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glencook-fans-digest     Saturday, August 12 2000     Volume 01 : Number 011




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 18:42:29 -0400
From: "C.L. Yona" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: Taken & Forsaken (no spoilers)

Jordan seems to be unable to write a feamle character without some sort of giant flaw.  Thumb through the characters
in your mind, and maybe you'll agree with me.  Maybe not.  In either case, that series became unreadable to me after
about the 5th book or so (or whichever one he wrote which completely ignored Perrin for the whole thing).  Cook
gives his female chacters much more believable traits and you don't want to necessarily take the lot of them out and
administer numerous behind kicks.

Okay, maybe you want to kick some of them.  But that's okay.

yer dog

Jamison Wood wrote:

> Wright Frazier wrote:
> > Cook does it better.  I like jordan, but the book where half of the 500
> > pages were of Braid Tugger (nynaeve) and Sniffer (Elayne) were on a damn
> > wagon just disgusted me.  It marked a HUGE down turn in his writing, >he's to concerned with the trivial stuff.
>
> ROFL!
> I agree 100%, Jordan's idea of developing a character is to give them
> one trait, and then have them repeat it thousands of times.
>
> Cook does a much better job of developing characters, look at Goblin and
> One-eye, silent, croaker, lady, soulcatcher, almost every character that
> is vital to the story, Cook gives them personality, and in most
> characters we are given a tidbit or two of their history and what made
> them who they are.  After reading the books I care about Cook's
> characters.
>
> I'm personally rooting for the Forsaken, I would love to read wholesale
> slaughter of the main characters in WOT.
>
> =======================================================================
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>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 17:37:34 -0500
From: "Wright Frazier" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: Taken & Forsaken (no spoilers)

That is a big peeve with me as well about Jordan...there is only one female
character who isn't a walking characature of a given female flaw, and that
is Moiraine.

Wright



- ----- Original Message -----
From: "C.L. Yona" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 5:42 PM
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: Taken & Forsaken (no spoilers)


> Jordan seems to be unable to write a feamle character without some sort of
giant flaw.  Thumb through the characters
> in your mind, and maybe you'll agree with me.  Maybe not.  In either case,
that series became unreadable to me after
> about the 5th book or so (or whichever one he wrote which completely
ignored Perrin for the whole thing).  Cook
> gives his female chacters much more believable traits and you don't want
to necessarily take the lot of them out and
> administer numerous behind kicks.
>
> Okay, maybe you want to kick some of them.  But that's okay.
>
> yer dog
>
> Jamison Wood wrote:
>
> > Wright Frazier wrote:
> > > Cook does it better.  I like jordan, but the book where half of the
500
> > > pages were of Braid Tugger (nynaeve) and Sniffer (Elayne) were on a
damn
> > > wagon just disgusted me.  It marked a HUGE down turn in his writing,
>he's to concerned with the trivial stuff.
> >
> > ROFL!
> > I agree 100%, Jordan's idea of developing a character is to give them
> > one trait, and then have them repeat it thousands of times.
> >
> > Cook does a much better job of developing characters, look at Goblin and
> > One-eye, silent, croaker, lady, soulcatcher, almost every character that
> > is vital to the story, Cook gives them personality, and in most
> > characters we are given a tidbit or two of their history and what made
> > them who they are.  After reading the books I care about Cook's
> > characters.
> >
> > I'm personally rooting for the Forsaken, I would love to read wholesale
> > slaughter of the main characters in WOT.
> >
> > =======================================================================
> >  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> >  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>



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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 19:50:48 -0500
From: Steve Harris <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: Taken & Forsaken (no spoilers)

Wright,

I rather like Egwene.  She develops quite a bit in the later books.

But, yes, not a candle to Lady.

Steve

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 00:46:58 -0600
From: Eric Herrmann <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) The Glen Cook Fan Page v2.0 GM

The Glen Cook Fan Page v2.0 has gone final! Thank you to everyone who sent
me comments and criticism. I tried to use most of it.

You can now find the new site in the place of the old site. So delete all
your links to the new site and start using your old site links again.

And in case you've forgotten it is at,
<http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/>.

For those who are new to the list, there has been a lot of new material
added as part of the Biography, Bibliography, and Links.

And now you have the option to get the glencook-fans mailing list as a
digest. See the site for details.

- --
Eric Herrmann
<[e-mail]>






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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 20:39:07 -0500
From: "Lich" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) The Glen Cook Fan Page v2.0 GM

Getting a not found error.  You might want to check your files.


- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Herrmann" <[e-mail]>
To: "Glen Cook Fans" <[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2000 1:46 AM
Subject: (glencook-fans) The Glen Cook Fan Page v2.0 GM


> The Glen Cook Fan Page v2.0 has gone final! Thank you to everyone who sent
> me comments and criticism. I tried to use most of it.
>
> You can now find the new site in the place of the old site. So delete all
> your links to the new site and start using your old site links again.
>
> And in case you've forgotten it is at,
> <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/>.
>
> For those who are new to the list, there has been a lot of new material
> added as part of the Biography, Bibliography, and Links.
>
> And now you have the option to get the glencook-fans mailing list as a
> digest. See the site for details.
>
> --
> Eric Herrmann
> <[e-mail]>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>



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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 09:16:05 -0600
From: Eric Herrmann <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) The Glen Cook Fan Page v2.0 GM

on 8/12/00 7:39 PM, Lich at [e-mail] wrote:
>> And in case you've forgotten it is at,
>> <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/>.
>
> Getting a not found error.  You might want to check your files.

I can't reproduce this. I'm on vacation using the hotel's net connection so
my experience shouldn't be any different than yours.

Are you sure you're looking at the GC directory and not the GC2 directory?
The GC2 directory doesn't exist anymore and you would get a not found error.

Anyone else having a problem?

Eric Herrmann
<[e-mail]>


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 10:25:09 -0500
From: "Christopher C. Holden" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) The Glen Cook Fan Page v2.0 GM

> >> <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/>.

You just need to drop the ">" at the end of the URL to get it to work.

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 12:56:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Scholl <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) North vs. South        !!  (SL Spoilers)

- --- "OBRIEN,LEE (HP-Boise,ex1)" <[e-mail]>
wrote:
>  I think it might be cool if Cook would release a
> book of short stories based on Croaker's (new and
> improved, Shivetya enhanced) memories of the
> histories of the different worlds.  Ahh... I guess
>I could go on for a while, but ....
>

Excellent suggestion!!

Croaker as Annalist, but with others as protagonists!



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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 08:18:06 -0500
From: "Don" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Silver spike, North vs South SL SPOILERS!!!

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POSSIBLE SPOILERS FOR SL












Silver Spike was on of the high points of the series for me. It is not =
required for the rest of the series but highly recommended for good =
Cook.

North vs. South- The north was easier to digest than the south for a =
number of reasons. As someone said the N was western Sorcery. Most of us =
have a good foundation of understanding in not only the attitudes but =
the politics of the N. S was definitely more Eastern in the populace's =
philosophy. The Polytheism, the view of the Westerners as outsiders who =
are not to be trusted/ let in on the secrets of your culture/religion.=20
I loved the Eastern influence in Dread Empire. I wanted to hear more =
about it. That's the main reason for my frustration at the series being =
discontinued. I feel that the Eastern influence in BC fell short. The =
Taglians are not religious except when the priests were there to enforce =
it. There is no great strength in there religion as a motivator for the =
people. Their gods don't care what happens to them. Kina gets a kick out =
of seeing her worshipers get the dirt nap. The Nyu Buano (SP) could have =
been really good but Cook never went far enough  into their culture. =
They never truly befriended the Company so we could never really root or =
them. The path of the sword could have been as interesting as the =
Trevola from DE but was never developed.=20
The main failing I see in the South is the lack of Characterization of =
the key individuals. I think this can be attributed to many of the =
topics others on the list have mentioned. 1 the switch from unit to =
whole force maneuvers. 2 the amount of plot and detail that was covered =
just didn't leave space to flesh characters out properly (especially in =
SL). 3 I feel that the ending was rushed. Every had to die and get =
wrapped up quickly because the series had gone on so long. The =
characters were just too flat. They died that way as well...flat.

Of course this is all my opinion.=20

Don=20
"In time, what's deserved always gets served."- COC



P.S. Guys, most of us don't care about the Wheel of Time. I will now =
never read any of those books because of the space they have taken on =
this list.


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>POSSIBLE SPOILERS FOR SL</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Silver Spike was on of the high points =
of the=20
series for me. It is not required for the rest of the series but highly=20
recommended for good Cook.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>North vs. South- The north was easier =
to digest=20
than the south for a number of reasons. As someone said the N was =
western=20
Sorcery. Most of us have a good foundation of understanding in not only =
the=20
attitudes but the politics of the N. S was definitely more Eastern in =
the=20
populace's philosophy. The Polytheism, the view of the Westerners as =
outsiders=20
who are not to be trusted/ let in on the secrets of your =
culture/religion.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I loved the Eastern influence in Dread =
Empire. I=20
wanted to hear more about it. That's the main reason for my frustration =
at the=20
series being discontinued. I feel that the Eastern influence in BC fell =
short.=20
The Taglians are not religious except when the priests were there to =
enforce it.=20
There is no great strength in there religion as a motivator for the =
people.=20
Their gods don't care what happens to them. Kina gets a kick out of =
seeing her=20
worshipers get the dirt nap. The Nyu Buano (SP) could have been really =
good but=20
Cook never went far enough  into their culture. They never truly =
befriended=20
the Company so we could never really root or them. The path of the sword =
could=20
have been as interesting as the Trevola from DE but was never developed. =

</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The main failing I see in the South is =
the lack of=20
Characterization of the key individuals. I think this can be attributed =
to many=20
of the topics others on the list have mentioned. 1 the switch from unit =
to whole=20
force maneuvers. 2 the amount of plot and detail that was covered just =
didn't=20
leave space to flesh characters out properly (especially in SL). 3 I =
feel that=20
the ending was rushed. Every had to die and get wrapped up quickly =
because the=20
series had gone on so long. The characters were just too flat. They died =
that=20
way as well...flat.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Of course this is all my opinion. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>Don <BR>"In time, what's deserved =
always gets=20
served."- COC</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>P.S. Guys, most of us don't care about =
the Wheel of=20
Time. I will now never read any of those books because of the space they =
have=20
taken on this list.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_00E7_01BFFD23.59BFFBE0--


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 16:15:52 EDT
From: "Holy Paladin" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) North vs. South !! (SL Spoilers)

While were on the topic The North vs The South. Who do u all think made
better allies Tobo's unseen Folk or the Creatures of the Plain of Fear. To
me its a hard choosing.


Another thought.....
Does it occur to any1 that nobody evn croaker didn't attempt to retreive the
Lance of Passion. Yes i know that would be nearly impossible but i would
think Croaker would at least try.

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 15:13:59 -0500
From: "Jordan Raney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Silver spike, North vs South SL SPOILERS!!!

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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Don wrote:

"I loved the Eastern influence in Dread Empire. I wanted to hear more =
about it. That's the main reason for my frustration at the series being =
discontinued. I feel that the Eastern influence in BC fell short. The =
Taglians are not religious except when the priests were there to enforce =
it. There is no great strength in there religion as a motivator for the =
people. Their gods don't care what happens to them. Kina gets a kick out =
of seeing her worshipers get the dirt nap."

I think the reason the "gods don't care" is because Cook wants to make =
it look like they don't exist and that people are just weak for =
believing in them.  Throughout the Black Company series Croaker (who is =
basically Cook's personal character) repeatedly talks about how anyone =
powerful enough can be thought of as a god hundreds or thousands of =
years later, after the distortion of history.  I think that's why Cook =
nearly all religious characters in his books look like irrational fools. =
 I haven't read Dread Empire yet, so I can't comment on that.

JR

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Don wrote:</FONT></DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"I loved the Eastern influence in =
Dread Empire.=20
I wanted to hear more about it. That's the main reason for my =
frustration at the=20
series being discontinued. I feel that the Eastern influence in BC fell =
short.=20
The Taglians are not religious except when the priests were there to =
enforce it.=20
There is no great strength in there religion as a motivator for the =
people.=20
Their gods don't care what happens to them. Kina gets a kick out of =
seeing her=20
worshipers get the dirt nap."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I think the reason the "gods don't care" is because =
Cook wants=20
to make it look like they don't exist and that people are just weak for=20
believing in them.  Throughout the Black Company series Croaker =
(who is=20
basically Cook's personal character) repeatedly talks about how anyone =
powerful=20
enough can be thought of as a god hundreds or thousands of years later, =
after=20
the distortion of history.  I think that's why Cook nearly all =
religious=20
characters in his books look like irrational fools.  I haven't read =
Dread=20
Empire yet, so I can't comment on that.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>JR</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 23:46:01 GMT
From: "Nick Chase" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Silver Spike -- Is it a Must?

I appear to be in the minority again. Silver Spike is my least favorite
Black Company book. Not because it's badly written (it's not) but because
it's completely unnecessary. It ties up things better left to the
imagination and unties things that were resolved quite well in The White
Rose. The White Rose is my favorite of the Black Company books, and has one
of the most satisfying bittersweet endings ever, so for me the Silver Spike
just spoiled a perfect thing. I'd rather not know what happens to the
Limper, I'd rather not know if Toadkiller Dog ever gets what he's looking
for, I'd rather not know who Darling eventually ends up with, or the
ultimate fate of Raven's family, or any of the other things left in the air.
It's better to be able to wonder about them, to think, "yeah, years from now
there'll be a legend about the evil dog in the woods, and the story will go
on, only with different characters and different names..." Instead,
everything is dug back up and then resettled once and for all and this time
there's no mystery left. Ugh. There's some good writing in the book - Case
is an interesting narrator - but there's a lot of dumb or unnecessary stuff
as well. Raven went from tragically flawed (interesting) to pathetic buffoon
(not interesting), and there were a number of people doing stupid,
out-of-character things (if Old Father Tree could SPOILER, why didn't he do
that in TWR?) Better to leave well enough alone.

As for the Books of the South, I don't like them as much as the first three,
but there is some good stuff in them. Lady as narrator was cool. I know
people thought it was unnecessary and confusing, but I liked the Billy
Pilgrim riff in Bleak Seasons a lot (my only complaint was that the ending
should have been even darker, and I felt a little cheated when it was later
at least partially undone). Blade rocked, would have liked to see a lot more
of him. Seeing a different culture was nice - Shinsan is one of the best
things about the Dread Empire books - but I would have preferred something
more alien, not so recognizably Hindu, Vietnamese, etc. The correlation
between say, Forsberg and Germany or the Jewel Cities and Italy is a lot
less direct. I thought the bad guys were pretty lame - Longshadow in
particular - with the exception of Narayan Singh, Mogaba, and maybe Kina.
And I would have preferred the dead Taken to stay dead: this version of
Soulcatcher wasn't as appealing as the original. The writing was more
sophisticated, but it also felt looser and less focused and the characters
weren't as strong overall (as other people have mentioned).
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End of glencook-fans-digest V1 #11
**********************************

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