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From: Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Monthly Mailing List Update
Date: 01 Nov 2000 22:22:37 -0700
The October mail archive has been posted.
This mailing list is sponsored by The Glen Cook Fan Page at:
<http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/>.
The mailing list archives and instructions of how to subscribe or
unsubscribe can be found at:
<http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
The mailing list FAQ can be found at:
<http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/Mail/glencook-fans-FAQ.txt>.
A mailing list exclusive Glen Cook Bibliography can be found at:
<http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GCBiblio.txt>.
In Glen Cook news, Glen says the name of the next Garrett novel is something
like "Deadly Lead Skys." (ICon 2000)
--
Eric Herrmann
<shpshftr@xmission.com>
<owner-glencook-fans@xmission.com>
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From: "Richard Gruver" <richgru@att.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Monthly Mailing List Update
Date: 02 Nov 2000 21:47:47 -0800
Did this list die or something? I haven't gotten anything from it in my mail
box in so long, I joined again because I thought I had been dropped. Did
everyone lose interest all of a sudden?
Richard Gruver
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From: "David George" <dsgeorge@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Monthly Mailing List Update
Date: 02 Nov 2000 21:53:16 -0600
It's a hurricane, man. When it's blowing up, it fills your inbox in a big
hurry.
Then nothing. Later, another blow.
You are not crazy. This is not the first lull. That's just this list.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2000 11:47 PM
> Did this list die or something? I haven't gotten anything from it in my
mail
> box in so long, I joined again because I thought I had been dropped. Did
> everyone lose interest all of a sudden?
> Richard Gruver
>
>
> =======================================================================
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> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
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From: "Vonder Haar, Peter C." <Peter.VonderHaar@bakerhughes.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Monthly Mailing List Update
Date: 02 Nov 2000 23:10:23 -0600
I can't speak for everyone, but I just finished Martin's _A Clash of Kings_
and am eagerly, and somewhat sheepishly, awaiting _A Storm of Swords_.
Pete
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Gruver [mailto:richgru@att.net]
> Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2000 11:48 PM
> To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Monthly Mailing List Update
>
>
> Did this list die or something? I haven't gotten anything
> from it in my mail
> box in so long, I joined again because I thought I had been
> dropped. Did
> everyone lose interest all of a sudden?
> Richard Gruver
>
>
> ==============================================================
> =========
> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
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From: Aaron Contreras <Aaron.Contreras@sierra.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Monthly Mailing List Update
Date: 02 Nov 2000 23:19:18 -0800
_A Storm of Swords_ is keeping it real. Bought it at 12:00 on Wednesday,
finished it at 11:30 Thursday. Can't wait for the next one - be interesting
how the story will change since he is letting the timeline advance five
years in between ASOS and the next book.
Aaron
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2000 9:10 PM
I can't speak for everyone, but I just finished Martin's _A Clash of Kings_
and am eagerly, and somewhat sheepishly, awaiting _A Storm of Swords_.
Pete
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Gruver [mailto:richgru@att.net]
> Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2000 11:48 PM
> To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Monthly Mailing List Update
>
>
> Did this list die or something? I haven't gotten anything
> from it in my mail
> box in so long, I joined again because I thought I had been
> dropped. Did
> everyone lose interest all of a sudden?
> Richard Gruver
>
>
> ==============================================================
> =========
> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Tim McDowell" <mcdowelt@izzyspizza.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) cover art for 'Glittering Stone' vol 1 & 2
Date: 03 Nov 2000 07:31:35 -0800
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C04568.18640FA0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greetings Folks;
Just a breif note to let you know about the cover art on the jackets =
of the two new collections (?) of Mr. Cook's work. Volume 1 has the =
first 2 books of the 'Glittering Stone' and Volume 2 has the last 2 =
books of the 'Glittering Stone'.
The entire picture of the art work was found by Eric and is at:
http://www.donatoart.com/alexg.html
What they have done is to split the painting vertically. The left =
half of the painting is shown on the cover of Volume 2 and the right =
half is on Volume 1. On the back of the dust jacket is a small copy of =
the entire painting.=20
Personally, I had never thought of anyone in the company as looking =
like Alexander the Great, but it is an excellent painting.
Have a good day everybody.
Tim
------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C04568.18640FA0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Greetings =
Folks;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Just a breif note to =
let you=20
know about the cover art on the jackets of the two new collections (?) =
of Mr.=20
Cook's work. Volume 1 has the first 2 books of the 'Glittering Stone' =
and Volume=20
2 has the last 2 books of the 'Glittering Stone'.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> The entire picture =
of the art=20
work was found by Eric and is at:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.donatoart.com/alexg.html">http://www.donatoart.com/ale=
xg.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> What they have done =
is to split=20
the painting vertically. The left half of the painting is shown on the =
cover of=20
Volume 2 and the right half is on Volume 1. On the back of the =
dust=20
jacket is a small copy of the entire painting. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Personally, I had =
never thought=20
of anyone in the company as looking like Alexander the Great, but =
it is an=20
excellent painting.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Have a good day=20
everybody.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Tim</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C04568.18640FA0--
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Steve Harris <harrissg@SLU.EDU>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) comparison, Cook & Martin
Date: 03 Nov 2000 14:48:15 -0500
Hi, all,
Since Martin's _Song of Ice and Fire_ has been raised again, I thought
I'd chime in with my ideas on comparison of that with the Black Company saga.
I, too, am just finishing the second of the Martin series; I find myself
drawn to that series in much the same was as to the Black Company. Why?
I think it's the realism of personal motivations. This is not "high
fantasy" (say, like Tad Willaimson or Robert Jordan--whom I also like),
where people are mostly Figures of Good or Figures of Evil. Instead, we
have complex personality types, in which we can admire the vitality and
inventiveness and sense of humor of a Soul Catcher or a Jamie
Kingslayer, even in spite of the palpable evil in their souls. And we
can root enthusiastically for the "good guys" Lady or Tyrion the Imp,
while not losing sight of the darkness that is in them, even so. (That,
I think is an especially apt comparison.) And in the minor characters,
we have the essential brutality--accepted as part of the general
societal norms--that informs the acts of even the good guys' henchmen,
whether the ranks of the Black Company or the men-at-arms of any of the
several sides in _Song of Ice and Fire_.
Cook's has been called fantasy noir. Martin's is not quite so
gritty--because most of it is centered on noble/royal characters--but
you still get some of the same feel as from the opening scene in "Monty
Python and the Holy Grail": *everyone* (except the king) is covered in
shit; that's just the way the world is.
Steve
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Igor Filippov <igor@osc.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) comparison, Cook & Martin
Date: 03 Nov 2000 15:34:09 -0500 (EST)
I couldn't help myself when I saw reference to Robert Jordan :)
For me, when characters are either sparkling-white good or
bad bad bad BAD evil, it's either annoying or hypocritical, sometimes
both. Robert Jordan's characters are threefold so (sorry, Steve !)
Glen Cook's books are honest about that aspect of human psychology,
that's why I enjoy reading them. I don't understand how pulp
fiction like "Wheel of Time" could ever make a bestseller, I felt
like I was being brainwashed when I read the first few books.
By the way, I haven't seen anybody mentioned "Passage at arms" here,
I think this book has been overlooked by many. After I struggled
through first couple of pages, I couldn't put it away for a minute !
I wonder if Mr. Cook has any kind of Navy experience, his description
of life on a space "u-boat" sounds amazingly realistic !
Steve, I hope you won't take personally my remark about Robert Jordan :)
Igor
On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Steve Harris wrote:
> Hi, all,
>
> Since Martin's _Song of Ice and Fire_ has been raised again, I thought
> I'd chime in with my ideas on comparison of that with the Black Company saga.
>
> I, too, am just finishing the second of the Martin series; I find myself
> drawn to that series in much the same was as to the Black Company. Why?
>
> I think it's the realism of personal motivations. This is not "high
> fantasy" (say, like Tad Willaimson or Robert Jordan--whom I also like),
> where people are mostly Figures of Good or Figures of Evil. Instead, we
> have complex personality types, in which we can admire the vitality and
> inventiveness and sense of humor of a Soul Catcher or a Jamie
> Kingslayer, even in spite of the palpable evil in their souls. And we
> can root enthusiastically for the "good guys" Lady or Tyrion the Imp,
> while not losing sight of the darkness that is in them, even so. (That,
> I think is an especially apt comparison.) And in the minor characters,
> we have the essential brutality--accepted as part of the general
> societal norms--that informs the acts of even the good guys' henchmen,
> whether the ranks of the Black Company or the men-at-arms of any of the
> several sides in _Song of Ice and Fire_.
>
> Cook's has been called fantasy noir. Martin's is not quite so
> gritty--because most of it is centered on noble/royal characters--but
> you still get some of the same feel as from the opening scene in "Monty
> Python and the Holy Grail": *everyone* (except the king) is covered in
> shit; that's just the way the world is.
>
> Steve
>
> =======================================================================
> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Steve Harris <harrissg@SLU.EDU>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) comparison, Cook & Martin
Date: 03 Nov 2000 15:36:11 -0600
Igor,
"when characters are either sparkling-white good or
bad bad bad BAD evil, it's either annoying or hypocritical"
That's what High Fantasy is. And where would Cook (or Martin) be
without Tolkien, the modern-day (post-WW2) originator of the genre, who
wrote only High Fantasy? High Fantasy has its important developmental
themes, such as the creation ("subcreation", as Tolkien puts it) of a a
richly imagined world, though one done in Very Pure Colors, very little
grey or washed-out; then it's the interplay of Important Moral Forces
(Good vs. Evil, Bravery vs. Complaisance, Forthrightness vs. Willful
Ignorance, etc.) that stirs the imagination. There's no hypocricy about
it--no one is saying "Hey, I'm a Frodo Baggins"--it's just drawing in
larger-than-life proportions. Annoying? That's a matter of taste--de
gustibus non disputandam.
Tolkien (and also Williamson) plays up the importance of the Little Guy
putting shoulder to wheel and Doing What Must Be Done. Jordan plays out
Naive Good People taking on Leadership (and losing their naivete along
the way, as I read it). Hard to make these themes so transparent in a
gritty real world, where the naive never get the opportunity to lead
(and they'd be quickly shunted aside if they were), and the little guys
almost never have the solitary and most important job to do.
Sleepy takes on Leadership, but she moves into it the hard way (and
without *any* naivete), by moving up the ranks from spear-carrier to
guerilla organizer to strategist--and there she over-reaches herself and
brings ruination upon her followers, because she's *not* the proper
war-leader of the BC. And so Cook gives us realism, including failure,
while Jordan, for instance, gives us unbridled success in his trio
(quartet?) of leaders. So we read Cook or Martin for How to
Succeed/Fail in a Really Nasty World; we read (well, I read) Tolkien or
Williamson or Jordan for How to Succeed Because Your Cause Is Just.
It's not the same goal on the part of the writer or the reader.
Steve
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Steve Harris <harrissg@SLU.EDU>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) cover art for 'Glittering Stone' vol 1 & 2
Date: 03 Nov 2000 15:51:40 -0600
Tim,
Ummm, that painting...
"Hey, look! The enemy general's not wearing a helmet! Everyone throw
something at him!"
Well, I guess it wouldn't be Heroic Art if we couldn't look at his Noble Profile.
Steve
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: WinB@aol.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) cover art for 'Glittering Stone' vol 1 & 2
Date: 03 Nov 2000 17:12:05 EST
Heroic Art has never been an artform steeped in accuracy. You can only take
warrior-maidens with chain-mail bras and bare midriffs so far.
Win
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Igor Filippov <igor@osc.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) comparison, Cook & Martin
Date: 03 Nov 2000 17:40:00 -0500 (EST)
Steve,
This is an interesting angle, but personally I always considered
Tolkien to be a very realistic type of writer - in his own way, granted.
Any success Tolkien's heroes achieve comes only as a result of
hard work, sweat and blood. And he does a wonderful job of showing
the emotional and moral growth of his characters when countered by
the realities of the "big world". Frodo and Sam, Pippin and Merry
who returned to Hobbiton are not the same people that left it.
Moreover, Sauron himself wasn't born evil either - and Tolkien
did point that out unambiguously.
There's absolutely none of that nonsense I see so often about
a hero "who has nothing but the purity of heart that conquered
everything" in some of the bestsellers which titles I can't be
bothered to remember. It seems like for the characters of that type
everything falls together with no effort whatsoever on their part.
Well, maybe for some people it does, it certainly was not the case
with life as I see it :)
Igor
On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Steve Harris wrote:
> Igor,
>
> "when characters are either sparkling-white good or
> bad bad bad BAD evil, it's either annoying or hypocritical"
>
> That's what High Fantasy is. And where would Cook (or Martin) be
> without Tolkien, the modern-day (post-WW2) originator of the genre, who
> wrote only High Fantasy? High Fantasy has its important developmental
> themes, such as the creation ("subcreation", as Tolkien puts it) of a a
> richly imagined world, though one done in Very Pure Colors, very little
> grey or washed-out; then it's the interplay of Important Moral Forces
> (Good vs. Evil, Bravery vs. Complaisance, Forthrightness vs. Willful
> Ignorance, etc.) that stirs the imagination. There's no hypocricy about
> it--no one is saying "Hey, I'm a Frodo Baggins"--it's just drawing in
> larger-than-life proportions. Annoying? That's a matter of taste--de
> gustibus non disputandam.
>
> Tolkien (and also Williamson) plays up the importance of the Little Guy
> putting shoulder to wheel and Doing What Must Be Done. Jordan plays out
> Naive Good People taking on Leadership (and losing their naivete along
> the way, as I read it). Hard to make these themes so transparent in a
> gritty real world, where the naive never get the opportunity to lead
> (and they'd be quickly shunted aside if they were), and the little guys
> almost never have the solitary and most important job to do.
>
> Sleepy takes on Leadership, but she moves into it the hard way (and
> without *any* naivete), by moving up the ranks from spear-carrier to
> guerilla organizer to strategist--and there she over-reaches herself and
> brings ruination upon her followers, because she's *not* the proper
> war-leader of the BC. And so Cook gives us realism, including failure,
> while Jordan, for instance, gives us unbridled success in his trio
> (quartet?) of leaders. So we read Cook or Martin for How to
> Succeed/Fail in a Really Nasty World; we read (well, I read) Tolkien or
> Williamson or Jordan for How to Succeed Because Your Cause Is Just.
> It's not the same goal on the part of the writer or the reader.
>
> Steve
>
> =======================================================================
> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
=======================================================================
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visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Steve Harris <harrissg@SLU.EDU>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) comparison, Cook & Martin
Date: 03 Nov 2000 17:33:48 -0600
Igor,
I didn't say that characters can't develop and grow in High
Fantasy--just that they are pretty well unalloyed in morality, either
Good or Evil. Gollum, of course, is quite clearly alloyed of two
metals--but they don't intermix (as they do in Lady or Soul Catcher or
Goblin), they come as virutally separate personalities. And even so,
Gollum is the least High-Fantasay-type character in Tolkien.
(Boromir, however is another matter: He *is* intermixed, in a way that
Gollum isn't. And yet, he still seems to me to fit the prescriptions
for High Fantasy; maybe because he's a recognized Type, the Good Man
with Too Much Pride and Ego?)
That's not all there is to the distinguishment of High Fantasy from
other fantasy; there's a good deal to be found in Leguin's _Languages of
the Night_, where she points out that how the characters speak is pretty
much a dead give-away. Can you imagine Croaker speaking in Frodo's
voice? No one in the BC would listen to him! Or Gandalf using
One-Eye's habits of speech? He'd never have been admitted to the White
Council :) This is part of what makes _Bored of the Rings_ such fun parody.
It's not actually the formality of speech I'm referring to here, but the
content of what people choose to talk about (i.e., the author chooses
for us to overhear). Lady speaks of her low opinions of everybody else
and her general cynism, while Croaker goes on about his romantic
fantasies for Lady or shares his very colorful frustrations with trying
to Captain a couple of wizards with egos. But you never hear a word
from Strider on the worthlessness of those he's protecting or the
frailties of those he's trying to work with--it just wouldn't be fitting
to find that kind of consideration in the work.
Steve
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "David George" <dsgeorge@mindspring.com>
Subject: Passage At Arms (was:Re: (glencook-fans) comparison, Cook & Martin)
Date: 03 Nov 2000 17:45:51 -0600
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 2:34 PM
(snip)
> I wonder if Mr. Cook has any kind of Navy experience, his description
> of life on a space "u-boat" sounds amazingly realistic !
(snip)
GC served on a destroyer, among other places. Which makes even more sense
after you read Heirs of Babylon. Details should be in the faq and also in
the interviews on the web site.
I agree with you about Passage, great read. In part, the quality of Passage
at Arms was what made it harder for me to get into the Starfishers
trilogy--it is good, especially once you get farther into it, but I found it
much easier to get into Passage. The hardest part about Starfishers for me
was probably the first 50 to 100 pages of the first book. I was reading it
wondering who is this guy and what did he do with Glen Cook? I put it aside
for a few years and then picked it up later and thought "Oh, wait, now I see
it, this is not bad." The second and third books are better still. But
Passage is the best of the bunch.
DG
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Tim McDowell" <mcdowelt@izzyspizza.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) cover art for 'Glittering Stone' vol 1 & 2
Date: 03 Nov 2000 17:06:22 -0800
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 2:12 PM
> Heroic Art has never been an artform steeped in accuracy. You can only
take
> warrior-maidens with chain-mail bras and bare midriffs so far.
>
> Win
And as 'Cerberus the Earth-Pig' is once rumoured to have said; " If you
quit wearing that thing, they may heal."
Tim
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Tim McDowell" <mcdowelt@izzyspizza.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) comparison, Cook & Martin
Date: 03 Nov 2000 17:24:26 -0800
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 2:40 PM
Frodo and Sam, Pippin and Merry
> who returned to Hobbiton are not the same people that left it.
> Moreover, Sauron himself wasn't born evil either - and Tolkien
> did point that out unambiguously.
I think that you maybe referring to Saruman who started out as 'the
White' was seduced by Sauron while using the seeing stone. I think the stone
was a 'palantir'. Saurman then became 'the many-colored' and eventually fell
from power and was killed in the Shire by WormTongue. His spirit was then
denied access to the "WEST' .
Sauron, however, was a nasty one from the get-go. He was one of the
lesser spirits of the Valar. And able to shape shift to a wolf. He was 'the
Lieutenant' for Morgorth who was the biggest baddest nastiest being that
ever tried to take over a world.
Atleast according to J.R.R.T. He detailed his earlier history of
Middle-Earth in the 'Simarailion'. Every thing you wanted to know , but
didn't how to ask.
Tim
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Igor Filippov <igor@osc.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) comparison, Cook & Martin
Date: 04 Nov 2000 02:00:54 -0500 (EST)
Tim,
For some reason I'm sure I remember that Gandalf said to Frodo once
"Even Sauron wasn't born a villain", or something like that.
I'll try to look up the exact quote...
Igor
On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Tim McDowell wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Igor Filippov <igor@osc.edu>
> To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>
> Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 2:40 PM
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) comparison, Cook & Martin
>
>
> Frodo and Sam, Pippin and Merry
> > who returned to Hobbiton are not the same people that left it.
> > Moreover, Sauron himself wasn't born evil either - and Tolkien
> > did point that out unambiguously.
>
> I think that you maybe referring to Saruman who started out as 'the
> White' was seduced by Sauron while using the seeing stone. I think the stone
> was a 'palantir'. Saurman then became 'the many-colored' and eventually fell
> from power and was killed in the Shire by WormTongue. His spirit was then
> denied access to the "WEST' .
> Sauron, however, was a nasty one from the get-go. He was one of the
> lesser spirits of the Valar. And able to shape shift to a wolf. He was 'the
> Lieutenant' for Morgorth who was the biggest baddest nastiest being that
> ever tried to take over a world.
> Atleast according to J.R.R.T. He detailed his earlier history of
> Middle-Earth in the 'Simarailion'. Every thing you wanted to know , but
> didn't how to ask.
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> =======================================================================
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From: Igor Filippov <igor@osc.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) comparison, Cook & Martin
Date: 04 Nov 2000 02:09:45 -0500 (EST)
Steve,
There's no argument about "Lord of Rings" being a Great Book,
I treasure Tolkien among the three greatest sf/fantasy masters there are
(guess who the other two are ? :) - Cook and Zelazny - in
my personal universe anyway :))) );
my argument was about Robert Jordan and the likes of him...
I would never put Jordan in the same sentence with Tolkien...
Oops, I just did...Just shows how futile my arguments are :)
Igor
On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Steve Harris wrote:
> Igor,
>
> I didn't say that characters can't develop and grow in High
> Fantasy--just that they are pretty well unalloyed in morality, either
> Good or Evil. Gollum, of course, is quite clearly alloyed of two
> metals--but they don't intermix (as they do in Lady or Soul Catcher or
> Goblin), they come as virutally separate personalities. And even so,
> Gollum is the least High-Fantasay-type character in Tolkien.
>
> (Boromir, however is another matter: He *is* intermixed, in a way that
> Gollum isn't. And yet, he still seems to me to fit the prescriptions
> for High Fantasy; maybe because he's a recognized Type, the Good Man
> with Too Much Pride and Ego?)
>
> That's not all there is to the distinguishment of High Fantasy from
> other fantasy; there's a good deal to be found in Leguin's _Languages of
> the Night_, where she points out that how the characters speak is pretty
> much a dead give-away. Can you imagine Croaker speaking in Frodo's
> voice? No one in the BC would listen to him! Or Gandalf using
> One-Eye's habits of speech? He'd never have been admitted to the White
> Council :) This is part of what makes _Bored of the Rings_ such fun parody.
>
> It's not actually the formality of speech I'm referring to here, but the
> content of what people choose to talk about (i.e., the author chooses
> for us to overhear). Lady speaks of her low opinions of everybody else
> and her general cynism, while Croaker goes on about his romantic
> fantasies for Lady or shares his very colorful frustrations with trying
> to Captain a couple of wizards with egos. But you never hear a word
> from Strider on the worthlessness of those he's protecting or the
> frailties of those he's trying to work with--it just wouldn't be fitting
> to find that kind of consideration in the work.
>
> Steve
>
> =======================================================================
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From: Igor Filippov <igor@osc.edu>
Subject: Re: Passage At Arms (was:Re: (glencook-fans) comparison, Cook &
Date: 04 Nov 2000 02:15:59 -0500 (EST)
Thank you, David, I didn't know that !
All I remembered was that Mr. Cook worked for GM assembling trucks or
something... Sorry for asking a question that was already answered
in the FAQ :)
Igor
On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, David George wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Igor Filippov <igor@osc.edu>
> To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>
> Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 2:34 PM
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) comparison, Cook & Martin
>
>
> (snip)
>
> > I wonder if Mr. Cook has any kind of Navy experience, his description
> > of life on a space "u-boat" sounds amazingly realistic !
>
> (snip)
>
> GC served on a destroyer, among other places. Which makes even more sense
> after you read Heirs of Babylon. Details should be in the faq and also in
> the interviews on the web site.
>
> I agree with you about Passage, great read. In part, the quality of Passage
> at Arms was what made it harder for me to get into the Starfishers
> trilogy--it is good, especially once you get farther into it, but I found it
> much easier to get into Passage. The hardest part about Starfishers for me
> was probably the first 50 to 100 pages of the first book. I was reading it
> wondering who is this guy and what did he do with Glen Cook? I put it aside
> for a few years and then picked it up later and thought "Oh, wait, now I see
> it, this is not bad." The second and third books are better still. But
> Passage is the best of the bunch.
>
> DG
>
>
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From: "Marcin Welnicki" <szyderca@poczta.onet.pl>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Wizards in the Black Company saga
Date: 05 Nov 2000 16:35:11 +0100
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I would like to present a contest:
Who was the most ass-kicking wizard in the BC saga?
And saying a name isn't enought- u must say WHY you think that.
Marcin Mocker Welnicki
=20
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C04746.5DD1FEA0
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charset="iso-8859-2"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-2" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" size=3D2> I would like to =
present a=20
contest:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" =
size=3D2> Who was=20
the most ass-kicking wizard in the BC saga?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" size=3D2> And saying a =
name isn't=20
enought- u must say WHY you think that.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" size=3D2> =
Marcin Mocker=20
Welnicki</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE"=20
size=3D2> </FO=
NT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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From: "Tim McDowell" <mcdowelt@izzyspizza.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) comparison, Cook & Martin & some Tolkien
Date: 05 Nov 2000 11:52:05 -0800
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 11:00 PM
> Tim,
>
> For some reason I'm sure I remember that Gandalf said to Frodo once
> "Even Sauron wasn't born a villain", or something like that.
> I'll try to look up the exact quote...
>
> Igor
Please let me know. With the new 'Lord of the Rings' movie getting ready
to be released (i think some time in Dec.), I'm about to start re-re-re(etc)
reading 'The Hobbit' And the 'Lord of the Rings' trilogy again.
Just as soon as I finish my brand new copy of 'Soliders Live'.
Have a good day eveyone. I'll have my own observations about 'Soliders
Live' soon.
Tim
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From: Jay DeSimone <jdesimon1@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) comparison, Cook & Martin
Date: 05 Nov 2000 16:08:12 -0500
Igor Filippov wrote:
> I wonder if Mr. Cook has any kind of Navy experience, his description
> of life on a space "u-boat" sounds amazingly realistic !
I believe he was in the Navy, and that was when he started writing. He has become
more prolific after retiring, however.
Jay
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From: "David George" <dsgeorge@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Wizards in the Black Company saga
Date: 05 Nov 2000 15:54:57 -0600
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I'd say Lady and the reasons come late in her career. Sure, she's first =
tier (second perhaps only to Dominator) through the first series, but =
other than being an executive (consider the additional takings as =
"recruitment and hiring) she doesn't often toss off any big stuff.
Why she's the most effective is because she's the most adaptive and she =
finds ways to extend capability to multiple points of deployment. The =
first indication of her ability is the flying machines she deploys =
against Darling in the Plain. I consider that a piece of tactical =
genius comparable to the fighter tactics evolved by Claire Chenault in =
the Flying Tigers--adapting your attack to minimize your weakness and =
take advantage of those of your opponents (in the Flying Tigers, use the =
weight and strength of your airplane to dive away from faster, lighter =
foes). Darling was not prepared for carpets that could brave the null =
and she wasn't prepared for bombs that didn't need magic. Boom goes the =
windwhale.
Reinforcement of my opinion comes after her naming in the south. =
Consider the tube technology and the fireballs. These are basically her =
stuff, IIRC. The beauty of them is that any grunt can haul them around =
and deploy them. One wizard can toss one fireball, maybe rip off a =
string of them, maybe those fireballs are pretty big. One well-armed =
platoon can rip any wizard to shreds and there are times when they do =
so. This kind of advantage is exactly why the US military opens any =
conflict with an all-out attack on the enemy's anti-aircraft =
capabilities--one of the lessons learned in Vietnam: any fool, no matter =
his education, equipped with an advanced missile system can put your =
expensive aircraft into the rice paddies. And he can do it on the =
cheap.
DG
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Marcin Welnicki=20
To: glencook-fans@xmission.com=20
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 9:35 AM
Subject: (glencook-fans) Wizards in the Black Company saga
I would like to present a contest:
Who was the most ass-kicking wizard in the BC saga?
And saying a name isn't enought- u must say WHY you think that.
Marcin Mocker Welnicki
=20
------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C04740.BF0AA9C0
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charset="iso-8859-2"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-2" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I'd say Lady and the reasons come late in her =
career. =20
Sure, she's first tier (second perhaps only to Dominator) through the =
first=20
series, but other than being an executive (consider the additional =
takings as=20
"recruitment and hiring) she doesn't often toss off any big =
stuff.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Why she's the most effective is because she's the =
most=20
adaptive and she finds ways to extend capability to multiple points of=20
deployment. The first indication of her ability is the flying =
machines she=20
deploys against Darling in the Plain. I consider that a piece of =
tactical=20
genius comparable to the fighter tactics evolved by Claire Chenault =
in the=20
Flying Tigers--adapting your attack to minimize your weakness and take =
advantage=20
of those of your opponents (in the Flying Tigers, use the weight =
and=20
strength of your airplane to dive away from faster, lighter =
foes). =20
Darling was not prepared for carpets that could brave the null and she =
wasn't=20
prepared for bombs that didn't need magic. Boom goes the=20
windwhale.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Reinforcement of my opinion comes after her =
naming in the=20
south. Consider the tube technology and the fireballs. These =
are=20
basically her stuff, IIRC. The beauty of them is that any grunt =
can haul=20
them around and deploy them. One wizard can toss one fireball, =
maybe rip=20
off a string of them, maybe those fireballs are pretty big. =
</FONT><FONT=20
size=3D2>One well-armed platoon can rip any wizard to shreds and there =
are times=20
when they do so. This kind of advantage is exactly why the US =
military=20
opens any conflict with an all-out attack on the enemy's anti-aircraft=20
capabilities--one of the lessons learned in Vietnam: any fool, no matter =
his=20
education, equipped with an advanced missile system can put your =
expensive=20
aircraft into the rice paddies. And he can do it on the=20
cheap.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>DG</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:szyderca@poczta.onet.pl" =
title=3Dszyderca@poczta.onet.pl>Marcin=20
Welnicki</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:glencook-fans@xmission.com"=20
title=3Dglencook-fans@xmission.com>glencook-fans@xmission.com</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, November 05, 2000 =
9:35=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> (glencook-fans) =
Wizards in the=20
Black Company saga</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" size=3D2> I would like to =
present a=20
contest:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" =
size=3D2> Who was=20
the most ass-kicking wizard in the BC saga?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" size=3D2> And saying a =
name isn't=20
enought- u must say WHY you think that.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" size=3D2> =
Marcin Mocker=20
Welnicki</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE"=20
=
size=3D2> </FO=
NT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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From: Tyler Fain <hark_destiny@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) comparison, Cook & Martin & some Tolkien
Date: 05 Nov 2000 19:22:23 -0800 (PST)
I don't think the Lord of the Rings film is being
released until December 2001. I did see a trailer for
the new Dungeons & Dragons movie. Looks rather silly,
but I'll probably end up going anyway.
--
> Please let me know. With the new 'Lord of the
> Rings' movie getting ready
> to be released (i think some time in Dec.), I'm
> about to start re-re-re(etc)
> reading 'The Hobbit' And the 'Lord of the Rings'
> trilogy again.
>
> Just as soon as I finish my brand new copy of
> 'Soliders Live'.
>
> Have a good day eveyone. I'll have my own
> observations about 'Soliders
> Live' soon.
>
> Tim
>
>
>
>
>
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> of this list,
> visit
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__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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From: "Marcin Welnicki" <szyderca@poczta.onet.pl>
Subject: Odp: (glencook-fans) Wizards in the Black Company saga
Date: 06 Nov 2000 14:30:01 +0100
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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----- Original Message -----=20
From: David George=20
To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com=20
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Wizards in the Black Company saga
I'd say Lady and the reasons come late in her career. Sure, she's =
first tier (second perhaps only to Dominator) through the first series, =
but other than being an executive (consider the additional takings as =
"recruitment and hiring) she doesn't often toss off any big stuff.
=20
Why she's the most effective is because she's the most adaptive and =
she finds ways to extend capability to multiple points of deployment. =
The first indication of her ability is the flying machines she deploys =
against Darling in the Plain. I consider that a piece of tactical =
genius comparable to the fighter tactics evolved by Claire Chenault in =
the Flying Tigers--adapting your attack to minimize your weakness and =
take advantage of those of your opponents (in the Flying Tigers, use the =
weight and strength of your airplane to dive away from faster, lighter =
foes). Darling was not prepared for carpets that could brave the null =
and she wasn't prepared for bombs that didn't need magic. Boom goes the =
windwhale.
=20
Reinforcement of my opinion comes after her naming in the south. =
Consider the tube technology and the fireballs. These are basically her =
stuff, IIRC. The beauty of them is that any grunt can haul them around =
and deploy them. One wizard can toss one fireball, maybe rip off a =
string of them, maybe those fireballs are pretty big. One well-armed =
platoon can rip any wizard to shreds and there are times when they do =
so. This kind of advantage is exactly why the US military opens any =
conflict with an all-out attack on the enemy's anti-aircraft =
capabilities--one of the lessons learned in Vietnam: any fool, no matter =
his education, equipped with an advanced missile system can put your =
expensive aircraft into the rice paddies. And he can do it on the =
cheap.
DG
=20
Hehe- yuo forgot what happened in Mogaba's room in "Soldiers live"?
But I must admit she is one of the Greatest.
Mocker=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Marcin Welnicki=20
To: glencook-fans@xmission.com=20
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 9:35 AM
Subject: (glencook-fans) Wizards in the Black Company saga
I would like to present a contest:
Who was the most ass-kicking wizard in the BC saga?
And saying a name isn't enought- u must say WHY you think that.
Marcin Mocker Welnicki
=20
------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C047FE.0BB747C0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-2"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-2" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial ce">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial ce; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:dsgeorge@mindspring.com" =
title=3Ddsgeorge@mindspring.com>David=20
George</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial ce"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com"=20
=
title=3Dglencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com=
</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial ce"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, November 05, =
2000 10:54=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial ce"><B>Subject:</B> Re: (glencook-fans) =
Wizards=20
in the Black Company saga</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I'd say Lady and the reasons come late in her =
career. =20
Sure, she's first tier (second perhaps only to Dominator) through the =
first=20
series, but other than being an executive (consider the additional =
takings as=20
"recruitment and hiring) she doesn't often toss off any big=20
stuff.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Why she's the most effective is because she's the =
most=20
adaptive and she finds ways to extend capability to multiple points of =
deployment. The first indication of her ability is the flying =
machines=20
she deploys against Darling in the Plain. I consider that a =
piece of=20
tactical genius comparable to the fighter tactics evolved by=20
Claire Chenault in the Flying Tigers--adapting your attack to =
minimize=20
your weakness and take advantage of those of your opponents (in =
the=20
Flying Tigers, use the weight and strength of your airplane to =
dive away=20
from faster, lighter foes). Darling was not prepared for carpets =
that=20
could brave the null and she wasn't prepared for bombs that didn't =
need=20
magic. Boom goes the windwhale.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Reinforcement of my opinion comes after her =
naming in=20
the south. Consider the tube technology and the fireballs. =
These=20
are basically her stuff, IIRC. The beauty of them is that any =
grunt can=20
haul them around and deploy them. One wizard can toss one =
fireball,=20
maybe rip off a string of them, maybe those fireballs are pretty =
big. =20
</FONT><FONT size=3D2>One well-armed platoon can rip any wizard to =
shreds and=20
there are times when they do so. This kind of advantage is =
exactly why=20
the US military opens any conflict with an all-out attack on the =
enemy's=20
anti-aircraft capabilities--one of the lessons learned in Vietnam: any =
fool,=20
no matter his education, equipped with an advanced missile system can =
put your=20
expensive aircraft into the rice paddies. And he can do it on =
the=20
cheap.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>DG</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" size=3D2> Hehe- yuo forgot what =
happened in=20
Mogaba's room in "Soldiers live"?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" size=3D2> But I must admit she =
is one of=20
the Greatest.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" size=3D2> Mocker</FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:szyderca@poczta.onet.pl"=20
title=3Dszyderca@poczta.onet.pl>Marcin Welnicki</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:glencook-fans@xmission.com"=20
title=3Dglencook-fans@xmission.com>glencook-fans@xmission.com</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, November 05, =
2000 9:35=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> (glencook-fans) =
Wizards in the=20
Black Company saga</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" size=3D2> I would like to =
present a=20
contest:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" =
size=3D2> Who=20
was the most ass-kicking wizard in the BC saga?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" size=3D2> And saying =
a name isn't=20
enought- u must say WHY you think that.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" size=3D2> =
Marcin=20
Mocker Welnicki</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE"=20
=
size=3D2> </FO=
NT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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From: "Wright Frazier" <khelek@cioe.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Wizards in the Black Company saga
Date: 06 Nov 2000 08:54:57 -0500
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The Limper. =3D)
Ya just can't keep a good homocidal wizard who had their body carved up, =
mind raped over and over by the dominated & lady, body carved up some =
more, and then just left as ahead. But then he's back to get a wicker =
body, then a clay body, then finally as a big pile of goo after being =
put in a pot and boiled.
He didn't even die at the end. =3D) They had to toss his ass into =
another universe.
Wright Frazier
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Marcin Welnicki=20
To: glencook-fans@xmission.com=20
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 10:35 AM
Subject: (glencook-fans) Wizards in the Black Company saga
I would like to present a contest:
Who was the most ass-kicking wizard in the BC saga?
And saying a name isn't enought- u must say WHY you think that.
Marcin Mocker Welnicki
=20
------=_NextPart_000_00DE_01C047CF.3CD5C9A0
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charset="iso-8859-2"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-2">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The Limper. =3D)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ya just can't keep a good homocidal =
wizard who had=20
their body carved up, mind raped over and over by the dominated & =
lady, body=20
carved up some more, and then just left as ahead. But then he's =
back to=20
get a wicker body, then a clay body, then finally as a big pile of goo =
after=20
being put in a pot and boiled.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>He didn't even die at the end. =3D) =
They had to toss=20
his ass into another universe.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wright Frazier</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dszyderca@poczta.onet.pl =
href=3D"mailto:szyderca@poczta.onet.pl">Marcin=20
Welnicki</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dglencook-fans@xmission.com=20
=
href=3D"mailto:glencook-fans@xmission.com">glencook-fans@xmission.com</A>=
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, November 05, 2000 =
10:35=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> (glencook-fans) =
Wizards in the=20
Black Company saga</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" size=3D2> I would like to =
present a=20
contest:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" =
size=3D2> Who was=20
the most ass-kicking wizard in the BC saga?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" size=3D2> And saying a =
name isn't=20
enought- u must say WHY you think that.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" size=3D2> =
Marcin Mocker=20
Welnicki</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE"=20
=
size=3D2> </FO=
NT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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From: "Tim McDowell" <mcdowelt@izzyspizza.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) comparison, Cook & Martin & some Tolkien
Date: 06 Nov 2000 07:31:31 -0800
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 7:22 PM
> I don't think the Lord of the Rings film is being
> released until December 2001.
Your right! (again) Just went over to :
www.theonering.net
and looked at their information. There are 3 movies being produced and are
set to be released one a year. Starting during Xmas 2001, then Xmas 2002 and
the last Xmas 2003.
I've waited this long, I guess a few more years won't hurt too much.
Atleast there's something this year. I've heard that in early Dec. there's a
made for TV version of 'DUNE' to be shown on the Sci. Fi. channel. The clips
look pretty good.
Have a good one.
Tim
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From: "Joseph McGrath" <jomcgrath@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) comparison, Cook & Martin
Date: 05 Nov 2000 17:00:02 -0000
Even Morgoth or Melcor depending on (dialect (?)) High elven or
Valinorean...
was not evil from the get go. Tolkien alludes to the envy or fear factor
that precludes any beings fall from essential goodness. If they give in to
this fear and envy, it devoures it's own self so that there is nothing but
blackness left. And that is when they become real, true, evil dudes. This is
only my opinion but i've read Tolkien so much...
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2000 1:24 AM
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Igor Filippov <igor@osc.edu>
> To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>
> Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 2:40 PM
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) comparison, Cook & Martin
>
>
> Frodo and Sam, Pippin and Merry
> > who returned to Hobbiton are not the same people that left it.
> > Moreover, Sauron himself wasn't born evil either - and Tolkien
> > did point that out unambiguously.
>
> I think that you maybe referring to Saruman who started out as 'the
> White' was seduced by Sauron while using the seeing stone. I think the
stone
> was a 'palantir'. Saurman then became 'the many-colored' and eventually
fell
> from power and was killed in the Shire by WormTongue. His spirit was then
> denied access to the "WEST' .
> Sauron, however, was a nasty one from the get-go. He was one of the
> lesser spirits of the Valar. And able to shape shift to a wolf. He was
'the
> Lieutenant' for Morgorth who was the biggest baddest nastiest being that
> ever tried to take over a world.
> Atleast according to J.R.R.T. He detailed his earlier history of
> Middle-Earth in the 'Simarailion'. Every thing you wanted to know , but
> didn't how to ask.
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> =======================================================================
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From: schew@interzone.com (Steve Chew)
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) comparison, Cook & Martin
Date: 06 Nov 2000 14:33:25 -0500 (EST)
>
>> I wonder if Mr. Cook has any kind of Navy experience, his description
>> of life on a space "u-boat" sounds amazingly realistic !
>
>I believe he was in the Navy, and that was when he started writing. He
>has become more prolific after retiring, however.
>
I believe you're right about him being in the Navy, but he didn't
start writing until he was working for General Motors. I saw him speak
at AlbaCon:
Glen was interviewed by David Hartwell at the AlbaCon "extravaganza".
He talked about how he first got started writing. He used to work for
GM in the late '60s. His job at that time was "sitting waiting for a
phone to ring 11 hours per day." Since it didn't ring very often, he
read a ton of books. After a while he had read most of the "good"
sci-fi and was reading the bottom of the barrel. He said to himself,
"I can do better than this." He got out the company typewriter and
stationary and started writing. A couple years later he published
his first book.
Steve
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From: "Horky, Roger" <rhorky@trinity.edu>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Wizards in the Black Company saga
Date: 06 Nov 2000 15:24:53 -0600
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C04838.010A8910
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In re BC wizards' ass-kicking skills:
=20
The Lady by a good bit: she was always able to maintain control over =
the
Taken, implying she was more puissant than they (look, ma, I just used
"puissant" in a sentence!).
=20
Her best talent was her ability to "think outside the box" (look, ma, I =
just
a horribly stupid and meaningless business clich=E9 in a sentence!) and =
NOT to
rely on magic. Consider the example given earlier; her battle against
Darling on the Plain of Fear. The carpets and missile weapons she =
devised,
although magically powered, were designed to operate even without =
magic--or,
if you prefer, designed to operate specifically in a non-magic (the =
null)
environment.=20
=20
There was an issue of Cerebus the Aardvark in which a mighty wizard, =
Necross
the ha hah ha Mad is killed by a crossbow bolt fired by a frightened
peasant. His last words, spoken in sincere amazement, were, "what a =
time to
start operating on the mundane level."
=20
Few of the other wizards in the BC saga would even consider a =
non-magical
solution to a problem (indeed, knowing this really helps the
mundanes--consider=20
=20
SPOILER ALERT
*********
*********
******
******
******
*******
*******
********
****
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
the wizards from Khatovar who destroy their shadow gate because they
immediately go to the magical solution rather than develop a =
non-magical
response to the loss of their broomsticks (does anybody else see a
resemblance between their broomsticks and the transports crosses from
Darkwar? or are they just another carpet?).
=20
Also, success is a useful measure of skill--the Limper was bad-ass =
magically
but he kept screwing up. His major talents were perseverance and =
insanity.
He was prone to plan poorly and to react without thinking, and to allow =
his
personal issues to interfere with business.=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
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charset="iso-8859-2"
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-2">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D513142721-06112000>In re=20
BC wizards' ass-kicking skills:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D513142721-06112000>The=20
Lady by a good bit: she was always able to maintain control over the =
Taken,=20
implying she was more puissant than they (look, ma, I just used =
"puissant" in=20
a sentence!).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D513142721-06112000>Her=20
best talent was her ability to "think outside the box" (look, ma, I =
just a=20
horribly stupid and meaningless business clich=E9 in a sentence!) and =
NOT to rely=20
on magic. Consider the example given earlier; her battle against =
Darling on the=20
Plain of Fear. The carpets and missile weapons she devised, although =
magically=20
powered, were designed to operate even without magic--or, if you =
prefer,=20
designed to operate specifically in a non-magic (the null) environment. =
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D513142721-06112000>There=20
was an issue of Cerebus the Aardvark in which a mighty wizard, Necross =
the ha=20
hah ha Mad is killed by a crossbow bolt fired by a frightened peasant. =
His last=20
words, spoken in sincere amazement, were, "what a time to start =
operating on the=20
mundane level."</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000> Few of the other wizards in the BC =
saga would=20
even consider a non-magical solution to a problem (indeed, knowing this =
really=20
helps the mundanes--consider </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000>SPOILER ALERT</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000>*********</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000>*********</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000>******</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000>******</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000>******</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000>*******</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000>*******</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000>********</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000>****</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D513142721-06112000>the=20
wizards from Khatovar who destroy their shadow gate because they =
immediately go=20
to the magical solution rather than develop a non-magical response =
to the=20
loss of their broomsticks (does anybody else see a resemblance between =
their=20
broomsticks and the transports crosses from Darkwar? or are they just =
another=20
carpet?).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D513142721-06112000>Also,=20
success is a useful measure of skill--the Limper was bad-ass =
magically but=20
he kept screwing up. His major talents were perseverance and insanity. =
He was=20
prone to plan poorly and to react without thinking, and to allow his =
personal=20
issues to interfere with business. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
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From: "Marcin Welnicki" <szyderca@poczta.onet.pl>
Subject: Odp: (glencook-fans) Wizards in the Black Company saga
Date: 06 Nov 2000 23:21:56 +0100
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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charset="iso-8859-2"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Horky, Roger=20
To: 'glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com'=20
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 10:24 PM
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Wizards in the Black Company saga
In re BC wizards' ass-kicking skills:
=20
The Lady by a good bit: she was always able to maintain control over =
the Taken, implying she was more puissant than they (look, ma, I just =
used "puissant" in a sentence!).
Her best talent was her ability to "think outside the box" (look, ma, =
I just a horribly stupid and meaningless business clich=E9 in a =
sentence!) and NOT to rely on magic. Consider the example given earlier; =
her battle against Darling on the Plain of Fear. The carpets and missile =
weapons she devised, although magically powered, were designed to =
operate even without magic--or, if you prefer, designed to operate =
specifically in a non-magic (the null) environment.=20
=20
There was an issue of Cerebus the Aardvark in which a mighty wizard, =
Necross the ha hah ha Mad is killed by a crossbow bolt fired by a =
frightened peasant. His last words, spoken in sincere amazement, were, =
"what a time to start operating on the mundane level."
=20
Few of the other wizards in the BC saga would even consider a =
non-magical solution to a problem (indeed, knowing this really helps the =
mundanes--consider=20
=20
SPOILER ALERT
*********
*********
******
******
******
*******
*******
********
****
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
the wizards from Khatovar who destroy their shadow gate because they =
immediately go to the magical solution rather than develop a non-magical =
response to the loss of their broomsticks (does anybody else see a =
resemblance between their broomsticks and the transports crosses from =
Darkwar? or are they just another carpet?).
=20
Also, success is a useful measure of skill--the Limper was bad-ass =
magically but he kept screwing up. His major talents were perseverance =
and insanity. He was prone to plan poorly and to react without thinking, =
and to allow his personal issues to interfere with business.=20
=20
You know what I think? If I have to chose a wizard NOT using magic =
solutions I'll say the best of them is......(drums) Croker;)))) He kept =
staying alive even more than Limper, and got himself a pretty good deal =
wih Shivetya- it's an immortality....of a sort.
Martin Mocker Welnicki
=20
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial ce">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial ce; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:rhorky@trinity.edu" =
title=3Drhorky@trinity.edu>Horky, Roger</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial ce"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:'glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com'"=20
=
title=3Dglencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>'glencook-fans@lists.xmission.co=
m'</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial ce"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, November 06, =
2000 10:24=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial ce"><B>Subject:</B> RE: (glencook-fans) =
Wizards=20
in the Black Company saga</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D513142721-06112000>In=20
re BC wizards' ass-kicking skills:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D513142721-06112000>The=20
Lady by a good bit: she was always able to maintain control over the =
Taken,=20
implying she was more puissant than they (look, ma, I just used =
"puissant" in=20
a sentence!).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D513142721-06112000>Her=20
best talent was her ability to "think outside the box" (look, ma, I =
just a=20
horribly stupid and meaningless business clich=E9 in a sentence!) and =
NOT to=20
rely on magic. Consider the example given earlier; her battle against =
Darling=20
on the Plain of Fear. The carpets and missile weapons she devised, =
although=20
magically powered, were designed to operate even without magic--or, if =
you=20
prefer, designed to operate specifically in a non-magic (the null)=20
environment. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000>There was an issue of Cerebus the Aardvark =
in which a=20
mighty wizard, Necross the ha hah ha Mad is killed by a crossbow bolt =
fired by=20
a frightened peasant. His last words, spoken in sincere amazement, =
were, "what=20
a time to start operating on the mundane level."</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000> Few of the other wizards in the BC =
saga would=20
even consider a non-magical solution to a problem (indeed, knowing =
this really=20
helps the mundanes--consider </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000>SPOILER ALERT</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000>*********</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000>*********</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000>******</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000>******</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000>******</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000>*******</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000>*******</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000>********</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000>****</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D513142721-06112000>the=20
wizards from Khatovar who destroy their shadow gate because they =
immediately=20
go to the magical solution rather than develop a non-magical =
response to=20
the loss of their broomsticks (does anybody else see a resemblance =
between=20
their broomsticks and the transports crosses from Darkwar? or are they =
just=20
another carpet?).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000>Also, success is a useful measure of =
skill--the=20
Limper was bad-ass magically but he kept screwing up. His major =
talents were=20
perseverance and insanity. He was prone to plan poorly and to react =
without=20
thinking, and to allow his personal issues to interfere with business. =
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000></SPAN></FONT> <FONT face=3D"Arial CE" =
size=3D2>You=20
know what I think? If I have to chose a wizard NOT using magic =
solutions I'll=20
say the best of them is......(drums) Croker;)))) He kept staying alive =
even=20
more than Limper, and got himself a pretty good deal wih Shivetya- =
it's an=20
immortality....of a sort.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" size=3D2> Martin Mocker =
Welnicki</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D513142721-06112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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From: Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) ROC Cold Copper Tears
Date: 06 Nov 2000 19:48:09 -0700
Does someone have a ROC edition of Cold Copper Tears that they can send me
the ISBN number for?
Thanks,
--
Eric Herrmann
<shpshftr@xmission.com>
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From: "Joseph McGrath" <jomcgrath@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) ROC Cold Copper Tears
Date: 07 Nov 2000 12:46:59 -0000
Here Eric, It doesn't say roc anywhere that i can see on the book but i
don't think it was ever released as anything but a paperback ... Joe
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 2:48 AM
> Does someone have a ROC edition of Cold Copper Tears that they can send me
> the ISBN number for?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Eric Herrmann
> <shpshftr@xmission.com>
>
>
>
>
> =======================================================================
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From: "Joseph McGrath" <jomcgrath@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) ROC Cold Copper Tears
Date: 07 Nov 2000 12:41:51 -0000
Signet fantasy, New American Library, isbn# 0 - 451 - 15773 - 7
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 2:48 AM
> Does someone have a ROC edition of Cold Copper Tears that they can send me
> the ISBN number for?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Eric Herrmann
> <shpshftr@xmission.com>
>
>
>
>
> =======================================================================
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> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
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From: Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) ROC Cold Copper Tears
Date: 09 Nov 2000 11:12:08 -0700
on 11/7/00 5:46 AM, Joseph McGrath at jomcgrath@mediaone.net wrote:
> Here Eric, It doesn't say roc anywhere that i can see on the book but i
> don't think it was ever released as anything but a paperback ... Joe
> Signet fantasy, New American Library, isbn# 0 - 451 - 15773 - 7
The Garrett series was begun being published by Signet. That would include
"Sweet Silver Blues", "Bitter Gold Hearts", "Cold Copper Tears" and "Old Tin
Sorrows".
With "Red Iron Nights" (1991) the Garrett series was published by ROC. The
first four books were then re-issued by ROC.
I have the info for Sweet, Bitter, and Old. I don't happen to have the ISBN
for Cold and thought someone on the list might have it.
So, I'm looking for someone who has the Roc editions of Sweet, Bitter, Cold,
and Old.
Anyone?
--
Eric Herrmann
<shpshftr@xmission.com>
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From: "Tim McDowell" <mcdowelt@izzyspizza.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) first thoughts on 'Soldiers live'
Date: 13 Nov 2000 07:30:30 -0800
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C04D43.99FE47A0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greetings all.
Well, I've finished my first read through of "Soldiers Live". Good =
Lord! What a story Mr. Cook wrote. Now to start the first re-read. I'll =
have some things to say as I go through the book and take some notes =
this time.
First off.=20
Right up front we're told something that, as far as I know, has =
not happened before in the revealed Annals of the Black Company. =
Brothers who have had a peaceful, or atleast a non-combat, death.
When I read this I was filled with a dis-belief, and had to =
re-read this several times. It filled me with a sense of fore-boding. Of =
great and possibly terrible things to come.
And I wasn't disappointed for long!
More later. Have a great day.
Tim
------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C04D43.99FE47A0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Greetings =
all.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Well, I've finished =
my first=20
read through of "Soldiers Live". Good Lord! What a story Mr. Cook wrote. =
Now to=20
start the first re-read. I'll have some things to say as I go through =
the book=20
and take some notes this time.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> First off. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> =
Right up=20
front we're told something that, as far as I know, has not happened =
before in=20
the revealed Annals of the Black Company. Brothers who have had a =
peaceful, or=20
atleast a non-combat, death.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> =
When I read=20
this I was filled with a dis-belief, and had to re-read this several =
times. It=20
filled me with a sense of fore-boding. Of great and possibly terrible =
things to=20
come.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> And I wasn't =
disappointed for=20
long!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> More later. Have a =
great=20
day.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> =20
Tim</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Marcin Welnicki" <szyderca@poczta.onet.pl>
Subject: Odp: (glencook-fans) first thoughts on 'Soldiers live'
Date: 13 Nov 2000 20:47:00 +0100
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C04DB2.DEAA6400
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Tim McDowell=20
To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com=20
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2000 4:30 PM
Subject: (glencook-fans) first thoughts on 'Soldiers live'
Greetings all.
Well, I've finished my first read through of "Soldiers Live". Good =
Lord! What a story Mr. Cook wrote. Now to start the first re-read. I'll =
have some things to say as I go through the book and take some notes =
this time.
First off.=20
Right up front we're told something that, as far as I know, =
has not happened before in the revealed Annals of the Black Company. =
Brothers who have had a peaceful, or atleast a non-combat, death.
When I read this I was filled with a dis-belief, and had to =
re-read this several times. It filled me with a sense of fore-boding. Of =
great and possibly terrible things to come.
And I wasn't disappointed for long!
More later. Have a great day.
Tim
I must say that:
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
SPOILER GODDAMMIT!
The only thing I didnt like was the the deaths of One-Eye, Murgen, Doj =
etc. were very irrelevant. It was written for example "Murgen didnt make =
it" and thats all! He was one of the major characters and deserved an =
honorable death. And am I missing something? He did the same in the =
Dread Empire in "All Darkness Met". I ask you WHY?
Mocker
------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C04DB2.DEAA6400
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial ce">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial ce; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:mcdowelt@izzyspizza.com" =
title=3Dmcdowelt@izzyspizza.com>Tim=20
McDowell</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial ce"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com"=20
=
title=3Dglencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com=
</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial ce"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, November 13, =
2000 4:30=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial ce"><B>Subject:</B> (glencook-fans) =
first=20
thoughts on 'Soldiers live'</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Greetings =
all.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Well, I've =
finished my first=20
read through of "Soldiers Live". Good Lord! What a story Mr. Cook =
wrote. Now=20
to start the first re-read. I'll have some things to say as I go =
through the=20
book and take some notes this time.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> First off. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> =
Right up=20
front we're told something that, as far as I know, has not happened =
before in=20
the revealed Annals of the Black Company. Brothers who have had a =
peaceful, or=20
atleast a non-combat, death.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> =
When I read=20
this I was filled with a dis-belief, and had to re-read this several =
times. It=20
filled me with a sense of fore-boding. Of great and possibly terrible =
things=20
to come.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> And I wasn't =
disappointed for=20
long!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> More later. Have a =
great=20
day.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> =
Tim</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" size=3D2> I must say=20
that:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" size=3D2>S</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" size=3D2>P</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" size=3D2>O</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" size=3D2>I</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" size=3D2>L</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" size=3D2>E</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" size=3D2>R</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" size=3D2>SPOILER GODDAMMIT!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" size=3D2>The only thing I didnt like was =
the the=20
deaths of One-Eye, Murgen, Doj etc. were very irrelevant. It was =
written for=20
example "Murgen didnt make it" and thats all! He was one of the major=20
characters and deserved an honorable death. And am I missing =
something? He did=20
the same in the Dread Empire in "All Darkness Met". I ask you=20
WHY?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" size=3D2> Mocker</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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From: Stacey Harris <harrissg@SLU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 13 Nov 2000 16:27:11 -0600
Mocker,
Spoiler Space
.
\.
.
.
;
;
,.
',
',
',
',
',
',
;',
;,
;',
;',
;',
'
;
',
You ask, with respect to the various off-stage deaths, "Why?"
I think, to write Finis to the Annals. To say, "That's all, goddammit!
It's over." That is how I read it. And when I asked Glen if I was
correct in reading it as the intended End, he said I was.
But he also said he expects to be persuaded to write more--just not in
the same (almost) linear tradition of the books we currently have.
Steve
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From: John Chick <chick@uiuc.edu>
Subject: (glencook-fans) New to the list
Date: 13 Nov 2000 17:25:55 -0600
Hey all. I'm new to the list, so forgive me for asking something that
probably has been hashed over quite a bit. Is Steve correct in that Cook
is not planning to write anymore Black Company (regardless of timeline)
books in the future? This could break my heart - then again, maybe he's
got something better in the works.
Stacey Harris wrote:
> Mocker,
>
> Spoiler Space
> .
> \.
> .
> .
> ;
> ;
> ,.
> ',
> ',
> ',
> ',
> ',
> ',
> ;',
> ;,
> ;',
> ;',
> ;',
>
> '
> ;
> ',
>
> You ask, with respect to the various off-stage deaths, "Why?"
>
> I think, to write Finis to the Annals. To say, "That's all, goddammit!
> It's over." That is how I read it. And when I asked Glen if I was
> correct in reading it as the intended End, he said I was.
>
> But he also said he expects to be persuaded to write more--just not in
> the same (almost) linear tradition of the books we currently have.
>
> Steve
>
> =======================================================================
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From: Stacey Harris <harrissg@SLU.EDU>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) New to the list
Date: 13 Nov 2000 18:10:06 -0600
John,
"Is Steve correct in that Cook
is not planning to write anymore Black Company (regardless of timeline)
books in the future?"
Glen is currently finishing up a years-long project: a non-fantasy,
non-SF crime thriller (set in the very near future). Although he
intended Soldiers Live to be the capstone of the Black Company saga, he
expects to be persuaded to continue with BC books in some form, such as
in the past or alternate universes. That was the gist of a conversation
I had with him at Archon a couple months ago.
Steve
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From: "C.L. Yona" <junkboy@cyberwhirled.com>
Subject: Re: Odp: (glencook-fans) first thoughts on 'Soldiers live'
Date: 13 Nov 2000 19:26:34 -0500
> S P O I L E R SPOILER
> GODDAMMIT! The only thing I didnt like was the the
> deaths of One-Eye, Murgen, Doj etc. were very irrelevant. It
> was written for example "Murgen didnt make it" and thats
> all! He was one of the major characters and deserved an
> honorable death. And am I missing something? He did the same
> in the Dread Empire in "All Darkness Met". I ask you
> WHY? Mocker
>
Because people die in stupid ways, and just because they were major
characters doesn't mean they get glorious deaths. It's just the gritty
realism that Cook is renowned for. Think of some of the great military
figures of the past and how they died - Alexander the Great? Malaria, I
believe. General Patton? Jeep accident. I've always admired Cook
because he refuses to pander to his readers - they're HIS characters,
and he's the omnipotent one.
But that's just my two groats. Hell, who didn't want One-Eye and Goblin
to live forever?
yer dog
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From: schew@interzone.com (Steve Chew)
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) New to the list
Date: 14 Nov 2000 01:59:44 -0500 (EST)
>
>"Is Steve correct in that Cook
>is not planning to write anymore Black Company (regardless of timeline)
>books in the future?"
>
>Glen is currently finishing up a years-long project: a non-fantasy,
>non-SF crime thriller (set in the very near future). Although he
>intended Soldiers Live to be the capstone of the Black Company saga, he
>expects to be persuaded to continue with BC books in some form, such as
>in the past or alternate universes. That was the gist of a conversation
>I had with him at Archon a couple months ago.
>
Yes, he said about the same thing to me at Albacon. He might
not get back to the Black Company universe right away but I think he'll
eventually return in one form or another.
Steve
--
Steve Chew - schew@interzone.com - http://www.interzone.com
"Commander, this little breach of security isn't going to affect my
Christmas bonus, is it?"
-- Garibaldi, "The Gathering" - Babylon 5
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From: Lazarus Retsat <lazarus@catv.retsat1.com.pl>
Subject: Re[2]: Odp: (glencook-fans) first thoughts on 'Soldiers live'
Date: 14 Nov 2000 10:12:27 +0100
Hello,
CLY> Because people die in stupid ways, and just because they were major
CLY> characters doesn't mean they get glorious deaths. It's just the gritty
CLY> realism that Cook is renowned for. Think of some of the great military
CLY> figures of the past and how they died - Alexander the Great? Malaria, I
CLY> believe. General Patton? Jeep accident. I've always admired Cook
CLY> because he refuses to pander to his readers - they're HIS characters,
CLY> and he's the omnipotent one.
CLY> But that's just my two groats. Hell, who didn't want One-Eye and Goblin
CLY> to live forever?
Yes,you're right.I think the most stupid thing taht occur in many
movies ,books etc is some glorious death of major characters.I hate i
this when some guy wait with his death only to say some important.You
know some like"Son i always loved u " or "The treasure is in
...grrrrr(he died)".Cook provides very realistic look on this when
major character can fall from ladder and die for example:).This is
great and what makes Cook so original.
Greets
Lazarus mailto:lazarus@catv.retsat1.com.pl
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From: "Marcin Welnicki" <szyderca@poczta.onet.pl>
Subject: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 14 Nov 2000 14:13:47 +0100
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2000 11:27 PM
> Mocker,
>
> Spoiler Space
> .
> \.
> .
> .
> ;
> ;
> ,.
> ',
> ',
> ',
> ',
> ',
> ',
> ;',
> ;,
> ;',
> ;',
> ;',
>
> '
> ;
> ',
>
> You ask, with respect to the various off-stage deaths, "Why?"
>
> I think, to write Finis to the Annals. To say, "That's all, goddammit!
> It's over." That is how I read it. And when I asked Glen if I was
> correct in reading it as the intended End, he said I was.
>
> But he also said he expects to be persuaded to write more--just not in
> the same (almost) linear tradition of the books we currently have.
>
> Steve
>
> I agree with you, but aren't those deaths a contradiction to what they
were fighting for? It's like they fought for nothing, because even if they
won there wasn't anyone to celebrate;). Or maybe the Deciever saying is
right: Darkness always comes...
Mocker
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From: Jay DeSimone <jdesimon1@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Odp: (glencook-fans) first thoughts on 'Soldiers live'
Date: 14 Nov 2000 10:04:04 -0500
Nope. Syphillis.
Jay
"C.L. Yona" wrote:
> . Think of some of the great military
> figures of the past and how they died - Alexander the Great? Malaria, I
> believe.
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From: "Marcin Welnicki" <szyderca@poczta.onet.pl>
Subject: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) first thoughts on 'Soldiers live'
Date: 14 Nov 2000 18:29:38 +0100
>
> Nope. Syphillis.
>
> Jay
>
Hehehe. Noughty boy that Alexander :)))))))))
Mocker
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From: Stacey Harris <harrissg@SLU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 14 Nov 2000 12:43:28 -0600
Mocker,
Spoiler Space
/.,'
.,,;,;
\
'./.\
'.\
.\
]'.
\\
./\
./\
?.\
.\
'./\
.
.\
.\
/.\
.\
/.\
/.\
/./\
.\
.\\
'.
"aren't those deaths a contradiction to what they
were fighting for? It's like they fought for nothing, because even if they
won there wasn't anyone to celebrate"
Perhaps that's a good viewpoint. To the extent it is, it validates my
conclusion that Sleepy was incompetent as warleader of the BC, and Cook
was essentially noting this by the failure of the chronicles (the book)
to record the deaths appropriately or to put them in any sort of context
that would "make sense" (from a morale point of view).
Steve
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From: Aaron Contreras <Aaron.Contreras@sierra.com>
Subject: RE: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 14 Nov 2000 10:50:29 -0800
I just got the feeling he was eager for the book to end and writing lazy.
-----Original Message-----
Mocker,
Spoiler Space
/.,'
.,,;,;
\
'./.\
'.\
.\
]'.
\\
./\
./\
?.\
.\
'./\
.
.\
.\
/.\
.\
/.\
/.\
/./\
.\
.\\
'.
"aren't those deaths a contradiction to what they
were fighting for? It's like they fought for nothing, because even if they
won there wasn't anyone to celebrate"
Perhaps that's a good viewpoint. To the extent it is, it validates my
conclusion that Sleepy was incompetent as warleader of the BC, and Cook
was essentially noting this by the failure of the chronicles (the book)
to record the deaths appropriately or to put them in any sort of context
that would "make sense" (from a morale point of view).
Steve
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From: "Horky, Roger" <rhorky@trinity.edu>
Subject: (glencook-fans) deaths of main characters
Date: 14 Nov 2000 14:33:29 -0600
In re the deaths of so many characters:
Don't most lifetime soldiers wish to die in bed of old age?
I don't recall many BC characters expressing a religious desire to die in
battle to be taken to (the equivalent of ) Valhalla; I get the impression
most would just be happy to be done with all wars and die in their sleep.
Yet they know full well that they are nothing without a war to fight--it's
all they know how to do.
Only Rhododendron Case was able to fulfill the desire to settle down and
raise a passel (sp?) of kids.
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From: "Joseph McGrath" <jomcgrath@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Odp: (glencook-fans) first thoughts on 'Soldiers live'
Date: 13 Nov 2000 20:09:06 -0000
Totaly right!
Hemingway wrote, "It used to be sweet and fitting for a man to die for his
country. Nowadays you will die like a dog in the dirt as if noone had ever
seen you live."
Or something like that.
Joseph
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 12:26 AM
> > S P O I L E R SPOILER
> > GODDAMMIT! The only thing I didnt like was the the
> > deaths of One-Eye, Murgen, Doj etc. were very irrelevant. It
> > was written for example "Murgen didnt make it" and thats
> > all! He was one of the major characters and deserved an
> > honorable death. And am I missing something? He did the same
> > in the Dread Empire in "All Darkness Met". I ask you
> > WHY? Mocker
> >
> Because people die in stupid ways, and just because they were major
> characters doesn't mean they get glorious deaths. It's just the gritty
> realism that Cook is renowned for. Think of some of the great military
> figures of the past and how they died - Alexander the Great? Malaria, I
> believe. General Patton? Jeep accident. I've always admired Cook
> because he refuses to pander to his readers - they're HIS characters,
> and he's the omnipotent one.
>
> But that's just my two groats. Hell, who didn't want One-Eye and Goblin
> to live forever?
>
> yer dog
>
>
> =======================================================================
> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
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From: "Vonder Haar, Peter C." <Peter.VonderHaar@bakerhughes.com>
Subject: RE: Odp: (glencook-fans) first thoughts on 'Soldiers live'
Date: 14 Nov 2000 17:02:02 -0600
I think it's:
"In the old days, it was thought of as sweet and fitting to die for one's
country. Now we know there is nothing sweet nor fitting about it. You will
die like a dog for no good reason."
That's the gist. I have the actual quote up in my office at home.
Pete
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joseph McGrath [mailto:jomcgrath@mediaone.net]
> Sent: Monday, November 13, 2000 2:09 PM
> To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> Cc: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: Odp: (glencook-fans) first thoughts on 'Soldiers live'
>
>
> Totaly right!
> Hemingway wrote, "It used to be sweet and fitting for a man
> to die for his
> country. Nowadays you will die like a dog in the dirt as if
> noone had ever
> seen you live."
> Or something like that.
> Joseph
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From: "Tim McDowell" <mcdowelt@izzyspizza.com>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 14 Nov 2000 17:27:23 -0800
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 10:43 AM
> Mocker,
>
> Spoiler Space
>
> /.,'
> .,,;,;
> \
> './.\
> '.\
> .\
> ]'.
> \\
> ./\
> ./\
> ?.\
>
> .\
> './\
> .
> .\
> .\
> /.\
> .\
> /.\
> /.\
> /./\
> .\
> .\\
> '.
>
> "aren't those deaths a contradiction to what they
> were fighting for? It's like they fought for nothing, because even if
they
> won there wasn't anyone to celebrate"
>
> Perhaps that's a good viewpoint. To the extent it is, it validates my
> conclusion that Sleepy was incompetent as warleader of the BC, and Cook
> was essentially noting this by the failure of the chronicles (the book)
> to record the deaths appropriately or to put them in any sort of context
> that would "make sense" (from a morale point of view).
>
> Steve
Sorry, I tend to disagree with the conclusion that Sleepy was an
incompetent Captain for the Black Company. It is my opinion that Croaker was
upset with Sleepy because she wouldn't bring him all the way into her inner
circle. He was now a former captian on the outside looking in. And not real
happy with the situation. His 'reporting' of the actions of the Captain
would be reflected in that light.
If your unhappy with someone and are writing about it, you will tend to
write about that person in such a manner as to present them in a bad way.
Also, at this time the Company was losing hundreds of brothers in the
fighting. We don't hear much about them either. In early books, Croaker
would agonize over the fact that he could not mention the names of all of
the brothers that fell in battle. Here we only find mention of a few people
and at that only that they are dead or M.I.A.
Of course, Croaker does have several other things on his mind at this
time. Lady is in a coma, BooBoo is in shock, he just *blew up a god!* and is
soon to leave all of this behind him by switching minds with the caretaker
of the glittering plain ( i forget it's name and spelling at the moment).
I really think he's pre-occupied. He is making plans for the Company to
move on without him. Croaker's time is done. Let someone else worry about
the little stuff.
Tim
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From: "Jordan Raney" <jrraney@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 15 Nov 2000 00:03:57 -0600
> > Spoiler Space
> >
> > /.,'
> > .,,;,;
> > \
> > './.\
> > '.\
> > .\
> > ]'.
> > \\
> > ./\
> > ./\
> > ?.\
> >
> > .\
> > './\
> > .
> > .\
> > .\
> > /.\
> > .\
> > /.\
> > /.\
> > /./\
> > .\
> > .\\
> > '.
> >
> Sorry, I tend to disagree with the conclusion that Sleepy was an
> incompetent Captain for the Black Company. It is my opinion that Croaker
was
> upset with Sleepy because she wouldn't bring him all the way into her
inner
> circle. He was now a former captian on the outside looking in. And not
real
> happy with the situation. His 'reporting' of the actions of the Captain
> would be reflected in that light.
> If your unhappy with someone and are writing about it, you will tend
to
> write about that person in such a manner as to present them in a bad way.
If you aren't "happy" with someone you are writing about, you probably
wouldn't have created the character in the first place. It'd be different
if Glen made up the story as he went along, but I thought I remember him
talking about his writing method and saying that he plans it out before he
writes? I don't think it was a case ofm, "shoot, I'm stuck here with this
lousy character leading the company, let's get rid of her."
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From: Stacey Harris <harrissg@slu.edu>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 15 Nov 2000 01:43:53 -0600
Tim,
> Spoiler Space
>
> /.,'
> .,,;,;
> \
> './.\
> '.\
> .\
> ]'.
> \\
> ./\
> ./\
> ?.\
>
> .\
> './\
> .
> .\
> .\
> /.\
> .\
> /.\
> /.\
> /./\
> .\
> .\\
> '.
>
"I tend to disagree with the conclusion that Sleepy was an
incompetent Captain for the Black Company."
My conclusion on that has nothing to do with Croaker's reportage, but
with Sleepy's utter fiasco of a frontal attack on the city, quite out of
keeping with BC tactics--and not really in keeping with BC strategic
aims, either (it wasn't a necessary campaign to wage). Cook has "fate"
do in Sleepy and others ignominiously as apt repayment for her
incompetence at the end, as I see it.
steve
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From: Jay DeSimone <jdesimon1@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 15 Nov 2000 07:38:07 -0500
> > Spoiler Space
> >
> > /.,'
> > .,,;,;
> > \
> > './.\
> > '.\
> > .\
> > ]'.
> > \\
> > ./\
> > ./\
> > ?.\
> >
> > .\
> > './\
> > .
> > .\
> > .\
> > /.\
> > .\
> > /.\
> > /.\
> > /./\
> > .\
> > .\\
> > '.
> >Stacey Harris wrote:
>
> "I tend to disagree with the conclusion that Sleepy was an
> incompetent Captain for the Black Company."
>
> My conclusion on that has nothing to do with Croaker's reportage, but
> with Sleepy's utter fiasco of a frontal attack on the city, quite out of
> keeping with BC tactics--and not really in keeping with BC strategic
> aims, either (it wasn't a necessary campaign to wage). Cook has "fate"
> do in Sleepy and others ignominiously as apt repayment for her
> incompetence at the end, as I see it.
I have to disagree about Sleepy being a bad Captain at all. Remember, she
kept the company hidden under Catcher's nose for a lot of years during the
captivity. The Company had changed; the Captain's style also changed with
each captain. How many assaults on cities did Croaker lead? Wtat made
attacking Taglios a bad idea? Croaker's lack of planning and playing
everything as it came led to the Dejagore disaster. She did a good job, I
think...her only mistake was walking through that gate first.
Just my 2 cents.
Jay
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From: "Wright Frazier" <khelek@cioe.com>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 15 Nov 2000 08:41:36 -0500
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 7:38 AM
> > > Spoiler Space
> > >
> > > /.,'
> > > .,,;,;
> > > \
> > > './.\
> > > '.\
> > > .\
> > > ]'.
> > > \\
> > > ./\
> > > ./\
> > > ?.\
> > >
> > > .\
> > > './\
> > > .
> > > .\
> > > .\
> > > /.\
> > > .\
> > > /.\
> > > /.\
> > > /./\
> > > .\
> > > .\\
> > > '.
> > >Stacey Harris wrote:
> >
> > "I tend to disagree with the conclusion that Sleepy was an
> > incompetent Captain for the Black Company."
> >
> > My conclusion on that has nothing to do with Croaker's reportage, but
> > with Sleepy's utter fiasco of a frontal attack on the city, quite out of
> > keeping with BC tactics--and not really in keeping with BC strategic
> > aims, either (it wasn't a necessary campaign to wage). Cook has "fate"
> > do in Sleepy and others ignominiously as apt repayment for her
> > incompetence at the end, as I see it.
>
> I have to disagree about Sleepy being a bad Captain at all. Remember, she
> kept the company hidden under Catcher's nose for a lot of years during the
> captivity. The Company had changed; the Captain's style also changed with
> each captain. How many assaults on cities did Croaker lead? Wtat made
> attacking Taglios a bad idea? Croaker's lack of planning and playing
> everything as it came led to the Dejagore disaster. She did a good job, I
> think...her only mistake was walking through that gate first.
>
I don't think Sleepy was a bad captain either. From studying history, and
considering the magical resources she had available (not much), a frontal
assault in 2 places is about as good as you can get. That city had a wall,
and unless Tobo (who was real out of it at the time) just knocked a huge
stretch of it down, then that leaves only a few points to attack from (hince
the purpose of the wall, channeling the attacker where you want). In this
case through the river quarter (hard to do even in modern times because it
is an amphibious operation) and the gate. The river quarter as I said
requires an amphibious assault and we aren't looking at things for
deployement like Higgins boats or Amtracks. We are talking about guys
rowing up in boats which are very susceptable to enemey fire, or swimming
which is very exhaustive and very hard to keep your men together. That she
was able to get so many men onto land in the Riverquarter struck me as
honestly a tad unbelieveable unless the armor that the Children of the Dead
wore floated. =)
Also historically speaking there is no good way to assault a city with a
wall, that is why such things _ALWAYS_ resulted in horrible sackings and
butcherings if the city resisted. It is the most dangerous thing for an
attacker to do and requires huge amounts of effort and casualties because
every advantage is with the defender, and that just really pisses people
off. So when they'd finally take a city, they'd punish the resistors as
thoroughly as they could. That was something else that struck me as
unbelieveable, that the Children of the Dead and the levies raised on the
way didn't loot and pillage once they were inside. They were all foreign
soldiers in a foreign city. They had no love for it. That kind of
discipline has only come around in modern armies, and its still not fully
contained even in the US military.
If Sleepy screwed up, it was in entering the city before that gate house was
fully taken. Trap or no trap, that is just begging for trouble.
Wright
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From: "Timothy P. Taylor" <tptaylor@genuity.com>
Subject: RE: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 15 Nov 2000 08:59:02 -0500
Wright,
Uhm, Historically speaking, Belisarious (sp?) <perhaps the greatest Roman
General Ever> Had perhaps one of the best disiplined armies ever to walk the
face of the earth. While I'm not stating that some looting etc. never
happened, Belisarious brought order and discipline to the Roman Legions not
seen before or since, even today.
Face it, when you have an army trained to kill the other folks, sometimes
bloodlust is just impossible to contain, contrary to what any liberal will
have you believe. Man is still not all that far from his forbears, and when
you condition the body to respond in certain curcumstances with specific
actions, you *ARE* going to have incidents.
I don't find it that ahrd to believe that the looting and pillaging was kept
to a minimum. The company's strength has always been its superior
discipline, which held true to the last. Once Mogaba fell, the heart of the
resistance pretty much ended.
TT
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Wright
> Frazier
> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 8:42 AM
> To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
>
>
>
> Also historically speaking there is no good way to assault a city with a
> wall, that is why such things _ALWAYS_ resulted in horrible sackings and
> butcherings if the city resisted. It is the most dangerous thing for an
> attacker to do and requires huge amounts of effort and casualties because
> every advantage is with the defender, and that just really pisses people
> off. So when they'd finally take a city, they'd punish the resistors as
> thoroughly as they could. That was something else that struck me as
> unbelieveable, that the Children of the Dead and the levies raised on the
> way didn't loot and pillage once they were inside. They were all foreign
> soldiers in a foreign city. They had no love for it. That kind of
> discipline has only come around in modern armies, and its still not fully
> contained even in the US military.
>
> If Sleepy screwed up, it was in entering the city before that
> gate house was
> fully taken. Trap or no trap, that is just begging for trouble.
>
> Wright
>
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From: "Wright Frazier" <khelek@cioe.com>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 15 Nov 2000 09:04:26 -0500
The heart of the company yes, but the Children of the Dead and the Levies
gathered along the way are not the heart of the company. They are mercs for
mercs. In the case of the Children of the Dead they were signing on for 1
or 2year in the field contracts if I remember right. Also remember, that
these were not good people even the core ones. When the Khatovar kids
escaped (can't remember their names) they raped one of'em for it, and for
killing just one or two of their members during their escape. Why would
they do that to her for killing one or two during an escape but not to the
whole town for resisting and killing thousands of brothers? The "female
core" that croaker pointed out that kept it a bit in reign was gone by then
(Sleepy & Sahra dead, Lady out of it).
I just don't buy that they would not sack the city. For the hell they got
put through taking it.
Wright
> Wright,
>
> Uhm, Historically speaking, Belisarious (sp?) <perhaps the greatest Roman
> General Ever> Had perhaps one of the best disiplined armies ever to walk
the
> face of the earth. While I'm not stating that some looting etc. never
> happened, Belisarious brought order and discipline to the Roman Legions
not
> seen before or since, even today.
>
> Face it, when you have an army trained to kill the other folks, sometimes
> bloodlust is just impossible to contain, contrary to what any liberal will
> have you believe. Man is still not all that far from his forbears, and
when
> you condition the body to respond in certain curcumstances with specific
> actions, you *ARE* going to have incidents.
>
> I don't find it that ahrd to believe that the looting and pillaging was
kept
> to a minimum. The company's strength has always been its superior
> discipline, which held true to the last. Once Mogaba fell, the heart of
the
> resistance pretty much ended.
>
> TT
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> > [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Wright
> > Frazier
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 8:42 AM
> > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> > Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
> >
> >
> >
> > Also historically speaking there is no good way to assault a city with a
> > wall, that is why such things _ALWAYS_ resulted in horrible sackings and
> > butcherings if the city resisted. It is the most dangerous thing for an
> > attacker to do and requires huge amounts of effort and casualties
because
> > every advantage is with the defender, and that just really pisses people
> > off. So when they'd finally take a city, they'd punish the resistors as
> > thoroughly as they could. That was something else that struck me as
> > unbelieveable, that the Children of the Dead and the levies raised on
the
> > way didn't loot and pillage once they were inside. They were all
foreign
> > soldiers in a foreign city. They had no love for it. That kind of
> > discipline has only come around in modern armies, and its still not
fully
> > contained even in the US military.
> >
> > If Sleepy screwed up, it was in entering the city before that
> > gate house was
> > fully taken. Trap or no trap, that is just begging for trouble.
> >
> > Wright
> >
>
>
> =======================================================================
> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Joseph McGrath" <jomcgrath@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Odp: (glencook-fans) first thoughts on 'Soldiers live'
Date: 14 Nov 2000 18:47:41 -0000
Thanks Pete,
I think I remember remember reading it somewhere once... That was just
how i rememberd it.
Joseph
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 11:02 PM
> I think it's:
> "In the old days, it was thought of as sweet and fitting to die for one's
> country. Now we know there is nothing sweet nor fitting about it. You
will
> die like a dog for no good reason."
> That's the gist. I have the actual quote up in my office at home.
>
> Pete
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joseph McGrath [mailto:jomcgrath@mediaone.net]
> > Sent: Monday, November 13, 2000 2:09 PM
> > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> > Cc: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> > Subject: Re: Odp: (glencook-fans) first thoughts on 'Soldiers live'
> >
> >
> > Totaly right!
> > Hemingway wrote, "It used to be sweet and fitting for a man
> > to die for his
> > country. Nowadays you will die like a dog in the dirt as if
> > noone had ever
> > seen you live."
> > Or something like that.
> > Joseph
>
> =======================================================================
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> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
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From: "Timothy P. Taylor" <tptaylor@genuity.com>
Subject: RE: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 15 Nov 2000 09:29:14 -0500
Wright, I think you anser your own question. In fact most of the ones
killed were "NOT" borthers, but mercs. There are historical events where a
city was taken, but not sacked, even though resistance was fierce. In one
case at least, the attackers were just emotionally and physically too
drained.
I can accept your belief that they should have sacked the city. Thats
whats great about this list!
;)
TT
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Wright
> Frazier
> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 9:04 AM
> To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
>
>
> The heart of the company yes, but the Children of the Dead and the Levies
> gathered along the way are not the heart of the company. They
> are mercs for
> mercs. In the case of the Children of the Dead they were signing on for 1
> or 2year in the field contracts if I remember right. Also remember, that
> these were not good people even the core ones. When the Khatovar kids
> escaped (can't remember their names) they raped one of'em for it, and for
> killing just one or two of their members during their escape. Why would
> they do that to her for killing one or two during an escape but not to the
> whole town for resisting and killing thousands of brothers? The "female
> core" that croaker pointed out that kept it a bit in reign was
> gone by then
> (Sleepy & Sahra dead, Lady out of it).
>
> I just don't buy that they would not sack the city. For the hell they got
> put through taking it.
>
> Wright
>
>
> > Wright,
> >
> > Uhm, Historically speaking, Belisarious (sp?) <perhaps the
> greatest Roman
> > General Ever> Had perhaps one of the best disiplined armies ever to walk
> the
> > face of the earth. While I'm not stating that some looting etc. never
> > happened, Belisarious brought order and discipline to the Roman Legions
> not
> > seen before or since, even today.
> >
> > Face it, when you have an army trained to kill the other folks,
> sometimes
> > bloodlust is just impossible to contain, contrary to what any
> liberal will
> > have you believe. Man is still not all that far from his forbears, and
> when
> > you condition the body to respond in certain curcumstances with specific
> > actions, you *ARE* going to have incidents.
> >
> > I don't find it that ahrd to believe that the looting and pillaging was
> kept
> > to a minimum. The company's strength has always been its superior
> > discipline, which held true to the last. Once Mogaba fell, the heart of
> the
> > resistance pretty much ended.
> >
> > TT
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> > > [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Wright
> > > Frazier
> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 8:42 AM
> > > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> > > Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Also historically speaking there is no good way to assault a
> city with a
> > > wall, that is why such things _ALWAYS_ resulted in horrible
> sackings and
> > > butcherings if the city resisted. It is the most dangerous
> thing for an
> > > attacker to do and requires huge amounts of effort and casualties
> because
> > > every advantage is with the defender, and that just really
> pisses people
> > > off. So when they'd finally take a city, they'd punish the
> resistors as
> > > thoroughly as they could. That was something else that struck me as
> > > unbelieveable, that the Children of the Dead and the levies raised on
> the
> > > way didn't loot and pillage once they were inside. They were all
> foreign
> > > soldiers in a foreign city. They had no love for it. That kind of
> > > discipline has only come around in modern armies, and its still not
> fully
> > > contained even in the US military.
> > >
> > > If Sleepy screwed up, it was in entering the city before that
> > > gate house was
> > > fully taken. Trap or no trap, that is just begging for trouble.
> > >
> > > Wright
> > >
> >
> >
> > =======================================================================
> > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> >
>
>
>
> =======================================================================
> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Wright Frazier" <khelek@cioe.com>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 15 Nov 2000 09:33:45 -0500
Even after being emotionally and physically drained, folks till had enough
energy for the Slaughter of Jerusalem & the Rape of Magdeberg. =) Its one
of Mr. Cook's weaker points in the story. He goes out of his way to portray
the company as a bunch of nasty bastages, but when the time comes when
armies turn really nasty, they don't.
*shrug*
Wright
> Wright, I think you anser your own question. In fact most of the ones
> killed were "NOT" borthers, but mercs. There are historical events where
a
> city was taken, but not sacked, even though resistance was fierce. In one
> case at least, the attackers were just emotionally and physically too
> drained.
>
> I can accept your belief that they should have sacked the city. Thats
> whats great about this list!
>
> ;)
>
> TT
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> > [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Wright
> > Frazier
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 9:04 AM
> > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> > Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
> >
> >
> > The heart of the company yes, but the Children of the Dead and the
Levies
> > gathered along the way are not the heart of the company. They
> > are mercs for
> > mercs. In the case of the Children of the Dead they were signing on for
1
> > or 2year in the field contracts if I remember right. Also remember,
that
> > these were not good people even the core ones. When the Khatovar kids
> > escaped (can't remember their names) they raped one of'em for it, and
for
> > killing just one or two of their members during their escape. Why would
> > they do that to her for killing one or two during an escape but not to
the
> > whole town for resisting and killing thousands of brothers? The "female
> > core" that croaker pointed out that kept it a bit in reign was
> > gone by then
> > (Sleepy & Sahra dead, Lady out of it).
> >
> > I just don't buy that they would not sack the city. For the hell they
got
> > put through taking it.
> >
> > Wright
> >
> >
> > > Wright,
> > >
> > > Uhm, Historically speaking, Belisarious (sp?) <perhaps the
> > greatest Roman
> > > General Ever> Had perhaps one of the best disiplined armies ever to
walk
> > the
> > > face of the earth. While I'm not stating that some looting etc. never
> > > happened, Belisarious brought order and discipline to the Roman
Legions
> > not
> > > seen before or since, even today.
> > >
> > > Face it, when you have an army trained to kill the other folks,
> > sometimes
> > > bloodlust is just impossible to contain, contrary to what any
> > liberal will
> > > have you believe. Man is still not all that far from his forbears,
and
> > when
> > > you condition the body to respond in certain curcumstances with
specific
> > > actions, you *ARE* going to have incidents.
> > >
> > > I don't find it that ahrd to believe that the looting and pillaging
was
> > kept
> > > to a minimum. The company's strength has always been its superior
> > > discipline, which held true to the last. Once Mogaba fell, the heart
of
> > the
> > > resistance pretty much ended.
> > >
> > > TT
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> > > > [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Wright
> > > > Frazier
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 8:42 AM
> > > > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> > > > Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Also historically speaking there is no good way to assault a
> > city with a
> > > > wall, that is why such things _ALWAYS_ resulted in horrible
> > sackings and
> > > > butcherings if the city resisted. It is the most dangerous
> > thing for an
> > > > attacker to do and requires huge amounts of effort and casualties
> > because
> > > > every advantage is with the defender, and that just really
> > pisses people
> > > > off. So when they'd finally take a city, they'd punish the
> > resistors as
> > > > thoroughly as they could. That was something else that struck me as
> > > > unbelieveable, that the Children of the Dead and the levies raised
on
> > the
> > > > way didn't loot and pillage once they were inside. They were all
> > foreign
> > > > soldiers in a foreign city. They had no love for it. That kind of
> > > > discipline has only come around in modern armies, and its still not
> > fully
> > > > contained even in the US military.
> > > >
> > > > If Sleepy screwed up, it was in entering the city before that
> > > > gate house was
> > > > fully taken. Trap or no trap, that is just begging for trouble.
> > > >
> > > > Wright
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
=======================================================================
> > > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> > > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > =======================================================================
> > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
>
> =======================================================================
> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Tim McDowell" <mcdowelt@izzyspizza.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Fw: EMAZING Internet Tip of the Day - Book Search Engines
Date: 15 Nov 2000 07:20:57 -0800
I got this in a e-mail. Maybe someone else can also use these sites.
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
> Book Search Engines
>
> If you're a book collector, or a bargain hunter, or if you
> need an out-of-print title, then try some of the used book
> search engines on the Web. These link together hundreds of
> small (and not-so-small) bookstores coast to coast and in
> other countries, letting you search hundreds of inventories
> for the right book. You can search title, author,
> publisher, and other attributes, like hardbound or
> paperback, dust jacket, first edition, etc. Condition is
> listed, too. You often get multiple hits for titles, giving
> you a choice of prices. Collectors can find what they need
> to round out their favorite authors. Bargain hunters can
> find used copies of out-of-print books. You can purchase
> the books online, too. Two of the best are ABE and Alibris.
> Both give you lots of search options.
>
> Visit ABE.
> http://www.abe.com/
>
> Try Alibris.
> http://www.alibris.com/cgi-bin/texis/searcher
>
> - Dennis Ryan
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
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From: "Tim McDowell" <mcdowelt@izzyspizza.com>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 15 Nov 2000 07:31:43 -0800
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 10:03 PM
> > > Spoiler Space
> > >
> > > /.,'
> > > .,,;,;
> > > \
> > > './.\
> > > '.\
> > > .\
> > > ]'.
> > > \\
> > > ./\
> > > ./\
> > > ?.\
> > >
> > > .\
> > > './\
> > > .
> > > .\
> > > .\
> > > /.\
> > > .\
> > > /.\
> > > /.\
> > > /./\
> > > .\
> > > .\\
> > > '.
> > >
> > Sorry, I tend to disagree with the conclusion that Sleepy was an
> > incompetent Captain for the Black Company. It is my opinion that Croaker
> was
> > upset with Sleepy because she wouldn't bring him all the way into her
> inner
> > circle. He was now a former captian on the outside looking in. And not
> real
> > happy with the situation. His 'reporting' of the actions of the Captain
> > would be reflected in that light.
> > If your unhappy with someone and are writing about it, you will tend
> to
> > write about that person in such a manner as to present them in a bad
way.
>
> If you aren't "happy" with someone you are writing about, you probably
> wouldn't have created the character in the first place.
Sorry, I seem to have given you some confusion. In my last sentence
above, I was still speaking of Croaker writing in the Annals about Sleepy.
Not Mr. Cook writing about Croaker writing about Sleepy. (if i put one more
twist in there i'll probably be able to bite myself in the back.)
It'd be different
> if Glen made up the story as he went along, but I thought I remember him
> talking about his writing method and saying that he plans it out before he
> writes? I don't think it was a case ofm, "shoot, I'm stuck here with this
> lousy character leading the company, let's get rid of her."
>
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Tim McDowell" <mcdowelt@izzyspizza.com>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 15 Nov 2000 07:42:07 -0800
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 11:43 PM
> Tim,
>
> > Spoiler Space
> >
> > /.,'
> > .,,;,;
> > \
> > './.\
> > '.\
> > .\
> > ]'.
> > \\
> > ./\
> > ./\
> > ?.\
> >
> > .\
> > './\
> > .
> > .\
> > .\
> > /.\
> > .\
> > /.\
> > /.\
> > /./\
> > .\
> > .\\
> > '.
> >
>
> "I tend to disagree with the conclusion that Sleepy was an
> incompetent Captain for the Black Company."
>
> My conclusion on that has nothing to do with Croaker's reportage, but
> with Sleepy's utter fiasco of a frontal attack on the city, quite out of
> keeping with BC tactics--and not really in keeping with BC strategic
> aims, either (it wasn't a necessary campaign to wage). Cook has "fate"
> do in Sleepy and others ignominiously as apt repayment for her
> incompetence at the end, as I see it.
>
> steve
I don't think it was ignominiously. Granted that the gate's towers
should have been secured first, but there was no way anyone, in the Company,
could have foreseen what was about to happen.
The Company had breached the cities gate and was marching in.to take
control of the city. Sleepy and her command staff were in the middle of the
column when they entered the gate area. The trap that was triggered was the
one that Mogaba had designed to that out SoulCatcher. In a roundabout way
quite a compliment. One that I'm sure was lost on Sleepy and all the others
with her. They were to busy dying at the time.
Tim
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Jordan Raney" <jrraney@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 15 Nov 2000 12:02:07 -0600
> > > > Spoiler Space
> > > >
> > > > /.,'
> > > > .,,;,;
> > > > \
> > > > './.\
> > > > '.\
> > > > .\
> > > > ]'.
> > > > \\
> > > > ./\
> > > > ./\
> > > > ?.\
> > > >
> > > > .\
> > > > './\
> > > > .
> > > > .\
> > > > .\
> > > > /.\
> > > > .\
> > > > /.\
> > > > /.\
> > > > /./\
> > > > .\
> > > > .\\
> > > > '.
> I don't think Sleepy was a bad captain either. From studying history, and
> considering the magical resources she had available (not much), a frontal
> assault in 2 places is about as good as you can get. That city had a
wall,
> and unless Tobo (who was real out of it at the time) just knocked a huge
> stretch of it down, then that leaves only a few points to attack from
(hince
> the purpose of the wall, channeling the attacker where you want). In this
> case through the river quarter (hard to do even in modern times because it
> is an amphibious operation) and the gate
The Old Company would have taken the city by stealth, I think that's the
important thing. The wouldn't have probably sent anyone in through the
gates, but rather gotten some guys hidden in there to let them in.
=======================================================================
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Jordan Raney" <jrraney@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 15 Nov 2000 12:05:11 -0600
> > > > Spoiler Space
> > > >
> > > > /.,'
> > > > .,,;,;
> > > > \
> > > > './.\
> > > > '.\
> > > > .\
> > > > ]'.
> > > > \\
> > > > ./\
> > > > ./\
> > > > ?.\
> > > >
> > > > .\
> > > > './\
> > > > .
> > > > .\
> > > > .\
> > > > /.\
> > > > .\
> > > > /.\
> > > > /.\
> > > > /./\
> > > > .\
> > > > .\\
> > > > '.
> > > >
> > If you aren't "happy" with someone you are writing about, you probably
> > wouldn't have created the character in the first place.
>
> Sorry, I seem to have given you some confusion. In my last sentence
> above, I was still speaking of Croaker writing in the Annals about
Sleepy.
> Not Mr. Cook writing about Croaker writing about Sleepy. (if i put one
more
> twist in there i'll probably be able to bite myself in the back.)
Whoops, I see that now, sorry. I misunderstood.
>
> =======================================================================
> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Wright Frazier" <khelek@cioe.com>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 15 Nov 2000 13:31:09 -0500
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 1:02 PM
> > > > > Spoiler Space
> > > > >
> > > > > /.,'
> > > > > .,,;,;
> > > > > \
> > > > > './.\
> > > > > '.\
> > > > > .\
> > > > > ]'.
> > > > > \\
> > > > > ./\
> > > > > ./\
> > > > > ?.\
> > > > >
> > > > > .\
> > > > > './\
> > > > > .
> > > > > .\
> > > > > .\
> > > > > /.\
> > > > > .\
> > > > > /.\
> > > > > /.\
> > > > > /./\
> > > > > .\
> > > > > .\\
> > > > > '.
> > I don't think Sleepy was a bad captain either. From studying history,
and
> > considering the magical resources she had available (not much), a
frontal
> > assault in 2 places is about as good as you can get. That city had a
> wall,
> > and unless Tobo (who was real out of it at the time) just knocked a huge
> > stretch of it down, then that leaves only a few points to attack from
> (hince
> > the purpose of the wall, channeling the attacker where you want). In
this
> > case through the river quarter (hard to do even in modern times because
it
> > is an amphibious operation) and the gate
>
> The Old Company would have taken the city by stealth, I think that's the
> important thing. The wouldn't have probably sent anyone in through the
> gates, but rather gotten some guys hidden in there to let them in.
The siege we saw the old company do was a frontal assault as well but they
did have a lot more resources to use too. (taken's magic, and siege engines
gallore).
Wright
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From: Jay DeSimone <jdesimon1@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 15 Nov 2000 13:50:56 -0500
> > > > Spoiler Space
> > > >
> > > > /.,'
> > > > .,,;,;
> > > > \
> > > > './.\
> > > > '.\
> > > > .\
> > > > ]'.
> > > > \\
> > > > ./\
> > > > ./\
> > > > ?.\
> > > >
> > > > .\
> > > > './\
> > > > .
> > > > .\
> > > > .\
> > > > /.\
> > > > .\
> > > > /.\
> > > > /.\
> > > > /./\
> > > > .\
> > > > .\\
> > > > '.
>The Old Company would have taken the city by stealth, I think that's the
>important thing. The wouldn't have probably sent anyone in through the
>gates, but rather gotten some guys hidden in there to let them in.
the old company had some major wizards with them, too. But even they took
big cities by force, not stealth. Mogaba was a good general; he would have
protected against people in the city opening the gates. I'm not trying to
generate conflict, just my opinion.
Jay
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From: "Marcin Welnicki" <szyderca@poczta.onet.pl>
Subject: Odp: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 15 Nov 2000 20:39:34 +0100
> If Sleepy screwed up, it was in entering the city before that gate house
was
> fully taken. Trap or no trap, that is just begging for trouble.
>
> Wright
But I had an impression the whole attack on the Taglios Territory was
unprepared. Thay had everything thay needed to win, and if not they could
wait a couple of years.
And of course the great mistake Sleepy did, in my opinion, was to let ALL
the wizards fly to the gate when they were so close to Taglios.
Mocker
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From: Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Fw: EMAZING Internet Tip of the Day - Book
Date: 15 Nov 2000 12:51:07 -0700
on 11/15/00 8:20 AM, Tim McDowell at mcdowelt@izzyspizza.com wrote:
> I got this in a e-mail. Maybe someone else can also use these sites.
[snip]
A list of online resources that are useful in acquiring Glen Cook books are
located at < http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Links4.html >.
--
Eric Herrmann
<shpshftr@xmission.com>
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From: "Wright Frazier" <khelek@cioe.com>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 15 Nov 2000 14:51:21 -0500
SPOILERS
.
---
Naw I think considering that the Children of the Dead only signed up for 1
or 2 years in the field they had to know that they couldn't jerk around in
the campaign. They had to go for the throat and go fast. That ment driving
on Taglios till Soulcatcher & Mogaba were dead, with a handy side benefit of
the Radisha & Pahbindrah being put back in power.
Now along the way they had to improvise as the situation warrented, but
their plan and planning was definately directed towards taking the city in
the end.
As for the wizards going to Mogaba's tower where the big cluster happened
(if thats what ya mean by the gate) with the shadows. Quite true that would
have been the big mistake, but i'm not entirely sure Sleepy okayed that. I
think she did and if so you are definately right. Cause that set the stage
for Tobo & Lady not being able to just blow the gate house, where Sleepy
died and the company got cut in half, to splinters.
Something else that bugged me... and correct me if I'm wrong. But didn't it
say that when sleepy entered they controlled stretches of the wall but not
the gate house? And how high was the wall?
Wright
> > If Sleepy screwed up, it was in entering the city before that gate house
> was
> > fully taken. Trap or no trap, that is just begging for trouble.
> >
> > Wright
>
> But I had an impression the whole attack on the Taglios Territory was
> unprepared. Thay had everything thay needed to win, and if not they could
> wait a couple of years.
> And of course the great mistake Sleepy did, in my opinion, was to let
ALL
> the wizards fly to the gate when they were so close to Taglios.
>
> Mocker
>
>
> =======================================================================
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> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
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From: "Marcin Welnicki" <szyderca@poczta.onet.pl>
Subject: Odp: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 15 Nov 2000 21:39:16 +0100
----- > As for the wizards going to Mogaba's tower where the big cluster
happened
> (if thats what ya mean by the gate) with the shadows. Quite true that
would
> have been the big mistake, but i'm not entirely sure Sleepy okayed that.
I
> think she did and if so you are definately right. Cause that set the
stage
> for Tobo & Lady not being able to just blow the gate house, where Sleepy
> died and the company got cut in half, to splinters.
>
> Something else that bugged me... and correct me if I'm wrong. But didn't
it
> say that when sleepy entered they controlled stretches of the wall but not
> the gate house? And how high was the wall?
>
> Wright
>
Yeah the Mogaba's room situation bugged me too, but saying 'the gate' I
meant the Shadowgate, when there was that big battle with Mogaba( when Swan
and Blade got killed).
Mocker
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From: "Wright Frazier" <khelek@cioe.com>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 15 Nov 2000 15:59:44 -0500
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 3:39 PM
>
> ----- > As for the wizards going to Mogaba's tower where the big cluster
> happened
> > (if thats what ya mean by the gate) with the shadows. Quite true that
> would
> > have been the big mistake, but i'm not entirely sure Sleepy okayed that.
> I
> > think she did and if so you are definately right. Cause that set the
> stage
> > for Tobo & Lady not being able to just blow the gate house, where Sleepy
> > died and the company got cut in half, to splinters.
> >
> > Something else that bugged me... and correct me if I'm wrong. But
didn't
> it
> > say that when sleepy entered they controlled stretches of the wall but
not
> > the gate house? And how high was the wall?
> >
> > Wright
> >
> Yeah the Mogaba's room situation bugged me too, but saying 'the gate'
I
> meant the Shadowgate, when there was that big battle with Mogaba( when
Swan
> and Blade got killed).
>
> Mocker
>
Ahhh that one, that was a cluster. Its a toss up between the two.
Wright
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From: Steve Harris <harrissg@SLU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 15 Nov 2000 15:18:59 -0600
Jay,
> > Spoiler Space
> >
> > /.,'
> > .,,;,;
> > \
> > './.\
> > '.\
> > .\
> > ]'.
> > \\
> > ./\
> > ./\
> > ?.\
> >
> > .\
> > './\
> > .
> > .\
> > .\
> > /.\
> > .\
> > /.\
> > /.\
> > /./\
> > .\
> > .\\
You say,
"I have to disagree about Sleepy being a bad Captain at all. Remember, she
kept the company hidden under Catcher's nose for a lot of years during the
captivity. "
Ah, but I'm not criticizing Sleepy as Captain--only as WarLeader. She
did wonderfully at Captaining the Company through the hard years in
Taglios and staging the rescue.
Rather, I criticize her strategic decision to take Taglios and her
tactical plans in doing so--that's where she failed abjectly.
"How many assaults on cities did Croaker lead? Wtat made
attacking Taglios a bad idea?"
Only one, his biggest disater: Dejagore. What made attacking Taglios a
bad idea was that there was no strategic need to do so. Maybe the
Prahbindrah Drah wanted Taglios attacked, but she didn't have anything
to hire the BC with; it was really Sleepy's idea.
"Croaker's lack of planning and playing
everything as it came led to the Dejagore disaster."
I don't agree--he misplayed Dejagore, but it wasn't through lack of
planning: He had it planned out quite well; it's just that the
opposition was a bit tougher than he expected, and his forces were a bit
weaker than he'd anticipated. Had one platoon held instead of
breakiing, he'd have won a complete victory there.
Still, he *did* fail to allow for extra weakness on his side and extra
strength on the opposition--and it cost him big. That's not in keeping
with Company traditional tactics, which emphasize flexibility and
deceptive tactics, allowing attacks to take place in overwhelming strength.
Even so, Dejagore was not as big a disaster for the BC as Taglios
was--he had a reserve (Lady's troops) which just didn't make it on the
scene in time, and that reserve eventually came to the rescue, since
Croaker had the savvy to secure a safe place for his remaining troops,
inside Dejagore. Sleepy had no strategic reserve and no safe
haven--another blunder. (Oh, she had Croaker and his cronies, but they
weren't enough to turn the tide; and there was no haven to come to the
rescue of.)
Steve
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From: Steve Harris <harrissg@SLU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 15 Nov 2000 15:28:37 -0600
Wright,
I agree with you here:
"historically speaking there is no good way to assault a city with a
wall, that is why such things _ALWAYS_ resulted in horrible sackings and
butcherings if the city resisted."
Sleepy ought to have known that; hadn't she read the chronicles? Or
maybe she hadn't read them carefully for military tactics.
Point is, you *don't* go for a bitterly hostile walled city unless you
have no choice: You subvert, you co-opt, you make treaty, you sneak in
sabateours, you lay long-term siege--*anything* but frontal assualt, if
you possibly can. What was eating Sleepy that she had to get in *now*?
Couldn't wait for, say, the populace to be unanimous in being against
the Protector? For traitors to subvert 'Catcher's entire garrison? For
setting up a shadow government with the Prahbrindrah Drah as visible
head, just outside the walls? For waiting for 'Catcher to make a
mistake and expose herself?
Another choice altogher: Just lay in crops in the erstwhile Shadowland
and rusticate; forget 'Catcher!
That is why Sleepy has to be seen as incompetent in the handling of the
War for Taglios.
Steve
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From: "Wright Frazier" <khelek@cioe.com>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 15 Nov 2000 16:46:17 -0500
> Wright,
>
> I agree with you here:
>
> "historically speaking there is no good way to assault a city with a
> wall, that is why such things _ALWAYS_ resulted in horrible sackings and
> butcherings if the city resisted."
>
> Sleepy ought to have known that; hadn't she read the chronicles? Or
> maybe she hadn't read them carefully for military tactics.
>
> Point is, you *don't* go for a bitterly hostile walled city unless you
> have no choice: You subvert, you co-opt, you make treaty, you sneak in
> sabateours, you lay long-term siege--*anything* but frontal assualt, if
> you possibly can. What was eating Sleepy that she had to get in *now*?
> Couldn't wait for, say, the populace to be unanimous in being against
> the Protector? For traitors to subvert 'Catcher's entire garrison? For
> setting up a shadow government with the Prahbrindrah Drah as visible
> head, just outside the walls? For waiting for 'Catcher to make a
> mistake and expose herself?
>
> Another choice altogher: Just lay in crops in the erstwhile Shadowland
> and rusticate; forget 'Catcher!
>
> That is why Sleepy has to be seen as incompetent in the handling of the
> War for Taglios.
>
> Steve
Why did she have to go after Taglios so quick? Because her army was about
to melt away. Remember, the various companies in the Company had only
signed on for a year in the field. That doesn't leave time for a protracted
siege.
Further even a protracted siege is incredibly dangerous. You have to feed
yourself off of the land, disease is a huge killer as discipline gets lax,
and Mogaba had a huge man power pool to draw on and he was the kinda hard
case who would level a section of the city _JUST_ for use as a training
ground. Lastly, they couldn't starve them out. Sleepy had no brown water
navy to blockade the river traffic of Taglios, so food could be brought in
from up river or down.
As for subverting. Again, not an option as Kina was influencing everyone to
stand against the Company.
Sabatague: Hard to do when you got 2 very competent people leading the other
side (Singh & Mogaba).
The Companies objective in this was simple...pay back the traitors. She
mined the Plain for the wealth for the Black Company to hire its own company
of mercenaries (the Children of the Dead) with the Black Company as its
commanding officers. Those folks weren't really Black Company, they were
people the real Company had hired to fight. Best shown by the fact again
that the Children of the Dead were at the ends of their contracts for field
service.
So no, she couldn't wait if she wanted to get Mogaba & Taglios. She had to
do it then.
Wright
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From: Jay DeSimone <jdesimon1@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 15 Nov 2000 16:54:18 -0500
> > Spoiler Space
> >
> > /.,'
> > .,,;,;
> > \
> > './.\
> > '.\
> > .\
> > ]'.
> > \\
> > ./\
> > ./\
> > ?.\
> >
> > .\
> > './\
> > .
> > .\
> > .\
> > /.\
> > .\
> > /.\
> > /.\
> > /./\
> > .\
> > .\\
"How many assaults on cities did Croaker lead?"
"Only one, his biggest disater: Dejagore. "
I think he led several. He had to conquer the fortress on the other side
of the ford from Taglios, along with all the cities/towns on the way to
Dejagore, even if they are not all named. Even Lady mentions in her annals
that Croaker's playing the odds finally did him in.
Jay
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jay DeSimone <jdesimon1@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 15 Nov 2000 16:59:23 -0500
Another choice altogher: Just lay in crops in the erstwhile Shadowland
and rusticate; forget 'Catcher!
Steve
But would Catcher forget them? She wouldn't want them just hanging out with an idle army...
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From: "Marcin Welnicki" <szyderca@poczta.onet.pl>
Subject: Odp: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 15 Nov 2000 23:24:53 +0100
>
>
>
> Another choice altogher: Just lay in crops in the erstwhile Shadowland
> and rusticate; forget 'Catcher!
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> But would Catcher forget them? She wouldn't want them just hanging out
with an idle army...
>
> At the time the Company was at the Grove of Doom( just before the battle
with Mogaba) Catcher was not a problem.
Mocker
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From: Steve Harris <harrissg@SLU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 15 Nov 2000 17:24:14 -0600
Wright,
SpoilerSpace
//\/?
/
?
/?
\/?
/
?\
/?\
/?\
/
?
?
/
\]
'/
?
?
'./\
'/
|?
?
?
?\
']/\
'/\
/\
/
\
'/
?
"As for subverting. Again, not an option as Kina was influencing
everyone to
stand against the Company."
And if she'd waited a very little bit, that wouldn't have been a problem
any longer. Maybe she didn't know Croaker was going to take out Kina?
She should have--that's her job as WarLeader. She should have been in
constant communication with him.
"The Companies objective in this was simple...pay back the traitors."
Not a good strategic reason for war--most especially against a hardened target.
"Sleepy had no brown water
navy to blockade the river traffic of Taglios"
Another reason for waiting. If she just *had* to get Taglios, she
should have built up the necessary forces more slowly and more
completely, going back to the Land of Undying Shadows (or whatever) to
hire her mercs only when the time was ripe.
Steve
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From: "Tim McDowell" <mcdowelt@izzyspizza.com>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 15 Nov 2000 17:34:10 -0800
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 1:59 PM
>
>
>
> Another choice altogher: Just lay in crops in the erstwhile Shadowland
> and rusticate; forget 'Catcher!
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> But would Catcher forget them? She wouldn't want them just hanging out
with an idle army...
>
By the time of the assault on the city, was not SoulCatcher the prisoner
of the Company? And BooBoo impersonating her with the Goblin-thing.
One of the times Croaker and the wizards went back to the ShadowGate was
to take SoulCatcher to the caves of ice for 'safe' storage.
Tim
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From: "Tim McDowell" <mcdowelt@izzyspizza.com>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 15 Nov 2000 17:28:05 -0800
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 3:24 PM
> Wright,
>
> SpoilerSpace
>
> //\/?
> /
> ?
> /?
> \/?
> /
> ?\
> /?\
> /?\
> /
> ?
> ?
> /
> \]
> '/
> ?
> ?
> './\
> '/
> |?
> ?
> ?
> ?\
> ']/\
> '/\
> /\
> /
> \
> '/
> ?
>
> "As for subverting. Again, not an option as Kina was influencing
> everyone to
> stand against the Company."
>
> And if she'd waited a very little bit, that wouldn't have been a problem
> any longer. Maybe she didn't know Croaker was going to take out Kina?
> She should have--that's her job as WarLeader. She should have been in
> constant communication with him.
>
> Steve
Croaker commented several times that he did not know what Sleepy had
planned. She was keeping some things very close to her and her general
staff.
Croaker also says that he never told anyone what he was planning. I
believe that at one point he states that even he doesn't know what he's
planning because it's buried so deep.
Tim
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Stacey Harris <harrissg@slu.edu>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 16 Nov 2000 01:51:05 -0600
Tim,
"Croaker also says that he never told anyone what he was planning. I
believe that at one point he states that even he doesn't know what he's
planning because it's buried so deep."
A fault of Sleepy's: When Croaker had a similar situation with Lady, he
forced her to come clean--own up or go to the 'gators with him and all
the crew. That was one of the ways in which Sleepy did not do her
job--letting Croaker get away with plans of his own, that she was not
privy to.
Steve
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From: "Wright Frazier" <khelek@cioe.com>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 16 Nov 2000 08:54:43 -0500
> SpoilerSpace
>
> //\/?
> /
> ?
> /?
> \/?
> /
> ?\
> /?\
> /?\
> /
> ?
> ?
> /
> \]
> '/
> ?
> ?
> './\
> '/
> |?
> ?
> ?
> ?\
> ']/\
> '/\
> /\
> /
> \
> '/
> ?
>
> "As for subverting. Again, not an option as Kina was influencing
> everyone to
> stand against the Company."
>
> And if she'd waited a very little bit, that wouldn't have been a problem
> any longer. Maybe she didn't know Croaker was going to take out Kina?
> She should have--that's her job as WarLeader. She should have been in
> constant communication with him.
>
> "The Companies objective in this was simple...pay back the traitors."
>
> Not a good strategic reason for war--most especially against a hardened
target.
>
> "Sleepy had no brown water
> navy to blockade the river traffic of Taglios"
>
> Another reason for waiting. If she just *had* to get Taglios, she
> should have built up the necessary forces more slowly and more
> completely, going back to the Land of Undying Shadows (or whatever) to
> hire her mercs only when the time was ripe.
>
You are missing the point. She did not have the time to wait. Her army was
going home cause its contract was up. It was either do it now, or don't do
it at all.
And revenge wasn't the sole motive for taking Taglios but it was a big one.
In Taglios they had to get:
1) Mogaba
2) Eliminate the threat at their back (Singh raising an army again to come
after them)
3) Get Goblin
It wasn't figured out till fairly late in the game that the Spear was
connected to Goblin, and over his last few years, One-Eye had really attuned
it to Goblin. They needed him and he was in the city.
Wright
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From: "Wright Frazier" <khelek@cioe.com>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: (glencook-fans) SPOILER on Soldiers Live
Date: 16 Nov 2000 08:56:01 -0500
> >
> >
> > Another choice altogher: Just lay in crops in the erstwhile Shadowland
> > and rusticate; forget 'Catcher!
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
> >
> > But would Catcher forget them? She wouldn't want them just hanging out
> with an idle army...
> >
> By the time of the assault on the city, was not SoulCatcher the prisoner
> of the Company? And BooBoo impersonating her with the Goblin-thing.
> One of the times Croaker and the wizards went back to the ShadowGate
was
> to take SoulCatcher to the caves of ice for 'safe' storage.
>
Mogaba would not have left them alone. He only started getting the "lets
get out of dodge" idea when the war started really going against him. Plus
with Kina influencing things, others would have gone after them as well.
Wright
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From: "Marcin Welnicki" <szyderca@poczta.onet.pl>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Death of another sort
Date: 17 Nov 2000 17:13:50 +0100
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From: "Marcin Welnicki" <szyderca@poczta.onet.pl>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Death of another sort
Date: 17 Nov 2000 17:14:14 +0100
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From: "Marcin Welnicki" <szyderca@poczta.onet.pl>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Was I deleted from the list?
Date: 18 Nov 2000 23:58:37 +0100
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I don't get any mails from the list. Was I deleted from it?
Mocker
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From: Michael Scholl <mdscholl@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Was I deleted from the list?
Date: 19 Nov 2000 08:10:20 -0800 (PST)
--- Marcin Welnicki <szyderca@poczta.onet.pl> wrote:
> I don't get any mails from the list. Was I
> deleted from it?
>
> Mocker
>
Marcin,
I'm getting your posts okay. Sometimes there are
quiet periods.
Michael
__________________________________________________
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http://calendar.yahoo.com/
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From: "Marcin Welnicki" <szyderca@poczta.onet.pl>
Subject: Odp: (glencook-fans) Was I deleted from the list?
Date: 19 Nov 2000 21:54:17 +0100
> I'm getting your posts okay. Sometimes there are
> quiet periods.
>
> Michael
Thanks for replying
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From: "Joseph McGrath" <jomcgrath@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Was I deleted from the list?
Date: 20 Nov 2000 01:10:24 -0000
o.k , i was just thinking about how funny it was when Ivy finaly said
somthing other than Hi! My names Ivy. "Ya havta to remember to eat, that's
what you got to hang onto.....Cook is so cool because he's so low key in his
humor.....
Joseph
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 4:10 PM
>
> --- Marcin Welnicki <szyderca@poczta.onet.pl> wrote:
> > I don't get any mails from the list. Was I
> > deleted from it?
> >
> > Mocker
> >
>
> Marcin,
>
> I'm getting your posts okay. Sometimes there are
> quiet periods.
>
> Michael
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays!
> http://calendar.yahoo.com/
>
> =======================================================================
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> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
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From: Malik Coates <malikcoates@flashmail.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Was I deleted from the list?
Date: 20 Nov 2000 13:40:34 -0800
What the heck are you talking about?
Joseph McGrath wrote:
> o.k , i was just thinking about how funny it was when Ivy finaly said
> somthing other than Hi! My names Ivy. "Ya havta to remember to eat, that's
> what you got to hang onto.....Cook is so cool because he's so low key in his
> humor.....
> Joseph
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael Scholl <mdscholl@yahoo.com>
> To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 4:10 PM
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Was I deleted from the list?
>
>
>> --- Marcin Welnicki <szyderca@poczta.onet.pl> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't get any mails from the list. Was I
>>> deleted from it?
>>>
>>> Mocker
>>>
>> Marcin,
>>
>> I'm getting your posts okay. Sometimes there are
>> quiet periods.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays!
>> http://calendar.yahoo.com/
>>
>> =======================================================================
>> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
>
>
> =======================================================================
> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
>
>
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From: "Joseph McGrath" <jomcgrath@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Was I deleted from the list?
Date: 20 Nov 2000 18:43:27 -0000
O.k. Malik, Sometimes nobody is writing anything on the list so it seems as
though you have been deleted. So what i did was put something through so
that you could see things are still cool with the list. What i was talking
about was something from the Garrett series, Deadly Quicksilver Lies. (pg.
69) I've read them all a bunch of times. I just felt like seeing how many
people out there were hip to the Garrett series and also were on the list.
Guess i was being too flashy, sorry.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 9:40 PM
> What the heck are you talking about?
>
> Joseph McGrath wrote:
>
> > o.k , i was just thinking about how funny it was when Ivy finaly said
> > somthing other than Hi! My names Ivy. "Ya havta to remember to eat,
that's
> > what you got to hang onto.....Cook is so cool because he's so low key in
his
> > humor.....
> > Joseph
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Michael Scholl <mdscholl@yahoo.com>
> > To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 4:10 PM
> > Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Was I deleted from the list?
> >
> >
> >> --- Marcin Welnicki <szyderca@poczta.onet.pl> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I don't get any mails from the list. Was I
> >>> deleted from it?
> >>>
> >>> Mocker
> >>>
> >> Marcin,
> >>
> >> I'm getting your posts okay. Sometimes there are
> >> quiet periods.
> >>
> >> Michael
> >>
> >> __________________________________________________
> >> Do You Yahoo!?
> >> Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays!
> >> http://calendar.yahoo.com/
> >>
> >> =======================================================================
> >> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> >> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> >
> >
> >
> > =======================================================================
> > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> =======================================================================
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> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
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From: "Joseph McGrath" <jomcgrath@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Was I deleted from the list?
Date: 20 Nov 2000 18:45:33 -0000
Oops my mistake, pg . 112
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 9:40 PM
> What the heck are you talking about?
>
> Joseph McGrath wrote:
>
> > o.k , i was just thinking about how funny it was when Ivy finaly said
> > somthing other than Hi! My names Ivy. "Ya havta to remember to eat,
that's
> > what you got to hang onto.....Cook is so cool because he's so low key in
his
> > humor.....
> > Joseph
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Michael Scholl <mdscholl@yahoo.com>
> > To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 4:10 PM
> > Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Was I deleted from the list?
> >
> >
> >> --- Marcin Welnicki <szyderca@poczta.onet.pl> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I don't get any mails from the list. Was I
> >>> deleted from it?
> >>>
> >>> Mocker
> >>>
> >> Marcin,
> >>
> >> I'm getting your posts okay. Sometimes there are
> >> quiet periods.
> >>
> >> Michael
> >>
> >> __________________________________________________
> >> Do You Yahoo!?
> >> Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays!
> >> http://calendar.yahoo.com/
> >>
> >> =======================================================================
> >> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> >> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> >
> >
> >
> > =======================================================================
> > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> =======================================================================
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From: Malik Coates <malikcoates@flashmail.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Was I deleted from the list?
Date: 20 Nov 2000 17:32:09 -0800
Umm, Ok, I get it.
Malik
Joseph McGrath wrote:
>
> O.k. Malik, Sometimes nobody is writing anything on the list so it seems as
> though you have been deleted. So what i did was put something through so
> that you could see things are still cool with the list. What i was talking
> about was something from the Garrett series, Deadly Quicksilver Lies. (pg.
> 69) I've read them all a bunch of times. I just felt like seeing how many
> people out there were hip to the Garrett series and also were on the list.
> Guess i was being too flashy, sorry.
[stuff deleted]
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From: Pat & Ellen Hannum <hanmac@uswest.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Was I deleted from the list?
Date: 20 Nov 2000 18:55:41 -0800
Joseph McGrath wrote:
> O.k. Malik, Sometimes nobody is writing anything on the list so it seems as
> though you have been deleted. So what i did was put something through so
> that you could see things are still cool with the list. What i was talking
> about was something from the Garrett series, Deadly Quicksilver Lies. (pg.
> 69) I've read them all a bunch of times. I just felt like seeing how many
> people out there were hip to the Garrett series and also were on the list.
> Guess i was being too flashy, sorry.
Hey, caught it laughed, but didn't want to tell you it's really later in the
book.
The humor in Garrett is better than most, it is low key and for us fantasy,
sword
and bow boys, it's a wonderful parody of the "buddy" quests and for the Murder
mystery fans it's a wonderful play on Raymond Chandler.
Pat
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From: Igor Filippov <igor@osc.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Was I deleted from the list?
Date: 20 Nov 2000 22:49:25 -0500 (EST)
I always thought Garrett series were a kind of a "remake" on
Rex Stout's Niro Wolf novels, not Chandler's...
Igor
On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Pat & Ellen Hannum wrote:
>
>
> Joseph McGrath wrote:
>
> > O.k. Malik, Sometimes nobody is writing anything on the list so it seems as
> > though you have been deleted. So what i did was put something through so
> > that you could see things are still cool with the list. What i was talking
> > about was something from the Garrett series, Deadly Quicksilver Lies. (pg.
> > 69) I've read them all a bunch of times. I just felt like seeing how many
> > people out there were hip to the Garrett series and also were on the list.
> > Guess i was being too flashy, sorry.
>
> Hey, caught it laughed, but didn't want to tell you it's really later in the
> book.
> The humor in Garrett is better than most, it is low key and for us fantasy,
> sword
> and bow boys, it's a wonderful parody of the "buddy" quests and for the Murder
> mystery fans it's a wonderful play on Raymond Chandler.
>
> Pat
>
>
> =======================================================================
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From: "Michele Riccio" <mr1@rcosta.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Was I deleted from the list?
Date: 21 Nov 2000 07:35:49 -0500
It's a little of both. The Dead Man has many similarities to Nero
Wolf (except the yellow pajamas & flower obsession), but Garrett
is more like a Chandler detective than Wolf's sidekick Archie
Goodwin.
later
Michele
On 20 Nov 2000, at 22:49, Igor Filippov wrote
Date sent: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 22:49:25 -0500 (EST)
Send reply to: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> I always thought Garrett series were a kind of a "remake" on
> Rex Stout's Niro Wolf novels, not Chandler's...
>
> Igor
>
>
> On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Pat & Ellen Hannum wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Joseph McGrath wrote:
> >
> > > O.k. Malik, Sometimes nobody is writing anything on the list so it
> > > seems as though you have been deleted. So what i did was put
> > > something through so that you could see things are still cool with
> > > the list. What i was talking about was something from the Garrett
> > > series, Deadly Quicksilver Lies. (pg. 69) I've read them all a
> > > bunch of times. I just felt like seeing how many people out there
> > > were hip to the Garrett series and also were on the list. Guess i
> > > was being too flashy, sorry.
> >
> > Hey, caught it laughed, but didn't want to tell you it's really
> > later in the book. The humor in Garrett is better than most, it is
> > low key and for us fantasy, sword and bow boys, it's a wonderful
> > parody of the "buddy" quests and for the Murder mystery fans it's a
> > wonderful play on Raymond Chandler.
> >
> > Pat
> >
> >
> > ====================================================================
> > ===
> > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> >
>
>
> ======================================================================
> =
> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
Michele Riccio
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From: stalley@visi.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Was I deleted from the list?
Date: 21 Nov 2000 09:29:04 -0600 (CST)
When they talk about Chandler, who are they specifacally referring to?
Tim
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From: "Michele Riccio" <mr1@rcosta.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Was I deleted from the list?
Date: 21 Nov 2000 08:19:15 -0500
Speaking only for myself, Raymond Chandler (author of "the Long
Goodbye", "The Maltese Falcon", etc) and his fictional detective
Philip Marlowe.
M
On 21 Nov 2000, at 9:29, stalley@visi.com wrote
Date sent: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 09:29:04 -0600 (CST)
Send reply to: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> When they talk about Chandler, who are they specifacally referring to?
>
>
> Tim
>
> ======================================================================
> =
> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
Michele Riccio
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From: Jake Kesinger <kesinger@math.ttu.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Was I deleted from the list?
Date: 21 Nov 2000 10:00:42 -0600 (CST)
On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, Michele Riccio wrote:
>
> Speaking only for myself, Raymond Chandler (author of "the Long
> Goodbye", "The Maltese Falcon", etc) and his fictional detective
> Philip Marlowe.
Well, _The_Maltese_Falcon_ is by Dashiel Hammett. Both Hammett and
Chandler do the hard-boiled-detective thing that Cook does with
Garrett.
I actually think Hammett's Continental Op detectives are more Garrettesque
than Marlow, but the curious reader should read both authors.
==Jake
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From: "Michele Riccio" <mr1@rcosta.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Was I deleted from the list?
Date: 21 Nov 2000 08:37:40 -0500
Bother, that's what I get for relying on the memory of what I read in
high school. Looks like I should read them again (what hardship!).
Thanks.
M
On 21 Nov 2000, at 10:00, Jake Kesinger wrote
Date sent: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 10:00:42 -0600 (CST)
Send reply to: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, Michele Riccio wrote:
>
> >
> > Speaking only for myself, Raymond Chandler (author of "the Long
> > Goodbye", "The Maltese Falcon", etc) and his fictional detective
> > Philip Marlowe.
>
> Well, _The_Maltese_Falcon_ is by Dashiel Hammett. Both Hammett and
> Chandler do the hard-boiled-detective thing that Cook does with
> Garrett.
>
> I actually think Hammett's Continental Op detectives are more
> Garrettesque than Marlow, but the curious reader should read both
> authors.
>
> ==Jake
>
>
> ======================================================================
> =
> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
Michele Riccio
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From: "Richard Gruver" <richgru@att.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Was I deleted from the list?
Date: 21 Nov 2000 12:19:50 -0800
It's cool to hear some discussion of something besides the Black company
series for a change.While I love BC, I don't know what I look forward to
more, A new BC or a new Garrett. I get more chuckles with Garrett than with
the later episodes of the BC. And I heartily recommend reading and
re-reading all of both Hammet and Chandler and maybe even throw in a dash of
Mickey Spillane (Garrett definitely has more than touch of Mike Hammer's
libido in his make up).
Richard Gruver
----- Original Message -----
> Bother, that's what I get for relying on the memory of what I read in
> high school. Looks like I should read them again (what hardship!).
> Thanks.
>
> M
>
> > > Speaking only for myself, Raymond Chandler (author of "the Long
> > > Goodbye", "The Maltese Falcon", etc) and his fictional detective
> > > Philip Marlowe.
> >
> > Well, _The_Maltese_Falcon_ is by Dashiel Hammett. Both Hammett and
> > Chandler do the hard-boiled-detective thing that Cook does with
> > Garrett.
> >
> > I actually think Hammett's Continental Op detectives are more
> > Garrettesque than Marlow, but the curious reader should read both
> > authors.
> >
> > ==Jake
> >
> >
> > ======================================================================
> > =
> > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
>
> Michele Riccio
>
> =======================================================================
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> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
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From: "Joseph McGrath" <jomcgrath@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Was I deleted from the list?
Date: 21 Nov 2000 11:04:21 -0000
In the detective novel genre, ...... Chandler rules, I've read em all. It's
one of the reasons why i love the, "all," Garrett novels. Raymond
Chandler... just go to any, "reputable," book store and get the complete
selection. "I envy you," It's the same thing i say to anyone who hasn't read
Tolkien yet. Wow, to be able to read Tolkien for the first time.....
Joseph
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 3:29 PM
> When they talk about Chandler, who are they specifacally referring to?
>
>
> Tim
>
> =======================================================================
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From: "Michele Riccio" <mr1@rcosta.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Was I deleted from the list?
Date: 21 Nov 2000 11:54:08 -0500
For a long time I thought there were two different authors named
Glen Cook, one who wrote the Garrett books, and another who
wrote the Black Company books.
The humor in the Garrett books is definitely more pronounced
(although, I love Croaker's sarcastic outlook). I'm quite fond of the
Grollish triplets, Doris, Marsha, and (bother, I'm afraid to guess
now...) the little guy.
M
On 21 Nov 2000, at 12:19, Richard Gruver wrote
Date sent: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:19:50 -0800
Send reply to: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> It's cool to hear some discussion of something besides the Black
> company series for a change.While I love BC, I don't know what I look
> forward to more, A new BC or a new Garrett. I get more chuckles with
> Garrett than with the later episodes of the BC. And I heartily
> recommend reading and re-reading all of both Hammet and Chandler and
> maybe even throw in a dash of Mickey Spillane (Garrett definitely has
> more than touch of Mike Hammer's libido in his make up). Richard
> Gruver ----- Original Message -----
>
> > Bother, that's what I get for relying on the memory of what I read
> > in high school. Looks like I should read them again (what
> > hardship!). Thanks.
> >
> > M
> >
> > > > Speaking only for myself, Raymond Chandler (author of "the Long
> > > > Goodbye", "The Maltese Falcon", etc) and his fictional detective
> > > > Philip Marlowe.
> > >
> > > Well, _The_Maltese_Falcon_ is by Dashiel Hammett. Both Hammett
> > > and Chandler do the hard-boiled-detective thing that Cook does
> > > with Garrett.
> > >
> > > I actually think Hammett's Continental Op detectives are more
> > > Garrettesque than Marlow, but the curious reader should read both
> > > authors.
> > >
> > > ==Jake
> > >
> > >
> > > ==================================================================
> > > ==== =
> > > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> > > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> >
> >
> > Michele Riccio
> >
> > ====================================================================
> > ===
> > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
>
> ======================================================================
> =
> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
Michele Riccio
Law Offices of Richard M. Costa
18 Tremont Street, Suite 601
Boston, MA 02108
617-742-4444 x 115
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From: Dave Roberts <daver@texoma.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Was I deleted from the list?
Date: 21 Nov 2000 13:37:27 -0600
At 11:54 AM 11/21/00 -0500, you wrote:
>For a long time I thought there were two different authors named
>Glen Cook, one who wrote the Garrett books, and another who
>wrote the Black Company books.
>
>The humor in the Garrett books is definitely more pronounced
>(although, I love Croaker's sarcastic outlook). I'm quite fond of the
>Grollish triplets, Doris, Marsha, and (bother, I'm afraid to guess
>now...) the little guy.
>
>M
>
Dojango.
Dave Roberts
daver@texoma.net
A witty saying proves nothing.
Voltaire
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From: "Michele Riccio" <mr1@rcosta.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Was I deleted from the list?
Date: 21 Nov 2000 12:24:09 -0500
Thanks!
On 21 Nov 2000, at 13:37, Dave Roberts wrote
Date sent: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:37:27 -0600
Send reply to: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> At 11:54 AM 11/21/00 -0500, you wrote:
>
I'm quite fond of the Grollish triplets, Doris, Marsha, and (bother, I'm afraid to
guess now...) the little guy.
> >
> >M
> >
>
> Dojango.
>
> Dave Roberts
> daver@texoma.net
>
> A witty saying proves nothing.
> Voltaire
>
>
> ======================================================================
> =
> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
Michele Riccio
Law Offices of Richard M. Costa
18 Tremont Street, Suite 601
Boston, MA 02108
617-742-4444 x 115
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From: Douglas Bishop <dougbishop@yahoo.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) More like Travis McGee, I think.
Date: 21 Nov 2000 13:27:38 -0800 (PST)
--- stalley@visi.com wrote:
> When they talk about Chandler, who are they
> specifacally referring to?
Raymond Chandler. As in "The Big Sleep".
I always thought the Garrett character was more in
line with John D. MacDonald's Travis McGee character.
People come to him wanting something and then he
wanders around until the bad guys do something to draw
attention to themselves.
They're both cynical, have lots of friends, expect to
be overpaid and sometimes get it (sometimes nothing at
all). And the humor has a similar dry quality.
And, of course, beautiful women throw themselves in
his path.
Another similarity is that MacDonald's books all have
a color in the title (such as One Fearful Yellow Eye
and The Girl in the Plain Brown Wrapper) while Cook's
all have a metal in the title.
If you've never read one of MacDonald's books, pick
one up. See if you agree.
D.
__________________________________________________
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From: Sam Roberts <Sam.Roberts@apollogrp.edu>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Travis McGee and Glen's new mystery novel
Date: 21 Nov 2000 14:33:28 -0700
I heartily agree. Running out of new Garrett books is the primary reason I
recently turned back to rereading some of the Travis McGee books I hadn't
thought about in years. I'm halfway through The Deep Blue Good-Bye and
loving it. Travis lives on a houseboat called the Busted Flush that he won
in a poker game. How can you not dig him?
This is also the reason I'm really looking forward to the mystery novel Glen
Cook keeps telling people that he's writing. Does anyone remember if he had
an estimated date on that?
Sam
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 2:28 PM
--- stalley@visi.com wrote:
> When they talk about Chandler, who are they
> specifacally referring to?
Raymond Chandler. As in "The Big Sleep".
I always thought the Garrett character was more in
line with John D. MacDonald's Travis McGee character.
People come to him wanting something and then he
wanders around until the bad guys do something to draw
attention to themselves.
They're both cynical, have lots of friends, expect to
be overpaid and sometimes get it (sometimes nothing at
all). And the humor has a similar dry quality.
And, of course, beautiful women throw themselves in
his path.
Another similarity is that MacDonald's books all have
a color in the title (such as One Fearful Yellow Eye
and The Girl in the Plain Brown Wrapper) while Cook's
all have a metal in the title.
If you've never read one of MacDonald's books, pick
one up. See if you agree.
D.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/
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From: "Tim McDowell" <mcdowelt@izzyspizza.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Was I deleted from the list?
Date: 21 Nov 2000 16:58:59 -0800
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 11:37 AM
> At 11:54 AM 11/21/00 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >For a long time I thought there were two different authors named
> >Glen Cook, one who wrote the Garrett books, and another who
> >wrote the Black Company books.
> >
> >The humor in the Garrett books is definitely more pronounced
> >(although, I love Croaker's sarcastic outlook). I'm quite fond of the
> >Grollish triplets, Doris, Marsha, and (bother, I'm afraid to guess
> >now...) the little guy.
> >
> >M
> >
>
> Dojango.
>
The triplets with three different mothers. (i never did figure that part
out.)
> Dave Roberts
> daver@texoma.net
>
> A witty saying proves nothing.
> Voltaire
>
>
> =======================================================================
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> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
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From: Bill Curran <zarathos@vegas.infi.net>
Subject: (glencook-fans) New to list
Date: 21 Nov 2000 17:05:14 -0800
Im new to the mailing list so HELLO..........
Anyway, I am hooked on the Black Company books which I am almost done
with Soldier's Live. I havent read any other of Glen Cook's books and
was wondering what would be the next of his books I should try to get a
hold of?
I find it hard reading any other books right now if it doesnt have the
Black Company in it..
Bill
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From: "Horky, Roger" <rhorky@trinity.edu>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) New to list
Date: 21 Nov 2000 19:05:54 -0600
I would recommend the Garrett series. A slightly different 'feel' but
entertaining none the less.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 7:05 PM
Im new to the mailing list so HELLO..........
Anyway, I am hooked on the Black Company books which I am almost done
with Soldier's Live. I havent read any other of Glen Cook's books and
was wondering what would be the next of his books I should try to get a
hold of?
I find it hard reading any other books right now if it doesnt have the
Black Company in it..
Bill
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From: schew@interzone.com (Steve Chew)
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) New to list
Date: 21 Nov 2000 22:33:52 -0500 (EST)
>>Im new to the mailing list so HELLO..........
>>
>>Anyway, I am hooked on the Black Company books which I am almost done
>>with Soldier's Live. I havent read any other of Glen Cook's books and
>>was wondering what would be the next of his books I should try to get a
>>hold of?
>>
>>I find it hard reading any other books right now if it doesnt have the
>>Black Company in it..
>>
>
>I would recommend the Garrett series. A slightly different 'feel' but
>entertaining none the less.
>
While I like the Garrett series, I find them to be totally
different from the Black Company books. They're much more over-the-
top in style, as you might expect from a hard boiled detective in a
strange fantasy universe. So go ahead and give them a shot, but
don't expect anything like the BC.
Unfortunately, almost all of the rest of Cook's repertoire
is out of print. For something close to the BC in style, I'd recommend
the Dread Empire series which is about a different mercenary troop.
It's hard to find though. Another favorite of mine is The Dragon
Never Sleeps which is sci-fi instead of fantasy but one of Cook's
best. The Tower of Fear (fantasy) and A Passage At Arms (sf) are
also very good.
You'll want to peruse used book stores to find them or try
ordering them online.
Steve
--
Steve Chew - schew@interzone.com - http://www.interzone.com
"We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters
will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks
to the Internet, we know this is not true."
-- UC Professor Robert Wilensky
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From: Bill Curran <zarathos@vegas.infi.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) New to list
Date: 21 Nov 2000 21:01:05 -0800
I did plan on hitting some of the used book stores but I know it will
probably take awhile. When looking for the BC books, I never noticed
anything else on the shelf by him.
To be honest I find it hard to get into a book. Overall I havent read too
many books. The only ones that I got addicted to were "Incarnations of
Immortality" and "Blue Adept" series by Pier's Anthony and the BC books by
Cook. I know there is much more out there for me to read but its hard for me
to get into the stories. The BC books just had me hooked all through them
and they just keep getting better...
Steve Chew wrote:
> >>Im new to the mailing list so HELLO..........
> >>
> >>Anyway, I am hooked on the Black Company books which I am almost done
> >>with Soldier's Live. I havent read any other of Glen Cook's books and
> >>was wondering what would be the next of his books I should try to get a
> >>hold of?
> >>
> >>I find it hard reading any other books right now if it doesnt have the
> >>Black Company in it..
> >>
> >
> >I would recommend the Garrett series. A slightly different 'feel' but
> >entertaining none the less.
> >
>
> While I like the Garrett series, I find them to be totally
> different from the Black Company books. They're much more over-the-
> top in style, as you might expect from a hard boiled detective in a
> strange fantasy universe. So go ahead and give them a shot, but
> don't expect anything like the BC.
> Unfortunately, almost all of the rest of Cook's repertoire
> is out of print. For something close to the BC in style, I'd recommend
> the Dread Empire series which is about a different mercenary troop.
> It's hard to find though. Another favorite of mine is The Dragon
> Never Sleeps which is sci-fi instead of fantasy but one of Cook's
> best. The Tower of Fear (fantasy) and A Passage At Arms (sf) are
> also very good.
> You'll want to peruse used book stores to find them or try
> ordering them online.
>
> Steve
>
> --
> Steve Chew - schew@interzone.com - http://www.interzone.com
> "We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters
> will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks
> to the Internet, we know this is not true."
> -- UC Professor Robert Wilensky
>
> =======================================================================
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From: "Marcin Welnicki" <szyderca@poczta.onet.pl>
Subject: Odp: (glencook-fans) New to list
Date: 22 Nov 2000 10:39:59 +0100
> Unfortunately, almost all of the rest of Cook's repertoire
> is out of print. For something close to the BC in style, I'd recommend
> the Dread Empire series which is about a different mercenary troop.
> It's hard to find though.
So it isn't that bad to live in Poland- their are just publishing the
Dread Empire:)
Mocker
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From: "Michele Riccio" <mr1@rcosta.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Was I deleted from the list?
Date: 22 Nov 2000 09:13:31 -0500
I'm sure the list could come up with explanations - from absurd
(three pregnant woman swallowed by a whale then give birth. The
babies are then re-birthed by the whale) to utilitarian (three un-
related kids who hang around with each other so much they are
referred to as "the triplets")
M
happy thanksgiving
> >
> The triplets with three different mothers. (i never did figure
> that part
> out.)
>
> > Dave Roberts
> > daver@texoma.net
> >
> > A witty saying proves nothing.
> > Voltaire
> >
> >
> > ====================================================================
> > ===
> > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> >
>
>
> ======================================================================
> =
> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
Michele Riccio
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From: Wendy Shaffer <wshaffer@uclink4.berkeley.edu>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Opinions on Darkwar series?
Date: 22 Nov 2000 10:47:01 -0800
Browsing in a local bookstore, I came across volumes 2 and 3
of the Darkwar series by Glen Cook. I'd never heard of this one
before. Anybody here read it? Is it any good? Are books 2 and 3
likely to be comprehensible without book 1?
---wendy
Wendy. A. Shaffer
wshaffer@uclink4.berkeley.edu
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From: "Horky, Roger" <rhorky@trinity.edu>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Opinions on Darkwar series?
Date: 22 Nov 2000 12:51:24 -0600
Grab 'em while you can but wait until you complete the set to read them
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 11/22/00 12:47 PM
Browsing in a local bookstore, I came across volumes 2 and 3
of the Darkwar series by Glen Cook. I'd never heard of this one
before. Anybody here read it? Is it any good? Are books 2 and 3
likely to be comprehensible without book 1?
---wendy
Wendy. A. Shaffer
wshaffer@uclink4.berkeley.edu
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From: schew@interzone.com (Steve Chew)
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Opinions on Darkwar series?
Date: 22 Nov 2000 15:28:09 -0500 (EST)
>
> Browsing in a local bookstore, I came across volumes 2 and 3
>of the Darkwar series by Glen Cook. I'd never heard of this one
>before. Anybody here read it? Is it any good? Are books 2 and 3
>likely to be comprehensible without book 1?
>
I read it a while back. It wasn't one of my favorite Cook
series, but I liked it all right. I would recommend that you do read
the first book before the others though since it does a lot of setting
up of the characters and the world they live in. It's a continuous
story, not three independent books.
Steve
--
Steve Chew - schew@interzone.com
"Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana."
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From: "Amy Weathers" <raistlin@zianet.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) New to list
Date: 22 Nov 2000 13:09:22 -0700
-----Original Message-----
>
> So it isn't that bad to live in Poland- their are just publishing the
>Dread Empire:)
>
>Mocker
>
Hmmm. So if I move to Poland, maybe I could finally get my hands on
_October's Baby_
As far as other good books by Cook, I would recommend _The Swordbearer_ .
It is a stand alone book and you should still be able to find it in
circulation. It contains most of the ?basics? for a good fantasy novel;
swords, bad guys, war and a woman! ;)
Amy
>=======================================================================
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> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
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From: "S. Townsend" <ss.townsend@gte.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) New to list
Date: 22 Nov 2000 16:12:09 -0600
Swordbearer is still one of my favorites. It's an early Cook, and when I
talked to him years ago at windycon in Chicago, he was actually a bit
embarrased by it, he thought that it wasn't that good.
It was reissued a few years ago and seems to be pretty plentiful yet.
Amy Weathers wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marcin Welnicki <szyderca@poczta.onet.pl>
> To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>
> Date: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 2:41 AM
> Subject: Odp: (glencook-fans) New to list
>
> >
> > So it isn't that bad to live in Poland- their are just publishing the
> >Dread Empire:)
> >
> >Mocker
> >
> Hmmm. So if I move to Poland, maybe I could finally get my hands on
> _October's Baby_
>
> As far as other good books by Cook, I would recommend _The Swordbearer_ .
> It is a stand alone book and you should still be able to find it in
> circulation. It contains most of the ?basics? for a good fantasy novel;
> swords, bad guys, war and a woman! ;)
>
> Amy
>
> >=======================================================================
> > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> >
>
> =======================================================================
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From: Sam Roberts <Sam.Roberts@apollogrp.edu>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Swordbearer
Date: 22 Nov 2000 15:14:53 -0700
I haven't said anything before because Swordbearer seems to be generally
well liked by folks on this list but I can keep quiet no longer. I hated
it. And boy did I want to like it. I found it a couple of years ago at a
friends house and was horribly excited at finding a previously unknown to me
Glen Cook novel. Maybe my expectations were too high, I don't know, but I
couldn't even finish it. It seemed to me like a wannabe epic story that had
been squeezed down to fit a couple hundred pages and therefore skipped
things like reasonable character development and logical plot progression.
I just didn't care about any of the characters or find anything beyond
standard fantasy fare in the plot. Is anyone else out there with me on this
or should I suck it up and give it another try?
Sam
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 3:12 PM
Swordbearer is still one of my favorites. It's an early Cook, and when I
talked to him years ago at windycon in Chicago, he was actually a bit
embarrased by it, he thought that it wasn't that good.
It was reissued a few years ago and seems to be pretty plentiful yet.
Amy Weathers wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marcin Welnicki <szyderca@poczta.onet.pl>
> To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>
> Date: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 2:41 AM
> Subject: Odp: (glencook-fans) New to list
>
> >
> > So it isn't that bad to live in Poland- their are just publishing the
> >Dread Empire:)
> >
> >Mocker
> >
> Hmmm. So if I move to Poland, maybe I could finally get my hands on
> _October's Baby_
>
> As far as other good books by Cook, I would recommend _The Swordbearer_ .
> It is a stand alone book and you should still be able to find it in
> circulation. It contains most of the ?basics? for a good fantasy novel;
> swords, bad guys, war and a woman! ;)
>
> Amy
>
> >=======================================================================
> > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> >
>
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From: "Joseph McGrath" <jomcgrath@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Swordbearer
Date: 22 Nov 2000 17:52:48 -0000
Well ah yes....
Very well said but i wouldn't say that i hated it. It just seemed more like
a fledgling attempt but i respected it anyway. I mean, I haven't written any
fantasy or tried since 11th grade. I got the feeling that Cook was rushed by
the publisher to get it out in print, or there were other things going on in
his life which prevented him from taking the character developement any
further. For instance that thing in the cave.... Not enough history about
that thing. And the same thing goes for the character Ragi or Bragi (?)
in,"An ill Fate Marshaling." Well not really his character. There wasn't
enough info on the Portals they used to ferry troops in and out of a war
zone. Far and away the BC series and the Garrett series that i have read
have been the best. But! Cook is more developed now with these and more
mature? (Right Glen...? hah)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 10:14 PM
> I haven't said anything before because Swordbearer seems to be generally
> well liked by folks on this list but I can keep quiet no longer. I hated
> it. And boy did I want to like it. I found it a couple of years ago at a
> friends house and was horribly excited at finding a previously unknown to
me
> Glen Cook novel. Maybe my expectations were too high, I don't know, but I
> couldn't even finish it. It seemed to me like a wannabe epic story that
had
> been squeezed down to fit a couple hundred pages and therefore skipped
> things like reasonable character development and logical plot progression.
> I just didn't care about any of the characters or find anything beyond
> standard fantasy fare in the plot. Is anyone else out there with me on
this
> or should I suck it up and give it another try?
>
> Sam
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: S. Townsend [mailto:ss.townsend@gte.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 3:12 PM
> To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) New to list
>
>
> Swordbearer is still one of my favorites. It's an early Cook, and when I
> talked to him years ago at windycon in Chicago, he was actually a bit
> embarrased by it, he thought that it wasn't that good.
>
> It was reissued a few years ago and seems to be pretty plentiful yet.
>
> Amy Weathers wrote:
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Marcin Welnicki <szyderca@poczta.onet.pl>
> > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>
> > Date: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 2:41 AM
> > Subject: Odp: (glencook-fans) New to list
> >
> > >
> > > So it isn't that bad to live in Poland- their are just publishing the
> > >Dread Empire:)
> > >
> > >Mocker
> > >
> > Hmmm. So if I move to Poland, maybe I could finally get my hands on
> > _October's Baby_
> >
> > As far as other good books by Cook, I would recommend _The Swordbearer_
.
> > It is a stand alone book and you should still be able to find it in
> > circulation. It contains most of the ?basics? for a good fantasy novel;
> > swords, bad guys, war and a woman! ;)
> >
> > Amy
> >
> > >=======================================================================
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> > > visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> > >
> >
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>
>
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From: BaronetCorvu@cs.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Swordbearer
Date: 22 Nov 2000 19:03:07 EST
In a message dated 11/22/00 4:17:25 PM Central Standard Time,
Sam.Roberts@apollogrp.edu writes:
> I haven't said anything before because Swordbearer seems to be generally
> well liked by folks on this list but I can keep quiet no longer. I hated
> it.
Sam, you are absolutely correct. The Swordbearer sucks. Glen says so
himself.
Michael W Sweet
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From: Ethesis@aol.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Swordbearer
Date: 22 Nov 2000 21:03:52 EST
In a message dated 11/22/2000 6:05:14 PM Central Standard Time,
BaronetCorvu@cs.com writes:
>
>
> Sam, you are absolutely correct. The Swordbearer sucks. Glen says so
> himself.
Though Glen was harsher on the sequel that didn't get published.
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From: Igor Filippov <igor@osc.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Swordbearer
Date: 22 Nov 2000 21:47:23 -0500 (EST)
Since we seem to have started the line "such-and-such sucks"
I have to say - I couldn't finish "Tower of Fear" even though
I tried to start it twice ...
Igor
On Wed, 22 Nov 2000 Ethesis@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 11/22/2000 6:05:14 PM Central Standard Time,
> BaronetCorvu@cs.com writes:
>
> >
> >
> > Sam, you are absolutely correct. The Swordbearer sucks. Glen says so
> > himself.
>
> Though Glen was harsher on the sequel that didn't get published.
>
>
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From: CLima52184@cs.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Swordbearer
Date: 22 Nov 2000 21:52:48 EST
Has anyone here read David Drake? Do you think Drakes' style is similar
to Cooks?
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From: Richard Chilton <rchilton@auracom.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Swordbearer
Date: 23 Nov 2000 02:24:31 -0400
Igor Filippov wrote:
>
> Since we seem to have started the line "such-and-such sucks"
> I have to say - I couldn't finish "Tower of Fear" even though
> I tried to start it twice ...
>
I enjoyed Tower of Fear - but thought each of the epilogues could have
been a book. Reading it I almost felt I was walking into a movie
halfway through (big battles fought, city conquered) and leaving after
someone whispered to me what happened in the next few scenes and in the
sequel.
It was a different book.
Richard
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From: "Don" <dfgarcia@stic.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Swordbearer
Date: 13 Nov 2000 18:35:00 -0600
Going to reply to more than one message here, so I apologize in advance.
That Said,
Bill, Welcome to the list. I wouldn't read Garrett right away. Save it
until you learn to love the Author as well as the genre. If your looking for
something more BC then go with Tower of Fear. Lots of hard to kill Wizards.
The Dread Empire is very good but as has been said very hard to find. The
later DE books (publishing date) are better written (IMHO) but are
uncompleted without the earlier chronicles. Not to mention that the series
is not completed.
For those of you that hated Tower of Fear, I am saddened. I thought it was a
great read. Sucked me right in. I didn't want it to end. As for the
Swordbearer... I liked it because it was Cook. I could probably read it
again, but it was no classic.
Darkwar was good, but a tough read.
I'm almost done with Dragon Never Sleeps. Damb good book. I Picked it up
used for $3. Can't beat that.
Hey Eric. What happened to the Book of the Month anyway?
Don
"In time, what's deserved always gets served."- COC
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2000 12:24 AM
> Igor Filippov wrote:
> >
> > Since we seem to have started the line "such-and-such sucks"
> > I have to say - I couldn't finish "Tower of Fear" even though
> > I tried to start it twice ...
> >
>
> I enjoyed Tower of Fear - but thought each of the epilogues could have
> been a book. Reading it I almost felt I was walking into a movie
> halfway through (big battles fought, city conquered) and leaving after
> someone whispered to me what happened in the next few scenes and in the
> sequel.
>
> It was a different book.
>
> Richard
>
> =======================================================================
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From: "Don" <dfgarcia@stic.net>
Subject: (glencook-fans) To the List
Date: 13 Nov 2000 18:37:22 -0600
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Happy Thanksgiving Everybody. Get Some Bird!
Don=20
"In time, what's deserved always gets served."- COC
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From: Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) New to list
Date: 23 Nov 2000 02:35:39 -0700
on 11/22/00 1:09 PM, Amy Weathers at raistlin@zianet.com wrote:
> Hmmm. So if I move to Poland, maybe I could finally get my hands on
> _October's Baby_
You don't have to move to Poland. There are several good online Polish
bookstores who will sell you a copy. And you have time, while they are
shipping, to learn Polish! <G>
Look for the Booksellers page of links on the website.
Russia is also publishing Dread Empire. Same deal.
--
Eric Herrmann
<shpshftr@xmission.com>
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From: Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Book-of-the-Month
Date: 23 Nov 2000 02:46:27 -0700
on 11/13/00 5:35 PM, Don at dfgarcia@stic.net wrote:
> Hey Eric. What happened to the Book of the Month anyway?
The October Book-of-the-Month went so well that I hesitated to try and
duplicate it's success. <sarcasm>
I'll take part of the blame for that. I was busy in October and didn't have
a lot of time to moderate the discussion.
Why don't we try again when you finish "Dragon" since that was the book for
October.
As for having another one, I'd say either "Swordbearer" or "Tower of Fear"
for January after the holidays. Anyone got a better choice?
--
Eric Herrmann
<shpshftr@xmission.com>
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From: "Marcin Welnicki" <szyderca@poczta.onet.pl>
Subject: Odp: (glencook-fans) New to list
Date: 23 Nov 2000 16:11:44 +0100
>
> Russia is also publishing Dread Empire. Same deal.
>
> --
> Eric Herrmann
> <shpshftr@xmission.com>
>
Eh, but Russian has more strage letters!( we've got about 9 of them ;))
Mocker
>
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From: "Marcin Welnicki" <szyderca@poczta.onet.pl>
Subject: Odp: (glencook-fans) New to list
Date: 23 Nov 2000 16:04:19 +0100
> Hmmm. So if I move to Poland, maybe I could finally get my hands on
> _October's Baby_
>
> Amy
>
> Ha, If you can read Polish i can send u a copy:)
Mocker
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From: "Pardoz" <pardoz@io.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Swordbearer
Date: 23 Nov 2000 19:17:32 -0400
On Wed, 22 Nov 2000 17:52:48 -0000, Joseph McGrath wrote:
>Not enough history about
>that thing. And the same thing goes for the character Ragi or Bragi (?)
>in,"An ill Fate Marshaling."
Bragi Ragnarson.
>Well not really his character. There wasn't
>enough info on the Portals they used to ferry troops in and out of a war
>zone.
Umm...you did know _Ill Fate_ was the seventh book in a series,
right? The history and operation of the portals was developed along
about book 3, with some intriguing revelations on same in book
6....(Pity we'll probably never see the conclusion of the series due to
gross publishorial incompetence).
--
BENEFACTOR, n. One who makes heavy purchases of ingratitude, without,
however, materially affecting the price, which is still within the means of
all.
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From: "David George" <dsgeorge@mindspring.com>
Subject: Glen Cook and David Drake (Re: (glencook-fans) Swordbearer)
Date: 23 Nov 2000 22:59:27 -0600
I have read (and continue to read) lots of David Drake. There are
similarities between Drake and Cook in topic (mercenary stuff, some SF, some
fantasy) but I'd say their writing style is very different. I used to work
in this bookstore in Chapel Hill and Drake would come in and visit and talk
to folks. Back then, I liked Glen Cook a lot but had a hard time getting
into Drake. I could kick myself now, because now I really like the way he
writes.
As to similarities, they are in roughly the same age group, as I recall.
Both served in the military, Cook in the Navy, Drake in the Army. Both seem
to know a lot about Roman civilization. Drake, I believe, may have majored
in ancient history or classics in undergrad. Not sure how Glen comes by the
knowledge, other than plain old interest and research.
Two things about Drake that are really different from Cook: first, Drake is
very detail oriented. If he throws something in from engineering or
technology, classical mythology or ancient culture, chances are good he
researched it in some detail. I can recall him (in conversations)
disparaging lazy writing that did not get the details right, and I have to
agree that when a writer gets details wrong, it detracts from my enjoyment
of the parts they got right. By contrast, I'd say that Glen Cook often
avoids detail. When Glen uses details in his stories, I am generally
satisfied, but he often blows right by details. Are the details important?
It's up to the reader to decide, I suppose. In Drake's writing I appreciate
them; in Cook's writing, I don't mind when they aren't there.
Second thing is that Drake's characters, especially his soldiers, are often
just a hair shy of losing it and blowing someone away for saying the wrong
thing. Like a whole freaking platoon of Ravens. People riding the ragged
edge of combat stress disorders are abundant. There are not a lot of
happy-go-lucky folks in Drake's stories. In fact, there are some pretty
sick puppies. Drake tends to write third person, Cook in first person.
Cook's voice tends to gloss over or skip a lot of the sickness that is
nonetheless implied by what he's said. (Example: Mercy, the seargeant who
goes into the tavern to find the poisoners in Black Company). What I mean
is not that the Drake characters are badder than the Cook characters, it's
just that Drake's voice doesn't hide much.
I think that soldiers from the Black Company would be able to run with
Hammer's Slammers and vice versa. Both have written some badass characters
in their works, though I'd take Joachim Steuben over Raven in a dark alley,
on viciousness alone (since one is SF, the other Fantasy, the meeting is
unlikely). (Sorry, it's just been too long since this list had a Raven vs.
? comment and I lost control.)
If you are considering picking up some David Drake and you are already a
Cook fan or a merc/military fiction fan, I'd recommend starting with the
Hammer's Slammers stuff--it's still widely available new and used. A lot of
the books are collections of short stories, but there are also some novels.
I think Rolling Hot is probably the best of the Hammer novels in my opinion,
but I also liked The Voyage. I also liked The Sharp End, and a Cook fan
might find that one appealing. I didn't dislike any of them.
If you just want to read fantasy, his latest series (first book is Lord of
The Isles) is good but is not much like anything Cook has written and is
also pretty different from a lot of the rest of Drake's work too.
DG
----- Original Message -----
Cc: <CLima52184@cs.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 8:52 PM
> Has anyone here read David Drake? Do you think Drakes' style is similar
> to Cooks?
>
> =======================================================================
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From: "Alfred Holmes" <ah69@bellsouth.net>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Forvalaka
Date: 24 Nov 2000 12:22:13 -0500
Is the forvalaka a Cook original, or is it based on some real-world legend
or myth?
I want to introduce one, or something like it, into my RPG campaign. I have
always assumed that the forvalaka was derived from some existing legend. I
thought a www search would turn up some more historical information on its
origins. I came up pretty empty, though, which made me wonder if in fact
Cook had created this monster straight from his own imagination.
Any insight appreciated, as well as any pointers to web sites or literature
with more info.
Thanks.
-a.
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From: "Marcin Welnicki" <szyderca@poczta.onet.pl>
Subject: Odp: (glencook-fans) Forvalaka
Date: 24 Nov 2000 19:55:48 +0100
> I want to introduce one, or something like it, into my RPG campaign
And what game do u play?:)
Mocker
Szybkosc - Bezpieczenstwo - FTP - SQL - ASP - 100 MB
dla Twojego serwisu WWW [ http://www.op.pl/hosting/ ]
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From: Richard Chilton <rchilton@auracom.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Forvalaka
Date: 24 Nov 2000 15:06:01 -0400
Alfred Holmes wrote:
>
> Is the forvalaka a Cook original, or is it based on some real-world legend
> or myth?
>
> I want to introduce one, or something like it, into my RPG campaign. I have
> always assumed that the forvalaka was derived from some existing legend. I
> thought a www search would turn up some more historical information on its
> origins. I came up pretty empty, though, which made me wonder if in fact
> Cook had created this monster straight from his own imagination.
>
I think the name might be new but the creature is not. Several
different groups had were-leopards. Basically, the most feared local
predators (wolves, bears, etc) usually spawned tails of were- versions.
Richard
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From: "Alfred Holmes" <ah69@bellsouth.net>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Forvalaka
Date: 24 Nov 2000 14:11:05 -0500
I'd have to say that my homebrew campaign is still getting its feet wet, and
hasn't truly managed to establish a firm identity as of yet. I just started
it up a couple months ago.
The mechanics end of the game uses the new 3rd edition D&D d20 rules, with
elements of Talislanta and Core mixed in.
The thematic side is a mix of "classic" D&D Greyhawk, Glen Cook's Black
Company, Robert Aspirin's Thieves World and Frank Herbert's Dune.
Like I said, it's all still bubbling in the cauldron right now; hard to say
yet what will finally end up on the dinner table.
-a.
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Marcin
Welnicki
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2000 1:56 PM
> I want to introduce one, or something like it, into my RPG campaign
And what game do u play?:)
Mocker
Szybkosc - Bezpieczenstwo - FTP - SQL - ASP - 100 MB
dla Twojego serwisu WWW [ http://www.op.pl/hosting/ ]
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From: "Timothy P. Taylor" <tptaylor@genuity.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Cook & Drake, Similar styles?
Date: 27 Nov 2000 08:07:15 -0500
I've read pretty much all of both Cook and Drake's writings. I like em both
lots. I saw another post in which the individual pointed out some really
good differences between the two authors in regards to their writing style
and attention to (or lack of) detail.
In a nutshell, no, I don't think that David Drake's style is similar to
glen cooks. They both have pretty distinctive styles on their own that seem
to "click" with readers.
One of my favorite Drake "novels" is Rolling Hot (Previously mentioned in
the earlier post. I also enjoyed Star Liner very much as well. With Glen
Cook, I think my favorite just might be the first book in the Garrett
Series, Sweet Silver Blues. I also enjoyed Bleak Seasons very much.
They are both (IMHO) AWESOME writers, who are able to modify their writing
styles to fit whichever genre they happen to have a vision of.
Just my $.02 worth!
Timothy Taylor
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of
> CLima52184@cs.com
> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 9:53 PM
> To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> Cc: CLima52184@cs.com
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Swordbearer
>
>
> Has anyone here read David Drake? Do you think Drakes' style is similar
> to Cooks?
>
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From: "Wright Frazier" <khelek@cioe.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Forvalaka
Date: 27 Oct 2000 09:42:43 -0500
I used one in a D&D game I ran a few years back. My players hated that damn
thing cause they never could kill it.
Wright
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2000 1:55 PM
> > I want to introduce one, or something like it, into my RPG campaign
>
> And what game do u play?:)
>
> Mocker
>
> Szybkosc - Bezpieczenstwo - FTP - SQL - ASP - 100 MB
> dla Twojego serwisu WWW [ http://www.op.pl/hosting/ ]
>
>
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From: Bob Dalgleish <Bob.Dalgleish@USask.CA>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Forvalaka
Date: 27 Nov 2000 09:28:17 -0600
It is a Hungarian name for exactly the beast described, although I doubt
that "leopard" was part of their vocabulary. I heard the name used in a
song sometime in the last two years as well.
A well-known Hungarian-ancestored author is S.J.Z. Brust, who uses hungarian
culture in his fantasy novels.
on 11/24/00 11:22 AM, Alfred Holmes at ah69@bellsouth.net wrote:
> Is the forvalaka a Cook original, or is it based on some real-world legend
> or myth?
>
> I want to introduce one, or something like it, into my RPG campaign. I have
> always assumed that the forvalaka was derived from some existing legend. I
> thought a www search would turn up some more historical information on its
> origins. I came up pretty empty, though, which made me wonder if in fact
> Cook had created this monster straight from his own imagination.
>
> Any insight appreciated, as well as any pointers to web sites or literature
> with more info.
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From: "R. Hyrum Savage" <ashaman@flashcom.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Forvalaka
Date: 27 Nov 2000 09:31:20 -0800
I don't know what game you're using, but here's a link to a forvalaka in 2nd
edition D&D terms.
http://www.angelfire.com/ar/arislyn/forvalaka.html
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2000 7:28 AM
It is a Hungarian name for exactly the beast described, although I doubt
that "leopard" was part of their vocabulary. I heard the name used in a
song sometime in the last two years as well.
A well-known Hungarian-ancestored author is S.J.Z. Brust, who uses hungarian
culture in his fantasy novels.
on 11/24/00 11:22 AM, Alfred Holmes at ah69@bellsouth.net wrote:
> Is the forvalaka a Cook original, or is it based on some real-world legend
> or myth?
>
> I want to introduce one, or something like it, into my RPG campaign. I
have
> always assumed that the forvalaka was derived from some existing legend. I
> thought a www search would turn up some more historical information on its
> origins. I came up pretty empty, though, which made me wonder if in fact
> Cook had created this monster straight from his own imagination.
>
> Any insight appreciated, as well as any pointers to web sites or
literature
> with more info.
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From: Bill Curran <zarathos@vegas.infi.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Soldier's Live
Date: 27 Nov 2000 23:31:56 -0800
Well, I just finished reading Soldier's Live and all I can say is.... Wow...
Now all I am curious about is what new tricks he is going to do with the BC in
(hopefully) future books.
Overall, I enjoyed the Books of the South most of the BC series. Probably with
SHE IS THE DARKNESS being my favorite.
How do the rest of ya feel?
Bill
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From: "Amy Weathers" <raistlin@zianet.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) New to list, book of the month
Date: 29 Nov 2000 21:42:51 -0700
>You don't have to move to Poland. There are several good online Polish
>bookstores who will sell you a copy. And you have time, while they are
>shipping, to learn Polish! <G>
>
>Look for the Booksellers page of links on the website.
>
>Russia is also publishing Dread Empire. Same deal.
>
>--
>Eric Herrmann
I have had a hard enough time grasping the Spanish language during the last
26 years, so I am afraid that either addition would be beyond my grasp. I
am planing on hitting a couple of bigger cities early next year so perhaps
all hope is not yet lost.
Now to jump to Book of the Month. Both -Swordbearer- and -The Tower of
Fear- seem to have a larger amount of people that dislike them (over say,
most other Glen Cook books). I think that either book could provide this
list with some interesting dialog. Hearing what people dislike about
something always tends to be more interesting as well as more of a
conversation starter than "This is such a great book!" over and over. Given
a vote, I think I would pick -Tower of Fear- as a starter (though it can get
a bit painful in places).
Amy
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From: "Don" <dfgarcia@stic.net>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Book of the Month Spoilers
Date: 21 Nov 2000 16:40:46 -0600
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The Dragon Never Sleeps SPOILERS
Better late than never?
I liked The Dragon Never Sleeps. It sucked me in. Dam it was hard =
keeping track of all the "others". Anyone else have this problem?=20
If this was already addressed, I apologize. I didn't read the prior =
posts as to not spoil the book. I don't really have time now.=20
How many dam Lupos were there? Did the original get killed in that alley =
gun fight. I thought I caught Turtle mention to Lupo that he knew about. =
Lupo didn't understand why Turtle didn't use the info. Was I incorrect. =
If so, let me know.
Don=20
"In time, what's deserved always gets served."- COC
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The Dragon Never Sleeps =
SPOILERS</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Better late than never?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I liked The Dragon Never Sleeps. It =
sucked me in.=20
Dam it was hard keeping track of all the "others". Anyone else have this =
problem? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If this was already addressed, I =
apologize. I=20
didn't read the prior posts as to not spoil the book. I don't really =
have time=20
now. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>How many dam Lupos were there? Did the =
original get=20
killed in that alley gun fight. I thought I caught Turtle mention to =
Lupo that=20
he knew about. Lupo didn't understand why Turtle didn't use the info. =
Was I=20
incorrect. If so, let me know.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>Don <BR>"In time, what's deserved =
always gets=20
served."- COC</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
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From: "Don" <dfgarcia@stic.net>
Subject: (glencook-fans) The Next Book
Date: 21 Nov 2000 16:49:24 -0600
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I think Tower of Fear would be a good one. Another thought would be the =
first Garrett novel. I could look up the name but most of you probably =
know what it is anyway. Eric. Let us know. Some of us are still =
interested.=20
Don=20
"In time, what's deserved always gets served."- COC
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I think Tower of Fear would be a good =
one. Another=20
thought would be the first Garrett novel. I could look up the name but =
most of=20
you probably know what it is anyway. Eric. Let us know. Some of us are =
still=20
interested. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Don <BR>"In time, what's deserved =
always gets=20
served."- COC</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
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