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glencook-fans-digest   Wednesday, November 15 2000   Volume 01 : Number 056




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 12:43:28 -0600
From: Stacey Harris <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live

Mocker,

Spoiler Space

/.,'
.,,;,;
\
'./.\
'.\
.\
]'.
\\
./\
./\
?.\

.\
'./\
.
.\
.\
/.\
.\
/.\
/.\
/./\
.\
.\\
'.

"aren't those deaths a contradiction to what they
were fighting for? It's like  they fought for nothing, because even if they
won there wasn't anyone to celebrate"

Perhaps that's a good viewpoint.  To the extent it is, it validates my
conclusion that Sleepy was incompetent as warleader of the BC, and Cook
was essentially noting this by the failure of the chronicles (the book)
to record the deaths appropriately or to put them in any sort of context
that would "make sense" (from a morale point of view).

Steve

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:50:29 -0800
From: Aaron Contreras <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live

I just got the feeling he was eager for the book to end and writing lazy.

- -----Original Message-----
Mocker,

Spoiler Space

/.,'
.,,;,;
\
'./.\
'.\
.\
]'.
\\
./\
./\
?.\

.\
'./\
.
.\
.\
/.\
.\
/.\
/.\
/./\
.\
.\\
'.

"aren't those deaths a contradiction to what they
were fighting for? It's like  they fought for nothing, because even if they
won there wasn't anyone to celebrate"

Perhaps that's a good viewpoint.  To the extent it is, it validates my
conclusion that Sleepy was incompetent as warleader of the BC, and Cook
was essentially noting this by the failure of the chronicles (the book)
to record the deaths appropriately or to put them in any sort of context
that would "make sense" (from a morale point of view).

Steve

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 14:33:29 -0600
From: "Horky, Roger" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) deaths of main characters

In re the deaths of so many characters:

Don't most lifetime soldiers wish to die in bed of old age?

I don't recall many BC characters expressing a religious desire to die in
battle to be taken to (the equivalent of ) Valhalla; I get the impression
most would just be happy to be done with all wars and die in their sleep.
Yet they know  full well that they are nothing without a war to fight--it's
all they know how to do.

Only Rhododendron Case was able to fulfill the desire to settle down and
raise a passel (sp?) of kids.

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 20:09:06 -0000
From: "Joseph McGrath" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: (glencook-fans) first thoughts on 'Soldiers live'

Totaly right!
Hemingway wrote, "It used to be sweet and fitting for a man to die for his
country. Nowadays you will die like a dog in the dirt as if noone had ever
seen you live."
Or something like that.
                Joseph
- ----- Original Message -----
From: C.L. Yona <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 12:26 AM
Subject: Re: Odp: (glencook-fans) first thoughts on 'Soldiers live'


> >       S     P     O    I    L    E    R    SPOILER
> >      GODDAMMIT!         The only thing I didnt like was the the
> >      deaths of One-Eye, Murgen, Doj etc. were very irrelevant. It
> >      was written for example "Murgen didnt make it" and thats
> >      all! He was one of the major characters and deserved an
> >      honorable death. And am I missing something? He did the same
> >      in the Dread Empire in "All Darkness Met". I ask you
> >      WHY?  Mocker
> >
> Because people die in stupid ways, and just because they were major
> characters doesn't mean they get glorious deaths.  It's just the gritty
> realism that Cook is renowned for.  Think of some of the great military
> figures of the past and how they died - Alexander the Great?  Malaria, I
> believe.  General Patton?  Jeep accident.   I've always admired Cook
> because he refuses to pander to his readers - they're HIS characters,
> and he's the omnipotent one.
>
> But that's just my two groats.  Hell, who didn't want One-Eye and Goblin
> to live forever?
>
> yer dog
>
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 17:02:02 -0600
From: "Vonder Haar, Peter C." <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Odp: (glencook-fans) first thoughts on 'Soldiers live'

 I think it's:
 "In the old days, it was thought of as sweet and fitting to die for one's
country.  Now we know there is nothing sweet nor fitting about it.  You will
die like a dog for no good reason."
 That's the gist.  I have the actual quote up in my office at home.

 Pete

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joseph McGrath [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Sent: Monday, November 13, 2000 2:09 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Cc: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: Odp: (glencook-fans) first thoughts on 'Soldiers live'
>
>
> Totaly right!
> Hemingway wrote, "It used to be sweet and fitting for a man
> to die for his
> country. Nowadays you will die like a dog in the dirt as if
> noone had ever
> seen you live."
> Or something like that.
>                 Joseph

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 17:27:23 -0800
From: "Tim McDowell" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Stacey Harris <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live


> Mocker,
>
> Spoiler Space
>
> /.,'
> .,,;,;
> \
> './.\
> '.\
> .\
> ]'.
> \\
> ./\
> ./\
> ?.\
>
> .\
> './\
> .
> .\
> .\
> /.\
> .\
> /.\
> /.\
> /./\
> .\
> .\\
> '.
>
> "aren't those deaths a contradiction to what they
> were fighting for? It's like  they fought for nothing, because even if
they
> won there wasn't anyone to celebrate"
>
> Perhaps that's a good viewpoint.  To the extent it is, it validates my
> conclusion that Sleepy was incompetent as warleader of the BC, and Cook
> was essentially noting this by the failure of the chronicles (the book)
> to record the deaths appropriately or to put them in any sort of context
> that would "make sense" (from a morale point of view).
>
> Steve

    Sorry, I tend to disagree with the conclusion that Sleepy was an
incompetent Captain for the Black Company. It is my opinion that Croaker was
upset with Sleepy because she wouldn't bring him all the way into her inner
circle. He was now a former captian on the outside looking in. And not real
happy with the situation. His 'reporting' of the actions of the Captain
would be reflected in that light.
    If your unhappy with someone and are writing about it, you will tend to
write about that person in such a manner as to present them in a bad way.
    Also, at this time the Company was losing hundreds of brothers in the
fighting. We don't hear much about them either. In early books, Croaker
would agonize over the fact that he could not mention the names of all of
the brothers that fell in battle. Here we only find mention of  a few people
and at that only that they are dead or M.I.A.
    Of course, Croaker does have several other things on his mind at this
time. Lady is in a coma, BooBoo is in shock, he just *blew up a god!* and is
soon to leave all of this behind him by switching minds with the caretaker
of the glittering plain ( i forget it's name and spelling at the moment).
    I really think he's pre-occupied. He is making plans for the Company to
move on without him. Croaker's time is done. Let someone else worry about
the little stuff.

        Tim



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 00:03:57 -0600
From: "Jordan Raney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live

> > Spoiler Space
> >
> > /.,'
> > .,,;,;
> > \
> > './.\
> > '.\
> > .\
> > ]'.
> > \\
> > ./\
> > ./\
> > ?.\
> >
> > .\
> > './\
> > .
> > .\
> > .\
> > /.\
> > .\
> > /.\
> > /.\
> > /./\
> > .\
> > .\\
> > '.
> >
>     Sorry, I tend to disagree with the conclusion that Sleepy was an
> incompetent Captain for the Black Company. It is my opinion that Croaker
was
> upset with Sleepy because she wouldn't bring him all the way into her
inner
> circle. He was now a former captian on the outside looking in. And not
real
> happy with the situation. His 'reporting' of the actions of the Captain
> would be reflected in that light.
>     If your unhappy with someone and are writing about it, you will tend
to
> write about that person in such a manner as to present them in a bad way.

If you aren't "happy" with someone you are writing about, you probably
wouldn't have created the character in the first place.  It'd be different
if Glen made up the story as he went along, but I thought I remember him
talking about his writing method and saying that he plans it out before he
writes?  I don't think it was a case ofm, "shoot, I'm stuck here with this
lousy character leading the company, let's get rid of her."


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 01:43:53 -0600
From: Stacey Harris <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live

Tim,

> Spoiler Space
>
> /.,'
> .,,;,;
> \
> './.\
> '.\
> .\
> ]'.
> \\
> ./\
> ./\
> ?.\
>
> .\
> './\
> .
> .\
> .\
> /.\
> .\
> /.\
> /.\
> /./\
> .\
> .\\
> '.
>

"I tend to disagree with the conclusion that Sleepy was an
incompetent Captain for the Black Company."

My conclusion on that has nothing to do with Croaker's reportage, but
with Sleepy's utter fiasco of a frontal attack on the city, quite out of
keeping with BC tactics--and not really in keeping with BC strategic
aims, either (it wasn't a necessary campaign to wage).  Cook has "fate"
do in Sleepy and others ignominiously as apt repayment for her
incompetence at the end, as I see it.

steve

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 07:38:07 -0500
From: Jay DeSimone <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live

> > Spoiler Space
> >
> > /.,'
> > .,,;,;
> > \
> > './.\
> > '.\
> > .\
> > ]'.
> > \\
> > ./\
> > ./\
> > ?.\
> >
> > .\
> > './\
> > .
> > .\
> > .\
> > /.\
> > .\
> > /.\
> > /.\
> > /./\
> > .\
> > .\\
> > '.
> >Stacey Harris wrote:
>
> "I tend to disagree with the conclusion that Sleepy was an
> incompetent Captain for the Black Company."
>
> My conclusion on that has nothing to do with Croaker's reportage, but
> with Sleepy's utter fiasco of a frontal attack on the city, quite out of
> keeping with BC tactics--and not really in keeping with BC strategic
> aims, either (it wasn't a necessary campaign to wage).  Cook has "fate"
> do in Sleepy and others ignominiously as apt repayment for her
> incompetence at the end, as I see it.

I have to disagree about Sleepy being a bad Captain at all.  Remember, she
kept the company hidden under Catcher's nose for a lot of years during the
captivity.  The Company had changed; the Captain's style also changed with
each captain.  How many assaults on cities did Croaker lead?  Wtat made
attacking Taglios a bad idea?  Croaker's lack of planning and playing
everything as it came led to the Dejagore disaster.  She did a good job, I
think...her only mistake was walking through that gate first.

Just my 2 cents.

Jay


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 08:41:36 -0500
From: "Wright Frazier" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay DeSimone" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live


> > > Spoiler Space
> > >
> > > /.,'
> > > .,,;,;
> > > \
> > > './.\
> > > '.\
> > > .\
> > > ]'.
> > > \\
> > > ./\
> > > ./\
> > > ?.\
> > >
> > > .\
> > > './\
> > > .
> > > .\
> > > .\
> > > /.\
> > > .\
> > > /.\
> > > /.\
> > > /./\
> > > .\
> > > .\\
> > > '.
> > >Stacey Harris wrote:
> >
> > "I tend to disagree with the conclusion that Sleepy was an
> > incompetent Captain for the Black Company."
> >
> > My conclusion on that has nothing to do with Croaker's reportage, but
> > with Sleepy's utter fiasco of a frontal attack on the city, quite out of
> > keeping with BC tactics--and not really in keeping with BC strategic
> > aims, either (it wasn't a necessary campaign to wage).  Cook has "fate"
> > do in Sleepy and others ignominiously as apt repayment for her
> > incompetence at the end, as I see it.
>
> I have to disagree about Sleepy being a bad Captain at all.  Remember, she
> kept the company hidden under Catcher's nose for a lot of years during the
> captivity.  The Company had changed; the Captain's style also changed with
> each captain.  How many assaults on cities did Croaker lead?  Wtat made
> attacking Taglios a bad idea?  Croaker's lack of planning and playing
> everything as it came led to the Dejagore disaster.  She did a good job, I
> think...her only mistake was walking through that gate first.
>

I don't think Sleepy was a bad captain either.  From studying history, and
considering the magical resources she had available (not much), a frontal
assault in 2 places is about as good as you can get.  That city had a wall,
and unless Tobo (who was real out of it at the time) just knocked a huge
stretch of it down, then that leaves only a few points to attack from (hince
the purpose of the wall, channeling the attacker where you want).  In this
case through the river quarter (hard to do even in modern times because it
is an amphibious operation) and the gate.  The river quarter as I said
requires an amphibious assault and we aren't looking at things for
deployement like Higgins boats or Amtracks.  We are talking about guys
rowing up in boats which are very susceptable to enemey fire, or swimming
which is very exhaustive and very hard to keep your men together.  That she
was able to get so many men onto land in the Riverquarter struck me as
honestly a tad unbelieveable unless the armor that the Children of the Dead
wore floated. =)

Also historically speaking there is no good way to assault a city with a
wall, that is why such things _ALWAYS_ resulted in horrible sackings and
butcherings if the city resisted.  It is the most dangerous thing for an
attacker to do and requires huge amounts of effort and casualties because
every advantage is with the defender, and that just really pisses people
off.  So when they'd finally take a city, they'd punish the resistors as
thoroughly as they could.  That was something else that struck me as
unbelieveable, that the Children of the Dead and the levies raised on the
way didn't loot and pillage once they were inside.  They were all foreign
soldiers in a foreign city.  They had no love for it.  That kind of
discipline has only come around in modern armies, and its still not fully
contained even in the US military.

If Sleepy screwed up, it was in entering the city before that gate house was
fully taken.  Trap or no trap, that is just begging for trouble.

Wright



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 08:59:02 -0500
From: "Timothy P. Taylor" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live

Wright,

    Uhm, Historically speaking, Belisarious (sp?) <perhaps the greatest Roman
General Ever> Had perhaps one of the best disiplined armies ever to walk the
face of the earth.  While I'm not stating that some looting etc. never
happened, Belisarious brought order and discipline to the Roman Legions not
seen before or since, even today.

    Face it, when you have an army trained to kill the other folks, sometimes
bloodlust is just impossible to contain, contrary to what any liberal will
have you believe.  Man is still not all that far from his forbears, and when
you condition the body to respond in certain curcumstances with specific
actions, you *ARE* going to have incidents.

I don't find it that ahrd to believe that the looting and pillaging was kept
to a minimum.  The company's strength has always been its superior
discipline, which held true to the last.  Once Mogaba fell, the heart of the
resistance pretty much ended.

TT

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Wright
> Frazier
> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 8:42 AM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
>
>
>
> Also historically speaking there is no good way to assault a city with a
> wall, that is why such things _ALWAYS_ resulted in horrible sackings and
> butcherings if the city resisted.  It is the most dangerous thing for an
> attacker to do and requires huge amounts of effort and casualties because
> every advantage is with the defender, and that just really pisses people
> off.  So when they'd finally take a city, they'd punish the resistors as
> thoroughly as they could.  That was something else that struck me as
> unbelieveable, that the Children of the Dead and the levies raised on the
> way didn't loot and pillage once they were inside.  They were all foreign
> soldiers in a foreign city.  They had no love for it.  That kind of
> discipline has only come around in modern armies, and its still not fully
> contained even in the US military.
>
> If Sleepy screwed up, it was in entering the city before that
> gate house was
> fully taken.  Trap or no trap, that is just begging for trouble.
>
> Wright
>


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 09:04:26 -0500
From: "Wright Frazier" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live

The heart of the company yes, but the Children of the Dead and the Levies
gathered along the way are not the heart of the company.  They are mercs for
mercs.  In the case of the Children of the Dead they were signing on for 1
or 2year in the field contracts if I remember right.  Also remember, that
these were not good people even the core ones.  When the Khatovar kids
escaped (can't remember their names) they raped one of'em for it, and for
killing just one or two of their members during their escape.  Why would
they do that to her for killing one or two during an escape but not to the
whole town for resisting and killing thousands of brothers?  The "female
core" that croaker pointed out that kept it a bit in reign was gone by then
(Sleepy & Sahra dead, Lady out of it).

I just don't buy that they would not sack the city. For the hell they got
put through taking it.

Wright


> Wright,
>
> Uhm, Historically speaking, Belisarious (sp?) <perhaps the greatest Roman
> General Ever> Had perhaps one of the best disiplined armies ever to walk
the
> face of the earth.  While I'm not stating that some looting etc. never
> happened, Belisarious brought order and discipline to the Roman Legions
not
> seen before or since, even today.
>
> Face it, when you have an army trained to kill the other folks, sometimes
> bloodlust is just impossible to contain, contrary to what any liberal will
> have you believe.  Man is still not all that far from his forbears, and
when
> you condition the body to respond in certain curcumstances with specific
> actions, you *ARE* going to have incidents.
>
> I don't find it that ahrd to believe that the looting and pillaging was
kept
> to a minimum.  The company's strength has always been its superior
> discipline, which held true to the last.  Once Mogaba fell, the heart of
the
> resistance pretty much ended.
>
> TT
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [e-mail]
> > [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Wright
> > Frazier
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 8:42 AM
> > To: [e-mail]
> > Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
> >
> >
> >
> > Also historically speaking there is no good way to assault a city with a
> > wall, that is why such things _ALWAYS_ resulted in horrible sackings and
> > butcherings if the city resisted.  It is the most dangerous thing for an
> > attacker to do and requires huge amounts of effort and casualties
because
> > every advantage is with the defender, and that just really pisses people
> > off.  So when they'd finally take a city, they'd punish the resistors as
> > thoroughly as they could.  That was something else that struck me as
> > unbelieveable, that the Children of the Dead and the levies raised on
the
> > way didn't loot and pillage once they were inside.  They were all
foreign
> > soldiers in a foreign city.  They had no love for it.  That kind of
> > discipline has only come around in modern armies, and its still not
fully
> > contained even in the US military.
> >
> > If Sleepy screwed up, it was in entering the city before that
> > gate house was
> > fully taken.  Trap or no trap, that is just begging for trouble.
> >
> > Wright
> >
>
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>



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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 18:47:41 -0000
From: "Joseph McGrath" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: (glencook-fans) first thoughts on 'Soldiers live'

Thanks Pete,
    I think I remember remember reading it somewhere once... That was just
how i rememberd it.
    Joseph
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Vonder Haar, Peter C. <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 11:02 PM
Subject: RE: Odp: (glencook-fans) first thoughts on 'Soldiers live'


> I think it's:
>  "In the old days, it was thought of as sweet and fitting to die for one's
> country.  Now we know there is nothing sweet nor fitting about it.  You
will
> die like a dog for no good reason."
>  That's the gist.  I have the actual quote up in my office at home.
>
>  Pete
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joseph McGrath [mailto:[e-mail]]
> > Sent: Monday, November 13, 2000 2:09 PM
> > To: [e-mail]
> > Cc: [e-mail]
> > Subject: Re: Odp: (glencook-fans) first thoughts on 'Soldiers live'
> >
> >
> > Totaly right!
> > Hemingway wrote, "It used to be sweet and fitting for a man
> > to die for his
> > country. Nowadays you will die like a dog in the dirt as if
> > noone had ever
> > seen you live."
> > Or something like that.
> >                 Joseph
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 09:29:14 -0500
From: "Timothy P. Taylor" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live

Wright, I think you anser your own question.  In fact most of the ones
killed were "NOT" borthers, but mercs.  There are historical events where a
city was taken, but not sacked, even though resistance was fierce.  In one
case at least, the attackers were just emotionally and physically too
drained.

    I can accept your belief that they should have sacked the city.  Thats
whats great about this list!

;)

TT

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Wright
> Frazier
> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 9:04 AM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
>
>
> The heart of the company yes, but the Children of the Dead and the Levies
> gathered along the way are not the heart of the company.  They
> are mercs for
> mercs.  In the case of the Children of the Dead they were signing on for 1
> or 2year in the field contracts if I remember right.  Also remember, that
> these were not good people even the core ones.  When the Khatovar kids
> escaped (can't remember their names) they raped one of'em for it, and for
> killing just one or two of their members during their escape.  Why would
> they do that to her for killing one or two during an escape but not to the
> whole town for resisting and killing thousands of brothers?  The "female
> core" that croaker pointed out that kept it a bit in reign was
> gone by then
> (Sleepy & Sahra dead, Lady out of it).
>
> I just don't buy that they would not sack the city. For the hell they got
> put through taking it.
>
> Wright
>
>
> > Wright,
> >
> > Uhm, Historically speaking, Belisarious (sp?) <perhaps the
> greatest Roman
> > General Ever> Had perhaps one of the best disiplined armies ever to walk
> the
> > face of the earth.  While I'm not stating that some looting etc. never
> > happened, Belisarious brought order and discipline to the Roman Legions
> not
> > seen before or since, even today.
> >
> > Face it, when you have an army trained to kill the other folks,
> sometimes
> > bloodlust is just impossible to contain, contrary to what any
> liberal will
> > have you believe.  Man is still not all that far from his forbears, and
> when
> > you condition the body to respond in certain curcumstances with specific
> > actions, you *ARE* going to have incidents.
> >
> > I don't find it that ahrd to believe that the looting and pillaging was
> kept
> > to a minimum.  The company's strength has always been its superior
> > discipline, which held true to the last.  Once Mogaba fell, the heart of
> the
> > resistance pretty much ended.
> >
> > TT
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [e-mail]
> > > [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Wright
> > > Frazier
> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 8:42 AM
> > > To: [e-mail]
> > > Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Also historically speaking there is no good way to assault a
> city with a
> > > wall, that is why such things _ALWAYS_ resulted in horrible
> sackings and
> > > butcherings if the city resisted.  It is the most dangerous
> thing for an
> > > attacker to do and requires huge amounts of effort and casualties
> because
> > > every advantage is with the defender, and that just really
> pisses people
> > > off.  So when they'd finally take a city, they'd punish the
> resistors as
> > > thoroughly as they could.  That was something else that struck me as
> > > unbelieveable, that the Children of the Dead and the levies raised on
> the
> > > way didn't loot and pillage once they were inside.  They were all
> foreign
> > > soldiers in a foreign city.  They had no love for it.  That kind of
> > > discipline has only come around in modern armies, and its still not
> fully
> > > contained even in the US military.
> > >
> > > If Sleepy screwed up, it was in entering the city before that
> > > gate house was
> > > fully taken.  Trap or no trap, that is just begging for trouble.
> > >
> > > Wright
> > >
> >
> >
> > =======================================================================
> >  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> >  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> >
>
>
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 09:33:45 -0500
From: "Wright Frazier" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live

Even after being emotionally and physically drained, folks till had enough
energy for the Slaughter of Jerusalem & the Rape of Magdeberg. =)  Its one
of Mr. Cook's weaker points in the story.  He goes out of his way to portray
the company as a bunch of nasty bastages, but when the time comes when
armies turn really nasty, they don't.

*shrug*

Wright



> Wright, I think you anser your own question.  In fact most of the ones
> killed were "NOT" borthers, but mercs.  There are historical events where
a
> city was taken, but not sacked, even though resistance was fierce.  In one
> case at least, the attackers were just emotionally and physically too
> drained.
>
> I can accept your belief that they should have sacked the city.  Thats
> whats great about this list!
>
> ;)
>
> TT
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [e-mail]
> > [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Wright
> > Frazier
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 9:04 AM
> > To: [e-mail]
> > Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
> >
> >
> > The heart of the company yes, but the Children of the Dead and the
Levies
> > gathered along the way are not the heart of the company.  They
> > are mercs for
> > mercs.  In the case of the Children of the Dead they were signing on for
1
> > or 2year in the field contracts if I remember right.  Also remember,
that
> > these were not good people even the core ones.  When the Khatovar kids
> > escaped (can't remember their names) they raped one of'em for it, and
for
> > killing just one or two of their members during their escape.  Why would
> > they do that to her for killing one or two during an escape but not to
the
> > whole town for resisting and killing thousands of brothers?  The "female
> > core" that croaker pointed out that kept it a bit in reign was
> > gone by then
> > (Sleepy & Sahra dead, Lady out of it).
> >
> > I just don't buy that they would not sack the city. For the hell they
got
> > put through taking it.
> >
> > Wright
> >
> >
> > > Wright,
> > >
> > > Uhm, Historically speaking, Belisarious (sp?) <perhaps the
> > greatest Roman
> > > General Ever> Had perhaps one of the best disiplined armies ever to
walk
> > the
> > > face of the earth.  While I'm not stating that some looting etc. never
> > > happened, Belisarious brought order and discipline to the Roman
Legions
> > not
> > > seen before or since, even today.
> > >
> > > Face it, when you have an army trained to kill the other folks,
> > sometimes
> > > bloodlust is just impossible to contain, contrary to what any
> > liberal will
> > > have you believe.  Man is still not all that far from his forbears,
and
> > when
> > > you condition the body to respond in certain curcumstances with
specific
> > > actions, you *ARE* going to have incidents.
> > >
> > > I don't find it that ahrd to believe that the looting and pillaging
was
> > kept
> > > to a minimum.  The company's strength has always been its superior
> > > discipline, which held true to the last.  Once Mogaba fell, the heart
of
> > the
> > > resistance pretty much ended.
> > >
> > > TT
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: [e-mail]
> > > > [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Wright
> > > > Frazier
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 8:42 AM
> > > > To: [e-mail]
> > > > Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Also historically speaking there is no good way to assault a
> > city with a
> > > > wall, that is why such things _ALWAYS_ resulted in horrible
> > sackings and
> > > > butcherings if the city resisted.  It is the most dangerous
> > thing for an
> > > > attacker to do and requires huge amounts of effort and casualties
> > because
> > > > every advantage is with the defender, and that just really
> > pisses people
> > > > off.  So when they'd finally take a city, they'd punish the
> > resistors as
> > > > thoroughly as they could.  That was something else that struck me as
> > > > unbelieveable, that the Children of the Dead and the levies raised
on
> > the
> > > > way didn't loot and pillage once they were inside.  They were all
> > foreign
> > > > soldiers in a foreign city.  They had no love for it.  That kind of
> > > > discipline has only come around in modern armies, and its still not
> > fully
> > > > contained even in the US military.
> > > >
> > > > If Sleepy screwed up, it was in entering the city before that
> > > > gate house was
> > > > fully taken.  Trap or no trap, that is just begging for trouble.
> > > >
> > > > Wright
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
=======================================================================
> > >  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> > >  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > =======================================================================
> >  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> >  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 07:20:57 -0800
From: "Tim McDowell" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Fw: EMAZING Internet Tip of the Day - Book Search Engines

    I got this in a e-mail. Maybe someone else can also use these sites.


> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
> Book Search Engines
>
> If you're a book collector, or a bargain hunter, or if you
> need an out-of-print title, then try some of the used book
> search engines on the Web. These link together hundreds of
> small (and not-so-small) bookstores coast to coast and in
> other countries, letting you search hundreds of inventories
> for the right book. You can search title, author,
> publisher, and other attributes, like hardbound or
> paperback, dust jacket, first edition, etc. Condition is
> listed, too. You often get multiple hits for titles, giving
> you a choice of prices. Collectors can find what they need
> to round out their favorite authors. Bargain hunters can
> find used copies of out-of-print books. You can purchase
> the books online, too. Two of the best are ABE and Alibris.
> Both give you lots of search options.
>
> Visit ABE.
> http://www.abe.com/
>
> Try Alibris.
> http://www.alibris.com/cgi-bin/texis/searcher
>
> - Dennis Ryan
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 07:31:43 -0800
From: "Tim McDowell" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Jordan Raney <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 10:03 PM
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live


> > > Spoiler Space
> > >
> > > /.,'
> > > .,,;,;
> > > \
> > > './.\
> > > '.\
> > > .\
> > > ]'.
> > > \\
> > > ./\
> > > ./\
> > > ?.\
> > >
> > > .\
> > > './\
> > > .
> > > .\
> > > .\
> > > /.\
> > > .\
> > > /.\
> > > /.\
> > > /./\
> > > .\
> > > .\\
> > > '.
> > >
> >     Sorry, I tend to disagree with the conclusion that Sleepy was an
> > incompetent Captain for the Black Company. It is my opinion that Croaker
> was
> > upset with Sleepy because she wouldn't bring him all the way into her
> inner
> > circle. He was now a former captian on the outside looking in. And not
> real
> > happy with the situation. His 'reporting' of the actions of the Captain
> > would be reflected in that light.
> >     If your unhappy with someone and are writing about it, you will tend
> to
> > write about that person in such a manner as to present them in a bad
way.
>
> If you aren't "happy" with someone you are writing about, you probably
> wouldn't have created the character in the first place.

    Sorry, I seem to have given you some confusion. In my last sentence
above, I was still speaking of Croaker writing in  the Annals about Sleepy.
Not Mr. Cook writing about Croaker writing about Sleepy. (if i put one more
twist in there i'll probably be able to bite myself in the back.)

 It'd be different
> if Glen made up the story as he went along, but I thought I remember him
> talking about his writing method and saying that he plans it out before he
> writes?  I don't think it was a case ofm, "shoot, I'm stuck here with this
> lousy character leading the company, let's get rid of her."
>



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------------------------------

End of glencook-fans-digest V1 #56
**********************************

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