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glencook-fans-digest       Friday, July 12 2002       Volume 01 : Number 196




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Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 15:01:08 -0500
From: David Ainsworth <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: True Names [spoilers]

At 02:37 PM 7/9/2002 -0300, Richard Chilton wrote:
>Based on what's in the books the Dominator had enough power and
>knowledge to Take 10 of the 11 top wizards of his day, and if he had his
>way there would have been the 11 Who Were Taken.  Instead Lady was a
>near equal he was forced to ally with.
>
>Not his equal of course.  The Lady knew that one on one she couldn't
>beat him.  He probably could have killed her one on one and with the Ten
>behind him she wouldn't have stood a ghost of chance, but he didn't.  He
>keep the option of Takening her open and made her a useful tool in his
>Empire.

Presumably the Dominator had reason to believe that Lady knew some of the
True Names of the Ten.  If so, and if he tried to Take her and failed (say,
because he had the wrong Name), she didn't have the power to beat him but
she could unmake enough of his servants that it wouldn't be worth the risk.
 He may also have feared that she might guess *his* True Name, at least
before he'd gone to extensive efforts to erase it from the world.  I doubt
he could have dealt with Lady's subtlety very well.

>Alas, while we can debate this there is no way to find out the Truth.
>When Cook was asked about another point that was debated on (who was the
>third female Taken) his answer was he didn't know.  He'd either never
>decided or had forgotten since it didn't play a role in the story.  Why
>the Lady didn't name the Taken probably fits into the same catagory for
>him.

Who ever said that authors knew the Truth of their creations?  ;)

In any event, wizardry in the BC series is not particularly systematized,
or at least not by the time of the stories.  There are hints that in
Bomanz's day there may have been more system.  It's certainly a real
headache trying to map BC sorcery onto an RPG system, I can tell you...

If everyone is running around with an individualized method of doing magic,
Cook didn't *need* to develop a set system... but that doesn't mean it
isn't possible to draw a few useful hypotheses.

David

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Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:03:39 -0300
From: Richard Chilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: True Names [spoilers]

David Ainsworth wrote:
>
> At 02:37 PM 7/9/2002 -0300, Richard Chilton wrote:
> >Based on what's in the books the Dominator had enough power and
> >knowledge to Take 10 of the 11 top wizards of his day, and if he had his
> >way there would have been the 11 Who Were Taken.  Instead Lady was a
> >near equal he was forced to ally with.
> >
> >Not his equal of course.  The Lady knew that one on one she couldn't
> >beat him.  He probably could have killed her one on one and with the Ten
> >behind him she wouldn't have stood a ghost of chance, but he didn't.  He
> >keep the option of Takening her open and made her a useful tool in his
> >Empire.
>
> Presumably the Dominator had reason to believe that Lady knew some of the
> True Names of the Ten.  If so, and if he tried to Take her and failed (say,
> because he had the wrong Name), she didn't have the power to beat him but
> she could unmake enough of his servants that it wouldn't be worth the risk.
>  He may also have feared that she might guess *his* True Name, at least
> before he'd gone to extensive efforts to erase it from the world.  I doubt
> he could have dealt with Lady's subtlety very well.
>

Based on their characters I see the Dominator using Lady while Lady used
the Dominator.
Dreams of Steal has a quote pointing out that the Dominator believed in
power, in strength, that enough raw power could solve any problem.  Goes
something like "He believed that up until the day I killed him."
But he must have realized that some problems needed guile, that throwing
raw pow at some situations would be counter productive.  He'd never
needed to develop the skills to handle those situations so gave tasks
like that to certain of the Ten or Lady.  I.E. He used Lady as his top
trouble shooter and manager for areas he didn't want to destroy
outright.
The Lady used the Dominator for his strenght.  She guided his steps as
much as she could, building an Empire in his name.  Alas, the Dominator
was like a wild bull running through the streets - unpredictable, short
sighted, and pointlessly destructive.  At one point Lady points out how
wastful the Dominator was - destroying useful tools - when she tells
Croaker who he reminds her of and how the Dominator killed him.

I can also see the Dominator using Lady to referee the Taken.  For her
to do this effectively he might have given her the names of the Taken,
or at least told the Taken he'd given her the names.
I can also see Lady tricking (or forcing) the Taken into giving her
their names, or researching them herself.  Certainly she was no stranger
to the work she did with Croaker in book 3.


> >Alas, while we can debate this there is no way to find out the Truth.
> >When Cook was asked about another point that was debated on (who was the
> >third female Taken) his answer was he didn't know.  He'd either never
> >decided or had forgotten since it didn't play a role in the story.  Why
> >the Lady didn't name the Taken probably fits into the same catagory for
> >him.
>
> Who ever said that authors knew the Truth of their creations?  ;)
>

There's a lot of truth in that.  What's the old saying?
"When I wrote that only two people knew what it really meant, myself and
god.  Now that it's been published and countless people have added their
interpretation only god the true meaning."

> In any event, wizardry in the BC series is not particularly systematized,
> or at least not by the time of the stories.  There are hints that in
> Bomanz's day there may have been more system.  It's certainly a real
> headache trying to map BC sorcery onto an RPG system, I can tell you...
>

I see the Taken as each mastering a different sphere or school of
magic.  You never hear of Limper shifting shape or Shifter stealing
souls and Stormbringer is the ultimate in weather magic.  By bring all
those different schools together you would have a unite system of
sorcery.
Alas that system was a victim of the Dominator's fall as the victors
destroyed everything associated with his reign, to the point where
generations later a skilled wizard felt he had no choice but to call
upon the Taken directly to gain knowledge of magic.

> If everyone is running around with an individualized method of doing magic,
> Cook didn't *need* to develop a set system... but that doesn't mean it
> isn't possible to draw a few useful hypotheses.
>

Part of the problem is we don't see the magic system from the inside.
Goblin and One Eye might use the same words and guestures of power, but
use different antics to disguise the true source of their power.

Richard

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 18:40:11 -0700
From: Joe Murphy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: True Names [spoilers]

Richard Chilton wrote:

>
> >
>
> Part of the problem is we don't see the magic system from the inside.
> Goblin and One Eye might use the same words and guestures of power, but
> use different antics to disguise the true source of their power.
>
> Richard
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Actually, it is mentioned in BC or one of the other early books that they both
use different languages for spell casting, and neither understands the others.

 Murph

>
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Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:05:28 -0300
From: Richard Chilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: True Names [spoilers]

Joe Murphy wrote:
>
> Richard Chilton wrote:
>
> >
> > >
> >
> > Part of the problem is we don't see the magic system from the inside.
> > Goblin and One Eye might use the same words and guestures of power, but
> > use different antics to disguise the true source of their power.
> >
> > Richard
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>  Actually, it is mentioned in BC or one of the other early books that they both
> use different languages for spell casting, and neither understands the others.
>

Allow me to put it another way:
Many systems of magic (in books, games, etc) embrace the concept of
words of power.  The words often are not understood by the caster but
are the focus of the magic.  They aren't even real words most of the
time - just sounds that some how make the magic work.  Casters often
surround the important words and gestures with nonsense or words that
seem to have meaning to prevent others from stealing their spells, or
because they don't know which parts of the spell make it work.
For example, let's say huh is a word of power.  A chant might go
lalannanannllalaalHUHlalalaha while another chant might
nannannnaaaaHUHnananalala.  Both casters are invoking the power of the
word huh but neither would recognize it buried in the other's chant.
Both casters say their chants because that's what their teachers taught
them to say and sysbols around huh make sense in their different native
languages.
Say those two are Golbin and One Eye - both competitent casts but
neither picked as the genious of their generation.
If someone was to go through the various mystic chants of the different
traditions - say the Ten different traditions united under the Dominator
- - he could notice the word huh in all the chants and realize that it is
the word that powers the spell.  Armed with this, the researcher could
go to more complex spells, ones with several power words, and slowly
write a dictionary of what makes magic works.  Then while the half
trained witch doctor is trying to say 'lalannanannllalaalHUHlalalaha'
(blurring the huh sound a bit in his chant) the well trained sorcery
could just say 'huh' - welding the same power in less time.

The Dominator and Lady probably did during the Dominion - giving them
access to a great deal of magical knowledge.  People like the Howler
would want that knowledge which is why Lady was in so much danger.
Whoever got her got the best research of one of the more magical times
in the world.

I could be really off base here of course - power words aren't the only
system of magic that exist in fantasy, but they do fit the books closer
than the other ones.  Rare components don't appear to be sacrificed to
make most spells work; it doesn't look like most of the wizards deal
with other worldly entities for power (but that apperantly happens often
enough for Lady to recognize when it happens with her); wizards don't do
long, time comsuming rituals for most times; wizards don't spend forever
studying spells, nor do they live virtuous or sinful lives (at least not
more than others).

Then again, since no one ever ties to explain the magic system(s) we'll
never know how it works.

Richard

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Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:41:25 -0500
From: David Ainsworth <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) BC Magic system [potential spoilers]

At 08:05 PM 7/10/2002 -0300, Richard Chilton wrote:
>I could be really off base here of course - power words aren't the only
>system of magic that exist in fantasy, but they do fit the books closer
>than the other ones.  Rare components don't appear to be sacrificed to
>make most spells work; it doesn't look like most of the wizards deal
>with other worldly entities for power (but that apperantly happens often
>enough for Lady to recognize when it happens with her); wizards don't do
>long, time comsuming rituals for most times; wizards don't spend forever
>studying spells, nor do they live virtuous or sinful lives (at least not
>more than others).

Components are generally out, yes, although Silent gathers up a "component"
for the time he releases a swarm of bees on the Company's enemies.
Silent's ability also proves that there are alternate ways of accessing
magic--predominantly gestures--which are also seen used by some of the
Taken (Limper's wiggling fingers, for example).

One-Eye and Tom-Tom also seem to use totems as a source of power, following
a more shamanistic form of drawing power.  Tom-Tom's totem is obvious.
One-Eye's might well be his hat, which would explain a number of things, or
perhaps he voluntarily surrendered his eye to form a sort of negative token.

Layered enchantments very clearly require long rituals, at least for weaker
casters (witness One-Eye's spear), and I suspect that some ritual is
required for the more powerful.  Certainly, the Taken can't just whip up
some enchanted objects on the spur of the moment--they require time and
craft.  'Catcher's restoration also involves ritual, and Kina's magic seems
almost entirely grounded in it.  The enchantment Shadowspinner generates
during the fight for Dejagore is also clearly a layered spell generated
over an extended period of time.

The Taken certainly demonstrate specialization, but there's no evidence
that they couldn't use other magics if they knew them.  Shifter can
certainly do a number of things unconnected with changing shape.
Presumably, the more power a sorcerer possesses, the more he can accomplish
in a shorter period of time.  So the Circle require a bit of time to
generate some of their battle-magics, while the Dominator can throw off
powerful and complex magics in a matter of seconds.  I'm inclined to
suspect that magical "energy," however measured, is more of a factor than
knowledge, especially given that Lady later possesses the knowledge but
lacks the energy.  That would also explain why many of the truly powerful
wizards simply don't demonstrate any sense of subtlety--they just aren't
accustomed to needing it.

David

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End of glencook-fans-digest V1 #196
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