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glencook-fans-digest     Wednesday, August 9 2000     Volume 01 : Number 008




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 15:11:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) North vs. South

While I enjoyed the plots of the South books more than the North, I
thought in all the South series was weaker.  Along the same lines of
people who attribute this sentiment to the characters being "flatter" in
the South series, I blame the South books being stretched too thin.  In
any of the first four books of the BC series Cook allows enough page space
for the reader to get to know at least half a dozen or so characters quite
well, and they are mostly interesting.  It seems that in the South the
number of characters he focuses on closely is smaller.  Moreover, these
are often the same interesting characters that we already knew from the
North.  Also, sometimes these characters simply aren't as compelling as
the earlier ones.  I always attributed this to the author trying to cover
more plot ground in the south, both in terms of range of events and in
terms of level of detail of these events.

Still, I've only read the series twice, except for SL (once).


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Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 20:13:49 GMT
From: "Nick Chase" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) SL (no spoilers)

Well, the Taken were up against each other and the Circle of Eighteen, who
were apparently powerful enough to be proto-Taken (ie, up around Bomanz
level). The Shadowmasters faced a lot less opposition: Shapeshifter and
Stormbringer cancelled each other out, Soulcatcher and the Howler mostly
kept their distance. That leaves Goblin and One-Eye.


>From: "Sam Felice" <[e-mail]>
>I have kind of mixed feelings about that.  I mean, they were supposed
>to be the 10 most powerful sorcerers (Dominator and Lady not >withstanding)
>around at the time.  Most of them got killed off >relatively easily durring
>the battle at Charm.  So, they don't seem
>as powerful as they should have been.
>
>And since then the Company has run into other sorcerers who, instead
>of taking over the whole land of the South, were merely content to
>rule over a bunch of small, backwards swamp-dwellers.  So you'd think
>that these sorcerers weren't very powerful.  Yet they seemed to put >up
>more of a fight than the taken.

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 17:09:12 -0400
From: "Anna Taylor" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) North vs. South

I started with the books of the South and read all of them first.  The =
first thing I'll
say...I wish those would be thrown into one book.  There was something =
jarring
about having the book end in the middle of the dominant storyline.  An =
anthology
of the Books of the South would be much better for future readers. =20

The books of the North still hooked you for the next book, but they were a =
little
more forgiving in terms of story resolutions.  The books of the North also =
had=20
the classic story arc.  Average guy gets THE girl, with a little mahem =
and=20
intrigue to make it plausibly uncertain. =20

These are just my take on the discussion, other and better reasoned =
opinions
likely exist. =20

- -Anna



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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 04:08:22 -0500
From: "Lich" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL (no spoilers)

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The Taken are some of the most brilliant villains ever conceived of for =
a fantasy setting.  That, I suspect, is why a lot of them wound up not =
having actually gone down at Charm.  I'm thinking he would probably do =
it differently in retrospect.
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Aaron Contreras=20
  To: '[e-mail]'=20
  Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 9:40 AM
  Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) SL (no spoilers)


  No, I really don't.  But I'd imagine it is doing well, or at least =
better.  GC's popularity is on the rise as more and more authors and =
game designers continue to rob his ideas.=20
  He really is surprisingly obscure for someone who has had his creative =
content ripped off so much.
  =20
  I remember the biggest factor in being really attracted instantly to =
the BC series (aside from his style of writing, and all that) was his =
mixing of really, really high fantasy with really, really low fantasy.  =
It has disappointed me somewhat that magic became steadily more and more =
commonplace and less awe-inspiring for the annalists...though after ten =
books it would be hard to avoid.
  =20
  Anyone else think Cook made a huge initial mistake whacking the =
majority of the Taken in his first book?  I've always felt he didn't =
realize what a potential goldmine he had on his hands there...

  =20
  Aaron
  =20
  =20
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Don [mailto:[e-mail]]
    Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 12:00 AM
    To: [e-mail]
    Subject: (glencook-fans) SL (no spoilers)


    Does anyone know how SL is selling?=20

    Don=20
    "In time, what's deserved always gets served."- COC

    =20

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3018.900" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The Taken are some of the most =
brilliant villains=20
ever conceived of for a fantasy setting.  That, I suspect, is why a =
lot of=20
them wound up not having actually gone down at Charm.  I'm thinking =
he=20
would probably do it differently in retrospect.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>Aaron Contreras</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:'[e-mail]'"=20
  =
title=[e-mail]>'[e-mail]=
m'</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 09, =
2000 9:40=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: (glencook-fans) SL =
(no=20
  spoilers)</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D480054314-09082000>No, =
I really=20
  don't.  But I'd imagine it is doing well, or at least =
better.  GC's=20
  popularity is on the rise as more and more authors and game designers =
continue=20
  to rob his ideas. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D480054314-09082000>He =
really is=20
  surprisingly obscure for someone who has had his creative content =
ripped off=20
  so much.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D480054314-09082000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D480054314-09082000>I =
remember the=20
  biggest factor in being really attracted instantly to the BC series =
(aside=20
  from his style of writing, and all that) was his mixing of really, =
really high=20
  fantasy with really, really low fantasy.  It has disappointed me =
somewhat=20
  that magic became steadily more and more commonplace and less =
awe-inspiring=20
  for the annalists...though after ten books it would be hard to=20
  avoid.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D480054314-09082000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D480054314-09082000>Anyone else think=20
  Cook made a huge initial mistake whacking the majority of the =
Taken in=20
  his first book?  I've always felt he didn't realize what a =
potential=20
  goldmine he had on his hands there...</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D480054314-09082000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D480054314-09082000>Aaron</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D480054314-09082000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D480054314-09082000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
    size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Don=20
    [mailto:[e-mail]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, July 31, 2000 =
12:00=20
    AM<BR><B>To:</B> [e-mail]<BR><B>Subject:</B> =

    (glencook-fans) SL (no spoilers)<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Does anyone know how SL is selling? =

    </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>Don <BR>"In time, what's =
deserved always=20
    gets served."- COC</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C00280.A0093000--


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 04:25:22 -0500
From: "Lich" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) The Taken, The Circle and Bomanz

The Taken
Somebody was wondering whether ANY of the Taken went down permanently at
Charm.  In Water Sleeps it mentions that "several" of the Taken were present
when Longshadow first opened and bound his true name to the Shadowgate.
During that incident, some of the sorcerers present were destroyed.  It
doesn't specify how many though.

Personally, I think the only Taken that got smoked at Charm were The Hanged
Man, and Bonegnasher.  We Know Stormbringer, Limper, Soulcatcher, Howler and
Shapeshifter survived.  Counting the Hanged Man, this makes six that we KNOW
the fate of.  I'm guessing on Bonegnasher just because he seemed too simple
straightforward to be involved in all kinds of duplicitous plots.  From the
Lady's perspective, I'm thinking he was the "best" of the Taken.  That
leaves Nameless, Nightcrawler and Moonbiter unnaccounted for.  I'm thinking
they were the sorcerers destroyed at the Shadowgate incident.

The Circle and Bomanz
While I would agree that the Circle were up to the level of proto-taken,
there's a big difference between proto and full fledged.  If you recall,
during the nights at Charm, all 18 of the circle were continually on the
defensive (and not mounting a very good one either) because the "Taken were
too damn strong."  I would say that between the 18, they had the capability
of two maybe three of the Taken, if that.

Bomanz on the other hand, is another story.  His actions in The White Rose
and The Silver Spike lead me to believe that he was the equal of any of the
Taken, except for possibly Soulcatcher and Limper.  We're talking about a
guy who intended to get 1st hand teaching from the Lady, not through
bargaining, but by COMPELLING her to teach him.  He came damn near pulling
it off.  I'd definitely rate him as a top-knotch sorcerer.




- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Chase" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 3:13 PM
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) SL (no spoilers)


> Well, the Taken were up against each other and the Circle of Eighteen, who
> were apparently powerful enough to be proto-Taken (ie, up around Bomanz
> level). The Shadowmasters faced a lot less opposition: Shapeshifter and
> Stormbringer cancelled each other out, Soulcatcher and the Howler mostly
> kept their distance. That leaves Goblin and One-Eye.
>
>
> >From: "Sam Felice" <[e-mail]>
> >I have kind of mixed feelings about that.  I mean, they were supposed
> >to be the 10 most powerful sorcerers (Dominator and Lady not
>withstanding)
> >around at the time.  Most of them got killed off >relatively easily
durring
> >the battle at Charm.  So, they don't seem
> >as powerful as they should have been.
> >
> >And since then the Company has run into other sorcerers who, instead
> >of taking over the whole land of the South, were merely content to
> >rule over a bunch of small, backwards swamp-dwellers.  So you'd think
> >that these sorcerers weren't very powerful.  Yet they seemed to put >up
> >more of a fight than the taken.
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
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>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 16:34:10 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jake Kesinger <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) The Taken, The Circle and Bomanz

On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, Lich wrote:

> Bomanz on the other hand, is another story.  His actions in The White Rose
> and The Silver Spike lead me to believe that he was the equal of any of the
> Taken, except for possibly Soulcatcher and Limper.  We're talking about a
> guy who intended to get 1st hand teaching from the Lady, not through
> bargaining, but by COMPELLING her to teach him.  He came damn near pulling
> it off.  I'd definitely rate him as a top-knotch sorcerer.

Except that Bomanz had a lever long enough to move the world (her True
Name) and a place to stand.

The impression I got from _The_Silver_Spike_ was that Bomanz was, while a
pretty good wizard, seriously outclassed by what he was up against.

 ==Jake



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Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 16:52:17 -0500
From: "Warner, Jon" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) North vs. South

I was thinking along the same lines.  There is a very "alien" feel to the
books of the South, which I think was intentional. I think it's good world
building on Cook's part to have such cultural diversity. The further you go
from your point of origin, the more awkward you feel.  For the readers who
began the journey with Croaker in _The Black Company_ the North is our
'point of origin'.  While the south was interesting, I never felt the
attachment I did to the earlier books.  Perhaps this was fostered by the
supposition that the South lands were just a place to pass through on the
way to Khatovar.  Unfortunately, for me anyway, the South became the end
rather than the means.


- -----Original Message-----
From: Jordan Raney [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 1:56 PM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) North vs. South


Maybe many of you have read the books of the north more often, but I know
that I have actually read all black company books 3 times...all but Water
Sleeps and Soldiers Live because they're so recent.  But still, the books of
the North are a lot more interesting for me..I don't even know why.  Part of
it is the culture that the company is immersed in I think.  The North is
more traditional "western european fantasy" while the south is almost
"middle-eastern" if that makes any sense.  I am just more familiar (and more
interested in) the traditional western european type.  Also, I think the
characters in the books of the North were a lot less "flat" then those of
the south.  Just some thoughts.

JR


> Perhaps because so many of us have read and re-read the first three so
mcuh
> vs the later books (only having been out a *mere* 1-4 years?)
>
> just a thought...
>
> TT
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [e-mail]
> > [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Eric
> > Herrmann
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 1:47 PM
> > To: Glen Cook Fans
> > Subject: (glencook-fans) North vs. South
> >
> >
> > I have a hard time believing that people actually like the Books of the
> > South and Glittering Stone.
> >
> > Why? Because the discussion of this list is dominated by what was
> > written in
> > 955 pages 15 years ago and not the 2400 pages that were written
> > since. There
> > aren't discussions about ShadowMasters, Gunni, Shaddar,
> > Deceivers, Taglios,
> > Shivetya, Kina, etc. You may get one or two replies if you are lucky.
> >
> > But bring up the name of a Taken, Goblin, One-eye, the Dominator,
> > or Charm,
> > etc. you can get an extended discussion for a week with the quotes and
> > research that would impress any doctoral review board. But only from the
> > Books of the North.
> >
> > And even most of the Soldiers Live discussion seems to take place in the
> > context of the Books of the North than within the rest of
> > Glittering Stone.
> >
> > Why is that? Am I wrong? What is the difference?
> >
> > Eric Herrmann
> > <[e-mail]>
> >
> >
> > =======================================================================
> >  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> >  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
>
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 17:26:24 -0500
From: "David George" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) North vs. South

I agree with Eric and disagree with him.  (Sure, why not?)  I agree because
his point that people seem to like the books of the North better is well
taken.  Except that I like Glittering Stone best of the bunch.  But I've
been one of the loonies who post about the South books and Eric is right,
very little discussion results.  May be my posts as well . . .

I disagree with him because I definitely do like the Books of the South.
For very different reasons than why I like the Books of the North.  The
North books hang together much better.  They are a nice, tight, trilogy.
The books of the South introduce three different annalists, three different
voices.  And I liked that alot.  I especially liked re-reading Dreams of
Steel and immediately afterwards reading Bleak Seasons because you get two
voices and two biases discussing largely the same events.  In a strange way,
Bleak Seasons fleshes out Lady's character by comparing what Murgen says and
what she says.  She comes off as pretty self-serving, moreso if you
sympathize with Murgen.

I agree that they don't hang together like the North does as a tight
trilogy, but Glittering Stone, for me, was some of the best fantasy writing
I've yet seen.

De gustibus non est disputandem, though.  I've seen comments to the effect
that some readers would just as soon Sleepy or Sahra have never been
introduced as characters.  And, to add to my vices, I like the Garrett
books, more after having re-read them.  I even liked Swordbearer.  Read it
twice.  So get a salt lick to go with my comments.  Which end here.

DG


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 15:48:35 -0700
From: Aaron Contreras <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) North vs. South

One instance really sums up the differences between the two series:

Remember when Croaker & the Company work with 'Shifter to take out the
Limper?
What an increidble scene.  All the tension was amazing.

Now, check out any of the heavy magic/ambush/whack a bad guy raids in the
later books.  It's old hat.  Murgen and Croaker have seen it all, just
about.

Cook, to his credit, doesn't up the ante of sorcerous threat and fantasy -
I'd actually say he lowers it considerably after the Silver Spike.  Yes,
fantasic elements become a lot more common, but also a lot less potent.

Mixed feelings on the whole subject.  He really could've stretched out the,
"Holy &%%%$!  What have we gotten ourselves into!?" feel of the first book
for a good trilogy.  Not that I'm complaining how things have gone.  I
really like the later books.  The ones I couldn't stand were the Silver
Spike (loathed it) or maybe the first book or two of the South.

Always been my impression that as confusing and weird the whole Murgen in
Degajore thing was, it really infused the entire series with a badly needed
jolt of new blood.

Ack, this wanders.  What happens when you're nearly off work, I guess.

Aaron


- -----Original Message-----
From: David George [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 3:26 PM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) North vs. South


I agree with Eric and disagree with him.  (Sure, why not?)  I agree because
his point that people seem to like the books of the North better is well
taken.  Except that I like Glittering Stone best of the bunch.  But I've
been one of the loonies who post about the South books and Eric is right,
very little discussion results.  May be my posts as well . . .

I disagree with him because I definitely do like the Books of the South.
For very different reasons than why I like the Books of the North.  The
North books hang together much better.  They are a nice, tight, trilogy.
The books of the South introduce three different annalists, three different
voices.  And I liked that alot.  I especially liked re-reading Dreams of
Steel and immediately afterwards reading Bleak Seasons because you get two
voices and two biases discussing largely the same events.  In a strange way,
Bleak Seasons fleshes out Lady's character by comparing what Murgen says and
what she says.  She comes off as pretty self-serving, moreso if you
sympathize with Murgen.

I agree that they don't hang together like the North does as a tight
trilogy, but Glittering Stone, for me, was some of the best fantasy writing
I've yet seen.

De gustibus non est disputandem, though.  I've seen comments to the effect
that some readers would just as soon Sleepy or Sahra have never been
introduced as characters.  And, to add to my vices, I like the Garrett
books, more after having re-read them.  I even liked Swordbearer.  Read it
twice.  So get a salt lick to go with my comments.  Which end here.

DG


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 19:50:11 -0400
From: "C.L. Yona" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) North vs. South

I have to chip my couple of pennies in and say that I don't see any discernible
reduction of quality between the books of the North and the South.  In fact, I
think Cook pulls off a pretty neat trick by moving from one "battle for control
of the world" situation to another. He also reduced the Company down to what -
6 members?  Gutsy.  Perhaps the Northerners (heh) like the earlier books better
because they stayed with the characters that you knew from the beginning - The
Captain, Silent, Raven, etc.  Down in the South the books are a little more
daring, a little more inventive - Annalists change, bringing new perspectives;
the enemies are more numerous and not always as obvious;  entirely new
cultures, wildly different from one another, are introduced.    As for Water
Sleeps, I thought it was fantastic - how much nerve does it take for a writer
to remove one of the series' most central characters for almost the entire
book?  I give Cook credit.  He's not satisfied with just writing a tale, he's
going to keep you off-guard.  Better than recycling tired storyline and warmed
over crap like too many of today's fantasy writers do.

yer dog, shooting off his mouth

"Warner, Jon" wrote:

> I was thinking along the same lines.  There is a very "alien" feel to the
> books of the South, which I think was intentional. I think it's good world
> building on Cook's part to have such cultural diversity. The further you go
> from your point of origin, the more awkward you feel.  For the readers who
> began the journey with Croaker in _The Black Company_ the North is our
> 'point of origin'.  While the south was interesting, I never felt the
> attachment I did to the earlier books.  Perhaps this was fostered by the
> supposition that the South lands were just a place to pass through on the
> way to Khatovar.  Unfortunately, for me anyway, the South became the end
> rather than the means.




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Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 19:46:07 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL (no spoilers)

In a message dated 8/9/00 12:35:56 PM, [e-mail] writes:

>Also, I think that in the first series, Cook does a great job of describing
>"life in the trenches." How many privates in Desert Storm *really* knew
>what Schwarzkopf was like? To them, he was probably the sterotypical general.

Yeah, fat, lazy, and I bet that ruksac had a pillow in it. Man probably didn't
walk anywhere and only drove if he needed Twinkies.

Actually, having been in at the time, I can say on the troop level troops
were damn happy that he was leading, since when he felt screwed he
made sure the world knew it.

This is one of the things that I liked about the BC books, they way they
elected their officers. No chance of getting someone in they that people
would have rather seen dead.

christopher....

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Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 19:46:11 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: (glencook-fans) The Taken (was SL (no spoilers))

In a message dated 8/9/00 9:49:05 AM, [e-mail] writes:

>Anyone else think Cook made a huge initial mistake whacking the majority
>of the Taken in his first book?  I've always felt he didn't realize what a
potential goldmine he had on his hands there...

I think he knows. Even dead the Taken got a lot of text time. Hell, the
Dominator might as well still be alive. The Company remembers (and
that's an immortality of sorts).

The Ten Who Were Taken, to me, IMHO, are much like the Twelve Dead
Captains of The Swordbearer. The Dead Caps were pretty much early
versions of the Taken, or Takenlite. Anyway, my point is that Cook
already had experience with this type of character.

If we'd had Ten Taken running througout the books it wouldn't be
a story about the company so much as the intrigue of the Ten.
I also doubt that were many of them still alive that they would hold
the same appeal as they do dead.

Dead Moonbiter has a cool name, same as the Hangedman. Alive
they start to get boring. They Howler lived long enough to become
a joke. Me, I'm glad Stormbringer and the others went out while
they were still cool. Pretty much wished it had happen to Catcher
sometime in there. Love the character to death, hated the fact
that she was turned into an incompetent mayor or a boring city.

christopher....

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Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 19:46:09 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) The Taken, The Circle and Bomanz

In a message dated 8/9/00 4:35:20 PM, [e-mail] writes:

>On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, Lich wrote:
>
>> Bomanz on the other hand, is another story.  His actions in The White
>> Rose and The Silver Spike lead me to believe that he was the equal of any
>> of the Taken, except for possibly Soulcatcher and Limper.  We're talking
about
>> a guy who intended to get 1st hand teaching from the Lady, not through
>> bargaining, but by COMPELLING her to teach him.  He came damn near pulling
>> it off.  I'd definitely rate him as a top-knotch sorcerer.
>
>Except that Bomanz had a lever long enough to move the world (her True
>Name) and a place to stand.
>
>The impression I got from _The_Silver_Spike_ was that Bomanz was, while
>a pretty good wizard, seriously outclassed by what he was up against.

It was my impression that Lady was manipulating his self confidence to
make him believe he was up to a task that was always beyond him. If forced
to bet, I throw my money the way of the weakest Taken to kick his ass.
At best he was the equal to one of the Lesser Taken. He was a portly old
man too attached to his family. He lacked the drive that any of the Taken
had. He never showed any real power other than an ability to survive.

christopher....


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Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 20:07:51 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) The Taken, The Circle and Bomanz

In a message dated 8/9/00 4:30:11 PM, [e-mail] writes:

>Somebody was wondering whether ANY of the Taken went down permanently at
>Charm.  In Water Sleeps it mentions that "several" of the Taken were present
>when Longshadow first opened and bound his true name to the Shadowgate.
>During that incident, some of the sorcerers present were destroyed.  It
>doesn't specify how many though.

Do you have a cite for this? I don't remember it at all, but that's not
surprising.
Cook tends to put stuff like this in throw-away lines. I was pretty sure at
least
two of the Taken were confirmed dead at Charm, having taken each other out,
and doesn't Croaker witness one Taken die (while a couple others look on and
decide not to help)?

christopher....

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Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 20:53:13 -0400
From: Joshua G Peery <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) The Taken, The Circle and Bomanz

It was my impression that Lady was manipulating his self confidence to
>make him believe he was up to a task that was always beyond him. If forced
>to bet, I throw my money the way of the weakest Taken to kick his ass.
>At best he was the equal to one of the Lesser Taken. He was a portly old
>man too attached to his family. He lacked the drive that any of the Taken
>had. He never showed any real power other than an ability to survive.
>


Didnt Bomanz kill his only son?  And didnt he "off" one of the twins at Oar
without a hitch?
Bomanz was afraid that his power would be sought by the Lady and she would
turn him into a Taken..
Even his son said his old collegues wondered what had happened to him
'cause he was the best of them..

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Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 18:04:28 -0700
From: "Brooke A. Wheeler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Taken (was SL (no spoilers))

Sam Felice wrote:

<<I have kind of mixed feelings about that.  I mean, they were supposed to be
the 10 most powerful sorcerers (Dominator and Lady not withstanding) around at
the time.  Most of them got killed off relatively easily during the battle at
Charm.  So, they don't seem as powerful as they should have been.>>

Granted that they were the 10 most powerful OF THEIR TIME, but you have to
remember that they've been in the ground for hundreds of years, so there's been
plenty of chances for other powerful wizards to arise in the mean time. I got
the idea that several of the Circle wizards were no slouches themselves. For
example: look how many of the Taken had to gang up on Harden to take him out...
and even then, he managed to take the Hanged Man with him when he died.  Also
there were a number of indications that Whisper was in the same league as the
rest of the Taken, and I got the idea that Feather and Journey were pretty tough
customers as well.
Another point to consider is that just because a wizard is powerful doesn't
necessarily make him or her resourceful--or devious for that matter. A wizard
who lacked subtlety (take Limper for example) can be outwitted even though he
outclasses his opponent in magical ability. The ones who survived the longest
(Soulcatcher, Shapeshifter and the Howler) were the most devious. The ones that
got scragged took unnecessary risks, allowed their pride to  cloud their better
judgment (Limper), or trusted the wrong people (Shapeshifter).

<<And since then the Company has run into other sorcerers who, instead of taking
over the whole land of the South, were merely content to rule over a bunch of
small, backwards swamp-dwellers.  So you'd think that these sorcerers weren't
very powerful.  Yet they seemed to put up more of a fight than the taken.>>

You're referring to Howler. He stopped trying to "take over the world" so to
speak because he was tired of being stomped on... it says as much in _She is the
Darkness_ Perfectly understandable, after what happened at the Shadowgate
initially, he didn't think joining up with the Shadowmasters was worth the risk.
In contrast, the Limper had his mind set on the Silver Spike, but instead of
gathering his strength slowly and waiting for the furor to settle down before
making his move, he went charging in with no regard for what he was getting
himself into. It ended up costing him his life, too.

<<I guess my point is that while the Shadowmasters seemed like they should have
been less powerful than the Taken, they were more trouble.  And though the Taken
should have been more powerful, they seemed to fall rather easily.>>

Why? When the Black company went up against the Taken in the North, they had the
White Rose and all the creatures of the plain to back them up. That was a lot
more "firepower" than they had at their disposal after they went south. When
they faced the Shadowmasters, all they had were Goblin, One-Eye and Lady, and
Lady still hadn't been able to siphon off much power from Kina at that point.
And they weren't just facing the Shadowmasters: Soulcatcher kept interfering,
and they didn't have Shapeshifter either because after they took Dejagore, they
did him and Stormbringer in. So basically, they were going up against three 1st
rate wizards (two Shadowmasters and Soulcatcher) with only Goblin, One-Eye and
Lady to back them up. WHy shouldn't it have been more difficult?

<<My take on this, though, is that most of the Taken died due to infighting
between the Taken.  And since they're all sorcerers of the highest caliber, it
kind of evens the playing field and allows them to kill each other off more
easily.>> [....]

I agree 100%.

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Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 18:17:39 -0700
From: "Brooke A. Wheeler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) North vs. South

Eric Herrmann wrote:

<<I have a hard time believing that people actually like the Books of the South
and Glittering Stone.>>

Why? I enjoyed them every bit as much as the first three (well, except for that
cliffhanger ending in _She is the Darkness_...) And my favorite book of the
whole series is _Silver Spike_. They have a different tone and focus, I'll grant
you that, but I enjoy the change of pace.

<<Why? Because the discussion of this list is dominated by what was written in
955 pages 15 years ago and not the 2400 pages that were written since. There
aren't discussions about ShadowMasters, Gunni, Shadar, Deceivers, Taglios,
Shivetya, Kina, etc. You may get one or two replies if you are lucky.>>

I seem to recall a recent thread where we discussed the significance of naming
and why they didn't name Soulcatcher when they had the chance in _She is the
Darkness_, also a discussion of how Lady could start using magic again after
being named... there have been others.
As for the Deceivers, I think he did a pretty good job on those guys. They're
really scary... gave my sister nightmares when she read the books!

[....]

<<And even most of the Soldiers Live discussion seems to take place in the
context of the Books of the North than within the rest of Glittering Stone.>>

Give it some time. The book just came out and any of us haven't even had a
chance to read it yet. It'll take some time for us to absorb it even after we've
read it. I know there were several things in the series that I didn't pick up on
'til my second read through it. After that,  I had a few more questions to
ponder.

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End of glencook-fans-digest V1 #8
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