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glencook-fans-digest    Sunday, September 17 2000    Volume 01 : Number 035




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Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 22:48:46 -0400
From: "C.L. Yona" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Question about my favorite pooch

 So, after finishing SL I started to reread the series again and became
reacquainted with Toadkiller Dog.  maybe this has been asked before, and
maybe I missed it, but do we ever learn the origin of Toadkiller Dog's
name?  The one time someone asks about it the response is just that
"It's an old joke" or something like that.

yer dog

Poor little maroon.  So trusting.  So naive.


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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 01:04:09 -0300
From: Richard Chilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Question about my favorite pooch

"C.L. Yona" wrote:
>
>  So, after finishing SL I started to reread the series again and became
> reacquainted with Toadkiller Dog.  maybe this has been asked before, and
> maybe I missed it, but do we ever learn the origin of Toadkiller Dog's
> name?  The one time someone asks about it the response is just that
> "It's an old joke" or something like that.
>

No.  The closest we come is the Lady mentioning that there were old
terrors (old than the Dominator) that had flocked to his side and were
burried with him, and a bit more talk like that in _The Silver Spike_
where Toadkiller Dog led a pack of other old terrors.

Richard

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Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 23:04:26 -0600
From: "Amy Weathers" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Out Of Print

Then there are people like me that have had some of these books on hold
lists forever.   (October's Baby)

I did find all but the last four BC books at different used books stores and
all the Dread Empire that I own as well.   I just seems that no one wants to
part with that book.   I just added The Dragon Never Sleeps this week.
Shall see if it makes an appearance anytime soon.

Amy




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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 11:51:14 -0500
From: "Christopher C. Holden" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Soulcatcher

> In the first book, when one of the circle goes down and 3 of Ten stand
> around watching one their number (Hanged Man?) die Crocker sees Catcher
> disolve into a mist that evelopes some soldiers.  The soldiers collapse
> lifelessly to the ground without a mark on them.
> I think that was Soulcatcher taking their souls.  She never killed any
> of the Company like that, so we never heard their voices.

That's absolutely correct.  I didn't catch that part the first time I read
the series, but it sure stuck with me the second time.  A few pages later
Croaker talks about hearing Soulcatcher talking in one of the voices of the

soldiers she enveloped in her cloud, thus clarifying that we were supposed
to think that's how a soul-catching worked.

I was disappointed by this, of course.  Until that point of the book had
imagined her catching of souls accomplished in a much more fanciful manner,

perhaps whilst frollicking about in a field of dandelions with a butterfly
catching net and much giggling.


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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 12:14:46 -0500
From: David Ainsworth <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Soulcatcher

At 02:56 PM 9/15/2000 EDT, you wrote:
>Is it my imagination (or limited memory, because this is a
spur-of-the-moment coment), or did Cook never show Soulcatcher "soul-catching"?
>
>Croaker mentions that the voices are those of the people she has killed,
but I don't recall a recent kill's voice coming back to haunt any of the
Company...that would have been an interesting scene.

In Chapter V (Harden) in the original BC, after killing Harden, 'Catcher
turns into a "cloud of darkness ten feet high and a dozen across" and
absorbs all of the other surviving soldiers.  She then turns to Croaker and
says "You didn't see a thing, did you?"  She says this in the voice of one
of the dead soldiers.  To my knowledge, this is the only soul-catching
incident in the stories, although the black cloud that Croaker shoots with
an arrow a bit later in BC was presumably 'Catcher as well.

David


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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 12:14:47 -0500
From: David Ainsworth <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL Dangling threads (Spoilers)

At 03:28 PM 9/15/2000 -0300, Richard Chilton wrote:
>I think Tobo will either become a good guy sorcerer or die.  Er, make
>that have mommy, grandma, and great grand ma invite him to live full
>time in the spirit world (so his body dies).  If he lives, his destiny
>seems to lie with the Forgotten Shadows rather than the Black Company.

Granted.  But what is Thi Kim's "task" so to speak.  If he's part of some
legend or prophecy, one would expect him to DO something.  At the end of SL
Tobo hasn't even earned an "adult" name yet...

>The Gate was repaired.  90% of the Shadows were dead by the time Crocker
>pulled his rescue mission.  I don't think the Family was keeping
>something under control - their utter lack of respect for history seems
>to point away from that.

The Taken and the Dominator had nothing to do with containing the ancient
evil under the Plain of Fear, either... but it was still there.  And their
utter lack of respect for history suggests that they wouldn't be able to
protect any sort of older "containment" from shadow attack.  And how many
Shadows constitute 10%?  Probably more than the 16 surviving Voroshk.

And remember the Nef tried to warn Lady and Croaker and the others about
something related to Khatovar (SL pgs 186-7).

For that matter, do we really get any evidence that the Family was at all
responsible for making the flying posts?  All we know is that they have
records concerning how to control them.  (Does anyone recall the first
mention of the First Father's notebook?  I can't seem to find it right now.)
We know they make the clothing (see pg 280), but not the posts (and see pgs
250-1 for a suggestion they didn't).  And on pg 255 we're told the posts
have an easy control mechanism.  Given the Family's nature, and that they
make clothing attuned to the wearer, why wouldn't they fashion the posts the
same way if they were capable of doing so?

Another nasty thought--Kina is presumably getting her hooks into Lady before
they catch Booboo the last time.  When Kina gets offed (presumably... that
is at least the implication, although Cook makes it uncertain by writing the
chapter where Kina dies AFTER this one), Lady has a vision of her strangling
her daughter.  Given Kina's skinwalker abilities, maybe she WANTED Booboo
dead so that she could possess her body.  But Kina is offed...

On 470, though, we see a ghost of Kina in Booboo's eyes as she tries to kill
Lady.  This forces Croaker to kill her.  Given that Kina had hooks in both
these women, perhaps this was a win-win situation for her?  Is that "ghost"
enough of an essence to possess a dead body?  Is Kina depending upon Lady
and Croaker's love for their daughter to ensure her eventual restoration?

David


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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 14:57:42 -0300
From: Richard Chilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL Dangling threads (Spoilers)

David Ainsworth wrote:
>
> At 03:28 PM 9/15/2000 -0300, Richard Chilton wrote:
> >I think Tobo will either become a good guy sorcerer or die.  Er, make
> >that have mommy, grandma, and great grand ma invite him to live full
> >time in the spirit world (so his body dies).  If he lives, his destiny
> >seems to lie with the Forgotten Shadows rather than the Black Company.
>
> Granted.  But what is Thi Kim's "task" so to speak.  If he's part of some
> legend or prophecy, one would expect him to DO something.  At the end of SL
> Tobo hasn't even earned an "adult" name yet...
>

I'll tie in what I think is Tobo's destiny below.

> >The Gate was repaired.  90% of the Shadows were dead by the time Crocker
> >pulled his rescue mission.  I don't think the Family was keeping
> >something under control - their utter lack of respect for history seems
> >to point away from that.
>
> The Taken and the Dominator had nothing to do with containing the ancient
> evil under the Plain of Fear, either... but it was still there.  And their
> utter lack of respect for history suggests that they wouldn't be able to
> protect any sort of older "containment" from shadow attack.  And how many
> Shadows constitute 10%?  Probably more than the 16 surviving Voroshk.
>
> And remember the Nef tried to warn Lady and Croaker and the others about
> something related to Khatovar (SL pgs 186-7).
>
> For that matter, do we really get any evidence that the Family was at all
> responsible for making the flying posts?  All we know is that they have
> records concerning how to control them.  (Does anyone recall the first
> mention of the First Father's notebook?  I can't seem to find it right now.)

I thought one of the girls says it takes 20 years to learn how to make
them, or was that the clothing?

> We know they make the clothing (see pg 280), but not the posts (and see pgs
> 250-1 for a suggestion they didn't).  And on pg 255 we're told the posts

I think 250-1 refers to the Voroshk they captured.

> have an easy control mechanism.  Given the Family's nature, and that they
> make clothing attuned to the wearer, why wouldn't they fashion the posts the
> same way if they were capable of doing so?
>

Just guessing, but:
I think the Family knows how to make the posts - they are just two
common to be ancient artifacts left from a previous era.  They may or
may not know the principles behind what they do but they do know the
steps to follow.
Why are they attuned to their owners?  Maybe they take longer to make
than the clothing, and can be handed down.  Maybe the Family operates a
'flying broomstick pool' like some companies have moter pools - each
compound has X sticks and while a certain stick may be usually assigned
to a certain family member any member that really needed can use it.
Or may that bit about the clothing was a self serving lie.  "My magic
protection?  Um, it would be useless to you so I should keep it."  After
all, Tobo changes the attuning for most of the clothes.  I can see a lot
of work being put in to attuned them to their usually own because it
seems the better attuned the more they protect, but if the owner dies I
can see them being re-used.

As for theories, how does this sound?

When the free companies went forth one of them entered a world that had
some powerful sorcerers.  The sorcerers whiped out that company, but
learned some of the basics of the Shadow Gates as they did so.  They
then launched an invasion into some of the other worlds, becoming the
Family on one and the Shadow Masters on another.  The Forgotten Shadows
existed before the Shadow Masters inslaved that world, and Tobo's
destiny is to restore them to their nature place as great powers in
their world.
Or his destiny may be tied to the race of sorcerers that generated the
Family and the Shadow Masters.

But either way, unless Cook writes more on the subject all this is just
idle speculation.  We can speculate all we want but we just don't have
enough evidence to go further.  I surpose that someone could try to pin
him down at con, but (based on his answer to who was the third female
taken) I don't think he's really decided.

Richard

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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 16:05:56 -0300
From: Richard Chilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Kina lives, out-of-print Cook, Raker

Bill Acuff wrote:
>
>
> The original question re. Raker was: which came first, the short story, or
> the novel? I know many writers develop full-length novels from successful
> short stories, but I suppose it can go the other way, too. Anybody know?
>
> Win, I'd bet you're right about a little more background in the Raker short
> than in the BC novel. There would have to be, otherwise the story wouldn't
> make much sense. Um, surely you're not reading BC for the first time? If so,
> boy do I envy you. Enjoy--there ain't nothing in fantasy like those first
> three novels and The Silver Spike.
>

I'm lucky enough to live near a University that has a good Sci-fi and
Fantasy collection - including a collection of the magazine that Raker
was published in.
Raker came first, but there isn't a huge difference between the chapter
in The Black Company and the short story.  The short story format
doesn't really allow for a lot of background building.  If memory serves
there is only a paragraph or two of background tacted onto the start of
the story - and only one major new fact is included.
Raker has a line that gives the size of the Black Company - I forget
what it was but beleive it to be around 100 (112 comes to mind - but I
could be wrong).

Maybe something on Raker (short story vs chapter) could be added to the
FAQ for version 0.3?

Richard

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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 15:13:45 -0600
From: Eric Herrmann <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Kina lives, out-of-print Cook, Raker

> Raker came first, but there isn't a huge difference between the chapter in The
> Black Company and the short story.  The short story format doesn't really
> allow for a lot of background building.  If memory serves there is only a
> paragraph or two of background tacted onto the start of the story - and only
> one major new fact is included.
>
> Raker has a line that gives the size of the Black Company - I forget what it
> was but beleive it to be around 100 (112 comes to mind - but I could be
> wrong).

In the May 1999 archive, I compared the short story with the chapter. In
this case the short story does build more background because there aren't
several chapters of story preceding it.

The paragraph you are remembering is:

F&SF August, 1982, pg 95
"In its heyday, three centuries ago, the company was 6000 strong. The Annals
glow with the glory of those years, when our predecessors served the lords
of Hellon. Nowadays my pitiful pages emanates bleakness. We number a mere
189. Time and fate have not served us well."

- --
Eric Herrmann
<[e-mail]>


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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 00:48:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Igor Filippov <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Soulcatcher

I could be wrong, I don't have the text handy, but wasn't there
an implication that Catcher got Croaker's soul (temporarily of
course...) ?
I remember the description of his feeling of getting separated from
his body when she found him laying wounded on the battlefield...

Igor

On Sun, 17 Sep 2000, Christopher C. Holden wrote:

>
> > In the first book, when one of the circle goes down and 3 of Ten stand
> > around watching one their number (Hanged Man?) die Crocker sees Catcher
> > disolve into a mist that evelopes some soldiers.  The soldiers collapse
> > lifelessly to the ground without a mark on them.
> > I think that was Soulcatcher taking their souls.  She never killed any
> > of the Company like that, so we never heard their voices.
>
> That's absolutely correct.  I didn't catch that part the first time I read
> the series, but it sure stuck with me the second time.  A few pages later
> Croaker talks about hearing Soulcatcher talking in one of the voices of the
>
> soldiers she enveloped in her cloud, thus clarifying that we were supposed
> to think that's how a soul-catching worked.
>
> I was disappointed by this, of course.  Until that point of the book had
> imagined her catching of souls accomplished in a much more fanciful manner,
>
> perhaps whilst frollicking about in a field of dandelions with a butterfly
> catching net and much giggling.
>
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>


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End of glencook-fans-digest V1 #35
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