ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/glencook-fans/archive/v01.n194

Internet Message Format | 2002-07-07 | 21KB

From: [e-mail] (glencook-fans-digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: glencook-fans-digest V1 #194
Reply-To: glencook-fans-digest
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk


glencook-fans-digest       Sunday, July 7 2002       Volume 01 : Number 194




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 01:56:45 -0300
From: Richard Chilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) True Names Again (Black Company (first Novel) spoilers)

This message has a couple of spoilers for the first novel of the Black
Company series....
.
.
.
If you haven't read that book yet don't read below.
.
.
.
.
If you haven't read that book yet I'd really recommend it
.
.
.
.
.
I was recently re-reading the first Black Company book, and after I
re-read one passage I started wondering about True Names again.
No, this isn't a reopening of the "If Lady knew all their True Names why
didn't she use X's when..." bit, but something I'd forgotten about
during those debates.
In the chapter entitled "Whisper" we see the first (and probably best)
of the new Taken being Taken.  We also have two (or more) people
learning the True Name of one of the Taken.
Raven carved the Limper's True Name on an arrow.
Croaker saw the True Name on the arrow.
Possibly some of the company wizards saw the arrow, maybe they didn't,
but Croaker knew (and recorded) that he'd seen it.  With all the help
the wizards gave during interrogations you'd think one of them could
have helped Croaker remember the name, so why didn't the company use it?

Then again the Limper was gone right after it was learned.  Then he was
'a friend' who they watched for signs of mistrust.  It strikes me that
the company would have recovered his name during that period, and having
it would have made the fight at the end of book 2 much easier.
Falling that there were a couple of times during book 3 when it would
have been useful.

I've got two theories on why it was never used:

1) The Lady took the name back during the Taking of Whisper.  The after
affects of the Eye, spells to make sure all witnesses (including
Soulcatcher) forgot Whisper's True Name (which would have had to been
part of the ritual) went too - whatever.

2) Cook forgot about it.  This could be - after all it's a minor point
during that chapter (the major ones being the Limper going down and
Whisper being Taken).  It's like the mass rape and murder - something
easily forgotten.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Richard

=======================================================================
 To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
 visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 08:19:31 -0700
From: Joe Murphy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) True Names Again (Black Company (first Novel)  spoilers)

Richard Chilton wrote:

> This message has a couple of spoilers for the first novel of the Black
> Company series....
> .
> .
> .
> .....We also have two (or more) people
> learning the True Name of one of the Taken.
> Raven carved the Limper's True Name on an arrow.
> Croaker saw the True Name on the arrow.
> ---------------------------------------
> ---------------------------------------------

 Ok, so so we have Croaker seeing the arrow. But did he see the name itself?
And was it in a language he understood? I always had the impression ( please
dont ask why, I just visualized it this way) that he was standing back a few
feet rather than looking over Ravens shoulder. So he never got the name
himself.

 Well, thats my thoughts.
 [e-mail]



=======================================================================
 To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
 visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 10:20:44 -0500
From: David Bricker <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) True Names Again (Black Company (first Novel) spoilers)

Good discussion.

I'm 99% sure Croaker neither read nor wrote Kelle-Turre, the language in
which Raven would have written Limper's name.





> From: Joe Murphy <[e-mail]>
> Reply-To: [e-mail]
> Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 08:19:31 -0700
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) True Names Again (Black Company (first Novel)
> spoilers)
>
>
>
> Richard Chilton wrote:
>
>> This message has a couple of spoilers for the first novel of the Black
>> Company series....
>> .
>> .
>> .
>> .....We also have two (or more) people
>> learning the True Name of one of the Taken.
>> Raven carved the Limper's True Name on an arrow.
>> Croaker saw the True Name on the arrow.
>> ---------------------------------------
>> ---------------------------------------------
>
> Ok, so so we have Croaker seeing the arrow. But did he see the name itself?
> And was it in a language he understood? I always had the impression ( please
> dont ask why, I just visualized it this way) that he was standing back a few
> feet rather than looking over Ravens shoulder. So he never got the name
> himself.
>
> Well, thats my thoughts.
> [e-mail]
>
>
>
> =======================================================================
> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.


=======================================================================
 To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
 visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 16:46:01 -0300
From: Richard Chilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) True Names Again (Black Company (first Novel)  spoilers)

Note - the spoilers now include the three books of the north and The
Silver Spike.


Joe Murphy wrote:
>
> Richard Chilton wrote:
>
> > This message has a couple of spoilers for the first novel of the Black
> > Company series....
> > .
> > .
> > .
> > .....We also have two (or more) people
> > learning the True Name of one of the Taken.
> > Raven carved the Limper's True Name on an arrow.
> > Croaker saw the True Name on the arrow.
> > ---------------------------------------
> > ---------------------------------------------
>
>  Ok, so so we have Croaker seeing the arrow. But did he see the name itself?
> And was it in a language he understood? I always had the impression ( please
> dont ask why, I just visualized it this way) that he was standing back a few
> feet rather than looking over Ravens shoulder. So he never got the name
> himself.
>

He might not have known the language at the time, but it was one of the
things he studied in his attempts to decode Whisper's papers.

How well did he see it?  Well enough to know what it was.

It might just be me, but I see Silent, Goblin, and One-Eye working out
some kind of memory inhancement spell so they could find the symbols and
learn the name - if the three hadn't tried to learn it during the during
the lead up to the ambush in the woods.  The three knew enough of what
was going on to make the amulet, and I'm guessing if Goblin had said
"Raven, just in case things go to hell out there can you tell me the
Limber's True Name and I'll make sure he follows you to hell" Raven
would have covered his bets.  With the bad blood between them I can see
the Captain wanting his wizards to know Limper's True Name.

For that matter, when Croaker warned Raven that the Limper was back I
can see Raven making sure that either Croaker or Silent knew that name.

During the second book I can see Raven teaching the Name to Darling.

It's been a while since I read the third book, but unless my time line
is off Raven would have known the Limper was back before he did his
wanderings in the Barrowlands.  Based off all the hatred there I can't
see him know sending a letter immediately to Croaker saying "By the way,
the Limper's real name is... - get that bastard!"
Then again I could be wrong - maybe Raven didn't hear of the Limper's
return before he was trapped.

The only time I can't see Raven passing on that name is during The
Silver Spike - during that book I can him holding that info in reserve
so he can do a dramatic save the day naming at the end again.

But I'd say there are a few more options explaining what happened:
3) Croaker and Raven didn't see the name in a form they could speak.
The symbols weren't any they could pronounce.  Carve yes, speak no.
4) It wasn't the True Name - Raven was working magic (a bit like Goblin
and One-Eye's spear) and didn't want Croaker to know.
5) Croaker lied - thought it was dramatic for Raven to have the True
Name so put in the story.
6) Croaker did see the name but the Wizards couldn't get it out of him
in a form they could use and Raven didn't think to pass it on during
book 1 or 2, and was 'lost' before hearing the Limper resurfaced in Book
3.

Personally I still think the answer is 2 - Cook either forgot about it
or ignored for drama.  Raven having the Limper's True Name is very
dramatic.  His 'Just a warning between friends - Soulcatcher has your
name' bit was a high point of the chapter (and helped fill in a few
pieces of Raven's background), but once Limper became the unstopable
villian having someone name him would have destroyed the drama.

Just my thoughts,

Richard

=======================================================================
 To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
 visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 16:56:42 -0300
From: Richard Chilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) True Names Again (Black Company (first  Novel)spoilers)

Spoiler for book three included here....



David Bricker wrote:
>
> Good discussion.
>
> I'm 99% sure Croaker neither read nor wrote Kelle-Turre, the language in
> which Raven would have written Limper's name.
>


Probably not...

But, just thinking out loud, when Croaker was working witrh Tracker in
the Hole - openly searching for the Dominator's name while keeping an
eye open for the Lady's - he could have written the name out for Tracker
and asked Tracker to translate it, using Tracker the way he did when the
Lady's voice caught while reading.

While I think it was just a 'whoops' on Cook's part I still feel that
the Black Company is one of the tight series I've read when it comes to
avoiding inconstancies.  Considering the length of time between the
first and last book, add in the fact that Cook probably didn't think
passed the third when he started (and might not have even thought that
far ahead considering it started off as short stories) the books hang
amazingly well together.  I can't think of another series that is made
up of multiple series that fits together as well the Black Company does.

Richard

> > From: Joe Murphy <[e-mail]>
> > Reply-To: [e-mail]
> > Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 08:19:31 -0700
> > To: [e-mail]
> > Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) True Names Again (Black Company (first Novel)
> > spoilers)
> >
> >
> >
> > Richard Chilton wrote:
> >
> >> This message has a couple of spoilers for the first novel of the Black
> >> Company series....
> >> .
> >> .
> >> .
> >> .....We also have two (or more) people
> >> learning the True Name of one of the Taken.
> >> Raven carved the Limper's True Name on an arrow.
> >> Croaker saw the True Name on the arrow.
> >> ---------------------------------------
> >> ---------------------------------------------
> >
> > Ok, so so we have Croaker seeing the arrow. But did he see the name itself?
> > And was it in a language he understood? I always had the impression ( please
> > dont ask why, I just visualized it this way) that he was standing back a few
> > feet rather than looking over Ravens shoulder. So he never got the name
> > himself.
> >
> > Well, thats my thoughts.
> > [e-mail]
> >
> >
> >
> > =======================================================================
> > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.

=======================================================================
 To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
 visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 16:31:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Craig Dutton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) True Names Again (Black Company (first Novel)  spoilers)

- --- Richard Chilton <[e-mail]> wrote:
...

> For that matter, when Croaker warned Raven that the Limper was back I
> can see Raven making sure that either Croaker or Silent knew that name.

I can't.  That's completely against Raven's MO.  People tell Raven things,
usually not the other way around unless he has absolutely no choice.  To give
them the name, Raven would have to admit to others that he thought someone
would beat him... not very likely.

The 'wouldn't he tell Darling' argument has the same flaw.  Raven telling
Darling assumes he is prepping her for life post-Raven, when indications are
his decision to drop her in BC hands came out of nowhere.

Not that Cook might not have forgotten (or deliberately left it out to avoid
short circuiting the plot), but there are plausible reasons for that not to be
the case.

The problem with my theory is why Raven doesn't nail Limper with his True Name
in Spike, but the spell/ritual to use the Name may have limitations unspecified
in the texts.

Craig


______________________________________________________________________
Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

=======================================================================
 To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
 visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 17:53:56 -0300
From: Richard Chilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) True Names Again (Black Company (first Novel)   spoilers)

Craig Dutton wrote:
>
> --- Richard Chilton <[e-mail]> wrote:
> ...
>
> > For that matter, when Croaker warned Raven that the Limper was back I
> > can see Raven making sure that either Croaker or Silent knew that name.
>
> I can't.  That's completely against Raven's MO.  People tell Raven things,
> usually not the other way around unless he has absolutely no choice.  To give
> them the name, Raven would have to admit to others that he thought someone
> would beat him... not very likely.
>

But he is a sneaky guy.  I can see him wanting everyone to know his
biggest enemy's weakness - especially when he's about to go on the
run....
Then again that would have gotten the Lady thinking about Whisper's
papers.  Keeping quiet about that might have out wieghted all other
concerns.

> The 'wouldn't he tell Darling' argument has the same flaw.  Raven telling
> Darling assumes he is prepping her for life post-Raven, when indications are
> his decision to drop her in BC hands came out of nowhere.
>

I can see him preparing her to handle things after he died defending him
- - because he would have seen that as a likely outcome.  Maybe he assumed
they'd die together?
Then again he was doing a lot of dirty work but keeping her out of it so
her hands would be clean.  Maybe this was just one more thing he was
keeping her protected from.

> The problem with my theory is why Raven doesn't nail Limper with his True Name
> in Spike, but the spell/ritual to use the Name may have limitations unspecified
> in the texts.
>

This is the situation I have the least problem explaining.
When the Limper came back Raven didn't tell anyone his name because then
they, not him, would use it.
He didn't use it because he didn't have a dramatic chance to use it.

Those battles with the Limper on the road were distant ones.  Darling
wasn't directly involved, so couldn't have seen Raven save the day, so
he didn't save it.  He was waiting for Darling's final plan to fail,
then as the Limper walked unstopable through the rain of missles and
spells Raven would have stood in front of Darling and saved her by
naming the Limper.
Maybe it would have been after Silent was dead, maybe not, but he would
have done it to save Darling and Darling would have loved him again and
everything would have been OK.  He would once more be Raven, champion of
the White Rose, and not a broken man who'd become a drunkard after
abandoming his family.

Why do I think this?  His actions at the end of book three and Darling's
reactions to them.  She knew him better than he knew himself.

Richard

=======================================================================
 To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
 visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 01:22:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: [e-mail] (Steve Chew)
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Print on Demand

Mike,
    Thanks for the info -- it's very interesting to see a first person
perspective into today's world of print on demand.


>
>Yes, Cooks books would do very well with a POD publisher like
>1stBooks.com and I have allready recommended to another person with
>control of the rights to a deceased author's works that she consider
>that route to keep his works in print for all time (or at least until
>electrons stop spinning).
>
>Simply put, you pay the POD publisher a fee to put your book in a format
>of your choice. This could be a .pdf ebook or some other ebook format
>depending on the POD company---1stBooks apparently uses only .pdf Adobe
>files because of the penetration of Adobe Acrobat into just about every
>damn computer in the world. There are also softcover and hardcover
>formats available most places, but the quality is open to question.
>
    Why do you say the quality is open to question?  Have you seen
your book in softcover?  How does it compare with a standard paperback
or trade paperback?  Does the binding seem solid?  How does the print
font compare?


>My
>book, TELL NO TALES, appears in .pdf and softcover format on the
>1stBooks page (http://www.1stBooks.com/bookview/9922) but I opted
>against the hardcover because I considered it would be too costly to
>sell. This would most likely not be a problem for Cook, since his fans
>would undoubtedly buy whatever he published in whatever format he chose.
>
    Yes, I'd certainly buy the Dread Empire series in hardback
if it was of good quality.  Unfortunately, I don't think that Cook
has those books in digital format.


>
>1stBooks sends you a notice explaining what the base price of the book
>has to be to cover the setup costs and you, as the author, determine the
>final price depending on your selfconfidence and the liklihood of your
>book generating a demand.
>
    I see.  So you set your own profit margins.  Interesting.  Is
the base price based on the number of pages?  What percentage does
1stbooks keep?


>The books are available direct from 1stBooks.com and also through
>Amazon, Barnes and Noble and Borders, as well as other individual and
>chain bookstores.
>
    I checked Amazon and their price is considerably higher ($11)
than the one on 1stbooks.com.  Why is the difference so great?


>They are available, but you will have to ORDER them,
>as they are printed to order, and that can be a problem since many of
>the store clerks haven't a clue what POD is all about. They will tell
>you the book is out of print (duh, of course it is--it won't be printed
>until you order it) or unavailable (which is outright wrong). You have
>to insist and if you do, lo and behold, the system will take the order.
>
    Hopefully that will change.


>
>So, Glen Cook and POD? A natural, same as it would be for A.E.Van Vogt
>or Cordwainer Smith or Roger Zelazny or any of the giants of the field
>(IMHO) that are now hard to find, and increasingly little known. Can we
>persuade people like Cook to go this route? Hardly likely, until they
>are backlisted out of the field by the growth of the megapublishers who
>can only justify sure and certain blockbusters like Stephen King and Tom
>Clancy to the folks who look only to the bottom line.
>
    I think that the main problem would be getting those older books
into a format that can be used.  That shouldn't be as much of an issue
for today's authors.

                Steve



=======================================================================
 To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
 visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.

------------------------------

End of glencook-fans-digest V1 #194
***********************************

=======================================================================
 To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
 visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.