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glencook-fans-digest   Wednesday, February 21 2001   Volume 01 : Number 086




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Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:36:32 -0400
From: Richard Chilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: (glencook-fans) Black Company Marching Song???

Note - there are a few spoilers for Solder's Live near the bottom.

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 2/18/01 8:24:48 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> [e-mail] writes:
>
> << One I think would work is "The Leader" from Chris de Burgh.  >>
>
> Another Chris de Burgh fan?   *thud!*
>

There's more of us in Canada.  I'm usually on napster sharing his first
15 albums while looking for the 3 of his CDs I lack.

> I'd suggest the "Revolution" trilogy over "The Leader", especially since he
> mentions the "years of domination" along the way.  Also the final part,
> "Liberty" reminds me a lot of Croaker and his conscience.
>

There are a few other songs that come close as well,

Crusader - telling a very one sided version of the Crusades, ending
with:
There is only gread and evil in those who fight today,
The song of the Crusader has long since gone away.
This Song For You - a letter home to a loved one from a person who knows
he is about to die in battle,
The Traveller - well, a lot of 'dead' people came back after their
murder, and the Black Company often got the same warm welcome the
Traveller did.

While it's great to talk about this wonderful singer / song writer, I
think I may have wandered off the topic.

<spoilers below>

Back to to a Black Company Marching Song - I don't think they had any.
If they had a traditional song, Croaker would have mentioned it -
specially in the last book when he was thinking about all the things
that he was the sole surviving witness to.  When he realized he was the
last person who remembered the old (pre Soulcatcher) standard - that
would have been the perfect time to mention the old marching song if
there was one.  The only time I can recall any sort of song was in the
first book - when Goblin (or was it One-Eye?) changed the words to a
song to re-start the feud.

It could just be me but I don't see the men singing.

Richard

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Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:57:54 -0600
From: Steve Harris <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: (glencook-fans) Black Company Marching Song???

Richard,

Black Company Marching Song??

As you say,

"I don't see the men singing."

More to the point:  I don't see them marching!  This is not an outfit
that goes on parade or does boot-camp-like training exercizes.  And if
they ever did close-order battle drill (which is where marching comes
from), none of the chroniclers we've read have mentioned it.

For my part, the best war song I know of is the Partisaner Lied of the
Jewish Resistance Movement in WWII.  Very dark, but honest:  "These
words are writ in blood and not with lead."  Not really a marching song,
though--the Resistance didn't march.

Steve

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Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:03:41 -0400
From: Richard Chilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: (glencook-fans) Black Company Marching Song???

Steve Harris wrote:
>
> Richard,
>
> Black Company Marching Song??
>
> As you say,
>
> "I don't see the men singing."
>
> More to the point:  I don't see them marching!  This is not an outfit
> that goes on parade or does boot-camp-like training exercizes.  And if
> they ever did close-order battle drill (which is where marching comes
> from), none of the chroniclers we've read have mentioned it.
>

I see them marching - anytime you have sargents you have solders
marching more or less in straight lines.  It's been a while since I read
the books of the South, but when the Black Company was putting together
the defense force the main goal was to get the new recruits marching in
the same direction at the same time.

As for parade - I've heard it said that no combat ready force ever
passed parade (or was it dress inspection?) and I can't see any Captain
more concerned with how the company looked then how it fought.

The Black Company did form ranks and march in several places - I just
can't see them singing a traditional battle or marching song as they
did.  It doesn't seem to fit their esprit de corps.

Richard

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Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:22:12 -0600
From: Steve Harris <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: (glencook-fans) Black Company Marching Song???

Richard,

"when the Black Company was putting together
the defense force the main goal was to get the new recruits marching in
the same direction at the same time."

I read that as meaning "headed in the same direction at the same time,
staying more or less together", and not at all marching, as in, all left
feet come down at the same time, then all right feet come down at the
same time.  And without that last, it's impossible to have a marching
song (that's what marching songs are for--to coordinate the feet; like
sailors' chanteys, they are music designed in aid of work, to coordinate
mass movement).

Steve

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:47:50 -0000
From: "Joseph McGrath" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: (glencook-fans) Black Company Marching Song???

Hey steve? yeah, there was a few tunes sung in the BC series. The main one
that comes to mind is during the Jewel Cities campaigns. (I think) Something
about how one of the guys started belting out a marching song that was old
and the whole force joined in and it made everbody feel better because, you
know, it's the company against the world. It's either in Shadows Linger or
White Rose. I'm going to have to check though and i've lent out Shadows
Linger. Which brings to mind this cool thing that happened to me
yesterday...
    I walked into a used book store that was going out of buisiness in
Cambridge Ma. (I live on the North Shore of Boston.) I picked up 1 copy of,
"A Shadow of All Night Falling," 2 copies of , "October's Baby," each one
has a slightly different cover from each other. One is a Berkley Showcase,
the other's just a Berkley. One copy of, "Sweet Sliver Blues." (When we
tried to do the Book of the Month Club thing I couldn't find my original. It
was dog eared and falling apart anyway) I'm on pg. 90 of that and on pg. 38
of A Shadow Of All Night.
    Plus a copy of Cold Copper, Sliver Spike, White Rose and Black Company.
Total cost $9.20. Yee Hah! I've never read the first two of Dread Empire,
only Ill Fate. Psyched.
If anybody still wants to do the Sweet silver thing. I'm at where the
Triplets just scared off the mob after only being allowed to drink a bucket
of beer apiece.
Thanks for everybody's time,
Joseph

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Harris <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: Odp: (glencook-fans) Black Company Marching Song???


> Richard,
>
> Black Company Marching Song??
>
> As you say,
>
> "I don't see the men singing."
>
> More to the point:  I don't see them marching!  This is not an outfit
> that goes on parade or does boot-camp-like training exercizes.  And if
> they ever did close-order battle drill (which is where marching comes
> from), none of the chroniclers we've read have mentioned it.
>
> For my part, the best war song I know of is the Partisaner Lied of the
> Jewish Resistance Movement in WWII.  Very dark, but honest:  "These
> words are writ in blood and not with lead."  Not really a marching song,
> though--the Resistance didn't march.
>
> Steve
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:27:22 -0600
From: David George <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Odp: (glencook-fans) Black Company Marching Song???

Not claiming any personal military experience (have none) but everything
I've ever read about it indicates that marching (i.e. close order drill) in
infantry outfits (certainly up to the Mid 19th century) is not just for
show and that getting the men to more or less go the same direction at the
same time would not have been enough for the new recruits in the Black
Company (an infantry unit IIRC).  Not by a long stretch.

Basically, the more choreographed your outfit is (i.e. coordinated
movements, controlled spacing, not just "roughly the same place at the same
time") the better you will do in close combat.  It is often ascribed as one
of the reasons that Roman infantry kicked everyone else's ass for so many
years--discipline, drill, and good maneuvering in the field--i.e.
coordinated mass movement.  The most notorious outfit that damaged the
Romans (until the late empire) was Hannibal's and he had a strong, hard
core of veteran infantry who, after the first few battles, were equipped
with Roman gear.  Elephants and cavalry would not have meant dick without a
solid core of infantry.

Ditto the English Redcoats and the Napoleonic infantry.  Discipline, drill,
and marching made them able to maneuver.  And maneuver is where it is at in
massive infantry struggles.  A lot of effort goes into keeping lines
dressed.  Too far away from each other, you get no support from your shield
brother, too close and you are stepping on each other.  Dressing the line
means gap control--enough room to fight in a coordinated line, not enough
room to let the enemy through the unit.  It also means keeping the shape of
the line, no bowing or salients unless they are ordered--salients are
points the enemy can exploit to break the line.  Break the line and it is
over: the enemy will get through, get behind you, widen the gap, and push
you into two groups and roll up your line.

Shifting formation would also be an important survival skill, depending on
the enemy you faced, particularly cavalry.  The Romans did not have to deal
with cavalry as much because until the late Empire, cavalry was largely a
scouting and harrassing force.  But heavy infantry in the 18th-19th century
had a big impact on what formation your infantry would take.  Against other
infantry and advancing or defending the field, you'd be set up in a long
line, facing the same direction.  Against cavalry, you'd form a square that
could face outward, with massed weapons and mutual support.  Trained
cavalry against a strung out line would lead to lots of dead infantrymen
and not much of a line.  They'd just ride up and down the line, wacking
with swords for all they were worth.  Get an infantryman to run and a
horseman will cut him down from behind.  Cavalry sabers are made for just
that sort of attack, heavy blades to cut open infantrymen's backs.  The
same tactical concerns would hold true for the Romans, if they faced
powerful cavalry forces.

The ability to walk together (it ain't easy for a big group) to stay the
correct distance from each other (dress that line, soldier) and to shift
direction or change the shape of ranks without chaos is really hard.  It
takes a lot of practice.  As to the relative value of marching together,
left-right-left vs. simply keeping the line dressed, it could be pretty
intimidating to see a well-coordinated outfit coming at you, especially if
your lines aren't dressed and you can see the gaps in your own outfit.

I suspect the primary purpose of close order drill in modern forces is
probably more for unit-building and discipline (but someone correct me if
I'm wrong).  Rifled firearms make it pretty devastating to advance in a
line (look at Civil War battles as examples--musket tactics in a rifled
firearms reality).  It would be pretty harrowing with muskets, but at least
you could get fairly close before they could range on you.  Rifles have the
range to put more than a couple rounds of massed fire into a charge over
 open ground.  I think that is ultimately why marching became more drill
and less battle practice.

Would songs help?  On the road, definitely.  Anything to relieve the
monotony of the view of the next guy's back (or his horse's ass).  In
drill, also they would help.  Convince these young men they are the baddest
dudes on life.  Give them a song to reinforce the idea.  Sing it a lot.

I know the Black Co. are not Romans, nor are they Redcoats or Napoleon's
infantry.  Glen tends to gloss over a lot of these details in the battle
sequences.  But tactics are tactics.  I would have a hard time seeing the
company as guys who, in a fight, just managed to go the same direction at
the same time.

DG

- -----Original Message-----
From:    Steve Harris
Sent:    Tuesday, February 20, 2001 2:22 PM
To:    [e-mail]
Subject:    Re: Odp: (glencook-fans) Black Company Marching Song???

Richard,

"when the Black Company was putting together
the defense force the main goal was to get the new recruits marching in
the same direction at the same time."

I read that as meaning "headed in the same direction at the same time,
staying more or less together", and not at all marching, as in, all left
feet come down at the same time, then all right feet come down at the
same time.  And without that last, it's impossible to have a marching
song (that's what marching songs are for--to coordinate the feet; like
sailors' chanteys, they are music designed in aid of work, to coordinate
mass movement).

Steve

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:47:29 -0800
From: Richard Gruver <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Odp: (glencook-fans) Black Company Marching Song???

I'm not sure why I used the phrase "marching song" in my original post
other than the fact that it was 4am and I couldn't think of anything more
appropriate. I am sure there are lot of other songs that would remind
people of the BC. That one just came to mind several times while I was
reading. It's more like a recruiting song than anything else I guess. Kind
of a call to adventure for those of a darker bent.
Richard


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End of glencook-fans-digest V1 #86
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