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hats-digest         Wednesday, March 25 1998         Volume 02 : Number 046




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 21:50:03 EST
From: Aerechui <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) re- show  chain reaction

Subj:    re show-  chain reaction
Date:    03/23/98

To:    [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail],
[e-mail]

goin thru your world like a chain reaction........

please take a few moments to read what some of us have written, and what  all
of us read when we check our mailboxes:

<<I don't
>think that this concert should be open to anyone else but the hats list
>members.  This may sound harsh, but the majority of true diehard hats fans
>have found this list.  If you're not a true diehard hats fan, then you've
>probably never even tried to find as much info on hats, therefore, never
>stumbling upon the list.  Did that make sense?>>

him then.  Worry not about what other people are doing, worry about
yourself.  Besides, Francis has demonstrated his leadership in this, I'm
sure this discussion is null and void.  I AM being elitist:  I couldn't care
less about the others, and I don't want them there.  For the first time, a
concert along the lines of "An Evening With [insert band name here]" will be
just that: quiet and intimate.  No following star to hotel, no freezing at
stage entrance, nothing, no fighting to sneak backstage.  If we are being
elitist, and you don't like it, it is the same as that whole boot
discussion: don't buy one, don't go to the concert.  'Nuff said.

Cordially,
Rush


publishing the results of the concert, the related carnage and the ensuing
aftermath  *ah, the HORROR!*, shouldn't be a problem...just don't promote the
darn thing, eh? ;)

- -C-


uh...tom...i don't think that the current dispute is about who's in charge of
this show...that is not the isssue right now...the topic of discussion is
deciding whether or not to make this a public (instead of a private)
event.....


*dusting off soapbox*

all-RIGHTY, then.....

okie..yes, eric i realize that this is not an event of MAMMOTH proportions to
most humanoids (though it is to ME!); but then let me ask you, what purpose
would publicizing the show bring?...if this is a closed affair, wouldn't that
have the equivilent of thumbing our noses (ie: conveying an expression of the
very sort of `eliteism' (sp) that has been brought up with much disdain in
recent emailings?) at the masses....and if this winds up being a public
affair, even though you may feel that there may not be such a demand for the
tickets outside of the list, what if there IS? claude himself said that the
majority of the group's fanbase isn't even ON the list...

secondly...i myself am not questioning francis & co.'s handling of the booking
of this show....he is wise enough to realise that part of the final decision
is to be as much of a democratic `coming-to-terms' among the list members as a
WHOLE (perhaps casting a vote, beingst this is turning into such a heated
debate) and, as far as i can see, that is exactly what is being
discussed....nowhere do i see anything about anyone considering assumption of
control over the arrangements or implying that they can do a better
job...francis himself has stated that he would like plenty of input, as he
wants to book something that is to the satisfaction of the list members; welp,
he's getting it:)

finally, as one of the individuals who will most likely be forking out a
decent sum towards the initial deposit/arrangements (for the record, this is
NOT cast in stone, yet, but i am being prepared for such a request) i
certainly would appreciate being able express my opinions/wishes re; this
fete...this does NOT, however, make me blind as to what my fellow listmembers
wishes are re: this matter..i may not be quite as vehement (sp) as some re:
the publicity/accessibility of tickets to this show, but i would like to be
able to state my viewpoints just the same, in a rational, nonthreatening and
constructive manner  :)

*may i have a drink of water, now?*

Charlotte



OK,
I have been sitting on the sidelines about this whole thing, and I have to
put in my 2 cents.  Despite the fact that myself and everyone else on this
list would DIE for tickets to the show, doesn't mean that the whole world
will be clamoring for them.  This isn't U2 or the Stones people.  Lets be
realistic.  I don't see any problem publicizing the show a little bit.  And
let Francis deal with it and if he wants help, he will solicit it.  It seems
as if everyone is a 'wannabe' concert promoter all of a sudden.

<i originally was going to make this a private reply, but what i came up with
had enough valid points as to see if anyone else is in agreeance over....


 yes,i grudgingly admit that it should be Ivan's decision in the end..BUT...

 A)  he has been approached with the express understanding that the list
wanted to book him for a PRIVATE affair....

 B)  if this winds up turning into a public affair, i do not think that the
list would want, nor be expected to, pick up any responsibility for such silly
things as liability insurance for the venue as well as
attendees....furthermore, if Ivan decides he wants a public show, then perhaps
he should consider going through a proper promoter and doing some of the
legwork himself re: venues/insurance and such, instead of leaving all the
details to his `grunt' fans......damn, i know that sounded cold, but  (should
something like this occur) i wouldn't be able to shake the feeling that there
would be something almost `Crawford-esque' about it all....if i want to see a
public show then i would simply wait untill MWH tours in support of their next
album...

 the original intent of this show was to be a private affair between the
artist/band and the list, as well as whomever list members would choose to
bring with them....i rather like the idea of going to a small, intimate
setting, being able to meet and greet some of the faces behind the handles,
seeing a nice tight-but-relaxed set, and just enjoying the evening without
having to worry about gang wars, or pastel punks puking all over and ripping
out fixtures, or clueless folx without something better to do that evening
razzing on something about the show....

 the prospect of turning this into a public event is bound to bring more
trouble than the list members who are arranging this, as well as those members
that are called upon to donate funds towards the fees, should be expected to
shoulder...

 okie, that's enough outta my mouth for now...  :/

 -C->>

These are some good points ...  insurance, legalities, extra ticket sales,
extra footwork, more headaches ---
Originally my vision was that of a small, intimate show with the members of
the list, their family/friends, and the band, not a full-fledged public show.
I want to keep it simple, I really do.  Too much complexity will spoil the
whole thing.  All the bickering going on lately within the list attests to
that!

Angie

all in response to this innocent honest question:
Hi,
Please forgive my utter ignorance here. I am in the process of putting
together the next issue of LExicon mag and I seem to recall that there
is going to be some sort of show by Ivan soon. Can anyone fill me in on
this? I know I should have been reading the postings, but simply have
not had the time. I would love tomention it in the next issue (or if it
has already happened maybe someone has a quick review?)

Thanks
- -Dave Richards

PS- Any one seen Spins Top 42 Altrenative Novelty Hits? Safety Dance is
in there.

and here is the poor fellows response:
Sorry to cause a commotion about all of this.  I am not going to mention
the concert in the next issue. However, it would be nice to have a
review of the show should it go on. If there is anyone out there who
would like to see their stuff in print you can email me a review.  I
hope the show does come off as planned.
- -Dave Richards
Managing Editor
Lexicon

maybe now you see......
goin' thru your world like a chain reaction........


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 22:30:59 -0500 (EST)
From: X <[e-mail]>
Subject: [none]

RUSH

MANY OF US ON THE LIST WANT TO MAKE THIS A PUBLIC AFFAIR- OUTSIDE THE 6
INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE EXPRESSED
OTHERWISE, MIKE, DAVE, STEVEN, CHARLOTTE AND MYSELF WANT TO GIVE ALL HATS
FANS A CHANCE TO COME TO THE SHOW.
I THINK IT IS FAIR TO ASSUME THAT THE VENUE WILL BE INTIMATE AND SMALL-
THIS WE ALL AGREE ON...LETS LEAVE THE REST UP TO FRANCIS.

WOLFGANG

Wolfgang




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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 00:25:06 -0600
From: "Rush" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Off we go...

So forgive me here, what is the point of the show?  I can go see Ivan
anytime.  I can find out and go.  Big deal.  For those of you who have not
been here for well over a year, the point wasn't to go to an Ivan show, the
point was to ask him to do a PRIVATE show for US.  Was, at any point during
the discussion, this UNCLEAR to anyone?
    This discussion is, as I have said, MOOT.  If we get first shot at
tickets in a small club, and we sell out: moot.  If we don't get first shot
at tickets, and a company like Ticketmaster sells the tickets, rest assured,
the brokers WILL get first shot at the tickets:  moot.  If we go *public*
and the list buys all the tickets:  moot.  Jesus, who on the list who is
planning to go will be happy if we make it public, and they don't get
tickets?  Making it public, (as some whiner said, "to be fair") means making
ticket sales fair, which means brokers get the vast majority.  This isn't
rocket science folks, and it never was.  We never discussed Ivan just "doing
a show", he does that all the time.  As far as bickering, lighten up, I
don't have the time to worry about 200 different peoples sensitivities when
I post here, we are just discussing points of view, and the printed word
comes across as more caustic than I would intend.
    Oh, and Arechuei(sp?), thanks for sending me that concoction and inane
commentary of yours three times.  "Here's an idea:  Have a point, it makes
it soooo much more INTERESTING for the reader..."  Anyone know the
movie.....

Cordially,
Rush

"To shrug."  --Ayn Rand






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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 00:41:49 -0800
From: "Eric W. Soderblom" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) WOW!!!!!!!

Hatters-
For some reason, I have never been to the MP3 archive
(http://www.holdman.com/mwh/).  Well, I went there tonight and downloaded
the software (cool!).  And then downloaded a version of Freeways, and was
FREAKING IMPRESSED!!!!!!  If you have never tried it out, GO NOW.  GREAT
WORK RICHARD!!!!

Eric Soderblom
[e-mail]
http://home.earthlink.net/~soderblom



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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 01:27:01 -0800
From: "Eric W. Soderblom" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) MIDI

I have asked this a thousand times, but could someone hook me up with a Hats
MIDI.  Either e-mail it to me, or let me know where to get it.
Thanks-
Eric Soderblom
[e-mail]
http://home.earthlink.net/~soderblom



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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 09:13:00 -0500 (EST)
From: LORD HASENPFEFFER <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Elite!

Claude> What is that suppose to mean?

If Ivan chooses to stick with the "Private Ivan" concept, who would
then dare cry out against his decision to be "elitist"?

BTW, I think "Private Ivan" is a good name for the event, personally.

Myke


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:08:43 EST
From: JAXON9 <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) calling all hats

  We probably all have our own interesting little stories about how Men
Without Hats came into our lives.  My story is through my older sister who
brought home a cassette tape of Pop Goes the World.  The love for the music
has grown since then and excitement reached a high at the discovery of a
"Hats" homepage; and again when I read the news of a mailing list.
  I wish to be added to the list of devotedd fans.  I live in California
between San Francisco and Sacramento and would like to know of the best way to
go about aquiring more Men Without Hats music and memorabilia?
  Many thanks,

Glenn Jackson


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 08:47:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Donald Stroud <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) The Concert: I'm out

To whomever is keeping track of the concert attendence...

Please remove me from the list. I won't be attending.

I have watched the flames and pouting and arguing on the mailing list... and
I'd rather not get involved in a scene like that.

The music is what matters to me, not the politics or the glory of meeting
Ivan and being his best buddy. This has degenerated from a once-in-a-lifetime
chance to an agenda-ridden black hole.

If the show does go through, I hope that those of you who make it have a
great time.

Don2
[e-mail]


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:33:05 -0500 (EST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (hats) The Concert: I'm out

Donald Said:
The music is what matters to me, not the politics or the glory of meeting
Ivan...This has degenerated from a once-in-a-lifetime
chance to an agenda-ridden black hole.


And I say:

Amen. Everyone is like a complaint...personified.





            ******************************
            MAY THIS E-MAIL SUCCEED WHY THE
                E-MAILS OF MY FRIENDS FAIL..YET
                MAY I ALWAYS BE PERCEIVED AS A
                 TEAM PLAYER
                 ***********




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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:35:55 -0600
From: "Rush" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hats) The Concert: I'm out

Dear God, are you two sensitive.  There are 200 hundred people on this list,
and 6 or 7 are having a discussion that will be resolved one way or another
without bloodshed, and "EVERYONE" is a "blackhole"?  Sorry we managed to
evaporate all the peace and warmth and light from it for you, I do hope
you'll get by.  You won't even know the vast majority of people at the
concert, what does it matter, the music will still be there.

Cordially,
Rush

"To shrug."  --Ayn Rand
    -----Original Message-----
    From: [e-mail]

    Donald Said:
    The music is what matters to me, not the politics or the glory of
meeting
    Ivan...

    And I say:

    Amen. Everyone is like a complaint






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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:57:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Donald Stroud <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hats) The Concert: I'm out

Thanks for the patronizing response.

I am not being "sensitive". I'm just watching the bickering escalate. It
doesn't matter how many people are complaining or arguing... the fact that
even *one* person is making a stink about any facet of this concert is
amazing. And look at all the negative things that have been discussed or
revealed during these "discussions": jealousy about not being one of the
people that got to talk to Ivan's manager; people wanting to shut out
anyone from attending who isn't on the list (my girlfriend isn't on the
list, so could I not bring her?); and most mind-boggling to me were the
comments about SUING IVAN IF HE DIDN'T PLAY THE SONGS WE WANT TO HEAR.

I don't think I'm being reactionary in this situation. I just don't want
to be a part of it anymore.

And Rush, if comments like "Sorry we managed to evaporate all the peace and
warmth and light from it for you, I do hope you'll get by" are written by
a person that will be attending this show, then I'm even more satisfied with my
choice to drop out.

Why do *you* want to attend this show, Rush? Is it not the music? Is it
something else? I'm just curious.

Don2

> Dear God, are you two sensitive.  There are 200 hundred people on this list,
> and 6 or 7 are having a discussion that will be resolved one way or another
> without bloodshed, and "EVERYONE" is a "blackhole"?  Sorry we managed to
> evaporate all the peace and warmth and light from it for you, I do hope
> you'll get by.  You won't even know the vast majority of people at the
> concert, what does it matter, the music will still be there.
>
> Cordially,
> Rush
> >



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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:52:26 -0500
From: Brad Hull <[e-mail]>
Subject: [none]

Now I ain't stupid but I can't understand
Why so many things are getting so out of hand
Think we should wonder what the problem could be?
Brad Hull
[e-mail]


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 17:40:58 EST
From: Shriekman <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) The mess . . .

I am saddened by the mess this has turned into, and am beginning to question
whether this show is going to get off the ground.  Personal attacks have made
this unsavory and the two "camps" that have developed are using this list as a
forum for their arguments are getting vicious.  All this for something that
hasn't even been confirmed yet!

 I, for one, think the best idea is to wait and see if Ivan will agree to do
the show and where the show will be held before we (the list) decide how to
wield our power in limiting attendance.  I am willing to go under just about
any circumstance, as long as I can get a couple of tickets.

This may be the only chance for me to see Ivan in concert, and I don't want
these arguments to put that in jeopardy.

Greg


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 17:02:14 -0500 (EST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: (hats) The Hats

    Hey,

    This is just music. And it's meant to be enjoyed.

    Let's have the bickerers bicker and everyone else, like myself,
will go to the show to hear and see a great show. Men Without HATE...let
that be us...

    "...Hope is a good thing...maybe the best of things."
    -Shawshank Redemption






            ******************************
            MAY THIS E-MAIL SUCCEED WHY THE
                E-MAILS OF MY FRIENDS FAIL..YET
                MAY I ALWAYS BE PERCEIVED AS A
                 TEAM PLAYER
                 ***********



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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 18:37:11 -0500 (EST)
From: LORD HASENPFEFFER <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Re: I'm out!

Um, Don2, I think the deal with the concert being for the list members
only means the same as it means for when Laura makes T-shirts.  Only
people on the list and people who know people on the list will have them.
My wife isn't a member of this list but I never considered leaving her
at home while I go off to Canada for a weekend and party with a bunch
of people I didn't know.  I thought it was just generally understood
that "list members only" didn't really mean that in the strictest sense.
I've got friends who are not members of this list to whom I forward
messages from this list when they pertain to the show - if I think it
would help keep them better informed of it just i case they do decide
to go along too.

Myke


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:13:14 -0500 (EST)
From: LORD HASENPFEFFER <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Re: Elite!

No, I wasn't aiming anything at you Claude.
I was just making a point that all this talk about elitism if the
concert is held privately is, as the esteemed Bill Clinton might say,
"a bunch of hooey".  Nobody here is keeping anybody from being able
to join this list.  It's equally available to everybody who can
access it.  Now, computers aren't equally available to everybody
but that's beyond the scope of the Hats list and is unrelated to it
really.  For cryin' out loud, I use a Commodore 128 to get it!
\
Besides, even if we were being elitist about it, as long as nobody's
suffering and/or dying as a result, it's not a problem.  This kind
of stuff is a far cry from the harmful elitism practiced by socialist /
Communist governments which on paper proclaim "equality for all" but
in reality keep all the goodies for themselves, leaving only misery
to be equally distributed amongst the people living under their thumbs.

Myke


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 22:09:08 EST
From: JDivito334 <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Reaction to your comments....

Hey gang.

Since 1 week, I was quiet.  I checked all your messages (but very fast).  I
agree with all this negative reaction coming from you about all the
misunderstanding and childish attitude that has occured during the primary
organisation.  Although, everything has been clarified between concerned
parties.  I could understand your scepticism but rest assured that everything
will be done very profesionnaly and I encourage anyone who would like to
suggest any ideas to come foward with them because my goal is to organize a
concert suitable and to the satisfaction of all the members of the list.

If you don't agree, please, tell me, I won't put any more energy or time to
this wonderful project.  We are all adults, we don't have to fight like
children.

You are going to get the best show ever, why are you talking about stupidity.
PLEASE, change subject and try to focus on your next summer trip.


P.s. Naturally, any member should feel free to invite whom ever they wish
without any hesitations.  They should not be any dictature or imposition as to
who could one bring to the concert.  At least, that's how I feel.


Ciao

Francis


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 22:17:47 EST
From: ADTooley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hats) The Concert

I really did not want to respond to this at first, but I feel I have to so
that things won't get distorted anymore than they are.

In a message dated 98-03-24 17:02:04 EST, dstroud writes:

  << And look at all the negative things that have been discussed or
 revealed during these "discussions": jealousy about not being one of the
 people that got to talk to Ivan's manager; people wanting to shut out
 anyone from attending who isn't on the list (my girlfriend isn't on the
 list, so could I not bring her?); and most mind-boggling to me were the
 comments about SUING IVAN IF HE DIDN'T PLAY THE SONGS WE WANT TO HEAR.
   >>

First of all, it was not an issue of jealousy, it was an issue of trust, and
an issue of hurt.

Secondly, from the very beginning we have said that list members will be free
to bring along as many friends or family members as they want!!

Third, nobody ever actually suggested something as ridiculous as *suing* Ivan.
Give me a break.  Give everyone a break.

I want to tell everyone that if you want to be sure this show happens, one
good way to help the effort is NOT to bicker on this list!  So let's stop this
nonsense before it ruins everything!!!!!!!!!!!

Angie


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 22:23:34 -0500 (EST)
From: LORD HASENPFEFFER <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Re: I'm out!

> So why all this arguing?

I dunno, Claude.  I think you misunderstood my previous posts.
I was speaking in defense of the list.  If the list were not openly
available to the public then perhaps complaints of elitist behaviour
could be justified.  But the fact is, this list is publicly available
- - and free, too! - so calling anything that happens here "elitist"
is foolish (aka "a bunch of hooey").

I think that because people in the UK, US, Australia, Canada, Brazil,
Chile, Japan, and Lord knows where else, are aware that this show is
being planned, there is plenty of proof that it *is* already
being promoted in public.

When we discuss the show via the list, it is being promoted publicly.
The method is not a traditional method, but it is no less public
because this is a public list.

It's a matter of pull vs. push, that's all.

Myke


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 00:10:04 EST
From: HarpiChick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hats) Re: Elite!

In a message dated 98-03-24 19:32:19 EST, [e-mail] writes:

>   For cryin' out loud, I use a Commodore 128 to get it!
>  \

uh, don't feel TOO bad, Myke....one of my two links to this thing involves an
Atari modem  *blush!*

;)


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 00:30:49 EST
From: HarpiChick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hats) The Concert: I'm out

>  In a message dated 98-03-24 17:02:04 EST, DStroud writes:
>
>  people wanting to shut out anyone from attending who isn't on the list
> (my girlfriend isn't on the list, so could I not bring her?); and most mind-
>  boggling to me were the  comments about SUING IVAN IF HE DIDN'T PLAY
>  THE SONGS WE WANT TO HEAR.

  hi donald...

  last time i checked...i was under the impression that list members could
 whomever they wanted to (hell, a football team for all they care!) as long as
 they were able to purchase the tickets.....this arrangement would still be
 much different from  that if the show was a public one...

  the second comment i have posted is equally mind-boggling to me as well...

  *???*

  i myself apologize for being one of the 'loose cannons' that has brought you
 to such a harsh decision....i agree with Aerechui that this latest melodrama
 has escalated from what was originally an innocent post from a well-meaning
 magazine editor....

  ttyl,
  -C-



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 00:47:17 -0600
From: "Rush" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hats) The Concert: I'm out

Yeah, in retrospect, that was a bit patronizing, forgive me.  My point was
simply that I work at the United Center, home of the Chicago Bulls, and I
see what ticket brokers can do.  I am very close to the topic, and I see it
all the time.  A $45US ticket averages $200US per seat.  How many kids get
to see that?  How many true fans can afford that?  For the Stones the $300US
face value tickets are going for $1200-$1700US.  Agreed, Mw/oH/Ivan is not
the Stones, but if ticket brokers heard that it would truly be an intimate
show with conceivably only 100 or so fans w/ Ivan hanging around afterward
to chat, sign autographs, they know they could charge a bundle, and would.
The reason I'm going is simply the music, there are a few people on the list
that I would really like to meet, but I'm under no illusions about all 200.
As C said, bring your friends, bring your family, that was never a problem,
but how would you feel if you couldn't even get/afford the tickets?

Cordially,
Rush
"To shrug."  --Ayn Rand

    -----Original Message-----
    From: HarpiChick <[e-mail]>
    > (my girlfriend isn't on the list, so could I not bring her?); and most
mind-
    >  boggling to me were the  comments about SUING IVAN IF HE DIDN'T PLAY
    >  THE SONGS WE WANT TO HEAR.

      hi donald...

      last time i checked...i was under the impression that list members
could
    whomever they wanted to (hell, a football team for all they care!) as
long as
    they were able to purchase the tickets.....this arrangement would still
be
    much different from  that if the show was a public one...






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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 03:17:46 EST
From: Aerechui <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) peace

please take a moment to read the following:

here is the original message that somebody misunderstood and set off a chain
reaction of harshness and criticism, and worst of all- hurt feelings:

Hi,
Please forgive my utter ignorance here. I am in the process of putting
together the next issue of LExicon mag and I seem to recall that there
is going to be some sort of show by Ivan soon. Can anyone fill me in on
this? I know I should have been reading the postings, but simply have
not had the time. I would love tomention it in the next issue (or if it
has already happened maybe someone has a quick review?)

Thanks
- -Dave Richards

no where in here does he mention wanting to make the show public, or promote
or advertise it even. He could very well have wanted to mention the PRIVATE
show in his magazine, which would have notified some non-list but serious MWH
fans. he could have even listed the list's address (and still could by the
way) so that more could join!
but somehow this turned into something it never was, and people got upset.
i name names here only because i am pointing out the good:

rush deals with ticket brokers on something like a daily basis, sees what they
can do, and was naturally concerned about all of us on this list and our show.
maybe angie has had some bad experiences with shows and the "wrong" crowd
showing up. again, she is expressing concern, not just for herself, but for
all of us who may be attending the show. i know charlotte intends her letters
not to be taken so heavily as some seem to read them.
we all are cool, and anyone who sounds icky in these mails about the show, is
really only concerned that all of us have a good show and a good time at the
show!

i think many of us forget that with mail, especially typewritten mail, it can
be very difficult at times to read the emotion that went into the letter, and
very easy to take it wrong.
please remember this before you get offended at what someone wrote.
and please remember this when you write.
and please don't forget
that the great ones remember

                 peace,
                             Aerechui



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 08:28:56 -0500 (EST)
From: Nathan Shireman <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) PEACE!  FOR GOODNESS SAKES!

Okay,

Here's the thing.  This may be just another posting that everyone will fly
by and not read, but then again, it may not.  Lord knows that I haven't
read all the negative banter going back and forth, just skimmed it.
ANYWAY, one thing I've noticed about the list is that we never can DEBATE.
Debating doesn't exist.  Instead, everyone throws out there two cents and
attacks, okay, I shouldn't say EVERYONE... but for the most part, the
postings I read are abrasive.
When and If we all make it to montreal this summer, I would hate to see
hurt feelings between us all.  It should really be a joyous time, and even
if one or two of us are pissed at one another, it will distract from the
whole theme of what the show is attempting to promote.
So, without further ado... I want to say PEACE!  Please... PEACE!
Let's take the discussion and move on.  Let's contain the disaster, and
begin building the MWH city again.  I know that I have been a part of this
whole mess, and I apologize for it all, and I hope that others will follow
my lead and say... PEACE!  EGAD!  PEACE!

Thanks to all for listening

Nathan




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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:48:37 -0500 (EST)
From: LORD HASENPFEFFER <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Re: PEACE!

A lot of people in the US tend to put down its Constitution because
it was written more than 200 years ago.  They consider it "out of date"
and yet here we are on this list demonstrating the very human nature it
was intended to control.  Left to its own devices, a pure democracy fails.
Democracy has often been compared to two wolves and a sheep voting on
what to have for lunch.  Really, though, what we have on this list are
two "warring" political ideologies - a democracy vs. a representative
republic.  Contrary to common understanding, the United States is not
a democracy.  It is a representative republic with representatives
chosen by the democratic electoral process.  I suggest that the people
on this list too allow the politics of this whole concert creation
thing to be handled by our representative, Francis.  Even though he
wasn't "elected" to do the job, he, by far, is the best candidate for
the job.  If you have ideas, please write a letter to your representative
instead of taking it to the phony courtroom which is "the public".
The public in this case really has no power to control anything.

Myke


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 09:39:22 -0700
From: Senz <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Oh...this list is a political forum, great!

> A lot of people in the US tend to put down its Constitution because
> it was written more than 200 years ago.  They consider it "out of date"
> and yet here we are on this list demonstrating the very human nature it
> was intended to control.  Left to its own devices, a pure democracy fails.
> Democracy has often been compared to two wolves and a sheep voting on
> what to have for lunch.  Really, though, what we have on this list are
> two "warring" political ideologies - a democracy vs. a representative
> republic.  Contrary to common understanding, the United States is not
> a democracy.  It is a representative republic with representatives
> chosen by the democratic electoral process.  I suggest that the people
> on this list too allow the politics of this whole concert creation
> thing to be handled by our representative, Francis.  Even though he
> wasn't "elected" to do the job, he, by far, is the best candidate for
> the job.  If you have ideas, please write a letter to your representative
> instead of taking it to the phony courtroom which is "the public".
> The public in this case really has no power to control anything.
>
> Myke

I prefer the parliamentary view, myself.  (Parliament's been around longer
than the U.S. version of government, anyway.  Moose knows.)  Considering MWH
is a Canadian band...AND Francis is Canadian, I think it's more appropriate
that we think of him as our local MP, (Membre du Parlement)

Senz

p.s. since this list has become a forum for expressing our political views, I
will be drafting a twenty  thousand word manifesto outlining how I believe
hats members should behave from now on, and which I will post in 10 segments
per day until sometime in the year 2010.  Unless someone has a problem with
this?

:-)

Senz again



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------------------------------

End of hats-digest V2 #46
*************************