ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/hist_text/archive/hist_text.199901

Internet Message Format | 1999-01-31 | 701KB

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jersey, Geurnsey?
Date: 31 Dec 1999 23:50:17 -0800



Jeff wrote:

> For a pilgrim,sure. But it would last only about a year,then what? I
> haven't
> seen knitted goods in the trade inventories and natives DID NOT knit,so for
> a hivernant,I would say other than possibly a tuque(voyageurs cap) I doubt
> that knit sweaters,etc. were common.
>
> Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well

Jeff,

I imagine your Hiverano would take his pelts to the annual rendezvous and trade
for a new Jersey sweater or three like everyone else since there were such
items sent to be traded along with the beads, bells, and other baubles brought
in by the trading partners. And of course as others have pointed out some
native peoples DID KNIT.

Whether they were a common item is hard to say since there are few if any
references to individuals wearing them. But if they were taken, they were
traded or would not be taken again. Of course there is a lot of speculation as
to what they looked like but to say they weren't common is a stretch. There are
some intriguing first person sketches showing what appear to be Jersey sweaters
being worn by experienced trappers. Lost of food for serious thought here and I
remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>
>






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Duncan Macready" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jersey, Geurnsey?
Date: 01 Jan 1999 21:15:12 +1300



>Jeff wrote:
>
>> For a pilgrim,sure. But it would last only about a year,then what? I
>> haven't
>> seen knitted goods in the trade inventories and natives DID NOT knit,so
for
>> a hivernant,I would say other than possibly a tuque(voyageurs cap) I
doubt
>> that knit sweaters,etc. were common.
>>
>> Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well
>
>Jeff
>
The hand knitted  Jersey , made from home spun ,greasy (un scoured), coarse.
long stapled. wool available in those days would have wearing, warming,and
weather resisting , properties, that those of you who have never worn such a
garment would find hard to believe.
 These Jerseys are still very popular in the High Mountain areas of New
Zealand. ,with farmers and others who lead hard outdoor lives  often
prefering them over modern synthetics
.
Garments made like this have exceptional insulating properties in cold wet
conditions and mittens or gloves knitted in this way would be the best thing
available for a trapper setting traps in icy cold streams.

The Icelandic and other fishermen new this and used wollen gloves for
hauling lines , They  would dip their gloved hands into the icy sea and a
layer of ice would form on the outside insulating against further cold and
wet.
In  the days  of rope ski tows ,before chair lifts, where one had to hold on
to a wet rope to go up the mountain, greasy wool mittens would outlast
leather ones and keep warmer.

I'm not saying they did ,but they certainly could and the garment would have
been ideal.
regards
Cutfinger




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: newhouse traps
Date: 01 Jan 1999 07:31:15 EST

For questions on traps, why don't you check with the National Trappers Assn.
They have many trappers who are trap collectors.  They can be reached at
[e-mail] and at http://www.nationaltrappers.com



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jersey, Geurnsey?
Date: 01 Jan 1999 09:29:09 -0600

   >The hand knitted  Jersey , made from home spun ,greasy (un scoured),
   >coarse. long stapled. wool available in those days would have
   >wearing, warming,and weather resisting , properties, that those of
   >you who have never worn such a garment would find hard to believe.
I have several(2 sweaters,3 or 4 pairs of mitts,and 2 woven blankets) and it
is not hard to believe.
BUT WHERE IS THE DOCUMENTATION?
   >Garments made like this have exceptional insulating properties in
   >cold wet conditions and mittens or gloves knitted in this way would
   >be the best thing available for a trapper setting traps in icy cold
   >streams.
I agree,but where is the DOCUMENTATION?
   >The Icelandic and other fishermen new this and used wollen gloves
   >for hauling lines , They  would dip their gloved hands into the icy
   >sea and a layer of ice would form on the outside insulating against
   >further cold and wet.
Here we have documentation but not in our beloved mountains,and not
 at the right time period
   >I'm not saying they did ,but they certainly could and the garment
   >would have been ideal.
I am sorry,I would love to use all my wool garments,but without
documentation,I would be looked at as another "WANNABE farb".

     Let me present an example: I've done an Ottawa warrior personna for
laughs once in a while. The major drawback to doing it regularly,and I enjoy
doing it,is the fact that I wear glasses and cannot wear contacts.  I really
wanted to do my warrior personna so I kept asking and searching. I now have
the documentation I need to wear my specs AND portray my Ottawa warrior.
First example,1730's or 1740's Connestoga Town,(eastern)Pennsylvania,an
adult male Native buried there wearing brass framed specticles. Next is
White Eyes (a Delaware leader)murdered in Pittsburgh in the Fall of 1778,in
his paint bag were a pair of spectacles. Chota,Tennessee;Cherokee leader
Oconstota died in 1783 and among the possessions buried with him were a pair
of iron rimmed spectacles. Saugatuck,Michigan extensive native cemetary
(Ottawa and Pottowatamie)
excavated in 1929. Touchmarks on trade silver here would date the site from
ca.1780-1812. Among the artifacts recovered were a pair of brass rimmed
specticles.
     You see there are many things I wuold like to use,but with out
documentation its useless. A pilgrim might have a sweater(or smock of you
prefer),but unless someone can list documents showing these articles I
cannot accept them. I am more than willing to be proven wrong,just show me
where the proof is. Once again we are caught in a what could have been
versus what we know was in use. And many of us are restricted(by group or
self)to documentable facts.

Sources: Frontier Advance on the Upper Ohio 1778-1779. Louise P.
Kellogg,State Historical Society of Wisconsin,1916
Overhill Cherokee Archaeology at Chota-Tanasee. Gerald F. Schoedl,
University of Tennesee,1986
Indian Culture and European Trade Goods. George I. Quimby University of
Wisconsin Press,1966 (Quimby was employed by the Field Museum of Natural
History in Chicago)
Personal observation of La52/74 by Alan Gutchess and R.S. Stephenson, PMHC
collection,Harrisburg,Pa. (personal conversation with Alan Gutchess)
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well

Why do we wash bath towels? Aren't we clean when we use them?

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Jersey, Geurnsey?
Date: 01 Jan 1999 16:54:30 EST

The call for documentation from Jeff Powers is well received.  We all could do
a better job of providing references and resources for information we present
in this forum.  Otherwise, we spout opinions and often advance myths and
folflore.  Thanks to Jeff for this reminder!

Jim Hardee, AMM#1676
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA  95971
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)
[phone] FAX
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Matt Richards" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Parfleche primary sources
Date: 02 Jan 1999 00:10:42 -0700

Does anyone know any primary source descriptions of the parfleche making
process from the early to mid 1800's. The earliest source I know is Colonel
Richard Irving Dodge's based on his experiences from the 1840's to 1870's.

I'm partially curious if pounding the hair off is actually described in any
period texts (it is not mentioned in Dodge's account, in his, parfleche is
defined as rawhide made by slipping the hair with a wood-ash lye).

Matt Richards
www.braintan.com






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Richard Pickert <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: newhouse traps
Date: 02 Jan 1999 08:38:43 -0800 (PST)


found this newhouse 114 listed in the price collectors guide by robert
vance for firther information contact me at [e-mail]




---mmorgan  wrote:
>
> Hi! I just bought a group of traps and one was labeled "newhouse
#114".  It has teeth and is about 2 1/2 ft. long.  I can't read
anything on the pan and was wondering if this could be the right
number as it doesn't jibe with the other numbers and sizes I am
familiar with.  Thanks in advance.  Michael in Kansas
>
<HR>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=text/html;charset=iso-8859-1 http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META content='"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=GENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>Hi! I just bought a group of traps and
one was
labeled "newhouse #114".á It has teeth and is about 2 1/2 ft.
long.á I can't read anything on the pan and was wondering if this
could be
the right number as it doesn't jibe with the other numbers and sizes I
am
familiar with.á Thanks in advance.á Michael in
Kansas</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


==


      Rick(Walks in the Night)Pickert


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jerry Anderson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hugh Glass locale
Date: 02 Jan 1999 11:54:03 -0600



JW Stephens wrote:
>
> Rereading the epic of Hugh Glass (under Maj. Henry 1823, chewed by
> "grissly bear" and left to die in the care of Fitzgerald and Bridger,
> abandoned) I decided to check the locale closely on a modern map. I was
> surprised to find that the area of the mauling, which Dale Morgan gives
> as 350 miles from Fort Kiowa, up the Grand River, is near an area of
> North Dakota where I cut wheat during the summer of 1974. I recall the
> area around Reeder and Hettinger, North Dakota as vast rolling prairie,
> not the mountains I had pictured in my mind. Since '74 is a long way
> away, for me, and I hadn't the leisure to roam the area complete, I was
> hoping 'nother reader of this fine list is more familiar with the area
> than I be.
>
> If so, could you fill us in on what the area is like, and any more
> details of the incident?
>
I live in Bismarck, ND, and am familiar with the area that you are
asking about. You are right, it's a long way from mountains, or even
from the Black Hills, which can be fairly mountainous. I would describe
the area as semi-arid steppe--short grass prairie with ash and
cottonwood in the creek-bottoms and along what few watercourses that
could be desribed as rivers. Also included could be areas of "badlands"
and buttes and ridges and rocky outcrops, but mostly, as you remembered,
miles and miles of prairie. Still not a good place for a long walk.

Jerry Anderson
Along the (Frozen) Missouri River



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: guernsey frocks
Date: 02 Jan 1999 12:59:21 +0100

I'm not sure what the continued mystery is about
documentation for gurnsey frocks in the "mountain
man" period in the west.  They were availab le in
the freontier settlements (ie St Louis) and they
were available in the Mountains (ie ft Hall).
Please see Trapper clothing in BOB VII.  I'm not
going to dig it out and re-type references,
because anyone who is really interested can do so
for him or her self.  While more evidence is
certainly welcome (and I have gotten some more
since the Trapper Clothing piece) it does not
change the result that guernsey frocks were
"there" in sufficient quantities that they were
more common than a rare commodity.  We're not
talking aoout Jim Bridger's armour or something
like that.
Why don't we see gurnese frocks in historical
descriptions of trapper appearances?  There is no
clear easy answer.  Whatever the answer is, it is
probably the same reason why those same
descriptions do not mention fabric trousers,
commercial shoes, vests and other clothing items
that were widely available in the West in the
1820-40 period.  My THEORY is that such mundane
items were not nearly picturesque enough to note
and were literally nothing to write home about.
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guernsey frocks
Date: 02 Jan 1999 12:45:26 -0800



Allen Chronister wrote:

> I'm not sure what the continued mystery is about
> documentation for gurnsey frocks in the "mountain
> man" period in the west.  They were availab le in
> the freontier settlements (ie St Louis) and they
> were available in the Mountains (ie ft Hall).
> Please see Trapper clothing in BOB VII.

Allen,

Thank you again for your illuminating thoughts. Now I don't have to dig
either. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hugh Glass locale
Date: 02 Jan 1999 16:38:05 EST

In a message dated 99-01-02 12:55:31 EST, you write:

<< JW Stephens wrote:
 >
 > Rereading the epic of Hugh Glass (under Maj. Henry 1823, chewed by
 > "grissly bear" and left to die in the care of Fitzgerald and Bridger,
 > abandoned) I decided to check the locale closely on a modern map. I was
 > surprised to find that the area of the mauling, which Dale Morgan gives
 > as 350 miles from Fort Kiowa, up the Grand River, is near an area of
 > North Dakota where I cut wheat during the summer of 1974. I recall the >>

There is actually a monument to Glass just a little south of Lemmon, South
Dakota. It is on a hill overlooking the forks of the Grand River. This area
could well be the source of another great story -- the putrified forest. The
town of Lemmon has a great park and museum constructed out of petrified wood.
The floors are petrified grass.
As everyone has been replying, it is grassland. In fact it is National
Grassland. I'll see if I can post a map. I have a picture but am not where the
picture is.

Tom Laidlaw



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Janzen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: "Shoepack" documentation
Date: 02 Jan 1999 21:34:26 -0500

I don't remember who posed the question about historical documentation about
using shoe-packs in the last couple of days, but I ran across a mention in a
book I just started reading. The book is "Westward into Kentucky, the
Narrative of Daniel Trabue" edited by Chester Raymond Young. (University
Press of Kentucky, 1981, ISBN 0-8131-1410-1).
    The book is about Daniel Trabue who lived from 1760-1840 and was a 'long
hunter' in the Kentucky Wilderness when he wasn't fighting the British. I'm
not an expert researcher and this is my first foray into this time and
period, so if this book is not considered to be good documentation, please
shoot me a note. It was written by Trabue in 1827, so he was 67 years old
when he wrote it.
    He writes about a Winter hunting trip in late-1779 in the Green River
area...

"We made socks to go over our shews with Buffelo skins puting the wool
inside and we had woolen gloves..."

Later, "We put on 2 pair of gloves and buffeloe socks on over our shews..."

Interesting that he mentions shoes (or 'shews). On a Spring hunt a couple
months later in 1780 he writes of another hunt when he was forced to escape
from some Indians;

"My shews was wet and too big for me. I kicked them off and went pass them.
I thought off the silver buckels that was in them which was worth $6. I
turned around and reached them..."

I was kind of surprised that he said 'shoes' and not mocassins or something,
but the statement about the buckles makes me sure that he really meant
shoes.

Hope this helps. Let me know if you all have read this book and what you
think of the documentation. I have found one or two inconsistancies in the
first sixty pages or so that could be chalked up to failing memory.

Kid.







-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guernsey frocks
Date: 02 Jan 1999 22:34:03 -0800

I'm following this particular thread keenly since this touches on one of
the key questions in my mind, for anyone who is serious about accuracy.
The question is; For the purist, does the article of interest (be it a
shirt, tool, or whatever) require verifiable primary documentation as
being actually used by a particular person, at a particular place and
time? Or is it sufficient to pass the following tests:
    1) Must be of a material and construction that is time appropriate,
i.e., made by hand using
        a natural resource that was available and known to have been
used for that purpose
    2) Must have been available at a logical supply point, i.e., known
to be for sale or trade at
        a place where the persona of interest would have traded.
    3) Must be an article that the persona of interest would have valued
highly, i.e., something
        necessary for sustenance, travel, trapping, etc., and would have
logically been
        purchased using his very limited resources.

I think the honest application of these criteria will filter out just
about everything that is not appropriate.  Another thought, which may or
may not be suitable, is that every non-native
in the Rocky mountains in 1820 came from somewhere else and may very
well have brought the article of interest with him, again, assuming it
to be something of need (see number 3 above).

The second part of my dilemna has to do with water.  In 1820, there was
little reason to fear disease from natural water supplies. Sadly, this
is no longer true today.  My understanding is that there are few (if
any) places left today where one can drink without well-founded fear. On
modern outings, I am well served with a simple mechanical/chemical
device to restore the integrity of my drinking water.   On primitive
outings so far, there have been ample supplies of good water made
available.   For a more lengthy trek, say several days or more by foot,
how does one deal with this issue in a healthy way?  Just sterilize it
all with 100 proof?

(no flaming arrows, please, I'm only here to learn)

Tom

Allen Chronister wrote:

> I'm not sure what the continued mystery is about
> documentation for gurnsey frocks in the "mountain
> man" period in the west..................




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bob Spencer)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Shoepack" documentation
Date: 02 Jan 1999 23:05:38 -0400

Hi, Kid.

>I was kind of surprised that he said 'shoes' and not mocassins or something,
>but the statement about the buckles makes me sure that he really meant
>shoes.

Thanks, interesting stuff. I suspect the use of shoes was more common than
many would imagine, and I've seen other references to their being used by
hunters. Mark Baker discussed finding notations in the ledgers of Baynton,
Wharton and Morgan of shoes being sold to the market hunters working out of
Kaskaskia, IL, in 1767-68. This was in his new book.

Bob

Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html
non illegitimi carborundum est





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Documentation Question
Date: 02 Jan 1999 23:48:55 EST

Once again the question of documentation has been raised, this time by Tom. He
states that he is following the Guernsey Frock thread with interest to see
what sort of responses come back with reference to documentation.
     I liked Allen's response  about what is all the hubbub over documentation
concerning Guernsey frocks as they has been shown to be documented. I also
agree with Jeff's reminder that we must keep documentation in mind and apply
the standards to all things we seek to authenticate in the material culture of
the Rocky Mountain trapper or other historical characters.
      Tom poses a few criteria to apply toward documentation. I think his # 2
best sums up what most of us normally gauge things by. That is, was an item in
question known to have been in common use during a certain time, within a
particular geographic region as evidenced by trade records, paintings of the
period, journal entries etc.
       An article in Tomahawk and Longrifle a couple of years ago covered this
issue very succinctly. I wish I could remember who wrote it. Was it you Jerry?
or maybe Clay? Anyway it laid down some good criteria to go by. Historically
accurate? Historically available? Historically acceptable, I believe were the
areas the author  defined. Someone refresh my memory as to who wrote the
article and what issue it was in.
        Tom also used the word "purist" to describe those who require
verifiable documentation. I've known others to use words such as "Disciples of
documentation," or the more harsh "Documentation Nazi's" to describe the same.
Someone once suggested the following classifications to describe the differing
levels of re-enactors enthusiasm when it comes to authenticity. Class A
Purist, Class B Semi-Purist and Class C Non-purist. I liked that and adopted
it for use in my own mind.
        I believe the pursuit of authenticity is a must in our craft.  We must
apply some standards to judge things by, other wise it is left wide open to
speculation and all sorts of anachronisms can arise. To me it's a matter of
what is true and what isn't.
     So Tom, keep watching and maybe you'll find an answer.

Todd Glover



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question
Date: 02 Jan 1999 21:42:39 -0800

    Since I reinact a Hudson's Bay Company 1829 Snake River brigade trapper
within a museum at the diorama, I have a different problem when it comes to
documentation, or what the public "thinks" a HBC or Mountain Man ought to
look like!
    I have chosen to wear tanish dirty, hight waisted canvas pants with
dirty white cotton suspenders. My wife has made me a cotton (woven) natural
brown and tan vertical striped, button to the neck shirt. With this I wear
mocs, a big leather belt with forged buckle, with knife and hawk on the
belt. A black felt block hat that I cut myself and a choker patterned after
a Nez Perce piece in the museum.
    First question is usually.."Why arn't you wearing buckskin?" Its usually
pretty easy to get past this, but this is what the general public believes.
I would give my left ___ to have some of you experts and vous specialists
come and help me with what amounts to education. Boy when I get to telling
how we trap beaver, what we use for bait (that sometimes is tricky), how we
dry the skins, eat the tail, etc.....
    The scene has a flintlock gun, bars of lead for bullets, a bullet mold,
powder horn, both types of tents (wedge and lean-to), clay pipe and twist
tobacco, etc, etc. enough stuff to talk for hours.
    Today after everyone had gone to the next part of the museum, one guy
came up to me and said he "does vous and blackpowder!" Damn, thought I was
had.. He was great... he told me all about shooting, how to load, etc. He
also looked at the gun in the scene and guessed at it's caliber (.45).
    Kinda lost my point in rambling on here... but sure would encourage you
guys and gals to consider "go'en public" with all your knowledge.
    The Books of Buckskinning and this list have been my best source of
information. Thanks for listening.
Gail Carbiener
aka HBC Hugo Williams





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question
Date: 02 Jan 1999 21:52:44 -0800



Gail Carbiener wrote:

>     Since I reinact a Hudson's Bay Company 1829 Snake River brigade trapper
> within a museum at the diorama, I have a different problem when it comes to
> documentation, or what the public "thinks" a HBC or Mountain Man ought to
> look like!

Gail,

Sounds like fun. So where are you doing this? Give us a clue and we can come
give you a bad time! <BG> You just need to keep doing what the rest of us are
doing, gett'in some learn'in. Why are you wearing an indian choker? You some
kind'a breed? <G>. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>     I have chosen to wear tanish dirty, hight waisted canvas pants with
> dirty white cotton suspenders. My wife has made me a cotton (woven) natural
> brown and tan vertical striped, button to the neck shirt. With this I wear
> mocs, a big leather belt with forged buckle, with knife and hawk on the
> belt. A black felt block hat that I cut myself and a choker patterned after
> a Nez Perce piece in the museum.
>     First question is usually.."Why arn't you wearing buckskin?" Its usually
> pretty easy to get past this, but this is what the general public believes.
> I would give my left ___ to have some of you experts and vous specialists
> come and help me with what amounts to education. Boy when I get to telling
> how we trap beaver, what we use for bait (that sometimes is tricky), how we
> dry the skins, eat the tail, etc.....
>     The scene has a flintlock gun, bars of lead for bullets, a bullet mold,
> powder horn, both types of tents (wedge and lean-to), clay pipe and twist
> tobacco, etc, etc. enough stuff to talk for hours.
>     Today after everyone had gone to the next part of the museum, one guy
> came up to me and said he "does vous and blackpowder!" Damn, thought I was
> had.. He was great... he told me all about shooting, how to load, etc. He
> also looked at the gun in the scene and guessed at it's caliber (.45).
>     Kinda lost my point in rambling on here... but sure would encourage you
> guys and gals to consider "go'en public" with all your knowledge.
>     The Books of Buckskinning and this list have been my best source of
> information. Thanks for listening.
> Gail Carbiener
> aka HBC Hugo Williams






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question
Date: 02 Jan 1999 22:24:18 -0800

Capt.
    I'm at The High Desert Museum near Bend, Oregon. Part of my persona
includes me being married to "Numa" a Nez Perce. She's not in the scene, but
I let everyone know all the work she does. She made the chocker. Got that
idea from the book about John Work and his 1830-31 HBC trip to the Snake
River plains.
    Capt I'd love to have you drop by!  If your in your buckskin, I'll know
ya. :)
Gail Carbiener
aks HBC Hugo Williams
=================================

>Sounds like fun. So where are you doing this? Give us a clue and we can
come
>give you a bad time! <BG> You just need to keep doing what the rest of us
are
>doing, gett'in some learn'in. Why are you wearing an indian choker? You
some
>kind'a breed? <G>. I remain....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: zaslow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question
Date: 02 Jan 1999 22:48:25 -0800 (PST)

Todd,

You have a good memory.  I wrote the article you speak of in the T&LR.  It
took me about 30 minutes of looking through old issues but I found it.  It
was in the February (Winter) 1996 isssue and was titled, "What do you want,
to be Historically Accurate or Correct?"  It starts on page 32.

This is a question I usually don't address much with this or any group
because I have my own opinion and nothing anyone says will change it.  Since
it has been brought up (along with my article) I will add my 2 cents and the
reasoning behind what I wrote.

Stated quite simply, if an item, clothing, etc. cannot be documented as
available and reasonably accessible to a mountaineer during the American Fur
Trade (1800-1840 and these dates can have variances) then I usually don't
use the item.  I say usually because I make a few exceptions, which are
reasonable to me depending on the situation and/or issue.  What I am talking
about here has to do with the comfort of my family and the funds I have
available to spend on an item.  An example is, at a commercial Rendezvous
where my wife and daughters attend with me, I use a pyramid and/or miner's
tent.  Although there is some documentation that it might have been used at
Rendezvous, I don't buy it.

Knowing that it is not exactly correct, I still choose to use the pyramid
tent simply because I don't want to spend my money on another shelter (I
would rather spend it on horses and related gear that is historically
correct), it is comfortable for my family (the tent is 15' x 15' x 9' high)
and easy to put up.  If my family does not attend or I attend an AMM
function, I only use a diamond fly or sleep under the stars.  YES, this is a
compromise, but one I can live with.  That is the point, though.  No one
should criticize another person's compromises; it is their view of what is
acceptible or not and that is THEIR reality.

Other than this one item, I believe everything else I use is Historically
Correct.  I have reasonable documentation on my clothing, guns/accessories
and horse gear (saddle and tack.)  That is what I choose to do.  Others are
less strict and that is their business and right to feel that way; they just
play the game by a different set of rules that I do.  Neither is right or
wrong, just different.

Just my opinion.

Best Regards & Happy New Year,

Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
________________________________________________________________________________

At 11:48 PM 1/2/99 EST, you wrote:
>Once again the question of documentation has been raised, this time by Tom. He
>states that he is following the Guernsey Frock thread with interest to see
>what sort of responses come back with reference to documentation.
>
>       An article in Tomahawk and Longrifle a couple of years ago covered this
>issue very succinctly. I wish I could remember who wrote it. Was it you Jerry?
>or maybe Clay? Anyway it laid down some good criteria to go by. Historically
>accurate? Historically available? Historically acceptable, I believe were the
>areas the author  defined. Someone refresh my memory as to who wrote the
>article and what issue it was in.

>     So Tom, keep watching and maybe you'll find an answer.
>
>Todd Glover
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guernsey frocks
Date: 03 Jan 1999 00:11:07 +0000

Tom, Ceramic pumps, and the like, are acceptable for use at an AMM
function.  Keep them hidden, as well as possible.  Unfortunetly, all
water should be considered with suspicion.  The authentic experience
should not include sickness due to contaminated water.  Hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question
Date: 03 Jan 1999 00:36:11 +0000

Gail, You wrote........ but sure would encourage you
guys and gals to consider "go'en public" with all your knowledge.
Some of us do.  In my area we have a 'doin's' at the local Mission.  It
is a 2,000 acre State Park, with a rather complete "working mission".  We
do this two weekends a year.  It's a great opportunity for a couple of
dozen AMM members to get together.  We set up a camp of 'Trail Weary'
trappers/explorers.  We interact with the Mission's Docents, and the
public visitors.  We do this the 4th weekend in March, and the 4th
weekend in August.  I know some guys, including me, who have put on
demonstrations at local schools.  There is a strict law here in Calif.,
No guns anywhere near a school!!!    My sons school let me right in with
them, no checks, etc...  The school was glad to get a'real' history
lesson.  Have fun with the HBC demonstration.  Just keep doing your
homework...      Hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes out of deer hide?
Date: 03 Jan 1999 07:47:34 -0700

I've found some references to leather capots in my reading of W. Canadian
fur trade journals, 1774-1821. Also, a caribou-hide garment called a 'toggy'
was worn by HBC men in the Hudson's Bay area.

In haste,
A.G.
[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question
Date: 03 Jan 1999 11:03:13 -0600

Well said brother ! ! ! We all make concessions, some more than others, but
as long as we stay within the proper boundaries that is acceptable. The
fact is we live in the 20th century. We have to deal with water that is not
safe to drink, land use restrictions transportation problems, etc. We also
have to be able to get up and go to work on Mon. and be able to function on
a reasonable level. That should not be used as a excuse to conduct
ourselves, and maintain our camps in a manner that offends others. There
will always be those who might disagree but I don't think that can be
avoided. Having said all that, we should keep in mind where we are. The
level of authinticity required and expected at a A.M.M function is and
should be higher than that  expected at a club vous or a dog and pony show.
I may have stirred up another can of worms with these comments, but I hope
not.
Pendleton #1572

----------
> From: zaslow <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question
> Date: Sunday, January 03, 1999 12:48 AM
>
> Todd,
>
> You have a good memory.  I wrote the article you speak of in the T&LR.
It
> took me about 30 minutes of looking through old issues but I found it.
It
> was in the February (Winter) 1996 isssue and was titled, "What do you
want,
> to be Historically Accurate or Correct?"  It starts on page 32.
>
> This is a question I usually don't address much with this or any group
> because I have my own opinion and nothing anyone says will change it.
Since
> it has been brought up (along with my article) I will add my 2 cents and
the
> reasoning behind what I wrote.
>
> Stated quite simply, if an item, clothing, etc. cannot be documented as
> available and reasonably accessible to a mountaineer during the American
Fur
> Trade (1800-1840 and these dates can have variances) then I usually don't
> use the item.  I say usually because I make a few exceptions, which are
> reasonable to me depending on the situation and/or issue.  What I am
talking
> about here has to do with the comfort of my family and the funds I have
> available to spend on an item.  An example is, at a commercial Rendezvous
> where my wife and daughters attend with me, I use a pyramid and/or
miner's
> tent.  Although there is some documentation that it might have been used
at
> Rendezvous, I don't buy it.
>
> Knowing that it is not exactly correct, I still choose to use the pyramid
> tent simply because I don't want to spend my money on another shelter (I
> would rather spend it on horses and related gear that is historically
> correct), it is comfortable for my family (the tent is 15' x 15' x 9'
high)
> and easy to put up.  If my family does not attend or I attend an AMM
> function, I only use a diamond fly or sleep under the stars.  YES, this
is a
> compromise, but one I can live with.  That is the point, though.  No one
> should criticize another person's compromises; it is their view of what
is
> acceptible or not and that is THEIR reality.
>
> Other than this one item, I believe everything else I use is Historically
> Correct.  I have reasonable documentation on my clothing,
guns/accessories
> and horse gear (saddle and tack.)  That is what I choose to do.  Others
are
> less strict and that is their business and right to feel that way; they
just
> play the game by a different set of rules that I do.  Neither is right or
> wrong, just different.
>
> Just my opinion.
>
> Best Regards & Happy New Year,
>
> Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
>
____________________________________________________________________________
____
>
> At 11:48 PM 1/2/99 EST, you wrote:
> >Once again the question of documentation has been raised, this time by
Tom. He
> >states that he is following the Guernsey Frock thread with interest to
see
> >what sort of responses come back with reference to documentation.
> >
> >       An article in Tomahawk and Longrifle a couple of years ago
covered this
> >issue very succinctly. I wish I could remember who wrote it. Was it you
Jerry?
> >or maybe Clay? Anyway it laid down some good criteria to go by.
Historically
> >accurate? Historically available? Historically acceptable, I believe
were the
> >areas the author  defined. Someone refresh my memory as to who wrote the
> >article and what issue it was in.
>
> >     So Tom, keep watching and maybe you'll find an answer.
> >
> >Todd Glover
> >
> >
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question
Date: 03 Jan 1999 12:25:25 -0500

yellow rose/pendleton wrote:
>
> Well said brother ! ! ! We all make concessions, some more than others, but
> as long as we stay within the proper boundaries that is acceptable. The
> fact is we live in the 20th century. We have to deal with water that is not
> safe to drink, land use restrictions transportation problems, etc. We also
> have to be able to get up and go to work on Mon. and be able to function on
> a reasonable level. That should not be used as a excuse to conduct
> ourselves, and maintain our camps in a manner that offends others. There
> will always be those who might disagree but I don't think that can be
> avoided. Having said all that, we should keep in mind where we are. The
> level of authinticity required and expected at a A.M.M function is and
> should be higher than that  expected at a club vous or a dog and pony show.
> I may have stirred up another can of worms with these comments, but I hope
> not.

I'd agree 100%!  With the NMLRA allowing just about anything, it's
even more important for the AMM to make CERTAIN it stays "pure."

Fred

--
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question
Date: 03 Jan 1999 11:44:51 -0800

Mr. Williams,

Sounds like fun. I shall make every effort to stop by when next in your area.
Perhaps you could also advise us when we may find you in residence? I have been
meaning to make an expedition to that area of the Oregon Country to apprise
myself and my partners as to the opportunities available to enterprising
individuals. The last such trip was into the "Sisters" area where I and several
others (our guide was a Mr. Steve Alli ), were forced to take overnight shelter
in a " Rock House". Not in itself a pleasant experience since at any moment we
or rather I expected the roof to meet with the floor with me in-between. I
finally took my bed roll out under the open sky and spent the rest of the night
in safe rain. There was a nice stream just below the Rock House that had it's
beginning in a beautiful mountain lake just a few miles up from where we were.
Perhaps you are familiar with this?

And give my regards to your lovely wife. Hoping to hear from you soon, I
remain........

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Public
Date: 03 Jan 1999 13:03:57 -0800

Hardtack:
    Yeh, I should have thought that some of you vou guys would have "gone
public". Thanks for bringing me up. I was caught up in the idea that most of
the time you all were out in the woods going primative! Hope to catch one of
you some day, so I can learn more! Thanks for the encouragement.
    Have a question.......... what kind of container do you use to keep your
charcloth dry?
Gail Carbiener
aks HBC Hugo Williams
===============================================

>Some of us do.  In my area we have a 'doin's' at the local Mission.  It
>is a 2,000 acre State Park, with a rather complete "working mission".  We
>do this two weekends a year.  It's a great opportunity for a couple of
>dozen AMM members to get together.  We set up a camp of 'Trail Weary'
>trappers/explorers.  We interact with the Mission's Docents, and the
>public visitors.  We do this the 4th weekend in March, and the 4th
>weekend in August.  I know some guys, including me, who have put on
>demonstrations at local schools.  There is a strict law here in Calif.,
>No guns anywhere near a school!!!    My sons school let me right in with
>them, no checks, etc...  The school was glad to get a'real' history
>lesson.  Have fun with the HBC demonstration.  Just keep doing your
>homework...      Hardtack






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Public
Date: 03 Jan 1999 13:57:22 +0000

Gail,  Most of our activities are out in the woods, etc....  Some of us
feel it is important to do a public event every once in awhile.  We share
our skills and talents, in the hopes of keeping these skills alive.  I
keep my tinder in a two piece, press together , tin can.  At the point
where the cans overlap I rub beeswax around the edges, and the seam.
Some- times, this makes it hard to get the can open, but it keeps things
dry.    Hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Public
Date: 03 Jan 1999 16:24:25 -0500

Hardtack,
 I have been sealing my tin with pine pitch  w/ a touch of wax (more
pliable) around the inside rim. Quit usin Charcloth years ago, love punk
wood and tree fungus..More handy..
Yr Brother
Dennis
Ohio

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


>Gail,  Most of our activities are out in the woods, etc....  Some of us
>feel it is important to do a public event every once in awhile.  We share
>our skills and talents, in the hopes of keeping these skills alive.  I
>keep my tinder in a two piece, press together , tin can.  At the point
>where the cans overlap I rub beeswax around the edges, and the seam.
>Some- times, this makes it hard to get the can open, but it keeps things
>dry.    Hardtack
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question
Date: 03 Jan 1999 16:10:18 -0700

We have been off the list for a few days, so hope I don't sound like an
idiot, but what is the description of a guernsey frock.  Not familiar with
the name.
AS for making concessions, I don't see how in this day and age we can
keep from it.  Especially in 3 areas.
Water - It would be the height of stupidity to try to drink outdoors
water, especially here in Colorado.  Either take it with you or filter it.
Anybody that wants to argue that one can pay the emergency room bill.
Food - We can't go camping five or six times a year and live off the
land.  We have too many laws and anybody that waznts to argue this one can pay
the fine.
Medicines - I really can't see someone leaving his insulin at home for a
week just to be more authentic.  Anybody that wants to argue this one can
bury that guy.
The one for me that is questionable is winter sleeping.  I know that the
original mountain men chopped off branches to put under their beds to
insulate them from the ground.  I would certainly not recommend doing that
these days.  So what would be a reasonable alternative?
So for me, yes we do have to make compromises.  No mor that we have to,
keep them under wraps as much as possible and only when we aabsolutely have
to.
Don Keas


Fred A. Miller wrote:
>yellow rose/pendleton wrote:
>>
>> Well said brother ! ! ! We all make concessions, some more than
others, but
>> as long as we stay within the proper boundaries that is acceptable.
The
>> fact is we live in the 20th century. We have to deal with water that
is not
>> safe to drink, land use restrictions transportation problems, etc. We
also
>> have to be able to get up and go to work on Mon. and be able to
function on
>> a reasonable level. That should not be used as a excuse to conduct
>> ourselves, and maintain our camps in a manner that offends others.
There
>> will always be those who might disagree but I don't think that can be
>> avoided. Having said all that, we should keep in mind where we are.
The
>> level of authinticity required and expected at a A.M.M function is and
>> should be higher than that  expected at a club vous or a dog and pony
show.
>> I may have stirred up another can of worms with these comments, but I
hope
>> not.
>
>I'd agree 100%!  With the NMLRA allowing just about anything, it's
>even more important for the AMM to make CERTAIN it stays "pure."
>
>Fred
>
>--
>"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
>
>
>
>RFC822 header
>-----------------------------------
>
>Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with
ESMTP
>  (SMTPD32-4.03) id A8573AD00A8; Sun, 03 Jan 1999 10:26:47 MDT
>Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1)
>    id 0zwrHC-0007RG-00
>    for [e-mail]; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:25:18 -0700
>Received: from [205.232.34.14] (helo=emerald.lightlink.com ident=root)
>    by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1)
>    id 0zwrH9-0007RB-00
>    for [e-mail]; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:25:15 -0700
>Received: from lightlink.com ([e-mail]
[205.232.34.193])
>    by emerald.lightlink.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA13774
>    for <[e-mail]>; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 12:25:12 -0500
>Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
>Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 12:25:25 -0500
>From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.35 i686)
>X-Accept-Language: en
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question
>References: <[e-mail]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Sender: [e-mail]
>Precedence: bulk
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>X-UIDL: 909625420
>Status: U
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Public
Date: 03 Jan 1999 18:16:11 -0500



On Sun, 3 Jan 1999 13:03:57 -0800 "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
writes:

>    Have a question.......... what kind of container do you use to
>keep your
>charcloth dry?

I use a cap box most of the time it seals tight and is almost water proof
if i an going to be out for a while I use a keewee shoe polish tin that I
have cleaned out---and make fresh if reqd--over the camp fire---have a
cap box in my shooting bag and all i hav to carry is the cotton cloth---

>Gail Carbiener
>aks HBC Hugo Williams
>===============================================

  There is a strict law here in
>Calif.,
>>No guns anywhere near a school!!!

that law i believe is nation wide ---that is why i quit doing show and
tells at schools---still do them for the scouts and stuff but not within
500 ft of a school yard or school building .
the gun law is almost like the drug law---zero tollerance and no
exceptions
         =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Public
Date: 03 Jan 1999 19:08:51 EST

> that law i believe is nation wide ---that is why i quit doing show and
>  tells at schools---still do them for the scouts and stuff but not within
>  500 ft of a school yard or school building .
>  the gun law is almost like the drug law---zero tollerance and no
>  exceptions

Actually, there are exceptions.  We use school gyms and classrooms extensively
for Hunter Education classes.  Signed statements from the Principal or
Superintendent are required stating that it is OK to have guns on the premises
and that they are for educational purposes.  However, no live ammo or powder
allowed.

Dave Kanger



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guernsey frocks
Date: 03 Jan 1999 18:26:40 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE3746.9B4E7040
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Tom,
You seem to be on the right track for wanting to do things correctly, =
just remember that research is your best tools, advice from many will be =
"iffy" at best and many on this list will tell you that. Good research =
will 95% of the time give you a correct answer, then let these folks =
know what you have found. They give you their input and you'll have to =
weed it out from there.
As far as water goes you can do as many of us have and and still do, =
carry it in. We have carried in gourds and water containers, canteens on =
foot and horseback, or 5 gal.oak kegs in canoe and other types of water =
craft.
On an extended canoe trip of 1260 river miles, with no support for the 5 =
members we carried three 5 gal. oak kegs and several canteens a piece, =
when nearing a town the smaller canoe would look for a park or home near =
the river. Once found we would bargain and sometimes beg with the =
natives for refills. Usually most people are just excited to see and ask =
questions, the refill were never a problem.
Granted one needs to use common sense with the condition of our =
waterways today, but for an example we washed ourselves, our clothes and =
our cooking items in the river water whether it was the Platte, Missouri =
or the Mississippi, (we would heat the cooking items over the fire in =
hopes of killing anything harmful) I guess we were lucky in what is read =
now.
None of the members got sick, no poops - if anything we had more of a =
problem in having one with period correct foods for 28 days. Damn the =
wild rice, buffalo and foraged edibles, we were use to greasy Big Mac's =
and the like, good food just stuck with us and all the paddling at hand =
(on the water at day break and getting off at dust, making an average of =
35-40 river miles a day, left little time for anything but paddling).
Just remember to do your research, but you common sense so you don't get =
in trouble, health wise, law wise, or anyother wise.
Good Luck
Buck Conner
dba/ Clark & Sons Mercantile
http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/

-----Original Message-----


>I'm following this particular thread keenly since this touches on one =
of
>the key questions in my mind, for anyone who is serious about accuracy.
>The question is; For the purist, does the article of interest (be it a
>shirt, tool, or whatever) require verifiable primary documentation as
>being actually used by a particular person, at a particular place and
>time? Or is it sufficient to pass the following tests:
>    1) Must be of a material and construction that is time appropriate,
>i.e., made by hand using
>        a natural resource that was available and known to have been
>used for that purpose
>    2) Must have been available at a logical supply point, i.e., known
>to be for sale or trade at
>        a place where the persona of interest would have traded.
>    3) Must be an article that the persona of interest would have =
valued
>highly, i.e., something
>        necessary for sustenance, travel, trapping, etc., and would =
have
>logically been
>        purchased using his very limited resources.
>
>I think the honest application of these criteria will filter out just
>about everything that is not appropriate.  Another thought, which may =
or
>may not be suitable, is that every non-native
>in the Rocky mountains in 1820 came from somewhere else and may very
>well have brought the article of interest with him, again, assuming it
>to be something of need (see number 3 above).
>
>The second part of my dilemna has to do with water.  In 1820, there was
>little reason to fear disease from natural water supplies. Sadly, this
>is no longer true today.  My understanding is that there are few (if
>any) places left today where one can drink without well-founded fear. =
On
>modern outings, I am well served with a simple mechanical/chemical
>device to restore the integrity of my drinking water.   On primitive
>outings so far, there have been ample supplies of good water made
>available.   For a more lengthy trek, say several days or more by foot,
>how does one deal with this issue in a healthy way?  Just sterilize it
>all with 100 proof?
>
>(no flaming arrows, please, I'm only here to learn)
>
>Tom
>
>Allen Chronister wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure what the continued mystery is about
>> documentation for gurnsey frocks in the "mountain
>> man" period in the west..................
>
>

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE3746.9B4E7040
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><FONT=20
size=3D4>T</FONT>om,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><FONT=20
size=3D4></FONT></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D2><FONT=20
size=3D4>Y</FONT>ou seem to be on the right track for wanting to do =
things=20
correctly, just remember that research is your best tools, advice from =
many will=20
be "iffy" at best and many on this list will tell you that. =
Good=20
research will 95% of the time give you a correct answer, then let these =
folks=20
know what you have found. They give you their input and you'll have to =
weed it=20
out from there.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><FONT =
size=3D4>A</FONT>s=20
far as water goes you can do as many of us have and and still do, carry =
it in.=20
We have carried in gourds and water containers, canteens on foot and =
horseback,=20
or 5 gal.oak kegs in canoe and other types of water craft.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><FONT =
size=3D4>O</FONT>n an=20
extended canoe trip of 1260 river miles, with no support for the 5 =
members we=20
carried three 5 gal. oak kegs and several canteens a piece, when nearing =
a town=20
the smaller canoe would look for a park or home near the river. Once =
found we=20
would bargain and sometimes beg with the natives for refills. Usually =
most=20
people are just excited to see and ask questions, the refill were never =
a=20
problem.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><FONT=20
size=3D4>G</FONT>ranted one needs to use common sense with the condition =
of our=20
waterways today, but for an example we washed ourselves, our clothes and =
our=20
cooking items in the river water whether it was the Platte, Missouri or =
the=20
Mississippi, (we would heat the cooking items over the fire in hopes of =
killing=20
anything harmful) I guess we were lucky in what is read =
now.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><FONT =
size=3D4>N</FONT>one=20
of the members got sick, no poops - if anything we had more of a problem =
in=20
having one with period correct foods for 28 days. Damn the wild rice, =
buffalo=20
and foraged edibles, we were use to greasy Big Mac's and the like, good =
food=20
just stuck with us and all the paddling at hand (on the water at day =
break and=20
getting off at dust, making an average of 35-40 river miles a day, left =
little=20
time for anything but paddling).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2>Just =
remember to do your=20
research, but you common sense so you don't get in trouble, health wise, =
law=20
wise, or anyother wise.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><FONT =
size=3D4>G</FONT>ood=20
Luck</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DMistral size=3D4>Buck =
Conner</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2>dba/ Clark =
& Sons=20
Mercantile</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/">http://www.teleport.com/=
~walking/clark/</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Tom =
Roberts=20
<<A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR>To: =
<A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
<<A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR>Date:=20
Saturday, January 02, 1999 8:25 PM<BR>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guernsey=20
frocks<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>>I'm following this particular thread =
keenly since=20
this touches on one of<BR>>the key questions in my mind, for anyone =
who is=20
serious about accuracy.<BR>>The question is; For the purist, does the =
article=20
of interest (be it a<BR>>shirt, tool, or whatever) require verifiable =
primary=20
documentation as<BR>>being actually used by a particular person, at a =

particular place and<BR>>time? Or is it sufficient to pass the =
following=20
tests:<BR>>    1) Must be of a material and =
construction that=20
is time appropriate,<BR>>i.e., made by hand=20
using<BR>>        a natural =
resource that=20
was available and known to have been<BR>>used for that=20
purpose<BR>>    2) Must have been available at a =
logical=20
supply point, i.e., known<BR>>to be for sale or trade=20
at<BR>>        a place where the =
persona=20
of interest would have traded.<BR>>    3) Must be an =
article=20
that the persona of interest would have valued<BR>>highly, i.e.,=20
something<BR>>        necessary =
for=20
sustenance, travel, trapping, etc., and would have<BR>>logically=20
been<BR>>        purchased using =
his very=20
limited resources.<BR>><BR>>I think the honest application of =
these=20
criteria will filter out just<BR>>about everything that is not=20
appropriate.  Another thought, which may or<BR>>may not be =
suitable, is=20
that every non-native<BR>>in the Rocky mountains in 1820 came from =
somewhere=20
else and may very<BR>>well have brought the article of interest with =
him,=20
again, assuming it<BR>>to be something of need (see number 3=20
above).<BR>><BR>>The second part of my dilemna has to do with =
water. =20
In 1820, there was<BR>>little reason to fear disease from natural =
water=20
supplies. Sadly, this<BR>>is no longer true today.  My =
understanding is=20
that there are few (if<BR>>any) places left today where one can drink =
without=20
well-founded fear. On<BR>>modern outings, I am well served with a =
simple=20
mechanical/chemical<BR>>device to restore the integrity of my =
drinking=20
water.   On primitive<BR>>outings so far, there have been =
ample=20
supplies of good water made<BR>>available.   For a more =
lengthy=20
trek, say several days or more by foot,<BR>>how does one deal with =
this issue=20
in a healthy way?  Just sterilize it<BR>>all with 100=20
proof?<BR>><BR>>(no flaming arrows, please, I'm only here to=20
learn)<BR>><BR>>Tom<BR>><BR>>Allen Chronister=20
wrote:<BR>><BR>>> I'm not sure what the continued mystery is=20
about<BR>>> documentation for gurnsey frocks in the=20
"mountain<BR>>> man" period in the=20
west..................<BR>><BR>></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE3746.9B4E7040--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: shoe pack documentation
Date: 03 Jan 1999 19:50:52 -0600


--------------D995436CF874E03341C2B635
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit




>
>
> >I don't remember who posed the question about historical documentation about
> >using shoe-packs in the last couple of days, but I ran across a mention in a
> >book I just started reading. The book is "Westward into Kentucky, the
> >Narrative of Daniel Trabue"

There are two, or possibly three sources of documentation for the shoepack
that I can think of  off hand. The first is from an excavation at Ft. Ligoner, the
second is Peter Kalms Travels into North America , and if I remember correctly,
another example was excavated in or near Michilimacinac, or Detroit.  I seem to
remember another reference to the shoepack from another contemporary journal,
but I can't remember what it was.            J.D.

--------------D995436CF874E03341C2B635
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>

<br>
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<p>>I don't remember who posed the question about historical documentation
about
<br>>using shoe-packs in the last couple of days, but I ran across a mention
in a
<br>>book I just started reading. The book is "Westward into Kentucky,
the
<br>>Narrative of Daniel Trabue"</blockquote>
There are two, or possibly three sources of documentation for the shoepack
<br>that I can think of  off hand. The first is from an excavation
at Ft. Ligoner, the
<br>second is Peter Kalms <u>Travels into North America</u> , and if I
remember correctly,
<br>another example was excavated in or near Michilimacinac, or Detroit.
I seem to
<br>remember another reference to the shoepack from another contemporary
journal,
<br>but I can't remember what it was.
J.D.</html>

--------------D995436CF874E03341C2B635--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question
Date: 03 Jan 1999 21:31:37 EST

To Jerry Z, Hardtack, Don and the rest - Thanks for your notes. And thanks for
keeping the AMM pure as driven snow, and providing us with CORRECT information
and how-tos when its needed.  Many of us compromise for the sake of comfort,
medical necessity, family concerns, relaxation, etc, but even those of us who
do the 'porky-do's' for the most part have a great concern for keeping
appearances correct, and not offending anyone else in the process.  (and yes,
I have eaten pork with some AMM guys at those doin's ). For the pilgrims
reading... don't let these guys scare you.  You are welcome at a public
rendezvous as long as your heart and mind and attitude are in the right place.
There are officials at every event to help keep the 'theme' on track and
prevent gross violations, but don't be afraid to come out and learn, and
remember that the guys who do it RIGHT, even though not perfect at times, are
the AMM brothers.   Their knowledge on everything from survival to weapons to
foods cannot be found in any one book, and sitting around a campfire with
these guys is one of the most wonderful rendezvous experiences.

Here's to shinin' times for all..........        Barney P. Fife



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water purification
Date: 03 Jan 1999 21:35:00 EST

Anybody have info on correct ways to clean up water?  although ceramic
filters/pumps are acceptable at ANY event, aren't there ways you can still get
clean water with traditional methods?  I just read a note from a buddy who
wrings it through a piece of deer skin and boils it, and there must be are
others as well  YHS,  Barney Fife.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water purification
Date: 03 Jan 1999 20:36:57 -0800



[e-mail] wrote:

> Anybody have info on correct ways to clean up water?

  One method one could use is a sand/charcoal filter.  In a pot or some other
vessel with small holes at the bottom you place a fine cloth, a layer of clean
fine sand, activated charcoal, sand, and so on.  You can then pour in pond water
etc and the majority of the solids and bad flavor will be gone.  Then you must
boil it. Or if you are from Texas you can just drink from a muddy hoofprint.

Your most onry and disobedient hivernant.
Sega




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water purification
Date: 03 Jan 1999 21:37:12 +0000

'Barney', <s>    Boiling will kill anything alive in the water, but it
won't do much for chemical contaminants.  A good ceramic filter will
provide safe water.  The filters are light, and easily concealed.
Boiling takes a long time.  I spent 3 days out with a friend.  We spent
most of our time boiling water, and keeping the fire going.  The worst
part is, I still got sick.  The doc said all it takes is a drop of bad
water to make you sick.  Hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water purification
Date: 04 Jan 1999 00:06:12 -0600

Correction:  We Texans don't drink from muddy hoofprints....we catch =
large bass from muddy hoofprints.  We drink from jugs filled with good =
likker from foreign countries, like Mexico, Tennessee or Kentucky.
Seriously, my brother holds a license that qualifies him to operate a =
water treatment facility for a small city and he tells me that boiling =
will kill the cooties if continued long enough.  He also says that =
virtually all dangereous cooties will be removed by a ONE micron filter, =
although most on the market are three micron and will leave a few.  And, =
as already noted, filters and boiling do nothing to remove chemicals and =
heavy metals which are abundant in dangerous concentration in many =
waterways everywhere.  Giraradia is found in virtually every body of =
water in the country and is something to avoid.  Period.  Whenever =
possible I haul in ALL my drinking water.
For What It's Worth
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----


>
>
>[e-mail] wrote:
>
>> Anybody have info on correct ways to clean up water?
>
>  One method one could use is a sand/charcoal filter.  In a pot or some =
other
>vessel with small holes at the bottom you place a fine cloth, a layer =
of clean
>fine sand, activated charcoal, sand, and so on.  You can then pour in =
pond water
>etc and the majority of the solids and bad flavor will be gone.  Then =
you must
>boil it. Or if you are from Texas you can just drink from a muddy =
hoofprint.
>
>Your most onry and disobedient hivernant.
>Sega
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Munroe Crutchley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question
Date: 03 Jan 1999 22:06:53 -0800

In a message dated  Sunday, January 03, 1999 6:31 PM, Barney P. Fife wrote:

> You are welcome at a public
> rendezvous as long as your heart and mind and attitude are in the right
place.

I would like to attend a rendezvous just to see what it is like. I don't
have ANY period correct gear except a rifle that is a faithful copy of a
late S. Hawken. Are folks like me welcome to come and look around? What are
the guidelines?

Munroe Crutchley
Grants Pass, OR



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question
Date: 04 Jan 1999 00:20:24 -0600

Munroe
Most rendezvous have a designated day when the public is welcome. =
Contact the booshway of the rendezvous or a club official and ask if  =
such a policy exists for a given rendezvous.  Many clubs will make an =
effort to lend you enough clothes to make you period enough for their =
doin's, or they will help you make what is necessary.  That way you can =
attend the rendezvous at a time that is more convenient to you.
good luck
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----


>In a message dated  Sunday, January 03, 1999 6:31 PM, Barney P. Fife =
wrote:
>
>> You are welcome at a public
>> rendezvous as long as your heart and mind and attitude are in the =
right
>place.
>
>I would like to attend a rendezvous just to see what it is like. I =
don't
>have ANY period correct gear except a rifle that is a faithful copy of =
a
>late S. Hawken. Are folks like me welcome to come and look around? What =
are
>the guidelines?
>
>Munroe Crutchley
>Grants Pass, OR
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question
Date: 04 Jan 1999 00:27:40 -0600

Munroe
Click on this page for rendezvous in your part of the world.
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186/index.htm
Lanney
-----Original Message-----


>In a message dated  Sunday, January 03, 1999 6:31 PM, Barney P. Fife =
wrote:
>
>> You are welcome at a public
>> rendezvous as long as your heart and mind and attitude are in the =
right
>place.
>
>I would like to attend a rendezvous just to see what it is like. I =
don't
>have ANY period correct gear except a rifle that is a faithful copy of =
a
>late S. Hawken. Are folks like me welcome to come and look around? What =
are
>the guidelines?
>
>Munroe Crutchley
>Grants Pass, OR
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water purification
Date: 04 Jan 1999 02:19:39 EST

Hello!
 JR's wife Eileen here-Hope this helps, Try this:
A Simple Solar Water Pasteurizer
Drinking water can be easily pasteurized using solar energy and a few simple
materials.  When water or milk is pasteurized the common disease-causing
organisms are killed.
What you will need:
A container such as a basket or wooden box.
    Container materials must have basic heat retaining qualities.
        Bricks and metal containers do not work well unless they are insulated.
        In foil to line the inside of the container.  While it is possible to
pasteurize a small         amount of water without tin foil, its use appreciably
improves performance.
A good piece of black cast iron (dark colored solar absorber plate) to conduct
the heat to the water containers.
A solar "window"made of glass over the top of the container.
A reflector to bounce in additional sunlight. (ever seen the chicken roasters
form the rev war period)?
Dark or clear containers to hold water or food (since you can cook in this
oven as well).

To pasteurize water, heat it in this "solar box" to at least 65 degrees C (150
F) and keep the water at that temperature or above for at least 30 minutes.
If no thermometer is available, heat until bubbles are rising from the bottom
steadily.
Natural waxes, such as beeswax, can be used to indicate pasteurization
temperature.  Solar conditions, weather conditions, latitude and box
efficiency are all variables that affect the ability of solar boxes to
pasteurize water.  As a general guideline, 1 gallon of water can be
pasteurized in about 3 hours on a day with strong sunlight and the sun high in
the sky.  The glass-covered opening should be at least 18" x 24" and have a
depth just taller than the water containers inside.  Larger boxes can
pasteurize more water, smaller less.
Pasteurization kills germs and disease-carrying organisms in drinking water
including bacteria, rotaviruses, enteroviruses, commonly transmitted in
contaminated water.  Pasteurized water should not be used for medical
procedures.
Pasteurization does not remove chemical contamination such as pesticides or
industrial wastes.
Pasteurization of Naturally Contaminated Water with Solar Energy (Applied and
Environmental Microbiology v. 47 no 2, 1984)



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Water and going public
Date: 04 Jan 1999 10:11:21 EST

In a message dated 99-01-03 02:34:43 EST, RANDAL J BUBLITZ wrote:

<< Unfortunetly, all water should be considered with suspicion.  The authentic
experience should not include sickness due to contaminated water. >>

This is all to true.  At many reinactments and rendezvous the water is
provided and "certified" town water safe.  I have seen far to many water tanks
with dead animal and vegitation in the water.  Not because the organizers did
not clean them out prior to the gathering but it is amazing what crawls in if
the lid is not tightened down.  And if the top has a vent and the temperature
is high the clorine used to keep city water safe evaporates fast.  So in a not
so authentic but safe way when my family is going to an event we always carry
in (covered of course) enough safe water for drinking.  Water for cooking and
washing can be boilied, but drinking is another thing.  I've seen to many
peoples good times spent in the out house due to bad water.

Water purification tablets are also a good thing to put in your kit.  They may
not make the water taste good but if you are thristy they will keep you from
getting sick.  They are available from almost any camping/sporting store and
in that section of many large stores like Wally World.

<<Gail, wrote........ but sure would encourage you
guys and gals to consider "go'en public" with all your knowledge.
Some of us do.>>

My wife does, she teaches 18th century cooking at the Genesee Country Museum
in Mumford NY.  Another of her training/outreach projects is the one room
school house.  Many of the towns around here have original one room school
houses that the local middle and elementary teachers will bring their classes
to for a authentic day in school in the late 1700's to early 1800's.

Our black powder club does several "Educational" camps a year (affectionately
know as Show and Tells) at which we set up camp at museum or town festival or
National Hunting and Fishing Days and demonstrate 18th century activites from
sewing (clothes and pouches) to making powder horns, to cooking, etc.  So if
you look around the various historical sites and ask around you will probably
find one or more of us working or volunteering, ready and willing to discuss
the history of the period.

<<Pendleton #1572 wrote:  The level of authinticity required and expected at a
A.M.M function is and
should be higher than that  expected at a club vous or a dog and pony show.>>

From what I know of A.M.M. I would expect this.  My family and I go to strict
Fort based F&I events and Rev War events and Rendezvouse.  Many of the
Rendezvouse are a lot more forgiving and try to accomodate people who are new
to the activity under the general idea that as you learn you will grow and
your persona and camp will become as accurate as you can.  Some of the
Rendezvouse try to be period accurate right from the start, enforcing things
like no cigarette lighters (no cigarettes, pipes only).  And there is talk at
Ft. Naigara that this year to participate in the F&I event NO FACIAL HAIR,
there goes my mustache.

My family go to rendezvouse for the fun and the friendships and well we
maintain a period correct (not counting the hidden coolers and water jugs)
camp I do not get upset when I see someone else that has not had the time or
the money to get to that point yet.  But as we became more and more accurate
we started to seek out the strickter events for the same reasons I am sure
many members of A.M.M. joined that organization.  The more we learn about the
history and the equipment the closer we come to the people we are portarying.
And if you have ever spent the night in a Fort with a hundred reinactors,
singing songs only from the time period (no country, blues, or rock) with fire
light, candles and stars you can for a minute or an hour step back in time.
Many people do not enjoy the history as much as others and may never want to
go all the way to the A.M.M. or the B.A.R. and that is alright.  Many can
enjoy the pleasure of both styles, we sure do, and many can only feel right
doing it as authentically as possible all the time and thats great.

But now to Pendleton #1572 and the 'Can of Worms'  I have to say that the one
place I really beleave we owe it to ourselves and everyone else to be correct
is at the "dog and pony shows".  It is a shame when people who claim to be
recreating history do not take the time and effort to be accurate in
portraying that time period to the public.  Granted you can not always do
"First Person" interpretation of a character at this type of event.  But even
if you step out of the time period into the 20th Century to assist the public
learn we have to be as accurate as possible in what we portray and pass on.
If you do not have an answer for an individual question don't B.S. say so and
point them in the right direction for research.  I've stepped into the 20th
century from time to time to say I would E.Mail them a source for information
and we have to do that some time to assist in the learning process.  The
better we all are at maintaining our historical accuracy the better will be
the people we camp with.  We all learn from each other and by example.

Hope no one thinks I mean to offend as I don't as I really enjoy the diversity
of wonderful opinions on this list.

Your Humble Servant

C.T. Oakes



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Matt Richards" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: drinking the wild water
Date: 04 Jan 1999 11:29:06 -0700

I just wanted to share a few thoughts on drinking wild water without
purifiers, boiling or the like, but straight from the stream......

I've been drinking creek water almost exclusively for the past 11 years,
whether at home or traveling in the woods. I'm definitely concious of what
and where I'm drinking but if it seems like a reasonably clean mtn stream, I
drink up.....and I've never had any problems except an occasional runny
crap. My understanding is that some people are far more or less susceptible
to giardia and such...and I think I'm on the less side.

I know a lot of folks like me who continue to drink wild water despite all
the warnings...and don't have any problems. Most of us seem to agree that
being careful not to drink chlorinated water is crucial. Chlorinated water
kills your beneficial bacteria that help you defend against giardia and
other contaminants.

I always try to drink upstream from beaver (though am sometimes surprised to
find them above), and don't worry much about free range cattle (even though
they do spread giardia), though given the choice I choose a spring if I'm in
cattle country. Always go for the smallest creek or spring around, and don't
drink from rivers.

If you are worried about it, I'd encourage you to continue using filters or
hauling in water, giardia really sucks as far as I can tell. If you do go
for it, ease your way in. Drink creek water from a known to be good creek
for a while to help build up your beneficial bacteria.....and work your way
in from there.

There ain't too much more satisfying then stickin your face in a creek and
taking a long  draught.....

Matt Richards
www.braintan.com






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parfleche primary sources
Date: 04 Jan 1999 13:35:15 EST

Don't have a primary source, but an excellent reference is "The american
Indian Parfleche" by Gaylord Torrence, University of Washington Press in
association with the Des Moines Art Center, first published in 1994, ISBN
0-295-97333-1.  It's a beautiful book showing origin andhistory, materials,
regional styles with many full color photos of designs, construction etc.
Pat Surrena AMM 1449



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Matt Richards" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parfleche primary sources
Date: 04 Jan 1999 11:45:55 -0700

>Don't have a primary source, but an excellent reference is "The american
>Indian Parfleche" by Gaylord Torrence

I have read that one a few times as well as many other modern sources on the
subject, but I'm really curious about how it was really done, based on
documentable methods.





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question
Date: 04 Jan 1999 16:08:25 -0500 (EST)

I am new to the rendezvous also but I have found that the ones I have
attended are pretty loose with the period correct gear.  As long as you look
the part it seems to be okay.  My gear is as follows:

Lyman plains rifle
knee high mocs or the homemade pair both have soft soles
an old pair of brown cotton kaki type pants that get tucked in
a muslin shirt I made, it is really not hard to make these
I have made the 3" belt that goes around the waist, the powderhorn, and  the
the possibles bag.
All knives and hawks are period correct
The hat is an old ragged low cut cowboy hat that has raccoon around it with
a horse hair tail.

My biggest concern is that if I do go to a rendezvous out of state I may not
be allowed to compete due to the fact that I make all my gear and it is kind
of my own design not a copy from others.

Any suggestions would be appreciated


Frank V. Rago






At 10:06 PM 1/3/99 -0800, you wrote:
>In a message dated  Sunday, January 03, 1999 6:31 PM, Barney P. Fife wrote:
>
>> You are welcome at a public
>> rendezvous as long as your heart and mind and attitude are in the right
>place.
>
>I would like to attend a rendezvous just to see what it is like. I don't
>have ANY period correct gear except a rifle that is a faithful copy of a
>late S. Hawken. Are folks like me welcome to come and look around? What are
>the guidelines?
>
>Munroe Crutchley
>Grants Pass, OR
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question
Date: 04 Jan 1999 13:24:50 -0800



Munroe Crutchley wrote:

> I would like to attend a rendezvous just to see what it is like. I don't
> have ANY period correct gear except a rifle that is a faithful copy of a
> late S. Hawken. Are folks like me welcome to come and look around? What are
> the guidelines?

Munroe,

The first one in your area that I can think of is put on by the Powell Valley
Long Rifles in May. I'm not sure of the date. If you remind me or I remember
I'll let you know as soon as I do. They put on a weekend shoot/rendezvous that
is open to any one. They do give an extra point for being "dressed up" but you
can make that point up with good shooting. I will be there at the one this
spring and would be more than happy to show you around. I will of course give
you better directions later but it is held on the east side of the Cascades
just south of Tygh Valley north of hwy. 216 between Maupin and 216's
intersection with hwy. 26. There will be trail walks and maybe a mountain man
combat course. Most any traditional style muzzle loader with open iron sights
is used and pistol too.

You will surely see about every range of dress and camp there is in this sport.
I will be on the far side of camp as you come in and most will know how I am.
Look forward to seeing you there. I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>
>
>






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: giardia
Date: 04 Jan 1999 15:20:32 +0100

I,too, often drink out of streams although I
usually try to find something just gushing out of
or down the hillside if possible.  I have gone
through periods of carrying a water filter, and
that is really probably the best (safest) thing to
do.
Almost 20 year ago I had giardia before it got to
be a trendy disease.  In fact, I had never heard
of it when finally diagnosed, after several months
of more or less painful symptoms.  I'll say this
for it:  it is a great way to loose weight ( I was
dropping 5-7 lbs a week at the end) and it really
cuts down on your necessary rations--soda crackers
and water is about all you can keep in/down.
So, unless you live somewhere that allows you to
encounter fairly fresh (ie just up from the
ground) water, maybe a filter is good.
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: giardia
Date: 04 Jan 1999 18:08:13 EST

If you really want to do some in depth reading on giardia and cryptosporidium
including some great information on the best types of filters, follow this
link.

Todd Glover


 <A HREF="http://www.gorp.com/gorp/health/wtrflfaq.htm">GORP - Water Filters &
Giardia</A>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Public
Date: 04 Jan 1999 15:15:09 -0800

Gail,

Been holding back to see if anyone was gona tell you about the same way I do
it and since that hasn't happened, here's my method.

For one, I too, quit using char cloth some time back and started making char
out of rotten birch wood. I think most any rotten (to the point it will fall
apart in you hand) hard wood will work as char.

My water/weather proof stash is in a flat metal can. Rather than seal the
can's edges up and have to break the seal each time I need to get into it to
strike up a fire, the can is wrapped in a piece of linen cloth that has been
saturated with bee's wax. The waxed cloth is quit waterproof and will reform
around the can readily in it's original shape. The bee's wax is used because
it is naturally sticky and seals to itself. It also will be somewhat flexible
even in extremely cold weather where paraffin wax would be brittle. So when
the folds of the cloth are rearranged around the can (kinda like you would
wrap a present or piece of meat with paper) the folds stick together and
return to being quit water proof. Holding the can next to your body ill
soften the wax quit readily too. A strip of the cloth can be used as an
emergency source of "fat wood" as it will catch a flame from the tinder nest
quit easily and burn in wet weather or after having been totally submerged
where other materials would be wet.

I will make this disclaimer now that I do not have any reason to believe this
is authentic. The materials are correct for the period and since being able
to make fire in an emergency situation is life saving, I find it to be a good
way to go. Remember that any char material will loose its ability to catch a
spark if it gets too high a moisture content so it pays to take it out and
dry it thoroughly periodically and surely before going out on a trek. I carry
this waxed cloth rapped can in a leather pouch on my person at all times as
it is my ticket to tomorrow. I remain........

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question
Date: 04 Jan 1999 16:04:51 -0800

Phyllis and Don,

Phyllis and Don Keas wrote:

> We have been off the list for a few days, so hope I don't sound like an
> idiot, but what is the description of a guernsey frock.  Not familiar with
> the name.

We are still trying to answer that one too. In a general way it seems to be a
knitted sweater like pullover garment with long sleeves and buttons a few inches
down the front to facilitate the putting on and the taking off. There is at least
one of what I think we are talking about pictured in a contemporary painting of a
mountain man do by (I think) Miller. Other than that I am as much in the dark as
you. They did exist though, and were probably not uncommon.

>
>
> Water - It would be the height of stupidity to try to drink outdoors
> water, especially here in Colorado.  Either take it with you or filter it.
> Anybody that wants to argue that one can pay the emergency room bill

I generally take enough water to drink if I can carry it in a boat or in a truck
or on a horse. When I go otherwise (which is most of the time) I do spend a good
portion of camp time managing my water supply. Before bed, I boil enough water to
refill my canteen so I have clean water in the morning. Any drinking in the
morning is from water boiled on the morning fire for coffee or tea (usually tea).
I try to drink as much of the previous nights canteen in the morning as possible
to hydrate the body. I then will boil up enough water to refill the canteen for
the day. If there is a fire at noon, I boil water for tea. That general  regimen
is practiced round the clock. You need all the fluids you can get and it does need
to be relatively safe. Depending on the source, I have been known to drink
untreated water but with care.

> .Food - We can't go camping five or six times a year and live off the
> land.  We have too many laws and anybody that waznts to argue this one can pay
> the fine.

There are several good articles in BOB series on period trail foods. You can haul
a lot of jerked meat, rice, corn meal, etc. with a very few spices to get you by
for quit a long time. there are wild edibles that can be learned to give a bit of
variety. Generally your diet is gona be monotonous for a while and we usually hit
the first greasy spoon we come to on the way home. Many of us try to trek where
and when we can hunt or fish. But it surely isn't necessary to kill a cow every
day to do quit well. (I 'm sure that is not what you meant).

> Medicines - I really can't see someone leaving his insulin at home for a
> week just to be more authentic.

My good friend "Digger" John has carried his insulin in a cute little leather box
for years so he can "shoot up" each morning. I have a small tin of pills that keep
me eating salty bacon. Haven't buried anyone yet.

> The one for me that is questionable is winter sleeping.  I know that the
> original mountain men chopped off branches to put under their beds to
> insulate them from the ground.  I would certainly not recommend doing that
> these days.  So what would be a reasonable alternative?

The first thing is to get past the idea you have to have down bags and a foam pad
to camp in the winter. Friends in Northern Idaho and NW Montana do their "snow
shoe" in January in 20 below temps. They camp in sage brush flats so there are no
fir bows to cut or hardwood leaves to rake into a bed. The lucky ones usually have
a brain tanned buffalo rob to wrap up in. All will have at least one good wool
blanket. The ones that sleep warm will put a couple blankets or a rob on the
ground and  two blankets or a rob over the top and sleep two to four bodies to the
pile. They share body warmth! If you are alone, you are not making that big an
impact on the forest to find a cozy little cove under a fir and relieve the limb
bound trees of a few bows to get you off the ground. Then sleep in everything you
wore during the evening around the fire that it took to keep you warm just away
from the fire. If you are dressed properly and have a warm head covering with dry
warm feet and your bed roll wrapped up in an oil cloth, you should be fine. If
not, you will wake up and rekindle the fire for a while. So you don't do this all
winter, just for a few days and nights. But you can do it.

> So for me, yes we do have to make compromises.  No mor that we have to,
> keep them under wraps as much as possible and only when we aabsolutely have
> to.
> Don Keas

There may be fellows out there that don't have to make any compromises. You and I
surely aren't one of them. But the fun of this is in pushing the edge of the
envelope. Leave the parts of the 20th Century at home that you don't really need.
I remain.......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: winter sleeping
Date: 04 Jan 1999 17:29:48 +0100

Capt Lahti is right about us tough guys up here in
Montana sleeping out in the snow with only period
gear when its well below zero.  Can't say that its
always warm and cozy, but you can certainly get
by, especially if you are as tough as we.
Anyhow, it is important (I have leared from
experience) to get something between your sleeping
envelope and the snow/ground.  A thick layer of
boughs is great, but if you cannot do that, dry
grass/weeds, sage, and small willows work too.
One of our favorite cold fighters up here are hot
rocks.  We always try to gather extra rocks and
heat them by the fire.  Then just before bed put
them into your bedroll.  Usually a rock about the
size of a loaf of bread is best.  The smaller the
rock the quicker it looses heat.  If it is REALLY
cold I have a rock or rocks at my feed, at my gut
and up by my head.  Maybe that is overkill but it
sure feels good.  I usually pack along several
cloth (like ticking) bags of a haversack size to
put the rocks in.  This is especially helpful if
you can only find smaller rocks, and it keeps your
bedding somewhat cleaner.  Wool or leather bags
are not recommended because the rocks will burn
through them too easily (or permanently fry them
in the case of leather).  Sometimes you have to
let a rock cool down some before it is safe to
handle (leather gloves are very helpful) and once
in a long while you get an exploder just like in
any fire ring.
We gauge the length and coldness of the night by
how many times you have to "re-rock"--ie, roll out
the cold rocks and rumage around the fire for more
hot ones.  A three-rock night is a long, cold one.
 If you anticipate such a thing, then stockpile
your additional rocks by the fire where they will
stay warm and you can reach them without having to
get up.
Hope this helps.  Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: drinking the wild water
Date: 04 Jan 1999 20:22:31 -0600

Matt,
  I was a dairy farmer for twenty years. I can tell you with certainty that
there are water born diseases which can very easily be transimitted from
cattle to humans through the water. The one that comes to mind first [which
I can't spell completely] is LEPTO.  There are many different strains of
this disease. I am not qualified to tell you all there is about these
diseases, but rest assured they are nasty. Also if you are in a area where
there is runoff from other ag operations, be aware that there could be
chemicals in the water that could have an accumulative effect. I am not in
any way slamming the Farmers of this country, but 30 or 40 years ago there
were chemicals being sold and used that were supposed to be perfectly safe.
Most of what was being used back then has since been found to be unsafe and
banned from sale. Some of these chemicals are still in the ground and can
leach out from time to time . I guess what I'm trying to say is, BE
CAREFUL. You only have one body so take care of it.
F.W.I.W.
Pendleton

----------
> From: Matt Richards <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: MtMan-List: drinking the wild water
> Date: Monday, January 04, 1999 12:29 PM
>
> I just wanted to share a few thoughts on drinking wild water without
> purifiers, boiling or the like, but straight from the stream......
>
> I've been drinking creek water almost exclusively for the past 11 years,
> whether at home or traveling in the woods. I'm definitely concious of
what
> and where I'm drinking but if it seems like a reasonably clean mtn
stream, I
> drink up.....and I've never had any problems except an occasional runny
> crap. My understanding is that some people are far more or less
susceptible
> to giardia and such...and I think I'm on the less side.
>
> I know a lot of folks like me who continue to drink wild water despite
all
> the warnings...and don't have any problems. Most of us seem to agree that
> being careful not to drink chlorinated water is crucial. Chlorinated
water
> kills your beneficial bacteria that help you defend against giardia and
> other contaminants.
>
> I always try to drink upstream from beaver (though am sometimes surprised
to
> find them above), and don't worry much about free range cattle (even
though
> they do spread giardia), though given the choice I choose a spring if I'm
in
> cattle country. Always go for the smallest creek or spring around, and
don't
> drink from rivers.
>
> If you are worried about it, I'd encourage you to continue using filters
or
> hauling in water, giardia really sucks as far as I can tell. If you do go
> for it, ease your way in. Drink creek water from a known to be good creek
> for a while to help build up your beneficial bacteria.....and work your
way
> in from there.
>
> There ain't too much more satisfying then stickin your face in a creek
and
> taking a long  draught.....
>
> Matt Richards
> www.braintan.com
>
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question
Date: 04 Jan 1999 20:23:29 -0700

Roger - Thanks for the info on the frock.
As for the water, I carry as much as I can also.  I have had the bugs to
get rid of and it wasn't fun.
As for foods, I too carry the ones you mention and more.  What I wqas
getting at is you can't have fresh meat all the time, even tho we usually
take some smoked or salted meats(pork) when on our week long canoe trips.
As for cold weather, the Brothers here in Colorado always camp on
President's Day weekend, in the mountains at 9 or 10,000 feet and it is cold.  We
don';t drink a toast ;to slick willie either.  Anyway, we usually get by
ok because we do this type of camping quite a bit.  But, others may not
get the chance to do it like we do.
What I was trying to say is this:  I and my Brothers try to do it as
correct as we can.  We don't use down bags or take other short cuts if we can
help it.  For water and medicines I AM saying compromise is OK.  As
screwed up as  this planet's condition is, there simply is no other way.
Anyway, maybe this will give some food for thought and start some pretty
good discussions.


Roger Lahti wrote:
>Phyllis and Don,
>
>Phyllis and Don Keas wrote:
>
>> We have been off the list for a few days, so hope I don't sound like
an
>> idiot, but what is the description of a guernsey frock.  Not familiar
with
>> the name.
>
>We are still trying to answer that one too. In a general way it seems to
be a
>knitted sweater like pullover garment with long sleeves and buttons a
few inches
>down the front to facilitate the putting on and the taking off. There is
at
>least
>one of what I think we are talking about pictured in a contemporary
>painting of a
>mountain man do by (I think) Miller. Other than that I am as much in the
dark as
>you. They did exist though, and were probably not uncommon.
>
>>
>>
>> Water - It would be the height of stupidity to try to drink outdoors
>> water, especially here in Colorado.  Either take it with you or filter
it.
>> Anybody that wants to argue that one can pay the emergency room bill
>
>I generally take enough water to drink if I can carry it in a boat or in
a truck
>or on a horse. When I go otherwise (which is most of the time) I do
spend a good
>portion of camp time managing my water supply. Before bed, I boil enough

>water to
>refill my canteen so I have clean water in the morning. Any drinking in
the
>morning is from water boiled on the morning fire for coffee or tea
(usually
>tea).
>I try to drink as much of the previous nights canteen in the morning as
possible
>to hydrate the body. I then will boil up enough water to refill the
canteen for
>the day. If there is a fire at noon, I boil water for tea. That general
regimen
>is practiced round the clock. You need all the fluids you can get and it

>does need
>to be relatively safe. Depending on the source, I have been known to
drink
>untreated water but with care.
>
>> .Food - We can't go camping five or six times a year and live off the
>> land.  We have too many laws and anybody that waznts to argue this one
can pay
>> the fine.
>
>There are several good articles in BOB series on period trail foods. You

>can haul
>a lot of jerked meat, rice, corn meal, etc. with a very few spices to
get you by
>for quit a long time. there are wild edibles that can be learned to give
a
>bit of
>variety. Generally your diet is gona be monotonous for a while and we
>usually hit
>the first greasy spoon we come to on the way home. Many of us try to
trek where
>and when we can hunt or fish. But it surely isn't necessary to kill a
cow every
>day to do quit well. (I 'm sure that is not what you meant).
>
>> Medicines - I really can't see someone leaving his insulin at home for
a
>> week just to be more authentic.
>
>My good friend "Digger" John has carried his insulin in a cute little
>leather box
>for years so he can "shoot up" each morning. I have a small tin of pills

>that keep
>me eating salty bacon. Haven't buried anyone yet.
>
>> The one for me that is questionable is winter sleeping.  I know that
the
>> original mountain men chopped off branches to put under their beds to
>> insulate them from the ground.  I would certainly not recommend doing
that
>> these days.  So what would be a reasonable alternative?
>
>The first thing is to get past the idea you have to have down bags and a

>foam pad
>to camp in the winter. Friends in Northern Idaho and NW Montana do their
"snow
>shoe" in January in 20 below temps. They camp in sage brush flats so
there
>are no
>fir bows to cut or hardwood leaves to rake into a bed. The lucky ones
>usually have
>a brain tanned buffalo rob to wrap up in. All will have at least one
good wool
>blanket. The ones that sleep warm will put a couple blankets or a rob on
the
>ground and  two blankets or a rob over the top and sleep two to four
bodies
>to the
>pile. They share body warmth! If you are alone, you are not making that
big an
>impact on the forest to find a cozy little cove under a fir and relieve
the limb
>bound trees of a few bows to get you off the ground. Then sleep in
>everything you
>wore during the evening around the fire that it took to keep you warm
just away
>from the fire. If you are dressed properly and have a warm head covering

>with dry
>warm feet and your bed roll wrapped up in an oil cloth, you should be
fine. If
>not, you will wake up and rekindle the fire for a while. So you don't do

>this all
>winter, just for a few days and nights. But you can do it.
>
>> So for me, yes we do have to make compromises.  No mor that we have
to,
>> keep them under wraps as much as possible and only when we aabsolutely
have
>> to.
>> Don Keas
>
>There may be fellows out there that don't have to make any compromises.
You
>and I
>surely aren't one of them. But the fun of this is in pushing the edge of
the
>envelope. Leave the parts of the 20th Century at home that you don't
really
>need.
>I remain.......
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>
>
>
>RFC822 header
>-----------------------------------
>
>Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with
ESMTP
>  (SMTPD32-4.03) id A7E1CBC00A4; Mon, 04 Jan 1999 17:08:01 MDT
>Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1)
>    id 0zxK0r-0006xD-00
>    for [e-mail]; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:06:21 -0700
>Received: from [207.115.153.32] (helo=mail1.mailsrvcs.net)
>    by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1)
>    id 0zxK0o-0006ws-00
>    for [e-mail]; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:06:18 -0700
>Received: from gte.net (1Cust126.tnt2.kennewick.wa.da.uu.net
[208.252.45.126])
>    by mail1.mailsrvcs.net  with ESMTP id SAA11963
>    for <[e-mail]>; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 18:05:26 -0600
(CST)
>Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
>Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 16:04:51 -0800
>From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question
>References: <[e-mail]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Sender: [e-mail]
>Precedence: bulk
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>X-UIDL: 909625456
>Status: U
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question
Date: 04 Jan 1999 20:55:34 -0800

Guys,

Sorry if I sounded like I thought you were new at this. I took your questions and
statements in the vein of you not knowing how to do it and you obviously do. I don't
think we disagree on any thing and I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: winter sleeping
Date: 05 Jan 1999 02:36:29 EST

In a message dated 99-01-04 19:28:23 EST, you write:

<<  Wool or leather bags
 are not recommended because the rocks will burn
 through them too easily (or permanently fry them
 in the case of leather).  Sometimes you have to
 let a rock cool down some before it is safe to
 handle (leather gloves are very helpful) and once
 in a long while you get an exploder just like in
 any fire ring. >>

The hot rock trick definitely works!  I used it a lot before I got into using
primative gear.  I used to wrap the rocks up in my jeans.  I figured if you
inlulated the rock a bit, it'd stay hot longer.  The above advisory about hot
rocks damaging some materials should be heeded.  One realy cold night, I
heated the rocks a bit hotter than normal & used more than normal so had a
couple unwrapped.  Next morning, my jeans were scorched & my nylon tent had 2
rock size holes in the floor.  We slept warm though!

I'm surprised no one's mentioned using hay or straw under the bed roll inplace
of the pine boughs.  Works good if available & the local rules & regulations
don't object.  Just plain tree leaves work well too if you have enough of 'em.
When using these materials & spending more than one night, "fluff up" your
"mattress" of straw, hay, or leaves each night because they'll pack down &
loose both their cushioning & insulating abilities.  I like to roll up my
blanket(s) / bed roll about mid day, "fluff" the "mattress", & let it dry out
a bit because it will definitely draw moisture which also reduces it's
insulating ability.

 In cold weather, I add side curtins to my fly -- I can't document them , but
they sure cut down on the drafts & hold in the heat from the rocks that I
carefuly place so they don't touch anything.  They also afford some privacy
when on family type group events.  I've quit wrapping the rocks since that
cold night long ago in the non-period tent that wound up with ventilation in
it's floor!  Ok -- someone's going to say I'm defeating the purpose of the
"reflector design" of the fly by closing it up & not just using a fire in
front of it.  True that works well -- to a point.  I've already had one tent
burn down around me at night, & I don't care to do that again.  Because of
that, I've developed kind of a fobia about going to sleep with open flames
close to my canvas, so now, it's hot rocks that aren't too close to anything
burnable.

Another cold weather trick is to dig a trench where you're going to put your
bed, put in a layer of good hot coals from the fire, cover it with about 6" of
dirt.  Wait about 30 min, make up your bed on top of the burried coal bed.
Usualy keeps ya warm about 6 hrs if you've used enough coals. Don't skimp on
the layer of dirt on top of the coals, or you'll have some uncomfortably hot
spots.  I've also built the fire in the trench & just scatered it out after it
burned down then burried it -- works too but it's advisable to take out the
big pieces of unburned wood & just use the coals.

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: winter sleeping
Date: 05 Jan 1999 03:45:08 -0600

   >Another cold weather trick is to dig a trench where you're going to
   >put your bed, put in a layer of good hot coals from the fire, cover
   >it with about 6" of dirt.  Wait about 30 min, make up your bed on
   >top of the burried coal bed. Usualy keeps ya warm about 6 hrs if
   >you've used enough coals. Don't skimp on the layer of dirt on top
   >of the coals, or you'll have some uncomfortably hot spots.  I've
   >also built the fire in the trench & just scatered it out after it
   >burned down then burried it -- works too but it's advisable to take
   >out the big pieces of unburned wood & just use the coals.
   >NM
      Sounds like a good idea,but it would take me 3-4 days to get a trench
dug using period tools!
 The damn frost is now 5 feet deep 200 feet from any traffic. just think
its -15 and I'm going to dig in a new manhole and associated pipe today ;-)
Sure do love winter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well

Why do we sterilize needles for lethal injections?

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: winter sleeping
Date: 05 Jan 1999 08:35:55 -0700

Ho Boys!

In addition to Boughs or leaves under my bedroll, I lay a horse blanket
over them as well. In snow deep enough to trench, If you dig a two foot or
more deep depression, and lay more boughs or other debris over it, you keep
yourself out of the wind. Snow caves and igloos (I've built one out of
snow, not ice) are good for extended camps, but take care not to work up a
sweat in building them, condensation on the skin is one sure way to freeze
yer ass off. On a similar note, don't kneel in the snow if you can help it.
Cold lower extemities, because of not taking simple precautions are the
most miserable I've dealt with. Cold feet and heads come next. The three
rock nights can also be eased by digging a couple of long fire pits on each
side of you. Careful that you dont roll too far one way or the other. Don't
overlook snow as an effective insulator. I've had six inches of snow fall
on me during the night and found I was warmer for it.

I've tried all these in the field and can attest to each ones merits.
different levels of effort yield different levels of comfort.

Barkin Dawg

Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin

AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party
"Aux aliments du pays!"

Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona
Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question
Date: 05 Jan 1999 02:49:26 -0500

On Mon, 04 Jan 1999 20:55:34 -0800 Roger Lahti <[e-mail]> writes:
>Guys,
>
>Sorry if I sounded like I thought you were new at this. I took your
>questions and
>statements in the vein of you not knowing how to do it and you
>obviously do. I don't
>think we disagree on any thing and I remain.....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>

Capt. Lahti,

i wanted to mention that i appreciate all of you taking the liberty of
assuming that the other doesn't exactly know "how to do it".  I myself am
a good listener to the goings on around the list.  sometimes i feel as if
the prominent voices are the only audience taken in consideration.  i
speak for a percentage of the list that enjoy thorough explanations to
the "how to do it's ".   i just want you to remember that there are
people here that may need good explanations and not assum that the
subject is fully understood.


Greg Bosen

PS this is not intended to be a flame!
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: winter sleeping
Date: 05 Jan 1999 03:02:40 -0500

>One of our favorite cold fighters up here are hot
>rocks.  We always try to gather extra rocks and
>heat them by the fire.  Then just before bed put
>them into your bedroll.  Usually a rock about the
>size of a loaf of bread is best.
>Hope this helps.  Allen Chronister
>


I remember at a 'vou someone had a metal box that he carried a heated
stone.  it was more of a item for a cabin.  he used it like a portable
heater.  he hung it on a latern pole.  my question is the stone. my
memory tells me it was soap stone.  i'm not sure this memory is truthful.
 is soap stone a good rock to seek out to use as a heater rock  or is
there any other rocks that you would determine as sutable to use.  you
mentioned exploding rocks.  the wives tale i've heard is to mever use
river rock around the fire.  the long period of being under water make it
basically soaked through and when you heat it the water boils and expands
thus the explosion.


Greg Bosen

This is my searching for gold and leaving two bits.

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: MtMan-List: staying warm
Date: 05 Jan 1999 10:42:39 -0700

On really cold nights, I plug into my wife, she's 240 volt
forget the rocks
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Public
Date: 03 Jan 1999 13:48:03 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_01BE371F.AF61F920
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hardtack I have used the tree fungus for lighting my mortar what I use came
from UP Michigan you get it started you have to put it in water to put it
out.  Dennis if you have some you can spare I would be willing to trade for
it.  Later Jon Towns

----------
: From: Dennis Miles <[e-mail]>
: To: [e-mail]
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Public
: Date: Sunday, January 03, 1999 1:24 PM
:
: Hardtack,
:  I have been sealing my tin with pine pitch  w/ a touch of wax (more
: pliable) around the inside rim. Quit usin Charcloth years ago, love punk
: wood and tree fungus..More handy..
: Yr Brother
: Dennis
: Ohio
:
:    "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
:           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
:   Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
:     http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
: -----Original Message-----
: From: RANDAL J BUBLITZ <[e-mail]>
: To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
: Date: Sunday, January 03, 1999 4:37 PM
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Public
:
:
: >Gail,  Most of our activities are out in the woods, etc....  Some of us
: >feel it is important to do a public event every once in awhile.  We
share
: >our skills and talents, in the hopes of keeping these skills alive.  I
: >keep my tinder in a two piece, press together , tin can.  At the point
: >where the cans overlap I rub beeswax around the edges, and the seam.
: >Some- times, this makes it hard to get the can open, but it keeps things
: >dry.    Hardtack
: >
: >___________________________________________________________________
: >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
: >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
: >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
: >
: >
:
:
------=_NextPart_000_01BE371F.AF61F920
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">Hardtack I have used the tree fungus =
for lighting my mortar what I use came from UP Michigan you get it =
started you have to put it in water to put it out.  Dennis if you =
have some you can spare I would be willing to trade for it.  Later =
Jon Towns<br><br>----------<br>: From: Dennis Miles <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">><br>: To: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Public<br>: Date: =
Sunday, January 03, 1999 1:24 PM<br>: <br>: Hardtack,<br>:  I have =
been sealing my tin with pine pitch  w/ a touch of wax (more<br>: =
pliable) around the inside rim. Quit usin Charcloth years ago, love =
punk<br>: wood and tree fungus..More handy..<br>: Yr Brother<br>: =
Dennis<br>: Ohio<br>: <br>:    "Abair ach beagan is =
abair gu math e"<br>: =
          DOUBLE EDGE =
FORGE<br>:   Period Knives & Iron Accouterments<br>: =
    <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>: -----Original Message-----<br>: From: RANDAL J =
BUBLITZ <<font color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">><br>: To: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"> <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">><br>: Date: Sunday, January 03, 1999 4:37 PM<br>: =
 Most of our activities are out in the woods, etc....  Some of =
us<br>: >feel it is important to do a public event every once in =
awhile.  We share<br>: >our skills and talents, in the hopes of =
keeping these skills alive.  I<br>: >keep my tinder in a two =
piece, press together , tin can.  At the point<br>: >where the =
cans overlap I rub beeswax around the edges, and the seam.<br>: =
>Some- times, this makes it hard to get the can open, but it keeps =
things<br>: >dry.    Hardtack<br>: ><br>: =
>___________________________________________________________________<b=
r>: >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet =
e-mail.<br>: >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>: >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO =
[654-5866]<br>: ><br>: ><br>: <br>: </p>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></f=
ont></font></font></font></font></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BE371F.AF61F920--



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: winter sleeping
Date: 05 Jan 1999 16:51:52 -0500

It is no wives tale that river rock can explode.  Be in a sweat lodge when
one goes off.  Lots of luck getting out without a scratch or two.

Linda Holley

[e-mail] wrote:

>  is soap stone a good rock to seek out to use as a heater rock  or is
> there any other rocks that you would determine as sutable to use.  you
> mentioned exploding rocks.  the wives tale i've heard is to mever use
> river rock around the fire.  the long period of being under water make it
> basically soaked through and when you heat it the water boils and expands
> thus the explosion.
>
> Greg Bosen
>
> This is my searching for gold and leaving two bits.
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: winter sleeping
Date: 05 Jan 1999 17:13:52 -0600

   >memory is truthful. is soap stone a good rock to seek out to use as
   >a heater rock  or is there any other rocks that you would determine
   >as sutable to use.  you mentioned exploding rocks.  the wives tale
   >i've heard is to mever use river rock around the fire.  the long
   >period of being under water make it basically soaked through and
   >when you heat it the water boils and expands thus the explosion.
Soapstone is used by Vermont Stove Co. to line their wood stoves with,once
heated it holds the heat for a long time! I've never trusted river rocks of
any kind,but BASALT,usually a black colored rock found nearly everywhere is
one of the best to use. In its previous life it was lava that has become a
metamorphic rock over the millenia.It's miserably heavy,but to quote
Whitebird,"It is one of the best Grandfathers to use in the Inipi because it
remembers how to get hot and stay hot." Most limestones and sandstones
"spall" when heated(explode) so avoid them. As a general rule choose smooth
rounded rocks found as far from water as practical for the location
 and you will usually be safe,but if a rock starts to pop or crackle,pull it
out and let it cool and forget that one. for a "flat rock" that is cheaper
than soapstone and weighs about the same just buy hard fire brick from the
brickdealer,not mountain correct that I know of,but its as old as the kilns
of biblical times.

Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well

Is Disney World a people trap operated by a mouse?

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: winter sleeping
Date: 05 Jan 1999 15:57:42 -0800



Linda Holley wrote:

> It is no wives tale that river rock can explode.  Be in a sweat lodge when
> one goes off.  Lots of luck getting out without a scratch or two.

Greg,

Been waiting for some one to suggest you look for a chuck of basalt or
solidified lava. It is a very close grained rock not too distant from glass and
is used around sauna stoves since it doesn't absorb moisture and has little
tendency to explode when heated.

There are other other rocks that can be used that may be easier to find than
soap stone. A friend carried a piece of soap stone into a canoe camp we do and
slept in a boulder field of basalt! Kinda like "carrying coal to Newcastle".
Just be careful to select dense rock and dry rock. Then be careful some more,
like Linda said! I remain....

YMOS
CApt. Lahti'

>






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question
Date: 05 Jan 1999 19:32:42 -0700

Brothers,

Just a note to add to what my camp friend and brother Don has said.

A very old method of keeping meat that I have found in many reference books,
as well as told by some old rancher's here in Colorado is; (before electric
power was available in the rural areas as recent as 1955, in several places
and one that I had lived in, only 13 miles from Loveland CO), So much for
that.

Take your fresh meat and fry it well done, then you can use glass cake pans
(even tin one's),

1) cover the bottom of the container with warmed lard (available at the
store in one pound blocks).
2) put a layer of the cooked meat in with a small space between each piece.
3) pour your warm lard over the meat, making sure that the meat does not
touch the sides or each other, 3/8 inch to 1/2 inch layer of lard.
4) repeat numbers #2 and #3 as many times as possible, leaving room on last
layer to be covered with lard. Cover with a clean cloth or plastic/waxed
wrap.

What you have done is sealed each piece of cooked meat from bacteria, now
when you want meat, just remove what is needed scrape off the extra lard,
leaving it in the container to seal remaining meat. The meat you are using
is warmed in the frying pan and the lard acts as a grease to keep it from
sticking.

We have used this old method for years and have gone from 20 degree weather
to 85 degrees in 30 days, and the meat was still in excellent condition. Get
this is was stored in the large tin saltine cans all this time. By the way
these can's with the paint removed make great food container for other
items, like flour, grains, etc.

Buck
Baker Party/ Colorado
_______________
-----Original Message-----


>Roger - Thanks for the info on the frock.
>As for the water, I carry as much as I can also.  I have had the bugs to
>get rid of and it wasn't fun.
>As for foods, I too carry the ones you mention and more.  What I wqas
>getting at is you can't have fresh meat all the time, even tho we usually
>take some smoked or salted meats(pork) ............................




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Marlis Simms <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: India Rubber Canteens
Date: 05 Jan 1999 19:55:24 -0800

This came from Swanney to me and I am sending it out to any of you who can
give him some info.  I will forward it to him in Alaska.  Thanks.




I know this is from a later time period than many of you emulate, but I'm
hoping someone can help me find some information.  The "Invoice of Sundry
Merchandise from the Rocky Mountain Outfit 1836 under charge of Fontenelle,
Fitzpatrick, & Co." includes a listing of 9 India Rubber Canteens.
Do you know what they may have looked like, how they were constructed, or
any other details about this item?

Take good care,

Marlis & Joe




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lisa Radwan Clark, DVM" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Mtn. man list RE:Handforged traps & trapmakers
Date: 05 Jan 1999 22:15:57 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE38F8.F81F5380
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Does anyone have information on blacksmiths that made traps for use in
the fur trade? I'm particularly interested in information on the makers =
Standish,
(worked for AFC at Michilamackinac) Peavey,(Maine) early work of Sewell =
Newhouse (Onieda Community NY) Watkins, or any other maker that stamped=20
there name on there work. I'd also like to hear from anyone who may have
traps from these makers. Since these items were such an extremely =
important
part of the mountain mans outfit, i'd like to hear what anyone has to =
say on the
subject.

                                                From the northwoods,
                                           where its plenty cold rite =
now,
                                                   Tony Clark

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE38F8.F81F5380
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Does anyone have information on blacksmiths that =
made traps=20
for use in</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>the fur trade? I'm particularly interested in =
information on=20
the makers Standish,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>(worked for AFC at Michilamackinac) Peavey,(Maine) =
early work=20
of Sewell Newhouse (Onieda Community NY) Watkins, or any other maker =
that=20
stamped </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>there name on there work. I'd also like to hear from =
anyone=20
who may have</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>traps from these makers. Since these items were such =
an=20
extremely important</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>part of the mountain mans outfit, i'd like to hear =
what anyone=20
has to say on the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>subject.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
size=3D2>          &nbs=
p;            =
;            =
             =

From the northwoods,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
size=3D2>          &nbs=
p;            =
;            =
       =20
where its plenty cold rite now,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
size=3D2>          &nbs=
p;            =
;            =
            &=
nbsp;  =20
Tony Clark</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE38F8.F81F5380--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: Fort Hall Replica Website
Date: 05 Jan 1999 22:10:33 -0700

>Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:48:05 -0700 (MST)
>X-Template: /home/users/d/drudy/public_html/mail.txt
>To: <[e-mail]>
>From: "Jacquelyn J. Alvord" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Fort Hall Replica Website
>
>Hi,
>
>I have just recently put a webpage on line that might be of interest to
you. It is the Official Fort Hall Replica Website.
>It contains information about the Replica, history of Fort Hall and the
region, Quotes from mountain men,missionaries,pioneers and persons of note
about Fort Hall, articles related to Fort Hall,the Replica, mountain men,
Native Americans,and southeast Idaho. There are also some recipes for food
of the era. It is the first website to address the history surrounding Fort
Hall in depth. I hope you have time to go by and take a look. It is in the
process of development and requires much more work, but you will get a
feeling for the overall plan. Will reduce the load time as we refine each
of the pages.  Thanks,
>
>Jacquee Alvord
>Chairman, Fort Hall Replica Commission
>Pocatello, Idaho
>
>Fort Hall Replica Site
>http://poky.interspeed.net/forthall
>
>--
>This e-mail was generated from the world-wide web; the e-mail address
>    "Jacquelyn J. Alvord <[e-mail]>"
>may be incorrect.
>
Dean Rudy   AMM#1530     Email: [e-mail]
Park City, Utah          WWW: http://www.mtmen.org



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Beau Stiles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Fort Hall Replica Website
Date: 05 Jan 1999 23:30:20 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BE3903.5C395960
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am thoroughly thrilled to see a site on the replica Fort Hall. I was =
born and raised near there, and have visited many times in the past 20 =
years. It is also refreshing to see, being that I now reside in Texas, =
and only have the opportunity to visit that region for 1 week a year. =
Anyone that hasn't visited should do so. It is very interesting, and in =
one of the most beautiful parts of the country!
Beau Stiles
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 11:11 PM
    Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: Fort Hall Replica Website
   =20
   =20
    >Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:48:05 -0700 (MST)
    >X-Template: /home/users/d/drudy/public_html/mail.txt
    >To: <[e-mail]>
    >From: "Jacquelyn J. Alvord" <[e-mail]>
    >Subject: Fort Hall Replica Website
    >
    >Hi,
    >
    >I have just recently put a webpage on line that might be of =
interest to
    you. It is the Official Fort Hall Replica Website.
    >It contains information about the Replica, history of Fort Hall and =
the
    region, Quotes from mountain men,missionaries,pioneers and persons =
of note
    about Fort Hall, articles related to Fort Hall,the Replica, mountain =
men,
    Native Americans,and southeast Idaho. There are also some recipes =
for food
    of the era. It is the first website to address the history =
surrounding Fort
    Hall in depth. I hope you have time to go by and take a look. It is =
in the
    process of development and requires much more work, but you will get =
a
    feeling for the overall plan. Will reduce the load time as we refine =
each
    of the pages.  Thanks,
    >
    >Jacquee Alvord
    >Chairman, Fort Hall Replica Commission
    >Pocatello, Idaho
    >
    >Fort Hall Replica Site
    >http://poky.interspeed.net/forthall
    >
    >--
    >This e-mail was generated from the world-wide web; the e-mail =
address
    >    "Jacquelyn J. Alvord <[e-mail]>"
    >may be incorrect.
    >=20
    =
    Dean Rudy   AMM#1530     Email: [e-mail]
    Park City, Utah          WWW: http://www.mtmen.org
   =20


------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BE3903.5C395960
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000>I am thoroughly thrilled to see a site on the =
replica=20
Fort Hall. I was born and raised near there, and have visited many times =
in the=20
past 20 years. It is also refreshing to see, being that I now reside in =
Texas,=20
and only have the opportunity to visit that region for 1 week a year. =
Anyone=20
that hasn't visited should do so. It is very interesting, and in one of =
the most=20
beautiful parts of the country!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000></FONT>Beau Stiles</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Dean Rudy <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>To: =
</B><A=20
    href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> =
<<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR>=
<B>Date:=20
    </B>Tuesday, January 05, 1999 11:11 PM<BR><B>Subject: =
</B>MtMan-List: Fwd:=20
    Fort Hall Replica Website<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>>Date: Sun, 3 Jan =
1999=20
    19:48:05 -0700 (MST)<BR>>X-Template:=20
    /home/users/d/drudy/public_html/mail.txt<BR>>To: <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><B=
R>>From:=20
    "Jacquelyn J. Alvord" <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR>>Subject: =
Fort=20
    Hall Replica Website<BR>><BR>>Hi,<BR>><BR>>I have just =
recently=20
    put a webpage on line that might be of interest to<BR>you. It is the =

    Official Fort Hall Replica Website.<BR>>It contains information =
about the=20
    Replica, history of Fort Hall and the<BR>region, Quotes from =
mountain=20
    men,missionaries,pioneers and persons of note<BR>about Fort Hall, =
articles=20
    related to Fort Hall,the Replica, mountain men,<BR>Native =
Americans,and=20
    southeast Idaho. There are also some recipes for food<BR>of the era. =
It is=20
    the first website to address the history surrounding Fort<BR>Hall in =
depth.=20
    I hope you have time to go by and take a look. It is in =
the<BR>process of=20
    development and requires much more work, but you will get =
a<BR>feeling for=20
    the overall plan. Will reduce the load time as we refine each<BR>of =
the=20
    pages.  Thanks,<BR>><BR>>Jacquee Alvord<BR>>Chairman, =
Fort=20
    Hall Replica Commission<BR>>Pocatello, Idaho<BR>><BR>>Fort =
Hall=20
    Replica Site<BR>><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://poky.interspeed.net/forthall">http://poky.interspeed.net/f=
orthall</A><BR>><BR>>--<BR>>This=20
    e-mail was generated from the world-wide web; the e-mail=20
    address<BR>>    "Jacquelyn J. Alvord <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>>"<BR>>may =
be=20
    incorrect.<BR>>=20
    =
<BR>---------------------------------------------------------------------=
<BR>Dean=20
    Rudy   AMM#1530     Email: <A=20
    href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A><BR>Park =
City,=20
    Utah          WWW: <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.mtmen.org">http://www.mtmen.org</A><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOT=
E></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BE3903.5C395960--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Fort Hall Replica Website
Date: 06 Jan 1999 00:38:31 EST

I love the site from what I've seen so far.  I had the chance to visit the
trading post right off the freeway a year ago when I went to Blackfoot on
business.

I wished I could have stayed longer, just like when I was back home this past
summer in Oklahoma.  Even though I was interested in history as a kid, the
interest is not even close as what it is now.

Visiting places like this gives me a feeling of wanting to go back in time
when history we read about today was being made.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "The Brooks" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: hot rocks guernseys and water stills.
Date: 06 Jan 1999 06:40:09 +1300

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0060_01BE393F.67814300
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


-----Original Message-----


>
>As a new comer to this group I am enjoying the various discussions. come
>from  Marlborough county in New Zealand. There is very little in the way of
>mountain men in NZ but there are a few of us that like that style of life.
>in fact a lot of people here still grow there own veggies,preserve their
own
>fruit and make their own cloths etc.We still heat our hot water with good
>old firewood and  we still have a well that we can get water from although
>we are hooked up to the town supply. We don't have any mountains close by .
>all our hills only range between maybe 6000 and 10,000 feet so we dont
>really qualify. However for what it is worth re rocks exploding. The
>indigenous population of NZ is the Maori people and for 900 years or so
>their traditional method of cooking was by hot rocks . First dig a pit sa 2
>to 3 feet deep fill it with wood etc pile up a of rocks around it and get
>them real hot. Sometimes this is done in or out of the pit. When fire has
>died down scrape out the bigger logs left cover rocks in pit with dirt and
>pile food on top of this suitably wrapped in leaves and such. Cover the
>whole lot with dirt and wait till cooked. The point being that their rocks
>don't explode as they are specially selected. And the trick according to
>Maori elders is to select your rocks in the moonlight at night and only
>select the lighter rocks that stand out from the dark ones. Not sure if
>American rocks are the same but maybe the same principle may apply. By the
>way we are talking about dry riverbed rocks. Re the Guernsey jerseys NZ
>settled about 1830 has no real fur bearing animals so from day one we had a
>high dependency on wool.In my area it don't get that cold. Maybe 5 or 6
>frosts a year at maybe 1 to 2 degrees cent. varies year to year. However my
>wife tells me that some she has several knitting patterns for Guernsey
style
>jerseys(frocks). if anyone is interested e-mail me with their snail mail
>address and I will post them copies if she can find them. Re water
>purification. I once journied with a guy who had made up a little copper
>still that he carried with him. I always thought it a good idea but was
>never very keen on the copper part of it and thought I would use stainless
>steel. Not correct but very safe.His basic idea was a 7 inch high kettle
>about 5 inch in diameter with a filling/pouring spout that he used a cork
to
>block when  distilling the water. The lid was  a screw lid and in the
middle
>was a tube maybe 3/8th.s The coil part, maybe 10 coils at about 4inchs was
>bent at right angles at one end and made to slide over the tube in the lid
>although I felt that I would use a peened over or crox tooled joint and
hold
>in place with a screw type nut. When he first made camp he would dig a
>shoebox shape and size hole in the soil, sit his still over it at on end
>leaving two little dog ears for draught. He would start a fire in here with
>little twigs etc. He would first boil it and make a pot of tea and then he
>would refill and keep it going as long as he could. He could boil an
amazing
>amount of water away with some very small fuel. The other end went through
>another cork with a very loose fit hole and into his canteen which was half
>buried in the ground along side but a distance away. The coil assembly was
>supported during all this by 2 cut tree Y supports and a good sapling
>threaded through the middle. It also had a handle opposite the spout.The
>coil and corks and other supplies were stored inside the kettle when
>travelling. Make sure it don't run out of water(make the receptacle smaller
>than the kettle) This gets rid of all lurgies and metals etc.I have no idea
>how much his throuput was but his canteen always seemed to be full. Hope
>that these ramblings prove interesting. Now a couple of points to throw
into
>the hat. Would a NZ MM dressed in the style of a NZ MM of 1830..1840 be
>welcome at an AMM vous even though it would not be AMM documented authentic
>or are AMM so rabid about their pastime that nothing but AMM rules count.
>and lastly can any one out there tell me what the breed is of the brightly
>coloured water snake that lives in the little water spring that is about
>half way around the walking track at the KINGS MOUNTAIN battlefield site in
>South Carolina. Also any clues to what type the big black snake that I trod
>on  (about 4 foot long) at the same site while I was trying to get a good
>look at the coloured one?  We don' t have snakes here in NZ> Also good to
>see that KeeWee(Kiwi) shoe polish tins are still doing good service for
char
>cloth tins...
>Cheers
>Big Bear(NZ)
>

------=_NextPart_000_0060_01BE393F.67814300
Content-Type: text/x-vcard;
    name="Cynthia and Graham Brooks.vcf"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: attachment;
    filename="Cynthia and Graham Brooks.vcf"

BEGIN:VCARD
VERSION:2.1
N:Brooks;Cynthia and Graham
FN:Cynthia and Graham Brooks
ORG:Maidstone Publications
TEL;WORK;VOICE:[phone]
TEL;WORK;FAX:[phone]
ADR;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:;;P O Box =
30=3D0D=3D0A;Renwick;Marlborough
LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:P O Box =
30=3D0D=3D0A=3D0D=3D0ARenwick, Marlborough
EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:[e-mail]
REV:19990105T172640Z
END:VCARD

------=_NextPart_000_0060_01BE393F.67814300--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question
Date: 06 Jan 1999 03:31:45 EST

In a message dated 99-01-05 21:37:00 EST, you write:

<< Take your fresh meat and fry it well done, then you can use glass cake pans
 (even tin one's),

 1) cover the bottom of the container with warmed lard (available at the
 store in one pound blocks).  {etc.}
 >>


This also works with fresh eggs.  Remember about a year ago when I was trying
to document pickled eggs?  This method came to light then, & it works.  Of
course, the fresher the eggs, the better when you "seal" 'em up.  I checked
with Dad, & he remembered doing this & said eggs would keep several months
this way.  Don't remember who came up with the period reference for this type
of food preservation.

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "The Brooks" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Fw: hot rocks guernseys and water stills.
Date: 06 Jan 1999 07:20:22 +1300

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0078_01BE3945.05C9F200
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


-----Original Message-----


>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: The Brooks <[e-mail]>
>To: hist_text @lists. xmission.com > <hist_text @lists. xmission.com >>
>Date: Wednesday, 6 January 1999 06:26
>Subject: hot rocks guernseys and water stills.
>
>
>>
>>As a new comer to this group I am enjoying the various discussions. come
>>from  Marlborough county in New Zealand. There is very little in the way
of
>>mountain men in NZ but there are a few of us that like that style of life.
>>in fact a lot of people here still grow there own veggies,preserve their
>own
>>fruit and make their own cloths etc.We still heat our hot water with good
>>old firewood and  we still have a well that we can get water from although
>>we are hooked up to the town supply. We don't have any mountains close by
.
>>all our hills only range between maybe 6000 and 10,000 feet so we dont
>>really qualify. However for what it is worth re rocks exploding. The
>>indigenous population of NZ is the Maori people and for 900 years or so
>>their traditional method of cooking was by hot rocks . First dig a pit sa
2
>>to 3 feet deep fill it with wood etc pile up a of rocks around it and get
>>them real hot. Sometimes this is done in or out of the pit. When fire has
>>died down scrape out the bigger logs left cover rocks in pit with dirt and
>>pile food on top of this suitably wrapped in leaves and such. Cover the
>>whole lot with dirt and wait till cooked. The point being that their rocks
>>don't explode as they are specially selected. And the trick according to
>>Maori elders is to select your rocks in the moonlight at night and only
>>select the lighter rocks that stand out from the dark ones. Not sure if
>>American rocks are the same but maybe the same principle may apply. By the
>>way we are talking about dry riverbed rocks. Re the Guernsey jerseys NZ
>>settled about 1830 has no real fur bearing animals so from day one we had
a
>>high dependency on wool.In my area it don't get that cold. Maybe 5 or 6
>>frosts a year at maybe 1 to 2 degrees cent. varies year to year. However
my
>>wife tells me that some she has several knitting patterns for Guernsey
>style
>>jerseys(frocks). if anyone is interested e-mail me with their snail mail
>>address and I will post them copies if she can find them. Re water
>>purification. I once journied with a guy who had made up a little copper
>>still that he carried with him. I always thought it a good idea but was
>>never very keen on the copper part of it and thought I would use stainless
>>steel. Not correct but very safe.His basic idea was a 7 inch high kettle
>>about 5 inch in diameter with a filling/pouring spout that he used a cork
>to
>>block when  distilling the water. The lid was  a screw lid and in the
>middle
>>was a tube maybe 3/8th.s The coil part, maybe 10 coils at about 4inchs was
>>bent at right angles at one end and made to slide over the tube in the lid
>>although I felt that I would use a peened over or crox tooled joint and
>hold
>>in place with a screw type nut. When he first made camp he would dig a
>>shoebox shape and size hole in the soil, sit his still over it at on end
>>leaving two little dog ears for draught. He would start a fire in here
with
>>little twigs etc. He would first boil it and make a pot of tea and then he
>>would refill and keep it going as long as he could. He could boil an
>amazing
>>amount of water away with some very small fuel. The other end went through
>>another cork with a very loose fit hole and into his canteen which was
half
>>buried in the ground along side but a distance away. The coil assembly was
>>supported during all this by 2 cut tree Y supports and a good sapling
>>threaded through the middle. It also had a handle opposite the spout.The
>>coil and corks and other supplies were stored inside the kettle when
>>travelling. Make sure it don't run out of water(make the receptacle
smaller
>>than the kettle) This gets rid of all lurgies and metals etc.I have no
idea
>>how much his throuput was but his canteen always seemed to be full. Hope
>>that these ramblings prove interesting. Now a couple of points to throw
>into
>>the hat. Would a NZ MM dressed in the style of a NZ MM of 1830..1840 be
>>welcome at an AMM vous even though it would not be AMM documented
authentic
>>or are AMM so rabid about their pastime that nothing but AMM rules count.
>>and lastly can any one out there tell me what the breed is of the brightly
>>coloured water snake that lives in the little water spring that is about
>>half way around the walking track at the KINGS MOUNTAIN battlefield site
in
>>South Carolina. Also any clues to what type the big black snake that I
trod
>>on  (about 4 foot long) at the same site while I was trying to get a good
>>look at the coloured one?  We don' t have snakes here in NZ> Also good to
>>see that KeeWee(Kiwi) shoe polish tins are still doing good service for
>char
>>cloth tins...
>>Cheers
>>Big Bear(NZ)
>>
>

------=_NextPart_000_0078_01BE3945.05C9F200
Content-Type: text/x-vcard;
    name="Cynthia and Graham Brooks.vcf"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: attachment;
    filename="Cynthia and Graham Brooks.vcf"

BEGIN:VCARD
VERSION:2.1
N:Brooks;Cynthia and Graham
FN:Cynthia and Graham Brooks
ORG:Maidstone Publications
TEL;WORK;VOICE:[phone]
TEL;WORK;FAX:[phone]
ADR;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:;;P O Box =
30=3D0D=3D0A;Renwick;Marlborough
LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:P O Box =
30=3D0D=3D0A=3D0D=3D0ARenwick, Marlborough
EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:[e-mail]
REV:19990105T172640Z
END:VCARD

------=_NextPart_000_0078_01BE3945.05C9F200--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Don Neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: single women
Date: 06 Jan 1999 10:05:37 -0600

Linda, Thanks for answering my letter it is nice to know you.  Maybe I
will get a chance to meet you at a rendezvoo. I love bead work. Once
again Thank you. I know that this is note a dating service list but it
is not intended to be just wondering. Nice to know that there is still
hope. Don Neighbors




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Birthday
Date: 06 Jan 1999 13:18:56 EST

Today is Jedediah Smith's 200th birthday.  May this great American always be
remembered.
            Dick



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "G. Pedro Kinner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Birthday
Date: 06 Jan 1999 10:30:56 -0800

Wasn't he with James Clyman away back discovering South Pass amongst other things. How
many things do you think we can come up with in a day. Happy New Years. Pedro in Lake
Tahoe




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Public
Date: 06 Jan 1999 13:38:03 -0700

I'm not sure we have any fungus or good punk around here, will trade for some
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 06 Jan 1999 13:48:55 +0100

I join with others who would buy or trade or
whatever to get some punk, fungus or similar
natural material that can be used for char.  All
the stuff I've tried up here (Mont.) either chars
but doesn't take a spark or turns to dust when you
open the char can.
Any takers/suppliers?
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Birthday
Date: 06 Jan 1999 16:04:31 EST

As a BIG Jedediah Smith fan, let me too say Happy 200th Jed! and may we always
remember him for his great exploits in spite of those who would try to
denigrate his accomplishments.

Todd Glover



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 06 Jan 1999 16:20:51 EST

The recent messages offering to trade for fungus or punk to use as tinder
since it doesn't seem to be available in the Rockies begs the question, if it
wasn't available to the mountaineers 170 some odd years ago, then what did
they use?  We certainly won't see tree fungus listed on any trade records.

Last year we had a lively discussion on this topic about number of fires
needed to be struck daily, weekly , monthly etc.  A point well taken was that
they probably didn't need to strike a fire multiple times each day. Some argue
vehemently that char cloth wasn't used simply because fabric was so costly and
valuable. I wonder about that.
When a shirt or scarf or pantaloons was completely wore out and beyond repair,
it certainly wasn't thown away, but likely could have been converted into char
cloth a little at a time as need arose. Even one worn out shirt or pair of
trousers would produce quite a pile of char. I have however used rotted Box
Elder wood with success.

Todd Glover



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 06 Jan 1999 13:37:27 -0800

Allen,

Did you see my post on what I use for natural char material? I have some
6" birch logs that have stood out back long enough that the wood inside
has finally turned to punk, in that it will fall out of the tub formed
by the unrotted bark quit easily. That is the kind of punk wood that I
have found to work. I have tried conifer punk wood and it doesn't seem
to do the job. Have you tried aspen or alder? Maybe even cottonwood. I
would be glad to send you some birch punk to try if you like. I doubt I
have enough to be a serious supplier. Let me know. I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Allen Chronister wrote:

> I join with others who would buy or trade or
> whatever to get some punk,




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 06 Jan 1999 15:33:55 +0100

Maybe the problem is not in the material (punk)
(punk is punk, right?) but in the processing of it
into something that will catch sparks and can be
used to start fires.
Any special treatment required that cloth does not
get?
Whether a fungus or something was available in "my
area" in 1830 doesn't mean I wouldn't like to try
it to see what all the excitement is about.
When I was a boy scout in the early
post-plesticine (sp.) era, our favorite char was
old cotton t-shirt.  Hang it on the end of a stick
and set it on fire--when it gets consumed by flame
stomp it out, and whatever is left is your char.
We didn't know any better but it catches spark
like a bastard.
Thanks for continued insight.
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 06 Jan 1999 17:49:57 -0500

You know, Gents.. I believe this form of char was available in the
mountains...ANY shelf mushroom is usable..I prefer those from Maple,
sycamore is nice, but I have used all types.. All worked, some require more
work to catch a spark is all. And punk wood is pretty much the same, In my
opinion...But I HAVE been known to be REAL wrong..<G>
So hell, let's quit jawin on it, go out find somwe "jacks" and try 'em..
Isn't that what it is about??

Dennis Miles
AMM 1622 Hiveranno


   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 06 Jan 1999 16:04:09 +0100

On the subject of the tender materials available
in a given area of the country, I just recently
read Sir. George Simpson's journal of his
inspection trip in 1823-4 of HBC operations.  He
was out to set a land speed record for the day,
traveling from York factory on Hudson Bay allthe
way across the continent to Ft. Vancouver and back
almost literally without spending more than one
night in the same spot.
Anyhow, at one entry he refers to their punk in a
fire-starting context.  Where did that punk come
from?  The shore of Hundson Bay?  Lake Winnipeg?
somewhere on the Saskatchewan?  crest of the
Rockies?  you get the point.  Simpson, and his
punk, moved around quite a bit.
Please, I'm not advocating that we all use some
exotic plant material available only in south
Florida.
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 06 Jan 1999 16:51:00 +0100

last message of the day on this--just looked at
the 1828 Webster's dictionary site that someone
posted on this list a few months back.  "Punk" was
a whore, but tinder led to sponge which led to:
"Pyrotechnical spunge, is made of mushrooms or
fungi, growing on old oaks, ash, fir, & c. which
are boiled in water, dried and beaten, then put in
a strong lye prepared with saltpeter, and again
dried in an oven.  This makes the black match or
tender brought from Germany."
I'm not sure what to make of all this, but it
appears that ca. 1828 fungi tender was highly
processed and was "brought from Germany."  Whose
area is that?  Were folks using imported
punk/tinder?
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 06 Jan 1999 16:06:35 -0800



Allen Chronister wrote:

> last message of the day on this--
> I'm not sure what to make of all this, but it
> appears that ca. 1828 fungi tender was highly
> processed and was "brought from Germany."  Whose
> area is that?  Were folks using imported
> punk/tinder?
> Allen Chronister

Allen,

Maybe the truth lies in the middle of all this discussion. There was, as
you point out, a "commercial" source of punk. If you left home to
explore, travel, etc. you took some with you if you had it. If you ran
out or started without, then it is reasonable to suppose that the small
amount needed for a relatively long period of time in the wilderness
could be supplied by the judicious use of scrap cloth/clothing. If that
source is no longer or was never available, there are many natural
sources to make functional punk from. Let's not make this more
complicated than it needs to be, or was back then.

I feel it is quit proper to make char from any material you might
reasonably be expected to have had at hand. If you've got german punk,
you use it. If you got cloth scraps to spare, you use them. If you know
what to look for you can get your char from nature and you use it. No
absolutes, just no magnesium sticks or steel wool please. I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 06 Jan 1999 18:19:43 -0600

Capt.
Cottonwood works like a big dog!!  Pine, too, but not nearly as good.
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----


>Allen,
>
>Did you see my post on what I use for natural char material? I have =
some
>6" birch logs that have stood out back long enough that the wood inside
>has finally turned to punk, in that it will fall out of the tub formed
>by the unrotted bark quit easily. That is the kind of punk wood that I
>have found to work. I have tried conifer punk wood and it doesn't seem
>to do the job. Have you tried aspen or alder? Maybe even cottonwood. I
>would be glad to send you some birch punk to try if you like. I doubt I
>have enough to be a serious supplier. Let me know. I remain......
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>Allen Chronister wrote:
>
>> I join with others who would buy or trade or
>> whatever to get some punk,
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Birthday
Date: 06 Jan 1999 18:43:20 +0000

"Having been so long absent from the business of trapping and so much
perplexed and harassed by the folly of the men in power, I returned again
to the woods, the river, the prarie, the camp, and the game with a
feeling somewhat like that of a prisoner escaped from his dungeon and his
chains."      Jedediah Strong Smith
Happy birthday Jedediah...........      Hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Birthday
Date: 06 Jan 1999 21:12:31 EST

join us in Jed's old stomping grounds and celebrate his birthday at the 2nd
annual Jed Smith Rendezvous at Lake Silverwood in southern California from
1/27/99 til 1/31/99.  plenty of firewood and water, good friends and fun.
contact me offlist for more info, or check
<A HREF="http://eddie.grrtech.com/rendezvous/calendar">Crazy Wolf's Calendar
</A>    its an invitation only event, so contact me ([e-mail]) or Ray
Glazner ([e-mail]) first.       yhs.  'Barney Fife'



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Birthday
Date: 06 Jan 1999 20:29:20 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE39B3.3D528520
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jedidiah Smith probably did more exploring of the=20
american west than any other man that has lived.
In 1824 he explored the Snake River and visited
the Great Salt Lake with Jim Bridger. 1826 found
him buying out William Ashley after the Cache valley=20
rendezvous with two other fellas named Jackson and
Sublette, then traveling to California via the southern
deserts. He returned in 1827 only to turn around and
find another route back to California. He must have seen
enouph of California because in 1828 he made a
trip to Oregon and most of the men with him were
killed en route by indians. The Hudsons Bay Company
helped him out by protecting him and his remaining=20
men and also recovering there stolen furs.
The Yellowstone Park country is where the partners spend
the winter of 1829. They travel deep into Blackfoot country
and trap the Snake River, travel over the Wind River Range,
spend time at the foot of the magnificent Tetons and adjacent
territories, and up the Yellowstone to the headwaters.
Jackson's Hole got its name on this trip.=20
In 1830 Jedidiah decided to get out of the fur business,even=20
though they had been very succesful trapping virgin=20
territory,and made fatefull plans to enter the Santa Fe
trade. He was killed on the Cimmaron Crossing in 1831.
Smith was one of those men that had to "see what was=20
over the next hill". He will always be at the top of my list=20
of all time greatest mountain men.
   =20
                                       from the northwoods,
                                             Tony

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE39B3.3D528520
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Jedidiah Smith probably did more =
exploring of=20
the </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>american west than any other man that has =
lived.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>In 1824 he explored the Snake River and =
visited</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>the Great Salt Lake with Jim Bridger. 1826 =
found</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>him buying out William Ashley after the Cache valley =

</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>rendezvous with two other fellas named Jackson=20
and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Sublette, then traveling to California via the=20
southern</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>deserts. He returned in 1827 only to turn around=20
and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>find another route back to California. He must have=20
seen</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>enouph of California because in 1828 he made =
a</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>trip to Oregon and most of the men with him =
were</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>killed en route by indians. The Hudsons Bay=20
Company</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>helped him out by protecting him and his remaining=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>men and also recovering there stolen =
furs.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The Yellowstone Park country is where the partners=20
spend</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>the winter of 1829. They travel deep into Blackfoot=20
country</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>and trap the Snake River, travel over the Wind River =

Range,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>spend time at the foot of the magnificent Tetons and =

adjacent</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>territories, and up the Yellowstone to the=20
headwaters.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Jackson's Hole got its name on this trip. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>In 1830 Jedidiah decided to get out of the fur =
business,even=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>though they had been very succesful trapping virgin=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>territory,and made fatefull plans to enter the Santa =

Fe</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>trade. He was killed on the Cimmaron Crossing in=20
1831.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Smith was one of those men that had to "see =
what was=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>over the next hill". He will always be at the =
top of my=20
list </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>of all time greatest mountain men.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>    </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
size=3D2>          &nbs=
p;            =
;            =
   =20
from the northwoods,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
size=3D2>          &nbs=
p;            =
;            =
         =20
Tony</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE39B3.3D528520--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 06 Jan 1999 21:37:43 -0500

Lanney...
 You got trees in Texas???
D


   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


Capt.
Cottonwood works like a big dog!!  Pine, too, but not nearly as good.
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----


>Allen,
>
>Did you see my post on what I use for natural char material? I have some
>6" birch logs that have stood out back long enough that the wood inside
>has finally turned to punk, in that it will fall out of the tub formed
>by the unrotted bark quit easily. That is the kind of punk wood that I
>have found to work. I have tried conifer punk wood and it doesn't seem
>to do the job. Have you tried aspen or alder? Maybe even cottonwood. I
>would be glad to send you some birch punk to try if you like. I doubt I
>have enough to be a serious supplier. Let me know. I remain......
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>Allen Chronister wrote:
>
>> I join with others who would buy or trade or
>> whatever to get some punk,
>
>
>







-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 06 Jan 1999 20:53:15 -0600

Yeah, we got a few trees here.  I collected a little tree fungus at my =
brother's house about 10 days ago.  Funny about coincidences, huh?  It =
was a different looking fungus from what I am used to.  I may split it =
with Allan and Jon and see if anybody can catch a spark with it.  I have =
better luck with charred wood.
Lanney
-----Original Message-----


>Lanney...
> You got trees in Texas???
>D
>
>
>   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 7:36 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
>
>
>Capt.
>Cottonwood works like a big dog!!  Pine, too, but not nearly as good.
>Lanney Ratcliff
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 3:44 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
>
>
>>Allen,
>>
>>Did you see my post on what I use for natural char material? I have =
some
>>6" birch logs that have stood out back long enough that the wood =
inside
>>has finally turned to punk, in that it will fall out of the tub formed
>>by the unrotted bark quit easily. That is the kind of punk wood that I
>>have found to work. I have tried conifer punk wood and it doesn't seem
>>to do the job. Have you tried aspen or alder? Maybe even cottonwood. I
>>would be glad to send you some birch punk to try if you like. I doubt =
I
>>have enough to be a serious supplier. Let me know. I remain......
>>
>>YMOS
>>Capt. Lahti'
>>
>>Allen Chronister wrote:
>>
>>> I join with others who would buy or trade or
>>> whatever to get some punk,
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: zaslow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 06 Jan 1999 20:17:40 -0800 (PST)

A couple of months ago, Ron Price (Wet Possum) and I were out on the ground
and we came across some old dried and rotted Yucca.  It worked great as
char.  So good in fact that once it caught a spark, it wouldn't go out at
all (this was the piece we tried out as an experiment.)  We took a whole
bunch back with us even though we had to carry it out about 3 1/2 miles.

Best Regards,

Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 06 Jan 1999 23:22:35 EST

amen jerry. dried yucca is, as the say, THE BOMB.  i sparked a piece of
lightly charred dried yucca, then THOUGHT i had put it out and set it down.
came back an hour later and found that i had left a rather serious burn on my
workbench.  the results could have been disastrous to say the least. you'd
have to dunk that stuff in water to get it out.  also, its VERY lightweight
and holds together well during storage/travel.    yhs,   'Barney Fife'



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Birthday
Date: 07 Jan 1999 00:40:34 EST

Don't know if everyone is aware of the Jedediah Smith Society or not.  They
have coordinated birthday parties to commemorate this 200th anniversary of
Smith's B.day.  Had one here.  Held it at the cabin built by Jim Beckwourth in
1854.  All together 177 students and adults attended.  Great success.  Spokan
is having one tonight.  Stockton is having a big shindig on Saturday.

The Jedediah Smith society can be found at
www.uop.edu/organizations/JSS96.html

They are also sponsoring a fur trade symposium this April called "Jedediah
Smith and the Fur Trade Era."  Many of Smith's relatives will be there for the
birthday celebration as well as the research papers.  David E. Weber (Author
of Taos trappers and The Californios Versus Jedediah SMith) is the keynote
speaker.

Membership in the society starts at $10.00 per year and includes a
subscription to their newsletter, "The Castor Canadensis."  Anyone wanting
more information can visit their website or contact me off-list and I'll send
information, brochure, etc.

Jim Hardee, AMM#1676
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA  95971
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)
[phone] FAX
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Belated birthdays, and an archaeology question
Date: 07 Jan 1999 02:09:20 EST

It is all well and good to salute old Jeb, but Kit Carson's b-day was in late
December
(24th ?) and I neglected to wish him Happy Returns, which I do now.

BTW, does anyone know of a good book about Bent's Fort OTHER than the David
Lavender book?  Is it possible to get the results of their archaeological
excavations?

Come to think of it, does anyone know where I can find resources on
archaeological digs on fur trade sites?  I'm certain many universities have
done such excavations, I just don't know if their results were published.
Thanks!



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Ted A Hart)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 07 Jan 1999 02:49:44 EST

Hell yes we have trees in Texas! :)  I live in Austin and there are alot
of cottonwoods, mesquite, oaks around here...you'll even find willow
trees near creeks and the like.  Out west Texas you'll run into what's
more typically considered Texas...the LLano Estacado..the Staked
Plains...more western...you'll run into Marfa (where the so-called lights
float) where it's more like a desert with mountains...almost like Santa
Fe...out in East Texas it's alot of hills and pine trees with an
occassional oak tree...down south Texas it's more mesquite and scrubby
trees...alot more shorter than it is else where.  We have everything that
USA has to offer although I think we need to work on our mountains :)
Need to make 'em bigger!

Ted

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 07 Jan 1999 03:24:40 -0600

   >Allen,
   >Did you see my post on what I use for natural char material? I have
   >some 6" birch logs that have stood out back long enough that the
   >wood inside has finally turned to punk, in that it will fall out of
   >the tub formed by the unrotted bark quit easily. That is the kind
   >of punk wood that I have found to work. I have tried conifer punk
   >wood and it doesn't seem to do the job. Have you tried aspen or
   >alder? Maybe even cottonwood. I would be glad to send you some
   >birch punk to try if you like. I doubt I have enough to be a
   >serious supplier. Let me know. I remain......
   >YMOS
   >Capt. Lahti'
AhHa Capt. birch punk for char and birck bark for tinder? Works for
me,except the humidity around here leaves me with little choice but to char
only what I need for whatever period of time I plan on going. Too bad I have
to go 250 miles for a big enough stand of birch to get my goodies!
     BTW, we must have answered the question about rocks at the same time!
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well

Is Disney World a people trap operated by a mouse?

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Preserving eggs
Date: 07 Jan 1999 08:13:01 EST

In a message dated 99-01-06 03:34:00 EST, you write:

<<
 This also works with fresh eggs.  Remember about a year ago when I was trying
 to document pickled eggs?  This method came to light then, & it works.  Of
 course, the fresher the eggs, the better when you "seal" 'em up.  I checked
 with Dad, & he remembered doing this & said eggs would keep several months
 this way. >>

Be careful, today almost all commercial eggs carry a bacteria that can be
deadly in young kids, the sick and the elderly.  I can not remember the name
of the bacteria, sorry.  If the eggs are keep cold, below 40 degree F, the
bacteria is kept down at save levels but if you store the eggs above 40
degrees this bacteria grows real fast and can cause anything from vomiting to
the trotts to death.  My wife and daughter suffered at one camp when we
ordered eggs from the camp store and they arrived and were not kept
refrigerated for several hours well waiting to be picked up.  We made the
mistake of serving them sunny side up and got sick.  With todays eggs if
stored them at warm temps cook them SOLID/OVER HARD or Hard Boiled.    Don't
need anyone sick and tieing up the outhouses all day and night.

Your Humble Servant

C.T. Oakes



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Soap Stone
Date: 07 Jan 1999 08:12:59 EST

In a message dated 99-01-05 11:18:51 EST, you write:

<<   i'm not sure this memory is truthful.
  is soap stone a good rock to seek out to use as a heater rock >>

Soap stone is excellent.   We keep a pile of them on the wood stove and
everynight in the winter our kids wrap one up in a towel and put it at the
foot of the bed to warm the bed and their feet.  We do the same thing at
reinactments, we hang them or set them near the fire then put them (wrapped in
muslin bags) in the kids bed rolls.  They usually stay warm right thru the
night even on 10 degree nights.  Sure makes the kids sleep better.

On cold nights I do what Joe does snuggle up to my wife.

<<On really cold nights, I plug into my wife, she's 240 volt
forget the rocks
Joe>>

I always feel sorry for single guys on cold nights.
I have purchased almost all of our soap stones at flea markets and yard sales.
Usually not to expensive.  The thing about soap stone is you are now carring
more weight in you camp setup.  But if you are not carring your camp on your
back this may not be a problem.


Your Humble Servant

C.T. Oakes



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Yucca for tinder
Date: 07 Jan 1999 09:16:58 EST

Anyone offering up Yucca for sale or trade? Sounds like I gotta try the stuff!

Todd Glover



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 07 Jan 1999 08:18:51 -0600

I usually call them shelf mushrooms and we find them on birch treess
alot.  I have taken them and sliced them and chared them as I do cloth.
Once they catch a spark they do not go out (my picnic table has a scar
as proof).

I do recall reading once, I think it was from a  Scandinavian source on
using these after they were boiled in the ash of the birch tree.  I was
always going to try that, but haven't.  Even though I have a birch log
on the porch to be burned.  After reading Allen Chronister definition,
maybe I will try it, probably wait till spring, hard to do this stuff
when it's -20.

Jim


  /`-_    Jim Lindberg                 |Les Voyageurs du Val du Chippewa

 { .   }/ 724 East Grand Avenue        |Flambeau Rivere Voyageurs
  \    /  Chippewa Falls, WI 54729 USA |Sweete water and light laughter,

   |___|  http://reality.sgi.com/jal/  |Until we next meete.  Go Gentle.







-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 07 Jan 1999 09:43:16 -0800

Hummm,

I'll bet them cottonwoods are bigger than a California redwood!
Bein' Texas an' all... :o)

Medicine Bear

Ted A Hart wrote:

> Hell yes we have trees in Texas! :)  I live in Austin and there are alot
> of cottonwoods, mesquite, oaks around here...you'll even find willow
> trees near creeks and the like.  Out west Texas you'll run into what's
> more typically considered Texas...the LLano Estacado..the Staked
> Plains...more western...you'll run into Marfa (where the so-called lights
> float) where it's more like a desert with mountains...almost like Santa
> Fe...out in East Texas it's alot of hills and pine trees with an
> occassional oak tree...down south Texas it's more mesquite and scrubby
> trees...alot more shorter than it is else where.  We have everything that
> USA has to offer although I think we need to work on our mountains :)
> Need to make 'em bigger!
>
> Ted
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John L. Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Belated birthdays, and an archaeology question
Date: 07 Jan 1999 13:22:25 -0500

Try contacting Kenneth Karsmiszki at the Museum of the Rockies, Montana
State University, Bozeman, MT. He probably knows more about the subject than
nearly anyone.

John

Dr. John L. Allen
21 Thomas Drive
Storrs, CT 06268
860/487-1346
[e-mail]


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 2:09 AM


>It is all well and good to salute old Jeb, but Kit Carson's b-day was in
late
>December
>(24th ?) and I neglected to wish him Happy Returns, which I do now.
>
>BTW, does anyone know of a good book about Bent's Fort OTHER than the David
>Lavender book?  Is it possible to get the results of their archaeological
>excavations?
>
>Come to think of it, does anyone know where I can find resources on
>archaeological digs on fur trade sites?  I'm certain many universities have
>done such excavations, I just don't know if their results were published.
>Thanks!
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Rod Pratt)
Subject: MtMan-List: Japanning
Date: 07 Jan 1999 02:23:31 -0700

Greetings,
I was informed that a gentleman, John Kramer who subscribes to your list,
recently discussed the process of making japanning lacquer. I am very
interested in this process (not just for tin but also for fabric & leather).
Could anyone (preferably John Kramer himself) assist me with this query, any
help would be most welcome.
Cheers,
Rod
"What's the World's Greatest Lie?", the boy asked completely surprised.
"It's this", replied the Alchemist, "that at a certain point in our lives we
lose control of what's happening to us and our lives become controlled by
fate. That's the World's Greatest Lie".
Paulo Coelho, _The Alchemist_



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 07 Jan 1999 15:09:04 -0800

Ted,

Ted A Hart wrote:

> Hell yes we have trees in Texas! :)

Gee Ted, they was just trying to yank your rebosa! Heck, we know you got
trees in Texas, got deer too. Bout the size of a big northern dog, from what
I hear. My brother-in-law, a displaced Texan, has been up here for several
years but wouldn't go hunting. Said there wasn't no sense since the grass was
so tall, a guy would never be able to see anything to shoot at. He was used
to shooting Texas deer in Texas forests. Finally talked him into going this
past October and he came back with a white tail buck that he was sure would
go well over 200 lb and with a rack that was 25" wide and 6 by 7 for points.
Told him it was a nice little buck but he should have waited for a better
one. Them trees you got down there are used up here for hedge rows so we know
you got em. You need to be a little less defensive. <G>I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Belated birthdays, and an archaeology question
Date: 07 Jan 1999 18:43:07 -0700

There is a good book on the digs conducted at Bent's Fort, but I can't
remember the name of it.  It is in the library and I will try ro remember
and get the name for you.  Really interesting stuff.  Showed all kinds of
things, seperatiing the different areas and years of the Fort.  How about
hard rubber buttons from the trade era?

DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants

EmmaPeel2 wrote:
>It is all well and good to salute old Jeb, but Kit Carson's b-day was in
late
>December
>(24th ?) and I neglected to wish him Happy Returns, which I do now.
>
>BTW, does anyone know of a good book about Bent's Fort OTHER than the
David
>Lavender book?  Is it possible to get the results of their
archaeological
>excavations?
>
>Come to think of it, does anyone know where I can find resources on
>archaeological digs on fur trade sites?  I'm certain many universities
have
>done such excavations, I just don't know if their results were
published.
>Thanks!
>
>
>
>RFC822 header
>-----------------------------------
>
>Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with
ESMTP
>  (SMTPD32-4.03) id AE3E47A0136; Thu, 07 Jan 1999 00:11:58 MDT
>Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1)
>    id 0zy9aC-0003uK-00
>    for [e-mail]; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 00:10:16 -0700
>Received: from [198.81.17.3] (helo=imo13.mx.aol.com)
>    by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1)
>    id 0zy9aA-0003t1-00
>    for [e-mail]; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 00:10:14 -0700
>Received: from [e-mail]
>    by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 0AKIa05309
>     for <[e-mail]>; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 02:09:20 -0500
(EST)
>From: [e-mail]
>Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
>Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 02:09:20 EST
>To: [e-mail]
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Subject: MtMan-List: Belated birthdays, and an archaeology question
>Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
>X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76
>Sender: [e-mail]
>Precedence: bulk
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>X-UIDL: 915555012
>Status: U
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: archaeology question
Date: 07 Jan 1999 21:06:02 EST

this web site is extremely interesting and may prove to be of some value
<A HREF="http://www.digitalpresence.com/histarch/furtrade.html">Fur Trade
Bibliography</A>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Singer - \"Spinner\"" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Keeping tobacco fresh
Date: 07 Jan 1999 20:05:42 -0700

Anyone have comments or ideas on how to keep pipe tobacco
fresh while out at a rendezvous or trek?  Seems like it drys
out so fast in this dry western mountain air if I put it in
a cloth or leather drawstring pouch, and a tin container is
awkward or heavy and doesn't work much better.

-
Scott Singer, aka "Spinner"
WWW Rendezvous Web Site:
     http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous
Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners
Web Site
     http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833
---






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lee Cardon" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Keeping tobacco fresh
Date: 07 Jan 1999 20:14:20 -0700

How about an oil cloth pouch and a small wedge of apple?





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Keeping tobacco fresh
Date: 07 Jan 1999 20:25:26 -0700

Scott,

A slice of apple kept in pouch with tobacco works very nicely.

Buck
-----Original Message-----


>Anyone have comments or ideas on how to keep pipe tobacco
>fresh while out at a rendezvous or trek?  Seems like it drys
>out so fast in this dry western mountain air if I put it in
>a cloth or leather drawstring pouch, and a tin container is
>awkward or heavy and doesn't work much better.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>-
>Scott Singer, aka "Spinner"
>WWW Rendezvous Web Site:
>     http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous
>Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners
>Web Site
>     http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833
>------------------------------------------------------------
>---
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Keeping tobacco fresh
Date: 07 Jan 1999 19:55:41 -0800

I see a slice of apple has already been suggested.  Probably the best.
I've also used a date or orange peel.  A tin container isn't heavy, can
be had in an amazing choice of sizes and like keeping char dry, you can
bee's wax the rim to keep moisture (in this case) in.  Keep a large one
at camp and fill a small one from it!

Medicine Bear

Scott Singer - \"Spinner\" wrote:

> Anyone have comments or ideas on how to keep pipe tobacco
> fresh while out at a rendezvous or trek?  Seems like it drys
> out so fast in this dry western mountain air if I put it in
> a cloth or leather drawstring pouch, and a tin container is
> awkward or heavy and doesn't work much better.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> Scott Singer, aka "Spinner"
> WWW Rendezvous Web Site:
>      http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous
> Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners
> Web Site
>      http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ---




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (JEAN LINDSEY)
Subject: MtMan-List: Pipe smoke
Date: 07 Jan 1999 19:58:53 -0800 (PST)

All this talk of pipe smoke, what we use is Kinnikinnick or Bear berry,
it grows in pine/fur forests, along the ground, most good plant books
will have a picture and description of it. We like to pick it at dawn,
making sure to leave a gift for the plants. We then dry it out good, and
crumble up the leaves, taking out any stems or extra things not part of
the plant. After the leaves are ground up good, we add some bear grease
to it, just enough to make the leaf pieces shinny. Close it up in a
small tin, and you have good pipe smoke. The bear grease helps to keep
it lit, and moist. And it is a cool, and not to bitey smoke.







-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bob & Marylou Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Belated birthdays, and an archaeology question
Date: 07 Jan 1999 20:58:10 -0700

Emma,

I think the book you are looking for is _Bent's Old Fort, An Archeological
Study_ by Jackson W. Moore, Jr.

Regards,

Bob Jones


>BTW, does anyone know of a good book about Bent's Fort OTHER than the David
>Lavender book?  Is it possible to get the results of their archaeological
>excavations?
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Keeping tobacco fresh
Date: 07 Jan 1999 22:04:13 -0700

put a little piece of apple in it.

DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants

Scott Singer - \"Spinner\" wrote:
>Anyone have comments or ideas on how to keep pipe tobacco
>fresh while out at a rendezvous or trek?  Seems like it drys
>out so fast in this dry western mountain air if I put it in
>a cloth or leather drawstring pouch, and a tin container is
>awkward or heavy and doesn't work much better.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>-
>Scott Singer, aka "Spinner"
>WWW Rendezvous Web Site:
>     http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous
>Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners
>Web Site
>     http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833
>------------------------------------------------------------
>---
>
>
>
>
>
>
>RFC822 header
>-----------------------------------
>
>Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with
ESMTP
>  (SMTPD32-4.03) id A5E026D012E; Thu, 07 Jan 1999 20:05:04 MDT
>Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1)
>    id 0zySCd-0005G7-00
>    for [e-mail]; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:03:11 -0700
>Received: from [198.60.22.22] (helo=mail.xmission.com)
>    by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1)
>    id 0zySCa-0005Fq-00
>    for [e-mail]; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:03:08 -0700
>Received: from [209.1.224.44] (helo=geocities.com)
>    by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1)
>    id 0zySCY-0000VU-00
>    for [e-mail]; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:03:06 -0700
>Received: from animas (hil-qbu-ppq-vty116.as.wcom.net [206.175.97.116])
>    by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA11301
>    for <[e-mail]>; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:03:04 -0800 (PST)
>Message-ID: <004c01be3ab3$d27fcb20$[e-mail]>
>From: "Scott Singer - \"Spinner\"" <[e-mail]>
>To: "AMM Mailing List" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: MtMan-List: Keeping tobacco fresh
>Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:05:42 -0700
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>    charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>X-Priority: 3
>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
>Sender: [e-mail]
>Precedence: bulk
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>X-UIDL: 915555040
>Status: U
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Japanning
Date: 08 Jan 1999 00:05:16 -0600

Rod,

At present I am extremely busy with my business and have little extra time.  I
will try and help as much as time will allow.

First, I would suggest you read the archive of this list which Dean maintains
on his web site to catch up on our previous discussions.  Then I will try and
answer your specific questions and dig out any particular recipes you may
need.

I do have many recipes for jappaning metals, jacking leather and varnishing
cloth.

One of the primary materials for japanning is asphaltum varnish which you will
find extensive discussion of in the archive.

Later,

John...


At 02:23 AM 1/7/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Greetings,
>I was informed that a gentleman, John Kramer who subscribes to your list,
>recently discussed the process of making japanning lacquer. I am very
>interested in this process (not just for tin but also for fabric & leather).
>Could anyone (preferably John Kramer himself) assist me with this query, any
>help would be most welcome.
>Cheers,
>Rod
>"What's the World's Greatest Lie?", the boy asked completely surprised.
>"It's this", replied the Alchemist, "that at a certain point in our lives we
>lose control of what's happening to us and our lives become controlled by
>fate. That's the World's Greatest Lie".
>Paulo Coelho, _The Alchemist_
>
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period tanning / Matt's reply to John's
Date: 08 Jan 1999 00:08:18 -0600

Matt,

Sorry for the delay in reply.

The reference I used is an 1829 American republication of an 1825 English
publication.  Still called bating.

John...



At 11:50 PM 12/17/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>From John Kramer,
>
>>From the same period I have recipes which include dog and pigeon dung used
>>with
>>water and sumach, several call for soaking in a fermented liquor of bran
>and
>>water, some with and some without oil, alum or tannin.
>
>This is really cool to hear of in an American context (are these recipes in
>an early American context?). These methods were very common in europe and
>were generally known as 'bating' (for the dog and pigeon dung) or
>'drenching' for the fermented bran.
>
>They are not 'tanning' agents, but were used after the liming process to
>further remove the mucus that inhibits the penetration of the tanning
>agents.=A0 A very typical process is: 1. flesh,
>2. soak the hides in lime,
>3. scrape (in modern times, split),
>4. de-lime (in plain water or weak acids such as vinegar)
>5. bate or drench.
>6. soak in tannins for bark tan or cod oil for an oil tan
>7. if a bark tan, then apply an oil 'dressing' of dubbin or tallow.
>
>The mucus I am referring to is found in all fresh skin, and has the=
 function
>of allowing small molecules (like water and nutrients) to pass through,
>while inhibiting large molecules (such as bacteria and unfortunately for=
 the
>tanner----oils or tannins).
>
>To remove this mucus is a basic step in any tanning process.
>
>Any kind of alkaline soak of the proper strength will remove most of it
>(such as a wood-ash lye, lime (either slaked or hydrated), or commercial=
 lye
>(sodium hydroxide).
>
>Wood-ash lyes were very commonly used by native american tribes when brain
>tanning, and I would argue that for brain tanning, the purpose was not to
>slip the hair so much as to improve brain penetration (the two earliest
>sources that describe native tanning in detail both emphasize the use of
>wood-ash soaks------George Catlin, and John D. Hunter). Understanding this,
>and the resulting experiments that Michelle and I did are what resulted in
>our book 'Deerskins into Buckskins'. It makes the brains penetrate far
>better and easier, and greatly simplified our tanning.
>
>After the hide is soaked in alkali, and that alkali is rinsed out in plain
>water, hides can be soaked in biologically active acids ---- which is where
>the dog and pigeon dung, or fermented brans come into play (no evidence of
>this in Indian tanning and not something that we do, though I would like to
>play with it). The bacteria feed on the sugars that are in any remaining
>mucus (this mucus is a 'muco-polysaccharide', the saccharide being the
>sugar), and consume it, further opening up the hide structure and making it
>easier for your tanning agents to reach the fibers themselves.
>
>These substances were particularly used for soft leathers as it supposedly
>really loosens things up. In modern tanning this is still practiced, but=
 the
>active enzymes have been isolated and can be applied in very controlled
>chemical situations (no need for anymore dog shit). Another material
>commonly used for this was beer dregs (another enzymatically active acid
>that digests sugar).
>
>>One oil tan receipt
>>makes extensive use of both quicklime and slacked lime in preparation for
>the
>>oiling which follows a long soak in fermented bran liquor.
>
>This is and was a common practice in most tanning methods for the reasons
>stated above.
>
>>I asked about the term "dressing" as all of the old receipts I've
>encountered
>>using this term only refer to mixtures which are applied to finished goods
>for
>>preservation or protection.
>
>Dressing commonly refers to the oiling of a hide to improve its
>pliability.....which is what tallows and dubbins applied after a bark tan
>do. The hide is already tanned, by the bark, but the oils make it far more
>pliable and soft.
>
>One of the weird things about 'brain' tanning is that this is generally=
 done
>before the actually=A0 tanning (by the smoke). This is partly the concept
>behind the 'pre-smoking' that the Dinsmore's do. In their method (also used
>by various Canadian tribes on their Moose skins), the tanning comes first
>and then the dressing...as in most commercial tanning methods.
>
>The challenge with understanding references to oils and tanning is that=
 oils
>are used for two purposes.......for both tanning and 'dressing'. Different
>oils are generally used for each. Cod oil is, and was, the oil preferred=
 for
>oil tanning (changing the actual structure of the fibers)-----it is
>reasonably safe (though not completely, because it can be used as a
>dressing) to assume that where-ever cod oil is mentioned in association=
 with
>tanning that an oil tan is being practiced-----, while dubbins and tallows
>were used for 'dressing'. In reading the historical record this can be=
 quite
>confusing for folks who don't understand this distinction.
>
>The properties of 'oil-tans' are very similar to that of 'brain tans', in
>look, feel and use.
>They can be reasonably inexpensive as it does lend itself to a modern
>industrial tanning process---- I think it is an excellent choice for folks
>who don't want to spend the money or time on brain tan, a far better choice
>than chrome-tan. Crazy Crow currently has a great deal on German oil-tans.
>
>I highly recommend 'Ancient Skins, Parchments, and Leathers' by Ronald=
 Reed.
>It describes all of this in terms that you don't need a leather chemistry
>degree to understand. This book is available at most major University
>libraries.
>
>Matt Richards
><http://www.braintan.com/>www.braintan.com
>=20
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Belated birthdays, and an archaeology question
Date: 08 Jan 1999 01:11:41 EST

In a message dated 99-01-07 23:06:27 EST, you write:
THANKS!!!!!!! :)
<<
 Emma,

 I think the book you are looking for is _Bent's Old Fort, An Archeological
 Study_ by Jackson W. Moore, Jr.

 Regards,
  >>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Bent's Fort archaeology question
Date: 08 Jan 1999 01:29:02 EST

Jackson W. Moore, Jr. wrote a book titled "Bent's Old Fort: An Archeological
Study."  It was published in Boulder by Pruett Publishing and the State
Historical Society of Colorado in 1973.  I believe it may be out of print but
a good university or county l;ibrary might have it.  (A recent out-of-print
book  dealer's catalog had a copy for sale for $60.00.) It has 143 pages,
photos, drawings, charts, maps, etc.

If you want the name and phone number of the dealer, contatc me off-line.

Jim Hardee, AMM#1676
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA  95971
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)
[phone] FAX
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Ted A Hart)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 08 Jan 1999 02:48:38 EST

<G> Well the deer are like rabbits...too many of 'em so they eat
everything up and stay small...literally...that's why in some areas there
are deer proof fences so that the deer trapped inside the ranches are
selectively bred to be big.  It's getting to be a really big problem in
Austin espically in the west and south where deer are eating everything
down to the stubs even in rich neighborhoods and they protest deer
hunting.....now they're talking about deer birth control...they won't be
able to get every doe!

Ted

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 08 Jan 1999 03:20:56 -0600

   >I usually call them shelf mushrooms and we find them on birch treess
   >alot.  I have taken them and sliced them and chared them as I do
   >cloth. Once they catch a spark they do not go out (my picnic table
   >has a scar as proof).
   >I do recall reading once, I think it was from a  Scandinavian
   >source on using these after they were boiled in the ash of the
   >birch tree.  I was always going to try that, but haven't.  Even
   >though I have a birch log on the porch to be burned.  After reading
   >Allen Chronister definition, maybe I will try it, probably wait
   >till spring, hard to do this stuff when it's -20.
   >Jim
Its Wisconsin Jim! give it a couple of hours and the weather will change!
(GRIN). It hasn't been too pleasant doing sewer piping this last 2 weeks
down here in the sunny south(Wis.) with -19 lows getting to 0-+4 highs
 all this week.
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well

If a cow laughed would milk come out her nose?

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kurt Westenbarger" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pipe smoke-Kinnickinnick
Date: 08 Jan 1999 06:59:53 -0700

FYI  and to stimulate discussion - Below is a quote for Terry Willard's
book Edible and Medicinal Plants of the Rocky Mountains and Neighbouring
Territories, p164 -165

"Another common name for bearberry is Kinnickinnick, which is a bit of a
misnomer. Kinnickinnick means smoking mixture. Uva ursi, [Bearberry]
though often a major ingredient of smoking mixtures, is usually just one
component of the mixture. Kinnickinnick components can vary from tribe
to tribe. Here is a typical formula:

Equal parts:

Bearberry leaf
Labrador tea leaf (picked in spring when orange underneath)
Red osler dogwood inner bark
Wormwood leaf (Artemisia frigida)
Chokecherry inner bark
occasionally inner bark of alder (Alnus crispa)"

I just thought it tinteresting
Kurt






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water purification
Date: 08 Jan 1999 11:13:25 EST

Boiling doesn't kill anything in the water.  There are a thing called
indospores, but I won't go into that,  no need for a micro bio discussion
here.  I'm in the medical field and believe me nothing is ever completely
safe.  We do the best we can and that's why water is tested often and
chimicals such as clorine is used in the water.  When it comes to water play
it safe Do Not Put Yourself At Risk.  Just a men ate bad meat in the war
between the states, some got sick some didn't.  Today we would all get sick
and most of us die.  Are bodies just don't have the same immune system.  It's
not exposed to the same microbs, Thank goodness.
                                    TrapR Joe



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 08 Jan 1999 11:26:07 EST

Was visiting with a ( geologist) friend just the other day and he was talking
about an outcroping of a stone he called, to  my best spelling, Gramamite.  He
said most people think it is just another coal, but it will light with a match
quickly and burn a blue flame.  It has a real high BTU.  He was saying some of
the old mountain men carried pieces of it to start fires.  Said the small
flame of the Flint and steel and char cloth would light it even when it was
wet.  Said it looks kind of like glass and with it you could put a little
liquid soap in your hand and it would desolve it.  Says the use it in makeing
shinkles as it looses its BTU ability during there processing.  Says most is
shipped to Texas.  I hope to find some and try it out.  Anyone know anything
about this?

                                    TrapR Joe



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Keeping tobacco fresh
Date: 08 Jan 1999 11:31:02 EST

Back while in the army tobacco was old and dry by the time we got it.  Now
this was chewing tobacco but I think pipe tobacco would be the same.  We
simply put a slice of apple in it.  It remoisen the tobacco with only a slight
apple tatse, and that wasn't bad.

                            TrapR Joe



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Grommets
Date: 08 Jan 1999 18:13:10 -0800

Just bought a small hunter's tent and was surprised to find grommets on
the fly.  I suspect they are inappropriate for pre-1840 and was
wondering if someone knowledgeable could comment.

Thanks!

Tom






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bishnow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 08 Jan 1999 17:35:51 -0600

Roger Lahti wrote:
>
> Ted,
>
> Ted A Hart wrote:
>
> > Hell yes we have trees in Texas! :)
>
> Gee Ted, they was just trying to yank your rebosa! Heck, we know you got
> trees in Texas, got deer too. Bout the size of a big northern dog, from what
> I hear. My brother-in-law, a displaced Texan, has been up here for several
> years but wouldn't go hunting. Said there wasn't no sense since the grass was
> so tall, a guy would never be able to see anything to shoot at. He was used
> to shooting Texas deer in Texas forests. Finally talked him into going this
> past October and he came back with a white tail buck that he was sure would
> go well over 200 lb and with a rack that was 25" wide and 6 by 7 for points.
> Told him it was a nice little buck but he should have waited for a better
> one. Them trees you got down there are used up here for hedge rows so we know
> you got em. You need to be a little less defensive. <G>I remain.....
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
Yes but when you burn our trees you have what is called
coals left to cook over. When I was up north when the last
whisp of smoke was gone so was the fire. In some places
we can legaly shoot 5 deer a season, that makes up for the
size.:)

Snakeshot



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: RE: Kinnickinnick, &Tobbaco
Date: 08 Jan 1999 18:26:20 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE3B34.638D5EE0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I've read that "Kinnickinnick" is the inner bark of the Red Osher =
Dogwood
tree and that the Chippewa ,(or Ojibwa) up where i'm from would mix it
50/50 with there tobbaco to make it go further.When they had no tobbaco
they made do with just the tree bark.

                                                      From the =
northwoods,
                                                              Tony

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE3B34.638D5EE0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I've read that "Kinnickinnick" is the =
inner bark of=20
the Red Osher Dogwood</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>tree and that the Chippewa ,(or Ojibwa) up where i'm =
from=20
would mix it</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>50/50 with there tobbaco to make it go further.When =
they had=20
no tobbaco</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>they made do with just the tree bark.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
size=3D2>          &nbs=
p;            =
;            =
            &=
nbsp;     =20
From the northwoods,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
size=3D2>          &nbs=
p;            =
;            =
            &=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp; =20
Tony</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE3B34.638D5EE0--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Grommets
Date: 08 Jan 1999 17:46:23 +0000

Tom,      No, the grommets are not appropriate for the time period.
Rings sewn into a canvas were used, so sew a piece of cloth, or just
stitch (wrap) around the grommet.   Hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (JEAN LINDSEY)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Kinnickinnick, &Tobbaco
Date: 08 Jan 1999 17:22:16 -0800 (PST)

Remember what Kinnickinnick means in some native language, "pipe smoke",
so what one person would call Kinnickinnick, might be something
different. We in the northwest have an actual plant called Kinnickinnick
it's scientific name is arctostaphylos uva-ursi. Many plains tribes
would mix the inner bark of the red-osier dogwood (red osier kind of
looks like willow, so some people would say that willow bark was used as
"pipe smoke"), with this plant, as another member was kind enough to
supply in an earlier message.  It's a good thing to know the scientific
name of the plants you are using, because there are so many "common"
names for things that one can be easily become confused, on what plant
is what.
:)
jean







-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Belated birthdays
Date: 08 Jan 1999 21:03:41 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01BE3B4A.5EAF0660
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

While at Taos during the holidays I paid my respects to Kit Carson at his
grave.  On that occasion, I felt the true meaning of the words "paid my
respects."

Iron Burner

-----Original Message-----


>It is all well and good to salute old Jeb, but Kit Carson's b-day was in
late
>December
>(24th ?)



------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01BE3B4A.5EAF0660
Content-Type: image/jpeg;
    name="carsong.JPG"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment;
    filename="carsong.JPG"

/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQEAAwADAAD/2wBDAAgGBgcGBQgHBwcJCQgKDBQNDAsLDBkSEw8UHRofHh0a
HBwgJC4nICIsIxwcKDcpLDAxNDQ0Hyc5PTgyPC4zNDL/wAALCADwAUABAREA/8QAHwAAAQUBAQEB
AQEAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtRAAAgEDAwIEAwUFBAQAAAF9AQIDAAQRBRIhMUEGE1Fh
ByJxFDKBkaEII0KxwRVS0fAkM2JyggkKFhcYGRolJicoKSo0NTY3ODk6Q0RFRkdISUpTVFVWV1hZ
WmNkZWZnaGlqc3R1dnd4eXqDhIWGh4iJipKTlJWWl5iZmqKjpKWmp6ipqrKztLW2t7i5usLDxMXG
x8jJytLT1NXW19jZ2uHi4+Tl5ufo6erx8vP09fb3+Pn6/9oACAEBAAA/APfVHzMck5PT0qrqlrNf
aVd2lvdSWk00TRpcRgFoyRgMPcV8omfVNDV1uL66uLqzmIjMkrMEMTHbgEnAyM7e+ccV9H+ANIvt
P8NwXus3E9zreoIs97LP95SRlYwP4VUEjaOMlj3rq6rX95Fp1hcX0+/ybeJpX2KWO0DJwB14FfLe
q63ffEf4hxT2Sz20N7OkFnFLKX8pB1kZckDGC5UcfXOT9F6JcyHSLCFLya73R/8AH3ONstwc8vt/
hGefYEAVBqF+tr9t1GWeXydPgKNs+6XJyVGfvHoM+9ZOly3CaHJeHzzd6hN5bGSQqNvVioycBRlR
jqevXNa+lMEkutRuJnFvZxkfMx25xuY++Bjn61wSapqGpSS6hdTTxy3TeZ5Jc4hX+FAO2BjPvmpF
uJ/+e8v/AH2aeLm5z/r5R/wM0n2i4P8Ay8S/gxpy3U5BDSy/99GnGe4/57y47DeaYZ7jIbzZCRnb
85yKDdXA/wCW8n/fw0gvLhgf38gPb5zSfa7j/nrL/wB9Ghbm5LHM0o9SXOKwPEJu2WOdZ5SiN8/z
ngetc99su7bUo5Vu5/LmGGG84Ldj+VXLiSZpYr3z5DIgKEluQrYzz/wEGrys9xFkzy7+3zmqi3c6
O8b3E4KcqS55HrVee6uHm2xzzKxGWJZsH/Ir1n4YX99qPhZxd3Jf7HcPbpjltgwVz9MgfQV3kZyg
5z7+tPqpdXkVpA8srN5aruLLk4XufwzWLfX66gq2FrcMJGQ7JSDslGP7w79/XjIrmdA8Q65HK0E7
JfW1oTb3kZJE0TDoyk/eXHOep+tdBevBc6tZT2d95V/CuCkuQk8R/hcdj6Hsex5FUvF13qFvNZT6
VMIrxXDPBK/3wOSo9cgEcex7UWOtfabm3h1COSJblTLG0TnATrncOhB7jseelQajc3sU32eS8dZ1
ylvcB9vmZ+7u7Z6KexPTqK5zVvFetRaKsMlvPFeCQCZoydoXP3lPcY6jqK3dFvre7hhulv5pGUYY
CQ8574zzXTeDdTl1Pw9BJd3ttd6iADeG3GFjkYB/Lx/sqyjnnAGa6CvlTx7ZtY/EnVrS3aW5L30b
qjZLM0hRio9eWxX1VS1538adX/s/wDNYxO63WpyraxbH2kD7zk4527VIP+9jvXPfBjwXY/2Q3im6
iEtzMZIrFsnbFCMqWUerENyRnGMYyc9dbqtha3Ed1cGG2OyGGSJmafyQOdzfwlmzyOeR3qhd2F74
mvrO2lzp3hq2Q+ZAGxJJIv3OeowAG9v5X1lF/d/b/LMUKReXbQsMbI+ucdicD8MU3xRI9l4Kgs1G
Zb+RUfcfuqTvc8ewPtk/hXIouFAwRgYwaeBknPJ9R0p22nAY9/ekVSwyRilycnApDx71EevX8PSg
528dKUHjG7p39aQZycZzUNwgkiZSFIIxiuJvYfJWWIkDyX3LjtWnAoniw2QrLjijT2+UozfOh2nH
tT76BpFEibd6j5QepqhFcRzYiB/fKfmXuK674c317ZeMbi0tZEa1vLcyPCw4Lr0IPbgkGvTdP1m3
Imh3Fr1ZD5sDNyvToT1GCMVpvf2oEjPMsYibZIGONpOOv51Rku4khtpbWSKW3kkKSJuHzA55Hv7d
6xrCOy1VrmCy1NoxZzGFrZ0AaJl5X347H04ridR8TR6Z4hnidBDJMm6JncYaVeqE54z2z3rdg1/Q
dRaMNqqWdxs3IzSr+oPUZ7VHq9xo81nBJqurWMU4YKs0U4wRjA4PTkjjtXJ2+tjQdfs5hrMc+kx/
PDKcMsfZ4ifxyP8A61dLc69pk97cg69Z7AAGhfaQ6EZBB/zzXO2fiHTo9WeZde86MN5pDKWKH7p/
AjqD9fWrUHjPQYbp4YLiCMybo5EUcRygk7h6oeefp0zWb8LtTvvC2qWdxrSvYaPq0Qt7CAcmeRpB
tkZRyM5YbmxkY7Yr6Br54tW/4Sv49CUIojTUTIuTuAjt1Iz+LKD+NfQ9Vby/t7EwieaOIyyBF3tj
cfQepr5/+J9+vjD4nWmj2rO8Nq8encMNvmSNmVl9wpA+q17xcWZstBOn6QsVr5cHk2/HyQgDAOPQ
D+Vc4BPDbaRb6XNFfWNw7Ld30rZLFQcuMcfwngcVlQSC5t1sbSWWe0BYzX1wP3l2Wbc20fwpnj3w
OwBO7HHvQIBt3ED8zWd4/cvqemQBuI45JSvHXKgH19a5lVGOMjHepByoFKPTjNAJB55p3ccCkOe9
Jz07DvUbLjI/X1puCN2KMYGT1NPUhgQBk+g6011yDxmuX1WDZqDrgESx5x+lVtPbNoig4IGD+FOu
Fa0nF10jY4f69q0N4miBGceorJvLeEvli4kA4dRzimaQzG7tmgv7i2cNgXEJG9O3GQa7C58PS3Fx
E9z4n19sDaCxVCxB6hgoyBV9tI8Oa151s2ravd3jxrume7YbwueGxgevaqb/AA60KTT1vI0vvspB
Ln7dIHRkPJAzyQM1atfh54bt7e21W4e41AXLYacTSEzIeFZ8HqPWqfir4b+GbXRVu7fTp7g2+2Vp
hKzGSMnkE56jP6VmP4S8PiWOMaGvkgbobqNjl0PZh7frUsnhbw7a28ptdPinwN+Bljkc9Dxmqok0
WaW0trWyS2a4JE8O3auQOOKkttN0e5sLm4+wW6mFwhyg79D+dTWQsrD7VPbWUCyRhcAIBu45+uav
WWjadfzR6obK1MUY3RSovzRqeGRh7c/5FczqULp4f0XWLl2vNTnImHmt+7hijP7qJE+6Byucd8+t
em+DfGGv6h4dlGp6Sy3tvaGVbqWZVjuX5J4HKr0rx7wf4jOmeOtN1aS3kuLia4eKSO3ICu02Rxnj
AYivoOfWNUFzLHbw6cduAqyXDZH1wP5Vwep6z4pe68y9/sVvLn3Qna58odOD6cjnqcGuD8MLJd/E
rT7eCSIT/anne9kUsGZVZiSvHJz68Z9q9xv43vdDuNM1GcX8syCaR7dDCgjL8DhjwMc884NZXiK8
QGx8OadFHFEIVe4aMYEEQxsjUDgFu/8Asg+op9oixqFUcLwBjoK1rQebe28fTL7un93muZ8Xzef4
rmGci3hSPtxnLH8ayB06048N14pUJ9AB0FOIIPzAH6dqB070Hp1zUZcg4AH40EKR2/E03I/hVj7k
cfhSHFCnDZHHvUjYI3D8a57XExLFL0GCvHesmxGxpkPUOT+BrRKiSBkY4DDFUbcNpwW1dnkiYfLJ
3B96tMYyu5z0H3j6Vn7ds7NHj1BXpmtrTb651Z1jOoySi3OGjkjJCH6jpW/JK01q4gLxSRgrzH82
R2HqDWfa318+j/6NLItumSYPK4VgDn8+ar6frVxp2n2jWkdzCFjaQxbgYSW+Y9frT5tZ16bRnW1e
K1XLSHJ3CRfTB4HFY0Go6rHYw3q5FuGH7z+EA8YYdutaV1Zzxxx3DXYhulcEuBgOM4OfXiuf8SxT
Q+IdPZrlZGQsmF+U47j8auszrbyW7lyodQ+4YLLn5T+HFTyW10NchS0uGR3Kko3IY+v0Nakeqmy1
hobiIWx83y51RvlQvyCR3BP5ZFcBqWpXUw0qGWc/Y7aHyoYl9M8sfc1u6bNrMusmK/kvMJbOBAym
NY4dvQ9ueOK4prkw6xFNCu3yrhJF9cgivbJtegZ3lXY1u3Jlxx+Fc9r3iCFbW4j2YiVMIc8sT2x2
rB8CX9rouvS6xewtK8MDLbxIOWkchQB6k9Pxr3jVdRtfD+hwS3UQW4dUT7KjAmWQjAT/AHQc57YB
Ncxp6TM0lxdNvvLhvMndRjc+McegA4A9q24FAAzzWrpKeZqJcYxHHzz3J/8ArGuAvpvtesaheZBS
a4baeOVHyr09lqIAgcdPWlPXr+HpT1U+uRQflx0HtSAsDyQDjoacGXGB1ppHPQ0xWQPiR9q9vf2x
T924ZGcdgRTTgjPFR8ds0gYA4BrP1uMPYF8E7WB4rnYzsvSc/fXPHTIrTTawBxg4/Oi4TfB8wBHs
KzI5jtILbkHGdvWo57jMyqsfA43jpXS+EryJZRBhdzyqGB/iBIAx9DXQysI7+8tuWW3nKMMcjOCP
wrPs7ySEyyxTJGVmkQAgEPg9x6/4VETEugQuwAhFuGaTsCf/AK9ZeiQ3F3ok16qyxkq6glco2Mg4
9M4qHQ4G/wCETmluJhHb3Fk7x7Tw5UjIIPIOTWrJqXm6HG6WYlUwAvG2B/DziuK8Z2vleKrKaNwq
3SJJGOg6AH9Qa37q73WjzW1pJcyCMebHbpvZdo5bb3GOT6damudW+zXcmIHAxFdRuBnaoOGAHuDm
qnifU01C+WWziNwJtq/LnJH/ANauV1rQrrw6NOe9v4XmuVkdbaMZ8kIcZb6nNdst74vvdHS/u309
bWWFwoRSXYEcknuev5+1eTy4ErOowob5R6CvYNBltLvw85uUlZhBuUgfKpA4JP8AnpXA+JnKIkIl
EhZuOOQPeuk+HWjQ6l4hszfy+Vp1mn9oysTgSPGwEYJ7AMc++Md69AvvEv8Awkk0UyQNDYKzOskq
EOSPlUew6n6nHY1btsHDA5HtWnADyc1pWtzFp2hX+oz8RLuIIHLADAH4tmvOrWMxWsUZ+8FGcDAz
3qbvnqPSlU/xZz7UN8zZ3c+gpD16j6D1o79M/wBKCMN/LFKMsMAj3PpTWxnkA+hpRxxzTG+uB6+t
N570jdORg1E8Xn28kTYbcCBXGSxtAkb4+eJtrfTof5Vq28m7njdjFNuJjGhEqtsbjcOx9Kr4iEYX
IyRwwqmgcbo3xhTx7+9T2dwLHVLO6JxHFMjSYXPyhsn8OP09q9BWaVtR8QTx/wBnG3uJFdbppQCA
VGAV7jjqP/18faM0vhjVlgk086jazb2ZJMlkznC+vBxj6VSsbrUjoxii1OxaFpGjeG5UggkkhSPb
mtnwzd62NBuNLa60tBaS4lV3YZB4BVuhHFcfYf2tLNt0+WJ7Y3DwNayI5w2CSFKgjacdR/s1esF1
DW7BrqDU2tRDHtntXgIzjIPPr1qPxpCj2fhHUQkot3t2glwhBV0wQSOxIyfwq34dtr6WWTWtJ1FI
BYu5YSqRkg/KeRyD0I9DXUz6heNqUhjFr9vtjHNOuw7V3t8yj2I7fQ+1YshvrPxBqf8AxLAn2S4V
xtXcp3tnA9vmzn2rnPEHgu68PKkt0Zp7ya8kS4uWU+Wx2B+CevJP5Gt6C4mb4Yl1icPbbA7nhY0J
wN3uRjA9xXn62wl0jUL53AMDRhV9cmvYPA2kXVz4W+xLazTgKyTyRsBscrkKMnqMg/jXmnjIeX4n
lsbONm+zbLdIhlmMmBlfxOR+Ne9+DPCkvh/SHTUmjlu7oxqYnwQkaHOOOD8xZvxA7VR1C0is9ev4
IEHk7w6rnIBYbj345J4qxbqSOpOOx6CrkjvBaSyoMyAYQYzlugH4nAo8ZTJaaFp+iiRzJOylsjqk
eCScf7W2uU7470pGBjv6Un3f4c5609UzzTGj+YnmheTzn8aHjWRWVlYq390kE/jUhZ2JO0AemAKa
/J6/iKazCmhgRgfjSEY6dfSkbBX37mo8OHUqwUA/MMda5nWLcJfzKQfKuF3A+/Q/rzUOnTHyVViQ
8fysD7Vp4EilSMjvmqTWKR5MA8v1Uc/pWXmX7Y7ElQqhSvXafrUuY33byGA9O9dd8OfEOkpfJ4Y1
61ty0r7tMuJUBDAjmIk9COMdjnoOM+qwaNo8ct40On2iSbsswhAwducnisfwPFZap4Stp5La1mn3
yLM/ljltx/mMVt6fZWIh3W9nbKyu6EBB6nI4rN8Pyi3vtTs7OC3GnwrHLBHEu0ozA7lPYdBWpH5k
+nGUWkKmWIsyOepx3xXG+NJZbTRfDt5FZQtcNeRRYI4UEcg+vSur1SJbLTJ5Y9Oik2KCVjwCenNL
rI3aHeyiKPebZn2txyFyOfrVTT7ya48MaPeXyRtLOkHnNjHzEDJx9a4r4sx3P9iRyl38u31JC27A
zvQrxj0yetcJb6j9r+HXiraCkavZApxgEYXPrztFcfaxGXSL9SvysoKn6V7n8Gr/AO3+H9avXLRp
9uZ9m7gfIpJ/GuA+GvhiTxp41m8QXQaPSrW+a5Dd7mbcWVEPTAwC2PYd8j0jxhPcT+KDFb3rxpbx
IWjXpvJ3HPrwE4Pp71Ws95LvKzvK77pJjz5jHqa27ZMqOK0bK2+2anFEQRHBidyPUH5B+eT+Fcpr
t9/aviW7uBIHht/9GtiCCCBjzCP+B8H121SUEMM0rctwOelGMn7x96kXjgjg0hXHGfzpu055zThk
HqaazY6DH1qPzB6Z+lIxBX7p/rScZ4GKDjtTc5o7HOazNaszc2e5OZoTvT3GOa5tZBCyXByEfCyZ
6D0J/QVsQsNo+n51LweOnsOtZ1wipKzbQMDkgVV+xpNDmRSzOM5x3qhdWK3Vssclw3mH5omBw8TD
p+uK9A8K+PTfeF9b0PxLfBdcitJEicvs+1RhCAVbu45z3PB9a7b4b2cGm+ANL8i3K+fGryBTnLMB
ljn/ADxXSWkKWrSpBFhWnJcDtkda5LwYHi8XeNYvJ2QG+Rt27oSnPHoa6u3xBZxxKu2ERkBt3Cf7
P+FcF4+vDDrfgwPKsdhJcMZQzAKzBQFP6n867+5yYJI2x5QTcrZ645waw/HMs0fgfWnHyKtqXjkR
sEN6VLoqGTwbo6SngW8Do+e+BXMfFGWFvCE5eEyTJe2txIg/hywGSO44IHqfpXklu9wbDxJZnaLV
40mnU9QySHaPwzz9Kz9IuLdPBuuGXYZmlhSHPXB3Zx6+9d58HYLnXPDHifTLG68mO4eGOSXBwqup
EhT/AG9oIHvg13HiPWZfDstnpHha0sjLBD5cju25LGLACrtHc8Hk8479sK1WTLzXExmupn8yeYjG
9j3+mMADsAB2rbtbcttbJX1HrWpuW3i8xz8q8ADqxJ4A9ycAD3p2rXUnhvwxKwK/2zqDbFXOcOR2
/wBlFyfTj3rjbW3S1to7dFxGgwM4yf8AP881K3Tvz6U3JA4+nFOBI+Xj+tCqUyBkg+pzg/4U5Mbe
eo/WmkkHoOe/ekLMvAP/AOqhmyMYpuQTmlPXPOPamkY7cVHtYS9eD1pxXHBOT2ppXn5uvf2qPb6b
a5rVLIW1yQVPkT5wpPQ9x/WobCYxH7PKxMiD5WP8S+v19a1CwbGDyOKhdQykEZ9ahSMKOct6YNZF
3DEmouXXBYZDg9CeoqG+sLa+WMTRDzEAEcgPT3zXdfD74lWfh8r4b8SyG2QEC1vC26LHQIxH3fqe
PXFeq2zw6ZdbZ7pnN/cHySzcZ25Cg+mM1znguMW/i7xpbAyM5vEfcxPO5CcD2GfyrprO0jg0lLAI
NjI2M8jqc/8A1q86+Iuy11rwTEqJ9lEjKqHnAIUYI9MV6RPbQPavZtGTC8RK+m3H3fr/AErnfHsC
N8N9YtY2ZQloHHHbIP8ASp9K23PgPSUZcmK2tpNqnr0xj2ODXCeKPH/hbWNBuxY3UrXtzJbkq1u4
OEk3MPmXACjP45rz/wAVXVnJqWoz6ZdJaaXcsWBeMr5qdeARk5bP1q/4A+FN74rAv9XklsNB6Kyr
smus9Nm4fKn+0Rz0A5OPR9W1i48NyN4a8K6bb6fp0EJiEikF1kPG/HUkDPLZJPJ9+b0vS7fSo9lp
uUvy5Yks/ruPc+tdNZwF8Nxz6VuW8eIwSOPf+lWtGtYDNcapKwjsIGaQNIflaQD5pMnoqgEDtnJ7
VxN7qr+JNZfWJNy2oQxWMTDBSInJYjszEA/TaO1SLgjFOY4BUEEevemHHGc/QU75N3BwT3Pelzjr
zSA7TnNI3J4BppyT647mhh2B49KCOODx707GB836UHrnPXpUZXDZ6Uf5HtQenT/61MbJUnpVW7tF
vLNon5z0J6g9jXJSxSxymKT5J4TkY/i/HuKuWd4JkIKlWBwynsatnB4HaojvAJwGUdu4FVJfLu42
TY6YOMMMGssn7POUIZgehbtTru0gvLdFltkuF7/3h71o6P4h8R+DrE2FvGmp6Wj77aK5J8y3YdCp
9ParHh7xN40fWdX1TT7G2ubu72yXEby7EjxwpXnnjiugj8Y/Ek2zbNBsCjfMP33IyTnHPTNcj4l1
jxLfT6FDrsKWT2w82xljO4zMSMZPYcCuyi8WfEQ2LJJo9k4AyJRLg9ODjPTFU9d8TeMz4Ru7PU9N
t4rOSLy5rmNwXSMjBIX6VJZeIvGNn4b060srK0uLOKFY47l5MO6gjGVyOwFb3i/VdNuvD2valBbz
M0mmFIS0W3gsQSMjPJC/pWrpHgOxn1aDxHrVosuqNaRotpOokjtxgZOO75zz0H61b8Y+MLTw7Kou
GaS5IzZ6fEfnuZP7zY+6gyOTjoeuK4CyFwyST3rq99cOZrh16M5649ugHsBVsD5gME5OMKM4roNO
tZ0T97KHHZcYKj+tadtaTaxObS3cx28TYuZx1HH3F/2uhz2zWD4s1qLVwfDWkgR6PalY7uVDgSle
kKHuowNx74wO9ZoO4jrxUy5OQwIFKcjJHXvRlQBuOP5UDr6e1AOcrjCjgU05Hvk8GpB15phJA4Ga
QAgMclg3IyPu+wpquMnPA9+tBwvTIX370Bs4FKTgD1+lJz7YNRzTRQQmRjgDg4709lKEqeMdqYMZ
5rM1bTvt0YkjVUmj5Q+vsfUVzO2QyExfJcJ8rox6+x/pV+0vEmTAI3A4Ze6n3q8v3T0x79qoXi/v
Rtkwex9aq6hbthXK/MO9VEuBAgMoHrlaJ79o7V3VmbkbSOwqWw1+9spQ8FqGJ5MbH749Ca6ayv7g
RW+oi9OC77bM5zExzmMnuMHI98Vz3jGWY2nhqVppZQyN5cciAMgBHH1rtpbW9bR11a21CPyRbENb
uOAAMEE9jVTXEuJfAdxfecjQy2KgKylSFwOPY5/wq1awyweEbK9a4T7K1lCqqFwMcYOfX+gqTSdN
bW/iRazNdTy6Zpls8k0QfKPIrgqCOhAY5HvGa9C1/Vjpul6jqLMEFtHm2SRtqzS4O0Z75JAwK8O0
6zkj/wBJu5HnvpzvnuJSSzMeT16DJPFdJGcoK3tNiRIt8mFAGWb0rasLCfWdpgJiszgtOOrjPIX/
ABqn4o8Rto2PDXh2FBP5Z+0XAbd9lBxjju7DJ5PHXmuRsWtv7Nje0iaG1jBVQ4IIweeDz1zUlrcL
d263CRyKjk+WXXBYDvj096sxTCYSmNWxEdjkjADEZx/Wq7azYR3DW0kriUcMoiY02z1ay1C8+yWr
SyTFWcKYWUbV+8cnjgfzrQ+vWo5Z4IInluJFjReSzGoLHULPUvltJS7c4G0gnHXirBbaRtORUcd3
HJeixjYm7MZkEYU/dHU5qxzyOvtWSde0lJPJkucN3BRsj61obop4VlgcPGw+UjHX/wDVUUtxBaxN
LPKI0HO496gtNY02+n8q3uQ8p+6mCCfpnrVs+uP6/rVT7fpsdyU+026zE4IyNxPpVxwwO4qQDyc+
9V4bu1uLme1hmTz4P9cpHKehx6U24vbeG5gtpZGWadisKhCd5644rP1XSRejzYSqXSfxED5vZsf5
Fc78wnIK+RdIfmDD72PfuK0LO7EuQQVYcMr9RSzqJOFJA7YqNbQY5Zie1UL63MeTg/XsBVZUwFGQ
2BxmorksE3KxDKcjHrQmpX6+a8CxxXIXDoTujl+npis3Utfnm0vRYrmJvP0osjknmRd2QPpjiu5H
xk0u2gtksdFmuGeH/SYlXGGx2Pf/AArlG+I+oarpWp6Tewxi0ukAt40XBgYEYGfTAJNdGPi5HpWi
xaVFpHmhLJYt5YD98MDoO3Ga6v4IsDp2sXl/KTfrKlt5I6RQIu9cL1AJZ+T6Vk6hqtx4u1CPWtQj
McUYIsLXPESE53MO7nAz7cdqSNM8EAHvitjT7Tz5lijiluJ+giRfvHk8nsOK7TTfCbPHHJq7AquT
9mQjYo7Bj/F79vrWR4v8WzljoWgFY0kg/eahC4/c842oAD82Afpla5S1tks0fBkeSRt8kkjbndj1
LE8k1BEPtUdpZTS+VbO5DsTgyEkgID7/AOetad1KsOXMeyJcLtQfc7AAUtipW11FTnK3iqeev7sU
zUOdNuExndG3AHXitK9uJ5kiZJTGjxIwSMYGMDjNVQc+tU5o47vWrG1uF3RESTFD0kKDIU+ozzj2
9M1curG3M8E8s08LQyrKhgkCcg52nPY9D9aW4k3SvJ5XlKSWEY6KPSsWO+t9OjtdbF1EZo7/ADLF
uBYQEeW2VHQ7Tn269q354GtriaA4xG5UAdh2/TB/GsWz1M2FvcQDTLy6YzsxuIYspg4ATPqMHirG
iyK9tqVwsaw2948fkRIeQY8ly3ZSdwGPao9Qt7iSS3uraKKZrc58iQ4Eo9KiuJ49e2adc21zp927
AwkgK2Rz+7fpnjHuKv61dNJaXVyU2ZUsQvY4/wAc1Xs9Hsk0W2hNtG5mhV5JcZaQsN2c/jTtKd30
54XZmNrO8IkbG514YZ9cZI/yKzpIroXN3qViitPZSqTGOPOQj5kz9P1x9Delnt5tS0e7tsm2ll3p
kcgY6EdiDkEe1TuNrNkHGaoX2nRX8YIUrKo+Vx2rmbmGazm23A2H+GUfxf5/WpVuipHmH6MOhq9F
KpXOc0XKCWM5Bx3rBkhMcwLqfLPAI7exqniJzKftXmqjjZtHWlmgLgzWmFLgmRQOP97/ABrnZQZb
d5d3mc9f8abaSS2F1FPDIgkUkgsMik82SSdmKhndt0jgd8064meaZRtWR4iQOeCpr3Lw3pq/DrwN
rWqWlydU1C7SBnZsBYsjHI/uqWfP0rOigtIottkLj7IAPKFz/rOnJb3zmmABWyAc54r0LwdcSWPh
u6nljEhS62j5lXCHbyxPQDJJ/TNc9rHiKbW9JbTZ74PcNc+ZI1iGWERDogc8nPBrHit4raLZAuAT
nHPJ9amcblO0cjpnrUMNosmlDT7gicjcWc8ZJOcj36flUqNei0jEksc92GAeUrtDjPU++OtPgSS2
+2JJIHE0wkQheUG3GD6nNJeQTXNk8MTIGkXbufnHvjvVq8a4MSfZ2iaZVRQJM7QAAD09s496c5Bk
Zo87Ccrng496qX9j9tSNo52guInDxSqMlGHf9fxFV00rzbu2n1jUXvfs7iSO2gh2qzjoXOeMdcd+
lWNVjuby2dIJokmkPLux+UE/NgjnPp70s9hpctq8Nrp8CAoUEjQgOc8bvbtTonuF020S9kWW+WFY
5mjJKMyjAbJ5yQAT75qPTvPg0oW9wV3+fJKRE5K4Y5HPrjrTbRJoL++HlrHa3EaMWXq0qnrj3U4J
qC6sbgXseo6eYRdIhixNnaVJ5A/LrQLe+uri3fUrq0jit5VnENruaV2U5Uc9Fz1xzx6GtC523fmh
8fvSS3vnOf51hKPEtsiafALKa2QbIrmVyrRrn+IAZOPatSzt/sVjFbi5+0bcs0zKR5kjHLMfbtj8
aZpJuUj1Jrq3EDzToYx5gYOoXqB2HtVW3sGtPE9leRqfsgn86ZS2AhwckDv7+9aMije54wzHGDnv
1qEbgef0ptxAk8LRuoZW6g1z15ohtF3Wvzxd4mPC/Q1npKYCBHuK7sOpPA9xWvHKGjGTj69aqXCK
jFuuQQc9Kx3itEmVVgIunBYKP4/VqJ3i2YKujkeWqDgHPb865+40m+0sSW9/ZyRzEgpEuCGHqMdq
p7hGCkyFJV4Cn+EelJEsqOAUKqzDn1qtKQt0QFIfJzzjivf/AIdx2Wq2/iNEae4jnW1R/tOS5bLA
lj78Nj3rNtopoBLa3Lq1xbO8EpQfKWUkHHtUiKUlTK5wetdPLAt38OdYgkQFPOXIJ4Iyhrn9u0BA
AABgU0jFLggDmnrTyM5x1FLgHnv0p+0KRk85wDj8zT9qqcRFtvYnqR70BuuBQOOtLtz0OPf3phG0
HJyc9aQYzwKagKgnlmPUHtS/xHr9PSnAgHnv69qTOeBnApv4D8KCcjoBTSRnvx3HakJJ/wDr0gxn
kE470OMoQR+dNGfTjtTMd/SnKc/KwJx1BprqCGB9K4+dQGYD/nqcn15q5GSF55p8u0xHcPwrEvrZ
pJI3VmRlBCspwVPvULCdJLWMlXVjlieMe+a1Zo4tU8Xafb290FnS3Pn72LBGUdDn1HSofENppE8q
X8kUUJaMM0g6v0wf6Vz93c2ElgYIJPnDho1PXHpWXLJASsZjyVHD/wBK9Z+CGp3EPiDUdHW0by5r
NJ/PkbjcjYGPUfOfxFdL4u06Ow8UTSqyk3qGcqONu3AyfcnP6VkwIWJz1Bro7cAeBNdUOEw4YsRw
eF47fz71z7fe7j2oIzxtx6mg8rmlXpVO1vLqVoTPY+RDO2yKbzAysScAH0yQR+NXopGa/nhKYWGL
zC5bk5OMY/Wq1ve6nOUMOkO6zEpG5mXsdrN9Ac/Wpbq+MF09tDZXFw/l7y8RGFUHBzkjJOelWbV/
tdit7GQkMjFU3D5sj7xPpg8VUbUFMF/J5UoFiQHGOZMjIKeuTx9akt7sSaZFfiJo45IvNVT97GOn
1yCPqKfDN9psbe7VGVJ4xIit1HXj654qrFqMc0Vk6RTN9rcxpGBgqRnO7+7jBzVt2xuwC+Bnp96o
YbjzVgzDLGZmIjR8ZOO/HAFPnnjtrd5ZSTFGNzEAngd8DrSXF1FaQebMWUHAUbeWY/dAHqaLe5hu
4POgBKBihyCCrDqpB5BFVf7VsTdC2WYM5k8rOw7fMxnbu6Zxzin32oWunRCS6m8tScDK8n2qSGSO
5t454X3xSDKOOhpSNrYBye9Pfp/PimcDp/OkxyecUmMU6Y5h3LgsOo9K5G6GJD/10P8AOpYxkY9K
fcSGOHAGSe3rWcTJ5oEhyPT0pJEWB4rjDYjbeQP4gOcGuV8S61Dr1+13HpyaarIAVifcZD/eY+tN
j1FRZhJFBBXBLkkk+9UIpYTtEIAYHknqParV7cLLOPL2qh+9HjGDXs3wLmW8u9VkeAmWytooIXwA
NjM7ED6lR27D8dXxTfvf61DFFZTtLbyXEe7ZzKuVJ8vHVVJ5J96zrUYfcpyrd66KFR/whXiEcdFP
Iz/CPp/OufP5+9J260Dp3pPlyc56dqpLFcXNpBYpbNHGj7pJZXUYUNkFQCSTz0NXo3ZtWvGMT7Wt
8CVsbWbdnH1xn29az7WaW1dRFpN89yyNE0rSgJtY/eAJ4IH9anub5tP1HdFY3M0ctv5eLdd/zBs5
Pp9anskuI7ILdARzPI8rQh96x5PAyOD0ycd6owwmd9QlmMyRLKVMe3BmCqGjK+o3k5PpxSuZrjQt
ItoxIsklvGrK64EYAy2/+6Dt/wDHqtWEshhuoJkVBDcExhMldrjfgMeuGz2B6cVBYxW8Gp30sURW
V0UF+q/Ny20didq5x1wKnu53htpJY/Lyo/jYgDn/AD+NVw9vHdabiVQLpvlPnEuDz9wfzx06VZ1V
1h066clVCxsSVHA4qvrLpbxW0/myQeW6EXOzf5BK43Fe9Joriewv7hXeTzrskTtHsE4C7VKL2Cj5
T71UstQUx6ZpsOJJUbbcweUS6SbiWl3dAAfmz3xRqEyDWrZnuYLJ40ZkupkynT7uO5NXtJeL+xYw
jMzSTyvIzEkM2fvLnopGMevWrBGDkYpckDk8UKSc9DjtSdOOaB0OetKSVB7e1cnfAKTgYHmVLCyZ
6gYH4UxwWfLZC+/eqs0b7/usQ3t0qteLM8JWPoyEeX3bjtWJDoIt5dPtLuNL19Rtd0MSNsMDscKG
PqDj8OKi07wXquq3V/YLELeXTo3ednbcNydRkfpVNNNSBbV1ALuQC2euav3fhTV7g3F/BaboImVA
EOS5Y4Xb6816t8C71FGtrJcIIYLeEkHgoFaX5jz3HPT/ABN628V3d9qV7dW1nME1QiG3i2hZYhyo
+boAxO4//WqC3t5NPuH0+WSOVoAqNJEPlY46D1xkjPtXT6eGHhbxCAN37o4yM/wVywOcc445oPXt
+NJnI60e+KBhsD3p5O7jt2z2pC+5cHPofemF9oAUkDFIshxwuB/KjzjnBzx0pDJuyCevp60zzh0A
A+lCuWGSee4p4fHYD61IHPGMDHfHT6UFuc804MWBJGcckUwliQWdjgbRuP3QOwHpQXbGAWX1A6Go
pUSXCuiN3CsuRT8ux3Fix6DPYdh9BS+vpSN/+ujr2/Cg8qDSqcDrx/WmNnack4rltRxu5/56dKkA
XajZ2le/96pAoI+bqKcIjIdwOcc89arXUcpRJYVXzlP7pWH8XYH15rJudH1Xw74msJliju9Xu7dr
swLJxG2cYLd/Wte1e+0G5e6vpDJqGooklsbMMYmjx+9Dg8Z5A+ozWb4ttdM066sbK3lgjnLLJPHC
2Vizycn0Ga6G51K4l0tW0/W9PttOs5muY7lgCWI4jBU8ev6Ve+CsDGLxhAiRsZoImjVW4PEqgfp6
f/XsW0E32eHzJpIlES7ljbBDgcfN145GRTrOGO2Cxou1R05zXY6Th9C11D0Ntz/3y1ceH3NJtiEc
Y/1ZZslh2yOx9qdnPTOe4oDHHTvTsgnk1Bc3UdlBJcTMREikttGT+A71K8iom9yFTbuJPTBGc1Ut
tRtb0FYJN2BuxtI49RnnHvVSTWrEzmISStIrBMLExGfTgVJcahbWkix3M4SVuiv1qRnL8joeQR3q
OS6jiUCaVIwwJ+c7eAMnH4U6Z1iXfNIqp0LMcD65qVGz91wynkMDwRUgkG5lDrleGAP3aeZVKA7w
VPQ7uDQJAThSrfQ9KczqCuSAzcD1NB6Z6kUzJ3f09BT/AK0L160p+uT6Uh5xn/JoAweQR6ZpwpAA
Tz26UjfcJB5HWuX1AfvOf739akWMtHkcNjgUkEuVCHKuvVTUgIwSeKp3lxmKRVlIwD8q9frXFo01
ne+cJ5ln8sEE5DD0HPOMcVaj1XWI9PMQE7RbSECoW2Z7Ke2ax30qexkcyo6jjMjcgkjp9agn02a3
l8pQZFADkYJFez/A94zrXiGOI+Wr2MTbRx0LDP4Z/WtG1y9hAS247BznOePWnxhd3uK6rR2Q6LrS
tjH2Isc/R/8APSuNTLQRHPVVOfXinueM80h6dSPpTlIBGDl8dKo34kkkt7aKNpC7liCdq4A5BP8A
DnpUYSa48OiNkYvGWhZD/HsPH5iljvJb3U2lS2ZLf7OR5jxbSrZHyZPUdDgf3eprPg1WK2leN9Ta
NQ7hbZIskEseS2DnmrE9zDaXD/a3VN0IGXGWY5ORiprEs2m2o2MigNtVhhgmTt4+n6Vn+ckeomaK
4WaQyCBoXT5ghPO3PJPIJ9avX6W32q3W4uo02uSBMuUfHUHPHTpRpXlC2uEijIgjuGWDjAKkAsB7
Bv8APFRX1iJtRgCztb/bR9nuTH1ZAC3B7HgjP+0amvYY5RawQ2kMkYYKlsflTaBwvToBUiRx6bZl
4rWCDzCC6Q89Dxk4H+TUVjIv9qidplaS5VofLVuY9vzAn0zg81X1KOF9RR5rO4vUSEkQ27lCDnhj
gjirsHnHQLbEmbl4yRLIfvAk4/4EABketM0dW8u4JuZ3K7Vkhk5MUvJbB/ukYwPTmr46evv604Uv
OTjNIzHHHWlPSkFKcDocZ71zN8MyDH978qkiOcFvTii4C43pjeDyD3FVpd82WGcDp6VWt7GaaV7e
3VprplYoi8EnHTNczHpmoXuoBLa3mvb1QTlTzgcfpWrcWt5pmk6dff27ve7UstoYh8pBwcnvjr+d
VtRtdRWytpNVt3khuZMW7n5d3XLbfT09q0ZtC1GxvLS2/tO2YXrBYmCbioPdvzrrfgrEYfG+sQyw
hX/s5DyDwC+cdOM5rWgjiS2CQHMAJEZxjK5OP0xTlIVtxPeur8OyPGmphVViLTcA/wB0kbsZ9q4e
0TbZ24A2jYMLnpwOPwqZhil7HkUh+9SYJJo2E9fypjQksOT6dePyphjkXhGx+AqKRCjBjgyf89Dy
3504Zbrlj3J604QKJPMVVWTG3zNvzY+tPa3ikG1okKg8KwyPbinuvT2GFAHAHtUTQK0sUrLl4iWQ
+hII/kTUVzYQXcYjnQsgOQFcj+VFtYWtpHLHbwlFkxv3OWzj6k4qUW6iC2gTcsVqymJM5wVJIye/
49aFtkW8e7BxM0flHsNuc8D8BUKadF9geykLyRO7uQx+7uOcD2zT7Syjs0kCPLJJJjzJpmyzAZwP
oMmrCrTxwKaaQUA470vB4Jwe2OtMk749K5u7zuGT1fNTRD5R9OvrUkv+qPAA9TWa80mNqqQPT+tJ
AhtklMbXIOMq0BIf3C/r+tZFvrt3pd8Z9LJt76cfZVWZMFVY859D0NdDDqH9j6rPoNzeRXVjZRH/
AE3yxtJI4QYJ9TmovFdxp/iC20G9hvQbpf8AQmsom4iQDg4/vZwM/hXOXjJZ6hBCLovZ20m24Dgm
RGc/OB+FegfCySV/i9rRuLmC4uZtPZ52gxsWTzE3KvXgHIrZRcIVCkYZhjHTk8f5/wDr0nO4bfWu
p8MZM94n961P8z/jXEWpzaW59UH8hUz9KRR8lOHQcU8BTS4x7n0qJqQjI7+1J5eOvWlCjPFOIxzS
etAOR3p4VmViu3C8nJxn/GjHy5PXv7Uz5RyM+9KcdqTilHWlxmgdefpQcdutNJxzkgjoajbr249K
Z15x+XSn/wAXA5ol/wBW2Bz2Fc3c9UGMfN0zU0JxtIzgjtUssZ8rhd2Rn5azVxlvWphfS2EbXkAi
WaIZUyjKg+p9q566spdev7yWRo9SmSMSubRSFlycHaByQOma055p9OtRpUGnWaXQUW0qBw6r3JyO
tZmrfL4hig0yONZI51jiuggClsdQPQH/ANBq7e6TFoqi4v5BNG8pzqQGRJJk5wO3OK7D4Y3nhi9+
J8MvhnTp9PUaJJFdQSrj96skY3A5Ocjqe+MkZzW68TRvIG2hjI5Kg52nceD71VaQoBtRnOcYA6Z4
zXXeG18vVJoshiLZuQOvIrhrYZto+/GM+vvUzcducUxelSD7vPT+tH44p4OR0pjdaTOG/nTyARnr
z1pgO3p1pwx27Uf49KM46UZwc0blVcscCmNjHyrznk54I+lMBOaXjIz+VKMdqTd+X8qcGp2c80xj
/wDWqJiMc5/DtQDkY9KcMgZH/wCqlb7p7+9czc7d47HdzU0JGwYNXxzGeMcVgXW+2uCSC0L/AMXp
WnpGktrOowabGyJ9pRy0jjKqFUnJH5f5FY3h2+fwf4svH1CSBJLe3e22w8xIzkYwO6jrSaH4c/ty
2NnotuZpyphmvGusJ5rLu3kjJwoznHcgU3UfDUfhTU9JsNX1HzE+0fv5LdTkR4+6uOQSMDj1rrb/
AEPTbrw7MJ4ZdJ8OaWj3cLTN880khzGgB5GOQR6sB7hfh3ZafZfFHTp9KlWWxvNHkMcq8eYQU3Ej
scjkdiK6W+wupXyDOVuJQ2f94n+tUwPmHFdN4Wx/bJHc27fzFcZHwhXAGHcY/wCBGntxg5pADjHY
Uozihu3NPT7ppH6VFgk4BA9zUqsApOeegFRSyEn5RmmeaoGOackhJJ2HA9aeGb86eAcD1oBYggBD
kYJPb3HvTC244bHHTA61XklkDEKMUgORx0p247fxoDsCf5elO35pxJI5ppbjnrSdM9M+9ICAOM+t
KrU9+h5xxXNXHLgZ5zUyHjbjpViEjaR1J7VUulO0q6BlXqB1P1p2j3baXrVvLFYS6nM8ckSWUJw0
gZec+igAkn296qyatpOu6r4juINFhhea1htbFLr5RFgBRtUDgk4Ix6da6WLRbr7RZaZp+j2Vikdp
CZnkcbZZQ+8uQvUEjHPJFZfiWxg8P+PNEuZ9guzvvr0Llgrnnp6+n0rbjXSPHdgIXglEQdLq8u7i
Q7Ym3DbCnP3jkjjpn3qHwPo99/wsGx16yt7WLw79ou7K2SF+du1iJMdNrFO3pW3ex3EWva158kZB
vC0KquDtKjOT+VQqM10Phc/8T6L3t3H45WuSdSk06n+GeQdc4+dqRm6UnAGB+lKKRvvZ9akDD1x6
VG75J6U1TnsaUjKgenWggEYbOfambB36dqlHSjG3r19qUdcdaGGQR68Z9aMBVAGc4xzUCQlkbzMj
B4zTxEoHANGz60vA+tBQYppXAqMjacU0/eyS2Pft707JJwPzPU0Jj7xp7keU3c461zc5xMB9aliz
gZx+FW0/1Z6/jUGModynkVLoPiCPwhq8mqzWMt4WtWt4ooQN24sDznovy8n26Gs7QY9b8S/FO7+2
38NhchWd5kg+5Eq4URI/O7axwWGRnJBPB6rUZb/RZNP0/wAJeHntZrtY/Lvb2YyssJBAZwSSpHzH
BPA7dh58mg2Uvjyz0rUNebUra8mMl1do+4yg4+XdkkliAOPXiuqn1LVX1keGU8NXem6JfzR2lgYk
KssKHlt3TcwBJPVQe/Wu60mLTf8Ail77wzbWl5pTz4nuo5ctbHyCigLjjPAYcYOMjkkVfEE0dv4h
1JTne8oKIOrnYPuiqVrHMWL3LKD/AAQp29ye9dJ4cONetznrHIP5H+lctfDbql8ARhbqTof9o/57
/WoGIJ5FDdKQdOtNZgB0/Konl2rjcfxqulw7SdaspJgetS7/APJ60hkOeKTf6nJpRcKM8UokHrj2
qRWBHXr0pQ3HHSk3cdcUm73o35/pSg8mkNOAGKY2TxmmN2pjcHPA9xTfpTo+nUfQ06f5YHbOMDrX
My/61P5DrU0bdOAasLJkNyePWo5Zd3Xn3HrUulyX0V3czaXbRXF+LSTYszYULxk+54GB71xVtrWs
WniHUdRvtXktLi5Bi1CeBA0xUkZWPsCcAAj1r0dZJNN0y4/ty2u43uI4pzCJSX2hdsFuOSeMFnJx
k8c5rM0p9Ouvix4fawsIY5VtpJLiMArHDJt65xzgfqRXX+KviC+kabHHfWkTXM7SGO3tpPnt4Rwr
yN2JHzcY647ZrhPh74uT+3NK0Kzjt7OGbVBdTLEGBcspG0dtv3SAR2r0LxI0Vv44kSURrczYe1cj
/YwRn14NVk4bPvW5oII12yIJxhwf++fp/n+XNaqduvaqpzgXj4z74NVHI28HntSHOO9A6dsfWouO
2PxphjBXjdmozFz/ADqZVxj1qTbjJpOc8dKjPQ80i7e5+tP+U9OT3NSgYGeT9O9GM8fNmlb6ZNMO
/PIOfrTQ/XHWlDj/AGj70/fx39s0b6N2R97Bp2M9etBTI6UzndzSDvn7tJOd1rIT6VzcuPPXFWO4
C4yB3qQcLnj8KhLKHHynHvWR4iv7ix0qWeGZ43yFzGxGc9jXIaR4gi0u++0XWnrqIPzCGSTapbsW
PfB7e1dafiS17oc0d2M6g92JEQ5IjjAIADH0z/OsO+8ST3+updWt/wD2escKwtOAOVHLYA65P8q3
9L1qxazvLWeWHULl2iW1tjHg3D+YHZ5G7KFByT13GsjwBp8a+NPD85mVP9NjYLINr5BBAweoIPX6
V7d4sTRW8bJ5ccr6vGgmkJcmMDGFO0n7wwecdz61Tzg/jW1obgapZjqPN6enB/xrA1obfE2rD/p5
PH1UGqLYPBoOQuCaZjdxkH6Uw8uf1qSMALgetIV+YYGRijbz0xTW/H6elMPHIPPtUb5LAd6UE85X
AHf1pVkIyEHJ7Z61MobAYnk/7VSgkjkfj60E4B5PvimZyejc0xv94nHY0whs8dKbhj1zxTwnPKnP
tUmzC5HI96CefQ+lSLjBz1prDHXd7UwjHcfWm3BUWsjZwMVzsx3Sq3Tv9amBG0YqeJQVJYYFQTNv
kIX7g7+tYHiZFu9FeFHAxICzN7Z4rhlsvNhd4w7eWcEiqu12B2KdqjLYH8605tFmTT7GdQS1zk4I
xs9Pz61HHpkrXZhwJLgcjByD/wDWzXrOn+MdIfw7YQXnhjVhqFpcRXVtcfZf3aqrAjD5ztK5HTFe
n+KvsIltZ7aEPPffvftajIMYUfLu9CMH0rAUZYH8q1dJfGpWZOf9cvf14rH8Rjb4u1QBcfvEIx7o
KzZATjJ5pP4fvE+4po6dRinAZPOPxqUICMjH4U0oN3emsQOv/wCqmbsqT+lR7vpk+tQv2OPxPWm5
9/rTxIAc9v61YSUrwMfjSiU4oEhIwM0pIPVqTjsQfxpGYDjJNKqZHJwPepAMHB6+vrThg5BIprDB
7UDr70/APB6U0qAP5VDcDdDIPauckGJhjqQalUMelXACI+D9ay5Gd7gwocKBz9KrappR1TTJYxNH
awWwM8ssjAAgDp9TxXP6XteNYbW8tktUHzllBbJ6fjWjpHw41TxHra6XbXsENu0IuLmdASsW77iH
/bPB2+nNanj/AOH2p+GNKtftGpGe2+WGJkjA/eY4QDr2rndX8K6n4GXTf7QvYZLq/iMr28XLQAYA
3H8fzBrt5vEeo+I9V1GHQdSUaREqSIzRgjbwdoGOgxz9TW3BqVzEsNpeIHjtlKQvGThUzkLj0GBg
+mK0oHEyb0IxnB9a0dNOL6zbB4uEH6/WqHidT/wl+pYGM+Wfr8grJcMP/rdabyF4zmkUkggKSfUU
oyuMfl6VKrHH/wBakckDJWoTISeFIppfKnk81DuPICn8aayuQcrnHb0pmGHZjSqG68/jUqbs5AJP
oKkwRyQacpyPu/8A1qft44x+NHI6qMewoOcjikOc8Aj14oHbANPBKgEgn2A60rP87bUYJnjPX8aA
SBxkZ74pQeeOlKTgcjNR3H/Hu/HauZkz9pHXp3FWVBCgj6/WpW3MuOfwqq0LiZj61paF4X0/xRrI
s9VjuJNMtYmu50jOyNmHCh34x1JAz2NU9U0Pwa3ie1bwhost4to5E0kMjNbu4GcBmJBAHJP09al8
U6d4n8OS2us6TerbW1y5e0tbeP8A1UzKdzMMbTxuwSeM1w+seJPGnixdI0e8uXnkT/UBYyjs/Tcz
dzjPNUW8M+JLC+uoXsprhwFM1wGymCcDLnjk5wDye1f/2Q==

------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01BE3B4A.5EAF0660--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Terry Landis" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Tompkins book
Date: 08 Jan 1999 19:11:28 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE3B3A.B1BDCAE0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



would anyone know where to get a copy of Tompkins book "Indian sign
language"?

I thought I'd like to try my "hand" at it.



------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE3B3A.B1BDCAE0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>Untitled Stationery</TITLE>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><FONT face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D5>
<P><SPAN class=3D370060903-09011999><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3D"Bookman Old Style"=20
size=3D5>would anyone know where to get a copy of Tompkins book =
"Indian sign=20
language"?</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN class=3D370060903-09011999><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3D"Bookman Old Style"=20
size=3D5></FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=3D370060903-09011999><FONT =
color=3D#000000=20
face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D5>I thought I'd like to try my =
"hand" at=20
it.</FONT></SPAN></P></FONT>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE3B3A.B1BDCAE0--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tompkins book
Date: 08 Jan 1999 21:24:40 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_006E_01BE3B4D.4D5E5160
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Try Ron and Gayle Harris at [e-mail] They stock the book =
at their bookstore, Books and Crannies, in Terrell, Texas.
Lanney Racliff
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Terry Landis <[e-mail]>
    To: Hist_Text@Lists. Xmission. Com <[e-mail]>
    Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 9:12 PM
    Subject: MtMan-List: Tompkins book
   =20
   =20
   =20
   =20
    would anyone know where to get a copy of Tompkins book "Indian sign =
language"?

    I thought I'd like to try my "hand" at it.



------=_NextPart_000_006E_01BE3B4D.4D5E5160
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>Untitled Stationery</TITLE><!DOCTYPE =
HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Try Ron and Gayle Harris at <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> They =
stock the=20
book at their bookstore, Books and Crannies, in Terrell, Texas.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000>Lanney Racliff</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Terry Landis <<A=20
    href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>To:=20
    </B>Hist_Text@Lists. Xmission. Com <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Friday, January 08, 1999 9:12 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>MtMan-List: =
Tompkins=20
    book<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <DIV> </DIV>
    <DIV> </DIV><FONT face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D5>
    <P><SPAN class=3D370060903-09011999><FONT color=3D#000000=20
    face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D5>would anyone know where to get a =
copy of=20
    Tompkins book "Indian sign language"?</FONT></SPAN></P>
    <P><SPAN class=3D370060903-09011999><FONT color=3D#000000=20
    face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D5></FONT></SPAN><SPAN=20
    class=3D370060903-09011999><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style"=20
    size=3D5>I thought I'd like to try my "hand" at=20
    it.</FONT></SPAN></P></FONT>
    <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_006E_01BE3B4D.4D5E5160--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tompkins book
Date: 08 Jan 1999 22:25:08 EST

Try searching this site for Tomkins book

Todd Glover



<A HREF="http://www2.alibris.com/cgi-bin/texis/bookstore">Alibris - The
Ultimate Source for OP and Rare Books 368e680b2</A>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Pipe smoke
Date: 08 Jan 1999 21:27:57 -0600




>
>
>
>
> >All this talk of pipe smoke, what we use is Kinnikinnick or Bear berry,
>  >And it is a cool, and not to bitey smoke.
>

I did a trek with a Tarahumara Indian, originally from Copper Canyon in Mexico,
and his smoking mixture was a blend of  aromatic sumac (squaw bush), a little
spearmint, peppermint, anise, and yarrow. I don't know the proportions, but this
was a real good smoke.    J.D.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jody Carlson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Matchcoat
Date: 08 Jan 1999 21:34:59 -0600

Can anyone suggest a good pattern available to make a wool matchcoat of the
1820s?

In advance I thank you all.

[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tompkins book
Date: 09 Jan 1999 00:28:43 -0800


--------------B3A045CED12F5E791730D6C0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Yup.  www.amazon.com

Medicine Bear

Terry Landis wrote:

>    would anyone know where to get a copy of Tompkins book "Indian sign
> language"?
>
> I thought I'd like to try my "hand" at it.

--------------B3A045CED12F5E791730D6C0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Yup.  www.amazon.com
<p>Medicine Bear
<p>Terry Landis wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>   <span class=370060903-09011999><font face="Bookman Old Style"><font color="#000000"><font size=+2>would
anyone know where to get a copy of Tompkins book "Indian sign language"?</font></font></font></span>
<p><span class=370060903-09011999></span><span class=370060903-09011999><font face="Bookman Old Style"><font color="#000000"><font size=+2>I
thought I'd like to try my "hand" at it.</font></font></font></span> </blockquote>

</body>
</html>

--------------B3A045CED12F5E791730D6C0--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tompkins book
Date: 09 Jan 1999 07:35:33 -0800


--------------0F2471F221D0291E1109E34D
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

That's what I was going to reply since that's where I got mine (and it
was cheap), however, according to Amazon.com, the publisher is currently
out of stock and they are not presently taking any orders for this
book.  I'm sorry I can't think of another source since just about any
bookseller will look to the publisher and they are not likely to stock
this book.  It's an excellent book - if you were close I'd loan you
mine.

Tom

Frank wrote:

> Yup.  www.amazon.com
>
> Medicine Bear
>
> Terry Landis wrote:
>
>> would anyone know where to get a copy of Tompkins book "Indian sign
>> language"?
>>
>> I thought I'd like to try my "hand" at it.
>

--------------0F2471F221D0291E1109E34D
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML>
<BODY BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF">
That's what I was going to reply since that's where I got mine (and it
was cheap), however, according to Amazon.com, the publisher is currently
out of stock and they are not presently taking any orders for this book.
I'm sorry I can't think of another source since just about any bookseller
will look to the publisher and they are not likely to stock this book.
It's an excellent book - if you were close I'd loan you mine.
<P>Tom
<P>Frank wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
Yup.  www.amazon.com
<P>Medicine Bear
<P>Terry Landis wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE><SPAN class=370060903-09011999><FONT FACE="Bookman Old Style"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=+2>would
anyone know where to get a copy of Tompkins book "Indian sign language"?</FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN>
<P><SPAN class=370060903-09011999></SPAN><SPAN class=370060903-09011999><FONT FACE="Bookman Old Style"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=+2>I
thought I'd like to try my "hand" at it.</FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>

</BODY>
</HTML>

--------------0F2471F221D0291E1109E34D--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: RE: Books on sign language
Date: 09 Jan 1999 10:14:57 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BE3BB8.E87D4E60
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Indian Sign Language  , Tompkins
    NY    1969      VG         $6.00
email:  [e-mail]


Indian Sign Language  , Tompkins
  San Diego      G             $25.00
email:  [e-mail]



another interesting book i've read on sign talk is
Sign Talk   by : Ernest Thompson Seton    1918
This book includes indian sign language and
other types as well, but is rather difficult to find to the=20
tune of $400 to$500 on the used book market.=20
I don't know if it was ever reprinted.

                                        from northwoods
                                             Tony

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BE3BB8.E87D4E60
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Indian Sign Language  , Tompkins</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>    NY   =20
1969     =20
VG         $6.00</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>email:  <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Indian Sign Language  , Tompkins</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>  San Diego     =20
G            =
=20
$25.00</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>email:  <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A></FONT=
></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>another interesting book i've read on sign talk=20
is</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Sign Talk   by : Ernest Thompson=20
Seton    1918</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>This book includes indian sign language =
and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>other types as well, but is rather difficult to find =
to the=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>tune of $400 to$500 on the used book market. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I don't know if it was ever reprinted.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
size=3D2>          &nbs=
p;            =
;            =
    =20
from northwoods</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
size=3D2>          &nbs=
p;            =
;            =
         =20
Tony</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BE3BB8.E87D4E60--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Books on sign language
Date: 09 Jan 1999 17:24:36 -0500


--------------BEFBE89F967D5299C8EDC691
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I have a copy of this book.
San Diego, Cal.
1948 in good condition.

It was given to me so I cannot sell it.  But if someone can use it.
Send me a postage paid 8.5 to 11" envelope from Jacksonville, Fla. to
where ever you live....and it will be given to  you.  Since it was given
to me to use.....please use it.  Do not sell it.  And when finished,
pass it on.

Linda Holley
Contact me for the full address.  The first one who responds by e-mail,
gets the prize.

northwoods wrote:

>  Indian Sign Language  , Tompkins    NY    1969      VG
> $6.00email:  [e-mail]  Indian Sign Language  , Tompkins  San
> Diego      G             $25.00email:
> [e-mail]   another interesting book i've read on sign
> talk isSign Talk   by : Ernest Thompson Seton    1918This book
> includes indian sign language andother types as well, but is rather
> difficult to find to thetune of $400 to$500 on the used book market.I
> don't know if it was ever
> reprinted.                                         from
> northwoods                                             Tony

--------------BEFBE89F967D5299C8EDC691
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
I have a copy of this book.
<br>San Diego, Cal.
<br>1948 in good condition.
<p>It was given to me so I cannot sell it.  But if someone can use
it.
<br>Send me a postage paid 8.5 to 11" envelope from Jacksonville, Fla.
to where ever you live....and it will be given to  you.  Since
it was given to me to use.....please use it.  Do not sell it.
And when finished, pass it on.
<p>Linda Holley
<br>Contact me for the full address.  The first one who responds by
e-mail, gets the prize.
<p>northwoods wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE> <font size=-1>Indian Sign Language  ,
Tompkins</font><font size=-1>    NY    1969
VG         $6.00</font><font size=-1>email:
<a href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a></font>  <font size=-1>Indian
Sign Language  , Tompkins</font><font size=-1>  San Diego
G
$25.00</font><font size=-1>email:  <a href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a></font>   <font size=-1>another
interesting book i've read on sign talk is</font><font size=-1>Sign Talk
by : Ernest Thompson Seton    1918</font><font size=-1>This
book includes indian sign language and</font><font size=-1>other types
as well, but is rather difficult to find to the</font><font size=-1>tune
of $400 to$500 on the used book market.</font><font size=-1>I don't know
if it was ever reprinted.</font> <font size=-1>
from northwoods</font><font size=-1>
Tony</font></blockquote>

</body>
</html>

--------------BEFBE89F967D5299C8EDC691--





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: linda lawyer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Books on sign language
Date: 09 Jan 1999 16:12:41 -0800 (PST)


Linda, we would love to have the book.   Keith and Linda Lawyer    150
Immigrant Trail Road...Denison, Texas 75021.....and we never sell a
book.  Thanks, Linda


---Linda Holley <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> I have a copy of this book.
> San Diego, Cal.
> 1948 in good condition.
>
> It was given to me so I cannot sell it.  But if someone can use it.
> Send me a postage paid 8.5 to 11" envelope from Jacksonville, Fla. to
> where ever you live....and it will be given to  you.  Since it was
given
> to me to use.....please use it.  Do not sell it.  And when finished,
> pass it on.
>
> Linda Holley
> Contact me for the full address.  The first one who responds by
e-mail,
> gets the prize.
>
> northwoods wrote:
>
> >  Indian Sign Language  , Tompkins    NY    1969      VG
> > $6.00email:  [e-mail]  Indian Sign Language  , Tompkins  San
> > Diego      G             $25.00email:
> > [e-mail]   another interesting book i've read on sign
> > talk isSign Talk   by : Ernest Thompson Seton    1918This book
> > includes indian sign language andother types as well, but is rather
> > difficult to find to thetune of $400 to$500 on the used book
market.I
> > don't know if it was ever
> > reprinted.                                         from
> > northwoods                                             Tony
>
<HR>
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
I have a copy of this book.
<br>San Diego, Cal.
<br>1948 in good condition.
<p>It was given to me so I cannot sell it.á But if someone can use
it.
<br>Send me a postage paid 8.5 to 11" envelope from Jacksonville, Fla.
to where ever you live....and it will be given toá you.á Since
it was given to me to use.....please use it.á Do not sell it.á
And when finished, pass it on.
<p>Linda Holley
<br>Contact me for the full address.á The first one who responds by
e-mail, gets the prize.
<p>northwoods wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>á<font size=-1>Indian Sign Languageá ,
Tompkins</font><font size=-1>ááá NYááá 1969ááááá
VGáááááááá $6.00</font><font size=-1>email:á
<a href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a></font>áá<font
size=-1>Indian
Sign Languageá , Tompkins</font><font size=-1>á San Diegoááááá
Gáááááááááááá
$25.00</font><font size=-1>email:á <a
href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a></font>ááá<font
size=-1>another
interesting book i've read on sign talk is</font><font size=-1>Sign
Talkáá
by : Ernest Thompson Setonááá 1918</font><font size=-1>This
book includes indian sign language and</font><font size=-1>other types
as well, but is rather difficult to find to the</font><font size=-1>tune
of $400 to$500 on the used book market.</font><font size=-1>I don't know
if it was ever reprinted.</font>á<font
size=-1>ááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááá
from northwoods</font><font
size=-1>áááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááá
Tony</font></blockquote>

</body>
</html>


==


Keith and Linda Lawyer
[e-mail]



_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ron and Gayle Harris" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tompkins book
Date: 09 Jan 1999 18:17:30 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0034_01BE3BFC.521BBEE0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi!
Just for an FWI, we have a bookstore in Terrell, Tx and we stock the =
Tompkins book ($3.95) and the Clark book, as well as Indian Sign =
Language Flash cards ($15.00 or $30.00 for laminated).  We are long-time =
'skinners, Ron is AMM and Gayle is Hanta Yowin.  Would appreciate it if =
you could refer folks to us when they are looking for books - we are =
always happy to help out fellow enthusiasts!  (We also have used books). =
 Thanks for the help!
Ron & Gayle Harris
"Lightfoot" and "Sunshine"
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Tom Roberts <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Saturday, January 09, 1999 6:26 AM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tompkins book
   =20
   =20
    That's what I was going to reply since that's where I got mine (and =
it was cheap), however, according to Amazon.com, the publisher is =
currently out of stock and they are not presently taking any orders for =
this book.  I'm sorry I can't think of another source since just about =
any bookseller will look to the publisher and they are not likely to =
stock this book.  It's an excellent book - if you were close I'd loan =
you mine.=20
    Tom=20

    Frank wrote:=20

        Yup.  www.amazon.com=20
        Medicine Bear=20

        Terry Landis wrote:=20

            would anyone know where to get a copy of Tompkins book =
"Indian sign language"?=20
            I thought I'd like to try my "hand" at it.


------=_NextPart_000_0034_01BE3BFC.521BBEE0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 =
Transitional//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Hi!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Just for an FWI, we have a bookstore in Terrell, Tx =
and we=20
stock the Tompkins book ($3.95) and the Clark book, as well as Indian =
Sign=20
Language Flash cards ($15.00 or $30.00 for laminated).  We are =
long-time=20
'skinners, Ron is AMM and Gayle is Hanta Yowin.  Would appreciate =
it if you=20
could refer folks to us when they are looking for books - we are always =
happy to=20
help out fellow enthusiasts!  (We also have used books).  =
Thanks for=20
the help!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Ron & Gayle Harris</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>"Lightfoot" and =
"Sunshine"</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Tom Roberts <<A=20
    href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>To: =
</B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Saturday, January 09, 1999 6:26 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: =
MtMan-List:=20
    Tompkins book<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>That's what I was going to reply =
since=20
    that's where I got mine (and it was cheap), however, according to=20
    Amazon.com, the publisher is currently out of stock and they are not =

    presently taking any orders for this book.  I'm sorry I can't =
think of=20
    another source since just about any bookseller will look to the =
publisher=20
    and they are not likely to stock this book.  It's an excellent =
book -=20
    if you were close I'd loan you mine.=20
    <P>Tom=20
    <P>Frank wrote:=20
    <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE =3D CITE>Yup.  www.amazon.com=20
        <P>Medicine Bear=20
        <P>Terry Landis wrote:=20
        <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE =3D CITE><SPAN class=3D370060903-09011999><FONT =

            face=3D"Bookman Old Style"><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT =
size=3D+2>would=20
            anyone know where to get a copy of Tompkins book =
"Indian sign=20
            language"?</FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN>=20
            <P><SPAN class=3D370060903-09011999></SPAN><SPAN=20
            class=3D370060903-09011999><FONT face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style"><FONT=20
            color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D+2>I thought I'd like to try my =

            "hand" at=20
    =
it.</FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE=
></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0034_01BE3BFC.521BBEE0--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: trapping beaver in open water
Date: 09 Jan 1999 20:20:53 EST

need infor on trapping beaver in open water how?



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: RE: trapping beaver in open water
Date: 09 Jan 1999 19:35:01 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE3C07.26243FA0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

could you be a little more specific about the type of info=20
needed about trapping beaver in open water.

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE3C07.26243FA0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>could you be a little more specific =
about the=20
type of info </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>needed about trapping beaver in open =

water.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE3C07.26243FA0--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Books on sign language
Date: 09 Jan 1999 21:19:18 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BE3C15.B7591140
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

That is a very generous offer, Linda.  I hope the person who receives =
your copy is as honorable as you.  I have two recent copies in paperback =
and don't need the book.  Pass it on to someone without a copy.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Saturday, January 09, 1999 4:18 PM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Books on sign language
   =20
   =20
    I have a copy of this book.=20
    San Diego, Cal.=20
    1948 in good condition.=20
    It was given to me so I cannot sell it.  But if someone can use it.=20
    Send me a postage paid 8.5 to 11" envelope from Jacksonville, Fla. =
to where ever you live....and it will be given to  you.  Since it was =
given to me to use.....please use it.  Do not sell it.  And when =
finished, pass it on.=20

    Linda Holley=20
    Contact me for the full address.  The first one who responds by =
e-mail, gets the prize.=20

    northwoods wrote:=20

         Indian Sign Language  , Tompkins    NY    1969      VG         =
$6.00email:  [e-mail]  Indian Sign Language  , Tompkins  San =
Diego      G             $25.00email:  [e-mail]   another =
interesting book i've read on sign talk isSign Talk   by : Ernest =
Thompson Seton    1918This book includes indian sign language andother =
types as well, but is rather difficult to find to thetune of $400 to$500 =
on the used book market.I don't know if it was ever reprinted.           =
                              from northwoods                            =
                 Tony

------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BE3C15.B7591140
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 =
transitional//en">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000>That is a very generous offer, Linda.  I =
hope the=20
person who receives your copy is as honorable as you.  I have two =
recent=20
copies in paperback and don't need the book.  Pass it on to someone =
without=20
a copy.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000></FONT>YMOS</DIV>
<DIV>Lanney Ratcliff</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Linda Holley <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>To: =
</B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Saturday, January 09, 1999 4:18 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: =
MtMan-List:=20
    RE: Books on sign language<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>I have a copy of this =
book.=20
    <BR>San Diego, Cal. <BR>1948 in good condition.=20
    <P>It was given to me so I cannot sell it.  But if someone can =
use it.=20
    <BR>Send me a postage paid 8.5 to 11" envelope from =
Jacksonville, Fla.=20
    to where ever you live....and it will be given to  you.  =
Since it=20
    was given to me to use.....please use it.  Do not sell =
it.  And=20
    when finished, pass it on.=20
    <P>Linda Holley <BR>Contact me for the full address.  The first =
one who=20
    responds by e-mail, gets the prize.=20
    <P>northwoods wrote:=20
    <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE =3D CITE> <FONT size=3D-1>Indian Sign =
Language  ,=20
        Tompkins</FONT><FONT size=3D-1>    =
NY   =20
        1969     =20
        VG         =
$6.00</FONT><FONT=20
        size=3D-1>email:  <A=20
        =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A></FONT>  <=
FONT=20
        size=3D-1>Indian Sign Language  , Tompkins</FONT><FONT =
size=3D-1> =20
        San Diego     =20
        =
G            =
=20
        $25.00</FONT><FONT size=3D-1>email:  <A=20
        =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A></FONT=
>   <FONT=20
        size=3D-1>another interesting book i've read on sign talk =
is</FONT><FONT=20
        size=3D-1>Sign Talk   by : Ernest Thompson=20
        Seton    1918</FONT><FONT size=3D-1>This book =
includes=20
        indian sign language and</FONT><FONT size=3D-1>other types as =
well, but is=20
        rather difficult to find to the</FONT><FONT size=3D-1>tune of =
$400 to$500=20
        on the used book market.</FONT><FONT size=3D-1>I don't know if =
it was ever=20
        reprinted.</FONT> <FONT=20
        =
size=3D-1>          &nb=
sp;           &nbs=
p;            =
;    =20
        from northwoods</FONT><FONT=20
        =
size=3D-1>          &nb=
sp;           &nbs=
p;            =
;         =20
        Tony</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BE3C15.B7591140--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: trapping beaver in open water
Date: 09 Jan 1999 23:26:43 EST

A friend (fellow AMM member) new to trapping,  is trapping in a lake using
foot hold traps.   He would like any information on trap sets because the lake
is starting to freeze over.   This lake drops to about 20'  about 15' from the
shoreline.    We have located the dens.   Lake is approx. 5+ acres.    One
side is heavily wooded with rocky bank and the other is clear cut with mud
slope bank.   Dam is probably over 600 yds long.

I've given him all my ideas.   If you need any more info, please contact me.
Any ideas about this would be appreciated by both of us.

Traphand
[e-mail]
P.S.    He moved near lake (whereas I'm 1 hour away)  so he's
stolen my trapping spot!   AND he just trapped the Granddaddy beaver
I've attempted to catch for years.   I call that beaver "Four Toes"  since
I've
got one of his toes from two seasons ago.   It figures this buddy would get
him his first season out.   What a dawg!!!!!




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dale Nelson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Grommets
Date: 08 Jan 1999 20:53:32 -0800

Tom Roberts wrote:
>
> Just bought a small hunter's tent and was surprised to find grommets on
> the fly.  I suspect they are inappropriate for pre-1840 and was
> wondering if someone knowledgeable could comment.

Sailing ships had to have grommets in the sails, whether brass or sewed
I don't know, but it's not like they weren't used.  That's the first
place I'd start a search though -- Mystic Seaport Museum etc.
                DN



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Grommets
Date: 08 Jan 1999 17:07:02 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_01BE3B29.4F487880
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Tom You can take them out then sew around the hole and it will make a cloth
grommets.  Later Jon T

----------
: From: Tom Roberts <[e-mail]>
: To: [e-mail]
: Subject: MtMan-List: Grommets
: Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 6:13 PM
:
: Just bought a small hunter's tent and was surprised to find grommets on
: the fly.  I suspect they are inappropriate for pre-1840 and was
: wondering if someone knowledgeable could comment.
:
: Thanks!
:
: Tom
:
:
:
:
------=_NextPart_000_01BE3B29.4F487880
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">Tom You can take them out then sew =
around the hole and it will make a cloth grommets.  Later Jon =
T<br><br>----------<br>: From: Tom Roberts <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">><br>: To: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>: Subject: MtMan-List: Grommets<br>: Date: Friday, =
January 08, 1999 6:13 PM<br>: <br>: Just bought a small hunter's tent =
and was surprised to find grommets on<br>: the fly.  I suspect they =
are inappropriate for pre-1840 and was<br>: wondering if someone =
knowledgeable could comment.<br>: <br>: Thanks!<br>: <br>: Tom<br>: =
<br>: <br>: <br>: </p>
</font></font></font></font></font></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BE3B29.4F487880--



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Grommets
Date: 09 Jan 1999 23:33:29 -0600

For what it is worth, these are the references to grommets in Noah =
Webster's 1828 dictionary.  I am finding this CD to be remarkably handy. =
 I will be glad to look up other words, etc and forward the definition =
exactly as it is shown.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff

GROM'MET, n. Among seamen, a ring formed of a strand of rope laid in =
three times round; used to fasten the upper edge of a sail to its stay.
HANK, n.
1.  A skein of thread; as much thread as is tied together; a tie.
2.  In ships. a wooden ring fixed to a stay, to confine the stay-sails; =
used in the place of a grommet.
TRAV'ELER, n.
1.  One who travels in any way.  Job:31.
2.  One who visits foreign countries.
3.  In ships, an iron thimble or thimbles with a rope spliced round =
them, forming a kind of tail or a species of grommet.






-----Original Message-----


>Tom Roberts wrote:
>>=20
>> Just bought a small hunter's tent and was surprised to find grommets =
on
>> the fly.  I suspect they are inappropriate for pre-1840 and was
>> wondering if someone knowledgeable could comment.
>
>Sailing ships had to have grommets in the sails, whether brass or sewed
>I don't know, but it's not like they weren't used.  That's the first
>place I'd start a search though -- Mystic Seaport Museum etc.
> DN
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Grommets
Date: 10 Jan 1999 00:31:48 EST

Lanney, Could you please give me (us) the source for the Noah Webster CD.
Thanks. yhs, 'Barney Fife"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Grommets
Date: 09 Jan 1999 23:49:17 -0600

I bought the CD from Christian Technologies.  They sell supplies to the =
Christian home school market and use the 1828 dictionary because Noah =
Webster used the Bible as the foundation of his definitions.   They also =
sell Webster's 1833 Bible on CD.  I don't do the home school thing but =
the dictionary is amazing.  I find odd words in period journals and =
diaries and usually find a definition within seconds, including all =
references to the word in question found in the dictionary.  They have a =
web site:  http://www.christiantech.com
The CD cost $29.95 plus $5.00 S&H.  I ordered it from the web site and =
it arrived within a week.
I hope this helps.
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----


>Lanney, Could you please give me (us) the source for the Noah Webster =
CD.
>Thanks. yhs, 'Barney Fife"
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: trapping beaver in open water
Date: 10 Jan 1999 09:51:16 EST

To some extent it depends on what state you are trapping in, as to what is
legal.  There are several books on the subject, but if you will let me know
what state you are in I will give you the name or names of someone who can
help you.  I myself trap many beaver using foot hold traps.  Have caught as
many as 72 in two weeks.

                                        TrapRJoe



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: trapping beaver in open water
Date: 10 Jan 1999 10:04:21 EST

trapping in missouri 80 miles west of st.louis.
                                        thank
                                       traphand



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Boiling wild water
Date: 10 Jan 1999 10:29:02 -0600

A day or two ago someone (and I forget who, since I have deleted a lot =
of e-mail) posted the flat statement that boiling does not kill anything =
in water and cited being in the medical field as his qualification.  =
This is contradictory to what any water treatment plant operator will =
tell  you.  My brother holds a class B surface water treatment license =
from the state of Texas, which is granted only upon passing a vigorous =
examination and is qualification enough to operate any size water =
treatement plant in the state, and he assures me that boiling water a =
relatively low altitudes for 30 minutes will kill any living critter it =
the water.  At very high altitudes where water boils at significantly =
less than 212 degrees some bugs might not be killed but the addition of =
a small amount of household chlorine bleach will finish the job.  Of =
course,  boiling removes nothing from the water and, in fact, might tend =
to slightly concentrate industrial, agriculture or naturally occuring =
contamination.
Water not otherwise contaminated that has been filtered through a clean =
1 micron filter is free of virtually all bugs and since boiling will =
indeed kill living organisms, my opinion is that wild water can be made =
perfectly safe to drink with minimal effort.
Lanney Ratcliff




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: How to Make a Grommet
Date: 10 Jan 1999 13:42:33 EST

Read "The Marlin Spike Sailor" by Hervey Garrett Smith Great book on canvas
and rope craft.  Should be in any big or lending library



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: trapping beaver in open water
Date: 10 Jan 1999 18:39:31 EST

It's to late now but the National Trappers Assn. Convention was in Columbus,
MO this past summer..
Try calling Stan Berkbuegler at 573-547-2846.  He is the president of the
Missouri Trappers Assn.  He ought to be able to hook you up with a trapper
right where you are.  You shouldn't have any problem with footholds in MO.
I'm in OK just about a 130 miles from MO.
                                TrapRJoe



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Boiling wild water
Date: 10 Jan 1999 18:40:40 EST

didn't say anything, said everything



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Books on sign language
Date: 10 Jan 1999 14:46:04 -0500

And the winner is Terry Landis.  The runner ups were the Lawyers.  Sorry I have only
one book.  You guys must stay up all night waiting for good news.  If terry does not
sent the envelope with all the postage...soon, the I will let the Lawyers know.

Linda  Holley





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water purification
Date: 10 Jan 1999 18:24:01 -0600

TrapR Joe
You may have meant "everything" but your fingers spelled "anything".  I =
have done the same thing........I have proof read a post repeatedly and =
still missed something that completely changed the meaning of what I =
intended to say. =20
I agree that it may be difficult to kill EVERYTHING by boiling, =
particularly at high altitudes.  I hauled bottled spring water all the =
way from Texas to Idaho last summer, hauling it into camp in a burlap =
sack as needed.=20
Lanney Ratcliff=20
-----Original Message-----


>Boiling doesn't kill anything in the water.  There are a thing called
>indospores, but I won't go into that,  no need for a micro bio =
discussion
>here.  I'm in the medical field and believe me nothing is ever =
completely
>safe.  We do the best we can and that's why water is tested often and
>chimicals such as clorine is used in the water.  When it comes to water =
play
>it safe Do Not Put Yourself At Risk.  Just a men ate bad meat in the =
war
>between the states, some got sick some didn't.  Today we would all get =
sick
>and most of us die.  Are bodies just don't have the same immune system. =
 It's
>not exposed to the same microbs, Thank goodness.
> TrapR Joe
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Matchcoat
Date: 10 Jan 1999 21:42:03 -0800

Jody,

Hope you don't find this too disappointing but it is my impression that a match
coat is just a short section of blanket that can be wrapped around you as a
coat/shawl. There isn't anything to make other than deciding how big or small
the blanket needs to be. I'm told that the blanket needs to come from where
ever on your legs you wish it to start at and up and over your head with enough
slack to cinch at the waist with a sash or belt and pin closed at your chest
with room for the arms to move and still have enough extra to pull over your
head if not allowed to drape down the back as a short cape. Confused? I
remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Jody Carlson wrote:

> Can anyone suggest a good pattern available to make a wool matchcoat of the
> 1820s?
>
> In advance I thank you all.
>
> [e-mail]






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 10 Jan 1999 21:51:50 -0800

> Snakeshot wrote:
>
> Yes but when you burn our trees you have what is called
> coals left to cook over. When I was up north when the last
> whisp of smoke was gone so was the fire. In some places
> we can legaly shoot 5 deer a season, that makes up for the
> size.:)
>
> Snakeshot,

Well we get coals from the trees we have up here too, but when the flames die down
I've known camp mates to cook on the same coals for the whole of  week long
Rendezvous before they had to add wood. So you say you can shoot 5 of them deer
critters. Why son, that's just great. Kinda like ground sluicing a covey of quail
up here. Same amount of meat but what's the point? <BG> I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water purification
Date: 10 Jan 1999 22:11:04 -0800



[e-mail] wrote:

> Boiling doesn't kill anything in the water.  There are a thing called
> indospores, but I won't go into that,  no need for a micro bio discussion
> here.

I do not mean any disrespect, but boiling does kill things in water which will make
you sick.  E. coli is a good example of what would be a common waterborne illness in
the US and boiling will kill it as well as most anything in the water including
viruses.  Heat denatures the proteins in the Cellular membranes of bacteria and the
protein coats of viruses, thus killing them.  As for Endospores, they are dormant
spores of bacterium.
They are resistant to heat chemicals and radiation and they are everywhere.  But they
require nutrients, and favorable conditions to become active and begin to multiply.
Boiled water (minus floating debris) is not favorable for bacterial growth even
though it may contain Endospores.  Again they are resistant to heat etc., not
invulnerable so enough boiling will do it.  As anyone who makes home brew knows, your
tap water is also far from sterile.  So, Filter it, Boil it, use Iodine Tabs, Just
Drink it, It won't kill you unless you try to breathe it.

Your most 'onry and disobedient hivernant
Sega




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 11 Jan 1999 03:23:56 EST

In a message dated 99-01-08 18:35:27 EST, you write:

<< Yes but when you burn our trees you have what is called
 coals left to cook over.  >>

That's no Texican exageration either if it's misquite!  We have it here in
Nevada too.  IF you can get past the thorns & don't mind wiping out the edge
on your chain saw, it's some of the best cooking wood.  The only trick is cut
it & work it up green then let it season.  Once it's dried out ready to burn,
a chain saw will just bounce on it.  I haven't tried cutting it with a period
cross cut -- yet, but I'd expect the same performance.

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trapping beaver in open water
Date: 11 Jan 1999 03:23:58 EST

Another question on this subject:

What's the recipe for "castorium" -- hope I spelled that right -- anyhow --
recipe for "beaver bait".

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Austin, Tim" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Tompkins book
Date: 11 Jan 1999 07:45:29 -0600

Terry,

    Ron Harris has a book store and he tries to keep them in stock.  You
can contact him at:       [e-mail]

Good luck. =20
Tim Austin

> ----------
> From:     Terry Landis[SMTP:[e-mail]]
> Sent:     Friday, January 08, 1999 9:11 PM
> To:     Hist_Text@Lists. Xmission. Com
> Subject:     MtMan-List: Tompkins book
>=20
> =A0
> =A0
> would anyone know where to get a copy of Tompkins book "Indian sign
> language"?
>=20
> I thought I'd like to try my "hand" at it.
>=20
> =A0
>=20



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trapping beaver in open water
Date: 11 Jan 1999 10:15:18 EST

They are refering to caster.  The scent glands of the beaver.  They are ground
and sometimes mixed with the oil glands located beside the casters.  I have
also seen them used fresh just by squesing them so the release their contents.

                                        TrapRJoe



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Sam Keller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trapping beaver in open water
Date: 11 Jan 1999 09:36:22 -0800 (PST)

Always did hate trying to use them fresh, gets all over your hands and
the stink lasts forever.




[e-mail] wrote:
>
> They are refering to caster.  The scent glands of the beaver.  They
are ground
> and sometimes mixed with the oil glands located beside the casters.
I have
> also seen them used fresh just by squesing them so the release their
contents.
>
>                                         TrapRJoe
>
>

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jody Carlson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Matchcoat or watchcoat?
Date: 11 Jan 1999 17:44:45 -0600

Capt. Lahti & others,

I evidently picked the wrong word - the garment I was referring to was also
called a watchcoat.

In case that still is wrong, I am looking for a long coat, with cape (or
capes), but no hood as used by the gentry, stagecoach drivers, etc.

Any clues as to good patterns would be appreciated.

In advance I thank you,

Jody
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Matchcoat or watchcoat?
Date: 11 Jan 1999 18:56:55 EST

What I believe you are looking for is a "Greatcoat".

Todd Glover



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Matchcoat or watchcoat?
Date: 11 Jan 1999 16:04:30 -0800

Jody,

Could you by chance be thinking of the "Great Coat"?  This is a long hooded
wrap around coat usually with a shoulder cape out of the 1700's.  If you could
narrow your search to a specific time period or historical person that might
help.  Is this for your persona or just general use?  If you're talking about
cowboy clothing, there are some good cowboy action sites that would be better
able to help you and even advise you where to obtain the article you're looking
for.

Medicine Bear


Jody Carlson wrote:

> Capt. Lahti & others,
>
> I evidently picked the wrong word - the garment I was referring to was also
> called a watchcoat.
>
> In case that still is wrong, I am looking for a long coat, with cape (or
> capes), but no hood as used by the gentry, stagecoach drivers, etc.
>
> Any clues as to good patterns would be appreciated.
>
> In advance I thank you,
>
> Jody
> [e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 11 Jan 1999 19:41:01 -0600

Damn Capt., you boys up north are getting nasty! ! ! Have you been hanging
out with Dennis ?
Pendleton

----------
> From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
> Date: Sunday, January 10, 1999 11:51 PM
>
> > Snakeshot wrote:
> >
> > Yes but when you burn our trees you have what is called
> > coals left to cook over. When I was up north when the last
> > whisp of smoke was gone so was the fire. In some places
> > we can legaly shoot 5 deer a season, that makes up for the
> > size.:)
> >
> > Snakeshot,
>
> Well we get coals from the trees we have up here too, but when the flames
die down
> I've known camp mates to cook on the same coals for the whole of  week
long
> Rendezvous before they had to add wood. So you say you can shoot 5 of
them deer
> critters. Why son, that's just great. Kinda like ground sluicing a covey
of quail
> up here. Same amount of meat but what's the point? <BG> I remain.....
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 11 Jan 1999 20:26:03 -0500

Larry, My Dear Friend and Brother...

:-ppppppppppppppp!!!!!!!!

Dennis

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


>Damn Capt., you boys up north are getting nasty! ! ! Have you been hanging
>out with Dennis ?
>Pendleton
>
>----------
>> From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail]
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
>> Date: Sunday, January 10, 1999 11:51 PM
>>
>> > Snakeshot wrote:
>> >
>> > Yes but when you burn our trees you have what is called
>> > coals left to cook over. When I was up north when the last
>> > whisp of smoke was gone so was the fire. In some places
>> > we can legaly shoot 5 deer a season, that makes up for the
>> > size.:)
>> >
>> > Snakeshot,
>>
>> Well we get coals from the trees we have up here too, but when the flames
>die down
>> I've known camp mates to cook on the same coals for the whole of  week
>long
>> Rendezvous before they had to add wood. So you say you can shoot 5 of
>them deer
>> critters. Why son, that's just great. Kinda like ground sluicing a covey
>of quail
>> up here. Same amount of meat but what's the point? <BG> I remain.....
>>
>> YMOS
>> Capt. Lahti'
>>
>>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Matchcoat or watchcoat?
Date: 11 Jan 1999 18:41:35 -0600

Jody,

Green River Forge published a Riding Coat Pattern which sounds like what you
are looking for.  There are patterns for both men and women's versions.
Can be
made with one, multiple or no shoulder capes.

It is a long coat with split tail designed to be made of wool.

Call Lance Grabowski he's the only one I know who has them  available.
505-471-0011

John...

At 05:44 PM 1/11/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Capt. Lahti & others,
>
>I evidently picked the wrong word - the garment I was referring to was also
>called a watchcoat.
>
>In case that still is wrong, I am looking for a long coat, with cape (or
>capes), but no hood as used by the gentry, stagecoach drivers, etc.
>
>Any clues as to good patterns would be appreciated.
>
>In advance I thank you,
>
>Jody
>[e-mail]
>
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: RE: Beaver castor
Date: 11 Jan 1999 19:55:44 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE3D9C.5FFF1E20
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Castor is a strong smelling oily substance obtained from the sexual =
glands
of the beaver. This substance is used as an attractant for trapping, and =
will attract not only beaver but nearly every furbearer that roams the =
continent.
Often, in the spring a beaver will come out of the water onto the bank, =
scratch up=20
a little dirt, then deposit some castor onto it. Every beaver traveling =
near that area
will then stop and deposit there own castor there.
This scent is the strongest and longest lasting of any animal musk or =
scent.
I've read where mountain men reffered to it as "Dab". I would assume =
that this=20
was because all they had to do to catch beaver was "dab" a small amount
 of castor on a twig and then place a trap in shallow water underneath =
it=20
so the beaver when attempting to smell the castor would place there foot
in the trap.  Of course, if the mountain man found a place where no =
other=20
trappers had been, the beaver would swim rite up to em' snd they would =
then=20
just club em'. (Thats what i've read anyway.)

From the northwoods
        Tony

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE3D9C.5FFF1E20
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Castor is a strong smelling oily substance obtained =
from the=20
sexual glands</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>of the beaver. This substance is used as an =
attractant for=20
trapping, and will attract not only beaver but nearly every furbearer =
that roams=20
the continent.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Often, in the spring a beaver will come out of the =
water onto=20
the bank, scratch up </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>a little dirt, then deposit some castor onto it. =
Every beaver=20
traveling near that area</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>will then stop and deposit there own castor=20
there.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>This scent is the strongest and longest lasting of =
any animal=20
musk or scent.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I've read where mountain men reffered to it as=20
"Dab". I would assume that this </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>was because all they had to do to catch beaver was=20
"dab" a small amount</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2> of castor on a twig and then place a trap in =
shallow=20
water underneath it </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>so the beaver when attempting to smell the castor =
would place=20
there foot</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>in the trap.  Of course, if the mountain man =
found a=20
place where no other </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>trappers had been, the beaver would swim rite up to =
em' snd=20
they would then </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>just club em'. (Thats what i've read =
anyway.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>From the northwoods</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2>       =20
Tony</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE3D9C.5FFF1E20--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Matchcoat or watchcoat?
Date: 11 Jan 1999 18:39:25 -0800

Jody,

I suspect what you are looking for is a Great Coat which was worn well into the
Rendezvous era. It usually has a short cape and is quit long. It is big but
well fitted unlike the ever popular capote as made today. Several outfitters
offer the pattern and Jas. Townsend and Sons is just one that offers a pattern.
They advertise in the ML mags and have a web page that can be found by doing a
search. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Jody Carlson wrote:

> Capt. Lahti & others,
>
> I evidently picked the wrong word - the garment I was referring to was also
> called a watchcoat.
>
> In case that still is wrong, I am looking for a long coat, with cape (or
> capes), but no hood as used by the gentry, stagecoach drivers, etc.
>
> Any clues as to good patterns would be appreciated.
>
> In advance I thank you,
>
> Jody
> [e-mail]






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Matchcoat or watchcoat?
Date: 11 Jan 1999 21:49:43 EST

 Jody, Here is a link to a pattern provider:
<A HREF="http://www.jastown.com/">Jas. Townsend & Son, Inc. Home Page</A>
Hope this helps.  Ralph Rosen aka 'Barney Fife'



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: tinfoil
Date: 11 Jan 1999 21:15:52 -0600

Question:  Is true tinfoil available? =20
Lanney Ratcliff




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 11 Jan 1999 20:35:53 -0800

Pendlton,

You mean ol' Dennis Miles? Yea, he's our hired gun, mouth piece, Brigade
Lawyer! Last time I talked to him, he said he could whup any five Texicans!
<BG>I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

yellow rose/pendleton wrote:

> Damn Capt., you boys up north are getting nasty! ! ! Have you been hanging
> out with Dennis ?
> Pendleton
>
> ----------
> > From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
> > To: [e-mail]
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
> > Date: Sunday, January 10, 1999 11:51 PM
> >
> > > Snakeshot wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes but when you burn our trees you have what is called
> > > coals left to cook over. When I was up north when the last
> > > whisp of smoke was gone so was the fire. In some places
> > > we can legaly shoot 5 deer a season, that makes up for the
> > > size.:)
> > >
> > > Snakeshot,
> >
> > Well we get coals from the trees we have up here too, but when the flames
> die down
> > I've known camp mates to cook on the same coals for the whole of  week
> long
> > Rendezvous before they had to add wood. So you say you can shoot 5 of
> them deer
> > critters. Why son, that's just great. Kinda like ground sluicing a covey
> of quail
> > up here. Same amount of meat but what's the point? <BG> I remain.....
> >
> > YMOS
> > Capt. Lahti'
> >
> >






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sidney Porter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: staying warm
Date: 11 Jan 1999 23:28:05 -0800

I'll bet she loved this one!




>On really cold nights, I plug into my wife, she's 240 volt
>forget the rocks
>Joe





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sidney Porter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 11 Jan 1999 23:35:34 -0800

If we just had some lodge pole pine here in central Texas... sigh.
-----Original Message-----


>Hummm,
>
>I'll bet them cottonwoods are bigger than a California redwood!
>Bein' Texas an' all... :o)
>
>Medicine Bear
>
>Ted A Hart wrote:
>
>> Hell yes we have trees in Texas! :)  I live in Austin and there are alot
>> of cottonwoods, mesquite, oaks around here...you'll even find willow
>> trees near creeks and the like.  Out west Texas you'll run into what's
>> more typically considered Texas...the LLano Estacado..the Staked
>> Plains...more western...you'll run into Marfa (where the so-called lights
>> float) where it's more like a desert with mountains...almost like Santa
>> Fe...out in East Texas it's alot of hills and pine trees with an
>> occassional oak tree...down south Texas it's more mesquite and scrubby
>> trees...alot more shorter than it is else where.  We have everything that
>> USA has to offer although I think we need to work on our mountains :)
>> Need to make 'em bigger!
>>
>> Ted
>>
>> ___________________________________________________________________
>> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: MtMan-List: [e-mail] (daniel j anderson): snow(hide tanning)
Date: 12 Jan 1999 01:28:04 -0500

got this note from danial anderson---he is in who's who in buckskins and
also an member of the AMM with a number less than 100---a very special
person to me as well as to others---I sent him a thing from the AMM chat
and also from MlMl chat on hide tanning and here was his response---
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]
--------- Begin forwarded message ----------

hawk,
we still have over a foot of snow and it is still drifting.
The temperature above thirty degrees today,supposed to get freezing rain
and snow tonight and tomorrow.
daughter didn't get any snow and she is only 50 miles south of here.
this is beginning to remind me of the time I spent in the high Artic,high
winds and drifting snow.

I have been thinking about that Mountain Man type guy who is into tanning
hides, he has a lot of learning to do Hawk.
Tell him that tanning hides is Squaw work.Them old trappers may have
stretched a beaver plew with a willow hoop,and scraped a little fat and
flesh off,but mostly they hunted and trapped and kept a couple of squaws
warm at night.
George Pochell [half wild]and I tanned 3 large Buffalo hides one time
when we were young and didnt know no better.

We decided to set the hair on the hides before we tanned them ,Well we
had to get a chain hoist to lift them wet hides out of that tank, then I
tanned them with acid worked real good , jhardest work I ever done
softening and working
those Buffalo hides.Steve used then in that big Tipi for over 15
years.They were mighty soft and warm to sleep on .
When I was in Alaska the Eskimo women [squaws] {Kloochynews}used urine tu
tan hides with ,then they would chew them to soften them.
I bought some hides from some Eskimoes up near Kotezbu and had a Eskimo
woman make a parka ,pants, boots ,mittens and a rain suit . The rain suit
was made from walrus intestines.

Then there is old trapper John Pharris , he is still living
and he knows more about about trapping and tanning hides ,than most of
the experts and historians.

Keep those letters and jokes coming ,I may not get out of the house till
spring.

                                        Dan


___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 12 Jan 1999 07:28:35 -0500

Last time I talked to him, he said he could whup any five Texicans!
><BG>


Capt.
,
 Did I say FIVE Texicans??? Well, that must be takin in account the cup a
coffee in my left hand...Or mebby I was talkin' about my poor Sainted
Grandma...Don't rightly remember...<BG>

Dennis

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Ted A Hart)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [e-mail] (daniel j anderson):
Date: 12 Jan 1999 08:57:36 EST

Hi,

I would like to ask your opinion on the usage of the word squaw.  It is
VERY offensive to Indian women....in fact it's an corruption of a French
word.  When Indian men were referring to women they didn't use the word
squaw..they used "women" like in women's work not squaw work.  IF you say
that word to any Indian woman today they'll more than likely pick up a
two-by-four and chase you down the highway and call in her relatives to
get you as well :)  Just my honest opinion.

Ted

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [e-mail] (daniel j anderson):             snow(hide tanning)
Date: 12 Jan 1999 07:34:28 -0700

I too do not like the term squaw, but............many journals of military
officers in the 1800's use the term often. They also mention Indian men
using the term.
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Squaws
Date: 12 Jan 1999 15:52:46 EST

After reading this thread, I talked to a friend ( a Cherokee woman), and she
was taught by her elders that a 'squaw' was essentially a prostitute, whether
on the res or brought into rendezvous or traded among the men of the tribe(s).
She was taught that the term is NOT NECESSARILY,  derrogatory, as it may be
truthful i.e.  If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a
duck, its a duck.  Remember that many of these women (squaws)  were proud of
their profession and served their employers (pimps?) well.  The point is,
watch who you are using the term towards; as its basically the same as calling
a woman today a 'ho'.      'Barney Fife'



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: re: greatcoats
Date: 12 Jan 1999 15:27:00 -0600

> >I evidently picked the wrong word - the garment I was referring to was also
> >called a watchcoat.
>
> >In case that still is wrong, I am looking for a long coat, with cape (or
> >capes), but no hood as used by the gentry, stagecoach drivers, etc.
>
> >Any clues as to good patterns would be appreciated.
>
> What you are looking for is a pattern for a greatcoat.  Try Rocking Horse

Farms, couldn't find the address, or The book "Tidings of the Eighteenth Century"

> by Beth Gilgun. I think there is a chapter on greatcoats with instructions on

> making them.  An alternative is  to get a copy of Smoke and Fire news, again no

> address, they have lots of ads for patterns for 18Th Cent cloathing.

> J.D.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Don Neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: guns
Date: 12 Jan 1999 17:08:19 -0600

I was offered a 1827 Hoppers Farrey Flintlock rifle in good condition
for  $450.00 is this a goog buy?




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Citizenship Issues for Mountain Men
Date: 12 Jan 1999 16:59:08 EST

Many of the mountain men in the southwest routinely changed their citizenship
from American to Mexican.  This was because it was illegal for non-citizens to
hunt in the New Mexican territories.  With the arrival of Kearny, this
probably shifted. I know there were problems with the Spanish land grant
system...many landholders lost their claims when the Yanks arrived (sorry, I'm
English).  I am trying to find out about the inheritance laws of the time:
e.g., when Ceran St. Vrain died (and son Vincente), all his holdings and
wealth went to his nephew, Benedict, an American citizen in St.Louis.  Does
anyone know anything about the land and inheritance laws of the 1850's to
18'70's, or at least know a resource? Thanks a bunch.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Don Neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: guns
Date: 12 Jan 1999 17:18:18 -0600

I found an 1827  Harpers Ferry flintlock in good condition. What would
be a good price for it?




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Don Neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: guns
Date: 12 Jan 1999 17:22:53 -0600

I donnot know if this is e-mailing or not? I have found an 1827  Harpers
Ferry flintlock in good condition, what is it worth.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: greatcoat
Date: 12 Jan 1999 16:47:53 -0600




>
>
> >I evidently picked the wrong word - the garment I was referring to was also
> >called a watchcoat.
>
> >Any clues as to good patterns would be appreciated.
>

I just happened on this URL,    with references
http://www.netins.net/showcase/nwta/couriers/11-96/watchcoats.html

Ain't life grand when things like this happen. ;-)
J.D.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Squaws
Date: 12 Jan 1999 18:37:08 EST


In a message dated 1/12/99 12:56:56 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<was taught by her elders that a 'squaw' was essentially a prostitute,
whether
on the res or brought into rendezvous or traded among the men of the tribe(s).
She was taught that the term is NOT NECESSARILY,  derrogatory, as it may be
truthful i.e.  If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a
duck, its a duck.  Remember that many of these women (squaws)  were proud of
their profession and served their employers (pimps?) well.  The point is,
watch who you are using the term towards; as its basically the same as calling
a woman today a 'ho'.    >>

Here we go again.  My dictionary defines 'squaw' as.... "An American Indian
woman; among Indians, any woman; a female." When I use the term thats what I
mean and nothing else.  I've read many pioneer emigrant diaries/journals and
books written by decent people who used the word 'Squaw' .  So I don't
hesitate to use the term.
( The word is of Algonquian origin).
            Dick





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Paul Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 12 Jan 1999 17:45:20 -0600

Dennis, Dennis, Dennis.  I am glad to have you as a friend as you are
constant proof our good Lord has a sense of humor when it comes to how
Yankees turn out.  One of the whupped Texicans-Pablo
-----Original Message-----


>Last time I talked to him, he said he could whup any five Texicans!
>><BG>
>
>
>Capt.
>,
> Did I say FIVE Texicans??? Well, that must be takin in account the cup a
>coffee in my left hand...Or mebby I was talkin' about my poor Sainted
>Grandma...Don't rightly remember...<BG>
>
>Dennis
>
>   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Squaws
Date: 12 Jan 1999 16:02:02 -0800

Hey Dick:
    Did you ever think that you and I and your dictionary are to god damn
old. If you use that word around my area you had better duck!  :)
Gail
============================
-----Original Message-----


>
>In a message dated 1/12/99 12:56:56 PM, [e-mail] writes:
>
><<was taught by her elders that a 'squaw' was essentially a prostitute,
>whether
>on the res or brought into rendezvous or traded among the men of the
tribe(s).
>She was taught that the term is NOT NECESSARILY,  derrogatory, as it may be
>truthful i.e.  If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a
>duck, its a duck.  Remember that many of these women (squaws)  were proud
of
>their profession and served their employers (pimps?) well.  The point is,
>watch who you are using the term towards; as its basically the same as
calling
>a woman today a 'ho'.    >>
>
>Here we go again.  My dictionary defines 'squaw' as.... "An American Indian
>woman; among Indians, any woman; a female." When I use the term thats what
I
>mean and nothing else.  I've read many pioneer emigrant diaries/journals
and
>books written by decent people who used the word 'Squaw' .  So I don't
>hesitate to use the term.
>( The word is of Algonquian origin).
>            Dick
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john c. funk,jr" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Squaws
Date: 12 Jan 1999 16:16:23 -0800


-----Original Message-----


>
>In a message dated 1/12/99 12:56:56 PM, [e-mail] writes:
>
><<was taught by her elders that a 'squaw' was essentially a prostitute,
>whether
>on the res or brought into rendezvous or traded among the men of the
tribe(s).
>She was taught that the term is NOT NECESSARILY,  derrogatory, as it may be
>truthful i.e.  If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a
>duck, its a duck.  Remember that many of these women (squaws)  were proud
of
>their profession and served their employers (pimps?) well.  The point is,
>watch who you are using the term towards; as its basically the same as
calling
>a woman today a 'ho'.    >>
>
>Here we go again.  My dictionary defines 'squaw' as.... "An American Indian
>woman; among Indians, any woman; a female." When I use the term thats what
I
>mean and nothing else.  I've read many pioneer emigrant diaries/journals
and
>books written by decent people who used the word 'Squaw' .  So I don't
>hesitate to use the term.
>( The word is of Algonquian origin).
>            Dick
>
>
>


Whether or not the term "squaw" was of Native American origin or not, it is
still very offensive to some Native Americans is this day and age.

John Funk




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Squaws
Date: 12 Jan 1999 16:15:37 -0800

This is evidently an area for personal preference, but just as "nigger" was
a readily used term (as in Mark Twain), describing a matter-of-fact social
situation and station of life, so was "squaw" (as far as I can tell), along
with "Greaser", "Buck" and so forth. The fact that people freely made these
distinctions 150 years ago, along with keeping slaves and shooting Indians
on sight, doesn't make them acceptable today. If one's listeners are of the
type who understand when a historical term is used without rancor, fine, but
be prepared for a fight if we use these terms around racial groups who have
achieved a higher standing in modern society.
Just my Opinion.
Pat Quilter.

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 12:53 PM


After reading this thread, I talked to a friend ( a Cherokee woman), and she
was taught by her elders that a 'squaw' was essentially a prostitute,
whether
on the res or brought into rendezvous or traded among the men of the
tribe(s).
She was taught that the term is NOT NECESSARILY,  derrogatory, as it may be
truthful i.e.  If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a
duck, its a duck.  Remember that many of these women (squaws)  were proud of
their profession and served their employers (pimps?) well.  The point is,
watch who you are using the term towards; as its basically the same as
calling
a woman today a 'ho'.      'Barney Fife'



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bishnow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Boiling wild water
Date: 12 Jan 1999 18:25:54 -0600

Lanney Ratcliff wrote:
>
>
> Water not otherwise contaminated that has been filtered through a clean 1 micron filter is free of virtually all bugs and since boiling will indeed kill living organisms, my opinion is that wild water can be made perfectly safe to drink with minimal effort.
> Lanney Ratcliff
Lanney,
As you know I am in the food industry(Turkey). and the U.S.D.A.
will tell you that 160 degrees fahrenhiet for 1 minute will kill
any organism that may inhabit food.

Snakeshot



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 12 Jan 1999 16:25:20 -0800


--------------05E852641E4B98788782E094
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Dennis Miles wrote:

> Capt.
> ,
>  Did I say FIVE Texicans??? Well, that must be takin in account the cup a
> coffee in my left hand...Or mebby I was talkin' about my poor Sainted
> Grandma...Don't rightly remember...<BG>

Dennis,

I sure thought you said FIVE but it was probably more. I do remember you
saying you could do it with a cup of tea in one hand and a silk scarf in the
other or was it your Sainted Granny you said could do it. Who knows for sure,
you allus was taken to understatements. And as I remember you were in your
cups so it was hard to understand what you were saying. Lay'in on your face
like you was. <BG>I remain.......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>
>



--------------05E852641E4B98788782E094
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>


<P>Dennis Miles wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Capt.
<BR>,
<BR> Did I say FIVE Texicans??? Well, that must be takin in account
the cup a
<BR>coffee in my left hand...Or mebby I was talkin' about my poor Sainted
<BR>Grandma...Don't rightly remember...<BG></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dennis,

<P>I sure thought you said FIVE but it was probably more. I do remember
you saying you could do it with a cup of tea in one hand and a silk scarf
in the other or was it your Sainted Granny you said could do it. Who knows
for sure, you allus was taken to understatements. And as I remember you
were in your cups so it was hard to understand what you were saying. Lay'in
on your face like you was. <BG>I remain.......

<P>YMOS
<BR>Capt. Lahti'
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BR><A HREF="http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1"></A> </BLOCKQUOTE>
 </HTML>

--------------05E852641E4B98788782E094--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Squaws
Date: 12 Jan 1999 19:44:16 EST

Pat, Thanks for that perspective. How about some input from the members of
this list that are of NATIVE descent?  Would it not be important to consider
the source when you consider definitions? My thinking in this regard it that I
personally would consider the word of the native Americans before that of a
dictionary that was most likely compiled, edited and published by European
descendants.  (and FYI, the word was not included in the 1828 Websters at all,
but in the new M-W they say it was used DISPARAGINGLY as a term for a woman)
RR alias Barney Fife




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Richard Pickert <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Squaws
Date: 12 Jan 1999 16:54:10 -0800 (PST)


I have read with interest this dicussion. I belive that historicly the
term was used like (nigger) and not ment to cause harm but that today
one should be very careful abut its use. I have a friend in TX that is
half Navjo and she takes real offence to the term!




[e-mail] wrote:
>
> Pat, Thanks for that perspective. How about some input from the
members of
> this list that are of NATIVE descent?  Would it not be important to
consider
> the source when you consider definitions? My thinking in this regard
it that I
> personally would consider the word of the native Americans before
that of a
> dictionary that was most likely compiled, edited and published by
European
> descendants.  (and FYI, the word was not included in the 1828
Websters at all,
> but in the new M-W they say it was used DISPARAGINGLY as a term for
a woman)
> RR alias Barney Fife
>
>
>

==


      Rick(Walks in the Night)Pickert


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 12 Jan 1999 19:48:17 -0600

Yeah I was talking about the same Dennis. Now being of semi-sound mind, I
got no hankerin to wad-up with Dennis but if'n him and Lanney was to go to
it, I'd pay to watch.
Pendleton

----------
> From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
> Date: Monday, January 11, 1999 10:35 PM
>
> Pendlton,
>
> You mean ol' Dennis Miles? Yea, he's our hired gun, mouth piece, Brigade
> Lawyer! Last time I talked to him, he said he could whup any five
Texicans!
> <BG>I remain.....
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
> yellow rose/pendleton wrote:
>
> > Damn Capt., you boys up north are getting nasty! ! ! Have you been
hanging
> > out with Dennis ?
> > Pendleton
> >
> > ----------
> > > From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
> > > To: [e-mail]
> > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
> > > Date: Sunday, January 10, 1999 11:51 PM
> > >
> > > > Snakeshot wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Yes but when you burn our trees you have what is called
> > > > coals left to cook over. When I was up north when the last
> > > > whisp of smoke was gone so was the fire. In some places
> > > > we can legaly shoot 5 deer a season, that makes up for the
> > > > size.:)
> > > >
> > > > Snakeshot,
> > >
> > > Well we get coals from the trees we have up here too, but when the
flames
> > die down
> > > I've known camp mates to cook on the same coals for the whole of
week
> > long
> > > Rendezvous before they had to add wood. So you say you can shoot 5 of
> > them deer
> > > critters. Why son, that's just great. Kinda like ground sluicing a
covey
> > of quail
> > > up here. Same amount of meat but what's the point? <BG> I remain.....
> > >
> > > YMOS
> > > Capt. Lahti'
> > >
> > >
>
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 12 Jan 1999 19:52:19 -0600

Pablo,
  You reckon it was his sense of humor or he just got a phone call while he
was in the middle of creating them Yankees?
Pendleton

----------
> From: Paul Jones <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
> Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 5:45 PM
>
> Dennis, Dennis, Dennis.  I am glad to have you as a friend as you are
> constant proof our good Lord has a sense of humor when it comes to how
> Yankees turn out.  One of the whupped Texicans-Pablo
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dennis Miles <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 6:29 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
>
>
> >Last time I talked to him, he said he could whup any five Texicans!
> >><BG>
> >
> >
> >Capt.
> >,
> > Did I say FIVE Texicans??? Well, that must be takin in account the cup
a
> >coffee in my left hand...Or mebby I was talkin' about my poor Sainted
> >Grandma...Don't rightly remember...<BG>
> >
> >Dennis
> >
> >   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
> >          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
> >  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
> >    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
> >
> >
> >
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 12 Jan 1999 20:36:04 -0500

Capt'n,

 I wasn't in my cups, the Earth had one of those "gravity fluxes" and I just
lost my balance...
Pendleton, my dear friend, Lanney and I discussed that in Mo. last
year...Decided we would just join forces and whup up on someone smaller
(approx 98% of the world population) as we was afeard  of mebby bruisin one
another....We are delicate floweres, y' know...

D

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1


>Yeah I was talking about the same Dennis. Now being of semi-sound mind, I
>got no hankerin to wad-up with Dennis but if'n him and Lanney was to go to
>it, I'd pay to watch.
>Pendleton





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Squaws
Date: 12 Jan 1999 19:20:29 -0700

-----Original Message-----


>After reading this thread, I talked to a friend ( a Cherokee woman), and
she
>was taught by her elders that a 'squaw' was essentially a prostitute,
whether
>on the res or brought into rendezvous or traded among the men of the
tribe(s).
>She was taught that the term is NOT NECESSARILY,  derrogatory, as it may be
>truthful i.e.  If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a
>duck, its a duck.  Remember that many of these women (squaws)  were proud
of
>their profession and served their employers (pimps?) well.  The point is,
>watch who you are using the term towards; as its basically the same as
calling
>a woman today a 'ho'.      'Barney Fife'
>
_______________________________________________

This is interesting, what some of our members think or have been told by
others on the word "squaw" ?

Some are referring to a squaw as a "prostitute", others are not sure and are
quoting the dictionary defining a 'squaw' as.... "An American Indian woman;
among Indians, any woman; a female."

Again very interesting, the same as the term "nigger", as a bad name called
of the black race, with a little research you'll find these terms are later
than you would think.

For example: the term for one that works long hours, in hard conditions, for
little to no pay and has no chance of making a better like was referred to
as "working like a nigger" (color had nothing to do with it in pre-colonial
dock locations), whether in Ireland, England, France or the New World, this
was the term used by many countries, when referring to the poor laborer in
controlled conditions. The Irish during the "Potatoe Wars" were referred to
as, poor as niggers (poor as those working in the worst of conditions like
coal miners, also referred to by this name).

I was in my early thirties before I found out that my Grandmother was a half
breed, a Lenni-Lenape. It was a family secret in Pennsylvania because of the
feelings that Native American's were worthless, thieves and drunks living
off the whites. This is an old story of many families living on the East
coast, to protect these people, the subject was never brought up and in time
the individual was considered just another white. In my case I always
thought my Grandmother was Amish or Quaker, very quite and never talked
about her family.

After finding out about this, (my Grandmother was getting up in years and
had moved from the farm to one of her son's places in Pennsylvania), I made
a trip east from Colorado to carefully inquire about the unknown. Turns out
that her mother was a "squaw", married to a member of the tribe - not by
choice, as she was taken at a young age from Penn State, PA and moved to
northeastern Ohio in and before late 1900. She was called a "squaw" because
of her unrulely nature and not trying to be like the others, "being a women
of the night" had nothing to do with anything in those days, she was just a
white in a bad situtation and having trouble fitting in.

I have read of similiar situtitations and the person was called or referred
to as a "squaw", so I would think that in later years the term has changed
as it was passed down or used by other groups, and of course Hollywood
hasn't helped anything either.

This is only one part of the story that I personally can relate to for the
"term" used now and in earlier times, in one small location. I'm sure that
in different area's the term "squaw' has another meaning to a person's
family or friends. Look what we call the Mexicans and what they call the
whites, different in Mexico than in Iowa, and again look what Hollywood has
done with the name calling.

Hope this helps a little for what is is worth, and by the way my Grandmother
was not much help as she was only two when her mother escaped and walked
some 600 miles in December back to her home carrying her to PA, the story is
recorded at the State House in Harrisburg.

The town people in Shippensburg had very little to do with either one as she
was a "squaw with a half white daughter", figures !!!

So much for my little knowledge on the subject.

Buck Conner




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 12 Jan 1999 19:35:33 -0700

Paul & Dennis,

When I moved to Colorado in 1964, everyone was complaining about "them damn
eastern low life jurk's moving in", didn't set well being from PA.

After about thirty years as a resident of Colorado and the Calf. and Texas
boys were moving in (large numbers) the terms have changed, its now: "I
rather have a sister workin' in a whore house than a neighbor from Calif. or
Texas".

So I can see how Old Dennis can stir the nest with the Texas boys.  Good
luck guys its all in fun, be cool Lanney.

Buck
___________________________________
-----Original Message-----


>Dennis, Dennis, Dennis.  I am glad to have you as a friend as you are
>constant proof our good Lord has a sense of humor when it comes to how
>Yankees turn out.  One of the whupped Texicans-Pablo
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dennis Miles <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 6:29 AM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
>
>
>>Last time I talked to him, he said he could whup any five Texicans!
>>><BG>
>>
>>
>>Capt.
>>,
>> Did I say FIVE Texicans??? Well, that must be takin in account the cup a
>>coffee in my left hand...Or mebby I was talkin' about my poor Sainted
>>Grandma...Don't rightly remember...<BG>
>>
>>Dennis
>>
>>   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>>  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>>    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>>
>>
>>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 12 Jan 1999 20:56:55 -0600

As a sixth generation Texican I can fade the heat from a village smithy =
and an international sugar trader.
Lanney
-----Original Message-----


>Paul & Dennis,
>
>When I moved to Colorado in 1964, everyone was complaining about "them =
damn
>eastern low life jurk's moving in", didn't set well being from PA.
>
>After about thirty years as a resident of Colorado and the Calf. and =
Texas
>boys were moving in (large numbers) the terms have changed, its now: "I
>rather have a sister workin' in a whore house than a neighbor from =
Calif. or
>Texas".
>
>So I can see how Old Dennis can stir the nest with the Texas boys.  =
Good
>luck guys its all in fun, be cool Lanney.
>
>Buck
>___________________________________
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Paul Jones <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 4:44 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
>
>
>>Dennis, Dennis, Dennis.  I am glad to have you as a friend as you are
>>constant proof our good Lord has a sense of humor when it comes to how
>>Yankees turn out.  One of the whupped Texicans-Pablo
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Dennis Miles <[e-mail]>
>>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>>Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 6:29 AM
>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
>>
>>
>>>Last time I talked to him, he said he could whup any five Texicans!
>>>><BG>
>>>
>>>
>>>Capt.
>>>,
>>> Did I say FIVE Texicans??? Well, that must be takin in account the =
cup a
>>>coffee in my left hand...Or mebby I was talkin' about my poor Sainted
>>>Grandma...Don't rightly remember...<BG>
>>>
>>>Dennis
>>>
>>>   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>>>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>>>  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>>>    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 12 Jan 1999 19:57:23 -0700

Very good Lanney, I like your response and as Dennis would probably say your
size says something too. What was the story about the shoe box ????

Buck
__________________
-----Original Message-----


As a sixth generation Texican I can fade the heat from a village smithy and
an international sugar trader.
Lanney
-----Original Message-----


>Paul & Dennis,
>
>When I moved to Colorado in 1964, everyone was complaining about "them damn
>eastern low life jurk's moving in", didn't set well being from PA.
>
>After about thirty years as a resident of Colorado and the Calf. and Texas
>boys were moving in (large numbers) the terms have changed, its now: "I
>rather have a sister workin' in a whore house than a neighbor from Calif.
or
>Texas".
>
>So I can see how Old Dennis can stir the nest with the Texas boys.  Good
>luck guys its all in fun, be cool Lanney.
>
>Buck
>___________________________________
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Paul Jones <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 4:44 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
>
>
>>Dennis, Dennis, Dennis.  I am glad to have you as a friend as you are
>>constant proof our good Lord has a sense of humor when it comes to how
>>Yankees turn out.  One of the whupped Texicans-Pablo
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Dennis Miles <[e-mail]>
>>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>>Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 6:29 AM
>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
>>
>>
>>>Last time I talked to him, he said he could whup any five Texicans!
>>>><BG>
>>>
>>>
>>>Capt.
>>>,
>>> Did I say FIVE Texicans??? Well, that must be takin in account the cup a
>>>coffee in my left hand...Or mebby I was talkin' about my poor Sainted
>>>Grandma...Don't rightly remember...<BG>
>>>
>>>Dennis
>>>
>>>   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>>>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>>>  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>>>    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns
Date: 12 Jan 1999 19:40:32 +0000

Don, could be a good price?  Who made it?  Is it .54 or .58 caliber, in
other words is it an accurate model?  The originals were .54 caliber.
Hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns
Date: 12 Jan 1999 20:06:46 -0700

I read years ago the originals were .52 cal. and early reproductions were
.54 or .58 !

Buck
-----Original Message-----


>Don, could be a good price?  Who made it?  Is it .54 or .58 caliber, in
>other words is it an accurate model?  The originals were .54 caliber.
>Hardtack
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 12 Jan 1999 22:00:34 -0600

Yep ! That would be us. We're all three about as delicate as a anvil.
Pardon us folks for  this rambling but really we are just funnin. Dennis
you must allow for the rotation of the earth. What were you thinking?
Pendleton

----------
> From: Dennis Miles <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
> Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 7:36 PM
>
> Capt'n,
>
>  I wasn't in my cups, the Earth had one of those "gravity fluxes" and I
just
> lost my balance...
> Pendleton, my dear friend, Lanney and I discussed that in Mo. last
> year...Decided we would just join forces and whup up on someone smaller
> (approx 98% of the world population) as we was afeard  of mebby bruisin
one
> another....We are delicate floweres, y' know...
>
> D
>
>    "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>   Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>     http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>
>
> >Yeah I was talking about the same Dennis. Now being of semi-sound mind,
I
> >got no hankerin to wad-up with Dennis but if'n him and Lanney was to go
to
> >it, I'd pay to watch.
> >Pendleton
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 12 Jan 1999 21:50:52 -0600

I'm at a loss....what shoe box?
Lanney
-----Original Message-----


>Very good Lanney, I like your response and as Dennis would probably say =
your
>size says something too. What was the story about the shoe box ????
>
>Buck
>__________________
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 7:52 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
>
>
>As a sixth generation Texican I can fade the heat from a village smithy =
and
>an international sugar trader.
>Lanney
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Barry Conner <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 8:45 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
>
>
>>Paul & Dennis,
>>
>>When I moved to Colorado in 1964, everyone was complaining about "them =
damn
>>eastern low life jurk's moving in", didn't set well being from PA.
>>
>>After about thirty years as a resident of Colorado and the Calf. and =
Texas
>>boys were moving in (large numbers) the terms have changed, its now: =
"I
>>rather have a sister workin' in a whore house than a neighbor from =
Calif.
>or
>>Texas".
>>
>>So I can see how Old Dennis can stir the nest with the Texas boys.  =
Good
>>luck guys its all in fun, be cool Lanney.
>>
>>Buck
>>___________________________________
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Paul Jones <[e-mail]>
>>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>>Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 4:44 PM
>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
>>
>>
>>>Dennis, Dennis, Dennis.  I am glad to have you as a friend as you are
>>>constant proof our good Lord has a sense of humor when it comes to =
how
>>>Yankees turn out.  One of the whupped Texicans-Pablo
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Dennis Miles <[e-mail]>
>>>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>>>Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 6:29 AM
>>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
>>>
>>>
>>>>Last time I talked to him, he said he could whup any five Texicans!
>>>>><BG>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Capt.
>>>>,
>>>> Did I say FIVE Texicans??? Well, that must be takin in account the =
cup a
>>>>coffee in my left hand...Or mebby I was talkin' about my poor =
Sainted
>>>>Grandma...Don't rightly remember...<BG>
>>>>
>>>>Dennis
>>>>
>>>>   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>>>>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>>>>  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>>>>    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 12 Jan 1999 23:44:54 -0500

Damn Pendleton...
 T' wrent my fault I lost my balance...Lanny was forcin' me to drink that
Meskin Likker...Messed up my gravitational timin'...  You know, you Texicans
are right, after a half gallon or so, it makes one rather melow....<G>
D

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1


>Yep ! That would be us. We're all three about as delicate as a anvil.
>Pardon us folks for  this rambling but really we are just funnin. Dennis
>you must allow for the rotation of the earth. What were you thinking?
>Pendleton
>
>----------
>> From: Dennis Miles <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail]
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
>> Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 7:36 PM
>>
>> Capt'n,
>>
>>  I wasn't in my cups, the Earth had one of those "gravity fluxes" and I
>just
>> lost my balance...
>> Pendleton, my dear friend, Lanney and I discussed that in Mo. last
>> year...Decided we would just join forces and whup up on someone smaller
>> (approx 98% of the world population) as we was afeard  of mebby bruisin
>one
>> another....We are delicate floweres, y' know...
>>
>> D
>>
>>    "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>>   Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>>     http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>>
>>
>> >Yeah I was talking about the same Dennis. Now being of semi-sound mind,
>I
>> >got no hankerin to wad-up with Dennis but if'n him and Lanney was to go
>to
>> >it, I'd pay to watch.
>> >Pendleton
>>
>>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns
Date: 12 Jan 1999 23:55:32 -0500

if you are not interested please send me info offline i might be
interested depending on what it really is and all---undoubtedly you mean
a harpers ferry 1827--your spelling is almost as bad as mine---(only
funning you)  let me know whats happening or give me a call and i will
give you what information i have available in reference to value and
such---not a bad buy if the condition is average or above---is it a rifle
or a short musket---has it been cut down or is it full length---

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:08:19 -0600 Don Neighbors <[e-mail]>
writes:
>I was offered a 1827 Hoppers Farrey Flintlock rifle in good condition
>for  $450.00 is this a goog buy?
>
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sidney Porter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
Date: 12 Jan 1999 23:14:43 -0800

They're sure givin' us Texans a hard time.
Sidney


-----Original Message-----


I'm at a loss....what shoe box?
Lanney
-----Original Message-----


>Very good Lanney, I like your response and as Dennis would probably say
your
>size says something too. What was the story about the shoe box ????
>
>Buck
>__________________
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 7:52 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
>
>
>As a sixth generation Texican I can fade the heat from a village smithy and
>an international sugar trader.
>Lanney
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Barry Conner <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 8:45 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
>
>
>>Paul & Dennis,
>>
>>When I moved to Colorado in 1964, everyone was complaining about "them
damn
>>eastern low life jurk's moving in", didn't set well being from PA.
>>
>>After about thirty years as a resident of Colorado and the Calf. and Texas
>>boys were moving in (large numbers) the terms have changed, its now: "I
>>rather have a sister workin' in a whore house than a neighbor from Calif.
>or
>>Texas".
>>
>>So I can see how Old Dennis can stir the nest with the Texas boys.  Good
>>luck guys its all in fun, be cool Lanney.
>>
>>Buck
>>___________________________________
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Paul Jones <[e-mail]>
>>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>>Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 4:44 PM
>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
>>
>>
>>>Dennis, Dennis, Dennis.  I am glad to have you as a friend as you are
>>>constant proof our good Lord has a sense of humor when it comes to how
>>>Yankees turn out.  One of the whupped Texicans-Pablo
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Dennis Miles <[e-mail]>
>>>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>>>Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 6:29 AM
>>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder
>>>
>>>
>>>>Last time I talked to him, he said he could whup any five Texicans!
>>>>><BG>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Capt.
>>>>,
>>>> Did I say FIVE Texicans??? Well, that must be takin in account the cup
a
>>>>coffee in my left hand...Or mebby I was talkin' about my poor Sainted
>>>>Grandma...Don't rightly remember...<BG>
>>>>
>>>>Dennis
>>>>
>>>>   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>>>>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>>>>  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>>>>    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (JEAN LINDSEY)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: trapping beaver in open water
Date: 12 Jan 1999 21:56:12 -0800 (PST)

What little I know in thrity words or less!!
Well it has been a number of years that these old bones have seen the
cold water in hunt of the O' beaver. But I do rember that when we were
trapping for muskrats in our slews the water would rise and fall feet
during the nite with the tides we have here. So we learned from others
to use floats to trap the changing waters. A float is a raft to hold
the trap. And this float has  to be strong enough to hold the weight of
the animal your trapping, long enough to get his foot in the trap. Now
since we are trying to trap a beaver, you would make this float so that
the beaver could only climb onto it from one point. Of course this float
can have any form of camoflause that you can think of. To make the set,
it would be the same as setting a land set, so keep in mind that you are
trying to get the front foot. What we used to drown them with, is that
under the float was the weight, this was triped when the beaver slipped
off the float, with the trap on his leg. And here in our country we had
shallow water, so it was important for us to get the front leg, so the
beaver would drown fast. With a whole lake, this is probably not a
problem. I spose someone has told you about bustin a hole in the damb
and setting a trap there, and getting him when he comes to repair it.
Sometimes we have had to set our drown bags 20' away from the trap to
find deep enough water. I don't know what type of drowner you're using
on the wire, maybe you can reply off list, and we can talk more. Oh yes,
there are some good books that talk about trapping on ice, but out here
in Western Washington we don't usually get thick enough ice around here
to worry about that.
Hope this helps
Crazy







-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trapping beaver in open water
Date: 12 Jan 1999 23:14:31 -0700

NM,

Check out Jim Clyman's book, Journal of a Mountain Man.  On page 7 it
describes a formula for "beaver medicine".  I've used this and it works good.

Here's luck to ya in trappin'

Allen Hall in Fort Hall country


At 03:23 AM 1/11/99 EST, you wrote:
>Another question on this subject:
>
>What's the recipe for "castorium" -- hope I spelled that right -- anyhow --
>recipe for "beaver bait".
>
>NM
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Squaws
Date: 13 Jan 1999 01:47:20 EST

The "Dictionary of Americanisms," publlished in 1859 defines "squaw" simply as
an Indian women.  It does say the word is derived from the Abenaki.  This is a
definition written pretty close to the time period.

Winfred Blevins' "Dictionary of the American West," published in 1993, goes
further.  Blevins says the word started life as an Algonquin term meaning
"wife," then became part of the normal lingo developed by Eastern Indians for
purposes of trading and was carried west by frontiersmen.  Blevins gives his
source as linguist J.L. Dillard in "All-American English."  According to
Blevins, the Plains Indians saw it as a white man's word and found it
objectionable.

Jim Hardee, AMM#1676
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA  95971
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)
[phone] FAX
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Squaws
Date: 12 Jan 1999 23:03:56 -0800 (PST)



On Wed, 13 Jan 1999 [e-mail] wrote:
> According to
> Blevins, the Plains Indians saw it as a white man's word and found it
> objectionable.

The modern day Nez Perce and Couer D'Alene's (our local tribes), also find
it objectionable, as I suspect most American Indians would.

Regards

Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Duncan Macready" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Squaws
Date: 13 Jan 1999 21:30:52 +1300

Buck wrote
>
>Again very interesting, the same as the term "nigger", as a bad name called
>of the black race, with a little research you'll find these terms are later
>than you would think.
>
>For example: the term for one that works long hours, in hard conditions,
for
>little to no pay and has no chance of making a better like was referred to
>as "working like a nigger" (color had nothing to do with it in pre-colonial
>dock locations), whether in Ireland, England, France or the New World, this
>was the term used by many countries, when referring to the poor laborer in
>controlled conditions. The Irish during the "Potato Wars" were referred to
>as, poor as niggers (poor as those working in the worst of conditions like
>coal miners, also referred to by this name).

Boy are you wrong, "Nigger" is derived fron the Latin word for the color
black "Nigrum" which wasn't the Latin word for a black man , which was
"Aethiops",( as in Ethiopia)
it   is derogatory always was always will be.
YMOS
Cutfinger





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Duncan Macready" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re  was Squaws now speech
Date: 13 Jan 1999 22:37:03 +1300

I have read "Carry The Wind" and the other books by Terry .C Johnston ,and I
wonder where he ,and other authors ,get their speech style from, It
certainly doesn't show up in the journals by Russell and others.
I have never been to a Rendesvous in the USA , Do you guys also use period
correct speech? as well as guns n gear .
Just curious
YMOS
Cutfinger




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re  was Squaws now speech
Date: 13 Jan 1999 02:39:00 -0800 (PST)

> I have read "Carry The Wind" and the other books by Terry .C Johnston ,and I
> wonder where he ,and other authors ,get their speech style from, It
> certainly doesn't show up in the journals by Russell and others.
> I have never been to a Rendesvous in the USA , Do you guys also use period
> correct speech? as well as guns n gear .

Hallo Duncan

I can only speak for myself and my group.

We try and use period "terms" during educational presentations, such as to
schools or living history displays at historic sites/events.  These are
sometimes done in "first person", where you assume the identity of, say,
a Northwest Company clerk of 1810.  Some folks will affect accents of the
character, but I would have a tough time as too many yall's slip in from
my deep south upbringing.

For me and mine, Rendezvous are for relaxing and blowing off steam, and
that is our primary goal <G>.

Also.... many of the journals were written by educated men, the upper
crust if you will, I suspect your novels reflect the "salt of the earth
folks", people with little or no "larnin".

Regards

Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Squaws
Date: 13 Jan 1999 06:43:44 EST

Words can be used by anyone.  I have heard people in "high places" refer to
Black Americans as niggers.  Just because a person has a station in mainstream
society does not make his behavior or vocabulary necessarily dignified and
respectful.   The same goes for sqauw.    I grew up near the Chippewa
Reservation in Michigan.  In that part of the country squaw is not something
you call women i.e. it is not a term of respect or endearment.  My personna is
that of a Lakota WOMAN NOT A SQUAW!!

Red Hawk
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject:  Re: MtMan-List: Squaw
Date: 13 Jan 1999 09:15:53 EST

I think that we all realize by now that there are any number of meanings
hidden or otherwise to the term squaw. Even though in my part Native American
mind it is not a derogatory term, just knowing it is offensive to someone I
would not use it.

Ghosting Wolf



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Trading Cheap Shots and Low Blows
Date: 13 Jan 1999 09:29:32 EST

Here's a tongue in cheek suggestion, maybe you guys can use the above subject
for tradin shots with each other. Then the rest of us will know better which
ones to delete.

Todd Glover



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Squaws
Date: 13 Jan 1999 11:33:06 EST

It appears to me that we are just getting into one of those dicussions on
Political Corectness.  Which is what this really boils down to.  What the term
means today and what it meant in our time frames of preference. Sorta like the
use of the word "Nigger" which was supposed to have been highly used by the
Mountain Men in reference to themselves. Yet in todays climate we must be
carefull about the use of the word. Heck, I'll probably catch flack just for
writing that on the list.


                                                            Longshot



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Squaws
Date: 13 Jan 1999 11:45:53 EST

In a message dated 1/12/99 7:49:09 PM US Eastern Standard Time, [e-mail]
writes:

<< Pat, Thanks for that perspective. How about some input from the members of
 this list that are of NATIVE descent? >>

Interesting you should say that.  My wife is of Cherokee decent and when first
choosing a "Screen Name" when we first got on-line, and having a sense of
humor about herself, she chose the screen name "Chersquaw"  You would not
believe the flack she took in the form of nasty e-mail on almost a daily
basis.  Curious thing about it though was the flack almost 98% of the time
came from politically correct "White Folk" and a majority that 10% from those
who claimed to be "Indian" didn't claim to be of Cherokee, Lakota, Crow etc.
they just claimed "I'm Indian".  The Native Americans that she does know had a
"Screw them" attitude about all of that and didn't seem to take much in the
way of any offense. There were of course exceptions to that and there were
some Native Americans that we know who were offended. My wife to this day
doesn't understand why it is Ok for African Americans to refer to themselves
or other African Americans as "Nigger" but not all right for her to refer to
herself as Squaw. I tell her that it is one of those Political Correctness
Mysteries that may never be understood.

                                                   Longshot



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Sam Keller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re  was Squaws now speech
Date: 13 Jan 1999 08:45:50 -0800 (PST)

Stop & think a minute, does your written discourse include all the
slang that you add to your Spoken one. Most people say "TH" for "THE",
but spell THE. I use a few slang words when I speak that I would have
no idea how to spell, so would never write it down.






---Duncan Macready <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> I have read "Carry The Wind" and the other books by Terry .C
Johnston ,and I
> wonder where he ,and other authors ,get their speech style from, It
> certainly doesn't show up in the journals by Russell and others.
> I have never been to a Rendesvous in the USA , Do you guys also use
period
> correct speech? as well as guns n gear .
> Just curious
> YMOS
> Cutfinger
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bob Spencer)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re  was Squaws now speech
Date: 13 Jan 1999 12:37:41 -0400

>> I have read "Carry The Wind" and the other books by Terry .C Johnston ,and I
>> wonder where he ,and other authors ,get their speech style from, It
>> certainly doesn't show up in the journals by Russell and others.

>Also.... many of the journals were written by educated men, the upper
>crust if you will, I suspect your novels reflect the "salt of the earth
>folks", people with little or no "larnin".

The idea that the mountain men spoke that way is certainly widespread,
today. I'm like Cutfinger, I have never seen it in any of the several
journals from that period which I have read, and have always figured it was
the product of modern movies, TV and fiction. Is there any documentation at
all that it reflects the actual useage?

Bob

Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
non illegitimi carborundum est





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Mtn Man Speed Patterns
Date: 13 Jan 1999 10:48:36 -0800

In my experience, the best attempt to capture the pure speech pattern of the
mountain man was in Lewis Garrards "Yah To Wah", written about an 1846
season with several original mountain men. The events of course take place
after the golden age of the fur trade, but before the Gold Rush changed
everything. It seems apparent by this time that the colorful survivors of
the fur trade gloried in their own slang, and I can't imagine how Garrard
managed to get it down so accurately, except he was a bright and observant
17 yr old who spent a year with people he was clearly fascinated by.
Although the book is not in front of me now, my recollection of the slang is
more along the lines of colorful expressions, wierd pronunciations, and set
nicknames for many things. I am easily bothered by the use of perjorative
words and hence have never been able to get into the "Wind" series, and I
don't recall any such sense from Garrard's quotes -- more like the fractured
pretentiousness of the "bowery boys" or the like. I recommend "Yah To Wah"
highly, as Garrard takes pleasure in discovering and reporting on
commonplace events which were old hat to the veterans.
Pat Quilter



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re speech patterns
Date: 13 Jan 1999 14:24:46 EST

I would imagine that mountain man linguistics were based on where they were
from,
their level of education, and general personality. Many of the early trappers
were french or spanish, so I doubt they were saying "larnin'" any more than
Kit Carson would say "Sacre Bleu!"  By nature and pathology, human beans like
to label everything for identification - alas this also extends to people, who
can be compartmentalized on their use (or abuse) of language.  Happily,most of
us can
diffentiate between what a person says and how he says it.  Literature does
not have the benefit of interpretive facial expressions and body language, so
characters are painted more broadly, appealing to our need to label.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: speech
Date: 13 Jan 1999 14:19:04 +0100

I believe that a lot of what we in the last few
decades of this century believe about how
"mountain men" talked was influenced by John
Baird, who had a regular column in his "Buckskin
Report" that was written in some kind of hillbilly
patois that was so convouleted that it was
virtually impossible to read or understand.  Where
he got it I really don't know.
(He is also responsible for burdening us all with
the term "primative" to descirbe what we do.  In
my book, primative means you kill it with a rock
and eat it raw.  Anything else is not primative.)
In the journals of the time, those who remarked on
such things usually say that French and Native
tongues (alone or in combination) were the most
common thing to hear around the campfire.
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Mountain Man and  Grizzly
Date: 13 Jan 1999 17:52:49 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0050_01BE3F1D.88A579A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Just read a book that some of you might find interesting. It's entitled
"Mountain Man and Grizzly".

Next to the harsh environment and hostile indians the grizzly bear was=20
the mountain mans most formidable opponent, in my opinion. The
confrontations that occured between the two, as told in this book,
makes for some interesting reading.

Most of the book is taken directly from the journals and writings of =
early
explorers. It tells about observations made by such notable folks as
Bridger, Beckwourth, Clyman, Fitzpatrick, Lewis, Long, Smith,
Sublette, and literally dozens of others. It also Gives not only one,=20
but four accounts of the Hugh Glass incident. It tells how James =
O'Pattie
while traveling up the Arkansas River in 1826 counted over 200 grizzlys
in one day, and how George Nidever claimed to have killed 45 bears near
San Luis Obispo in one season!

The book:Mountain Man and Grizzly

Author: Fred R. Gowans

Published: Mountain Grizzly Publications Orem, Utah  1986

From the northwoods

Tony Clark

------=_NextPart_000_0050_01BE3F1D.88A579A0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Just read a book that some of you =
might find=20
interesting. It's entitled</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>"Mountain Man and=20
Grizzly".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Next to the harsh environment and =
hostile=20
indians the grizzly bear was </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>the mountain mans most formidable =
opponent, in=20
my opinion. The</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>confrontations that occured between =
the two, as=20
told in this book,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>makes for some interesting =
reading.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Most of the book is taken directly =
from the=20
journals and writings of early</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>explorers. It tells about =
observations made by=20
such notable folks as</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Bridger, Beckwourth, Clyman, =
Fitzpatrick, Lewis,=20
Long, Smith,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Sublette, and literally dozens of =
others. It=20
also Gives not only one, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>but four accounts of the Hugh Glass =
incident. It=20
tells how James O'Pattie</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>while traveling up the Arkansas =
River in 1826=20
counted over 200 grizzlys</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>in one day, and how George Nidever =
claimed to=20
have killed 45 bears near</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>San Luis Obispo in one =
season!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>The book:Mountain Man and =
Grizzly</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Author: Fred R. Gowans</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Published: Mountain Grizzly =
Publications Orem,=20
Utah  1986</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>From the northwoods</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Tony =
Clark</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0050_01BE3F1D.88A579A0--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Squaws
Date: 13 Jan 1999 17:33:39 -0700

Agreed Longshot,
I have seen this in several journals as you mention and what Webster's
(earliest editon of 1828 /available to me) his definition is not correct per
what is found in the Pennsylavnia Gazzett Aug 18, 1768 and again in Sept 24,
1771 referring to "poor whites and mixes of people work like working like a
nigger" on the docks at Phila.(not one group of people), as the Mountain man
made reference to himself in some cases.

Buck
_________________________
-----Original Message-----


>It appears to me that we are just getting into one of those dicussions on
>Political Corectness.  Which is what this really boils down to.  What the
term
>means today and what it meant in our time frames of preference. Sorta like
the
>use of the word "Nigger" which was supposed to have been highly used by the
>Mountain Men in reference to themselves. Yet in todays climate we must be
>carefull about the use of the word. Heck, I'll probably catch flack just
for
>writing that on the list.
>
>
>                                                            Longshot
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: RE: Mtn man speech patterns
Date: 13 Jan 1999 18:39:23 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0083_01BE3F24.0A5D1EC0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I would have to agree that " Wah to Yah and the Taos Trail" gives the=20
truest presentation of mountain man speech of any book that I have=20
ever read. The character " Hatcher" was a true mountain man if there=20
ever was one--WAUGH!  At one point in the book while Garrard, Hatcher, =
and
another fella named Garmon are sitting around the campfire having an=20
infrequent but welcome drink Garmon remarks about Hatcher, " Why,
the old beaver says as how he was in hell once- eh, Hatch? Hatcher
replies, "Sartain! this old hos was n't any whar else- Wagh! an' I =
tellee, it's me kin=20
tell the yarn."  And to hear him tell the story , all in his amusing=20
mtn. man speech, is worth the price of the book alone. One of the most=20
memorable passages of any book I have ever read.

From the northwoods

Tony Clark

------=_NextPart_000_0083_01BE3F24.0A5D1EC0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I would have to agree that " =
Wah to Yah and=20
the Taos Trail" gives the </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>truest presentation of mountain man =
speech of=20
any book that I have </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>ever read. The character " =
Hatcher"=20
was a true mountain man if there </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>ever was one--WAUGH!  At one =
point in the=20
book while Garrard, Hatcher, and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>another fella named Garmon are =
sitting around=20
the campfire having an </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>infrequent but welcome drink Garmon =
remarks=20
about Hatcher, " Why,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>the old beaver says as how he was in =
hell once-=20
eh, Hatch? Hatcher</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>replies, "Sartain! this old hos =
was n't any=20
whar else- Wagh! an' I tellee, it's me kin </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>tell the yarn."  And to =
hear him tell=20
the story , all in his amusing </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>mtn. man speech, is worth the price =
of the book=20
alone. One of the most </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>memorable passages of any book I =
have ever=20
read.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>From the northwoods</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Tony =
Clark</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0083_01BE3F24.0A5D1EC0--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re speech patterns
Date: 13 Jan 1999 19:39:33 EST





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man and  Grizzly
Date: 13 Jan 1999 20:06:43 EST

This book is out of print, I believe, but can be found in used book stores
both in paper and hardback.  I recently bought the hardback copy to replace my
paper copy I gave to a friend for $8.  Maybe Fred has some copies a U of Utah
he'd sell.  Pat Surrena #1449



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Texians
Date: 13 Jan 1999 18:11:22 -0700

Whip a Texican, even five?  You have to be out of your mind.  Excersizing
there favorite sport has insured that there are LOTS of them.  When you
take on one or even five, they start coming out of the woodwork like you
wouldn't believe.  Not to mention that when I first met Lanney I thought he
was big.  Until he told me he was the runt of the bunch.
Don Keas





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re speech patterns
Date: 13 Jan 1999 19:59:45 EST

I have in my library a copy of a document called "The Mountain Man Vernacular,
Its historical roots, Its linguistic nature, and Its literary Uses" by Richard
C. Poulsen;  American University Studies, Series IV,  English Language and
Literature, vol. 22, publiched by Peter Lang Publishing, New York, 1985.

It's the only work I've seen on the subject.  Here's a bit from the
introduction:
"The language of the trappers was a strange medley of English, French, and
Spanish and as distinct from from grammatical and literary propriety as it is
possible to conveive.  As in all situations where men are long associated in
the same business and in a measure exluded from contact with the world around
them, a peculiar jargon grew up amont the trapping fraternity, vigorous, and
picturesque,if not choice, in its details, but now entirely extinct.  Only in
a few old narrattives of the time does it still survive with any degree of
fidelity.

" The best of these old narratives, Chittenden added in a note, is Ruxton's
"lLife in the Far West.  Later experts have concurred.  For example, Bernard
DeVoto said that Ruxton and his mountain man Kllbuck "are fatithfully
repeating true talk already old.  A.B. Guthrie noted the Ruxton and Lewis H.
Garrard preserved for today the afftected, effective, peculiar speech of the
fur hunter.". . .

". . .Most, if not all versions of lmaoutain language, base their ground of
authenticity on Ruxton's Live in the Far West (or Garrard, with distinct
possiblity that Garrard got his mountain talk, at least in part, from Ruxton's
book. . .

The total work is about 325 pages.  If someone has specific questions I'd be
glad to look and see what the author has to say.  I think it's a fairly
difficult book to find but I believe I got it through interlibrary loan.

Here's what the Chapters look like:
Ch 1.  Historical Evidence of Trapper Speech Before 1849
Ch 2.  Linquistics and Stylisitcs of Mountain Speech
Ch3.  Literary Uses of the Mountain Man Vernacular before 1849
Ch4.  G. F. Ruxton and the Speech of the Mountains
Ch 5  Literary uses of the speech of the mountains:  The Early Period After
ruxton
Ch.6. Literary uses of the speech of the mountains:  The modern period
Appendix A  Mountain Terms
Appendix B  The Oral Narrative Style
Endnotes
Biblio

Pat Surrena AMM #1449





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians
Date: 13 Jan 1999 20:35:24 -0500 (EST)

My first night in Cali. I was sitting at a bar in El Toro when this Texan
came up to me and asked me where I was from.  When I said NJ he mentioned to
the whole bar how he had not killed a guy from NJ in a long time.  While he
was shootin his mouth off I broke his nose.  SOB got blood all over me, they
sure do bleed alot.  So much for Texans.

Frank


At 06:11 PM 1/13/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Whip a Texican, even five?  You have to be out of your mind.  Excersizing
>there favorite sport has insured that there are LOTS of them.  When you
>take on one or even five, they start coming out of the woodwork like you
>wouldn't believe.  Not to mention that when I first met Lanney I thought he
>was big.  Until he told me he was the runt of the bunch.
>Don Keas
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: RE: speech patterns
Date: 13 Jan 1999 19:48:12 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0074_01BE3F2D.A75B2880
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The Mountain Man Vernacular: It's Historical roots, It's linguistic =
Nature, and it's
Literary Uses   (Amer. Univ. Studies 4 English and Literature , Vol. 22)
By: Richard C Paulsen    1985

available at Amazon.com   =20

Price: $36  limited availability

Ruxtons' "life in the Far West" certainly is required reading. I also =
recomend
"Travels in the Rocky Mountains and Mexico"   also by Ruxton. I believe =
the
copy I have was published in 1848. I don't know if it was reprinted.

From the northwoods' =20

Tony Clark

------=_NextPart_000_0074_01BE3F2D.A75B2880
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>The Mountain Man Vernacular: It's =
Historical=20
roots, It's linguistic Nature, and it's</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Literary Uses   (Amer. Univ. Studies 4 =
English and=20
Literature , Vol. 22)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>By: Richard C Paulsen    =
1985</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>available at Amazon.com    =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Price: $36  limited availability</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Ruxtons' "life in the Far West" certainly =
is=20
required reading. I also recomend</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>"Travels in the Rocky Mountains and=20
Mexico"   also by Ruxton. I believe the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>copy I have was published in 1848. I don't know if =
it was=20
reprinted.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>From the northwoods'  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Tony Clark</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0074_01BE3F2D.A75B2880--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Beau Stiles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man and  Grizzly
Date: 13 Jan 1999 19:53:03 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BE3F2E.5492B9A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

You are correct in your assessment of the book Mountain Man and Grizzly. =
It is a fantastic account of the men and the bears, and gives a great =
deal of insight as to how we have ruined the Great Plains.
Beau Stiles
    -----Original Message-----
    From: northwoods <[e-mail]>
    To: Mountain man list <[e-mail]>
    Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 5:53 PM
    Subject: MtMan-List: Mountain Man and Grizzly
   =20
   =20
    Just read a book that some of you might find interesting. It's =
entitled
    "Mountain Man and Grizzly".
    =20
    Next to the harsh environment and hostile indians the grizzly bear =
was=20
    the mountain mans most formidable opponent, in my opinion. The
    confrontations that occured between the two, as told in this book,
    makes for some interesting reading.
    =20
    Most of the book is taken directly from the journals and writings of =
early
    explorers. It tells about observations made by such notable folks as
    Bridger, Beckwourth, Clyman, Fitzpatrick, Lewis, Long, Smith,
    Sublette, and literally dozens of others. It also Gives not only =
one,=20
    but four accounts of the Hugh Glass incident. It tells how James =
O'Pattie
    while traveling up the Arkansas River in 1826 counted over 200 =
grizzlys
    in one day, and how George Nidever claimed to have killed 45 bears =
near
    San Luis Obispo in one season!
    =20
    The book:Mountain Man and Grizzly
    =20
    Author: Fred R. Gowans
    =20
    Published: Mountain Grizzly Publications Orem, Utah  1986
    =20
    From the northwoods
    =20
    Tony Clark

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BE3F2E.5492B9A0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000>You are correct in your assessment of the =
book Mountain=20
Man and Grizzly. It is a fantastic account of the men and the bears, and =
gives a=20
great deal of insight as to how we have ruined the Great =
Plains.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000></FONT>Beau Stiles</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>northwoods <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B=
>To:=20
    </B>Mountain man list <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR>=
<B>Date:=20
    </B>Wednesday, January 13, 1999 5:53 PM<BR><B>Subject: =
</B>MtMan-List:=20
    Mountain Man and Grizzly<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Just read a book that some of =
you might find=20
    interesting. It's entitled</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>"Mountain Man and=20
    Grizzly".</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Next to the harsh environment =
and hostile=20
    indians the grizzly bear was </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>the mountain mans most =
formidable opponent,=20
    in my opinion. The</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>confrontations that occured =
between the two,=20
    as told in this book,</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>makes for some interesting=20
    reading.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Most of the book is taken =
directly from the=20
    journals and writings of early</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>explorers. It tells about =
observations made=20
    by such notable folks as</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Bridger, Beckwourth, Clyman, =
Fitzpatrick,=20
    Lewis, Long, Smith,</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Sublette, and literally dozens =
of others. It=20
    also Gives not only one, </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>but four accounts of the Hugh =
Glass=20
    incident. It tells how James O'Pattie</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>while traveling up the Arkansas =
River in=20
    1826 counted over 200 grizzlys</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>in one day, and how George =
Nidever claimed=20
    to have killed 45 bears near</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>San Luis Obispo in one =
season!</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>The book:Mountain Man and=20
    Grizzly</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Author: Fred R. =
Gowans</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Published: Mountain Grizzly =
Publications=20
    Orem, Utah  1986</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>From the northwoods</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Tony=20
Clark</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BE3F2E.5492B9A0--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians
Date: 13 Jan 1999 21:03:43 -0600

You done good....busting the chops of an obnoxious loudmouth who was =
making threats.  We bust 'em, too, for the same reason.  However, having =
a Texian on your side is rarely a bad thing.
Lanney Ratcliff
slightly obnoxious, certainly loudmouth, non-threatening Texian
-----Original Message-----


>My first night in Cali. I was sitting at a bar in El Toro when this =
Texan
>came up to me and asked me where I was from.  When I said NJ he =
mentioned to
>the whole bar how he had not killed a guy from NJ in a long time.  =
While he
>was shootin his mouth off I broke his nose.  SOB got blood all over me, =
they
>sure do bleed alot.  So much for Texans.
>
>Frank
>
>
>At 06:11 PM 1/13/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>Whip a Texican, even five?  You have to be out of your mind.  =
Excersizing
>>there favorite sport has insured that there are LOTS of them.  When =
you
>>take on one or even five, they start coming out of the woodwork like =
you
>>wouldn't believe.  Not to mention that when I first met Lanney I =
thought he
>>was big.  Until he told me he was the runt of the bunch.
>>Don Keas
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man and  Grizzly
Date: 13 Jan 1999 20:39:13 -0700

How have WE ruined the Plains?
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: speech
Date: 13 Jan 1999 20:43:28 -0700

Alan,
Primitive? When neccesary, I just turn over the rock and eat what is underneath!
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trading Cheap Shots and Low Blows
Date: 13 Jan 1999 19:55:18 -0800

Thanks Todd, you said that far better than if I had said what I was thinking!
(which is why I didn't say it!)

Medicine Bear

[e-mail] wrote:

> Here's a tongue in cheek suggestion, maybe you guys can use the above subject
> for tradin shots with each other. Then the rest of us will know better which
> ones to delete.
>
> Todd Glover




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: RE: speech patterns
Date: 13 Jan 1999 23:03:16 EST

Those of you looking for Garrard's book: "Yah to Wah..." It is published by
Dover Books and is available on-line from Amazon Books.  It's on sale,
paperback, for $10.95.

<A HREF="http://www.doverbooks.com/">Dover Books - Discount Art, Science,
Classics and Childrens Books from Dover Publications, Inc.</A>

Ghosting Wolf



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtn Man Speed Patterns
Date: 13 Jan 1999 20:21:32 -0800

Pat,

Is the book titled "Wah-To-Yah and the Taos Trail " the same book or a sequel?

Medicine Bear

Pat Quilter wrote:

> In my experience, the best attempt to capture the pure speech pattern of the
> mountain man was in Lewis Garrards "Yah To Wah", written about an 1846
> season with several original mountain men.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Ted A Hart)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians
Date: 13 Jan 1999 23:31:33 EST

I'm a runt..at 150 lbs :)  But I sure can run fast when needed like when
a griz is after me....now I think anyone who's being chased by a griz
would run fast anyhow :)

Ted

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians
Date: 13 Jan 1999 20:46:41 -0800 (PST)

On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, Ted A Hart wrote:
> I'm a runt..at 150 lbs :)  But I sure can run fast when needed like when
> a griz is after me....now I think anyone who's being chased by a griz
> would run fast anyhow :)

Ted, Ted, Ted

Everyone in Grizz country knows you don't have to be faster than the
Grizz.... you just have to be faster than your partner <G>

That's why I hunt with the elderly!

Tounge in cheek

Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Beau Stiles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man and  Grizzly
Date: 13 Jan 1999 23:02:17 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE3F48.C4881380
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hmm, let's see....destroyed the people, the culture, the wildlife, and =
much of the history (especially regarding native american religious =
rights and such). It is a depressing scenario when one looks back at how =
the plains were versus how they are today. While certainly, there are =
aspects of the plains today that are no doubt wonderful,they will never =
be as they once were.

Beau Stiles (just my personal feeling, not intended to offend anyone)
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 9:40 PM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man and Grizzly
   =20
   =20
    How have WE ruined the Plains?
    Joe
   =20
    Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
    Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
    Write for custom tanning prices
    We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather =
and
    hair on robes
    Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, =
baskets
    check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka
   =20
   =20
   =20


------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE3F48.C4881380
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000>Hmm, let's see....destroyed the people, the =
culture,=20
the wildlife, and much of the history (especially regarding native =
american=20
religious rights and such). It is a depressing scenario when one looks =
back at=20
how the plains were versus how they are today. While certainly, there =
are=20
aspects of the plains today that are no doubt wonderful,they will never =
be as=20
they once were.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Beau Stiles (just my personal feeling, not intended to offend =
anyone)</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Joe Brandl <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>To:=
=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Wednesday, January 13, 1999 9:40 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: =
MtMan-List:=20
    Mountain Man and Grizzly<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>How have WE ruined the=20
    Plains?<BR>Joe<BR><BR>Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery<BR>Call =
us about=20
    our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440<BR>Write for custom =
tanning=20
    prices<BR>We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection =
of=20
    leather and<BR>hair on robes<BR>Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, =
Indian=20
    reproductions, paintings, baskets<BR>check out our new web site: <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.onpages.com/absaroka">http://www.onpages.com/absaroka<=
/A><BR><BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE3F48.C4881380--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians
Date: 13 Jan 1999 21:57:21 +0000

Those Texans aren't so tough, me and my five brothers beat one up
yesterday...Hardtack <s>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kurt Westenbarger" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Boiling water and Giardia
Date: 14 Jan 1999 08:24:08 -0700

I guess I'll wade into this one a little.  I think it would be better to
rephrase as 'water can't be sterilized by boiling'.  In Yellowstone
Park, where I work as a private naturalist guide, there are Thermophiles
(hot water loving organisims, bacteria mostly) that thrive under ground,
under pressure in water of 240+F.  Considering that 212F is surface
water boiling temperature at sea level, 198F for surface water in
Yellowstone, I think it's evident that boiling will not kill
everything.  ( I recently heard a scientist studying thermophiles say
"we currently don't know the upper temperture limit of life")  However,
according to a course I took to get a Wilderness First Responder
Certificate there are no known infectious organisims able to survive
154F.  If that's true then then boiling will at least render water safe
to drink at most altitudes normal people will visit.  It also means that
surface water used in topical first aid should be chemically treated
(providone iodine) to sterilize to discourage non-infectious critters
from attacking dead or dying flesh.

A quick word of Giardia.  That same First Responder Course said that the
majority of giardia infections in humans show no symptoms whatsoever.
Most people infected are unknown carriers and distributors of the
organisim.  No doubt humans are responsible for the diseases rapid
spread throughout the world but the no symptoms thing surprised me.  So
I talked a doctor into testing me since I did often drink at spring
sources but filter everything else with a very good filter.  Sure enough
I carried the bug and had no symptoms.  Boiling will kill giardia by the
way.  Now I filter everything.

Kurt




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Ted A Hart)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians
Date: 14 Jan 1999 10:29:08 EST

Ok ok so some Texicans can be beat up <BG> but there are too many people
movin' in Texas nowdays then after donning an cowboy hat and boots they
think they're bonafide Texicans....yeah right!  Those people give
Texicans a bad name <G>  But when I was in college in NY attending
Rochester Institute of Technology my fraternity had the largest
congretation of Texans! <BBG>

Ted

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Squaws
Date: 14 Jan 1999 09:49:17 -0700

Here's part of the entry for 'squaw' in the _Dictionary of Canadianisms on
Historical Principles_:
'Algonk.; cf. Cree _iskwao_, woman. 1. An Indian woman, especially a wife.
N.B. Although _squaw_ is the normal and acceptable English term for an
Indian woman, it is used in some contexts, especially by white men, with
derogatory conotations. Moreover, the term is often resented by Indians who
are not Algonkian-speaking, for it is to them an English word, one having no
significance in their own languages.'
Also, in Carol (?) Judd & Arthur Ray's _Old Trails and New Directions_ (a
compilation of papers from a North American Fur Trade Conference), Jennifer
S. H. Brown has a paper called "Linguistic Solitudes", in which shelooks at
the difference in historic Canadian & American usage of words such as
'squaw' and 'half-breed'. Canadians were, she says, slower to use the word
'squaw', and never used the term 'squaw man' to mean a man who'd married a
Native woman. I've seen 'squaw' in some of my reading of pre-1821 fur trade
journals, but the word 'woman' is far more common. In some cases, 'woman' or
'girl' probably means 'wife' ; for instance, 'Mr. Grant's girl',
'Charbonneau's woman'. I don't remember seeing the word squaw used to mean
prostitute, although prostitution certainly does come up in these journals.
By the way, the _Dictionary of Canadianisms_ is still in print (Gage is the
publisher), and is quite helpful in tracking down definitions of obscure &
obsolete words from the Canadian fur trade era.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man and  Grizzly
Date: 14 Jan 1999 10:03:26 -0700

I would call that progression of history, happened in every country of the
world. Never will be the same. Native people were killed or displaced by
their own people as well as foreigners. Everyone including the native
decimated species of wildlife in certain area. Depressing? All depends on
wheather you were the one displaced or killed. No way can you choose one
culture or animal and determine that they were destroyed by WE.
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Ted A Hart)
Subject: MtMan-List: Cast Iron pot seasoning
Date: 14 Jan 1999 12:50:30 EST

I was wondering the best way of seasoning a cast iron pot because I cook
with one and am wondering how to re-season it bec I lost the directions
on how to do that.  Anyone have experience with it?

Ted

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Colleen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast Iron pot seasoning
Date: 14 Jan 1999 13:54:44 -0500


> I was wondering the best way of seasoning a cast iron pot because I cook
> with one and am wondering how to re-season it bec I lost the directions
> on how to do that.  Anyone have experience with it?
>
> Ted

Check this site out!  It should help.

http://www.lodgemfg.com/care.htm

Colleen
(Many Ducks)



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Sam Keller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re speech patterns
Date: 14 Jan 1999 12:36:10 -0800 (PST)


A mans level of education probally had little to do woth how he spoke.
A man tends to use speech patterns to match the group he is with.



[e-mail] wrote:
>
> I would imagine that mountain man linguistics were based on where
they were
> from,
> their level of education, and general personality. Many of the early
trappers
> were french or spanish, so I doubt they were saying "larnin'" any
more than
> Kit Carson would say "Sacre Bleu!"  By nature and pathology, human
beans like
> to label everything for identification - alas this also extends to
people, who
> can be compartmentalized on their use (or abuse) of language.
Happily,most of
> us can
> diffentiate between what a person says and how he says it.
Literature does
> not have the benefit of interpretive facial expressions and body
language, so
> characters are painted more broadly, appealing to our need to label.
>
>

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John L. Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Canvas lodges
Date: 14 Jan 1999 16:08:48 -0500

Ho, the list:

During the last month or so, I've been doing some archival research that has
led me to a bunch of old (1850-1900) photographs of the central and northern
Great Plains and the northern Rockies. In virtually all of the photos
showing Indian villages, the lodges appeared to me to be of something other
than buffalo or other hide because they were so very bright. These pictures
are in black and white but from the brightness signature, I'm assuming the
color of the tepees was white and I'm further assuming that the tepee
coverings were canvas. This prompted me to try to remember whether I'd ever
seen pictures of western Indian villages in which the tepee coverings were
dark in color--and I couldn't remember a single instance.

I know that contemporary lodges that many of you use at rendezvous are
normally made of canvas and that you try to be as period-correct as you can
possibly be. This leads me to the assumption that canvas was in widespread
use among the western tribes prior to the 1840s. My question for the list
is: when did canvas come into normal use for lodges, replacing buffalo hides
among the Plains and Rockies tribes as the preferred covering for tepees?
Or, alternately, are all my assumptions above wrong and have I really
looking at hide lodges that were somehow bleached white by the elements? (A
sidebar thought occurred to me: the replacement of hides by canvas must have
been a blessing to the folks who had to set up and strike camp--usually the
women, I guess.)

I'll look forward to some solid answers from the folks who are most equipped
to know. Thanks in advance.

John

Dr. John L. Allen
21 Thomas Drive
Storrs, CT 06268
860/487-1346
[e-mail]






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians
Date: 14 Jan 1999 17:41:51 EST

What does all this Texian stuff have to do with this list? I'm getting pretty
sick of my e-mail being clogged up with this stuff. Take it somewhere else,
please. Thanks.

Ghosting Wolf



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: canvas lodges
Date: 14 Jan 1999 16:11:21 +0100

This is in response to the message about "bright"
lodges in old photos.
first, there are many, many photos around of
buffalo hide lodges in use.  The Soule photos from
the late 1860s from the Southern Plains, for
example. Also, the Jackson photos of Shoshone and
Nez Perce camps in Wyoming and Montana,
respectively in the 70s.   In most historic photos
of buffalo hide lodge camps, lodges of varying age
are present.  The oldest lodges are very dark in
shade, especially around the smoke flaps.Newer
lodges can appear to be very light or bright or
white by contrast.
Sometimes, expecially when the lodge is at a
distance, it is difficult to specifically say
whether it is hide or not.  I usually assume that
if the lodges that you can see are hide, then most
in the same camp probably are as well.
As far as I know, Indian women did not usually
smoke the hides for a lodge before sewing them
together.  Therefore, a new lodge cover was white
and acquired color only through use.
 Cloth lodge covers:  when was the earliest
documented use?  Hopefully there will be a piece
in the Mus Fur Trade Quarterly before too much
longer (a computer crash wiped out my work)
demonstrating that cloth lodges were probably
being made in the 1840s on the Plains.  Before
that, who knows?  There is good evidence for them
in the 50s.  Angela Gottfried had posted some info
from Canada a while back, which I don't have
handy, about cloth lodges of some kind up there at
a pretty early date.
At the same time there are photos as late as 1881
from northern Montana of entire villages of
buffalo hide lodges.
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Don Neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast Iron pot seasoning
Date: 14 Jan 1999 17:17:36 -0600

The best way I have found to season a pot is to take some cooking oil
and pour some ether on a paper towel then rub it all over the pot. Not
wear it is dripping just wear you have a good film on it. Then set your
oven @ 350 degrees. Then place  the pot on the rack for around 30 to 40
minutes. this well season the pot. When after you clean it I always rub
a film of cooking oil on it. Never put it away wet it will rust. If it
ever rust , clean it with steelwool then repeat the seasoning over again
. This has always worked for me. Useing the pot over and over will
season it itself. Donnie




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Ted A Hart)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians
Date: 14 Jan 1999 19:34:22 EST

Ok no problem :)  I'm getting tired of it too but I like the joking
around...any good mountain man jokes?  Clean ones please.  Thanks for the
info on cast iron pan.  Appreciated it.

Ted

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians
Date: 14 Jan 1999 19:53:53 EST

In a message dated 1/14/99 6:36:52 PM Central Standard Time, [e-mail]
writes:

<<  I'm getting tired of it too but I like the joking
 around...any good mountain man jokes?  Clean ones please.  Thanks for the
 info on cast iron pan.  Appreciated it.

 Ted
  >>
Well, now I'm sure you've heard that Echo Canyon was so named because Jim
Bridger, when he went to sleep at the head of it, would shout: "Time to get
up, Jim"
When the echo came back to him it was.

Tom Laidlaw



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast Iron pot seasoning
Date: 14 Jan 1999 18:51:45 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0077_01BE3FEE.EEF8C640
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Here's an article that a friend gave me about anything you want to know =
about cast iron, he deals in old pieces and is very knowledgeable about =
cast iron, cooking, etc. You may want to file this article away for =
reference.

Buck
____________________________________________
THE CARE & FEEDING OF CAST IRON
by Brook & Barbara Elliot

We were coaxing a breakfast fire from wet wood after a night of =
thunderstorms. Everything was soaked
and sodden.
A woman from another camp, on her way to the hooters, stopped to watch =
us. For several minutes she
stared at our fireplace with a bemused look on her face. Finally, she =
approached. "Did you keep your
cookware in the tent last night?" she wanted to know.
It was our turn to look bemused. "Of coarse not," we responded, "why do =
you ask?"
Her reply really set us to thinking. "You have the only pots and pans in =
camp that aren't rusted from the
storm."
Looking around, we realized she was right. That was several years ago, =
and nothing much has changed.
At every event we attend, if it rains, skillets, kettles, and Dutch =
ovens all around us take on a red patina.
Considering how much cast iron is used in living history camps, its =
incredible how few re-enactors know how to care for it. Cast iron =
cookware must be cured, and that cure maintained properly. If done =
correctly, the iron will not rust, nor will food stick to it and burn.
The curing process is basically the same, whether you start with new or =
used cast iron. But there are
minor differences. Let's look at new cookware first.
There are three sources of new cast ironware. Two American companies --- =
Wagner and Lodge --- still
produce it. The rest comes from Asian sources. You are better off with =
the American made goods, because they are finer grained. The imports, =
though cheaper, have a course grain that is hard to cure, and which =
requires more attention once it is cured.
If you have a choice, avoid modern designs such as self-basting lids. =
They are far from being period
proper, and are more difficult to care for, because steam, condensing in =
the depressions and on the
nipples, tend to draw out the cure. The result is rust on the inside of =
the lid.
Wooden handles, while acceptable, are not authentic. What's more, they =
are likely to burn when used on an open fire.
New iron has a protective coating on it which must be removed. American =
companies use wax. The
imports are covered with a water soluble shellac. In either case, using =
straight hot water, scrub the item
with soap and a scouring pad. Use the hottest water you can stand. Once =
all the coating is removed, you will never again let soap touch the =
iron.
Let's repeat that: Do not use soap on cured cast iron. the cure is based =
on grease, and soap's job is to
remove grease. So, if you use soap, you'll be destroying the very effect =
you are trying for.
As the iron comes clean, immediately dry it and wipe a film of =
shortening over it. Originally, lard was
used for this purpose. But it has a tendency to turn rancid, so =
shortening is a better bet.
Heat your oven to 400 degrees, and put the pieces in it for about an =
hour. Remove them, and blot up any puddles of oil with a paper towel. =
Let the iron pieces cool. Do not be alarmed if, at this point, they feel =
sticky. They'll lose that when the cure is complete.
Cast iron makers instruct that ware is now ready to use, but recommend =
that you use it only for frying the
first few times. We've found that oiling and heating at least one more =
time before use makes more sense.
For camp use, the iron is only partially cured at this stage. To =
complete the cure, build a high-flamed fire.
Any fuel will serve, but
avoid softwoods because they'll deposit creosote on the iron, which is =
no good for you.
Grease the iron on all sides, fairly heavily, and sit it in the flames. =
When a good coating of soot has been deposited, turn each piece and =
brush the sooty surface with more shortening. Be sure to use a natural =
fiber brush for this, because synthetics will melt. At the appropriate =
time, turn the pieces again, and grease the first side. Remove the =
pieces from the fire, and let them cool.
Now comes the messy part. Liberally grease paper towels and use them to =
wipe off the iron. Lots of soot will come off, so you need plenty of =
towels. Try not to reapply this loose surface soot to the ware.
Your iron should now have a deep, black finish that normally takes =
months of use to acquire. What
you've done is fill-in all the pores and voids in the iron, creating a =
smooth, non-stick surface. In addition,
the black finish helps absorb and hold heat evenly.
You can use the iron right now, or clean it to remove additional soot. =
we always clean it, because we use the same cast-iron pieces at home as =
in camp, and don't want the soot messing up the kitchen stove.
Properly cleaning cast iron is the secret of maintaining the cure. Let =
us repeat: Do not use soap on cast iron, ever! Instead, all you need is =
hot (the hotter the better) water and a scrub brush.
Once again, use straight hot water from the tap, or water you've heated =
in camp. Pour a small amount (a cup or so) in the iron, and use the =
scrub brush to vigorously scour all surfaces. Rinse the surface with =
more hot water. If you are concerned about sterilization, pour boiling =
water into and over the iron after you have brushed it.
Immediately dry the iron, and wipe a thin film of shortening over it. =
This replaces any you have lost
through cooking and cleaning, and futher assures there will be no =
rusting.
Iron that=92s been used on an open fire will always have loose soot on =
the outside. Rather than dirtying the scrub brush, we use one of those =
plastic pads instead. We keep them reserved for that purpose, so the =
soot is not transferred to other cleaning products.
In camp, we only clean the insides of cast ironware. Then, before =
leaving, we wipe down the outside with shortening soaked paper towels to =
remove the loose soot.
Used cast iron requires a different approach. Depending on where you =
aquire it, you are likely to find it
coated with everything from paint (collectors are big on that), to =
crusted-on old food, to a thick coating of burned lard.
Much of this can be simply burned off by leaving the iron in a very hot =
fire. We used to heat the iron,
then plunge it into cold water. This, in effect, steam-cleaned the iron. =
But the folks at Lodge warned us
against this practice, because it can cause the iron to warp and even =
crack. We never had it happen, but why take the chance? Besides which, =
we=92ve found a better way.
First, wash the iron in hot soapy water to remove any loose crud. Then =
soak it in an acid bath.
To create this, fill a plastic drum with water, adding a quart of =
battery acid for each five gallons of water.
Let the iron sit for several days, checking it each day and mixing the =
solution to assure fresh acid is
against the iron each time. After three or four days the iron should be =
ready to clean.
At this point, follow the directions for new iron. One caution: the =
paint can be real messy, and you may
want to work outside.
The buckskinner who taught us this trick follows up with a baking soda =
bath to remove any traces of acid.
But we=92ve found that unnecessary, because you=92ll be flushing it all =
out when you wash it.
Some old iron pieces will, after the soapy water wash, look like new. =
Others will have stains that won=92t
come out no matter how hard you scrub. Don=92t worry about them, as the =
cure will cover and hide them.
Once the iron is clean, oil and cure it as usual.
By following these instructions, you=92ll never again have rusted =
cookware, unless you let rainwater sit in it for any length of time. =
Rain, almost everywhere in the country, is now at least slightly acidic. =
If you let it sit in your iron, it will eat through the cure and =
you=92ll have rust. So be sure to drain and dry any
rain-soaked ironware as soon as possible.
One final word. As you search out old cast iron in flea markets, antique =
malls, and other locations you=92ll be shocked at how high the prices =
can be. Collectors have skyrocketed the value of cast iron, especially =
that made by Griswold. So shop carefully. Overall, you=92ll find better =
bargains at flea markets and auctions than you will in antique malls and =
shops.
And don=92t expect to find pieces from the 18th century. Most of them =
are safely tucked away in
collections.
  ---------------------------------------------------
-----Original Message-----


>I was wondering the best way of seasoning a cast iron pot because I =
cook
>with one and am wondering how to re-season it bec I lost the directions
>on how to do that. =20

------=_NextPart_000_0077_01BE3FEE.EEF8C640
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"" size=3D2></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2>Here's an article=20
that a friend gave me about anything you want to know about cast iron, =
he deals=20
in old pieces and is very knowledgeable about cast iron, cooking, etc. =
You may=20
want to file this article away for reference.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Buck</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"" size=3D2></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2>____________________________________________</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"" size=3D2>THE CARE & FEEDING OF CAST IRON<BR>by =
Brook &=20
Barbara Elliot</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"" size=3D2>We were coaxing a breakfast fire from wet =
wood after a=20
night of thunderstorms. Everything was soaked<BR>and sodden.<BR>A woman =
from=20
another camp, on her way to the hooters, stopped to watch us. For =
several=20
minutes she<BR>stared at our fireplace with a bemused look on her face. =
Finally,=20
she approached. "Did you keep your<BR>cookware in the tent last=20
night?" she wanted to know.<BR>It was our turn to look bemused. =
"Of=20
coarse not," we responded, "why do you ask?"<BR>Her reply =
really=20
set us to thinking. "You have the only pots and pans in camp that =
aren't=20
rusted from the<BR>storm."<BR>Looking around, we realized she was =
right.=20
That was several years ago, and nothing much has changed.<BR>At every =
event we=20
attend, if it rains, skillets, kettles, and Dutch ovens all around us =
take on a=20
red patina.<BR>Considering how much cast iron is used in living history =
camps,=20
its incredible how few re-enactors know how to care for it. Cast iron =
cookware=20
must be cured, and that cure maintained properly. If done correctly, the =
iron=20
will not rust, nor will food stick to it and burn.<BR>The curing process =
is=20
basically the same, whether you start with new or used cast iron. But =
there=20
are<BR>minor differences. Let's look at new cookware first.<BR>There are =
three=20
sources of new cast ironware. Two American companies --- Wagner and =
Lodge ---=20
still<BR>produce it. The rest comes from Asian sources. You are better =
off with=20
the American made goods, because they are finer grained. The imports, =
though=20
cheaper, have a course grain that is hard to cure, and which requires =
more=20
attention once it is cured.<BR>If you have a choice, avoid modern =
designs such=20
as self-basting lids. They are far from being period<BR>proper, and are =
more=20
difficult to care for, because steam, condensing in the depressions and =
on=20
the<BR>nipples, tend to draw out the cure. The result is rust on the =
inside of=20
the lid.<BR>Wooden handles, while acceptable, are not authentic. What's =
more,=20
they are likely to burn when used on an open fire.<BR>New iron has a =
protective=20
coating on it which must be removed. American companies use wax. =
The<BR>imports=20
are covered with a water soluble shellac. In either case, using straight =
hot=20
water, scrub the item<BR>with soap and a scouring pad. Use the hottest =
water you=20
can stand. Once all the coating is removed, you will never again let =
soap touch=20
the iron.<BR>Let's repeat that: Do not use soap on cured cast iron. the =
cure is=20
based on grease, and soap's job is to<BR>remove grease. So, if you use =
soap,=20
you'll be destroying the very effect you are trying for.<BR>As the iron =
comes=20
clean, immediately dry it and wipe a film of shortening over it. =
Originally,=20
lard was<BR>used for this purpose. But it has a tendency to turn rancid, =
so=20
shortening is a better bet.<BR>Heat your oven to 400 degrees, and put =
the pieces=20
in it for about an hour. Remove them, and blot up any puddles of oil =
with a=20
paper towel. Let the iron pieces cool. Do not be alarmed if, at this =
point, they=20
feel sticky. They'll lose that when the cure is complete.<BR>Cast iron =
makers=20
instruct that ware is now ready to use, but recommend that you use it =
only for=20
frying the<BR>first few times. We've found that oiling and heating at =
least one=20
more time before use makes more sense.<BR>For camp use, the iron is only =

partially cured at this stage. To complete the cure, build a high-flamed =

fire.<BR>Any fuel will serve, but<BR>avoid softwoods because they'll =
deposit=20
creosote on the iron, which is no good for you.<BR>Grease the iron on =
all sides,=20
fairly heavily, and sit it in the flames. When a good coating of soot =
has been=20
deposited, turn each piece and brush the sooty surface with more =
shortening. Be=20
sure to use a natural fiber brush for this, because synthetics will =
melt. At the=20
appropriate time, turn the pieces again, and grease the first side. =
Remove the=20
pieces from the fire, and let them cool.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1><FONT size=3D2>Now comes the messy part. Liberally =
grease paper=20
towels and use them to wipe off the iron. Lots of soot will come off, so =
you=20
need plenty of towels. Try not to reapply this loose surface soot to the =

ware.<BR>Your iron should now have a deep, black finish that normally =
takes=20
months of use to acquire. What<BR>you've done is fill-in all the pores =
and voids=20
in the iron, creating a smooth, non-stick surface. In addition,<BR>the =
black=20
finish helps absorb and hold heat evenly.<BR>You can use the iron right =
now, or=20
clean it to remove additional soot. we always clean it, because we use =
the same=20
cast-iron pieces at home as in camp, and don't want the soot messing up =
the=20
kitchen stove.<BR>Properly cleaning cast iron is the secret of =
maintaining the=20
cure. Let us repeat: Do not use soap on cast iron, ever! Instead, all =
you need=20
is hot (the hotter the better) water and a scrub brush.<BR>Once again, =
use=20
straight hot water from the tap, or water you've heated in camp. Pour a =
small=20
amount (a cup or so) in the iron, and use the scrub brush to vigorously =
scour=20
all surfaces. Rinse the surface with more hot water. If you are =
concerned about=20
sterilization, pour boiling water into and over the iron after you have =
brushed=20
it.<BR>Immediately dry the iron, and wipe a thin film of shortening over =
it.=20
This replaces any you have lost<BR>through cooking and cleaning, and =
futher=20
assures there will be no rusting.<BR>Iron that’s been used on an =
open fire=20
will always have loose soot on the outside. Rather than dirtying the =
scrub=20
brush, we use one of those plastic pads instead. We keep them reserved =
for that=20
purpose, so the soot is not transferred to other cleaning =
products.<BR>In camp,=20
we only clean the insides of cast ironware. Then, before leaving, we =
wipe down=20
the outside with shortening soaked paper towels to remove the loose=20
soot.<BR>Used cast iron requires a different approach. Depending on =
where you=20
aquire it, you are likely to find it<BR>coated with everything from =
paint=20
(collectors are big on that), to crusted-on old food, to a thick coating =
of=20
burned lard.<BR>Much of this can be simply burned off by leaving the =
iron in a=20
very hot fire. We used to heat the iron,<BR>then plunge it into cold =
water.=20
This, in effect, steam-cleaned the iron. But the folks at Lodge warned=20
us<BR>against this practice, because it can cause the iron to warp and =
even=20
crack. We never had it happen, but why take the chance? Besides which,=20
we’ve found a better way.<BR>First, wash the iron in hot soapy =
water to=20
remove any loose crud. Then soak it in an acid bath.<BR>To create this, =
fill a=20
plastic drum with water, adding a quart of battery acid for each five =
gallons of=20
water.<BR>Let the iron sit for several days, checking it each day and =
mixing the=20
solution to assure fresh acid is<BR>against the iron each time. After =
three or=20
four days the iron should be ready to clean.<BR>At this point, follow =
the=20
directions for new iron. One caution: the paint can be real messy, and =
you=20
may<BR>want to work outside.<BR>The buckskinner who taught us this trick =
follows=20
up with a baking soda bath to remove any traces of acid.<BR>But =
we’ve=20
found that unnecessary, because you’ll be flushing it all out when =
you=20
wash it.<BR>Some old iron pieces will, after the soapy water wash, look =
like=20
new. Others will have stains that won’t<BR>come out no matter how =
hard you=20
scrub. Don’t worry about them, as the cure will cover and hide=20
them.<BR>Once the iron is clean, oil and cure it as usual.<BR>By =
following these=20
instructions, you’ll never again have rusted cookware, unless you =
let=20
rainwater sit in it for any length of time. Rain, almost everywhere in =
the=20
country, is now at least slightly acidic. If you let it sit in your =
iron, it=20
will eat through the cure and you’ll have rust. So be sure to =
drain and=20
dry any<BR>rain-soaked ironware as soon as possible.<BR>One final word. =
As you=20
search out old cast iron in flea markets, antique malls, and other =
locations=20
you’ll be shocked at how high the prices can be. Collectors have=20
skyrocketed the value of cast iron, especially that made by Griswold. So =
shop=20
carefully. Overall, you’ll find better bargains at flea markets =
and=20
auctions than you will in antique malls and shops.<BR>And don’t =
expect to=20
find pieces from the 18th century. Most of them are safely tucked away=20
in<BR>collections.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2> =20
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Ted =
A Hart=20
<<A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR>To: =
<A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
<<A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR>Date:=20
Thursday, January 14, 1999 10:53 AM<BR>Subject: MtMan-List: Cast Iron =
pot=20
seasoning<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>>I was wondering the best way of =
seasoning a=20
cast iron pot because I cook<BR>>with one and am wondering how to =
re-season=20
it bec I lost the directions<BR>>on how to do that. =20
</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0077_01BE3FEE.EEF8C640--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians
Date: 14 Jan 1999 20:02:44 -0600

Ghosting Wolf
Many of the people on this list are personal friends and sometimes take =
advantage of the forum to pass a little harmless banter back and forth.  =
I really don't think that it is in e-mail clogging quantities but I, for =
one, am sorry it makes you sick.  This kind of exchange takes place from =
time to time with a variety of subjects and when a particuar subject has =
proven to have no interest for me I simply delete the posts in the =
thread as I come to them, never bothering to read them.  Until this =
current wave of droll comments to and about Texians (often with me as a =
target) comes to an end I suggest you do the same.  Maybe your complaint =
and this response will put the kibosh on the Texian thread and let =
everybody get serious....again.
Sincerely
Lanney Ratcliff, Texian


-----Original Message-----


>What does all this Texian stuff have to do with this list? I'm getting =
pretty
>sick of my e-mail being clogged up with this stuff. Take it somewhere =
else,
>please. Thanks.
>
>Ghosting Wolf
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Kirsten Smith and Tania Dopler <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Choice of words
Date: 14 Jan 1999 21:02:24 -0500

Huzzah Angela

Once again with your excellent research and articulation you have quite
eloquently tackled this topic.  I have always found that word to be
distasteful since I grew up hearing the word as a put down for all Native
women.  It was used to put me down even though i am an aboriginal woman
who can pass easily for white.  It was no different for me than to hear
us also being called savages or to hear of anyone being referred to by
racist terms.  I do not believe in the censoring of language for the sake
of political correctness but i do believe in taking into consideration
the feelings of those you may be hurting with your words... since many of
us are not always easily identifiable as native, be aware of the fact
that by your choice of words you may be offering an insult to someone
whose background you may not fully know.

Your most humble and obedient servant



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians
Date: 14 Jan 1999 21:00:53 EST





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians
Date: 14 Jan 1999 21:01:05 EST

we can only hope



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Singer - \"Spinner\"" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re speech patterns
Date: 14 Jan 1999 19:14:48 -0700

Damn right! I got to tell ye that the way I spell when I
trade email or chat online with me friends that rendezvous
ain't near like how I palaver with folks everyday.

(Translation:
Absolutely! I must agree, in that my manner of spelling
while conversing with my rendezvous companions in no way
reflects my normal patterns of speech.)

-
Scott Singer, aka "Spinner"
WWW Rendezvous Web Site:
     http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous
Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners
Web Site
     http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833
---


-----Original Message-----
<[e-mail]>


>
>A mans level of education probally had little to do woth
how he spoke.
>A man tends to use speech patterns to match the group he is
with.
>
>
>
>[e-mail] wrote:
>>
>> I would imagine that mountain man linguistics were based
on where
>they were
>> from,
>> their level of education, and general personality. Many
of the early
>trappers
>> were french or spanish, so I doubt they were saying
"larnin'" any
>more than
>> Kit Carson would say "Sacre Bleu!"  By nature and
pathology, human
>beans like
>> to label everything for identification - alas this also
extends to
>people, who
>> can be compartmentalized on their use (or abuse) of
language.
>Happily,most of
>> us can
>> diffentiate between what a person says and how he says
it.
>Literature does
>> not have the benefit of interpretive facial expressions
and body
>language, so
>> characters are painted more broadly, appealing to our
need to label.
>>
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians
Date: 14 Jan 1999 21:07:16 -0600

Lanney,
  I second what you said. Maybe our joking around does get out of line once
in awhile, but hell life is too short to be serious all the time. The way I
figure it, if'n them NonTexican fellers can't put up with a little joking
around, they have a button that says DELETE ! ! !
Pendleton
P.S.
  It truly is a shame that everyone cannot be fortunate enough to be a
natural born Texican.
----------
> From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians
> Date: Thursday, January 14, 1999 8:02 PM
>
> Ghosting Wolf
> Many of the people on this list are personal friends and sometimes take
advantage of the forum to pass a little harmless banter back and forth.  I
really don't think that it is in e-mail clogging quantities but I, for one,
am sorry it makes you sick.  This kind of exchange takes place from time to
time with a variety of subjects and when a particuar subject has proven to
have no interest for me I simply delete the posts in the thread as I come
to them, never bothering to read them.  Until this current wave of droll
comments to and about Texians (often with me as a target) comes to an end I
suggest you do the same.  Maybe your complaint and this response will put
the kibosh on the Texian thread and let everybody get serious....again.
> Sincerely
> Lanney Ratcliff, Texian
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Thursday, January 14, 1999 4:49 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians
>
>
> >What does all this Texian stuff have to do with this list? I'm getting
pretty
> >sick of my e-mail being clogged up with this stuff. Take it somewhere
else,
> >please. Thanks.
> >
> >Ghosting Wolf
> >
> >
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians
Date: 14 Jan 1999 22:09:48 -0500

Hey!!!! can I play????  My mother was from Sweatwater, Texas.  Do half texans
count??

And I love the "serious" banter.

Linda Holley

yellow rose/pendleton wrote:

> Lanney,
>   I second what you said. Maybe our joking around does get out of line once
> in awhile, but hell life is too short to be serious all the time. The way I
> figure it, if'n them NonTexican fellers can't put up with a little joking
> around, they have a button that says DELETE ! ! !
> Pendleton
> P.S.
>   It truly is a shame that everyone cannot be fortunate enough to be a
> natural born Texican.
> ----------
> > From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
> > To: [e-mail]
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians
> > Date: Thursday, January 14, 1999 8:02 PM
> >
> > Ghosting Wolf
> > Many of the people on this list are personal friends and sometimes take
> advantage of the forum to pass a little harmless banter back and forth.  I
> really don't think that it is in e-mail clogging quantities but I, for one,
> am sorry it makes you sick.  This kind of exchange takes place from time to
> time with a variety of subjects and when a particuar subject has proven to
> have no interest for me I simply delete the posts in the thread as I come
> to them, never bothering to read them.  Until this current wave of droll
> comments to and about Texians (often with me as a target) comes to an end I
> suggest you do the same.  Maybe your complaint and this response will put
> the kibosh on the Texian thread and let everybody get serious....again.
> > Sincerely
> > Lanney Ratcliff, Texian
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> > To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> > Date: Thursday, January 14, 1999 4:49 PM
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians
> >
> >
> > >What does all this Texian stuff have to do with this list? I'm getting
> pretty
> > >sick of my e-mail being clogged up with this stuff. Take it somewhere
> else,
> > >please. Thanks.
> > >
> > >Ghosting Wolf
> > >
> > >
> >




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: tigrbo1 <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns
Date: 12 Jan 1999 21:57:18 -0800

Hi Don,

"Good Condition" as in fully operational, as in shootable??? If so I
would say $450 is  a reasonable price for an original, if that is, it's
truly an original as you can't buy a reproduction for that price.

Best regards,

Terry Smith


Don Neighbors wrote:

> I was offered a 1827 Hoppers Farrey Flintlock rifle in good condition
> for  $450.00 is this a goog buy?







-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Mtn Man Speed Patterns
Date: 14 Jan 1999 19:28:23 -0800

It's the same book -- the full title.

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 8:22 PM


Pat,

Is the book titled "Wah-To-Yah and the Taos Trail " the same book or a
sequel?

Medicine Bear

Pat Quilter wrote:

> In my experience, the best attempt to capture the pure speech pattern of
the
> mountain man was in Lewis Garrards "Yah To Wah", written about an 1846
> season with several original mountain men.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtn Man Speed Patterns
Date: 14 Jan 1999 19:32:49 -0800

Thank you sir...I'm headin' over to Amazon to order it!

Pat Quilter wrote:

> It's the same book -- the full title.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 8:22 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtn Man Speed Patterns
>
> Pat,
>
> Is the book titled "Wah-To-Yah and the Taos Trail " the same book or a
> sequel?
>
> Medicine Bear
>
> Pat Quilter wrote:
>
> > In my experience, the best attempt to capture the pure speech pattern of
> the
> > mountain man was in Lewis Garrards "Yah To Wah", written about an 1846
> > season with several original mountain men.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians
Date: 14 Jan 1999 21:39:17 -0600

Dang right, you can play.  Was you mom from Sweatwater or Sweetwater?  =
There ain't no such thing as a half Texan....one drop of Texan blood is =
enough.
Lanney Ratcliff, Texian
[e-mail]=20
-----Original Message-----


>Hey!!!! can I play????  My mother was from Sweatwater, Texas.  Do half =
texans
>count??
>
>And I love the "serious" banter.
>
>Linda Holley
>
>yellow rose/pendleton wrote:
>
>> Lanney,
>>   I second what you said. Maybe our joking around does get out of =
line once
>> in awhile, but hell life is too short to be serious all the time. The =
way I
>> figure it, if'n them NonTexican fellers can't put up with a little =
joking
>> around, they have a button that says DELETE ! ! !
>> Pendleton
>> P.S.
>>   It truly is a shame that everyone cannot be fortunate enough to be =
a
>> natural born Texican.
>> ----------
>> > From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
>> > To: [e-mail]
>> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians
>> > Date: Thursday, January 14, 1999 8:02 PM
>> >
>> > Ghosting Wolf
>> > Many of the people on this list are personal friends and sometimes =
take
>> advantage of the forum to pass a little harmless banter back and =
forth.  I
>> really don't think that it is in e-mail clogging quantities but I, =
for one,
>> am sorry it makes you sick.  This kind of exchange takes place from =
time to
>> time with a variety of subjects and when a particuar subject has =
proven to
>> have no interest for me I simply delete the posts in the thread as I =
come
>> to them, never bothering to read them.  Until this current wave of =
droll
>> comments to and about Texians (often with me as a target) comes to an =
end I
>> suggest you do the same.  Maybe your complaint and this response will =
put
>> the kibosh on the Texian thread and let everybody get =
serious....again.
>> > Sincerely
>> > Lanney Ratcliff, Texian
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> > To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> > Date: Thursday, January 14, 1999 4:49 PM
>> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians
>> >
>> >
>> > >What does all this Texian stuff have to do with this list? I'm =
getting
>> pretty
>> > >sick of my e-mail being clogged up with this stuff. Take it =
somewhere
>> else,
>> > >please. Thanks.
>> > >
>> > >Ghosting Wolf
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast Iron pot seasoning
Date: 14 Jan 1999 22:38:25 -0500

Don Neighbors wrote:
>
> The best way I have found to season a pot is to take some cooking oil
> and pour some ether on a paper towel then rub it all over the pot. Not
> wear it is dripping just wear you have a good film on it. Then set your
> oven @ 350 degrees. Then place  the pot on the rack for around 30 to 40
> minutes. this well season the pot. When after you clean it I always rub
> a film of cooking oil on it. Never put it away wet it will rust. If it
> ever rust , clean it with steelwool then repeat the seasoning over again
> . This has always worked for me. Useing the pot over and over will
> season it itself. Donnie

Solid veg. oil like Crisco is better.  Place aluminum foil on the
bottom of the oven and set the pot/skillet, etc. upside down on a
rack.  "Bake" for an hour.  Quite right, in that it will get better
with use.  Above all others, I like and use my Lodge cast iron more
than anything else.

Fred

--
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re speech patterns
Date: 15 Jan 1999 02:11:58 EST

In a message dated 1/14/99 1:37:33 PM Mountain Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<<
 A mans level of education probally had little to do woth how he spoke.
 A man tends to use speech patterns to match the group he is with.

  >>
That is a good point and very true......but education would have some
influence,however nominal .



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians
Date: 15 Jan 1999 07:02:27 -0500

Sorta like a virus??<G>
D

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


Dang right, you can play.  Was you mom from Sweatwater or Sweetwater?  There
ain't no such thing as a half Texan....one drop of Texan blood is enough.
Lanney Ratcliff, Texian
[e-mail]
-





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Austin, Tim" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Texians
Date: 15 Jan 1999 07:57:06 -0600

Just goes to show you that those who are not Texians are really jealous.
Mr. Ghosting Wolf is just feeling his insecurities.
Tim Austin



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians
Date: 15 Jan 1999 09:58:11 EST

well at least you fellers did us all the favor of using a subject line we can
recognize as worthy of deleting

Todd Glover



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast Iron pot seasoning
Date: 15 Jan 1999 10:47:52 EST

I cure mine the same way as the others I have read here, but instead of
cooking oil or grease, I use bees wax.  As for period or not I don't know.
Fat was hard to come by out west, that's why beaver tail was so good.  Bee
trees were common.
                                TrapRJoe



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Pearce Gardner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast Iron pot seasoning
Date: 14 Jan 1999 13:34:32 -0500



>I was wondering the best way of seasoning a cast iron pot because I cook
>with one and am wondering how to re-season it bec I lost the directions
>on how to do that.  Anyone have experience with it?
>
I cook with my cast iron pots and pans everyday.  For the pans I use
everyday or so, I just keep a good greasy surface on them.  I use the
scapular to clean off the bits of cooked on food, and then just wipe them
out with a clean paper towel or use water and a wash cloth with little or no
soap.  After they are clean, I will put them back on a warm stove or into a
warm oven.  If the pot needs seasoning, then I spray them with Pam or grease
them with a little butter or oil, wipe clean with towel, and put them in a
oven at 350 for an hour or two.  I have even cooked bacon in an unseasoned
pan at a low temp. and being careful to turn the bacon often so it does not
stick to the bottom of the pan.

I buy only cast iron cookware that has been grounded or milled inside.  I
have even been known to take some sand paper and sand the inside of a pot if
I  did no like the finish in it.

The one problem that I have had with cast iron pots is to store them for a
month or longer with a too thick of a layer of seasoning on them, and the
fat or oil will turn rancid.  I do have certain pots I only use
infrequently, so I will use soap on them when I wash them and not re-oiling
them, but being careful to heat them to dry them.  When I get read to use
them again, I will pull them out several hours before and re-season them.

In short, to season an iron frying pan, slowly cook some bacon in it.

Hope this helps.

Pearce



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dale Nelson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns
Date: 12 Jan 1999 16:00:31 -0800

Don Neighbors wrote:
>
> I was offered a 1827 Hoppers Farrey Flintlock rifle in good condition
> for  $450.00 is this a goog buy?

If you don't want it, can I have a look at it.  That price sounds good
to me.
                DN



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Maggelet Family" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Model 1803 Rifle/ Lewis and Clark
Date: 09 Jan 1999 23:14:55 -0600

There has been much discussed on whether or not L&C used the Model 1803
rifle; the facts are available in the original journals and review of early
government ordnance correspondence.
  The fact that the "short rifle" as specified by Secretary of War Henry
Dearborn was in production by late 1803 can be seen in two 1803 dated
specimens, serial numbered 14 and 94. The letters concerning production can
be seen in Hicks's "Notes on U.S. Ordnance, Volume 1", page 25.
   Lewis's rifles were completed by the eighth of July 1803 at Harpers
Ferry, and improvements to the design were made in December 1803 at the
suggestion of Dearborn (adding a brass band on the forestock, a wider rear
sight, and a bell shaped entry pipe). This evidence strongly suggests that
expedition rifles lacked these improvements. Also, the suggestion that
expedition short rifles had slings is unsubstantiated with the lack of any
supporting documentation or physical evidence. The gun slings procured for
the expedition were obtained from the Philadelphia arsenal (not Harpers
Ferry), and were included with implements for muskets.
  The fact that the Model 1803 was used by the Corps of Discovery can be
seen in four journal entries-
(Lewis, 12 April, 1806)- "we caused all the men who had short rifles to
carry them in order to be prepared for the natives should they make any
attempts to rob or injure them." Clark's comments are similar to Lewis's on
this date.
Ordway (18 June, 1806)- "Drewyer and Shannon Sent on a head to go to the
villages of the pell-oll-pellow nation  they took one of the Short rifles in
order to git a pilot if possable to go over the mountn with us."
Lewis (11 August, 1806)- "... the ball had lodged in my breeches which I
knew to be the ball of the short rifles such as that he had."
 Hope this clears up some misconceptions.

Yours, &c.
Mike Maggelet



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: JW Stephens <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Archives?
Date: 07 Jan 1999 17:08:07 -0800

I was curious if the list digests are archived as I did not receive V1
#208. If anyone still has a copy of this digest and can forward it to
me, many thanks. If there is a standing archive, what is the URL?
--

JW "LRay" Stephens, Squadron Commander; Lobo Solo Squadron
EPP Technician, Primary Color Systems, Inc., Irvine, CA
...
ICQ# 20564775   "mean people suck"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast Iron pot seasoning
Date: 15 Jan 1999 13:19:35 EST

right from the manufacturers mouth.....
<A HREF="http://www.lodgemfg.com/care.htm">Lodge Cast Iron</A>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast Iron pot seasoning
Date: 15 Jan 1999 13:21:05 EST

In a message dated 1/14/99 12:53:49 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< I was wondering the best way of seasoning a cast iron pot ---------
-----(stuff deleted)------------------------------------- >>

Ted,

    The way I always do it is to rub cooking oil all over the inside of the
pot/pan and then just put it on the fire and let it burn off. However I was
given a method by a guy who makes the rondy Ciruit and sets up a cook camp and
serves a real good/cheap breakfast or dinner. (Any body know Doyle? Talked to
him lately?) He told me that he does the same but instead of cooking oil, he
uses bees wax. Rub it into the cooking suface and put on the fire and let it
cook off. Now where I re-season from time to time, he told me that the big pot
and large pan he uses almost exclusively were seasoned some 10 or 15 years ago
and never have had to be re-seasoned.

                                                Longshot



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texicans and Humor!
Date: 15 Jan 1999 11:32:07 -0800

Lanny,

Told you my brother-in-law was a Texican didn't I? We both cut ourselves when we
were taking care of that hugh WA. white tail he got back in late Oct. Our blood
mixed quit by accident. Does that mean I'm now a Texican too? God help me, I'm
now a "Breed"! <BG> Be proud to be one under the circumstances too.

Oh, and you sour puss's out there?!, I shall now drop this thread and get back
to the Great Mystery of History! I remain (in good spirits)........

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Dennis Miles wrote:

> Sorta like a virus??<G>
> D
>
>    "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>   Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>     http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Thursday, January 14, 1999 10:55 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians
>
> Dang right, you can play.  Was you mom from Sweatwater or Sweetwater?  There
> ain't no such thing as a half Texan....one drop of Texan blood is enough.
> Lanney Ratcliff, Texian
> [e-mail]
> -






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast Iron pot seasoning
Date: 15 Jan 1999 11:47:38 -0800



[e-mail] wrote:

> I cure mine the same way as the others I have read here, but instead of
> cooking oil or grease, I use bees wax.  As for period or not I don't know.
> Fat was hard to come by out west, that's why beaver tail was so good.  Bee
> trees were common.
>                                                                 TrapRJoe

TrapRJoe,

 Like not a tree for a 1000 miles! Ain't ya ever heard of "fat cow"? Wonder
where the phrase came from? <BG> Some reported beaver tail to be quit horrid
and an acquired taste at best. But yes the frontiersman often was fat starved.
But bee's wax? Won't hurt you unless you inhale the vapors while you are
heating it but then most any wax is very detrimental to your health if
inhaled. As to being used to season cast iron, I really doubt it since cast
iron was a scarce item on the western frontier by most accounts. Great stuff
to cook in but most of the lists of materials show sheet steel/iron, brass or
copper cooking pots going west. It's true that there was some cast iron cook
ware but not for dragging around on your trapping runs but for use in
established camps and posts. Doesn't take much fat pork, or other oil to
season a cast iron pot. Why resort to bee's wax? But if it works for you and
that's what you want to do go right ahead. I remain.......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: crooked knife
Date: 15 Jan 1999 13:46:28 +0100

I don't know about all crooked knives, but I've
owned a couple and a couple of un-hafted trade
blades.  All of them were single bevel with the
bevel being on the inside of the curve.
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Monte Holder <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pipe smoke
Date: 15 Jan 1999 16:21:01 -0600



JEAN LINDSEY wrote:

>  we use is Kinnikinnick or Bear berry,
> it grows in pine/fur forests, along the ground, most good plant books
> will have a picture and description of it.

I was wondering if  one could grow this stuff in Missouri?  Don't take me
wrong here, but I like growing stuff and grew some tobacco a few years ago
and use it as a theraputic smoke every once in a while.  I know the natives
used a number of different plant, parts and mixtures.  If you think it'd be
possible to set me up a garden of this stuff here in the humid midwest, I'd
like to talk seed exchange with somebody.  Contact off list if interested.

Monte Holder
Saline Co MO




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Hedge and Bonner
Date: 15 Jan 1999 16:32:00 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE40A4.93A48700
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have an original trap from the fur trade era with the names
"Hedge and Bonner" stamped on the springs. I haven't been=20
able to find any reference to either of these names. Can=20
anyone help?

From the northwoods

Tony Clark

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE40A4.93A48700
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I have an original trap from the fur =
trade era=20
with the names</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>"Hedge and Bonner" stamped =
on the=20
springs. I haven't been </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>able to find any reference to either =
of these=20
names. Can </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>anyone help?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>From the northwoods</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Tony =
Clark</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE40A4.93A48700--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ron <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast Iron pot seasoning
Date: 15 Jan 1999 15:56:25 -0700



Pearce Gardner wrote:

> The one problem that I have had with cast iron pots is to store them for a
> month or longer with a too thick of a layer of seasoning on them, and the
> fat or oil will turn rancid.  I do have certain pots I only use
> infrequently, so I will use soap on them when I wash them and not re-oiling
> them, but being careful to heat them to dry them.  When I get read to use
> them again, I will pull them out several hours before and re-season them.

I read somewhere that if you use Canola or Olive oil to season your
pots, that they won't go rancid, like the veg oil or fats.

Lonewolf



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians
Date: 15 Jan 1999 17:37:59 -0600

There you go....
Lanney
-----Original Message-----


>well at least you fellers did us all the favor of using a subject line =
we can
>recognize as worthy of deleting
>
>Todd Glover
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texicans and Humor!
Date: 15 Jan 1999 17:41:56 -0600

Yep,  all Swede coppersmiths are plenty welcome.  Just on drop is all it =
takes....and the right heart.
Lanney
-----Original Message-----


>Lanny,
>
>Told you my brother-in-law was a Texican didn't I? We both cut =
ourselves when we
>were taking care of that hugh WA. white tail he got back in late Oct. =
Our blood
>mixed quit by accident. Does that mean I'm now a Texican too? God help =
me, I'm
>now a "Breed"! <BG> Be proud to be one under the circumstances too.
>
>Oh, and you sour puss's out there?!, I shall now drop this thread and =
get back
>to the Great Mystery of History! I remain (in good spirits)........
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>Dennis Miles wrote:
>
>> Sorta like a virus??<G>
>> D
>>
>>    "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>>   Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>>     http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> Date: Thursday, January 14, 1999 10:55 PM
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians
>>
>> Dang right, you can play.  Was you mom from Sweatwater or Sweetwater? =
 There
>> ain't no such thing as a half Texan....one drop of Texan blood is =
enough.
>> Lanney Ratcliff, Texian
>> [e-mail]
>> -
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texicans and Humor!
Date: 15 Jan 1999 15:50:30 -0800



Lanney Ratcliff wrote:

> Yep,  all Swede coppersmiths are plenty welcome.  Just on drop is all it takes....and the right heart.

Lanney,

Call any other Finn than me a Swede and the Texican blood will come out and bite ya. It's Finlander Lahti,
thank you. Every since we kicked the Swedes out and stood off the Ruskies in "39" and "40" with 19th
Century weapons for a 100 days in Arctic winter contiditons! Course we aren't as proud as Texicans are.
And now I'm part one too. Still don't know what to make of that. But in any case I will remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast Iron pot seasoning
Date: 15 Jan 1999 18:06:36 +0000

I attest to the 'do not use soap on cast iron'  advise, If I even think
of using soap on my wife's cast iron, she'll skin me...  She's awfully
proud of her cast iron (she CAN cook with it, too). Her cast iron was the
only contested property from her divorce from her previous marriage, she
got it.  If you value your scalp, don't get soap near cast iron...!
Hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians
Date: 15 Jan 1999 20:21:01 -0600

Thank you ! Thank you very much!
Pendleton

----------
> From: [e-mail]
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians
> Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 8:58 AM
>
> well at least you fellers did us all the favor of using a subject line we
can
> recognize as worthy of deleting
>
> Todd Glover



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast Iron pot seasoning
Date: 15 Jan 1999 22:07:58 -0500

RANDAL J BUBLITZ wrote:
>
> I attest to the 'do not use soap on cast iron'  advise, If I even think
> of using soap on my wife's cast iron, she'll skin me...  She's awfully
> proud of her cast iron (she CAN cook with it, too). Her cast iron was the
> only contested property from her divorce from her previous marriage, she
> got it.  If you value your scalp, don't get soap near cast iron...!

The Lodge web site warns AGINST using soap, and with GOOD reason.
'Hot water ONLY!  I dry it with a paper towel, heat it on the stove a
tad, then wipe it down with a thin coat of oil.  I know of a fellow
who had just been married, and is/was a chef.  His wife wanted to "do
the right thing," and scrubed all his cast iron with a stainless pad.
A new marriage was "rough" at the beginning.<bg>

Fred

--
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: crooked knife
Date: 15 Jan 1999 22:34:23 EST






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: seasoning dutch oven
Date: 15 Jan 1999 21:43:48 -0600




> >I was wondering the best way of seasoning a cast iron pot because I cook
> >with one and am wondering how to re-season it bec I lost the directions
> >on how to do that.  Anyone have experience with it?
> >

Check out this URL,  http://www.isd.net/stobin/Cooking/dutchov1.html




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: re Bonner and Hedges
Date: 15 Jan 1999 20:09:03 -0800

Tony
    Found a mention of the Bonner and Hedges trap in Russell's Fire Arms
Traps and Tools of the Mountain Man on page 141.
    Says there is a trap in the Milwaukee Public Museum stamped Bonner and
Hughes. Think is was made in Canada. Seems to say that it was made after
1848.
    Later
    Buzz



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pipe smoke
Date: 15 Jan 1999 15:18:01 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_01BE409A.3D5B7DE0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Monte:  Bear berries grow from the east coast to the west it's close to the
ground and it has red berries that taste like winter green candy.  Later
Jon T

----------
: From: Monte Holder <[e-mail]>
: To: [e-mail]
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pipe smoke
: Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 2:21 PM
:
:
:
: JEAN LINDSEY wrote:
:
: >  we use is Kinnikinnick or Bear berry,
: > it grows in pine/fur forests, along the ground, most good plant books
: > will have a picture and description of it.
:
: I was wondering if  one could grow this stuff in Missouri?  Don't take me
: wrong here, but I like growing stuff and grew some tobacco a few years
ago
: and use it as a theraputic smoke every once in a while.  I know the
natives
: used a number of different plant, parts and mixtures.  If you think it'd
be
: possible to set me up a garden of this stuff here in the humid midwest,
I'd
: like to talk seed exchange with somebody.  Contact off list if
interested.
:
: Monte Holder
: Saline Co MO
:
:
------=_NextPart_000_01BE409A.3D5B7DE0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">Monte:  Bear berries grow from the =
east coast to the west it's close to the ground and it has red berries =
that taste like winter green candy.  Later Jon =
T<br><br>----------<br>: From: Monte Holder <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">><br>: To: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pipe smoke<br>: Date: =
Friday, January 15, 1999 2:21 PM<br>: <br>: <br>: <br>: JEAN LINDSEY =
wrote:<br>: <br>: >  we use is Kinnikinnick or Bear berry,<br>: =
> it grows in pine/fur forests, along the ground, most good plant =
books<br>: > will have a picture and description of it.<br>: <br>: I =
was wondering if  one could grow this stuff in Missouri? =
 Don't take me<br>: wrong here, but I like growing stuff and grew =
some tobacco a few years ago<br>: and use it as a theraputic smoke every =
once in a while.  I know the natives<br>: used a number of =
different plant, parts and mixtures.  If you think it'd be<br>: =
possible to set me up a garden of this stuff here in the humid midwest, =
I'd<br>: like to talk seed exchange with somebody.  Contact off =
list if interested.<br>: <br>: Monte Holder<br>: Saline Co MO<br>: <br>: =
</p>
</font></font></font></font></font></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BE409A.3D5B7DE0--



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: bayberry wax
Date: 15 Jan 1999 19:25:12 -0800

Greetings,

Did you ever find a source for bayberry wax for candles?  If so, would
you please share it with me?

Ginny



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dennis Fisher <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas lodges
Date: 16 Jan 1999 21:20:00 -0800

John L. Allen wrote:

> During the last month or so, I've been doing some archival research that has
> led me to a bunch of old (1850-1900) photographs of the central and northern
> Great Plains and the northern Rockies. In virtually all of the photos
> showing Indian villages, the lodges appeared to me to be of something other
> than buffalo or other hide because they were so very bright. Or, alternately,
> are all my assumptions above wrong and have I really looking at hide lodges
> that were somehow bleached white by the elements?

The hide teepees are pretty easy to spot in a photograph or painting.  The hides
are irregular in shape and you can see from the patterns formed from sewing them
together.  The canvas ones have straight seams.  There are probably other clues
to watch for but the seams are a dead give away.

                     Dennis Fisher



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: re Bonner and Hedges
Date: 16 Jan 1999 09:05:30 -0600

Buzz,

Thanks for the reply. I've seen the reference in Russells
"Firearms, Traps and tools of the Mountain Men".  I've
even seen the trap he spoke of in the Milwaukee Public
Museum.

I don't think that Russell was correct in his assumption
that the trap was made in Canada or later than 1848.
I've seen traps that are stamped Standish and Hedge
on the same spring. Standish worked as the head
blacksmith for the AFC on Michilamackinac island
earlier than 1848. I've also seen traps with Standish &
Hedge & Bonner on the same spring. I would guess
that Hedge an Bonner either worked with Standish or
were traders that had obtained these traps and stamped
there own name on them. I've been hoping to find some
reference to Hedge or Bonner in early trading records.

Any other help would be greatly appreciated,

>From the northwoods'

Tony Clark
-----Original Message-----


>Tony
>    Found a mention of the Bonner and Hedges trap in Russell's Fire Arms
>Traps and Tools of the Mountain Man on page 141.
>    Says there is a trap in the Milwaukee Public Museum stamped Bonner and
>Hughes. Think is was made in Canada. Seems to say that it was made after
>1848.
>    Later
>    Buzz
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mike Rock <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #221
Date: 15 Jan 1999 23:14:45 -0600

We should note that honey bees were not introduced to this country
before approd.1622 on the east and 1850 on the west coast.  They do not
migrate rapidly without human intervention.  Thus 'bee trees' all over
is rather a overstatement.  I am trying to trace the historical spread
of the honey bee. I do not have a chronological contour map done yet .



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #221
Date: 17 Jan 1999 09:50:47 EST

In a message dated 1/16/99 11:33:33 PM Central Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:
> We should note that honey bees were not introduced to this country
>  before approd.1622 on the east and 1850 on the west coast.
>  Thus 'bee trees' all over
>  is rather a overstatement.  I am trying to trace the historical spread
>  of the honey bee. I do not have a chronological contour map done yet .

The autobiography of  John Kinzie's wife, "Wau Bun," makes reference to bee
trees being blown down during a storm while en route to Chicago from Fort
Winnebago.  This occurred during a March wind and ice storm, which caused them
to hole up at Waubonsie's camp on the Fox River just outside of Oswego,
Illinois......circa 1810.

Another reference is the writings of Thomas Bangs Thorpe, who devotes a whole
chapter to the subject in his book.  Sorry, I am at work and can't be more
specific.

Dave Kanger



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pipe smoke
Date: 18 Jan 1999 08:42:38 -0600

Are bear berries and wintergreen the same thing?



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Jan 1999 22:24:06 -0600

Does anyone know of a source of tin foil?  Tin foil was being used in =
various ways during the 1820's (but I don't know how much earlier) and =
it might be interesting to explore how we might legitimitely use it.
Lanney Ratcliff



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Wet weather
Date: 19 Jan 1999 18:20:01 -0700

Hello the list,

Seveal of us are getting ready for a winter camp on the Lewis Fork of the
Snake River, right near where Osborne Russell described a hot spring.
Anyway, the forecast is for wet weather, not winter weather.  In getting
ready for this I thought it would be interesting to hear how different folks
deal with wet, sloppy weather.

Looking forward to your answers,

Allen Hall in Fort Hall country



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dennis Fisher <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #221
Date: 17 Jan 1999 19:53:40 -0800

Mike Rock wrote:

> We should note that honey bees were not introduced to this country
> before approd.1622 on the east and 1850 on the west coast.  They do not
> migrate rapidly without human intervention.  Thus 'bee trees' all over
> is rather a overstatement.  I am trying to trace the historical spread
> of the honey bee. I do not have a chronological contour map done yet .

I've noted when reading old journals that any honey bee sightings seemed to
provoke comments on how far west they were sighted.  People knew that bees
were slowly moving west and thought it worth noting.  If I can locate some
of those comments, I will post them to the list.

                Dennis Fisher



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #221
Date: 17 Jan 1999 21:10:42 -0600




Mike
Exactly!!  This is why the common honeybee is called the European honey =
bee.  I was vaguely aware of your facts but did not know the dates.  =
Thanks.  Give us a follow up when you can.
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----


>We should note that honey bees were not introduced to this country
>before approd.1622 on the east and 1850 on the west coast.  They do not
>migrate rapidly without human intervention.  Thus 'bee trees' all over
>is rather a overstatement.  I am trying to trace the historical spread
>of the honey bee. I do not have a chronological contour map done yet .
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas lodges
Date: 17 Jan 1999 17:23:32 -0600

   >John L. Allen wrote:
   >> During the last month or so, I've been doing some archival
   >>research that has  led me to a bunch of old (1850-1900)
   >>photographs of the central and northern  Great Plains and the
   >>northern Rockies. In virtually all of the photos  showing Indian
   >>villages, the lodges appeared to me to be of something other  than
   >>buffalo or other hide because they were so very bright. Or,
   >>alternately,  are all my assumptions above wrong and have I really
   >looking at hide lodges  that were somehow bleached white by the
   >elements? The hide teepees are pretty easy to spot in a photograph
   >or painting.  The hides are irregular in shape and you can see from
   >the patterns formed from sewing them together.  The canvas ones
   >have straight seams.  There are probably other clues to watch for
   >but the seams are a dead give away.
   >Dennis Fisher
 Shall I toss in some confusing information from the 18th century? This is
from a friend in the Indian Dept.(rev war) And I (cannot find it right now)
also have period documentation of natives using canvas during the French &
Indian Wars. Natives have always been great at borrowing from all contacts
they had so it is not odd that some would begin to use canvas as soon as
they could get their hands on it. Remember,I didn't claim that there was any
documentation for the Rocky Mountains,I think there is but I do not have it
available right now. Also note the conical lodge below,its become my
favorite type for speed and efficency,but when I use it at mountain man
events most people do try to call it a "Sloppy tipi." When I go to the
hassle of setting up a wigwam people recognize it immediatly. Rather strange
since I have seen several paintings that have both wigwams and conicals  in
the same picture and some were all or partially covered with sail canvas!
As far as shelters are concerned we use various types of shelters depending
the site ect.  a bit of history first:  The Loyal Confederated Valley was a
native refugee camp near Niagra, the folks were from many tribes.  We in the
Loyal Confederacy use this village as our documentation so to speak for havi
folks of different tribes camped together.  We know that the residents of th
village appropriated the Tents belonging to Butlers Rangers and used them,
they also appropriated or were given worn out sails from the ships working t
lakes and smaller pieces of canvas used to wrap bails of goods.  The Indian
Department Stores at Niagra also had 20-30 oilcloths for issue to officers o
party with the natives.  having said all that you can see why we have no
problems with tents and ect.  Many folks make an actual wigwam frame and cov
it with blankets and canvas/oilcloths.  Others, myself included make a conic
lodge.  Everyone thinks its a teepee but there are many differences.  teepee
are tailored, conicals are not, you put up the frame same as a teepee but th
put the canvas on just like you would bark pieces, IE overlaping pieces and
then some smaller poles or brush to hold everything down.  The conical is th
fastest shelter to put up, requires the least equipment ect and is perfectly
authentic for the northeast.  Actually the Penn/Virginia/NC area is a little
south  for its use but my 18th Century Character and my modern self are stuc
in the south by circumstance not because of any great love for the area so t
speak.


Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well

Is Disney World a people trap operated by a mouse?

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Clapper <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Cedar Creek Outfitters
Date: 19 Jan 1999 23:50:59 -0700

What/who is cedar creek outfitters & where can I find them?  Web site?

Thanks

Steve
C BAR 3 Connected

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Steve Clapper
HorseCraft & LeatherCraft
C BAR 3 CONNECTED

"Serenity is not freedom from the storm,
But peace amid the storm."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather
Date: 20 Jan 1999 15:00:52 -0800

Allen,

Don't get much wet weather in eastern WA but when  we do we take shelter. If we
don't we swell up like a sponge cause we are so ordinarily dehydrated. As to
being in sloppy weather, we get sloppy. <G>

So what exactly are you asking? Cloths, shelter, foot ware, etc.? I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pipe smoke
Date: 20 Jan 1999 17:53:43 EST

In a message dated 99-01-20 17:42:27 EST, you write:

> Are bear berries and wintergreen the same thing?

I think that bear berries and teaberries are the same thing.  Wintergreen is
different.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Douglas  Hepner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: pre-1840 toilet tissue
Date: 20 Jan 1999 19:21:16 -0600

    Ok, I'm just going to go ahead and ask! Does anyone have any references
to what was used as toilet tissue (for lack of a better word) when in the
woods or mountains pre-1840? Did they pack paper, use leaves, or just stop
at streams a lot?

Douglas



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Wet weather
Date: 20 Jan 1999 17:46:52 -0800

Well I see this question has drawn our usual high level of discourse, so
I'll just sail in with my lame pilgrimish thoughts. Being from California,
we don't get THAT much wet weather, although last year was a notable
exception. What we get is typically cold rain (during the winter). I've
never experienced warm muggy rain like they get back East so I'll let them
boys comment. The real experts are probably the Canot du Nord fellows from
the Northwest, who favor wool and wouldn't hardly know what to do if it
didn't rain during an outing. As for me, I abandon all hopes of dry feet
during the day, but save a dry pair of socks or mocs for sleeping. If there
is any real question of freezing, it's important not to get soaked. I talked
my sponsor into a several day cross-country trek some years ago, in Nov,
despite the prediction of rain, thinking that we could make it over to our
state doings before it got too bad, and if we were caught out, we would
"just get wet" like he said happened during his long ride. No such thing.
When the mist settled into a drizzle during Day 3, we held up on the bank of
a gully under my canvas, and spent the next 24 hours slowly improving our
shelter. It did indeed freeze that night and he wasn't going to risk being
soaked. I have been out for several hours in spitting rain with my capote,
and my serape, both of which did a remarkable job of keeping me dry above
the knees, at least. I wear buckskins, and I can move about some in the
mist, but frankly I stay out of hard rain. So far, when caught out, my
overgarments seem to do the job. A good fire and any kind of shelter seems
to be the trick for me.
For What It's Worth (not much)
Pat Quilter 1658

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 5:20 PM


Hello the list,

Seveal of us are getting ready for a winter camp on the Lewis Fork of the
Snake River, right near where Osborne Russell described a hot spring.
Anyway, the forecast is for wet weather, not winter weather.  In getting
ready for this I thought it would be interesting to hear how different folks
deal with wet, sloppy weather.

Looking forward to your answers,

Allen Hall in Fort Hall country



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: MtMan-List: Traps-Milwaukee Public Museum
Date: 20 Jan 1999 19:45:03 -0600 (CST)


>Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:09:03 -0800
>From: "Bz" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: MtMan-List: re Bonner and Hedges
>
>Tony
>    Found a mention of the Bonner and Hedges trap in Russell's Fire Arms
>Traps and Tools of the Mountain Man on page 141.
>    Says there is a trap in the Milwaukee Public Museum stamped Bonner and
>Hughes. Think is was made in Canada. Seems to say that it was made after
>1848.
>    Later
>    Buzz


That's a great museum with a very fine collection.  I was a member of their
professional staff until I moved to Texas in 1990.  The Leman trade rifle
on p. 72 of Russell's book is a fine specimen (and fun to hold, I might ad)
One of the perks of the museum profession.  Further info may be had from
my old friend John Lundstrom, Curator of Americana at the Milwaukee Public
Museum.  Reach him at 414/278-2784.  Give him my regards.

BTW, my 1986 paperback edition of Russell does not have a drawing of a trap
on p. 141.  I haven't found the picture.  Make sure you tell John which
edition you're using and check the page number.

Cheers,
HBC


*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******   Living History . . . Because it's there!   ******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: pre-1840 toilet tissue
Date: 20 Jan 1999 17:49:30 -0800

There was somebody who found a pre-1840 reference to "bum fodder" so they
had SOMETHING, but one suspects the field solutions involved "all of the
choices".
Pat Quilter.

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 5:21 PM


    Ok, I'm just going to go ahead and ask! Does anyone have any references
to what was used as toilet tissue (for lack of a better word) when in the
woods or mountains pre-1840? Did they pack paper, use leaves, or just stop
at streams a lot?

Douglas



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: First Flint and Steel Fire
Date: 20 Jan 1999 20:56:58 -0500 (EST)

Okay gents this is great.  I have been kind of hesitant about making fire
with flint and metal.  Last night we had a fire so I grabbed an old tin can
and poked a small hole in the top.  I then cut up an old t-shirt and put it
in the can and stuck it in the fire.  about 15 min later pulled it out and
let it cool.

So tonight the little lady wants a fire so I break out the flint and steel
and some of the char cloth I made.  I put the char cloth on a little paper
and started to strike flint and steel.  Wala, the char cloth starts glowing
and next thing I have a fire.  This is great.  I mean throwing a knife and
hawk is fun but this is excellant.

Frank V. Rago




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: JW Stephens <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pre-1840 toilet tissue
Date: 20 Jan 1999 18:26:49 -0800

In the northwest especially, the plant "Mullein" makes excellent "bum
fodder" and I recall seeing an oblique reference to it's use. It is also
good for use in a smoking mixture (no reference) and as an infusion for
sore throat (no reference found yet). The plant is easily recognizable
by its soft, lancate leaves and the "fur" on the leaves does a better
job than other, slick leaves. Equally important, the leaves are big and
fairly tough. I get the impression that "bum fodder" was less for bush
lopers and more for tourists, though.

Douglas Hepner wrote:
>
>     Ok, I'm just going to go ahead and ask! Does anyone have any references
> to what was used as toilet tissue (for lack of a better word) when in the
> woods or mountains pre-1840? Did they pack paper, use leaves, or just stop
> at streams a lot?
>
> Douglas

--

JW "LRay" Stephens, Squadron Commander; Lobo Solo Squadron
EPP Technician, Primary Color Systems, Inc., Irvine, CA
...
ICQ# 20564775   "mean people suck"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: First Flint and Steel Fire
Date: 20 Jan 1999 21:39:07 -0600

Frank,
  Cool ! ! ! Sounds like your on your way. Next thing you know you'll be
runnin around the woods in funny lookin clothes and shootin outdated guns.
It's a great hobby that turns into a great lifestyle and eventually a
totally new attitude. Glad to have you onboard.
Pendleton

----------
> From: [e-mail]
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: MtMan-List: First Flint and Steel Fire
> Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 7:56 PM
>
> Okay gents this is great.  I have been kind of hesitant about making fire
> with flint and metal.  Last night we had a fire so I grabbed an old tin
can
> and poked a small hole in the top.  I then cut up an old t-shirt and put
it
> in the can and stuck it in the fire.  about 15 min later pulled it out
and
> let it cool.
>
> So tonight the little lady wants a fire so I break out the flint and
steel
> and some of the char cloth I made.  I put the char cloth on a little
paper
> and started to strike flint and steel.  Wala, the char cloth starts
glowing
> and next thing I have a fire.  This is great.  I mean throwing a knife
and
> hawk is fun but this is excellant.
>
> Frank V. Rago
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather
Date: 20 Jan 1999 22:14:19 -0600

Pat,
  Here in East Texas, we get a lot of rain in the spring, fall, and winter.
Since it is way too hot to do much in the summer, we camp mostly in those
seasons. The real key is to thoroughly grease your mocs using something
that will really stay on them. Keep an extra pair of dry socks to sleep in.
In cold weather wear wool socks. When you are buying wool socks pay close
attention. Buy only the ones that are 100 percent wool. There are many of
them that are labeled as wool, but are some kind of blend. 100 percent wool
is always the best way to go since wool retains it's insulating value much
better when it is wet. This is also true in choosing your upper garments. I
always dress in layers, wearing a flannel shirt next to the skin and a
muslin shirt or fustian shirt over that. A good choice over that is a caped
frock. The cape will really shed water well. In extreme cold I wear a
blanket shirt instead of the frock or sometimes a capote, both are 100
percent wool. The bottom line is if it rains long enough you are going to
get soaked no matter what you do. Just keep the fire going, try to stay
warm, eat plenty of high energy food, and guard against hypothermia. Wet
weather in 35 to 40 degree temps can be really tough sometimes you just
have to hunker down. I hope these tips will help.
Pendleton
BE SAFE  HAVE FUN

----------
> From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
> To: '[e-mail]'
> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Wet weather
> Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 7:46 PM
>
> Well I see this question has drawn our usual high level of discourse, so
> I'll just sail in with my lame pilgrimish thoughts. Being from
California,
> we don't get THAT much wet weather, although last year was a notable
> exception. What we get is typically cold rain (during the winter). I've
> never experienced warm muggy rain like they get back East so I'll let
them
> boys comment. The real experts are probably the Canot du Nord fellows
from
> the Northwest, who favor wool and wouldn't hardly know what to do if it
> didn't rain during an outing. As for me, I abandon all hopes of dry feet
> during the day, but save a dry pair of socks or mocs for sleeping. If
there
> is any real question of freezing, it's important not to get soaked. I
talked
> my sponsor into a several day cross-country trek some years ago, in Nov,
> despite the prediction of rain, thinking that we could make it over to
our
> state doings before it got too bad, and if we were caught out, we would
> "just get wet" like he said happened during his long ride. No such thing.
> When the mist settled into a drizzle during Day 3, we held up on the bank
of
> a gully under my canvas, and spent the next 24 hours slowly improving our
> shelter. It did indeed freeze that night and he wasn't going to risk
being
> soaked. I have been out for several hours in spitting rain with my
capote,
> and my serape, both of which did a remarkable job of keeping me dry above
> the knees, at least. I wear buckskins, and I can move about some in the
> mist, but frankly I stay out of hard rain. So far, when caught out, my
> overgarments seem to do the job. A good fire and any kind of shelter
seems
> to be the trick for me.
> For What It's Worth (not much)
> Pat Quilter 1658
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Allen Hall [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 5:20 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: MtMan-List: Wet weather
>
>
> Hello the list,
>
> Seveal of us are getting ready for a winter camp on the Lewis Fork of the
> Snake River, right near where Osborne Russell described a hot spring.
> Anyway, the forecast is for wet weather, not winter weather.  In getting
> ready for this I thought it would be interesting to hear how different
folks
> deal with wet, sloppy weather.
>
> Looking forward to your answers,
>
> Allen Hall in Fort Hall country



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Eldon L Ayers" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather
Date: 20 Jan 1999 20:38:28 -0700

To tell the truth I do not deal with wet sloppy weather well.  First I get
wet and then I stay wet until I dry out.  It is only a real inconvenience at
first, then it becomes drudgery.  Kind of like Clyman refers to in his
biography when he talks about the first weeks out of Independence in
non-stop rain and drizzle.  Have fun and forget about staying dry.  When we
have a wet doin's up here in Montana we always fill a container with water
and put it where everyone can get their feet in it if we start to dry out.
Get up in the morning, dip your feet in the water and proceed with your day.

Adios
2Badger

-----Original Message-----


>Hello the list,
>
>Seveal of us are getting ready for a winter camp on the Lewis Fork of the
>Snake River, right near where Osborne Russell described a hot spring.
>Anyway, the forecast is for wet weather, not winter weather.  In getting
>ready for this I thought it would be interesting to hear how different
folks
>deal with wet, sloppy weather.
>
>Looking forward to your answers,
>
>Allen Hall in Fort Hall country
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather
Date: 20 Jan 1999 22:30:23 -0600

Eldon,
  You are not  wrong. I'll try to get Lanney Ratcliff to put his journal
entries on the list refering to our stay on the Red River west of Whichta
Falls in mid Feb. It rained everyday for a week, was cold as your
mother-in-laws love, and even had a hail storm. One guys false teeth stayed
frozen in a cup for two or three days. We had a large time and learned more
in that camp in a week then a lot of guys learn about survival in years.
Pendleton

----------
> From: Eldon L Ayers <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather
> Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 9:38 PM
>
> To tell the truth I do not deal with wet sloppy weather well.  First I
get
> wet and then I stay wet until I dry out.  It is only a real inconvenience
at
> first, then it becomes drudgery.  Kind of like Clyman refers to in his
> biography when he talks about the first weeks out of Independence in
> non-stop rain and drizzle.  Have fun and forget about staying dry.  When
we
> have a wet doin's up here in Montana we always fill a container with
water
> and put it where everyone can get their feet in it if we start to dry
out.
> Get up in the morning, dip your feet in the water and proceed with your
day.
>
> Adios
> 2Badger
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 3:39 PM
> Subject: MtMan-List: Wet weather
>
>
> >Hello the list,
> >
> >Seveal of us are getting ready for a winter camp on the Lewis Fork of
the
> >Snake River, right near where Osborne Russell described a hot spring.
> >Anyway, the forecast is for wet weather, not winter weather.  In getting
> >ready for this I thought it would be interesting to hear how different
> folks
> >deal with wet, sloppy weather.
> >
> >Looking forward to your answers,
> >
> >Allen Hall in Fort Hall country
> >
> >
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ron and Gayle Harris" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather
Date: 20 Jan 1999 22:05:21 -0600


-----Original Message-----


>Pat,
>  Here in East Texas, we get a lot of rain in the spring, fall, and winter.
>Since it is way too hot to do much in the summer, we camp mostly in those
>seasons. The real key is to thoroughly grease your mocs using something
>that will really stay on them. Keep an extra pair of dry socks to sleep in.
>In cold weather wear wool socks. When you are buying wool socks pay close
>attention. Buy only the ones that are 100 percent wool. There are many of
>them that are labeled as wool, but are some kind of blend. 100 percent wool
>is always the best way to go since wool retains it's insulating value much
>better when it is wet. This is also true in choosing your upper garments. I
>always dress in layers, wearing a flannel shirt next to the skin and a
>muslin shirt or fustian shirt over that. A good choice over that is a caped
>frock. The cape will really shed water well. In extreme cold I wear a
>blanket shirt instead of the frock or sometimes a capote, both are 100
>percent wool. The bottom line is if it rains long enough you are going to
>get soaked no matter what you do. Just keep the fire going, try to stay
>warm, eat plenty of high energy food, and guard against hypothermia. Wet
>weather in 35 to 40 degree temps can be really tough sometimes you just
>have to hunker down. I hope these tips will help.
>Pendleton
>BE SAFE  HAVE FUN
>
>---Something I like to do is keep Lanney Ratcliff very handy!!!!
In cold, wet, miserable weather, he is the BEST!!!!
The boy has the metaboplism of a 300 pound shrew!!!
Son, if you hug up to him, you will be warm.
No kidding, he realy saved my life at a doins on the Red.
I was sick and wet and about done.
Spent about 24 hours up against him.

ron "litefoot" harris
P.S. thanks "Zwey"!!





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pipe smoke
Date: 20 Jan 1999 22:54:12 EST

close as i can see, the following def's show that teaberry (checkerberry) is
the same as American Wintergreen, which isn't to say its the same as the form
of  wintergreen we refer to today.

BEAR-BERRY, n. A plant, a species of Arbutus.

TEABERRY, n.  [from the use of its leaves as a substitute for tea]
First appeared 1818  aka CHECKERBERRY  check*er*ber*ry (noun)
[checker wild service tree + berry] First appeared 1776  1 : the spicy red
berrylike fruit of an American wintergreen (Gaultheria procumbens) 2 : a plant
producing checkerberries

WINTER-BERRY, n. [winter and berry.] A plant of the genus Prinos.

WINTER-GREEN, n. [winter and green.] A plant of the genus Pyrola, useful as a
vulnerary.  VULNERARY, a. Any plant, drug or composition, useful in the cure
of wounds. Certain unguents, balsams and the like, are used as vulneraries

these came from Noahs 1828 and the modern M-W dictionaries.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather
Date: 20 Jan 1999 22:45:54 EST

wet weather? pray for snow <G>.  or try making an oil cloth poncho; wear lots
of wool to stay warm even when wet, and keep something dry to wear when
sleeping. oh yeah, having some anti-freeze in your jug (and then your belly)
will help you forget about how wet it is, well at least until you wake up in
the middle of the night FROZEN cuz you drank it and forgot to put on the dry
stuff.  yhs   Barney Fife



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pre-1840 toilet tissue (Mullein)
Date: 20 Jan 1999 20:39:32 -0800



JW Stephens wrote:

> In the northwest especially, the plant "Mullein" makes excellent "bum
> fodder" snip

Mullein can be found almost anywhere in the US and is especially common in the
west.  As For TP I have had the odious task of chopping out an acre of mullein in
an area which was to be reclaimed.  The stuff caused burning and irritation from
the fine pubescence (hair) which covers the plant.  I itched and burned for quite
some time. These plants were green. I have heard of Mullein being used as TP
several times.  Although I have not done so, I would imagine that the dry leaves
should be used and not green plants.  Anyone who has actually done so, Please
tell us if you used green or dry Mullein.  On another note Mullein can be
pulverised and used to stun fish in dammed up streams and the fibrous stalks can
be used to make cordage, and I have been told, fire drills.

Your most onry' and disobedient hivernant
Sega




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cedar Creek Outfitters
Date: 20 Jan 1999 20:59:04 -0800 (PST)



On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Steve Clapper wrote:
> What/who is cedar creek outfitters & where can I find them?  Web site?

Steve, the last address I had for them was;
http://pages.prodigy.com/cedarcreekoutfitters/

it's dead now.  They did specialize in Saddles, clothing (leather and
cloth), brain tanned leather, and more.

Dat's all folks

Regards

Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cedar Creek Outfitters
Date: 21 Jan 1999 00:03:44 EST

Dont know if this is the right one, but...
<A HREF="http://www.blueridge.net/~cedarcreek/index.html">Cedar Creek Stables
and Outfitters</A>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john c. funk,jr" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather
Date: 20 Jan 1999 22:35:24 -0800

Eldon,

Please contact me off line.  Need some info.  Thanks
John Funk         [e-mail]


-----Original Message-----


>To tell the truth I do not deal with wet sloppy weather well.  First I get
>wet and then I stay wet until I dry out.  It is only a real inconvenience
at
>first, then it becomes drudgery.  Kind of like Clyman refers to in his
>biography when he talks about the first weeks out of Independence in
>non-stop rain and drizzle.  Have fun and forget about staying dry.  When we
>have a wet doin's up here in Montana we always fill a container with water
>and put it where everyone can get their feet in it if we start to dry out.
>Get up in the morning, dip your feet in the water and proceed with your
day.
>
>Adios
>2Badger
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 3:39 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Wet weather
>
>
>>Hello the list,
>>
>>Seveal of us are getting ready for a winter camp on the Lewis Fork of the
>>Snake River, right near where Osborne Russell described a hot spring.
>>Anyway, the forecast is for wet weather, not winter weather.  In getting
>>ready for this I thought it would be interesting to hear how different
>folks
>>deal with wet, sloppy weather.
>>
>>Looking forward to your answers,
>>
>>Allen Hall in Fort Hall country
>>
>>
>
>






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ted A Hart <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather
Date: 21 Jan 1999 02:52:52 EST

Where in East Texas do you live?  I have family in the Tyler area and
have been trying to find a job thereabouts...let me know if you happen to
know of several job possiblities....since this isn't pertaining to the
list please contact me off the list.  Thanks.

Ted Hart
[e-mail]

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather
Date: 21 Jan 1999 05:57:41 -0600

And neither of us have been the same since.  I gotta go to work now but =
I will post parts of my journal from the Red River Rendezvous tonight.  =
Memorable.
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----


>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: yellow rose/pendleton <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 9:33 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather
>
>
>>Pat,
>>  Here in East Texas, we get a lot of rain in the spring, fall, and =
winter.
>>Since it is way too hot to do much in the summer, we camp mostly in =
those
>>seasons. The real key is to thoroughly grease your mocs using =
something
>>that will really stay on them. Keep an extra pair of dry socks to =
sleep in.
>>In cold weather wear wool socks. When you are buying wool socks pay =
close
>>attention. Buy only the ones that are 100 percent wool. There are many =
of
>>them that are labeled as wool, but are some kind of blend. 100 percent =
wool
>>is always the best way to go since wool retains it's insulating value =
much
>>better when it is wet. This is also true in choosing your upper =
garments. I
>>always dress in layers, wearing a flannel shirt next to the skin and a
>>muslin shirt or fustian shirt over that. A good choice over that is a =
caped
>>frock. The cape will really shed water well. In extreme cold I wear a
>>blanket shirt instead of the frock or sometimes a capote, both are 100
>>percent wool. The bottom line is if it rains long enough you are going =
to
>>get soaked no matter what you do. Just keep the fire going, try to =
stay
>>warm, eat plenty of high energy food, and guard against hypothermia. =
Wet
>>weather in 35 to 40 degree temps can be really tough sometimes you =
just
>>have to hunker down. I hope these tips will help.
>>Pendleton
>>BE SAFE  HAVE FUN
>>
>>---Something I like to do is keep Lanney Ratcliff very handy!!!!
>In cold, wet, miserable weather, he is the BEST!!!!
>The boy has the metaboplism of a 300 pound shrew!!!
>Son, if you hug up to him, you will be warm.
>No kidding, he realy saved my life at a doins on the Red.
>I was sick and wet and about done.
>Spent about 24 hours up against him.
>
>ron "litefoot" harris
>P.S. thanks "Zwey"!!
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: WET WEATHER
Date: 21 Jan 1999 08:13:40 -0600

Ted Hart,
  Sorry, I hit the wrong button and lost your e-mail address. Contact me at
: [e-mail]
    Pendleton



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: wet weather, bum fodder
Date: 21 Jan 1999 09:41:21 +0100

Dealing with wet weather varies GREATLY depending
on whether you are on the trail or in a r'd'vous
type camp.  On the trail (horse or foot) I have
found that the biggest advancement in my personal
comfort came when I got a pair of period brogans
(shoes).  Well greased, they keep my feet warm and
dry long, long, after everybody with mocs has
gotten wet and miserable feet.  They work
especially well in 30 to 35 degrees and 6" of wet
snow days.
Also, whem wearing mocs in the wet, wool socks are
essential and a layer of dry grass inside the mocs
(sort of form yourself an insole of grass, as much
as you can get in and still get the mocs on) helps
a lot.  It doesn't keep your feet from getting
wet, but it puts a layer between your sock and the
soaked hide.  I got the idea from a pair of mocs
excavated from a pre-historic cave in Wyoming.
Worked then, works now.

As to bum fodder, in the winter snow,  that's
right snow, works well.  Its not really painful
like you thinkit would be, and actually its
refreshing.  Sort of like a menthol cigarette.
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: John Colter question
Date: 21 Jan 1999 12:01:45 EST

Hey Henry:

Did you ever get any definitive answer from your Blackfoot friends about thier
version of the John Colter run story? Seems like they had a different version
and the question was, do they have any substantive evidence that it didn't
happen exactly as we have heard. I can understand some embarrasment on thier
part, and why they would therefore tell a different story. But unless there is
some kind of evidence or reason to believe otherwise, then I won't be like the
many in Colter's own day who wouldn't believe what he had to say.

Happy Trails
Todd Glover



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re:TP
Date: 21 Jan 1999 16:31:23 -0600




>
>
> >    Ok, I'm just going to go ahead and ask! Does anyone have any references
> >to what was used as toilet tissue (for lack of a better word) when in the
> >woods or mountains pre-1840? Did they pack paper, use leaves, or just stop
> >at streams a lot?
>

The article at this URL deals with those time we find ourselve without TP.
http://www.survival.com/rants.htm    Enjoy.  ;-)           J.D.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Terry Landis" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: pre-1840 toilet tissue (Mullein)
Date: 21 Jan 1999 16:05:12 -0800

I've used mullein both green and brown (dried leaves) works good, but I
prefer fern. 4 or 5 layered together works the best.

ymhs, Terry Landis

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Chris Sega
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 8:40 PM




JW Stephens wrote:

> In the northwest especially, the plant "Mullein" makes excellent "bum
> fodder" snip

Mullein can be found almost anywhere in the US and is especially common in
the
west.  As For TP I have had the odious task of chopping out an acre of
mullein in
an area which was to be reclaimed.  The stuff caused burning and irritation
from
the fine pubescence (hair) which covers the plant.  I itched and burned for
quite
some time. These plants were green. I have heard of Mullein being used as TP
several times.  Although I have not done so, I would imagine that the dry
leaves
should be used and not green plants.  Anyone who has actually done so,
Please
tell us if you used green or dry Mullein.  On another note Mullein can be
pulverised and used to stun fish in dammed up streams and the fibrous stalks
can
be used to make cordage, and I have been told, fire drills.

Your most onry' and disobedient hivernant
Sega





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: wet weather, bum fodder
Date: 21 Jan 1999 18:12:42 -0600

After reading this post I ran outside to gather a dishpan full of snow =
for my next trip to the water closet.  Imagine my surprise when I =
realized that it was sunny and 79 degrees and there was no snow....and =
hadn't been for about two years.  Fooey!!  I guess I will have to take =
up menthol cigarettes.
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----


>Dealing with wet weather varies GREATLY depending
>on whether you are on the trail or in a r'd'vous
>type camp.  On the trail (horse or foot) I have
>found that the biggest advancement in my personal
>comfort came when I got a pair of period brogans
>(shoes).  Well greased, they keep my feet warm and
>dry long, long, after everybody with mocs has
>gotten wet and miserable feet.  They work
>especially well in 30 to 35 degrees and 6" of wet
>snow days.
>Also, whem wearing mocs in the wet, wool socks are
>essential and a layer of dry grass inside the mocs
>(sort of form yourself an insole of grass, as much
>as you can get in and still get the mocs on) helps
>a lot.  It doesn't keep your feet from getting
>wet, but it puts a layer between your sock and the
>soaked hide.  I got the idea from a pair of mocs
>excavated from a pre-historic cave in Wyoming.=20
>Worked then, works now.
>
>As to bum fodder, in the winter snow,  that's
>right snow, works well.  Its not really painful
>like you thinkit would be, and actually its
>refreshing.  Sort of like a menthol cigarette.
>Allen Chronister
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather
Date: 21 Jan 1999 17:29:11 -0700


>Don't get much wet weather in eastern WA but when  we do we take shelter. If we
>don't we swell up like a sponge cause we are so ordinarily dehydrated. As to
>being in sloppy weather, we get sloppy. <G>
>
>So what exactly are you asking? Cloths, shelter, foot ware, etc.? I remain....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>
All of the above.  Ideas, tips, etc.  I'm sure folks would like new ideas.

Thanks,

Allen Hall in normally dry Fort Hall country




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: , bum fodder DANGER!!! INCLUDES A SHOT AT A TEXIAN!! DANGER!!!
Date: 21 Jan 1999 19:53:01 -0500

OOOOOHHH BOY!!! Here we go!!!!
I thought Texians were tough!!!  Use a cactus!! Them little pricklies are
like a scrubber on a good brush!!
D

P.S Don't even THINK about whining to me about this post...I put a warning
in the subject line.


   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


After reading this post I ran outside to gather a dishpan full of snow for
my next trip to the water closet.  Imagine my surprise when I realized that
it was sunny and 79 degrees and there was no snow....and hadn't been for
about two years.  Fooey!!  I guess I will have to take up menthol
cigarettes.
Lanney Ratcliff





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: , bum fodder DANGER!!! INCLUDES A SHOT AT A TEXIAN!!
Date: 21 Jan 1999 21:36:29 -0500

Thank all of you...including Allen, for the great laughs on this sight.  All I
can think about is a pepermint patty and the thrill of going out in the
snow...getting hand fulls of cactus and having an "exotic" time.  Didn't want
to use the other word errotic on this web.  What imaginations and whit "ya all"
have.  And to think this use to be just a droll sight of extreme detail and
facts. And don't get me wrong, I need that too.  I need the education.   We
have all (the Texans and antiTexans) and other extremist, have just got to find
an event to sit around the fire and lie, lay, stretch the truth...what
ever....to each other.   I will supply the drink.  Have not done that since the
Colorado 1980 event.  And that was one of the great ones.  I needed the gigles.

Linda Holley

Dennis Miles wrote:

> OOOOOHHH BOY!!! Here we go!!!!
> I thought Texians were tough!!!  Use a cactus!! Them little pricklies are
> like a scrubber on a good brush!!
> D
>
> P.S Don't even THINK about whining to me about this post...I put a warning
> in the subject line.
>
>    "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>   Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>     http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Thursday, January 21, 1999 7:30 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: wet weather, bum fodder
>
> After reading this post I ran outside to gather a dishpan full of snow for
> my next trip to the water closet.  Imagine my surprise when I realized that
> it was sunny and 79 degrees and there was no snow....and hadn't been for
> about two years.  Fooey!!  I guess I will have to take up menthol
> cigarettes.
> Lanney Ratcliff




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather
Date: 21 Jan 1999 18:58:06 -0800

> All of the above.  Ideas, tips, etc.  I'm sure folks would like new ideas.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Allen Hall in normally dry Fort Hall country

Allen,

Didn't mean to sound flippant but some times folks aren't looking for long
dissertations and open ended questions got too many ways to be answered.

For myself, I like to stay dry. Mainly because I live in dry country like you do.
Bit lower elevations but just as dry or drier and rain and natural water feels funny
on the skin. I know it won't hurt me but that's  a lifetime of conditioning. So when
I go trekking and know the weather will be damp, I take precautions. My friends on
the wet side don't seem to mind and often don't go to the trouble I will go to. You
already have gotten most of the good answers so most of what I can offer is just
support.

I like wool. I hunted in ID. through most of Nov. and into Dec. for elk and it
rained and made wet snow most of the two weeks I was there. I kept myself and my
rifle dry under a wool/wool lined, capped great coat that came down to my calves.
Picked a few booger lice out of it but it was worth it. I like to wear a four piece
shoe pack/center seam moc that has been well greased with lard and bee's wax. Two
sole pieces and two side pieces. They do a good job of keeping my feet dry most of
the day. I wear at least one wool blanket bootie inside built just like the shoe
pack. Wool knee socks and knee breeches or leather leggings or both. In snow I will
wear wool leggings tied below the knee. Wool shirts and a wool vest or weskit and a
wide brimmed felt hat. In snow I will wear pucker toe mocs of brain tan with the
wool booties and two pair of wool socks inside. Great for snow shoeing and
surprisingly non-skid on snow and some ice conditions.

My bed roll is a blanket wrapped in an oil cloth of linseed/bee'swax/oil paint,
treated muslin. I usually carry a light tarp of cloth a bit heavier than muslin for
a shelter of 8' by 10'. If rain or snow is gona fall straight down, I rig the tarp
over a long lead about shoulder high and build a fire under one gable end just
inside so the rain won't put the fire out. If I need protection from wind and snow
or rain, I rig it more lean-to style.

I have a snow cover to carry my rifle or Tulle' in but if I want it at the ready I
just carry it tucked under the great coat or cradled in my arms. My buddies in Idaho
were using a piece of sock with the toe cut out to pull over their locks and just
pulled the sock back when they were ready to shoot. Seemed to work better than a
cows knee. I naturally carry a flint lock so I can look at the touch hole and prime
and be assured that the gun will go when needed. (can't say that for percussion) In
two weeks of wet Idaho hunting, I never had a hang fire or failure to ignite. Didn't
unload every night, only after I had shot for some reason and the gun needed
cleaning a bit before reloading. Some times I would not clean but just reload.

Well those are my experiences and probably not much different than what most do.
Hope I have been of help. I remain.......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:TP
Date: 21 Jan 1999 19:50:32 -0800

So I go to this page, think to myself..."this is disgusting" and read a little
more.  Well, I haven't laughed so hard ALL YEAR!
Thanks J. D. I needed that!

Medicine Bear


John Dearing wrote:

> The article at this URL deals with those time we find ourselve without TP.
> http://www.survival.com/rants.htm    Enjoy.  ;-)           J.D.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather
Date: 21 Jan 1999 22:59:35 EST

In a message dated 1/21/99 8:02:26 PM Mountain Standard Time, [e-mail]
writes:

<< I like to wear a four piece shoe pack/center seam moc that has been well
greased with lard and bee's wax. Two sole pieces and two side pieces.  >>

I'm very interested in your four piece shoe pack. I'm getting ready to make
winter moc combination from elk hides I tanned. I've looked at a number of
designs and combinations and I am still researching. Could you explain your
system in more detail, i.e. various parts/combination, order of wear, designs
used, construction, hints, what would you do different, etc.  Thanks, looking
forward to your post.

Ghosting Wolf



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather
Date: 21 Jan 1999 23:20:32 -0800



[e-mail] wrote:

Could you explain your system in more detail, i.e. various parts/combination,
order of wear, designs used, construction, hints, what would you do different,
etc.  Thanks, looking forward to your post.

> Ghosting Wolf

Gosting Wolf,

Using blanket material, make two soles for each foot, tracing the pattern while
wearing what ever socks you will wear. Stitch across the soles at ball of foot and
just ahead of heal to keep the two pieces from moving. Cut two pieces of wool
blanket material that will go from center back to center front, one piece for each
side. Make each piece as tall as you want but a bit taller than your moc sides
will be. Start stitching the pieces on from center back. Put one piece on and then
the other until they meet in the front at center of foot or just inside big toe.
Sew up front center seam with a gathering stitch until you have them sewn up the
front to the forward part of leg. You can cut off the extra in front or let it
wrap the leg. Cut off extra above front center seam quit close to stitch. Sew up
back seam from bottom to top with whatever stitch you like. Make one pair ,or more
while your at it.

Make a pattern for the soles while wearing your socks and blanket booties. Make it
a bit big, leaving at least a quarter inch of seam allowance. I like to use oil
tanned leather for the soles and I use leather that is about twice as thick as one
letter on this page (like the "p" and "a" in "page") or a bit thicker but not so
heavy that you can't work with it. Put the sole pieces together flesh side to
flesh side and then punch or bore stitch holes all the way around about 3/16"ths
or so apart but no more than 1/4" and about a 1/4" in from the edge.  Turn the
sole pieces over and carefully cut a slit into the bottom piece between holes for
the thread to lay in so it is not quickly worn through. Cut sides of softer
leather with flesh side out if commercial tanned and hair side out if brain
tanned. Sew together just like the wool booties, with stitch showing. Gather up
the front seam to the front of the leg with an in and out single gathering stitch.
Pull thread up towards the leg to gather. Add another stitch to this one after it
is gathered if you wish. Cut the extra leather off above the center seam but leave
some of the sides to wrap around the ankle.

Cut small pairs of slits or punch holes, two sets at the back and one set at
center of inside and outside and one set inside and outside at front of moc
opening to lace with a thong. Make the thong long enough so it will wrap around
the leg a couple times and have enough left for a knot. If you use brain tan and
it is cut 1/4" wide and greased, you can tie with a square knot. Usually won't
come undone and is easy to untie if you don't pull it too tight.

Grease up mocs with a mix of grease and bee's wax in a proportion you can use in
any weather without serious warming. Put the grease mix on in a warm environment.
and let it soak in. You can add some Neet's Foot Oil if you like. Others may have
their favorite recipe. Make booties and mocs a bit loose for better warmth and use
a fairly light leather for the upper parts. You can add a tongue if you want but I
just wrap the extra of the uppers around the ankle. Any thing not clear?

I make pucker toes so they will fit loose over wool booties and socks too. There
are plenty of patterns available for these. I only grease the lower parts of these
mocs and probably don't have to do that if I wear them in cold snow. Hope this was
what you were looking for. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: First Flint and Steel Fire
Date: 22 Jan 1999 03:29:15 EST

Good for you Frank.  This past summer, I went to my first rendezvous and got
to experience many things for the first time. including making fire with a
flint and steel.  I had to borrow a set from my best friend and to my
amazement, after a few practice strikes, I got a fired in a timed 13
seconds!!.  I was shocked,and hooked instantly.  keep up the good work and
keep your powder dry.
Wade Smith



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kurt Westenbarger" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pipe smoke
Date: 22 Jan 1999 15:51:53 -0700


--------------5DBFDE7AC7F73883602B8DF3
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Bearberry and wintergreen are not the same.
Bearberry is Arctostaphylos  uva-ursi   Wintergreen is Pyrola sp.  often Pyrola
eliptica  or  Pyrolia rotundifolia.
I'm not familiar with the common name teaberry.
Kurt

[e-mail] wrote:

> In a message dated 99-01-20 17:42:27 EST, you write:
>
> > Are bear berries and wintergreen the same thing?
>
> I think that bear berries and teaberries are the same thing.  Wintergreen is
> different.



--------------5DBFDE7AC7F73883602B8DF3
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
Bearberry and wintergreen are not the same.
<BR>Bearberry is <I>Arctostaphylos  uva-ursi <B>  </B></I>Wintergreen
is <I>Pyrola sp.</I>  often <I>Pyrola eliptica  </I>or
<I>Pyrolia rotundifolia.</I>
<BR>I'm not familiar with the common name teaberry.
<BR>Kurt

<P>[e-mail] wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>In a message dated 99-01-20 17:42:27 EST, you write:

<P>> Are bear berries and wintergreen the same thing?

<P>I think that bear berries and teaberries are the same thing.  Wintergreen
is
<BR>different.</BLOCKQUOTE>
 </HTML>

--------------5DBFDE7AC7F73883602B8DF3--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather
Date: 22 Jan 1999 18:29:57 -0600

Allen,
Several Januarys ago at a winter camp on the south high bank of the Red =
River about 40 miles east of Wichita Falls, Texas mother nature took =
several of us to school.   The first day or so was humid and quite warm =
and no great care was taken by some to handle cold or wet weather.  High =
winds, one day from the south and the next day from the north, buffetted =
the camp and then a brief, moderate shower sent folks scurrying to =
batten down the hatches a little.  James Craker and Ron Harris decided =
to pitch their two 10 X 10 tarps together, with James's brand new, =
"waterproof as the hood of a '57 Buick", tarp stretched over a ridge =
pole forming a snug little cubby.  Later when the heavy rains came they =
were shocked to discover that the new tarp barely slowed down the water. =
 Everything and everybody under the leaking tarp was soon wet and fairly =
miserable and dreading the cold wind that was blowing the rain away from =
camp...temporarily, it turned out.  During the brief lull between =
storms, Harris abandoned his close friend, James, to his fate and begged =
entrance to my little, bitty, mostly dry, pryamid tent, claiming =
illness.  Later he did indeed prove to be ill (which is a story best =
told around a fire)  but his most immediate problem was that he was =
very, very cold, with hypothermia a real possibility.  We shed what =
inhibitions we each had (precious few, to be sure) and bunked down =
together under my dry blankets, using my abundant body heat in an =
attempt to stop his chills while we endured a loud thunderstorm, =
complete with lightening and hail.   He pretty much stayed there for a =
day and a half, much of the time shivering like he was passing a peach =
pit, but as soon as I evicted him he felt well enough to chase a skunk.  =
Later Harris recalled one of his favorite books and paraphrased it,  =
saying that the camp on the Red " was the best of times, it was the =
worst of times, it was the winter of our discount tent" .
We often tell this story (with certain omitted details included) and we =
make lots of people laugh.  But the results easily could have been =
different with serious consequences.  You can bet that all of us now =
take great pains to know how ALL our gear works.  Don't assume anything. =
=20
My personal method is to prepare for the worst, choosing a campsite =
carefully, taking note of drainage potential.  If I can find a little =
hump or other high point I camp there and with any luck I can be assured =
that water will run away from my camp. If I have properly aligned the =
opening of my fly away from the most likely wind direction in the event =
of a storm I have one less problem to contend with.  I like to stash a =
little dry kindling and fire wood somewhere under my fly in case of a =
soaking rain.  And for those real wet camps I always bring some food =
that keeps well and needs no cooking....just in case.  I know these =
"tips" are old hat to most of the people on the list, but I have seen =
some pretty skilled men set their camps in an obvious wash and spend =
most of their time trying to keep themselves dry when the rain came.  I =
guess that I am saying that it is wise to scout carefully for a really =
good campsite, studying the terrain closely and running worst case =
senarios through you head as you smoke a pipe or a Marsh Wheeling =
stogie.  Take you time everytime.

Lanney Ratclif
Tejas Party

-----Original Message-----


>Hello the list,
>
>Seveal of us are getting ready for a winter camp on the Lewis Fork of =
the
>Snake River, right near where Osborne Russell described a hot spring.
>Anyway, the forecast is for wet weather, not winter weather.  In =
getting
>ready for this I thought it would be interesting to hear how different =
folks
>deal with wet, sloppy weather.
>
>Looking forward to your answers,
>
>Allen Hall in Fort Hall country
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Yucca stalk as tinder
Date: 22 Jan 1999 19:43:01 EST

Greetings All:

Several weeks ago the discussion centered on types of materials for tinder.
Some opined that cloth probably wasn't the first choice of the Mountaineers
due to its costly and valuable nature. Others offered alternatives such as the
ballyhooed hardwood tree fungus. That not being widely available in the West,
others mentioned alternatives.
     Capt Lahti, a familiar name to this group, stated that he'd tried Yucca
with success. I asked tougue -in-cheek if he would mind supplying us with
some. I was surprised at his quick and generous reply. Not only did he send me
an envelope full of dried stalks from his admittedly limited reserve, but all
he asked in return was that I experiment and list my findings here for all to
see. Whall now, hyar's to put out!
     After finally locating my char can, I struck up a small fire out back and
tossed my can in filled with several pieces on yucca stalk about 1 1/2 inches
long and 1/2 inch in diameter. After the gasses stopped venting out of the
small hole in the can I removed it from the fire and let it cool. Taking it
inside to my hobby room, I placed several well charred chunks in the lid of my
striker tin and began striking the sparks downward onto the yucca. This was a
little awkward for me as I'm used to placing char cloth on my flint and
striking to flint with the steel.  It took about twenty strikes before a spark
caught on one of the chunks. When it did however it spread easily and couldn't
be extinguished short of immersing it in water. I touched another chunk to it
and it caught easily as well. I was surprised at the heat the two little
chunks gave off. I think this has great advantages ove cloth as it burned much
longer.
     I'd call this little experiment a resounding success and will be filling
my can with Yucca and keeping my eye open for more.
      Thanks Capt Lahti for your generosity!

Happy Trails

Todd Glover




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Carpenters <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Yucca stalk as tinder
Date: 22 Jan 1999 17:02:10 -0800



[e-mail] wrote:
>
> Greetings All:
>
>
>      Capt Lahti, a familiar name to this group, stated that he'd tried Yucca
> with success.
>
Todd:

Was this the leaves/needles of the yucca or the bark/stalk?  I live in
the So California Mountains and close to the high desert where yucca
grows in abundance.  I'll do some experimenting also.

Carp



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Yucca stalk as tinder
Date: 22 Jan 1999 17:38:43 -0800

Actually, Yucca has many uses:
   For those unfamiliar with this sentry of the Southwest, the yucca family
of plants grows as a central cluster of leaves in the form of SHARP-tipped
spears, from which a central stalk emerges and grows to some feet or yards,
blooms, goes to seed, then dies. By the following year the whole plant is
dry, and eventually the leaves rot away and the stalk falls over.
   The well-dried spears (leaves) surrounding an expired plant have great
tinder potential, especially the frayed fibrous bases which are as good as
any tow.
The well-dried central stalk is the material from which Lahti and Todd made
good char -- it's quite like balsa wood, except a little hard on the outside
like a shell, and somewhat softer and more pithy inside. It's also a good
material for anything light and stiff -- I made a very serviceable and
comfortable pack frame by taking one 3" dia by 6 foot stalk, splitting it
down the middle, chopping the two sections into four pieces, and lashing
them into a rectangle with ends protruding, using rawhide, and cutting
notches somewhat to locate the corners. Wear it with the round sides towards
the back, and lash a couple more sticks of any wood horizontally across the
middle for more tie points.
   A growing plant is a great source of fiber for cordage. Sever a few
leaves at their base, they're usually 18-24" long. Trim off the sharp edges,
whose fibers peter out, and strip the green "binder" away from the central
fibers with the thumbnail or a dull edge. You'll get plenty of full length
fibers which can be twisted into cordage, and the Indians were supposed to
have sewn directly with the sharp tip.
   A tender green stalk is somewhat edible, although the sap is astringent,
and the flowers are also supposed to have some food value.
Pat Quilter

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 5:02 PM




[e-mail] wrote:
>
> Greetings All:
>
>
>      Capt Lahti, a familiar name to this group, stated that he'd tried
Yucca
> with success.
>
Todd:

Was this the leaves/needles of the yucca or the bark/stalk?  I live in
the So California Mountains and close to the high desert where yucca
grows in abundance.  I'll do some experimenting also.

Carp



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Yucca stalk as tinder
Date: 22 Jan 1999 21:38:41 EST

Carp,

It was the main stalk...well dried

Todd Glover



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Yucca stalk as tinder
Date: 22 Jan 1999 18:48:47 -0800

Okay, now that the market has been established and demand already
growing...anyone want to become a "Yucca Sutler"?  Sounds like the
worlds best char!

Medicine Bear





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bob Spencer)
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Yucca stalk as tinder
Date: 22 Jan 1999 22:37:47 -0400

>The well-dried central stalk is the material from which Lahti and Todd made
>good char -- it's quite like balsa wood, except a little hard on the outside
>like a shell, and somewhat softer and more pithy inside. It's also a good
>material for anything light and stiff --

For those of you who like to use a Moses stick or walking stick, it also is
excellent for that, light and strong. A stalk 1 1/2" at the bottom and
about 5' long has worked very well for me. It also makes a great monopod
rest for shooting from the standing position when you are forced to do
that.

Bob

Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
non illegitimi carborundum est





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:TP
Date: 23 Jan 1999 09:57:50 EST

Johnny Apple seed is a great story but just think if he was planting (not sure
of spelling) Caltalpa trees.  Large soft leaves.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Yucca stalk as tinder
Date: 23 Jan 1999 12:04:26 -0700

Two friends and I lived off the land for a weekend, took no food with us.
 Couldn't find any game so ate for 3 days Indian breadroot and Yukka
seeds.  Right off the pod, they burned our throats.  Roast them in a skillet
and they are good.  The root also suds up for soap, hence their name of
Soapweed.

DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants

Pat Quilter wrote:
>Actually, Yucca has many uses:
>   For those unfamiliar with this sentry of the Southwest, the yucca
family
>of plants grows as a central cluster of leaves in the form of
SHARP-tipped
>spears, from which a central stalk emerges and grows to some feet or
yards,
>blooms, goes to seed, then dies. By the following year the whole plant
is
>dry, and eventually the leaves rot away and the stalk falls over.
>   The well-dried spears (leaves) surrounding an expired plant have
great
>tinder potential, especially the frayed fibrous bases which are as good
as
>any tow.
>The well-dried central stalk is the material from which Lahti and Todd
made
>good char -- it's quite like balsa wood, except a little hard on the
outside
>like a shell, and somewhat softer and more pithy inside. It's also a
good
>material for anything light and stiff -- I made a very serviceable and
>comfortable pack frame by taking one 3" dia by 6 foot stalk, splitting
it
>down the middle, chopping the two sections into four pieces, and lashing
>them into a rectangle with ends protruding, using rawhide, and cutting
>notches somewhat to locate the corners. Wear it with the round sides
towards
>the back, and lash a couple more sticks of any wood horizontally across
the
>middle for more tie points.
>   A growing plant is a great source of fiber for cordage. Sever a few
>leaves at their base, they're usually 18-24" long. Trim off the sharp
edges,
>whose fibers peter out, and strip the green "binder" away from the
central
>fibers with the thumbnail or a dull edge. You'll get plenty of full
length
>fibers which can be twisted into cordage, and the Indians were supposed
to
>have sewn directly with the sharp tip.
>   A tender green stalk is somewhat edible, although the sap is
astringent,
>and the flowers are also supposed to have some food value.
>Pat Quilter
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Carpenters [mailto:[e-mail]]
>Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 5:02 PM
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Yucca stalk as tinder
>
>
>
>
>[e-mail] wrote:
>>
>> Greetings All:
>>
>>
>>      Capt Lahti, a familiar name to this group, stated that he'd tried
>Yucca
>> with success.
>>
>Todd:
>
>Was this the leaves/needles of the yucca or the bark/stalk?  I live in
>the So California Mountains and close to the high desert where yucca
>grows in abundance.  I'll do some experimenting also.
>
>Carp
>
>
>
>RFC822 header
>-----------------------------------
>
>Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with
ESMTP
>  (SMTPD32-4.03) id A848AF0088; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 18:39:20 MDT
>Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1)
>    id 103s17-0001zM-00
>    for [e-mail]; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 18:37:41 -0700
>Received: from [207.168.191.2] (helo=mail.qsc.net)
>    by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1)
>    id 103s15-0001z7-00
>    for [e-mail]; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 18:37:39 -0700
>Received: by NT4_SERVER with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9)
>    id <DP28G6JN>; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:38:44 -0800
>Message-ID: <04059F2BE306D2118F1C00A0C90CD67045146B@NT4_SERVER>
>From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
>To: "'[e-mail]'" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Yucca stalk as tinder
>Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:38:43 -0800
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9)
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>    charset="iso-8859-1"
>Sender: [e-mail]
>Precedence: bulk
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>X-UIDL: 915555375
>Status: U
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: TP
Date: 23 Jan 1999 13:47:38 -0600




> >So I go to this page, think to myself..."this is disgusting" and read a little
> >more.  Well, I haven't laughed so hard ALL YEAR!
> >Thanks J. D. I needed that!
>
> Medicine Bear

Medicine Bear,
Thanks, but I can't take the credit for writing that  humorous bit of information, only finding
it.
The best part is, most of us can relate to the incidents related on that page. <LOL>
J.D.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: wet weather
Date: 23 Jan 1999 14:08:54 -0600

> >Using blanket material, make two soles for each foot, tracing the pattern while
> >wearing what ever socks you will wear. Stitch across the soles at ball of foot and
> >just ahead of heal to keep the two pieces from moving.

> >Make a pattern for the soles while wearing your socks and blanket booties. Make it
> >a bit big, leaving at least a quarter inch of seam allowance. Put the sole pieces together
> flesh side >toflesh side and then punch or bore stitch holes all the way around about
> 3/16"thsor so apart but >no more than 1/4" and about a 1/4" in from the edge.  Turn the sole
> pieces over and carefully cut >a slit into the bottom piece between holes for the thread to
> lay in so it is not quickly worn >through.

I use the same basic idea in making my shoe packs, but I make a pattern by putting
on an old sock over what ever socks I plan to wear, and using duct tape (period, it ain't ;-))
tape from the heel to toe to the height on your leg you want the mocs to come, then wrap
another layer of tape around your foot, and draw in the seam lines. Remove the sock and
cut along the seam lines, and trace the pattern onto thick paper being sure to leave a 3/8
of an inch seam allowance. With a few adjustments, this pattern will insure that you don't
waste good leather making a pair of ill fitting mocs.

For the shoe pack itself, I sew one sole to the upper with linen thread, and stitch an
oil cloth moisture barrier and the bottom sole onto the top sole and upper with leather
thongs.  This makes replacing a worn bottom sole, or damaged moisture barrier easier
than taking the whole moc apart.

For the liner, I make a center seam moc, several inches taller than the shoe pack, out
of fleece. Real fleece from a sheep. This works real well in the most severe MO weather
that the trek gods have thrown at us.

I also tie my mocs on with a 3/8 inch, or so wide leather thongs long enough to wrap
around the bottom of the mocs, over the instep and around the back of the ankle
several times. Helps a good deal with traction in wet, muddy, or snowy conditions.

Your Humble Servant
J.D.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: wet weather
Date: 23 Jan 1999 13:54:04 -0800



John Dearing wrote:

>  This works real well in the most severe MO weather
> that the trek gods have thrown at us.
>
> I also tie my mocs on with a 3/8 inch, or so wide leather thongs long enough to wrap
> around the bottom of the mocs, over the instep and around the back of the ankle
> several times. Helps a good deal with traction in wet, muddy, or snowy conditions.

John,

I recall seeing your method posted some weeks ago. Very innovative construction method and one I
will have to try. One thing I left out of my original post on this was a similar way of making the
shoe pack fit well and give extra traction. I take a two inch wide strap of sole leather and fit
it under the arch so that it will come up a couple inches on both sides of the foot with the moc
on. With a hole at each end, I pass a thong through both holes, across the arch and use the extra
to wrap around the ankle before tying. This is similar to your method but I find it doesn't wear
out as fast as thongs do passing under the moc. Thanks for the additional ideas. I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>
>






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Yucca stalk as tinder
Date: 23 Jan 1999 14:35:33 -0800



Frank wrote:

> Okay, now that the market has been established and demand already
> growing...anyone want to become a "Yucca Sutler"?  Sounds like the
> worlds best char!
>
> Medicine Bear

Medicine Bear,

I have about a dozen stalks out in the yard that go about 3' long by
thumb size at the base. Contact me of list if your interested. I
remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gary Bell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather
Date: 23 Jan 1999 15:19:56 -0800

A note from the Ancient Boy Scout.....
We used to "trench our tents", meaning that we carefully sited these canv=
as and ironwood monstrsities (drainage, wind direction and ant hills bein=
g some of the considerations), and then carefully dug trenches to collect=
 and drain away the inevitable downpour......

Lanney Ratcliff wrote:

> Allen,
> Several Januarys ago at a winter camp on the south high bank of the Red=
 River about 40 miles east of Wichita Falls, Texas mother nature took sev=
eral of us to school.   The first day or so was humid and quite warm and =
no great care was taken by some to handle cold or wet weather.  High wind=
s, one day from the south and the next day from the north, buffetted the =
camp and then a brief, moderate shower sent folks scurrying to batten dow=
n the hatches a little.  James Craker and Ron Harris decided to pitch the=
ir two 10 X 10 tarps together, with James's brand new, "waterproof as the=
 hood of a '57 Buick", tarp stretched over a ridge pole forming a snug li=
ttle cubby.  Later when the heavy rains came they were shocked to discove=
r that the new tarp barely slowed down the water.  Everything and everybo=
dy under the leaking tarp was soon wet and fairly miserable and dreading =
the cold wind that was blowing the rain away from camp...temporarily, it =
turned out.  During the brief lull between storms,
> Harris abandoned his close friend, James, to his fate and begged entran=
ce to my little, bitty, mostly dry, pryamid tent, claiming illness.  Late=
r he did indeed prove to be ill (which is a story best told around a fire=
)  but his most immediate problem was that he was very, very cold, with h=
ypothermia a real possibility.  We shed what inhibitions we each had (pre=
cious few, to be sure) and bunked down together under my dry blankets, us=
ing my abundant body heat in an attempt to stop his chills while we endur=
ed a loud thunderstorm, complete with lightening and hail.   He pretty mu=
ch stayed there for a day and a half, much of the time shivering like he =
was passing a peach pit, but as soon as I evicted him he felt well enough=
 to chase a skunk.  Later Harris recalled one of his favorite books and p=
araphrased it,  saying that the camp on the Red " was the best of times, =
it was the worst of times, it was the winter of our discount tent" .
> We often tell this story (with certain omitted details included) and we=
 make lots of people laugh.  But the results easily could have been diffe=
rent with serious consequences.  You can bet that all of us now take grea=
t pains to know how ALL our gear works.  Don't assume anything.
> My personal method is to prepare for the worst, choosing a campsite car=
efully, taking note of drainage potential.  If I can find a little hump o=
r other high point I camp there and with any luck I can be assured that w=
ater will run away from my camp. If I have properly aligned the opening o=
f my fly away from the most likely wind direction in the event of a storm=
 I have one less problem to contend with.  I like to stash a little dry k=
indling and fire wood somewhere under my fly in case of a soaking rain.  =
And for those real wet camps I always bring some food that keeps well and=
 needs no cooking....just in case.  I know these "tips" are old hat to mo=
st of the people on the list, but I have seen some pretty skilled men set=
 their camps in an obvious wash and spend most of their time trying to ke=
ep themselves dry when the rain came.  I guess that I am saying that it i=
s wise to scout carefully for a really good campsite, studying the terrai=
n closely and running worst case senarios through
> you head as you smoke a pipe or a Marsh Wheeling stogie.  Take you time=
 everytime.
>
> Lanney Ratclif
> Tejas Party
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 4:38 PM
> Subject: MtMan-List: Wet weather
>
> >Hello the list,
> >
> >Seveal of us are getting ready for a winter camp on the Lewis Fork of =
the
> >Snake River, right near where Osborne Russell described a hot spring.
> >Anyway, the forecast is for wet weather, not winter weather.  In getti=
ng
> >ready for this I thought it would be interesting to hear how different=
 folks
> >deal with wet, sloppy weather.
> >
> >Looking forward to your answers,
> >
> >Allen Hall in Fort Hall country
> >
> >




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: John Colter question
Date: 23 Jan 1999 19:34:38 -0600 (CST)

Todd, and others,

The general consensus is that it's Blackfeet oral tradition, nothing more,
nothing less.  However, oral tradition does not become documented history
without corroborating evidence of some type.  I don't know whether Colter
told the truth, or just a half truth.  Maybe he did escape, or maybe they
let him think he was getting away, just to have a bit of psychological fun
at his expense (it wouldn't be the first or last time).  Who knows?  What
is clear is that similar encounters with Eastern tribes did occur, and the
historical record is full of documented cases of narrow escapes like
Colter's.  So, based on that, it's possible that Colter was telling the
truth for the most part, but we really have no way of knowing.  He was an
uncommon character, and I'm willing to give him the benefit of a doubt.  I
believe "something" happened along the lines of what he said, but we can't
be sure whether he or his scribe Thomas James added some embellishment.
What's interesting is that his descriptions of Yellowstone were right on
the money, and he continued to tell people about it despite their
disbelief.    Yellowstone was beyond most folks' comprehension, but Indian
encounters and narrow escapes were not.  Therefore, people were more
willing to believe his escape story, as if narrow escapes were common
enough for them to say "why not?"

I'm willing to say, without evidence to the contrary, that Colter was
captured and he escaped.  Whether it happened exactly the way he said,
that's up to someone else to decide, as long as they have hard evidence to
back it up.

Cheers,
HBC


>
>Hey Henry:
>
>Did you ever get any definitive answer from your Blackfoot friends about thier
>version of the John Colter run story? Seems like they had a different version
>and the question was, do they have any substantive evidence that it didn't
>happen exactly as we have heard. I can understand some embarrasment on thier
>part, and why they would therefore tell a different story. But unless there is
>some kind of evidence or reason to believe otherwise, then I won't be like the
>many in Colter's own day who wouldn't believe what he had to say.
>
>Happy Trails
>Todd Glover



*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******   Living History . . . Because it's there!   ******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: John Colter question
Date: 23 Jan 1999 21:04:43 EST

Henry,

Sounds like good reasoning to me. As we all know, the truth is often stranger
than fiction.

Regards,

Todd Glover



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: zaslow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Yucca stalk as tinder
Date: 23 Jan 1999 23:13:16 -0800 (PST)

Frank,

The stuff is great.  I mentioned a long time ago that I use it, but here in
California (the land of protecting rocks as endangered species) I believe
the Yucca is a protected plant.  As such, you are not supposed to take it
out of its natural habitat or especially sell it.  I don't know if that is
true anywhere else?

Happy Yucca hunting.

Best Regards,

Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
________________________________________________________________________________
At 06:48 PM 1/22/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Okay, now that the market has been established and demand already
>growing...anyone want to become a "Yucca Sutler"?  Sounds like the
>worlds best char!
>
>Medicine Bear
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: zaslow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: First Flint and Steel Fire
Date: 23 Jan 1999 23:28:59 -0800 (PST)

I'm glad to hear that some of you guys are having such good luck with your
first try at lighting a fire with flint & steel.  I unfortunately wasn't
quite as successful.  This happened probably about 10 or 11 years ago, when
I decided to get serious about all this stuff.  I'd been going to Rendezvous
for about 3 or 4 years and had accumulated all the best plunder.  Thought it
was time I should buy a flint & steel set and learn how to do it right.  Got
some tow and made char and was ready to try it out.  Didn't want to do it in
front of any of my mountain men friends, though, so I waited until I was
camping with only my wife and children.  We were going to start a fire and I
thought it was time to impress them with my knowledge, so I announced I was
going to start the fire with flint & steel.  After calming them down from
laughing, I got everything ready and started the feat.  Well I kept getting
lots of sparks on the char (which I laid on the ground) but it didn't seem
to catch.  I tried for 5, 10 and 15 minutes.  Finally after that time I got
a spark to catch on the char.  I put it in the tow and started to blow on
it.  Sure enough, I got lots of smoke, but never got the stuff to ignite.  I
tried again for another 10 minutes, but by that time my wife was really
disgusted and tired of my fooling around.  She took out her cigarette
lighter and started the fire in about 3 seconds.

Well after that I was determined to really learn how to do it right and
before I tried it again, I asked someone at Rendezvous to help me.  He did
and haven't had a problem since.  I guess a little humility can go a long way.

Best Regards,

Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: RE: Tinder
Date: 24 Jan 1999 07:15:56 -0600

I  was just reading a book where a person used a small piece
of " unspun flax " set in the pan of his flintlock with some priming
powder and the touch hole plugged to start his fire.
Got me to wondering if any of you fellas' have used your rifles
to start a fire or have heard of "flax" being used as tinder.

From the northwoods,

Tony Clark




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Eldon L Ayers" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: RE: Tinder
Date: 24 Jan 1999 09:13:39 -0700

Hi Tony,

I have tried unspun flax a number of times when starting fires.  It is
probably one of the poorest bird's nest materials I have used.  With
perseverance I finally got a flame, but I wouldn't want to use it when
everything depended on a fire pronto.  I watched a fella start a fire with
his pistol in the manner you described, but it seemed to me a lot of trouble
compared to using a flint and steel.

2Badger

Wisdom  does not come from study.
Knowledge does.
Wisdom comes from showing up for life.


-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of northwoods
Sent:    Sunday, January 24, 1999 6:16 AM

I  was just reading a book where a person used a small piece
of " unspun flax " set in the pan of his flintlock with some priming
powder and the touch hole plugged to start his fire.
Got me to wondering if any of you fellas' have used your rifles
to start a fire or have heard of "flax" being used as tinder.

>From the northwoods,

Tony Clark






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: MtMan-List: Flax
Date: 24 Jan 1999 09:28:08 -0700 (MST)



The subject of Flax came up this morning.  In a book I have The Kentucky
Rifle, by  John G.W. Dillin on Page 102, Plate  67

Unspun Flax is mentioned:  "Unspun flax, used for swabbing bore"

Can't see what it would not burn with a spark, from a Flintlock Pan.

Believe I saw some on do just that in a Hollywood movie.

B



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John W. Stephens" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax
Date: 24 Jan 1999 08:45:02 -0800

Haw Haw Ha. Tha's funny, Bruce. Caught ya.

"BRUCE S. DE LIS" wrote:
>
> Believe I saw some on do just that in a Hollywood movie.
>
> B

--
JW "LRay" Stephens
...
ICQ# 20564775   "Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bob Spencer)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Tinder
Date: 24 Jan 1999 12:39:46 -0400

>I  was just reading a book where a person used a small piece
>of " unspun flax " set in the pan of his flintlock with some priming
>powder and the touch hole plugged to start his fire.
>Got me to wondering if any of you fellas' have used your rifles
>to start a fire or have heard of "flax" being used as tinder.

Tony, I've use my flintlock to start a fire many times. It's simple and
very reliable.

I've never plugged the touch-hole while doing this, and have done it with a
loaded gun on several occasions without ever having the gun fire. I simply
fold a piece of good charcloth and put it into the pan, making certain it
is covering the touch-hole, close the frizzen and fire the gun. The char
catches easily, and can then be removed and put into the tinder. Works like
a charm.

I've never used flax for starting a fire, don't find that it works well.
Char can be made of linen cloth, which is flax, of course, but you have to
be careful not to over cook it, it will lose too much substance easily.

Another way to use your flintlock for fire starting is to put 10 grains or
so of powder down the empty barrel, then ram down a good sized piece of
char cloth. Fire the gun straight up, and a piece of glowing char will come
floating down. Works, but I see no reason to do it, since putting the char
into the pan works so well.

Bob

Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
non illegitimi carborundum est





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: RANDAL J BUBLITZ <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax
Date: 24 Jan 1999 10:19:12 +0000

I use flax, in conjunction with other materials.  I'll gather whatever is
at hand, then mix it with flax.  I carry a small bag with flax, well
dried (non treated) rope, fatwood, a candle stub, etc... as my wet
weather fire kit.  I  test old rope to make sure it's not been treated
with a fire retardant, if it's good, I hang pieces on the back fence for
a season so it will start to break down.  I then shred it for use in
birds nests.  If you use a loaded gun to start a fire, you may end up on
a Darwin list.... be careful!!! Also, if using powder to start fire- keep
horn, etc... well away from fire.  We named a guy "second chance"  after
he was shaking the last granules of powder from an 'empty horn' onto a
smoldering bird's nest- It sounded like a canon shot!  Shards of horn
went far away- lucky none found him, his hand hurt though!   Hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pre-1840 toilet tissue (Mullein)
Date: 14 Jan 1999 13:56:14 -0600

Sega,
   I've used mullen leaves as TP for many trecks in East Texas.  I'm not sure if
growing temps would make the hair more spiny.  Have also used the leaves (green and
crushed)with a little oil or grease as a poultice for hemorohids.
Chases Hawks
Chris Sega wrote:

> JW Stephens wrote:
>
> > In the northwest especially, the plant "Mullein" makes excellent "bum
> > fodder" snip
>
> Mullein can be found almost anywhere in the US and is especially common in the
> west.  As For TP I have had the odious task of chopping out an acre of mullein in
> an area which was to be reclaimed.  The stuff caused burning and irritation from
> the fine pubescence (hair) which covers the plant.  I itched and burned for quite
> some time. These plants were green. I have heard of Mullein being used as TP
> several times.  Although I have not done so, I would imagine that the dry leaves
> should be used and not green plants.  Anyone who has actually done so, Please
> tell us if you used green or dry Mullein.  On another note Mullein can be
> pulverised and used to stun fish in dammed up streams and the fibrous stalks can
> be used to make cordage, and I have been told, fire drills.
>
> Your most onry' and disobedient hivernant
> Sega






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Tinder
Date: 24 Jan 1999 21:03:42 -0800



Eldon L Ayers wrote:

> "I have tried unspun flax a number of times when starting fires.  It is
> probably one of the poorest bird's nest materials I have used"

It may already be common knowledge, but here in the SE, sun-dried spanish moss
is abundant, keeps very well, and makes excellent bird's nest.  Also abundant
(like yucca in the high desert), is palmetto which I will experiment with to
learn whether it will serve for char.  More to follow.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax
Date: 24 Jan 1999 18:44:50 -0800



BRUCE S. DE LIS wrote:

> Unspun Flax is mentioned:  "Unspun flax, used for swabbing bore"
>
> Can't see what it would not burn with a spark, from a Flintlock Pan.
>
> Bruce,

Flax or tow is a great way to wipe out the bore. It is a bit of a myth
though, that you can get it to ignite by throwing a spark into it in your
pan or otherwise without making it into char first. If you work at it long
enough, it might work but it would be a luck thing at best. I've tried to
use it as tinder and have never had that much success. As char, linen or
flax cloth will work ok if you don't let it get too fragile.

There are a number of things that make good char, including punky wood like
rotten birch and cottonwood. Yucca stalks and other pithy woody plants make
usable char as do some types of bracken fungus. Experiment with what you
find in your area and when you go to other locals.

I like burlap sacks or gunny sacks for tinder and cedar bark, inner
cottonwood bark and inner bark of sage along with dry grass's work too to
take the heat from your char and turn it into flame. Experiment. Birch bark
from most types makes a great flame catcher if pitch pine or fat wood is not
available and will burn even when damp. Pitch nodules off bruised trees will
help keep a flame going.

As to starting your char in a flint lock with out first plugging the touch
hole, I think Gen. Bob lives a charmed life and would like to touch him some
time to see if his good luck would rub off on me. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax
Date: 24 Jan 1999 21:54:30 EST

In a message dated 1/24/99 8:47:56 PM Central Standard Time, [e-mail]
writes:

> As to starting your char in a flint lock with out first plugging the touch
>  hole, I think Gen. Bob lives a charmed life and would like to touch him
some
>  time to see if his good luck would rub off on me.

Something would rub off on you alright, but it wouldn't be luck.  However, you
are so full of the substance already, you probably wouldn't notice. <G>

Je remaine
LeVieuxReynard



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: John Colter question
Date: 24 Jan 1999 19:56:07 -0700

On the same line of thinking about escapes, Charlie Hanson and several of us
were at Chradon Fur Trade Days and someone mentioned different escapes by
adventures, trappers, travelers and how they would return an be caught again
and again escape.

Charlie had a funny remark, "they're the first UPS riders, they bring
supplies, get caught and escape, a little while later they do it again, what
a deal for the locals, free goods and free delivery".

Brother what a way to make a living !


-----Original Message-----


>Todd, and others,
>
>The general consensus is that it's Blackfeet oral tradition, nothing more,
>nothing less.  However, oral tradition does not become documented history
>without corroborating evidence of some type.  I don't know whether Colter
>told the truth, or just a half truth.  Maybe he did escape, or maybe they
>let him think he was getting away, just to have a bit of psychological fun
>at his expense (it wouldn't be the first or last time).  Who knows?  What
>is clear is that similar encounters with Eastern tribes did occur, and the
>historical record is full of documented cases of narrow escapes like
>Colter's.  So, based on that, it's possible that Colter was telling the
>truth for the most part, but we really have no way of knowing.  He was an
>uncommon character, and I'm willing to give him the benefit of a doubt.  I
>believe "something" happened along the lines of what he said, but we can't
>be sure whether he or his scribe Thomas James added some embellishment.
>What's interesting is that his descriptions of Yellowstone were right on
>the money, and he continued to tell people about it despite their
>disbelief.    Yellowstone was beyond most folks' comprehension, but Indian
>encounters and narrow escapes were not.  Therefore, people were more
>willing to believe his escape story, as if narrow escapes were common
>enough for them to say "why not?"
>
>I'm willing to say, without evidence to the contrary, that Colter was
>captured and he escaped.  Whether it happened exactly the way he said,
>that's up to someone else to decide, as long as they have hard evidence to
>back it up.
>
>Cheers,
>HBC
>
>
>>
>>Hey Henry:
>>
>>Did you ever get any definitive answer from your Blackfoot friends about
thier
>>version of the John Colter run story? Seems like they had a different
version
>>and the question was, do they have any substantive evidence that it didn't
>>happen exactly as we have heard. I can understand some embarrasment on
thier
>>part, and why they would therefore tell a different story. But unless
there is
>>some kind of evidence or reason to believe otherwise, then I won't be like
the
>>many in Colter's own day who wouldn't believe what he had to say.
>>
>>Happy Trails
>>Todd Glover
>
>
>
>*****************************************
>Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
>[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
>806/742-2442           Box 43191
>FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
>******   Living History . . . Because it's there!   ******
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax
Date: 24 Jan 1999 20:03:41 -0700

Capt. Lahti' I have seen what these gentlemen are referring to about
starting the flax or tow in a flintlock pan, after a demo I wondered over
and picked up the "regular tow" as what this person called it. Low and
behold it had a faint smell of a cleaner on it, turned out he was using
"jute" for this demo and for his super fast flint & steel demo. Wonder what
plant he got refined jute off of ?

Buck

-----Original Message-----


>
>
>BRUCE S. DE LIS wrote:
>
>> Unspun Flax is mentioned:  "Unspun flax, used for swabbing bore"
>>
>> Can't see what it would not burn with a spark, from a Flintlock Pan.
>>
>> Bruce,
>
>Flax or tow is a great way to wipe out the bore. It is a bit of a myth
>though, that you can get it to ignite by throwing a spark into it in your
>pan or otherwise without making it into char first. If you work at it long
>enough, it might work but it would be a luck thing at best. I've tried to
>use it as tinder and have never had that much success. As char, linen or
>flax cloth will work ok if you don't let it get too fragile.
>
>There are a number of things that make good char, including punky wood like
>rotten birch and cottonwood. Yucca stalks and other pithy woody plants make
>usable char as do some types of bracken fungus. Experiment with what you
>find in your area and when you go to other locals.
>
>I like burlap sacks or gunny sacks for tinder and cedar bark, inner
>cottonwood bark and inner bark of sage along with dry grass's work too to
>take the heat from your char and turn it into flame. Experiment. Birch bark
>from most types makes a great flame catcher if pitch pine or fat wood is
not
>available and will burn even when damp. Pitch nodules off bruised trees
will
>help keep a flame going.
>
>As to starting your char in a flint lock with out first plugging the touch
>hole, I think Gen. Bob lives a charmed life and would like to touch him
some
>time to see if his good luck would rub off on me. I remain....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bob Spencer)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax
Date: 25 Jan 1999 00:25:43 -0400

>As to starting your char in a flint lock with out first plugging the touch
>hole, I think Gen. Bob lives a charmed life and would like to touch him some
>time to see if his good luck would rub off on me. I remain....

Naaaah, it's skill, not luck. <G> With careful attention to getting the
touch-hole covered with the charcloth, how is that different then plugging
it?

Bob

Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
non illegitimi carborundum est





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bob Spencer)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax
Date: 25 Jan 1999 00:25:44 -0400

>Something would rub off on you alright, but it wouldn't be luck.  However, you
>are so full of the substance already, you probably wouldn't notice. <G>
>
>Je remaine
>LeVieuxReynard

One thing I've learned on these lists, never argue with an expert in the
field. I defer to your experience, LePieuReynard. <G>

Bob

Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
non illegitimi carborundum est





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: First Flint and Steel Fire
Date: 25 Jan 1999 01:06:40 -0500

At the Alafia we just got home from, I FINALLY learned to make fire with
flint adn steel and char cloth... IT WAS GREAT!!!  I found I can make a
"birdsnest" from old rope bits and peices I had laying around...  Use it as
you would tow and go from there...

Addison Miller






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax
Date: 24 Jan 1999 22:22:49 -0800



Bob Spencer wrote:

> Naaaah, it's skill, not luck. <G> With careful attention to getting the
> touch-hole covered with the charcloth, how is that different then plugging
> it?

Gen. Bob,

As I said I will Look forward to shaking your hand some day in hopes that some of
that "skill" rubs off. <BG> I won't even attempt to explain to you how a piece of
glowing char next to a barrel full of black powder differs from some kind of
inert plug in the touch hole. <g> Best of luck to you my friend. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>
>
>
>
>






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax
Date: 24 Jan 1999 22:26:38 -0800



[e-mail] wrote:

> Something would rub off on you alright, but it wouldn't be luck.  However, you
> are so full of the substance already, you probably wouldn't notice. <G>
>
> Je remaine
> LeVieuxReynard

TOF,

Can't argue with your asessment of the situation. Wish you had used more <GGGG>'s
though. <BG> I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax
Date: 24 Jan 1999 22:29:26 -0800



Barry Conner wrote:

>  Low and
> behold it had a faint smell of a cleaner on it, turned out he was using
> "jute" for this demo and for his super fast flint & steel demo. Wonder what
> plant he got refined jute off of ?
>
> Buck,

Very interesting observation. Never heard of such a thing before. Was he trying
to sell his method? Or just showing off? I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>
>






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bob Spencer)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax
Date: 25 Jan 1999 01:33:30 -0400

>I won't even attempt to explain to you how a piece of
>glowing char next to a barrel full of black powder differs from some kind of
>inert plug in the touch hole. <g>

Oh, I didn't understand you were trying to build the fire *in* the pan.
Disregard previous instructions. <VBG>

Bob

Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
non illegitimi carborundum est





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax
Date: 24 Jan 1999 22:33:54 -0800



Bob Spencer wrote:

> >Something would rub off on you alright, but it wouldn't be luck.  However, you
> >are so full of the substance already, you probably wouldn't notice. <G>
> >
> >Je remaine
> >LeVieuxReynard
>
> One thing I've learned on these lists, never argue with an expert in the
> field. I defer to your experience, LePieuReynard. <G>
>
> Gen. Bob,

I do believe the frenchman has the range sir! Got us dead to rights! I recommend an
orderly withdrawal until first light sir. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>
>
>






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax
Date: 24 Jan 1999 22:38:01 -0800



Bob Spencer wrote:

> Oh, I didn't understand you were trying to build the fire *in* the pan.
> Disregard previous instructions. <VBG>
>
> Bob

Gen. Bob,

I have sir, most assuredly! <VVBG> I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>
>
> Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
> non illegitimi carborundum est






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Nichols Bros.
Date: 25 Jan 1999 00:42:55 -0800

?  for the List,, I have an old clever, its 13 and a 1/2 inchs
long,handle is 5 1/2 long,the blade is 2 inchs wide,1/8 to 5/16, and the
 tapers back to 1/8 incks thick. wood scales.  On the blade it has
      Nichols Bros.
   Warranted Shear Steel
    Greenfield Mass           Would anyone have any information or be
able to date this cleaver?     thank you  Frank Novotny
                                           [e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Duncan Macready <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Tinder
Date: 25 Jan 1999 20:22:17 +1300


>
>
>Eldon L Ayers wrote:
>
>> "I have tried unspun flax a number of times when starting fires.  It is
>> probably one of the poorest bird's nest materials I have used"

I use dried sphagnum moss as a tinder .Its authentic and I can buy it by
the bag from the garden supplies store. It burns realy well when dried out,
It was also used as a daiper liner.
YMOS
Cutfinger




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: JW Stephens <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nichols Bros.
Date: 25 Jan 1999 02:30:17 -0800

I believe that you have found the first known instance of the famous
"beaver cleaver," backbone of the castor trade for a few years. In use,
it was thrown like the tomahawk and got results because it mattered not
which way it hit the target. One summer it was obsoleted by the
emergence of a new variant, the "June cleaver."

"[e-mail]" wrote:
>
> ?  for the List,, I have an old clever, its 13 and a 1/2 inchs
> long,handle is 5 1/2 long,the blade is 2 inchs wide,1/8 to 5/16, and the
>  tapers back to 1/8 incks thick. wood scales.  On the blade it has
>       Nichols Bros.
>    Warranted Shear Steel
>     Greenfield Mass           Would anyone have any information or be
> able to date this cleaver?     thank you  Frank Novotny
>                                            [e-mail]

--

JW "LRay" Stephens
...
ICQ# 20564775   "mean people suck"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax
Date: 25 Jan 1999 08:21:37 -0600

I've used unspun flax (tow) for bird (rat/mouse) nest and have had good
luck with it.  Usually I use rope/twine scraps.  I think the most
important thing is to make sure it's dry.

Jim




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mike Rock" <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Jan 1999 11:34:49 -0600

I typed this in two weeks ago and it got lost.  Now that carpal tunnel is
gone will try again.

RE: PUNK
"The Man in the Ice" by Konrad Spindler
'Examination under the scanning microscope revealed a tangle of small fibre
parts which gave the impression of matted fibres, evidently of biogenic
origin.  It seems that the main portion of the black mass consists of the
middle layer, the 'trama', of a tree fungus, the 'true tinder' fungus (Fomes
fomentarius).  In a few places relatively fine particles were also
identified, which, with darkfield illumination under the stereomicroscope,
clearly exhibited crystalline structures of brassy to gold-coloured
brilliance.  The chemical nature of these crystals was established by X-ray
fluorescence
spectroscopy which showed sulphur and iron to be the main constituents.
This proved that the minute crystals were pyrites.
It seems reasonable to suppose that the Iceman carried a firelighter in his
belt pouch.  From the tinder-fungus growing as a parasite on trees a readily
ignitable tinder used to be prepared in the old days by cutting the soft
fungal mass into slices, hammering it vigorously, steeping it in nitre
(potassium or sodium nitrate) and letting it dry.  To make fire a lump of
pyrites was struck against flint; the shower of sparks was caught by the
tinder fungus and by careful blowing made to glow.  In historical times
pyrites was replaced by steel.  Although there was no pyrites in the belt
pouch, the striking traces in the form of minute pyrites crystals on the
tinder show that the Iceman occasionally carried pyrites with him in his
little pouch.
Studies of Neolithic firelighters from grave finds have shown that these may
consist of as many as six items in varying numbers and combinations.  A
complete set of firelighting equipment consists of:  a piece of pyrites; a
flint core; one or two flint blades; a bone implement; a shell; and the
tinder.  Firelighters or parts of them, have so far been found exclusively
in the graves of males- a factor which tallies with the Hauslabojch find.
Moreover, each firelighter surely had a  container, a bag, a pouch, or a
case.  In graves, however, these containers did not survive, presumably
because they were made of organic material, such as fur, leather, tree bark,
bast or textile, and so decayed in mineral soils.  The belt pouch of the
Iceman is the only known prehistoric example of a firelighter container. The
fact that the firelighting utensils were originally kept in a bag or similar
case can be deduced from the fact that in grave finds the items are
invariably lying very close and tidily together.  Not infrequently their
containers also held other implements, tools or replacement materials which
had nothing to do with firelighting.Experimental archeology has made
remarkable strides in the reconstruction and assessment of the probable use
of prehistoric firelighters.  The Kiel prehistorian Norbet Nieszery began
with a six-part firelighting kit, not counting the case.  Although a variety
of natural substances can be used as tinder, the best is still the true
tinder fungus, although only the fruiting part (trama) between its outer
crust and lower tubular layer is suitable.  This must therefore be cut out
of the fungus, which usually grows on diseases or dead beech, or more
rarely, BIRCH. Hence Neolithic firelighting kits include implements with
cutting edges, such as flint blades or tools.  The well dried tinder
material is then ground until it acquires a fibrous, cotton wool like
consistency.  The resulting enlargement of its surface greatly enhances its
glowing capacity.  To protect it from damp it is advisable to collect the
tinder in a little dry bowl - which is evidently  what the mollusc shells
were for.;;;;;;;;;;;;

As soon as a spark has caught in the tinder the glow can be magnified by
careful blowing.  With other easily glowing or flammable materials- Nieszery
recommends washed and dried reed-mace wool, hammered willow bast, mosses,
down feathers, thistle-down, bullrush or juniper pith, as well as hay and
small twigs- it is possible, with an appropriate supply of oxygen, to make
the glowing materials flare up.  The material, now blazing like a torch, is
finally brought to the prepared spot.
This certainly reliable but rather cumbersome prehistoric procedure for
making fire explains why the Iceman had an embercarrier with him.  His
firelighter represented an additional safety measure in case his embers were
extinguished.'

Now, on page 115 we come on this interesting tidbit. ' The two objects from
the Hauslabojch had been cut from the fruiting body of the birch fungus.
This result came as a surprise to us, as we had assumed it to be tinder.
The Birch fungus, in fact , is most unsuitable for this purpose as its
tissue is not highly flammable.  The solution to this riddle had to be
sought elsewhere.'  'note that these two objects were strung, like beads, on
a cord'  These were carried on his left wrist'       ( Not a really handy
spot for a firelighter.  -Mike)

It is well known that the birch fungus contains, among other things, an
antibiotic substance, polyporic acid C.  this is highly active against some
types of mycobacterium, including the tuberculosis agent.  As long ago as
the first century AD the Greek physician Dioscurides recommended tree fungi
as an astonishingly effective medication."

My wrists hurt.

This book has quite good photos of the Iceman's goodies.  My favorites are
the slipper/socks and the knife sheath.  His cloak is interesting as is the
ax.  Being a metallurgical engineer, that ax has special significance to me.
Kinda screwed up our timeline a bit.

Hope I didn't bore anyone.  73




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Janowiak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: First Flint and Steel Fire
Date: 25 Jan 1999 12:49:57 -0600

I use a flint and steel to start my barbeque.  This always keeps me in
practice.  Also learned that the right charcloth is critical.  Not sure it
that was brought up on this thread - I'm a newbie.

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of sean
Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 12:07 AM


At the Alafia we just got home from, I FINALLY learned to make fire with
flint adn steel and char cloth... IT WAS GREAT!!!  I found I can make a
"birdsnest" from old rope bits and peices I had laying around...  Use it as
you would tow and go from there...

Addison Miller








-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Janowiak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Plains Pistol - Authenticity Question
Date: 25 Jan 1999 12:56:45 -0600

I have a Lyman Plains Pistol.  I am curious how "correct" the forend cap on
it is.  It just has a flat end cap that covers the ramrod entry, like the
T/C Hawken endcap.  I the only guns I've seen this type of end cap on is T/C
and its look-a-likes.  I was thinking of changing it to the better looking
endcap and thimble set up that the Great Plains Rifle has.  Does anyone know
if this type of endcap has any historical value?




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Janowiak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Need advice on flintlocks
Date: 25 Jan 1999 13:01:11 -0600

I think I'm familiar enough with muzzleloading to make the "upgrade" to a
flintlock.  I've seen the Kentuckian in Dixie Gun Works for under $300.
It's made by Armi-Sport, does anyone have any thoughts on this particular
gun or maker.  If that's not a worhtwhile choice I'm looking at the Dixie
"Cub".   The Cub is made by Pedersoli which I've heard good things about but
also heard that they're priced more than they're worth.  Any comments on
Pedersoli would be appreciated.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Janowiak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: RE: Tinder
Date: 25 Jan 1999 13:13:25 -0600

I still use charcloth (not sure how "correct" it is) to catch the spark.
But for tinder, if I can't find anything naturally occuring, I carry a few
small pieces of dry charcoal from the last campfire.  Sandwich the charcloth
between the pieces of charCOAL and blow.  The glow will transfer to the
charcoal and can generate enough heat to produce a flame, given enough
oxygen.

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Duncan Macready
Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 1:22 AM



>
>
>Eldon L Ayers wrote:
>
>> "I have tried unspun flax a number of times when starting fires.  It is
>> probably one of the poorest bird's nest materials I have used"

I use dried sphagnum moss as a tinder .Its authentic and I can buy it by
the bag from the garden supplies store. It burns realy well when dried out,
It was also used as a daiper liner.
YMOS
Cutfinger






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: MtMan-List: Seeking Advice On Rifle Builder
Date: 25 Jan 1999 12:46:52 -0700 (MST)



I am hoping to get a period correct Flintlock Rifle built, and have seen the wor
ks of only a few maker as I am not fortunate to be an East Coast person where the
ir appears to be many more gun makes fairs, than out west we we are residing.

I have catalog's from JP. GunStock of Las Vegas, TVM, and have visited the Web-si
tes of both Jackie Brown, G.L. Jones, Al edge, and Jim Chambers.

I have even consider getting a CompletedRifle Kit in the "White" and doing some o
f the finishing myself.

I am hoping to get something like A Pennsylvania School or Southern Mountain Rifl
e Style in a Flintlock.  Hope someone might see this message, and point me in oth
er direction unless I have exhausted my options.

Thanks,

B



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Janowiak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Seeking Advice On Rifle Builder
Date: 25 Jan 1999 14:00:57 -0600

What's wrong with the rifle builders you've checked out so far?

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of BRUCE S. DE LIS
Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 1:47 PM




I am hoping to get a period correct Flintlock Rifle built, and have seen the
wor
ks of only a few maker as I am not fortunate to be an East Coast person
where the
ir appears to be many more gun makes fairs, than out west we we are
residing.

I have catalog's from JP. GunStock of Las Vegas, TVM, and have visited the
Web-si
tes of both Jackie Brown, G.L. Jones, Al edge, and Jim Chambers.

I have even consider getting a CompletedRifle Kit in the "White" and doing
some o
f the finishing myself.

I am hoping to get something like A Pennsylvania School or Southern Mountain
Rifl
e Style in a Flintlock.  Hope someone might see this message, and point me
in oth
er direction unless I have exhausted my options.

Thanks,

B





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: MtMan-List: fungus
Date: 25 Jan 1999 13:27:55 -0700

Over the past few weeks, folks have mentioned using a tree fungus. I would
like to have some and would buy or trade for some.
thanks
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: tinder
Date: 25 Jan 1999 16:18:50 -0600




>
>
> >Another way to use your flintlock for fire starting is to put 10 grains or
> >so of powder down the empty barrel, then ram down a good sized piece of
> >char cloth. Fire the gun straight up, and a piece of glowing char will come
> >floating down. Works, but I see no reason to do it, since putting the char
> >into the pan works so well.
>

Don't waste your char by putting it into the barrel, I use this same method with a
piece of cotton, or linen fabric placed in the bore so that the edges of the fabric
are in contact with the powder, cotton works best.  Works as well as char, and the
fabric can still be slightly damp and it will still work.  Never thought about using
this method to dry and light damp char at the same time...Until now, that is. ;-)

It might work better to put a few grains of powder into the pan on top of the char
to dry/light char too damp to catch a spark with flint and steel.

BTW, I have had good luck lighting dead grass that has been water soaked by shaking
off the excess moisture, placing a loose birds nest on a piece of leather, and sprinkling
powder over the nest. Some powder will filter down onto the leather, that's good.
Strike the flint in a sweeping motion that will get your hands out of the way when the
powder flares, and the dead, now dry grass will burst into flame.

Take care to keep all of your body parts back away from the flash of powder, or
you might earn the moniker "Fire face".   ;-)

Your Servant
J.D.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax
Date: 25 Jan 1999 16:02:18 -0700

Cheating the others in a fire building contest that stated "natural tinder".
_________________
-----Original Message-----


>
>
>Barry Conner wrote:
>
>>  Low and
>> behold it had a faint smell of a cleaner on it, turned out he was using
>> "jute" for this demo and for his super fast flint & steel demo. Wonder
what
>> plant he got refined jute off of ?
>>
>> Buck,
>
>Very interesting observation. Never heard of such a thing before. Was he
trying
>to sell his method? Or just showing off? I remain.....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jerry Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: First Flint and Steel Fire
Date: 25 Jan 1999 18:26:13 -0600

Steve Janowiak wrote:

> I use a flint and steel to start my barbeque.  This always keeps me in
>
> practice.  Also learned that the right charcloth is critical.  Not
> sure it
> that was brought up on this thread - I'm a newbie.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of sean
> Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 12:07 AM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: First Flint and Steel Fire
>
> At the Alafia we just got home from, I FINALLY learned to make fire
> with
> flint adn steel and char cloth... IT WAS GREAT!!!  I found I can make
> a
> "birdsnest" from old rope bits and peices I had laying around...  Use
> it as
> you would tow and go from there...
>
> Addison Miller

   The best Char I have ever found was 100% cotton flannel that I found
when buying gun cleaning patches. The best tinder that I have found is
jute. It comes apart and makes a good birdsnest and catches quicker than
anything else I have found.

Jerry Williams




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "The Windhams" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need advice on flintlocks
Date: 25 Jan 1999 17:37:23 -0800

Steve,
Save the money,  buythe parts from track of the wolf and build your own !
or find some one to build it for you, you'll be much happier. and your not
a marksmen until you do it with a flinter......I know that will get it
going !

Rick windham
http://www.ptw.com/~lattanze/home/blackhawk.html
----------
> From: Steve Janowiak <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: MtMan-List: Need advice on flintlocks
> Date: Monday, January 25, 1999 11:01 AM
>
> I think I'm familiar enough with muzzleloading to make the "upgrade" to a
> flintlock.  I've seen the Kentuckian in Dixie Gun Works for under $300.
> It's made by Armi-Sport, does anyone have any thoughts on this particular
> gun or maker.  If that's not a worhtwhile choice I'm looking at the Dixie
> "Cub".   The Cub is made by Pedersoli which I've heard good things about
but
> also heard that they're priced more than they're worth.  Any comments on
> Pedersoli would be appreciated.
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john c. funk,jr" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:56:11 -0800
Date: 25 Jan 1999 18:52:39 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE488B.FE25D9A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Mike,

Great treatise in "primitive" fire making.  Thanks for your efforts.  =
Some good food for thought and experimentation.

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE488B.FE25D9A0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Mike,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Great treatise in =
"primitive" fire=20
making.  Thanks for your efforts.  Some good food for thought =
and=20
experimentation.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE488B.FE25D9A0--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax
Date: 25 Jan 1999 18:07:14 -0800



Barry Conner wrote:

> Cheating the others in a fire building contest that stated "natural tinder".

Barry,

A sad commentary on our times. Really sad. I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Seeking Advice On Rifle Builder
Date: 25 Jan 1999 22:00:33 EST

I have handled guns by TVM, J.P Gunstocks, and G.L. Jones.  I think you get
what you pay for in each one.  TVM and J.P. Gunstocks can be had for $500 -
$700.  The wood to metal fit isn't the greatest, but I hear they are good
shooters.  Jack Garner at TVM is a great guy.  G.L. Jones can be had for $800+
depending on options and his fit and finish are great.  I don't know about the
shootability, but he is the maker I am seriously considering at the moment.
Had a good talk with him the other day, he is a nice fellow.

Grant aka Burned Belly



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sidney Porter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need advice on flintlocks
Date: 25 Jan 1999 21:20:01 -0800

Amen Rick,

If you can hit something with a flintlock, you can durn sure shoot.

Sidney


Steve,

Save the money,  buy the parts from Track of the Wolf and build your own !
Or find some one to build it for you.  You'll be much happier. You're not a
marksman until you do it with a flinter......  I know that will get it going
!

>Rick windham
>http://www.ptw.com/~lattanze/home/blackhawk.html

I think I'm familiar enough with muzzleloading to make the "upgrade" to a
flintlock.  I've seen the Kentuckian in Dixie Gun Works for under  $300.
It's made by Armi-Sport, does anyone have any thoughts on this particular
gun or maker.  If that's not a worhtwhile choice I'm  looking at the Dixie
"Cub".   The Cub is made by Pedersoli which I've heard good things about but
also heard that they're priced more than they're worth.  Any comments on
Pedersoli would be appreciated.





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Hello the list
Date: 25 Jan 1999 22:06:12 EST

After an absence quite a bit longer than I anticipated, things have finally
settled down enough for me to resubscribe.

About six months ago I was on the list, and was asking questions about gear
and weapons of the Indian Scouts up to and during the Revolutionary War. I
received some good information, but unfortunately while I was deployed my C:
drive was corrupted and by boys were kind enough to reformat my drive and
reinstall windows.

I would be most grateful for any information you could resend me on it,
especially regarding Western Virginia (now West Virginia). I would also
appreciate any information regarding the Longhunter school I had heard was
being held here in the East.

Any help, on or off list, would be deeply appreciated.

Sincerely,
Jim



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax
Date: 25 Jan 1999 21:51:10 -0600

This sorry practice has gotten so bad that when I run a fire starting =
contest I supply char and a variety of tinder.  Contestants are only =
allowed to use their own fint and steel...or lens, etc.  Ticks some of =
'em off something fierce.
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----


>
>
>Barry Conner wrote:
>
>> Cheating the others in a fire building contest that stated "natural =
tinder".
>
>Barry,
>
>A sad commentary on our times. Really sad. I remain......
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>>
>
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello the list
Date: 25 Jan 1999 22:37:01 EST

In a message dated 99-01-25 22:24:15 EST, you write:

> About six months ago I was on the list, and was asking questions about gear
>  and weapons of the Indian Scouts up to and during the Revolutionary War. I
>  received some good information
>  SNIP
>  I would be most grateful for any information you could resend me on it,
>  especially regarding Western Virginia (now West Virginia). I would also
>  appreciate any information regarding the Longhunter school I had heard was
>  being held here in the East.

Jim,
I think it would serve you well to join the Rev War list, since they are in
your particular time period.  The questions you are asking are almost ancient
history to the Mountain Men.  Perhaps someone on the list could give you
instructions on how to subscribe there.  They are more attuned to your
specific needs.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "buffbob" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Seeking Advice On Rifle Builder
Date: 25 Jan 1999 20:32:37 -0700

Bruce - the folks you mention cover a wide range from $500 to $5,000 and up
rifles.  Some focus on building pretty good rifles with off the shelf parts
and precarved, pre-inlet stocks to save us $$.  Some build a lock correct to
a time and place (worth $500 or more for just the lock), build or cast all
the mounts, and stock from a blank.  All are capable of both, but go
different ways in order to feed their family, and get some nice pieces in
our hands.  Some still do both.  Some will build a rifle that is so accurate
to the architecture, details and techniques of a particular maker or time
period and place that the more you learn over time, the more you'll
appreciate what they already knew.

Anyone who does a standard style or kit has to design a "common denominator"
rifle so they can sell enough to get their time and $$ invested in tooling
and setup back.   And some of these are very well designed, not a knock.
You can finish them differently, but after awhile you can tell what set of
parts they started with.  You can modify parts to be closer to the old ones,
and can vary the finishes.

So you need to narrow the field a bit - by your use of the rifle, your
budget, how much you are buying the rifle vs. how much you are buying the
knowledge of the riflemaker.  Some of these guys have a 20 - 40 year head
start, representing a lot of their time and money in learning what the old
stockers built, what works, etc.  Some customers are willing to pay for a
fine custom rifle for the fun of talking to the gunsmith for a year, as
their dream project comes together.

Didn't mean to get carried away.  Comparing some of the folks you mentioned,
and some others we could add, is comparing apples to oranges.  All will be
helpful, if you can narrow the field a bit.  There are fine used rifles out
there, if you look around.  I was talking to a fine builder the other day
about whether he would advertise on the Internet.  No, he said.  His
customers were buying his knowledge of the old guns, his experience,
enthusiasm and advice, and enjoyed the relationship in determining what sort
of rifle or smoothbore he would build, and in following the work.  He was
thinking the net is better suited to buying a commodity, without the
personal contact.  Interesting . . .

Good luck in your search.  Check out ads in Muzzleloader and Muzzle Blasts
magazines, On the Trail, etc - these ads will cover most of the folks who
are promoting their work nationally.  Can send me a note separate from list
if you wish, too.  I'm in Colorado.  Bob.

-----Original Message-----


>
>
>I am hoping to get a period correct Flintlock Rifle built, and have seen
the wor
>ks of only a few maker as I am not fortunate to be an East Coast person
where the
>ir appears to be many more gun makes fairs, than out west we we are
residing.
>
>I have catalog's from JP. GunStock of Las Vegas, TVM, and have visited the
Web-si
>tes of both Jackie Brown, G.L. Jones, Al edge, and Jim Chambers.
>
>I have even consider getting a CompletedRifle Kit in the "White" and doing
some o
>f the finishing myself.
>
>I am hoping to get something like A Pennsylvania School or Southern
Mountain Rifl
>e Style in a Flintlock.  Hope someone might see this message, and point me
in oth
>er direction unless I have exhausted my options.
>
>Thanks,
>
>B
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Mike Haught)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello the list
Date: 26 Jan 1999 04:25:28 GMT

On Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:37:01 EST, you wrote:

>In a message dated 99-01-25 22:24:15 EST, you write:
>
>> About six months ago I was on the list, and was asking questions about=
 gear
>>  and weapons of the Indian Scouts up to and during the Revolutionary =
War. I
>>  received some good information
>>  SNIP
>>  I would be most grateful for any information you could resend me on =
it,
>>  especially regarding Western Virginia (now West Virginia). I would =
also
>>  appreciate any information regarding the Longhunter school I had =
heard was
>>  being held here in the East.
>
>Jim,
>I think it would serve you well to join the Rev War list, since they are=
 in
>your particular time period.  The questions you are asking are almost =
ancient
>history to the Mountain Men.  Perhaps someone on the list could give you
>instructions on how to subscribe there.  They are more attuned to your
>specific needs.
>

I would be interested in info on subscribing to the Rev War list also.

    -mwh



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need advice on flintlocks
Date: 26 Jan 1999 00:45:25 -0500

Steve Janowiak wrote:
>
> I think I'm familiar enough with muzzleloading to make the "upgrade" to a
> flintlock.  I've seen the Kentuckian in Dixie Gun Works for under $300.
> It's made by Armi-Sport, does anyone have any thoughts on this particular
> gun or maker.  If that's not a worhtwhile choice I'm looking at the Dixie
> "Cub".   The Cub is made by Pedersoli which I've heard good things about but
> also heard that they're priced more than they're worth.  Any comments on
> Pedersoli would be appreciated.

It's Armsport, and they're one of, if not the cheapest, Italian
makers.  Between the two, Ped. is better, however, you're MUCH better
off to save your money till you have enough to get a GOOD rifle from
Jackie Brown, Jim Chambers, or someone else who builds top-shelf
QUALITY rifles.

Fred

--
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Seeking Advice On Rifle Builder
Date: 26 Jan 1999 00:47:49 -0500

"BRUCE S. DE LIS" wrote:
>
> I am hoping to get a period correct Flintlock Rifle built, and have seen the wor
> ks of only a few maker as I am not fortunate to be an East Coast person where the
> ir appears to be many more gun makes fairs, than out west we we are residing.
>
> I have catalog's from JP. GunStock of Las Vegas, TVM, and have visited the Web-si
> tes of both Jackie Brown, G.L. Jones, Al edge, and Jim Chambers.
>
> I have even consider getting a CompletedRifle Kit in the "White" and doing some o
> f the finishing myself.
>
> I am hoping to get something like A Pennsylvania School or Southern Mountain Rifl
> e Style in a Flintlock.  Hope someone might see this message, and point me in oth
> er direction unless I have exhausted my options.

You listed 2 of the BEST.....Jackie Brown and Jim Chambers.  You CAN'T
go wrong with either one.

Fred

--
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: First Flint and Steel Fire
Date: 26 Jan 1999 07:06:19 -0600

I have a smoking friend who resolved to only light up using flint and steel.
(The period type, not the Bic type).  The urgencies of his nicotene
addiction made him unsurpassed in producing a light.  He used a steel with
one of those brass tubes with a charred end of a cotton rope.  Used the
tobacco in the cigarette for the 'mini birds nest'  He was almost as fast as
a Bic.

Iron Burner


-----Original Message-----

>I use a flint and steel to start my barbeque.  This always keeps me in
>practice.





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Janowiak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Need advice on flintlocks
Date: 26 Jan 1999 07:35:36 -0600

Can you get good kits between 250 and 350 in the "Track"?

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of The Windhams
Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 7:37 PM


Steve,
Save the money,  buythe parts from track of the wolf and build your own !
or find some one to build it for you, you'll be much happier. and your not
a marksmen until you do it with a flinter......I know that will get it
going !

Rick windham
http://www.ptw.com/~lattanze/home/blackhawk.html
----------
> From: Steve Janowiak <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: MtMan-List: Need advice on flintlocks
> Date: Monday, January 25, 1999 11:01 AM
>
> I think I'm familiar enough with muzzleloading to make the "upgrade" to a
> flintlock.  I've seen the Kentuckian in Dixie Gun Works for under $300.
> It's made by Armi-Sport, does anyone have any thoughts on this particular
> gun or maker.  If that's not a worhtwhile choice I'm looking at the Dixie
> "Cub".   The Cub is made by Pedersoli which I've heard good things about
but
> also heard that they're priced more than they're worth.  Any comments on
> Pedersoli would be appreciated.
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Tinder
Date: 26 Jan 1999 09:03:56 EST

In a message dated 99-01-24 08:14:31 EST, you write:

<< I  was just reading a book where a person used a small piece
 of " unspun flax " set in the pan of his flintlock with some priming
 powder and the touch hole plugged to start his fire.
 Got me to wondering if any of you fellas' have used your rifles
 to start a fire or have heard of "flax" being used as tinder.

 From the northwoods,

 Tony Clark
  >>

I have done this many time, especially on woods walks where some smarty makes
the point dependent on starting a fire without your fire starting kit.  Tow
(as in tow head) is the left overs from the flax processing and makes a great
tinder.  It was carried in the F&I and Rev War to use with a 'worm' to clean
your musket.

I have also just used the flint and frizzen to spark my char cloth works real
well in a pinch.

Your humble servant

C.T. Oakes



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fungus
Date: 26 Jan 1999 09:26:07 -0600

Have you gotten any takers on sending you tree fungus (I call them shelf
mushrooms), if not I could send you some.  Of course they'll be Packer
ones from Wisconsin trees!  B^)

Jim




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fungus
Date: 26 Jan 1999 09:30:28 -0600

Just thought I'd put out a word of caution for those who will be trying
to make char out of tree fungus/shelf mushrooms.  The first time I did
this I sliced the fungus into thin slices and then chared as I would
cloth.  I let the can cool and dumped the pieces onto our wooden picnic
table.  I started another batch, went inside (just for a minute) and
came out to find the top of the table smoldering!  Some of the pieces
had been going, burned up the first batch I'd made and made an
interesting heart shaped burn mark on the top of the table!  So spread
them out on the ground and watch them for a bit after they've cooled.

Jim




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fungus
Date: 26 Jan 1999 09:40:14 -0600

Yikes,  that offer was supposed to be sent to Joe Brandl.  Thought I'd
checked the "To" box.  I'm not sure what kind of response I would get
from the list.  I suppose if you pay postage, I could fill some orders
as it's easy enough to find around here, and they don't weigh much.

Jim




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Indian Scouts
Date: 26 Jan 1999 17:45:07 -0600

   >After an absence quite a bit longer than I anticipated, things have
   >finally settled down enough for me to resubscribe.
   >About six months ago I was on the list, and was asking questions
   >about gear and weapons of the Indian Scouts up to and during the
   >Revolutionary War. I received some good information, but
   >unfortunately while I was deployed my C: drive was corrupted and by
   >boys were kind enough to reformat my drive and reinstall windows.
   >I would be most grateful for any information you could resend me on
   >it, especially regarding Western Virginia (now West Virginia). I
   >would also appreciate any information regarding the Longhunter
   >school I had heard was being held here in the East.
 Well Jim,I think you are on the wrong list for this request. You should try
[e-mail]  I'm on both lists and this traffic is much more on
the revliste. You might also want to try
www.globalserve.net/lougheed/confederacy/index.html
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well

If a tin whistle is made out of tin,what is a fog horn made out of?

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: (no subject)
Date: 26 Jan 1999 19:53:15 EST

HI ALL,
         NEED A HELPING HAND SOME WERE I THINK IN THE A.M.M.WEB IS A SITE ON
BOATS. ALL THE WAY FROM KEELBOAT TO BULL BOAT.AS THE SITE OPENS UP YOU SEE A
FELLOW I THINK KNEE DEEP IN WATER PULLING ARE STANDING BEHIND HIS CANOE CAN
NOT RECALL.THE REST OF WHAT THE SITE IS ABOUT.HOPE YOU GUYS CAN HELP .HAVE TO
GET SOME INFOR. FOR A NEWLETTER FOR FORT OSAGE.
                                         THANK YOU ALL ARE A GREAT BUNCH
                                                               TRAPHAND
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Douglas  Hepner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Trapping
Date: 26 Jan 1999 19:29:19 -0600

    Does anyone have references to mountain men trapping anything other
than beaver? If so what? What kind of traps, stakes, sets, etc.?
    Do any of y'all trap coon, fox, etc.? I am wanting to do my trapping as
authentic as possible. What kind of stakes do y'all use? I have been using
huge steel stakes and they are not real convenient to pack. Any
suggestions? Thanks in advance to any help recieved.

Douglas




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapping
Date: 26 Jan 1999 19:30:32 -0700

Here's an example of what was being sold to fur buyers in 1856, not all
beavers.

Buck
_______________________________________
We always think of St.Louis as being the hub of the fur trade, but there
were other locations that did quite well, for example St. Paul, Minnesota
took its fair share of the business, listed below is a list seen in the
St.Paul Advertiser, a local newspaper.

Animals
 No. Skins
 Value

Rats
 64,292
 $11,572.56

Minks
 8,276
 18,621.00

Martens
 1,428
 3,570.00

Fishers
 1,045
 4,702.50

Red Fox
 876
 1,095.00

Cross Fox
 20
 100.00

Silver Fox
 8
 400.00

Kit Fox
 2,542
 1,271.00

Coons
 3,400
 2,550.00

Wolverines
 2,032
 3,048.00

Otter
 405
 1,417.50

Beaver, lb..
 586
 881.00

Bear
 610
 6,700.00

Lynx
 50
 125.00

Buffalo Robes
 7,500
 41,200.00

Total Value
 $
 95,750.56


Now would you believe this was a poor year according to the Advertiser in
1856, a large amount of these furs were traded for in merchandise, the fur
trade as we know it, was over, but trade guns, blanket's, cookware and
anything else was still moving across this country.

Think of the amount of furs gathered in the hay day of the fur trade 1820's
to 1840's, look for example at Ft. Union, a prime location and the amount of
money that John Jacob Astor made is unbelievable, even by today's standards.
___________________________________________

-----Original Message-----


>    Does anyone have references to mountain men trapping anything other
>than beaver? If so what? What kind of traps, stakes, sets, etc.?
>    Do any of y'all trap coon, fox, etc.? I am wanting to do my trapping as
>authentic as possible. What kind of stakes do y'all use? I have been using
>huge steel stakes and they are not real convenient to pack. Any
>suggestions? Thanks in advance to any help recieved.
>
>Douglas





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: First Flint and Steel Fire
Date: 26 Jan 1999 23:51:38 EST

nobody's mentioned it yet, so i'll throw in my $.02: in my humble opinion, the
best 'birdsnest' is bird's nest.  they are abundant, have been gathered and
formed for you, are usually dry enough to use immediately and flame easily.
hard to beat.     yhs      'Barney Fife'



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Janowiak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: fog horns
Date: 27 Jan 1999 08:02:33 -0600



If a tin whistle is made out of tin,what is a fog horn made out of?

Made from the horn of a fog!  (must be somethin' like a buffler)





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: other furs
Date: 27 Jan 1999 09:09:50 +0100

Yes, its tru that in the 19th century there was a
steady trade in numerous other furs than beaver.
While I don't have the cites before me as I write,
the AFC records (which cover not onoy the west,
but also most of the upper Mississippi Valley)
contain long list os skin return from their
various departments for each season.  On these
lists, even in the 1820-40 period, beaver pales at
least in terms of numbers to muskrat, racoon, fox,
wolf, otter, buffalo, shaved or parchment deerskin
and others.
The real question is who was bringing in these
skins.
Trapper journalists seldom mention trapping
anything other than beaver or the ocasional otter.
 The diaries of the HBC Snake River Brigade
leaders (John Work, for example, one of his has
been published as "Journal of J W" and should be
available thourgh interlibrary loan) for example,
usually detail exactly what the men trapped each
day and sometimes eve how many traps they had out.
 They were going almost exclusively for beaver and
sometimes they got otter, whether from the same or
different sets is unclear.
I suspect that many of the coon, muskrat and
deerskins came from Native trappers in the upper
Mississippi, western Great Lakes area.
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Flying Cloud <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Plains Pistol - Authenticity Question
Date: 27 Jan 1999 13:12:31 -0800

Steve Janowiak wrote:
>
> I have a Lyman Plains Pistol.  I am curious how "correct" the forend cap on
> it is.  It just has a flat end cap that covers the ramrod entry, like the
> T/C Hawken endcap.  I the only guns I've seen this type of end cap on is T/C
> and its look-a-likes.  I was thinking of changing it to the better looking
> endcap and thimble set up that the Great Plains Rifle has.  Does anyone know
> if this type of endcap has any historical value?


The plains pistol is a close copy of the 1838 navy I have had 1838 navys
in the past that had been changed to cap from flint
--
Jim Ellison,  http://www.flyingcloudtrading.com



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Janowiak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Plains Pistol - Authenticity Question
Date: 27 Jan 1999 15:19:40 -0600

"Close copy"?  Even right down to the forend cap?

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Flying Cloud
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 3:13 PM


Steve Janowiak wrote:
>
> I have a Lyman Plains Pistol.  I am curious how "correct" the forend cap
on
> it is.  It just has a flat end cap that covers the ramrod entry, like the
> T/C Hawken endcap.  I the only guns I've seen this type of end cap on is
T/C
> and its look-a-likes.  I was thinking of changing it to the better looking
> endcap and thimble set up that the Great Plains Rifle has.  Does anyone
know
> if this type of endcap has any historical value?


The plains pistol is a close copy of the 1838 navy I have had 1838 navys
in the past that had been changed to cap from flint
--
Jim Ellison,  http://www.flyingcloudtrading.com





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fungus
Date: 27 Jan 1999 19:11:27 -0700

No Jim, I haven't, I would pay you for them and shipping costs or trade
something
Thanks
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: JW Stephens <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man and  Grizzly
Date: 27 Jan 1999 18:40:58 -0800

This book that Tony Clark recommends is out of print, but I suspect that
some on the list have read it and would have it on their trade blanket.
I am interested in reading a copy and if you would like to trade your
copy for some frogskins, please contact me at:  [e-mail]

Also, the same author has written "Rocky Mountain Rendezvous : A History
of the Fur Trade Rendezvous, 1825-1840." This book is in print, and I
wonder if any listee has read it and could provide a "buy"
recommendation.

> northwoods wrote:
>
> Just read a book that some of you might find interesting. It's
> entitled
> "Mountain Man and Grizzly".
>
> Author: Fred R. Gowans
>
> Published: Mountain Grizzly Publications Orem, Utah  1986
>
> From the northwoods
>
> Tony Clark
--

JW "LRay" Stephens
...
ICQ# 20564775   "mean people suck"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Carpenters <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man and  Grizzly
Date: 27 Jan 1999 19:11:03 -0800




>
> Also, the same author has written "Rocky Mountain Rendezvous : A History
> of the Fur Trade Rendezvous, 1825-1840." This book is in print, and I
> wonder if any listee has read it and could provide a "buy"
> recommendation.
>
I have two editions of Rocky Mountain Rendezvous, by Gowans.  I have
followed the book to all sites possible (some are on private property),
except the '25 site.  Just ran out of time.  I recommend the book.

Which reminds me, I just received the flyer for the 1834 Ham's Fork
re-enactment, near Granger, WY.  It is on an original '34 camp site  I'm
having brain fade, but either it is the camp of the American Fur Company
or the Rocky Mountain Fur Company.  I'll remember tomorrow.  It is the
weekend of August 20, 21 and 22, 1999.  You can contact them at:

    1834 Ham's Fork River Rendezvous
    P.O. Box 134
    Granger, WY  82934-0134

    Contact person - Sally Devore
            307-875-5406

They are now accepting registrations for all participants.  I'll be
there for the third time, at the 3rd annual (Fourth if you count 1834,
of course. Unfortunately, I missed this one).

Carp



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: JW Stephens <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Bee Trees
Date: 27 Jan 1999 20:09:45 -0800

A while ago it was mentioned that bee trees were not endemic in the
West, the honeybee being a European import. I ran into this interesting
note in "Westering Man" by Bil Gilbert: "(The honeybee, imported from
Europe, pioneered just ahead of the white settlements and proliferated
in the new country, where it had no native competitors for its
ecological niche. The extent of the bee range was usually about 100
miles westward of the line of settlement, and so regular was this
pattern that the Indians, who much admired it, came to call the bee "the
white man's fly.")."

This book, BTW, ostensibly about Captain Joseph Walker, provides a meaty
context for his life and the events that formed him into the mountaineer
and leader that he became. Waugh!
--

JW "LRay" Stephens
...
ICQ# 20564775   "mean people suck"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pre-1840 toilet tissue
Date: 28 Jan 1999 00:34:44 -0600

Douglas,

Sorry for the delay in response, I've been real busy.

I wrote an article for the Tomahawk and LongRifle a few years back=
 documenting
the term Bum Fodder being in use in the late 18th and early 19th centuries.
 It
was defined as soft paper for the necessary house.  A concurrent though no
longer used term was torchecul.

This was taken from the 1811 Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue first
published in
1795.  Though the unrepentant royalists and tory sympathizers who enforced=
 the
Victorian concepts deleting much of interest from history have left us few
other references: as there was slang for the term it is pretty certain=
 wiping
paper was known.  Doubtful on the frontier but a better choice than stinging
nettle.

John...


At 07:21 PM 1/20/99 -0600, you wrote:
>=A0=A0=A0 Ok, I'm just going to go ahead and ask! Does anyone have any=
 references
>to what was used as toilet tissue (for lack of a better word) when in the
>woods or mountains pre-1840? Did they pack paper, use leaves, or just stop
>at streams a lot?
>
>Douglas
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fog horns
Date: 28 Jan 1999 02:49:56 -0600

   >If a tin whistle is made out of tin,what is a fog horn made out of?
   >Made from the horn of a fog!  (must be somethin' like a buffler)
Hey I like your creativity! Thats the best reply I've gotten yet!
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well

Why do we sterilize needles for lethal injections?

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapping
Date: 28 Jan 1999 09:41:46 EST

I trap many types of animals and am on the board of directors of the state
trappers assn.  Also a life member in the National Trappers Assn.  For
question I suggest you contact me off the list at [e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john c. funk,jr" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pre-1840 toilet tissue
Date: 28 Jan 1999 07:18:29 -0800

John

By way of interest, the common slang term for the "butt" in England today is
still "bum."  My 1898 Funk & Wagnells still defines 'bum as: the buttocks'.
And, of course, fodder is feed.

Draw your own conclusions..................

John Funk


-----Original Message-----


Douglas,

Sorry for the delay in response, I've been real busy.

I wrote an article for the Tomahawk and LongRifle a few years back
documenting
the term Bum Fodder being in use in the late 18th and early 19th centuries.
It
was defined as soft paper for the necessary house.  A concurrent though no
longer used term was torchecul.

This was taken from the 1811 Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue first
published in
1795.  Though the unrepentant royalists and tory sympathizers who enforced
the
Victorian concepts deleting much of interest from history have left us few
other references: as there was slang for the term it is pretty certain
wiping
paper was known.  Doubtful on the frontier but a better choice than stinging
nettle.

John...


At 07:21 PM 1/20/99 -0600, you wrote:
> Ok, I'm just going to go ahead and ask! Does anyone have any references
>to what was used as toilet tissue (for lack of a better word) when in the
>woods or mountains pre-1840? Did they pack paper, use leaves, or just stop
>at streams a lot?
>
>Douglas
>
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: MtMan-List: Pennsylvania School Rifles??
Date: 28 Jan 1999 08:54:36 -0700 (MST)



I have been looking at two books over the last couple of days thanks to the effo
rts of the local librarian.  The Kentucky Rifle, By John G.W. Dillin, and Arms Ma
kers of Pennsylvania, by James B. Wisker.  Appears that most of what I will call
Authentic Pennsylvania School Rifles had large Buttplates, and Bulks Stocks.  Tha
n I first thought??

O.K. here my question in looking at Tracks, and several other Gun Maker Catalogs
they appear to be showing much Slender Buttplates, and Slender Stocks on their Pe
nnsylvania School Rifles.

Are my references wrong or am I looking at references that just show the early Pe
nnsylvania School Rifles, and is their a better reference books that shows the la
ter style of Pennsylvania.  If so what are the titles?

Or is what I am calling Slender, with Slender Buttplates Plates Pennsylvania real
ly Southern Mountain, Kentucky, or Tennessee School Rifles?

Any suggestions would be apprieciated.

Thanks,

B



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rick Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Pennsylvania School Rifles??
Date: 28 Jan 1999 15:42:27 +0000


------ =_NextPart_000_01BE4AD4.CFB1C9D0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The later in the period of Pennsylvania School development, the smaller =
and narrower the buttplate becomes.
The early Jeager being the fattest, the transitional, the Rev War, The =
Golden Age and then the late flint and early caplock.  For our time =
frame the Golden age and forward would be most appropriate.  While the =
Golden age is not as narrow and curved on the end as the late =
flint/early caplock, it is narrower than its predecessors and IMHO Track =
of the Wolf has kits for all eras stated above.


Good Luck

Rick
-----Original Message-----
Sent:    Thursday, January 28, 1999 3:55 PM



I have been looking at two books over the last couple of days thanks to =
the effo
rts of the local librarian.  The Kentucky Rifle, By John G.W. Dillin, =
and Arms Ma
kers of Pennsylvania, by James B. Wisker.  Appears that most of what I =
will call=20
Authentic Pennsylvania School Rifles had large Buttplates, and Bulks =
Stocks.  Tha
n I first thought??

O.K. here my question in looking at Tracks, and several other Gun Maker =
Catalogs=20
they appear to be showing much Slender Buttplates, and Slender Stocks on =
their Pe
nnsylvania School Rifles.

Are my references wrong or am I looking at references that just show the =
early Pe
nnsylvania School Rifles, and is their a better reference books that =
shows the la
ter style of Pennsylvania.  If so what are the titles?

Or is what I am calling Slender, with Slender Buttplates Plates =
Pennsylvania real
ly Southern Mountain, Kentucky, or Tennessee School Rifles?

Any suggestions would be apprieciated.

Thanks,

B



------ =_NextPart_000_01BE4AD4.CFB1C9D0
Content-Type: application/ms-tnef
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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------ =_NextPart_000_01BE4AD4.CFB1C9D0--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rick Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Frogskins?
Date: 28 Jan 1999 15:48:26 +0000


------ =_NextPart_000_01BE4AD5.A53388A0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

What does one do with frogskins???

Rick

This book that Tony Clark recommends is out of print, but I suspect that
some on the list have read it and would have it on their trade blanket.
I am interested in reading a copy and if you would like to trade your
copy for some frogskins, please contact me at:  [e-mail]


------ =_NextPart_000_01BE4AD5.A53388A0
Content-Type: application/ms-tnef
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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------ =_NextPart_000_01BE4AD5.A53388A0--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: RANDAL J BUBLITZ <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Frogskins?
Date: 28 Jan 1999 15:20:49 -0800

Many of us know that frogskins = dollar bills.  I heard a funny story
from some friends in missouri this summer.  It seems these friends were
going to Ft. Osage for a doins, there was a pilgrim along.  Said pilgrim
was wondering what the Ft. factor would trade for an item of interest.
Pilgrim was informed that factor wouldn't trade, he'd only take
'frogskins'; said pilgrim replied...'Oh great, where am I going to get
frogskins at this time of year...!'   this was related to me as a true
story...     Hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Frogskins?
Date: 28 Jan 1999 17:11:47 -0800

I've carried a small, squashed frogskin in my wallet for years, which I
picked up off the ranch road at Granny Martin's place, hoping for an
opportunity to employ it in one of those "frogskin trading" deals, but all
the traders around here simply use the term "money" instead. Rats.
YMOS
Pat Quilter

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 1999 3:21 PM


Many of us know that frogskins = dollar bills.  I heard a funny story
from some friends in missouri this summer.  It seems these friends were
going to Ft. Osage for a doins, there was a pilgrim along.  Said pilgrim
was wondering what the Ft. factor would trade for an item of interest.
Pilgrim was informed that factor wouldn't trade, he'd only take
'frogskins'; said pilgrim replied...'Oh great, where am I going to get
frogskins at this time of year...!'   this was related to me as a true
story...     Hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: tigrbo1 <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: School of the Longhunter
Date: 29 Jan 1999 00:49:46 -0800

Hi Jim,

    Here's the info you were looking for: "The School of the Longhunter"
It's March 26-27-28 at Prickett's Fort State Park, Fairmont, West Virginia
Call (800) CALL-WVA and ask for the Prickett's Fort operator, or [phone]
The fee is $35, which includes all you'll need, plus a dinner. Lots of good
speakers.

    This info was supplied by Carol Rose Parker of the French & Indain War list.
If doing a longhunter is of interest to you, you might check out the list. To
subscribe to the list, send a message to:
[e-mail]  with SUBSCRIBE HISTORY in the message body.

Best regards,

Terry Smith


[e-mail] wrote:

> (Snip) I would also appreciate any information regarding the Longhunter school
> I had heard was being held here in the East.
>
> Any help, on or off list, would be deeply appreciated.
>
> Sincerely,
> Jim








-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Don Neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Mtn Man School
Date: 29 Jan 1999 09:27:29 -0600

I heard that their was a school for Mtn Man , is this true and if there
is were is it. Donnie




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: bulk tri-corner hats
Date: 29 Jan 1999 08:29:24 -0600

I'm passing this on from a post on a scout newsgroup.  They are looking
to supply Cub Scouts with tri-corner hats and looking at purchasing
3,000 of them.

As our council's Cubworld currently has a pallisaded fort and tipis, I
would be interested to, so if anyone has an outlet, please let me know
and I'll pass it on.

Thanks,

Jim





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bulk tri-corner hats
Date: 29 Jan 1999 08:07:01 -0700 (MST)



Have you called?


C. D. Jarnagin Co @ 601-287-4777, Fax [phone]
May not be able to help you buy may know of someone

B

>
>I'm passing this on from a post on a scout newsgroup.  They are looking
>to supply Cub Scouts with tri-corner hats and looking at purchasing
>3,000 of them.
>
>As our council's Cubworld currently has a pallisaded fort and tipis, I
>would be interested to, so if anyone has an outlet, please let me know
>and I'll pass it on.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Jim
>
>
>
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtn Man School
Date: 29 Jan 1999 10:33:36 -0500

Head toward the setting sun, turn Left.....Or right, if ya doon mind
Blackfeets.....

Dennis

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


>I heard that their was a school for Mtn Man , is this true and if there
>is were is it. Donnie
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bulk tri-corner hats
Date: 29 Jan 1999 10:12:48 -0600

Contact:

Lance Grabowski 505-471-0011

He has a source.

John...


At 08:29 AM 1/29/99 -0600, you wrote:
>I'm passing this on from a post on a scout newsgroup.=A0 They are looking
>to supply Cub Scouts with tri-corner hats and looking at purchasing
>3,000 of them.
>
>As our council's Cubworld currently has a pallisaded fort and tipis, I
>would be interested to, so if anyone has an outlet, please let me know
>and I'll pass it on.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Jim
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lewis K Raper" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bulk tri-corner hats
Date: 29 Jan 1999 20:15:01 -0500

The K Company in Pelzer SC have been supplying boy scouts with cloths and
Indian stuff for years call Kay Koch @ [phone] or 1-800-977-2788.
They are open Tues.-Sat from 10 till 6 Eastern Time. Tell Them Possum Hunter
sent ya, They will do you right.
-----Original Message-----


>I'm passing this on from a post on a scout newsgroup.  They are looking
>to supply Cub Scouts with tri-corner hats and looking at purchasing
>3,000 of them.
>
>As our council's Cubworld currently has a pallisaded fort and tipis, I
>would be interested to, so if anyone has an outlet, please let me know
>and I'll pass it on.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Jim
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40
Date: 29 Jan 1999 21:42:16 EST

I'm headed from Los Angeles to Oklahoma in mid-March, and would like
recommendations from the list as to points of interest.  I already have Meteor
Crater (Williams, AZ), Santa Fe and Taos, NM and the JA Davis and Will Rogers
Museums (Claremore, OK).  Any additional info would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks for your time and tolerance.  'Barney Fife'



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: linda lawyer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40
Date: 29 Jan 1999 18:45:52 -0800 (PST)



We recommend Woolarock in Bartlesville, Oklahoma, just
south of the Kansas border and Lawton, Oklahoma has the
Museum of the Great Plains and Wichita National Wild Life Refuge.

Keith and Linda Lawyer
[e-mail] wrote:
>
> I'm headed from Los Angeles to Oklahoma in mid-March, and would like
> recommendations from the list as to points of interest.  I already
have Meteor
> Crater (Williams, AZ), Santa Fe and Taos, NM and the JA Davis and
Will Rogers
> Museums (Claremore, OK).  Any additional info would be greatly
appreciated.
> Thanks for your time and tolerance.  'Barney Fife'
>
>

==


Keith and Linda Lawyer
[e-mail]



_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: JW Stephens <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40
Date: 29 Jan 1999 18:54:44 -0800

How's bout Bent's fort ...

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> I'm headed from Los Angeles to Oklahoma in mid-March, and would like
> recommendations from the list as to points of interest.  I already have Meteor
> Crater (Williams, AZ), Santa Fe and Taos, NM and the JA Davis and Will Rogers
> Museums (Claremore, OK).  Any additional info would be greatly appreciated.
> Thanks for your time and tolerance.  'Barney Fife'

--

JW "LRay" Stephens



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40
Date: 29 Jan 1999 20:00:03 -0700 (MST)



When you hit New Mexico on I-40 at Mile Marker 37 on the left side of the
Road is a "Giant Truck Stop", food is resturant is excellant.

Also if your are going to Taos you will be going out of route, as you go
North on I-25, from I-40 in Albuquerque.  So hit Sante Fe as the town is
an artist Coloney.

B
>
>I'm headed from Los Angeles to Oklahoma in mid-March, and would like
>recommendations from the list as to points of interest.  I already have Meteor
>Crater (Williams, AZ), Santa Fe and Taos, NM and the JA Davis and Will Rogers
>Museums (Claremore, OK).  Any additional info would be greatly appreciated.
>Thanks for your time and tolerance.  'Barney Fife'
>
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: MtMan-List: Pins Verses Wedges??
Date: 29 Jan 1999 20:09:38 -0700 (MST)



I was thumbing through Track of the Wolf's Catalog, Number 14 this afternoon and
 started to notice some of their kits showed "Wedges" verses "Pins" to hold the b
arrel of a rifle to a stock.  I would expect to find this "Wedge System in Hawken
s", but also noticed that "Wedges" were used in their "North Carolina Tennessee M
ountain Rifle", and also their "Southern Mountain Rifle", Pages 142-145.

Are there Rifles with "Wedges" instead of Pins, Period Correct?

B



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "BuffBob" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Pins Verses Wedges??
Date: 29 Jan 1999 20:29:56 -0700

i can't say about "southern mtn rifles".  there are a few collectors who
know this field pretty well.  i think the few fullstock "SMR's"  i've seen
are usually pinned.  wedges were pretty common in all sorts of
"pennsylvania" rifles from 1780's or so on.  nice rifles like fully carved
Dickert with daisy patchbox, through the common plains or fur trade rifles.
i think most or all original Henry rifles i've seen have wedges, and their
contemporaries 1820 to 1850.  the less expensive rifles often have a simple
brass wedge with no head on either end.  it's a bit of extra work to install
wedges cleanly, so appreciate this if builder does it, probably worth some
extra $$.  bob.

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of BRUCE S. DE LIS
Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 8:10 PM







-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pins Verses Wedges??
Date: 29 Jan 1999 22:43:24 EST

FWIW, in mho, wedges make it one heck of a lot easier to get the barrel off
for cleaning, and minimize the risk of damage to the stock. Removal of pins
increases the risk of damage to the wood as well as enlarging the holes every
time they are pushed in or out.    given the choice, assuming both are
'correct' for your rifle, i'd say use wedges     yhs,  'Barney Fife'



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Douglas  Hepner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40
Date: 29 Jan 1999 21:46:48 -0600

    Might be a little late and a little out of the way, but there is a
pretty decent 'vous at Ft. Washita (just a little outside of Madill Ok.)
during March 29th - April 4th with early setup on March 27th. It is a Ok.
Historical Society historic site complete with reconstructed buildings,
barracks, etc.

Your most dis-obed.. oops! I mean obedient servent.
"Dull Hawk"

----------
> From: [e-mail]
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40
> Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 8:42 PM
>
> I'm headed from Los Angeles to Oklahoma in mid-March, and would like
> recommendations from the list as to points of interest.  I already have
Meteor
> Crater (Williams, AZ), Santa Fe and Taos, NM and the JA Davis and Will
Rogers
> Museums (Claremore, OK).  Any additional info would be greatly
appreciated.
> Thanks for your time and tolerance.  'Barney Fife'
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pins Verses Wedges??
Date: 29 Jan 1999 19:55:37 -0800



BRUCE S. DE LIS wrote:

> I was thumbing through Track of the Wolf's Catalog, Number 14 this afternoon and
>  started to notice some of their kits showed "Wedges" verses "Pins" to hold the b
> arrel of a rifle to a stock.  I would expect to find this "Wedge System in Hawken
> s", but also noticed that "Wedges" were used in their "North Carolina Tennessee M
> ountain Rifle", and also their "Southern Mountain Rifle", Pages 142-145.
>
> Are there Rifles with "Wedges" instead of Pins, Period Correct?

Bruce,

Yup. A friend brought over a percussion half stock original for me to look at this
afternoon (we will be asking for any info on it when we can decifer the ingraving)
that had a wedge rather than pins. So Hawkens were not the only guns to use wedges.
As to the rifles you saw in "Track", I'm confident that they came with pins and
wedges depending on the maker at the time. My Opinion, I remain.......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>
>
> B






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Douglas  Hepner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax
Date: 29 Jan 1999 22:10:31 -0600

    I always thought "jute" was a type of rope. Is it not appropriate? If
not I have been cheating for quite some time!

"Dull HawK"
----------
> From: Barry Conner <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax
> Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 9:03 PM
>
> Capt. Lahti' I have seen what these gentlemen are referring to about
> starting the flax or tow in a flintlock pan, after a demo I wondered over
> and picked up the "regular tow" as what this person called it. Low and
> behold it had a faint smell of a cleaner on it, turned out he was using
> "jute" for this demo and for his super fast flint & steel demo. Wonder
what
> plant he got refined jute off of ?
>
> Buck
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 7:47 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax
>
>
> >
> >
> >BRUCE S. DE LIS wrote:
> >
> >> Unspun Flax is mentioned:  "Unspun flax, used for swabbing bore"
> >>
> >> Can't see what it would not burn with a spark, from a Flintlock Pan.
> >>
> >> Bruce,
> >
> >Flax or tow is a great way to wipe out the bore. It is a bit of a myth
> >though, that you can get it to ignite by throwing a spark into it in
your
> >pan or otherwise without making it into char first. If you work at it
long
> >enough, it might work but it would be a luck thing at best. I've tried
to
> >use it as tinder and have never had that much success. As char, linen or
> >flax cloth will work ok if you don't let it get too fragile.
> >
> >There are a number of things that make good char, including punky wood
like
> >rotten birch and cottonwood. Yucca stalks and other pithy woody plants
make
> >usable char as do some types of bracken fungus. Experiment with what you
> >find in your area and when you go to other locals.
> >
> >I like burlap sacks or gunny sacks for tinder and cedar bark, inner
> >cottonwood bark and inner bark of sage along with dry grass's work too
to
> >take the heat from your char and turn it into flame. Experiment. Birch
bark
> >from most types makes a great flame catcher if pitch pine or fat wood is
> not
> >available and will burn even when damp. Pitch nodules off bruised trees
> will
> >help keep a flame going.
> >
> >As to starting your char in a flint lock with out first plugging the
touch
> >hole, I think Gen. Bob lives a charmed life and would like to touch him
> some
> >time to see if his good luck would rub off on me. I remain....
> >
> >YMOS
> >Capt. Lahti'
> >
> >
> >
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax
Date: 29 Jan 1999 20:47:39 -0800



Douglas Hepner wrote:

>     I always thought "jute" was a type of rope. Is it not appropriate? If
> not I have been cheating for quite some time!
>
> "Dull HawK"

Dull HawK,

What Barry said that got my attention was the part about the juste having a
faint smell of "cleaner" to it, implying that the jute the "gentleman" was
using had been treated with a fire accelerator. As far as using jute as tinder,
I personally see nothing wrong with it. It is a natural plant fiber though it
may be more refined than some flax or linen tow, linen tow comes to us very
course and also very fine as in further refined. Now if the rules for the
contest clearly called for the use of unrefined natural fibers, I would expect
not to be allowed to use a refined product either. Of course, lacing the tinder
with an accelerate is cheating, plain and simple. Let's see what Barry has to
say concerning what he was originally talking about. I remain........

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40
Date: 29 Jan 1999 23:54:17 EST

Gee, if you are veering off a bit towards Santa Fe, why not Taos, center of
the Southwest fur trade?  Smashing place....avoid overspending at the
Pueblo..and try not to laugh at the two-headed goat in the Governor Bent
Museum..



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pins Verses Wedges??
Date: 29 Jan 1999 23:54:39 EST

In a message dated 99-01-29 22:10:22 EST, you write:

<< I was thumbing through Track of the Wolf's Catalog, Number 14 this
afternoon and
  started to notice some of their kits showed "Wedges" verses "Pins" to hold
the b
 arrel of a rifle to a stock.  I would expect to find this "Wedge System in
Hawken
 s", but also noticed that "Wedges" were used in their "North Carolina
Tennessee M
 ountain Rifle", and also their "Southern Mountain Rifle", Pages 142-145.
  >>
Usualy wedges were used with a hook breach, & pins were used with a tang
breach.  The reason was the "removability" of the hook breach -- pull ram rod,
wedges, loosten lock bolt, pull cock to "safe" notch, & remove barrel.  With
the tang breech, it's a bit more complicated because you also have to remove
the tang screws & with some of the longer tangs, you have to be very careful
not to bent them.  The tang on one of my rifles is so long you can stick the
breech in a 3 lb coffee can for cleaning & the touch hole doesn't get wet.
Usualy, I use a flush tube on it & only remove the barrel about once or twice
a year for complete oiling & rust prevention.  A lot of the Pennsylvanias used
eustaceon plates with the pins to prevent wood damage, & when installed
properly, to my eye, it's a cleaner look than with the wedges.  These plates
can be any number of shapes, but they were usualy installed with headless
brads -- the holes were countersunk & the brads driven in & peaned over to
fill the countersink, then filed smooth & polished.  When using brass plates &
brads, the brads disappear.  I've even seen brass brads used with silver
plates & after the polishing, it's very dificult to see the brads even with
the color difference.  The plates are usualy inlayed so they're flush with the
wood leaving a totaly smooth surface.  If you're having the lock & other
furnature engraved, a bit of engraving on the eustaceans realy sets the rifle
off.  I'm not saying you CAN'T use wedges with a tang breech, or pins with a
hook breach, but it wasn't the normal way they built rifles back then.

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ron Chamberlain" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax
Date: 29 Jan 1999 22:13:51 -0700

Are jute rope and sisal rope the same thing?

Ron aka Lonewolf
----------
> From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax
> Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 9:47 PM
>
>
>
> Douglas Hepner wrote:
>
> >     I always thought "jute" was a type of rope. Is it not appropriate?
If
> > not I have been cheating for quite some time!
> >
> > "Dull HawK"
>
> Dull HawK,
>
> What Barry said that got my attention was the part about the juste having
a
> faint smell of "cleaner" to it, implying that the jute the "gentleman"
was
> using had been treated with a fire accelerator. As far as using jute as
tinder,
> I personally see nothing wrong with it. It is a natural plant fiber
though it
> may be more refined than some flax or linen tow, linen tow comes to us
very
> course and also very fine as in further refined. Now if the rules for the
> contest clearly called for the use of unrefined natural fibers, I would
expect
> not to be allowed to use a refined product either. Of course, lacing the
tinder
> with an accelerate is cheating, plain and simple. Let's see what Barry
has to
> say concerning what he was originally talking about. I remain........
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
> >
>
>
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax
Date: 29 Jan 1999 21:54:10 -0800

Ron,

No.

Ron Chamberlain wrote:

> Are jute rope and sisal rope the same thing?
>
> Ron aka Lonewolf
> --




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax
Date: 30 Jan 1999 08:56:52 -0700

Roger,

When I mentioned the faint smell of "cleaner" on the jute. Go to a craft
store that handles the hanging pot materials, the stuff the "flower
children" of the ' 60's used to weave for their hanging pots of funny
tobacco. If you smell it, you can very faintly smell the odor of a cleaning
agent, like kerosene. It not a natural odor like the unrefined jute or
grasses we know.

I think the few people using this had discovered that the refined jute in
the craft stores had a higher flash point because of the cleaning agent,
over non-refined material, and took advantage of the situtation. At the time
we were lax on the rules for local and state events, the next event we had
to stress "natural material for tinder - only" no refined or altered tinder
(ex. refined jute).

Buck
_____________________-
-----Original Message-----


>
>
>Douglas Hepner wrote:
>
>>     I always thought "jute" was a type of rope. Is it not appropriate? If
>> not I have been cheating for quite some time!
>>
>> "Dull HawK"
>
>Dull HawK,
>
>What Barry said that got my attention was the part about the juste having a
>faint smell of "cleaner" to it, implying that the jute the "gentleman" was
>using had been treated with a fire accelerator. As far as using jute as
tinder,
>I personally see nothing wrong with it. It is a natural plant fiber though
it
>may be more refined than some flax or linen tow, linen tow comes to us very
>course and also very fine as in further refined. Now if the rules for the
>contest clearly called for the use of unrefined natural fibers, I would
expect
>not to be allowed to use a refined product either. Of course, lacing the
tinder
>with an accelerate is cheating, plain and simple. Let's see what Barry has
to
>say concerning what he was originally talking about. I remain........
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>>
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40
Date: 30 Jan 1999 10:00:12 -0700

What part of Oklahoma are you headed to?  My old home state.  Don

DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants

RR1LA wrote:
>I'm headed from Los Angeles to Oklahoma in mid-March, and would like
>recommendations from the list as to points of interest.  I already have
Meteor
>Crater (Williams, AZ), Santa Fe and Taos, NM and the JA Davis and Will
Rogers
>Museums (Claremore, OK).  Any additional info would be greatly
appreciated.
>Thanks for your time and tolerance.  'Barney Fife'
>
>
>
>RFC822 header
>-----------------------------------
>
>Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with
ESMTP
>  (SMTPD32-4.03) id A2513F00A6; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:45:37 MDT
>Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1)
>    id 106QOQ-00003e-00
>    for [e-mail]; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:44:18 -0700
>Received: from [198.81.17.73] (helo=imo29.mx.aol.com)
>    by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1)
>    id 106QON-00002Y-00
>    for [e-mail]; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:44:16 -0700
>Received: from [e-mail]
>    by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id UIEZa01221
>     for <[e-mail]>; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 21:42:16 +1900
(EST)
>From: [e-mail]
>Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 21:42:16 EST
>To: [e-mail]
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Subject: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40
>Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
>X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4
>Sender: [e-mail]
>Precedence: bulk
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>X-UIDL: 915555533
>Status: U
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: JUTE
Date: 31 Jan 1999 02:35:21 -0600

Roger,
  Thanks for the info on jute. I've been using the stuff for years, and did
not know it had been treated with a cleaning agent. All I knew was it would
burn like crazy. I will no longer use it. Yes I to have seen folks use
tinder that had to have been enhanced with something. There are lots of
ways to accomplish, but I won't get into  them here. [ no need in
encouraging such practices]  Even jute won't literally explode into flames
every single time. When I put on a fire starting contest, I always
specified using natural tinder such as cedar bark, grass, etc. When i can
get them dry enough, I like to provide pine needles for the contestants. I
think this gives all of us a better opportunity to learn to use what our
forefathers used which was whatever was at hand.
  A good tip on char, is to char the strings you pull off the fringe of a
new frock or the ones you pull off the edge of ticking patch material. They
work reall well and it goes back to not wasting anything. You will find it
catches a spark almost immediately and when you blow on it , it turns into
a solid glowing ember. Try it you'll like it.
Pendleton



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "BuffBob" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Pins Verses Wedges??
Date: 30 Jan 1999 15:55:49 -0700

oops - i meant to use the term "keys" or "barrel keys", rather than wedges -
the old time name for this very common technique.  you don't want to "wedge"
anything, or move the world!  bob.

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of BuffBob
Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 8:30 PM





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sidney Porter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40
Date: 30 Jan 1999 23:08:10 -0800

I've been to Ft. Washita the last 7 years.  I'ts one of my favorite
rendezvous.  It is normally the week after the Southwestern and most of the
traders stay in the area for it.  The site is beautiful and the park staff
is friendly.  There are a few rules that you might not have elsewhere, since
it is a state park, but that's understandable.  The only downside is that
it's a popular school/scout field trip destination and you have to make sure
your things are secured before leaving camp.  I have never had any trouble
from "pilgrims" and have camped right behind traders' row the last three
years.  I simply tied the tent shut with the valuables inside.

I havce always enjoyed it more than most doins'.  I highly recommend Ft.
Washita.

Humbly submitted,
Sidney Porter


-----Original Message-----


>    Might be a little late and a little out of the way, but there is a
>pretty decent 'vous at Ft. Washita (just a little outside of Madill Ok.)
>during March 29th - April 4th with early setup on March 27th. It is a Ok.
>Historical Society historic site complete with reconstructed buildings,
>barracks, etc.
>
>Your most dis-obed.. oops! I mean obedient servent.
>"Dull Hawk"
>
>----------
>> From: [e-mail]
>> To: [e-mail]
>> Subject: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40
>> Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 8:42 PM
>>
>> I'm headed from Los Angeles to Oklahoma in mid-March, and would like
>> recommendations from the list as to points of interest.  I already have
>Meteor
>> Crater (Williams, AZ), Santa Fe and Taos, NM and the JA Davis and Will
>Rogers
>> Museums (Claremore, OK).  Any additional info would be greatly
>appreciated.
>> Thanks for your time and tolerance.  'Barney Fife'
>>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sidney Porter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40
Date: 30 Jan 1999 23:12:14 -0800

I agree.  Lawton is a nice town and the Museum of the Great Plains is a good
one for a small place.  The Wildlife Refuge is really pretty.  It is in the
Wichita Mountains.  Go up to Meers and have one of the greatest hamburgers
you ever ate.

Sidney Porter


-----Original Message-----


>
>
>We recommend Woolarock in Bartlesville, Oklahoma, just
>south of the Kansas border and Lawton, Oklahoma has the
>Museum of the Great Plains and Wichita National Wild Life Refuge.
>
>Keith and Linda Lawyer
>[e-mail] wrote:
>>
>> I'm headed from Los Angeles to Oklahoma in mid-March, and would like
>> recommendations from the list as to points of interest.  I already
>have Meteor
>> Crater (Williams, AZ), Santa Fe and Taos, NM and the JA Davis and
>Will Rogers
>> Museums (Claremore, OK).  Any additional info would be greatly
>appreciated.
>> Thanks for your time and tolerance.  'Barney Fife'
>>
>>
>
>==
>
>
>Keith and Linda Lawyer
>[e-mail]
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Real Bird's Nests (Was: First Flint and Steel Fire)
Date: 31 Jan 1999 08:35:59 -0700

Barney Fife ([e-mail]) wrote:
>>nobody's mentioned it yet, so i'll throw in my $.02: in my humble opinion, the
best 'birdsnest' is bird's nest.  they are abundant, have been gathered and
formed for you, are usually dry enough to use immediately and flame easily.
hard to beat.<<
I'd better respond, just in case this was not a joke,  The collection of
bird's nests, as well as the birds, feathers, eggs, etc., is strictly
prohibited by law (the North American Migratory Bird Treaty being just one
of many). Bird's nests may not be removed, to protect the breeding birds
that use them. Some bird species re-use the same nests year after year. Some
birds use nests built by other species the previous year or even the
previous week. Removing the nest of an endangered species will land you in
extremely hot water, but in fact nearly* every single nest is protected by
law. For this reason, nobody should knowingly allow real birds nests to be
used in fire lighting competitions.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
Former member of the American Birding Association (until it got too blasted
expensive!), Alberta Bird Atlas Project
Member Canadian Nature Federation, Federation of Alberta Naturalists
Co-author of "Copulatory Behaviour in Great Horned Owls", _Blue Jay_,
Nov-Dec 1997

* (The exceptions would be nests of introduced species like European
Starlings and House Sparrows (but not other sparrow species), but I would
not enjoy trying to prove to a wildlife official that the nest I had been
found with was, beyond a shadow of a doubt, a starling's.)
[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john c. funk,jr" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Real Bird's Nests (Was: First Flint and Steel Fire)
Date: 31 Jan 1999 08:36:37 -0800

Angela,

Good in ya. A point very well taken.............as was pointed out about the
Yucca being a protected plant in California.
-----Original Message-----
Cc: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>


>Barney Fife ([e-mail]) wrote:
>>>nobody's mentioned it yet, so i'll throw in my $.02: in my humble
opinion, the
>best 'birdsnest' is bird's nest.  they are abundant, have been gathered and
>formed for you, are usually dry enough to use immediately and flame easily.
>hard to beat.<<
>I'd better respond, just in case this was not a joke,  The collection of
>bird's nests, as well as the birds, feathers, eggs, etc., is strictly
>prohibited by law (the North American Migratory Bird Treaty being just one
>of many). Bird's nests may not be removed, to protect the breeding birds
>that use them. Some bird species re-use the same nests year after year.
Some
>birds use nests built by other species the previous year or even the
>previous week. Removing the nest of an endangered species will land you in
>extremely hot water, but in fact nearly* every single nest is protected by
>law. For this reason, nobody should knowingly allow real birds nests to be
>used in fire lighting competitions.
>
>Your humble & obedient servant,
>Angela Gottfred
>Former member of the American Birding Association (until it got too blasted
>expensive!), Alberta Bird Atlas Project
>Member Canadian Nature Federation, Federation of Alberta Naturalists
>Co-author of "Copulatory Behaviour in Great Horned Owls", _Blue Jay_,
>Nov-Dec 1997
>
>* (The exceptions would be nests of introduced species like European
>Starlings and House Sparrows (but not other sparrow species), but I would
>not enjoy trying to prove to a wildlife official that the nest I had been
>found with was, beyond a shadow of a doubt, a starling's.)
>[e-mail]
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Parts needed
Date: 31 Jan 1999 14:33:01 EST

I picked up a (Eli) Whitney single barreled percussion shotgun that is in
excellent condition, but is missing some parts.  These guns were assembled by
Whitney, 1866-1869, using surplus .58 cal musket barrels reamed out to .20 ga.
Nothing listed in the Dixie catalog that fits, though they do have some
Whitney parts listed.

I need all the internal action parts, the hammer, and the trigger mechanism,
as well as the screw in side cover.

Any leads appreciated.

OldFox



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Phil Petersen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Medicine Bag & "Chouteau" Coat
Date: 31 Jan 1999 18:42:08 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BE4D49.68259F40
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello to the List.  I was re reading the Summer issue of "The Tomahawk & =
Long Rifle".  The article on the requirements for the Hiveranno Degree =
of Membership lists the above two item being made out of brain tanned =
hides.  Would some one please give a more detailed description of these =
two items.  I would be interested in finding out if I couls sew these =
items.  Also the same article mentions Vegetable tanned items.  What is =
vegetable tanning?  Thanks in advance.  Please respond to:  =
[e-mail]

Phil

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BE4D49.68259F40
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hello to the List.  I was re =
reading the=20
Summer issue of "The Tomahawk & Long Rifle".  The =
article on=20
the requirements for the Hiveranno Degree of Membership lists the above =
two item=20
being made out of brain tanned hides.  Would some one please give a =
more=20
detailed description of these two items.  I would be interested in =
finding=20
out if I couls sew these items.  Also the same article mentions =
Vegetable=20
tanned items.  What is vegetable tanning?  Thanks in =
advance. =20
Please respond to:  <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A></FONT></D=
IV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Phil</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BE4D49.68259F40--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Douglas  Hepner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: JUTE/CHAR
Date: 31 Jan 1999 21:31:10 -0600

    I think maybe a lot of people must not even know if their jute is
treated or not. Guess I just found out why this discussion group is so
important!
    As for char, try using 100% cotton cheese cloth.

Dull Hawk

----------
> From: yellow rose/pendleton <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: MtMan-List: JUTE
> Date: Saturday, January 31, 1998 2:35 AM
>
> Roger,
>   Thanks for the info on jute. I've been using the stuff for years, and
did
> not know it had been treated with a cleaning agent. All I knew was it
would
> burn like crazy. I will no longer use it. Yes I to have seen folks use
> tinder that had to have been enhanced with something. There are lots of
> ways to accomplish, but I won't get into  them here. [ no need in
> encouraging such practices]  Even jute won't literally explode into
flames
> every single time. When I put on a fire starting contest, I always
> specified using natural tinder such as cedar bark, grass, etc. When i can
> get them dry enough, I like to provide pine needles for the contestants.
I
> think this gives all of us a better opportunity to learn to use what our
> forefathers used which was whatever was at hand.
>   A good tip on char, is to char the strings you pull off the fringe of a
> new frock or the ones you pull off the edge of ticking patch material.
They
> work reall well and it goes back to not wasting anything. You will find
it
> catches a spark almost immediately and when you blow on it , it turns
into
> a solid glowing ember. Try it you'll like it.
> Pendleton
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matt and Sarah Mitchell <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Brain Tan
Date: 31 Jan 1999 20:06:49 -0800

This is primarily directed to Matt Richards but anyone with the knowhow
is welcome to help us.

Matt,
My good friend Lee Newbill and I thought we would embark on the task of
brain tanning a couple of deer hides.
We are using your book as the guide, this being our first time at this.
The fleshing went fine. We bucked the hides(soft wood ash) and when they
came out of the solution
They had a definite rotted smell. First question, is this the norm? My
thought is that the bucking solution
was too weak, not thick enough (like a milkshake).
Second, will the hide be OK if we proceed on with the graining even though
there is obvious
decomposition starting here.(smells really really bad)

We did find that we were not graining the hide, just removing the hair
would it be ok to
re-buck the hides to re-infuse with water?

Thanks so much for the help!!

"Pockets"
A.K.A.
Matt Mitchell
Palouse Hills Muzzleloaders
Moscow, Idaho
[e-mail]

  "They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist---"
  General John B. Sedgwick's last words, 1864





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: RANDAL J BUBLITZ <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brain Tan
Date: 31 Jan 1999 20:32:19 -0800

Matt, Matt Richards knows more on this than I, but Every hide I've tanned
did stink rather awful...  I was not too offended, but my wife let me
know that I smelled like death while tanning, and after...  The hides had
a stink to them until after the braining process.  Work fast, hold your
nose, the hides will be fine...Hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matt and Sarah Mitchell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brain Tan
Date: 31 Jan 1999 20:41:33 -0800

At 08:32 PM 1/31/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Matt, Matt Richards knows more on this than I, but Every hide I've tanned
>did stink rather awful...  I was not too offended, but my wife let me
>know that I smelled like death while tanning, and after...  The hides had
>a stink to them until after the braining process.  Work fast, hold your
>nose, the hides will be fine...Hardtack


Thanks that does make me feel better. Do you know what would be rotting that
is making the smell? The mucus layer of the epidermis? Or is it just the
whole hide.
As to the smell, my wife made the same comment today about my smell when I was
done working with the hide. I did also notice that my hands still have the
smell embedded
in them to a small degree and I can't get rid of it. NASTY!!


"Pockets"
A.K.A.
Matt Mitchell
Palouse Hills Muzzleloaders
Moscow, Idaho
[e-mail]

  "They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist---"
  General John B. Sedgwick's last words, 1864





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: RANDAL J BUBLITZ <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brain Tan
Date: 31 Jan 1999 21:17:51 -0800

Matt, well.....you are dealing with part of a dead thing, I think it is
probably the flesh side that stinks worse, but the whole hide is a 'dead'
thing.  Each, of several, hides I have done have smelled bad.  I usually
work the hide in 'spells', I work it awhile, then back into the freezer
until next time.  My wife was not too pleased with the smelly thing going
back into the freezer!  The smell never took in the freezer, though.  The
good news is that I've ended up with beautiful brain tan, from a smelly
old 'dead thing'.   Good luck,   Hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lewis K Raper" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: JUTE/CHAR
Date: 01 Feb 1999 00:39:07 -0500

Oh, yes charred cotton cheese cloth works real good. You just about can't
put that stuff out! that is what I have been using for about a year.
-----Original Message-----


>    I think maybe a lot of people must not even know if their jute is
>treated or not. Guess I just found out why this discussion group is so
>important!
>    As for char, try using 100% cotton cheese cloth.
>
>Dull Hawk
>
>----------
>> From: yellow rose/pendleton <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail]
>> Subject: MtMan-List: JUTE
>> Date: Saturday, January 31, 1998 2:35 AM
>>
>> Roger,
>>   Thanks for the info on jute. I've been using the stuff for years, and
>did
>> not know it had been treated with a cleaning agent. All I knew was it
>would
>> burn like crazy. I will no longer use it. Yes I to have seen folks use
>> tinder that had to have been enhanced with something. There are lots of
>> ways to accomplish, but I won't get into  them here. [ no need in
>> encouraging such practices]  Even jute won't literally explode into
>flames
>> every single time. When I put on a fire starting contest, I always
>> specified using natural tinder such as cedar bark, grass, etc. When i can
>> get them dry enough, I like to provide pine needles for the contestants.
>I
>> think this gives all of us a better opportunity to learn to use what our
>> forefathers used which was whatever was at hand.
>>   A good tip on char, is to char the strings you pull off the fringe of a
>> new frock or the ones you pull off the edge of ticking patch material.
>They
>> work reall well and it goes back to not wasting anything. You will find
>it
>> catches a spark almost immediately and when you blow on it , it turns
>into
>> a solid glowing ember. Try it you'll like it.
>> Pendleton
>>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Real Bird's Nests
Date: 01 Feb 1999 01:42:20 EST

Dear Angela (and the list), My posting was no joke; I get my 'nests' from a
buddy who is an arborist for a local city, and collects bags full of them from
trees that are being cut down or trimmed. Hardly likely they are going to be
used after that, and they work like a champ to start fires.  I do appreciate
your advise about them being protected; being a resident of California, I
should have known. Here, rocks and double-murderers are protected by law and
guns are soon to become an endangered species.    yhs, 'Barney Fife'