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glencook-fans-digest    Wednesday, October 30 2002    Volume 01 : Number 220




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 03:51:18 -0700
From: "Kisc Kempson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali

It wouldn't be at all surprising if Mr. Cook used a goddess from actual
mythology as a blueprint for one of his fictional gods. After all, it makes
perfect sense to use the work of potentially hundreds of thousands of years
of human imagination, rather than the few hours you might have to make up a
goddess. When human mythology is so rich and varied, why re-create more of
it than you have to? To mis-coin a phrase, why reinvent the deity? ;)

That doesn't mean he did. Really, how much imagination does it take to
create a generic blood-thirsty goddess of death that wears a skull necklace,
and then write vague myths about her (no offense to Mr. Cook's writing or
imagination is intended here)?

The details would be more difficult to flesh out of course, particularly if
this goddess was going to be interacting with your characters more or less
directly, as opposed to the standoffish deitys you often find in print. That
goes for either option.

Kina always kind of reminded me of the Shiva from the Destroyer books. Remo
Williams, that is. I seem to recall that Kali and Shiva are portrayed in
those books as being alternately antagonistic and lovers, but I wasn't
terribly clear on that point. Slight spoiler here, Remo is supposedly the
avatar of Shiva, while some chick in one of the books was the avatar of
Kali. I read that some time ago, and don't remember how it ended, although
Remo of course won (he always does in the end, except when he goes up agains
Chuin).

Something mildly entertaining that I just realized, regarding what I do when
I try to write:
I thought that I was creating deitys and myths in the holes left by much of
the mythologies of our world, trying to avoid the cliches as much as I
could. It turns out that I've been creating gods based on the demi-gods and
heros of our world... Hercules and Perseus, in particular, appear to be very
close to what I've "imagined up" for gods.

This writing stuff isn't easy, and the harder I try at it, the more respect
I have for people who are making a living doing it.

Kisc

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Carl Forester
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 2:24 PM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali


This may have been mentioned before, I haven't been on the list long.  I was
reading an article on MSN about the Scariest Monster's around the Globe. One
of them that was mentioned was an Indian goddess named Kali (Description of
kali and the Thugs below) which sounds very close to the description of Kina
and the Strangler.  Just a personal epiphany I thought I would share.

- -carl-

Kali

Kali (feminine form of Sanskrit kala,"time" or "dark"), consort of the Hindu
god Shiva in her manifestation of the power of time. A destructive mother
goddess, Kali is frequently depicted as a black, laughing, naked hag with
blood-stained teeth, a protruding tongue, and a garland of human skulls. She
usually has four arms: One hand holds a sword, the second holds a severed
human head, the third is believed by her devotees to be removing fear, and
the fourth is often interpreted as granting bliss. Kali-omnipotent,
absolute, and all-pervasive-is beyond fear and finite existence and is
therefore believed to be able to protect her devotees against fear and to
give them limitless peace. Finally, as absolute night, devouring all that
exists, she is sometimes depicted as standing on the corpse of Shiva, which,
like the garland of skulls, symbolizes the remains of finite existence.
Kali's worshipers purportedly appeased her in the past with human
sacrifices; today she is propitiated with the blood of mammals. Under the
title Bhavani, she was invoked by the secret brotherhood of murderers called
Thugs. The city of Calcutta (now Kolkata) received its name from Kali;
Calcutta is the Anglicized form of Kalighata, the name of a large temple
dedicated to Kali.


How to cite this article:
"Kali," MicrosoftR EncartaR Online Encyclopedia 2002
http://encarta.msn.com C 1997-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights
Reserved.
C 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved.


Thugs

Thugs (from Sanskrit sthag,"conceal" or "deceive"), former secret
organization of robbers in India, who always strangled their victims.
Devotees of the goddess Kali, they regarded their activities as religious
rituals; new members were initiated in an elaborate ceremony, and they
worshiped, as a symbol of the goddess, the pickax with which they dug the
graves of their victims. Included in their ranks were many Brahmins and
respectable businessmen. In October, they would meet in bands of from 10 to
200 and set out on the highways, where they would set upon wealthy
travelers, strangle them with a cloth, distribute the booty, and flee. A
portion of the booty was always presented as an offering to the goddess in
one of her temples. Thugs arose in northern India before the Muslim conquest
in the 12th century ad and thrived, with extraordinary immunity from
prosecution under Hindu law, until 1829, when Lord William Bentinck, the
British governor-general of India, began to investigate the organization,
perhaps because of thugee activity directed against British soldiers and
government officials. The campaign against the Thugs, directed by Sir W. H.
Sleeman, was remarkably successful. Within seven years more than 3000 of
them had been imprisoned or hanged, and the Thugs were wiped out.

Contributed By:
Wendy Doniger, M.A., Ph.D., D.Phil.
Mircea Eliade Professor of History of Religions and Indian Studies,
University of Chicago. Author of The Origins of Evil in Hindu Mythology,
Siva: the Erotic Ascetic, and Dreams, Illusion, and Other Realities.
How to cite this article:
"Thugs," MicrosoftR EncartaR Online Encyclopedia 2002
http://encarta.msn.com C 1997-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights
Reserved.
C 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved.

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of
[e-mail]
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 10:45
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Soldiers Live


In a message dated 10/29/02 9:44:39 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

Been awhile since i read the books, but now you got me wanting to go back
and re read this. Would have to look at the end of the last book maybe to
see who it is that went up on the plain...



I think that Mr. Cook, makes mention that the third person that survived off
of the plain instigated the rebellion that was called the "Kiaulune Wars"

Direct Quote:

"Only fifty people had ventured otu onto that plain of glittering stone.
Half of those people had not been Company.  Only two of those fifty had
returned to lie about what had happened.  And a third who had come back to
retell the truth had been killed in the Kiaulune wars, far away from the
capital."

Mr Cook goes on to name the two: "But the deciets of Soulcather and Willow
Swan fooled no one, then or now", but never mentions the third.


Any comments?








Axemaster  61 Cleric
Lilaxe 58 Warrior



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 15:59:39 -0600
From: mokie <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali

> That doesn't mean he did. Really, how much imagination does it take to
> create a generic blood-thirsty goddess of death that wears a skull necklace,
> and then write vague myths about her (no offense to Mr. Cook's writing or
> imagination is intended here)?

I'm not sure if Kina is all that generic, especially when the cult is
added in--it all pointed pretty solidly to a Kali-reference to me--but
then, I admit that I haven't finished the series yet and may be missing
some things.

And just for the sake of conversation:
http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/article/0,13673,501020729-322673,00.html

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 04:17:11 -0700
From: "Kisc Kempson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali

When I say "generic" in this context, I'm trying to say that every mythology
that I know anything about has a death deity, and they are often rather
blood-thirsty. A skull necklace seems like a pretty standard accoutrement
for a blood-thirsty deity as well, regardless of their sphere of influence.

I play way too much Monty Haul D&D, of course. To me, you can find
blood-thirsty death goddesses around every corner, and probably 8 of 10 are
wearing skulls for some sort of jewelry, if not always a necklace. :)

To sum up, it is quite reasonable to suppose that Mr. Cook might have based
his Kina on Kali ... but it isn't unreasonable, if you don't know anything
about Kali, to suppose that Mr. Cook could have taken a generic death
goddess and came up with the details on his own.

I don't remember why I was trying to make that point. But that's the point I
was trying to make ;)

Kisc



> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of mokie
> Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 3:00 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali
>
>
> > That doesn't mean he did. Really, how much imagination does it take to
> > create a generic blood-thirsty goddess of death that wears a
> skull necklace,
> > and then write vague myths about her (no offense to Mr. Cook's
> writing or
> > imagination is intended here)?
>
> I'm not sure if Kina is all that generic, especially when the cult is
> added in--it all pointed pretty solidly to a Kali-reference to me--but
> then, I admit that I haven't finished the series yet and may be missing
> some things.
>
> And just for the sake of conversation:
> http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/article/0,13673,501020729-3
> 22673,00.html
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>


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 To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
 visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 16:26:45 -0600
From: "Carl Forester" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali

I sort of see what your getting at..  However at least for me anyway the
similarities seem a bit more than a coincidence especially when you
throw in the Thugs/Stranglers.  Did you by chance read the description
of the Thugs?  I'm not criticizing Cook in anyway.  When I ran across it
I just thought it was very interesting.  As I said a personal epiphany.

- -carl-


- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Kisc
Kempson
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 05:17
To: [e-mail]
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali


When I say "generic" in this context, I'm trying to say that every
mythology that I know anything about has a death deity, and they are
often rather blood-thirsty. A skull necklace seems like a pretty
standard accoutrement for a blood-thirsty deity as well, regardless of
their sphere of influence.

I play way too much Monty Haul D&D, of course. To me, you can find
blood-thirsty death goddesses around every corner, and probably 8 of 10
are wearing skulls for some sort of jewelry, if not always a necklace.
:)

To sum up, it is quite reasonable to suppose that Mr. Cook might have
based his Kina on Kali ... but it isn't unreasonable, if you don't know
anything about Kali, to suppose that Mr. Cook could have taken a generic
death goddess and came up with the details on his own.

I don't remember why I was trying to make that point. But that's the
point I was trying to make ;)

Kisc



> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of mokie
> Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 3:00 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali
>
>
> > That doesn't mean he did. Really, how much imagination does it take
> > to create a generic blood-thirsty goddess of death that wears a
> skull necklace,
> > and then write vague myths about her (no offense to Mr. Cook's
> writing or
> > imagination is intended here)?
>
> I'm not sure if Kina is all that generic, especially when the cult is
> added in--it all pointed pretty solidly to a Kali-reference to me--but

> then, I admit that I haven't finished the series yet and may be
> missing some things.
>
> And just for the sake of conversation:
> http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/article/0,13673,501020729-3
> 22673,00.html
>
> ======================================================================
> =
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>


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 To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,  visit
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 17:38:43 -0500
From: Stacey Harris <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali

Carl,

Yes, the origin of Kina in Kali is very evident to those who are
familiar with Hindu mythology (as is the elephant-headed god, one of the
popular favorites among Hindus).  Similarly, the Deceivers are very
evidently drawn from the Thugees (though I hadn't previously been aware
that the parallels were quite so close, including the pickaxe symbol).

The entire Book of the South draws very strongly on the religions and
customs of South and South-East Asia (with some admixture from
equatorial Africa).  Swan and Mather are clearly recognizable as
stand-ins for Vietnam-war-era GIs who stayed in-country.

Steve

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 15:40:18 -0700
From: Sam Roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali

Having been previously familiar with Kali and the Thug cult (research for an
RPG game I ran many years ago), when I first read the Books of the South, I
took it for granted that Cook had based Kina and her followers on them.
There were so many specific similarities, it never occurred to me to think
otherwise.

That being said, I don't think it's a bad thing at all.  Look at all the
other fantasy novels around using things like Celtic mysticism and the
Arthur legends for inspiration.  I distinctly remember being excited that
someone had based a culture in a fantasy novel on something other than the
old Celtic/pagan standby stuff.  More power to him, I say.

Sam Roberts

"On two occasions I have been asked [by Members of Parliament], `Pray, Mr.
Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers
come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas
that could provoke such a question."   - Charles Babbage (inventor of the
Difference Engine, an early mechanical computer)



- -----Original Message-----
From: Carl Forester [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 3:27 PM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali


I sort of see what your getting at..  However at least for me anyway the
similarities seem a bit more than a coincidence especially when you
throw in the Thugs/Stranglers.  Did you by chance read the description
of the Thugs?  I'm not criticizing Cook in anyway.  When I ran across it
I just thought it was very interesting.  As I said a personal epiphany.

- -carl-


- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Kisc
Kempson
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 05:17
To: [e-mail]
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali


When I say "generic" in this context, I'm trying to say that every
mythology that I know anything about has a death deity, and they are
often rather blood-thirsty. A skull necklace seems like a pretty
standard accoutrement for a blood-thirsty deity as well, regardless of
their sphere of influence.

I play way too much Monty Haul D&D, of course. To me, you can find
blood-thirsty death goddesses around every corner, and probably 8 of 10
are wearing skulls for some sort of jewelry, if not always a necklace.
:)

To sum up, it is quite reasonable to suppose that Mr. Cook might have
based his Kina on Kali ... but it isn't unreasonable, if you don't know
anything about Kali, to suppose that Mr. Cook could have taken a generic
death goddess and came up with the details on his own.

I don't remember why I was trying to make that point. But that's the
point I was trying to make ;)

Kisc



> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of mokie
> Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 3:00 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali
>
>
> > That doesn't mean he did. Really, how much imagination does it take
> > to create a generic blood-thirsty goddess of death that wears a
> skull necklace,
> > and then write vague myths about her (no offense to Mr. Cook's
> writing or
> > imagination is intended here)?
>
> I'm not sure if Kina is all that generic, especially when the cult is
> added in--it all pointed pretty solidly to a Kali-reference to me--but

> then, I admit that I haven't finished the series yet and may be
> missing some things.
>
> And just for the sake of conversation:
> http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/article/0,13673,501020729-3
> 22673,00.html
>
> ======================================================================
> =
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 17:41:47 -0500
From: Stacey Harris <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali

Kim,

Kali and Shiva are alternate personae of (more or less) the same diety
in Hinduism.  Actually, there is a triumvirate, Shiva/Vishnu/Kali: Shiva
the Creator, Vishnu the Preserver, Kali the Destroyer.  I don't really
know how this compares (in terms of 3-in-1) to Catholism's Trinity--but,
then, I don't really understand the Catholic Trinity.

Steve

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 04:44:59 -0700
From: "Kisc Kempson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali

I didn't actually read much of the description before I deleted the email,
just sort of skimmed it. I always sort of assumed that Kina was at least
loosely based on an actual Hindu or other goddess of our world, and didn't
care too much about the details while I'm at work.

I guess I thought you sounded surprised that an author would do that, so I
may have been trying to suggest why, while at the same time suggesting that
Cook seems inventive enough that he could have done it on his own... but
again, why reinvent the deity?

Or something.

Kisc
Like I can remember what I was thinking that long ago. Sheesh. ;)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Carl
> Forester
> Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 3:27 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali
>
>
> I sort of see what your getting at..  However at least for me anyway the
> similarities seem a bit more than a coincidence especially when you
> throw in the Thugs/Stranglers.  Did you by chance read the description
> of the Thugs?  I'm not criticizing Cook in anyway.  When I ran across it
> I just thought it was very interesting.  As I said a personal epiphany.
>
> -carl-
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Kisc
> Kempson
> Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 05:17
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali
>
>
> When I say "generic" in this context, I'm trying to say that every
> mythology that I know anything about has a death deity, and they are
> often rather blood-thirsty. A skull necklace seems like a pretty
> standard accoutrement for a blood-thirsty deity as well, regardless of
> their sphere of influence.
>
> I play way too much Monty Haul D&D, of course. To me, you can find
> blood-thirsty death goddesses around every corner, and probably 8 of 10
> are wearing skulls for some sort of jewelry, if not always a necklace.
> :)
>
> To sum up, it is quite reasonable to suppose that Mr. Cook might have
> based his Kina on Kali ... but it isn't unreasonable, if you don't know
> anything about Kali, to suppose that Mr. Cook could have taken a generic
> death goddess and came up with the details on his own.
>
> I don't remember why I was trying to make that point. But that's the
> point I was trying to make ;)
>
> Kisc
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [e-mail]
> > [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of mokie
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 3:00 PM
> > To: [e-mail]
> > Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali
> >
> >
> > > That doesn't mean he did. Really, how much imagination does it take
> > > to create a generic blood-thirsty goddess of death that wears a
> > skull necklace,
> > > and then write vague myths about her (no offense to Mr. Cook's
> > writing or
> > > imagination is intended here)?
> >
> > I'm not sure if Kina is all that generic, especially when the cult is
> > added in--it all pointed pretty solidly to a Kali-reference to me--but
>
> > then, I admit that I haven't finished the series yet and may be
> > missing some things.
> >
> > And just for the sake of conversation:
> > http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/article/0,13673,501020729-3
> > 22673,00.html
> >
> > ======================================================================
> > =
> >  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> >  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> >
>
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,  visit
> <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
> =======================================================================
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>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 04:58:39 -0700
From: "Kisc Kempson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali

Thanks for that note, Steve. I knew there was some relationship, but it
isn't something I've spent much time with, so I can never remember just what
the details are. Thinking back, I recall that three faces seems like a
distinctly Indian sort of concept in the back of my mind.

Not being a Catholic, I can't speak to the specifics of the trinity with any
authority, nor can I on the Hindu part ... however, my vague understanding
suggests that in both of those cases, we're talking about different
incarnations of the same deity. Although I must say that the Hindu Trinity,
if you'll allow me to, seems to be both more and less joined at the hip when
compared to the Catholic Trinity. I am almost certain that I recall
Shiva/Vishnu/Kali working at cross purposes, as well as occasionally
directly against one another. The little bit I recall about Hinduism seems
to suggest that this is one of those things you just learn to accept,
because it is the way of existence or something.

I don't think it is like Piers Anthony's Sisters of Fate (from the
Incarnation of Immortality series) ... that was three people stuck in one
body.

Shiva is always referred to as the Destroyer in the Remo Williams books.
And, in a completely unrelated and useless bit of information, is the Ice
Goddess in Final Fantasy mythology.

Alright, in order to drag myself vaguely back on topic...

Does the big guy in the middle of the plain suggest any Terran deity to
anyone? There isn't anything that I remember hearing of, but a deity that is
stuck and just remembers seems pretty straightforward to me... would take
far less imagination, I'd think, than Prometheus, for instance.

Derrill



> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Stacey
> Harris
> Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 3:42 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali
>
>
> Kim,
>
> Kali and Shiva are alternate personae of (more or less) the same diety
> in Hinduism.  Actually, there is a triumvirate, Shiva/Vishnu/Kali: Shiva
> the Creator, Vishnu the Preserver, Kali the Destroyer.  I don't really
> know how this compares (in terms of 3-in-1) to Catholism's Trinity--but,
> then, I don't really understand the Catholic Trinity.
>
> Steve
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 18:14:17 -0500
From: Stacey Harris <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali

Derrill,

"Does the big guy in the middle of the plain suggest any Terran deity to
anyone?"

Spoiler for "Soldiers Live"

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

The only thing that occurs to me (besides Prometheus--good call on that)
is Atlas.  What I'm thinking of here is the time that Atlas got Hercules
to take the burden of holding the world off his shoulders for a while
(at least, I think that's part of Greek mythology), as a loose analogy
with Croaker's volunteering to take up the post of the "big guey in the
middle of the plain".

Steve

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Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 18:33:26 -0500
From: "Andrew Skowronski" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali

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MessageGood call, I'd never realised that Kina was based on a "real" god.

You can find some pretty wacky websites if you search for Kali on the
internet....

Here's a picture.  Not exactly as scary as what I pictured in my head.

- -Andrew

  -----Original Message-----
  From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Carl Forester
  Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 4:24 PM
  To: [e-mail]
  Subject: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali


  This may have been mentioned before, I haven't been on the list long.  I
was reading an article on MSN about the Scariest Monster's around the Globe.
One of them that was mentioned was an Indian goddess named Kali (Description
of kali and the Thugs below) which sounds very close to the description of
Kina and the Strangler.  Just a personal epiphany I thought I would share.

  -carl-

        Kali

  Kali (feminine form of Sanskrit kala,"time" or "dark"), consort of the
Hindu god Shiva in her manifestation of the power of time. A destructive
mother goddess, Kali is frequently depicted as a black, laughing, naked hag
with blood-stained teeth, a protruding tongue, and a garland of human
skulls. She usually has four arms: One hand holds a sword, the second holds
a severed human head, the third is believed by her devotees to be removing
fear, and the fourth is often interpreted as granting bliss.
Kali-omnipotent, absolute, and all-pervasive-is beyond fear and finite
existence and is therefore believed to be able to protect her devotees
against fear and to give them limitless peace. Finally, as absolute night,
devouring all that exists, she is sometimes depicted as standing on the
corpse of Shiva, which, like the garland of skulls, symbolizes the remains
of finite existence. Kali's worshipers purportedly appeased her in the past
with human sacrifices; today she is propitiated with the blood of mammals.
Under the title Bhavani, she was invoked by the secret brotherhood of
murderers called Thugs. The city of Calcutta (now Kolkata) received its name
from Kali; Calcutta is the Anglicized form of Kalighata, the name of a large
temple dedicated to Kali.



        How to cite this article:
        "Kali," MicrosoftR EncartaR Online Encyclopedia 2002
        http://encarta.msn.com C 1997-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights
Reserved.
        C 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved.


        Thugs

  Thugs (from Sanskrit sthag,"conceal" or "deceive"), former secret
organization of robbers in India, who always strangled their victims.
Devotees of the goddess Kali, they regarded their activities as religious
rituals; new members were initiated in an elaborate ceremony, and they
worshiped, as a symbol of the goddess, the pickax with which they dug the
graves of their victims. Included in their ranks were many Brahmins and
respectable businessmen. In October, they would meet in bands of from 10 to
200 and set out on the highways, where they would set upon wealthy
travelers, strangle them with a cloth, distribute the booty, and flee. A
portion of the booty was always presented as an offering to the goddess in
one of her temples. Thugs arose in northern India before the Muslim conquest
in the 12th century ad and thrived, with extraordinary immunity from
prosecution under Hindu law, until 1829, when Lord William Bentinck, the
British governor-general of India, began to investigate the organization,
perhaps because of thugee activity directed against British soldiers and
government officials. The campaign against the Thugs, directed by Sir W. H.
Sleeman, was remarkably successful. Within seven years more than 3000 of
them had been imprisoned or hanged, and the Thugs were wiped out.


        Contributed By:
        Wendy Doniger, M.A., Ph.D., D.Phil.
        Mircea Eliade Professor of History of Religions and Indian Studies,
University of Chicago. Author of The Origins of Evil in Hindu Mythology,
Siva: the Erotic Ascetic, and Dreams, Illusion, and Other Realities.
        How to cite this article:
        "Thugs," MicrosoftR EncartaR Online Encyclopedia 2002
        http://encarta.msn.com C 1997-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights
Reserved.
        C 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of
[e-mail]
    Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 10:45
    To: [e-mail]
    Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Soldiers Live


    In a message dated 10/29/02 9:44:39 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

    Been awhile since i read the books, but now you got me wanting to go
back and re read this. Would have to look at the end of the last book maybe
to see who it is that went up on the plain...



      I think that Mr. Cook, makes mention that the third person that
survived off
      of the plain instigated the rebellion that was called the "Kiaulune
Wars"

      Direct Quote:

      "Only fifty people had ventured otu onto that plain of glittering
stone.
      Half of those people had not been Company.  Only two of those fifty
had
      returned to lie about what had happened.  And a third who had come
back to
      retell the truth had been killed in the Kiaulune wars, far away from
the
      capital."

      Mr Cook goes on to name the two: "But the deciets of Soulcather and
Willow
      Swan fooled no one, then or now", but never mentions the third.


      Any comments?








    Axemaster  61 Cleric
    Lilaxe 58 Warrior


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<TITLE>Message</TITLE>

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<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D359563023-30102002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Good=20
call, I'd never realised that Kina was based on a "real"=20
god.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D359563023-30102002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D359563023-30102002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>You=20
can find some pretty wacky websites if you search for Kali on the =
internet....=20
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D359563023-30102002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D359563023-30102002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Here's=20
a picture.  Not exactly as scary as what I pictured in my=20
head.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D359563023-30102002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D359563023-30102002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>-Andrew</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D359563023-30102002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
  [e-mail]=20
  [mailto:[e-mail]]<B>On Behalf Of =
</B>Carl=20
  Forester<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 30, 2002 4:24 =
PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  [e-mail]<BR><B>Subject:</B> (glencook-fans) =
Kina is=20
  realy Kali<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D280541621-30102002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>This=20
  may have been mentioned before, I haven't been on the list long.  =
I was=20
  reading an article on MSN about the Scariest Monster's around the =
Globe. One=20
  of them that was mentioned was an Indian goddess named Kali =
(Description of=20
  kali and the Thugs below) which sounds very close to the description =
of Kina=20
  and the Strangler.  Just a personal epiphany I thought I would=20
  share.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D280541621-30102002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D280541621-30102002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2>-carl-</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D280541621-30102002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV><SPAN class=3D280541621-30102002>
  <DIV>
  <TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
      <TD class=3Darttitle>Kali</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></DIV><A =
name=3Dp1></A>
  <P><FONT class=3Dpkey size=3D2><SPAN class=3Dinlinetitle>Kali</SPAN> =
(feminine form=20
  of Sanskrit <I>kala,</I>”time” or “dark”), =
consort of the Hindu god Shiva in=20
  her manifestation of the power of time. A destructive mother goddess, =
Kali is=20
  frequently depicted as a black, laughing, naked hag with blood-stained =
teeth,=20
  a protruding tongue, and a garland of human skulls. She usually has =
four arms:=20
  One hand holds a sword, the second holds a severed human head, the =
third is=20
  believed by her devotees to be removing fear, and the fourth is often=20
  interpreted as granting bliss. Kali—omnipotent, absolute, and =
all-pervasive—is=20
  beyond fear and finite existence and is therefore believed to be able =
to=20
  protect her devotees against fear and to give them limitless peace. =
Finally,=20
  as absolute night, devouring all that exists, she is sometimes =
depicted as=20
  standing on the corpse of Shiva, which, like the garland of skulls, =
symbolizes=20
  the remains of finite existence. Kali's worshipers purportedly =
appeased her in=20
  the past with human sacrifices; today she is propitiated with the =
blood of=20
  mammals. Under the title <I>Bhavani,</I> she was invoked by the secret =

  brotherhood of murderers called <STRONG><FONT=20
  color=3D#ff0000>Thugs</FONT></STRONG>. The city of Calcutta (now =
Kolkata)=20
  received its name from Kali; Calcutta is the Anglicized form of=20
  <I>Kalighata,</I> the name of a large temple dedicated to=20
  Kali.</FONT></P><SPAN style=3D"CLEAR: left">
  <DIV>
  <TABLE style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 10px" cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 =
width=3D"100%"=20
  border=3D0>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
      <TD bgColor=3D#cccccc><IMG height=3D1=20
        =
src=3D"http://encarta.msn.com/xImages/trans.gif"></TD></TR></TBODY></TABL=
E></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
      <TD class=3Dfooter><B><A class=3Dinactive name=3Dhowtocite>How to =
cite this=20
        article:</A></B><BR>"Kali," Microsoft® Encarta® Online =
Encyclopedia=20
        2002<BR>http://encarta.msn.com © 1997-2002 Microsoft =
Corporation. All=20
        Rights Reserved.</TD></TR>
    <TR>
      <TD class=3Dcopyright>© 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All =
Rights=20
        Reserved.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV>
  <TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
      <TD class=3Darttitle><STRONG><FONT=20
    color=3D#ff0000>Thugs</FONT></STRONG></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><A =
name=3Dp1></A>
  <P><FONT class=3Dpkey size=3D2><SPAN class=3Dinlinetitle>Thugs</SPAN> =
(from Sanskrit=20
  <I>sthag,</I>”conceal” or “deceive”), former =
secret organization of robbers in=20
  India, who always strangled their victims. Devotees of the goddess =
Kali, they=20
  regarded their activities as religious rituals; new members were =
initiated in=20
  an elaborate ceremony, and they worshiped, as a symbol of the goddess, =
the=20
  pickax with which they dug the graves of their victims. Included in =
their=20
  ranks were many Brahmins and respectable businessmen. In October, they =
would=20
  meet in bands of from 10 to 200 and set out on the highways, where =
they would=20
  set upon wealthy travelers, strangle them with a cloth, distribute the =
booty,=20
  and flee. A portion of the booty was always presented as an offering =
to the=20
  goddess in one of her temples. Thugs arose in northern India before =
the Muslim=20
  conquest in the 12th century <SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 75%; TEXT-TRANSFORM: uppercase">ad</SPAN> and =
thrived, with=20
  extraordinary immunity from prosecution under Hindu law, until 1829, =
when Lord=20
  William Bentinck, the British governor-general of India, began to =
investigate=20
  the organization, perhaps because of thugee activity directed against =
British=20
  soldiers and government officials. The campaign against the Thugs, =
directed by=20
  Sir W. H. Sleeman, was remarkably successful. Within seven years more =
than=20
  3000 of them had been imprisoned or hanged, and the Thugs were wiped=20
  out.</FONT></P><SPAN style=3D"CLEAR: left">
  <TABLE style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 10px" cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 =
width=3D"100%"=20
  border=3D0>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
      <TD bgColor=3D#cccccc><IMG height=3D1=20
        =
src=3D"http://encarta.msn.com/xImages/trans.gif"></TD></TR></TBODY></TABL=
E>
  <TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
      <TD class=3Dfooter><B>Contributed By:</B><BR>Wendy Doniger, M.A., =
Ph.D.,=20
        D.Phil.<BR><SUB>Mircea Eliade Professor of History of Religions =
and=20
        Indian Studies, University of Chicago. Author of <I>The Origins =
of Evil=20
        in Hindu Mythology, Siva: the Erotic Ascetic,</I> and <I>Dreams, =

        Illusion, and Other Realities.</I></SUB></TD></TR>
    <TR>
      <TD class=3Dfooter><B><A class=3Dinactive name=3Dhowtocite>How to =
cite this=20
        article:</A></B><BR>"Thugs," Microsoft® Encarta® Online =
Encyclopedia=20
        2002<BR>http://encarta.msn.com © 1997-2002 Microsoft =
Corporation. All=20
        Rights Reserved.</TD></TR>
    <TR>
      <TD class=3Dcopyright>© 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All =
Rights=20
        Reserved.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></SPAN>
  <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
    face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
    [e-mail]=20
    [mailto:[e-mail]] <B>On Behalf Of=20
    </B>[e-mail]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October 29, 2002=20
    10:45<BR><B>To:</B> =
[e-mail]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:=20
    (glencook-fans) Soldiers Live<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT=20
    face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial size=3D2 =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">In a=20
    message dated 10/29/02 9:44:39 AM Eastern Standard Time,=20
    [e-mail] writes:<BR><BR>Been awhile since i read the =
books, but=20
    now you got me wanting to go back and re read this. Would have to =
look at=20
    the end of the last book maybe to see who it is that went up on the=20
    plain...<BR><BR><BR>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff =
2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
    TYPE=3D"CITE">I think that Mr. Cook, makes mention that the third =
person=20
      that survived off <BR>of the plain instigated the rebellion that =
was=20
      called the "Kiaulune Wars"<BR><BR>Direct Quote:<BR><BR>"Only fifty =
people=20
      had ventured otu onto that plain of glittering stone.  =
<BR>Half of=20
      those people had not been Company.  Only two of those fifty =
had=20
      <BR>returned to lie about what had happened.  And a third who =
had=20
      come back to <BR>retell the truth had been killed in the Kiaulune =
wars,=20
      far away from the <BR>capital."<BR><BR>Mr Cook goes on to name the =
two:=20
      "But the deciets of Soulcather and Willow <BR>Swan fooled no one, =
then or=20
      now", but never mentions the third.<BR><BR><BR>Any=20
    comments?<BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3D"Trebuchet MS" =
color=3D#000000 size=3D2=20
    FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0 =
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20
    face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=3D54179">Axemaster=
</A> =20
    61 Cleric<BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=3D54306">Lilaxe</A=
> 58=20
    Warrior<BR>   =20
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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