ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/hats/archive/hats.199907

Internet Message Format | 1999-07-29 | 162KB

From: [e-mail]
Subject: (hats) Cd#10, Bonus tracks
Date: 07 Jul 1999 20:43:03 EDT


Hey gang.

Even if you don't understand French, you will enjoy the bonus tracks

Here is what you will find on Cd#10

From track#1 to track#15, this is the interview in French.

Here is the bonus tracks:
Track #16: The Safety Dance, Karaoke mix
Track #17: The Safety Dance, Karaoke Bio-Mix
Track #18: Ivan, Open your eyes, Riprock's radio
Track #19: Ivan, Open your eyes, Riprock's extension.

I figured it out to fit the 2 "open your eyes" remixes" by compressing
stuffs.  It does not affect que quality.

I still have a douzen of cd#10 not sold.  Just E-mail me if you want my
address to get a copy.

For the people who already sent me 15$, tell me if you have any preferences
to receive 1 or 2 discs.

Ciao

Francis


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (hats) MP3 CD's
Date: 07 Jul 1999 21:48:08 EDT


Mr. Holdman,

     I've been meaning to get in touch with you about the MP3 CD but I lost
the original letter weeks ago. (I even lost your e-mail (sorry, list).)

Thanks,
--Nikolai


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: (hats) Re: Rhythm of Youth on cd
Date: 08 Jul 1999 06:42:17 EDT


where can i get Rhythm of Youth on cd? i thought it was released on cd . can
anyone help?
thanks


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From: Anders Wahlbom <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Re: New 80's Compilation...
Date: 08 Jul 1999 14:40:47 +0200 (MET DST)



Very interesting. I don't know if Tracy Howe is on this list (probably
not); if he's not I'll forward this to him and ask him to comment.
Incredibly nice guy, great at keeping in touch with his fans.

> RATIONAL YOUTH
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Forgotten facts about this Montreal band include: (1) Ivan from Men
> Without Hats was Rational Youth's singer for a period.  He quit after
> someone threw a beer bottle at him during a show at the St. Denis
> Theatre in Montreal. (2) To make matters a little more confusing, leader
> Tracey Howe was once a member of Men Without Hats.  He left in 1981, two
> years before they hit it big with "Safety Dance". (3) Howe had a knack
> of choosing names that were already taken.  Before Rational Youth, he was
> in Heaven Seventeen (not to be confused with Heaven 17, the British Band)

Of course, you all know from which movie it's taken, and also that the
Sheffield H17 started in 1981... (FYI, there were two British Heaven 17;
the lesser-known band tried (unsuccessfully) to sue Gregory/Marsh/Ware,
if my memory is not at fault.)

> and The Normals (not The Normal, Daniel Miller's alter-ego).  "Rational
> Youth" was a derivative of National Youth Orchestra. (4) "Saturdays In
> Silesia" was inspired by the famous Lech Walesa-led strike at the Gdamsk
> Shipyard.  And (5) the last Rational Youth show was at Dalhousie
> University in Halifax in November 1985.

Which isn't 100% right... The last RY show I know of was at Tivoli in
Helsingborg, Sweden on 1 August 1998; can't remember if they went to
Germany after that. There are three photos from that show at
www.rationalyouth.com, taken by Your Humble Narrator... They're a nice
live band; see them if you have the opportunity. If you haven't heard them
there's a bunch of songs on www.mp3.com, put there by the band themselves.
Their newest single, "Everything Is Vapour", was released about a month
ago...

Later (probably much later, seeing as this is the first time in - what, 18
months? - that I've posted to this list),
Anders Wahlbom <[e-mail]> | http://www.update.uu.se/~awahlbom/
(Finger for geek code)                 | http://www.cutoff.se/dss
NOW PLAYING: Rational Youth: "Close To Nature (1998 mix)"



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From: Daniele Rossi <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Montreal
Date: 08 Jul 1999 14:15:12 -0400


Hi everyone!

The list is quiet again so here are some off-topic and on-topic ramblings....

I just got back from a trip to Ottawa, Quebec City, Tadoussac, and
Montreal.  Tadoussac is a small town perfect for whale watching.  Highly
recommened!

Montreal was great and I even had the chance to meet Francis and Vince
Silvaggio (no, Ivan did not show up).  They are very nice people. I picked
up a CD by a Quebecois band called "Swing" (fiddles, dance music, and
french rap including a song called "Life is a vasectomy").  I noticed on
the CD that the label is Tox records.  I thought "Cool, Ivan's label"  Then
Francis told me Ivan doesn't own it anymore :D

I also picked up Mitsou's new CD (Francis and Vince are grimacing right
now!).  She's the one who sang with Ivan.  Um....not to my taste so if
anyone here wants it, let me know.

I was watching the videotape of Ivan's soundcheck last summer, and I
noticed they were using his album.  Did they lipsync?  Also, does anyone
have the transcription to the chat with Ivan two years ago?  I'd love to
read it again.



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From: Anders Wahlbom <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Re: hats-digest V2 #139 (fwd)
Date: 09 Jul 1999 16:20:48 +0200 (MET DST)



Oook!

I've been in touch with Tracy Howe, and he had this to say:

-----

Well, this Hats thing is quite inaccurate. And of course EMI never
understood anything about us so it's not surprising. Please post this to
that group.

First the chronology, and the suggestion that I "had a knack of choosing
names that were already taken":

The Normals were a punk band in 1977-78 that I was the drummer in and
the group Heaven Seventeen existed in Montreal from 1978 to 1980. The
name originates with the film "A Clockwork Orange": In one scene the
main character goes into a record shop which has an imaginary Top Ten
chart on the wall. One of the imaginary groups' names is Heaven
Seventeen. We, and the English band Heaven 17, both stole the name from
the same source - but we stole it first!

Ivan was NEVER a member of Rational Youth, but for a brief period was a
member of Heaven Seventeen and the concert mentioned with the beer
bottle was a Heaven Seventeen gig in early 1980 (we were opening for
XTC).

I joined Men Without Hats in late 1980 and left in the summer of 1981 to
start Rational Youth.

The rest is fairly accurate.

Best regards
Tracy Howe

-----

That's all, folks...

Anders Wahlbom <[e-mail]> | http://www.update.uu.se/~awahlbom/
(Finger for geek code)                 | http://www.cutoff.se/dss
NOW PLAYING: The Invincible Spirit: "Push!" (new version)




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From: Christopher Edward Frey <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) SD chords and more
Date: 09 Jul 1999 23:29:27 -0400 (EDT)


For Kevin and all Guitarists W/out hats,
I have a basic transcription of "the Safety Dance" at my MWH guitar chords
page.  It's hard to emulate the keyboard part, but if you play around with
G, F and E notes on the 1st/high E string while playing a C chord it
works.  Also, I think I mistyped the "Interlude" part which should follow
the "Bridge" pattern of F Bb Ab C (I switched the Ab and Bb).
Good luck and let me know if it works and when we can hear you!

Has anyone else tried out the music?  Please let me know! (Because
"Everybody Wants to Know"...)  :)

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~freyce/music/mwh.html
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~freyce/music/mwh/roy/safetydance.crd

hats off to you,
Chris Frey
<[e-mail]>
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~freyce/




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From: "Aaron Gitlin" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Interesting concept...
Date: 09 Jul 1999 21:33:20 -0700


I'm assuming most of us have heard Fear Factory's cover of "Cars" by Gary
Neuman.  I am an avid fan of heavy metal music...most of my friends don't
understand how I can love Hats and Megadeth equally.  At any rate, I would
like to see someone cover the "Safety Dance" with similar results.  I
honestly think it has the postential to sound awesome.   Who else feels the
same?





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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (hats) Interesting concept...
Date: 10 Jul 1999 00:38:11 EDT


the german prog-metal band Gamma Ray covers It's A Sin by the Pet Shop Boys
on their new album.
dan
------------
In a message dated 7/10/99 4:32:31 AM !!!First Boot!!!, [e-mail]
writes:
<< I'm assuming most of us have heard Fear Factory's cover of "Cars" by Gary
 Neuman.  I am an avid fan of heavy metal music...most of my friends don't
 understand how I can love Hats and Megadeth equally.  At any rate, I would
 like to see someone cover the "Safety Dance" with similar results.  I
honestly think it has the postential to sound awesome.   Who else feels the
same?  >>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: (hats) Interesting concept...
Date: 10 Jul 1999 00:58:58 EDT


in fact, metal band Helloweem has two new wave covers on their upcoming
covers cd:

1.) "Lay Your Love On Me" (by Abba)
2.) "Space Oddity" (by David Bowie)
3.) "Out of nowhere" by Faith No More
4.) "Locomotive Breath" (Jethro Tull)
5.) "He's a Woman She's a Man" (by the Scorpions)
6.) "All My Loving" (by the Beatles)
7.) "Hocus Pocus" (by the band Focus)
8.) "White Room" (by Cream)
9.) "Faith Healer" (by Alex Harvey)
10.) "Rat Bat Blue" (by Deep Purple)
11.) "Juggernaut" (by Frank Marino)

dan


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From: Kevin Lentz <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) RE: Interesting concept
Date: 10 Jul 1999 00:56:55 -0500


Hi,

Thanks to everyone who has sent me info on chords! What I'm trying to
talk my fellow band members into doing is a punk version of Safety
Dance. I've always been firmly convinced that most of the songs on
Rhythm of Youth and Folk of the 80s have a significant punk influence,
and as much as I love the synth sound, I've always wanted to try some of
the songs with distorted guitars (Living in China, Messiahs Die Young,
Ideas for Walls, Safety Dance).

Unfortunately, the other guys in my band are a bit younger than me, and
would rather do covers of Teen Spirit and Faith. That's all good and
well, but... I thought I had them talked into doing Safety Dance. We
messed around with it for a while, and they decided I suck and don't get
to pick any more songs. Well, not really. But I think Safety Dance is
out for the time being. We're supposed to do some demos later this
summer, so I'll keep trying. If anything comes out of it, I'll let y'all
know.

Oh, and Aaron - I dig on Megadeth a whole lot too! Peace Sells, So Far,
and Holy Wars have to be among the absolute coolest albums ever!
--=20
Kevin Lentz (ICQ 10812890)

3=BE-inch Action Figure Archives:
http://www.toymania.com/334archives


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mike <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hats) Interesting concept...
Date: 10 Jul 1999 18:33:50 +0100


>Gary Neuman
i'm sure Gary won't mind you spelling his name wrong - its "Numan" btw.

my dance/industrial album is nearing completion & I'm wondering which MWH
track to cover...

}:-)

http://www.globald.demon.co.uk/   to see alaska highway, pigpen digital &
intersection...



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Daniele Rossi <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) remixes are fun!
Date: 11 Jul 1999 12:47:39 -0400


>understand how I can love Hats and Megadeth equally.  At any rate, I would
>like to see someone cover the "Safety Dance" with similar results.  I
>honestly think it has the postential to sound awesome.   Who else feels the
>same?


I can picture a heavy metal version of it.  Then again, I can picture an
industrial version of "Dancing Queen".  Can anyone picture a synth (a-la
Folk of the 80s 1-3) version of "Sideways"?

======

>my dance/industrial album is nearing completion & I'm wondering which MWH
>track to cover...

I say "Modern(e) Dancing" because I can picture it being industrial/dance.
With all those bleeps and bips, why not? :)  The song can go from it's
normal speed to faster and faster....hm....almost to a rave speed
like...well, modern dancing! :D  Sorry.



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    "Russ Chavez" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hats) Interesting concept...
Date: 11 Jul 1999 23:00:46 -0400


Since I love both Gamma Ray and Helloween, I'll jump on the off-topic
bandwagon here...

The metal band In Flames does a nifty cover of the Depeche Mode song
"Everything Counts" on their Whoracle CD.

~Russ



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mike Vancha <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Hats used CD
Date: 13 Jul 1999 11:01:08 -0600


Hello,

I was curious if anyone had any used Men Without Hats CD they'd like to
sell or trade? I have a friend I'd like to turn on but he only has a CD
player.

Thanks everyone.


Mike




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: (hats) Interesting item on eBay web site item#130155615: Folk Of The 80's - 10" LP - Men Without Hats!
Date: 14 Jul 1999 09:27:26 -0700 (PDT)


MWH's item for sale at eBay, thought that you might be interested.

Title of item:    Folk Of The 80's - 10" LP - Men Without Hats!
Seller:    [e-mail]
Starts:    07/11/99, 15:09:06 PDT
Ends:    07/21/99, 15:09:06 PDT
Price:    Currently $29.99
To bid on the item, go to:    http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130155615


Item Description:








Men Without Hats - FOLK OF THE 80's 10" Vinyl!




Out-Of-Print - Extremely Rare Release




Yes! This is it! The unbelievably extremely rare limited edition hard to find MWH's first vinyl release!4 track 10" vinyl in Excellent/mint condition!Tracks:1 - Modern(e) Dancing.2 - Utter Space3 - Antartica4 - Security (everybody feels better with)Ivan - Voice & electronicsStefan Doroschuk - bassJeremie Arrobas - Drums & electronicsTracy Howe - guitars Recorded summer of '80 in Montreal. hats-001A must have for Hats fans! Plus $4.00 US Shipping.  :)










    Visit eBay, the world's largest Personal Trading Community at http://www.ebay.com


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Richard Holdman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) FW: Copyright infringement
Date: 16 Jul 1999 14:12:46 -0600


Looks like I will not be selling any more CDs. I just got a e-mail from
Stefan Doroschuk (see below) and he does not sound happy.

I will not be accepting any more requests from MWH fans that want these
great live recordings. In the back of my head this whole time I always
thought that MWH would not mind us MWH fans trading these live
recordings. I guess I was wrong. There are many bands today that allow
their fans to trade live recordings (Pearl Jam and others).

>From the e-mail below Stefan Doroschuk says "You have been warned! (And
I have your name and address)." For the past hour I have had this image
in my head. The Image is Stefan Doroschuk holding up a piece of paper.
On the paper are the names and addresses of those MWH fans that have
traded MWH recordings with other fans and Stefan is saying one thing
over and over. "I know their names"

-Richard

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 1:38 PM


This is an official request that you stop selling Men Without Hats CDs
immediately. This is a gross infringement of copyright and if you don't
stop this illegal practise within 48 hours, I will contact the FBI and
lodge an official complaint. I will not be asking a second time. You
have been warned! (And I have your name and address).
The current copyright holder of all songs,
Stefan Doroschuk


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (hats) FW: Copyright infringement
Date: 16 Jul 1999 18:12:02 EDT


One thing you can be sure of: MWH & company will never release a live
recording themselves, so you can give up on the idea of hearing any more live
stuff from them.

Dan
------------
In a message dated 7/16/99 9:52:41 PM !!!First Boot!!!, [e-mail]
writes:
<< Looks like I will not be selling any more CDs. I just got a e-mail from
 Stefan Doroschuk (see below) and he does not sound happy.

 I will not be accepting any more requests from MWH fans that want these
 great live recordings. In the back of my head this whole time I always
 thought that MWH would not mind us MWH fans trading these live
 recordings. I guess I was wrong. There are many bands today that allow
 their fans to trade live recordings (Pearl Jam and others). >>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kerry Gordon" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) MWH 10" Vinyl  - Folk Of The 80's - ebay
Date: 16 Jul 1999 19:06:47 -0400


Up For Grabs - MWH 10" Vinyl  - Folk Of The 80's
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3D130155615

Kerry



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (hats) FW: Copyright infringement
Date: 16 Jul 1999 18:42:46 EDT


It should be pointed out that it is perfectly legal to Trade cds as opposed
to selling them.

Bill
-------------
In a message dated 7/16/99 9:52:41 PM !!!First Boot!!!, [e-mail]
writes:
 << Looks like I will not be selling any more CDs. I just got a e-mail from
  Stefan Doroschuk (see below) and he does not sound happy.

  I will not be accepting any more requests from MWH fans that want these
  great live recordings. >>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hats) FW: Copyright infringement
Date: 16 Jul 1999 16:29:22 -0700 (PDT)





On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 [e-mail] wrote:

>
> It should be pointed out that it is perfectly legal to Trade cds as opposed
> to selling them.

I think technically it's perfectly OK to give something away, but taking
an item in trade is the same as receiving money for it.

dave


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Daniele Rossi <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) no infringements of any kind
Date: 16 Jul 1999 21:27:02 -0400


Interesting how NOW Stefan warns us.  Anyway, I've studied the subject of
legal issues of bootlegs and so far the ones we have (the live ones) are
legal.  Concerts are public domain.  SOme concert halls have a policy that
you cannot record the concerts.  So be it.  Recently, a law was passed in
Canada that a Canadian artist cannot be reocrded.  Well, the live stuff we
have have been recorded way before the 90s :)

Trading live stuff is legal.  It's the charging a fee for a profit that
isn't.  Charging a fee for the cost of mailing, cd, label, etc isn't
illegal.

What is weird is Ivan loved the bootlegs which he got two summers ago but
Stefan hates them?

The iffy part is the 12"s of Moonbeam and Freeways.  But they are ultra rare.

Besides, even if live albums were released, we'd still buy them and really
we'd be th eonly peopel who would care to buy them.  Everyone else think of
Men Without Hats as the group who sang "Safety Dance" and "Whoever sings
that 80s song that goes 'pop goes the world'?".




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Daniele Rossi <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) copyright infringments part 2
Date: 16 Jul 1999 21:38:55 -0400


Addendum.....The "Freeways" cd is ok becuase it is ok to make copies of
what WE have which we all already had anyway.

As for Stefan's remarks about him having our addresses, I think he only has
yours Richard because I for one never gave out mine :)  Don't worry, we
aren't going to be thrown in jail nor will we be forced to give away our
CDs.

You have to look at this issue from his point of view.  He made this
music(or was it Ivan?) and he sees a website of MP3s and other sites
"advertising" bootleg cds.  He's most likely not seein it as harmless
trading and sharing among friends who are fellow-fans.








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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tom Norman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hats) no infringements of any kind
Date: 17 Jul 1999 02:01:52 -0400


>Interesting how NOW Stefan warns us.  Anyway, I've studied the subject of
>legal issues of bootlegs and so far the ones we have (the live ones) are
>legal.  Concerts are public domain.  SOme concert halls have a policy that
>you cannot record the concerts.  So be it.  Recently, a law was passed in
>Canada that a Canadian artist cannot be reocrded.  Well, the live stuff we
>have have been recorded way before the 90s :)


You may have a good point here.  But as far as I am concerned, If Ivan
Stefan or Colin wants us to stop, we should stop.

>Trading live stuff is legal.  It's the charging a fee for a profit that
>isn't.  Charging a fee for the cost of mailing, cd, label, etc isn't
>illegal.


Right.... But we don't want to make enemys of the band we LIKE.   Fans and
the Artist should be on the same side.   Stefan probably gave us a warning
because he is not quite sure himself.  In other words, lets forget about
whats legal and do what is right.


>What is weird is Ivan loved the bootlegs which he got two summers ago but
>Stefan hates them?

>The iffy part is the 12"s of Moonbeam and Freeways.  But they are ultra
rare.
>
>Besides, even if live albums were released, we'd still buy them and really
>we'd be th eonly peopel who would care to buy them.  Everyone else think of
>Men Without Hats as the group who sang "Safety Dance" and "Whoever sings
>that 80s song that goes 'pop goes the world'?".


Hey Richard!   Good call.  Time to call it quits for now.....
Perhaps we can e-mail Stefan and explain to him that we are just sharing
rare MWH material amoungst people on the list, only.

Tom
[e-mail]

Tom
[e-mail]








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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stephen D. Sundstrom" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Copyright Infringement...
Date: 17 Jul 1999 02:29:46 -0600


You know....I guess if Stefan wants the trading of MWH bootlegs stopped,
then it should be stopped.  However, I really wonder if he understands how
the trading/selling of the cd's took place.  I doubt if Richard ever made
much money through the selling of MWH bootlegs.  I know where Richard lives
as well (that one's aimed at you Stefan), and he doesn't live in Beverly
Hills or drive a BMW.  I'd dare say he barely covered the cost of the CDRs
that were used in the burning of the CD's.

Second, I would think that the band would be happy to see such a strong
following and demand for their recordings.  Mabey MWH should capitalize on
this and release a live recording for the public to be able to buy (I would
love to hear a live recording from their Pop Goes The World tour).  I for
one have purchased every album that MWH has released, and still have hopes
to someday see another MWH album released.

But...I don't think that they (MWH) should be upset that fans are desperate
to hear new recordings, and if boots are all that exist, then so be it.

Just the thoughts of one fan.

-Steve




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stephen D. Sundstrom" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Copyright Infringement...
Date: 17 Jul 1999 03:26:54 -0600


As if my last message wasn't long enough, I just had another thought that I
wanted to share with the MWH lists.  Somebody mentioned earlier in this
thread that "we don't want to make enemies with the band we LIKE", which I
have to agree with.  But, I would also say that the band we LIKE, shouldn't
want to make enemies with us.  Without their loyal fans, where would they
be.

I don't know.  I guess I'm just rambling, but seeing Richards posting kind
of suprised me tonight.  Actually, I rolled into the house tonight after
seeing a great concert.  Alphaville was playing their first ever gig in
North America tonight, and in MY hometown nonetheless.  The whole show was
put together, and organized by the people who run their North American fan
club which happens to based out of Provo, UT of all places (there's always
been a big '80s music following here, and bands such as Oingo Boingo and The
Violent Femmes have always made a point to include Salt Lake on their
tours).  I guess I would have just loved to see the former MWH members
utilize the MWH fan mailing list as a tool rather than worry about a small
amount of tape selling.

I also have to agree though, that if the recordings had only been "traded"
rather than "sold", Stefan probably wouldn't be as upset.  But then again,
who knows????

Well, I'll spare you all any more of my rambling.  It's late, about 3:00 am,
and I should try to get some sleep.

Take care,

Steve




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: goreal <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) re: copyright infringement
Date: 17 Jul 1999 09:09:49 -0400 (EDT)


I thought MCA still owned their portion of the recordings, ie. Rhythm
through Freeways?  At least that's how it was when Oglio was
rereleasing their CDs..

The PGTW-forward tracks are anybody's guess, though the band probably
owns those..

How 'bout just giving them away?  CDRs are all but free these days
(with mail-in-rebate), and requestors could supply their own mailer.
No selling there..

Just as surprised as you all must be..

> --- Richard Holdman <[e-mail]> wrote:
> >
> > Looks like I will not be selling any more CDs. I just got a e-mail
> > from
> > Stefan Doroschuk (see below) and he does not sound happy.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: LORD HASENPFEFFER <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Stefan is an ass.
Date: 17 Jul 1999 11:04:29 -0400 (EDT)


Wasn't it mentioned via this list recently that Stefan has his own
group now - or something to that effect?  Well, I have just lost all
interest in anything new he has to offer.  That he's done what he's
done isn't the problem.  It's the manner in which he did it that irks
me.  Distributing rare recordings which aren't available otherwise has
been an exciting part of being a pop/rock music fan for at least the
past 30 years.  Usually people like to hear and own bootlegs of groups
they particularly enjoy, therefore, if I deliberately shield myself
from hearing Stefan's new work, I'll have no desire to seek out live
performances and studio outtakes that aren't otherwise available as well.

I feel that Stefan has attacked us.

I'm outtahere.

Myke


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (hats) Lack of Copyright Infringement...
Date: 17 Jul 1999 14:47:59 EDT




I can't imagine what the problem is with Stefan. I specifically joined this
list to try and buy CD-Rs of Men Without Hats demos, and anyone with the
goods is really reluctant to actually tell me how to order. Maybe they think
I'm Stefan's underling...


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Daniele Rossi <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Stop and smell the roses :)
Date: 17 Jul 1999 16:30:12 -0400


I apologize for all the e-mails I've written (so far 2 but still) about
this but bootlegs have always fascinated me and well, I just can't help
myself!  Then again, Stefan has helped revive this list! ;)

This e-mail is a little long but trust me on this one, I think what I have
to say may calm us down :)

>Wasn't it mentioned via this list recently that Stefan has his own
>group now - or something to that effect?  Well, I have just lost all
>interest in anything new he has to offer.  That he's done what he's

Oh let us not get too far now :)  Keep in mind that Stefan is a musician
who, it seems, just found out his music is being sold by some stranger.
Sure Ivan loved the bootlegs but for all we know, Stefan never knew.  It's
a long shot but maybe Stefan doesn't approve?  We don't know but as Tom
said, let's not become their enemies.  We are greatful fans appreciating
their music after how many years?

So what if Stefan doesn't want us to trade tapes anymore.  We'll still do
it anyway.  Fans worldwide have been doing it for decades!

And, I'm sure Stefan might be a collector-- maybe of Elvis recordings?  So
I'm sure he understands us.  That's why I think he may feel threatended by
the fact that "someone on the Internet" is selling his music.  I'm sure he
has lots of questions to ask (first and foremost it's most likely, "Who
does this guy think he is making money off of our stuff?!").  For all he
knows, his own band's demos can be selling somewhere.

Stop and think for a minute: We've managed to get the demos from "Rhythm of
Youth", "Folk of the 80s Part 3", and the "Winnebago Song".  Pretty
impressive and pretty much impossible to find.  But somehow we got them.
As far as Stefan might be thinking, we've got the power.  We've managed to
get *TEN* bootlegs which is way more than the number of official albums.
That's why I think he said what he felt he had to say. If I was in his
shoes, I'd feel my art was threatened too.  It's just a theory.

So you see, in my opinion, it has nothing to do with trying explain what we
are doing is appreciative, archiving rare recordings, etc.  They already
know that-- fans drove to Montreal (some for 17 hours!!) to meet Ivan and
Colin; they saw our shirts; then drove to Toronto for his next show; Colin
mentioned releasing a demo CD for us fans...trust me they know.

Imagine for a moment again....How did Stefan find out about these bootlegs?
 My guess is he searched on the WWW for "Men Without Hats".  When I did
that last year, aside from the bios and lyrics, all I found was information
on how to get the bootlegs.  And people used the word "sell" meaning
"paying for the disc and mailing etc" but the impression is "profit".

Try not to make Stefan the "George Harisson" of the band.



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: LORD HASENPFEFFER <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Stop and smell the roses :)
Date: 17 Jul 1999 17:49:12 -0400 (EDT)


Stefan could have conferred with his brother first to find out more
about the situation before taking the action he opted to take.

It's not what he's done that irks me.  It's the way he did it.

Richard Holdman isn't a criminal for helping us obtain the CDs
we have, yet Stefan threatens FBI investigations "right off the bat".
What a jerk.

Myke


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stephen D. Sundstrom" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) fwd: Stop and smell the roses...
Date: 17 Jul 1999 17:00:13 -0600


>Stefan could have conferred with his brother first to find out more
>about the situation before taking the action he opted to take.

>It's not what he's done that irks me.  It's the way he did it.

>Richard Holdman isn't a criminal for helping us obtain the CDs
>we have, yet Stefan threatens FBI investigations "right off the bat".
>What a jerk.

>Myke

-----------

I agree Myke...

If Stefan was so concerned, why not approach the situation in a more
reasonable manor.  Why not be more resonable with Richard (or anybody else
on the list...)?  My point is this...If it weren't for the bootleg
trading/selling, then many fans of MWH would never have a chance to hear
these great recordings.  I was just 13 years old in 1984, and really didn't
have the chance to travel from my hometown in Utah to Washington D.C. or
Toronto where some of the recordings took place.  The fact is, there are
plenty of fans that probably would NEVER have the chance to hear MWH live if
not for the bootleg recordings.

My guess is that Stefan probably is more concerned about somebody making a
profit from these recordings, and MWH not getting their fair share.  If this
is the case, then mabey Stefan, Ivan, and Colin should be willing to take a
more active part in keeping in touch with their fans, through such channels
as the MWH mailing list.

However, with that said, I don't really have any "anger" towards Stefan.
I'm just disappointed with how he handled this situation with Richard
(threatening FBI ivolvement, give me a break!).  This isn't to say that if
MWH were to release any new recordings, or even Ivan, Stefan, or Colin for
that sake...that I wouldn't be ready to shell out a few bucks for the CD's.
Hell, I'd be at my local record store in a heartbeat.

Thanks for listening....

Steve





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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: goreal <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hats) copyright
Date: 17 Jul 1999 19:00:28 -0400 (EDT)


'Course we don't know for sure that was Stefan, right?  It takes
practically nothing to forge an email..

Assuming Richard still has the original, he can go through the raw
email heading and try to determine how the email was routed.. might
give an indication one way or the other..



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Richard Holdman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Copyright Infringement
Date: 17 Jul 1999 15:09:04 -0600


I sent a e-mail back to Stefan about the bootlegs and I am waiting to
hear back from him.

I think my first mistake was that I had a Web page (www.holdman.com/mwh)
that people could go to and find out what songs were on the bootlegs and
how to get them. At first I was reluctant to put the bootlegs on my web
page knowing that it might bring trouble, but then I thought about all
the MWH fans that don't even know this Mailing List Exists. I have
received lots of mail from big MWH fans that could not believe these
recordings existed and they had no idea about this mailing list either.

I am hoping that Stefan just thought I was in it to make money and will
understand that we are MWH fans just trying to get all these great live
recordings.

Oh, well... I guess I will just have to wait and see what Stefan writes
back to me.

What is kind of strange is I received the message below a few days
before I got the one from Stefan.

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 9:37 AM


I was just wondering about the mp3 cd you are offering.  Have you given
it a title?  Also you said these were made available through the mailing
list, I'm guessing by you originally.  Are these sanctioned by Ivan?
I'm not a legal snoop or anything, just curious?  Anyway, I'd appreciate
an answer to satisfy my curiosity. :-)  Thanks!  -Paul

------

I am wondering if he knew Stefan and told him or something.

I will let everyone know what Stefan tells me when he e-mails me (if he
ever does)

-Richard

Note: In the very near future I will be making a MWH message board.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tim Grimes <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Question for Richard
Date: 17 Jul 1999 19:41:28 -0600 (MDT)




Was it you that at one point sugested using #mwh on efnet?  If so, what
ever happened to that.  I was on several times, and didn't see anyone
else.  I personally spend a lot of time on IRC so it would be a great
place for me.  Also if you need help with the messages board, I'm willing.

Tim Grimes



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tom Norman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hats) Copyright Infringement
Date: 18 Jul 1999 13:35:06 -0400


>I sent a e-mail back to Stefan about the bootlegs and I am waiting to
>hear back from him.


I also e-mailed Stefan in your defense as well.  I have e-mailed him before,
but never got a response.   I told him that you are not the only responsible
for these CDs.  I told him that I am responsible as well.  Hopefully, I will
get a response.  I am not counting on it.

>I think my first mistake was that I had a Web page (www.holdman.com/mwh)
>that people could go to and find out what songs were on the bootlegs and
>how to get them. At first I was reluctant to put the bootlegs on my web
>page knowing that it might bring trouble, but then I thought about all
>the MWH fans that don't even know this Mailing List Exists. I have
>received lots of mail from big MWH fans that could not believe these
>recordings existed and they had no idea about this mailing list either.


Yes, exactly!  You have turned Men Without Hats into a mega band with
multiple albums, instead of a one hit wonder kinda band with only 1 greatest
hits CD.  The logical thing to do would be to thank you.

>I am hoping that Stefan just thought I was in it to make money and will
>understand that we are MWH fans just trying to get all these great live
>recordings.


This might be an inappropriate time to bring this up..... but If Stefan
thinks that what you are doing is alright......   Can you ask him about the
Pop Goes The World demos?

No....nevermind.  Not a chance.

Tom
[e-mail]




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Daniele Rossi <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) chat tonight?
Date: 18 Jul 1999 15:10:31 -0400


Sorry for yet another e-mail guys!  But tonight I'll be on IRC for a few
hours so I'll stay on #mwh on efnet just in case some of you can pop in.
I'll be online at 5:00 pm Eastern (Toronto, Montreal, New York time) until
around 10pm.



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: LORD HASENPFEFFER <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Stop and dethorn the roses :)
Date: 18 Jul 1999 15:41:15 -0400 (EDT)


ROFLMAO!

I guess you are right too!  :)

Myke


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Daniele Rossi <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hats) Question for Richard
Date: 18 Jul 1999 13:06:00 -0400



>Was it you that at one point sugested using #mwh on efnet?  If so, what
>ever happened to that.  I was on several times, and didn't see anyone

I'd love to go on that chatroom again!  How about we set up a time?



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stephen D. Sundstrom" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Alphaville concert from 7/16/99 in SLC, Utah
Date: 19 Jul 1999 00:38:22 -0600


I mentioned the other day that I had just gotten home from seeing the
Alphaville concert here in SLC, Utah.  One thing I forgot to mention was
that one of the opening bands, a synthpop band called The Echoeing Green out
of New Mexico, played "The Safety Dance" during their set.  Kind of an
interesting cover of the song, but not nearly as enjoyable as listening to
MWH play the song, which I was lucky enough to do when I saw MWH perform as
the opening band for Icehouse on Icehouse' "Man Of Colors" tour.  MWH won
over the crowd like I've never seen an opening act do before, ....but who
would've expected less???

Talk to ya later,

Steve




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jon <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Stefan is an ass.
Date: 18 Jul 1999 13:30:37 -0700


 hey there,

 i support you richard--i completely forgot to order your cds, i guess i'm a
 bit too late. I do the same sort of thing with other artists, and i have
 never received a complaint, but most artists probably aren't hunting around
 for cdr traders.

 I work for a record label and I got in touch with Stefan about donig some
 new material and possibly re-recording some MWH hits for an album. He sent
 in his new project (and it was not very good at all...)

 We haven't replied back. I wasn't going to mention it but i thought i would
 now. This is really a trivial matter, and I understand how he feels, but
 the fans are the ones who BUY the records, if you alienate them, there's
 not much support--so, maybe we can just get back to trading (not selling).

 Anyway, take care,

 jon

> >from hearing Stefan's new work, I'll have no desire to seek out live
> >performances and studio outtakes that aren't otherwise available as well.
> >
> >I feel that Stefan has attacked us.
> >
> >I'm outtahere.
> >
> >Myke
> >



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: (hats) Answer from Stefan
Date: 18 Jul 1999 14:21:04 EDT



 Here is an answer from Stefan..... What can I say.


 In a message dated 99-07-17 16:49:47=E9), [e-mail] writes:
>
> << I realise that he didn't make much money, but that still doesn't give
>  him the right to give away our music for free. So tell everyone to take
>  a deep breath and relax, I certainly can't fault everyone from wanting
>  or having these CDs, I'm sure that I'll get a good laugh out of them
>  myself,
>  Stefan
>   >>







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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "James E. Fowler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hats) no infringements of any kind
Date: 18 Jul 1999 16:13:43 +0000


Daniele Rossi wrote:
>
> Interesting how NOW Stefan warns us.  Anyway, I've studied the subject of
> legal issues of bootlegs and so far the ones we have (the live ones) are
> legal.  Concerts are public domain.  SOme concert halls have a policy that
> you cannot record the concerts.  So be it.  Recently, a law was passed in
> Canada that a Canadian artist cannot be reocrded.  Well, the live stuff we
> have have been recorded way before the 90s :)
>
> Trading live stuff is legal.  It's the charging a fee for a profit that
> isn't.  Charging a fee for the cost of mailing, cd, label, etc isn't
> illegal.

I'm afraid I have to disagree here.  From the point of view of US
copyright law (as I understand it, and I'm not a lawyer), songs
themselves (as opposed to performances or recordings of songs) are
copyrighted.  These copyrights are usually held by the artist
him/herself, or, as is often the case when a song is registered with a
licensing organization such as BMI or ASCAP, an incorporated "publishing
company" (merely a legal entity) created by the artist.  For example, go
to http://www.bmi.com and look up "Safety Dance" -- you'll see that Ivan
Doroschuk is the writer and the music publishing company (holding the
copyright) is "Universal Texascity Music, Inc."  In the US, copyrights
give the copyright holder the *exclusive* rights, including rights to
reproduce the work, distribute the work, or perform the work.  In the
case that a song is registered with a licensing organization, the
licensing organization grants, for example, certain rights to radio
stations, concert promoters, etc., in turn for per-performance or yearly
fees, and then funnels royalty money back to the artist based on a
complicated formula.  It should be noted that the copyright on a song is
completely different than the copyright of a "sound recording" of the
song. For example, the studio recording of "Safety Dance" is copyrighted
by MCA (denoted by "(P) 1983 MCA Records, Inc.").  So for a studio
recording, both the song copyright and the sound-recording copyright
prohibit duplication/distribution, whereas, for a live/bootleg
recording, there is no sound-recording copyright and only the song
copyright applies.  In any event, the songs on the live MWH boots in
question are copyrighted, and therefore production of these boots is
clearly *not* legal---unless whoever (now?) owns "Universal Texascity
Music, Inc." (Stehan?) grants permission.  Additionally, copyright law
prohibits distribution (by sale or other transfer of ownership, rental,
leasing, or lending), so "trading" them would also illegal.  I'm not
sure about whether possessing them is illegal or not, but I do know that
police/customs do often confiscate such items when they happen across
them.  Laws in other countries may vary; however, BMI and ASCAP
licensing operations are worldwide in scope.  See http://www.bmi.com,
http://www.ascap.com, and http://www.loc.gov/copyright for more
information.

--
=======================================================================
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|                         Assistant Professor                         |
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|                     Mississippi State University                    |
|                                                                     |
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|                                                                     |
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: LORD HASENPFEFFER <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Answer from Stefan
Date: 19 Jul 1999 07:45:42 -0400 (EDT)


Did jerk offer any ideas as to whether or not he'd be willing to give
permission if he was asked?  Or perhaps he'd like a cut of our high
profit margins?  I mean we are talking about some pretty high dollar,
high profile stuff here, so I can understand his position. <drip drip drip>

Myke


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: (hats) BOOTLEGS FOR SALE
Date: 19 Jul 1999 07:59:28 EDT


If you are interested for the bootlegs, it's 50$ each, + 80$ of shipping and
handling, + commision to the Doroschuck corporation.  haahahahaha

Francis


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: (hats) Talking about bootlegs
Date: 19 Jul 1999 08:03:50 EDT


Hey, I don't hide myself.

I still have 5 CD#10 not sold, if you are interested to get it, here is what
it contains:

Track #1 to 17, Interview in French with Ivan (full version)
#18 and #19: The SAfety Dance, karaoke mix
#20 and #21: Open your eyes, Riprock's mixes.

The CD is yours for 40$. ..... 30$..... 20..... 15........

Okay   okay, 10$  INCLUDING shipping.  (Where's the profit here).


Just E-mail me to get my address.

(FBI and RCMP are welcome)

Francis


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Richard Holdman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (hats) copyright - It was Stefan for sure
Date: 19 Jul 1999 07:24:15 -0600


It was Him alright. I sent a email back to him at [e-mail]
which mpgang.com is his web site talking about his new album and the
"offical MWH web site"


---

'Course we don't know for sure that was Stefan, right?  It takes
practically nothing to forge an email..

Assuming Richard still has the original, he can go through the raw
email heading and try to determine how the email was routed.. might
give an indication one way or the other..



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Dr. Laura M. B. Kramer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) busy weekend!
Date: 19 Jul 1999 09:43:29 -0400


Hi all!

Steve said,

> ... a synthpop band called The Echoeing Green out
> of New Mexico, played "The Safety Dance" during their set.

Hmm, I wonder if the copyright owners knew about this?  ;-)

Sorry I missed all the excitement this weekend - dog show (what
else?) stuff.

Francis, do you know if Stefan had talked to Ivan or Colin about the
boots before he wrote to Richard?  They seemed to think it was
great when we met them two summers ago.

Richard & Tom, I think Stefan needs my address, too!  I helped
distribute the first Oglio album to our overseas friends, and I worked
with two other hatters to get the 2-fer distributed in this country.
And don't forget the hats T-shirts!  I hope when we're all in jail
together we get shirts with vertical stripes - horizontal stripes make
me look really fat.  ;-)

CUL8R!
:-) Laura in NC


U-CD Cocoa CD NA CGC (1/2 NGC), semi-retired
Mustard CGC
Doctor Pepper CGC


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Richard Holdman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Stefan Doroschuk gives me the "Black Hat" Award
Date: 19 Jul 1999 08:10:51 -0600


Hello fellow hatters

Well I just got a letter Back from Stefan Doroschuk (see the email
below). I tried to explain what the bootlegs were (I included my email
to Stefan). As You can see Stefan gave me the "Black Hat" Award :)

By the way Stefan sounds, it seems like he will never allow trading of
Live Recordings.

I will be adding a chat room to my website today (www.holdman.com/mwh)
and I am going to be e-mailing Stefan asking him to join the chat room
this Thursday at 7:00pm EST. I want everybody that can make it to be
there. I will also be asking Stefan if he could ask Ivan to come into
the Chat room also. I don't know if Ivan or Stefan will show up. If they
don't show up, it will still give us a chance to all meet together.

Remember - This Thursday at 7:00pm EST.

This Chat session will work via your Web Browser with JAVA - You will
also me able to access it a normal IRC client if you wish. The
information about the server name and such will be on my website if you
Wish to use Mirc or another standalone IRC Client.


------
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, July 19, 1999 7:13 AM


Whether you made much money or not is irrelevant. Did you ever think
twice that maybe we don't want these floating around? That if we deemed
these to be up to our standards that maybe we would have put them out on
a live album by now? The net result is you have deprived us of our
artistic license and revenue. You certainly never did me or Ivan any
favors by doing this. But I guess that this is what bootlegs are all
about, ripping off artists. I just hope that all of our fans aren't as
"big fans" as you are. Your 48 hours are almost up and mp3s of anything
are bogus, to put them or not on a MWH site for free is my decision not
yours. Try going to Bruce Springsteen's new show and doing the same
thing and you'll see what I mean!
Stefan
PS you have earned yourself a Black Hat. These are awarded to people who
do harm to MWH and are excommunicated from the circle. Forever doomed to
roam the earth wearing a Black Hat and unable to dance if you want to.
Good riddance!


-=| Message I sent to Stefan |=-

-----Original Message-----
Sent:    Saturday, July 17, 1999 2:55 PM

:(

Ok - I am sad to see you so Mad Stefan - I thought I was doing a service
to all the MWH fans like myself. A lot of bands encouraging the copying
of Live Recordings among fans. (Pearl Jam and many others). I am sorry
if I have done something wrong.

I am not doing this to make any money. I charged $15 for the Media,
printing, shipping and the time it took to burn (it takes about 40 mins
per CD). As a matter of fact I wish that somebody that did hold the
copyrights to these live recordings would offer them for sale so all the
MWH fans of the world could enjoy them. Maybe you could offer them
through you since you hold the copyrights. You should look into some
sites on the Internet like http://www.mp3.com that offer to sell mp3
files on the web. This way MWH fans could continue to enjoy these
recordings.

I receive many emails from people wanting to know where they can buy MWH
albums and I tell them some good places (like CDNOW.com) - I am sure a
lot of them went out and bought these MWH albums which the Copyright
Owners Make Money from.

Is it ok to post mp3 files of the live concerts on My web page? I don't
see what harm there is in MWH fans trading these live recordings. We
don't trade any songs that you could go out and buy, we support the
artist and we have bought all of their releases that they offer but we
still want more. :)

-Richard Holdman

P.S. I am glad you know my Name and Address. It reminds me of one of my
favorite songs "I know their Name"


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: LORD HASENPFEFFER <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) BOOTLEGS FOR SALE
Date: 19 Jul 1999 10:56:50 -0400 (EDT)


> If you are interested for the bootlegs, it's 50$ each, + 80$ of shipping
> and handling, + commision to the Doroschuck corporation.  haahahahaha
>
> Francis

Oh, please can I buy a set???  I'll pay *any price*!  :-)

Myke


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Richard Holdman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) MWH Chatroom
Date: 19 Jul 1999 08:54:19 -0600


Hello.

Well the Chatroom on my website is set up - Http://www.holdman.com/mwh


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (hats) Stefan Doroschuk gives me the "Black Hat" Award
Date: 19 Jul 1999 11:12:39 EDT


Wow! Stephan really is an *ssh*le. I'll never buy anything from him. that is
just way out of line. what a jerk.  Bootlegs increase interest in a group,
just look at what it has done for Phish and the Grateful Dead.  Bootlegs are
about Celebrating artists. oh yeah, I've never bought any of these MWH
bootlegs, but now, if anyone has any interesting ones, let me know what they
are and what is on them and I'll consider some.  And hey, let's face it, Ivan
is Men Without Hats, Stephan is a nobody.  I hearby revoke Stephan's awarding
of the Black Hat to Richard and instead award Stephan a Rotten Soul Award.
hah!

Dan

In a message dated 7/19/99 2:47:59 PM !!!First Boot!!!, [e-mail]
writes:

<< Whether you made much money or not is irrelevant. Did you ever think
 twice that maybe we don't want these floating around? That if we deemed
 these to be up to our standards that maybe we would have put them out on
 a live album by now? The net result is you have deprived us of our
 artistic license and revenue. You certainly never did me or Ivan any
 favors by doing this. But I guess that this is what bootlegs are all
 about, ripping off artists. I just hope that all of our fans aren't as
 "big fans" as you are. Your 48 hours are almost up and mp3s of anything
 are bogus, to put them or not on a MWH site for free is my decision not
 yours. Try going to Bruce Springsteen's new show and doing the same
 thing and you'll see what I mean!
 Stefan
 PS you have earned yourself a Black Hat. These are awarded to people who
 do harm to MWH and are excommunicated from the circle. Forever doomed to
 roam the earth wearing a Black Hat and unable to dance if you want to.
 Good riddance!
  >>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: goreal <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hats) Stefan Doroschuk gives me the "Black Hat" Award
Date: 19 Jul 1999 11:23:21 -0400 (EDT)


just think what you could get for that award on eBay.  "Winner of this
unique item gets a free CDR!"

--- Richard Holdman <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> Hello fellow hatters
>
> Well I just got a letter Back from Stefan Doroschuk (see the email
> below). I tried to explain what the bootlegs were (I included my
> email
> to Stefan). As You can see Stefan gave me the "Black Hat" Award :)
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: LORD HASENPFEFFER <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Stefan Doroschuk gives me the "Black Hat" Award
Date: 19 Jul 1999 11:24:50 -0400 (EDT)


Perhaps somebody should send Stefan a copy of the 1997 videotape where
Ivan signs copies of the first 3 CDs with a pen in his hand and a smile
on his face.

I'm outtahere!

Myke


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: LORD HASENPFEFFER <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) I knew Stefan was upset but this is ridiculous!!
Date: 19 Jul 1999 11:37:04 -0400 (EDT)


CANADIAN TELECOMMUNICATIONS SNAFU: An explosion and fire this morning at
a phone center in downtown Toronto, Canada, cut off phone service and
other communications across the country. Bank machines, cell phones, and
some 911 emergency lines were out of commission, with disruptions from
Halifax on the east coast to Vancouver on the west. The Toronto Stock
Exchange was affected. Authorities told residents of the Toronto area
not to use 911 unless it was a matter of life or death.

http://www.morrock.com


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (hats) FW: Copyright infringement
Date: 19 Jul 1999 11:38:26 EDT


Wasn't Ivan given some of the bootlegs a couple years ago?  I think its kind
of funny that Stefan is taking exception to this.  He must be afraid that the
band [?] is undoubtedly missing out on literally dozens of dollars of
profit!!!!  You would think that they'd want to do about anything to keep
people interested in MWoH- - they haven't exactly lit up the charts for a
while!!


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: paul b go <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) List activity
Date: 19 Jul 1999 11:11:34 -0500 (CDT)


As bad as this all might seem, this is the most active I remember seeing
the list in a year (since the ill-fated reunion concert attempt). Too bad
it takes a negative influence to create some activity among us Hatters.

As an owner of the bootlegs, the t-shirts, and the 2fer I am most
appreciative to everyone involved in bringing these to us, especially, but
not exclusively Richard, Tom, and Laura.  I have used these products
(especially the t-shirts and the bootlegs) to introduce others to the
wonderful world of Men Without Hats, people who otherwise said "Men
Without Hats Greatest Hits? What is that, a CD-single? haha" to people who
will listen to FOE3 or ROY and love it. People say to me "cool shirt" as I
walk the streets or ask "What is that on your shirt?" giving me the
opportunity to let them know of Men Without Hats. And a number of friends
have borrowed my bootlegs to listen to and have added "Collection" or
"Greatest Hats" to their own collections.

I hope Stephen will change his mind, or will at least take a less
adversarial position on the matter. Either way folks... Thanks.

Hatless,

Paul Go
[e-mail]

"The unexamined life is not worth living, and the unlived life is not
worth examining." - Anon.




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: (hats) The "Black Hat" Award
Date: 19 Jul 1999 12:55:06 EDT


In a message dated 7/19/99 7:47:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< -----Original Message-----
 From: Stefan Doroschuk [mailto:[e-mail]]
 Sent: Monday, July 19, 1999 7:13 AM
 To: Richard Holdman
 Subject: Re: Copyright infringement


 Whether you made much money or not is irrelevant. Did you ever think
 twice that maybe we don't want these floating around? That if we deemed
 these to be up to our standards that maybe we would have put them out on
 a live album by now? The net result is you have deprived us of our
 artistic license and revenue. You certainly never did me or Ivan any
 favors by doing this. But I guess that this is what bootlegs are all
 about, ripping off artists. I just hope that all of our fans aren't as
 "big fans" as you are. Your 48 hours are almost up and mp3s of anything
 are bogus, to put them or not on a MWH site for free is my decision not
 yours. Try going to Bruce Springsteen's new show and doing the same
 thing and you'll see what I mean! >>

Does he really think he is in the same league as Bruce Springsteen?   Perhaps
Michael Jackson? He should pull his own "Black Hat" from over his eyes.  Men
Without Hats is a dead band and I sincerely doubt that even a pitiful
"reunion tour" (hey, even BowWowWow gave it a try) would attract a enough
attention to make it  or a re-release of Safety dance feasible.  He should
realize that "big fans" are a service to the band and keep it from completely
falling into the dustbin of history.  It wasn't until after I'd joined this
list that I found out that they had releases beyond PGTW.   God forbid that a
dozen people remain interested!    His comment that if they wanted to release
them, they would have forgets one small detail- a label to do it.  Oooh, I
can see record companies lining up to lose money on a band that is seen as a
one-hit wonder band embraced by a fickle teen audience which long ago lost
interest.   How did Stefan end up with publishing rights?  What happened to
Ivan, or has he simply moved on (as he was able to get a record deal)?
Stefan should really seek an injunction on this mailing list and insist that
all Men Without Hats discussion be routed through his server so that he can
sell advertising or the "addresses that he has" to spammers and monitor
threats to artistic license. That's it.  I don't care anymore.   I've always
greatly enjoyed the music and probably further idealized it because of an
emotional attachment to my youth of the 80s.  Stefan pricked the bubble- it
wasn't that great and if he is this big of a jerk now, I wouldn't have liked
him at all when he was popular.  Sorry folk of the eighties, but there go the
nineties. How do I unsubscribe to this list?


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Schumann <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) bootlegs
Date: 19 Jul 1999 11:30:03 -0500 (CDT)


I have been wrestling with this issue concerning an even less-well-known
80's band. In my case, the band members we could find were tickled about
the publicity, and were not insterested at all in recordings they had made
FIFTEEN YEARS ago.

With all the effort I have put into making these items, I would stop in a
heartbeat if one of the rightful parties would start selling the
recordings, but I don't think it will happen. It's a huge heap of trouble
to release a recording that you will sell 100 of in a good year. Nobody in
business would make such a foolish decision.

To those of us who think the reward is in the sharing, it makes a lot of
sense.

Chris Schumann <[e-mail]>

"I am a cipher, wrapped in an enigma, smothered in secret sauce."
  - Jimmy James, News Radio



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Adam J Weitzman <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Re: bootlegs
Date: 19 Jul 1999 14:07:43 -0400


Just to continue on this thread for a moment:

> From: Stefan Doroschuk [mailto:[e-mail]]
> To: Richard Holdman
> Subject: Re: Copyright infringement
>
> Whether you made much money or not is irrelevant. Did you
> ever think twice that maybe we don't want these floating around?
> That if we deemed these to be up to our standards that maybe
> we would have put them out on a live album by now?

It occurs to me that there are no official recordings whatsoever of live Men
Without Hats material.  Based on this statement, I can only assume that this is
because none of their live performances were any good.  That seems highly
unlikely, but if that's what Stefan really believes, who am I to argue?  I never
saw any of their concerts, so I can't say for sure.

> The net result is you have deprived us of our
> artistic license and revenue.

Revenue?  Doubt it.  This stuff wasn't out there to purchase, so there was no
revenue lost.  Put it another way: is there anyone who owns a bootleg but does
*not* own the official Collection or Greatest Hats comp or the 2-fer?  I own both
(and most people on this list, including me, had to send money to Germany to get
the 2-fer), as well as many other official MWH items, on vinyl, cassette and CD.
They got their money's worth out of me, and I'm sure 95% of the people who
purchased the bootlegs are in the same boat.

However, he absolutely has a point about artistic license.  *They* made the
recordings, so it is theirs to do with as they please.  No fan has any kind of
right to that, much as we would all like to believe otherwise.

If Stefan feels deprived of revenue, I'll be happy to send him money for the
bootlegs I purchased from Richard.  But I don't think that's really what he's
complaining about.  I think he's angry that we took their art and distributed it
amongst ourselves, even though they never said that we could.  Didn't we try and
ask them if it was OK?  I know Richard sent some to Ivan and he liked them.

> You certainly never did me or Ivan any favors by doing this.

Here I disagree with Stefan entirely.  Unless it's the money that he's after (and
again, I doubt that it is), all we did was perpetuate interest in the band.  This
can only be a good thing.  His argument could be that they never wanted us to
hear it because it wasn't as good as the officially released material, and he has
a point there.  But it's really only big fans who were interested in hearing it
anyways, fans who liked the band so much that we were happy just to hear them and
get more insight into a band we really enjoyed.

If you go to his new website for MWH (http://www.mpgang.com/mwhmain.html), he
certainly seems to be fond of the old days.  In fact, on his Q&A page, he
actually suggests that (a) he'd love a copy of the demos, or any MWH bootleg
recording you might have, and would send you a free MPG CD in exchange for it,
and (b) he wouldn't mind if people make copies of any MWH sheet music there might
be and send them to him (again, for a free CD).  I would think that he should be
able to generate new copies of the sheet music himself!

And he has a section ready to make available RA's of old MWH songs and live
versions.  It seems to me that instead of Richard doing the bootlegging, he wants
to do it himself.  I say, great, about time!  And a link for "licensing
information," which is really just an email address.  I wonder what Richard could
license from him and what he would charge.  It would be nice to be official
rather than bootleg, don't you think?

As an aside, I downloaded the MP3's for the Mackenzie-Parker Gang.  Um, let's put
it this way: if I had any of the stuff he wanted, I would send it to him for
nothing and not bother with the free CD.  It sounded very generic and boring to
me.

--
Adam J Weitzman            "They don't make music like that
NewsEdge Corporation        these days.  In fact, sometimes
http://www.newsedge.com     they don't even make music."
http://www.newspage.com                        - Dave Barry




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: LORD HASENPFEFFER <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Hello Goodbye
Date: 19 Jul 1999 14:13:58 -0400 (EDT)


I met you in 1988 while you were touring to support Pop Goes The World.

Both you and Ivan autographed my "Rhythm Of Youth" and "Folk Of The
80's, Part III" LP covers.

I bought "Pop Goes The World" on CD the day after I saw you, Ivan,
Bruce, Heidi, Marika, and Lenny perform.

I have regularly worn in public my homemade yellow and white Men Without
Hats T-shirts for more than two years now.

I own "RoY", "Fot80s3", "PGtW", "In The 21st Century", "Sideways", and
Oglio's "Collection" on CDs.  I own a variety of MWH 12" singles and
albums on vinyl, including the original "Folk of the 80s" EP.

I didn't even know "Sideways" existed until I joined the Men Without
Hats email list in late 1996.  By way of that I learned how to contact
HMV in Toronto so that I could buy a copy of it and complete my MWH CD
collection.  I also bought your brother's CD, "The Spell", at the same
time.

When Oglio released the "2fer" CD a couple of years ago but only outside
of North America, I and many of the other people of the mailing list
organized and pooled our money so that a list subscriber in Germany
could send bulk shipments of it to a list subscriber here in the States
who volunteered to then distributed them domestically to those who'd
paid for them.  That wasn't an easy or inexpensive thing to do but we
were dedicated enough then to do it.

I've even taken the time to create my own rendition of "Life After
Diamond Head" with my Ensoniq EPS-16Plus at home.

It would not be unreasonable to say that for the past 16 of the 33 years
I've been alive on this planet my support for your creative work has
been substantial and avid.  However, due to the content of your recent
exchanges with Richard Holdman regarding the issue of bootleg CD-Rs, I
have removed my name from the shortlist of names of people who claim to
still be your fans.

I understand your argument but I do not approve of your methods.

Richard has done much since I've "met" him to maintain my and other
peoples' interest in your work.  It is *you* who have done yourself and
Ivan no favours by attacking him in the manner in which you have.

You don't have to give me an official black hat award.  I made a bootleg
of Richard's and am wearing it right now with immense pride.

You should apologize.

Myke


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: goreal <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) re: copyright infr.
Date: 19 Jul 1999 14:25:11 -0400 (EDT)


maybe there's a chance that Stefan owns the rights to the songs and
Ivan doesn't.
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: goreal <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) re: mpgang MWH site
Date: 19 Jul 1999 15:08:10 -0400 (EDT)


interesting to see this on the MWH/MPGang main page:

"Coming soon: RealAudio files of old MWH songs & live versions."
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "* *" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) STef's a GOOF!
Date: 19 Jul 1999 11:53:40 PDT



I bump into ivan from time to time... he'd be disgusted with his brother's
comments.
Ivan is MEN WITHOUT HATS
Stefan is NOT.

Besides..Stefan WAS an AVERAGE PRODUCER and a pathetic guitar player -the
live recordings speak for themselves. Perhaps this is why John from the
Doughboys was the guitar player for the last few mwh's tour's- Perhaps this
is where Stefan's frustration really stems.
Actually i could care less about Stefan..
Ivan IS da bomb!
Colin's 2 cd's are brilliant...

hmmmmmm....
2 outta three aint bad.

PS  Myke-DON'T LEAVE THE LIST! WE NEED YOU GUYS !

:)


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: LORD HASENPFEFFER <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) I'm Outtahere!!
Date: 19 Jul 1999 15:38:34 -0400 (EDT)


> PS  Myke-DON'T LEAVE THE LIST! WE NEED YOU GUYS !

Thanks.  Not to worry.  I don't know exactly what I mean to say
when I put that at the bottoms of my messages.  It's just a general
expression of the negative way Stefan has made me feel lately.

Myke


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kerry Gordon" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Bootleg Definition
Date: 19 Jul 1999 17:05:35 -0400


Personally I define bootlegs as unlicensed duplication of officially =
released material (when somebody duplicates a recording and sells it as =
the real thing). This is they type of bootlegging that is more of a =
concern to the recording industry.

I do not classify duplication of unlicensed live recordings or out of =
print rare material, to share with other fans, as "Bootlegging".

The artist is the last person you want to hear from when it comes down to =
the opinion of "You can only share what we want you to share". Artists =
cannot judge for me what I want to hear or what I should hear. I believe =
that all artists should make live recordings available immediatlely =
following each concert. Flubs, mistakes and the like are part of the =
performance and should not make the recording "not good enough" when fans =
are at issue.

When I attend a conference, recordings of most convention speakers (audio =
& video) are always available as you leave regardless of how many ums, ahs =
& mispronounciation the speakers make. Documentation serves a purpose!

Trading recordings with a charge to cover the costs of equipment, =
materials and shipping should not be confused with bootlegging.

Kerry



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tim Grimes <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Bootlegs and such
Date: 19 Jul 1999 16:23:43 -0600 (MDT)


According to the Federal Anti-Piracy and Bootleg FAQ

Counterfeit recordings:  The unauthorized recording of the prerecorded
sounds, as well as the unauthorized duplication of original artwork,
label, trademark, and packaging of prerecorded music.

Pirate recordings: The unauthorized duplication of only the sounds of one
or more legitimate recordings.

Bootleg Recordings:  The unauthorized recording of a musical broadcast, on
radio, or television or of a live concert.

http://www.grayzone.com/faqindex.htm





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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: LORD HASENPFEFFER <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) I was going to post this but somebody beat me to it...
Date: 19 Jul 1999 17:36:55 -0400 (EDT)


...nevertheless I will attempt to explain it in "layman's terms".

Bootlegs are recordings which don't exist in commercial form.

Pirates are recordings of commercial releases which are obviously
        not the real things.

Counterfeits are illegally manufactured copies of commercial releases
             which are packaged and/or marketed in such a way so as to
             fool buyers into believing they're purchasing legitimate
             merchandise.

Myke


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: LORD HASENPFEFFER <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Fair Use
Date: 19 Jul 1999 17:49:17 -0400 (EDT)


Here's the United State Code that pertains to fair use, verbatim:

Sec. 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use
of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or
phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for
purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching
(including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or
research, is not an infringement of copyright.

In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case
is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include -

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use
    is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to
    the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of
    the copyrighted work.

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of
fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above
factors.


From the United States Library of Congress:


                           FAIR USE

One of the rights accorded to the owner of copyright is the right
to reproduce or to authorize others to reproduce the work in
copies or phonorecords. This right is subject to certain
limitations found in sections 107 through 120 of the copyright act
(title 17, U.S. Code). One of the more important limitations is
the doctrine of "fair use." Although fair use was not mentioned in
the previous copyright law, the doctrine has developed through a
substantial number of court decisions over the years. This
doctrine has been codified in section 107 of the copyright law.

Section 107 contains a list of the various purposes for which the
reproduction of a particular work may be considered "fair," such
as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and
research. Section 107 also sets out four factors to be considered
in determining whether or not a particular use is fair:

        (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether
            such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit
            educational purposes;

        (2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

        (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in
            relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

        (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or
            value of the copyrighted work.

The distinction between "fair use" and infringement may be unclear
and not easily defined. There is no specific number of words,
lines, or notes that may safely be taken without permission.

Acknowledging the source of the copyrighted material does not
substitute for obtaining permission.


The 1961 _Report of the Register of Copyrights on the General

Revision of the U.S. Copyright Law_ cites examples of activities
that courts have regarded as fair use: "quotation of excerpts in
a review or criticism for purposes of illustration or comment;
quotation of short passages in a scholarly or technical work, for
illustration or clarification of the author's observations; use in
a parody of some of the content of the work parodied; summary of
an address or article, with brief quotations, in a news report;
reproduction by a library of a portion of a work to replace part
of a damaged copy; reproduction by a teacher or student of a small
part of a work to illustrate a lesson; reproduction of a work in
legislative or judicial proceedings or reports; incidental and
fortuitous reproduction, in a newsreel or broadcast, of a work
located in the scene of an event being reported."

Copyright protects the particular way an author has expressed
himself; it does not extend to any ideas, systems, or factual
information conveyed in the work.

The safest course is always to get permission from the copyright
owner before using copyrighted material. The Copyright Office
cannot give this permission.

When it is impracticable to obtain permission, use of copyrighted
material should be avoided unless the doctrine of "fair use" would
clearly apply to the situation. The Copyright Office can neither
determine if a certain use may be considered "fair" nor advise on
possible copyright violations. If there is any doubt, it is
advisable to consult an attorney.


***Last update 6/10/93 (raa)***



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tim Grimes <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hats) Fair Use
Date: 19 Jul 1999 17:05:40 -0600 (MDT)



And you beat me to that one :)

Tim



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: LORD HASENPFEFFER <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Fair Use
Date: 19 Jul 1999 18:16:53 -0400 (EDT)


> And you beat me to that one :)

:-)

Myke


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: LORD HASENPFEFFER <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Now you know why...
Date: 19 Jul 1999 18:20:44 -0400 (EDT)


I am often prone to referring to the MWH video/CDs collection on VHS
HiFi videotape as "Pirates With Boots".  Not only is that name a funny
pun on the group name "Men Without Hats", it accurately describes the
contents.

Men      Pirates
Without  With
Hats     Boots

Get it?  (Ark! Ark!)

Myke


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Adam J Weitzman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hats) Fair Use
Date: 19 Jul 1999 18:22:21 -0400


By posting this, are you implying that perhaps the fan CDs were "fair
use?"  There is no way that argument holds.  It's a copyright violation,
pure and simple.

I agree that Stefan should lighten up about all this, given the nature
of the recordings, but let's not pretend that these CDs are anything
other than what they are.

--
Adam J Weitzman            "They don't make music like that
NewsEdge Corporation        these days.  In fact, sometimes
http://www.newsedge.com     they don't even make music."
http://www.newspage.com                        - Dave Barry




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jon <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hats) Re: bootlegs
Date: 19 Jul 1999 16:01:59 -0700



Adam J Weitzman wrote:

>information," which is really just an email address.  I wonder what
Richard could
>license from him and what he would charge.  It would be nice to be official
>rather than bootleg, don't you think?
>
>As an aside, I downloaded the MP3's for the Mackenzie-Parker Gang.  Um,
let's put
>it this way: if I had any of the stuff he wanted, I would send it to him for
>nothing and not bother with the free CD.  It sounded very generic and
boring to
>me.


I have to slightly disagree with this statement. The MPG stuff was
downright awful.

I think a retrospective compilation, remixes, live tracks, demos would be
great, and i know a label who would be interested in putting it together.
I'll see what i can do, so maybe the fans can finally have a legalised
version of the bootlegs. :o)

Take care,

jon


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: LORD HASENPFEFFER <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Bootlegs
Date: 19 Jul 1999 19:11:47 -0400 (EDT)


> I think a retrospective compilation, remixes, live tracks, demos would be
> great, and i know a label who would be interested in putting it together.

Yes, a comprehensive, official box set of rarities would indeed be nice.
Especially if it included CD and videotape compilations.

> I'll see what i can do, so maybe the fans can finally have a legalised
> version of the bootlegs. :o)

Your intentions are good, however, I'll be blown away if "Winnebago Song"
is *ever* included on any official release no matter what it is.

Myke


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Daniele Rossi <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) hahahaahah bruce springsteen?
Date: 19 Jul 1999 19:21:31 -0400


Hi everyone,

I read what Stefan wrote about Bruce Springsteen.  But I don't understand
what he meant by that.  Anyway, the ironic thing here is it is known that
Bruce Springsteen became popular because of bootlegs.



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Daniele Rossi <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) we are sucks :)
Date: 19 Jul 1999 19:43:45 -0400


Hi fellow sucks! ;) Ok ok I'm just joking.  What I mean here is after all
this bootleg talk which I normally would absolutely adore but aren't we
getting a teensy weensy little bit out of hand here?  :)  By "we" I mean us
and Stefan.

For us....geez, it's just one member who's a little loopy.  Can't we all
have a bad day? :)

Apparently the Doroshuck brothers don't talk very often.  If Ivan and Colin
loved the bootlegs in 1997 (as well as Bruce Murphy who was here on the
list) and Colin said they'd release a demos cd anyway...

And I'm sure even if they officially release any or all of the bootlegs
(some of the tracks on the Beatles' anthologies came from bootlegs and a
recent Abba box set contained recordings from bootlegs because original
masters were lost--and Abba's against bootlegs and releasing demos).  How
can Stefan think we wouldn't buy it anyway?  Sure we have nice superb
remastered cd quality Freeways and why bother buying it all over again?
BECAUSE WE ARE COLLECTORS DAMMIT!!! :)  So Stefan, if you're reading this,
you have nothing to fear.



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tom Norman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hats) we are sucks :)
Date: 19 Jul 1999 20:50:32 -0400



>Apparently the Doroshuck brothers don't talk very often.  If Ivan and Colin
>loved the bootlegs in 1997 (as well as Bruce Murphy who was here on the
>list) and Colin said they'd release a demos cd anyway...


Well I am one of the people who talked to him about this.  He said he would
like to release everything they had so far on at least a  limited edition
basis for fans like us.  This is assuming they can get the rights back from
Marc Durand.  Right now, it sounds like everyone is in a stale mate.
      He also laughed about the demos.   During our hour talk, he told us
that the Hats have MANY unreleased albums besides the ROY demo tape.   He
was wondering why we were so into this one tape, not understanding that this
is the only one we knew about.  He didn't say they were bad songs.  He just
said that there is so much other great stuff that we haven't heard as well.
It sure sounded like there were at least 2 other unreleased albums before
Pop Goes The World.

  And I'm sure even if they officially release any or all of the bootlegs
>(some of the tracks on the Beatles' anthologies came from bootlegs and a
>recent Abba box set contained recordings from bootlegs because original
>masters were lost--and Abba's against bootlegs and releasing demos).  How
>can Stefan think we wouldn't buy it anyway?  Sure we have nice superb
>remastered cd quality Freeways and why bother buying it all over again?
>BECAUSE WE ARE COLLECTORS DAMMIT!!! :)  So Stefan, if you're reading this,
>you have nothing to fear.


You know I have a feeling that Stefan was talking about the sound quality of
our Live boots, when he said they weren't worthy of release.  You can bet
that the Hats have 0 copy CD quality concerts!  I think maybe Stefan doesn't
want people to think that they sound that distorted and noisy.  They don't!
Colin told me that they taped many shows.  Laura, Dave, and Claude can
verify this.  They were listening too!   I am predicting that they have many
shows that sound better than the Freeways Live boot.
       We will find out soon when Stefan puts those RA files on his page.

Tom
[e-mail]




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: LORD HASENPFEFFER <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Collectors Dammit!!!
Date: 19 Jul 1999 22:33:39 -0400 (EDT)


That's exactly right.

myke


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: LORD HASENPFEFFER <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) RA files
Date: 19 Jul 1999 22:37:20 -0400 (EDT)


RealAudio files sound like crap, though, don't you think?
What's the advantage to having RA files when they have inherently
bad sound.

Myke


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: D Krupla <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hats) Alphaville concert / Echoing Green
Date: 19 Jul 1999 22:58:58 -0400 (EDT)


--- "Stephen D. Sundstrom" <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> I mentioned the other day that I had just gotten home from seeing the
> Alphaville concert here in SLC, Utah.  One thing I forgot to mention
> was
> that one of the opening bands, a synthpop band called The Echoing
> Green out
> of New Mexico, played "The Safety Dance" during their set.


The Echoing Green is a Christian synthpop group, so if you're
interested you may have to check out the Christian bookstores.  I was
surprised by how enjoyable the album with the Safety Dance on it is.
They do a cover of Accidently 4th Street Gloria that is cool.  One
instrumental sounds like it's a redo of some old Herbie Hancock song,
but it's a 98 original.  For the non-Christians out there, I still
recommend the album.  There are only a few songs that are preachy in a
direct Christian manner.  One of my friends, technically a Wiccan,
enjoys the cd.

The Saftey Dance version is one of the better covers, imho.

Dave K



===
"With the rhythm of youth you have nothing to lose.

Cause the rhythm of youth is the rhythm of life
The rhythm of life is the rhythm of youth."

_Rhythm of Youth_, Men Without Hats

_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: LORD HASENPFEFFER <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) I'm Outtahere!
Date: 19 Jul 1999 19:41:36 -0400 (EDT)


> I guess you're very hurt

Not hurt.  Appalled.  Not at what Stefan has done, but the manner in which
he chose to do it.  He's either very stupid, very ignorant or both.

I've not decided to unsubscribe to the list because of this.
"I'm outtahere!!" is just a message expressing the negative way
Stefan has made me feel because of the way he's been towards Richard.

Myke


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Kevin Lentz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hats) we are sucks :)
Date: 19 Jul 1999 19:31:15 -0500


Additionally, the whole of Metallica's "Cliff 'Em All" is comprised of
bootlegged videos. I'm of a mixed mind about this whole thing. I
wholeheartedly agree that the musicians themselves should be in control
of their own work, but I think that Steven has handled the matter in an
imprudent manner.

On an unrelated note, does anyone still have the MWH T-shirts available?
I'd love to get ahold of one. Thanks!
--=20
Kevin Lentz (ICQ 10812890)

3=BE-inch Action Figure Archives:
http://www.toymania.com/334archives


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Stefan Doroschuk <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) What the fuck
Date: 19 Jul 1999 21:37:12 -0500


 This is for all the folks on the mailing list who are receiving my
correspondance with Richard Holdman (and I had no idea that everyone was
listening in). I think that Richard was the only one who understood that
the black hat thing was just a joke. Everyone's busy calling me names
and shit, but no one has yet come up with a good argument as to why I
should let someone else, fan or not, profit from ripping off MWH (or
just rip us off without profit if you prefer). I also don't understand
why everyone is so pissed off since you all have these CDs already!
 Years ago, I bought a cool bootleg of a Lou Reed practise. Although I
consider bootlegs a form of compliment to the band (and I'm sure Lou
does also), I seriously doubt that he would allow a web site to openly
sell these tapes. That's what bootlegs are all about, they're supposed
to be hard to get.
 So I hope everyone can realise that the original message was sent only
to Richard, that it was not directed to anyone else (so they really have
nothing to be mad about) and that they will still enjoy MWH,
 Stefan
PS to the folks who emailed me to diss me and to unsubscribe from the
mailing list: You're a big bunch of babies and you should seriously
think of getting a real life. For those who have shown support, thanx.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot to say, Ivan agrees completely with me !!!
And Jon, you have no class, you should go far in the music biz!




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (hats) What the fuck
Date: 20 Jul 1999 00:13:19 EDT


<< but no one has yet come up with a good argument as to why I
  should let someone else, fan or not, profit from ripping off MWH (or
  just rip us off without profit if you prefer >>
 ------
 bootlegs of this live material does not rip off MWH or anybody else. this is
material that would be never heard anywhere else and only serves to promote
the band and keep the fire alive in the fans hearts. this material is Not
competing with existing live or other material by the band, such arguements
are a joke.  grow up Stephan!

 dan


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Billy Bob The Moonshine Man <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hats) What the fuck
Date: 19 Jul 1999 22:33:29 -0600 (MDT)


Stefan-
    You state that everyone on this list has the bootleg already.  This is
not true.  Since you posted to the list, you must have already read all of
the previous posts since this whole thing started.  You said in one of
your previous emails to Richard (and I do not quote.  I read it a while
ago) that what Richard is doing is corrupting your artistic integrity.  I
would love to buy any new albums that get's put out by MWH.  At the same
time, I do not like having to pay to buy an import that I can only get
online.  As far as I can tell, it is no longer possible to get any or all
of your albums in regular chain stores such as Best Buy in the states.  I
mean, hell, I only live about an hour from Aurora, IL.  I live that close
to where Ivan grew up, and I can't even buy the albums here?  I know that
you put out most of your music out of Canada, but I remember when my
brother bought Pop Goes The World on tape.  It was not an import at that
time, to my knowledge.  There is no way I would have been able to see you
in concert, as I was only 10-13 at the time.  The band, as a collective
whole, should be happy that Richard and people like the members of this
list are out here promoting your music.  When I first heard some of the
mp3's i downloaded off of Richards website over a year ago, it rekindled
my enjoyment of listening to your music.  I heard songs that I had never
heard before, and it opened my eyes to your albums besides Pop Goes The
World.  I have since bought half of your albums because of the mp3's on
Richard's 'site.  In other words, if it wasn't for the mp3's, and live
bootlegged songs, you would not have gotten the royalties off of those
CD's.  I'm sure that there are at least a few other people on the list
that would agree to this.  I use those live mp3's to let my friends know
who MWH are.  My friends are realizing now that the Safety Dance was not
the only song you ever did.  Yes, your aren't getting the money from
Richard selling these CDs.  But I also see no sign that you are wanting to
capitalize on them yourselves.  You might not see them as up to your
standards as a band, but didn't people pay to go see those shows in the
first place?  If we are still wanting these songs, then maybe your
standards for yourselves are a bit too high.  the quality may not always
be there, but the song remains the same.  if you do not want to capitalize
on these live bootlegs, i do not see why you will not let Richard sell
them for the cost to make them, and shipping.  You aren't making anything
off of the CDs, but you weren't making money off these recordings anyways.
Richard isn't making money off of them.  No one is making a profit here,
just spreading the joy of your music to farther reaches, and at the same
time, promoting your other albums.  There is such a difference between
live and studio, you can have 10 versions of the same song, all at
different locations, and they will all sound different.  The difference is
what counts.  The studio albums are all the same versions for the most
part.  Some are extended, but they are all the same quality.  That is how
studio recording works.  You get the sound you want, but it doesn't have
the same feel as live.

Billy Bob The Moonshine Man

Nastalgia just isn't what it used to be.

I have seen the truth, and it makes no sense.

Some people claim that there is a woman to blame, but i know it's my own
damn fault. - Jimmy Buffett, "Margaritaville"

I've heard it said that math is the universal language. I've also
heard people say music is the universal language. But my vote goes to
hardcore pornography. - Andrew Hicks, "A Fifth Year"

Lightsabers don't kill people.  Jedi's kill people. -Jim Rosenburg

ICQ: 7226155



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: (hats) bootlegs
Date: 20 Jul 1999 00:37:50 EDT


My opinion on bootlegs has always been simple.  Those people willing to
record, promote, copy, sell, and pay large prices for bootlegs are already
going to be the kind of fans who have already bought all of the band's
albums, and probably all their singles, imports, posters, t-shirts, books,
concert tickets, etc.

Intellectual property is a reality, but the people participating are your
fans, and most likely they've already given you lots of money.

Andrew


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Russ Kemsley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hats) What the fuck
Date: 19 Jul 1999 21:47:16 -0700


Such language!

So he's pissed because his bootlegs aren't as hard to get as Lou Reed's?
Uh...whatever.



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stephen D. Sundstrom" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Stefan....
Date: 20 Jul 1999 00:39:12 -0600


Stefan,

I think that most of us on the list were just unhappy with what we perceived
as an attack on Richard Holdman.  I've had personal contact with Richard
before, and believe me...he's a great guy.  I just don't understand why you
would want to deprive somebody the opportunity to hear MWH live.  I consider
myself lucky enough to have seen MWH live (as the opening band for
Icehouse), as I've stated before and to this day still think that that
particular show was the best concert I've ever been to.  I've purchased
every copyrighted recording the band has released in one medium or another,
i.e. tape, record, or CD when available (and will continue to purchase any
new recordings that are released as solo artists).  I've even purchased
Ivan's solo work, and am looking forward to buying "Mackenzie-Parker Gang"
cd.  But...I would guess that the average band only releases an album/cd
every 3 years, and eventually the band calls it quits altogether.  Bootlegs
give the fan an opportunity to hear performances that they never in a
million years would have dreamed existed (there was a big discussion about
the song "heaven" on the list a while back and nobody would have ever heard
that song had it not been for the boots, and as somebody said earlier...the
flaws in the performance are part of the charm.

One of the things you said in your thread though, was that "bootlegs" are
supposed to be hard to get.  Well, 5 to 10 years ago they were hard to get.
But, with the internet becoming a household tool, the world has become a
much smaller place.  I know of a internet store where I can get bootlegs
from almost any artist I can think of (for a handsome price).   So,
bootleges will never be as hard to find as they were 10 years ago, but again
we now live in an "information society" (also reference to another great
synthpop band).

Take care,

Steve

p.s.  I was glad to see your  recent post to the mailing list.






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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (hats) What the fuck
Date: 20 Jul 1999 02:33:24 EDT


In a message dated 7/19/99 8:56:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<<  Everyone's busy calling me names
 and shit >>

Uh, and exactly *which* part of Hell's Kitchen are *you* from, eh?

Hasn't this all gone far enough?  I thought we'd all learnt our lesson with
the whole 'concert' faux pas?

*blink*


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stephen D. Sundstrom" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Stefan...
Date: 20 Jul 1999 01:34:37 -0600


One other thing, Stefan said that he couldn't believe what a big thing that
all of this has blown into, and that the people on this list are
overreacting to the situation.  Well, he is probably right.  However, most
of us never have any contact with the musicians that we admire.  You love
somebody's music and you think to yourself "Wow, they must be pretty cool",
and then if you have negative experience with that artist, it tends to
destroy your pre-established views of this person.  At such point, you might
just "overreact".

One such example:  I happened across a recording of Morrissey being
intervied for KROQ.  The interviewer was telling Morrissey of an experience
he had when escorting a group of handi-capped children to a Def Lepard
concert.  After the concert, he pushed one of the kids wheelchairs up
towards the stage and as Joe Elliott was leaving the stage he asked Joe
Elliott if he would autograph this kid's record, as the kid was such a big
fan.  Joe Elliott didn't even stop to look at the kid and walked away saying
"They're all my biggest fans."  Well, after hearing that story, I had no
desire to buy any more Def Lepard recordings.  All I could think about was
what a jerk Joe Elliott was.  The point is, yes, fans do tend to overreact
when their image of someone isn't what they expected.  But, that isn't to
say that I think anybody should have called you names.  And, as for the
person that said that the "Mackenzie-Parker Gang" album sucked, I think he
should let us all decide on that.  I still am anxiously looking forward to
ordering it.

Thanks for listening to me ramble.

Steve




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "* *" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) GROW UP STEFAN!
Date: 19 Jul 1999 21:20:41 PDT


bootlegs of this live material does not rip off MWH or anybody else. this is
material that would be never heard anywhere else and only serves to promote
the band and keep the fire alive in the fans hearts. this material is Not
competing with existing live or other material by the band, such arguements
are a joke.  grow up Stephan!

dan

EXACTLY!
Thankyou Dan!


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jon <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hats) What the fuck
Date: 19 Jul 1999 22:27:42 -0700


>PS to the folks who emailed me to diss me and to unsubscribe from the
>mailing list: You're a big bunch of babies and you should seriously
>think of getting a real life. For those who have shown support, thanx.
>Oh yeah, I almost forgot to say, Ivan agrees completely with me !!!
>And Jon, you have no class, you should go far in the music biz!

I think this whole thing has gone far enough. I apologize for adding my
comments in, it was uncalled for, i was just mad too like the rest of you
guys. Let's go back to being fans, regardless of bootlegs--whatever!! the
point is, we're all fans, let's just enjoy the band's music.

You guys (stefan and Ivan) have put out some great material, and we all
appreciate it. Bootlegs are cool, but the music stands alone. I think that
this whole issue has really blown out of hand, i do understand their
(stefan's) point.

Anyway, I hope some positivity can be restored onto this list.

Sorry for my earlier negative views--

Jon






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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Thomas Bieler  <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hats) FW: Copyright infringement
Date: 20 Jul 1999 17:38:29 +0200 (CEST)


[e-mail]  wrote:

> You would think that they'd want to do about anything to keep
> people interested in MWoH- - they haven't exactly lit up the charts for a
> while!!
Weak point - As I see it, Ivan & Stefan are both struggling to get their
current projects respected as what they are and don't want to be just
'former MWH members'

T.



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Richard Holdman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) WOW!!!
Date: 20 Jul 1999 10:49:15 -0600


The MWH mailing List has kind of been dead for awhile and this whole
thing sure has got it going! :)

I would just like to say Thanks for everyone for supporting me with
these bootlegs. Stefan gave me quite a scare threatening to turn my name
into the FBI. He made me feel like I was a criminal and that I was Enemy
number 1 against MWH. I really thought he was mad as hell at me and did
not consider me a fan at all.

I understand where he is coming from and he has the right to stop if me
he wants (which he did). The only thing I did not like about it is the
way he did it. Stephen Sundstrom made a good point in one of his recent
posts about Def Lepard in which Def Lepard told the young boy in his
wheelchair "They are my biggest fans" and walked past. I am really
having a hard time respecting Stefan at all right now. The only thing
right now making me still like MWH is thinking as Ivan as MWH. If it was
Ivan instead of Stefan that wrote me like that I would be out of here
already and would put up my MWH collection for sale.

I think maybe I might not be as big as of MWH fan as I think I was. I
really did love them and digged their music. I remember when I got the
sideways album a few years back. It was on the internet that I found out
they had a newer album that I did not have. Of course you could not buy
it in a local record store so I went to a specialty shop that had
imports and rare cds. They said they could get it but they would have to
order it. After waiting two weeks the Cd finally came in. I rushed down
to the store and bought it and could not wait to get home to hear it.

I starting listening to it and really did not like it that much. Then
there was a certain song on their that I hated (I think we knew which
one) and at that point I was trying to collect every single thing. I
told myself that I would just not listen to that CD but it would still
be part of my collection. Every time I would see the CD cover though I
would think of that song. I finally sold the CD to a place that takes
used CDs.

What am I trying to say? Heck, I don't know... I guess I am just trying
to release all my thoughts in random order.

I really love IVAN's New album and I listen to it a lot! I am very glad
to see him make music I really like compared to the sideways album.

Where was I? Nowhere I guess.

I would just like to say Thanks for everyone's support and thanks to the
people that made the bootlegs available and I was glad that I was able
to share these recordings with other MWH fans.

As many of you know that have received CDs from me you know I like to go
all out with the artwork and have it printed (I am a graphic designer, I
have to have it like that :) - A lot of the money from the Cds went into
the printing. I spent over $200 on the artwork for the mp3 cds to get
printed and I think I sold about 10 of them. I have a lot of left over
artwork and I am wondering what I should do with it. Maybe I could make
some cool wallpaper out of all of it.

Well maybe I will start working on my next project I have been wanting
to do for quite sometime now. Collecting every single thing done by Book
of Love. They use to be my 2nd favorite band of all time but now they
are my first (You can think of what my favorite band was :) - They are
still my 2nd though)

Thanks for listening to me ramble. Don't forget out MWH Chat Session
this Thursday at 7:00pm EST at http://www.holdman.com/mwh and for those
that are still looking to buy the MWH bootlegs, I am sure you will find
someone that will give them to you. Remember "Everybody's selling
something".

-Richard

P.S. Anybody have any rare Book of Love? :)


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Dave Mattingly" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hats) WOW!!!
Date: 20 Jul 1999 10:34:37 PDT


re: the Subject -- more news about Wendy O'Williams? Oh, that's a different
use of the word WOW...

>I understand where [Stefan] is coming from ...
>I did not like the way he did it

I understand, too. As a fledgling writer, I had posted a lot of my older
stuff for free on the net, and I recently got a publisher interested in
publishing it as a book. So I'm torn between giving my work away like I have
been, and retracting it so that my book will sell...

If Stefan is trying to generate interest in his new band, that's fine. And
if he wants us to stop with the music trading, I can understand that. As for
his methods, I can be forgiving. I figure we just caught him on a bad day or
something. He's probably a decent dude beneath it all.

Instead of dissing MWH, I put my homemade compilation in the CD player a
couple of days ago, and have had it going ever since, to remind me why I
really like these guys. No matter what the personalities behind it, they can
produce some excellent work, that can really inspire me. And I respect them
for that. MWH hasn't dropped any on my own favorite groups list (they've
been number 2 behind Ed's Redeeming Qualities, http://rockin.to/erq, since I
frist heard Ed's about 5 years ago), followed by They Might Be Giants.

I wonder how I might handle huge success. I write articles now for fun, but
if I found that people I didn't know were swapping around my old stuff, I
might feel a little weirded out; I don't know.

Thanks, Richard, for doing so much to support the other fans. And you did
such an excellent job on the CDs themselves that I use your CDs as the
standard to which I strive when I make my own.

>P.S. Anybody have any rare Book of Love? :)

Do you know where I can get their first album on CD? I love the vinyl, but
have never looked for a CD of theirs. Bewitched, Orange and Lemons, Tubular
Bells, and other greats were on that first album.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: LORD HASENPFEFFER <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) been dead for awhile
Date: 20 Jul 1999 13:47:23 -0400 (EDT)


> The MWH mailing List has kind of been dead for awhile and this whole
> thing sure has got it going! :)

We've all been too busy making bootlegs to bother with posting any
messages to one another!

Myke


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kerry Gordon" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Logic?
Date: 20 Jul 1999 15:39:18 -0400


Does anyone understand this logic that I saw posted on another fan-based =
mailing list?

"It's O.K. for a non-fan bootlegger to make big bucks peddling questionable=
 quality bootleg recordings but it's not o.k. for real fans to trade =
better quality recordings with other fans."

Am I missing something?

Kerry



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Richard Holdman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Something to Cheer you up.
Date: 20 Jul 1999 13:57:16 -0600


Hi, its me.

The sunshine is shinning today. I don't know if I told anybody this but
I have a webcam set up at http://www.holdman.com/timpcam

It's non-mwh related, but HEY! Its something positive.

-Richard


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: LORD HASENPFEFFER <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Scrutinized anything lately?
Date: 20 Jul 1999 17:31:41 -0400 (EDT)


> Hi, its me.

The White Zone is for loading and unloading.  If you must
load or unload go to The White Zone...

Myke


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jon <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hats) WOW!!!
Date: 20 Jul 1999 18:19:22 -0700




>Do you know where I can get their first album on CD? I love the vinyl, but
>have never looked for a CD of theirs. Bewitched, Orange and Lemons, Tubular

Actually, i think those tracks were on their second album (lullaby), but
the first (self-titled) album was absolutely brilliant, their best IMO. It
had You make me feel, boy, i touch roses, etc. I can get a copy of that
first album if you want it--it has 5 bonus tracks on it (remixes of all the
singles.) good stuff!

take care,

jon


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Richard Holdman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Bootlegs
Date: 21 Jul 1999 09:23:55 -0600


I was reading the post by Stefan which reads

"So I hope everyone can realise that the original message was sent only
to Richard, that it was not directed to anyone else (so they really have
nothing to be mad about) and that they will still enjoy MWH"

I think what he is saying is that it is fine for the memebers of the
List to trade these bootlegs with another. He just does not want to give
permission for us to do it. As far as I understand it, I am the only one
that is not able to distribute the bootlegs anymore.

-Richard


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Daniele Rossi <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) I Like
Date: 21 Jul 1999 00:17:04 -0400


HA HA! You thought this wasn't an email about the whole Stefan thing!
WRONG!  Just kiddng, only the first paragraph is.  If you're sick of it,
skip down to the next paragraph which talks about the "I Like" video...

In conclusion....I really don't care (I think) which member did what
because I'm kind of used to it.  For example, I don't mean to put Ivan
down, Ivan was very laconic and vague in his replies on the chat we did
with him a few years back.  And he was the same and a little weird on TSN
(then again, I don't blame him.  Look at the show he was on!).  Add to that
the lyrics to 'Superbadgirls' didn't impress me much.  My point is,
everyone has their personalities that are different from everyone and some
people are evil some are kind some are loud some are sexy some are dull
some are losers and some are winners.  Whether you're a dentist or a
celebrity or the person reading this, we're all the same.    HAVEN'T WE
LEARNED ANYTHING FROM "IN THE 21ST CENTURY"?!  Just accept it because we
can still dance if we want to!

Well, on a much needed lighter note (I don't care which band member did
what, for me Men Without Hats has mysteriously always been just Ivan.
Except for the Moonbeam video)...someone once wrote they responded to an ad
in the paper for extras in a video shoot and it turned out to be the video
for "I Like".  After all this bickering and flame throwing and crying and
emailing and replying, I think it would be kinda cool to see how it was
like to be on the set of one of their videos.  Maybe Stefan (are any of the
other members incognito here?) can enlighten us with anecdotes like Bruce
Murphy has before?



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Gegax <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Videos
Date: 21 Jul 1999 22:18:08 -0500


Hi, Chris here.  Writing from Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA.

I would like to get my hands on as many Men Without Hats videos I can.
I'm not interested in concert videos.

I would greatly appreciate any help, or tips on where to look.  Thank
you.



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stephen D. Sundstrom" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Bootleg Trading / Pop Goes The World CD
Date: 21 Jul 1999 21:57:44 -0600


>I was reading the post by Stefan which reads

>"So I hope everyone can realise that the original message was sent only
>to Richard, that it was not directed to anyone else (so they really have
>nothing to be mad about) and that they will still enjoy MWH"
>
>I think what he is saying is that it is fine for the memebers of the
>List to trade these bootlegs with another. He just does not want to give
>permission for us to do it. As far as I understand it, I am the only one
>that is not able to distribute the bootlegs anymore.
>
>-Richard

----------

Actually Richard,  I think he was just sick and tired of hearing everybody
on the list compaining.  I didn't interpret his comments in any way as to
think that he would look away from any kind of bootleg trading.  One thing
that I did find humorous about Stefan's comments though is this; he said
that "only he and Richard" must have understood that his comments about the
"black hat" award were a joke.  Well..., I may not have a very good sense of
humor then.  From reading his comments, there was nothing in the message
that would have led anyone to believe he was joking or being jovial.  In
fact, his comments of "I just hope that all of our fans aren't as "big fans"
as you are. Your 48 hours are almost up..." wouldn't lead me to think that
he had been joking about the infamous "black hat" award.   So, my guess is
that mabey Stefan realized that he had gone "a little" overboard, and was
trying to get some ground back, but I still feel that he wouldn't approve of
ANY bootleg trading whatsoever.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

By the way, I found a web site here in the USA that is selling Pop Goes The
World for $22 plus s&h, which seems like a pretty good deal.  I haven't seen
too many domestic stores selling this CD and the ones that do are asking for
more than that because they claim it is an "import".   If you're interested,
the url is: http://www.adifferentdrum.com/list.html

Talk to ya later.

Steve






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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "levelone" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Re:  Pop Goes The World CD
Date: 22 Jul 1999 08:37:32 +0200




I'm a little confused about the way MWH stuff is distributed over the World.

About 1 year ago, i tried to get my fingers on Some MWH CDs.

I ordered THE COLLECTION, PGTW, ...21st Century, Sideways at www.cdnow.com.
They sent me THE COLLECTION and an EMail, remarking the PGTW,  21st,
Sideways CDs are out of stock and they have to order it themselfes again
before they could ship them.
No problem so far.
3 to 4 weeks after that I got another email by cdnow and they told me the
CDs are totally out of stock and out of print.
As you can imagine, i was verrrrry dissapointed.

A few weeks later, i found another cdstore on the www, this time a german
one called JPC http://www.jpc.de

And what shall i tell you ?

They had lots of MWH stuff. I tried my luck once again, knowing that this
perhaps would be my last chance.
They had THE VERY BEST OF MWH (2-fer) in Stock (!)as well, so i ordered an
amount of 4 CDs.

I got a letter from JPC 1 day after i ordered the cds online, telling me to
be patient because they had to reorder them directly from canada.
And they did. It took 2(!) days and I got THE VERY BEST OF. And it took 2
Weeks from ordering till I got the 2nd package containing all 3 other CDs i
ordered. (i think 2 weeks is a very short time considering a reorder from
Canada to Germany).
I felt like the happiest human being walking planet earth.
The funny thing: I purchased PGTW for the second time. The first time in
1987 and lost it somehow.
"I Like" this CD Store, 'cause you can find lots of 80's stuff there.
Unfortunately i don't know if they ship overseas.

I can't imagine why cdnow couldn't reorder it from canada, telling their
custumers that they are the world's largest music store and the internets
number one music store as well....
And it seems to be a disinformation that all older CDs are out of print (i
think).

Anybody out there who's got an idea ?

Is it useful to order the "Greatest HATS" CD if I own the 2-fer and The
Collection?
Sure i want to get it, but is it important to hurry ?
What do you think ?

A little personal message at the end :

FRANK M. SPINATH, sei doch so gut und melde Dich nochmal per Mail bei mir,
damit ich Deine Emailadresse und Deine "na Du wei▀t schon" nochmal bekomme.
Mir ist meine Festplatte samt allen Daten abgerΣuchert, das ist mir ja
langsam peinlich, erst der Monitor, dann die HD (das mu▀ wohl an der Hitze
liegen), mal gucken was als nΣchstes dran ist, wahrscheinlich das Modem !
WΣre nett von Dir, ich habs zwar schon aus dem Kopf versucht, bekam aber
alles wieder zurⁿck, weil ich diese Uni-Server Adresse nicht richtig
zusammenbekomme.
Okay, bis dann !

Best regards

DAVE









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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stephen D. Sundstrom" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Pop Goes The World CD
Date: 22 Jul 1999 01:37:45 -0600


Dave,

I checked out A Different Drum's web site and online ordering form and it
does look like you can order cd's to a foreing address.  The cost is $2 per
cd for sipping and handling to a foreing address.

As to whether or not you should order "Greatest Hats" since you already have
"MWH Collection"...I would say no.  They are almost identical albums and
track lists.  The only difference is that "Greatest Hats" has the following
three tracks:  Freeways (Euromix), Sideways, and On Tuesday.  These three
songs were replaced with different songs on the "Collection" album.

That is the only difference.  Does anybody else agree with me, or am I just
way out there by saying not to rush out and buy "Greatest Hats" if you
already have "MWH Collection"?

Take Care,

Steve




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Richard Holdman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Chat Session Tonight - 7:00pm EST
Date: 22 Jul 1999 09:46:20 -0600


Just a reminder of our Chat Session Tonight at 7:00pm EST

You can access the Chat Room at
http://www.holdman.com/mwh/chatroom.html

We will be talking about all kinds of things. Everything from bootlegs
to what your favorite MWH song is.

I also sent a message to Stefan asking him to join us tonight. If you
have any questions please feel free to ask me.

-Richard


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: (hats) ROY-FOTE cd
Date: 22 Jul 1999 16:07:59 -0400 (EDT)


Hi all~

A friend of mine is lookng to purchase a copy of the ROY-FOTE cd. Do any
of you know where one can be ordered online? I would appreciate any
info....

Thanx~
D



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: LORD HASENPFEFFER <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) been dead for awhile
Date: 24 Jul 1999 21:56:57 -0400 (EDT)


Thanks for loving my sarcasm, however, I don't think you should have
been that way with Stefan.  I disagree with his methods but it hasn't
made me lose my cool.  I was really careful in my message to him not
to resort to calling him names or cursing or making threats.

Myke


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stephen D. Sundstrom" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Thursday's Chat session
Date: 25 Jul 1999 00:48:33 -0600


Richard,

Sorry I missed the MWH chat session on Thursday.  Between work and school,
Thursday's are pretty full for me.   Did very many people participate, and
was there anything interesting discussed?

I was just wondering.

Thanks,

Steve




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: goreal <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) FYI, new RealAudio clip on Stefan's page..
Date: 28 Jul 1999 08:17:09 -0700 (PDT)


check out http://www.mpgang.com/mwhmain.html
_____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: LORD HASENPFEFFER <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) FYI, new RealAudio clip on Stefan's page..
Date: 28 Jul 1999 11:58:13 -0400 (EDT)


The song's kewl but I'd rather listen to AM than RealAudio.

Myke


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: goreal <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) re: chat session?
Date: 28 Jul 1999 10:31:22 -0700 (PDT)


..this was asked before, but does anyone have a transcript of the
session?  A summary?  Was it that bad?

_____________________________________________________________
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: (hats) 20...15...10...4....2.....1.......0000000
Date: 28 Jul 1999 23:39:33 EDT


Hey gang.

IVAN SMILING.....YES SMILING.... see below

The 20 cd's I burned last month are almost history.  I still have 3 of them.

CD #10 contains a french interview with Ivan in 1988

Also, as bonus tracks, 2 versions of "the safety dance" karaoke   and

                                  2 remixes of OPEN YOUR EYES (RIP ROCK MIX)

Let me know, the price is 10$,  EVERYTHING included.


IS HE REALLY SMILING????????
Daniele Rossi reminded me that on the sleeve of CD#10, there is a rare
picture of Ivan and the band smiling.  If you are interested to get this
picture, E-mail me, I'll send it to you thru E-mail.


Francis


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Daniele Rossi <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) cool to hear a "new" song
Date: 29 Jul 1999 20:26:19 -0400


After all this talk about uploading music on the Internet for all the world
to steal...oh nevermind... (just kidding!!) it was great to hear a song I
haven't heard before by Men Without Hats.  Very slow and a little creepy!
:D  I guess it was for the Pop Goes The World album or I assume "In The
21st Century".  It mixes perfectly with "Lose My Way". I'd love to hear
more!  I'm bookamrking that page :)

>IS HE REALLY SMILING????????
>Daniele Rossi reminded me that on the sleeve of CD#10, there is a rare
>picture of Ivan and the band smiling.  If you are interested to get this

And in the tv guide this week, there's a picture of some actor with such an
angry face making a rather rude obscene gesture.  And he looks just like
Ivan! :D

This 10th bootleg is interesting.  It's fun to hear all the songs -- and
those not released as singles!-- played on a little documentary/interview.
There's a comment somewhere saying something like (I can't understand
French that well) the band (at the time) is like a cartoon and it's a
bizarre band.  I guess it true! :)  As I was listening to it, "I Got The
Message" came on and I still can't beleive what a cool song this still is!!
And those aren't karaoke versions of Safety Dance-- they are the
instrumental (you can hear a bit of Ivan's vocals).  Ia lways thought
karoake versions were cheap imitations but I was sos urprised to hear the
instrumental of that song.  VERY different from the rest of the album
indeed!  and that other one...that's the one from Biodome?!  I thought it
was just a drum beat?  Where did those guitars come from?  It's so cool!




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Dave Mattingly" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Lounge Cover Version of Safety Dance
Date: 29 Jul 1999 20:53:18 -0400


Check out http://www.geocities.com/soho/5953/safetydance.mp3

I was told that the artist is an MTV VJ named Simone Angel, from an album
called Dance Trax. Can anyone confirm this? I can find no evidence of this
album.

Dave Mattingly
[e-mail]



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (hats) cool to hear a "new" song
Date: 29 Jul 1999 22:29:29 EDT


Same Halo is awesome!!!


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Toby Elliott <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hats) Lounge Cover Version of Safety Dance
Date: 30 Jul 1999 08:56:32 -0400 (EDT)



That's Jaymz Bee and the Royal Jelly Orchestra featuring Kyree Vibrant.
It's the first track off their album "shakin' and stirred".

It's a wonderful album of lounge covers with various guest artists taking
their turn, um, paying homage to varous songs from the last few
decades. Safety Dance is one of the highlights, but I'm a little biased.

Here's the track list:

1. Safety Dance
2. Turn Me Loose
3. American Woman
4. You Oughta Know (hilarious - the light, happy, male version!)
5. Run To You
6. Closer to the Heart
7. Takin' Care of Business
8. Superman's Song
9. Spaceship Superstar
10. Born to be Wild
11. Sunglasses at Night


Highly recommended.

Regards,
Toby Elliott




On Thu, 29 Jul 1999, Dave Mattingly wrote:

>
>Check out http://www.geocities.com/soho/5953/safetydance.mp3
>
>I was told that the artist is an MTV VJ named Simone Angel, from an album
>called Dance Trax. Can anyone confirm this? I can find no evidence of
this
>album.




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Frank M. Spinath" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hats) Lounge Cover Version of Safety Dance
Date: 30 Jul 1999 09:01:07 +0200


Terrific version, I'd say. It reminds me of Mike Flowers Pops who did a
great cover version of the Oasis hit "Wonderwall".

Frank M. Spinath


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