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From: owner-glencook-fans-digest@lists.xmission.com (glencook-fans-digest)
To: glencook-fans-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: glencook-fans-digest V1 #195
Reply-To: glencook-fans-digest
Sender: owner-glencook-fans-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-glencook-fans-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
glencook-fans-digest Tuesday, July 9 2002 Volume 01 : Number 195
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 03:20:14 -0500
From: Steve Harris <harrissg@slu.edu>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Re: True Names
Richard,
Spoiler for first three Black Company volumes...
....
...
...
....
....
Croaker sees Raven engraving something on a silver band around an arrow.
Asked about it, Raven says, "Fixing an arrow for the Limper. With his
true name on it. Catcher gave it to me."
But what is the effect of that arrow (and two others, not so special)?
It knocks the Limper over and shocks him sufficiently that Croaker can
kick his head and otherwise discommode him till Raven comes over and
ties him up, including cutting off some fingers. Between the two of
them, they keep him settled till Catcher shows up. But that certainly
wasn't a means of putting him down completely--not the way Silent did
the Lady at the end of "The White Rose".
Possibilities:
1) That wasn't, in fact, Limper's True Name (despite what Raven says
Catcher told him); it was just some charm that helped knock him for a
loop temporarily. (Maybe a fraction of his True Name?)
2) It takes a heckuva lot more than just the True Name to really take
down a powerful wizard. Presumably, Silence had been working a very
long time to make the proper ritual for taking down the Lady (needing
only to know which of the possible names to trigger the ritual); and
maybe even he wouldn't have had a chance, if the Lady had not just scant
seconds previously been deep inside Darling's null.
3) Limper gets a new True Name when he gets back in the Lady's good
graces (maybe he gets ReTaken? maybe that can include a new True Name?)
Steve
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 13:03:07 -0300
From: Richard Chilton <rchilton@auracom.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: True Names
Steve Harris wrote:
>
> Richard,
>
> Spoiler for first three Black Company volumes...
>
> ....
>
> ...
>
> ...
>
> ....
>
> ....
>
> Croaker sees Raven engraving something on a silver band around an arrow.
> Asked about it, Raven says, "Fixing an arrow for the Limper. With his
> true name on it. Catcher gave it to me."
>
Based on some of the interrogations the wizards have done I'd say there
is a good chance they could have gotten a look of Croaker's memories of
the ring.
> But what is the effect of that arrow (and two others, not so special)?
> It knocks the Limper over and shocks him sufficiently that Croaker can
> kick his head and otherwise discommode him till Raven comes over and
> ties him up, including cutting off some fingers. Between the two of
> them, they keep him settled till Catcher shows up. But that certainly
> wasn't a means of putting him down completely--not the way Silent did
> the Lady at the end of "The White Rose".
>
> Possibilities:
>
> 1) That wasn't, in fact, Limper's True Name (despite what Raven says
> Catcher told him); it was just some charm that helped knock him for a
> loop temporarily. (Maybe a fraction of his True Name?)
>
Just thought of another possibility - Soulcatcher may have lied to
Raven. Since most people don't know much about how magic works but do
know about the True Name bit Soulcatcher may have wieghed "It's a
Ironioal charm fashened over three decades designed to pierce someone's
magical protections - I was making it for use on the Lady before I
discovered Limper had my True Name" against "It's his True Name - put it
on your arrow and it will work better" and decided to keep things
simple.
> 2) It takes a heckuva lot more than just the True Name to really take
> down a powerful wizard. Presumably, Silence had been working a very
> long time to make the proper ritual for taking down the Lady (needing
> only to know which of the possible names to trigger the ritual); and
> maybe even he wouldn't have had a chance, if the Lady had not just scant
> seconds previously been deep inside Darling's null.
>
I can't see this one - it's clear throughout all the books that the
saying of the True Name is the end of a wizard's carreer, which is why
everyone who knew about magic was driven crazy wondering how Lady got
her powers back.
> 3) Limper gets a new True Name when he gets back in the Lady's good
> graces (maybe he gets ReTaken? maybe that can include a new True Name?)
>
Can't see this one working - partly because Lady never tried to get a
new True Name either while her husband was working his way through her
sisters' names or once she was named.
Part of me still thinks this is a little nitpick - something the author
lost track of. When you look at the size of the story it's surprising
that there aren't more little things like it. There were a few more,
but Cook handled them with "when X was writting X gave his point of
view", or "Lady lied about that bit", or "there are several different
meassurements being used - all called miles".
Blaming the narrator for little mistakes is one of the best saves there
is to cover the fact that most authors aren't nitpickers and it's hard
to maintain consistancy over long series. Fans might debate which of
the Taken were women but Cook doesn't give that a second thought. Since
he's not the type of author that writes huge amounts of world background
and constantly checks it while writting little things like this are
bound to crop up.
Richard
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 21:14:30 -0500
From: David Ainsworth <dbainswo@students.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) True Names Again (Black Company (first Novel) spoilers)
At 01:56 AM 7/7/2002 -0300, Richard Chilton wrote:
>This message has a couple of spoilers for the first novel of the Black
>Company series....
>.
>.
>.
>If you haven't read that book yet don't read below.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>If you haven't read that book yet I'd really recommend it
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>I've got two theories on why it was never used:
>
>1) The Lady took the name back during the Taking of Whisper. The after
>affects of the Eye, spells to make sure all witnesses (including
>Soulcatcher) forgot Whisper's True Name (which would have had to been
>part of the ritual) went too - whatever.
Given that by this point the Lady wants Limper to be secure from Catcher
"in case," this seems reasonable to me.
Let me add another possibility, though (#5?):
Raven states that Catcher gave him Limper's name to put on the arrow. The
arrow does indeed seem to penetrate his defenses, but it also catches him
by surprise (and ordinary weapons do seem to hack parts off of him when
he's not ready for them). There's no evidence beyond Catcher's word that
this name was accurate--and even if Catcher thought she knew Limper's true
name, she might have been wrong. Had the *Lady* provided Raven with the
arrow/name I'd be inclined to accept it without as much question.
My guess is that Catcher expected the Lady to destroy Limper, not Raven and
Croaker. Given the punishment Limper is capable of surviving in later
cases, I think Raven and Croaker are most ill-prepared to kill him, and
they're intentionally sent off that way.
If Catcher did learn Limper's name, I don't believe she shared it. Just
the sort of thing she'd do.
David
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 21:29:29 -0700
From: Joe Murphy <bagaele@netzero.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: True Names
True names and thier effect on wizards
It has been my thoughts that the naming of a wizard IN THE RITUAL OF NAMING
is sufficint to undo thier powers. I think the ritual is so basic and simple
because the name is all to the wizard. So stating the name would not do
much, ( Shadow games, near the end, apprentice forvalaka) but only if
uttered in the ritual.
I also wonder if it takes someone with power to do the ritual, as thier was
good reason for Lady to use a couple during Shadow games and she did not.
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 21:41:47 -0700
From: Joe Murphy <bagaele@netzero.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Timeline of the Domination and Resurrection
Spoilers for Silver Spike
.
.
...
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
...
.
.
.
I have often wondered about this topic. Although referenced in other
books, most info comes from Silver Spike and The White Rose.
The questions are "How long ago was the domination, how long were
they buried, when did they return?"
I cant decide which way to argue as thier is lots of evidence for 2
different ways to go.
BC states the reyrn was 2 turns of the comet ago (80 yrs) . But Bomanz
was young when he went to the barrowland, spent 40 years working, got
caught and returned ( so this would be 2 full cycles pus a wacky short
cycle [ 95 years?]). But its mentioned twice in Spike he is around 500
years old. It also mentions he is about 150.
I dont care which it is, but I do kind of wish that future Printings
have a small revision so the numbers kind of match.
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:45:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: Changeling <chnglng@FreeQ.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: True Names
Here's something that occured to me when I was having the discussion about
why Lady didn't use True Names against more people...maybe she didn't know
them. After all, if she had been able to Take the original Ten then they
wouldn't have risen up against her with the Dominator, right? But she
wasn't even sure of Soulcatcher's True Name. So why would she know anyone
else's?
My feeling is that the Dominator couldn't command the Ten because of the
magic in place around the barrow. So he was only able to influence the
ones that, on some level, wanted to be working for him. (Lady makes a
comment about it being the females but I think it's more complicated than
that)
We are shown time and again throughout the series that illusion is a
powerful weapon. And the illusion of knowledge can be a pretty useful
tool.
- -Matthew
On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Joe Murphy wrote:
> True names and thier effect on wizards
>
> It has been my thoughts that the naming of a wizard IN THE RITUAL OF NAMING
> is sufficint to undo thier powers. I think the ritual is so basic and simple
> because the name is all to the wizard. So stating the name would not do
> much, ( Shadow games, near the end, apprentice forvalaka) but only if
> uttered in the ritual.
>
> I also wonder if it takes someone with power to do the ritual, as thier was
> good reason for Lady to use a couple during Shadow games and she did not.
>
>
> =======================================================================
> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
**************************************************************************
* *
* It's that moment of dawning comprehension that I live for. *
* *
**************************************************************************
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 22:12:42 -0400
From: "Michael Higgins" <mike@huigin.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Print on Demand
To answer your questions, without putting you to sleep...
> Why do you say the quality is open to question? Have you seen
> your book in softcover? How does it compare with a standard paperback
> or trade paperback? Does the binding seem solid? How does the print
> font compare?
The 1stBooks paperback is superb. We loves it, my precious, we loves
it... However, 1stBooks is just one of a growing number of POD
publishers and I don't work for any of them. It is likely some of them
are fly by night shysters, putting out crappy work (or just taking the
money and disapearing) or loading the process down with hidden fees.
This was one of my problems with 1stBooks, and in truth it probably
would not have even come up if I hadn't been so overanxious to get this
thing into the works. I was careless, and I paid for it. Sort of like
life in a way.
I did disagree with the charge of $90 to rework the cover art because I
was not aware that their "suggested cover" was their "intended cover"
and that I had to pay to change it. If you'd like I could send you a
copy of their cover, and the final cover that incorporated my
suggestions into it. You'll notice a substantial difference, I think.
However, the final cover, and the print job and the heft of the book
were as good as anything you'll find on the mass market ALLTHOUGH the
book is somewhat larger. It's about an inch higher and a half-inch wider
that the paperbacks you ordinarily buy, but is smaller than the
softcover textbooks you sometimes find it necessary to obtain. The size
difference is not so great that you couldn't stick it in a bag, or a
jacket pocket to take with you to the beach, so that's good.
> Yes, I'd certainly buy the Dread Empire series in hardback
> if it was of good quality. Unfortunately, I don't think that Cook
> has those books in digital format.
a scanner and a Optical Text Recognition program, along with a good deal
of time, would solve that problem easily. I'd be willing to do it myself
if the books were still available, since I'm about to retire and I
figure on having a good deal of free time available.
> I see. So you set your own profit margins. Interesting. Is
> the base price based on the number of pages? What percentage does
> 1stbooks keep?
Actually, I'm not sure what the costs are based on. It runs about 2
cents a page, so far as I can tell, which is not bad for the quality of
the book.
> I checked Amazon and their price is considerably higher ($11)
> than the one on 1stbooks.com. Why is the difference so great?
You were able to get a listing from Amazon? You're better at this than I
am, dude. The difference is Amazon's cost and profit margin. 1stBooks is
like a wholesaler, Amazon is retail.
> Hopefully that will change.
Only if lots of people go out and buy a POD book. Like mine, for example...
Any other questions?
Mike Higgins (http://www.michaelhiggins.net)
- ---------------------------------
4 cents a page! That's all it'll cost you for your own paperback copy of
TELL NO TALES, a brand new SF novel of life in the Age of Terrorism
http://www.huigin.com/cardpage.html
- ---------------------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 19:20:03 -0700
From: Michael Llaneza <maserati@speakeasy.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: True Names
I do tech support for a living. I would bet MY True Name that any wizard
would take option B below.
Besides, when did Catcher *ever* tell the truth ?
Both Catcher and the Lady had diverse tactical reasons for making Raven
and Croaker *think* they had the Limper's Name.
Richard Chilton wrote:
>Just thought of another possibility - Soulcatcher may have lied to
>Raven. Since most people don't know much about how magic works but do
>know about the True Name bit Soulcatcher may have wieghed "It's a
>Ironioal charm fashened over three decades designed to pierce someone's
>magical protections - I was making it for use on the Lady before I
>discovered Limper had my True Name" against "It's his True Name - put it
>on your arrow and it will work better" and decided to keep things
>simple.
>
>
>
>
>
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 21:28:31 -0500 (CDT)
From: Changeling <chnglng@FreeQ.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: True Names
How about option C: When Lady Took Limper she basically remade him from
the ground up. Wouldn't it be possible for her to rename him at that
point? He's no longer the man he used to be, after all...
- -Matthew
On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Michael Llaneza wrote:
> I do tech support for a living. I would bet MY True Name that any wizard
> would take option B below.
>
> Besides, when did Catcher *ever* tell the truth ?
>
> Both Catcher and the Lady had diverse tactical reasons for making Raven
> and Croaker *think* they had the Limper's Name.
>
> Richard Chilton wrote:
>
> >Just thought of another possibility - Soulcatcher may have lied to
> >Raven. Since most people don't know much about how magic works but do
> >know about the True Name bit Soulcatcher may have wieghed "It's a
> >Ironioal charm fashened over three decades designed to pierce someone's
> >magical protections - I was making it for use on the Lady before I
> >discovered Limper had my True Name" against "It's his True Name - put it
> >on your arrow and it will work better" and decided to keep things
> >simple.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> =======================================================================
> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
**************************************************************************
* *
* It's that moment of dawning comprehension that I live for. *
* *
**************************************************************************
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 19:43:01 -0700
From: Michael Llaneza <maserati@speakeasy.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: True Names
I'll always consider an Option C.
Changeling wrote:
>How about option C: When Lady Took Limper she basically remade him from
>the ground up. Wouldn't it be possible for her to rename him at that
>point? He's no longer the man he used to be, after all...
>
>-Matthew
>
>On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Michael Llaneza wrote:
>
>
>
>>I do tech support for a living. I would bet MY True Name that any wizard
>>would take option B below.
>>
>>Besides, when did Catcher *ever* tell the truth ?
>>
>>Both Catcher and the Lady had diverse tactical reasons for making Raven
>>and Croaker *think* they had the Limper's Name.
>>
>>
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 20:22:38 -0700
From: Brooke Wheeler <BrookeAWheeler@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: True Names
Heh! As in:
Format complete.
Volume label (11 characters, ENTER for none)?
Now you got me laughing. Thanks for that image. :-)
chnglng@FreeQ.com wrote:
>How about option C: When Lady Took Limper she basically remade him from
>the ground up. Wouldn't it be possible for her to rename him at that
>point? He's no longer the man he used to be, after all...
>
>-Matthew
>
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 22:39:19 -0500
From: David Bricker <qmorris@nasw.org>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: True Names
I'm seeing a 5.25" floppy with clay legs, straw arms, and a volleyball
(painted with blood of course) for a head.
And he's *still* a badass.
D
> From: Brooke Wheeler <BrookeAWheeler@netscape.net>
> Reply-To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 20:22:38 -0700
> To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: True Names
>
> Heh! As in:
>
> Format complete.
> Volume label (11 characters, ENTER for none)?
>
> Now you got me laughing. Thanks for that image. :-)
>
>
> chnglng@FreeQ.com wrote:
>
>> How about option C: When Lady Took Limper she basically remade him from
>> the ground up. Wouldn't it be possible for her to rename him at that
>> point? He's no longer the man he used to be, after all...
>>
>> -Matthew
>>
>
>
>
> =======================================================================
> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 21:13:00 -0700
From: Michael Llaneza <maserati@speakeasy.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: True Names
8" Winchester cartridge. 10 MB of attitude, tough enough to whack
someone with.
David Bricker wrote:
>I'm seeing a 5.25" floppy with clay legs, straw arms, and a volleyball
>(painted with blood of course) for a head.
>
>And he's *still* a badass.
>
>D
>
>
>
>
>
>>From: Brooke Wheeler <BrookeAWheeler@netscape.net>
>>Reply-To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
>>Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 20:22:38 -0700
>>To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
>>Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: True Names
>>
>>Heh! As in:
>>
>>Format complete.
>>Volume label (11 characters, ENTER for none)?
>>
>>Now you got me laughing. Thanks for that image. :-)
>>
>>
>>chnglng@FreeQ.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>How about option C: When Lady Took Limper she basically remade him from
>>>the ground up. Wouldn't it be possible for her to rename him at that
>>>point? He's no longer the man he used to be, after all...
>>>
>>>-Matthew
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>=======================================================================
>>To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>>visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>>
>>
>
>
>=======================================================================
> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
>
>
>
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 21:59:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Robert Tygers <robotchas@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) True Names Again Black Company Spoilers
I think the explanation is pretty obvious: the Lady
mindwiped Croaker and Raven after Taking Whisper. They
were both under the Eye, and Croaker says "some days
disappeared" and "what I could not remember could not
be used against her." And she had probably decided to
rehabilitate the Limper, or at least give herself that
option. Thus, take the Name back.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free
http://sbc.yahoo.com
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 00:14:29 -0500 (CDT)
From: Changeling <chnglng@FreeQ.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) True Names Again Black Company Spoilers
Of course, now that we've talked about re-formating the Taken it's time to
discuss what OS is installed. Probably some version of Linux...although
the way that the baby Taken (the ones that Lady created) crash when she
loses her power would suggest Windows XP in it's "get permission from Big
Sister to execute this prog^H^H^H^Hspell" methodology...
- -Matthew
**************************************************************************
* *
* It's that moment of dawning comprehension that I live for. *
* *
**************************************************************************
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 23:39:21 -0600
From: Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) True Names Again Black Company Spoilers
on 7/8/02 11:14 PM, Changeling at chnglng@FreeQ.com wrote:
> Of course, now that we've talked about re-formating the Taken it's time to
> discuss what OS is installed. Probably some version of Linux...although
> the way that the baby Taken (the ones that Lady created) crash when she
> loses her power would suggest Windows XP in it's "get permission from Big
> Sister to execute this prog^H^H^H^Hspell" methodology...
Linux?!? I wouldn't think that Wizards would support OpenSource.
Wouldn't she have had to make the source as well as any modifications that
she made to the Taken available to the community?
I'd say some sort of ancient, proprietary OS with a small market share that
runs on fairly generic hardware. I'm thinking something like NetWare.
- --
Eric Herrmann
<shpshftr@xmission.com>
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 14:37:25 -0300
From: Richard Chilton <rchilton@auracom.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: True Names
Changeling wrote:
>
> Here's something that occured to me when I was having the discussion about
> why Lady didn't use True Names against more people...maybe she didn't know
> them. After all, if she had been able to Take the original Ten then they
> wouldn't have risen up against her with the Dominator, right? But she
> wasn't even sure of Soulcatcher's True Name. So why would she know anyone
> else's?
Think of True Names as the ultimate weapon. The biggie. You can use it
once against an enemy as he's gone.
Looking at the long term, which would most power mad sorcerers have:
1) a dead enemy
2) a defeated enemy who's now a useful tool who knows that at any time
you can kill him.
Most people who have the drive to become one of the Taken would pick
option 2.
Based on what's in the books the Dominator had enough power and
knowledge to Take 10 of the 11 top wizards of his day, and if he had his
way there would have been the 11 Who Were Taken. Instead Lady was a
near equal he was forced to ally with.
Not his equal of course. The Lady knew that one on one she couldn't
beat him. He probably could have killed her one on one and with the Ten
behind him she wouldn't have stood a ghost of chance, but he didn't. He
keep the option of Takening her open and made her a useful tool in his
Empire.
When she had her power the Lady didn't have to name any of the Ten, and
once she lost her power she saw the remaining Taken as tools she could
manipulate to do things she could no longer do.
Then again maybe she was bluffing or just thought she knew the True
Names and wouldn't bet her life on it. After all the Dominator didn't
know her True Name and his failure to name her cost him everything.
As for Soulcatcher, one of the books explains why the two of them never
named each other. They were sisters and a web of sorcery protected each
from the other - I'm thinking a "if you do any to cause her to be named
you lose your powers too" type deal. The protections around them
explain why Lady needed Croaker to strike down Soulcatcher with a sword
- - Lady could have used spells to solve that problem but doing so would
trigger that ancient web of sorcery.
> We are shown time and again throughout the series that illusion is a
> powerful weapon. And the illusion of knowledge can be a pretty useful
> tool.
>
I agree - it could have been a bluff.
At least for the Ten - Lady must have held True Names of the new Taken
to bind their power to hers....
Which reminds me of the scene where Lady is Name, all the new Taken lose
their powers, but all the Old Taken keep theirs.
Alas, while we can debate this there is no way to find out the Truth.
When Cook was asked about another point that was debated on (who was the
third female Taken) his answer was he didn't know. He'd either never
decided or had forgotten since it didn't play a role in the story. Why
the Lady didn't name the Taken probably fits into the same catagory for
him.
Richard
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End of glencook-fans-digest V1 #195
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