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glencook-fans-digest    Thursday, October 31 2002    Volume 01 : Number 221




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 21:54:51 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali

Steve: "The only thing that occurs to me (besides Prometheus--good call on
that)
is Atlas.  What I'm thinking of here is the time that Atlas got Hercules
to take the burden of holding the world off his shoulders for a while
(at least, I think that's part of Greek mythology)[...]"

Spoiler for "Soldiers Live"









This fits the story, but with a little change: other myths say that Perseus
returned to Atlas and showed him the head of Medusa, turning him to stone.
Perhaps Cook had this in mind when he wrote the ending of SL? There is
another myth which states that Atlas was relieved of his labor, and instead
was later just commanded to oversee a bunch of pillars which held up the sky.
(Greek myths aren't known for their organizational or chronological
qualities).
I guess none of those fit perfectly. Unless there are any other possible
connections, it seems the ending of SL was more original than we thought?

- -Welly

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 03:47:48 -0500 (EST)
From: [e-mail] (Steve Chew)
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali

    Kina and the deceivers definitely seem based on Kali and the Thugs
to me.  I like what Cook does with it.  And it's nice to have a somewhat
different perspective beyond the often used Arthurian mythos.  "Great
authors steal" after all.  :)


>
>Does the big guy in the middle of the plain suggest any Terran deity to
>anyone? There isn't anything that I remember hearing of, but a deity that is
>stuck and just remembers seems pretty straightforward to me... would take
>far less imagination, I'd think, than Prometheus, for instance.
>

    That's an interesting question.  Vishnu is the "preserver" but the
descriptions of him don't mention memory.  I thought that Mimir might fit
the bill, but he turned out to be more in the line of handing out wisdom,
not retaining memories.  I haven't found any other mythical figures that
are very close yet.
    BTW, while looking up Mimir in the Norse mythology I came across
Odin's ravens Hugin and Munin who scoured the land gathering information
for Odin.  Sound familiar?  ;-)

                Steve


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 01:36:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Robo Tchas <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology

Someone said "Shiva the Creator, Vishnu the Preserver,
Kali the Destroyer" -

Actually, it's Brahma the Creator, Vishnu the
Preserver, and Shiva the Destroyer. Shiva isn't
necessarily evil, he's more a force of change. Kali is
sort of the consort or female counterpart of Shiva,
and definitely the basis for Kina.

I really liked the fact that it was hard to tie any of
the cultures in the Books of the North to any specific
Earth culture (well, Forsberger is sorta Germanic and
the Jewel Cities somewhat Levantine), thanks to the
use of plain English instead of the usual
faux-European (esp. faux-Tolkien) or faux-Klingon (ie
completely made up) nomenclature. A soft-headed friend
of mine complained about this very fact, but I read it
as if all the names had been translated into English
with their actual meanings wherever there was
one...clever and actually very distinctive (Los
Angeles means something too you know). That said, it
was also cool to see someone using Southeast Asian
culture (Taglios = New Delhi, Nyueng Bao = Vietnamese,
etc.) and using it well. Cook's interest in other
cultures is one of the assets that makes him such a
great writer.


And as a side note, could people turn off any
HTML/MIME/Microsoft garbage that adds fancy things to
your email? It all shows up as Sanskrit for those of
us sticking to text. Thanks.

__________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:13:42 +0000 (GMT)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Fraser=20Ronald?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali

 --- Kisc Kempson <[e-mail]>
wrote: > When I say "generic" in this context, I'm
trying to
> say that every mythology
> that I know anything about has a death deity, and
> they are often rather
> blood-thirsty. A skull necklace seems like a pretty
> standard accoutrement
> for a blood-thirsty deity as well, regardless of
> their sphere of influence.
>

The question then becomes, why are skull necklaces
pretty standard accoutrements for blood-thirsty
deities? Think of the other death deities that most
western-educated people would know. Hades/Pluto didn't
have a necklace of skulls, neither did the Norse Hel.
What of other 'death' deities? The Celts, by and
large, had no such deity to my knowledge (at least,
not a real one. Samhain and Bile/Beli were put forth
in the 19c as Celtic death gods, but most literature
now indicates they were not).

I think, based on the description of Kina and
especially the Deceivers (the Thugees were also called
the Deceivers), we can assume that Mr. Cook used Kali
as his template for creating his own death goddess.

But that's just my two cents.

=====
Fraser Ronald
"Sword's Edge" (http://www.swordsedge.net/)
AtFantasy Alliance Fiction Archive (http://www.atfantasy.com/fiction)

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:55:16 -0600
From: "Navin Javvaji" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology

I don't necessaryily want to correct anyone on Hindu mythology but here are
my two cents.

The writer below is correct in stating that the trinity in the Hindu religon
is made up of Brahma (the creator), Vishnu (the perserver), and Shiva (the
destroyer).

According to the Hindu religon:

Shiva's father-in-law (because Shiva married a mortal) held a religous
ceremony without inviting Shiva or his wife.  His wife (Parvati) assumed
that she was automatically invited because it was still her parents house so
she went.  Upon her arrival to house, her father proceeded to verbally abuse
and shame in front of all of the guests.  Parvati, unable to stand the
humiliation, committed suicide on the spot by burning herself alive.

Shiva was informed of this and in his anger tore out a bunch of his hair and
smashed it against the ground causing it break into two pieces.  One piece
became Kali and the other piece became Yama (the God of Death).  These two
gods lead Shiva's army against all that stood by and watched his wife kill
herself.

This is probably a bit more than you wanted to know about the Hindu
Religion, but I thought I should set the record straight.


- ----Original Message Follows----
From: Robo Tchas <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]
Subject: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 01:36:54 -0800 (PST)

Someone said "Shiva the Creator, Vishnu the Preserver,
Kali the Destroyer" -

Actually, it's Brahma the Creator, Vishnu the
Preserver, and Shiva the Destroyer. Shiva isn't
necessarily evil, he's more a force of change. Kali is
sort of the consort or female counterpart of Shiva,
and definitely the basis for Kina.

I really liked the fact that it was hard to tie any of
the cultures in the Books of the North to any specific
Earth culture (well, Forsberger is sorta Germanic and
the Jewel Cities somewhat Levantine), thanks to the
use of plain English instead of the usual
faux-European (esp. faux-Tolkien) or faux-Klingon (ie
completely made up) nomenclature. A soft-headed friend
of mine complained about this very fact, but I read it
as if all the names had been translated into English
with their actual meanings wherever there was
one...clever and actually very distinctive (Los
Angeles means something too you know). That said, it
was also cool to see someone using Southeast Asian
culture (Taglios = New Delhi, Nyueng Bao = Vietnamese,
etc.) and using it well. Cook's interest in other
cultures is one of the assets that makes him such a
great writer.


And as a side note, could people turn off any
HTML/MIME/Microsoft garbage that adds fancy things to
your email? It all shows up as Sanskrit for those of
us sticking to text. Thanks.

__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 10:19:03 -0600
From: Stacey Harris <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology

Robo,

Thanks for the correction on Brahma/Shiva.

"It all shows up as Sanskrit for those of
us sticking to text."

Just more South Asian influence?

Steve


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 10:55:13 -0700
From: "Derrill \"Kisc\" Guilbert" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali

Ok, now you're taking me far too seriously. Didn't you people read the FAQ?
I'm sure there must be an entry regarding taking me seriously.

I don't doubt that Cook used Kali et al as the blueprint.

I think I was trying to justify something or other ... I still say that, in
D&D at least, death deitys tend to wear skulls ... maybe I'm getting my
fantasy mythology mixed up with my real mythology.

I thought Samhain had something to do with vodoo or something.

The Celts didn't have like a Hades/Pluto fellow? Odd.

Ok, now I remember what I've been trying to argue.

It seems to me that, if one lived in a vacuum, inventing a bloodthirsty
death-goddess might well result in something very similar to Kina/Kali. It
might not, but it might.

I can't remember why I'm trying to say this. Continuing to argue that Kina
is indeed based on Kali is uhm preaching to the choir or something. I
believe! Sing it, brother! Well, maybe not the choir, maybe the newly
converted. Still though. I believe y'all, I have since the first email on
this topic... I was merely trying to say, for some bizarre reason that now
escapes me, that Mr. Cook could have invented Kina and wound up with
something similar to Kali anyway... though maybe not as similar as she /is/,
being as she is based on Kali.

I shut up now :) Honest :)

Kisc
I know when to shut up, I know when I'm not wanted, I'm not one to keep
talking when I've been aske....

|-----Original Message-----
|From: [e-mail]
|[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Fraser
|Ronald
|Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 8:14 AM
|To: [e-mail]
|Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali
|
|
| --- Kisc Kempson <[e-mail]>
|wrote: > When I say "generic" in this context, I'm
|trying to
|> say that every mythology
|> that I know anything about has a death deity, and
|> they are often rather
|> blood-thirsty. A skull necklace seems like a pretty
|> standard accoutrement
|> for a blood-thirsty deity as well, regardless of
|> their sphere of influence.
|>
|
|The question then becomes, why are skull necklaces
|pretty standard accoutrements for blood-thirsty
|deities? Think of the other death deities that most
|western-educated people would know. Hades/Pluto didn't
|have a necklace of skulls, neither did the Norse Hel.
|What of other 'death' deities? The Celts, by and
|large, had no such deity to my knowledge (at least,
|not a real one. Samhain and Bile/Beli were put forth
|in the 19c as Celtic death gods, but most literature
|now indicates they were not).
|
|I think, based on the description of Kina and
|especially the Deceivers (the Thugees were also called
|the Deceivers), we can assume that Mr. Cook used Kali
|as his template for creating his own death goddess.
|
|But that's just my two cents.
|
|=====
|Fraser Ronald
|"Sword's Edge" (http://www.swordsedge.net/)
|AtFantasy Alliance Fiction Archive (http://www.atfantasy.com/fiction)
|
|__________________________________________________
|Do You Yahoo!?
|Everything you'll ever need on one web page
|from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
|http://uk.my.yahoo.com
|
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| visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
|


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 10:57:05 -0700
From: "Derrill \"Kisc\" Guilbert" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology

sweet, so that means Remo didn't lie to me! Woo-hoo!

Although the bit about having the avatars of Kali and Shiva fight one
another does seem to break down again here... Oh well :)

At least Shiva is the destroyer again! Woot!

Kisc
No, really, I'm shutting up now. Now. n---Now!

|-----Original Message-----
|From: [e-mail]
|[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Navin
|Javvaji
|Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 8:55 AM
|To: [e-mail];
|[e-mail]
|Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology
|
|
|
|I don't necessaryily want to correct anyone on Hindu mythology but
|here are
|my two cents.
|
|The writer below is correct in stating that the trinity in the
|Hindu religon
|is made up of Brahma (the creator), Vishnu (the perserver), and Shiva (the
|destroyer).
|
|According to the Hindu religon:
|
|Shiva's father-in-law (because Shiva married a mortal) held a religous
|ceremony without inviting Shiva or his wife.  His wife (Parvati) assumed
|that she was automatically invited because it was still her
|parents house so
|she went.  Upon her arrival to house, her father proceeded to
|verbally abuse
|and shame in front of all of the guests.  Parvati, unable to stand the
|humiliation, committed suicide on the spot by burning herself alive.
|
|Shiva was informed of this and in his anger tore out a bunch of
|his hair and
|smashed it against the ground causing it break into two pieces.  One piece
|became Kali and the other piece became Yama (the God of Death).  These two
|gods lead Shiva's army against all that stood by and watched his wife kill
|herself.
|
|This is probably a bit more than you wanted to know about the Hindu
|Religion, but I thought I should set the record straight.
|
|
|----Original Message Follows----
|From: Robo Tchas <[e-mail]>
|Reply-To: [e-mail]
|To: [e-mail]
|Subject: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology
|Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 01:36:54 -0800 (PST)
|
|Someone said "Shiva the Creator, Vishnu the Preserver,
|Kali the Destroyer" -
|
|Actually, it's Brahma the Creator, Vishnu the
|Preserver, and Shiva the Destroyer. Shiva isn't
|necessarily evil, he's more a force of change. Kali is
|sort of the consort or female counterpart of Shiva,
|and definitely the basis for Kina.
|
|I really liked the fact that it was hard to tie any of
|the cultures in the Books of the North to any specific
|Earth culture (well, Forsberger is sorta Germanic and
|the Jewel Cities somewhat Levantine), thanks to the
|use of plain English instead of the usual
|faux-European (esp. faux-Tolkien) or faux-Klingon (ie
|completely made up) nomenclature. A soft-headed friend
|of mine complained about this very fact, but I read it
|as if all the names had been translated into English
|with their actual meanings wherever there was
|one...clever and actually very distinctive (Los
|Angeles means something too you know). That said, it
|was also cool to see someone using Southeast Asian
|culture (Taglios = New Delhi, Nyueng Bao = Vietnamese,
|etc.) and using it well. Cook's interest in other
|cultures is one of the assets that makes him such a
|great writer.
|
|
|And as a side note, could people turn off any
|HTML/MIME/Microsoft garbage that adds fancy things to
|your email? It all shows up as Sanskrit for those of
|us sticking to text. Thanks.
|
|__________________________________________________
|Do you Yahoo!?
|HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
|http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
|
|=======================================================================
|  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
|  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
|
|
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|
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|


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:41:14 -0800
From: Grey Lowell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology

with mythology there is rarely one correct answer, especially when
there are so many religions borrowing from each other.

anyway, so while the Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva is a basis, there is a case of
a trilogy of Shiva, Vishnu and Devi (with Kali being one of the
personifications of Devi, but then again what female god isn't?) though
i'm not up on what geographical regions support what views, hierarchies
and creation myths, etc. generally a muddle which is something i think
Cook demonstrates at more than one point...

about which (to bring us back to reason for this list) i'd like to
raise the question of what people think his take on organized (or
disorganized) religion is as pertains to his writings. perhaps this has
been hashed out already, but i'm curious to see if those of you who
have religious convictions take a different view of Cook's various
attempts to rationalize the human reliance on religion.

GReY.

On Thursday, Oct 31, 2002, at 09:57 US/Pacific, Derrill "Kisc" Guilbert
wrote:

> sweet, so that means Remo didn't lie to me! Woo-hoo!
>
> Although the bit about having the avatars of Kali and Shiva fight one
> another does seem to break down again here... Oh well :)
>
> At least Shiva is the destroyer again! Woot!
>
> Kisc
> No, really, I'm shutting up now. Now. n---Now!


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 04:12:17 -0700
From: "Kisc Kempson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology)

I'm not sure what you're asking.

You see, as a man with religious convictions, I have a difficult time
answering other than: any attempt to rationalize the human reliance on
religion is misguided. There is a God. We must learn to rely on Him.

There are a lot of people who bury themselves (or are buried by others) in
rhetoric and zeal, and pull their convictions so far from anything to do
with today's reality.

There are a ton of people who are waiting to take advantage of whoever they
can... some people are too trusting, too blind of faith.

I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, aka the
Mormons. I very strongly believe that what I'm taught is as correct as it
gets, on Earth. However, I've been overheard to say, from time to time, "I
would enjoy church a lot more if it wasn't for all the damn Mormons." Some
people go to church for the wrong reason; some people go to church for the
right reasons, but don't live their convictions in any meaningful way. Some
people -- me, for instance -- are closet misanthropes and couldn't be
pleased even if you put a cherry on top.

(Most of us, of course, have every one of these flaws in greater or lesser
degrees. People often get categorized by what you see them doing when you're
in a bad mood.)

All of these (and many other) sorts of things lead to people who don't
believe in a deity at all. If, for extreme example, Father Clemente raped
you when you were a teenager, then anything he says he believes must be
absolute crap.

Folks who don't believe in deity at all would be the folks who would need to
rationalize humanity's reliance on religion.

Folks who believe in deity would answer similarly to me: Well, He's there,
isn't He? What's to rationalize? Humanity is drawn by an inbuilt tendency to
search for the Creator. A very polite "duh" would seem the best answer here
:)

So... Uhm... can you clarify a little bit what you are asking? I rather
suspect that my answer has nothing to do with the question you asked, as
opposed to the question I read.

Derrill


> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Grey Lowell
> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 1:41 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology
>
>
>
> with mythology there is rarely one correct answer, especially when
> there are so many religions borrowing from each other.
>
> anyway, so while the Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva is a basis, there is a case of
> a trilogy of Shiva, Vishnu and Devi (with Kali being one of the
> personifications of Devi, but then again what female god isn't?) though
> i'm not up on what geographical regions support what views, hierarchies
> and creation myths, etc. generally a muddle which is something i think
> Cook demonstrates at more than one point...
>
> about which (to bring us back to reason for this list) i'd like to
> raise the question of what people think his take on organized (or
> disorganized) religion is as pertains to his writings. perhaps this has
> been hashed out already, but i'm curious to see if those of you who
> have religious convictions take a different view of Cook's various
> attempts to rationalize the human reliance on religion.
>
> GReY.
>
> On Thursday, Oct 31, 2002, at 09:57 US/Pacific, Derrill "Kisc" Guilbert
> wrote:
>
> > sweet, so that means Remo didn't lie to me! Woo-hoo!
> >
> > Although the bit about having the avatars of Kali and Shiva fight one
> > another does seem to break down again here... Oh well :)
> >
> > At least Shiva is the destroyer again! Woot!
> >
> > Kisc
> > No, really, I'm shutting up now. Now. n---Now!
>
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 17:35:58 -0500
From: "Michele Riccio" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali

On 31 Oct 2002 at 10:55, Derrill "Kisc" Guilbert wrote

>
> I thought Samhain had something to do with vodoo or something.
>
> The Celts didn't have like a Hades/Pluto fellow? Odd.
>

In answer to your semi-questions.  Samhain is the Celtic
celebration, which became Halloween (how apropos that today is
October 31...).  As it was explained to me - Samhain is the day on
which the "curtain" between the living and the dead is thinnest.

The Celts do/did (?) have a "death" god - or Lord of the underworld,
Anwen (sp?) (that's the Welsh version - I can't remember the Irish).
Also - Mannannan (sp?) is considered the Lord of Tir na n'Og, which
is where all good Celts go when they die ;-)

Yes, I know this has nothing to do with the books - but I hardly ever
get a chance to show off my esoteric knowledge.

happy halloween
Michele Riccio
[e-mail]


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 17:42:26 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology)

- --part1_1aa.b40defe.2af30bd2_boundary
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In a message dated 10/31/02 5:16:26 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

> >about which (to bring us back to reason for this list) i'd like to
> >raise the question of what people think his take on organized (or
> >disorganized) religion is as pertains to his writings. perhaps this has
> >been hashed out already, but i'm curious to see if those of you who
> >have religious convictions take a different view of Cook's various
> >attempts to rationalize the human reliance on religion.
> >
> >GReY.
>

so those of us without religous convictions cant answer?

ive always believed religion was for the weak. those who need some higher
power to direct them in how to act and what do to. Ive always wanted there to
be some movement where the actions of a person are ruled by their conscious
rather than the threat of living in eternal damnation. however, that would
mean we would all have to be concerned about each other and work together to
make a better world, something the majority obviously cant do, hence their
reliance on religion....

and all that from a guy that plays a cleric!!


<A HREF="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=54179">Axemaster</A>  61 Cleric
<A HREF="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=54306">Lilaxe</A> 58 Warrior


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In a message dated 10/31/02 5:16:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, [e-mail] writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">>about which (to bring us back to reason for this list) i'd like to<BR>
>raise the question of what people think his take on organized (or<BR>
>disorganized) religion is as pertains to his writings. perhaps this has<BR>
>been hashed out already, but i'm curious to see if those of you who<BR>
>have religious convictions take a different view of Cook's various<BR>
>attempts to rationalize the human reliance on religion.<BR>
><BR>
>GReY.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
so those of us without religous convictions cant answer?<BR>
<BR>
ive always believed religion was for the weak. those who need some higher power to direct them in how to act and what do to. Ive always wanted there to be some movement where the actions of a person are ruled by their conscious rather than the threat of living in eternal damnation. however, that would mean we would all have to be concerned about each other and work together to make a better world, something the majority obviously cant do, hence their reliance on religion....<BR>
<BR>
and all that from a guy that plays a cleric!!<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Trebuchet MS" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<A HREF="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=54179">Axemaster</A>  61 Cleric<BR>
<A HREF="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=54306">Lilaxe</A> 58 Warrior<BR>
    <BR>
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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 04:50:27 -0700
From: "Kisc Kempson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali

Michele wrote:
> The Celts do/did (?) have a "death" god - or Lord of the underworld,
> Anwen (sp?) (that's the Welsh version - I can't remember the Irish).
> Also - Mannannan (sp?) is considered the Lord of Tir na n'Og, which
> is where all good Celts go when they die ;-)

In my unending effort to steer email lists off course, I ask the following:

Does that sound vaguely Klingon, or is it just me?

Derrill
Heh.

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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 05:01:26 -0700
From: "Kisc Kempson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology)

Axemaster, I think you're making a mistake, assuming that it is all because
of weakness.

<snip>

Too off-topic, what I was writing.

Suffice to say, I don't need God as an excuse to be good. I would rather NOT
be good. But, for various reasons, I am confident that God exists, and that
I have some vague idea of what He wants of me. So, I'd rather do that than
not go to Heaven. Since I'm sort of stuck believing in Him and all.

Blah.

Kisc
Misanthrope at large.

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of
[e-mail]
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 3:42 PM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology)


In a message dated 10/31/02 5:16:26 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:


>about which (to bring us back to reason for this list) i'd like to
>raise the question of what people think his take on organized (or
>disorganized) religion is as pertains to his writings. perhaps this has
>been hashed out already, but i'm curious to see if those of you who
>have religious convictions take a different view of Cook's various
>attempts to rationalize the human reliance on religion.
>
>GReY.



so those of us without religous convictions cant answer?

ive always believed religion was for the weak. those who need some higher
power to direct them in how to act and what do to. Ive always wanted there
to be some movement where the actions of a person are ruled by their
conscious rather than the threat of living in eternal damnation. however,
that would mean we would all have to be concerned about each other and work
together to make a better world, something the majority obviously cant do,
hence their reliance on religion....

and all that from a guy that plays a cleric!!


Axemaster  61 Cleric
Lilaxe 58 Warrior



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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 23:33:48 +0000
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology)

You're an idiot.

Religion for the weak?  I would say that any
mood-altering substance is for the weak, whether it is
alcohol or religion.  Some of us do not adhere to a
religion because of the need for an emotional crutch,
however.  Some of us adhere to a religion because we
believe it to be the only thing that makes sense.

I could name many men who happen to be religious who also
happen to be much stronger than you could ever be.

I wish people would keep this list strictly to cook.  I
do not care about what some pasty little fool thinks
about politics/history/religion.  Keep it to yourself.
No one cares.




> so those of us without religous convictions cant answer?
>
> ive always believed religion was for the weak. those who need some higher
> power to direct them in how to act and what do to. Ive always wanted there to
> be some movement where the actions of a person are ruled by their conscious
> rather than the threat of living in eternal damnation. however, that would
> mean we would all have to be concerned about each other and work together to
> make a better world, something the majority obviously cant do, hence their
> reliance on religion....
>
> and all that from a guy that plays a cleric!!
>
>
> <A HREF="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=54179">Axemaster</A>  61
> Cleric
> <A HREF="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=54306">Lilaxe</A> 58
> Warrior
>

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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:48:52 -0800
From: Peter Leitch <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology)

Gee, I thought this was a topic on religion and how it ties in with the
teachings, strick that, writings of Glen Cook!

Recently, I came across a reference to the White Rose.  A search on the
internet turned up "White Rose: Student group in Nazi Germany who
resisted Hitler".

I think it is great that Cook is a able to tie together
politics/history/religion into a tale that is enjoyable to read.

It's strange that someone that attests: "Some of us adhere to a
religion" would slam someone else for commenting on religion.  A
sensitive topic, I guess.

[e-mail] wrote:

> You're an idiot.
>
> Religion for the weak?  I would say that any
> mood-altering substance is for the weak, whether it is
> alcohol or religion.  Some of us do not adhere to a
> religion because of the need for an emotional crutch,
> however.  Some of us adhere to a religion because we
> believe it to be the only thing that makes sense.
>
> I could name many men who happen to be religious who also
> happen to be much stronger than you could ever be.
>
> I wish people would keep this list strictly to cook.  I
> do not care about what some pasty little fool thinks
> about politics/history/religion.  Keep it to yourself.
> No one cares.
>
>
>
>
>
>>so those of us without religous convictions cant answer?
>>
>>ive always believed religion was for the weak. those who need some higher
>>power to direct them in how to act and what do to. Ive always wanted there to
>>be some movement where the actions of a person are ruled by their conscious
>>rather than the threat of living in eternal damnation. however, that would
>>mean we would all have to be concerned about each other and work together to
>>make a better world, something the majority obviously cant do, hence their
>>reliance on religion....
>>
>>and all that from a guy that plays a cleric!!
>>
>>
>><A HREF="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=54179">Axemaster</A>  61
>>Cleric
>><A HREF="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=54306">Lilaxe</A> 58
>>Warrior
>>
>>
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
>



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Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 00:40:34 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology)

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In a message dated 10/31/2002 6:03:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

>
> Suffice to say, I don't need God as an excuse to be good. I would rather
> NOT
> be good. But, for various reasons, I am confident that God exists, and that
> I have some vague idea of what He wants of me. So, I'd rather do that than
> not go to Heaven. Since I'm sort of stuck believing in Him and all.
>
>

and with these words you have just validated my statements...

<A HREF="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=54179">Axemaster - Cleric 61</A>
<A HREF="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=54306">Lilaxe - Warrior 58</A>


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In a message dated 10/31/2002 6:03:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, [e-mail] writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0000ff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
Suffice to say, I don't need God as an excuse to be good. I would rather NOT<BR>
be good. But, for various reasons, I am confident that God exists, and that<BR>
I have some vague idea of what He wants of me. So, I'd rather do that than<BR>
not go to Heaven. Since I'm sort of stuck believing in Him and all.<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
and with these words you have just validated my statements...<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0000ff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<A HREF="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=54179">Axemaster - Cleric 61</A><BR>
<A HREF="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=54306">Lilaxe - Warrior 58</A><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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