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From: owner-glencook-fans-digest@lists.xmission.com (glencook-fans-digest) To: glencook-fans-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: glencook-fans-digest V1 #179 Reply-To: glencook-fans-digest Sender: owner-glencook-fans-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-glencook-fans-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk glencook-fans-digest Monday, April 29 2002 Volume 01 : Number 179 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 22:41:36 +1100 From: JC <jackland@mail.ru> Subject: Re[2]: (glencook-fans) Print on Demand >>> But, in the long run, I think that they would benefit much more by >>>making such conveniences available. As we see continually on this list, >>>people want the out of print Glen Cook books. They're willing to pay for >>>them, sometimes pay outrageously. This is true for virtually all authors >>>-- their fans want their stuff. This is an untapped market that could be >>>filled by print on demand. There has to be millions of dollars in sales >>>potential there. >>> Unfortunately, the major publishers are afraid that they might be >>>obsolete if you could just ask Borders to print out the books that you >>>were interested in -- they're right to a certain extent. Also, they >>>realize that it will cost them millions of dollars to put all of their out- >>>of-print books into a format that could be printed on demand. I imagine >>>that most pre-1990 books aren't even available in a useful electronic >>>format. If someone could come up with a system that could take the old >>>formats and make them printable on demand then that would be a step in the >>>right direction. Still, I don't see most of them overcoming their fear. >>>Instead most will be replaced by new companies and a few old ones that >>>adapt. >>> >>> How could we help to get authors like Cook published via online >>>or print on demand methods? >>> >>> By the way, Eric Flint an author with Baen Books has published >>>some very interesting articles about online publishing (see >>>http://www.baen.com/library/). Baen Books has made some of their >>>titles available online for free as an experiment to see if that would >>>help or hurt their actual sales. Flint has an article discussing his >>>experiences regarding the number of books sold of the ones he had placed >>>online (http://www.baen.com/library/palaver6.htm). It has some surprising >>>and interesting reading. Perhaps it would be an option for Cook. >>> >> >>If Baen's experiment succedes we should start bugging TOR about doing >>something similar, especialy for Glen's books. Glen is basically writing >>for the joy and art of it anyway (unless his sales numbers are way up >>since Tower of Fear) so he shouldn't mind too much, especially since >>Eric Flint seems to be selling more books now that he's giving some >>away. Baen did hit on two very clever ideas for their free library: give >>away the first books in a series (James Schmitz has a terrific SF >>anthology available) and epublish in several formats including HTML. >> SC> Yes. Judging from his initial numbers it appears that it SC> is successful. It will be interesting to see the numbers that he SC> said he'll be publishing for David Drake and Mercedes Lackey to see SC> whether their experiences jive with his. He mentions that along with SC> a number of other interesting info in this article: SC> http://www.baen.com/library/palaver7.htm SC> That same article undermines my thoughts on the likelihood SC> of print on demand becoming useful for mass produced books. However, SC> I still think that print on demand and certainly online publishing SC> will make sense for out of print books in the long run. If, as Flint SC> says, most of the cost is in the book preparation then it will make SC> sense to retain the book "in print" via online means since that will SC> be cheap to do and will increase author recognition. SC> Steve Most books in Russia published in free online libraries. Russian publishers and authors don't afraid that. If I read book on-line and it's like me, I buy it. And most russian readers do it too. Sorry fir bad english. - -- Best regards, Konstantin mailto:jackland@mail.ru ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 22:41:27 +1100 From: JC <jackland@mail.ru> Subject: Re[2]: (glencook-fans) Print on Demand >>> But, in the long run, I think that they would benefit much more by >>>making such conveniences available. As we see continually on this list, >>>people want the out of print Glen Cook books. They're willing to pay for >>>them, sometimes pay outrageously. This is true for virtually all authors >>>-- their fans want their stuff. This is an untapped market that could be >>>filled by print on demand. There has to be millions of dollars in sales >>>potential there. >>> Unfortunately, the major publishers are afraid that they might be >>>obsolete if you could just ask Borders to print out the books that you >>>were interested in -- they're right to a certain extent. Also, they >>>realize that it will cost them millions of dollars to put all of their out- >>>of-print books into a format that could be printed on demand. I imagine >>>that most pre-1990 books aren't even available in a useful electronic >>>format. If someone could come up with a system that could take the old >>>formats and make them printable on demand then that would be a step in the >>>right direction. Still, I don't see most of them overcoming their fear. >>>Instead most will be replaced by new companies and a few old ones that >>>adapt. >>> >>> How could we help to get authors like Cook published via online >>>or print on demand methods? >>> >>> By the way, Eric Flint an author with Baen Books has published >>>some very interesting articles about online publishing (see >>>http://www.baen.com/library/). Baen Books has made some of their >>>titles available online for free as an experiment to see if that would >>>help or hurt their actual sales. Flint has an article discussing his >>>experiences regarding the number of books sold of the ones he had placed >>>online (http://www.baen.com/library/palaver6.htm). It has some surprising >>>and interesting reading. Perhaps it would be an option for Cook. >>> >> >>If Baen's experiment succedes we should start bugging TOR about doing >>something similar, especialy for Glen's books. Glen is basically writing >>for the joy and art of it anyway (unless his sales numbers are way up >>since Tower of Fear) so he shouldn't mind too much, especially since >>Eric Flint seems to be selling more books now that he's giving some >>away. Baen did hit on two very clever ideas for their free library: give >>away the first books in a series (James Schmitz has a terrific SF >>anthology available) and epublish in several formats including HTML. >> SC> Yes. Judging from his initial numbers it appears that it SC> is successful. It will be interesting to see the numbers that he SC> said he'll be publishing for David Drake and Mercedes Lackey to see SC> whether their experiences jive with his. He mentions that along with SC> a number of other interesting info in this article: SC> http://www.baen.com/library/palaver7.htm SC> That same article undermines my thoughts on the likelihood SC> of print on demand becoming useful for mass produced books. However, SC> I still think that print on demand and certainly online publishing SC> will make sense for out of print books in the long run. If, as Flint SC> says, most of the cost is in the book preparation then it will make SC> sense to retain the book "in print" via online means since that will SC> be cheap to do and will increase author recognition. SC> Steve Most books in Russia published in free online libraries. Russian publishers and authors don't afraid that. If I read book on-line and it's like me, I buy it. And most russian readers do it too. Sorry fir bad english. - -- Best regards, Konstantin mailto:jackland@mail.ru ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 09:43:07 -0600 From: "Amy Weathers" <raistlin@zianet.com> Subject: (glencook-fans) Re: Where to find Glen Cook I'm pretty sure I've posted this before, but at any rate, ebay always has a fairly good selection of Glen Cook books. Currently there are quite a few different Garret Files books (no Deadly Quicksilver Lies today), as well as a Dragon Never Sleeps and Heirs of Babylon. You can usually find the cool hard back Black Company book that contains the first three stories too. Hope this helps. Amy ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 09:49:04 -0600 From: "Amy Weathers" <raistlin@zianet.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: Where to find Glen Cook (deadly quicksliver lies) Sorry for the two posts in a row, but I did just notice that there is a Deadly Quicksilver Lies on Ebay for a buck (plus S/H). Can't beat that. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1533664685 Ok, back to my lurking. Amy ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 10:06:49 -0700 From: Pat & Ellen Hannum <hanmac@qwest.net> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Deadly quicksilver lies - --------------D97D0F15C150FE2255A6042E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, Try your LFUBS or Amazon Pat don wrote: > Anybody know if this book is still in print. It is keeping me from > moving on in the series. Don > "In time, what's deserved always gets served"- COC - -- - ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/free_video/ - --------------D97D0F15C150FE2255A6042E Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> Yes, Try your LFUBS or Amazon Pat don wrote: <blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style> Anybody know if this book is still in print. It is keeping me from moving on in the series. Don "In time, what's deserved always gets served"- COC</blockquote> -- ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! <A HREF="http://www.gohip.com/free_video/">http://www.gohip.com/free_video/</A> </body> </html> - --------------D97D0F15C150FE2255A6042E-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 12:28:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Dennis Knaggs <dennisknaggs@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Print on Demand I think publishing companies will eventually move to e-books and print on demand to get themselves out of the trap they've created with their return policies. If a retailer wishes to return a paperback book they simply rip the cover off and send the cover back. I worked in the receiving department of an office supply store and we would do this with computer books. Often, the book had never been placed on display because we didn't have room for it. I've seen estimates that a good sell through on a paperback book is 50% of what's actually manufactured. This means that the price of a paperback book must cover the printing of at least two copies. This especially affects lesser known authors such as Cook, because if the bookstores have to choose whether to put out a well known author that is guaranteed to sell, or a lesser known author such as Cook in the available space, the Cook book will be returned. If Cook is only achieving a sell through rate of 25%, the price of the book has to cover printing 4 copies of it. Since the publishing company needs to keep the price competitive, it doesn't make as much money on these books and are less likely to publish an author who hasn't done well in the past. E-books or print on demand eliminate the extra printing cost and would make lesser known authors more profitable and therefore more attractive to the publishers. Dennis - --- Steve Chew <schew@interzone.com> wrote: > >> But, in the long run, I think that they would > benefit much more by > >>making such conveniences available. As we see > continually on this list, > >>people want the out of print Glen Cook books. > They're willing to pay for > >>them, sometimes pay outrageously. This is true > for virtually all authors > >>-- their fans want their stuff. This is an > untapped market that could be > >>filled by print on demand. There has to be > millions of dollars in sales > >>potential there. > >> Unfortunately, the major publishers are afraid > that they might be > >>obsolete if you could just ask Borders to print > out the books that you > >>were interested in -- they're right to a certain > extent. Also, they > >>realize that it will cost them millions of dollars > to put all of their out- > >>of-print books into a format that could be printed > on demand. I imagine > >>that most pre-1990 books aren't even available in > a useful electronic > >>format. If someone could come up with a system > that could take the old > >>formats and make them printable on demand then > that would be a step in the > >>right direction. Still, I don't see most of them > overcoming their fear. > >>Instead most will be replaced by new companies and > a few old ones that > >>adapt. > >> > >> How could we help to get authors like Cook > published via online > >>or print on demand methods? > >> > >> By the way, Eric Flint an author with Baen Books > has published > >>some very interesting articles about online > publishing (see > >>http://www.baen.com/library/). Baen Books has > made some of their > >>titles available online for free as an experiment > to see if that would > >>help or hurt their actual sales. Flint has an > article discussing his > >>experiences regarding the number of books sold of > the ones he had placed > >>online (http://www.baen.com/library/palaver6.htm). > It has some surprising > >>and interesting reading. Perhaps it would be an > option for Cook. > >> > > > >If Baen's experiment succedes we should start > bugging TOR about doing > >something similar, especialy for Glen's books. Glen > is basically writing > >for the joy and art of it anyway (unless his sales > numbers are way up > >since Tower of Fear) so he shouldn't mind too much, > especially since > >Eric Flint seems to be selling more books now that > he's giving some > >away. Baen did hit on two very clever ideas for > their free library: give > >away the first books in a series (James Schmitz has > a terrific SF > >anthology available) and epublish in several > formats including HTML. > > > Yes. Judging from his initial numbers it appears > that it > is successful. It will be interesting to see the > numbers that he > said he'll be publishing for David Drake and > Mercedes Lackey to see > whether their experiences jive with his. He > mentions that along with > a number of other interesting info in this article: > http://www.baen.com/library/palaver7.htm > That same article undermines my thoughts on the > likelihood > of print on demand becoming useful for mass produced > books. However, > I still think that print on demand and certainly > online publishing > will make sense for out of print books in the long > run. If, as Flint > says, most of the cost is in the book preparation > then it will make > sense to retain the book "in print" via online means > since that will > be cheap to do and will increase author recognition. > > Steve > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives > of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 12:01:53 -0500 From: David Ainsworth <dbainswo@students.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Angry Red Skies At 04:25 AM 4/28/2002 -0400, Steve Chew wrote: >> >>Spoilers >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. >>. > I didn't get the feeling that Relway did it -- it seemed like >a non-physical attack. But, I agree that Cook seems to be setting up >Relway for a larger role in a coming book. It will be interested to >see how he entangles Garrett in that mess. It might be difficult to >do since Garrett would prefer to stay out of the way. Perhaps it will >be a sideline that the dead man can entertain himself with like the >war was in the first books. I strongly suspect that the Dead Man will be more than an observer in such a case. I think he's been looking for someone to "clean up" the Hill, and developed Relway once Glory Mooncalled looked like a poorer prospect. After all, those people up the Hill are just about the only ones with the power to cause him any real trouble. Plus I suspect our lump of dead flesh may have a soft spot not caused by decomposition. :) David ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 07:42:06 -0300 From: Richard Chilton <rchilton@auracom.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Print on Demand Steve Chew wrote: > > That same article undermines my thoughts on the likelihood > of print on demand becoming useful for mass produced books. However, > I still think that print on demand and certainly online publishing > will make sense for out of print books in the long run. If, as Flint > says, most of the cost is in the book preparation then it will make > sense to retain the book "in print" via online means since that will > be cheap to do and will increase author recognition. > After reading the article I'd have to say it offers more hope for print on demand than it appears to. For those who haven't read the article I'll summarize some of the expensive he mentions for book preparation (or at least how I read his points - feel free to check with the original and then disagree with me): 1) Being a publishing company - receiving and screening hundreds of new manuscripts from known and unknown writers. 2) Paying an advance and cover art (plus other ad costs - usually fixed) 3) editing and maintaining a professional editing staff 4) formatting for publication - whether paper, ebook, or any other format. It takes a skilled professional to effectively layout a book. 5) Proof-reading the final product - and a good proof-reader is worth his weight in gold. 6) Shipping expenses - physically shipping, paying for the bandwidth, whatever 7) Maintaining a distribution system. There are new generations of printing devices coming to the market (it seems inadequate to cal them printers) that can read a file in the standard industry formats for layouts and produce a book in minutes. They currently have some limitation (including a page limit for binding that sometimes transforms books into multiple volumes), have a very limited title selection (mainly public domain novels - Moll Flanders, Moby Dick, etc), and debates about how the business model should work, but in theory it should be possible when a print run runs out to ship the book in the same format major presses use to one of these devices. From my perspective I see it generating: incremental costs to the author, artist, and some additional advertising, shipping expenses distribution expenses If the same format can be used, steps 3 - 5 will not need to repeated. His article also but a statement I came across last year in perspective. An author was releasing her back list on an epublishing website and said the interesting thing she'd learned in the process was the e-site wasn't really a publisher but a distributor. At the time I thought she was referring to the lack of editing and gate keeping, but that article pointed out the need for publishers. Call me a snob if you want, but I hope publishing companies retain their gatekeeping functions and well as their high editoral standards. I can live with the occasional typo but when I read I expect a professional product, not something from a vanity press. Richard ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 15:22:46 -0400 (EDT) From: schew@interzone.com (Steve Chew) Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Print on Demand > >There are new generations of printing devices coming to the market (it >seems inadequate to cal them printers) that can read a file in the >standard industry formats for layouts and produce a book in minutes. >They currently have some limitation (including a page limit for binding >that sometimes transforms books into multiple volumes), have a very >limited title selection (mainly public domain novels - Moll Flanders, >Moby Dick, etc), and debates about how the business model should work, >but in theory it should be possible when a print run runs out to ship >the book in the same format major presses use to one of these devices. > Where have you read about these printing devices? I'm curious to read more about them. I think that until the publishers realize that the fans want *all* books available in this manner (assuming the print quality is high) print on demand and online publishing will remain a niche market. It has huge potential but the publishers are just too afraid of it. >>From my perspective I see it generating: >incremental costs to the author, artist, and some additional >advertising, >shipping expenses >distribution expenses > >If the same format can be used, steps 3 - 5 will not need to repeated. > That's true. And once those printing devices are in wide use a lot of their costs could be picked up by the larger bookstores since they'll draw in more customers. Plus, those costs will diminish as the usage increases. > >Call me a snob if you want, but I hope publishing companies retain their >gatekeeping functions and well as their high editoral standards. I can >live with the occasional typo but when I read I expect a professional >product, not something from a vanity press. > Even if that means authors like Glen Cook can't get published? While I agree that publishers provide some important gatekeeping functions they are also a bottleneck. They don't want to spend their resources (editors, proofreaders, etc) on publishing books that probably won't sell very well. This lack of resources, the bottleneck, prevents many authors (who have previously written worthwhile works) from being able to publish their new works. I think that a new kind of publisher, one who is more of an online distributer, will crop up once those methods of distributing become popular. The new publishers will take manuscripts from authors like Cook and publish them. The quality will certainly be variable but for many readers it will be worth it. The old publishers could still retain their status as "high-quality" publishers where you can expect to get a good product every time. Steve - -- Steve Chew - schew@interzone.com - http://www.interzone.com "Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else." ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------ End of glencook-fans-digest V1 #179 *********************************** ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.