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From: owner-glencook-fans-digest@lists.xmission.com (glencook-fans-digest)
To: glencook-fans-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: glencook-fans-digest V1 #15
Reply-To: glencook-fans-digest
Sender: owner-glencook-fans-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-glencook-fans-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
glencook-fans-digest Tuesday, August 15 2000 Volume 01 : Number 015
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 19:07:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Dutton <craigld@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) newbie talks about Cook and the Black Company
- --- Bill Acuff <wacuff@edge.net> wrote:
> By the way, anybody know where I can score a decent copy of any of the
> following (especially the Dread Empire books and Doomstalker)?
>
> October's Baby, All Darkness Met, An Ill Fate Marshalling, Passage At Arms,
> Doomstalker, The Dragon Never Sleeps, The Heirs of Babylon, A Matter of
> Time, Sung in Blood, The Swap Academy.
Check the online auction sites. Warning: I've seen the Dread Empire Trilogy go
for $39 in paperback as a set on ebay.
And Bookfinder.com has a long list that includes Dragon and Doomstalker, among
many others. Again, prices can get high [With Mercy towards none goes for
$25-$30 US, Stars' End $29-$35, Ill Fate $7-$15, Dragon Never Sleeps at
$15-$20].
> Once I score copies of these, I'll have all of Glen's novels except for the
> Garrett stuff. I haven't tried any of that yet--maybe I will one of these
> days.
I've been able to get everything [including the Garrett stuff] but Sung in
Blood and the Swap Academy, plus some of the short fiction, all at decent
prices. The key is to be persistent, and stop regularly at used bookstores,
flea markets, etc. It only took me 5 years to come across a copy of With Mercy
Towards None. :-(
The 'net makes it easier, especially if you're impatient and have the money to
spend.
I don't have the money, or I'd be buying that W&S instead of telling people
about it.
Craig
>
> Enough for now.
>
> L8r,
>
> Bill Acuff
> wacuff@edge.net
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail û Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 22:04:35 -0500
From: Steve Harris <harrissg@slu.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Soldiers Live discussion (***SPOILERS*** from all ofCook's BC novels)
Bill, et al.,
[MORE SPOILER]
Yes, there is quite a bit of gratuitous lopping off of major characters
in SL (my nomination for most unnecessary death: the prince).
Sloppy writing? Making sure of no more sequels? I don't think so.
Remember the title (and catch-phrase): Soldiers live. And wonder why.
This is a book about survivor's guilt. And so Cook heaps it on. I
almost wonder that Lady didn't join the Reaper's grim army; but I guess
that would have made it just maudlin.
That is what gives the entire Glittering Stone set its poignance; what
puts the emotional capstone in the BC saga: Croaker sees one after
another of his comrades, old and new, die--some gloriously, some
necessarily, some inevitably, but too damned many just for being stupid
at the wrong time (the multiple SL debacles). It's the fortunes of war;
and for Croaker, that means the fortunes of life.
Croaker lives.
And wonders why.
Steve
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visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 22:28:05 -0500
From: "Bill Acuff" <wacuff@edge.net>
Subject: (glencook-fans) More Black Company discussion (no spoilers)
Win wrote:
> Welcome to the list, Bill. You have posted some very
> interesting comments.
Thank you.
> You might want to look for the
> White Company by Arthur Conan Doyle. It is about a
> free company during the Hundred Years War.
> Someone posted the Gutenburg link a while back, but
> I don't have the URL.
You're serious? The *White* Company? . . . . Yes, I checked around on the
'net and of course you are. Sir Conan Doyle, the author of the Sherlock
Holmes mysteries, even considers this book to be his finest work, according
to one web site. Man, that's something. The book is still available on
Amazon.com, and a review there mentions the book describing the "harsher
realities of medieval war." So it is likely that a book written in the
1800s, and based on historical events, could be at least somewhat
responsible for Cook's series--even the very *name* of it? Anybody ever
approach Glen with this? He's a military history buff, right? Makes sense to
me.
The British history book I am using says the following about livery and
maintenance during the Hundred Years War: "This was part of a wide-spread
pattern of 'bastard feudalism,' in which many great lords had retainers by
the hundreds or even thousands, held in line by pay instead of the land
tenure and lord-vassal relationship of normal feudalism. Most numerous among
these retainers were the fighting men, recipients of 'livery and
maintenance' from the lord, who thus had a regular little standing army of
his own, which wore his livery with his particular device, or coat of arms,
and which was supported in his pay or protected in case of trouble."
Incredibly interesting stuff! Even a direct historical influence for
Soulcatcher's badge!
> As far as finding old books, I haven't had much luck
> in Nashville (I noticed the email address...and as a
> former Edge employee, it stuck out like a very sore thumb).
Yeah, you had me going for a second ("How does he know where I live?"
<grin>). The only luck I've had at all is scouring the 'net for used books
(ABE search, for instance).
> By the way, your quote is originally from Groucho Marx.
Right you are again, and thanks so much. The mag I got that out of didn't
specify. I checked on the 'net but couldn't find exactly when, or, more
importantly, *where* he said this, though. Any ideas?
L8r,
Bill Acuff
wacuff@edge.net
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. And inside of a dog, it's
too dark to read." - Groucho Marx.
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 21:05:27 -0700
From: Lee Childs <childsl@earthlink.net>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Black Company Favorites
1. Black Company
2. Shadows Linger & Silver Spike
3. White Rose, Soldiers Live
Lee Childs
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 21:04:34 -0700
From: Malik Coates <malikcoates@flashmail.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) deaths in SOLDIERS LIVE
SPOILERS for SOLDIERS LIVE
- -
- -
- -
- -
- -
- -
- -
- -
- -
- -
- -
- -
- -
- -
- -
- -
- -
- -
- -
- -
- -
- -
The title could have come from the phrase, "A few soldiers live, but
most die and don't even get a one line mention in the annals."
A few of the highlight deaths in this book:
Goblin, blown to bits.
Mogaba, killed by giant duck.
The prince, just for being too close to the action.
Sleepy, crispy fried critter.
Narayan, a just end for the guy i think.
The Daughter of Night, killed by ennui.
And many many more.
There were even a couple deaths that really should have happened, like
Lady accidentally touching Catcher in the Ice. What would lady have
said after that? "Wooops, Sorry 'bout that." and really Longshadow
should have been killed before they could repair the gate. Having
Shadows conquer the world would have really been ending the series with
a bang. I get the sense that Mr. Cook debated with himself for while on
if Longshadow should die or not.
My question is with so many great endings, which is your favorite? I
think Mogaba's death really stands out. I wanted it to be one of the
old crew that finally took this guy out, but oh well. I just love
Coaker's description of Mogaba's thoughts. I think Croaker liked Mogaba
a lot more than he liked most of the guys in the company.
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 08:23:20 -0400
From: "Scott Vandenberg" <svandenb@mailer.fsu.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Favorite BC book
The Dragon Never sleeps is his best work by far.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Matthew Roche <rocheml@cerebusnm.com>
To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 12:52 PM
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Favorite BC book
> i think that _the white rose_ is my favorite black company book. the
> juxtaposition of the dominator's resurgence with the mystery letters
coming
> from the barrowland (i just love 'views into the past' and similar plot
> devices) and the way the two plotlines converged was just masterful. that,
> combined with the denouement involving the dominator, the lady, the white
> rose and the near total destruction of the company made for a book that's
> hard to beat.
>
> although if you were asking about cook novels in general, you can't beat
> _the dragon never sleeps_...
>
> (begging for argument)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Glenn Hoetker [mailto:ghoetker@umich.edu]
> Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2000 10:26 AM
> To: Glen Cook Fans
> Subject: (glencook-fans) Favorite BC book
>
>
> Having just finished SL (much to the detriment of my dissertation!), I was
> curious what _single_ BC book was people's favorite and why--now that it
> appears Glen has given us the whole set. Anyone have an opinion they'd be
> willing to share (good bet in this group!)?
>
> For myself, I still the think the book that hooked me on the whole thing,
> The Black Company, is the winner. I like that the villians (and heroes!)
> are still villianous and mysterious--Raven is still a bad-a**, Lady is
> humanizing but not yet humanized, Soulcatcher is still somewhat distant,
> Limper still sane enough to be a threat and the Dominator a scary beast in
> the ground. Even more peripheral characters, like Harding and Whisper,
have
> a hardness and resiliance I didn't find as consistently in the subsequent
> books. Since the Company is still together, the narrative is coherent and
> continuous, which I like (personal taste). Less feeling of the Company as
a
> pawn of greater celestial powers. And, much as I respect Cook for letting
> his characters age, decay and even die, several of my favorite characters
> (One-Eye and Goblin, mainly) are more fun when they are still spry.
>
> That said, I love the all, even Silver Spike.
>
> Others?
> -----
> Glenn Hoetker
> ghoetker@umich.edu
> PhD Candidate, International Business &
> Corporate Strategy
> University of Michigan Business School
>
>
> =======================================================================
> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
> =======================================================================
> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
=======================================================================
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 08:35:26 -0400
From: "Scott Vandenberg" <svandenb@mailer.fsu.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) newbie talks about Cook and the Black Company
I also have all of those titles, except Swap Acadamy and Sung In Blood
which was a convention release only and very rare, or so I am told). My
best luck was at www.abebooks.com and of course ebay.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Craig Dutton <craigld@yahoo.com>
To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) newbie talks about Cook and the Black Company
> --- Bill Acuff <wacuff@edge.net> wrote:
> > By the way, anybody know where I can score a decent copy of any of the
> > following (especially the Dread Empire books and Doomstalker)?
> >
> > October's Baby, All Darkness Met, An Ill Fate Marshalling, Passage At
Arms,
> > Doomstalker, The Dragon Never Sleeps, The Heirs of Babylon, A Matter of
> > Time, Sung in Blood, The Swap Academy.
>
> Check the online auction sites. Warning: I've seen the Dread Empire
Trilogy go
> for $39 in paperback as a set on ebay.
>
> And Bookfinder.com has a long list that includes Dragon and Doomstalker,
among
> many others. Again, prices can get high [With Mercy towards none goes for
> $25-$30 US, Stars' End $29-$35, Ill Fate $7-$15, Dragon Never Sleeps at
> $15-$20].
>
>
> > Once I score copies of these, I'll have all of Glen's novels except for
the
> > Garrett stuff. I haven't tried any of that yet--maybe I will one of
these
> > days.
>
> I've been able to get everything [including the Garrett stuff] but Sung in
> Blood and the Swap Academy, plus some of the short fiction, all at decent
> prices. The key is to be persistent, and stop regularly at used
bookstores,
> flea markets, etc. It only took me 5 years to come across a copy of With
Mercy
> Towards None. :-(
>
> The 'net makes it easier, especially if you're impatient and have the
money to
> spend.
>
> I don't have the money, or I'd be buying that W&S instead of telling
people
> about it.
>
> Craig
> >
> > Enough for now.
> >
> > L8r,
> >
> > Bill Acuff
> > wacuff@edge.net
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
> http://mail.yahoo.com/
>
> =======================================================================
> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
=======================================================================
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 08:38:09 -0400
From: "Scott Vandenberg" <svandenb@mailer.fsu.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Soldiers Live discussion (***SPOILERS*** from allofCook's BC novels)
Well, you have to leave room for the books of the east and west ( all ten of
my fingers are crossed as I type this).
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Harris <harrissg@slu.edu>
To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 11:04 PM
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Soldiers Live discussion (***SPOILERS*** from
allofCook's BC novels)
> Bill, et al.,
>
>
>
> [MORE SPOILER]
>
>
>
>
> Yes, there is quite a bit of gratuitous lopping off of major characters
> in SL (my nomination for most unnecessary death: the prince).
>
> Sloppy writing? Making sure of no more sequels? I don't think so.
>
> Remember the title (and catch-phrase): Soldiers live. And wonder why.
>
> This is a book about survivor's guilt. And so Cook heaps it on. I
> almost wonder that Lady didn't join the Reaper's grim army; but I guess
> that would have made it just maudlin.
>
> That is what gives the entire Glittering Stone set its poignance; what
> puts the emotional capstone in the BC saga: Croaker sees one after
> another of his comrades, old and new, die--some gloriously, some
> necessarily, some inevitably, but too damned many just for being stupid
> at the wrong time (the multiple SL debacles). It's the fortunes of war;
> and for Croaker, that means the fortunes of life.
>
> Croaker lives.
>
> And wonders why.
>
>
> Steve
>
> =======================================================================
> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
=======================================================================
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visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 06:47:24 -0600
From: Matthew Roche <rocheml@cerebusnm.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) newbie talks about Cook and the Black Company
i'm in the same situation. i used to travel a lot for business and had the
opportunity to visit used book stores all across the country. after about
three years of that i had all but 12 (apart from the swap academy and sung
in blood) books and was able to find those online in about a month. i also
had excellent luck at the amazon.com zshops, particularly with a golden,
colorado bookseller called 'just books.' i actually gave the owner (judy at
justbooks@aol.com) a list of books i was missing and she would email me when
she found them. her prices were usually about half of what you'd find at
abebooks or ebay (i personally hate ebay, so i'm biased here...) and she was
very pleasant.
(i am in no way affiliated with this store. i just realized that this reads
like a sales pitch...)
- -----Original Message-----
From: Scott Vandenberg [mailto:svandenb@mailer.fsu.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 8:35 AM
To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) newbie talks about Cook and the Black
Company
I also have all of those titles, except Swap Acadamy and Sung In Blood
which was a convention release only and very rare, or so I am told). My
best luck was at www.abebooks.com and of course ebay.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Craig Dutton <craigld@yahoo.com>
To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) newbie talks about Cook and the Black Company
> --- Bill Acuff <wacuff@edge.net> wrote:
> > By the way, anybody know where I can score a decent copy of any of the
> > following (especially the Dread Empire books and Doomstalker)?
> >
> > October's Baby, All Darkness Met, An Ill Fate Marshalling, Passage At
Arms,
> > Doomstalker, The Dragon Never Sleeps, The Heirs of Babylon, A Matter of
> > Time, Sung in Blood, The Swap Academy.
>
> Check the online auction sites. Warning: I've seen the Dread Empire
Trilogy go
> for $39 in paperback as a set on ebay.
>
> And Bookfinder.com has a long list that includes Dragon and Doomstalker,
among
> many others. Again, prices can get high [With Mercy towards none goes for
> $25-$30 US, Stars' End $29-$35, Ill Fate $7-$15, Dragon Never Sleeps at
> $15-$20].
>
>
> > Once I score copies of these, I'll have all of Glen's novels except for
the
> > Garrett stuff. I haven't tried any of that yet--maybe I will one of
these
> > days.
>
> I've been able to get everything [including the Garrett stuff] but Sung in
> Blood and the Swap Academy, plus some of the short fiction, all at decent
> prices. The key is to be persistent, and stop regularly at used
bookstores,
> flea markets, etc. It only took me 5 years to come across a copy of With
Mercy
> Towards None. :-(
>
> The 'net makes it easier, especially if you're impatient and have the
money to
> spend.
>
> I don't have the money, or I'd be buying that W&S instead of telling
people
> about it.
>
> Craig
> >
> > Enough for now.
> >
> > L8r,
> >
> > Bill Acuff
> > wacuff@edge.net
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
> http://mail.yahoo.com/
>
> =======================================================================
> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
=======================================================================
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 13:16:53 -0300
From: Richard Chilton <rchilton@auracom.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) newbie talks about Cook and the Black Company
Note - spoilers for The Silver Spike
Bill Acuff wrote:
>
> Cook sure does a good job of making us like "bad" characters, doesn't he?
I have a different point of view here. Cook does a great job of using
greys and getting us to root for the greyish-black guys.
> Raven, all by himself, is worthy of an entire series of novels, IMO. I read
Look at Raven:
When we first meet him he kills his wife and two of her friends in cold
blood. He has a few other people to kill before he can join up. He's
an emotionless killing machine, a real bad-ass.
Then he risks his life (and the company) to rescue a little girl who's
being raped. Nothing to gain, just a moral stand. By The Silver Spike
he's gone from emotionless killing machine to a complete character with
understandable motivations. The way he winces when his son dismisses
him in The Silver Spike - combined with the look on his face when he
kills his wife in The Black Company - makes him realer than most
characters. He never becomes a good guy, but you feel for him.
Or Crocker in The Black Company - a guy who has no problem hanging out
with Mercy; who wanders the field filled with raping, looting, and basic
slaughter after the Amazon camp is taken without batting an eye; who
(after countless battlefields) still is upset to see dead children; and
who looks out for Darling when Raven isn't around.
No one can call Crocker a good guy based on his actions in The Black
Company, but you can't really call him a bad guy either.
Or - well, any bad character. If they stay around long enough we learn
things about them that turn them from bad guys to greyish-black at
worse. The Limper is being malipulated by everyone. Soulcatcher still
has those issues with her sister. The Lady just wanted to build an
empire and be left along. Even the 'bad' guys in the later books are
rounded - the royal family is against the company because they see their
position as self defense; the shadow masters are worried (in some cases
scaried out of their minds) about the shadows and need a power base to
contain them; the stranglers are doing the will of their goddess; the
Daughter of Darkness is just a pawn; etc.
> As an amateur writer ("amateur" because I haven't actually sold anything,
> "writer" because I've actually completed a few things) I appreciate
> creativity. And I think for me the ultimate writing experience would be to
> create an entire world (geography, people, history, social and economic and
> cultural issues, etc) out of cloth and populate it with interesting people
> doing very interesting things--just like Glen has done many times.
>
Actually, Cook didn't do that - create the entire world that is. All
he's made is what he needs and there are plently of blank spots left.
At least that's the impression given when people have asked him
questions at conventions and he'd replied "I don't know" (or words to
that effect).
There are two main styles of world creation. One is to do the whole
world at the start (or at least sometime), and the other is to do just
what you need and leave the rest blank. Tolken did all of middle earth,
Cook has left (nameless world of the Black Company) blank until he
needed it.
Richard
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 13:17:01 -0300
From: Richard Chilton <rchilton@auracom.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) group protagonists
Steve Harris wrote:
>
> Hi, all,
>
> Being at a university has its advantages :)
>
> Today I was talking with an English professor friend of mine, so I
> brought up the subject matter I've raised: What literary precedents are
> there to having, as moral center or protagonist of a story, a group of
> changing people?
>
Have you suggested The Black Company to him? Sci-fi and Fantasy often
gets over looked by academics (look at how much trouble Lovecraft is
still having being taken seriously), and I'd love to see a literary
analyse of The Black Company. It would definately be a new point of
view.
> He immediately suggested two:
>
> _Thin Red Line_ by James Jones (author of _From Here to Eternity_)
I've seen the movie - which probably butchered the book.
> _White Jacket_ by Herman Melville
>
> The first is about an army company; the second about a ship's company.
> I think it no accident that miliarty or quasi-military novels are the
> only antecedents he could think of to the Black Company.
>
Military situations are usually the only ones where you find a group
working together for a long period of time surrounded by events
interesting enough to write about. I'm having problems thinking about
any other 'unit' that could be written about. Quasi-military groups
(like a ship's crew) are the only thing that comes to mind.
Richard
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 11:45:00 -0500
From: "PrimalChrome" <chrome@wwisp.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) anti-heroes....the Company
I recently introduced "The Black Company" to a local book club that I'm
involved in. The responses were mixed, but all seemed to revolve around
exactly what you're covering here. (I'm simplifying the comments and
leaving out some of the off-topic comments.)
The Pro-BC crowd - We liked the gritty realism. We liked the fact that the
characters were human and had flaws and even some of the enemies had their
human traits.
The Anti-BC crowd - There isn't a white knight. I just couldn't find anyone
to root for. I couldn't feel sorry for Croaker when he was whining about
XXX.
Seems that there are a lot of readers out there that are really dependent on
having a white knight to try to identify with, rather than characters with
more realistic motivations. I wonder if this isn't a American Culture
(failures/imperfections != hero) thing....any readers from across the pond
have any comments??? This was a bit of an eye opener for me as my group of
gaming/roleplay/reading friends all enjoy the Black Company. Then again,
they're a pretty nasty bunch full of base cunning when it comes to getting a
job done.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Chilton" <rchilton@auracom.com>
To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 11:16 AM
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) newbie talks about Cook and the Black Company
Note - spoilers for The Silver Spike
Look at Raven:
When we first meet him he kills his wife and two of her friends in cold
blood. He has a few other people to kill before he can join up. He's
an emotionless killing machine, a real bad-ass.
Then he risks his life (and the company) to rescue a little girl who's
being raped. Nothing to gain, just a moral stand. By The Silver Spike
he's gone from emotionless killing machine to a complete character with
understandable motivations. The way he winces when his son dismisses
him in The Silver Spike - combined with the look on his face when he
kills his wife in The Black Company - makes him realer than most
characters. He never becomes a good guy, but you feel for him.
Or Crocker in The Black Company - a guy who has no problem hanging out
with Mercy; who wanders the field filled with raping, looting, and basic
slaughter after the Amazon camp is taken without batting an eye; who
(after countless battlefields) still is upset to see dead children; and
who looks out for Darling when Raven isn't around.
No one can call Crocker a good guy based on his actions in The Black
Company, but you can't really call him a bad guy either.
Or - well, any bad character. If they stay around long enough we learn
things about them that turn them from bad guys to greyish-black at
worse. The Limper is being malipulated by everyone. Soulcatcher still
has those issues with her sister. The Lady just wanted to build an
empire and be left along. Even the 'bad' guys in the later books are
rounded - the royal family is against the company because they see their
position as self defense; the shadow masters are worried (in some cases
scaried out of their minds) about the shadows and need a power base to
contain them; the stranglers are doing the will of their goddess; the
Daughter of Darkness is just a pawn; etc.
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:49:01 -0700
From: "Sam Felice" <SFelice@getty.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) group protagonists
> Today I was talking with an English professor friend of mine, so I
> brought up the subject matter I've raised: What literary precedents are
> there to having, as moral center or protagonist of a story, a group of
> changing people?
>=20
> He immediately suggested two:
>=20
> _Thin Red Line_ by James Jones (author of _From Here to Eternity_)
> _White Jacket_ by Herman Melville
While I've never read either book, I have seen The Thin Red Line in it's =
recent movie adaptation. I think it's interesting that one of the things =
that I very much disliked about the story was the fact that characters =
would come and go with no apparent explanation. I realize that this is a =
movie about war, and that people get transferred and/or killed and you =
never hear from them again all the time. But when you're watching a movie =
or reading a book, you like to know what happens with any character that =
could be considered a protagonist, or even part of a group protagonist.
I think that one of the things that makes the Black Company style group =
protagonist work is that, because the books are written from the annalist =
POV, that all of the dead and missing are "accounted for" by the annalist. =
It's the annalists job to note the names of the dead and/or presumed =
dead. The annalist has an interest in knowing the fate of his friends (as =
well as his enemies) and so is able to satisfy OUR interest in knowing =
their fate. =20
In contrast, with a movie like Thin Red Line, we don't have anybody "on =
the inside" who is concerned about finding out what happened to so-and-so. =
It's a war, and everybody knows that they may wake up one day and get =
transferred to a new company. Everybody knows that you get sent off by =
one Captain, and when you come back, you've got a new Captain with no =
explanation of what happened to the old one. And while it's probably more =
realistic (at least in the situation where there's nobody "on the inside" =
concerned with giving us the low-down), it's also very annoying, at least =
to me personally.
So, even though there are parallels that can be drawn between the 'group =
protagonist' style of writing, I'd say there are ways in which it works =
(for me, anyway) and ways that it definately doesn't (again, personal =
opinion).
I'd also, as an aside, mention that the changing group dynamic may be the =
one of the reasons that the books of the North are more popular than the =
books of the South. Even though there were people who didn't make it out =
of the North, there was a certain core membership to the company that we =
started out with, and ended up with. Silent, Goblin, One-eye, Croaker, =
Raven, the Lieutennant, and several others. They gave the changing group =
a feeling of continuity. =20
When a large chunk of that core group left us, we begin to feel like =
Croaker does. Like everything is changed, most of the faces around are =
different from those he started his journey with. He's now the alien =
rather than the familiar. And I think that in the context of the books, =
it works very well. It gives us a better feel for how the company has =
worked for 400 years. Faces come and go. The composition of the company =
changes, even while the company goes on. The old timers teach the new =
guys how the company works, and those new guys go on to become the old =
timers and eventually teach the next generation how to carry on the =
company traditions. It's the never-ending cycle of which we were witness =
to a specific part. And I think that timelessness is what gives the Black =
Company books the (I hate to say gritty because that's what everyone says, =
but...) gritty realism that we get. We know nobody lives forever. =
Soldiers Live. And wonder why.
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 12:00:23 -0500
From: "Warner, Jon" <Jon.Warner@ps.net>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) group protagonists
Sam wrote:
"I'd also, as an aside, mention that the changing group dynamic may be the
one of the reasons that the books of the North are more popular than the
books of the South. Even though there were people who didn't make it out of
the North, there was a certain core membership to the company that we
started out with, and ended up with. Silent, Goblin, One-eye, Croaker,
Raven, the Lieutenant, and several others. They gave the changing group a
feeling of continuity."
I think the analyst's readings (which we saw quite a bit of in the
North) were key to the group dynamic. I don't recall the analyst doing too
many readings in the South, but perhaps my memory is going out on me. Does
anyone remember the Readings being done much in the South? As an
interesting side line, this technique was used extensively by the French
Foreign Legion.
Jonathan
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sam Felice [mailto:SFelice@getty.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 10:49 AM
> To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) group protagonists
>
>
> > Today I was talking with an English professor friend of mine, so I
> > brought up the subject matter I've raised: What literary
> precedents are
> > there to having, as moral center or protagonist of a story,
> a group of
> > changing people?
> >
> > He immediately suggested two:
> >
> > _Thin Red Line_ by James Jones (author of _From Here to Eternity_)
> > _White Jacket_ by Herman Melville
>
> While I've never read either book, I have seen The Thin Red
> Line in it's recent movie adaptation. I think it's
> interesting that one of the things that I very much disliked
> about the story was the fact that characters would come and
> go with no apparent explanation. I realize that this is a
> movie about war, and that people get transferred and/or
> killed and you never hear from them again all the time. But
> when you're watching a movie or reading a book, you like to
> know what happens with any character that could be considered
> a protagonist, or even part of a group protagonist.
>
> I think that one of the things that makes the Black Company
> style group protagonist work is that, because the books are
> written from the annalist POV, that all of the dead and
> missing are "accounted for" by the annalist. It's the
> annalists job to note the names of the dead and/or presumed
> dead. The annalist has an interest in knowing the fate of
> his friends (as well as his enemies) and so is able to
> satisfy OUR interest in knowing their fate.
>
> In contrast, with a movie like Thin Red Line, we don't have
> anybody "on the inside" who is concerned about finding out
> what happened to so-and-so. It's a war, and everybody knows
> that they may wake up one day and get transferred to a new
> company. Everybody knows that you get sent off by one
> Captain, and when you come back, you've got a new Captain
> with no explanation of what happened to the old one. And
> while it's probably more realistic (at least in the situation
> where there's nobody "on the inside" concerned with giving us
> the low-down), it's also very annoying, at least to me personally.
>
> So, even though there are parallels that can be drawn between
> the 'group protagonist' style of writing, I'd say there are
> ways in which it works (for me, anyway) and ways that it
> definitely doesn't (again, personal opinion).
>
> I'd also, as an aside, mention that the changing group
> dynamic may be the one of the reasons that the books of the
> North are more popular than the books of the South. Even
> though there were people who didn't make it out of the North,
> there was a certain core membership to the company that we
> started out with, and ended up with. Silent, Goblin,
> One-eye, Croaker, Raven, the Lieutenant, and several others.
> They gave the changing group a feeling of continuity.
>
> When a large chunk of that core group left us, we begin to
> feel like Croaker does. Like everything is changed, most of
> the faces around are different from those he started his
> journey with. He's now the alien rather than the familiar.
> And I think that in the context of the books, it works very
> well. It gives us a better feel for how the company has
> worked for 400 years. Faces come and go. The composition of
> the company changes, even while the company goes on. The old
> timers teach the new guys how the company works, and those
> new guys go on to become the old timers and eventually teach
> the next generation how to carry on the company traditions.
> It's the never-ending cycle of which we were witness to a
> specific part. And I think that timelessness is what gives
> the Black Company books the (I hate to say gritty because
> that's what everyone says, but...) gritty realism that we
> get. We know nobody lives forever. Soldiers Live. And wonder why.
>
>
>
> ==============================================================
> ======== To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of
> this list,
> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
=======================================================================
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visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:20:49 -0500
From: "Vonder Haar, Peter C." <Peter.VonderHaar@bakerhughes.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) The FAQ V.0.2
In the grand tradition of online discussion, I'm going to drop the latest
incarnation of the FAQ in your laps and promptly go to Maine for a week.
E-mail me any feedback you have (I've already gotten and incorporated some
very good comments) and I'll jump back into it when I get back.
Known Gaps:
- I don't have the short stories in chronolgical order
- It was suggested that I might want to include publisher info. I don't
consider it a bad idea, just a time consuming one, especially since I'll
need to include publication info for the short stories.
- I haven't checked out the latest archives to resolve who the 3rd female
taken was (though I suspect there was no actual resolution to this question)
- After this e-mail, we may want to consider posting this on the web for
review, as opposed to me mailing it to everbody on the list every week or so
until it's finished.
- No, it's still not in official FAQ format. I think I've gotten the
questions into a more logical order, however.
Thanks,
Pete
- ------------
The Glen Cook FAQ
Q: Who is this Glen Cook fellow anyway?
A: Glen Charles Cook was born in 1944 in New York City. He has lived in
Columbus, Indiana; Rocklin, California; and Columbia, Missouri, where he
attended the state university (The University of Missouri). He attended the
Clarion Writers Workshop in 1970, where he met his wife, Carol. He is the
author of, among others, the Black Company series; the Garrett, P.I. series;
the Dread Empire series; the Starfishers trilogy; and the Darkwar trilogy.
He has three children.
From "Winter's Dreams"
(http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/Books/WntrDrms.html)
"Glen's hobbies include stamp collecting, book collecting, and a
passing interest in military history. Usually Glen can be found behind a
huckster table at those conventions he attends. So, if you are in the
dealer's room buying one of his books, and the man behind the table asks if
you want it signed, chances are you just met him."
Q; What are some Glen Cook web sites?
A: There are several.
The most comprehensive site by far is Eric Herrmann's Glen Cook Fan Page -
http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Home.html
The Black Company Homepage - http://www.shout.net/~bburgner/blackco.html
Eldon the Seer's Black Company Outpost -
http://members.tripod.com/~blackco/
Ender's Black Company page - http://www.angelfire.com/bc/blackcompany/
The Black Company Index - http://www.connectexpress.com/~rfr/bcompany1.html
Tor - Cook's publisher - http://www.tor.com/tor.html
A much more exhaustive list can be found at
http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Links.html
Q: Is it true Cook works in an auto plant?
A: Mr. Cook used to work in a GM light truck plant in St. Louis. He has
since retired.
Q: Did Cook ever serve in the military?
A: Short answer: Yes.
From "A (Pseudo) Interview with Glen Cook:"
(http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Biog2.html)
"Eight years Navy and Navy Reserve with four years high school ROTC
beforehand. For a while I thought it was what I wanted to do with my life.
Served aboard destroyers and with a Marine Force Recon outfit as Forward
Fire Control Observer."
According to "Winter's Dreams," Cook served with the 3rd Marine Recon
Battalion.
Q: How can I contact him? Does he have an e-mail address?
A: It is pretty widely acknowledged that Glen does not have an e-mail
address and, in fact, is not very enamored of computers in general. A more
reliable method to get in touch with Glen is to attend a Con at which he's
running a table. If that's out of the question, Glen has a mailing address
where fans can request autographs and hard to find books of his:
The Dragon Never Sleeps
4106 Flora Place
St. Louis, MO 63110
Note that this is not a physical store to visit, per se, but a
private service run by Glen for people seeking specific books. It is also
not a pen-pal service. As Glen reminds us:
"Matters of courtesy to recall when writing your favorite authors.
There is one of him and many of you. It takes away from writing to answer
letters. It costs money to answer letters when you do not include a Stamped
Self-Addressed Envelope. Only a handful of writers make any money writing."
Q: What has he written?
A: The Black Company: From the Files of Garrett
P.I.
The Books of the North Sweet Silver Blues (1987)
The Black Company (1984) Bitter Gold Hearts (1988)
Shadows Linger (1984) Cold Copper Tears (1988)
The White Rose (1985) Old Tin Sorrows (1989)
Dread Brass Shadows (1990)
The Silver Spike (1989) Red Iron Nights (1991)
Deadly Quicksilver Lies
(1994)
The Books of the South Petty Pewter Gods (1995)
Shadow Games (1989) Faded Steel Heat (1999)
Dreams of Steel (1990)
Collections
Glittering Stone The Garrett Files (containing Sweet Silver Blues,
Bitter Gold Hearts, and Cold Copper Tears) (1988)
Bleak Seasons (1996)
She Is the Darkness (1997)
Water Sleeps (1998)
Soldiers Live (2000)
Collections
The Annals of the Black Company
(containing The Black Company,
Shadows Linger, and The White Rose)
(1986)
The Haunting Dread Empire The Starfishers Trilogy
Prequels Shadowline (1982)
The Fire in His Hands (1984) Starfishers (1982)
With Mercy Towards None (1985) Star's End (1982)
The Dread Empire Trilogy Passage at Arms
(1985)
A Shadow of All Night Falling (1979)
October's Baby (1980)
All Darkness Met (1980)
Sequels
Reap the East Wind (1987)
An Ill Fate Marshalling (1988)
Future works
A Path to Coldness of the Heart
The Cruel Storm
The Darkwar Trilogy Others
Doomstalker (1985) The Swap Academy (as Greg Stevens)
(1970)
Warlock (1985) The Heirs of Babylon (1972)
Ceremony (1986) The Swordbearer (1982)
A Matter of Time (1985)
The Dragon Never Sleeps (1988)
The Tower of Fear (1989)
Sung in Blood (1990)
Short Stories
And Dragons in the Sky
Appointment in Samarkand
Call for the Dead
Castle of Tears
Darkwar
Devil's Tooth, The
Enemy Territory
Filed Teeth
Ghost Stalk
In the Wind
Nights of Deadful Silence, The
Ponce
Quiet Sea
Raker
Recruiter, The
Seventh Fool, The
Severed Heads
Silverheels
Soldier of an Empire Unacquainted With Defeat
Song From A Forgotten Hill
Sunrise
Waiting Sea, The
Winter's Dreams
Cook has said the planned Dread Empire books are "unlikely to appear."
According to later reports, this might be viewed as an understatement.
Q: Where can I find a copy of...Dread Empire books? Starfishers books?
A: Cook's works are often popping up on different auction sites and book
search pages. Here are a few places to look:
ABE Books - http://www.abebooks.com
Alibris.com - http://www.alibris.com
Amazon - http://www.amazon.com
eBay - http://www.ebay.com
Bookfinder - http://www.bookfinder.com
Bibliofind - http://www.bibliofind.com
Barnes and Noble - http://www.bn.com
Border's Books - http://www.borders.com
The Dragon Never Sleeps (see below)...
Don't underestimate the power of used bookstores and flea markets. If you
check regularly several titles may turn up.
Occasionally, members of the mailing list have extras they are willing to
sell/trade for.
Q: What is this mailing list you keep referring to?
A: You can sign up for the Glen Cook Fans Mailing List by sending a message
to majordomo@xmission.com with "subscribe glencook-fans" in the body.
If you prefer to receive messages in digest form, send a message to
majordomo@xmission.com
with "subscribe glencook-fans-digest" in the body.
Q: What's Glen's best book?
A: Depends on who you ask. Some love The Tower of Fear, others favor The
Dragon Never Sleeps, still more would say The Black Company. One thing's
for certain, nobody ever recommends The Swap Academy.
Q: Why not?
A: The Swap Academy was an adult book written under a pseudonym (Greg
Stevens). It
has nothing to do with his later work, and is included here only in the
interest of completeness.
Q: Is Glen planning on writing any more...
Dread Empire books?
A: Highly unlikely. The originals sold so poorly that it is apparently not
feasible for him to write any more, though he has said he has plots for
further books.
Black Company books?
A: Possibly. The ending of Soldiers Live (the latest Chronicle of the
Black Company) has inspired a healthy debate as to whether another book is
either possible or even desirable. However, during a Q&A session at
Windycon in 1999, Glen was asked about the possibility of starting a new
fantasy series and admitted, "I had expected to begin, and I would start
something entirely new, but my agent and my editor both are pressuring me to
do more Black Company material because they sell so well."
So there's hope...
Swordbearer books?
A: From "A (Pseudo) Interview...:"
"...I went ahead and wrote two-thirds of one called The Swordbreaker. Then
the editor got fired and the whole Timescape line folded and I quit working
on it. Looking at it later, I didn't think what I had done was very good, so
I ditched the whole project."
Garrett books?
A: Yes. The latest one has reportedly been sent to the editor.
Probably the definitive answer to some of these questions can be found
in a FAQ Glen himself put out circa 1992 or so:
"There will be no sequel to (take your pick) A Matter of Time, The
Swordbearer, The Dragon Never Sleeps, Tower of Fear, Passage at Arms, The
Starfishers Trilogy. Several more titles in the Dread Empire were planned
at one time but lack of commercial success makes it unlikely any will get
written."
Q: What other authors would you recommend for a fan of Cook's?
A: Many Cook readers look for authors that write with a gritty, realistic
(for fantasy/sci-fi) feel similar to his. Some names that have come up,
repeatedly, on the Glen Cook Mailing List include: Steven Brust (Vlad Taltos
series), Laurel Hamilton (Anita Blake series), David Gemmell (Drenai
series), George R. Martin, David Drake, MS Rohan (Winter of the World
series, Northworld trilogy), Iain M. Banks, Michael Moorcock (Elric of
Melnibone series), Robert Jordan.
This is by no means an exhaustive list.
BC QUESTIONS:
The "Black Company" series is Cook's most popular, without a doubt.
Q: What is Tonk?
A: A card game played by mercenaries of the Black Company throughout the
series to pass the time. The following sites have versions of the rules:
http://www.gamecabinet.com/rules/Tonk.html
http://www.bsfs.org/bsfstonk.htm
Q: Do any maps exist of the world of the Black Company novels?
A: Cook has never made any official maps, and has indicated he will never do
so. Some fan representations can be found at:
http://www.cofc.edu/~wraggj/blackco/
http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/Images/MapNorth.GIF
http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/Images/MapSouth.GIF
http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/Images/MapShadow.GIF
Q: Have any video games or RPG's been based on the Black Company novels?
A: No. At least, not directly.
The games "Myth: The Fallen Lords" and "Myth II: Soulblighter" are not based
directly on the Black Company series, but the similarities between the two
are enough to put that whole Lincoln-Kennedy thing to shame. "Eldon the
Seer" has a fine page dedicated to just this topic. You can find it here:
http://members.tripod.com/~blackco/myth-n-bc.html
For a time, The Blacksburg Tactical Research Center (BTRC), makers of CORPS,
attempted to obtain a license for developing a Black Company setting. It
was not successful. From http://www.btrc.com:
"A Black Company setting for CORPS is looking more and more unlikely
(sigh). The
license holders, while still expressing interest, have not shown that
interest by bothering to return my email and phone calls. If you are a fan
of this series and want to see a game adaptation, email me and them (see
email address below)."
The e-mail in question is IMAC100@aol.com, I'm unsure whether to print it or
not.
Q: What's Croaker's real name?
A: Marion Morrison. Kidding. It's never stated.
Q: Who were the Ten Who Were Taken?
A: From The Black Company:
"...I told him about the Domination, and the Dominator and his Lady.
Their rule had spanned an empire of evil unrivalled in Hell. I told him
about the Ten Who Were Taken (of which Soulcatcher was one), ten great
wizards, near-demigods in their power, who had been overcome by the
Dominator and compelled into his service. I told him about the White Rose,
the lady general who had brought the Domination down, but whose power had
been insufficient to destroy the Dominator, his Lady, and the Ten. She had
interred the lot in a charm-bound barrow somewhere north of the sea."
The original Ten Who Were Taken are/were:
Soulcatcher Moonbiter
The Howler The Faceless Man
The Limper Bonegnasher
Stormbringer Nightcrawler
Shapeshifter The Hanged Man
Throughout the Books of the North, the original Taken's numbers were
thinned by infighting and enemy action against the rebellion (in fact, all
but Soulcatcher, the Howler, and the Limper had died by the end of the
Battle of Charm). Several powerful members of the Circle of Eighteen, the
White Rose's high command, found themselves Taken as well:
Whisper Blister
Feather Creeper
Journey Learned
Benefice Scorn
Q: Who were the four Senjak sisters?
A:
Dorotea - The youngest daughter. Real name of The Lady.
Ardath - Name by which the Dominator knew Lady. In actuality, one of Lady's
sisters, who was killed before the ascent of the Dominator.
Credence - Married to Barthelme of Jaunt. Died when Jaunt was taken by the
Dominator and the Lady.
Sylith - Swept away when the River Dream flooded. Body never found. Widely
believed to be the real name of the Taken Soulcatcher.
Q: Who the hell is the 3rd female Taken?
A: From The Black Company:
"Three of the Taken are female, but which are which only the Lady
knows. We call them all he."
The two Taken we know to be female are Soulcatcher and Stormbringer.
Moonbiter? Nightcrawler? I need to research the archives a little more,
but other can feel free to enlighten me.
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End of glencook-fans-digest V1 #15
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