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glencook-fans-digest      Sunday, August 13 2000      Volume 01 : Number 012




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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 22:25:07 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) North vs. South !! (SL Spoilers)

In a message dated 8/12/00 3:16:36 PM, [e-mail] writes:

>While were on the topic The North vs The South. Who do u all think made
>better allies Tobo's unseen Folk or the Creatures of the Plain of Fear.
>To me its a hard choosing.

On the death scale it's got to go to the Plains creatures. The windwhales
alone
killed more. Add in the plain itself, the Tree god, and the other creatures
and
hand down the plains' folk got it. Besides, the plain had an infinite amount
of
creatures, and a lot more to start with.

The shadows didn't seem very scary.

"Oooohhhh, it's the size of a house!"
"Yeah, but it's a duck."
"A duck the size of a house."
"Yes, but a duck all the same, and when was the last time you were scared by
a duck?"

Lightning throwing birds, vanishing Menhirs, exploding wind whales sucking up
people with venomous tenticles, poisionous corals, slumbering gods under
near all-powerful trees. Got to give it to the plain.

christopher....

p.s. Eric, can't get the pages up.


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 23:16:37 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: (glencook-fans) Enough on Jordan!

In a message dated 8/11/00 5:39:11 PM, [e-mail] writes:

>That is a big peeve with me as well about Jordan...there is only one female
>character who isn't a walking characature of a given female flaw, and that
>is Moiraine.
>
>Wright

My biggest pet peeve with Jordan is how he can manage to come up on
a list that should have nothing to do with him. At best Cook is mentioned
barely in passing. No analysis between authors or specific characters,
and no, I don't think, Egwene "not [holding] a candle to Lady," counts
as any kind of contribution to the charter of this list.

Come on, it would be one thing if people had exhausted the topics
of discussion on the majority of Cook's books, but damn, he just
had a brand new one. Are we already tired of this book?

Robin Hobb has a brand new one, so does Spider Robinson, and Deborah
Christian, and Susan R. Mathews. Anyone read any of these? Are they
as good as Jordan? Let's go! Eric, change the listname, we're off and
running. Wanna speculate on Brust's new one? Only six months to go
before this one is out. Who cares about this Cook guy?
(Okay, I'm done with the sarcasm).

This is why I objected to bringing up other authors based solely on the
fact that we happen to agree that we all like ONE writer in common.
Read through this thread, seems like a poorly disguised effort to discuss
someone other than who the list is dedicated to. Read through for the
Cook content, and you'll see there is little. And what little there is is
impossible to understand for those of us who have not read the Phone
Books of Infinity. And what little was understandable was totally unsupported.

The are other listserves dedicated to Jordan, at least one newsgroup,
and many other groups where he's more than welcome. Take it there.

Please.

christopher....

In a message dated 8/11/00 7:54:07 PM, [e-mail] writes:

>Wright,
>
>I rather like Egwene.  She develops quite a bit in the later books.
>
>But, yes, not a candle to Lady.
>
>Steve


In a message dated 8/11/00 5:31:34 PM, [e-mail] writes:

>Jordan seems to be unable to write a feamle character without some sort
>of giant flaw.  Thumb through the characters
>in your mind, and maybe you'll agree with me.  Maybe not.  In either case,
>that series became unreadable to me after
>about the 5th book or so (or whichever one he wrote which completely ignored
>Perrin for the whole thing).  Cook
>gives his female chacters much more believable traits and you don't want
>to necessarily take the lot of them out and
>administer numerous behind kicks.
>
>Okay, maybe you want to kick some of them.  But that's okay.
>
>yer dog


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 10:25:35 -0400
From: "Glenn Hoetker" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Favorite BC book

Having just finished SL (much to the detriment of my dissertation!), I was
curious what _single_ BC book was people's favorite and why--now that it
appears Glen has given us the whole set.  Anyone have an opinion they'd be
willing to share (good bet in this group!)?

For myself, I still the think the book that hooked me on the whole thing,
The Black Company, is the winner.  I like that the villians (and heroes!)
are still villianous and mysterious--Raven is still a bad-a**, Lady is
humanizing but not yet humanized, Soulcatcher is still somewhat distant,
Limper still sane enough to be a threat and the Dominator a scary beast in
the ground.  Even more peripheral characters, like Harding and Whisper, have
a hardness and resiliance I didn't find as consistently in the subsequent
books.  Since the Company is still together, the narrative is coherent and
continuous, which I like (personal taste).  Less feeling of the Company as a
pawn of greater celestial powers.  And, much as I respect Cook for letting
his characters age, decay and even die, several of my favorite characters
(One-Eye and Goblin, mainly) are more fun when they are still spry.

That said, I love the all, even Silver Spike.

Others?
- -----
Glenn Hoetker
[e-mail]
PhD Candidate, International Business &
Corporate Strategy
University of Michigan Business School


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 11:40:20 -0600
From: Steve Harris <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Enough on Jordan!

CookReader,

If you'll recall, I brought up Jordan as a source of comparison for a
group of sorcerous baddies.  I think there was some good exchange on
that score, in terms of character development and strength of
do-unto-others.

In particular, the comparison of how many does it take of the heros'
side, to be comparable to one of the villains, makes for a strong point
of comparison and shows reason for the difference in structure of the
two cycles (which otherwise have surface similarities).  It's the
difference between one lone hero against the bad guy, on the one hand;
and the need for unified action, with clever unit tactics and long-term
strategies of deception, on the other.  I think the latter aspect is not
so immediately apparent as the source of Cook's uniquness, until
comparison is made with other cycles.  (Easy to say, "Of course it's
there!"--once it's pointed out.)

Indeed, one can see, by dint of such comparisons, that a major
difference in Cook's cycle is his emphasis on the *company* as the
central protagonist.  Not entirely, of course--Croaker is a recurring
figure, and Lady becomes one; but it's a strangely diffuse sort of
focus, over the span of 9 books.  While other cycles have as the central
moral motif, the development of the protagonist--generally from naive to
sophisticated, whether for ill or for good--Cook's cycle has the company
develop from naive mercenary to save-the-world-mission, without even
keeping the same people in the company (save for a very small number).

But it's only by comparison that this becomes evident as a central
difference.

Steve

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 12:47:20 -0500
From: "David George" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Favorite BC book

Tough question.  There are scenes and passages that really stand out all
through the books.  Raker, of course.  The opening of Shadows Linger, in the
Inn, great small unit ops stuff.  Lady's campaign after the fall of Croaker.
The Kiaulune Campaign was good, too, in my opinion, a chance to watch
Croaker in a different role and from a different viewpoint.  I think my
favorite single novel is still Black Company (for Croaker and Co. less than
Raven, who is not really my favorite), but Bleak Seasons and Water Sleeps
are close.

To be fair, it is tough to break up Glittering Stone.  It really reads like
a big-ass doorstop of a book that had to be broken into four volumes, which
is more or less what I've heard was the case.

DG

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Glenn Hoetker <[e-mail]>
To: Glen Cook Fans <[e-mail]>
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2000 9:25 AM
Subject: (glencook-fans) Favorite BC book


> Having just finished SL (much to the detriment of my dissertation!), I was
> curious what _single_ BC book was people's favorite and why--now that it
> appears Glen has given us the whole set.  Anyone have an opinion they'd be
> willing to share (good bet in this group!)?
>
> For myself, I still the think the book that hooked me on the whole thing,
> The Black Company, is the winner.  I like that the villians (and heroes!)
> are still villianous and mysterious--Raven is still a bad-a**, Lady is
> humanizing but not yet humanized, Soulcatcher is still somewhat distant,
> Limper still sane enough to be a threat and the Dominator a scary beast in
> the ground.  Even more peripheral characters, like Harding and Whisper,
have
> a hardness and resiliance I didn't find as consistently in the subsequent
> books.  Since the Company is still together, the narrative is coherent and
> continuous, which I like (personal taste).  Less feeling of the Company as
a
> pawn of greater celestial powers.  And, much as I respect Cook for letting
> his characters age, decay and even die, several of my favorite characters
> (One-Eye and Goblin, mainly) are more fun when they are still spry.
>
> That said, I love the all, even Silver Spike.
>
> Others?
> -----
> Glenn Hoetker
> [e-mail]
> PhD Candidate, International Business &
> Corporate Strategy
> University of Michigan Business School
>
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 14:40:41 -0700
From: "JM Rhodes" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Favorite BC book

Mine would be in this order:

Shadow Games (just liked the characters, and the dramatics of this one...
stands out for me)
The Silver Spike (I've said it before... good book, gets a bad rap
sometimes, but added a lot to the series for me)
Black Company (The original, and the one that introduced me to Cook. I still
get shivers when I read "In those days, the company was in the service of"))
Water Sleeps (just for Sleepy... )
Bleak Seasons ( I liked Slaughterhouse 5, too... go figure)
all the rest (I can't think of one I didn't enjoy....)

John

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Glenn
Hoetker
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2000 7:26 AM
To: Glen Cook Fans
Subject: (glencook-fans) Favorite BC book


Having just finished SL (much to the detriment of my dissertation!), I was
curious what _single_ BC book was people's favorite and why--now that it
appears Glen has given us the whole set.  Anyone have an opinion they'd be
willing to share (good bet in this group!)?

For myself, I still the think the book that hooked me on the whole thing,
The Black Company, is the winner.  I like that the villians (and heroes!)
are still villianous and mysterious--Raven is still a bad-a**, Lady is
humanizing but not yet humanized, Soulcatcher is still somewhat distant,
Limper still sane enough to be a threat and the Dominator a scary beast in
the ground.  Even more peripheral characters, like Harding and Whisper, have
a hardness and resiliance I didn't find as consistently in the subsequent
books.  Since the Company is still together, the narrative is coherent and
continuous, which I like (personal taste).  Less feeling of the Company as a
pawn of greater celestial powers.  And, much as I respect Cook for letting
his characters age, decay and even die, several of my favorite characters
(One-Eye and Goblin, mainly) are more fun when they are still spry.

That said, I love the all, even Silver Spike.

Others?
- -----
Glenn Hoetker
[e-mail]
PhD Candidate, International Business &
Corporate Strategy
University of Michigan Business School


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 22:41:54 -0600
From: Eric Herrmann <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Enough on Jordan!

on 8/13/00 11:40 AM, Steve Harris at [e-mail] wrote:
> If you'll recall, I brought up Jordan as a source of comparison for a
> group of sorcerous baddies.  I think there was some good exchange on
> that score, in terms of character development and strength of
> do-unto-others.

Comparisons are allowed on the list as long as they don't devolve into a
sole discussion of the other author or flame baiting. And given Jordan's
popularity, it is difficult to avoid using him for comparison.

The comparisons of the Forsaken, Nazguls and Taken has been good so far.

I understand Christopher's posts and it is a valid warning, though it may be
a bit overstated. There is a very good reason why rec.arts.sf.written.jordan
exists.

- --
Eric Herrmann
<[e-mail]>



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------------------------------

End of glencook-fans-digest V1 #12
**********************************

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