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glencook-fans-digest    Sunday, September 14 2003    Volume 01 : Number 264




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:30:32 -0400
From: Mike H. <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Taken&Shadowmasters

>Thanks for the repost... not sure I ever saw the original.

This is technically the third posting, I remember putting it up again a
previous time,
because my original text set off Mr. Harris's email filters for smutty
material.
I had used the word "hard-core" minus of course the hyphen. Don't want to set
off any
filters again. If you wanted to see the original post, it's on the archives of
this fan website.

>Being an extraordinary picky person, I've made a few notes, comments, etc.

Great, I like to sort out the little details with fellow fans, but people
rarely do this
for books other than the classics and the Bestsellers.

>Actually, it's pretty clear Lady sent Shifter south in case her plan went
>wrong, to prepare an escape route for her. Witness the large amount of
>magical materials he turns over to her. Lady later sends Lisa as an
>apprentice for Shifter, indicating that she knows where he is. Also, since
>Stormbringer doesn't cut and run until AFTER Shifter heads south, he can't
>have been in pursuit of her.

That's probably the achille's heel of my little gibber about Shifter.
...I forgot some of the sequence of his actions before he killed Stormshadow.
For some reason I can't recall much about him giving Lady any
magical materials, I'd like to check that out. Where can I find that
in the texts? Also, I have been under the impression that Shifter
attacked Bringer on his own accord, but that's another spot I may have
forgotten: his exact motives. Do you have any references for that part, too,
because I wouldn't even know where to start looking.

>The problem here is to determine what "several" means. Any number of the
>Shadowmasters could have been from the same places as Longshadow and
>Shadowspinner. It seems unlikely to me that "several" means "half."

"Several" does not mean half; it means five in my theory. Remember :
Stormshadow,
Howler, Nightcrawler, Moonbiter, and the Faceless Man.
Of course, several is even less likely to mean only "two", which of course
would
be Bringer and Howler who are the only ones we know for sure. So I highly doubt
that "any number could have been from" Longshadow's land, because "any" could
refer to 6, leaving only 2 who could be Taken. And again, "several" would only
be used
to describe 2 or even 3 out of 8 by someone who doesn't speak English as a
first
language, because several by definition refers to "more than two or three"
and in common usage, at least every time I hear it, is mostly referring to a
near majority.
And if half were from the north, Doj would have said half. So, five is
the magic number that makes the most sense imo.

>In addition, I see no reason to believe that the Taken versus Taken battles
>indicated in The Black Company weren't genuine. That suggests that one of
>the two (Faceless/Moonbiter) was either genuinely killed, or had a genuine
>feud with the other, making it unlikely they'd have evacuated
>together. Moonbiter's tactics in combat seem to suggest a rather
>straightforward mind, so I'd point to the Faceless Man as the likely
>escapee. However, 'Catcher expected Moonshadow to be one of the Taken. So
>the question is whether she expected that on the basis of the name, or for
>more concrete reasons.

The whole description of the end Taken-feuds in book 1 reeked of something
fishy.
No details were given, no bodies were mentioned, and the circumstances were
just downright shady. It was a blind mess of flesh and monsters, and
scheming super-mages who had the perfect opportunity to escape.

>Nightcrawler, if lost to rebel action, may have been destroyed completely,
>leaving no body to bury.

That's possible. But the officials back at the Tower would have specified that
Nightcrawler's
remains were taken and had disappeared into the hands of the enemy. I say this
because they
were so thorough and honest in their documentation and reports to Otto and
Hagop.

>Is it clear that all of the present Shadowmasters were Shadowmasters when
>the Gate went the first time? Moonshadow, for example, may have been a
>lesser sorcerer who took the place of a Shadowmaster who was killed.

That is entirely possible... just like my theory, because Glen doesn't specify
the
details. But I'm considering only characters who have already been introduced
and who suddenly left the pages of the first novel. The theory you mentioned
requires
characters that are unknown, unseen, and entirely unmentioned. Imo, it's a case
of Ockham's
Razor. Both of our ideas are totally plausible but the one in my old post
introduces no
variables, and even accounts for the three mysteriously missing bodies of the
Taken who could not be accounted for.

Besides, the numbers work out perfectly. For my tidy package to work, of course
we must assume that the 4 known Shadowmasters were present during the crisis,
along with Howler though we know for sure he was there, but it's a logical and
safe assumption.
That leaves three unnamed wizards.
It seems to me that Glen wrote the names of Biter, the Faceless, and
Nightcrawler in
Bleak Seasons as perfect possibilities for these three missing, yet now dead,
wizards.

>David


=======================================================================
 To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
 visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:48:52 -0500 (CDT)
From: Changeling <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Taken&Shadowmasters

One of the things that I've notcied about from some of the conversations
I've had with Glen and from the interviews that folks've posted here is
that Glen frequently left unanswered questions out there intentionally.
And that he doesn't necessarily know the answers himself until he needs
to.
Example: When asked about which of the Taken are male and which female he
has said "Oh, I don't know. It never really mattered." Or words to that
effect.
So while I love to discuss things and toss around theories, it just seems
silly to do so when the writer himself never decided what the answers
would be.

- -Matthew


On Fri, 12 Sep 2003, Mike H. wrote:

> >Thanks for the repost... not sure I ever saw the original.
>
> This is technically the third posting, I remember putting it up again a
> previous time,
> because my original text set off Mr. Harris's email filters for smutty
> material.
> I had used the word "hard-core" minus of course the hyphen. Don't want to set
> off any
> filters again. If you wanted to see the original post, it's on the archives of
> this fan website.
>
> >Being an extraordinary picky person, I've made a few notes, comments, etc.
>
> Great, I like to sort out the little details with fellow fans, but people
> rarely do this
> for books other than the classics and the Bestsellers.
>
> >Actually, it's pretty clear Lady sent Shifter south in case her plan went
> >wrong, to prepare an escape route for her. Witness the large amount of
> >magical materials he turns over to her. Lady later sends Lisa as an
> >apprentice for Shifter, indicating that she knows where he is. Also, since
> >Stormbringer doesn't cut and run until AFTER Shifter heads south, he can't
> >have been in pursuit of her.
>
> That's probably the achille's heel of my little gibber about Shifter.
> ...I forgot some of the sequence of his actions before he killed Stormshadow.
> For some reason I can't recall much about him giving Lady any
> magical materials, I'd like to check that out. Where can I find that
> in the texts? Also, I have been under the impression that Shifter
> attacked Bringer on his own accord, but that's another spot I may have
> forgotten: his exact motives. Do you have any references for that part, too,
> because I wouldn't even know where to start looking.
>
> >The problem here is to determine what "several" means. Any number of the
> >Shadowmasters could have been from the same places as Longshadow and
> >Shadowspinner. It seems unlikely to me that "several" means "half."
>
> "Several" does not mean half; it means five in my theory. Remember :
> Stormshadow,
> Howler, Nightcrawler, Moonbiter, and the Faceless Man.
> Of course, several is even less likely to mean only "two", which of course
> would
> be Bringer and Howler who are the only ones we know for sure. So I highly doubt
> that "any number could have been from" Longshadow's land, because "any" could
> refer to 6, leaving only 2 who could be Taken. And again, "several" would only
> be used
> to describe 2 or even 3 out of 8 by someone who doesn't speak English as a
> first
> language, because several by definition refers to "more than two or three"
> and in common usage, at least every time I hear it, is mostly referring to a
> near majority.
> And if half were from the north, Doj would have said half. So, five is
> the magic number that makes the most sense imo.
>
> >In addition, I see no reason to believe that the Taken versus Taken battles
> >indicated in The Black Company weren't genuine. That suggests that one of
> >the two (Faceless/Moonbiter) was either genuinely killed, or had a genuine
> >feud with the other, making it unlikely they'd have evacuated
> >together. Moonbiter's tactics in combat seem to suggest a rather
> >straightforward mind, so I'd point to the Faceless Man as the likely
> >escapee. However, 'Catcher expected Moonshadow to be one of the Taken. So
> >the question is whether she expected that on the basis of the name, or for
> >more concrete reasons.
>
> The whole description of the end Taken-feuds in book 1 reeked of something
> fishy.
> No details were given, no bodies were mentioned, and the circumstances were
> just downright shady. It was a blind mess of flesh and monsters, and
> scheming super-mages who had the perfect opportunity to escape.
>
> >Nightcrawler, if lost to rebel action, may have been destroyed completely,
> >leaving no body to bury.
>
> That's possible. But the officials back at the Tower would have specified that
> Nightcrawler's
> remains were taken and had disappeared into the hands of the enemy. I say this
> because they
> were so thorough and honest in their documentation and reports to Otto and
> Hagop.
>
> >Is it clear that all of the present Shadowmasters were Shadowmasters when
> >the Gate went the first time? Moonshadow, for example, may have been a
> >lesser sorcerer who took the place of a Shadowmaster who was killed.
>
> That is entirely possible... just like my theory, because Glen doesn't specify
> the
> details. But I'm considering only characters who have already been introduced
> and who suddenly left the pages of the first novel. The theory you mentioned
> requires
> characters that are unknown, unseen, and entirely unmentioned. Imo, it's a case
> of Ockham's
> Razor. Both of our ideas are totally plausible but the one in my old post
> introduces no
> variables, and even accounts for the three mysteriously missing bodies of the
> Taken who could not be accounted for.
>
> Besides, the numbers work out perfectly. For my tidy package to work, of course
> we must assume that the 4 known Shadowmasters were present during the crisis,
> along with Howler though we know for sure he was there, but it's a logical and
> safe assumption.
> That leaves three unnamed wizards.
> It seems to me that Glen wrote the names of Biter, the Faceless, and
> Nightcrawler in
> Bleak Seasons as perfect possibilities for these three missing, yet now dead,
> wizards.
>
> >David
>
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>


**************************************************************************
*                                                                        *
* "It is good to find that one is in agreement with the gods."           *
* "Howso?"                                                               *
* "It shows that the gods are wise."                                     *
*                                                                        *
**************************************************************************


=======================================================================
 To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
 visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:48:52 -0500 (CDT)
From: Changeling <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Taken&Shadowmasters

One of the things that I've notcied about from some of the conversations
I've had with Glen and from the interviews that folks've posted here is
that Glen frequently left unanswered questions out there intentionally.
And that he doesn't necessarily know the answers himself until he needs
to.
Example: When asked about which of the Taken are male and which female he
has said "Oh, I don't know. It never really mattered." Or words to that
effect.
So while I love to discuss things and toss around theories, it just seems
silly to do so when the writer himself never decided what the answers
would be.

- -Matthew


On Fri, 12 Sep 2003, Mike H. wrote:

> >Thanks for the repost... not sure I ever saw the original.
>
> This is technically the third posting, I remember putting it up again a
> previous time,
> because my original text set off Mr. Harris's email filters for smutty
> material.
> I had used the word "hard-core" minus of course the hyphen. Don't want to set
> off any
> filters again. If you wanted to see the original post, it's on the archives of
> this fan website.
>
> >Being an extraordinary picky person, I've made a few notes, comments, etc.
>
> Great, I like to sort out the little details with fellow fans, but people
> rarely do this
> for books other than the classics and the Bestsellers.
>
> >Actually, it's pretty clear Lady sent Shifter south in case her plan went
> >wrong, to prepare an escape route for her. Witness the large amount of
> >magical materials he turns over to her. Lady later sends Lisa as an
> >apprentice for Shifter, indicating that she knows where he is. Also, since
> >Stormbringer doesn't cut and run until AFTER Shifter heads south, he can't
> >have been in pursuit of her.
>
> That's probably the achille's heel of my little gibber about Shifter.
> ...I forgot some of the sequence of his actions before he killed Stormshadow.
> For some reason I can't recall much about him giving Lady any
> magical materials, I'd like to check that out. Where can I find that
> in the texts? Also, I have been under the impression that Shifter
> attacked Bringer on his own accord, but that's another spot I may have
> forgotten: his exact motives. Do you have any references for that part, too,
> because I wouldn't even know where to start looking.
>
> >The problem here is to determine what "several" means. Any number of the
> >Shadowmasters could have been from the same places as Longshadow and
> >Shadowspinner. It seems unlikely to me that "several" means "half."
>
> "Several" does not mean half; it means five in my theory. Remember :
> Stormshadow,
> Howler, Nightcrawler, Moonbiter, and the Faceless Man.
> Of course, several is even less likely to mean only "two", which of course
> would
> be Bringer and Howler who are the only ones we know for sure. So I highly doubt
> that "any number could have been from" Longshadow's land, because "any" could
> refer to 6, leaving only 2 who could be Taken. And again, "several" would only
> be used
> to describe 2 or even 3 out of 8 by someone who doesn't speak English as a
> first
> language, because several by definition refers to "more than two or three"
> and in common usage, at least every time I hear it, is mostly referring to a
> near majority.
> And if half were from the north, Doj would have said half. So, five is
> the magic number that makes the most sense imo.
>
> >In addition, I see no reason to believe that the Taken versus Taken battles
> >indicated in The Black Company weren't genuine. That suggests that one of
> >the two (Faceless/Moonbiter) was either genuinely killed, or had a genuine
> >feud with the other, making it unlikely they'd have evacuated
> >together. Moonbiter's tactics in combat seem to suggest a rather
> >straightforward mind, so I'd point to the Faceless Man as the likely
> >escapee. However, 'Catcher expected Moonshadow to be one of the Taken. So
> >the question is whether she expected that on the basis of the name, or for
> >more concrete reasons.
>
> The whole description of the end Taken-feuds in book 1 reeked of something
> fishy.
> No details were given, no bodies were mentioned, and the circumstances were
> just downright shady. It was a blind mess of flesh and monsters, and
> scheming super-mages who had the perfect opportunity to escape.
>
> >Nightcrawler, if lost to rebel action, may have been destroyed completely,
> >leaving no body to bury.
>
> That's possible. But the officials back at the Tower would have specified that
> Nightcrawler's
> remains were taken and had disappeared into the hands of the enemy. I say this
> because they
> were so thorough and honest in their documentation and reports to Otto and
> Hagop.
>
> >Is it clear that all of the present Shadowmasters were Shadowmasters when
> >the Gate went the first time? Moonshadow, for example, may have been a
> >lesser sorcerer who took the place of a Shadowmaster who was killed.
>
> That is entirely possible... just like my theory, because Glen doesn't specify
> the
> details. But I'm considering only characters who have already been introduced
> and who suddenly left the pages of the first novel. The theory you mentioned
> requires
> characters that are unknown, unseen, and entirely unmentioned. Imo, it's a case
> of Ockham's
> Razor. Both of our ideas are totally plausible but the one in my old post
> introduces no
> variables, and even accounts for the three mysteriously missing bodies of the
> Taken who could not be accounted for.
>
> Besides, the numbers work out perfectly. For my tidy package to work, of course
> we must assume that the 4 known Shadowmasters were present during the crisis,
> along with Howler though we know for sure he was there, but it's a logical and
> safe assumption.
> That leaves three unnamed wizards.
> It seems to me that Glen wrote the names of Biter, the Faceless, and
> Nightcrawler in
> Bleak Seasons as perfect possibilities for these three missing, yet now dead,
> wizards.
>
> >David
>
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>


**************************************************************************
*                                                                        *
* "It is good to find that one is in agreement with the gods."           *
* "Howso?"                                                               *
* "It shows that the gods are wise."                                     *
*                                                                        *
**************************************************************************


=======================================================================
 To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
 visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 12:30:47 -0500
From: David Ainsworth <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Taken&Shadowmasters

At 08:30 PM 9/12/2003 -0400, Mike H. wrote:
>That's probably the achille's heel of my little gibber about Shifter.
>...I forgot some of the sequence of his actions before he killed Stormshadow.
>For some reason I can't recall much about him giving Lady any
>magical materials, I'd like to check that out. Where can I find that
>in the texts? Also, I have been under the impression that Shifter
>attacked Bringer on his own accord, but that's another spot I may have
>forgotten: his exact motives. Do you have any references for that part, too,
>because I wouldn't even know where to start looking.

Shifter attacked Bringer of his own accord, that was his plan, and Lady
knew nothing about Bringer's survival to judge by her reaction (Shadow
Games 286-7).  For the rest, see Chapter 19, especially the note about
Shifter's staff being with Lady's things.  IIRC she mentions sending
Shifter south after that.  I also seem to recall her mentioning trying
magic and failing after meeting up with him.

>"Several" does not mean half; it means five in my theory. Remember :
>Stormshadow,
>Howler, Nightcrawler, Moonbiter, and the Faceless Man.

The problem is that "several" doesn't mean ANYTHING specific.  If Glen
wanted to be specific, he'd have provided a number.  So at best it is
suggestive, but not proof.

>And if half were from the north, Doj would have said half. So, five is
>the magic number that makes the most sense imo.

Only if Glen wanted to be precise.  Saying "half" is the same as providing
a specific number.

>The whole description of the end Taken-feuds in book 1 reeked of something
>fishy.
>No details were given, no bodies were mentioned, and the circumstances were
>just downright shady. It was a blind mess of flesh and monsters, and
>scheming super-mages who had the perfect opportunity to escape.

Yes, but the only concrete evidence we have for such feuding in the books
suggests they were genuine and deadly.  Shifter and Bringer certainly do a
number on one another, and Catcher kills Moonshadow and THEN discovers to
her disappointment that he wasn't one of the Taken.

I seriously doubt that two Taken could have killed each other without help
from a third party, which is where the fishiness comes in.  But we have
confirmation that, for example, Stormbringer was able to kill
Bonegnasher.  Lady needed to believe these deaths were real--to do that
suggests one Taken settling a score with another and then fleeing.

I find it highly unlikely that two Taken who were feuding could be
compelled to work together again, much less join each other in this
Shadowmaster deal.  Ergo, one of Moonbiter and Faceless either died, or
escaped in a different direction.


> >Nightcrawler, if lost to rebel action, may have been destroyed completely,
> >leaving no body to bury.
>
>That's possible. But the officials back at the Tower would have specified
>that
>Nightcrawler's
>remains were taken and had disappeared into the hands of the enemy. I say
>this
>because they
>were so thorough and honest in their documentation and reports to Otto and
>Hagop.

To me, thorough and honest involves providing FACTS.  They cannot PROVE
that Nightcrawler was killed, since they have no access to remains.  So he
MIGHT not be dead.  That doesn't prove that he's alive, either.

> >Is it clear that all of the present Shadowmasters were Shadowmasters when
> >the Gate went the first time? Moonshadow, for example, may have been a
> >lesser sorcerer who took the place of a Shadowmaster who was killed.
>
>That is entirely possible... just like my theory, because Glen doesn't
>specify
>the
>details. But I'm considering only characters who have already been introduced
>and who suddenly left the pages of the first novel. The theory you mentioned
>requires
>characters that are unknown, unseen, and entirely unmentioned. Imo, it's a
>case
>of Ockham's
>Razor. Both of our ideas are totally plausible but the one in my old post
>introduces no
>variables, and even accounts for the three mysteriously missing bodies of the
>Taken who could not be accounted for.

Well, in my mind, Occum's Razor suggests that NONE of the other
Shadowmasters were Taken, because we have absolutely no conclusive evidence
either way about the remaining Taken, and we have conclusive evidence that
many of those working with Longshadow came with him.  Given how paranoid he
is, I see him as being unlikely to work with a large number of powerful
sorcerers, all of whom know each other and seem reasonably chummy, and all
of whom are unknown to him.

The simple answer as I see it is that there is no way to determine one way
or the other.  The only way to prove your assertions would be for someone
who knew for certain to name the dead Shadowmasters; the only way to
disprove it would be to account for these Taken in some other way.

>It seems to me that Glen wrote the names of Biter, the Faceless, and
>Nightcrawler in
>Bleak Seasons as perfect possibilities for these three missing, yet now dead,
>wizards.

I guess one of the things I like best about Glen's writing is that he's
willing to leave the sorts of messy loose ends which always appear in real
life and so rarely in literature.  The strongest reason I have to reject
your theory is that it seems to work out perfectly in just the sort of way
that things don't work out in Glen's books, and without the sort of "best
fit" in terms of the fiction.  I'd prefer to read this as an indeterminate
possibility.  Might be, might not, and we'll probably never know.  I like
it better that way, myself...

David


=======================================================================
 To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
 visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.

------------------------------

End of glencook-fans-digest V1 #264
***********************************

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 visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.