heavy
>> >waxed
>> >linen cord but the needle necessary to use that stuff will leave =
pretty big
>> >holes. Any ideas?
>> >
>> >Tom
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Pat Quilter wrote:
>> >
>> >> In my humble opinion (and that's all it is) although historically
>> >available,
>> >> and thus theoretically "acceptable" I would bet the occurance of =
oilcloth
>> >in
>> >> the Rocky Mountains during the fur trade was about zero. Such =
references
>> >to
>> >> portable shelters that I can recall mention "bowers" draped with
>> blankets,
>> >> skins or the like (and of course, other, semi-permanent structures =
such
>> as
>> >> tipis, forts, etc). It's my impression that trappers did not use a
>> >prepared
>> >> shelter, although a few of the most well-equipped expeditions =
(such as
>> >> Stewart's) brought simple wedge tents. With all due respect to =
those who
>> >> prepare and use oilcloth, I find that simple untreated canvas is =
lighter,
>> >> more versatile, and sheds water adequately with a few basic =
precautions
>> of
>> >> rigging. On the few horse outings I've participated in, we used =
our pack
>> >> animal mantees as shelters. When back packing, I take a canvas, =
and 1-2
>> >> blankets depending on weather. If things turn really snotty, we
>> >consolidate
>> >> our stuff and make communal shelters. Trappers did the same.
>> >> Humbly submitted,
>> >> Pat Quilter
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Tom Roberts [mailto:[e-mail]]
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 8:07 PM
>> >> To: [e-mail]
>> >> Subject: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
>> >>
>> >> I've scoured the archives of this forum and find no reference to =
the use
>> >> of oilcloth
>> >> for shelter, particularly <1820 and am wondering if it is an =
acceptable
>> >> alternative
>> >> to canvas.  Any thoughts?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
Date: 13 Feb 1999 08:41:38 -0600

Mr. Patti,

I suggest you spend a few more years studying the fur trade,
native american history, and the relationships that have existed between man
and nature. I sure don't confess to know everything,
on the contrary it seems the older I get the more aware of all the things I
don't know. I can tell you I lived for seven years in a 12' by 16' cabin
back  in the woods of northern WI with no electricity or running water
and that experience helped me understand many things mainly
because when I wasn't working I had a LOT of time to read and
THINK. Studying archeology from paleo times to present has been one of the
most enjoyable things for me and has really opened my eyes in a lot of
respects. We are fortunate that there are many records
of the fur trade and early exploration of this country. There is hardly no
end of things to read and learn about.
I can't see how some people can form such strong opinions after
watching a few movies like "Dances with Wolves" and the like.

From the Northwoods

Tony Clark
-----Original Message-----


>Rick,
>What you wrote makes a lot of senses. But the real fall of the fur traders
>was the mass killing of the animals that made the business grow then fall.
>If more trappers toke the time and managed the animals the way the Indians
>did, There would have been more animals and the business would have lasted
a
>hell of a lot longer then it did... Or that is just the way I feel??? I
feel
>to manage the animal is more important the to make a buck... Just like I
>think 200lbs of meat is way better then a 8+ point rack on a Deer....
>
>        The so called Hunters are nothing more then killers of a Great and
>noble beast ( Deer, Buffalo, Elk, Caribou, Bear and Beaver ). Indians toke
>what they needed not what they wanted... If I'm wrong in this thinking I'm
>truly Sorry.... I know I'm know back in the time of the Mountain men/
>Trapper, but that is the way I think. thank you for your time in reading
>this ....
>                                Sal______
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Rick Williams <[e-mail]>
>To: '[e-mail]' <[e-mail]>
>Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 7:22 PM
>Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
>
>
>Henry,
>While I can concur with many of your points, I have to differ with some.
>"I" feel the death of the Rendezvous and 'BEAVER' trapping endeavors in the
>Rocky Mountains was due to two primary reasons.  First, the change of
>fashion brought on by the "NEW " popularity of silk hats rather than the
>beaver that had been so fashionable for decades previous.  By 1840 the
price
>per pound of beaver fur had plummetted from its high just a few short years
>earlier.  Second, with so many people after the same commodity (BEAVER), it
>was not long before significant sections of the Rockies were denuded of
>beaver much as the Pacific West Coast had been depleted of sea otter.
>(Astors and many Russian fortunes).  By the 1860's we see the 'robe trade'
>making significant depletions in the bison herds eventually bring this
>industry to it's demise.  Is this the fur trade?  Yes in it's broadest
>definition but very distinct from the Rocky Mountain fur trade.
>
>Another question raised was the image of the free trapper vs the 'company'
>man.  In reading biographies of so many of these mountain men, I'm struck
>with how many different companies and trapping associations in which these
>individuals participated.  Yes, Ashley and Andrew became Ashley and Smith,
>then Smith, Sublette and Jackson and then Sublette and Fitzpatrick with Jim
>and others thrown in there somewhere and this is just Rocky Mtn Fur Co..
To
>and from every Rendezvous, there were numerous comings and goings to and
>from civilization.  We see the upstarts like Wyeth and  Bonneville  jumping
>in the middle.  My point is, many of these so called companies were no more
>than many of the trappers themselves making companies of THEMSELVES.  While
>seed monies were definitely needed for many of these upstarts, they were
>managed and staffed by those found in the Mountains.  So, free trapper vs
>company man, I didn't dispute that most MAY have been company men but I
have
>a harder time with the Steel Mill analogy.  Yes, there is AFC, HBC and a
few
>others, but we also see cross employment in these concerns.  I guess what
>I'm getting at is that there was a great deal of freedom for these men.
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
Date: 13 Feb 1999 09:44:06 -0500

You are right... I should have put "grommet" in quotes.  The holes were
made...(I did use a grommet punch for this)... reinforced with leather...
then sewn around the hole and the leather square.  Pain in the butt!!  and
many holes in fingers!!  I had tried the "rocks in the corner" before, but
justdidn'tlike the way it looked.

Addison

-----Original Message-----


>Sean,
>    I assume by "grommet" you mean those nice little brass washers you see
at
>the corners of contemporary tarps and tents.  Those practical little
devices
>never existed during the period we're trying to portray.  I'd be interested
in
>knowing just when those items were invented and came into common use on
canvas
>goods.  Grommet holes, hemmed around the edges like button holes, were what
was
>used on military tents when "tie straps" weren't used.  Generally, a rope
loop
>was passed through this hole and that became the loop that was staked to
the
>ground.  If brass grommets is what you've used for your "period" shelter,
I'd
>recommend using that tarp AS a painters drop cloth.  On your next version
put
>tie straps at the corners or use small stones tucked into the cloth and
tied off
>as Pat Quilter has recommended in a pervious posting.
>
>Larry  Huber
>"Shoots-the-Prairie"
>
>sean wrote:
>
>> There is a water proofing treatment I have used called COTTON PROOF from
>> Nikwax.  It is made especially for waterproofing cotton canvas tents.
You
>> can mix it and brush it on, or you can put it in the washing machine for
>> clothing such as Hunting Frocks, etc...   For my "tarp", I used a heavy
>> painters drop cloth cut to a 10x10 and had the edges "seamed" to prevent
>> raveling.  I added a few gromets in each corner and the center, and about
>> every 3 feet along each side.  The waterproofing works great, and so does
>> the tarp...
>>
>> Addison Miller
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
>> To: '[e-mail]' <[e-mail]>
>> Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 7:33 PM
>> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
>>
>> >Unless you use a glover's needle (with cutting edges) the thick needle
and
>> >thread should just push aside the fibers, leaving a fairly tight seal.
Your
>> >tie straps will naturally be sewn along a short distance to spread the
>> >strain evenly. You will get some drippage at these points, but only a
few
>> >drops. I assume you have seen the trick where you take a small rock or
>> >musket ball, poke it into the cloth forming a little pouch, and tie a
cord
>> >or thong firmly around the "neck" to use as tie points. I do this and
use a
>> >plain old canvas drop cloth with no loops etc. It takes a few minutes
extra
>> >at the camp, but you can put the ties anywhere you want along the edges
or
>> >in the middle. It sounds like you're on the right track overall.
>> >Pat Quilter
>> >
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Tom Roberts [mailto:[e-mail]]
>> >Sent: Thursday, February 11, 1999 7:04 PM
>> >To: [e-mail]
>> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
>> >
>> >
>> >Well, that's kind of what I was thinking also.  I had an idea that L&C
had
>> >used
>> >oilcloth but had not seen any later references.  I expect that I will
>> >continue
>> >to pursue my first path which is a simple square of light canvas with
some
>> >sewn-on loops that can be configured as a diamond, a fly, an A-frame
over a
>> >rope, a lean-to, and who knows what else a bit of creative rigging might
>> >make.
>> >I'm wondering about the right stuff to sew it with.  I'm concerned that
>> >ordinary
>> >cotton thread won't withstand much outdoor use.  I have some rather
heavy
>> >waxed
>> >linen cord but the needle necessary to use that stuff will leave pretty
big
>> >holes. Any ideas?
>> >
>> >Tom
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Pat Quilter wrote:
>> >
>> >> In my humble opinion (and that's all it is) although historically
>> >available,
>> >> and thus theoretically "acceptable" I would bet the occurance of
oilcloth
>> >in
>> >> the Rocky Mountains during the fur trade was about zero. Such
references
>> >to
>> >> portable shelters that I can recall mention "bowers" draped with
>> blankets,
>> >> skins or the like (and of course, other, semi-permanent structures
such
>> as
>> >> tipis, forts, etc). It's my impression that trappers did not use a
>> >prepared
>> >> shelter, although a few of the most well-equipped expeditions (such as
>> >> Stewart's) brought simple wedge tents. With all due respect to those
who
>> >> prepare and use oilcloth, I find that simple untreated canvas is
lighter,
>> >> more versatile, and sheds water adequately with a few basic
precautions
>> of
>> >> rigging. On the few horse outings I've participated in, we used our
pack
>> >> animal mantees as shelters. When back packing, I take a canvas, and
1-2
>> >> blankets depending on weather. If things turn really snotty, we
>> >consolidate
>> >> our stuff and make communal shelters. Trappers did the same.
>> >> Humbly submitted,
>> >> Pat Quilter
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Tom Roberts [mailto:[e-mail]]
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 8:07 PM
>> >> To: [e-mail]
>> >> Subject: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
>> >>
>> >> I've scoured the archives of this forum and find no reference to the
use
>> >> of oilcloth
>> >> for shelter, particularly <1820 and am wondering if it is an
acceptable
>> >> alternative
>> >> to canvas.  Any thoughts?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>
>
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Enamel Cookware and dishes
Date: 13 Feb 1999 09:41:27 EST

Glad you wrote a report in Rendezvous Report, but I don't get it, and if it
wasn't for this list I wouldn't have heard of it.  Surely I'm not alone, so
just refering to some publication doesn't help much

                                TrapRJoe



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Salvatore P. Patti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
Date: 13 Feb 1999 10:04:47 -0500

My Opinions didn't come from movies.... I lived in a Indian res. in
Texas...I didn't mean to sound like all Indians didn't waste meat and other
stuff, but Most Indians used everything the animal had..."Dances with
wolves" was a good movie, but didn't really show anything about how the
early days in the new world really was...I know I have a lot to learn, but I
do speak my mind at times... SORRY.
-----Original Message-----


>Mr. Patti,
>
>I suggest you spend a few more years studying the fur trade,
>native american history, and the relationships that have existed between
man
>and nature. I sure don't confess to know everything,
>on the contrary it seems the older I get the more aware of all the things I
>don't know. I can tell you I lived for seven years in a 12' by 16' cabin
>back  in the woods of northern WI with no electricity or running water
>and that experience helped me understand many things mainly
>because when I wasn't working I had a LOT of time to read and
>THINK. Studying archeology from paleo times to present has been one of the
>most enjoyable things for me and has really opened my eyes in a lot of
>respects. We are fortunate that there are many records
>of the fur trade and early exploration of this country. There is hardly no
>end of things to read and learn about.
>I can't see how some people can form such strong opinions after
>watching a few movies like "Dances with Wolves" and the like.
>
>>From the Northwoods
>
>Tony Clark
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Salvatore P. Patti <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 6:48 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
>
>
>>Rick,
>>What you wrote makes a lot of senses. But the real fall of the fur traders
>>was the mass killing of the animals that made the business grow then fall.
>>If more trappers toke the time and managed the animals the way the Indians
>>did, There would have been more animals and the business would have lasted
>a
>>hell of a lot longer then it did... Or that is just the way I feel??? I
>feel
>>to manage the animal is more important the to make a buck... Just like I
>>think 200lbs of meat is way better then a 8+ point rack on a Deer....
>>
>>        The so called Hunters are nothing more then killers of a Great and
>>noble beast ( Deer, Buffalo, Elk, Caribou, Bear and Beaver ). Indians toke
>>what they needed not what they wanted... If I'm wrong in this thinking I'm
>>truly Sorry.... I know I'm know back in the time of the Mountain men/
>>Trapper, but that is the way I think. thank you for your time in reading
>>this ....
>>                                Sal______
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Rick Williams <[e-mail]>
>>To: '[e-mail]' <[e-mail]>
>>Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 7:22 PM
>>Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
>>
>>
>>Henry,
>>While I can concur with many of your points, I have to differ with some.
>>"I" feel the death of the Rendezvous and 'BEAVER' trapping endeavors in
the
>>Rocky Mountains was due to two primary reasons.  First, the change of
>>fashion brought on by the "NEW " popularity of silk hats rather than the
>>beaver that had been so fashionable for decades previous.  By 1840 the
>price
>>per pound of beaver fur had plummetted from its high just a few short
years
>>earlier.  Second, with so many people after the same commodity (BEAVER),
it
>>was not long before significant sections of the Rockies were denuded of
>>beaver much as the Pacific West Coast had been depleted of sea otter.
>>(Astors and many Russian fortunes).  By the 1860's we see the 'robe trade'
>>making significant depletions in the bison herds eventually bring this
>>industry to it's demise.  Is this the fur trade?  Yes in it's broadest
>>definition but very distinct from the Rocky Mountain fur trade.
>>
>>Another question raised was the image of the free trapper vs the 'company'
>>man.  In reading biographies of so many of these mountain men, I'm struck
>>with how many different companies and trapping associations in which these
>>individuals participated.  Yes, Ashley and Andrew became Ashley and Smith,
>>then Smith, Sublette and Jackson and then Sublette and Fitzpatrick with
Jim
>>and others thrown in there somewhere and this is just Rocky Mtn Fur Co..
>To
>>and from every Rendezvous, there were numerous comings and goings to and
>>from civilization.  We see the upstarts like Wyeth and  Bonneville
jumping
>>in the middle.  My point is, many of these so called companies were no
more
>>than many of the trappers themselves making companies of THEMSELVES.
While
>>seed monies were definitely needed for many of these upstarts, they were
>>managed and staffed by those found in the Mountains.  So, free trapper vs
>>company man, I didn't dispute that most MAY have been company men but I
>have
>>a harder time with the Steel Mill analogy.  Yes, there is AFC, HBC and a
>few
>>others, but we also see cross employment in these concerns.  I guess what
>>I'm getting at is that there was a great deal of freedom for these men.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: MtMan-List: Period Correct Rifle???
Date: 13 Feb 1999 08:49:39 -0700 (MST)



Lucky me I am retired now, have all this time to do what I want to do, when I wa
nt to do it.  So hopefully sometime this summer I will have assemble all the stuf
f I need to have an almost period correct outfit to show up at my First Ever Rend
ezvous?  So the the item I am looking for information on is a rifle, no I am not
going to and buying one of those Great Lyman Great Planes Hunter in Flintlock, go
t something already along those lines.  I am looking for a Flintlock that is from
 an earlier period than what is called the Fur Trade Era.  So here is the questio
n as I understand that some of these Rendezvous and Living history events have so
me real strict rules about what is allowed and not allowed.  There are many Rifle
 both Finish and in Kit forms that are what I will call kind of Rifles.  TVM, GL
Jones, Chambers and other say in their catalog that this or that rifle is not a c
opy of say a Pennsylvania Lancaster County Joe Smith Rifle, Just a kind of Lancas
ter Style.  Question is this Lancaster, Southern Mountain, York County or Tenness
ee Style Period Correct Enough?  What make a rifle or Musket Prior Period Correct
, or not Period Correct?  Answers and information would be greatly appreciated.

B

--
"The Price Of Freedom
     Is Not Free"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: MtMan-List: Period Correct Rifle???
Date: 13 Feb 1999 08:49:39 -0700 (MST)



Lucky me I am retired now, have all this time to do what I want to do, when I wa
nt to do it.  So hopefully sometime this summer I will have assemble all the stuf
f I need to have an almost period correct outfit to show up at my First Ever Rend
ezvous?  So the the item I am looking for information on is a rifle, no I am not
going to and buying one of those Great Lyman Great Planes Hunter in Flintlock, go
t something already along those lines.  I am looking for a Flintlock that is from
 an earlier period than what is called the Fur Trade Era.  So here is the questio
n as I understand that some of these Rendezvous and Living history events have so
me real strict rules about what is allowed and not allowed.  There are many Rifle
 both Finish and in Kit forms that are what I will call kind of Rifles.  TVM, GL
Jones, Chambers and other say in their catalog that this or that rifle is not a c
opy of say a Pennsylvania Lancaster County Joe Smith Rifle, Just a kind of Lancas
ter Style.  Question is this Lancaster, Southern Mountain, York County or Tenness
ee Style Period Correct Enough?  What make a rifle or Musket Prior Period Correct
, or not Period Correct?  Answers and information would be greatly appreciated.

B

--
"The Price Of Freedom
     Is Not Free"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: enameled tin ware
Date: 13 Feb 1999 11:05:22 +0100

The folks who put the ever-popular blue enameled tin ware
well into the last part of the 19th century are right on.
In researching period records be careful not to confuse
crockery that might be called "granite--- something orother"
 or items called "enameled .... something or other" with the
enameled tinware so popular today.  I once thought I had
found enameled tinware in a ca. 1830 invoice onloy to
realize upon further research that an "enameled teapot" was
a porcilane (sp) teapot with enameled paint decoration.
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
Date: 13 Feb 1999 12:11:12 -0600

I hate to burst your bubble, but there is another theory on the demise of
the buffalo. A couple of years ago there was a PBS documentary which dealt
with the subject. On it there was a historian [I can't recall his name] who
had the all the numbers and documentation to support the theory that it was
not physically possible to haul enough powder and lead to the plains to
exterminate the then massive herds of buffalo. His theory also was that the
buffalo herds had grown so large that disease had become a major problem in
the herds. The disease was BRUCELLOSIS.  It is a reproductive disease that
causes the  females to abort their calves at about the middle of their
gestation. It is also a very contagious disease. This was supported by the
fact that the herd that was captured and moved from The Yellowstone Park to
Canada in the early 1900's was highly infested with brucellosis. This
program only ran one time. I suspect that the managers of the station had
not previewed it thoroughly because it certainly did not meet todays
standards for politically correctness. Now, there is no doubt in my mind
that the hide trade played a major role in the near exctinction of the
buffalo, but given the fact that the herds had become so large and the
animals and were concentrated so closely together, it is very likely that
disease also played a major role in it. Keep in mind the Indians had been
driving buffalo over cliffs by the thousands for centuries. Some of these
sites are still visible today.
Just more food for thought !
Pendleton
----------
> From: Salvatore P. Patti <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
> Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 11:42 PM
>
> Thank you for your input... I guess I really meant how people just waste
> things like Animals... I read somewhere that after the White Man come
here..
> Over 1,000,000 Buffalo where killed and over 10,000,000 Beaver.... I do
be
> leave that's the right numbers... I'm sorry I be leave in the true old
> way....( take only what you need).
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
> To: hist_text <[e-mail]>
> Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 11:20 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
>
>
> >Sal - I admire your sentiments, but have to disagree about the lack of
> >furs.  Not only did silk spell the end, but also the Nutria from So
> America.
> > They were very numerous and cheaper to export than the beaver here.
> >Lack of furs was not what caused the demise of the beaver fur trade.
Plain
> >old economics.
> >
> >DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants
> >
> >Salvatore P. Patti wrote:
> >>Rick,
> >>What you wrote makes a lot of senses. But the real fall of the fur
> >traders
> >>was the mass killing of the animals that made the business grow then
> >fall.
> >>If more trappers toke the time and managed the animals the way the
> >Indians
> >>did, There would have been more animals and the business would have
> >lasted a
> >>hell of a lot longer then it did... Or that is just the way I feel??? I
> >feel
> >>to manage the animal is more important the to make a buck... Just like
I
> >>think 200lbs of meat is way better then a 8+ point rack on a Deer....
> >>
> >>        The so called Hunters are nothing more then killers of a Great
> >and
> >>noble beast ( Deer, Buffalo, Elk, Caribou, Bear and Beaver ). Indians
> >toke
> >>what they needed not what they wanted... If I'm wrong in this thinking
> >I'm
> >>truly Sorry.... I know I'm know back in the time of the Mountain men/
> >>Trapper, but that is the way I think. thank you for your time in
reading
> >>this ....
> >>                                Sal______
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Rick Williams <[e-mail]>
> >>To: '[e-mail]' <[e-mail]>
> >>Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 7:22 PM
> >>Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
> >>
> >>
> >>Henry,
> >>While I can concur with many of your points, I have to differ with
some.
> >>"I" feel the death of the Rendezvous and 'BEAVER' trapping endeavors in
> >the
> >>Rocky Mountains was due to two primary reasons.  First, the change of
> >>fashion brought on by the "NEW " popularity of silk hats rather than
the
> >>beaver that had been so fashionable for decades previous.  By 1840 the
> >price
> >>per pound of beaver fur had plummetted from its high just a few short
> >years
> >>earlier.  Second, with so many people after the same commodity
(BEAVER),
> >it
> >>was not long before significant sections of the Rockies were denuded of
> >>beaver much as the Pacific West Coast had been depleted of sea otter.
> >>(Astors and many Russian fortunes).  By the 1860's we see the 'robe
> >trade'
> >>making significant depletions in the bison herds eventually bring this
> >>industry to it's demise.  Is this the fur trade?  Yes in it's broadest
> >>definition but very distinct from the Rocky Mountain fur trade.
> >>
> >>Another question raised was the image of the free trapper vs the
> >'company'
> >>man.  In reading biographies of so many of these mountain men, I'm
> >struck
> >>with how many different companies and trapping associations in which
> >these
> >>individuals participated.  Yes, Ashley and Andrew became Ashley and
> >Smith,
> >>then Smith, Sublette and Jackson and then Sublette and Fitzpatrick with
> >Jim
> >>and others thrown in there somewhere and this is just Rocky Mtn Fur
Co..
> > To
> >>and from every Rendezvous, there were numerous comings and goings to
and
> >>from civilization.  We see the upstarts like Wyeth and  Bonneville
> >jumping
> >>in the middle.  My point is, many of these so called companies were no
> >more
> >>than many of the trappers themselves making companies of THEMSELVES.
> >While
> >>seed monies were definitely needed for many of these upstarts, they
were
> >>managed and staffed by those found in the Mountains.  So, free trapper
> >vs
> >>company man, I didn't dispute that most MAY have been company men but I
> >have
> >>a harder time with the Steel Mill analogy.  Yes, there is AFC, HBC and
a
> >few
> >>others, but we also see cross employment in these concerns.  I guess
> >what
> >>I'm getting at is that there was a great deal of freedom for these men.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>RFC822 header
> >>-----------------------------------
> >>
> >>Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com
with
> >ESMTP
> >>  (SMTPD32-4.03) id AF4BA6B014E; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:03:07 MDT
> >>Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1)
> >> id 10BTNQ-0003Kh-00
> >> for [e-mail]; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:56:08
-0700
> >>Received: from [24.48.0.3] (helo=pi.adelphia.net)
> >> by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1)
> >> id 10BTNM-0003Jm-00
> >> for [e-mail]; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:56:04 -0700
> >>Received: from default (isp132-235.dov.adelphia.net [24.48.6.235])
> >> by pi.adelphia.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id TAA26531
> >> for <[e-mail]>; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 19:56:00 -0500
> >(EST)
> >>Message-ID: <000601be56ec$2b77e1a0$eb063018@default>
> >>From: "Salvatore P. Patti" <[e-mail]>
> >>To: <[e-mail]>
> >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
> >>Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 19:59:52 -0500
> >>MIME-Version: 1.0
> >>Content-Type: text/plain;
> >> charset="iso-8859-1"
> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >>X-Priority: 3
> >>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> >>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
> >>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
> >>Sender: [e-mail]
> >>Precedence: bulk
> >>Reply-To: [e-mail]
> >>X-UIDL: 915555753
> >>Status: U
> >>
> >
> >
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous
Date: 13 Feb 1999 13:10:30 -0500

> "Salvatore P. Patti" wrote:
>
> Does anyone know of any Rendezvous on the East Coast??? ( New York,
> Pennsylvania, New Jersey )

Salvatore, PLEASE do NOT send mail in HTML format.....a lot of folks
have readers that don't do well with it.  It's considered "rude" on
the net.

As to your question, yes, there will be some coming up shortly here in
NY and PA.  You'll find the announcements in "Muzzleloader," probably
the best magazine for those in our sport.

Fred

--
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
http://www.best.com/~capn/thunder/willy.htm





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Salvatore P. Patti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous
Date: 13 Feb 1999 13:24:53 -0500

sorry for the html post i made
-----Original Message-----


>> "Salvatore P. Patti" wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone know of any Rendezvous on the East Coast??? ( New York,
>> Pennsylvania, New Jersey )
>
>Salvatore, PLEASE do NOT send mail in HTML format.....a lot of folks
>have readers that don't do well with it.  It's considered "rude" on
>the net.
>
>As to your question, yes, there will be some coming up shortly here in
>NY and PA.  You'll find the announcements in "Muzzleloader," probably
>the best magazine for those in our sport.
>
>Fred
>
>--
>"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
>http://www.best.com/~capn/thunder/willy.htm
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeffrey Volberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
Date: 13 Feb 1999 10:22:30 -0800

Hello the List,

Not to be disrespectful, but I am not sure the "old way" of the
idealized Indians ever truly existed, either. Travelers in Montana as
late as the 1880's commented on places called "piscums" or "pishkuns",
where the Indians had run buffalo over cliffs in the period prior to
their obtaining horses.  These piscums were characterized by piles of
bones up to three feet deep, surrounded by felted buffalo hair and
wool.  While the Indians undoubtedly took their needed supplies from the
buffalo, equally undoubtedly a great deal of hides, meat, and bone were
also wasted.  Indians were human beings, of course, not Al Gore-like
environmental superstars, and the resources available to them at the
time must have seemed virtually unlimited.  Furthermore, the
difficulties of killing sufficient amounts of buffalo before the advent
of the horse dictated the use of crude methods such as piscums.
Although they had the skills to use every part of an animal, the idea
that they always did so defies common sense as well as historical
evidence.  Of course, this is not to say the white man was not
infinitely more wasteful.  Ironically, however, many of the piscums were
eventually cleaned up by white bone collectors who shipped the bones
back East to be turned into fertilizer.  So humankind eventually made
use of what appeared to have been wasted.

Respectfully,

Jeff Volberg

Salvatore P. Patti wrote:
>
> Thank you for your input... I guess I really meant how people just waste
> things like Animals... I read somewhere that after the White Man come here..
> Over 1,000,000 Buffalo where killed and over 10,000,000 Beaver.... I do be
> leave that's the right numbers... I'm sorry I be leave in the true old
> way....( take only what you need).
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
> To: hist_text <[e-mail]>
> Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 11:20 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
>
> >Sal - I admire your sentiments, but have to disagree about the lack of
> >furs.  Not only did silk spell the end, but also the Nutria from So
> America.
> > They were very numerous and cheaper to export than the beaver here.
> >Lack of furs was not what caused the demise of the beaver fur trade.  Plain
> >old economics.
> >
> >DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants
> >
> >Salvatore P. Patti wrote:
> >>Rick,
> >>What you wrote makes a lot of senses. But the real fall of the fur
> >traders
> >>was the mass killing of the animals that made the business grow then
> >fall.
> >>If more trappers toke the time and managed the animals the way the
> >Indians
> >>did, There would have been more animals and the business would have
> >lasted a
> >>hell of a lot longer then it did... Or that is just the way I feel??? I
> >feel
> >>to manage the animal is more important the to make a buck... Just like I
> >>think 200lbs of meat is way better then a 8+ point rack on a Deer....
> >>
> >>        The so called Hunters are nothing more then killers of a Great
> >and
> >>noble beast ( Deer, Buffalo, Elk, Caribou, Bear and Beaver ). Indians
> >toke
> >>what they needed not what they wanted... If I'm wrong in this thinking
> >I'm
> >>truly Sorry.... I know I'm know back in the time of the Mountain men/
> >>Trapper, but that is the way I think. thank you for your time in reading
> >>this ....
> >>                                Sal______
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Rick Williams <[e-mail]>
> >>To: '[e-mail]' <[e-mail]>
> >>Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 7:22 PM
> >>Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
> >>
> >>
> >>Henry,
> >>While I can concur with many of your points, I have to differ with some.
> >>"I" feel the death of the Rendezvous and 'BEAVER' trapping endeavors in
> >the
> >>Rocky Mountains was due to two primary reasons.  First, the change of
> >>fashion brought on by the "NEW " popularity of silk hats rather than the
> >>beaver that had been so fashionable for decades previous.  By 1840 the
> >price
> >>per pound of beaver fur had plummetted from its high just a few short
> >years
> >>earlier.  Second, with so many people after the same commodity (BEAVER),
> >it
> >>was not long before significant sections of the Rockies were denuded of
> >>beaver much as the Pacific West Coast had been depleted of sea otter.
> >>(Astors and many Russian fortunes).  By the 1860's we see the 'robe
> >trade'
> >>making significant depletions in the bison herds eventually bring this
> >>industry to it's demise.  Is this the fur trade?  Yes in it's broadest
> >>definition but very distinct from the Rocky Mountain fur trade.
> >>
> >>Another question raised was the image of the free trapper vs the
> >'company'
> >>man.  In reading biographies of so many of these mountain men, I'm
> >struck
> >>with how many different companies and trapping associations in which
> >these
> >>individuals participated.  Yes, Ashley and Andrew became Ashley and
> >Smith,
> >>then Smith, Sublette and Jackson and then Sublette and Fitzpatrick with
> >Jim
> >>and others thrown in there somewhere and this is just Rocky Mtn Fur Co..
> > To
> >>and from every Rendezvous, there were numerous comings and goings to and
> >>from civilization.  We see the upstarts like Wyeth and  Bonneville
> >jumping
> >>in the middle.  My point is, many of these so called companies were no
> >more
> >>than many of the trappers themselves making companies of THEMSELVES.
> >While
> >>seed monies were definitely needed for many of these upstarts, they were
> >>managed and staffed by those found in the Mountains.  So, free trapper
> >vs
> >>company man, I didn't dispute that most MAY have been company men but I
> >have
> >>a harder time with the Steel Mill analogy.  Yes, there is AFC, HBC and a
> >few
> >>others, but we also see cross employment in these concerns.  I guess
> >what
> >>I'm getting at is that there was a great deal of freedom for these men.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>RFC822 header
> >>-----------------------------------
> >>
> >>Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with
> >ESMTP
> >>  (SMTPD32-4.03) id AF4BA6B014E; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:03:07 MDT
> >>Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1)
> >> id 10BTNQ-0003Kh-00
> >> for [e-mail]; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:56:08 -0700
> >>Received: from [24.48.0.3] (helo=pi.adelphia.net)
> >> by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1)
> >> id 10BTNM-0003Jm-00
> >> for [e-mail]; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:56:04 -0700
> >>Received: from default (isp132-235.dov.adelphia.net [24.48.6.235])
> >> by pi.adelphia.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id TAA26531
> >> for <[e-mail]>; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 19:56:00 -0500
> >(EST)
> >>Message-ID: <000601be56ec$2b77e1a0$eb063018@default>
> >>From: "Salvatore P. Patti" <[e-mail]>
> >>To: <[e-mail]>
> >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
> >>Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 19:59:52 -0500
> >>MIME-Version: 1.0
> >>Content-Type: text/plain;
> >> charset="iso-8859-1"
> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >>X-Priority: 3
> >>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> >>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
> >>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
> >>Sender: [e-mail]
> >>Precedence: bulk
> >>Reply-To: [e-mail]
> >>X-UIDL: 915555753
> >>Status: U
> >>
> >
> >



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeffrey Volberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
Date: 13 Feb 1999 11:02:38 -0800

I agree that the concept of sustainable harvest is something that
civilized people are only now beginning to understand.  Despite my
earlier post, I do believe that primitive people had a generally
workable understanding of the concept.  Farmers and ranchers certainly
do.  One thing that frequently gets left out of the calculations,
however, is Ma Nature.  She can sure throw a lot of curveballs, in the
form of weather variations, drought, late freezes or extreme cold,
epidemics of disease among animal populations, fire, etc.  Have you ever
noticed how some years the country will be overrun with mice or ground
squirrels, and the next year they are hard to find?  How a mountain
meadow never seems to have the same flowers growing in the same place
two years in a row?  How frogs and snakes can be like the mice and
squirrels, with populations rising and falling over long cycles?  How
about deer populations?  I don't know if we will ever know enough to be
able to "manage" nature efficiently, but what a wonderful subject to
study!

Respectfully,

Jeff Volberg

Tom Roberts wrote:
>
> My belief is that only during the past century has man fully comprehended the concept
> of sustainable harvest.  We now know (at least some of us) the critical relationships
> between habitat, reproduction rates, food chain, etc.  I expect it is possible that
> during previous centuries there were some individuals that also shared this
> appreciation but only recently have we actually applied scientific principles to the
> "management" of game and we still to a rather poor job.
>
> Jim Colburn wrote:
>
> > Washtahay-
> > At 07:59 PM 2/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
> > >If more trappers toke the time and managed the animals the way the Indians
> > >did, There would have been more animals and the business would have lasted a
> > >hell of a lot longer then it did...
> >         The way the Indians "managed" the animals?  What do you mean?  Are we
> > talking the same people who hunted various animals to extinction?  The
> > tradition of wiping out species is one of mankind, not one exclusively
> > reserved to the evil white man.  Before the arrival of the white man, the
> > Indians wiped out 20 or 30 species that I can name off the top of my
> > head-and that was using stone and bone weapons.
> >         Project that forward to the damage they were doing with firearms and steel
> > knives.  Those furs were money-they could trade them for things they
> > couldn't make.  In essence, they were working overtime to buy things that
> > had a significant impact on their survival, let alone the quality of life
> > issues.
> >
> > >        The so called Hunters are nothing more then killers of a Great and
> > >noble beast ( Deer, Buffalo, Elk, Caribou, Bear and Beaver ). Indians toke
> > >what they needed not what they wanted...
> >         Hmmm.  So they drove herds of buffalo off cliffs-far more than they could
> > use, or even harvest in part-for what reason?  The use of surrounds was an
> > established custom before the arrival of the Europeans, as was the use of
> > nets to hunt birds, torching prairies to drive game, birdlime, poisoning
> > ponds, etc.
> >         For that matter, man is not the only animal to over-hunt.  Ever hear of
> > the damage a weasel will do in a henhouse?
> >         I once watched a pair of coyotes kill over thirty ducks, obviously far
> > more than they needed.  And do you think predators stop eating meat while
> > the prey is nursing young?
> > LongWalker c. du B.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous
Date: 13 Feb 1999 14:38:10 -0500

"Salvatore P. Patti" wrote:
>
> sorry for the html post i made

[snip]

"Saright."  Those who are newer to the net often don't understand
"netiquet" until it's explained.

Fred

--
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
http://www.best.com/~capn/thunder/willy.htm





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sidney Porter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
Date: 13 Feb 1999 14:17:08 -0800

Mr. Clark,

I teach elementary school.  I have also rendezvoued and studied the history
of the mountain men for quite a few years now.  No, I'm not an expert, but
even the most elementary history text will tell you that the demise of the
fur trade was largely due to the popularity of the silk hat.  It was
elegant, and less expensive than beaver felt.

While I'm sure the trappers depleated the beaver supply in the Rockies
somewhat, that really wasn't the problem.  There simply wasn't much demand
for their fur any longer. Therefore the price went so low that trapping
wasn't profitable.

Therefore, Mr. Williams was right on the mark.  However Mr. Patti certainly
has some valid beliefs and the right to state them.  I believe that you
might remember what happens when we ASSUME.

Humbly,
Sidney




>Mr. Patti,
>
>I suggest you spend a few more years studying the fur trade,
>native american history, and the relationships that have existed between
man
>and nature. I sure don't confess to know everything,
>on the contrary it seems the older I get the more aware of all the things I
>don't know. I can tell you I lived for seven years in a 12' by 16' cabin
>back  in the woods of northern WI with no electricity or running water
>and that experience helped me understand many things mainly
>because when I wasn't working I had a LOT of time to read and
>THINK. Studying archeology from paleo times to present has been one of the
>most enjoyable things for me and has really opened my eyes in a lot of
>respects. We are fortunate that there are many records
>of the fur trade and early exploration of this country. There is hardly no
>end of things to read and learn about.
>I can't see how some people can form such strong opinions after
>watching a few movies like "Dances with Wolves" and the like.
>
>From the Northwoods
>
>Tony Clark
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Salvatore P. Patti <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 6:48 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
>
>
>>Rick,
>>What you wrote makes a lot of senses. But the real fall of the fur traders
>>was the mass killing of the animals that made the business grow then fall.
>>If more trappers toke the time and managed the animals the way the Indians
>>did, There would have been more animals and the business would have lasted
>a
>>hell of a lot longer then it did... Or that is just the way I feel??? I
>feel
>>to manage the animal is more important the to make a buck... Just like I
>>think 200lbs of meat is way better then a 8+ point rack on a Deer....
>>
>>        The so called Hunters are nothing more then killers of a Great and
>>noble beast ( Deer, Buffalo, Elk, Caribou, Bear and Beaver ). Indians toke
>>what they needed not what they wanted... If I'm wrong in this thinking I'm
>>truly Sorry.... I know I'm know back in the time of the Mountain men/
>>Trapper, but that is the way I think. thank you for your time in reading
>>this ....
>>                                Sal______
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Rick Williams <[e-mail]>
>>To: '[e-mail]' <[e-mail]>
>>Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 7:22 PM
>>Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
>>
>>
>>Henry,
>>While I can concur with many of your points, I have to differ with some.
>>"I" feel the death of the Rendezvous and 'BEAVER' trapping endeavors in
the
>>Rocky Mountains was due to two primary reasons.  First, the change of
>>fashion brought on by the "NEW " popularity of silk hats rather than the
>>beaver that had been so fashionable for decades previous.  By 1840 the
>price
>>per pound of beaver fur had plummetted from its high just a few short
years
>>earlier.  Second, with so many people after the same commodity (BEAVER),
it
>>was not long before significant sections of the Rockies were denuded of
>>beaver much as the Pacific West Coast had been depleted of sea otter.
>>(Astors and many Russian fortunes).  By the 1860's we see the 'robe trade'
>>making significant depletions in the bison herds eventually bring this
>>industry to it's demise.  Is this the fur trade?  Yes in it's broadest
>>definition but very distinct from the Rocky Mountain fur trade.
>>
>>Another question raised was the image of the free trapper vs the 'company'
>>man.  In reading biographies of so many of these mountain men, I'm struck
>>with how many different companies and trapping associations in which these
>>individuals participated.  Yes, Ashley and Andrew became Ashley and Smith,
>>then Smith, Sublette and Jackson and then Sublette and Fitzpatrick with
Jim
>>and others thrown in there somewhere and this is just Rocky Mtn Fur Co..
>To
>>and from every Rendezvous, there were numerous comings and goings to and
>>from civilization.  We see the upstarts like Wyeth and  Bonneville
jumping
>>in the middle.  My point is, many of these so called companies were no
more
>>than many of the trappers themselves making companies of THEMSELVES.
While
>>seed monies were definitely needed for many of these upstarts, they were
>>managed and staffed by those found in the Mountains.  So, free trapper vs
>>company man, I didn't dispute that most MAY have been company men but I
>have
>>a harder time with the Steel Mill analogy.  Yes, there is AFC, HBC and a
>few
>>others, but we also see cross employment in these concerns.  I guess what
>>I'm getting at is that there was a great deal of freedom for these men.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
Date: 13 Feb 1999 13:41:04 -0700

Pat Quilter <[e-mail]> wrote:
>In my humble opinion (and that's all it is) although historically available,
>and thus theoretically "acceptable" I would bet the occurance of oilcloth in
>the Rocky Mountains during the fur trade was about zero.

I apologize for picking nits, but in fact oilcloth was much used in the
Rocky Mountain fur trade before the Mountain Man era. Voyageur canoes were
equipped with oilcloths to protect the cargo from spray. These oilcloths
_may_ have been used as shelters at the end of the day (draped over the edge
of an overturned canoe--see Frances Ann Hopkins' painting _Voyageurs at
Dawn_ to get the idea). I suspect that the oilcloths covered the cargo at
the end of the day, and the voyageurs used the canoe sails for shelters.

One other example, from the heart of the Rockies--on his 1793 trip from
Peace River to the Pacific Ocean, North West Company partner Alexander
Mackenzie notes that one day his men used an oilcloth as a 'screen' during a
brief rainshower.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Response to Heny's Post
Date: 13 Feb 1999 13:40:43 -0700

Tom Roberts <[e-mail]> wrote :

>My belief is that only during the past century has man fully comprehended
the concept
>of sustainable harvest.  We now know (at least some of us) the critical
relationships
>between habitat, reproduction rates, food chain, etc.  I expect it is
possible that
>during previous centuries there were some individuals that also shared this
>appreciation but only recently have we actually applied scientific
principles to the
>"management" of game and we still to a rather poor job.
Hear, hear! Also, "the past is not all one country", or one people, for that
matter. I'm sure that in some areas, Europeans did a fine job of managing
game. I understand that the Beaver Indians in the Canadian Rockies had a
fine system of game management before the fur traders came along in the
1790's--each family "owned" the game in a specific area. With the
introduction of the fur trade, however, and the intrusion of other tribes
into their area, this system broke down.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: 13 Feb 1999 16:44:47 -0500

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:  Enamel Cookware and dishes
Date: 13 Feb 1999 17:36:56 -0600

   >I did the research on graniteware and then published an article on
   >it for the Rendezvous Report a few issues back.  Not only was
   >graniteware not used during the fur trade, it is doubtful it was
   >used that much during the Civil War.  Certainly not common.  You
   >might want to read the article for full information and I even
   >wrote one the next issue on alternatives that are proper you can
   >use.  Don Keas
   >DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants
     Don, Rendezvous Report is a new one to me,who is the publisher,where do
I write,and MOST IMPORTANT what issues am I looking for! I use tinware,but
am always interested in period alternatives!

Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well

"They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin 1698

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
Date: 13 Feb 1999 16:32:20 -0800




> Angelas post got me thinking and It made me think of a hugely important role
> for an oilcloth.  Beaver packs.  As we know the Mtn men had to care for their
> packs of Fur constantly so they didnt rot or get eaten by bugs, and I would
> imagine that including the ability to shed water Linseed oil probably turns
> bugs sort of like Cedar oil etc.  Just a thought.

Your most onry' and disobedient hivernant.
Sega






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Enamel Cookware and dishes
Date: 13 Feb 1999 17:35:37 -0700

As Don has stated "doubtful it was used that much during the Civil War".

According to an old original Francis Bannerman Sons catalog dated 1868,
(they were founded in 1865 in New York, made their first purchases of
American Rev. War surplus from the government at that time or just before
opening for business).

In the 1868 catalog they show the "newest" eating item available to a modern
army "gray modeled graniteware" just released surplus from the United States
Union Army. Goes on to state how it (won't rust and is easily kept clean in
any mess [kitchen]. Available: graniteware plates @ $ .24 each, new or $ .18
each, good cond./ lot prices upon request, foreign governments use
letterhead).

Other than being a Union Civil War item they do not give any information
other than it being a "new item for the modern army".

On another note: don't always believe what is read in a catalog as being the
straight story, they are only repeating what they have been told by the
manufacturer. That story or time period could be off many years, decades and
so on, its the old story of; "you never hear a hawker cry rotten fish". I'm
sure you'll figure that out.

Buck
dba/ Clark & Sons Mercantile
http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/
__________________________________
-----Original Message-----


>I did the research on graniteware and then published an article on it for
>the Rendezvous Report a few issues back.  Not only was graniteware not
>used during the fur trade, it is doubtful it was used that much during the
>Civil War.  Certainly not common.  You might want to read the article for
>full information and I even wrote one the next issue on alternatives that
>are proper you can use.  Don Keas





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
Date: 13 Feb 1999 17:57:18 -0700

"Brucella melitensis", "Brucella abortus" & "Brucella suis" are three types
of organisms that started in Malta and British soldiers on that island
developed a disease later called Malta fever. Its related to contagious
abortion of cattle, like mentioned. It wasn't discovered in America until
1900 in dairy cattle, that's how humans get it with drinking and using milk.

"I hate to burst your bubble", but according to Colorado State University
before 1927 this disease was regarded as a curiosity fever when found in
humans and no records of it west of the Missisippi in domestic or wild
animals until after 1912. A little later than when the herds went down.

I called a professor that teaches at this vet college and he had seen the
same program and felt the information wasn't correct according to the years
and time frames mentioned. He did say they had purchased a copy of the film
and found many flaws, but didn't say much more than what I have written.

Buck
_______________
-----Original Message-----


>I hate to burst your bubble, but there is another theory on the demise of
>the buffalo. A couple of years ago there was a PBS documentary which dealt
>with the subject. On it there was a historian [I can't recall his name] who
>had the all the numbers and documentation to support the theory that it was
>not physically possible to haul enough powder and lead to the plains to
>exterminate the then massive herds of buffalo. His theory also was that the
>buffalo herds had grown so large that disease had become a major problem in
>the herds. The disease was BRUCELLOSIS.  It is a reproductive disease that
>causes the  females to abort their calves at about the middle of their
>gestation. It is also a very contagious disease. .......................




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Rocky Mountain trapper
Date: 13 Feb 1999 19:27:51 -0600

You are correct, there.  The Rockies were a clean (not pristine, but clean)
environment, and it beat city living by a mile.  The cities of the period
were real toilets (literally) to live in (some haven't changed much.)
Could be a good reason that trappers kept going back to the high country.

HBC

>Ah, but what a tough individual he was.  And what a great  environment he
>lived in for the most part.  Clean, pure, no roads , no fences, no poles stuck
>in the ground, fish and game abounding in many areas.  Many of these self
>reliant guys would not return to the 'States' for love or money.  I believe
>they loved their life. While I'm sure some of them were rotters, I admire the
>'mountain man'.
>        Dick

****************************************
Henry B. Crawford    Box 43191
Curator of History    Museum of Texas Tech University
[e-mail]    Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
806/742-2442     FAX [phone]
              Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because It's There  ******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Henry's Post
Date: 13 Feb 1999 19:53:05 -0600

Rick,

Actually, in a sense, you did agree with me.  The depletion of the beaver,
and the changes in the market forced the fur companies to rethink their
allocation of company funds into the rendezvous system and divert their
resources to less costly avenues of trade becaues the profits just weren't
there anymore.  Those economic factors (reduction in raw materials and
changing market trends) reduced fur trade profits and promped fur co. execs
to shift from the rondy to the tried and true trading post, where it all
began.

You are absolutely correct, that the robe trade was distinct from the RM
fur trade, but as you said, in the broad sense, it is still the fur trade,
which is exactly my point (remember what I said about historians thinking
in broad terms?  That's what I mean.)  Both of your points are well taken
and I agree with them, yet from a decidedly different angle.

As for the trappers becoming the "companies," that is true, yet my
attention was on the peon trapper, not the trapper-entrepreneur like Smith
and Jackson, etc., who themselves rise to company ownership through buyout
and combination.  These are a distinctly different class of men.  I have to
say that the vast majority of trappers were not.  You raised some good
points.  Gives us more to think about.  Thanks.

>Henry,
>While I can concur with many of your points, I have to differ with some. =
> "I" feel the death of the Rendezvous and 'BEAVER' trapping endeavors in =
>the Rocky Mountains was due to two primary reasons.  First, the change =
>of fashion brought on by the "NEW " popularity of silk hats rather than =
>the beaver that had been so fashionable for decades previous.  By 1840 =
>the price per pound of beaver fur had plummetted from its high just a =
>few short years earlier.  Second, with so many people after the same =
>commodity (BEAVER), it was not long before significant sections of the =
>Rockies were denuded of beaver much as the Pacific West Coast had been =
>depleted of sea otter. (Astors and many Russian fortunes).  By the =
>1860's we see the 'robe trade' making significant depletions in the =
>bison herds eventually bring this industry to it's demise.  Is this the =
>fur trade?  Yes in it's broadest definition but very distinct from the =
>Rocky Mountain fur trade.
>
>Another question raised was the image of the free trapper vs the =
>'company' man.  In reading biographies of so many of these mountain men, =
>I'm struck with how many different companies and trapping associations =
>in which these individuals participated.  Yes, Ashley and Andrew became =
>Ashley and Smith, then Smith, Sublette and Jackson and then Sublette and =
>Fitzpatrick with Jim and others thrown in there somewhere and this is =
>just Rocky Mtn Fur Co..  To and from every Rendezvous, there were =
>numerous comings and goings to and from civilization.  We see the =
>upstarts like Wyeth and  Bonneville  jumping in the middle.  My point =
>is, many of these so called companies were no more than many of the =
>trappers themselves making companies of THEMSELVES.  While seed monies =
>were definitely needed for many of these upstarts, they were managed and =
>staffed by those found in the Mountains.  So, free trapper vs company =
>man, I didn't dispute that most MAY have been company men but I have a =
>harder time with the Steel Mill analogy.  Yes, there is AFC, HBC and a =
>few others, but we also see cross employment in these concerns.  I guess =
>what I'm getting at is that there was a great deal of freedom for these =
>men. =20

****************************************
Henry B. Crawford    Box 43191
Curator of History    Museum of Texas Tech University
[e-mail]    Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
806/742-2442     FAX [phone]
              Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because It's There  ******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
Date: 13 Feb 1999 19:36:01 -0600

Buck,
  Way to go !  I appreciate the info.  I know my parents talk about the
effects of undulan fever [I'm not sure of that spelling] when they were
kids during the depression. My Dad was born in 1927. You are exactly right
about humans getting it from drinking milk that came from infected cows.
What about the theory that was put forth in the program that states there
was no possible way that much ammunition could have been hauled out there ?
I'm not claiming to be a expert on the subject, just repeating what I saw
on the program. I'll do some more research on Bucellosis. I have the
material here to do that. I should have done that before I shot my mouth
off. I just took the program as fact. A mistake I think we are all guilty
of from time to time. If you get any more info on it please pass it on.
  This must be the second mistake I've made. The first time I was mistaken.
I just thought I'd made a mistake. [ Just funnin guys ! ]
Pendleton

----------
> From: Barry Conner <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
> Date: Saturday, February 13, 1999 6:57 PM
>
> "Brucella melitensis", "Brucella abortus" & "Brucella suis" are three
types
> of organisms that started in Malta and British soldiers on that island
> developed a disease later called Malta fever. Its related to contagious
> abortion of cattle, like mentioned. It wasn't discovered in America until
> 1900 in dairy cattle, that's how humans get it with drinking and using
milk.
>
> "I hate to burst your bubble", but according to Colorado State University
> before 1927 this disease was regarded as a curiosity fever when found in
> humans and no records of it west of the Missisippi in domestic or wild
> animals until after 1912. A little later than when the herds went down.
>
> I called a professor that teaches at this vet college and he had seen the
> same program and felt the information wasn't correct according to the
years
> and time frames mentioned. He did say they had purchased a copy of the
film
> and found many flaws, but didn't say much more than what I have written.
>
> Buck
> _______________
> -----Original Message-----
> From: larry pendleton <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Saturday, February 13, 1999 11:12 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
>
>
> >I hate to burst your bubble, but there is another theory on the demise
of
> >the buffalo. A couple of years ago there was a PBS documentary which
dealt
> >with the subject. On it there was a historian [I can't recall his name]
who
> >had the all the numbers and documentation to support the theory that it
was
> >not physically possible to haul enough powder and lead to the plains to
> >exterminate the then massive herds of buffalo. His theory also was that
the
> >buffalo herds had grown so large that disease had become a major problem
in
> >the herds. The disease was BRUCELLOSIS.  It is a reproductive disease
that
> >causes the  females to abort their calves at about the middle of their
> >gestation. It is also a very contagious disease. .......................
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Mountain Men on History Channel
Date: 13 Feb 1999 20:05:59 -0600

Friends,

I got a call from Brian Coughlin, one of the producers from Greystone
Communications.  They do documentaries for the History Channel (Real West,
Civil War Journal, Tales of the Gun)  He said that the program some of us
participated in shooting last fall is scheduled for air on Saturday, March
20th.  I think they're simply calling it "The Mountain Men." They are using
me as a "talking head," along with Bob Utley and a couple of others.  On
behalf of Greystone, my thanks to Todd, Dean, and others who participated.
Brian also told me that they got Pernell Roberts to narrate.  They needed a
distinctive, familiar voice that didn't cost too much.  Sam Elliot (their
first choice) was too costly.  I, and a couple of others, sent them dozens
of suggestions, and they chose Roberts.  Look for it.  I hope it meets with
your approval.

Cheers,
HBC

****************************************
Henry B. Crawford    Box 43191
Curator of History    Museum of Texas Tech University
[e-mail]    Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
806/742-2442     FAX [phone]
              Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because It's There  ******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-list: Re: Response to Heny's Post
Date: 13 Feb 1999 20:46:17 -0600

Barry,

Agricultural Research Magazine says that Brucellosis has been
"A bane of cattle producers since the 1840's".

USDA Animal Plant Health Inspection Service says "Brucellosis
caused devastating losses to farmers in the US over the last century".

I have in front of me at this moment a book entitled "The Buffalo
Producers Guide To Management and Marketing". It says that
historically speaking there are " four major diseases that domestic
stock transmitted to bison, causing epidemic losses to the bison population:
hemorrhagic septicemia, brucellosis, malignant anthrax,
and tuberculosis."

It goes on to say that ,"Other enviromental hazards are quicksand,
bogs, flood, drought, raging fires, lightning, hurricane (it says hurricane)
drowning, blizzards, Or frozen ice over snow causing
starvation. Iced rivers and lakes are particular problems because
partially thawed or newly formed ice may hold the first and second buffalo
but with the herd moving as a close unit the combined weight
eventually breaks the ice and traps many animals"

One other interesting thing this book says is that " The stampede
is the "fatal flaw" of the bison . That instinct was and is today a major
cause of death and injury. In the natural balance of things perhaps
it was intended more to limit the herds than for the survival ."

All this being said, personally I feel that man and his rifle had to have
been one of, if not the primary exterminator of the bison.
A good book on the subject is "The Great Buffalo Hunt" by
Wayne Gard. I enjoyed it very much.

I might add that my wife is a veterinarian .

From the nortwoods, ( Northwoods Veterinary clinic )

Tony Clark




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Graniteware
Date: 13 Feb 1999 20:19:21 -0700


Ok, here it is.  The Rendezvous Report is published by Marlis Simms,
editor, Box 457, Glorieta,NM 87535.
My research was thru the Graniteware Society and phone calls to Evelyn
Welsh who is considered to be The expert on the subject.  Read the whole
article, but here are the main points.
Enamiling has been an art form since it's development in ancient China
and Egypt.  In the 1850's it went from art to commerce.
In 1799 Sven Rinman obtained a patent for two methods of enameling
kitchen utinsels.  In 1839 Thomas and Charles Clarke applied for an enameling
patent.  Both Clarke and Rinman patents were European.
The earliest American patent is to Charles Stumer in 1848.  Another to
George Holley for "The Improvment in Enameling Cast Iron in 1857.  Enameling
to the 1850's was done on cast iron, not tin ware.  The Niedringhaus
Brothers began stamping out tinware in 1862 and got a patent in 1876 for "The
Improvment of Enameling Sheet-Iron Ware".
The only way enanelware could have made it to the fur trade would have
had to have been European imports and I have never seen any lists of such
imports and I have not seen any lists of enamelware on goods either going to
Rendezvous or to fur trade posts.
If anyone can come up with some documentation that would differ from
this, I would appreciate seeing it, but this is what I have found so far and
it is not based on assumptions or conjecture.
Considering the American patent dates and Army issues during the Civil
War that list tin ware rather than enamelware is why I made the statement
that it would even be a stretch for use in Civil War reenactments.
So I will reiterate my statement that "there was no enamelware used
during the fur trade".  Not even William Drummond Stewart's outfit lists
enamelware and if anybody would have had it he would, especially at that late
date in the fur trade.
So if someone on this list can prove by research that what I have found
is wrong, please do so.  In the meqantime I will stich to tin, copper or
castiron.  I KNOW these are correct.  Don Keas





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: linda lawyer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Graniteware
Date: 13 Feb 1999 19:29:50 -0800 (PST)


Where can one obtain good quality tin ware?  The things we have
ordered were junk.  The coffee pot would never have held up on an open
fire. We sent it back. If some one has a good source please let me
know.
Readers might want to read the Fall 98 Museum of the Fur Trade
Quarterly...Mystery of the Wasted Meat.  There is some real good
information on the buffalo trade.  Thanks, Keith



---Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
>
> Ok, here it is.  The Rendezvous Report is published by Marlis Simms,
> editor, Box 457, Glorieta,NM 87535.
> My research was thru the Graniteware Society and phone calls to Evelyn
> Welsh who is considered to be The expert on the subject.  Read the
whole
> article, but here are the main points.
> Enamiling has been an art form since it's development in ancient China
> and Egypt.  In the 1850's it went from art to commerce.
> In 1799 Sven Rinman obtained a patent for two methods of enameling
> kitchen utinsels.  In 1839 Thomas and Charles Clarke applied for an
enameling
> patent.  Both Clarke and Rinman patents were European.
> The earliest American patent is to Charles Stumer in 1848.  Another to
> George Holley for "The Improvment in Enameling Cast Iron in 1857.
Enameling
> to the 1850's was done on cast iron, not tin ware.  The Niedringhaus
> Brothers began stamping out tinware in 1862 and got a patent in 1876
for "The
> Improvment of Enameling Sheet-Iron Ware".
> The only way enanelware could have made it to the fur trade would have
> had to have been European imports and I have never seen any lists of
such
> imports and I have not seen any lists of enamelware on goods either
going to
> Rendezvous or to fur trade posts.
> If anyone can come up with some documentation that would differ from
> this, I would appreciate seeing it, but this is what I have found so
far and
> it is not based on assumptions or conjecture.
> Considering the American patent dates and Army issues during the Civil
> War that list tin ware rather than enamelware is why I made the
statement
> that it would even be a stretch for use in Civil War reenactments.
> So I will reiterate my statement that "there was no enamelware used
> during the fur trade".  Not even William Drummond Stewart's outfit
lists
> enamelware and if anybody would have had it he would, especially at
that late
> date in the fur trade.
> So if someone on this list can prove by research that what I have
found
> is wrong, please do so.  In the meqantime I will stich to tin,
copper or
> castiron.  I KNOW these are correct.  Don Keas
>
>
>
>

==


Keith and Linda Lawyer
[e-mail]



_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Douglas  Hepner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
Date: 13 Feb 1999 21:27:47 -0600

    Many Indians trapped also. Not just the whites. The whites may have
exploited that, but the facts are they trapped, and hunted for furs also. I
have spent a lot of time researching the history of native Americans
(particularly plains). They were just as profit minded as the rest. I
beleive that Indians (as well as the trappers) used more of the animals
they killed and waisted less out of necessity for life. I think a lot of
this misconseption is T.V. related. I hope I don't offend anyone with this
note but research this and you will come to the same conclusion.

"Dull Hawk"


----------
> From: Salvatore P. Patti <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
> Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 11:42 PM
>
> Thank you for your input... I guess I really meant how people just waste
> things like Animals... I read somewhere that after the White Man come
here..
> Over 1,000,000 Buffalo where killed and over 10,000,000 Beaver.... I do
be
> leave that's the right numbers... I'm sorry I be leave in the true old
> way....( take only what you need).
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
> To: hist_text <[e-mail]>
> Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 11:20 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
>
>
> >Sal - I admire your sentiments, but have to disagree about the lack of
> >furs.  Not only did silk spell the end, but also the Nutria from So
> America.
> > They were very numerous and cheaper to export than the beaver here.
> >Lack of furs was not what caused the demise of the beaver fur trade.
Plain
> >old economics.
> >
> >DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants
> >
> >Salvatore P. Patti wrote:
> >>Rick,
> >>What you wrote makes a lot of senses. But the real fall of the fur
> >traders
> >>was the mass killing of the animals that made the business grow then
> >fall.
> >>If more trappers toke the time and managed the animals the way the
> >Indians
> >>did, There would have been more animals and the business would have
> >lasted a
> >>hell of a lot longer then it did... Or that is just the way I feel??? I
> >feel
> >>to manage the animal is more important the to make a buck... Just like
I
> >>think 200lbs of meat is way better then a 8+ point rack on a Deer....
> >>
> >>        The so called Hunters are nothing more then killers of a Great
> >and
> >>noble beast ( Deer, Buffalo, Elk, Caribou, Bear and Beaver ). Indians
> >toke
> >>what they needed not what they wanted... If I'm wrong in this thinking
> >I'm
> >>truly Sorry.... I know I'm know back in the time of the Mountain men/
> >>Trapper, but that is the way I think. thank you for your time in
reading
> >>this ....
> >>                                Sal______
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Rick Williams <[e-mail]>
> >>To: '[e-mail]' <[e-mail]>
> >>Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 7:22 PM
> >>Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
> >>
> >>
> >>Henry,
> >>While I can concur with many of your points, I have to differ with
some.
> >>"I" feel the death of the Rendezvous and 'BEAVER' trapping endeavors in
> >the
> >>Rocky Mountains was due to two primary reasons.  First, the change of
> >>fashion brought on by the "NEW " popularity of silk hats rather than
the
> >>beaver that had been so fashionable for decades previous.  By 1840 the
> >price
> >>per pound of beaver fur had plummetted from its high just a few short
> >years
> >>earlier.  Second, with so many people after the same commodity
(BEAVER),
> >it
> >>was not long before significant sections of the Rockies were denuded of
> >>beaver much as the Pacific West Coast had been depleted of sea otter.
> >>(Astors and many Russian fortunes).  By the 1860's we see the 'robe
> >trade'
> >>making significant depletions in the bison herds eventually bring this
> >>industry to it's demise.  Is this the fur trade?  Yes in it's broadest
> >>definition but very distinct from the Rocky Mountain fur trade.
> >>
> >>Another question raised was the image of the free trapper vs the
> >'company'
> >>man.  In reading biographies of so many of these mountain men, I'm
> >struck
> >>with how many different companies and trapping associations in which
> >these
> >>individuals participated.  Yes, Ashley and Andrew became Ashley and
> >Smith,
> >>then Smith, Sublette and Jackson and then Sublette and Fitzpatrick with
> >Jim
> >>and others thrown in there somewhere and this is just Rocky Mtn Fur
Co..
> > To
> >>and from every Rendezvous, there were numerous comings and goings to
and
> >>from civilization.  We see the upstarts like Wyeth and  Bonneville
> >jumping
> >>in the middle.  My point is, many of these so called companies were no
> >more
> >>than many of the trappers themselves making companies of THEMSELVES.
> >While
> >>seed monies were definitely needed for many of these upstarts, they
were
> >>managed and staffed by those found in the Mountains.  So, free trapper
> >vs
> >>company man, I didn't dispute that most MAY have been company men but I
> >have
> >>a harder time with the Steel Mill analogy.  Yes, there is AFC, HBC and
a
> >few
> >>others, but we also see cross employment in these concerns.  I guess
> >what
> >>I'm getting at is that there was a great deal of freedom for these men.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>RFC822 header
> >>-----------------------------------
> >>
> >>Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com
with
> >ESMTP
> >>  (SMTPD32-4.03) id AF4BA6B014E; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:03:07 MDT
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> >> by pi.adelphia.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id TAA26531
> >> for <[e-mail]>; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 19:56:00 -0500
> >(EST)
> >>Message-ID: <000601be56ec$2b77e1a0$eb063018@default>
> >>From: "Salvatore P. Patti" <[e-mail]>
> >>To: <[e-mail]>
> >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
> >>Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 19:59:52 -0500
> >>MIME-Version: 1.0
> >>Content-Type: text/plain;
> >> charset="iso-8859-1"
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> >>
> >
> >
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
Date: 14 Feb 1999 06:59:05 -0700

Larry,
Not seeing the show its hard to reply to your question, but have read that
the trains coming from back east with the gentlemen shooters were packed.
According to Wallace Kansas old timers, for $10.00 one person leaving
Chicago could travel to Walace, shoot a buffalo, travel back to Chicago
pickup a green robe, all within a work week. A friend that raises buffalo in
Wallace has several dumps on his property that are on raised ground where
these people would stand to shoot from, he has found unbelieveable amounts
of old brass cases from the Sharpes to Henry rimfires, plus a truck load of
lead soldered tin cans. They would have full blown parties while they were
putting down these animals. According to some reports there would be several
trains waiting for the return train to clear the track on single spur lines.
For Wallace Kansas it died when the buffalo did and now its just a small
dried up little town, the rail spur was even pulled up after a ten year
period.

I agree we take too much of the stuff we see in the movies and on TV as
being correct, they doll it up to get ratings, real life events are pretty
boring most of the time.

Buck

-----Original Message-----


>Buck,
>  Way to go !  I appreciate the info.  I know my parents talk about the
>effects of undulan fever [I'm not sure of that spelling] when they were
>kids during the depression. My Dad was born in 1927. You are exactly right
>about humans getting it from drinking milk that came from infected cows.
>What about the theory that was put forth in the program that states there
>was no possible way that much ammunition could have been hauled out there ?
>I'm not claiming to be a expert on the subject, just repeating what I saw
>on the program. I'll do some more research on Bucellosis. I have the
>material here to do that. I should have done that before I shot my mouth
>off. I just took the program as fact. A mistake I think we are all guilty
>of from time to time. If you get any more info on it please pass it on.
>  This must be the second mistake I've made. The first time I was mistaken.
>I just thought I'd made a mistake. [ Just funnin guys ! ]
>Pendleton
>
>----------
>> From: Barry Conner <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail]
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
>> Date: Saturday, February 13, 1999 6:57 PM
>>
>> "Brucella melitensis", "Brucella abortus" & "Brucella suis" are three
>types
>> of organisms that started in Malta and British soldiers on that island
>> developed a disease later called Malta fever. Its related to contagious
>> abortion of cattle, like mentioned. It wasn't discovered in America until
>> 1900 in dairy cattle, that's how humans get it with drinking and using
>milk.
>>
>> "I hate to burst your bubble", but according to Colorado State University
>> before 1927 this disease was regarded as a curiosity fever when found in
>> humans and no records of it west of the Missisippi in domestic or wild
>> animals until after 1912. A little later than when the herds went down.
>>
>> I called a professor that teaches at this vet college and he had seen the
>> same program and felt the information wasn't correct according to the
>years
>> and time frames mentioned. He did say they had purchased a copy of the
>film
>> and found many flaws, but didn't say much more than what I have written.
>>
>> Buck
>> _______________
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: larry pendleton <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> Date: Saturday, February 13, 1999 11:12 AM
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
>>
>>
>> >I hate to burst your bubble, but there is another theory on the demise
>of
>> >the buffalo. A couple of years ago there was a PBS documentary which
>dealt
>> >with the subject. On it there was a historian [I can't recall his name]
>who
>> >had the all the numbers and documentation to support the theory that it
>was
>> >not physically possible to haul enough powder and lead to the plains to
>> >exterminate the then massive herds of buffalo. His theory also was that
>the
>> >buffalo herds had grown so large that disease had become a major problem
>in
>> >the herds. The disease was BRUCELLOSIS.  It is a reproductive disease
>that
>> >causes the  females to abort their calves at about the middle of their
>> >gestation. It is also a very contagious disease. .......................
>>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-list: Re: Response to Heny's Post
Date: 14 Feb 1999 07:05:32 -0700

I just repeated what I was told by CSU personal, seeing how the have dealt
with problems in the Rockies since the early 1920's, I would think they
would have some knowledge of what was going on in the area, believe they
were rated as one of the top 5 veterinarian colleges in the states a few
years ago!

Buck
_________
-----Original Message-----


>Barry,
>
>Agricultural Research Magazine says that Brucellosis has been
>"A bane of cattle producers since the 1840's".
>
>USDA Animal Plant Health Inspection Service says "Brucellosis
>caused devastating losses to farmers in the US over the last century".
>
>I have in front of me at this moment a book entitled "The Buffalo
>Producers Guide To Management and Marketing". It says that
>historically speaking there are " four major diseases that domestic
>stock transmitted to bison, causing epidemic losses to the bison
population:
>hemorrhagic septicemia, brucellosis, malignant anthrax,
>and tuberculosis."
>
>It goes on to say that ,"Other enviromental hazards are quicksand,
>bogs, flood, drought, raging fires, lightning, hurricane (it says
hurricane)
>drowning, blizzards, Or frozen ice over snow causing
>starvation. Iced rivers and lakes are particular problems because
>partially thawed or newly formed ice may hold the first and second buffalo
>but with the herd moving as a close unit the combined weight
>eventually breaks the ice and traps many animals"
>
>One other interesting thing this book says is that " The stampede
>is the "fatal flaw" of the bison . That instinct was and is today a major
>cause of death and injury. In the natural balance of things perhaps
>it was intended more to limit the herds than for the survival ."
>
>All this being said, personally I feel that man and his rifle had to have
>been one of, if not the primary exterminator of the bison.
>A good book on the subject is "The Great Buffalo Hunt" by
>Wayne Gard. I enjoyed it very much.
>
>I might add that my wife is a veterinarian .
>
>From the nortwoods, ( Northwoods Veterinary clinic )
>
>Tony Clark
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Graniteware
Date: 14 Feb 1999 10:58:33 EST

Since they didn't have enamel ware and coffee and tea were drank.  What did
they use for coffee pots?  I have seen copper tea pots, but what about coffee
pots?

                        TrapRJoe



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "stitchinscot" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Graniteware
Date: 14 Feb 1999 13:53:28 -0600

One word.........tin.........Look in muzzleloader mag for suppliers.
Long John  #l677
-----Original Message-----


>Since they didn't have enamel ware and coffee and tea were drank.  What did
>they use for coffee pots?  I have seen copper tea pots, but what about
coffee
>pots?
>
> TrapRJoe
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Graniteware
Date: 14 Feb 1999 15:07:33 EST

Copper was used to make coffeepots as well. Check out places like Goose Bay
workshops (Peter Goebels)
<A HREF="http://www.teleport.com/~walking/goosebay/">Goose Bay Workshops</A>
and also Westminster Forge.  They both produce beautiful, useable, destined to
be heirloom goods.      'Barney Fife'



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous
Date: 14 Feb 1999 15:20:52 EST

Sal, Heres a few:
Feb 20-22 Jefferson County Long Rifle Rendezvous, Ramseytown, PA.  Contact Dan
Garvey 814.849.9671 or Dave Shields 814.856.2503
June 24-27 Primitive Rendezvous, Emlenton, PA.  Contact Pete Smelter
412.486.5864
September 11-18 Great North American Rendezvous, Ft. Loudoun, PA. Contact
www.cvn.net/~fortloudon/1998prog.htm

A couple of very handy publications for finding events are:
Smoke & Fire News PO 166 Grand Rapids, OH 43522 $18.00 for 12 issues.
Territorial Dispatch #324 Livestock Exchange Building, 4701 Marion Street,
Denver, CO 80216
Both have web sites as well.  Hope this helps.  'Barney Fife'





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: greg n bosen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Men on History Channel
Date: 14 Feb 1999 23:16:26 -0500

do you happen to know the time the the showing???

greg b



On Sat, 13 Feb 1999 20:05:59 -0600 "Henry B. Crawford"
<[e-mail]> writes:
>Friends,
>
>I got a call from Brian Coughlin, one of the producers from Greystone
>Communications.  They do documentaries for the History Channel (Real
>West,
>Civil War Journal, Tales of the Gun)  He said that the program some of
>us
>participated in shooting last fall is scheduled for air on Saturday,
>March
>20th.  I think they're simply calling it "The Mountain Men." They are
>using
>me as a "talking head," along with Bob Utley and a couple of others.
>On
>behalf of Greystone, my thanks to Todd, Dean, and others who
>participated.
>Brian also told me that they got Pernell Roberts to narrate.  They
>needed a
>distinctive, familiar voice that didn't cost too much.  Sam Elliot
>(their
>first choice) was too costly.  I, and a couple of others, sent them
>dozens
>of suggestions, and they chose Roberts.  Look for it.  I hope it meets
>with
>your approval.
>
>Cheers,
>HBC
>
>****************************************
>Henry B. Crawford    Box 43191
>Curator of History    Museum of Texas Tech University
>[e-mail]    Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>806/742-2442     FAX [phone]
>              Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
>******  Living History . . . Because It's There  ******
>
>
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Men on History Channel
Date: 15 Feb 1999 00:12:34 EST

I've been told it will air in the 8 or 9 p.m. slot on March 20th.

Todd Glover



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mill, Kirk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Rendezvous
Date: 15 Feb 1999 08:58:42 -0500

Please, stop yelling. I haven't even had my first cup of coffee. If you want
a list of events in PA, you should join the PA Federation of Black Powder
Shooters. They publish a booklet listing the events for all the clubs for
the year.
PA Federation Of Black Powder Shooters
PO Box 356
New Cumberland, PA 17070-0356
One year Membership $10.00


> Does anyone know of any Rendezvous on the East Coast??? ( New York,
> Pennsylvania, New Jersey )
> Peace Be With You Always!



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
Date: 15 Feb 1999 11:32:07 -0800

Well said! The Voyageurs are an often-overlooked material culture for those
who think they are only interested in the "free trapper"!
Pat Quilter.

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 1999 12:41 PM


Pat Quilter <[e-mail]> wrote:
>In my humble opinion (and that's all it is) although historically
available,
>and thus theoretically "acceptable" I would bet the occurance of oilcloth
in
>the Rocky Mountains during the fur trade was about zero.

I apologize for picking nits, but in fact oilcloth was much used in the
Rocky Mountain fur trade before the Mountain Man era. Voyageur canoes were
equipped with oilcloths to protect the cargo from spray. These oilcloths
_may_ have been used as shelters at the end of the day (draped over the edge

of an overturned canoe--see Frances Ann Hopkins' painting _Voyageurs at
Dawn_ to get the idea). I suspect that the oilcloths covered the cargo at
the end of the day, and the voyageurs used the canoe sails for shelters.

One other example, from the heart of the Rockies--on his 1793 trip from
Peace River to the Pacific Ocean, North West Company partner Alexander
Mackenzie notes that one day his men used an oilcloth as a 'screen' during a

brief rainshower.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo extinction
Date: 15 Feb 1999 11:51:03 -0800

Regarding the assertion that it would have required an unreasonable amount
of ammunition to have directly killed off the buffalo:
Let's play with the old calculator here. I will use round numbers in all the
following assumptions, just to get a feel for the magnitude of the problem:
Assume, 70 million buffalo killed in 20 years.
Assume a 1-oz lead bullet expended per buffalo (rather large but allows for
misses).
This requires 70,000,000 oz of lead, or 4.375 million lbs, or 2187 tons.
At first glance, this does seem like a LOT of lead. Dividing by 20 years,
it's109 tons a year.
Still seems like a lot, but way less than one train load.
What if each market hunter carried 100lbs of lead (with requisite powder),
which obviously assumes a wagon-based expedition? Then we would have 2187
hunters in action for 20 years.
All these numbers "seem" rather high, but certainly POSSIBLE.
Also, note that the weight of robes carried back clearly outweighs the
ammunition by 300 to 1 or more, so there's no way to claim that 19th century
transportation systems were not up to the task.
All this said, if disease was a factor, you can bet the rotting carcasses
contributed to it.
I didn't see the show or the exact nature of the claim that it couldn't have
happened, but sometimes you wonder if these historians ever break out a
calculator.
Humbly submitted
Patrick Quilter




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo extinction
Date: 15 Feb 1999 15:11:07 -0700

Well said.  Not to mention the fact that all the supplies were brought in
on a regular basis, not once a year or so.  Also, from reports I have
read, the army furnished a lot of ammunition to the hunters knowing to get
rid of the buffs would get rid of the Indians.  Makes you wonder if the PHD
historians have any idea what the real world is.

DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants

Pat Quilter wrote:
>Regarding the assertion that it would have required an unreasonable
amount
>of ammunition to have directly killed off the buffalo:
>Let's play with the old calculator here. I will use round numbers in all
the
>following assumptions, just to get a feel for the magnitude of the
problem:
>Assume, 70 million buffalo killed in 20 years.
>Assume a 1-oz lead bullet expended per buffalo (rather large but allows
for
>misses).
>This requires 70,000,000 oz of lead, or 4.375 million lbs, or 2187 tons.
>At first glance, this does seem like a LOT of lead. Dividing by 20
years,
>it's109 tons a year.
>Still seems like a lot, but way less than one train load.
>What if each market hunter carried 100lbs of lead (with requisite
powder),
>which obviously assumes a wagon-based expedition? Then we would have
2187
>hunters in action for 20 years.
>All these numbers "seem" rather high, but certainly POSSIBLE.
>Also, note that the weight of robes carried back clearly outweighs the
>ammunition by 300 to 1 or more, so there's no way to claim that 19th
century
>transportation systems were not up to the task.
>All this said, if disease was a factor, you can bet the rotting
carcasses
>contributed to it.
>I didn't see the show or the exact nature of the claim that it couldn't
have
>happened, but sometimes you wonder if these historians ever break out a
>calculator.
>Humbly submitted
>Patrick Quilter
>
>
>
>
>RFC822 header
>-----------------------------------
>
>Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with
ESMTP
>  (SMTPD32-4.03) id AE6D80B00C6; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:07:09 MDT
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>From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
>To: "Mtnman Forum (E-mail)" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo extinction
>Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 11:51:03 -0800
>MIME-Version: 1.0
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo extinction
Date: 15 Feb 1999 17:22:11 -0600

Another aspect of the disappearance of the buffalo has to do with
the fact that there normal patterns of existence had been altered
so greatly by the inflow of people from the east.
The immense herds that had existed at one time were there
because the balance of nature enabled them to be there. The need for grass
and water kept them on the move much of the time.They also, to
a certain extent, had seasonal migrations.
It seems possible to me that when the herds began to be reduced
in numbers and the areas where they could go and be left unmolested
became fewer and fewer, the herds may have been unable to cope
with this.
Sometimes its easier to upset the balance of nature than it would
appear.

From the northwoods,

Tony Clark
-----Original Message-----


>Well said.  Not to mention the fact that all the supplies were brought in
>on a regular basis, not once a year or so.  Also, from reports I have
>read, the army furnished a lot of ammunition to the hunters knowing to get
>rid of the buffs would get rid of the Indians.  Makes you wonder if the PHD
>historians have any idea what the real world is.
>
>DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants
>
>Pat Quilter wrote:
>>Regarding the assertion that it would have required an unreasonable
>amount
>>of ammunition to have directly killed off the buffalo:
>>Let's play with the old calculator here. I will use round numbers in all
>the
>>following assumptions, just to get a feel for the magnitude of the
>problem:
>>Assume, 70 million buffalo killed in 20 years.
>>Assume a 1-oz lead bullet expended per buffalo (rather large but allows
>for
>>misses).
>>This requires 70,000,000 oz of lead, or 4.375 million lbs, or 2187 tons.
>>At first glance, this does seem like a LOT of lead. Dividing by 20
>years,
>>it's109 tons a year.
>>Still seems like a lot, but way less than one train load.
>>What if each market hunter carried 100lbs of lead (with requisite
>powder),
>>which obviously assumes a wagon-based expedition? Then we would have
>2187
>>hunters in action for 20 years.
>>All these numbers "seem" rather high, but certainly POSSIBLE.
>>Also, note that the weight of robes carried back clearly outweighs the
>>ammunition by 300 to 1 or more, so there's no way to claim that 19th
>century
>>transportation systems were not up to the task.
>>All this said, if disease was a factor, you can bet the rotting
>carcasses
>>contributed to it.
>>I didn't see the show or the exact nature of the claim that it couldn't
>have
>>happened, but sometimes you wonder if these historians ever break out a
>>calculator.
>>Humbly submitted
>>Patrick Quilter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>RFC822 header
>>-----------------------------------
>>
>>Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with
>ESMTP
>>  (SMTPD32-4.03) id AE6D80B00C6; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:07:09 MDT
>>Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1)
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>>Message-ID: <04059F2BE306D2118F1C00A0C90CD6704514EC@NT4_SERVER>
>>From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
>>To: "Mtnman Forum (E-mail)" <[e-mail]>
>>Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo extinction
>>Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 11:51:03 -0800
>>MIME-Version: 1.0
>>X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0)
>>Content-Type: text/plain;
>> charset="iso-8859-1"
>>Sender: [e-mail]
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>>X-UIDL: 915555823
>>Status: U
>>
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo extinction
Date: 15 Feb 1999 17:33:40 -0700

Tony,
I would think this is closer an idea than any mentioned so far, look what
happens to the deer and elk herds as new developments spring up. Some move
and others just disappear. In Colorado we are having problems with the
decline of the mule deer with loosing their summer and winter ranges, as
well as developing lung problems with dirty air from all the vehicles. Sad

Buck
_________
-----Original Message-----


>Another aspect of the disappearance of the buffalo has to do with
>the fact that there normal patterns of existence had been altered
>so greatly by the inflow of people from the east.
>The immense herds that had existed at one time were there
>because the balance of nature enabled them to be there. The need for grass
>and water kept them on the move much of the time.They also, to
>a certain extent, had seasonal migrations.
>It seems possible to me that when the herds began to be reduced
>in numbers and the areas where they could go and be left unmolested
>became fewer and fewer, the herds may have been unable to cope
>with this.
>Sometimes its easier to upset the balance of nature than it would
>appear.
>
>From the northwoods,
>
>Tony Clark
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
>To: hist_text <[e-mail]>
>Date: Monday, February 15, 1999 3:53 PM
>Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo extinction
>
>
>>Well said.  Not to mention the fact that all the supplies were brought in
>>on a regular basis, not once a year or so.  Also, from reports I have
>>read, the army furnished a lot of ammunition to the hunters knowing to get
>>rid of the buffs would get rid of the Indians.  Makes you wonder if the
PHD
>>historians have any idea what the real world is.
>>
>>DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants
>>
>>Pat Quilter wrote:
>>>Regarding the assertion that it would have required an unreasonable
>>amount
>>>of ammunition to have directly killed off the buffalo:
>>>Let's play with the old calculator here. I will use round numbers in all
>>the
>>>following assumptions, just to get a feel for the magnitude of the
>>problem:
>>>Assume, 70 million buffalo killed in 20 years.
>>>Assume a 1-oz lead bullet expended per buffalo (rather large but allows
>>for
>>>misses).
>>>This requires 70,000,000 oz of lead, or 4.375 million lbs, or 2187 tons.
>>>At first glance, this does seem like a LOT of lead. Dividing by 20
>>years,
>>>it's109 tons a year.
>>>Still seems like a lot, but way less than one train load.
>>>What if each market hunter carried 100lbs of lead (with requisite
>>powder),
>>>which obviously assumes a wagon-based expedition? Then we would have
>>2187
>>>hunters in action for 20 years.
>>>All these numbers "seem" rather high, but certainly POSSIBLE.
>>>Also, note that the weight of robes carried back clearly outweighs the
>>>ammunition by 300 to 1 or more, so there's no way to claim that 19th
>>century
>>>transportation systems were not up to the task.
>>>All this said, if disease was a factor, you can bet the rotting
>>carcasses
>>>contributed to it.
>>>I didn't see the show or the exact nature of the claim that it couldn't
>>have
>>>happened, but sometimes you wonder if these historians ever break out a
>>>calculator.
>>>Humbly submitted
>>>Patrick Quilter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>RFC822 header
>>>-----------------------------------
>>>
>>>Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with
>>ESMTP
>>>  (SMTPD32-4.03) id AE6D80B00C6; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:07:09 MDT
>>>Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1)
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>>>Message-ID: <04059F2BE306D2118F1C00A0C90CD6704514EC@NT4_SERVER>
>>>From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
>>>To: "Mtnman Forum (E-mail)" <[e-mail]>
>>>Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo extinction
>>>Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 11:51:03 -0800
>>>MIME-Version: 1.0
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David A Miller <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #239 (Tin ware)
Date: 15 Feb 1999 18:15:30 -0700

You could check with Jack Powers at "Deer Creek Tinshop" in Utah number
is 801-654-2626.

He does some great work, and I have had no problems with what he has
done.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: terry l landis <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: my first equipped ronde
Date: 15 Feb 1999 18:30:27 -0800

well i went to my first ronde at which i had all my goods in possession.
drop front breeches, onasburg shirt covering my hand made linen shirt,
new rifle and a flinter at that,and a  pair of hand sewn side seam elk
skin mocc's !  whew , that's a mouth full !
  to make a long story short. i enjoyed myself completely. i also learned
a few good lessons, the most important first
1. always check and adjust double set triggers before going on the range.
i don't set it till i have it pointed in the direction of my shot , but
it was a surprise none the less.
2. soft sole mocc's and large gravel don't mix
3.always meet nature on the front step, when yer wearin drop front
britches, if you wait for her to come a knockin yer pants might be a
soppin.
YMHS, Terry L Landis

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: terry l landis <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: hard sole mocc's
Date: 15 Feb 1999 18:35:05 -0800

what materiel was most favored in the construction of hard sole mocc's? i
have several books but none seem to give a specific kind of materiel to
use. also what is parfleche?
any good books or ideas would be greatly appreciated.
YMHS, Terry L Landis

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sidney Porter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hard sole mocc's
Date: 15 Feb 1999 21:04:06 -0800

A parfletch is a container made from rawhide.  They can be almost any shape,
the most common being much like a large folded envelope.

In the southwest,  heavy rawhide was also used for moccasin sloes, though I
don't particularly care for it as it loses its shape and gets slick when
wet.

Stargazer
-----Original Message-----


>what materiel was most favored in the construction of hard sole mocc's? i
>have several books but none seem to give a specific kind of materiel to
>use. also what is parfleche?
>any good books or ideas would be greatly appreciated.
>YMHS, Terry L Landis
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: SALT PETER
Date: 15 Feb 1999 21:11:06 -0600

Ok boys and girls.  How do you make salt peter ? A buddy of mine who
aspires to make his own black powder, wants to make it all from scratch. He
may be a half bubble off plumb, but it is a good question.  Does anybody
have any idea how to make the stuff ?
Pendleton




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sidney Porter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: my first equipped ronde
Date: 15 Feb 1999 21:10:10 -0800

Terry,
I'm glad that you enjoyed most things about your first doins.  It just keeps
getting better and better.

Being female, I wouldn't know about the dropfronts, but I can imagine it
takes a while to undo all those buttons.  As for the mocs, it helps to put a
piece of harder, thick leather, about like you'd make a belt from, inside
then like an insole.  For added comfort, a layer of sheepskin with the fur
on is nice.

Take care,
Stargazer


-----Original Message-----


>well i went to my first ronde at which i had all my goods in possession.
>drop front breeches, onasburg shirt covering my hand made linen shirt,
>new rifle and a flinter at that,and a  pair of hand sewn side seam elk
>skin mocc's !  whew , that's a mouth full !
>  to make a long story short. i enjoyed myself completely. i also learned
>a few good lessons, the most important first
>1. always check and adjust double set triggers before going on the range.
>i don't set it till i have it pointed in the direction of my shot , but
>it was a surprise none the less.
>2. soft sole mocc's and large gravel don't mix
>3.always meet nature on the front step, when yer wearin drop front
>britches, if you wait for her to come a knockin yer pants might be a
>soppin.
>YMHS, Terry L Landis
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: my first equipped ronde
Date: 15 Feb 1999 19:15:31 -0800



terry l landis wrote:

> well i went to my first ronde at which i had all my goods in possession.
>
> 3.always meet nature on the front step, when yer wearin drop front
> britches, if you wait for her to come a knockin yer pants might be a
> soppin.
> YMHS, Terry L Landis

Terry,
You care to elaborate a bit on #3 above? Sounds like the makings of a
Mountain Name. <G> I remain.......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>

>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hard sole mocc's
Date: 15 Feb 1999 19:21:06 -0800



terry l landis wrote:

> what materiel was most favored in the construction of hard sole mocc's?

Terry,

That is a hard question to answer as you have found out. Raw Hide works as
has been pointed out but in your country it will be so much slime in about 10
minutes. <G> Although there may not be any clear historical documentation for
it, I recommend the use of any bark or oil tanned leather as a good start to
making mocs that will deal with sharp ground.

The plains moc may have had extra soles but probably of just more layers of
brain tan. That is an option but it will only help so much and then you just
have to get your feet in shape. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: SALT PETER
Date: 15 Feb 1999 19:25:42 -0800



larry pendleton wrote:

> Ok boys and girls.  How do you make salt peter ? A buddy of mine who
> aspires to make his own black powder, wants to make it all from scratch. He
> may be a half bubble off plumb, but it is a good question.  Does anybody
> have any idea how to make the stuff ?
> Pendleton

Pendelton,

You called it when you said he may be half a bubble off. Several bricks shy of
a full load, is a good one. Doesn't have both oars in the water, is another
one. Yea, I know how to make it but the process of making Black Powder is
really too dangerous and results in less than a satisfactory product to be
worth the danger and effort. So I ain't gona tell. I remain.......

Otherwise-
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Laurel huber <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Graniteware
Date: 15 Feb 1999 19:44:44 -0800

Dear Joe,
    I doubt that any trapper or Fur Brigade brought a coffee POT along with 'em.
I'm referring to a flared bottomed, pitcher-shaped boiler with a lid, handle and
bail.  Like the kind cowboys use in all those movies. It was just too specific an
item to pack along.  Coffee and tea kettles shaped like that did exist but stayed
in the settlements indoors.  A coffee kettle(a tea kettle boils water, a tea pot
brews tea in water)in the mountains would have been a straight-sided can-shape
with a bail.  It could be used for coffee, tea, water, stew, or soup.  There are
nice sketches of them by Miller in his works: "Indians Encamped on the Eau Sucre
River" and "Our Camp".  If you buy one by catalog from Jarnigin, it's called an
"1820 Period Coffee Pot" and is copied from a dig from a 6th US Infantry camp
dated 1820.  Made of  heavy tin.  Works good for coffee and whatever.

Larry "Shoots-the-Prairie" Huber

[e-mail] wrote:

> Since they didn't have enamel ware and coffee and tea were drank.  What did
> they use for coffee pots?  I have seen copper tea pots, but what about coffee
> pots?
>
>                                                 TrapRJoe






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: SALT PETER
Date: 15 Feb 1999 19:56:34 -0800

I recall this topic being covered in a Foxfire volume (possible Vol 5???).
The hard part is making the saltpeter, although the sulfur and fine-grain
charcoal are non trivial problems as well. The historic process involved
digging up and leaching the nitrates which form at the bottom of dung piles
(other sources include the guano in bat caves). The mixing, milling, corning
etc of powder is no doubt dangerous as noted previously. Foxfire reported
that their process yielded a somewhat weak and sooty powder - I guess it's
quite an accomplishment if it worked at all, and one can see why the French
and English stuff was preferred over locally made product in colonial times.
I remember the leaching system was at least as complicated as setting up one
of those sluice troughs gold panners use to screen their their diggings.
Pat Quilter

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, February 15, 1999 7:11 PM


Ok boys and girls.  How do you make salt peter ? A buddy of mine who
aspires to make his own black powder, wants to make it all from scratch. He
may be a half bubble off plumb, but it is a good question.  Does anybody
have any idea how to make the stuff ?
Pendleton




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: SALT PETER
Date: 15 Feb 1999 23:10:18 -0500

Larry,

 If your friend is "DEAD" set on making his own powder, see if you can have
his good stuff first, and get it in WRITING....

Dennis

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-
>-----Original Message-----
>From: larry pendleton [mailto:[e-mail]]
>Sent: Monday, February 15, 1999 7:11 PM
>To: mountain lists
>Subject: MtMan-List: SALT PETER
>
>
>Ok boys and girls.  How do you make salt peter ? A buddy of mine who
>aspires to make his own black powder, wants to make it all from scratch. He
>may be a half bubble off plumb, but it is a good question.  Does anybody
>have any idea how to make the stuff ?
>Pendleton
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: my first equipped ronde
Date: 15 Feb 1999 23:45:22 -0500

heh... Soppin Landis... yeppers... it do sorta have a ring to it...


-----Original Message-----


>
>
>terry l landis wrote:
>
>> well i went to my first ronde at which i had all my goods in possession.
>>
>> 3.always meet nature on the front step, when yer wearin drop front
>> britches, if you wait for her to come a knockin yer pants might be a
>> soppin.
>> YMHS, Terry L Landis
>
>Terry,
>You care to elaborate a bit on #3 above? Sounds like the makings of a
>Mountain Name. <G> I remain.......
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>>
>
>>
>>
>
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: SALT PETER
Date: 15 Feb 1999 23:53:43 -0500

Roger Lahti wrote:
>
> larry pendleton wrote:
>
> > Ok boys and girls.  How do you make salt peter ? A buddy of mine who
> > aspires to make his own black powder, wants to make it all from scratch. He
> > may be a half bubble off plumb, but it is a good question.  Does anybody
> > have any idea how to make the stuff ?
> > Pendleton
>
> Pendelton,
>
> You called it when you said he may be half a bubble off. Several bricks shy of
> a full load, is a good one. Doesn't have both oars in the water, is another
> one. Yea, I know how to make it but the process of making Black Powder is
> really too dangerous and results in less than a satisfactory product to be
> worth the danger and effort. So I ain't gona tell. I remain.......

Neither will I.  It's just too dangerous to consider.

Fred





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hard sole mocc's
Date: 15 Feb 1999 21:45:39 -0600

Washtahay-
At 06:35 PM 2/15/99 -0800, Yellow Mocs wrote:
>what materiel was most favored in the construction of hard sole mocc's? i
>have several books but none seem to give a specific kind of materiel to
>use. also what is parfleche?
    Well, parfleche is rawhide.  For moc soles, buff rawhide works best.
Works great on the plains, most of the time.  If it rains, they get slick.
So do all other mocs, so I can't see any difference.
    I usually make regular plains-style one piece or two-piece mocs, then sew
soles of buff rawhide on the outside.  Its a pain to make, but I don't
worry about cactus.  Such mocs were used by various tribes in the early 1800s.
    I'd recommend against the use of oil-tanned leather for soles-they are
slick ALL the time, and they don't last as long as some other leathers,
such as oak tan.  YMMV, of course.
LongWalker c. du B.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hard sole mocc's
Date: 16 Feb 1999 02:30:31 EST

In a message dated 99-02-15 21:39:10 EST, you write:

<<  also what is parfleche? >>

Parfleche = rawhide.  Aslo sometimes refered to as "parchment" (Lewis & Clark
journals).  As previously stated, containers made of rawhide were also called
parfleche.

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: MtMan-List: Austin & Halleck
Date: 16 Feb 1999 06:52:10 -0700 (MST)



Does anyone know about a company called  Austin & Halleck in the Rifle Business?
B

--
"The Price Of Freedom
     Is Not Free"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: MtMan-List: Muzzle Blast January 1998
Date: 16 Feb 1999 06:55:45 -0700 (MST)



Anyone who has a copy of this Issue and would be will to part with it for a few
day, or copy something out of it for me please contact me off list.

Thanks,

B

--
"The Price Of Freedom
     Is Not Free"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mill, Kirk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: SALT PETER
Date: 16 Feb 1999 09:02:55 -0500


>  Subject:    MtMan-List: SALT PETER
>
> Ok boys and girls.  How do you make salt peter ? A buddy of mine who
> aspires to make his own black powder, wants to make it all from scratch.
> He
> may be a half bubble off plumb, but it is a good question.  Does anybody
> have any idea how to make the stuff ?
> Pendleton
    [Mill, Kirk]  One of the Foxfire books has fairly detailed
instructions on making salt petre. It looks pretty time consuming and of
course the consensus of the list is homemade BP is a recipe for disaster. If
your buddy is so intent on making powder from scratch, where does intend to
find the sulphur? Does he have a volcano in his back yard?
    Kirk Mill




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: MtMan-List: Powder Horn Care & Cracking Prevention
Date: 16 Feb 1999 07:04:38 -0700 (MST)



I recently read a discussion of how to repair a crack in a Powder Horn.  I do no
t know how the horn got it 's crack or if the crack could have been prevented.  B
ut when the horn was attached to it original owner it was alive, and being consta
ntly supplied with Blood, etc.  Than it was transformed into a Powder Horn, many
of which are real works of art, cost hundred of dollars.  Is there something that
 you can treat the outside surface of Powder Horns with that will keep them shinn
y looking, and prevent this boney material from drying out and cracking.

Any secret you posses would be appreciated,

B

--
"The Price Of Freedom
     Is Not Free"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Responses to my (Henry's)post
Date: 16 Feb 1999 08:17:16 -0600


Yes, we all know that, TV notwithstanding.  Good historians do not use
fictionalized TV and cinematic drama as a basis for scholarly conclusions.
If we did, we would not know that there were also very many trappers and
traders African descent, like myself (I'm also 1/16 Cherokee on my father's
side)

HBC


>    Many Indians trapped also. Not just the whites. The whites may have
>exploited that, but the facts are they trapped, and hunted for furs also. I
>have spent a lot of time researching the history of native Americans
>(particularly plains). They were just as profit minded as the rest. I
>beleive that Indians (as well as the trappers) used more of the animals
>they killed and waisted less out of necessity for life. I think a lot of
>this misconseption is T.V. related. I hope I don't offend anyone with this
>note but research this and you will come to the same conclusion.
>
>"Dull Hawk"
>

****************************************
Henry B. Crawford    Box 43191
Curator of History    Museum of Texas Tech University
[e-mail]    Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
806/742-2442     FAX [phone]
              Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because It's There  ******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Men on History Channel
Date: 16 Feb 1999 08:22:35 -0600


>Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 23:16:26 -0500
>From: greg n bosen <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Men on History Channel
>
>do you happen to know the time the the showing???
>
>greg b

I'm sure it would be prime time, and repeated later in the evening.  I'll
call Brian and ask.

HBC

****************************************
Henry B. Crawford    Box 43191
Curator of History    Museum of Texas Tech University
[e-mail]    Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
806/742-2442     FAX [phone]
              Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because It's There  ******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mill, Kirk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Muzzle Blast January 1998
Date: 16 Feb 1999 09:43:59 -0500



> Anyone who has a copy of this Issue and would be will to part with it for
> a few
> day, or copy something out of it for me please contact me off list.
>
> Thanks,
>
> B
    [Mill, Kirk]  Got the copy right here. Where do you want me to send
it?
    Kirk Mill




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Don Neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: SALT PETER
Date: 16 Feb 1999 13:40:35 -0600

You can buy sulpher at a drug store. I have made my own for a school
project. It doesnot work very well. Black powder today is mix in a
solution. This allows everything to mix together better. It is also
against the law. A.T.F. has very tight rules.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Barrel Liner?
Date: 16 Feb 1999 17:17:40 -0800

Probably a dumb question, but since reproduction barrels use modern
metallurgy, and since BP residue is so corrosive, hasn't anyone
considered using a barrel liner of some non-corroding alloy? Certainly
it would add to the price (difficult to machine) and to the weight
(maybe 1 lb) but the advantage may make it worthwhile.  There are high
strength alloys which are also highly corrosion resistant (and also
rather expensive) that could insure a lifetime barrel with greatly
reduced maintenance requirements.  I'm going to duck now and enjoy the
barrage from a safe vantage point.

Tom.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Liner?
Date: 16 Feb 1999 17:13:04 EST

Tom,

Probably the first salvo you are going to get will be over the authenticity
issue.
Sure there are modern ways to improve on almost every aspect of our clothing
and equipment, but that's not the point. If we did we'd all look like Cabela's
supplied duck hunters.

happy trails

Todd Glover



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Liner?
Date: 16 Feb 1999 17:26:42 EST

In a message dated 99-02-16 17:07:01 EST, you write:

> Probably a dumb question

There are no dumb questions; only dumb people who ask them.

>  since reproduction barrels use modern
>  metallurgy, and since BP residue is so corrosive, hasn't anyone
>  considered using a barrel liner of some non-corroding alloy?

Barrel liners are available.  They cost more than a new barrel, plus the added
cost of having them installed.  What's the point?  Unless trying to salvage an
old unreplaceable original, they serve no useful purpose.

>  There are high
>  strength alloys which are also highly corrosion resistant (and also
>  rather expensive) that could insure a lifetime barrel with greatly
>  reduced maintenance requirements.

Lifetime barrels are, and always have been, available.  They are on the guns
of people who practice routine maintenance.  Contrary to your statement about
BP being so corrosive, it is only so in the guns of those who practice greatly
reduced maintenance.  For a discussion of those people, kindly refer to part 2
of statement 1 in reply to your first question.

>  I'm going to duck now and enjoy the barrage from a safe vantage point.

Thank you for the invitation for a little target practice.

OldFox



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "stitchinscot" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Responses to my (Henry's)post
Date: 16 Feb 1999 18:03:25 -0600

Could you document the trappers and traders of African decent for me please.
It would be interesting to know.  Thank you in advance:  Long John
-----Original Message-----


>
>Yes, we all know that, TV notwithstanding.  Good historians do not use
>fictionalized TV and cinematic drama as a basis for scholarly conclusions.
>If we did, we would not know that there were also very many trappers and
>traders African descent, like myself (I'm also 1/16 Cherokee on my father's
>side)
>
>HBC
>
>
>>    Many Indians trapped also. Not just the whites. The whites may have
>>exploited that, but the facts are they trapped, and hunted for furs also.
I
>>have spent a lot of time researching the history of native Americans
>>(particularly plains). They were just as profit minded as the rest. I
>>beleive that Indians (as well as the trappers) used more of the animals
>>they killed and waisted less out of necessity for life. I think a lot of
>>this misconseption is T.V. related. I hope I don't offend anyone with this
>>note but research this and you will come to the same conclusion.
>>
>>"Dull Hawk"
>>
>
>****************************************
>Henry B. Crawford Box 43191
>Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University
>[e-mail] Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>806/742-2442 FAX [phone]
>              Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
>******  Living History . . . Because It's There  ******
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "stitchinscot" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder Horn Care & Cracking Prevention
Date: 16 Feb 1999 18:09:09 -0600

Bruce:  Repairing a horn (other than the rawhide leather wraps that I've
seen on some originals) is out of my league but if you want to protect and
polish up a horn, then just good old handrubbed bees wax is the ticket.  I
have heard of some old timers using wet black powder on the outside (rubbed
in) to repell bugs, but that sounds a little strange to me nor have I tried
it.   Y. obnt S    Long John
-----Original Message-----


>
>
>I recently read a discussion of how to repair a crack in a Powder Horn.  I
do no
>t know how the horn got it 's crack or if the crack could have been
prevented.  B
>ut when the horn was attached to it original owner it was alive, and being
consta
>ntly supplied with Blood, etc.  Than it was transformed into a Powder Horn,
many
>of which are real works of art, cost hundred of dollars.  Is there
something that
> you can treat the outside surface of Powder Horns with that will keep them
shinn
>y looking, and prevent this boney material from drying out and cracking.
>
>Any secret you posses would be appreciated,
>
>B
>
>--
>"The Price Of Freedom
>     Is Not Free"
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: terry l landis <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: soppin Landis?
Date: 16 Feb 1999 16:14:33 -0800

well there wernt no soppin goin on but there were a frightful few moments
of hopin and pullin and tugin after 2 hrs in the car and several Pepsi's.

YMHS, Terry L Landis

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: SALT PETER
Date: 15 Feb 1999 18:38:19 -0600

Larry,
    Foxfire 5 has a section on the leaching of saltpeter from bat guano.
It is fairly indepth as it includes photographs of all devices used for
leaching.
ISBN 0-385-14308-7 pg. 253
   Bill Vannoy

larry pendleton wrote:

> Ok boys and girls.  How do you make salt peter ? A buddy of mine who
> aspires to make his own black powder, wants to make it all from scratch. He
> may be a half bubble off plumb, but it is a good question.  Does anybody
> have any idea how to make the stuff ?
> Pendleton






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: SALT PETER
Date: 15 Feb 1999 18:38:19 -0600

Larry,
    Foxfire 5 has a section on the leaching of saltpeter from bat guano.
It is fairly indepth as it includes photographs of all devices used for
leaching.
ISBN 0-385-14308-7 pg. 253
   Bill Vannoy

larry pendleton wrote:

> Ok boys and girls.  How do you make salt peter ? A buddy of mine who
> aspires to make his own black powder, wants to make it all from scratch. He
> may be a half bubble off plumb, but it is a good question.  Does anybody
> have any idea how to make the stuff ?
> Pendleton






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Liner?
Date: 16 Feb 1999 19:53:43 -0800

Fair question.   I am highly supportive of authenticity wherever it makes sense
(usually always).   I suspect that the barrel of whatever you are shooting was not
manufactured using the materials or techniques that would have been common
practice in 1800, primarily for reasons of safety.  In fact, I suspect that
extremely few shooters even know the alloy of their barrels.   I do not pretend to
be metallurgically knowledgeable but I expect that using a more corrosion
resistant alloy would not degrade our authenticity one bit. The only problem I
forsee, would be the inability to brown a barrel, if that was the desired finish,
if the whole barrel was corrosion resistant alloy and not just lined - thus, the
liner concept.   I knew this could be controversial, thanks for only using a small
charge!

Tom

[e-mail] wrote:

> Tom,
>
> Probably the first salvo you are going to get will be over the authenticity
> issue.
> Sure there are modern ways to improve on almost every aspect of our clothing
> and equipment, but that's not the point. If we did we'd all look like Cabela's
> supplied duck hunters.
>
> happy trails
>
> Todd Glover




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: soppin Landis?
Date: 16 Feb 1999 16:46:15 -0800



terry l landis wrote:

> well there wernt no soppin goin on but there were a frightful few moments
> of hopin and pullin and tugin after 2 hrs in the car and several Pepsi's.
>
> YMHS, Terry L Landis

Terry,

Well that helps a little but what are we talking here? What sounds more
appropriate, "Groaper Landis" or "Short stroke Landis"? What I always found
frustrating was Winter time when it was real cold and a guy's dressed warm.
He finds he has 3 inches of cloths on and only 2 inches of reach! Perhaps
this is a design flaw in the drop fronts? <G> Perhaps we should dub you
"Handful"? <G> or "Dances with...."? <G> I remain.......

YMOS
CApt. Lahti'

>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: OIL CLOTH
Date: 16 Feb 1999 18:55:21 -0600

The discussion about making oil cloth went on for a while here sometime
ago.  What is the difference between using the pigment and linseed oil
method versus just using plain oil-based paint?  It is my understanding
that it was common for barn-red paint to be used for such things.  Does the
linseed and pigment produce a better more pliable tarp?  I have used just
straight linseed oil to waterproof a tarp and it worked great.  The only
down side was the added weight.
Pendleton



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Liner?
Date: 16 Feb 1999 20:24:14 -0800

Well OldFox,  I certainly invited the lead but I hadn't expected quite such
velocity.  I'm bleeding but have not fallen. I'm only here to learn and won't hold
as much information if full of holes.  I did not intend to imply that alloy
substitution would constitute an excuse for poor maintenance.  I guess a possible
(but admittedly poor) analogy would be multiple carburetors versus fuel injection.
Both will do the job, both will fail if not properly cared for, one requires high
maintenance, and the other requires less.  My admitted lack of experience is
obvious, but I can envision circumstance where the best of care may not be
immediately possible and an alternate alloy, visually undistinguishable, might
offer some slight advantage.  Let me ask how you would prepare for/deal with, this
hypothetical situation:  drop gun in water from canoe (yes, I know it should be
tethered), lengthy delay in retrieval.   I concur that the cost of lining a barrel
could be prohibitively expensive rendering this whole dialogue moot.  Any barrel
machinists out there care to speculate on cost?

Holding hat on a stick - waiting nervously for next salvo

Tom

[e-mail] wrote:

> In a message dated 99-02-16 17:07:01 EST, you write:
>
> > Probably a dumb question
>
> There are no dumb questions; only dumb people who ask them.
>
> >  since reproduction barrels use modern
> >  metallurgy, and since BP residue is so corrosive, hasn't anyone
> >  considered using a barrel liner of some non-corroding alloy?
>
> Barrel liners are available.  They cost more than a new barrel, plus the added
> cost of having them installed.  What's the point?  Unless trying to salvage an
> old unreplaceable original, they serve no useful purpose.
>
> >  There are high
> >  strength alloys which are also highly corrosion resistant (and also
> >  rather expensive) that could insure a lifetime barrel with greatly
> >  reduced maintenance requirements.
>
> Lifetime barrels are, and always have been, available.  They are on the guns
> of people who practice routine maintenance.  Contrary to your statement about
> BP being so corrosive, it is only so in the guns of those who practice greatly
> reduced maintenance.  For a discussion of those people, kindly refer to part 2
> of statement 1 in reply to your first question.
>
> >  I'm going to duck now and enjoy the barrage from a safe vantage point.
>
> Thank you for the invitation for a little target practice.
>
> OldFox




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bob Spencer)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Liner?
Date: 16 Feb 1999 21:02:06 -0400

>Probably a dumb question, but since reproduction barrels use modern
>metallurgy, and since BP residue is so corrosive, hasn't anyone
>considered using a barrel liner of some non-corroding alloy?

It would probably be a good solution, Tom, but in my experience, it's a
solution to a problem which doesn't exist. I've never found corrosion to be
a problem in my guns. Yes, they are all made of different  modern alloys,
I'm sure, but none of them seems very susceptible to this corrosion problem
I hear so much about.

I have guns which have been shot a moderate amount for more than 30 years,
and the bores still look the same to me now as when I started. I am a
hunter, and I drag my guns through some pretty messy situations, so they
aren't pampered guns. I've used a variety of cleaning methods over that
time period, many different lubes, and they all seem to prevent the problem
completely if I do my part, which I always do. The only constant in my long
experience has been that I use only real black powder, have never fired a
single load of a BP substitute.

I wouldn't pay an extra nickle for a special corrosion resistant alloy or a
barrel liner, because I see absolutely no need for either.

Bob

Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
non illegitimi carborundum est





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Graniteware
Date: 16 Feb 1999 20:25:00 -0600

I have a custom made tinned copper pot shaped exactly as you describe.  =
I holds within an ounce or two of one gallon and is a good item for all =
the uses you mention.  I had a craftsman make it based on one being held =
by a man in AJ Miller's "Trappers at Breakfast"....at least that is what =
my memory tells me is the name of the work.  My old, much used and =
abused coffee pot stays home now.
Don't ask for the craftsman's name because the pot was such a pain in =
the arse to make that he said that mine would be unique as far as he was =
concerned,  because he wasn't making another one.    Find me at the =
national rdv in July and have a look.
Lanney Ratcliff

-----Original Message-----


>Dear Joe,
>    I doubt that any trapper or Fur Brigade brought a coffee POT along =
with 'em.
>I'm referring to a flared bottomed, pitcher-shaped boiler with a lid, =
handle and
>bail.  Like the kind cowboys use in all those movies. It was just too =
specific an
>item to pack along.  Coffee and tea kettles shaped like that did exist =
but stayed
>in the settlements indoors.  A coffee kettle(a tea kettle boils water, =
a tea pot
>brews tea in water)in the mountains would have been a straight-sided =
can-shape
>with a bail.  It could be used for coffee, tea, water, stew, or soup.  =
There are
>nice sketches of them by Miller in his works: "Indians Encamped on the =
Eau Sucre
>River" and "Our Camp".  If you buy one by catalog from Jarnigin, it's =
called an
>"1820 Period Coffee Pot" and is copied from a dig from a 6th US =
Infantry camp
>dated 1820.  Made of  heavy tin.  Works good for coffee and whatever.
>
>Larry "Shoots-the-Prairie" Huber
>
>[e-mail] wrote:
>
>> Since they didn't have enamel ware and coffee and tea were drank.  =
What did
>> they use for coffee pots?  I have seen copper tea pots, but what =
about coffee
>> pots?
>>
>>                                                 TrapRJoe
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: SALT PETER
Date: 16 Feb 1999 20:28:10 -0600

Larry (chair burner to some....ask him about it) lives very near Sulphur =
Springs, Texas where sulphur is mined.  I assume that his friend lives =
in the same area. Shouldn't be a problem for anyone in the area.
Lanney
-----Original Message-----


>
>>  Subject: MtMan-List: SALT PETER
>>=20
>> Ok boys and girls.  How do you make salt peter ? A buddy of mine who
>> aspires to make his own black powder, wants to make it all from =
scratch.
>> He
>> may be a half bubble off plumb, but it is a good question.  Does =
anybody
>> have any idea how to make the stuff ?
>> Pendleton
> [Mill, Kirk]  One of the Foxfire books has fairly detailed
>instructions on making salt petre. It looks pretty time consuming and =
of
>course the consensus of the list is homemade BP is a recipe for =
disaster. If
>your buddy is so intent on making powder from scratch, where does =
intend to
>find the sulphur? Does he have a volcano in his back yard?
> Kirk Mill
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo extinction
Date: 16 Feb 1999 18:25:27 -0800

On The Decline of buffalo, You don't have to shoot em all you just have to
affect calf mortality and the reproductive rate.  Large Herbivores are generally
slow to bring calves to breeding age.  If  you affect the reproductive rate a
population will go into decline, and become worse each year if you add habitat
loss, Disruption of migration routes and any natural causes such as bad weather
will put the population into a tailspin.  If you will recall, bison used to live
east of the mississippi, and they were hunted and farmed out in short order.
Your most onry' and disobdient hivernant
Sega





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #240
Date: 16 Feb 1999 20:35:16 -0600



>
>
>
>
>
> > I expect that using a more corrosion
> >resistant alloy would not degrade our authenticity one bit. The only problem I
> >forsee, would be the inability to brown a barrel, if that was the desired finish,
> >if the whole barrel was corrosion resistant alloy and not just lined - thus, the
> >liner concept.   I knew this could be controversial, thanks for only using a small
> >charge!

The problem with so called corrosion resistant steels for ML gun barrels is that
while surface rust won't form on them, no steel will resist the corrosive effects of
BP for long. Even the best SS steel will readily pit if left in contact with BP
residue.

If I remember correctly, Ruger's early SS percussion revolver pitted so badly that
Ruger had to change the alloy of the SS  to one that will better resist the corrosive
effects of BP.

J.D.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: RANDAL J BUBLITZ <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Responses to my (Henry's)post
Date: 16 Feb 1999 18:35:52 -0800

John,             James P. Beckworth, Edward Rose, Moses Harris had
decended from African bloodlines.  Check them out.  I recall reading of
others, but don't recollect names right now.  Hope all is well with you
on the prarie.  Hardtack



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: SALT PETER
Date: 16 Feb 1999 20:55:05 -0600

Larry
FYI, our brother Bill A. from Flower Mound knows of a cave near Mason =
with large deposits of bat guano....in case your non plumb friend needs =
some.  However, he would have to risk jail to trespass on a bat preserve =
to get it.
Lanney
-----Original Message-----


>Ok boys and girls.  How do you make salt peter ? A buddy of mine who
>aspires to make his own black powder, wants to make it all from =
scratch. He
>may be a half bubble off plumb, but it is a good question.  Does =
anybody
>have any idea how to make the stuff ?
>Pendleton
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Graniteware
Date: 16 Feb 1999 21:50:10 -0500

Lanney,
 You are GOOD at one of a kind items from craftsmen, you are lucky there
isn't a warning flyer out about you.. If you weren't so damned cuddly, there
would be a bounty on your ass...
Love,
D

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


I have a custom made tinned copper pot shaped exactly as you describe.  I
holds within an ounce or two of one gallon and is a good item for all the
uses you mention.  I had a craftsman make it based on one being held by a
man in AJ Miller's "Trappers at Breakfast"....at least that is what my
memory tells me is the name of the work.  My old, much used and abused
coffee pot stays home now.
Don't ask for the craftsman's name because the pot was such a pain in the
arse to make that he said that mine would be unique as far as he was
concerned,  because he wasn't making another one.    Find me at the national
rdv in July and have a look.
Lanney Ratcliff

----




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Liner?
Date: 16 Feb 1999 22:09:58 -0800

Thanks for the gentle reply.  I'm interested in learning what
cleaning/preservation method you have evolved to for multi-day field
maintenance. Do you grease the barrel at the end of each day and then solvent
wipe prior to first load next day?   I'm also thinking that perhaps current
barrel alloys may already offer substantial corrosion resistance, i.e.,
chromium content.

Tom

Bob Spencer wrote:

> >Probably a dumb question, but since reproduction barrels use modern
> >metallurgy, and since BP residue is so corrosive, hasn't anyone
> >considered using a barrel liner of some non-corroding alloy?
>
> It would probably be a good solution, Tom, but in my experience, it's a
> solution to a problem which doesn't exist. I've never found corrosion to be
> a problem in my guns. Yes, they are all made of different  modern alloys,
> I'm sure, but none of them seems very susceptible to this corrosion problem
> I hear so much about.
>
> I have guns which have been shot a moderate amount for more than 30 years,
> and the bores still look the same to me now as when I started. I am a
> hunter, and I drag my guns through some pretty messy situations, so they
> aren't pampered guns. I've used a variety of cleaning methods over that
> time period, many different lubes, and they all seem to prevent the problem
> completely if I do my part, which I always do. The only constant in my long
> experience has been that I use only real black powder, have never fired a
> single load of a BP substitute.
>
> I wouldn't pay an extra nickle for a special corrosion resistant alloy or a
> barrel liner, because I see absolutely no need for either.
>
> Bob
>
> Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
> non illegitimi carborundum est




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Graniteware
Date: 16 Feb 1999 20:07:55 -0700

Need one, so what would be the address, phone # or e-mail for Jarnigin?

DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants

Laurel huber wrote:
>Dear Joe,
>    I doubt that any trapper or Fur Brigade brought a coffee POT along
with 'em.
>I'm referring to a flared bottomed, pitcher-shaped boiler with a lid,
handle and
>bail.  Like the kind cowboys use in all those movies. It was just too
>specific an
>item to pack along.  Coffee and tea kettles shaped like that did exist
but
>stayed
>in the settlements indoors.  A coffee kettle(a tea kettle boils water, a
tea pot
>brews tea in water)in the mountains would have been a straight-sided
can-shape
>with a bail.  It could be used for coffee, tea, water, stew, or soup.
There are
>nice sketches of them by Miller in his works: "Indians Encamped on the
Eau Sucre
>River" and "Our Camp".  If you buy one by catalog from Jarnigin, it's
called an
>"1820 Period Coffee Pot" and is copied from a dig from a 6th US Infantry
camp
>dated 1820.  Made of  heavy tin.  Works good for coffee and whatever.
>
>Larry "Shoots-the-Prairie" Huber
>
>[e-mail] wrote:
>
>> Since they didn't have enamel ware and coffee and tea were drank.
What did
>> they use for coffee pots?  I have seen copper tea pots, but what about
coffee
>> pots?
>>
>>                                                 TrapRJoe
>
>
>
>
>
>
>RFC822 header
>-----------------------------------
>
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Graniteware
Date: 16 Feb 1999 21:16:44 -0600

...and a large bounty it would be, don't you know?!
L
-----Original Message-----


>Lanney,
> You are GOOD at one of a kind items from craftsmen, you are lucky =
there
>isn't a warning flyer out about you.. If you weren't so damned cuddly, =
there
>would be a bounty on your ass...
>Love,
>D
>
>   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 9:43 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Graniteware
>
>
>I have a custom made tinned copper pot shaped exactly as you describe.  =
I
>holds within an ounce or two of one gallon and is a good item for all =
the
>uses you mention.  I had a craftsman make it based on one being held by =
a
>man in AJ Miller's "Trappers at Breakfast"....at least that is what my
>memory tells me is the name of the work.  My old, much used and abused
>coffee pot stays home now.
>Don't ask for the craftsman's name because the pot was such a pain in =
the
>arse to make that he said that mine would be unique as far as he was
>concerned,  because he wasn't making another one.    Find me at the =
national
>rdv in July and have a look.
>Lanney Ratcliff
>
>----
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: RANDAL J BUBLITZ <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Liner?
Date: 16 Feb 1999 19:14:06 -0800

Tom, I believe in the natural way to clean/ maintain my BP guns.  I read
a long time ago, and believe, that natural oils are best for these
firearms.  I use vegetable, or animal, oils for preserving my guns.  The
idea is likened to curing a cast iron skillet.  I use water to clean my
gun, and animal/vegetable grease to grease it.  It works for me.
Hardtack



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Graniteware
Date: 16 Feb 1999 22:13:56 -0500

Aye Lad, $5. American,    at least...
D

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


...and a large bounty it would be, don't you know?!
L
-----Original Message-----


>Lanney,
> You are GOOD at one of a kind items from craftsmen, you are lucky there
>isn't a warning flyer out about you.. If you weren't so damned cuddly,
there
>would be a bounty on your ass...
>Love,
>D
>
>   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 9:43 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Graniteware
>
>
>I have a custom made tinned copper pot shaped exactly as you describe.  I
>holds within an ounce or two of one gallon and is a good item for all the
>uses you mention.  I had a craftsman make it based on one being held by a
>man in AJ Miller's "Trappers at Breakfast"....at least that is what my
>memory tells me is the name of the work.  My old, much used and abused
>coffee pot stays home now.
>Don't ask for the craftsman's name because the pot was such a pain in the
>arse to make that he said that mine would be unique as far as he was
>concerned,  because he wasn't making another one.    Find me at the
national
>rdv in July and have a look.
>Lanney Ratcliff
>
>----
>
>
>







-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Graniteware
Date: 16 Feb 1999 22:15:24 -0500



Aye Lad, $5. American,    at least...
D

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 10:34 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Graniteware
>
>
>...and a large bounty it would be, don't you know?!
>L
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dennis Miles <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 8:49 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Graniteware
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: greg n bosen <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Mikwa Trading Post??????????
Date: 16 Feb 1999 22:30:34 -0500

Does anyone have the current phone and address for Mikwa Trading Post?
2402 92nd Lubbock, TX 79423 is wrong, they moved and i lost their new
number and address!!!

Thanks greg

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Liner?
Date: 16 Feb 1999 21:29:51 -0600

Washtahay-
At 10:09 PM 2/16/99 -0800, you wrote:
>I'm interested in learning what
>cleaning/preservation method you have evolved to for multi-day field
>maintenance. Do you grease the barrel at the end of each day and then solvent
>wipe prior to first load next day?   I'm also thinking that perhaps current
>barrel alloys may already offer substantial corrosion resistance, i.e.,
>chromium content.
    One of the guns I use on a fairly regular basis has a wrought-iron barrel
(it used to be a wagon tire).  As best I can tell, it has no more corrosion
resistence than any other wrought iron, as was used back then.  Clean with
wet tow, dry with a couple more wads of tow.  Wipe the metal with an oiled
patch (usually neatsfoot oil or deer tallow).  No rust problems in the 10
or so years I've been using it.
    If you want a "stainless" barrel liner, cost breakdown is something like
this:  stainless barrel blank ca. $150, turning it down to a liner ca $100,
boring out and lining barrel ca. $175 (I called a gunsmith).  Looks to me
like it would be easier to just take care of the barrel you have.
LongWalker c. du B.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bob Spencer)
Subject: MtMan-List: cleaning, was Barrel Liner?
Date: 16 Feb 1999 22:32:19 -0400

>Thanks for the gentle reply.  I'm interested in learning what
>cleaning/preservation method you have evolved to for multi-day field
>maintenance. Do you grease the barrel at the end of each day and then solvent
>wipe prior to first load next day?   I'm also thinking that perhaps current
>barrel alloys may already offer substantial corrosion resistance, i.e.,
>chromium content.

Well, my way of doing it is very simple, but I use a couple of different
methods, depending upon whether I'm cleaning a rifle or a smoothbore. I've
become a flintlock smoothbore addict, and that's all I shoot, these days,
so I'll start with that. Remember, I'm describing my way of cleaning in
hunting camp, when little actual shooting is done, or on a trek, when 30
shots in a day is a lot.

I use a homebrew lube of 25% beeswax and 75% hog lard, and that's my patch
lube as well as lube for my bore and the outside of my gun, wood and all.
To clean, I just plug up the touch-hole, pour a half-cup of cold water down
the bore, put my thumb over the muzzle and tilt the gun back and forth 3-4
times while rotating it, to make certain all parts of the bore are being
washed. After doing this 3-4 times, the water comes out clear. I then swab
the bore 3-4-5 times,, using just a snug, soft wet patch on a gun worm,
making sure I rotate the patch all the time while running it up and down
the bore, and especially down in the breech. Then 2-3 dry patches done the
same. Then 1-2 lubricated patches, again paying particular attention to the
breech. Rub down the outside and I'm finished, takes about 10-15 minutes,
tops. Before loading the next morning, I just run a dry patch to remove any
excess lube and load as usual.

If in hunting camp, I don't hesitate to leave the gun loaded for 3-4-5
days, regardless of the weather. I have shot, reloaded and left the dirty
gun loaded overnight, many times, without any problem.

For a rifle, the method is the same with a couple of minor changes. I use a
tight patch on a jag, not a gun worm for the cleaning. I use Wonderlube or
Natural Lube 1000 (same stuff) for lubricating the cleaned bore and for
patch lube. Again, I don't hesitate to leave the gun loaded overnight if it
was loaded on a clean bore, and even for one night if it has been fired and
reloaded.

In the past, I have used hot soapy water, WD-40 and gun oil for a lot of
years. I've also used Number 13 and Number 13 Plus as the solvent, either
after the water cleaning or as the only liquid. Never had any problem with
any of these methods, so long as I was concientious in my cleaning.

Sorry to be so long winded. Takes longer to tell it than to do it.

Bob

Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
non illegitimi carborundum est





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Laurel huber <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Liner?
Date: 16 Feb 1999 22:02:08 -0800

I agree with Randy on this.  Bear grease or whale oil are probably the
best...and a little bit goes a long ways.  Whale oil is damn near impossible
to get but bear grease can be used in states that allow bear to be taken
legally.  Petroleum based oils and Black Powder do not seem to do well
together.

Larry "Shoot-the-Prairie" Huber

RANDAL J BUBLITZ wrote:

> Tom, I believe in the natural way to clean/ maintain my BP guns.  I read
> a long time ago, and believe, that natural oils are best for these
> firearms.  I use vegetable, or animal, oils for preserving my guns.  The
> idea is likened to curing a cast iron skillet.  I use water to clean my
> gun, and animal/vegetable grease to grease it.  It works for me.
> Hardtack






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OIL CLOTH
Date: 16 Feb 1999 23:51:13 -0600

I've been off list for a while with computer problems.

Oil paint today (except sign painters paint) isn't remotely similar to the
barn
paint you speak of.  Sign paint nearly takes an act of congress to acquire=
 and
though artist oil paint would work the drying time could be easier measured=
 in
months.  The pigment would be more helpful on cheap open weave (single fill)
canvas.  Pigment is nothing but specific high grade dirt, sift the stuff in
your yard through a fine (geologists) screen and it will work dandy.

Modern boiled linseed also isn't similar to the traditional product.  See my
postings back in late December '97 for detailed information on working with
linseed and making stock finish.  The archives also contain extensive
discussions of waterproofing cloth.  I posted one taken from Rob Allen's=
 1804
sometime last year.

Personally I prefer a top quality double fill fine woven canvas with no
waterproofing added.  If you waterproof too much the condensation trapped
within negates any benefit of waterproofing, it is best used to protect=
 goods
not people.

John...



At 06:55 PM 2/16/99 -0600, you wrote:
>The discussion about making oil cloth went on for a while here sometime
>ago.=A0 What is the difference between using the pigment and linseed oil
>method versus just using plain oil-based paint?=A0 It is my understanding
>that it was common for barn-red paint to be used for such things.=A0 Does=
 the
>linseed and pigment produce a better more pliable tarp?=A0 I have used just
>straight linseed oil to waterproof a tarp and it worked great.=A0 The only
>down side was the added weight.=A0=20
>Pendleton
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Laurel huber <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Graniteware
Date: 16 Feb 1999 22:11:08 -0800

Okay, Keas Duo, here you go:
    C & D Jarnagin Company
    PO Box 1860
    Corinth, MS 38835-1860
Phone: [phone] or...www.avsia.com/jarnagin/jarnagin.html
You want their 18th Century catalog(they do much Civil War stuff).  My issue is
from 1996 and cost $3.00.  Good luck.

Larry Huber
Shoots-the-Prairie

Phyllis and Don Keas wrote:

> Need one, so what would be the address, phone # or e-mail for Jarnigin?
>
> DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants
>
> Laurel huber wrote:
> >Dear Joe,
> >    I doubt that any trapper or Fur Brigade brought a coffee POT along
> with 'em.
> >I'm referring to a flared bottomed, pitcher-shaped boiler with a lid,
> handle and
> >bail.  Like the kind cowboys use in all those movies. It was just too
> >specific an
> >item to pack along.  Coffee and tea kettles shaped like that did exist
> but
> >stayed
> >in the settlements indoors.  A coffee kettle(a tea kettle boils water, a
> tea pot
> >brews tea in water)in the mountains would have been a straight-sided
> can-shape
> >with a bail.  It could be used for coffee, tea, water, stew, or soup.
> There are
> >nice sketches of them by Miller in his works: "Indians Encamped on the
> Eau Sucre
> >River" and "Our Camp".  If you buy one by catalog from Jarnigin, it's
> called an
> >"1820 Period Coffee Pot" and is copied from a dig from a 6th US Infantry
> camp
> >dated 1820.  Made of  heavy tin.  Works good for coffee and whatever.
> >
> >Larry "Shoots-the-Prairie" Huber
> >
> >[e-mail] wrote:
> >
> >> Since they didn't have enamel ware and coffee and tea were drank.
> What did
> >> they use for coffee pots?  I have seen copper tea pots, but what about
> coffee
> >> pots?
> >>
> >>                                                 TrapRJoe
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >RFC822 header
> >-----------------------------------
> >
> >Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with
> ESMTP
> >  (SMTPD32-4.03) id A811E040126; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 20:37:53 MDT
> >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1)
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> >       for [e-mail]; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 20:35:52 -0700
> >Received: from [207.217.120.123] (helo=swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net)
> >       by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1)
> >       id 10CbIb-0002Cl-00
> >       for [e-mail]; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 20:35:49 -0700
> >Received: from earthlink.net
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> >       by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA04867
> >       for <[e-mail]>; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:35:47 -0800
> (PST)
> >Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
> >Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:44:44 -0800
> >From: Laurel huber <[e-mail]>
> >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I)
> >MIME-Version: 1.0
> >To: [e-mail]
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Graniteware
> >References: <[e-mail]>
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> >Status: U
> >






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Liner?
Date: 17 Feb 1999 02:40:58 EST

In a message dated 99-02-16 22:38:38 EST, you write:

<< One of the guns I use on a fairly regular basis has a wrought-iron barrel

Wrought iron is somewhat corrosion resistant.  When it rusts, it seldom
develops the deep pits modern steels do, but it WILL rust.  Bill Large used
1010 (carbon & manganese) to make his barrels, & the most common steel used
now for barrels is L6 which only has .03% chromium & 1.4 - 2.6% nickle which
isn't enough to impart much corrosion resistance.  Occasionaly you'll see some
4140, (chrome-molly) but it'll rust too.


<     If you want a "stainless" barrel liner, cost breakdown is something like
 this:  stainless barrel blank ca. $150, turning it down to a liner ca $100,
 boring out and lining barrel ca. $175 (I called a gunsmith).  Looks to me
 like it would be easier to just take care of the barrel you have. >>

Amen!  Even if you don't, a replacement barrel is much cheaper than the liner
-- much less having it installed.  Think the 42" long swamped Coleran for my
new rifle was only $180 -- been a while since I priced it.  If money's tight &
you realy have to have a barrel cheap, you can usualy get an Orion for around
$100.  They shoot well, but I don't like the uncentered bore.  There are many
barrel manufactures out there that fall somewhere in between price wise that
make GOOD barrels & you won't have to find a gunsmith or machine shop that
specializes in fitting liners.  Thanks for the $$ figures Longwalker!

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: "Soppin' Landis"
Date: 17 Feb 1999 08:28:21 -0600

>> well there wernt no soppin goin on but there were a frightful few moments
>> of hopin and pullin and tugin after 2 hrs in the car and several Pepsi's.
>>
>> YMHS, Terry L Landis
>
>Terry,
>
>Well that helps a little but what are we talking here? What sounds more
>appropriate, "Groaper Landis" or "Short stroke Landis"? What I always found
>frustrating was Winter time when it was real cold and a guy's dressed warm.
>He finds he has 3 inches of cloths on and only 2 inches of reach! Perhaps
>this is a design flaw in the drop fronts? <G>

>YMOS
>CApt. Lahti'


I don't think the design flaw is with the pants but inside 'em!  :-)
(A little guy humor.  Pardon me, ladies)

Cheers,
HBC

****************************************
Henry B. Crawford    Box 43191
Curator of History    Museum of Texas Tech University
[e-mail]    Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
806/742-2442     FAX [phone]
              Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because It's There  ******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Afr-Am trappers
Date: 17 Feb 1999 08:28:51 -0600


>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:03:25 -0600
>From: "stitchinscot" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Responses to my (Henry's)post
>
>Could you document the trappers and traders of African decent for me please.
>It would be interesting to know.  Thank you in advance:  Long John

I can if I use my notes from Bill Gwaltney's (Rocky Mountain Nat'l  Park)
lecture on the subject at the Fur Trade Symposium in Pinedale back in Sept.
1997.  Bill is the expert.  I'll look over my notes.

Cheers,
HBC

****************************************
Henry B. Crawford    Box 43191
Curator of History    Museum of Texas Tech University
[e-mail]    Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
806/742-2442     FAX [phone]
              Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because It's There  ******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: SALT PETER
Date: 17 Feb 1999 10:31:39 EST

    Go to the library and get a series of books called "Foxfire." One of them
contains
detailed instructions on making saltpeter. Sorry I don't remember the number
of the book, but they are all worth reading.            Hunter



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #241
Date: 17 Feb 1999 09:38:33 -0600


>Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:30:34 -0500
>From: greg n bosen <[e-mail]>
>Subject: MtMan-List: Mikwa Trading Post??????????
>
>Does anyone have the current phone and address for Mikwa Trading Post?
>2402 92nd Lubbock, TX 79423 is wrong, they moved and i lost their new
>number and address!!!
>
>Thanks greg
>

Mikwa Trading Post??  Why have I never heard of them?  They must be pretty
low profile.  Are they fur trade era?  Geez, right in my own backyard
(literally, same zip code as my house).

HBC



****************************************
Henry B. Crawford    Box 43191
Curator of History    Museum of Texas Tech University
[e-mail]    Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
806/742-2442     FAX [phone]
              Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because It's There  ******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rick Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: SALT PETER
Date: 17 Feb 1999 08:53:30 +0000


------ =_NextPart_000_01BE5A52.FE54A1D0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

While I haven't done it, I understand that the small crystals that accumulate on old feces and outhouses can be gathered and used.

LOTS of luck
Rick


-----Original Message-----
Sent:    Tuesday, February 16, 1999 3:11 AM

Ok boys and girls.  How do you make salt peter ? A buddy of mine who
aspires to make his own black powder, wants to make it all from scratch. He
may be a half bubble off plumb, but it is a good question.  Does anybody
have any idea how to make the stuff ?
Pendleton



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CCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAARhQAAAAAAAAMAMoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABiFAAAA
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AAEAAAAAAAAAHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAAADAA00/TcAAI59

------ =_NextPart_000_01BE5A52.FE54A1D0--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OIL CLOTH
Date: 17 Feb 1999 09:37:41 -0800



larry pendleton wrote:

> The discussion about making oil cloth went on for a while here sometime
> ago.  ?  I have used just
> straight linseed oil to waterproof a tarp and it worked great.  The only
> down side was the added weight.
> Pendleton

Pendelton,

This is not so much an answer to your question as it is an opportunity to pass
on some information that I promised a few days back and just found. I think it
will be of interest considering your last comment about weight.

I direct your attention to the book "Nesmuk, Woodcraft and camping" by George
Washington Sears. Sears wrote for the original "Field and Stream" back before
the turn of the Century. He was described as a latter day "Daniel Boone" in
that he as much reinvented camping for pleasure. In working towards that goal,
Sears explored the Adirondacks in a cedar canoe that weighed something like 17
lbs. or less. He was a very small man in stature and was a great advocate for
going light. In the above book he describes his refined camping methods and
there is a lot that can be used to help the present day reenactor get into the
18th Century quicker if one is careful to consider when things were appropriate
as to time frame.

In this book Sears talks of shelters that he built and used and of different
ways to make them weather tight. Some ideas that he practiced are not
appropriate to what the buckskinner wants to do, like using nails and tacks to
build his shelter with poles and canvas. But Sears does mention oil cloth in
such a way that gives hints as to what it was. He also gives aa simple recipe
for treating canvas so it will shed water and remain light in weight.

In talking of shelters in Chapter III, Sears mentions using oil cloth for a few
seasons but gave it up because the "glazing began to crack and peel off in a
short time". He went on to say that it made a good shelter "but was a trifle
heavy to pack". Then he mentions making another shelter "soaked in lime-water
and alum". This proved to be much better with regards to  weight and able to
withstand a heavy rain for many hrs.

The recipe for the lime-water and alum is as follows. Using a strong cotton
cloth: to 10 quarts of water add 10 oz of lime, and 4 oz of alum; let it stand
until clear; fold the cloth snugly and put in another vessel, pour the solution
on it, let it soak for 12 hrs.; then rinse in luke-warm rain water, stretch and
dry in the sun, and the tarp is ready to use. You can use what ever cotton
cloth you wish but the major portion of the weight will be in the material. I
would recommend a tightly woven cotton cloth in the less than 6 oz weight. Make
up the shelter before you treat if any sewing needs done.

I recommend the books by Sears whole heartedly. They are informative and full
of ideas on how it was done before the advent of so much of our modern camping
gear. I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'







-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sickler, Louis L" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: RE: Afr-Amer trappers
Date: 17 Feb 1999 11:32:15 -0700

Long John, Henry & others,

Just yesterday I ran across this page:

http://www.coax.net/people/lwf/furtrade.htm

It is Bill Gwaltney's essay "Beyond the Pale   African Americans in the Fur
Trade West"

Excellent reading.

Is this the same info that you were looking up, Henry?

Red Coyote

> ----------
> From:     stitchinscot
> Reply To:     [e-mail]
> Sent:     Tuesday, February 16, 1999 17:03
> To:     [e-mail]
> Subject:     Re: MtMan-List: Responses to my (Henry's)post
>
> Could you document the trappers and traders of African decent for me
> please.
> It would be interesting to know.  Thank you in advance:  Long John
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henry B. Crawford <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 8:27 AM
> Subject: MtMan-List: Responses to my (Henry's)post
>
>
> >
> >Yes, we all know that, TV notwithstanding.  Good historians do not use
> >fictionalized TV and cinematic drama as a basis for scholarly
> conclusions.
> >If we did, we would not know that there were also very many trappers and
> >traders African descent, like myself (I'm also 1/16 Cherokee on my
> father's
> >side)
> >
> >HBC
> >
> >
> >>    Many Indians trapped also. Not just the whites. The whites may have
> >>exploited that, but the facts are they trapped, and hunted for furs
> also.
> I
> >>have spent a lot of time researching the history of native Americans
> >>(particularly plains). They were just as profit minded as the rest. I
> >>beleive that Indians (as well as the trappers) used more of the animals
> >>they killed and waisted less out of necessity for life. I think a lot of
> >>this misconseption is T.V. related. I hope I don't offend anyone with
> this
> >>note but research this and you will come to the same conclusion.
> >>
> >>"Dull Hawk"
> >>
> >
> >****************************************
> >Henry B. Crawford Box 43191
> >Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University
> >[e-mail] Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
> >806/742-2442 FAX [phone]
> >              Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
> >******  Living History . . . Because It's There  ******
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sickler, Louis L" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Nessmuk
Date: 17 Feb 1999 11:37:43 -0700

I have to agree with Roger on this one. I have loved and used this book for
over 25 years for info on how to camp without all the modern plastic sh*#.
This began way before I ever heard of trekking, etc. I've always loved to
camp this way.

If anyone out there hasn't read it, run to the library, you won't be
disappointed.

Red Coyote

> ----------
> From:     Roger Lahti
> Reply To:     [e-mail]
> Sent:     Wednesday, February 17, 1999 10:37
> To:     [e-mail]
> Subject:     Re: MtMan-List: OIL CLOTH
>
>
>
> larry pendleton wrote:
>
> > The discussion about making oil cloth went on for a while here sometime
> > ago.  ?  I have used just
> > straight linseed oil to waterproof a tarp and it worked great.  The only
> > down side was the added weight.
> > Pendleton
>
> Pendelton,
>
> This is not so much an answer to your question as it is an opportunity to
> pass
> on some information that I promised a few days back and just found. I
> think it
> will be of interest considering your last comment about weight.
>
> I direct your attention to the book "Nesmuk, Woodcraft and camping" by
> George
> Washington Sears. Sears wrote for the original "Field and Stream" back
> before
> the turn of the Century. He was described as a latter day "Daniel Boone"
> in
> that he as much reinvented camping for pleasure. In working towards that
> goal,
> Sears explored the Adirondacks in a cedar canoe that weighed something
> like 17
> lbs. or less. He was a very small man in stature and was a great advocate
> for
> going light. In the above book he describes his refined camping methods
> and
> there is a lot that can be used to help the present day reenactor get into
> the
> 18th Century quicker if one is careful to consider when things were
> appropriate
> as to time frame.
>
> In this book Sears talks of shelters that he built and used and of
> different
> ways to make them weather tight. Some ideas that he practiced are not
> appropriate to what the buckskinner wants to do, like using nails and
> tacks to
> build his shelter with poles and canvas. But Sears does mention oil cloth
> in
> such a way that gives hints as to what it was. He also gives aa simple
> recipe
> for treating canvas so it will shed water and remain light in weight.
>
> In talking of shelters in Chapter III, Sears mentions using oil cloth for
> a few
> seasons but gave it up because the "glazing began to crack and peel off in
> a
> short time". He went on to say that it made a good shelter "but was a
> trifle
> heavy to pack". Then he mentions making another shelter "soaked in
> lime-water
> and alum". This proved to be much better with regards to  weight and able
> to
> withstand a heavy rain for many hrs.
>
> The recipe for the lime-water and alum is as follows. Using a strong
> cotton
> cloth: to 10 quarts of water add 10 oz of lime, and 4 oz of alum; let it
> stand
> until clear; fold the cloth snugly and put in another vessel, pour the
> solution
> on it, let it soak for 12 hrs.; then rinse in luke-warm rain water,
> stretch and
> dry in the sun, and the tarp is ready to use. You can use what ever cotton
> cloth you wish but the major portion of the weight will be in the
> material. I
> would recommend a tightly woven cotton cloth in the less than 6 oz weight.
> Make
> up the shelter before you treat if any sewing needs done.
>
> I recommend the books by Sears whole heartedly. They are informative and
> full
> of ideas on how it was done before the advent of so much of our modern
> camping
> gear. I remain......
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: greg n bosen <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #241
Date: 17 Feb 1999 16:26:38 -0500

Mikwa Tading Post is a mt man / indian / highlander supplyer.  they moved
but i thought they are still in Lubbock.


Greg Bosen


On Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:38:33 -0600 "Henry B. Crawford"
<[e-mail]> writes:
>
>>Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:30:34 -0500
>>From: greg n bosen <[e-mail]>
>>Subject: MtMan-List: Mikwa Trading Post??????????
>>
>>Does anyone have the current phone and address for Mikwa Trading
>Post?
>>2402 92nd Lubbock, TX 79423 is wrong, they moved and i lost their new
>>number and address!!!
>>
>>Thanks greg
>>
>
>Mikwa Trading Post??  Why have I never heard of them?  They must be
>pretty
>low profile.  Are they fur trade era?  Geez, right in my own backyard
>(literally, same zip code as my house).
>
>HBC
>
>
>
>****************************************
>Henry B. Crawford    Box 43191
>Curator of History    Museum of Texas Tech University
>[e-mail]    Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>806/742-2442     FAX [phone]
>              Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
>******  Living History . . . Because It's There  ******
>
>
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Black fur traders (was: Responses to my (Henry's) post)
Date: 17 Feb 1999 14:42:33 -0700

"stitchinscot" <[e-mail]> wrote:
>Could you document the trappers and traders of African descent for me please.
>It would be interesting to know.  Thank you in advance:  Long John

Here are some Black voyageurs from the Canadian fur trade:

In 1800, "Pierre Bonza or Bonga, a negro" went to Red River with Alexander
Henry the Younger. By 1804, he was an interpreter for the North West
Company. His family had close Native ties. (Henry the Younger, Coues ed., 50)

In 1803, XY Company fur trader Michel Curot watches rival NWC wintering
partner John Sayer come & go. "About three o'clock Mr. Sayer arrived at the
fort in his canoe with only his Baggage, his wife, Two Children, a negro,
and another man." (Nov. 2, 1803) "At 10 o Clock this morning La Garde,
Girard, and the negro arrived at Mr. Sayer's fort." (1804) (Curot, 420, 439)

For the 1820-1821 season in the Athabasca, George Simpson (future head of
the HBC) had at least two people of African heritage working for him.
"Charlo the Guide and Grand Michel the Half Negro are to be my Bow and
Steersmen" in the spring of 1821. (Simpson, _Athabasca_, 188) Also, Crawford
Glasgow worked as a milieu (middle paddler) and cook in the Athabasca that
winter. He was clearly a valuable employee; Simpson wrote that he "speaks
English, French & Iroquois fluently". Although Simpson schemed to keep him
working for the HBC, Glasgow retired to Montreal in the spring of 1821.
(Simpson, _Athabasca_, 112, 290)

There was an incredible diversity in the backgrounds of the people involved
in the fur trade; I have founds records for the Canadian fur trade
(1774-1821) of lots of women (of both Native and European descent), as well
as Germans, Italians, Swiss, ex-soldiers, Norwegians, Hawaiians, Highland
Scots, Americans, Britons, even an East Indian. I haven't found any Chinese
or Japanese people yet, but I figure it's only a matter of spending enough
time on research.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mikwa
Date: 17 Feb 1999 17:35:50 EST

In a message dated 99-02-17 16:28:45 EST, you write:

> Mikwa Tading Post is a mt man / indian / highlander supplyer.  they moved
>  but i thought they are still in Lubbock.

I think his ad in Smoke and Fire News has his new address.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Liner?
Date: 17 Feb 1999 18:22:00 EST

please change my mail from woody4paw to [e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mike Rock" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #241
Date: 17 Feb 1999 18:24:15 -0600

'The Adventures of the Negro Cowboys', by Durham and Jones.  Bantam books,
$1.25
"is a true history patterned after our longer and more scholarly book called
The Negro Cowboys.  There fore if one wants to check the sources and
references for this work, he should turn to the longer book.  There he will
find twenty-three pages of notes and fifteen panes of bibliography"  the
authors.

Beckwourth, real nice photo.  Some other mountain men included.  Good book,
shows real respect where due.

Mike Rock

I am the barrelmaker, and a metallurgical engineer by trade.  Clean your
barrels, whatever the material and they will last.  Don't, they won't.  SS
is subject to BP corrosion as is any ferrous bbl matl.  Actually worse in
some cases.  I have some neglected takeoff bbls that are a real eyeful.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mikwa Trading Post??????????
Date: 16 Feb 1999 00:09:20 -0600

Greg,
  Mikwa trading post moved to either Longview or Tyler TX.  As soon as my
roommate comes home I'll send you the new address.
Chases Hawks

greg n bosen wrote:

> Does anyone have the current phone and address for Mikwa Trading Post?
> 2402 92nd Lubbock, TX 79423 is wrong, they moved and i lost their new
> number and address!!!
>
> Thanks greg
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OIL CLOTH
Date: 17 Feb 1999 19:34:23 -0600

John,
  Good to hear from you.  I have a question, in the documents that show
where the AFC was ordering guns from the J.J. Henry Co. to be shipped to
the mountain rendezvous, they specify that all gun stocks are to be
varnished.  Was the varnish they used anything like what we have access t=
o
today?  I think probably not, but is there anything close ?
Pendleton

----------
> From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OIL CLOTH
> Date: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 11:51 PM
>=20
> I've been off list for a while with computer problems.
>=20
> Oil paint today (except sign painters paint) isn't remotely similar to
the
> barn
> paint you speak of.  Sign paint nearly takes an act of congress to
acquire and
> though artist oil paint would work the drying time could be easier
measured in
> months.  The pigment would be more helpful on cheap open weave (single
fill)
> canvas.  Pigment is nothing but specific high grade dirt, sift the stuf=
f
in
> your yard through a fine (geologists) screen and it will work dandy.
>=20
> Modern boiled linseed also isn't similar to the traditional product.  S=
ee
my
> postings back in late December '97 for detailed information on working
with
> linseed and making stock finish.  The archives also contain extensive
> discussions of waterproofing cloth.  I posted one taken from Rob Allen'=
s
1804
> sometime last year.
>=20
> Personally I prefer a top quality double fill fine woven canvas with no
> waterproofing added.  If you waterproof too much the condensation trapp=
ed
> within negates any benefit of waterproofing, it is best used to protect
goods
> not people.
>=20
> John...
>=20
>=20
>=20
> At 06:55 PM 2/16/99 -0600, you wrote:
> >The discussion about making oil cloth went on for a while here sometim=
e
> >ago.=A0 What is the difference between using the pigment and linseed o=
il
> >method versus just using plain oil-based paint?=A0 It is my understand=
ing
> >that it was common for barn-red paint to be used for such things.=A0 D=
oes
the
> >linseed and pigment produce a better more pliable tarp?=A0 I have used
just
> >straight linseed oil to waterproof a tarp and it worked great.=A0 The =
only
> >down side was the added weight.=A0=20
> >Pendleton
> >=20
> Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
> John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OIL CLOTH
Date: 17 Feb 1999 20:01:39 -0600

Horace Kephardt makes many references to Nesmuk in "Camping & =
Woodcraft", published before WWI and reprinted recently by the Univ. of =
Tennessee Press.  Horace was no slouch himself when it came to skillful =
camping.  Search out this book, too.  It is well worth the trouble.
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----


>
>
>larry pendleton wrote:
>
>> The discussion about making oil cloth went on for a while here =
sometime
>> ago.  ?  I have used just
>> straight linseed oil to waterproof a tarp and it worked great.  The =
only
>> down side was the added weight.
>> Pendleton
>
>Pendelton,
>
>This is not so much an answer to your question as it is an opportunity =
to pass
>on some information that I promised a few days back and just found. I =
think it
>will be of interest considering your last comment about weight.
>
>I direct your attention to the book "Nesmuk, Woodcraft and camping" by =
George
>Washington Sears. Sears wrote for the original "Field and Stream" back =
before
>the turn of the Century. He was described as a latter day "Daniel =
Boone" in
>that he as much reinvented camping for pleasure. In working towards =
that goal,
>Sears explored the Adirondacks in a cedar canoe that weighed something =
like 17
>lbs. or less. He was a very small man in stature and was a great =
advocate for
>going light. In the above book he describes his refined camping methods =
and
>there is a lot that can be used to help the present day reenactor get =
into the
>18th Century quicker if one is careful to consider when things were =
appropriate
>as to time frame.
>
>In this book Sears talks of shelters that he built and used and of =
different
>ways to make them weather tight. Some ideas that he practiced are not
>appropriate to what the buckskinner wants to do, like using nails and =
tacks to
>build his shelter with poles and canvas. But Sears does mention oil =
cloth in
>such a way that gives hints as to what it was. He also gives aa simple =
recipe
>for treating canvas so it will shed water and remain light in weight.
>
>In talking of shelters in Chapter III, Sears mentions using oil cloth =
for a few
>seasons but gave it up because the "glazing began to crack and peel off =
in a
>short time". He went on to say that it made a good shelter "but was a =
trifle
>heavy to pack". Then he mentions making another shelter "soaked in =
lime-water
>and alum". This proved to be much better with regards to  weight and =
able to
>withstand a heavy rain for many hrs.
>
>The recipe for the lime-water and alum is as follows. Using a strong =
cotton
>cloth: to 10 quarts of water add 10 oz of lime, and 4 oz of alum; let =
it stand
>until clear; fold the cloth snugly and put in another vessel, pour the =
solution
>on it, let it soak for 12 hrs.; then rinse in luke-warm rain water, =
stretch and
>dry in the sun, and the tarp is ready to use. You can use what ever =
cotton
>cloth you wish but the major portion of the weight will be in the =
material. I
>would recommend a tightly woven cotton cloth in the less than 6 oz =
weight. Make
>up the shelter before you treat if any sewing needs done.
>
>I recommend the books by Sears whole heartedly. They are informative =
and full
>of ideas on how it was done before the advent of so much of our modern =
camping
>gear. I remain......
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mikwa Trading Post??????????
Date: 16 Feb 1999 03:59:00 -0600

Greg,
   The new address for Mikwa TP is as follows;
          Mikwa Trading Post
          4602 Inverness
          Tyler, TX.  75703
          (888)MIKWA-TP     Fax[phone]

    Chases Hawks

greg n bosen wrote:

> Does anyone have the current phone and address for Mikwa Trading Post?
> 2402 92nd Lubbock, TX 79423 is wrong, they moved and i lost their new
> number and address!!!
>
> Thanks greg
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dennis Fisher <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Barrel Liner?
Date: 17 Feb 1999 18:55:37 -0800

My email seems to take a long time to get to the list so if this has already been
discussed hit the delete key now.

I have read many discussions about what was done when a barrel was "shot out" or for
whatever reason has lost it's accurracy.  The most common practice was to "fresh out"
the barrel.  This usually involved polishing the bore and recutting the riflings.
This would restore a worn out barrel.  In really bad cases the barrel was redrilled to
a larger caliber and new riflings cut.  I would do the same today with my rifle when
it reaches that point.

           Dennis



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bob Aaron" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Mt.Man List - Straight Razors
Date: 16 Feb 1999 12:53:59 -0900

Source for razor, sharpening stones and leather strops (& instructions on
how to do it) at Col.Ichabod Conk's site:
http://www.col-conk.com/straight.htm  Prices & pictures at site.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OIL CLOTH
Date: 18 Feb 1999 01:01:29 -0600

Pendelton,

The short answer is no.

In early parlance the terms shellac, varnish or lacquer were interchangeable
and subject to individual as well as regional interpretation.

Today we've come to recognize shellac as a singular specific material, in=
 the
early nineteenth century it could refer to any spirit (alcohol) base finish;
many resins are spirit soluble. =20

It is more likely the stocks were finished with either oil or volatile oil
varnish.  Sometime back we had extensive discussions of varnish which
should be
in the archive.

Though the term lacquer was used the material was specific to the Orient;
today
it references a modified nitro cellulose product or in the case of water=
 base
lacquer -- synthetic latex or the even more mysterious water based=
 urethanes.

Today nearly every varnish available is wholly synthetic and not very good.=
=20
Look on the can if it states alkyd resins it means it is made of soybeans.=
=20
Traditional volatile oil and oil varnishes were made of tragacanth, hog,
damar,
copal and other tree resins.

By example; I ran an experiment with best grade modern exterior oil paint on
two buildings I own three years ago.  One I prepared with a traditional=
 primer
I made, the other with the paint manufacturers recommended primer.  Both=
 lost
several shades of the carefully chosen color the first year, as I
discovered on
touching up some additional work I did on one of the buildings. =20

The one I treated with the traditional primer is doing the best but the=
 paint
is chalky and needing replacement.  The one done with the manufacturers=
 primer
is peeling off in large sheets.  The paint manufacturer blames EPA=
 regulations
for the lousy quality of the paint.  We are still negotiating who pays to
repaint my sad looking buildings.

In terms of finishes there was a greater variety of better quality used in=
 the
early nineteenth century than today.  Many names of quality materials have
been
hijacked by modern products of inferior quality.  By example; Japan Drier
isn't
remotely similar to the original product, nor boiled linseed, nor barn=
 paint,
nor varnish.  Some have been changed or withdrawn for good reason many=
 simply
to produce a cheaper product.

Making varnish is nearly as hazardous as making black powder though each is
still possible.  Traditionally varnish was applied very thinly, not the=
 thick
heavy coatings popular today.  A proper hand rubbed oil finish wears better=
 on
gunstocks than the best varnish-- over the long term.

I have basically quit using varnish except for small quantities I make to
match
original work in restoration.  A few years back Albert Constantine and Sons=
 of
Bronx, NY offered three natural resin varnishes.  They were not the best=
 I've
used but better than the alternative.  I do not know if they are still
available.

John...



At 07:34 PM 2/17/99 -0600, you wrote:
>John,
>=A0 Good to hear from you.=A0 I have a question, in the documents that show
>where the AFC was ordering guns from the J.J. Henry Co. to be shipped to
>the mountain rendezvous, they specify that all gun stocks are to be
>varnished.=A0 Was the varnish they used anything like what we have access=
 to
>today?=A0 I think probably not, but is there anything close ?
>Pendleton
>
>----------
>> From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail]
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OIL CLOTH
>> Date: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 11:51 PM
>>=20
>> I've been off list for a while with computer problems.
>>=20
>> Oil paint today (except sign painters paint) isn't remotely similar to
>the
>> barn
>> paint you speak of.=A0 Sign paint nearly takes an act of congress to
>acquire and
>> though artist oil paint would work the drying time could be easier
>measured in
>> months.=A0 The pigment would be more helpful on cheap open weave (single
>fill)
>> canvas.=A0 Pigment is nothing but specific high grade dirt, sift the=
 stuff
>in
>> your yard through a fine (geologists) screen and it will work dandy.
>>=20
>> Modern boiled linseed also isn't similar to the traditional product.=A0=
 See
>my
>> postings back in late December '97 for detailed information on working
>with
>> linseed and making stock finish.=A0 The archives also contain extensive
>> discussions of waterproofing cloth.=A0 I posted one taken from Rob=
 Allen's
>1804
>> sometime last year.
>>=20
>> Personally I prefer a top quality double fill fine woven canvas with no
>> waterproofing added.=A0 If you waterproof too much the condensation=
 trapped
>> within negates any benefit of waterproofing, it is best used to protect
>goods
>> not people.
>>=20
>> John...
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> At 06:55 PM 2/16/99 -0600, you wrote:
>> >The discussion about making oil cloth went on for a while here sometime
>> >ago.=A0 What is the difference between using the pigment and linseed oil
>> >method versus just using plain oil-based paint?=A0 It is my=
 understanding
>> >that it was common for barn-red paint to be used for such things.=A0=
 Does
>the
>> >linseed and pigment produce a better more pliable tarp?=A0 I have used
>just
>> >straight linseed oil to waterproof a tarp and it worked great.=A0 The=
 only
>> >down side was the added weight.=A0=20
>> >Pendleton
>> >=20
>> Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
>> John Kramer=A0 <[e-mail]>
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Charlie P. Webb" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo extinction
Date: 18 Feb 1999 08:48:47 -0700

Chris,
Your comments also fit a problem we now have in Colorado,
that is our declining Deer population.  The D.O.W. for
years has poo pooed the idea that there were less Deer now
residing within the State than there were 20 years ago.  Now
that it is nearly too late to save the herd they are admitting
that indeed the Deer population is and has been declining for
several years and that they should have reacted earlier.
Their plan/method of combatting this problem is all Deer
licenses after 1999 will be draw only.  Kind of dumb to my way
of thinking , but then I am not a wildlife biologist.  Little thought
has been given to the fact that the existing three point restriction
on Mule Deer Bucks puts the hunting pressure on the older more
mature and genetically stronger Bucks.  When the stronger Bucks
are harvested from the herd this leaves only the weaker less
mature Bucks to carry on and perpetuate.  I personally enjoy
hunting and occasionally taking nice big trophy sized Muley Buck,
but if necessary to save our herd, I certainly would give up my
hunting privileges to allow the Deer population to resurrect
itself and possibly climb back in numbers to near their former high.
If we eliminate the genetically strong Bucks, continue to encroach
on their habitat and winter ranges, then all the Deer may go the
way  of the Buff.  All of the above may be moot however as the
Colorado State Wildlife Commission for various reasons (read
in-line manufacturer pressures.) are seriously considering the total
elimination of our special "Muzzle Loading Season"  (originally
"Primitive Rifle Season") here in Colorado.
Respectfully,
Old Coyote
CC CO

>On The Decline of buffalo, You don't have to shoot em all you just
>have to
>affect calf mortality and the reproductive rate.  Large Herbivores are
>generally
>slow to bring calves to breeding age.  If  you affect the reproductive
>rate a
>population will go into decline, and become worse each year if you add
>habitat
>loss, Disruption of migration routes and any natural causes such as
>bad weather
>will put the population into a tailspin.  If you will recall, bison
>used to live
>east of the mississippi, and they were hunted and farmed out in short
>order.
>Your most onry' and disobdient hivernant
>Sega
>
>
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Afr-Amer trappers
Date: 18 Feb 1999 15:11:17 -0600


>Long John, Henry & others,
>
>Just yesterday I ran across this page:
>
>http://www.coax.net/people/lwf/furtrade.htm
>
>It is Bill Gwaltney's essay "Beyond the Pale   African Americans in the Fur
>Trade West"  Excellent reading.  Is this the same info that you were
>looking >up, Henry?
>
>Red Coyote

RC,
Yes, exactly the same.  Bill told me it was on the web, but I could never
find it, and he couldn't remember the URL (who could.)  That's essentially
his lecture.  Thanks a bunch.

Cheers,
HBC



****************************************
Henry B. Crawford    Box 43191
Curator of History    Museum of Texas Tech University
[e-mail]    Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
806/742-2442     FAX [phone]
              Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because It's There  ******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Gum
Date: 18 Feb 1999 16:42:56 EST

Howdy friends

In the York Boat Bill of Goods, 1803 list found on the Mountain Man web page
there is an entry which puzzles me. It reads:  "12 lb.   Paper wrapped
packages of Gum"
What would this be? Perhaps some sort of glue? any ideas?

Happy Trails

Todd Glover



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Food the old way
Date: 18 Feb 1999 17:48:23 -0600

Walt,
Sounds like some interesting reading. Where did you get it?

From the northwoods,

Tony Clark




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Food the old way
Date: 18 Feb 1999 17:57:33 -0600

oops! Sent to wrong list!

Sorry


-----Original Message-----


>Walt,
>Sounds like some interesting reading. Where did you get it?
>
>>From the northwoods,
>
>Tony Clark
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gum
Date: 18 Feb 1999 18:50:45 -0600

Todd,

As the bill of lading didn't come with instructions and was translated from
the
original French some of these items are a little mysterious. =20

Best guess is: it references pine pitch for repairing canoes.  It is in the
same section as other maintenance supplies, was a needed item, and is an
alternative term of the period.

It could be gum arabic, gum balsam, or any other of the various tree gums
commonly used during the period.  We can only be certain it wasn't=
 Wrigley's.

John...



At 04:42 PM 2/18/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Howdy friends
>
>In the York Boat Bill of Goods, 1803 list found on the Mountain Man web=
 page
>there is an entry which puzzles me. It reads:=A0 "12 lb.=A0=A0 Paper=
 wrapped
>packages of Gum"
>What would this be? Perhaps some sort of glue? any ideas?
>
>Happy Trails
>
>Todd Glover
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo extinction
Date: 18 Feb 1999 18:32:11 -0700

Charlie,
The decline of the mule deer in Colorado is similar to the white tail deer
in PA forty years ago, population growth with cities getting larger and
larger. PA saw a time with the interbreeding and small sizes that they
closed the season for several years and brought in "stock deer" for
breeding. I know in 1955 you could buy four tags and take either sex, this
was a cleaning method of reducing the numbers, then the season closed. Funny
thing this method worked and now they seem to be reaching that time again.

In Colorado thirty five years ago the mule deer enjoyed large numbers with
little "plains" mulies or white tails, now the mule deer are going down for
several reasons and the "plains deer" and white tail herds are larger than
ever. I use to live on a farm northwest of Loveland CO and have had many
dealings with CSU and Fish & Game about sick mulies that needed to be put
down, many were found to have a brain disease (can't remember name, they
would stop eating), others were having lung problems (lost their total use
of part to all of a lung) similar to the Rocky Mountain Sheep. Many have
been just "stressed out" from the growth of humans and loss of previous
feeding ranges, or moved back so far that they have changed their feeding
habits. The research lab at CSU is an interesting place to visit in Ft.
Collins.

I was involved with the original small group that got the first muzzle
loading season in this state and lobbied for a dozen years to keep it (I'm
told that their are only 5 or 6 of that group left now), this season is not
a given, it has to have interested parties lobby every couple years to
retain it or - its history. We could never get it put on the books as a
regular season like high power or archery, the House still believes it cost
the tax payers to run a special season, that why the muzzle loading season
for elk and deer has always had low number for animals to be taken. Funny
how a few thousand permits are available, yet they have had over 50,000
requests and it doesn't make money !!!!

As far as the buffalo declining much of the problem has been hashed over
several times, most everyone's thoughts are pretty close, a combination of
differnet items and our government wanting to gain control of large pieces
of ground that the native Americans lived on, the easiest way was, get rid
of their food - the buffalo.

Sorry to get off the subject with the Colorado muzzle loading thing, its
just been part of me since the late '60's.

Buck

-----Original Message-----


>Chris,
>Your comments also fit a problem we now have in Colorado,
>that is our declining Deer population.  The D.O.W. for
>years has poo pooed the idea that there were less Deer now
>residing within the State than there were 20 years ago.  Now
>that it is nearly too late to save the herd they are admitting
>that indeed the Deer population is and has been declining for
>several years and that they should have reacted earlier.
>Their plan/method of combatting this problem is all Deer
>licenses after 1999 will be draw only.  Kind of dumb to my way
>of thinking , but then I am not a wildlife biologist.  Little thought
>has been given to the fact that the existing three point restriction
>on Mule Deer Bucks puts the hunting pressure on the older more
>mature and genetically stronger Bucks.  When the stronger Bucks
>are harvested from the herd this leaves only the weaker less
>mature Bucks to carry on and perpetuate.  I personally enjoy
>hunting and occasionally taking nice big trophy sized Muley Buck,
>but if necessary to save our herd, I certainly would give up my
>hunting privileges to allow the Deer population to resurrect
>itself and possibly climb back in numbers to near their former high.
>If we eliminate the genetically strong Bucks, continue to encroach
>on their habitat and winter ranges, then all the Deer may go the
>way  of the Buff.  All of the above may be moot however as the
>Colorado State Wildlife Commission for various reasons (read
>in-line manufacturer pressures.) are seriously considering the total
>elimination of our special "Muzzle Loading Season"  (originally
>"Primitive Rifle Season") here in Colorado.
>Respectfully,
>Old Coyote
>CC CO





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ron and Gayle Harris" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:bounty
Date: 18 Feb 1999 20:02:31 -0600

: Re: MtMan-List: bounty

>Lanney,
> You are GOOD at one of a kind items from craftsmen, you are lucky there
>isn't a warning flyer out about you.. If you weren't so damned cuddly,
there
>would be a bounty on your ass...
>Love,
>D
>>
>GEEEZ, How vmuch bounty???
(per each or.............?)









-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Graniteware
Date: 18 Feb 1999 19:29:19 -0700

Thanks for the address.  Will be contacting them soon.

DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants

Laurel huber wrote:
>Okay, Keas Duo, here you go:
>    C & D Jarnagin Company
>    PO Box 1860
>    Corinth, MS 38835-1860
>Phone: [phone] or...www.avsia.com/jarnagin/jarnagin.html
>You want their 18th Century catalog(they do much Civil War stuff).  My
issue is
>from 1996 and cost $3.00.  Good luck.
>
>Larry Huber
>Shoots-the-Prairie
>
>Phyllis and Don Keas wrote:
>
>> Need one, so what would be the address, phone # or e-mail for
Jarnigin?
>>
>> DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants
>>
>> Laurel huber wrote:
>> >Dear Joe,
>> >    I doubt that any trapper or Fur Brigade brought a coffee POT
along
>> with 'em.
>> >I'm referring to a flared bottomed, pitcher-shaped boiler with a lid,
>> handle and
>> >bail.  Like the kind cowboys use in all those movies. It was just too
>> >specific an
>> >item to pack along.  Coffee and tea kettles shaped like that did
exist
>> but
>> >stayed
>> >in the settlements indoors.  A coffee kettle(a tea kettle boils
water, a
>> tea pot
>> >brews tea in water)in the mountains would have been a straight-sided
>> can-shape
>> >with a bail.  It could be used for coffee, tea, water, stew, or soup.
>> There are
>> >nice sketches of them by Miller in his works: "Indians Encamped on
the
>> Eau Sucre
>> >River" and "Our Camp".  If you buy one by catalog from Jarnigin, it's
>> called an
>> >"1820 Period Coffee Pot" and is copied from a dig from a 6th US
Infantry
>> camp
>> >dated 1820.  Made of  heavy tin.  Works good for coffee and whatever.
>> >
>> >Larry "Shoots-the-Prairie" Huber
>> >
>> >[e-mail] wrote:
>> >
>> >> Since they didn't have enamel ware and coffee and tea were drank.
>> What did
>> >> they use for coffee pots?  I have seen copper tea pots, but what
about
>> coffee
>> >> pots?
>> >>
>> >>                                                 TrapRJoe
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >RFC822 header
>> >-----------------------------------
>> >
>> >Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com
with
>> ESMTP
>> >  (SMTPD32-4.03) id A811E040126; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 20:37:53 MDT
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20:35:52
>-0700
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>> >       by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1)
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-0700
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TAA04867
>> >       for <[e-mail]>; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:35:47
-0800
>> (PST)
>> >Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
>> >Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:44:44 -0800
>> >From: Laurel huber <[e-mail]>
>> >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I)
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>> >To: [e-mail]
>> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Graniteware
>> >References: <[e-mail]>
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>> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>RFC822 header
>-----------------------------------
>
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>[209.179.130.26])
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>    for <[e-mail]>; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:57:07 -0800
(PST)
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>Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:11:08 -0800
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>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo extinction
Date: 18 Feb 1999 19:54:42 -0800



Old Coyote,

I will agree, even with all of the science behind population biology the
problems with the managed herds still pop up.  too many damn beurocrats in
the wildlife departments.  And as usual we muzzleloaders get screwed.  On
the trophy idea.  Generally the really large bucks have already passed on
their genes and so it does not generally affect the genetics of the herd
too badly.  What is messing up the herds is lack of migration, which brings
new genes into the pool.

Your most onry' and disobedient hivernant.
Sega




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:bounty
Date: 18 Feb 1999 23:02:48 -0500

Ron,
 I figger he's worth $5. American....Mebby...
D

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


>: Re: MtMan-List: bounty
>
>>Lanney,
>> You are GOOD at one of a kind items from craftsmen, you are lucky there
>>isn't a warning flyer out about you.. If you weren't so damned cuddly,
>there
>>would be a bounty on your ass...
>>Love,
>>D
>>>
>>GEEEZ, How vmuch bounty???
>(per each or.............?)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo extinction
Date: 19 Feb 1999 09:40:30 EST

Colorado's problem is from having a bunch of anti-hunting people on their
wildlife commission.  To reinstate trapping could help the deer population as
this natural predator as had the pressure taken off, since trapping has been
so strictly restricted.

                            TrapRJoe



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: special hunting seasons
Date: 19 Feb 1999 08:28:24 -0700

The biggest problem Joe is, lack of support by the hunters, EX.: when 50,000
plus apply for a muzzle loading permit and the membership of the Colorado
State Muzzle Loading Assn (the group that keeps the season by lobbing for
it) is less than 1,500, few listen to their wants. This has been a problem
since day one of this season (several of us where there from the begining),
and 1,500 is probably about 300 heavy. I have sat on a number of boards
working with the DOW, the bottom line is how many you can get to lobby, in
20 years of pushing this season in a number of positions for the CSMLA an
average lobby number is 250-300 on a good turn-out, the board for the DOW
looks at a turn-out like that as a joke. We would get better support for the
season from out of state hunters like, Texas, Kansas and several east coast
states, than the guy down the street with his new TC he's never shot, but
applied for a permit because its a nice time of the year.

In Pennsylvania, their season is on the books as a "regular available
hunting season", why because they have hunters that will do what is needed
to keep their season, as many of the other states across this land have also
done. I know about this season in PA and how the system works from a
relation that has been involved on the ground floor since it was started.

The Colorado Archery Assn. pulls 700-800 for a lobby turn-out, we have never
figured what it takes to get those wanting this season to work for it, too
easy to let others do the work, make the calls and write the letters.

Same thing happened with Denver and its gun laws within the city, now we're
trying to get them thrown out for a better state wide law and again its
about numbers again, good chance we maybe stuck with what's on the books,
hope not, but when the talley is taken who knows.

Buck

-----Original Message-----


>Colorado's problem is from having a bunch of anti-hunting people on their
>wildlife commission.  To reinstate trapping could help the deer population
as
>this natural predator as had the pressure taken off, since trapping has
been
>so strictly restricted.
>
> TrapRJoe
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Charlie P. Webb" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo extinction
Date: 19 Feb 1999 13:54:06 -0700

Buck Conner,
Don't disagree with your post one bit, but would like to say that
there are a lot of us out in woods that do appreciate you and the
group ( yes I know a good many of the outhouse gang ! ) for
all of your efforts, time and out of pocket moneys spent
fighting for our muzzle loading rights and needs.  It may seem
that your efforts have been forgotten or gone unnoticed, but that
simply is not so!!  What we have enjoyed these past years is
indeed the fruits of those who have gone before us,  and I
guarantee we will continue to fight for the same reasons you
all did.  We do have a big obstacle facing us now, but with
input from CSMLA members and hopefully a united front of
the muzzle loading community  (meaning more folks joining
and supporting the CSMLA) I believe the fight will be a good
one.   I must sadly admit that I feel that the Commission may
have already made  it's decision and is simply playing a game
with us.  They have done that many times in the past, why
should this issue be any different?  Hope I am wrong.

Respectfully,
Charlie
CC CO



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Charlie P. Webb" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Colorado Woe's
Date: 19 Feb 1999 13:16:21 -0700

TrapR Joe,
You will be certainly welcome at the CSMLA Wildlife Meeting
Saturday March 6th at 10:00 AM  at the Radisson Hotel.
Greystone Castle Thornton Colorado I-25 and 120th Ave to
present  your ideas to our board.  We have not ceased to fight
for the Primitive Hunting Season since Buck Conners left the
scene,  however the battle is much more uphill now than it was
then.  The issue at that time was acquiring a special season
for primitive rifles.  It was a long and difficult battle and those
who fought it and stayed out the fight are to be strongly
applauded, it was a good and just cause.  The issue now is
what must we do to save what we have fought so long and
hard for? The meeting Saturday is to hear what the CSMLA
members feel we should do, what plan of attack do we adopt.
It would be easy for us the members of the board to offer our
best opinion, but that most likely would not be same opinion
as that of muzzle loaders through out the state we have been
elected to represent.  Our goal is to represent all Colorado
muzzle loaders and hopefully design a plan that will appeal
to the D.O.W. and the Wildlife Commission that will allow us
to retain our hunting season.  Everyone will be welcome to
attend the Wildlife meeting, so y'alll come!  Buck, your post
was dead nuts on,  numbers stated are very accurate and
content told it like it is!  Buck if you can  make it, I'll bring
ya yer badge!   TrapR Joe, I don't disagree one bit with your
comments,  it was a dumb thing eliminating trapping.  Many
D.O.W folks agree as well, but as you well know  "Politics rule"!
The only reason most of the Commission members are on it, is
because of their stroking the Governor (there is another name
for it <<GGG>>) to gain his political favor.  They have little or
no background for what they are appointed to do.
    List; Please accept my apology for using your time
and band width  to voice Colorado's hunting woe's. I have
done so because I believe the out come of Colorados muzzle
loading season battle might possibly impact all states and their
muzzle loading  rights or hunting seasons in the near future.

Respectfully,
Old Coyote

>state trapping could help the deer
>population as
>this natural predator as had the pressure taken off, since trapping
>has been
>so strictly restricted.
>
>                            TrapRJoe
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: special hunting seasons
Date: 19 Feb 1999 17:09:32 EST

Buck,
Seems like the same old problem nationwide.  We have it in New England also.
Problem is when there is an anti-trapping bill, not only do the anti-trapping
people show up but all the anti-hunting, anti-muzzleloading, anti-fishing and
all the other "anti's" show up.  Who usually shows up on our side?  You got
it.  On a trapping bill, the trappers show up.  On a muzzle loading bill, the
MLs show up, etc.  If we can only learn to all support each other, the results
could be significantly different.  Imagine what would happen if at an anti-
trapping hearing not only the trappers showed up, but ML hunters, Bow hunters,
regular hunters, and fishermen all showed up to support the trappers!  It high
time we learn to support one another if we want trapping, bowhunting, muzzle
loading, regular hunting and even fishing activities to survive.  What was it?
We better all hang together or we will surely all hang separately.  Sure
enough!  Unfortunately, apathy on our side usually prevails and the "anti's"
win out because they stick together and support all anti-sport programs.  It
seems that, in this case, quantity and not quality often wins out.
Take care,
Bob "Hawker" Valade



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: special hunting seasons
Date: 19 Feb 1999 19:50:48 -0700

Charlie, Bob and members of this list,

The two replies by Charlie and the one by Bob show that we need to band
together if we want to keep our hunting freedoms, as well as the other
wonderful pleasures we are allowed to have living in these United States.
Look at our friends to the north, many of their laws are ones we are
starting to see appear here, first they lost their side arms, now complete
registration by the first part of the new century.

Brothers and sisters this can, and possibly will happen here, Charles E.
Hanson Jr (Museum of the Fur Trade) friend, told me twenty five years ago
that someday it will happen as mentioned, because of the poor support that
the sportsman show when asked for letters, calls or just changing your vote
for an elected officals. A few years ago he told me that he would have been
better off buying collectable cars than the fur trade guns, because when
they come to plug the barrels, he'll burn the whole damn mess, along with
the collecters.

As we all grow older, many of us are starting to see where he was coming
from, what the hell does it take to get all to work as a group, all
sportsman, to save a gift that our forefathers fought and died for. Small
groups do not work, we have tried that, many a family have been broken up
because of the deciation and long hours given to the cause by some of the
ones fighting for all. I know and several of the old gang know that we
should have taken care of business at home, instead of the sportsman's
business, that's all water under the bridge. I told Grizz Ball, many of you
know him (one of the Out-House Gang in Colorado) when we go to the other
side, lets hope we are remembered as the ones that fought, and maybe they'll
forget all the ass chewings we handed out in the fight.

Damn it boys I thought we were over the hump, but from what Charlie says,
here we go again. This new wife is better than the other one and she knows
me pretty good, so Charlie, have a badge ready I'll be there at 10:00 AM in
Thornton, CO, need to trade a work day but I be there.

See Bob, once you get involved and have been in the fight you can't stop for
what you believe in, you an Charlie and a few others are like that too. Its
like you and your brothers in the east, your always busy fighting one
problem after another for them and half of them don't even say "thanks",
Charlie and the group in Colorado are the same, the only thing you'll here
is, the one wanting to know why he didn't get what he wanted. I don't know
how to get all of the sportsman to come together and work as a large body,
hell the NRA has been trying for a century.

Friends in Canada say they were fighting a loosing battle before they got
started, and it seems like it has come home to roost, so lets hope everyone
passes the word on to friends and sportsman that are not on this list, to
get involved with what's happening in your state, join your local
associations, join the NRA, write those letter to your elected folks, let
them know they can kiss your vote good bye if they don't help make a stand.

Please excuse me for taking up so much space, when our rights are messed
with I go off on a fit, the wife says someday I get locked up for expressing
myself to the wrong people. I guess if that's what it takes to get their
attention, so be it.

Buck
_______________________________
-----Original Message-----


>Buck,
>Seems like the same old problem nationwide.  We have it in New England
also.
>Problem is when there is an anti-trapping bill, not only do the
anti-trapping
>people show up but all the anti-hunting, anti-muzzleloading, anti-fishing
and
>all the other "anti's" show up.  Who usually shows up on our side?  You got
>it.  On a trapping bill, the trappers show up.  On a muzzle loading bill,
the
>MLs show up, etc.  If we can only learn to all support each other, the
results
>could be significantly different.  Imagine what would happen if at an anti-
>trapping hearing not only the trappers showed up, but ML hunters, Bow
hunters,
>regular hunters, and fishermen all showed up to support the trappers!  It
high
>time we learn to support one another if we want trapping, bowhunting,
muzzle
>loading, regular hunting and even fishing activities to survive.  What was
it?
>We better all hang together or we will surely all hang separately.  Sure
>enough!  Unfortunately, apathy on our side usually prevails and the
"anti's"
>win out because they stick together and support all anti-sport programs.
It
>seems that, in this case, quantity and not quality often wins out.
>Take care,
>Bob "Hawker" Valade
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Winter Convention
Date: 19 Feb 1999 20:10:03 -0700

How many of us on this list will be at the CSMLRA Winter Convention in
Denver in March?

DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Douglas  Hepner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Wes Housler
Date: 19 Feb 1999 22:02:19 -0600

    Does anyone know where I may aquire "Dress and Equipage of the Mountain
Men" by Wes Housler?

"Dull Hawk"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Winter Convention
Date: 20 Feb 1999 00:54:00 -0500

If I lived in Colorado, most definately... However, I live in Florida...

-----Original Message-----


>How many of us on this list will be at the CSMLRA Winter Convention in
>Denver in March?
>
>DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants
>
>
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wes Housler
Date: 20 Feb 1999 00:54:28 -0500

Check with Amazon.com


-----Original Message-----


>    Does anyone know where I may aquire "Dress and Equipage of the Mountain
>Men" by Wes Housler?
>
>"Dull Hawk"
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Winter Convention
Date: 20 Feb 1999 20:23:08 -0500

Can you tell us more about this event.  Maybe a "few" of us from FLa. can go
or maybe next year with more notice.

Linda Holley

sean wrote:

> If I lived in Colorado, most definately... However, I live in Florida...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
> To: History Text <[e-mail]>
> Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 10:08 PM
> Subject: MtMan-List: Winter Convention
>
> >How many of us on this list will be at the CSMLRA Winter Convention in
> >Denver in March?
> >
> >DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants
> >
> >
> >
> >



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wes Housler
Date: 20 Feb 1999 20:21:59 -0500

His books and tapes are sold through Crazy Crow Trading post.
Also advertised in the NMLRA mag.  and The one out of Texas.

Linda Holley

sean wrote:

> Check with Amazon.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Douglas Hepner <[e-mail]>
> To: Mtn Man Discussion Group <[e-mail]>
> Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 11:06 PM
> Subject: MtMan-List: Wes Housler
>
> >    Does anyone know where I may aquire "Dress and Equipage of the Mountain
> >Men" by Wes Housler?
> >
> >"Dull Hawk"
> >
> >



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jody Carlson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wes Housler
Date: 20 Feb 1999 14:00:23 -0600

Dull Hawk & other readers;

Wes Housler's book can be obtained from

Rocky Mt College Productions
22 Bell Canyon Rd.
Cloudcroft, NM  88317

or call at 505-687-3267

price for book is $19.95 + 4.50 S&H
book and video for $32.95 + 4.50 S&H

I hope that helps.

Yr Mst Obt Servt,
Scott Carlson



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Barrel Liner?
Date: 20 Feb 1999 04:06:37 EST

In a message dated 99-02-18 00:49:41 EST, you write:

<<  The most common practice was to "fresh out"
 the barrel.  This usually involved polishing the bore and recutting the
riflings.
 This would restore a worn out barrel.  In really bad cases the barrel was
redrilled to
 a larger caliber and new riflings cut.  I would do the same today with my
rifle when
 it reaches that point. >>

Very true, however, to the best of my knowledge, there's only one guy still
doing that kind of work.  He's expensive, & has about a 2 yr back log.  Like
relining, I'd only do it to a barrel on an origional in it's restoration -- IF
it's a good solid barrel & will stand a fresh out.  I read somewhere that Bill
Wiliams' rifle had been freshed out so many times the muzzle looked like a
cave!  If you need to re-do a reproduction rifle, it'd be much cheaper just to
replace the barrel.  HOWEVER ------ IF you want to tackle the job yourself,
instructions are in "Foxfire 5".  Think I'd expirament on a junk barrel before
I tried it on a barrel I cared about.

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Gum
Date: 21 Feb 1999 09:35:09 -0700

The gum on the 1803 York boat list is almost certainly the pine
pitch/charcoal mixture used for gumming canoes and, presumably, York boats.
I very much doubt that it was wrapped in paper--I suspect that the term
"parchment", meaning rawhide, has been mistranslated. Gum is frequently
mentioned in English fur trade journals of this period. Gathering & making
gum was frequently the job of fur traders' country wives.

 It is quite unusual that this York boat bill of lading was originally in
French; York boats were used by the HBC, whose clerks were almost entirely
English-speaking. York boats were significantly different from canoes in
almost every way--materials, construction, navigation, portaging, and
capacity being the most significant differences.

In haste,
Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Charlie P. Webb" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Winter Convention
Date: 21 Feb 1999 08:55:28 -0700

Linda,
The Colorado State Muzzle Loading Associations Winter
Convention was born many years ago as a method of
treating "Cabin Fever".  Many of us Buckskinners,
Mountaineers, renactors and such needed a way to break
the daily monotony and doldrums of winter camp.  I don't
know who first came up with the idea of holding a Winter
Convention on a State level, could have been the original
founders of the CSMLA  (The Out House Gang ) anyway
it was and is a great fun time.  My wife and I have attended
every one since the beginning, it's a great way to get together
with old friends and meet new ones.  Our main goal is to
interest  new folks in the use of primitive firearms with safety
stressed from the gitgo,  to Living History, Buckskinning,
Long Hunters or what ever your cup of tea might be. It is also
a part of our goal to "kick the hivernants" in the pants and
rekindle their enthusiasm for our sport. We invite qualified
instructors do classes (much like our Rocky Mountain College Rendezvous
August 8-15) on subjects of their choice pertaining
to their period of interest.  We simply say pre-1840, actually
we have folks involved from the early 1750's thru the F&I to the
Revolution  and on up through the America's involvement in Fur
hunting and trading.  We also have a growing number of folks
interested in as I choose to call it, The War of The Northern
Invasion, even though this event began in 1860 they are also
welcome.  We turn no one away from our door, we try to include
and offer things of interest to all of the  Muzzle Loading
Community, not just one facet of the sport.  Since we are
attempting to interest new people in what we do, we are not
"clothes police" we speak of  authenticity, but are not going
to criticize or chastise any one who is trying, but hasn't quite
done enough research to create the perfect outfit or persona.
Shucks, I began playing this living history thing back in 1947
and am still trying to get it right.  Some of us are just a bit
slower than others. <<GAG>> We have a good traders room
and attempt to showcase only period wares, however as in
all things, something sometimes falls through a crack.  We also
have a Banquet and awards ceremony Saturday evening, then
for me the most fun, an auction of goods donated by traders
or any one that has something neat pertaining to muzzle
loading.  Items are from canvas goods, leather bags and such,
Damascus knives, carved antler handled knives, trade silver,
fire irons,  (we have several excellent blacksmiths in CSMLA)
you name it, it will probably be on the auction block.  In 1999
we have four class rooms with hourly selections for the learning
experience. Everything from basic flint lock to a class I do
on the etiquette of photography and camera use at rendezvous
and living history events.  This year at 10:00 AM all class rooms
will be closed so all that can will attend the Wildlife meeting.  It
is critical that we have as much input from the members as
possible so that a plan can be developed to hopefully preserve
our Muzzle Loading Season.  One need not be a member to
attend, but naturally the more members we can acquire the
stronger our bargaining platform with the DOW will be.  Linda
our Winter Convention is a fun thing, perhaps not as authentic
as some would like, but we are trying cover a large block of
time as best we can.  The Rocky Mountain College and the
Winter Convention  was designed to be learning experiences
for pilgrims, however it has grown into much more that.
We also hold the associations business meeting and the
election of new officers and board members at the Winter
Con. It is my personal opinion based on reading your past
posts that you might enjoy the Rocky Mountain College
a bit more than the Winter Con.  The College runs for 8 days,
and the Winter Con. for 2 days.  The RM College is not
totally primitive, we try to acomodate as many folks as we
can. We offer a Tin Tipi camp, Handicap camp, and long term
primitive and short term primitive camps.  Since the event is
held in Bayou Salado  a favorite hang out for Bridger, Carson,
Beckwith and Jim Baker the flavor is definitely western
Mountaineer or Mountain Man.  Didn't intend for this to turn
into a book,  but if you need or want more information you
may feel free to contact my wife or  myself.  Thank you for
your interest.

Respectfully,
C Webb
AKA Old Coyote
CC CO

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
>> To: History Text <[e-mail]>
>> Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 10:08 PM
>> Subject: MtMan-List: Winter Convention
>>
>> >How many of us on this list will be at the CSMLRA Winter Convention
>in
>> >Denver in March?
>> >
>> >DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Winter Convention
Date: 21 Feb 1999 12:50:38 -0700

Charlie,

You did yourself proud, we just need to get the numbers for another DOW
fight.

Buck
____________________-
-----Original Message-----


>Linda,
>The Colorado State Muzzle Loading Associations Winter
>Convention was born many years ago as a method of
>treating "Cabin Fever".  Many of us Buckskinners,
>Mountaineers, renactors and such needed a way to break
>the daily monotony and doldrums of winter camp.  I don't
>know who first came up with the idea of holding a Winter
>Convention on a State level, could have been the original
>founders of the CSMLA  (The Out House Gang ) anyway
>it was and is a great fun time.  My wife and I have attended
>every one since the beginning, it's a great way to get together
>with old friends and meet new ones.  Our main goal is to
>interest  new folks in the use of primitive firearms with safety
>stressed from the gitgo,  to Living History, Buckskinning,
>Long Hunters or what ever your cup of tea might be. It is also
>a part of our goal to "kick the hivernants" in the pants and
>rekindle their enthusiasm for our sport. We invite qualified
>instructors do classes (much like our Rocky Mountain College Rendezvous
>August 8-15) on subjects of their choice pertaining
>to their period of interest.  We simply say pre-1840, actually
>we have folks involved from the early 1750's thru the F&I to the
>Revolution  and on up through the America's involvement in Fur
>hunting and trading.  We also have a growing number of folks
>interested in as I choose to call it, The War of The Northern
>Invasion, even though this event began in 1860 they are also
>welcome.  We turn no one away from our door, we try to include
>and offer things of interest to all of the  Muzzle Loading
>Community, not just one facet of the sport.  Since we are
>attempting to interest new people in what we do, we are not
>"clothes police" we speak of  authenticity, but are not going
>to criticize or chastise any one who is trying, but hasn't quite
>done enough research to create the perfect outfit or persona.
>Shucks, I began playing this living history thing back in 1947
>and am still trying to get it right.  Some of us are just a bit
>slower than others. <<GAG>> We have a good traders room
>and attempt to showcase only period wares, however as in
>all things, something sometimes falls through a crack.  We also
>have a Banquet and awards ceremony Saturday evening, then
>for me the most fun, an auction of goods donated by traders
>or any one that has something neat pertaining to muzzle
>loading.  Items are from canvas goods, leather bags and such,
>Damascus knives, carved antler handled knives, trade silver,
>fire irons,  (we have several excellent blacksmiths in CSMLA)
>you name it, it will probably be on the auction block.  In 1999
>we have four class rooms with hourly selections for the learning
>experience. Everything from basic flint lock to a class I do
>on the etiquette of photography and camera use at rendezvous
>and living history events.  This year at 10:00 AM all class rooms
>will be closed so all that can will attend the Wildlife meeting.  It
>is critical that we have as much input from the members as
>possible so that a plan can be developed to hopefully preserve
>our Muzzle Loading Season.  One need not be a member to
>attend, but naturally the more members we can acquire the
>stronger our bargaining platform with the DOW will be.  Linda
>our Winter Convention is a fun thing, perhaps not as authentic
>as some would like, but we are trying cover a large block of
>time as best we can.  The Rocky Mountain College and the
>Winter Convention  was designed to be learning experiences
>for pilgrims, however it has grown into much more that.
>We also hold the associations business meeting and the
>election of new officers and board members at the Winter
>Con. It is my personal opinion based on reading your past
>posts that you might enjoy the Rocky Mountain College
>a bit more than the Winter Con.  The College runs for 8 days,
>and the Winter Con. for 2 days.  The RM College is not
>totally primitive, we try to acomodate as many folks as we
>can. We offer a Tin Tipi camp, Handicap camp, and long term
>primitive and short term primitive camps.  Since the event is
>held in Bayou Salado  a favorite hang out for Bridger, Carson,
>Beckwith and Jim Baker the flavor is definitely western
>Mountaineer or Mountain Man.  Didn't intend for this to turn
>into a book,  but if you need or want more information you
>may feel free to contact my wife or  myself.  Thank you for
>your interest.
>
>Respectfully,
>C Webb
>AKA Old Coyote
>CC CO
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
>>> To: History Text <[e-mail]>
>>> Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 10:08 PM
>>> Subject: MtMan-List: Winter Convention
>>>
>>> >How many of us on this list will be at the CSMLRA Winter Convention
>>in
>>> >Denver in March?
>>> >
>>> >DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>
>>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Gum
Date: 21 Feb 1999 12:52:37 -0700

You beat me to the reply Angela, what is shown is what I have found.

Buck
_________________
-----Original Message-----


>The gum on the 1803 York boat list is almost certainly the pine
>pitch/charcoal mixture used for gumming canoes and, presumably, York boats.
>I very much doubt that it was wrapped in paper--I suspect that the term
>"parchment", meaning rawhide, has been mistranslated. Gum is frequently
>mentioned in English fur trade journals of this period. Gathering & making
>gum was frequently the job of fur traders' country wives.
>
> It is quite unusual that this York boat bill of lading was originally in
>French; York boats were used by the HBC, whose clerks were almost entirely
>English-speaking. York boats were significantly different from canoes in
>almost every way--materials, construction, navigation, portaging, and
>capacity being the most significant differences.
>
>In haste,
>Your humble & obedient servant,
>Angela Gottfred
>[e-mail]
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Winter Convention
Date: 21 Feb 1999 15:20:28 -0500

Thanks for the INFORMATION.  It definitely explained everything.  I cannot
go in the summer anymore because they have changed my job starting to the
1st. of August.  But I am interested in the March doings.


Linda

"Charlie P. Webb" wrote:

> Linda,
> The Colorado State Muzzle Loading Associations Winter
> Convention was born many years ago as a method of
> treating "Cabin Fever".  Many of us Buckskinners,
> Mountaineers, renactors and such needed a way to break
> the daily monotony and doldrums of winter camp.  I don't
> know who first came up with the idea of holding a Winter
> Convention on a State level, could have been the original
> founders of the CSMLA  (The Out House Gang ) anyway
> it was and is a great fun time.  My wife and I have attended
> every one since the beginning, it's a great way to get together
> with old friends and meet new ones.  Our main goal is to
> interest  new folks in the use of primitive firearms with safety
> stressed from the gitgo,  to Living History, Buckskinning,
> Long Hunters or what ever your cup of tea might be. It is also
> a part of our goal to "kick the hivernants" in the pants and
> rekindle their enthusiasm for our sport. We invite qualified
> instructors do classes (much like our Rocky Mountain College Rendezvous
> August 8-15) on subjects of their choice pertaining
> to their period of interest.  We simply say pre-1840, actually
> we have folks involved from the early 1750's thru the F&I to the
> Revolution  and on up through the America's involvement in Fur
> hunting and trading.  We also have a growing number of folks
> interested in as I choose to call it, The War of The Northern
> Invasion, even though this event began in 1860 they are also
> welcome.  We turn no one away from our door, we try to include
> and offer things of interest to all of the  Muzzle Loading
> Community, not just one facet of the sport.  Since we are
> attempting to interest new people in what we do, we are not
> "clothes police" we speak of  authenticity, but are not going
> to criticize or chastise any one who is trying, but hasn't quite
> done enough research to create the perfect outfit or persona.
> Shucks, I began playing this living history thing back in 1947
> and am still trying to get it right.  Some of us are just a bit
> slower than others. <<GAG>> We have a good traders room
> and attempt to showcase only period wares, however as in
> all things, something sometimes falls through a crack.  We also
> have a Banquet and awards ceremony Saturday evening, then
> for me the most fun, an auction of goods donated by traders
> or any one that has something neat pertaining to muzzle
> loading.  Items are from canvas goods, leather bags and such,
> Damascus knives, carved antler handled knives, trade silver,
> fire irons,  (we have several excellent blacksmiths in CSMLA)
> you name it, it will probably be on the auction block.  In 1999
> we have four class rooms with hourly selections for the learning
> experience. Everything from basic flint lock to a class I do
> on the etiquette of photography and camera use at rendezvous
> and living history events.  This year at 10:00 AM all class rooms
> will be closed so all that can will attend the Wildlife meeting.  It
> is critical that we have as much input from the members as
> possible so that a plan can be developed to hopefully preserve
> our Muzzle Loading Season.  One need not be a member to
> attend, but naturally the more members we can acquire the
> stronger our bargaining platform with the DOW will be.  Linda
> our Winter Convention is a fun thing, perhaps not as authentic
> as some would like, but we are trying cover a large block of
> time as best we can.  The Rocky Mountain College and the
> Winter Convention  was designed to be learning experiences
> for pilgrims, however it has grown into much more that.
> We also hold the associations business meeting and the
> election of new officers and board members at the Winter
> Con. It is my personal opinion based on reading your past
> posts that you might enjoy the Rocky Mountain College
> a bit more than the Winter Con.  The College runs for 8 days,
> and the Winter Con. for 2 days.  The RM College is not
> totally primitive, we try to acomodate as many folks as we
> can. We offer a Tin Tipi camp, Handicap camp, and long term
> primitive and short term primitive camps.  Since the event is
> held in Bayou Salado  a favorite hang out for Bridger, Carson,
> Beckwith and Jim Baker the flavor is definitely western
> Mountaineer or Mountain Man.  Didn't intend for this to turn
> into a book,  but if you need or want more information you
> may feel free to contact my wife or  myself.  Thank you for
> your interest.
>
> Respectfully,
> C Webb
> AKA Old Coyote
> CC CO
>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
> >> To: History Text <[e-mail]>
> >> Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 10:08 PM
> >> Subject: MtMan-List: Winter Convention
> >>
> >> >How many of us on this list will be at the CSMLRA Winter Convention
> >in
> >> >Denver in March?
> >> >
> >> >DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >
> >




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sidney Porter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Winter Convention
Date: 21 Feb 1999 15:36:56 -0800

Charlie,

Don't know that I'll be able to go, but when in March is the convention and
where is it held?  You have made me want to go.  It sounds interesting,
informative, and fun.

Sidney





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Web Searches
Date: 21 Feb 1999 17:21:17 EST

General Note to the List: When searching for items to buy on the web, try =
the
NEWEST way to search; using BOTS.  Find the "BOT" you want (books, for
instance) and let it search.  It will return a list of all the sites it fi=
nds
selling the book you are looking for, ALONG WITH THE PRICES CHARGED BY THA=
T
SELLER. This is an incredibly powerful tool for saving both time and money=
.
<A HREF=3D"http://botspot.com/search/index.html">BotSpot =AE : Search : Th=
e Spot
for all Bots & Intelligent Agents</A>    yhs, Barney Fife




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ron and Gayle Harris" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:bounty
Date: 21 Feb 1999 17:09:01 -0600

is that per pound?!!!
-----Original Message-----


>Ron,
> I figger he's worth $5. American....Mebby...
>D
>
>   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ron and Gayle Harris <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Thursday, February 18, 1999 9:20 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List:bounty
>
>
>>: Re: MtMan-List: bounty
>>
>>>Lanney,
>>> You are GOOD at one of a kind items from craftsmen, you are lucky there
>>>isn't a warning flyer out about you.. If you weren't so damned cuddly,
>>there
>>>would be a bounty on your ass...
>>>Love,
>>>D
>>>>
>>>GEEEZ, How vmuch bounty???
>>(per each or.............?)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:bounty
Date: 21 Feb 1999 19:52:07 -0500

Lord, Son.... Do you KNOW how much I would have to charge for knives if that
were the case??<G>

D

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


>is that per pound?!!!
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dennis Miles <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Thursday, February 18, 1999 10:05 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List:bounty
>
>
>>Ron,
>> I figger he's worth $5. American....Mebby...
>>D
>>
>>   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>>  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>>    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: terry l landis <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: new gun
Date: 21 Feb 1999 17:06:27 -0800

ho the list.
 i have a new gun with a colerian swamped barrel in .58 cal.
here's the problem, in trying to work up a load i found that the patches
I'm using a being torn up pretty bad sometimes. I'm loading a 570 rb with
a .20 patch and 70 gr.bp.
some of the balls i have are snugger than others and some of the patches
have been perforated at the edges ( you can see where the lands in the
barrel were).
could some of you trow out some options to correct this problem. i plan
to start to pour my own balls as soon as i can find a proper mould.
ant suggestions would be a great help.
thanks.
YMHS, Terry L Landis

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:bounty
Date: 21 Feb 1999 19:17:38 -0600

Ya'll ought to quit picking on little Lanney Rue.
Pendleton

----------
> From: Dennis Miles <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List:bounty
> Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 6:52 PM
>
> Lord, Son.... Do you KNOW how much I would have to charge for knives if
that
> were the case??<G>
>
> D
>
>    "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>   Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>     http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ron and Gayle Harris <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 6:27 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List:bounty
>
>
> >is that per pound?!!!
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Dennis Miles <[e-mail]>
> >To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> >Date: Thursday, February 18, 1999 10:05 PM
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List:bounty
> >
> >
> >>Ron,
> >> I figger he's worth $5. American....Mebby...
> >>D
> >>
> >>   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
> >>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
> >>  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
> >>    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sidney Porter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:bounty
Date: 21 Feb 1999 19:36:15 -0800

Larry,

Quit picking on him...Why?    Can you think of anyone who deserves it more?
Sidney





>Ya'll ought to quit picking on little Lanney Rue.
>Pendleton
>

>>
>> Lord, Son.... Do you KNOW how much I would have to charge for knives if
>that
>> were the case??<G>
>>
>> D


>>
>>
>> >is that per pound?!!!


>> >
>> >
>> >>Ron,
>> >> I figger he's worth $5. American....Mebby...
>> >>D


>>
>>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new gun
Date: 21 Feb 1999 19:38:17 -0600

Terry,
  Your probably on the right track in planning to pour your own balls.  I
started pouring my own sometime ago when I discovered the rd. balls that I
had been buying were not consistently round nor of the size they were
supposed to be.[ i.e. some were .528 to .525 when they were supposed to be
.530]  I shoot a Colerain C weight 54 Cal. barrel, and for sure, when
working up a load for any barrel with really deep rifling  if your rd.
balls are slightly undersized you'll have the exact problem you are
describing.  Keep in touch.  I'll be glad to help if I can.
Pendleton

----------
> From: terry l landis <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: MtMan-List: new gun
> Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 7:06 PM
>
> ho the list.
>  i have a new gun with a colerian swamped barrel in .58 cal.
> here's the problem, in trying to work up a load i found that the patches
> I'm using a being torn up pretty bad sometimes. I'm loading a 570 rb with
> a .20 patch and 70 gr.bp.
> some of the balls i have are snugger than others and some of the patches
> have been perforated at the edges ( you can see where the lands in the
> barrel were).
> could some of you trow out some options to correct this problem. i plan
> to start to pour my own balls as soon as i can find a proper mould.
> ant suggestions would be a great help.
> thanks.
> YMHS, Terry L Landis
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new gun
Date: 21 Feb 1999 20:53:18 -0500

terry l landis wrote:
>
> ho the list.
>  i have a new gun with a colerian swamped barrel in .58 cal.
> here's the problem, in trying to work up a load i found that the patches
> I'm using a being torn up pretty bad sometimes. I'm loading a 570 rb with
> a .20 patch and 70 gr.bp.
> some of the balls i have are snugger than others and some of the patches
> have been perforated at the edges ( you can see where the lands in the
> barrel were).
> could some of you trow out some options to correct this problem. i plan
> to start to pour my own balls as soon as i can find a proper mould.
> ant suggestions would be a great help.
> thanks.

Terry, the barrel needs to be shot in.  It make take 200+ ball to do that.  To
assist in this, however, you can wrap a jag with 0000 steel wool, and work the
barrel EVENLY from one end to the other.  This will help remove the sharp
edges.  Give it about 200 strokes with the steel wool.  Then, flush with water
and dry.  Follow this up with polishing with Never Dull (available from any good
hardware store), which will polish and clean the bore.  N.D. SHOULD be included
in your cleaning regime anyway.  I'd finish clean up with Ballistol, leaving a
wet coat in the bore.  Also, make sure you use pillow ticking patches and a GOOD
lube.

Fred

--
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
http://www.best.com/~capn/thunder/willy.htm




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:bounty
Date: 21 Feb 1999 21:02:17 -0500

Pendleton...
 Either join in, or we will shift our attention to you....<G>
Soooo...????
D

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


>Ya'll ought to quit picking on little Lanney Rue.
>Pendleton
>
>----------
>> From: Dennis Miles <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail]
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List:bounty
>> Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 6:52 PM
>>
>> Lord, Son.... Do you KNOW how much I would have to charge for knives if
>that
>> were the case??<G>
>>
>> D
>>
>>    "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>>   Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>>     http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ron and Gayle Harris <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 6:27 PM
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List:bounty
>>
>>
>> >is that per pound?!!!
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Dennis Miles <[e-mail]>
>> >To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> >Date: Thursday, February 18, 1999 10:05 PM
>> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List:bounty
>> >
>> >
>> >>Ron,
>> >> I figger he's worth $5. American....Mebby...
>> >>D
>> >>
>> >>   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>> >>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>> >>  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>> >>    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>>
>>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: linda lawyer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Winter Convention
Date: 21 Feb 1999 18:06:42 -0800 (PST)



I too have to return to work on the 4th. of August.  Many school
districts begin around the first of August. Could you consider moving
the date of the Rocky Mountain College up a little....maybe mid June
or late July.  Just a thought, Linda Lawyer


---Linda Holley <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the INFORMATION.  It definitely explained everything.  I
cannot
> go in the summer anymore because they have changed my job starting
to the
> 1st. of August.  But I am interested in the March doings.
>
>
> Linda
>
> "Charlie P. Webb" wrote:
>
> > Linda,
> > The Colorado State Muzzle Loading Associations Winter
> > Convention was born many years ago as a method of
> > treating "Cabin Fever".  Many of us Buckskinners,
> > Mountaineers, renactors and such needed a way to break
> > the daily monotony and doldrums of winter camp.  I don't
> > know who first came up with the idea of holding a Winter
> > Convention on a State level, could have been the original
> > founders of the CSMLA  (The Out House Gang ) anyway
> > it was and is a great fun time.  My wife and I have attended
> > every one since the beginning, it's a great way to get together
> > with old friends and meet new ones.  Our main goal is to
> > interest  new folks in the use of primitive firearms with safety
> > stressed from the gitgo,  to Living History, Buckskinning,
> > Long Hunters or what ever your cup of tea might be. It is also
> > a part of our goal to "kick the hivernants" in the pants and
> > rekindle their enthusiasm for our sport. We invite qualified
> > instructors do classes (much like our Rocky Mountain College
Rendezvous
> > August 8-15) on subjects of their choice pertaining
> > to their period of interest.  We simply say pre-1840, actually
> > we have folks involved from the early 1750's thru the F&I to the
> > Revolution  and on up through the America's involvement in Fur
> > hunting and trading.  We also have a growing number of folks
> > interested in as I choose to call it, The War of The Northern
> > Invasion, even though this event began in 1860 they are also
> > welcome.  We turn no one away from our door, we try to include
> > and offer things of interest to all of the  Muzzle Loading
> > Community, not just one facet of the sport.  Since we are
> > attempting to interest new people in what we do, we are not
> > "clothes police" we speak of  authenticity, but are not going
> > to criticize or chastise any one who is trying, but hasn't quite
> > done enough research to create the perfect outfit or persona.
> > Shucks, I began playing this living history thing back in 1947
> > and am still trying to get it right.  Some of us are just a bit
> > slower than others. <<GAG>> We have a good traders room
> > and attempt to showcase only period wares, however as in
> > all things, something sometimes falls through a crack.  We also
> > have a Banquet and awards ceremony Saturday evening, then
> > for me the most fun, an auction of goods donated by traders
> > or any one that has something neat pertaining to muzzle
> > loading.  Items are from canvas goods, leather bags and such,
> > Damascus knives, carved antler handled knives, trade silver,
> > fire irons,  (we have several excellent blacksmiths in CSMLA)
> > you name it, it will probably be on the auction block.  In 1999
> > we have four class rooms with hourly selections for the learning
> > experience. Everything from basic flint lock to a class I do
> > on the etiquette of photography and camera use at rendezvous
> > and living history events.  This year at 10:00 AM all class rooms
> > will be closed so all that can will attend the Wildlife meeting.  It
> > is critical that we have as much input from the members as
> > possible so that a plan can be developed to hopefully preserve
> > our Muzzle Loading Season.  One need not be a member to
> > attend, but naturally the more members we can acquire the
> > stronger our bargaining platform with the DOW will be.  Linda
> > our Winter Convention is a fun thing, perhaps not as authentic
> > as some would like, but we are trying cover a large block of
> > time as best we can.  The Rocky Mountain College and the
> > Winter Convention  was designed to be learning experiences
> > for pilgrims, however it has grown into much more that.
> > We also hold the associations business meeting and the
> > election of new officers and board members at the Winter
> > Con. It is my personal opinion based on reading your past
> > posts that you might enjoy the Rocky Mountain College
> > a bit more than the Winter Con.  The College runs for 8 days,
> > and the Winter Con. for 2 days.  The RM College is not
> > totally primitive, we try to acomodate as many folks as we
> > can. We offer a Tin Tipi camp, Handicap camp, and long term
> > primitive and short term primitive camps.  Since the event is
> > held in Bayou Salado  a favorite hang out for Bridger, Carson,
> > Beckwith and Jim Baker the flavor is definitely western
> > Mountaineer or Mountain Man.  Didn't intend for this to turn
> > into a book,  but if you need or want more information you
> > may feel free to contact my wife or  myself.  Thank you for
> > your interest.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> > C Webb
> > AKA Old Coyote
> > CC CO
> >
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
> > >> To: History Text <[e-mail]>
> > >> Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 10:08 PM
> > >> Subject: MtMan-List: Winter Convention
> > >>
> > >> >How many of us on this list will be at the CSMLRA Winter
Convention
> > >in
> > >> >Denver in March?
> > >> >
> > >> >DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>

==


Keith and Linda Lawyer
[e-mail]



_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Gum
Date: 21 Feb 1999 17:46:38 -0600

Angela,

I think you may be right about the mis-translation of paper.  I haven't seen
the original since 1979 and no longer have access to anything but the
translation in "Shepherd's Compleat..." as my French is on the scanty side=
 and
I only worked a little on the translation I can't say what the original word
was.  The listing did include some colloquialisms as I recall.  The belaying
pins originally translated as 2 priests.  It took some head scratching,
cogitating and querying of several well versed in the language to sort it
out.=20
It's nearly certain some error crept in.

I would like to see a drawing or picture of a York boat someday.  If you can
offer better information for the lead introduction Dean has posted I would
sure
appreciate it as I'm sure would he.  I have very little information about=
 what
they were. =20

The original was acquired by Stephen Shepherd who I haven't seen in years=
 and
who no longer pursues historic endeavors.  It may have been lost or=
 destroyed
with other prime references in an ugly divorce.  He acquired it while=
 working
at Connor Prairie in Indiana.

John...


At 09:35 AM 2/21/99 -0700, you wrote:
>The gum on the 1803 York boat list is almost certainly the pine=20
>pitch/charcoal mixture used for gumming canoes and, presumably, York boats.=
=20
>I very much doubt that it was wrapped in paper--I suspect that the term=20
>"parchment", meaning rawhide, has been mistranslated. Gum is frequently=20
>mentioned in English fur trade journals of this period. Gathering & making=
=20
>gum was frequently the job of fur traders' country wives.
>
> It is quite unusual that this York boat bill of lading was originally in=
=20
>French; York boats were used by the HBC, whose clerks were almost entirely=
=20
>English-speaking. York boats were significantly different from canoes in=20
>almost every way--materials, construction, navigation, portaging, and=20
>capacity being the most significant differences.=20
>
>In haste,
>Your humble & obedient servant,
>Angela Gottfred
>[e-mail]
>=20
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sidney Porter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Winter Convention
Date: 22 Feb 1999 03:05:14 -0800

As do I, and I've always wanted to come to Rockie Mt.  Linda has a
suggestion I hope you might consider.

Sidney





-----Original Message-----


>
>
>I too have to return to work on the 4th. of August.  Many school
>districts begin around the first of August. Could you consider moving
>the date of the Rocky Mountain College up a little....maybe mid June
>or late July.  Just a thought, Linda Lawyer
>
>
>---Linda Holley <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for the INFORMATION.  It definitely explained everything.  I
>cannot
>> go in the summer anymore because they have changed my job starting
>to the
>> 1st. of August.  But I am interested in the March doings.
>>
>>
>> Linda
>>
>> "Charlie P. Webb" wrote:
>>
>> > Linda,
>> > The Colorado State Muzzle Loading Associations Winter
>> > Convention was born many years ago as a method of
>> > treating "Cabin Fever".  Many of us Buckskinners,
>> > Mountaineers, renactors and such needed a way to break
>> > the daily monotony and doldrums of winter camp.  I don't
>> > know who first came up with the idea of holding a Winter
>> > Convention on a State level, could have been the original
>> > founders of the CSMLA  (The Out House Gang ) anyway
>> > it was and is a great fun time.  My wife and I have attended
>> > every one since the beginning, it's a great way to get together
>> > with old friends and meet new ones.  Our main goal is to
>> > interest  new folks in the use of primitive firearms with safety
>> > stressed from the gitgo,  to Living History, Buckskinning,
>> > Long Hunters or what ever your cup of tea might be. It is also
>> > a part of our goal to "kick the hivernants" in the pants and
>> > rekindle their enthusiasm for our sport. We invite qualified
>> > instructors do classes (much like our Rocky Mountain College
>Rendezvous
>> > August 8-15) on subjects of their choice pertaining
>> > to their period of interest.  We simply say pre-1840, actually
>> > we have folks involved from the early 1750's thru the F&I to the
>> > Revolution  and on up through the America's involvement in Fur
>> > hunting and trading.  We also have a growing number of folks
>> > interested in as I choose to call it, The War of The Northern
>> > Invasion, even though this event began in 1860 they are also
>> > welcome.  We turn no one away from our door, we try to include
>> > and offer things of interest to all of the  Muzzle Loading
>> > Community, not just one facet of the sport.  Since we are
>> > attempting to interest new people in what we do, we are not
>> > "clothes police" we speak of  authenticity, but are not going
>> > to criticize or chastise any one who is trying, but hasn't quite
>> > done enough research to create the perfect outfit or persona.
>> > Shucks, I began playing this living history thing back in 1947
>> > and am still trying to get it right.  Some of us are just a bit
>> > slower than others. <<GAG>> We have a good traders room
>> > and attempt to showcase only period wares, however as in
>> > all things, something sometimes falls through a crack.  We also
>> > have a Banquet and awards ceremony Saturday evening, then
>> > for me the most fun, an auction of goods donated by traders
>> > or any one that has something neat pertaining to muzzle
>> > loading.  Items are from canvas goods, leather bags and such,
>> > Damascus knives, carved antler handled knives, trade silver,
>> > fire irons,  (we have several excellent blacksmiths in CSMLA)
>> > you name it, it will probably be on the auction block.  In 1999
>> > we have four class rooms with hourly selections for the learning
>> > experience. Everything from basic flint lock to a class I do
>> > on the etiquette of photography and camera use at rendezvous
>> > and living history events.  This year at 10:00 AM all class rooms
>> > will be closed so all that can will attend the Wildlife meeting.  It
>> > is critical that we have as much input from the members as
>> > possible so that a plan can be developed to hopefully preserve
>> > our Muzzle Loading Season.  One need not be a member to
>> > attend, but naturally the more members we can acquire the
>> > stronger our bargaining platform with the DOW will be.  Linda
>> > our Winter Convention is a fun thing, perhaps not as authentic
>> > as some would like, but we are trying cover a large block of
>> > time as best we can.  The Rocky Mountain College and the
>> > Winter Convention  was designed to be learning experiences
>> > for pilgrims, however it has grown into much more that.
>> > We also hold the associations business meeting and the
>> > election of new officers and board members at the Winter
>> > Con. It is my personal opinion based on reading your past
>> > posts that you might enjoy the Rocky Mountain College
>> > a bit more than the Winter Con.  The College runs for 8 days,
>> > and the Winter Con. for 2 days.  The RM College is not
>> > totally primitive, we try to acomodate as many folks as we
>> > can. We offer a Tin Tipi camp, Handicap camp, and long term
>> > primitive and short term primitive camps.  Since the event is
>> > held in Bayou Salado  a favorite hang out for Bridger, Carson,
>> > Beckwith and Jim Baker the flavor is definitely western
>> > Mountaineer or Mountain Man.  Didn't intend for this to turn
>> > into a book,  but if you need or want more information you
>> > may feel free to contact my wife or  myself.  Thank you for
>> > your interest.
>> >
>> > Respectfully,
>> > C Webb
>> > AKA Old Coyote
>> > CC CO
>> >
>> > >> -----Original Message-----
>> > >> From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
>> > >> To: History Text <[e-mail]>
>> > >> Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 10:08 PM
>> > >> Subject: MtMan-List: Winter Convention
>> > >>
>> > >> >How many of us on this list will be at the CSMLRA Winter
>Convention
>> > >in
>> > >> >Denver in March?
>> > >> >
>> > >> >DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >
>> > >
>>
>>
>>
>
>==
>
>
>Keith and Linda Lawyer
>[e-mail]
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Gum
Date: 22 Feb 1999 09:22:20 -0800



John Kramer wrote:

>
> I would like to see a drawing or picture of a York boat someday.  If you can
> offer better information for the lead introduction Dean has posted I would
> sure
> appreciate it as I'm sure would he.  I have very little information about what
> they were.

John,

Seeing your interest in York boats, I thumbed back through my issues of "Tomahawk
and Long rifle" (AMM  Publication) To Vol. 22,#3 summer of 1997 issue which
contains a nice article by my friend Leonard Conely. His article "Bateau in the
Fur Trade' has some good information on what he found were the types of boats used
in the western regions of the fur trade where birch bark was not available for the
making of larger freighting canoes/boats. Leonard has included a page of boat
drawings that show to fair effect the type an basic construction of these western
boats or bateau's.

Though there is not a picture of a 'York Boat', he does show the Mackinaw boat of
the Missouri River Trade, the Columbia River Bateau, and a rough plan of a small
cargo or Military type Bateau. He also has included a sketch of a Maine River
Driving Bateau which was pictured/featured in Muzzle Blasts a few years ago as
representative of the types of large boats used but which he believes from a
practical sense would only be used to move logs down stream and not for cargo.

Not being absolutely positive what a York Boat looks like myself ( I have seen
sketches but it's been a while) I seem to recall that it looked much like the
Mackinaw Boat or the Columbia River Bateau. Most if not all these types of small
boats (from around 15' up to a few 60 footers) all seem to share the basic design
characteristics of the Dory. The generally have a flat bottom and pointed ends
though some have rounded sides most were built with straight, though flared sides.
Another good book to look at is John Gardners "The Dory Book". There are quit a
few plans in this book of early types of bateau's and dories and the basic
important points of construction are dealt with quit well. I built the 19' heavy
Bateau from this book a couple years ago and use it on our float-in treks up here
in the Pacific North West. It is quit handy, very fast, will handle a small amount
of sail, can be rowed or paddled and has a large load capacity for it's size. I
would have made it a bit wider if I had thought of it in time. It was relatively
easy to build for a first boat. Just like most of these early boats, mine is flat
bottomed with a small amount of rocker, flared sides and fairly sharp shear
water/rake to the bow and stern. I have rigged it with thole pins to trap oars and
a drop on rudder to aid steering with oars or sail. I use lee boards instead of a
center board and have a removable mast partner located between the gunwales over a
fixed mast step quit far up forward.

Last spring it sailed up river on the Palouse R. from the mouth just off the Snake
to our camp site with my wife and a buddy and our basic trekking gear with no
problems. I rowed it out against a very vicious head wind (25+ knots) with John in
the stern manning the rudder and the wife in the bow to hold it down. We shipped
no water and though the going was slow, (slower than you could walk due to the
wind velocity) it handled as well or better than freight canoes with four to six
paddlers.

You may already be aware of the information I've shared above but hope that those
who go out on treks in modern canoes will consider actively pursuing converting to
wooden boats. They add immeasurably to the enjoyment  of such ventures and are
well within the skills of anyone who can put together a rifle. Fair winds to you,
I remain.......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:bounty
Date: 22 Feb 1999 18:34:07 -0600

I ain't sceered !
Pendleton

----------
> From: Dennis Miles <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List:bounty
> Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 8:02 PM
>
> Pendleton...
>  Either join in, or we will shift our attention to you....<G>
> Soooo...????
> D
>
>    "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>   Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>     http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
> -----Original Message-----
> From: larry pendleton <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 8:37 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List:bounty
>
>
> >Ya'll ought to quit picking on little Lanney Rue.
> >Pendleton
> >
> >----------
> >> From: Dennis Miles <[e-mail]>
> >> To: [e-mail]
> >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List:bounty
> >> Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 6:52 PM
> >>
> >> Lord, Son.... Do you KNOW how much I would have to charge for knives
if
> >that
> >> were the case??<G>
> >>
> >> D
> >>
> >>    "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
> >>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
> >>   Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
> >>     http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Ron and Gayle Harris <[e-mail]>
> >> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> >> Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 6:27 PM
> >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List:bounty
> >>
> >>
> >> >is that per pound?!!!
> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >From: Dennis Miles <[e-mail]>
> >> >To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> >> >Date: Thursday, February 18, 1999 10:05 PM
> >> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List:bounty
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>Ron,
> >> >> I figger he's worth $5. American....Mebby...
> >> >>D
> >> >>
> >> >>   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
> >> >>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
> >> >>  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
> >> >>    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
> >>
> >>
> >
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:bounty
Date: 22 Feb 1999 20:55:37 -0500

Be afeared my  friend.. Be veery afeared....<G>
D

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


>I ain't sceered !
>Pendleton
>
>----------
>> From: Dennis Miles <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail]
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List:bounty
>> Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 8:02 PM
>>
>> Pendleton...
>>  Either join in, or we will shift our attention to you....<G>
>> Soooo...????
>> D
>>
>>    "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>>   Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>>     http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: larry pendleton <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 8:37 PM
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List:bounty
>>
>>
>> >Ya'll ought to quit picking on little Lanney Rue.
>> >Pendleton
>> >
>> >----------
>> >> From: Dennis Miles <[e-mail]>
>> >> To: [e-mail]
>> >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List:bounty
>> >> Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 6:52 PM
>> >>
>> >> Lord, Son.... Do you KNOW how much I would have to charge for knives
>if
>> >that
>> >> were the case??<G>
>> >>
>> >> D
>> >>
>> >>    "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>> >>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>> >>   Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>> >>     http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Ron and Gayle Harris <[e-mail]>
>> >> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> >> Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 6:27 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List:bounty
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >is that per pound?!!!
>> >> >-----Original Message-----
>> >> >From: Dennis Miles <[e-mail]>
>> >> >To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> >> >Date: Thursday, February 18, 1999 10:05 PM
>> >> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List:bounty
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >>Ron,
>> >> >> I figger he's worth $5. American....Mebby...
>> >> >>D
>> >> >>
>> >> >>   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>> >> >>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>> >> >>  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>> >> >>    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Michael Pierce <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new gun
Date: 23 Feb 1999 00:59:01 -0500

terry you have to get consistant---the new barrel needs a .575 round ball
and a .o17 patch--get it from sears and wash it 3 or 4 times before you
shoot it---tear it into strips about 5 to 6 lines wide---also get out the
scower bright and run it down the bore a couple of times with wd-40 on it
to take out the burrs---sounds like it's cutting patches--them colerans
are good shooters but have extremely sharp rifleings and sometimes you
have to take off the burs---give me a hoot and we can discuss it more if
you have any further problems---remember ---good barrel---sharp
riflings--may have to smooth them out a bit---

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Charlie P. Webb" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Winter Convention
Date: 22 Feb 1999 09:20:35 -0700

Linda,
I am sorry to say that it is highly unlikely that we the (CSMLA)
can or will be able to change the RMC dates.  What we try to
do is select dates that are not in conflict with other events,
National's etc.  Here in Colorado there is a rendezvous or shoot
going on every weekend from Memorial Day to Labor Day the
dates we have selected do not conflict with any other event being
held within the State.  Some of the clubs in colorado, like the
C Springs M.L. Inc.  and the Bell's Fort club in Pueblo, Co. have
held their events on the same dates for better than 25 years.
     I will voice your concerns and comments at out next
meeting of the board, perhaps we can find a way to acomodate.
I will give it my best shot!

Respectfully,
C Webb
CC CO.


On Sun, 21 Feb 1999 18:06:42 -0800 (PST) linda lawyer
<[e-mail]> writes:
>
>
>I too have to return to work on the 4th. of August.  Many school
>districts begin around the first of August. Could you consider moving
>the date of the Rocky Mountain College up a little....maybe mid June
>or late July.  Just a thought, Linda Lawyer
>
>
>---Linda Holley <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for the INFORMATION.  It definitely explained everything.  I
>cannot
>> go in the summer anymore because they have changed my job starting
>to the
>> 1st. of August.  But I am interested in the March doings.
>>
>>
>> Linda
>>
>> "Charlie P. Webb" wrote:
>>
>> > Linda,
>> > The Colorado State Muzzle Loading Associations Winter
>> > Convention was born many years ago as a method of
>> > treating "Cabin Fever".  Many of us Buckskinners,
>> > Mountaineers, renactors and such needed a way to break
>> > the daily monotony and doldrums of winter camp.  I don't
>> > know who first came up with the idea of holding a Winter
>> > Convention on a State level, could have been the original
>> > founders of the CSMLA  (The Out House Gang ) anyway
>> > it was and is a great fun time.  My wife and I have attended
>> > every one since the beginning, it's a great way to get together
>> > with old friends and meet new ones.  Our main goal is to
>> > interest  new folks in the use of primitive firearms with safety
>> > stressed from the gitgo,  to Living History, Buckskinning,
>> > Long Hunters or what ever your cup of tea might be. It is also
>> > a part of our goal to "kick the hivernants" in the pants and
>> > rekindle their enthusiasm for our sport. We invite qualified
>> > instructors do classes (much like our Rocky Mountain College
>Rendezvous
>> > August 8-15) on subjects of their choice pertaining
>> > to their period of interest.  We simply say pre-1840, actually
>> > we have folks involved from the early 1750's thru the F&I to the
>> > Revolution  and on up through the America's involvement in Fur
>> > hunting and trading.  We also have a growing number of folks
>> > interested in as I choose to call it, The War of The Northern
>> > Invasion, even though this event began in 1860 they are also
>> > welcome.  We turn no one away from our door, we try to include
>> > and offer things of interest to all of the  Muzzle Loading
>> > Community, not just one facet of the sport.  Since we are
>> > attempting to interest new people in what we do, we are not
>> > "clothes police" we speak of  authenticity, but are not going
>> > to criticize or chastise any one who is trying, but hasn't quite
>> > done enough research to create the perfect outfit or persona.
>> > Shucks, I began playing this living history thing back in 1947
>> > and am still trying to get it right.  Some of us are just a bit
>> > slower than others. <<GAG>> We have a good traders room
>> > and attempt to showcase only period wares, however as in
>> > all things, something sometimes falls through a crack.  We also
>> > have a Banquet and awards ceremony Saturday evening, then
>> > for me the most fun, an auction of goods donated by traders
>> > or any one that has something neat pertaining to muzzle
>> > loading.  Items are from canvas goods, leather bags and such,
>> > Damascus knives, carved antler handled knives, trade silver,
>> > fire irons,  (we have several excellent blacksmiths in CSMLA)
>> > you name it, it will probably be on the auction block.  In 1999
>> > we have four class rooms with hourly selections for the learning
>> > experience. Everything from basic flint lock to a class I do
>> > on the etiquette of photography and camera use at rendezvous
>> > and living history events.  This year at 10:00 AM all class rooms
>> > will be closed so all that can will attend the Wildlife meeting.
>It
>> > is critical that we have as much input from the members as
>> > possible so that a plan can be developed to hopefully preserve
>> > our Muzzle Loading Season.  One need not be a member to
>> > attend, but naturally the more members we can acquire the
>> > stronger our bargaining platform with the DOW will be.  Linda
>> > our Winter Convention is a fun thing, perhaps not as authentic
>> > as some would like, but we are trying cover a large block of
>> > time as best we can.  The Rocky Mountain College and the
>> > Winter Convention  was designed to be learning experiences
>> > for pilgrims, however it has grown into much more that.
>> > We also hold the associations business meeting and the
>> > election of new officers and board members at the Winter
>> > Con. It is my personal opinion based on reading your past
>> > posts that you might enjoy the Rocky Mountain College
>> > a bit more than the Winter Con.  The College runs for 8 days,
>> > and the Winter Con. for 2 days.  The RM College is not
>> > totally primitive, we try to acomodate as many folks as we
>> > can. We offer a Tin Tipi camp, Handicap camp, and long term
>> > primitive and short term primitive camps.  Since the event is
>> > held in Bayou Salado  a favorite hang out for Bridger, Carson,
>> > Beckwith and Jim Baker the flavor is definitely western
>> > Mountaineer or Mountain Man.  Didn't intend for this to turn
>> > into a book,  but if you need or want more information you
>> > may feel free to contact my wife or  myself.  Thank you for
>> > your interest.
>> >
>> > Respectfully,
>> > C Webb
>> > AKA Old Coyote
>> > CC CO
>> >
>> > >> -----Original Message-----
>> > >> From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
>> > >> To: History Text <[e-mail]>
>> > >> Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 10:08 PM
>> > >> Subject: MtMan-List: Winter Convention
>> > >>
>> > >> >How many of us on this list will be at the CSMLRA Winter
>Convention
>> > >in
>> > >> >Denver in March?
>> > >> >
>> > >> >DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >
>> > >
>>
>>
>>
>
>==
>
>
>Keith and Linda Lawyer
>[e-mail]
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Charlie P. Webb" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Winter Convention
Date: 22 Feb 1999 07:48:06 -0700

Sidney,
Sorry for leaving the dates out, I had included them in an
earlier post but will do so again. Colorado State Muzzle Loading
Association's "Winter Convention"  March 6 and 7  1999 at
the Radisson Hotel, Greystone Castle I-25 and 120th Ave.
Thorton Colorado  1-800 422-7699 (8 AM to 6PM)

Respectfully,
C Webb
CC CO.


On Sun, 21 Feb 1999 15:36:56 -0800 "Sidney Porter" <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Charlie,
>
>Don't know that I'll be able to go, but when in March is the
>convention and
>where is it held?  You have made me want to go.  It sounds
>interesting,
>informative, and fun.
>
>Sidney
>
>
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Antonio Didonato <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: fort buonaventura
Date: 22 Feb 1999 07:56:17 -0700

Hi,

Do you, by any chance, have any information on any link related to the fort
buonaventura in Ogden, Utah? I Am interested in the mountain men
rendezvous's schedule and activities.  I would immensely appreciate it if
you would forward any information to me that would lead me to that goal.

with gratitude, best regards.

Antonio.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dennis Fisher <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new gun
Date: 22 Feb 1999 21:24:29 -0800

terry l landis wrote:

> ho the list.
>  i have a new gun with a colerian swamped barrel in .58 cal.
> here's the problem, in trying to work up a load i found that the patches
> I'm using a being torn up pretty bad sometimes.

I would recommend unbreaching your rifle and slugging the barrel to find out
the exact caliber.  Take one of your .58 caliber balls,  flatten it slightly
with a hammer, then take a wooden mallet and hammer it into the muzzle.  It
only has to be wide enough to fill the grooves. Use your ramrod to push it
through the barrel and out the breach.  Then mic the slug to find your land
and groove diameter.  The land diameter is the most critical.  Also remember
that the patching wraps all around the bullet so a .0015" patch takes up
.0030" of the available diameter.  You can take two thicknesses of patching
and squeeze them between the jaws of a vernier caliper to get a pretty good
idea of how much the patch will compress.  So the compressed thickness of the
patches plus the ball diameter should be pretty close to the land diameter.
Since you want the ball to fit snug but not too snug there is always some
trial and error involved but you have to start somewhere.  I started with a
.558, then tried a .560, and finally ended up with a .562 ball.  As for the
patches, I do all my tests with spit patches.  If it don't work right with a
spit patch it isn't right (in my opinion).  The proper powder charge, ball
diameter, patch material, patch thickness, and choice of patch lubricant will
take a little while to work out but the patches will tell you how you are
doing.  I shoot a .58 myself and use .0015" pillow ticking.  Wash it first to
get all the sizing out of it (the pillow ticking not the rifle).  Buy a
couple of yards and run it through the washing machine then dry it like any
other cotton material.  I tear it by hand into 2" wide strips a couple of
feet long.  When everything is working right your patches will have a nice
tan color in the center and the rifling marks will be distinct and tan also.
The patches will look good enough to reuse.  The rest of the patch will
retain it's pillow ticking color and look.  If the powder charge is correct,
I like 2F,  you will see some red streaks of sulper at the muzzle (assuming
you're using real black powder).   Starting out around 70 grains should be
good and work your way up.  You want to be checking accurracy while you're
doing all this too.  I got my .58 from Walt McCurdy, back in 1976 and
wouldn't trade it for anything.  It took me the better part of a summer to
get it turned.  One other thing, I mentioned that patch lube can make a
difference.  I tried several commerical lubes with no real success, bear oil,
and a home brew of parafin, lard, and bee's wax.  The home brew and spit
patches worked best.  Just switching lubes can mean the difference between a
beautifully formed patch and a twisted, smoking, burnt rag.  That is why I
say to work with spit patches until you get everything working.  Then if you
want to experiment with other lubes, especially for cold weather when spit
won't work, you have a basis to compare them with.

                Dennis



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: trade goods
Date: 22 Feb 1999 08:03:56 EST

I need help fast!  I'm putting together an educational unit on beavers and the
furtrade.  I need get some idea of what trade goods for worth.  For example:
how many pounds of coffee, flour, or sugar could you get for a beaver pelt?
How many beaver pelts would it take to puchase a blanket, rifle, or hatchet?
Any help would be greatlly appreciated.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: rendezvous
Date: 23 Feb 1999 21:17:39 -0700

>Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:31:00 -0600
>From: mike perry <[e-mail]>
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win16; I)
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: rendezvous
>
>Don't know how far most folks are willing to travel but the Easter
>weekend rendezvous will once again be at Fort Buenaventura in Ogden
>Utah.
>Let me know if you are interested.
>
>Mike Perry
>[e-mail]
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fort buonaventura
Date: 24 Feb 1999 09:23:02 EST

Here is the contact information for the Fort.  Maybe they can help.

Ft. Buenaventura State Park
2450 A Avenue
Ogden, Utah 84401-2203
[phone]

Burned Belly



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: York boat bill of lading (was: Gum)
Date: 24 Feb 1999 10:33:09 -0700

Curioser and curioser! The more that I thought about it, the stranger this
bill of lading (on Rudy's web site, www.xmission.com/~drudy) seemed. The
introduction said it was a pre-printed form for a York boat, in French, for
1803. However, the term "York boat" was not used until the late 1800's;
before that time, they were called "inland boats". Secondly, the HBC was the
only company to use York boats. They hired boat builders from the Orkney
Islands who built the first York boats for them at Edmonton House in 1795.
They were used along with canoes until George Simpson urged their
wholehearted adoption in 1821, along with construction of the system of
trails and portage routes needed to support them. (More about this in a
moment.) The North West Company used canoes and bateaux, which they
sometimes called Red River boats.

The business language of the HBC was English. This makes it exceedingly odd
that a York boat bill of lading would be pre-printed in French, for the
English-speaking HBC. On the other hand, the NWC used pre-printed forms, in
French, for their canoe bills of lading. The daily language of the NWC was
French (most NWC clerks spoke French and English, as well as Native
languages for trading purposes). I pulled a NWC canoe bill of lading from my
files (from Leslie F. Hannon's _Redcoats & Loyalists_, p. 82), and to my
surprise (after translation), it was almost identical to the one on Rudy's
web site. Every single item on the NWC bill of lading (for a canoe leaving
the Montreal area in 1802) was the same as the "York boat" bill of lading.
Furthermore, one of the items on the York boat bill of lading should _not_
be there. Bundles of spruce roots are vital to repairing canoes. They are
totally useless on a York boat.

There were no items on one list that were not on the other. I'm confident
that this bill of lading has been mis-identified. It is not for a York boat,
but for a NWC canoe. Since I've spent some time studying and translating the
canoe bill of lading, I can comment on a few of the items on it.

English Translation=Original French=Comments
"Carotes Tobacco"="Tabac en carotes"=Tobacco in carrots, i.e. leaf tobacco
in a carrot-shaped bundle
"Pots"="Chaudieres"=kettles
"Brass Pots"="Chaudieres de cuivre"=copper kettles (brass is 'cuivre jaune'
or 'laiton')
"White Iron (tinned) pots"="Chaudieres de fer blanc"=tin kettles
"Pork"="Lard"=salt pork
"Large Barrels of Mixed"="Maccarons Mele"=large barrels of high wines mixed
with water, ready to drink
"Milled India Wheat"="Ble d'Inde d'1 1/2 minot"=milled? Indian corn
"200 lb. Paper wrapped packages Pork"="200 livres de Lard"=200 pounds salt pork
"Sail canvas"="voile"=sail
"12 lb. Paper wrapped packages of Gum"="12 a 18 livres de Gomme"=12 to 18
pounds Gum

Now, on to the second question: What is the difference between a canoe, a
York boat, and a bateau?

Canoes: made of birch bark sewed with spruce roots onto a frame of white oak
or cedar. Seams pitched with gum made from pitch & charcoal. Pointy both
ends, flat bottom. Takes 1-2 men to portage, depending on the size of the
canoe. Must be unloaded before it can be drawn ashore. Cargo capacity: 1-2
tons, depending on size. Crew: 4-8 skilled voyageurs.
Bateaux: Flat bottom, pointy both ends. Made from boards nailed together.
York boat: Keeled, pointy both ends. Made from boards nailed together. Takes
a whole bunch of guys to portage it; must be pulled over rollers on
especially wide portage trails. Cargo capacity:  LOTS more than a canoe.
Crew: 6-8 relatively unskilled men, with the exception of the man on the
stern sweep/rudder.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred


John Kramer <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>Angela,

I think you may be right about the mis-translation of paper.  I haven't seen
the original since 1979 and no longer have access to anything but the
translation in "Shepherd's Compleat..." as my French is on the scanty side=
 and
I only worked a little on the translation I can't say what the original word
was.  The listing did include some colloquialisms as I recall.  The belaying
pins originally translated as 2 priests.  It took some head scratching,
cogitating and querying of several well versed in the language to sort it
out.=20
It's nearly certain some error crept in.

I would like to see a drawing or picture of a York boat someday.  If you can
offer better information for the lead introduction Dean has posted I would
sure
appreciate it as I'm sure would he.  I have very little information about=
 what
they were. =20

The original was acquired by Stephen Shepherd who I haven't seen in years=
 and
who no longer pursues historic endeavors.  It may have been lost or=
 destroyed
with other prime references in an ugly divorce.  He acquired it while=
 working
at Connor Prairie in Indiana.
<<
[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mike Rock" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #245
Date: 24 Feb 1999 12:05:59 -0600

York Boats, as a topic in the Mariners Museum, with or without associations
to the fur trade, are not to be found.  Can any more names be suggested?
The address is www.mariner.org/.  Great place.  Look in the library.  The
Hudson's Bay Company has fifteen great references.  I tried many
combinations for the York Boat including naval architecture, and was
stumped.

Rock




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sidney Porter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Winter Convention
Date: 24 Feb 1999 18:43:12 -0800

Charlie,

Thanks for the information.  Goodness, that's just a week away.  I don't
think I can get away from work on that little notice.  *sigh*  It sounds
like a great event.  Maybe next year!

Sidney





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: York boat bill of lading (was: Gum)
Date: 24 Feb 1999 20:42:18 -0800



Angela Gottfred wrote:

> Curioser and curioser! The more that I thought about it, the stranger this
> bill of lading (on Rudy's web site, www.xmission.com/~drudy) seemed. The
> introduction said it was a pre-printed form for a York boat, in French, for
> 1803. However, the term "York boat" was not used until the late 1800's;
> before that time, they were called "inland boats".

John Kramer,

Perhaps Angela has read the same material that I found compiled in an article in
"Wooden Boat Magazine" #144, Sept./Oct. 1998 that deals with "York Boats", their
history and construction. I knew I had seen a picture of these boats some where and
that is where I saw it.

The article includes, besides some good history of the boats, several old photos
including a partial photo of the last one ever built by HBC which was found at
Norway House. On page 55 and the following pages are some drawings of the
dimensions and even the sail plan for these boats. A brave hearted wood butcher
could make a York Boat from these sketches.

Angela mentioned that the term York Boat wasn't used until the latter part of the
19th Century and that seems to be true. The article does put it a bit differently.
The author, D.F. Johnson says on page 51, "Later, after the Northwest Company was
absorbed by the Hudson's Bay Company in 1821, freight canoes were replaced by
wooden boats throughout most of the trading area, although light weight "express
canoes" were retained for exploration, mail delivery, and executive transport.
Eventually these wooden boats became known as "York Boats", after the name of
company headquarters at York Factory." The author goes on to point out that
starting in about 1745 and continuing for the next 70 years the "Company" hired
boatwrights and carpenters to build a variety of inland boats. The York Boat seems
to be the distillation of all that effort and became the final "state of the art"
version that was used into the 1920's.

This article is quit informative and I encourage you to look it up. If I can figure
out how to do it and you can figure out how to down load my attachment I would be
happy to scan a page or two for you, John.

Thank you again Angela, for coming through with so much great information. I
remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver Hat Styles
Date: 25 Feb 1999 15:41:40 EST

Howdy all,


        Does anyone know of a site on the net that shows some of the many stlyes of
mens hats that were popular in the 17th and 18th centuries? Barring that, can
anyone suggest any book titles which show these styles. I know an the Museum
of the Mountain Man in Pinedale Wyoming they have a nice large graphic that
shows about ten stlyes with their names ie, Beau Brummel etc.
          When doing educational presentations, I'd like to speak a little
more intelligently about the hats that used so many beaver.
           Any help would be appreciated.

Happy trails

Todd Glover



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Hat Styles
Date: 25 Feb 1999 14:17:20 -0700 (MST)

Hey Todd,

Get ahold of a January 99 Muzzleblasts. Has a good article on hatmaking

Vic

>Howdy all,
>
>
>        Does anyone know of a site on the net that shows some of
>the many stlyes of
>mens hats that were popular in the 17th and 18th centuries? Barring that, can
>anyone suggest any book titles which show these styles. I know an the Museum
>of the Mountain Man in Pinedale Wyoming they have a nice large graphic that
>shows about ten stlyes with their names ie, Beau Brummel etc.
>          When doing educational presentations, I'd like to speak a little
>more intelligently about the hats that used so many beaver.
>           Any help would be appreciated.
>
>Happy trails
>
>Todd Glover


Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin

AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party
"Aux aliments du pays!"

Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona
Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "McKee" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Hat Styles
Date: 25 Feb 1999 15:21:41 -0600

besides the ever popular top hat, beaver was also used as trim on ladies
dresses and for hand muffs.
-----Original Message-----


>Howdy all,
>
>
> Does anyone know of a site on the net that shows some of the many stlyes
of
>mens hats that were popular in the 17th and 18th centuries? Barring that,
can
>anyone suggest any book titles which show these styles. I know an the
Museum
>of the Mountain Man in Pinedale Wyoming they have a nice large graphic that
>shows about ten stlyes with their names ie, Beau Brummel etc.
>          When doing educational presentations, I'd like to speak a little
>more intelligently about the hats that used so many beaver.
>           Any help would be appreciated.
>
>Happy trails
>
>Todd Glover
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Hat Styles
Date: 25 Feb 1999 16:15:36 -0800

YUP!  http://clearwaterhats.com/  They're the best!

Medicine Bear

[e-mail] wrote:

> Howdy all,
>
>                 Does anyone know of a site on the net that shows some of the many stlyes of
> mens hats that were popular in the 17th and 18th centuries? Barring that, can
> anyone suggest any book titles which show these styles. I know an the Museum
> of the Mountain Man in Pinedale Wyoming they have a nice large graphic that
> shows about ten stlyes with their names ie, Beau Brummel etc.
>           When doing educational presentations, I'd like to speak a little
> more intelligently about the hats that used so many beaver.
>            Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Happy trails
>
> Todd Glover




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: http://hatcrafters.com/Contact.htm
Date: 25 Feb 1999 17:07:44 -0800

Todd try this page they have a lot of Hats.  Later Jon T



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: http://hatcrafters.com/Contact.htm
Date: 25 Feb 1999 20:47:31 EST

Jon,


Thanks! That was exactly what I was looking for. Can't believe all the hat
styles, WOW!  Everyone should check out this site.
<A HREF="http://hatcrafters.com/index.html">Hatcrafters Home Page</A>

Todd



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Miller <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver Hats Where?http://hatcrafters.com/Contact.htm
Date: 25 Feb 1999 20:48:12 +0000

I think the list was misinformed I didn't see anything about beaver hats
at
hatcrafters.com/index.html.

What gives?
Joe

--
Join the ABOUT COLORADO Discussion List--
mailto:[e-mail] SUBJECT= Subscribe
--
Joseph Miller, Webmaster
http://www.Colorado-Mall.com
For information on leasing mall space
mailto:[e-mail]
To be Happy, Joyous and Free
Friends of Bill W. and Dr. Bob, Welcome!



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Hats Where?http://hatcrafters.com/Contact.htm
Date: 25 Feb 1999 20:53:29 -0800

Where did you get Beaver hats out of " they have a lots hats" I said
nothing about Beaver hats.
They have a lot price like Beaver Hats.
----------
: From: Joseph Miller <[e-mail]>
: To: [e-mail]
: Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver Hats Where?http://hatcrafters.com/Contact.htm
: Date: Thursday, February 25, 1999 12:48 PM
:
: I think the list was misinformed I didn't see anything about beaver hats
: at
: hatcrafters.com/index.html.
:
: What gives?
: Joe
:
: --
: Join the ABOUT COLORADO Discussion List--
: mailto:[e-mail] SUBJECT= Subscribe
: --
: Joseph Miller, Webmaster
: http://www.Colorado-Mall.com
: For information on leasing mall space
: mailto:[e-mail]
: To be Happy, Joyous and Free
: Friends of Bill W. and Dr. Bob, Welcome!
:



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: york boats
Date: 26 Feb 1999 08:57:12 +0100

This may have been posted already, but there is an article
on "York Boats", with photos, in The Beaver magazine, March,
1949, pp. 19-21.
Also, when I was at Fort Garry outside Winnipeg a few years
back (a great place to visit) they had an original York Boat
on display.
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Hats Where?
Date: 26 Feb 1999 16:04:27 EST

Joe,

I didn't exactly ask where I might get a beaver hat, I was just looking for a
place that illustrated STYLES of hats from the period so that I might show
people what kinds of hats where made from the  untold thousands of beaver that
were harvested by the Mountaineers. The web site that Jon suggested was right
on the money for what I was looking for. And thank you Vic for the suggestion
also.

Todd Glover



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: York boat bill of lading
Date: 27 Feb 1999 15:26:08 -0700

I'm no expert on York boats; what I know I've just picked up in passing. To
read about the origin of York boats, I recommend the introduction to
_Saskatchewan Journals_ by Alice M. Johnson (Hudson's Bay Record Society,
1962?).   Lower Fort Garry (Selkirk Manitoba, 30 km north of Winnipeg) and
Heritage Park (Calgary) have original York boats on display. Fort Edmonton
Park (Edmonton) has a reproduction York boat, which they used to travel from
Rocky Mountain House National Historic Site to Fort Edmonton Park, to
commemorate the 1795 establishment of Edmonton House. Vol. VII of Northwest
Journal featured the journal of one of the participants in this reenactment.
Fort Edmonton Park's York boat reproduction is old & in need of replacement;
they are currently soliciting donations for this project.

Fort Edmonton Park has a web site with an excellent introduction to the
c.1846 fur trade of the HBC; it includes a short section on York boats.
Check out: www.gov.edmonton.ab.ca/parkrec/fort/tocs/1846-toc.html

Norway House Cree Nation (Norway House, Manitoba) features York boat races
every summer. I'd love to go & watch some summer--it sounds pretty exciting.
Check it out at: www.norwayhouse.mb.ca/yorkboat/index.html

And the next issue of Northwest Journal will feature a well-researched
article on the early (c.1795-1820) history of the York boat by Thomas Swan.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
Editor, Northwest Journal


[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Douglas  Hepner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: blanket hat/hood
Date: 28 Feb 1999 20:34:06 -0600

    Does anyone have a pattern or instructions or anything that would be
useful in the construction of a blanket hat/hood as seen in the A.J. Miller
painting and sketches?
Thanks for any help.

YMOS
"Dull Hawk"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: blanket hat/hood
Date: 28 Feb 1999 21:55:49 EST

I made one many years back using the mountain man sketchbook don't know which
one as there out on loan probably never to be returned   ... mic