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From: "APZK" <korobka@beep.ru> Subject: (glencook-fans) Dreams of steel & Bleak seasons Date: 05 Jan 2002 18:57:19 +0300 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C1961A.CD136140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I haven't read english versions of "Dreams of steel" and "Bleak = seasons". But in russian translations of them I've found some difference = between Lady's point of view and Murgen's point of view - when Croaker = meet again Company and Murgen returned banner - in Lady's = interpretation, Croaker looked merry and benevolent; in Murgen's = interpretation, Croaker rude and angry. Is it a true difference, or it = is a difference of two different translators? ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C1961A.CD136140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dkoi8-r" http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Cyr" size=3D2>I haven't read english versions = of "Dreams of=20 steel" and "Bleak seasons". But in russian translations of them I've = found some=20 difference between Lady's point of view and Murgen's point of view = - when=20 Croaker meet again Company and Murgen returned banner - in Lady's=20 interpretation, Croaker looked merry and benevolent; in Murgen's = interpretation,=20 Croaker rude and angry. Is it a true difference, or it is a difference = of two=20 different translators?</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C1961A.CD136140-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott havner <templar8777@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Dreams of steel & Bleak seasons Date: 05 Jan 2002 08:39:43 -0800 (PST) --- APZK <korobka@beep.ru> wrote: > I haven't read english versions of "Dreams of steel" > and "Bleak seasons". But in russian translations of > them I've found some difference between Lady's point > of view and Murgen's point of view - when Croaker > meet again Company and Murgen returned banner - in > Lady's interpretation, Croaker looked merry and > benevolent; in Murgen's interpretation, Croaker rude > and angry. Is it a true difference, or it is a > difference of two different translators? > This is an example of why the Black Company novels are so popular. Ask any two soldiers who were in the same battle what happened and you're guaranteed to get very different accounts, even if the two soldiers were side by side. Also one has to take into account that Lady is in love with Croaker very likely a girlish "puppy" love as he is her first, she is going to have happier thoughts of him. Also they are sexually involved, I know I'm a lot more cheerful around my wife than the soldiers I work with(yes I'm military). Also Murgen is a senior enlisted man, Croaker is the top officer, from Murgen's point of view(as with any enlisted man talking about his senior officers) Croaker is the "Old Man" and this will come through in his descriptions of him. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Aphion S Moore <aphion@juno.com> Subject: (glencook-fans) From the Files of Garrett P.I. Date: 27 Oct 2002 19:46:06 -0500 I am interested in the Garrett series (read and reread all of the series repeatedly). Has anyone heard if there are plans for a new book addition for this series in the future? ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Chilton <rchilton@auracom.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Dreams of steel & Bleak seasons SPOILERS Date: 05 Jan 2002 13:41:52 -0400 Note - the original post didn't have spoilers - the reply does. > APZK wrote: > > I haven't read english versions of "Dreams of steel" and "Bleak > seasons". But in russian translations of them I've found some > difference between Lady's point of view and Murgen's point of view - > when Croaker meet again Company and Murgen returned banner - in Lady's > interpretation, Croaker looked merry and benevolent; in Murgen's > interpretation, Croaker rude and angry. Is it a true difference, or it > is a difference of two different translators? I believe the difference is real - and that Lady writes what she wants history to remember. There's one scene where Lady says (this is paraphased - I don't have the books handy for an exact quote) 'then those guys volunteered to go back to the besieged city' where Murgen's point of view was 'then Lady put a spell on those guys and made them go back to that hellhole of a besieged city'. Lady sees Croaker one way - to her he has never been her superior and she has spent centuries around some very nasty dark guys - and to her Croaker looks like a nice guy. Plus, she's his lover so she sees a very private side of him. Murgen is under Croaker's command, and Croaker plays his cards close to his chest. Croaker gives orders and sometimes the plan comes together and the order makes sense but othertimes the plan falls through and Croaker doesn't bother explaining what he was trying to do. Murgen is a brother of the Black Company, but Croaker knows how brothers dies and tries not to get too close to him (hence the name of the last book). Remember the scene in the first book just before they went to Rose to get Raker? Members of the company were returning from a mission and everyone had to play the 'I don't really care' game as they wondered which friends might be hurt or dead. Croaker (as the doctor and writer) didn't have to play as much - as doctor he was expected to ask about the wounded and as writer he was expect to record how every man fell - but even though he could ask he couldn't really show he cared. I don't think open emotions could play a role in the Black Company. One of the few times any of them show emotions is during the first book when Croaker's oldest friend was surprised to see Croaker being visibly upset about the dead babies they found in Darling's village. To Lady Croaker is an interesting little person and later a lover. To Murgen Croaker is a commanding officer who knows he might have to send Murgen off on a mission to die. Same person - two very different sides. Richard ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lawrence Jenab" <ljenab@sunflower.com> Subject: (glencook-fans) Off topic Date: 05 Jan 2002 18:37:07 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C19617.FA6AC500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anybody remember a book about vampires ruling London? Somebody on = the list (or maybe it was the Zelazny ng) recommended it a while back, = and I wanted to read it, but my computer crashed and I lost the file I = made to remind myself. Sorry for the offtopic post! Thanks, Larry ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C19617.FA6AC500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2712.300" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Does anybody remember a book about = vampires ruling=20 London? Somebody on the list (or maybe it was the Zelazny ng) = recommended=20 it a while back, and I wanted to read it, but my computer crashed and I = lost the=20 file I made to remind myself. Sorry for the offtopic = post!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Larry</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C19617.FA6AC500-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Chilton <rchilton@auracom.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Off topic Date: 06 Jan 2002 00:07:55 -0400 > Lawrence Jenab wrote: > > Does anybody remember a book about vampires ruling London? Somebody > on the list (or maybe it was the Zelazny ng) recommended it a while > back, and I wanted to read it, but my computer crashed and I lost the > file I made to remind myself. Sorry for the offtopic post! > Anno Dracula? I think that's the title - the setting has Dracula marries Queen Vic after Albert dies. Most of the folks from the novel Dracula are in it as well as some from the Holmes stories and a few other victorian stories. If memory serves the main plot centered around Jack Steward hunting for a Jack the Ripper type that kills vampires. Richard ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Craig Dutton <craigld@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Off topic Date: 05 Jan 2002 21:08:05 -0800 (PST) --- Richard Chilton <rchilton@auracom.com> wrote: > > Lawrence Jenab wrote: > > > > Does anybody remember a book about vampires ruling London? Somebody > > on the list (or maybe it was the Zelazny ng) recommended it a while > > back, and I wanted to read it, but my computer crashed and I lost the > > file I made to remind myself. Sorry for the offtopic post! > > > > Anno Dracula? I think that's the title - the setting has Dracula > marries Queen Vic after Albert dies. Most of the folks from the novel > Dracula are in it as well as some from the Holmes stories and a few > other victorian stories. > If memory serves the main plot centered around Jack Steward hunting for > a Jack the Ripper type that kills vampires. Anno Dracula, by Kim Newman, is likely that book. (Newman also wrote some Warhammer fantasy novels as Jack Yeovil). It's a stand-alone book with two sequels (Bloody Red Baron is book 2; I'm uncertain about book 3's titleJudgement of tears is book 3). Craig. > > Richard > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mokie <kristen@paper-tigers.org> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) From the Files of Garrett P.I. Date: 06 Jan 2002 16:13:12 -0600 Aphion S Moore wrote: > > I am interested in the Garrett series (read and reread all of the series > repeatedly). Has anyone heard if there are plans for a new book addition > for this series in the future? "Angry Lead Skies" has been mentioned on the list here as the next book, with one more on the way. From October's archives: "Besides the Garrett book coming out spring of 2002 ("Angry Lead Skies"), he expects one more--the last." (Steve Harris) I'm a bit disappointed myself, Garrett being my first introduction to Cook's writing and a favorite still. Still, best to know when to go, I suppose. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lawrence Jenab" <ljenab@sunflower.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Off topic Date: 07 Jan 2002 09:57:54 -0600 Thanks! That's the one. Larry ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 10:07 PM > > Lawrence Jenab wrote: > > > > Does anybody remember a book about vampires ruling London? Somebody > > on the list (or maybe it was the Zelazny ng) recommended it a while > > back, and I wanted to read it, but my computer crashed and I lost the > > file I made to remind myself. Sorry for the offtopic post! > > > > Anno Dracula? I think that's the title - the setting has Dracula > marries Queen Vic after Albert dies. Most of the folks from the novel > Dracula are in it as well as some from the Holmes stories and a few > other victorian stories. > If memory serves the main plot centered around Jack Steward hunting for > a Jack the Ripper type that kills vampires. > > Richard > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Chilton <rchilton@auracom.com> Subject: (glencook-fans) Off topic - different author Date: 07 Jan 2002 14:29:52 -0400 Just finished reading a book then noticed who the blurbs on the covers were from. On the back cover was Chris Bunch saying: "Exciting, well-plotter, complex, an excellent read and amazingly good first novel." The front cover had the quote: An exciting debut novel... Wish I'd thought of this myself. Try it. You'll like it." - Glen Cook, author of _Faded Steel Heat_ (Note - that was the title of the book they used; if memory serves it's _Faded Steel Hearts_ but that's not what's there.) Normally I don't ecommend books here - but I have to agree with what Glen Cook said - I would have loved to Cook write the book and it is a good read. The book? _Storm Front: Book one of the Dresden Files_ by Jim Butcher. It's a bit like one of the Garrent files books - set in a version of our world where magic exists. The blurb on the back: Harry Dresden is best at what he does. Well, technically, he's the only at what he does. So when the Chicago PD has a case that transcends mortal creativity and capability, they come to him for answers. For the "everyday" world is full of strange and magical things - and most of them don't play well with humans. That's where Harry comes in. Takes a wizard to catch a - well, whatever. There's just one problem. Business, to put it mildly, stinks. So when the police bring him in to consult on a grisly double murder committed with black magic, Harry's seeing dollar signs. But where there's black magic, there's a black mage behind it. And now that mage knows Harry's name. And that's when things start to get -- interesting. Apperently there are two other books in the series - but I haven't read them yet so can't comment. All I can do is echo "Try it. You'll like it." about the first one. Richard ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Timothy P. Taylor" <tptaylor@genuity.com> Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Off topic - different author Date: 07 Jan 2002 13:41:47 -0500 I have to recommend both books myself, having read one and Two Didn't know that there was a third. *SPOILER ALERT* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * I really like the way this author handled creation of Potions, as well as his literary descriptions of what happens when youmix potions. Highly HIGHLY entertaining. Regards TT > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Richard > Chilton > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 1:30 PM > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > Subject: (glencook-fans) Off topic - different author > > > Just finished reading a book then noticed who the blurbs on the covers > were from. On the back cover was Chris Bunch saying: "Exciting, > well-plotter, complex, an excellent read and amazingly good first > novel." > > The front cover had the quote: > An exciting debut novel... Wish I'd thought of this myself. Try it. > You'll like it." - Glen Cook, author of _Faded Steel Heat_ > (Note - that was the title of the book they used; if memory serves it's > _Faded Steel Hearts_ but that's not what's there.) > > Normally I don't ecommend books here - but I have to agree with what > Glen Cook said - I would have loved to Cook write the book and it is a > good read. > The book? _Storm Front: Book one of the Dresden Files_ by Jim Butcher. > It's a bit like one of the Garrent files books - set in a version of our > world where magic exists. > The blurb on the back: > Harry Dresden is best at what he does. Well, technically, he's the only > at what he does. So when the Chicago PD has a case that transcends > mortal creativity and capability, they come to him for answers. For the > "everyday" world is full of strange and magical things - and most of > them don't play well with humans. That's where Harry comes in. Takes a > wizard to catch a - well, whatever. > There's just one problem. Business, to put it mildly, stinks. So when > the police bring him in to consult on a grisly double murder committed > with black magic, Harry's seeing dollar signs. But where there's black > magic, there's a black mage behind it. And now that mage knows Harry's > name. And that's when things start to get -- interesting. > > Apperently there are two other books in the series - but I haven't read > them yet so can't comment. All I can do is echo "Try it. You'll like > it." about the first one. > > Richard > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Chilton <rchilton@auracom.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Off topic - different author Date: 07 Jan 2002 15:01:48 -0400 "Timothy P. Taylor" wrote: > > I have to recommend both books myself, having read one and Two Didn't know > that there was a third. > Found mention of it on a fan page - which also referred to an unpublished 4th volumne. Since the first one came out in 2000 I'd say they probably average one per year - making number three a recent publication. > *SPOILER ALERT* > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > I really like the way this author handled creation of Potions, as well as > his literary descriptions of what happens when youmix potions. Highly > HIGHLY entertaining. > I like the potion theory - it's not what you use but what is symbolized but you use and your desire for the potion to work. Two people use radically different ingredients and acheive the same effect. Also enjoyed how modern technology ceases to work around magic. Richard ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "APZK" <korobka@beep.ru> Subject: (glencook-fans) Re: Dreams of steel & Bleak seasons Date: 08 Jan 2002 20:20:24 +0300 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C19881.E7B22720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some time before in there was theme about casting for BC movie. Hm.... What's about soundtrack for Cook's books? ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C19881.E7B22720 Content-Type: text/html; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dkoi8-r" http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Cyr" size=3D2>Some time before in there was = theme about=20 casting for BC movie.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Cyr" size=3D2>Hm.... What's about soundtrack = for Cook's=20 books?</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C19881.E7B22720-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Harris <harrissg@slu.edu> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Off topic Date: 08 Jan 2002 12:31:59 -0600 Larry, There's a book by Barbara Hambly that might be what you're thinking of (sorry, I can't recall the title). It's set in turn-of-the-century London and follows the travails of a Sherlock-Holmes-type man who becomes involved in a vampire underground in London (much to his surprise, as these are considered silly superstitions by the general populace). Steve ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Chilton <rchilton@auracom.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Off topic Date: 08 Jan 2002 14:47:04 -0400 Steve Harris wrote: > > Larry, > > There's a book by Barbara Hambly that might be what you're thinking of > (sorry, I can't recall the title). It's set in turn-of-the-century > London and follows the travails of a Sherlock-Holmes-type man who > becomes involved in a vampire underground in London (much to his > surprise, as these are considered silly superstitions by the general populace). > _Those Who Hunt the Night _ and its sequal _Travelling with the Dead_ are good books - but they don't have Vampires ruling London. In London (and other large cities) but not ruling them. That said, _Those Who Hunt the Night_ the night is a good book. Basic plot: a retired British secret agent in Victorian England is recruited to find who is killing the vampires of London. If he finds the killer the agent will likely be killed to cover up the existance of vampires, but if he doesn't both he and his young wife will definitely die. The sequel involves some of the surviving characters and a trip to Istanbul. Both are good reads. Richard ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Nicholas J Thalasinos" <thalpres@bellatlantic.net> Subject: (glencook-fans) Black Company Date: 08 Jan 2002 17:28:49 -0500 Does anyone know if Glen Cook plans any other books in the Black Company series? Nicholas ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Harris <harrissg@slu.edu> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Black Company Date: 08 Jan 2002 17:15:29 -0600 Nicholas, Glen plans one more book in the Black Company, according to the last time I saw him (October, at Archon), but he has many committments before then, including a fantasy trilogy (of the "Song of Ice and Fire" mode). Steve ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dr. Elmo" <dr.elmo@whiterose.org> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Black Company Date: 09 Jan 2002 09:02:58 -0600 Steve Harris wondered aloud to the group: >Glen plans one more book in the Black Company, according to the last >time I saw him (October, at Archon), but he has many committments before >then, including a fantasy trilogy (of the "Song of Ice and Fire" mode). Oh, good. Because the world really needs another Giant Fantasy Trilogy. Hopefully, he'll be able to bring the same individuality to it that made the Black Company stand out. -- "The net, like real life, is loaded to the gills with people who have the self-awareness of onions and such ability to critically evaluate their own thoughts as might be found among the tube-worms."--Frothing-at-the-Mouth Lad Dr.Elmo@whiterose.org http://www.whiterose.org/dr.elmo/ Stratagem Ideaware http://monstereditor.sourceforge.net/Stratagem.html ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Douglas Bishop <dougbishop@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Black Company Date: 09 Jan 2002 08:41:01 -0800 (PST) I wonder if he'd mind if someone else wrote one... Hmmmm. ;) D. --- Nicholas J Thalasinos <thalpres@bellatlantic.net> wrote: > Does anyone know if Glen Cook plans any other books > in the Black Company > series? > > Nicholas > > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives > of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Troy Lefman <tslefman@ctcis.net> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Black Company Date: 09 Jan 2002 10:50:00 +0000 I realize the Black Company is awesome and the series brought me to Glen Cook, but does anyone read anything but BC and Garrett? Glen has many other great stories and some can be had for original price (when books cost less than $2). "Dr. Elmo" wrote: > Steve Harris wondered aloud to the group: > >Glen plans one more book in the Black Company, according to the last > >time I saw him (October, at Archon), but he has many committments before > >then, including a fantasy trilogy (of the "Song of Ice and Fire" mode). > > Oh, good. Because the world really needs another Giant Fantasy Trilogy. > > Hopefully, he'll be able to bring the same individuality to it that made > the Black Company stand out. > -- > "The net, like real life, is loaded to the gills with people who have the > self-awareness of onions and such ability to critically evaluate their own > thoughts as might be found among the tube-worms."--Frothing-at-the-Mouth Lad > > Dr.Elmo@whiterose.org http://www.whiterose.org/dr.elmo/ > Stratagem Ideaware http://monstereditor.sourceforge.net/Stratagem.html > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "APZK" <korobka@beep.ru> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Black Company Date: 09 Jan 2002 19:48:45 +0300 > Oh, good. Because the world really needs another Giant Fantasy Trilogy. > > Hopefully, he'll be able to bring the same individuality to it that made > the Black Company stand out. I sure, it will be stand out, because,IMHO, all Cook's books are different - Garret books & BC books, Darkwar & Starfisheries had not much in common. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Sachse <sachse@clickcommerce.com> Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Black Company Date: 09 Jan 2002 10:48:03 -0600 I certainly do. After discovering the BC when it was new I devoured the first three Haunting Dread(a friend of mine's personal fav) and enjoyed it quite thoroughly. I believe the next non-BC I read was Darkwar. A strange series that for some reason affected me quite a bit. I've recently re-read The Dragon Never Sleeps, which in some ways needs a sequel and am currently re-reading Starfishers. I'm also a big fan of A Passage at Arms as well. I lost interest in Garrett after a couple of books, and Epic Fantasy done ala Cook could be, should be, what is missing in that genre (though I do think that Martin is doing a bang up job, just have to tell him to STOP killing people!) Sorry for lurking on the list for so long. I've enjoyed it tremendously. I've been a Cook fan for a long, long time and rank BC very high amongst my all time favorites. Dragon is up there as well ~John~ -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 4:50 AM I realize the Black Company is awesome and the series brought me to Glen Cook, but does anyone read anything but BC and Garrett? Glen has many other great stories and some can be had for original price (when books cost less than $2). "Dr. Elmo" wrote: > Steve Harris wondered aloud to the group: > >Glen plans one more book in the Black Company, according to the last > >time I saw him (October, at Archon), but he has many committments before > >then, including a fantasy trilogy (of the "Song of Ice and Fire" mode). > > Oh, good. Because the world really needs another Giant Fantasy Trilogy. > > Hopefully, he'll be able to bring the same individuality to it that made > the Black Company stand out. > -- > "The net, like real life, is loaded to the gills with people who have the > self-awareness of onions and such ability to critically evaluate their own > thoughts as might be found among the tube-worms."--Frothing-at-the-Mouth Lad > > Dr.Elmo@whiterose.org http://www.whiterose.org/dr.elmo/ > Stratagem Ideaware http://monstereditor.sourceforge.net/Stratagem.html > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Igor Filippov <igor@osc.edu> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Black Company Date: 09 Jan 2002 13:48:09 -0500 (EST) "Passage at arms" is absolutely astonishing. Darkwar books are interesting, but not on the level of BC imho. I didn't like "Tower of Fear" - re-read it just last month to see if I missed anything that other people enjoyed it so much, but couldn't find anything worth mentioning about that book, except the feeling of extensive boredoom. Igor On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Troy Lefman wrote: > I realize the Black Company is awesome and the series brought me to Glen Cook, > but does anyone read anything but BC and Garrett? Glen has many other great > stories and some can be had for original price (when books cost less than $2). > > "Dr. Elmo" wrote: > > > Steve Harris wondered aloud to the group: > > >Glen plans one more book in the Black Company, according to the last > > >time I saw him (October, at Archon), but he has many committments before > > >then, including a fantasy trilogy (of the "Song of Ice and Fire" mode). > > > > Oh, good. Because the world really needs another Giant Fantasy Trilogy. > > > > Hopefully, he'll be able to bring the same individuality to it that made > > the Black Company stand out. > > -- > > "The net, like real life, is loaded to the gills with people who have the > > self-awareness of onions and such ability to critically evaluate their own > > thoughts as might be found among the tube-worms."--Frothing-at-the-Mouth Lad > > > > Dr.Elmo@whiterose.org http://www.whiterose.org/dr.elmo/ > > Stratagem Ideaware http://monstereditor.sourceforge.net/Stratagem.html > > > > ======================================================================= > > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: malik coates <malikcoates@flashmail.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Black Company Date: 09 Jan 2002 12:08:48 -0800 "Tower of Fear" is one of my favorite GC books. It's a study of characters and motivations. It's like a "Man in High Castle" of dark fantasy. Each character has a distinct motivation driving his actions and the book just follows thier interaction. I love how mighty fighters can be brought low by simple people and how each character is so true to himself. I also love the last few Dread Empire books for similiar reasons. Igor Filippov wrote: >"Passage at arms" is absolutely astonishing. >Darkwar books are interesting, but not on the level of BC imho. >I didn't like "Tower of Fear" - re-read it just last month to see if I >missed anything that other people enjoyed it so much, but couldn't find >anything worth mentioning about that book, except the feeling of >extensive boredoom. > >Igor > > > >On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Troy Lefman wrote: > >>I realize the Black Company is awesome and the series brought me to Glen Cook, >>but does anyone read anything but BC and Garrett? Glen has many other great >>stories and some can be had for original price (when books cost less than $2). >> >>"Dr. Elmo" wrote: >> >>>Steve Harris wondered aloud to the group: >>> >Glen plans one more book in the Black Company, according to the last >>> >time I saw him (October, at Archon), but he has many committments before >>> >then, including a fantasy trilogy (of the "Song of Ice and Fire" mode). >>> >>>Oh, good. Because the world really needs another Giant Fantasy Trilogy. >>> >>>Hopefully, he'll be able to bring the same individuality to it that made >>>the Black Company stand out. >>>-- >>>"The net, like real life, is loaded to the gills with people who have the >>>self-awareness of onions and such ability to critically evaluate their own >>>thoughts as might be found among the tube-worms."--Frothing-at-the-Mouth Lad >>> >>>Dr.Elmo@whiterose.org http://www.whiterose.org/dr.elmo/ >>>Stratagem Ideaware http://monstereditor.sourceforge.net/Stratagem.html >>> >>>======================================================================= >>> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, >>> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. >>> >> >>======================================================================= >> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, >> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. >> > > >======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Igor Filippov <igor@osc.edu> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Black Company Date: 09 Jan 2002 15:14:49 -0500 (EST) I'm not sure about "characters and motivations" - the only character that actually exhibits interesting and active personality is Farhad (if I spell the name correctly) - the head of the mercenaries. The rest of them are just going with the flow. Neither "living" nor occupants, not even the Witch, ever do anything that is more than just waiting or some minute daily business. The whole book leaves impression of exactly that - waiting. And after all the waiting the ending is rather anti-climatic. Igor On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, malik coates wrote: > "Tower of Fear" is one of my favorite GC books. It's a study of > characters and motivations. It's like a "Man in High Castle" of dark > fantasy. Each character has a distinct motivation driving his actions > and the book just follows thier interaction. I love how mighty fighters > can be brought low by simple people and how each character is so true to > himself. > > I also love the last few Dread Empire books for similiar reasons. > > Igor Filippov wrote: > > >"Passage at arms" is absolutely astonishing. > >Darkwar books are interesting, but not on the level of BC imho. > >I didn't like "Tower of Fear" - re-read it just last month to see if I > >missed anything that other people enjoyed it so much, but couldn't find > >anything worth mentioning about that book, except the feeling of > >extensive boredoom. > > > >Igor > > > > > > > >On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Troy Lefman wrote: > > > >>I realize the Black Company is awesome and the series brought me to Glen Cook, > >>but does anyone read anything but BC and Garrett? Glen has many other great > >>stories and some can be had for original price (when books cost less than $2). > >> > >>"Dr. Elmo" wrote: > >> > >>>Steve Harris wondered aloud to the group: > >>> >Glen plans one more book in the Black Company, according to the last > >>> >time I saw him (October, at Archon), but he has many committments before > >>> >then, including a fantasy trilogy (of the "Song of Ice and Fire" mode). > >>> > >>>Oh, good. Because the world really needs another Giant Fantasy Trilogy. > >>> > >>>Hopefully, he'll be able to bring the same individuality to it that made > >>>the Black Company stand out. > >>>-- > >>>"The net, like real life, is loaded to the gills with people who have the > >>>self-awareness of onions and such ability to critically evaluate their own > >>>thoughts as might be found among the tube-worms."--Frothing-at-the-Mouth Lad > >>> > >>>Dr.Elmo@whiterose.org http://www.whiterose.org/dr.elmo/ > >>>Stratagem Ideaware http://monstereditor.sourceforge.net/Stratagem.html > >>> > >>>======================================================================= > >>> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > >>> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > >>> > >> > >>======================================================================= > >> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > >> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > >> > > > > > >======================================================================= > > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > > > > > > > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Harris <harrissg@SLU.EDU> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Black Company Date: 09 Jan 2002 14:39:04 -0600 Igor, What I find special about "Tower of Fear" is the way that all sides in a multi-sided conflict are made to appear justifiable--there are *no* black hats around (even the "evil" sorcerer who made the Tower of Fear had his good points). Steve ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: malik coates <malikcoates@flashmail.com> Subject: (glencook-fans) Tower Of Fear Date: 09 Jan 2002 13:49:42 -0800 ------------------ MINOR SPOILERS FOR TOWER OF FEAR I understand your point of view. I felt that most of the characters had actively created plans for the future. Where you saw all the characters just waiting, I saw each characters as watching a plan come to fruitition and dealing with the consequences when two plans crossed paths. Each plan was grounded in the events before the book and had a real motivation. The endings for most of the plans were outside of the scope of the book proper. The reason every character seems good is that when you look at the motivations... every character is motivated by love. Either love of a woman, family, an ideal, or country. The book is much more enjoyable when you try to figure out what it is that each character is in love with. The epilogs were also great in that they showed what the result of each love was and what characters achieved happy lives. It could be seen as anti-climatic, but this really was complicated character study and a simpler ending would have ruined the entire book. Igor Filippov wrote: >I'm not sure about "characters and motivations" - the only character that >actually exhibits interesting and active personality is Farhad (if I >spell the name correctly) - the head of the mercenaries. The rest of them >are just going with the flow. Neither "living" nor occupants, not even the >Witch, ever do anything that is more than just waiting or some minute >daily business. The whole book leaves impression of exactly that - >waiting. And after all the waiting the ending is rather anti-climatic. > >Igor > > >On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, malik coates wrote: > >>"Tower of Fear" is one of my favorite GC books. It's a study of >>characters and motivations. It's like a "Man in High Castle" of dark >>fantasy. Each character has a distinct motivation driving his actions >>and the book just follows thier interaction. I love how mighty fighters >>can be brought low by simple people and how each character is so true to >>himself. >> >>I also love the last few Dread Empire books for similiar reasons. >> >>Igor Filippov wrote: >> >>>"Passage at arms" is absolutely astonishing. >>>Darkwar books are interesting, but not on the level of BC imho. >>>I didn't like "Tower of Fear" - re-read it just last month to see if I >>>missed anything that other people enjoyed it so much, but couldn't find >>>anything worth mentioning about that book, except the feeling of >>>extensive boredoom. >>> >>>Igor >>> >>> >>> >>>On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Troy Lefman wrote: >>> >>>>I realize the Black Company is awesome and the series brought me to Glen Cook, >>>>but does anyone read anything but BC and Garrett? Glen has many other great >>>>stories and some can be had for original price (when books cost less than $2). >>>> >>>>"Dr. Elmo" wrote: >>>> >>>>>Steve Harris wondered aloud to the group: >>>>> >>>>>>Glen plans one more book in the Black Company, according to the last >>>>>>time I saw him (October, at Archon), but he has many committments before >>>>>>then, including a fantasy trilogy (of the "Song of Ice and Fire" mode). >>>>>> >>>>>Oh, good. Because the world really needs another Giant Fantasy Trilogy. >>>>> >>>>>Hopefully, he'll be able to bring the same individuality to it that made >>>>>the Black Company stand out. >>>>>-- >>>>>"The net, like real life, is loaded to the gills with people who have the >>>>>self-awareness of onions and such ability to critically evaluate their own >>>>>thoughts as might be found among the tube-worms."--Frothing-at-the-Mouth Lad >>>>> >>>>>Dr.Elmo@whiterose.org http://www.whiterose.org/dr.elmo/ >>>>>Stratagem Ideaware http://monstereditor.sourceforge.net/Stratagem.html >>>>> >>>>>======================================================================= >>>>>To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, >>>>>visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. >>>>> >>>>======================================================================= >>>>To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, >>>>visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. >>>> >>> >>>======================================================================= >>>To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, >>>visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. >>> >>> >> >> >> >>======================================================================= >> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, >> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. >> > > >======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lawrence Jenab" <ljenab@sunflower.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Black Company Date: 09 Jan 2002 15:47:02 -0600 This post has inspired some of the best discussion in a while--it amazes me how many different kinds of books Glen has written, and the degree to which they appeal differently even to his "hardest core" fans. Has there been a thread (I'm sure there has . . .) about what it is, essentially, that we all respond to in his books? People have pointed out that, in some ways, they can be viewed as "mere pulp" and not always gracefully written, but they sure keep us coming back for more. My $0.02 is that Glen never cheats the reader or wastes his/her time. I have trouble finding a sentence in his novels that doesn't need to be there (some throwaway lines in Garrett, but hey, that's Garrett). As short as they often are, they are splitting at the seams with plot. This kind of efficient writing takes real discipline, and it feels (I'm reaching for a word here) "courteous" to me. I like that every page gets me somewhere. I read an interview with Roger Zelazny in which he said that the most important thing he learned as a writer was how not to condescend to the reader--how to leave things out and refrain from over-explaining. I think Glen's style is so effective for me (despite the rough edges) because he is a master at leaving chunks of the imaginary world to be filled in by the reader. He rarely says too much, and his worlds cohere because it's my creative impulse as much as his that's keeping it all together. Some other fantasy writers overdescribe so much that the worldbuilding gets in the way of the reader. It also becomes sort of tyrannical--there's nothing left to my imagination, and I'm just a passive spectator. Sorry, that was a bit windy, wasn't it? Interested in what the group thinks, and sorry if this has been beaten to death when I wasn't paying attention. I've wanted to bring this up for a long time, but never had time to put my thoughts into words. Larry ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 4:28 PM > Does anyone know if Glen Cook plans any other books in the Black Company > series? > > Nicholas > > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Harris <harrissg@slu.edu> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Black Company Date: 10 Jan 2002 00:44:01 -0600 Larry, What I think I like most in Glen's writing is his honesty in approach both to characters and plot--warts where there ought to be warts, in the context he's set up, and plot complications from the given environment, as they are mandated by the context. (Well, Garrett books not the same--he plays fast and loose with character and plot requirements there.) This makes characters and plot organically a part of the environment, appropriately reacting to what is out there. Hence, the "gritty" feel to the BC (what makes it "fantasy-noir"); hence, the realistic motivations in "Tower of Fear"; hence, the feel of honest engagement in "Passage at Arms"; hence the feel or realistic Realpolitik in the "Dread Empire" series (well, the last ones, with Ragnar). Steve ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David George <d.s.george@verizon.net> Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Black Company Date: 09 Jan 2002 18:57:47 -0600 One book I have not heard mentioned (and it is worthy of mention) is The Heirs of Babylon. I know it is obscure and it is very early work, but I was surprised at how much I enjoyed it. Has anyone else read it? Beside Eric, I mean. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 3:47 PM This post has inspired some of the best discussion in a while--it amazes me how many different kinds of books Glen has written, and the degree to which they appeal differently even to his "hardest core" fans. Has there been a thread (I'm sure there has . . .) about what it is, essentially, that we all respond to in his books? People have pointed out that, in some ways, they can be viewed as "mere pulp" and not always gracefully written, but they sure keep us coming back for more. My $0.02 is that Glen never cheats the reader or wastes his/her time. I have trouble finding a sentence in his novels that doesn't need to be there (some throwaway lines in Garrett, but hey, that's Garrett). As short as they often are, they are splitting at the seams with plot. This kind of efficient writing takes real discipline, and it feels (I'm reaching for a word here) "courteous" to me. I like that every page gets me somewhere. I read an interview with Roger Zelazny in which he said that the most important thing he learned as a writer was how not to condescend to the reader--how to leave things out and refrain from over-explaining. I think Glen's style is so effective for me (despite the rough edges) because he is a master at leaving chunks of the imaginary world to be filled in by the reader. He rarely says too much, and his worlds cohere because it's my creative impulse as much as his that's keeping it all together. Some other fantasy writers overdescribe so much that the worldbuilding gets in the way of the reader. It also becomes sort of tyrannical--there's nothing left to my imagination, and I'm just a passive spectator. Sorry, that was a bit windy, wasn't it? Interested in what the group thinks, and sorry if this has been beaten to death when I wasn't paying attention. I've wanted to bring this up for a long time, but never had time to put my thoughts into words. Larry ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 4:28 PM > Does anyone know if Glen Cook plans any other books in the Black Company > series? > > Nicholas > > > > ======================================================== =============== > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > ======================================================== =============== To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chad Wicker" <cwicker@petrocom.com> Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Black Company Date: 10 Jan 2002 07:51:09 -0600 This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=_80DD8C75.86E78B98 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I read The Heirs of Babylon and enjoyed it. It is very different than his = other works I have read. It is obviously rough around the edges, typical = of early works. It was worth reading as a Glen Cook fan in seeing the = development of the Author. =20 Chad C. Wicker =20 Chad C. Wicker Systems Engineer Petrocom >>> d.s.george@verizon.net 01/09/02 06:57PM >>> One book I have not heard mentioned (and it is worthy of=20 mention) is The Heirs of Babylon. I know it is obscure and=20 it is very early work, but I was surprised at how much I=20 enjoyed it. Has anyone else read it? Beside Eric, I mean. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 3:47 PM This post has inspired some of the best discussion in a=20 while--it amazes me how many different kinds of books Glen has written, and the=20 degree to which they appeal differently even to his "hardest core" fans.=20 Has there been a thread (I'm sure there has . . .) about what it is,=20 essentially, that we all respond to in his books? People have pointed out that, in=20 some ways, they can be viewed as "mere pulp" and not always gracefully=20 written, but they sure keep us coming back for more. My $0.02 is that Glen never cheats the reader or wastes=20 his/her time. I have trouble finding a sentence in his novels that doesn't=20 need to be there (some throwaway lines in Garrett, but hey, that's Garrett).=20 As short as they often are, they are splitting at the seams with plot.=20 This kind of efficient writing takes real discipline, and it feels (I'm=20 reaching for a word here) "courteous" to me. I like that every page gets=20 me somewhere. I read an interview with Roger Zelazny in which he said=20 that the most important thing he learned as a writer was how not to=20 condescend to the reader--how to leave things out and refrain from=20 over-explaining. I think Glen's style is so effective for me (despite the rough=20 edges) because he is a master at leaving chunks of the imaginary world to be=20 filled in by the reader. He rarely says too much, and his worlds cohere=20 because it's my creative impulse as much as his that's keeping it all=20 together. Some other fantasy writers overdescribe so much that the worldbuilding=20 gets in the way of the reader. It also becomes sort of tyrannical--there's=20 nothing left to my imagination, and I'm just a passive spectator. Sorry, that was a bit windy, wasn't it? Interested in what=20 the group thinks, and sorry if this has been beaten to death when I=20 wasn't paying attention. I've wanted to bring this up for a long time,=20 but never had time to put my thoughts into words. Larry ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 4:28 PM > Does anyone know if Glen Cook plans any other books in=20 the Black Company > series? > > Nicholas > > > >=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of=20 this list, > visit=20 <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this=20 list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. --=_80DD8C75.86E78B98 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: HTML <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1"= > <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4616.200" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 2px; FONT: 8pt Tahoma; MARGIN-LEFT: 2px"> <DIV><FONT size=3D1>I read The Heirs of Babylon and enjoyed it. It = is very=20 different than his other works I have read. It is obviously rough = around=20 the edges, typical of early works. It was worth reading as a Glen = Cook fan=20 in seeing the development of the Author.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D1></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D1>Chad C. Wicker</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D1>Chad C. Wicker<BR>Systems Engineer<BR>Petrocom</FONT></= DIV> <DIV><BR>>>> d.s.george@verizon.net 01/09/02 06:57PM=20 >>><BR>One book I have not heard mentioned (and it is worthy = of=20 <BR>mention) is The Heirs of Babylon. I know it is obscure and = <BR>it is=20 very early work, but I was surprised at how much I <BR>enjoyed it. = Has=20 anyone else read it? Beside Eric, I mean.<BR><BR>-----Original=20 Message-----<BR>From: Lawrence=20 Jenab<BR>Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 3:47=20 PM<BR>To: =20 glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com<BR>Subject: Re:=20 (glencook-fans) Black Company<BR><BR>This post has inspired some of the = best=20 discussion in a <BR>while--it amazes me<BR>how many different kinds of = books=20 Glen has written, and the <BR>degree to which<BR>they appeal differently = even to=20 his "hardest core" fans. <BR>Has there been a<BR>thread (I'm sure there = has . .=20 .) about what it is, <BR>essentially, that we all<BR>respond to in his=20 books? People have pointed out that, in <BR>some ways, they<BR>can = be=20 viewed as "mere pulp" and not always gracefully <BR>written, but they<BR>su= re=20 keep us coming back for more.<BR><BR>My $0.02 is that Glen never cheats = the=20 reader or wastes <BR>his/her time. I<BR>have trouble finding a = sentence in=20 his novels that doesn't <BR>need to be there<BR>(some throwaway lines = in=20 Garrett, but hey, that's Garrett). <BR>As short as<BR>they often are, they = are=20 splitting at the seams with plot. <BR>This kind of<BR>efficient writing = takes=20 real discipline, and it feels (I'm <BR>reaching for a<BR>word here) = "courteous"=20 to me. I like that every page gets <BR>me somewhere.<BR><BR>I read = an=20 interview with Roger Zelazny in which he said <BR>that the most<BR>importan= t=20 thing he learned as a writer was how not to <BR>condescend to the<BR>reader= --how=20 to leave things out and refrain from <BR>over-explaining. I=20 think<BR>Glen's style is so effective for me (despite the rough <BR>edges)= =20 because he is<BR>a master at leaving chunks of the imaginary world to = be=20 <BR>filled in by the<BR>reader. He rarely says too much, and his = worlds=20 cohere <BR>because it's my<BR>creative impulse as much as his that's = keeping it=20 all <BR>together. Some other<BR>fantasy writers overdescribe so much = that=20 the worldbuilding <BR>gets in the way<BR>of the reader. It also = becomes=20 sort of tyrannical--there's <BR>nothing left to<BR>my imagination, and I'm = just=20 a passive spectator.<BR><BR>Sorry, that was a bit windy, wasn't = it? =20 Interested in what <BR>the group<BR>thinks, and sorry if this has been = beaten to=20 death when I <BR>wasn't paying<BR>attention. I've wanted to bring this up = for a=20 long time, <BR>but never had time<BR>to put my thoughts into=20 words.<BR><BR>Larry<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Nicholas = J=20 Thalasinos" <thalpres@bellatlantic.net><BR>To:=20 <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com><BR>Sent: Tuesday, January 08, = 2002 4:28=20 PM<BR>Subject: (glencook-fans) Black Company<BR><BR><BR>> Does anyone = know if=20 Glen Cook plans any other books in <BR>the Black Company<BR>>=20 series?<BR>><BR>> Nicholas<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>=20 <BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 <BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>> To = unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the=20 archives of <BR>this list,<BR>> visit <BR><<A=20 href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html">http://www.xmiss= ion.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html</A>>.<BR>><BR><BR><BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D =20 <BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>To unsubscribe, = subscribe, or access the archives of this=20 <BR>list,<BR>visit <<A=20 href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html">http://www.xmiss= ion.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html</A>>.<BR><BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>To=20 unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,<BR>visit = <<A=20 href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html">http://www.xmiss= ion.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html</A>>.<BR></DIV></BODY></HTML> --=_80DD8C75.86E78B98-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Troy Lefman <tslefman@ctcis.net> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Black Company Date: 10 Jan 2002 08:06:25 +0000 I'm still hunting a copy of that work. David George wrote: > One book I have not heard mentioned (and it is worthy of > mention) is The Heirs of Babylon. I know it is obscure and > it is very early work, but I was surprised at how much I > enjoyed it. Has anyone else read it? Beside Eric, I mean. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lawrence Jenab > Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 3:47 PM > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Black Company > > This post has inspired some of the best discussion in a > while--it amazes me > how many different kinds of books Glen has written, and the > degree to which > they appeal differently even to his "hardest core" fans. > Has there been a > thread (I'm sure there has . . .) about what it is, > essentially, that we all > respond to in his books? People have pointed out that, in > some ways, they > can be viewed as "mere pulp" and not always gracefully > written, but they > sure keep us coming back for more. > > My $0.02 is that Glen never cheats the reader or wastes > his/her time. I > have trouble finding a sentence in his novels that doesn't > need to be there > (some throwaway lines in Garrett, but hey, that's Garrett). > As short as > they often are, they are splitting at the seams with plot. > This kind of > efficient writing takes real discipline, and it feels (I'm > reaching for a > word here) "courteous" to me. I like that every page gets > me somewhere. > > I read an interview with Roger Zelazny in which he said > that the most > important thing he learned as a writer was how not to > condescend to the > reader--how to leave things out and refrain from > over-explaining. I think > Glen's style is so effective for me (despite the rough > edges) because he is > a master at leaving chunks of the imaginary world to be > filled in by the > reader. He rarely says too much, and his worlds cohere > because it's my > creative impulse as much as his that's keeping it all > together. Some other > fantasy writers overdescribe so much that the worldbuilding > gets in the way > of the reader. It also becomes sort of tyrannical--there's > nothing left to > my imagination, and I'm just a passive spectator. > > Sorry, that was a bit windy, wasn't it? Interested in what > the group > thinks, and sorry if this has been beaten to death when I > wasn't paying > attention. I've wanted to bring this up for a long time, > but never had time > to put my thoughts into words. > > Larry > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Chilton <rchilton@auracom.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Black Company Date: 10 Jan 2002 13:29:42 -0400 malik coates wrote: > > "Tower of Fear" is one of my favorite GC books. It's a study of > characters and motivations. It's like a "Man in High Castle" of dark > fantasy. Each character has a distinct motivation driving his actions > and the book just follows thier interaction. I love how mighty fighters > can be brought low by simple people and how each character is so true to > himself. > Just my opinion, but this is one of his better non-black company books. Not only does it have a wonderful take on reincarnation but there are two epilogues - one that tells you about the fates of the characters and one that describes what happens with the world. While this ruled out any sequels I enjoyed the lack of loose ends. The end of this book is a major contrast to his _Sword Bearer_ - a book that cries out for sequels that will probably never be written. While I've found a few of his books less enjoyable than others Cook remains at the head of my mental "it's a new book! buy it without reading the back in case the blurb gives something away" list. If memory serves he's lasted the longest on that list as other authors come (when I discover a very good one) and go (when I hit one to many clunkers from an author). Richard ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fraser Ronald <stelm7@yahoo.com> Subject: (glencook-fans) "Water Sleeps" hardcover cheap Date: 17 Jan 2002 07:29:50 -0800 (PST) For those of you in Canada, I just picked up a hardcover of "Water Sleeps" at Chapters for 5.99 (plus tax, of course!). I rarely buy hardcovers, so it was a great opportunity for me. This is the first hardcover Glen Cook novel I own. You might also be able to order it online for the same price, but if you are near a Chapters, go check it out. Fraser __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Chilton <rchilton@auracom.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) "Water Sleeps" hardcover cheap Date: 17 Jan 2002 12:56:05 -0400 Fraser Ronald wrote: > > For those of you in Canada, I just picked up a > hardcover of "Water Sleeps" at Chapters for 5.99 (plus > tax, of course!). I rarely buy hardcovers, so it was a > great opportunity for me. This is the first hardcover > Glen Cook novel I own. > There are only two reasons I buy hardcover - one is cases like this when the hardcover is as cheap or cheaper than the paperback. Alas, I already bought it for the second reason I buy hardcovers - there are a very few authors (and the list seems to be shrinking) whose books are so good I can't wait until they come out in paperback. Richard ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dmeyer@dmeyer.net Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) "Water Sleeps" hardcover cheap Date: 18 Jan 2002 01:07:56 -0500 In article <3C470225.425FC32A@auracom.com> you write: > There are only two reasons I buy hardcover - one is cases like this when > the hardcover is as cheap or cheaper than the paperback. Alas, I > already bought it for the second reason I buy hardcovers - there are a > very few authors (and the list seems to be shrinking) whose books are so > good I can't wait until they come out in paperback. Third reason: I already know that I want the book (or series) to last longer than most paperbacks last. Witness George R.R. Martin's latest. My problem with Cook is that I have so many in paperback that individual hardcovers would look out of place, and I don't really want to buy 20+ hardcovers even if they were all available (which they aren't). Sometimes, esthetics win out over practicality. Sigh. -- Dave Meyer dmeyer@dmeyer.net ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fraser Ronald <stelm7@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) "Water Sleeps" hardcover cheap Date: 18 Jan 2002 07:21:36 -0800 (PST) I agree with the first reason, but right now, until I start hauling in the big, big, BIG bucks, I'm forced to use a library for the initial read, and wait for the softcover to keep the collection current. I feel bad about that in that I'd like to support a writer like GLen Cook more fully. I'm glad I can at least support him through paperback sales (around $10 CAN for Soldier's Live, ouch! Though these days, that's like $6 US, so I guess it's a deal, except I'm paid in Canadian rather than US). Fraser --- Richard Chilton <rchilton@auracom.com> wrote: > Fraser Ronald wrote: > > > > For those of you in Canada, I just picked up a > > hardcover of "Water Sleeps" at Chapters for 5.99 > (plus > > tax, of course!). I rarely buy hardcovers, so it > was a > > great opportunity for me. This is the first > hardcover > > Glen Cook novel I own. > > > > There are only two reasons I buy hardcover - one is > cases like this when > the hardcover is as cheap or cheaper than the > paperback. Alas, I > already bought it for the second reason I buy > hardcovers - there are a > very few authors (and the list seems to be > shrinking) whose books are so > good I can't wait until they come out in paperback. > > Richard > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives > of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Chilton <rchilton@auracom.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) "Water Sleeps" hardcover cheap Date: 18 Jan 2002 12:47:15 -0400 dmeyer@dmeyer.net wrote: > > In article <3C470225.425FC32A@auracom.com> you write: > > There are only two reasons I buy hardcover - one is cases like this when > > the hardcover is as cheap or cheaper than the paperback. Alas, I > > already bought it for the second reason I buy hardcovers - there are a > > very few authors (and the list seems to be shrinking) whose books are so > > good I can't wait until they come out in paperback. > > Third reason: I already know that I want the book (or series) to last > longer than most paperbacks last. Witness George R.R. Martin's > latest. > That used to be my main reason in buying hardcovers - but over the years I've learned to be very careful while reading and storing paperbacks. Most of my books from the late 80s onward are in good condition. The biggest trick? Being careful of who I lend them to. It's to the point now that if I plan to leand a book I'll get two copies of the paperback (or pick up a second used copy months after the book comes out) - which is still more economical than buying hardcovers. > My problem with Cook is that I have so many in paperback that > individual hardcovers would look out of place, and I don't really want > to buy 20+ hardcovers even if they were all available (which they > aren't). Sometimes, esthetics win out over practicality. Sigh. For the Black Company: As far as I know _The Silver Spike_ and first two Books of the South were never published in hardcover while the first three are in a hardcover published by the Science Fiction Book Club. The Dread Empire and most stand alones (_Swordbearer_, _Tower of Fear_ etc): I don't think these every saw harcover. The Garnet Files: Think some have been published as collections by the SFBC. But you're right - it does look very weird to see paperback, paperback, hardcover - picked up the last Steven Burst one (Dragon) in hardcover and it looks weird next to the paperbacks that make up that series. Richard ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pardoz <pardoz@io.com> Subject: Re: Re: (glencook-fans) "Water Sleeps" hardcover cheap Date: 18 Jan 2002 14:14:48 -0400 PlRoZSBEcmVhZCBFbXBpcmUgYW5kIG1vc3Qgc3RhbmQgYWxvbmVzIChfU3dvcmRiZWFyZXJfLCBf VG93ZXIgb2YgRmVhcl8NCj5ldGMpOg0KPkkgZG9uJ3QgdGhpbmsgdGhlc2UgZXZlcnkgc2F3IGhh cmNvdmVyLg0KDQoJSWYgbWVtb3J5IHNlcnZlcywgX1Rvd2VyIG9mIEZlYXJfIHdhcyBoaXMgZmly c3QgcmVhbCAoaWUuIG5vdCBib29rIGNsdWIgZWRpdGlvbiksIG1hc3MtbWFya2V0IChpZS4gbm90 IG1pY3JvcHJlc3MsIGxpa2UgX1N1bmcgaW4gQmxvb2RfOyBjYW4ndCByZWNhbGwgb2ZmLWhhbmQg d2hldGhlciB0aGlzIG9uZSB3YXMgcHVibGlzaGVkIGJlZm9yZSBvciBhZnRlciBfVG93ZXJfKSBF bmdsaXNoLWxhbmd1YWdlIGhhcmRjb3ZlciwgYWN0dWFsbHkuICBXaGV0aGVyIG9yIG5vdCBpdCB3 YXMgdGhlIGZpcnN0LCBhIGhhcmRjb3ZlciBlZGl0aW9uIGRlZmluaXRlbHkgZXhpc3RzIC0gSSBr bm93LCAnY2F1c2UgSSBvd24gaXQgOi0pLg0KDQo+QnV0IHlvdSdyZSByaWdodCAtIGl0IGRvZXMg bG9vayB2ZXJ5IHdlaXJkIHRvIHNlZSBwYXBlcmJhY2ssIHBhcGVyYmFjaywNCj5oYXJkY292ZXIg LSBwaWNrZWQgdXAgdGhlIGxhc3QgU3RldmVuIEJ1cnN0IG9uZSAoRHJhZ29uKSBpbiBoYXJkY292 ZXINCj5hbmQgaXQgbG9va3Mgd2VpcmQgbmV4dCB0byB0aGUgcGFwZXJiYWNrcyB0aGF0IG1ha2Ug dXAgdGhhdCBzZXJpZXMuDQoNCglZb3UncmUgb25lIGJlaGluZCBvbiB5b3VyIEJydXN0cyAtIHRo ZSBuZXcgb25lICh0aGUgdGl0bGUgb2Ygd2hpY2ggZWx1ZGVzIG1lIGF0IHRoZSBtbycpIGhhcyBi ZWVuIG91dCBpbiBoYyBmb3Igc2V2ZXJhbCBtb250aHMgbm93Lg0K ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Chilton <rchilton@auracom.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) "Water Sleeps" hardcover cheap Date: 18 Jan 2002 13:19:42 -0400 Fraser Ronald wrote: > > I agree with the first reason, but right now, until I > start hauling in the big, big, BIG bucks, I'm forced > to use a library for the initial read, and wait for > the softcover to keep the collection current. I feel > bad about that in that I'd like to support a writer > like GLen Cook more fully. I'm glad I can at least > support him through paperback sales (around $10 CAN > for Soldier's Live, ouch! Though these days, that's > like $6 US, so I guess it's a deal, except I'm paid in > Canadian rather than US). > Lack of big bucks is why my list of "It's a new book buy it now and don't worry about the cost" keeps shrinking. Alas my local library has what is know as a shrinking budget and SF Fantasy isn't at the top of their buy list, so if I want to read it before the paperback comes out I have to buy it. It's hard looking at a hardcover, drolling, dreaming about reading it, then telling myself that I have to wait until it comes out in paperback because the price is just way too high. As for prices - as a fellow Canadian I'm hearing that book prices will hit $11 - 12 Cnd this summer as the price of paper goes up and the Canadian dollar goes down. Over the last 20 - 15 years the price of paperbacks have almost tripled and a new 7% tax was put on them in the late 80s or early 90s. Alas, I am addicted to books. It could be worse, I might be burning cash like smokers do or drinking it in the form of alcohol - but a significant chunk of my income goes to books. Richard ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Klobas@aol.com Subject: (glencook-fans) Re: glencook-fans-digest V1 #155 Date: 18 Jan 2002 12:48:55 EST I agree with the 3 'Why I Buy Hardcover' reasons listed, but there's another one that I believe in. I want to support the author. I want to tell Tor that they need to publish more Glen Cook, whether it be hardcover or paperback and the only way I can do that is through buying his books. Over the last 2-3 years I've purchased each of his Black Company books direct from the stores, even though I could have picked all of them up cheaper second-hand. I pay more for them but I feel it's a small price to pay. With the recent escalation in the price of paperbacks ($7.99!!) I apply this logic to all my purchases. I only buy new books of my very favorite authors. I pick up everything else used. S. Klobas ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brooke A. Wheeler" <bawheeler@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) "Water Sleeps" hardcover cheap Date: 18 Jan 2002 23:34:47 -0800 You might try interlibrary loan if your library doesn't have a particular book. Sometimes it takes them a couple of months to locate a copy for you, but usually, it's more like 3 weeks... I use it all the time when my library doesn't have a particular book--it's still a lot faster than waiting for them to buy a copy locally and (especially) faster than waiting for it to come out in PB. Richard Chilton wrote: > Lack of big bucks is why my list of "It's a new book buy it now and > don't worry about the cost" keeps shrinking. Alas my local library has > what is know as a shrinking budget and SF Fantasy isn't at the top of > their buy list, so if I want to read it before the paperback comes out I > have to buy it. It's hard looking at a hardcover, drolling, dreaming > about reading it, then telling myself that I have to wait until it comes > out in paperback because the price is just way too high. > > As for prices - as a fellow Canadian I'm hearing that book prices will > hit $11 - 12 Cnd this summer as the price of paper goes up and the > Canadian dollar goes down. Over the last 20 - 15 years the price of > paperbacks have almost tripled and a new 7% tax was put on them in the > late 80s or early 90s. > Alas, I am addicted to books. It could be worse, I might be burning > cash like smokers do or drinking it in the form of alcohol - but a > significant chunk of my income goes to books. > > Richard > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michele" <mr1@rcosta.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Off topic Date: 19 Jan 2002 15:29:46 -0500 The latest of the Vlad series by Steven Brust is "Athyra" which I liked better than Dragon. I got both in hardcover. Happily my friends and family aren't shy about asking what I want for Christmas/Birthday presents - and I'm not shy about telling them exactly which books I want. Yes, I am a bookaholic and they are my enablers. M mr1@rcosta.com On 18 Jan 2002 at 14:14, Pardoz wrote: > >But you're right - it does look very weird to see paperback, > >paperback, hardcover - picked up the last Steven Burst one (Dragon) > >in hardcover and it looks weird next to the paperbacks that make up > >that series. > > You're one behind on your Brusts - the new one (the title of which > eludes me at the mo') has been out in hc for several months now. Michele mr1@rcosta.com ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jake Kesinger <kesinger@hilbert.math.ttu.edu> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Off topic Date: 19 Jan 2002 14:45:41 -0600 (CST) On Sat, 19 Jan 2002, Michele wrote: > > The latest of the Vlad series by Steven Brust is "Athyra" which I > liked better than Dragon. I got both in hardcover. Happily my > friends and family aren't shy about asking what I want for > Christmas/Birthday presents - and I'm not shy about telling them > exactly which books I want. The latest in the Vlad series is _Issola_. _Athyra_ came out several years ago (and is now OOP, IIRC). ==Jake ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michele" <mr1@rcosta.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Off topic Date: 19 Jan 2002 17:28:33 -0500 SORRY. You're right. That's what I get for not getting off my seat and actually looking! M On 19 Jan 2002 at 14:45, Jake Kesinger wrote: > On Sat, 19 Jan 2002, Michele wrote: > > > > The latest of the Vlad series by Steven Brust is "Athyra" which I > > liked better than Dragon. I got both in hardcover. Happily my > > friends and family aren't shy about asking what I want for > > Christmas/Birthday presents - and I'm not shy about telling them > > exactly which books I want. > > The latest in the Vlad series is _Issola_. _Athyra_ came out several > years ago (and is now OOP, IIRC). > > ==Jake > > > ====================================================================== > = > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. Michele mr1@rcosta.com ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bagel <bagaele@netzero.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Off topic Date: 20 Jan 2002 19:34:37 -0800 So the big Taltos series question has to be " Will there be 17 books? And if he does 17 and the series is still going well, what names will he use next? Michele wrote: > SORRY. You're right. That's what I get for not getting off my seat > and actually looking! > > M > > On 19 Jan 2002 at 14:45, Jake Kesinger wrote: > > > On Sat, 19 Jan 2002, Michele wrote: > > > > > > The latest of the Vlad series by Steven Brust is "Athyra" which I > > > liked better than Dragon. I got both in hardcover. Happily my > > > friends and family aren't shy about asking what I want for > > > Christmas/Birthday presents - and I'm not shy about telling them > > > exactly which books I want. > > > > The latest in the Vlad series is _Issola_. _Athyra_ came out several > > years ago (and is now OOP, IIRC). > > > > ==Jake > > > > > > ====================================================================== > > = > > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > > Michele > mr1@rcosta.com > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Llaneza <maserati@speakeasy.net> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Off topic Date: 19 Jan 2002 16:53:55 -0800 Well, we're all HOPING for 17 Taltos books. Bagel wrote: > So the big Taltos series question has to be " Will there be 17 books? And >if he does 17 and the series is still going well, what names will he use >next? > >Michele wrote: > >>SORRY. You're right. That's what I get for not getting off my seat >>and actually looking! >> >>M >> >>On 19 Jan 2002 >> ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pardoz <pardoz@io.com> Subject: Re: Re: (glencook-fans) Off topic Date: 19 Jan 2002 22:0:26 -0400 PiBTbyB0aGUgYmlnIFRhbHRvcyBzZXJpZXMgcXVlc3Rpb24gaGFzIHRvIGJlICIgV2lsbCB0aGVy ZSBiZSAxNyBib29rcz8gQW5kDQo+aWYgaGUgZG9lcyAxNyBhbmQgdGhlIHNlcmllcyBpcyBzdGls bCBnb2luZyB3ZWxsLCB3aGF0IG5hbWVzIHdpbGwgaGUgdXNlDQo+bmV4dD8NCg0KCVdoZW4gSSB0 YWxrZWQgdG8gaGltIGF0IGEgY29uIHNvbWUgeWVhcnMgYmFjayBoZSBzYWlkIHRoYXQgdGhlIE1h c3RlciBQbGFuICh1bmxlc3MgaGUgZ290IGJvcmVkIHdpdGggVmxhZCkgd2FzIGFjdHVhbGx5IDE5 IGJvb2tzIC0gb25lIHBlciBIb3VzZSwgcGx1cyBfVGFsdG9zXyAoYWxyZWFkeSB3cml0dGVuKSBh bmQgX1RoZSBGaW5hbCBDb250cmFjdF8sIHdoaWNoIHdpbGwgYmUsIHdlbGwuLi4NCg== ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Chilton <rchilton@auracom.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Off topic Date: 19 Jan 2002 21:25:03 -0400 Bagel wrote: > > So the big Taltos series question has to be " Will there be 17 books? And > if he does 17 and the series is still going well, what names will he use > next? > Apperently he's already written one of the final scenes of the series. It's on his web site, and is basicaly the biggest spoiler for the series you can imagine. I clicked on it once, browsed it, and am still trying to forget it. Richard ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dr. Elmo" <dr.elmo@whiterose.org> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Off topic Date: 22 Jan 2002 09:04:31 -0600 Michele wondered aloud to the group: > >The latest of the Vlad series by Steven Brust is "Athyra" which I >liked better than Dragon. I think you mean "Issola"; "Athyra" comes between "Phoenix" and "Orca" and dates to the early 90s. IMO, "Athyra" is the nadir of the series, not least because it's not from Vlad's POV. "Issola" is pretty good and explains a whole freaking ton of backstory. -- "Y'know, since I've had actual *sex* this kinda stuff dulls me to tears. Nothing cures sophomoric salacious behavior towards women faster than an actual sex life."--Christopher James Priest Dr.Elmo@whiterose.org http://www.whiterose.org/dr.elmo/ Stratagem Ideaware http://monstereditor.sourceforge.net/Stratagem.html ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "don" <dfgarcia@stic.net> Subject: (glencook-fans) Heirs Of Babylon Date: 23 Jan 2002 10:23:01 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C1A3F7.EF572580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For those of you trying to complete your collection, I got a copy of = Heirs of Babylon for $5.95 US. off of ebay. I used the buy it now = feature. They are gouging me with the shipping fees ($3.50) but hey, I = can't find this book anywhere else. Right now there's a copy of a Matter = of Time with no bids on it. It has the Buy now option which is what I = used. If you can use this option before someone else bids, you can get a = pretty low price. I think the buy now is like $7.50. Go check it out. Don "In time, what's deserved always gets served"- COC ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C1A3F7.EF572580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.100" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For those of you trying to complete = your=20 collection, I got a copy of Heirs of Babylon for $5.95 US. off of ebay. = I used=20 the buy it now feature. They are gouging me with the shipping fees = ($3.50) but=20 hey, I can't find this book anywhere else. Right now there's a copy of a = Matter=20 of Time with no bids on it. It has the Buy now option which is what I = used. If=20 you can use this option before someone else bids, you can get a pretty = low=20 price. I think the buy now is like $7.50. Go check it out.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Don<BR>"In time, what's deserved always = gets=20 served"- COC</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C1A3F7.EF572580-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Chilton <rchilton@auracom.com> Subject: (glencook-fans) Speaking of supporting authors... Date: 24 Jan 2002 17:57:53 -0400 Mike Stackpole set up a page asking for support: http://www.stormwolf.com/essays/appeal.html I've seen another one from Spider Robinson. I've got a feeling that the publishing industry isn't doing all that well. What does this mean to us? It means that if you like an author you should recommend him to friends and support him by buying new books. Used ones are cheaper (and you can often get them in good condition) but the author doesn't see a penny of that sale. It's hard to believe that a best selling writing (750,000+ of one title would put him in that category) like Stackpole is looking at getting a day job. One of Cook's reasons for only putting out a few books a year was the hours put in at his full time "get money to feed my family" job. I'm not sure which of Cook's books are in print but I plan to round out my paperback collection (getting paperbacks when I already have the hardcovered ones means I have books I can lend). Richard ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Klobas@aol.com Subject: (glencook-fans) Re: glencook-fans-digest V1 #158 Date: 24 Jan 2002 17:34:52 EST I suspect that any book with a Star Wars logo on the cover will sell 750,000+ copies. Mike Stackpole has nothing to do with it. That said, his books look intriguing and I'd love to be in a position to support him (and all of the other authors I love to read) but I've got to look out for myself first. The only authors that I buy brand new right off the shelves are Glen Cook, George R.R. Martin, and Robert Jordan. Of those listed, I suspect that only Cook really benefits from my support. Anyone know if he's landed a publisher for his detective novel yet? S. Klobas ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wendy A. Shaffer" <wshaffer@uclink4.berkeley.edu> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Speaking of supporting authors... Date: 24 Jan 2002 16:44:00 -0800 (PST) Responding To: Richard Chilton <rchilton@auracom.com> Original Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:57:53 -0400 > > Mike Stackpole set up a page asking for support: > http://www.stormwolf.com/essays/appeal.html > > I've seen another one from Spider Robinson. I've got a feeling that the > publishing industry isn't doing all that well. Spider Robinson's appeal to his fans for help is a couple of years old. It was pretty much the result of Tor Books, which at that time published Robinson's _Callahan_ series, offering a low advance for the next book in the series. (Patrick Neilsen Hayden, an editor for Tor, said on Usenet that Tor thought the series was losing steam, and they would have preferred a stand-alone or a novel in a new series to a Callahan novel.) Robinson's since taken the Callahan series to a new publisher (Baen?); it seems to be selling well, and Robinson's also got a new book out from Tor. He's in a lot better situation than he was in when he wrote that appeal. None of this is to say that authors like Robinson or Stackpole don't need our support -- they very much do. Authors in the midlist are always in a precarious position. But I often see Robinson's appeal cited as a sign of The Imminent Doom of Publishing, and I wanted to point out that Robinson, with the help of fans who bought his books when it was important, has turned things around. > What does this mean to us? It means that if you like an author you > should recommend him to friends and support him by buying new books. > Used ones are cheaper (and you can often get them in good condition) but > the author doesn't see a penny of that sale. Yeah. If you really can't afford to buy the books new, (and I certainly can't afford to buy all the new books that I'd like to buy) don't forget the power of word of mouth. I know I've "sold" tons of copies of my favorite books by recommending them to friends. ---wendy wshaffer@uclink4.berkeley.edu ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: schew@interzone.com (Steve Chew) Subject: (glencook-fans) Re: Helping authors... Date: 25 Jan 2002 06:08:09 -0500 (EST) > >The only authors that I buy brand new right off the shelves are >Glen Cook, George R.R. Martin, and Robert Jordan. Of those listed, I >suspect that only Cook really benefits from my support. > I also try to be sure to buy all new books from authors that I like. Cook certainly benefits a bit from each sale since only decent sales will allow him to keep writing. However, while they may have been doing better than Cook, I think that both Martin and Jordan really only made it "big" with their most recent fantasy series. I'm happy for them -- I've enjoyed most everthing I've read by Martin. If you want to try some of Martin's other writing, I'd suggest "Tuf Voyaging" (novel) and "Sandkings" (short stories). Both are excellent though probably out of print. >Anyone know if he's landed a publisher for his detective novel yet? > Yes, any news on this? I'm looking forward to it. Steve ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Chilton <rchilton@auracom.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: Helping authors... Date: 25 Jan 2002 12:47:49 -0400 Steve Chew wrote: > > > > >The only authors that I buy brand new right off the shelves are > >Glen Cook, George R.R. Martin, and Robert Jordan. Of those listed, I > >suspect that only Cook really benefits from my support. > > > I also try to be sure to buy all new books from authors that I > like. Cook certainly benefits a bit from each sale since only decent > sales will allow him to keep writing. However, while they may have been > doing better than Cook, I think that both Martin and Jordan really only > made it "big" with their most recent fantasy series. I'm happy for > them -- I've enjoyed most everthing I've read by Martin. Jordon wrote in a licenced series for years (Conan) and when I first picked up Eye of the World I can remember wondering if they were the same person. While the Conan books were nice they weren't bestsellers. > If you want to try some of Martin's other writing, I'd suggest > "Tuf Voyaging" (novel) and "Sandkings" (short stories). Both are > excellent though probably out of print. > I'll agree that "Tuf Voyaging" is an excellent book (about Tuf and his space travels) and Sandkings was excellent. If memory serves they turned the short story 'Sandkings' into a TV episode - with a radically different setting and message. Something about an Earth scientist getting some space dust with the sandkings in it and being obsessed with them rather than the original playboy type looking for a new fighting animal. That said, I always try to pull any book from certain authors - the writters need the money. Occording to Stakepole's page buing $30 of his books only puts about $2 in his pocket. Richard ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dkord" <DomingKord@attbi.com> Subject: (glencook-fans) E-Books. Date: 25 Jan 2002 11:17:28 -0800 I bought a Compac Ipac pocket pc not too long ago. The device enable me to read Microsoft's and Adobe's E-book formats. While browsing the Sci Fi category from many online retailers, I noticed there is not a lot in the way of authors mentioned by this group. I hope Glen and more of our favorite authors get on board. If anyone has a good link to some great fantasy/Sci-Fi E-books I would appreciate them. From my understanding it isn't all that involved to put a book into an electronic media format sans contractual agreements. Maybe if there's enough requests, we'll see some of the "out of prints" show up...one can only hope. DKord. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brooke A. Wheeler" <bawheeler@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) E-Books. Date: 25 Jan 2002 14:01:27 -0800 If you enjoy reading Baen authors like Lois M. Bujold, David Weber, David Drake et cetera, try going to http://www.webscription.net where you can purchase a number of their titles in ebook format for Palm OS, PocketPC or Rocket formats. THey also have a number of books available for free at http://www.baen.com/library/ Right now I have over 60 books stashed on a memory card in my Palm PDA... it's great! There are other e-publishers out there too, but I haven't tried any of them yet, but Baen is certainly doing an excellent job. Dkord wrote: > I bought a Compac Ipac pocket pc not too long ago. The device enable me to > read Microsoft's and Adobe's E-book formats. > > While browsing the Sci Fi category from many online retailers, I noticed > there is not a lot in the way of authors mentioned by this group. > I hope Glen and more of our favorite authors get on board. If anyone has a > good link to some great fantasy/Sci-Fi E-books I would appreciate them. > >>From my understanding it isn't all that involved to put a book into an > electronic media format sans contractual agreements. > Maybe if there's enough requests, we'll see some of the "out of prints" show > up...one can only hope. > > DKord. > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BaronetCorvu@cs.com Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Speaking of supporting authors... Date: 25 Jan 2002 19:20:04 EST In a message dated 1/24/02 4:01:53 PM Central Standard Time, rchilton@auracom.com writes: > Mike Stackpole set up a page asking for support: > http://www.stormwolf.com/essays/appeal.html > What Stackpole isn't saying here is that tie-in series books get payed a small amount with no residuals for sales, as opposed to original novels. I can't speak for the Battletech and Star Wars novels he writes but I know that Star Trek novels pay the writers from $1000 to $2500 each, with no residuals. For most people a tie-in novel is 2-3 months work. If he had ever written an original book that sold as well as his worst selling Star Wars novel, he would not be in financial difficulty. Glen Cook has never told me even approximately what he has made per novel, but I doubt if most of his novels sold for more than a low 4 figure advance with small residuals. Unfortunately for all of us, he has never exactly been a best selling writer. What Glen ought to do is get Peter Jackson (Lord of the Rings) to buy the film rights to the Black Company and Garrett series for less than standard rate plus about a 2% gross residual on the films. If the films got made he would never have to worry about money again.... Michael W Sweet ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Troy Lefman <tslefman@ctcis.net> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Speaking of supporting authors... Date: 26 Jan 2002 12:21:18 +0000 Stackpole's problem is he catered too much to the fanboy market and not enough to his own work. Sure, he's got to make a living and he started relatively young doing something he enjoys. But, would you rather have 34 so-so books to your credit and only $2500 a piece in the bank or would you rather have 5 really good books with $10000 a piece? I do think he is doing something good to help his situation by going to the public and marketing his work. He's not sitting on his @$$ and complaining. (BTW, I have all of the Rogue Squadron books and several other Star Wars books he has written.) BaronetCorvu@cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/24/02 4:01:53 PM Central Standard Time, > rchilton@auracom.com writes: > > > Mike Stackpole set up a page asking for support: > > http://www.stormwolf.com/essays/appeal.html > > > > What Stackpole isn't saying here is that tie-in series books get payed a > small amount with no residuals for sales, as opposed to original novels. I > can't speak for the Battletech and Star Wars novels he writes but I know that > Star Trek novels pay the writers from $1000 to $2500 each, with no residuals. > For most people a tie-in novel is 2-3 months work. If he had ever written > an original book that sold as well as his worst selling Star Wars novel, he > would not be in financial difficulty. > > Glen Cook has never told me even approximately what he has made per novel, > but I doubt if most of his novels sold for more than a low 4 figure advance > with small residuals. Unfortunately for all of us, he has never exactly been > a best selling writer. > > What Glen ought to do is get Peter Jackson (Lord of the Rings) to buy the > film rights to the Black Company and Garrett series for less than standard > rate plus about a 2% gross residual on the films. If the films got made he > would never have to worry about money again.... > > Michael W Sweet > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Klobas@aol.com Subject: (glencook-fans) Re: glencook-fans-digest V1 #159 Date: 26 Jan 2002 18:40:11 EST Coincidentally, I read the story 'Sandkings' just last week. One of the most exhilarating reading experiences I've had in quite some time. Fabulous story. I've read most of Martin's output (after discovering him through his Song of Fire & Ice series), including _Tuf Voyaging_. I thought that _TV_ didn't work well as a fix-up novel, but some of the stories, in particular 'The Plague Star' were excellent reads. S. Klobas << If you want to try some of Martin's other writing, I'd suggest "Tuf Voyaging" (novel) and "Sandkings" (short stories). Both are excellent though probably out of print >> ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lawrence Jenab" <ljenab@sunflower.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: glencook-fans-digest V1 #159 Date: 26 Jan 2002 17:47:54 -0600 I loved Sandkings--thought the Showtime adaptation was lame, though. I'm just 100 pages into the Game of Thrones, and it's not wowing me. Does it get better? > > << If you want to try some of Martin's other writing, I'd suggest > "Tuf Voyaging" (novel) and "Sandkings" (short stories). Both are > excellent though probably out of print >> > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Graham Allen <ga@bigpond.net.au> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: glencook-fans-digest V1 #159 Date: 27 Jan 2002 10:00:24 +1000 MUCH better.. give it a chance, it's all setting a stage. Tell me what you think after finishing the second book. I bet you'll be in love. They are full of gritty realism, so I can't see a Glen Cook fan not liking them. At 05:47 26/01/02 -0600, you wrote: >I loved Sandkings--thought the Showtime adaptation was lame, though. > >I'm just 100 pages into the Game of Thrones, and it's not wowing me. Does >it get better? > > > > > << If you want to try some of Martin's other writing, I'd suggest > > "Tuf Voyaging" (novel) and "Sandkings" (short stories). Both are > > excellent though probably out of print >> > > > > ======================================================================= > > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > > > > > >======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Harris <harrissg@slu.edu> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Speaking of supporting authors... Date: 26 Jan 2002 22:49:14 -0600 Michael, "What Glen ought to do is get Peter Jackson (Lord of the Rings) to buy the film rights to the Black Company" Scary thought! A fully realized "BC: The Movie" would be quite chilling. I don't think it would really work: LotR aside, heroic fantasy movies just don't make significant amounts of money. Yes, Schwartzenegger got his start with a fairly skillful "Conan the Barbarian", but the series went swiftly down hill, and even the first was a flash in the pan. Damn, I'd love to see it realized: Catcher (spooky!), the transformation of The Lady from a dream to a reality scarier than the dream, the Plain of Fear, the palpable fear of the Dominator hanging over all... But I think we'll have to be satisfied with our individual imaginations. And mine's better than anyone else's, so there! :) Steve ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: malik coates <malikcoates@flashmail.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: glencook-fans-digest V1 #159 Date: 27 Jan 2002 02:02:45 -0800 Lawrence Jenab wrote: >I'm just 100 pages into the Game of Thrones, and it's not wowing me. Does >it get better? > yes. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fraser Ronald <stelm7@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) E-Books. Date: 27 Jan 2002 06:26:29 -0800 (PST) Actually, the maiden issue of "Sword's Edge", which is the new AtFantasy Alliance e-zine, is all about e-books. It's got sample chapters from two, a short story from an upcoming collection and a review of "Way of the Wolf" by E. E. Knight. Check it out at: http://www.atfantasy.com/swords_edge Shameless plug as I'm the editor! Fraser Ronald Editor, "Sword's Edge" (http://www.atfantasy.com/swords_edge) Admin, AtFantasy Alliance Fiction Archive (http://www.atfantasy.com/fiction) ". . . but the power of sentences has nothing to do with their sense or the logic of their construction." Joseph Conrad, "Lord Jim" --- Dkord <DomingKord@attbi.com> wrote: > If anyone has a > good link to some great fantasy/Sci-Fi E-books I > would appreciate them. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Igor Filippov <igor@osc.edu> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Speaking of supporting authors... Date: 27 Jan 2002 14:58:01 -0500 (EST) "Heroic fantasy movies don't make significant amounts of money" - how about "Mummy" and "Tomb Raider" and "Indiana Jones" and many, many more ? The thing is - imho - it's hard to make a _good_ fantasy movie and not to fall into cliche. Much easier to make Titanics and harvest oscars. Igor On Sat, 26 Jan 2002, Steve Harris wrote: > Michael, > > "What Glen ought to do is get Peter Jackson (Lord of the Rings) to buy > the > film rights to the Black Company" > > Scary thought! A fully realized "BC: The Movie" would be quite chilling. > > I don't think it would really work: LotR aside, heroic fantasy movies > just don't make significant amounts of money. Yes, Schwartzenegger got > his start with a fairly skillful "Conan the Barbarian", but the series > went swiftly down hill, and even the first was a flash in the pan. > > Damn, I'd love to see it realized: Catcher (spooky!), the > transformation of The Lady from a dream to a reality scarier than the > dream, the Plain of Fear, the palpable fear of the Dominator hanging > over all... > > But I think we'll have to be satisfied with our individual imaginations. > And mine's better than anyone else's, so there! :) > > Steve > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Chilton <rchilton@auracom.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Speaking of supporting authors... Date: 27 Jan 2002 16:53:30 -0400 Igor Filippov wrote: > > "Heroic fantasy movies don't make significant amounts of money" - > how about "Mummy" and "Tomb Raider" and "Indiana Jones" and many, > many more ? There's a difference between pulp and heroic fantasy. Pulp action movies make money while heroic fantasy (with few exceptions) don't. Dragonslayer, Ladyhawk, and others of that type don't make the money Mummy did. Putting it another way - change the mummies to international terrorists and shift the setting a bit and you still have the same fight scene - the special effects might be a bit different, but the thing driving the movie (action) is the same. Take a classic like Lord of the Rings with a huge build in audience. This Lord of the Rings may make money, but the last attempt at the project (mixing animation and live action shots) didn't. It tanked and took the film's creator's career down the toilet. > The thing is - imho - it's hard to make a _good_ fantasy movie > and not to fall into cliche. Much easier to make Titanics and harvest > oscars. > (Note - I'm not in the movie industry but I think most people who are will agree with the stuff below.) Not only is it hard to make the movie it's very hard to get money to make one. Tell someone you'll making "war movie meets Tatanic" and they'll bankroll something like Pearl Habour and watch the money roll in. Tell them you want to make a heroic fantasy movie and if it's not action pulp it won't get funded. There's reasons why Lord of the Rings wasn't made by a big Hollywood studio - and one of them is called "Dungeons and Dragons the Movie". The studio heads take one look at the bottom line of past failures and either kill the project or scale it back to a small budget B movie. Thinking of the first Black Company book, I can't see how it can be made into a movie. The characters don't have enough scenes where they shine, and when they done they are usually driven by horrific "you can't film it that way" situations. The cold blooded killing of Raven's wife - I can't see that in a movie. Not without so much of a build up to explain it that Raven's character is revealed when he joins the Black Company. Croaker's pity for the dead babies, that might get in. Raven's cold heart being touched by watching a little mute girl being raped - the rape scene would never make it so they'd need another way to introduce Darling. Heck even the Black Company raping and burning at Whisper's camp would have to be cut - and without scenes like those the heart is gone from the story. Worse, the villians in the first book (Limper, Soulcatcher at the end) aren't pure black. Cook's characters are in some cases too complicated, too morally grey to be the focus of a movie with a decent budget - unless you try a long movie like Dune. That leaves it as a small budget production which means little for sets and costume and not enough filming time to get the perfect shot. It could work as an animated venture - in a few years when process that made Final Fantasy becomes more affordable a small production company might be able to make a series out of the Black Company or a long movie. One problem would be finding an audience. One of speciality channels might handle it but if it's too explicit, violent, or doesn't fit the tastes of the day it might be a straight to video release (if that). Richard ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Harris <harrissg@slu.edu> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Speaking of supporting authors... Date: 27 Jan 2002 17:29:09 -0600 Igor, "how about "Mummy" and "Tomb Raider" and "Indiana Jones"" Not heroic fantasy, any of them. One of the chief defining points of heroic fantasy is that it be in a strictly non-industrial context, roughly the same technology level as medieval Europe (or earlier); it is highly important to each of those movies that the hero/ine be a 20th century figure, the better to engage the empathies of the audience. It's the distancing effect of a non-industrial society that is one of the major reasons that heroic fantasy doesn't do Really Well for general audiences--with the very welcome exception of LotR! I think that comes of Tolkien's genius in making such an engaging story, combined with Jackson's extraorinarily fine realization. (Yeah, it would be neat to have Jackson to "BC the Movie"...) Steve ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "C.L. Yona" <junkboy@cyberwhirled.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: glencook-fans-digest V1 #159 Date: 27 Jan 2002 18:26:29 -0500 >I loved Sandkings--thought the Showtime adaptation was lame, though. > >I'm just 100 pages into the Game of Thrones, and it's not wowing me. Does >it get better? Stick with it. I gave up in the first 100 pages too until someone practically ordered me to pick it up again. I'm thankful they did. With the Black Company finished I'd say it's the best series currently being written. yer dog www.thegriffin.com Reviews and previews of all things fantasy ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dr. Elmo" <dr.elmo@whiterose.org> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: glencook-fans-digest V1 #159 Date: 28 Jan 2002 09:02:08 -0600 Lawrence Jenab wondered aloud to the group: >I'm just 100 pages into the Game of Thrones, and it's not wowing me. Does >it get better? I feel obliged to give a countervailing opinion. No, it does not get better. In fact, in at least one significant respect, it gets worse: It has no ending. Like the worst of the rest of the giant fantasy trilogies Martin is consciously emulating, the end of volume I is not the end of a story, it's just the place where he hit his contractually-mandated wordcount. That's something that Cook's original Black Company series got right: each book of the trilogy ended a story, even as threads continued on. Martin is capable of innovation, insight, and real human drama. I can't fault him intellectually for setting that aside to make a pile of money by writing books that might as well be stamped "David Drake" or "David Farland" or "Terry Brooks" or "L.E. Modisette Jr.", but I can still fault him creatively. The world did not need another Wonder Bread fantasy series, and it definitely needs more George R. R. Martin stories. -- "The museum boasted owning the original version of Beethoven's unfinished basement."--Steve Connelly Dr.Elmo@whiterose.org http://www.whiterose.org/dr.elmo/ Stratagem Ideaware http://monstereditor.sourceforge.net/Stratagem.html ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "PrimalChrome" <chrome@wwisp.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: glencook-fans-digest V1 #159 Date: 28 Jan 2002 09:27:29 -0600 Is that Troll I smell, or do you honestly feel that any story written should fit between the bindings of a single book? I like it when a book closes an aspect of a storyline, but I also realize that an author's work shouldn't be constrained by the requirements of his publisher. Sure, a fair amount of epic fantasy is drek....or meat coated in a lot of filler....but condemning an entire style of storytelling seems a bit myopic. Martin's series may not close the curtains with the final page, but it does do a good job of dimming the lights until the next one appears on the shelves. It's far from perfect, but no where close to the cookie cutter story you're attempting to make it out to be... ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 9:02 AM > Lawrence Jenab wondered aloud to the group: > >I'm just 100 pages into the Game of Thrones, and it's not wowing me. Does > >it get better? > > I feel obliged to give a countervailing opinion. No, it does not get > better. In fact, in at least one significant respect, it gets worse: It has > no ending. Like the worst of the rest of the giant fantasy trilogies > Martin is consciously emulating, the end of volume I is not the end of a > story, it's just the place where he hit his contractually-mandated wordcount. > > That's something that Cook's original Black Company series got right: each > book of the trilogy ended a story, even as threads continued on. > > Martin is capable of innovation, insight, and real human drama. I can't > fault him intellectually for setting that aside to make a pile of money by > writing books that might as well be stamped "David Drake" or "David > Farland" or "Terry Brooks" or "L.E. Modisette Jr.", but I can still fault > him creatively. The world did not need another Wonder Bread fantasy > series, and it definitely needs more George R. R. Martin stories. > -- > "The museum boasted owning the original version of Beethoven's unfinished > basement."--Steve Connelly > > Dr.Elmo@whiterose.org http://www.whiterose.org/dr.elmo/ > Stratagem Ideaware http://monstereditor.sourceforge.net/Stratagem.html > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: glencook-fans-digest V1 #159 Date: 28 Jan 2002 08:42:53 -0700 on 1/28/02 8:27 AM, PrimalChrome at chrome@wwisp.com wrote: > Is that Troll I smell, or do you honestly feel that any story written should > fit between the bindings of a single book? I like it when a book closes an > aspect of a storyline, but I also realize that an author's work shouldn't be > constrained by the requirements of his publisher. Sure, a fair amount of > epic fantasy is drek....or meat coated in a lot of filler....but condemning > an entire style of storytelling seems a bit myopic. Martin's series may not > close the curtains with the final page, but it does do a good job of dimming > the lights until the next one appears on the shelves. It's far from > perfect, but no where close to the cookie cutter story you're attempting to > make it out to be... Let's remember what the main topic of this list is. Compare and contrast authors of authors is acceptable as long as one of them is Cook. -- Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com> <owner-glencook-fans@xmission.com> ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dr. Elmo" <dr.elmo@whiterose.org> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: glencook-fans-digest V1 #159 Date: 28 Jan 2002 10:06:27 -0600 PrimalChrome wondered aloud to the group: >Is that Troll I smell, or do you honestly feel that any story written should >fit between the bindings of a single book? I would prefer to phrase it a different way: Anything between a single pair of book covers should have at least one beginning, middle, and end. That's what a story is. If I'm plunking down $6.99, I want a story. It can be part of a larger story--it is often the mark of a entertaining writer that he leaves us wanting to know what happens next--but it should have something about it that can be identified as complete. Innovation in craft is in supplying the necessary elements of a story in an unexpected or unfamiliar way. The middle book of trilogies is tough to do. Compare, say, book two of Tad Williams' "Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn" to "Shadows Linger". Not only can I not remember the name of Williams' book, I have absolutely no recollection of where the book starts or ends. Cook's book, on the other hand, stands on its own. It introduces the story of the malevolent castle, advances it, and wreaks profound changes in the characters and circumstances before ending. At the same time, it bridges the first and last stories in the trilogy, a dual accomplishment that is the mark of a writer in command of his craft. >condemning an entire style of storytelling seems a bit myopic. At least some aspect of my rhetoric is devoted to challenging complacency. It's easy to just sit down and read without thinking. I often do it myself, but I like to think that I can, when I want to. When I go off on a rant, I expect people to disagree with me--art is personal--but I want folks to disagree with me because they're thinking about the work. I like arguing with smart people :-) In the particular case of the Giant Fantasy Trilogy Rant, I do think that there has been a hard swing of the fantasy market (since Robert Jordan and, further back, since Eddings) to highly-promoted best-sellers that are deliberately generic. "David Farland", for example, is a pseudonym for an author who was a B-list SF writer; he and his publisher sat down and concocted "The Runelords" precisely to get a piece of the brick-shaped fantasy tome market. Art could not have been a significant concern in that endeavor. It is, of course, still possible to do art (innovative, entertaining, or both) even in this overworked genre. > Martin's series may not >close the curtains with the final page, but it does do a good job of dimming >the lights until the next one appears on the shelves. I disagree; I closed the first book with a deep sense that nothing had ended. Instead, he went ahead and introduced the next beginning (wozname and her dragon egg). >It's far from perfect, but no where close to the cookie cutter story >you're attempting to make it out to be... I'll agree that its degree of craft is quite high, as I'd expect Martin's work to be. There are even some Martin stylistic touches--in particular, the true father of the king's heirs was an element that I would not have expected from a cookie cutter writer. And, of course, Martin is appalled by a happy ending, so there was a full-on tragic feel as the characters headed to their inevitable and eventual doom. But, ultimately, my feel is that the book brought nothing new to the dynastic struggle story and introduced no innovations nor stretched the bounds of the fantasy genre. Possibly my expectations were too high. -- "Ahem...Okay, here's what we've got. The Rand Corporation, in conjunction with the saucer people, under the supervision of the reverse vampires, are forcing our parents to go to bed early, in a fiendish plot to eliminate the meal of dinner. We're through the looking glass here, people!!"--Milhouse Dr.Elmo@whiterose.org http://www.whiterose.org/dr.elmo/ Stratagem Ideaware http://monstereditor.sourceforge.net/Stratagem.html ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brooke A. Wheeler" <bawheeler@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: glencook-fans-digest V1 #159 Date: 28 Jan 2002 19:39:36 -0800 Dr. Elmo wrote: > Martin is capable of innovation, insight, and real human drama. I can't > fault him intellectually for setting that aside to make a pile of money > by writing books that might as well be stamped "David Drake" or "David > Farland" or "Terry Brooks" or "L.E. Modisette Jr.", but I can still > fault him creatively. The world did not need another Wonder Bread > fantasy series, and it definitely needs more George R. R. Martin stories. And this would be a bad thing why exactly? I've never read anything by David Farland, but the other three (especially Drake) have written a lot of really excellent stuff. In fact, those three authors make up a good chunk of my library. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Klobas@aol.com Subject: (glencook-fans) Re: glencook-fans-digest V1 #161 Date: 28 Jan 2002 23:44:21 EST < "David Farland", for example, is a pseudonym for an author who was a B-list < SF writer; he and his publisher sat down and concocted "The Runelords" < precisely to get a piece of the brick-shaped fantasy tome market. Art < could not have been a significant concern in that endeavor. While I can't comment on the behind-the-scenes machinations to which you allude, I can say that I have read some of "Farland's" SF works and can say without a doubt that it was some of the most compelling and moving SF that I have ever read. Book 1 of his Runelords series isn't too bad either (Book 2 bored me to tears. I took one look at the cover of Book 3 and realized that there's no way I would ever pick it up). S. Klobas ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brooke A. Wheeler" <bawheeler@mediaone.net> Subject: (glencook-fans) David Drake <--> Glen Cook Date: 29 Jan 2002 00:23:40 -0800 Hmmm... OK, I think that David Drake's _Hammer's Slammers_ series has a lot of similarities to Glen Cook's _Black Company_ series. 1) Both are about a mercenary company 2) Both deal with the moral issues of war from the perspective of the grunts at the "sharp end" I dunno...anyone else have an opinion on this one? I've seen Cook's work compared to a number of other FANTASY series in my time on this list, but his writing style, or at least some of the moral questions he raises, also has a lot in common with some military SF stuff. Harry Turtledove? S. M. Stirling? Eric Herrmann wrote: > on 1/28/02 8:27 AM, PrimalChrome at chrome@wwisp.com wrote: > > >>Is that Troll I smell, or do you honestly feel that any story written should >>fit between the bindings of a single book? I like it when a book closes an >>aspect of a storyline, but I also realize that an author's work shouldn't be >>constrained by the requirements of his publisher. Sure, a fair amount of >>epic fantasy is drek....or meat coated in a lot of filler....but condemning >>an entire style of storytelling seems a bit myopic. Martin's series may not >>close the curtains with the final page, but it does do a good job of dimming >>the lights until the next one appears on the shelves. It's far from >>perfect, but no where close to the cookie cutter story you're attempting to >>make it out to be... >> > > Let's remember what the main topic of this list is. Compare and contrast > authors of authors is acceptable as long as one of them is Cook. > > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "PrimalChrome" <chrome@wwisp.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) David Drake <--> Glen Cook Date: 29 Jan 2002 09:25:24 -0600 True, Drake's stories are much like the early Black Company novels in both tone and the fact that they tend to be short and to the point....with little room for author self-gratification. The characters in both series are well developed and do a good job of realistically walking the tightrope of the moral gray. (or not in the case of Mercy or Joachim Steubin) Drake's fantasy work feels more like the late Black Company books, except worse...a bit bloated and as much fat as meat. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 2:23 AM > Hmmm... OK, I think that David Drake's _Hammer's Slammers_ series has a lot of > similarities to Glen Cook's _Black Company_ series. > > 1) Both are about a mercenary company > 2) Both deal with the moral issues of war from the perspective of the grunts at > the "sharp end" > > I dunno...anyone else have an opinion on this one? I've seen Cook's work > compared to a number of other FANTASY series in my time on this list, but his > writing style, or at least some of the moral questions he raises, also has a lot > in common with some military SF stuff. Harry Turtledove? S. M. Stirling? > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "A Turner" <azerole80@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) David Drake <--> Glen Cook Date: 30 Jan 2002 12:02:59 +1100 SPOILERS (Shadows Linger) Brooke A. Wheeler wrote >Hmmm... OK, I think that David Drake's _Hammer's Slammers_ series has a lot >of >similarities to Glen Cook's _Black Company_ series. > >1) Both are about a mercenary company >2) Both deal with the moral issues of war from the perspective of the >grunts at >the "sharp end" > >I dunno...anyone else have an opinion on this one? I've seen Cook's work >compared to a number of other FANTASY series in my time on this list, but >his >writing style, or at least some of the moral questions he raises, also has >a lot >in common with some military SF stuff. Harry Turtledove? S. M. Stirling? > Re writing style and moral issuesà I certainly haven't seen another fantasy writer who manages to change both form and characterization of the people narrating like Glen does in the BC series. I'm just rereading Shadows Linger, and right from the start of the second book you can see people changing. Raven becomes as morally black as the Dominator and his creatures, all in order to protect Darling, while Croaker and co. start to question what they're doing more and more, even though they keep on doing it (until the end that is). I don't think you could get that broader moral perspective in the straight first person narration of the original book - you really need to look at characters like Marron Shed and Asa in their grubby surroundings in order to understand why they act like they do. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brooke A. Wheeler" <bawheeler@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) David Drake <--> Glen Cook Date: 30 Jan 2002 10:14:22 -0800 To what book are you referring specifically? The only fantasy by Drake that I have read is his Mistress of the Isles series, and I thoroughly enjoyed all three of those books. I found them to be thoughtful, engaging and original. PrimalChrome wrote: > True, Drake's stories are much like the early Black Company novels in both > tone and the fact that they tend to be short and to the point....with little > room for author self-gratification. The characters in both series are well > developed and do a good job of realistically walking the tightrope of the > moral gray. (or not in the case of Mercy or Joachim Steubin) Drake's > fantasy work feels more like the late Black Company books, except worse...a > bit bloated and as much fat as meat. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brooke A. Wheeler" <bawheeler@mediaone.net> > To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 2:23 AM > Subject: (glencook-fans) David Drake <--> Glen Cook > > > >>Hmmm... OK, I think that David Drake's _Hammer's Slammers_ series has a >> > lot of > >>similarities to Glen Cook's _Black Company_ series. >> >>1) Both are about a mercenary company >>2) Both deal with the moral issues of war from the perspective of the >> > grunts at > >>the "sharp end" >> >>I dunno...anyone else have an opinion on this one? I've seen Cook's work >>compared to a number of other FANTASY series in my time on this list, but >> > his > >>writing style, or at least some of the moral questions he raises, also has >> > a lot > >>in common with some military SF stuff. Harry Turtledove? S. M. Stirling? >> >> > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Chilton <rchilton@auracom.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) David Drake <--> Glen Cook Date: 30 Jan 2002 15:32:56 -0400 A Turner wrote: > > SPOILERS (Shadows Linger) > I certainly haven't seen another fantasy writer who manages to change both > form and characterization of the people narrating like Glen does in the BC > series. I'm just rereading Shadows Linger, and right from the start of the > second book you can see people changing. Raven becomes as morally black as > the Dominator and his creatures, all in order to protect Darling, while > Croaker and co. start to question what they're doing more and more, even > though they keep on doing it (until the end that is). I don't think you > could get that broader moral perspective in the straight first person > narration of the original book - you really need to look at characters like > Marron Shed and Asa in their grubby surroundings in order to understand why > they act like they do. > I think one of the best parts of Cook's writings is he uses normal people. His characters aren't the "I'll never fail" heroes, the souless villians, nor any other stock characters but normal people. One of my favorite scenes from Shadows Linger has to do with the murder of the second moneylender. The waitress (Lisa) was tough as nails in theory - willing and able to do whatever it took to get out of the wretched life she lived. Let's kill the moneylender and maybe some homeless folk this winter - in theory there was nothing she wouldn't do. In theory - but the first murder she was involved in shook her to the bone. OK, the circumstances of that killing were bad for her but even if it had happened the way she'd planned I think the reality of death, of murder, would have made an impression. She'd thought she was ready to do anything but death shook her - because she was just a normal person in a bad situation. She wasn't a blackhearted villian, just someone who didn't want to die poor. When normal people are the characters it's easy to fit inside their skin - which makes the book more plausible, more real. Richard ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Chilton <rchilton@auracom.com> Subject: (glencook-fans) Trilogy.... Date: 30 Jan 2002 16:09:31 -0400 Been away from emails fro a few days, so someone might have already pointed this out, but... > I feel obliged to give a countervailing opinion. No, it does not get > better. In fact, in at least one significant respect, it gets worse: It has > no ending. Like the worst of the rest of the giant fantasy trilogies > Martin is consciously emulating, the end of volume I is not the end of a > story, it's just the place where he hit his contractually-mandated wordcount. > > That's something that Cook's original Black Company series got right: each > book of the trilogy ended a story, even as threads continued on. Calling something a trilogy means it is one story told in three parts. The books of the North (first 3 Black company novels) weren't a trilory - they were a series of three books. You could throw in _The Silver Spike_ and call it a four book series, but while a single thread ran through the books there was more than one ending and one beginning. One story - three books. Why are some many fantasy authors involved in trilogies or works billed as trilogies? Lord of the Rings - which is a bit irronic in that LotR is told as 6 books in three volumes. The story I've heard about why LotR was published as a trilogy is the publishers weren't sure it would sell (or paper rationing was an issue - I've heard both) so to reduce the risk they published it in three parts. Sales worries is also why the original dragonlance series isn't a trilogy: was talking to Margaret Wies at a convention years ago when she pointed out that the first book had a definate ending and its reason - TSR wasn't sure if the books would sell and if the sales figures were low they wouldn't finish the series. The ending was so the readers wouldn't be left hanging. After the above rant I guess I should point out that I have nothing against three volume serieses - just wish they weren't called trilogies. Richard ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: schew@interzone.com (Steve Chew) Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Trilogy.... Date: 30 Jan 2002 16:18:20 -0500 (EST) > >Calling something a trilogy means it is one story told in three parts. >The books of the North (first 3 Black company novels) weren't a trilory >- they were a series of three books. You could throw in _The Silver >Spike_ and call it a four book series, but while a single thread ran >through the books there was more than one ending and one beginning. > >One story - three books. > An interesting distinction. It would sometimes be nice to know ahead of time which books were independent parts of a series and which were one story told across multiple books. I'm finding that I prefer to wait for all the books to be published if it's going to be a single story told across multiple books. I'm not sure that most people care enough to start making the distiction though. Plus "trilogies" seem to be a marketing method and are pretty popular with readers. It could get tricky in some circumstances. For example, the latest two books by Elizabeth Moon (Change of Command and Against the Odds) are really a duology -- one story in two books. But they are part of a bigger series. What would they be called? :) I would like to have known that those two were a duology since as I was reading the first one I was not happy with the development of the characters/plot since I thought it was going to end in one book. Other series have this "middle duology" type of issue too, like the BC. >Why are some many fantasy authors involved in trilogies or works billed >as trilogies? Lord of the Rings - which is a bit irronic in that LotR >is told as 6 books in three volumes. The story I've heard about why >LotR was published as a trilogy is the publishers weren't sure it would >sell (or paper rationing was an issue - I've heard both) so to reduce >the risk they published it in three parts. > Paper rationing? That seems rather unlikely in 1954, especially considering that there were probably very few books in the original publishing run. The Korean war was over by then -- were they still rationing things? It seems more likely that the publishers thought that no one would buy a 1000+ page book that they'd never heard of. >Sales worries is also why the original dragonlance series isn't a >trilogy: was talking to Margaret Wies at a convention years ago when she >pointed out that the first book had a definate ending and its reason - >TSR wasn't sure if the books would sell and if the sales figures were >low they wouldn't finish the series. The ending was so the readers >wouldn't be left hanging. > There are a number of "trilogies" that have a definitive end to the first book, probably for that reason. Is it more useful to refer to them as a single book followed by a duology? Probably not for most people. If it were that useful, some terminology would have come into existence to deal with it. Steve -- Steve Chew - schew@interzone.com - http://www.interzone.com "I hate people who make generalizations." ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Trilogy.... Date: 30 Jan 2002 14:31:27 -0700 > There are a number of "trilogies" that have a definitive end > to the first book, probably for that reason. Is it more useful to > refer to them as a single book followed by a duology? Probably not for > most people. If it were that useful, some terminology would have come > into existence to deal with it. I think the Dread Empire and StarFishers certainly fall into this category. -- Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com> ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WinB@aol.com Subject: (glencook-fans) Shadows Linger Source Date: 30 Jan 2002 17:40:23 EST I was reading a book on the Regency period in England (c. 1800-1820) and came across a section on Resurrection Men. It seems that anatomists and medical schools couldn't get enough cadavers, so people started digging up dead bodies and selling them to the schools. It turns out that a Burke in Scotland decided it was too much work digging up the bodies (getting the out of the Catacombs, so to speak) so he started suffocating people staying at an inn. At one point, the discussion sounds very much like Cook as an anatomist comments about how nice the bodies are and to "come back soon." Win ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Horky, Roger" <rhorky@trinity.edu> Subject: FW: (glencook-fans) Trilogy.... Date: 30 Jan 2002 17:13:58 -0600 The great grandaddy of "trilogies" in science fiction/fantasy is Tolkien's LORD OF THE RINGS; however, it is not a true trilogy, being one story broken into three parts. Tolkien submitted a 1000+ page manuscript and his publisher (wisely) decided to release it as three separate books, believing it would not have sold as a single volume. But LotR is very distictly a single narrative; the three books do not stand alone as stories witht their own begiining, middles, and ends. The breaks were determined by volume size, not narrative necessity. Try explaining to a non-Tolkien fan why the first movie ended where it did. Sadly, later writers, having the success of LotR to emulate, created their own so-called "trilogies" which were, in fact, one story in three volumes. I hate this format; it is the refuge of a undisciplined and uninformed writer and/or editor. A true trilogy is a trio of works that each stand alone as narratives yet are connected ("developing a single theme" as so many online dictionaries describe them). Elizabeth Lynn wrote a trilogy in which several hundred years pass between each story/book; Sophocles' Oedipus trilogy and Shakespeare's Henry VI trilogy are each three plays, each of which stand alone with a beginning, a middle, and an end. The willingness to tolerate a trilogy that is just one story in three parts is a relatively recent development. However, given that the public has decided that a 'trilogy' is any three books with the same characters... why don't we make the same distinction hockey fans make for "hat tricks?" A 'hat trick' is a three-goal game by a single player. A "'true' hat trick" is three goals in a game uninterrupted by an other scoring. A 'trilogy' would be a ny three-part story. A "true trilogy" would be three independent but linked stories. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "PrimalChrome" <chrome@wwisp.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Trilogy.... Date: 30 Jan 2002 18:03:29 -0600 Two irritations that come to mind reading this.... 1. LotR was to have been six books, not three. It is/was published in three volumes. 2. The term trilogy has no real application when discussing Cook, Martin, Jordan, or Brust. None of the series being discussed are trilogies, in either method of interpretation listed. ...and a third just for good measure... 3. Why the hell is it that anyone writing something that won't fit in the bindings of a single book is always trying to emulate Tolkien? It's almost a prerequisite that in any discussion of fantasy articles they *MUST* be likened to the demigod Tolkien...even if the speaker has to reach so far as to compare the length of the tale being told. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 5:13 PM > > The great grandaddy of "trilogies" in science fiction/fantasy is > Tolkien's LORD OF THE RINGS; however, it is not a true trilogy, being > one story broken into three parts. > > Tolkien submitted a 1000+ page manuscript and his publisher (wisely) > decided to release it as three separate books, believing it would not > have sold as a single volume. But LotR is very distictly a single > narrative; the three books do not stand alone as stories witht their own > begiining, middles, and ends. The breaks were determined by volume size, > not narrative necessity. > > Try explaining to a non-Tolkien fan why the first movie ended where it > did. > > Sadly, later writers, having the success of LotR to emulate, created > their own so-called "trilogies" which were, in fact, one story in three > volumes. I hate this format; it is the refuge of a undisciplined and > uninformed writer and/or editor. > > A true trilogy is a trio of works that each stand alone as narratives > yet are connected ("developing a single theme" as so many online > dictionaries describe them). Elizabeth Lynn wrote a trilogy in which > several hundred years pass between each story/book; Sophocles' Oedipus > trilogy and Shakespeare's Henry VI trilogy are each three plays, each of > which stand alone with a beginning, a middle, and an end. The > willingness to tolerate a trilogy that is just one story in three parts > is a relatively recent development. > > However, given that the public has decided that a 'trilogy' is any three > books with the same characters... why don't we make the same distinction > hockey fans make for "hat tricks?" A 'hat trick' is a three-goal game by > a single player. A "'true' hat trick" is three goals in a game > uninterrupted by an other scoring. A 'trilogy' would be a ny three-part > story. A "true trilogy" would be three independent but linked stories. > > > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Harris <harrissg@SLU.EDU> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Shadows Linger Source Date: 30 Jan 2002 18:07:00 -0600 Win, The Resurrection Man (htting people on the head to get bodies for anatomical dissection) is one of the more memorable characters in Dickens' _Tale of Two Cities_. Steve ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: schew@interzone.com (Steve Chew) Subject: Re: FW: (glencook-fans) Trilogy.... Date: 30 Jan 2002 19:29:36 -0500 (EST) > >Sadly, later writers, having the success of LotR to emulate, created >their own so-called "trilogies" which were, in fact, one story in three >volumes. I hate this format; it is the refuge of a undisciplined and >uninformed writer and/or editor. > Why? Would you consider the later Black Company books, some of which did not have "endings" undisciplined? It seems to me that sometimes an author has more to say than can be said in a reasonably sized book. Or, are you just against the idea of releasing the first part before the others are completed since the first part cannot then be revised? >A true trilogy is a trio of works that each stand alone as narratives >yet are connected ("developing a single theme" as so many online >dictionaries describe them). > This is the opposite of what I think of as a trilogy. I think of a trilogy as 3 books that tell one story (see earlier email). Wouldn't it make more sense to call a set of books that are related a "series"? That way you're not restricted to only talking about series of length 3 (or 2 for duology). What would you call the Black Company if we only had the terms "trilogy" or "true trilogy"? Calling them a series is more convenient. > >However, given that the public has decided that a 'trilogy' is any three >books with the same characters... why don't we make the same distinction >A 'hat trick' is a three-goal game by a single player. A "'true' hat trick" >is three goals in a game uninterrupted by an other scoring. > I've always heard this called a "natural hat trick." :) Steve ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lawrence Jenab" <ljenab@sunflower.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) David Drake <--> Glen Cook Date: 30 Jan 2002 20:22:12 -0600 I really agree with that, Richard. Oddly enough, Cook's fantasy books have more genuine human nature in them than a dozen books of the supposed "psychological realism" school. Larry ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 1:32 PM > A Turner wrote: > > > > SPOILERS (Shadows Linger) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I certainly haven't seen another fantasy writer who manages to change both > > form and characterization of the people narrating like Glen does in the BC > > series. I'm just rereading Shadows Linger, and right from the start of the > > second book you can see people changing. Raven becomes as morally black as > > the Dominator and his creatures, all in order to protect Darling, while > > Croaker and co. start to question what they're doing more and more, even > > though they keep on doing it (until the end that is). I don't think you > > could get that broader moral perspective in the straight first person > > narration of the original book - you really need to look at characters like > > Marron Shed and Asa in their grubby surroundings in order to understand why > > they act like they do. > > > > I think one of the best parts of Cook's writings is he uses normal > people. His characters aren't the "I'll never fail" heroes, the souless > villians, nor any other stock characters but normal people. > > One of my favorite scenes from Shadows Linger has to do with the murder > of the second moneylender. The waitress (Lisa) was tough as nails in > theory - willing and able to do whatever it took to get out of the > wretched life she lived. Let's kill the moneylender and maybe some > homeless folk this winter - in theory there was nothing she wouldn't do. > > In theory - but the first murder she was involved in shook her to the > bone. OK, the circumstances of that killing were bad for her but even > if it had happened the way she'd planned I think the reality of death, > of murder, would have made an impression. She'd thought she was ready > to do anything but death shook her - because she was just a normal > person in a bad situation. She wasn't a blackhearted villian, just > someone who didn't want to die poor. > > When normal people are the characters it's easy to fit inside their skin > - which makes the book more plausible, more real. > > Richard > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "C.L. Yona" <junkboy@cyberwhirled.com> Subject: Re: FW: (glencook-fans) Trilogy.... Date: 30 Jan 2002 21:40:52 -0500 > >The great grandaddy of "trilogies" in science fiction/fantasy is >Tolkien's LORD OF THE RINGS; however, it is not a true trilogy, being >one story broken into three parts. Actually, Tolkien considered it one book in six parts, not three. yer dog ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Llaneza <maserati@speakeasy.net> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) David Drake <--> Glen Cook Date: 30 Jan 2002 21:07:20 -0800 Cook asks a unique question in several of his books. What turned a happy smiling child into a destructive megalomaniacal psychopath ? This comes up in the BC books, Dread Empire novels, and in Swordbearer. It's a psychological insight very few authors have. I'd like to see him trace a protagonist from childhood to the darkside. And I'll bet he outdoes Lucas. Lawrence Jenab wrote: >I really agree with that, Richard. Oddly enough, Cook's fantasy books have >more genuine human nature in them than a dozen books of the supposed >"psychological realism" school. > >Larry > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Richard Chilton" <rchilton@auracom.com> >To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com> >Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 1:32 PM >Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) David Drake <--> Glen Cook > > >>A Turner wrote: >> >>>SPOILERS (Shadows Linger) >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>I certainly haven't seen another fantasy writer who manages to change >>> >both > >>>form and characterization of the people narrating like Glen does in the >>> >BC > >>>series. I'm just rereading Shadows Linger, and right from the start of >>> >the > >>>second book you can see people changing. Raven becomes as morally black >>> >as > >>>the Dominator and his creatures, all in order to protect Darling, while >>>Croaker and co. start to question what they're doing more and more, even >>>though they keep on doing it (until the end that is). I don't think you >>>could get that broader moral perspective in the straight first person >>>narration of the original book - you really need to look at characters >>> >like > >>>Marron Shed and Asa in their grubby surroundings in order to understand >>> >why > >>>they act like they do. >>> >>I think one of the best parts of Cook's writings is he uses normal >>people. His characters aren't the "I'll never fail" heroes, the souless >>villians, nor any other stock characters but normal people. >> >>One of my favorite scenes from Shadows Linger has to do with the murder >>of the second moneylender. The waitress (Lisa) was tough as nails in >>theory - willing and able to do whatever it took to get out of the >>wretched life she lived. Let's kill the moneylender and maybe some >>homeless folk this winter - in theory there was nothing she wouldn't do. >> >>In theory - but the first murder she was involved in shook her to the >>bone. OK, the circumstances of that killing were bad for her but even >>if it had happened the way she'd planned I think the reality of death, >>of murder, would have made an impression. She'd thought she was ready >>to do anything but death shook her - because she was just a normal >>person in a bad situation. She wasn't a blackhearted villian, just >>someone who didn't want to die poor. >> >>When normal people are the characters it's easy to fit inside their skin >>- which makes the book more plausible, more real. >> >>Richard >> >>======================================================================= >> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, >> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. >> > > > >======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Craig Dutton <craigld@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Trilogy.... Date: 31 Jan 2002 04:08:56 -0800 (PST) --- PrimalChrome <chrome@wwisp.com> wrote: > Two irritations that come to mind reading this.... > > 1. LotR was to have been six books, not three. It is/was published in > three volumes. LotR [a written-to-order sequel to the Hobbit, which Tolkien produced only in order to gain publisher approval for his magnum opus the Silmarillion] is one long novel. It was originally published in 3 parts, denoting six books. It is currently published in 1, 3, or 7 volumes (the final volume being, presumably, the appendixes). > 2. The term trilogy has no real application when discussing Cook, Martin, > Jordan, or Brust. None of the series being discussed are trilogies, in > either method of interpretation listed. Point. > ...and a third just for good measure... > 3. Why the hell is it that anyone writing something that won't fit in the > bindings of a single book is always trying to emulate Tolkien? It's almost > a prerequisite that in any discussion of fantasy articles they *MUST* be > likened to the demigod Tolkien...even if the speaker has to reach so far as > to compare the length of the tale being told. Indeed. However, Tolkien is notable within the genre for providing the proof that multi-volume novels would sell. This is also helped along by the publishers, who sometimes push whatever fantasy authour they want to push as 'if you like Tolkien, try X'... As for series/related novels, I tend to classify them as follows... - Multivolume novels. Pretty much have to be read in sequence. Follow a direct storyline from one to the other with no significant gaps in the narrative. Examples are the Fat Fantasy genre and its SF equivalents. - Sequel(s). Stories which build from one to the other, where reading them in order may be advantageous but is not essential. Characters usually carry over, but the main individual storyline often differs. Think Garrett. - 'One universe' Series. Stories related by being set in the same background/'universe'; individual stories may have little to no crossover of plot or characters with the other novels. Some series, for example Discworld, are 'one universe' series that have sequel series [Witches, Guards, Rincewind] within them. Others [The Eternal Champion] have multivolume novels within the shared universe. This doesn't include marketing-driven variations such as the 'crossover series'. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Horky, Roger" <rhorky@trinity.edu> Subject: (glencook-fans) trilogies II Date: 31 Jan 2002 08:33:44 -0600 know that the the editor/writer/publisher left me hanging instead of delivering to me a complete work. consider: the first book in the Horatio Hornblower series by C.S. Forester was originally released in one volume. This single book told a single story; however, it was divided into three parts, each of which was complete in and of itself. In subsequent editions, these three stories were ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Horky, Roger" <rhorky@trinity.edu> Subject: (glencook-fans) trilogies III Date: 31 Jan 2002 08:36:06 -0600 released as stand-alone volumes, three separate books. The single-volume book is about 'normal' thickness; the stand-alone books are fairly thin. All i can think of to explain the change is greed: somebody figured, 'why sell one book at a bean a copy when we can sell three books at a bean each?' Those of you in the 'one stories, three parts' school will no doubt see nothing unusual in this message; to those of you who, like me, want each work to stand alone, I apologise. (aside: an uninterrupted three-goal sequence can also be called a 'pure' hat trick) ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Horky, Roger" <rhorky@trinity.edu> Subject: (glencook-fans) FW: trilogies I Date: 31 Jan 2002 08:38:37 -0600 (i put the wrong address on this one and totally screwed up the point i was trying to make) I think the thing that bothers me the most about 'trilogies' is that I hate reading a book that doesn't stand alone. No matter how good it is, and no matter how excited I am about reading the next one, I feel ripped off, because I ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "PrimalChrome" <chrome@wwisp.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) trilogies III Date: 31 Jan 2002 09:01:30 -0600 This is a childish comparison as you well know. Please keep such bullshit posts to your Harry Potter mailing list. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 8:36 AM > Those of you in the 'one stories, three parts' school will no doubt see > nothing unusual in this message; to those of you who, like me, want each > work to stand alone, I apologise. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "PrimalChrome" <chrome@wwisp.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Trilogy.... Date: 31 Jan 2002 09:04:58 -0600 Good breakdown. Now for the kicker.... How do you classify The Black Company and the Books of the South? Based on your breakdown I would think Series would fit the best, but I'm curious as to your viewpoint. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 6:08 AM > As for series/related novels, I tend to classify them as follows... > > - Multivolume novels. Pretty much have to be read in sequence. Follow a > direct storyline from one to the other with no significant gaps in the > narrative. Examples are the Fat Fantasy genre and its SF equivalents. > - Sequel(s). Stories which build from one to the other, where reading them in > order may be advantageous but is not essential. Characters usually carry over, > but the main individual storyline often differs. Think Garrett. > - 'One universe' Series. Stories related by being set in the same > background/'universe'; individual stories may have little to no crossover of > plot or characters with the other novels. > > Some series, for example Discworld, are 'one universe' series that have sequel > series [Witches, Guards, Rincewind] within them. Others [The Eternal Champion] > have multivolume novels within the shared universe. > > This doesn't include marketing-driven variations such as the 'crossover series'. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! > http://auctions.yahoo.com > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Craig Dutton <craigld@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Trilogy.... Date: 31 Jan 2002 07:35:49 -0800 (PST) --- PrimalChrome <chrome@wwisp.com> wrote: > Good breakdown. Now for the kicker.... How do you classify The Black > Company and the Books of the South? Based on your breakdown I would think > Series would fit the best, but I'm curious as to your viewpoint. Depends on which books. They definitely don't fit into the most general category of shared universe. I'd tend to classify the books of the North as sequels, whereas the books of the South are closer to a multivolume novel. Reason being that while the books of the north carry over characters, some plot, and history [making them more than just novels in the same universe] they each represent a distinct story that happens to the characters over time, as opposed to a continuous narrative. Whereas the Books of the South are much more of a coherent whole, where the narrative and storyline are more continuous. You could argue for a break between She is the Darkness and Water Sleeps, as the narrative [temporally at least] stops and resumes at a later point. A better example of "shared universe series" in the way I mean would be Passage at arms and the Starfishers books. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Horky, Roger" <rhorky@trinity.edu> Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Trilogy.... Date: 31 Jan 2002 12:07:23 -0600 The first three books are a trilogy, by my definition, but with the addition of the rest, I think it's easier just to call it a 'series' and have done with it. THE SILVER SPIKE stands alone, The Books of the South are a duology, but all together, 'series' is probably the best word. Piers Anthony's Xanth series started out as a trilogy (and a damn good one, I might add) but quickly devolved into the mess it is today. Same with LeGuin's Earthsea trilogy--now it's a series. Somebody asked me earlier if, based on my expressed desire for books that stand alone, if I liked the later BC books (which didn't have internal resolutions). No, not really (the format, not the content)--I really like my books to be complete--but I am willing to accept just about anything from Glen Cook. Similarly, I don't read science fiction much, preferring fantasy, but enjoy Cook's SF work very much. -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 9:05 AM Good breakdown. Now for the kicker.... How do you classify The Black Company and the Books of the South? Based on your breakdown I would think Series would fit the best, but I'm curious as to your viewpoint. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 6:08 AM > As for series/related novels, I tend to classify them as follows... > > - Multivolume novels. Pretty much have to be read in sequence. Follow a > direct storyline from one to the other with no significant gaps in the > narrative. Examples are the Fat Fantasy genre and its SF equivalents. > - Sequel(s). Stories which build from one to the other, where reading them in > order may be advantageous but is not essential. Characters usually carry over, > but the main individual storyline often differs. Think Garrett. > - 'One universe' Series. Stories related by being set in the same > background/'universe'; individual stories may have little to no crossover of > plot or characters with the other novels. > > Some series, for example Discworld, are 'one universe' series that have sequel > series [Witches, Guards, Rincewind] within them. Others [The Eternal Champion] > have multivolume novels within the shared universe. > > This doesn't include marketing-driven variations such as the 'crossover series'. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! > http://auctions.yahoo.com > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Horky, Roger" <rhorky@trinity.edu> Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) trilogies III Date: 31 Jan 2002 12:09:55 -0600 You express displeasure at my unitary narrative broken up into three parts--so do I. We are in agreement. Just thought I'd create an extreme example to demonstrate precisely WHY they're so annoying. Thank you for demonstrating my point. -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 9:01 AM This is a childish comparison as you well know. Please keep such bullshit posts to your Harry Potter mailing list. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 8:36 AM > Those of you in the 'one stories, three parts' school will no doubt see > nothing unusual in this message; to those of you who, like me, want each > work to stand alone, I apologise. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Craig Dutton <craigld@yahoo.com> Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) trilogies III Date: 31 Jan 2002 10:49:22 -0800 (PST) --- "Horky, Roger" <rhorky@trinity.edu> wrote: > You express displeasure at my unitary narrative broken up into three > parts--so do I. We are in agreement. Just thought I'd create an extreme > example to demonstrate precisely WHY they're so annoying. Thank you for > demonstrating my point. Except your point is a falsely extreme analogy. It might be barely relevant to purely marketing driven serializations [such as the original serial publication of Steven King's The Green Mile] but isn't relevant to the issue of multivolume novels. Most multivolume novels are published over several books for reasons that include the economic [how many authors or publishers would take the risk of preparing 6000 pages of written material prior to the first publication] but also the practical [it being presently unfeasible to properly bind a 6000 page single volume]. A standalone book is much like a movie. You delve into it, you enjoy it, and then you're done. Multivolume novels or long sequel-series are more like a television series, where part of the enjoyment can be the time to reflect on the current installment and wonder where the writer(s) will go in the future. When you say that you like standalone books but not multivolume novels it's akin to saying that you like movies, but not television series. It's a matter of taste, and nothing more than that. Your example has nothing useful to add about the nature of such works or why you find them unsatisfying; by using an extreme example you prove nothing about the real-world examples, which are more than abundant enough to have been used in a rational discussion of their relative merits and flaws compared to other works. > > -----Original Message----- > From: PrimalChrome [mailto:chrome@wwisp.com] > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 9:01 AM > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) trilogies III > > > This is a childish comparison as you well know. Please keep such bullshit > posts to your Harry Potter mailing list. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Horky, Roger" <rhorky@trinity.edu> > To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com> > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 8:36 AM > Subject: (glencook-fans) trilogies III > > > > Those of you in the 'one stories, three parts' school will no doubt see > > nothing unusual in this message; to those of you who, like me, want each > > work to stand alone, I apologise. > > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "PrimalChrome" <chrome@wwisp.com> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) trilogies III Date: 31 Jan 2002 12:53:47 -0600 Sorry, you demonstrated nothing more than a piss-poor attempt at being an annoyance. An apt comparison to your 'extreme example' would be my saying that I do not enjoy opera. Then in order to demonstrate what I do not like about opera I would have a five year old sing his favorite barney song for a few hours at the top of her lungs. There is no comparison, it is only a infantile attempt at gathering attention to one's self. The probable reason you find epic tales to be 'displeasing' or 'annoying' is because you're a classic example of the spoon-fed television programmed american. Your patience and ability to absorb is limited to the now of immediate gratification rather than any kind of ability or desire to appreciate something of any real length or worth. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:09 PM > You express displeasure at my unitary narrative broken up into three > parts--so do I. We are in agreement. Just thought I'd create an extreme > example to demonstrate precisely WHY they're so annoying. Thank you for > demonstrating my point. > > -----Original Message----- > From: PrimalChrome [mailto:chrome@wwisp.com] > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 9:01 AM > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) trilogies III > > > This is a childish comparison as you well know. Please keep such bullshit > posts to your Harry Potter mailing list. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Horky, Roger" <rhorky@trinity.edu> > To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com> > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 8:36 AM > Subject: (glencook-fans) trilogies III > > > > Those of you in the 'one stories, three parts' school will no doubt see > > nothing unusual in this message; to those of you who, like me, want each > > work to stand alone, I apologise. > > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sam Roberts <Sam.Roberts@apollogrp.edu> Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) David Drake <--> Glen Cook - DARKWAR SPOILERS Date: 31 Jan 2002 15:49:25 -0700 I finally got off my butt and procured some of his non-BC and Garrett books in the form of the Darkwar trilogy and granted, I'm only most of the way through the second novel, but it seems to me that Marika is that sort of character as well. We start with her as a "pup" and see how the destruction of her packstead starts her on the road to becoming something that is so far not quite a destructive megalomaniacal psychopath, but not too far off either. I just finished reading about the bloody vengeance she wreaked upon the meth who destroyed Maksche and the way she murdered her mentor and I'm amazed that I still sort of like her. I think it's because we get to follow her from her days as a pup and witness first hand the circumstances that make her what she is. Just another example of how Glen Cook writes in shades of gray rather than absolutes. Sam -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 10:07 PM Cook asks a unique question in several of his books. What turned a happy smiling child into a destructive megalomaniacal psychopath ? This comes up in the BC books, Dread Empire novels, and in Swordbearer. It's a psychological insight very few authors have. I'd like to see him trace a protagonist from childhood to the darkside. And I'll bet he outdoes Lucas. Lawrence Jenab wrote: >I really agree with that, Richard. Oddly enough, Cook's fantasy books >have more genuine human nature in them than a dozen books of the >supposed "psychological realism" school. > >Larry > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Richard Chilton" <rchilton@auracom.com> >To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com> >Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 1:32 PM >Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) David Drake <--> Glen Cook > > >>A Turner wrote: >> >>>SPOILERS (Shadows Linger) >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>I certainly haven't seen another fantasy writer who manages to change >>> >both > >>>form and characterization of the people narrating like Glen does in >>>the >>> >BC > >>>series. I'm just rereading Shadows Linger, and right from the start >>>of >>> >the > >>>second book you can see people changing. Raven becomes as morally >>>black >>> >as > >>>the Dominator and his creatures, all in order to protect Darling, >>>while Croaker and co. start to question what they're doing more and >>>more, even though they keep on doing it (until the end that is). I >>>don't think you could get that broader moral perspective in the >>>straight first person narration of the original book - you really >>>need to look at characters >>> >like > >>>Marron Shed and Asa in their grubby surroundings in order to >>>understand >>> >why > >>>they act like they do. >>> >>I think one of the best parts of Cook's writings is he uses normal >>people. His characters aren't the "I'll never fail" heroes, the >>souless villians, nor any other stock characters but normal people. >> >>One of my favorite scenes from Shadows Linger has to do with the >>murder of the second moneylender. The waitress (Lisa) was tough as >>nails in theory - willing and able to do whatever it took to get out >>of the wretched life she lived. Let's kill the moneylender and maybe >>some homeless folk this winter - in theory there was nothing she >>wouldn't do. >> >>In theory - but the first murder she was involved in shook her to the >>bone. OK, the circumstances of that killing were bad for her but even >>if it had happened the way she'd planned I think the reality of death, >>of murder, would have made an impression. She'd thought she was ready >>to do anything but death shook her - because she was just a normal >>person in a bad situation. She wasn't a blackhearted villian, just >>someone who didn't want to die poor. >> >>When normal people are the characters it's easy to fit inside their >>skin >>- which makes the book more plausible, more real. >> >>Richard >> >>====================================================================== >>= >> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, >> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. >> > > > >======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit ><http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sam Roberts <Sam.Roberts@apollogrp.edu> Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) David Drake <--> Glen Cook - DARKWAR SPOILERS Date: 31 Jan 2002 15:49:25 -0700 I finally got off my butt and procured some of his non-BC and Garrett books in the form of the Darkwar trilogy and granted, I'm only most of the way through the second novel, but it seems to me that Marika is that sort of character as well. We start with her as a "pup" and see how the destruction of her packstead starts her on the road to becoming something that is so far not quite a destructive megalomaniacal psychopath, but not too far off either. I just finished reading about the bloody vengeance she wreaked upon the meth who destroyed Maksche and the way she murdered her mentor and I'm amazed that I still sort of like her. I think it's because we get to follow her from her days as a pup and witness first hand the circumstances that make her what she is. Just another example of how Glen Cook writes in shades of gray rather than absolutes. Sam -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 10:07 PM Cook asks a unique question in several of his books. What turned a happy smiling child into a destructive megalomaniacal psychopath ? This comes up in the BC books, Dread Empire novels, and in Swordbearer. It's a psychological insight very few authors have. I'd like to see him trace a protagonist from childhood to the darkside. And I'll bet he outdoes Lucas. Lawrence Jenab wrote: >I really agree with that, Richard. Oddly enough, Cook's fantasy books >have more genuine human nature in them than a dozen books of the >supposed "psychological realism" school. > >Larry > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Richard Chilton" <rchilton@auracom.com> >To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com> >Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 1:32 PM >Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) David Drake <--> Glen Cook > > >>A Turner wrote: >> >>>SPOILERS (Shadows Linger) >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>I certainly haven't seen another fantasy writer who manages to change >>> >both > >>>form and characterization of the people narrating like Glen does in >>>the >>> >BC > >>>series. I'm just rereading Shadows Linger, and right from the start >>>of >>> >the > >>>second book you can see people changing. Raven becomes as morally >>>black >>> >as > >>>the Dominator and his creatures, all in order to protect Darling, >>>while Croaker and co. start to question what they're doing more and >>>more, even though they keep on doing it (until the end that is). I >>>don't think you could get that broader moral perspective in the >>>straight first person narration of the original book - you really >>>need to look at characters >>> >like > >>>Marron Shed and Asa in their grubby surroundings in order to >>>understand >>> >why > >>>they act like they do. >>> >>I think one of the best parts of Cook's writings is he uses normal >>people. His characters aren't the "I'll never fail" heroes, the >>souless villians, nor any other stock characters but normal people. >> >>One of my favorite scenes from Shadows Linger has to do with the >>murder of the second moneylender. The waitress (Lisa) was tough as >>nails in theory - willing and able to do whatever it took to get out >>of the wretched life she lived. Let's kill the moneylender and maybe >>some homeless folk this winter - in theory there was nothing she >>wouldn't do. >> >>In theory - but the first murder she was involved in shook her to the >>bone. OK, the circumstances of that killing were bad for her but even >>if it had happened the way she'd planned I think the reality of death, >>of murder, would have made an impression. She'd thought she was ready >>to do anything but death shook her - because she was just a normal >>person in a bad situation. She wasn't a blackhearted villian, just >>someone who didn't want to die poor. >> >>When normal people are the characters it's easy to fit inside their >>skin >>- which makes the book more plausible, more real. >> >>Richard >> >>====================================================================== >>= >> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, >> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. >> > > > >======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit ><http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sam Roberts <Sam.Roberts@apollogrp.edu> Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) David Drake <--> Glen Cook - DARKWAR SPOILERS Date: 31 Jan 2002 15:49:25 -0700 I finally got off my butt and procured some of his non-BC and Garrett books in the form of the Darkwar trilogy and granted, I'm only most of the way through the second novel, but it seems to me that Marika is that sort of character as well. We start with her as a "pup" and see how the destruction of her packstead starts her on the road to becoming something that is so far not quite a destructive megalomaniacal psychopath, but not too far off either. I just finished reading about the bloody vengeance she wreaked upon the meth who destroyed Maksche and the way she murdered her mentor and I'm amazed that I still sort of like her. I think it's because we get to follow her from her days as a pup and witness first hand the circumstances that make her what she is. Just another example of how Glen Cook writes in shades of gray rather than absolutes. Sam -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 10:07 PM Cook asks a unique question in several of his books. What turned a happy smiling child into a destructive megalomaniacal psychopath ? This comes up in the BC books, Dread Empire novels, and in Swordbearer. It's a psychological insight very few authors have. I'd like to see him trace a protagonist from childhood to the darkside. And I'll bet he outdoes Lucas. Lawrence Jenab wrote: >I really agree with that, Richard. Oddly enough, Cook's fantasy books >have more genuine human nature in them than a dozen books of the >supposed "psychological realism" school. > >Larry > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Richard Chilton" <rchilton@auracom.com> >To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com> >Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 1:32 PM >Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) David Drake <--> Glen Cook > > >>A Turner wrote: >> >>>SPOILERS (Shadows Linger) >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>I certainly haven't seen another fantasy writer who manages to change >>> >both > >>>form and characterization of the people narrating like Glen does in >>>the >>> >BC > >>>series. I'm just rereading Shadows Linger, and right from the start >>>of >>> >the > >>>second book you can see people changing. Raven becomes as morally >>>black >>> >as > >>>the Dominator and his creatures, all in order to protect Darling, >>>while Croaker and co. start to question what they're doing more and >>>more, even though they keep on doing it (until the end that is). I >>>don't think you could get that broader moral perspective in the >>>straight first person narration of the original book - you really >>>need to look at characters >>> >like > >>>Marron Shed and Asa in their grubby surroundings in order to >>>understand >>> >why > >>>they act like they do. >>> >>I think one of the best parts of Cook's writings is he uses normal >>people. His characters aren't the "I'll never fail" heroes, the >>souless villians, nor any other stock characters but normal people. >> >>One of my favorite scenes from Shadows Linger has to do with the >>murder of the second moneylender. The waitress (Lisa) was tough as >>nails in theory - willing and able to do whatever it took to get out >>of the wretched life she lived. Let's kill the moneylender and maybe >>some homeless folk this winter - in theory there was nothing she >>wouldn't do. >> >>In theory - but the first murder she was involved in shook her to the >>bone. OK, the circumstances of that killing were bad for her but even >>if it had happened the way she'd planned I think the reality of death, >>of murder, would have made an impression. She'd thought she was ready >>to do anything but death shook her - because she was just a normal >>person in a bad situation. She wasn't a blackhearted villian, just >>someone who didn't want to die poor. >> >>When normal people are the characters it's easy to fit inside their >>skin >>- which makes the book more plausible, more real. >> >>Richard >> >>====================================================================== >>= >> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, >> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. >> > > > >======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit ><http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Llaneza <maserati@speakeasy.net> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) trilogies III Date: 31 Jan 2002 21:30:19 -0800 both of you take this off-list right now I'm talking to PrimalChrome and Craig Dutton primarily, but I'd like to head off a flamewar - this list doesn't have enough traffic to support a flamewar. PrimalChrome wrote: >Sorry, you demonstrated nothing more than a piss-poor attempt at being an >annoyance. > >An apt comparison to your 'extreme example' would be my saying that I do not >enjoy opera. Then in order to demonstrate what I do not like about opera I >would have a five year old sing his favorite barney song for a few hours at >the top of her lungs. There is no comparison, it is only a infantile >attempt at gathering attention to one's self. > >The probable reason you find epic tales to be 'displeasing' or 'annoying' is >because you're a classic example of the spoon-fed television programmed >american. Your patience and ability to absorb is limited to the now of >immediate gratification rather than any kind of ability or desire to >appreciate something of any real length or worth. > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Horky, Roger" <rhorky@trinity.edu> >To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com> >Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:09 PM >Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) trilogies III > > >>You express displeasure at my unitary narrative broken up into three >>parts--so do I. We are in agreement. Just thought I'd create an extreme >>example to demonstrate precisely WHY they're so annoying. Thank you for >>demonstrating my point. >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: PrimalChrome [mailto:chrome@wwisp.com] >>Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 9:01 AM >>To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com >>Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) trilogies III >> >> >>This is a childish comparison as you well know. Please keep such bullshit >>posts to your Harry Potter mailing list. >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Horky, Roger" <rhorky@trinity.edu> >>To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com> >>Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 8:36 AM >>Subject: (glencook-fans) trilogies III >> >> >>>Those of you in the 'one stories, three parts' school will no doubt see >>>nothing unusual in this message; to those of you who, like me, want each >>>work to stand alone, I apologise. >>> >> >> >>======================================================================= >> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, >> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. >> >>======================================================================= >> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, >> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. >> > > >======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Llaneza <maserati@speakeasy.net> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) David Drake <--> Glen Cook - DARKWAR SPOILERS Date: 31 Jan 2002 21:31:27 -0800 Now that you mention it, that must be why I like the Darkwar series so much. Besides interesting non-human protagonists and a deliciously dark flavor to the whole series. Sam Roberts wrote: >I finally got off my butt and procured some of his non-BC and Garrett books >in the form of the Darkwar trilogy and granted, I'm only most of the way >through the second novel, but it seems to me that Marika is that sort of >character as well. We start with her as a "pup" and see how the destruction >of her packstead starts her on the road to becoming something that is so far >not quite a destructive megalomaniacal psychopath, but not too far off >either. I just finished reading about the bloody vengeance she wreaked upon >the meth who destroyed Maksche and the way she murdered her mentor and I'm >amazed that I still sort of like her. I think it's because we get to follow >her from her days as a pup and witness first hand the circumstances that >make her what she is. Just another example of how Glen Cook writes in >shades of gray rather than absolutes. > >Sam > >-----Original Message----- >From: Michael Llaneza [mailto:maserati@speakeasy.net] >Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 10:07 PM >To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) David Drake <--> Glen Cook > > >Cook asks a unique question in several of his books. What turned a happy >smiling child into a destructive megalomaniacal psychopath ? This comes >up in the BC books, Dread Empire novels, and in Swordbearer. > >It's a psychological insight very few authors have. I'd like to see him >trace a protagonist from childhood to the darkside. And I'll bet he >outdoes Lucas. > >Lawrence Jenab wrote: > >>I really agree with that, Richard. Oddly enough, Cook's fantasy books >>have more genuine human nature in them than a dozen books of the >>supposed "psychological realism" school. >> >>Larry >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Richard Chilton" <rchilton@auracom.com> >>To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com> >>Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 1:32 PM >>Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) David Drake <--> Glen Cook >> >> >>>A Turner wrote: >>> >>>>SPOILERS (Shadows Linger) >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>I certainly haven't seen another fantasy writer who manages to change >>>> >>both >> >>>>form and characterization of the people narrating like Glen does in >>>>the >>>> >>BC >> >>>>series. I'm just rereading Shadows Linger, and right from the start >>>>of >>>> >>the >> >>>>second book you can see people changing. Raven becomes as morally >>>>black >>>> >>as >> >>>>the Dominator and his creatures, all in order to protect Darling, >>>>while Croaker and co. start to question what they're doing more and >>>>more, even though they keep on doing it (until the end that is). I >>>>don't think you could get that broader moral perspective in the >>>>straight first person narration of the original book - you really >>>>need to look at characters >>>> >>like >> >>>>Marron Shed and Asa in their grubby surroundings in order to >>>>understand >>>> >>why >> >>>>they act like they do. >>>> >>>I think one of the best parts of Cook's writings is he uses normal >>>people. His characters aren't the "I'll never fail" heroes, the >>>souless villians, nor any other stock characters but normal people. >>> >>>One of my favorite scenes from Shadows Linger has to do with the >>>murder of the second moneylender. The waitress (Lisa) was tough as >>>nails in theory - willing and able to do whatever it took to get out >>>of the wretched life she lived. Let's kill the moneylender and maybe >>>some homeless folk this winter - in theory there was nothing she >>>wouldn't do. >>> >>>In theory - but the first murder she was involved in shook her to the >>>bone. OK, the circumstances of that killing were bad for her but even >>>if it had happened the way she'd planned I think the reality of death, >>>of murder, would have made an impression. She'd thought she was ready >>>to do anything but death shook her - because she was just a normal >>>person in a bad situation. She wasn't a blackhearted villian, just >>>someone who didn't want to die poor. >>> >>>When normal people are the characters it's easy to fit inside their >>>skin >>>- which makes the book more plausible, more real. >>> >>>Richard >>> >>>====================================================================== >>>= >>>To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, >>>visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. >>> >> >> >>======================================================================= >>To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit >><http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. >> >> > > > >======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit ><http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > >======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > >======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > >======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>. > > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.