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From: owner-glencook-fans-digest@lists.xmission.com (glencook-fans-digest) To: glencook-fans-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: glencook-fans-digest V1 #225 Reply-To: glencook-fans-digest Sender: owner-glencook-fans-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-glencook-fans-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk glencook-fans-digest Friday, November 1 2002 Volume 01 : Number 225 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 13:59:30 -0600 From: Pete Flugstad <pete_flugstad@icon-labs.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Back on Cook Primalchrome wrote: > Anyone else read "Daughter of the Empire" by Feist? It's about the > political/military struggles of a kneecapped house in an feudal > oriental society. (ala Riftwar) Somehow I think the Lady would > display even more guile and maneuvering.... Yes, I loved that book. The Lady would put that girl to shame, but then I'm a bit biased towards the BC world :-). Pete ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 12:06:58 -0800 (PST) From: Mike Koshel <mkoshel@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Back on Cook Totally agree with you on the Feist "Empire" series. Too bad he only had a couple more good books left in him after he wrote that series. The scheming was incredible, I just re-read a couple of years ago and absolutely loved it. Plus, ditto/drool on the Lady series. Anyone else on the thread checked out the Malazan series by Steven Erikson yet. Absolutely incredible stuff. I'm just finishing book 2 and eagerly awaiting book 3 which should be available in Canada soon. He lists Glen Cook as a big influence. It's nice to see that G.R.R.Martin is not the only one who can do big book fantasy properly. Mike - --- Primalchrome <primalchrome@bellsouth.net> wrote: > the Silver Spike covered the release of the Lady and > the 10, and a book detailing her take over control > of the area and the birth of her new Empire would be > great as well... > > >drool< Oh man, now THAT would be a good one. > > Anyone else read "Daughter of the Empire" by Feist? > It's about the political/military struggles of a > kneecapped house in an feudal oriental society. > (ala Riftwar) Somehow I think the Lady would > display even more guile and maneuvering.... > > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:11:38 EST From: Axemaster2001@aol.com Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) - --part1_15c.164ed6a2.2af439fa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/1/02 2:56:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, primalchrome@bellsouth.net writes: > so I'm nixing any participation in it. mmm you were the only one participating in it. ill play alone in the sandbox now that youve taken your toys home... <A HREF="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=54179">Axemaster</A> 61 Cleric <A HREF="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=54306">Lilaxe</A> 58 Warrior - --part1_15c.164ed6a2.2af439fa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML>In a message dated 11/1/02 2:56:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, primalchrome@bellsouth.net writes: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">so I'm nixing any participation in it. </BLOCKQUOTE> mmm you were the only one participating in it. ill play alone in the sandbox now that youve taken your toys home... <A HREF="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=54179">Axemaster</A> 61 Cleric <A HREF="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=54306">Lilaxe</A> 58 Warrior </HTML> - --part1_15c.164ed6a2.2af439fa_boundary-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:11:59 -0500 (EST) From: schew@interzone.com (Steve Chew) Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Erikson > >Plus, ditto/drool on the Lady series. Anyone else on >the thread checked out the Malazan series by Steven >Erikson yet. Absolutely incredible stuff. I'm just >finishing book 2 and eagerly awaiting book 3 which >should be available in Canada soon. He lists Glen Cook >as a big influence. It's nice to see that G.R.R.Martin >is not the only one who can do big book fantasy >properly. > I've ordered the first Malazan book, Gardens of the Moon, from Amazon but it apparently has to be special-ordered. Hopefully I'll get it in a couple weeks. One of the reviewers there said that the books aren't available in the US yet for some reason. Steve ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:14:28 EST From: Axemaster2001@aol.com Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Back on Cook - --part1_70.259be6d2.2af43aa4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i read Feist a long long long time ago, when it first came out. enjoyed it a lot, but felt the follow up books just didnt do the initial story justice... kinda like Dune, the follow up stopped me reading the whole series <A HREF="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=54179">Axemaster</A> 61 Cleric <A HREF="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=54306">Lilaxe</A> 58 Warrior - --part1_70.259be6d2.2af43aa4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML>i read Feist a long long long time ago, when it first came out. enjoyed it a lot, but felt the follow up books just didnt do the initial story justice... kinda like Dune, the follow up stopped me reading the whole series <A HREF="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=54179">Axemaster</A> 61 Cleric <A HREF="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=54306">Lilaxe</A> 58 Warrior </HTML> - --part1_70.259be6d2.2af43aa4_boundary-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 12:19:32 -0800 (PST) From: Mike Koshel <mkoshel@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Erikson You might want to try ordering from Amazon.ca or Chapters.Indigo.ca. They both ship from Canada but have access to all the books published in the U.K.. I'm not sure what the shipping costs will be like but I don't think they should be too bad. Plus, they have Books 1 and 2 available immediately in paperback with 3 available by January at the latest. My understanding, (from quotes by Erikson himself) for the lack of an American publisher is that the U.S. publishers feel the series is too complicated for U.S. readers. What a load a crap. Anyone interested in finding out more about this series might want to check out www.malazanempire.com Mike - --- Steve Chew <schew@interzone.com> wrote: > > > >Plus, ditto/drool on the Lady series. Anyone else > on > >the thread checked out the Malazan series by Steven > >Erikson yet. Absolutely incredible stuff. I'm just > >finishing book 2 and eagerly awaiting book 3 which > >should be available in Canada soon. He lists Glen > Cook > >as a big influence. It's nice to see that > G.R.R.Martin > >is not the only one who can do big book fantasy > >properly. > > > > I've ordered the first Malazan book, Gardens of the > Moon, from Amazon > but it apparently has to be special-ordered. > Hopefully I'll get it in a > couple weeks. One of the reviewers there said that > the books aren't > available in the US yet for some reason. > > Steve > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives > of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 23:07:01 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ram=F3n=20Pe=F1a?= <kunimon@wanadoo.es> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) New BC books... Steve Chew wrote: > On a different note, one of the things that I didn't like that > well from the Glittering Stone books was how much Cook took advantage of > Smoke and then Murgen to float around, viewing what's happening all over > the world. It was a convenient tool for Sleepy and the rest of the BC > of course, but it was almost *too* convenient in my opinion. I think > it reduced tension since the BC could almost always anticipate what was > going to happen next. I prefered it when they had to work out what to > do without foreknowledge of the number of troops, their locations, etc. > If I remember correctly, Cook got away from this technique in > the last book or two and that may be part of why I preferred those books > to the earlier Glittering Stone books. Did anyone else have that problem > with the GS books? Not really. I think that the Smoke/Murgen floating was mostly there to allow Cook to tell bits of the story which otherwise couldn't have been properly "chronicled", and I think the device worked very well. The foreknowledge gained with it was secondary. If it was not the floating, you'd have had spies, or traitors to get exactly the same result. - -Ramon ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:35:38 -0700 From: Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) New BC books... > Not really. I think that the Smoke/Murgen floating was mostly there to > allow Cook to tell bits of the story which otherwise couldn't have been > properly "chronicled", and I think the device worked very well. The > foreknowledge gained with it was secondary. If it was not the floating, > you'd have had spies, or traitors to get exactly the same result. I disagree. One of Glen's signature styles is the telling of the whole story from all points of view. He employs it with Dread Empire, Dragon Never Sleeps, and Black Company. (I guess the style really wouldn't work well with Garrett.) But usually he just tells the story first person from the other viewpoints. This would be the only time he has relied upon a device to do so that I can think of. I think the Smoke/Murgen effect was actually used as a device for divining knowledge about the Plain than for chronicling or strategic/tactical/spying info. - -- Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com> ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:02:32 -0800 From: Grey Lowell <glowell@flash.net> Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) whoa, i check my email today and i find more than 30 emails since my last post. which would be a good thing if it had managed to focus on Cook, and not degenerated into bickering... anyway, i apologize for all this. i'm not a terribly clear email writer in the best of times, i often manage to put things the wrong way in some fashion or another, and my last missive was no exception. my only excuse was that i was in dredging the last reservoirs of my laptop's battery and didn't take the time required to make myself or my question clear. but enough about me. this was supposed to be about Cook. so, spoiler warning... as this original Kali thread pointed out Cook's various settings bare many similarities to actual (or mythological) world settings or events. Kina is Kali, the characters in Shadowline are the Norse gods, that the white rose was a resistance movement have all been mentioned recently. even more extreme is the (what i took to be) handling of the creation of Islam in his Dread Empire Series (The Fire in His Hands & With Mercy to None). in that last case, the entire religion is fundamentally a con perpetrated upon those who want to believe. He makes it clear that El Murid (perhaps the most deceived and faithful) compromises his religious teachings for what is convenient or expedient at the time. the theme of religion as a con is played again in Petty Pewter Gods where it is the so-called gods (actually inter-dimensional refugees) are actually drawing strength from their worshippers, in a turn about from the traditional way these things are supposed to work. i didn't want to make this a discussion of our real world core beliefs, but inside the worlds of Glen Cook, from the perspective of his characters, what role does religion have? all but a few of his heroic characters seem to be cynical about it (exceptions might include Sleepy, Playmate, some people from in Tower of Fear) and in a world where gods are generally just really bad-ass sorcerors or something (Swordbearer, Black Company, etc.) why does there still exist a fundamental need or want to believe in them? appease them perhaps but what else is involved? anyway since i tend to be bad at drawing parallels and my spiritual side is um, over-intellectualized?, i wondered if someone with a different background or perspective had come away with something more in Glen Cook's works that i had missed. i have an impression on how i think Glen Cook's philosophy on religion was demonstrated but perhaps it meshes too well with how i think of things, so i wondered if there were other ways to read it than i had. does that make it clearer Derrill Kisc? i know i have difficulty expressing what i'm getting at, but was a question that had bugged me occasionally when reading Glen Cook... especially for the El Murid books, possibly since those deal with a monotheistic belief system rather than clashing polytheistic menageries which aren't very like the prevalent religions in his readers' areas... On Thursday, Oct 31, 2002, at 03:12 US/Pacific, Kisc Kempson wrote: > I'm not sure what you're asking. > > You see, as a man with religious convictions, I have a difficult time > answering other than: any attempt to rationalize the human reliance on > religion is misguided. There is a God. We must learn to rely on Him. > > There are a lot of people who bury themselves (or are buried by > others) in > rhetoric and zeal, and pull their convictions so far from anything to > do > with today's reality. > > There are a ton of people who are waiting to take advantage of whoever > they > can... some people are too trusting, too blind of faith. > > I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, aka > the > Mormons. I very strongly believe that what I'm taught is as correct as > it > gets, on Earth. However, I've been overheard to say, from time to > time, "I > would enjoy church a lot more if it wasn't for all the damn Mormons." > Some > people go to church for the wrong reason; some people go to church for > the > right reasons, but don't live their convictions in any meaningful way. > Some > people -- me, for instance -- are closet misanthropes and couldn't be > pleased even if you put a cherry on top. > > (Most of us, of course, have every one of these flaws in greater or > lesser > degrees. People often get categorized by what you see them doing when > you're > in a bad mood.) > > All of these (and many other) sorts of things lead to people who don't > believe in a deity at all. If, for extreme example, Father Clemente > raped > you when you were a teenager, then anything he says he believes must be > absolute crap. > > Folks who don't believe in deity at all would be the folks who would > need to > rationalize humanity's reliance on religion. > > Folks who believe in deity would answer similarly to me: Well, He's > there, > isn't He? What's to rationalize? Humanity is drawn by an inbuilt > tendency to > search for the Creator. A very polite "duh" would seem the best answer > here > :) > > So... Uhm... can you clarify a little bit what you are asking? I rather > suspect that my answer has nothing to do with the question you asked, > as > opposed to the question I read. > > Derrill ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 00:09:49 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ram=F3n=20Pe=F1a?= <kunimon@wanadoo.es> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) New BC books... Eric Herrmann wrote: > > > Not really. I think that the Smoke/Murgen floating was mostly there to > > allow Cook to tell bits of the story which otherwise couldn't have been > > properly "chronicled", and I think the device worked very well. The > > foreknowledge gained with it was secondary. If it was not the floating, > > you'd have had spies, or traitors to get exactly the same result. > > I disagree. > > One of Glen's signature styles is the telling of the whole story from > all points of view. He employs it with Dread Empire, Dragon Never > Sleeps, and Black Company. (I guess the style really wouldn't work well > with Garrett.) But usually he just tells the story first person from > the other viewpoints. This would be the only time he has relied upon a > device to do so that I can think of. I don't remember right now how he did it exactly in the older BC books (it has been a long time since I read them) but the conflict the Company finds itself in the books of the North was mostly two sided, while in the South they find themselves in one way more complex and multisided. If Cook wanted to present that conflict *and* preserving the one-person's chronicle feel of the BC at the same time, he needed a such device. Perhaps not necesarily this one exactly, OK. But for me is clear that for the story he wanted to tell he'd have needed an omniscent narrator point of view, not the tunnel vision of the older BC books, so the floating Murgen was a device that let him do both things at once. Not that I think it was a bad thing, quite to the contrary. - -Ramon > > I think the Smoke/Murgen effect was actually used as a device for > divining knowledge about the Plain than for chronicling or > strategic/tactical/spying info. > > -- > Eric Herrmann > <shpshftr@xmission.com> > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 18:55:55 -0500 From: Stacey Harris <harrissg@SLU.EDU> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) New BC books... Steve, I have to agree with you, from an aesthetic point of view: The all-seeing eye was an over-reach for the drama. Steve/Stacey ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 18:23:45 -0600 From: "Jordan Raney" <jrraney@attbi.com> Subject: RE: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C281D3.D07227E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>I joined this list because it was about Glen Cooks books and novels<< Then talk about them. Not your beliefs. Again, no one cares. -----Original Message----- From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Axemaster2001@aol.com Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 12:02 PM To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) >> Sounds like a double standard to me, Igor. As far as I know, religious belief or lack thereof has never been a determining factor in the overall intelligence or strength of a person. Spouting ill-conceived opinion for no other reason than to insult a fair percentage of the world population does, however, speak volumes about the person's stability and maturity. This is just as true for someone like Pat Buchanan, the Pope, or Axemaster, the AOL user. << "ill-conceived opinion" - "insult a fair percentage of the world population" Why is my opinon ill-conceived. It is my opinion. I never once told Derril his opinion was wrong, he stated his, quoted below, (in the off-topic post that started all this). Why is this a double standard? Or are you referring to the person who attacked me and claimed I must also be a democrat, and then someone said "oh dont make this about politics too, im gonna unsubscribe"? I dont care who you worship, how you worship or what you worship. What worries me though is that some of you who do worship something are so insulted, so threatened, so perturbed by those who have a differing opinion. To say my "stability and maturity" also revolve around my adherence to your beliefs speaks volumes to me. I joined this list because it was about Glen Cooks books and novels. Most of these books are fantasy and science fiction based. In the fantasy novels alternate gods, demi-gods, mythological religons and more are everyday events. Someone brought up the close similarities of the Books of South religious structure and how close it tied into the real world Hindu and South-East Asian religons. From that someone else stated: <<Folks who don't believe in deity at all would be the folks who would need to rationalize humanity's reliance on religion. >> - from Derrills email Which lead to my email. I had thought I was on a list of like minded Cook fans, and in my (normal) experience fantasy and sci-fi fans are a little more open minded. I guess I was wrong. Derrils full post: >>> I'm not sure what you're asking. You see, as a man with religious convictions, I have a difficult time answering other than: any attempt to rationalize the human reliance on religion is misguided. There is a God. We must learn to rely on Him. There are a lot of people who bury themselves (or are buried by others) in rhetoric and zeal, and pull their convictions so far from anything to do with today's reality. There are a ton of people who are waiting to take advantage of whoever they can... some people are too trusting, too blind of faith. I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, aka the Mormons. I very strongly believe that what I'm taught is as correct as it gets, on Earth. However, I've been overheard to say, from time to time, "I would enjoy church a lot more if it wasn't for all the damn Mormons." Some people go to church for the wrong reason; some people go to church for the right reasons, but don't live their convictions in any meaningful way. Some people -- me, for instance -- are closet misanthropes and couldn't be pleased even if you put a cherry on top. (Most of us, of course, have every one of these flaws in greater or lesser degrees. People often get categorized by what you see them doing when you're in a ba mood.) All of these (and many other) sorts of things lead to people who don't believe in a deity at all. If, for extreme example, Father Clemente raped you when you were a teenager, then anything he says he believes must be absolute crap. Folks who don't believe in deity at all would be the folks who would need to rationalize humanity's reliance on religion. Folks who believe in deity would answer similarly to me: Well, He's there, isn't He? What's to rationalize? Humanity is drawn by an inbuilt tendency to search for the Creator. A very polite "duh" would seem the best answer here :) So... Uhm... can you clarify a little bit what you are asking? I rather suspect that my answer has nothing to do with the question you asked, as opposed to the question I read. Derrill - ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C281D3.D07227E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV>>>I joined this list because it was = about Glen=20 Cooks books and novels<<</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then = talk about=20 them. Not your beliefs. Again, no one = cares.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>-----Original Message----- From:=20 owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com=20 [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of=20 Axemaster2001@aol.com Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 = 12:02=20 PM To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com Subject: = Re:=20 Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu=20 Mythology) </DIV> >> Sounds = like a double=20 standard to me, Igor. As far as I know, religious belief or = lack=20 thereof has never been a determining factor in the overall = intelligence or=20 strength of a person. Spouting ill-conceived opinion for no other = reason=20 than to insult a fair percentage of the world population does, = however,=20 speak volumes about the person's stability and maturity. This = is just=20 as true for someone like Pat Buchanan, the Pope, or Axemaster, the = AOL=20 user. << "ill-conceived opinion" - "insult a fair = percentage=20 of the world population" Why is my opinon ill-conceived. It is = my=20 opinion. I never once told Derril his opinion was wrong, he stated = his, quoted=20 below, (in the off-topic post that started all this). Why is = this a=20 double standard? Or are you referring to the person who attacked me = and=20 claimed I must also be a democrat, and then someone said "oh dont make = this=20 about politics too, im gonna unsubscribe"? I dont care who you = worship, how you worship or what you worship. What worries me though = is that=20 some of you who do worship something are so insulted, so threatened, = so=20 perturbed by those who have a differing opinion. To say my = "stability=20 and maturity" also revolve around my adherence to your beliefs speaks = volumes=20 to me. I joined this list because it was about Glen Cooks = books and=20 novels. Most of these books are fantasy and science fiction based. In = the=20 fantasy novels alternate gods, demi-gods, mythological religons and = more are=20 everyday events. Someone brought up the close similarities of the = Books of=20 South religious structure and how close it tied into the real world = Hindu and=20 South-East Asian religons. From that someone else stated:=20 <<Folks who don't believe in deity at all would be the = folks who=20 would need to rationalize humanity's reliance on = religion. >> -=20 from Derrills email Which lead to my email. I had = thought I was=20 on a list of like minded Cook fans, and in my (normal) experience = fantasy and=20 sci-fi fans are a little more open minded. I guess I was=20 wrong. Derrils full post: >>> I'm not = sure what=20 you're asking. You see, as a man with religious convictions, I have = a=20 difficult time answering other than: any attempt to rationalize the = human=20 reliance on religion is misguided. There is a God. We must learn to = rely on=20 Him. There are a lot of people who bury themselves (or are buried = by=20 others) in rhetoric and zeal, and pull their convictions so far = from=20 anything to do with today's reality. There are a ton of people = who are=20 waiting to take advantage of whoever they can... some people are = too=20 trusting, too blind of faith. I'm a member of the Church of Jesus = Christ of=20 Latter Day Saints, aka the Mormons. I very strongly believe that = what I'm=20 taught is as correct as it gets, on Earth. However, I've been = overheard to=20 say, from time to time, "I would enjoy church a lot more if it = wasn't for=20 all the damn Mormons." Some people go to church for the wrong = reason; some=20 people go to church for the right reasons, but don't live their = convictions=20 in any meaningful way. Some people -- me, for instance -- are = closet=20 misanthropes and couldn't be pleased even if you put a cherry on=20 top. (Most of us, of course, have every one of these flaws in = greater or=20 lesser degrees. People often get categorized by what you see them = doing=20 when you're in a ba mood.) All of these (and many other) sorts = of things=20 lead to people who don't believe in a deity at all. If, for extreme = example, Father Clemente raped you when you were a teenager, then = anything=20 he says he believes must be absolute crap. Folks who don't = believe in=20 deity at all would be the folks who would need to rationalize = humanity's=20 reliance on religion. Folks who believe in deity would answer = similarly to=20 me: Well, He's there, isn't He? What's to rationalize? Humanity is = drawn by=20 an inbuilt tendency to search for the Creator. A very polite "duh" = would=20 seem the best answer here :) So... Uhm... can you clarify a = little bit=20 what you are asking? I rather suspect that my answer has nothing to = do with=20 the question you asked, as opposed to the question I=20 = read. Derrill </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>= - ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C281D3.D07227E0-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 17:55:42 -0700 From: "Derrill \"Kisc\" Guilbert" <NinjaSpam2@InsaneNinjaHero.com> Subject: RE: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Oh yeah, that is much clearer. As you can probably tell, I thought you were asking for a tie in to real life. The only thing I can say for sure in this regard is that Mr. Cook tends to base his stories as much on reality as possible. As has been said numerous times, the more reality that your readers will recognize that you can put in a book, the more real it will seem to them. As everyone knows, most of the people in the real world either believe in deity(s) or are searching for such. There has to be a reason for this... whether it is because there is a God that our souls are reaching for or because we're just trying to explain a complex and often contrary world is a non-issue here. People ARE searching for a reason why they are alive, a creator, something. Putting that into books seems to add that bit of reality to it, I suppose. Offhand, I would suppose that a book where there the people have no interest in a search for creator would be nearly as unreal as Douglas Adams' Krikketers. This was a people who lived deep in a nebula, and were completely unaware of the rest of the galaxy until one day they discovered space travel and, upon seeing the mass of stars outside their nebula, promptly said "It'll have to go." Adams describes them carefully. They never looked up at the sky. There was nothing to see. I can't do the description justice, but it is completely unreal. I would like to suggest further that most of the characters in Cook's books don't seem (to me) to be saying "there is no god" so much as they are saying "that there is no god". I could be wrong, easily, but I never got them impression of confidence in any of their atheism... mostly I got the impression of confidence that "this f-er before me is no god, and I've got other things to worry about than deciding if there is a god that matters". Most of the main characters in Mr. Cook's books seem to be less than totally philosophical. Derrill |-----Original Message----- |From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com |[mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Grey Lowell |Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 4:03 PM |To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com |Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu |Mythology) | | | | |whoa, i check my email today and i find more than 30 emails since my |last post. which would be |a good thing if it had managed to focus on Cook, and not degenerated |into bickering... anyway, |i apologize for all this. i'm not a terribly clear email writer in the |best of times, i often manage to |put things the wrong way in some fashion or another, and my last |missive was no exception. my |only excuse was that i was in dredging the last reservoirs of my |laptop's battery and didn't take the |time required to make myself or my question clear. | |but enough about me. this was supposed to be about Cook. so, spoiler |warning... | | | | | | | | |as this original Kali thread pointed out Cook's various settings bare |many similarities to actual (or |mythological) world settings or events. Kina is Kali, the characters in |Shadowline are the Norse |gods, that the white rose was a resistance movement have all been |mentioned recently. even more |extreme is the (what i took to be) handling of the creation of Islam in |his Dread Empire Series (The |Fire in His Hands & With Mercy to None). in that last case, the entire |religion is fundamentally a con |perpetrated upon those who want to believe. He makes it clear that El |Murid (perhaps the most |deceived and faithful) compromises his religious teachings for what is |convenient or expedient at |the time. the theme of religion as a con is played again in Petty |Pewter Gods where it is the so-called |gods (actually inter-dimensional refugees) are actually drawing |strength from their worshippers, in a |turn about from the traditional way these things are supposed to work. | |i didn't want to make this a discussion of our real world core beliefs, |but inside the worlds of Glen Cook, |from the perspective of his characters, what role does religion have? |all but a few of his heroic characters |seem to be cynical about it (exceptions might include Sleepy, Playmate, |some people from in Tower of Fear) |and in a world where gods are generally just really bad-ass sorcerors |or something (Swordbearer, Black |Company, etc.) why does there still exist a fundamental need or want to |believe in them? appease them |perhaps but what else is involved? | |anyway since i tend to be bad at drawing parallels and my spiritual |side is um, over-intellectualized?, i |wondered if someone with a different background or perspective had come |away with something more |in Glen Cook's works that i had missed. i have an impression on how i |think Glen Cook's philosophy on |religion was demonstrated but perhaps it meshes too well with how i |think of things, so i wondered if there |were other ways to read it than i had. | |does that make it clearer Derrill Kisc? i know i have difficulty |expressing what i'm getting at, but was a |question that had bugged me occasionally when reading Glen Cook... |especially for the El Murid books, |possibly since those deal with a monotheistic belief system rather than |clashing polytheistic menageries |which aren't very like the prevalent religions in his readers' areas... | |On Thursday, Oct 31, 2002, at 03:12 US/Pacific, Kisc Kempson wrote: | |> I'm not sure what you're asking. |> |> You see, as a man with religious convictions, I have a difficult time |> answering other than: any attempt to rationalize the human reliance on |> religion is misguided. There is a God. We must learn to rely on Him. |> |> There are a lot of people who bury themselves (or are buried by |> others) in |> rhetoric and zeal, and pull their convictions so far from anything to |> do |> with today's reality. |> |> There are a ton of people who are waiting to take advantage of whoever |> they |> can... some people are too trusting, too blind of faith. |> |> I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, aka |> the |> Mormons. I very strongly believe that what I'm taught is as correct as |> it |> gets, on Earth. However, I've been overheard to say, from time to |> time, "I |> would enjoy church a lot more if it wasn't for all the damn Mormons." |> Some |> people go to church for the wrong reason; some people go to church for |> the |> right reasons, but don't live their convictions in any meaningful way. |> Some |> people -- me, for instance -- are closet misanthropes and couldn't be |> pleased even if you put a cherry on top. |> |> (Most of us, of course, have every one of these flaws in greater or |> lesser |> degrees. People often get categorized by what you see them doing when |> you're |> in a bad mood.) |> |> All of these (and many other) sorts of things lead to people who don't |> believe in a deity at all. If, for extreme example, Father Clemente |> raped |> you when you were a teenager, then anything he says he believes must be |> absolute crap. |> |> Folks who don't believe in deity at all would be the folks who would |> need to |> rationalize humanity's reliance on religion. |> |> Folks who believe in deity would answer similarly to me: Well, He's |> there, |> isn't He? What's to rationalize? Humanity is drawn by an inbuilt |> tendency to |> search for the Creator. A very polite "duh" would seem the best answer |> here |> :) |> |> So... Uhm... can you clarify a little bit what you are asking? I rather |> suspect that my answer has nothing to do with the question you asked, |> as |> opposed to the question I read. |> |> Derrill | | |======================================================================= | To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, | visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. | ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------ End of glencook-fans-digest V1 #225 *********************************** ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.