ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/glencook-fans/archive/v01.n180

Internet Message Format | 2002-04-29 | 18KB

From: [e-mail] (glencook-fans-digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: glencook-fans-digest V1 #180
Reply-To: glencook-fans-digest
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk


glencook-fans-digest      Tuesday, April 30 2002      Volume 01 : Number 180




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 17:44:06 -0300
From: Richard Chilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Print on Demand

Steve Chew wrote:
>
> >
> >There are new generations of printing devices coming to the market (it
> >seems inadequate to cal them printers) that can read a file in the
> >standard industry formats for layouts and produce a book in minutes.
> >They currently have some limitation (including a page limit for binding
> >that sometimes transforms books into multiple volumes), have a very
> >limited title selection (mainly public domain novels - Moll Flanders,
> >Moby Dick, etc), and debates about how the business model should work,
> >but in theory it should be possible when a print run runs out to ship
> >the book in the same format major presses use to one of these devices.
> >
>         Where have you read about these printing devices?  I'm curious
> to read more about them.
>         I think that until the publishers realize that the fans want
> *all* books available in this manner (assuming the print quality is
> high) print on demand and online publishing will remain a niche market.
> It has huge potential but the publishers are just too afraid of it.
>

Newspaper article - there are less than a hundred currently in use and
from what it said the selection of books is terrible.  If memory serves
it was Xerox or Canon doing the work - expanding their normal markets.

I've always seen it used on the Candian Learn Channel - not that's
there's much to see.  It hums a bit (sounded like a normal high powered
printer or advanced copier) and then a bound book was produced.

But one custom = one book loses the ecomeny of scale - which means the
business model is still being researched.

> >>From my perspective I see it generating:
> >incremental costs to the author, artist, and some additional
> >advertising,
> >shipping expenses
> >distribution expenses
> >
> >If the same format can be used, steps 3 - 5 will not need to repeated.
> >
>         That's true.  And once those printing devices are in wide use
> a lot of their costs could be picked up by the larger bookstores since
> they'll draw in more customers.  Plus, those costs will diminish as
> the usage increases.
>

I see hitting an efficiency limit - a process capable of producing
100,000 copies is generally much more efficient that a process that
produces one copy.
The newspaper article mentioned the machine one bookstore was used only
2 to 4 days a week - which means they had a capital item sitting there
doing nothing.

> >
> >Call me a snob if you want, but I hope publishing companies retain their
> >gatekeeping functions and well as their high editoral standards.  I can
> >live with the occasional typo but when I read I expect a professional
> >product, not something from a vanity press.
> >
>         Even if that means authors like Glen Cook can't get published?

Let me use another author as an example:
Christopher Stasheff.  He was once the wonderchild of fanasty.  His
first book The Warlock in Spite of Himself was one of those golden ones
that decades later it is still in print.  It's even been re-released as
a trade paperback.
His second novel was King Kobold.  No one saw the need to subject such a
brighten person's writings to serious editing because, hey, he's the
great writer.
It bomb.  Years later when it was going to be reprinted as part a move
to sell his books as a series he refused to all it to be republised
unless he could revise the book.  King Kobold Revived is a much better
novel (I've read both) and an editor worked on it.

The link provided before (http://www.baen.com/library/palaver7.htm) had
Flint pointing out that his 13th novel had to go through editing and the
process improved it greatly, and I'd say his 13th novel was much better
written than his first.

I've seen some of the things some of the epublishers are selling that I
wouldn't bother downloading for free.  If I go on Joe's <insert
franchise> fan fiction site I'll expect a certain level of work (at
least spelled checked) and be surprised if has anything I'd pay for.

If I invest time and money into a new novel based on <insert franchise>,
I expect a much higher quality of work and if it's looks something like
a first novel published through a vanity press I'd be very disappointed
- - to the point where I'd think before buying another book in that
series.  I trusted the editors and publishers to help an author produce
quality, I paid for at least a certain level of quality, and I didn't
get it.

If a good author has a sudden financial emergency and tries to tack on
an ending to a first draft that's only have done sell his publishers
wouldn't take it.  If for contractual reasons they have to take it they
won't publish it because it's their companies name on the cover (vague
memories of either Joan or Jackie Collins writing a much worse than
usual book that was paid for but never published).

> While I agree that publishers provide some important gatekeeping functions
> they are also a bottleneck.

I agree - but I can't see a way of expanding the resources to do a
quality job for all.

> They don't want to spend their resources
> (editors, proofreaders, etc) on publishing books that probably won't
> sell very well.  This lack of resources, the bottleneck, prevents many
> authors (who have previously written worthwhile works) from being able
> to publish their new works.

I know.  I've seen a few authors post on the net basically begging for
people to buy their books within a certain time frame so they can
justify their existance to their publishers.  Michael Stackpole - he's
been on the best sellers list and has written some very nice book -
posted he was looking at maybe taking a day job to support himself.
If the first two Books of the South had gone through multiple print runs
we wouldn't have had to wait all those years for The Glittering Stone
(then again we wouldn't have had so many BC books so it turned out
good).

> I think that a new kind of publisher, one
> who is more of an online distributer, will crop up once those methods
> of distributing become popular.  The new publishers will take manuscripts
> from authors like Cook and publish them.  The quality will certainly
> be variable but for many readers it will be worth it.  The old publishers
> could still retain their status as "high-quality" publishers where you
> can expect to get a good product every time.
>

I'd hate to a "Garrett Does Dallas (and her four sisters)" book
epublished because something came up and Cook had to raise some money
fast and banged out something in three days.  Without the aid of a good
editor many authors can't produce at their best, and it's their fans who
suffer.  I've seen a couple of high selling authors produce crap because
people will buy anything with that name on it so the publishers don't
bother to work on it.  (Note: their crap is a lot better than what many
first time authors produce but it was crap for them.)

Would we end up with The Annuals of the Black Company (reg pub - reg
price) and The Exciting Serial Adventures of Croaker and his faithful
sidekick One Eye (distributed but not edited, full of typos) for half
price?  While costing less will I get the same level of reward for the
time I invest?

Then there's the business model - if RChilton Publishing Inc just
distributes books why would people deal with it rather than SChew
Publishing Inc?  What does such a publisher bring to the table that will
allow them to keep their writers working for them?  How do I encourage
Joe's Books to buy from my company and not yours if we both provide the
same minimal level of service?  How do we both hang when a quality
publisher finds a cheep way to port his better quality wares to our
medium?

Those are the questions that have to be answered before anyone will put
serious ventrue into the model - especially with the internet bubble
still on everyone's mind.

Of course these are just my opinions.

Richard

If I can't an

=======================================================================
 To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
 visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 14:56:52 -0600
From: Eric Herrmann <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Print on Demand

on 4/29/02 2:44 PM, Richard Chilton at [e-mail] wrote:

> I'd hate to a "Garrett Does Dallas (and her four sisters)" book
> epublished because something came up and Cook had to raise some money
> fast and banged out something in three days.

Hey, I think we're finally back to the "Angry Lead Skies" discussion. :)

- --
Eric Herrmann
<[e-mail]>


=======================================================================
 To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
 visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 18:14:57 -0300
From: Richard Chilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Angry Lead Skies as part of the series - spoilers

Eric Herrmann wrote:
>
> on 4/29/02 2:44 PM, Richard Chilton at [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > I'd hate to a "Garrett Does Dallas (and her four sisters)" book
> > epublished because something came up and Cook had to raise some money
> > fast and banged out something in three days.
>
> Hey, I think we're finally back to the "Angry Lead Skies" discussion. :)
>

That got comment got me thinking...
>
>
>
>
>
And thinking a bit more.
>
>
>
>
And typing spoiler lines
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>

I enjoyed the book - don't get me wrong, it is a good read, but through
most of the book I was waiting for the other shoe to drop.  I knew what
the "elves" were and I keep expecting Garrett to catch on.  I half
expected the Dead Man to call them Greys and be done with it or try to
explain the concepts involved.  Instead either the Dead Man never
bothered grasping the concept of space travel (possible because of the
alien mindset) or he just glossed over it with Garrett - and I suspect
the later.
Garrett is definitely left with the impression that these guys were from
another kindom while the Dead Man knew they were talking about a
multiple life time journey - which with his knowledge he should know is
unworldly.

At times I almost got the impression that this book was setting the
stage for the next one or cleaning off loose ends from early ones.
Definitely think we're going to see a shift in power levels - Garrett is
no longer Mr. "Former Marine who Works to Put Beer on the Table" but is
now Mr. "Rich Former Marine with so Many Friends on Both Side of the Law
no one can Touch Him with some New Powers".  Garrett has a problem on
the legal side of things?  He's rich and in good with the cops.  Trouble
on the illegal side of town?  He's good friend is an assassin, his
former girl friend owns the mob, his junior partner's brother is now
running Rat Town, he's got friends invovled in the Call AND the
non-human side of things.

It short, he's got it made and that doesn't leave much room left for
adventure.  No adventure = no plot.  No plot = no book.

The way I see it either:
it will all come tumbling down around him in the next book,
or things will shift power levels,
or the series has ended happily ever after with just a few (Relway, the
birthday party) clouds on the horizon.

Richard

=======================================================================
 To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
 visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 18:32:25 -0500
From: "Ron Spence" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Angry Lead Skies as part of the series - spoilers

> That got comment got me thinking...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> And thinking a bit more.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> And typing spoiler lines
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> I enjoyed the book - don't get me wrong, it is a good read, but
through
> most of the book I was waiting for the other shoe to drop.  I knew
what
> the "elves" were and I keep expecting Garrett to catch on.  I half
> expected the Dead Man to call them Greys and be done with it or try
to
> explain the concepts involved.  Instead either the Dead Man never
> bothered grasping the concept of space travel (possible because of
the
> alien mindset) or he just glossed over it with Garrett - and I
suspect
> the later.
> Garrett is definitely left with the impression that these guys were
from
> another kindom while the Dead Man knew they were talking about a
> multiple life time journey - which with his knowledge he should know
is
> unworldly.

Let's not forget that Mr Big is with them.  Glen mentions over and
over that he doesn't know how far the Dead man can connect with him,
and Garrett keeps being suprised at his range.  I wouldn't be suprised
to hear that the Dead man is still in contact with the "elves".

> At times I almost got the impression that this book was setting the
> stage for the next one or cleaning off loose ends from early ones.

Agreed.

> Definitely think we're going to see a shift in power levels -
Garrett is
> no longer Mr. "Former Marine who Works to Put Beer on the Table" but
is
> now Mr. "Rich Former Marine with so Many Friends on Both Side of the
Law
> no one can Touch Him with some New Powers".  Garrett has a problem
on
> the legal side of things?  He's rich and in good with the cops.
Trouble
> on the illegal side of town?  He's good friend is an assassin, his
> former girl friend owns the mob, his junior partner's brother is now
> running Rat Town, he's got friends invovled in the Call AND the
> non-human side of things.
>
> It short, he's got it made and that doesn't leave much room left for
> adventure.  No adventure = no plot.  No plot = no book.
>
> The way I see it either:
> it will all come tumbling down around him in the next book,
> or things will shift power levels,
> or the series has ended happily ever after with just a few (Relway,
the
> birthday party) clouds on the horizon.

Personally, I think the pressure cooker is going to blow.

Also, don't forget about a possible wedding on the horizon... ;)

Regards,
Ron





=======================================================================
 To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
 visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 11:45:06 -0500
From: Steve Harris <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Print on Demand

Richard,

While I otherwise agree with your comments on publishing, I can't agree
with this:

"If the first two Books of the South had gone through multiple print runs
we wouldn't have had to wait all those years for The Glittering Stone"

It was Glen worried about his art that made us wait all those years:  He
wrote the third volume, then ripped it up and started over because it
didn't do what he wanted it to.  And that's how the "third volume"
became four books.

Steve

=======================================================================
 To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
 visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 17:47:12 -0300
From: Richard Chilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Print on Demand

Steve Harris wrote:
>
> Richard,
>
> While I otherwise agree with your comments on publishing, I can't agree
> with this:
>
> "If the first two Books of the South had gone through multiple print runs
> we wouldn't have had to wait all those years for The Glittering Stone"
>
> It was Glen worried about his art that made us wait all those years:  He
> wrote the third volume, then ripped it up and started over because it
> didn't do what he wanted it to.  And that's how the "third volume"
> became four books.
>

Are you sure?
I had heard that it was a misunderstanding about his contract.  At the
time I remember hearing that he stopped work on the draft of book three
when he realized it wasn't pre-sold.  Something about having finished a
Dread Empire book and discovering that his publisher didn't want it and
realizing that he'd unvested a great deal of time and effort into
something that would never bring him a dime and vowing never to do that
again.

At the time his sales numbers didn't call for extending the number of
books, but as more and more people discovered Cook interest in the third
volumne rose and his publishers talked to his agent about it.  That was
when Cook brushed off the old draft, read it, and decided to over
again.

Cook was a semi-professional author when he did the Books of the South
(I.E. he was published  but not supported by his writtings; he needed a
day job because he didn't have the sales numbers).  That's why I said
what I did - if the first two books of the south had been best sellers
the publishers would have thrown more resources at Cook and bought the
last book.

You know, I think it's possible to settle whether Cook could thrive on
with a 'distributor' type publisher.  The next time he's at a Con or
speaking at a writter's group someone could ask him how important an
editor is to his writting process.

Richard

=======================================================================
 To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
 visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.

------------------------------

End of glencook-fans-digest V1 #180
***********************************

=======================================================================
 To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
 visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.