ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/glencook-fans/archive/glencook-fans.200009

Internet Message Format | 2000-09-27 | 325KB

From: Eric Herrmann <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) August Archive Available
Date: 01 Sep 2000 12:01:32 -0600

The August archive of the GlenCook-Fans mailing list is now available.


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From: Eric Herrmann <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Glen Cook Biography
Date: 01 Sep 2000 12:05:08 -0600

on 8/31/00 5:10 PM, Sam Felice at [e-mail] wrote:

> My vote, then, is for individual.  Mostly because just for fun I went and
> wrote a short bio.  Not so much a bio that you'd see in the back jacket of his
> books.  You can get that...in the back jacket of his books (duh. hehe).  But
> more of a bio of my experience with his books.  If individual turns out to be
> the vote, I'll email it to you on Tuesday (which is the next day I'll be at
> work).  If the vote is for group, I'll toss my ideas out here for folks to do
> with as they please. :)

So far I'm not seeing any interest beyond yourself.

Is there a great, silent majority? Or nobody wants a copy of "Heirs of
Babylon"?

--
Eric Herrmann
<[e-mail]>



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Glen Cook Biography
Date: 01 Sep 2000 14:09:49 EDT

In a message dated 9/1/00 11:05:48 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< So far I'm not seeing any interest beyond yourself. >>

I guess I missed the purpose of the bio - where is it going and who will be
using it and we're supposed to say how GC's writing affected our lives?  Hmmm?

Guess I was too busy finishing "Soldiers Live"  to pay attention.  :)

Donna

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From: "Timothy P. Taylor" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Glen Cook Biography
Date: 01 Sep 2000 14:17:28 -0400

I'll cast my vote for private submissions.  I wouldn't mind contributing how
I found books 2 and 3 of the north at worldcon one year...and got them
signed by Glen cook himself.

TT

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Eric
> Herrmann
> Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 2:05 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Glen Cook Biography
>
>
> on 8/31/00 5:10 PM, Sam Felice at [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > My vote, then, is for individual.  Mostly because just for fun
> I went and
> > wrote a short bio.  Not so much a bio that you'd see in the
> back jacket of his
> > books.  You can get that...in the back jacket of his books
> (duh. hehe).  But
> > more of a bio of my experience with his books.  If individual
> turns out to be
> > the vote, I'll email it to you on Tuesday (which is the next
> day I'll be at
> > work).  If the vote is for group, I'll toss my ideas out here
> for folks to do
> > with as they please. :)
>
> So far I'm not seeing any interest beyond yourself.
>
> Is there a great, silent majority? Or nobody wants a copy of "Heirs of
> Babylon"?
>
> --
> Eric Herrmann
> <[e-mail]>
>
>
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.


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From: Eric Herrmann <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Glen Cook Biography
Date: 01 Sep 2000 14:06:26 -0600

on 9/1/00 12:09 PM, [e-mail] at [e-mail] wrote:
> I guess I missed the purpose of the bio - where is it going and who will be
> using it and we're supposed to say how GC's writing affected our lives?  Hmmm?
>
> Guess I was too busy finishing "Soldiers Live"  to pay attention.  :)

Glen Cook is the Guest of Honor (GoH) at the science fiction & fantasy
convention Albacon 2000, <http://www.albacon.org>, to be held October 6-8,
2000 in Schenectady, NY.

Albacon asked me to write a short biography of about 1000 words for their
program book. I declined the invitation but obtained permission for this
list to write one.

Albacon gave this feedback:
> A group bio would be great.  Try to have it more than just the basic
> biographical items.  Personal anecdotes or things like "How Glen Cook changed
> my life" ;) would be what I'm looking for.

Examples of program book biographies can be found at
<http://www.mnstf.org/minicon/history/minicon30/glen-cook.html> and
<http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Biog.html>.

Albacon needs the biography by September 22, 2000. I'd like to get one to
them by September 14, 2000.

Here is an opportunity for an individual to be published, achieve fame, and
win the book, "Heirs of Babylon" (Anybody else want to donate a prize?) or
for us to write this biography as a group.

So far I haven't seen much interest. Perhaps everyone is at WorldCon.

--
Eric Herrmann
<[e-mail]>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Glen Cook Biography
Date: 01 Sep 2000 16:11:45 EDT

In a message dated 9/1/00 1:07:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< So far I haven't seen much interest. Perhaps everyone is at WorldCon.
  >>

Well, count me among the interested.  I'd prefer individual bios, perhaps a
limited word count?

Donna

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From: Eric Herrmann <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Shadowline 3rd Edition
Date: 02 Sep 2000 13:48:06 -0600

I'm trying to determine if there was a 3rd edition of Shadowline.

Does anyone have a book different from:

    Shadowline (Red Cover)
    ISBN: 0-446-30154-X $2.75
    "First Printing: February, 1982"
    "10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1"

    Shadowline (Black Cover)
    ISBN: 0-446-34214-9 $3.95
    "First Printing: February, 1982"
    "Reissued: April, 1986"
    "10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3"

It's been suggested that the printing is indicated by the
    "10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1"
So I'm wondering if someone as a
    "10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2"

Same challenge for Starfishers. I've only found

    Starfishers
    ISBN: 0-446-30155-8 $2.95
    "First Printing: May, 1982"
    "10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1"

Email me privately.

Thanks,

--
Eric Herrmann
<[e-mail]>


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From: "S. Townsend" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Shadowline 3rd Edition
Date: 02 Sep 2000 14:57:18 -0500

Nope, mine's the first printing one on both.  They're the only copies I've
ever even seen.

Eric Herrmann wrote:

> I'm trying to determine if there was a 3rd edition of Shadowline.
>
> Does anyone have a book different from:
>
>     Shadowline (Red Cover)
>     ISBN: 0-446-30154-X $2.75
>     "First Printing: February, 1982"
>     "10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1"
>
>     Shadowline (Black Cover)
>     ISBN: 0-446-34214-9 $3.95
>     "First Printing: February, 1982"
>     "Reissued: April, 1986"
>     "10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3"
>
> It's been suggested that the printing is indicated by the
>     "10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1"
> So I'm wondering if someone as a
>     "10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2"
>
> Same challenge for Starfishers. I've only found
>
>     Starfishers
>     ISBN: 0-446-30155-8 $2.95
>     "First Printing: May, 1982"
>     "10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1"
>
> Email me privately.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Eric Herrmann
> <[e-mail]>
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.


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From: Lee Childs <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Shadowline 3rd Edition
Date: 02 Sep 2000 19:25:38 -0700

Eric:
Shadowline has a first and second edition.
1. 1982 Shadowline Warner 350 ?      PB n
2. 1986 Shadowline Warner 350 3.95 PB n
See http://www.locusmag.com/ for confirmation.
Shadowline (Warner 0-446-34214-9, Apr =9286 [Mar =9286], $3.95, 350pp, pb=
)
[*Starfishers] Reissue (Warner 1982) sf novel. Vol. 1 of the =93Starfishe=
rs=94
trilogy.
Lee Childs


Eric Herrmann wrote:

> I'm trying to determine if there was a 3rd edition of Shadowline.
>
> Same challenge for Starfishers. I've only found
>
>     Starfishers
>     ISBN: 0-446-30155-8 $2.95
>     "First Printing: May, 1982"
>     "10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1"
>
> Email me privately.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Eric Herrmann
> <[e-mail]>
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.




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From: "Richard Gruver" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Shadowline 3rd Edition
Date: 03 Sep 2000 01:22:35 -0500


  I kinda got obsessive about buying oop Cook PB's about 3 yrs ago. I have
Shadowline in all 3 printings (Actually I have six full sets of the
trilogy). I keep intending to sell some of them on ebay but somehow I never
get around to it.The first printing has the lighter colored cover where the
artwork overflows the frame on the cover. In the 2nd & 3rd printings the
cover art is contained within the frame and the rest of the cover is black.
Richard Gruver
Eric:
Shadowline has a first and second edition.
1. 1982 Shadowline Warner 350 ?      PB n
2. 1986 Shadowline Warner 350 3.95 PB n
See http://www.locusmag.com/ for confirmation.
Shadowline (Warner 0-446-34214-9, Apr '86 [Mar '86], $3.95, 350pp, pb)
[*Starfishers] Reissue (Warner 1982) sf novel. Vol. 1 of the "Starfishers"
trilogy.
Lee Childs


Eric Herrmann wrote:

> I'm trying to determine if there was a 3rd edition of Shadowline.
>
> Same challenge for Starfishers. I've only found
>
>     Starfishers
>     ISBN: 0-446-30155-8 $2.95
>     "First Printing: May, 1982"
>     "10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1"
>
> Email me privately.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Eric Herrmann
> <[e-mail]>
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.




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From: David Ainsworth <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Literary Journey (Spoilers)
Date: 03 Sep 2000 12:11:50 -0500

New poster, new to the list, and about a week behind, so I apologize for
everything in advance.  ;)  There are some spoilers below, so be warned...










As someone who does literary analysis for a "living," I thought I'd jump in
with some opinions on the topic of the Black Company as protagonist.  I
think perhaps I'd say it is, but only in a qualified sense.  Because the
Black Company, we learn from the Books of the South, doesn't really exist as
a discrete entity.  The series is really about a process of defining the
Black Company, and then discovering that it isn't at all what it seemed to be.

Look at the Books of the North.  We have a strong Annalist, regular
readings, an underrunning sense of continuity.  The same core group of
characters help sustain that sense.  This is the same Black Company
throughout, although by the end of the second book it has redefined itself
(only SO black and no further).  But suddenly the Company is wiped out, and
half of what remains chooses to disband.  What is the Company at the end of
TWR?  That's suddenly a huge question.  The continuity has been shattered (I
think Silver Spike's position in the series neatly demonstrates that).  In
the absence of any clear sense of a future, Croaker decides to go back into
the Company's past, that which was lost since departure from Khatovar.  In
those days, the Company was in the service of nobody.

And, as he and others comment in the Books of the South and Glittering
Stone, their trip south does indeed take them back into the Company's past.
But as they start uncovering some of the mysteries, they discover that the
Company's past has been manipulated left and right.  Kina has created false
memories of its earlier trip through the South, Shivetya has manipulated
Croaker into trying to return the Annals (which explains Croaker's
disinterest in Khatovar in SL), and in its attempt to return to its roots,
the Company instead becomes something it had never been before.

At the end of SL, the remaining Company, even more than in WS, has little
connection to what went before.  The new Captain has only the smallest link
to the Company of the past, and the Company itself is going to do its thing
in an entirely new world.  But then there's a second Company, the one
gathered around Croaker/Shivetya and Lady.  I think it's significant that it
is here that the Annals continue.  Are these two groups still unified, or
not?  We can't really tell, though Croaker is never going to leave the Plain
again...

David

PS.  Regarding Croaker/Shivetya and Croaker's question to him before the
"swap,"  I feel the implication is that if Shivetya were gone, the Plain and
everything in it would cease to exist.  And there's the suggestion in an
earlier book that the Plain may have *generated* the worlds attached to it.
So if Shivetya (the World-Annalist) were gone, everything else goes too.
Reality is created, then, by the memory of its past as much or more than by
the thrust of its future.  The moral, if I were to declare one, for the
whole series--and ample source of literary merit.  "It is immortality of a
sort."


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From: Steve Harris <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Literary Journey (Spoilers)
Date: 03 Sep 2000 14:16:03 -0500

David,

Thanks for carrying on my notion of the Company as protagonist.

I think of the Company as a sort of protagonist, partly in that it
carries some of the moral burden of the story:  The concern of just who
the company thinks it is, of what it collectively sees as its place in
the world, is a question of continuing import, even as the company
personell changes in entirety.  It is the changing form of the company's
self-declared mission that is one of the long-term matters of interest
throughout the saga.

And, as you say, Kina and Shivetya are world-class manipulators who have
an impact on the way the company as a whole (and not just any
individual) interacts with the world.

But we also have Croaker, Lady, and Soulcatcher as important figures
throughout the series (even if the first two are entirely off-stage in
WS); so there is also continuity of individual characters, one of whom
is a protagonist figures (Lady is always a bit too distant and unsharing
of her feelings, even as annalist, to be much of a protagonist).
Further, Croaker carries his own individual moral burden, and we care
about that (even Lady does, perhaps--but not Soulcatcher).  So this is
not solely a Company-driven saga; there is Croaker, too (mostly there).

Steve

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From: "Amy Weathers" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Literary Journey (Spoilers)
Date: 05 Sep 2000 20:10:21 -0600

I, too, am new to this list. I hope all of us new people do not drive all
you 'older' people too crazy.

I am also catching up on the last couple of days worth of posts.

As far as SL, when I finished reading it I felt very complete. Like many of
you, having dedicated the last decade or so the BC, SL took the journey full
circle. This is the story of a group of people who have lived, grown and
ultimately died together. The fact that the 'real life time' of these novels
spans over apx 14 years has also given us, the readers, lots of time to do
much living and growing in our own lives, thus making this cycle feel more
real and genuine than, say, the Dragonlance stories.

Personally, I would feel a little cheated if Cook was to go on with the
story. I think it would cheapen the series, again like the way Dragonlance
was. I would like to find out more about the history of the Taken and their
backstory. Books on that subject would be nice.

At any rate, it is nice to see that there are other Cook fans out there.
Back in 1990 or so I felt like I was all alone.

- Amy



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From: "Michele" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Re: SL SPOILER (well, kinda)
Date: 07 Sep 2000 21:53:50 -0400








It's not really a spoiler, but I wanted to ask - is it just me or did
Lady calling Croaker "honey" strike anyone as odd?  It felt very out
of character to me.  It felt out of character when Craoker called
Lady "honey" too, but I can almost rationalize that.

M


Michele
[e-mail]

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From: "Scott Vandenberg" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: SL SPOILER (well, kinda)
Date: 07 Sep 2000 22:40:09 -0400

Although out of character, I didn't mind seeing a little affection between
the two in their latter years.  It was almost cute.


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 9:53 PM


>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> It's not really a spoiler, but I wanted to ask - is it just me or did
> Lady calling Croaker "honey" strike anyone as odd?  It felt very out
> of character to me.  It felt out of character when Craoker called
> Lady "honey" too, but I can almost rationalize that.
>
> M
>
>
> Michele
> [e-mail]
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>


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From: Malik Coates <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) SL SPOILER
Date: 07 Sep 2000 20:43:59 -0700

Did you notice Soul Catcher referring to Lady as the Dominator's virgin
bride?  Did she stay virgin into the ground?  If so Croaker may have
been her first....

I kind of doubt it tho.  Shapeshifter was still following her after she
lost her powers.  My bet is she had her hooks into him deep.

Scott Vandenberg wrote:
>
> Although out of character, I didn't mind seeing a little affection between
> the two in their latter years.  It was almost cute.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michele" <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 9:53 PM
> Subject: (glencook-fans) Re: SL SPOILER (well, kinda)
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > It's not really a spoiler, but I wanted to ask - is it just me or did
> > Lady calling Croaker "honey" strike anyone as odd?  It felt very out
> > of character to me.  It felt out of character when Craoker called
> > Lady "honey" too, but I can almost rationalize that.
> >
> > M
> >
> >
> > Michele
> > [e-mail]
> >
> > =======================================================================
> >  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> >  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> >
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.

--
Right on! Right On! Shake your money maker!... Can we hit it and quit
it?
 ==James Brown.

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From: "Michele" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: SL SPOILER (well, kinda)
Date: 07 Sep 2000 23:37:39 -0400


But they're not really a "cute" couple.  I prefer Croaker's
endearments from previous books - (yes, I making this up, but it's
late & I can't think well enough to go find an actual example) '...so
she had all seven executed and strung their heads up around the
tent.  The smell was atrocious.  That's my sweetie.'

I think their affection was better shown in the earlier books (yes -
another "North" fan), especially just after Lady looses her powers
(yeah, I know - I'm into "South" territory here).

anyway - just my $0.02

M


On 7 Sep 00, at 22:40, Scott Vandenberg wrote:

> Although out of character, I didn't mind seeing a little affection
> between the two in their latter years.  It was almost cute.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michele" <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 9:53 PM
> Subject: (glencook-fans) Re: SL SPOILER (well, kinda)
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > It's not really a spoiler, but I wanted to ask - is it just me or
> > did Lady calling Croaker "honey" strike anyone as odd?  It felt very
> > out of character to me.  It felt out of character when Craoker
> > called Lady "honey" too, but I can almost rationalize that.
> >
> > M
> >
> >
> > Michele
> > [e-mail]
> >
> > ====================================================================
> > ===
> >  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> >  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> >
>
>
> ======================================================================
> =
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.


Michele
[e-mail]

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From: "Michele" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL SPOILER
Date: 07 Sep 2000 23:53:34 -0400

On 7 Sep 00, at 20:43, Malik Coates wrote:

> Did you notice Soul Catcher referring to Lady as the Dominator's
> virgin bride?  Did she stay virgin into the ground?  If so Croaker may
> have been her first....
>
From "Shadow Games" - Chapter Twelve 'The Shaggy Hills':
Croaker and Lady are - hmmm - making out?  and:

...She shivered in my grasp like a captive mouse.  "What is it?" I
whispered.
"Shh," she said.  And that was the best thing she could have said.
But she could not leave it there.  She had to add, "I never...I never
did this..."

Makes me think that, yes, she was a virgin until she met Croaker.
Michele
[e-mail]

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From: "S. Townsend" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: SL SPOILER (well, kinda)
Date: 07 Sep 2000 23:13:10 -0500

Ya I noticed that too. It felt strange, but somehow appropo.  Only couples
who have known each other a long time or were very comfortable use those
terms, that's what I felt Cook was trying to imply.


Michele wrote:

> It's not really a spoiler, but I wanted to ask - is it just me or did
> Lady calling Croaker "honey" strike anyone as odd?  It felt very out
> of character to me.  It felt out of character when Craoker called
> Lady "honey" too, but I can almost rationalize that.
>
> M
>
> Michele
> [e-mail]
>
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From: Steve Harris <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) virgin brideDid you notice Soul Catcher referring
Date: 08 Sep 2000 01:21:47 -0500

Scott,

"Did you notice Soul Catcher referring to Lady as the Dominator's virgin
bride?  Did she stay virgin into the ground?  If so Croaker may have
been her first...."

_Shadow Games_, p. 73:

        "Shh," she said.  And that was the best thing she
      could have said.  But she could not leave it there.
      She had to add, "I never ... I never did this...."
         Well, shit.  She sure knew how to distract a man,
      and put a thousand reservations into his mind.

I think we can take it as presumptive that Lady never took it into her
head to lose control of her body to her emotions, in the presence of
another person, while she was The Lady.

Steve

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From: Chris Holko <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) When did "Lady" fall in love?
Date: 08 Sep 2000 05:58:12 -0400

(btw I am new to the list)

but when did the "Lady" fall in love with Croaker?   I am pretty sure
she either did or was damn close just before the battle to put down
the Dominator.


One more,  do you think part of the deal with Darling was that they
both would lose their powers?  It seems to me it was incredible that
the information about the daughters was left "out"


Chris

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.=20

www.archonon.com

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From: Jay DeSimone <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL SPOILER
Date: 08 Sep 2000 06:51:56 -0400

Croaker was her first.  She told him that.  She said something to the effect of,
"I never did this before."  When Croaker acted shocked, she said, "Our marriage
wasn't one of love."  Or something to that effect.

Jay

Malik Coates wrote:

> Did you notice Soul Catcher referring to Lady as the Dominator's virgin
> bride?  Did she stay virgin into the ground?  If so Croaker may have
> been her first....


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From: Jay DeSimone <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) When did "Lady" fall in love?
Date: 08 Sep 2000 06:54:39 -0400

I think she may have been intrigued by him from the very first time she
read his fantasies about her in the Annals.  Maybe not enough for her to
act on immediately, but perhaps it caused her to start thinking about
what she'd been missing...

Chris Holko wrote:

> but when did the "Lady" fall in love with Croaker?   I am pretty sure
> she either did or was damn close just before the battle to put down
> the Dominator.


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From: "Mike Wells" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Soldiers Live - Spoiler Type Message
Date: 08 Sep 2000 08:11:10 -0500

Well.  I just finished Soldiers Live.  Great book I thought.  Loved it.
Although I did get mad a few times. Ahh well...I guess it was time to end it
eh?  Anyway...I'm new to the list, so be gentle.

Mike


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) When did "Lady" fall in love?
Date: 08 Sep 2000 10:04:00 EDT

You have to think about the position Lady was in. She was, for all practical purposes, queen of the world. Everyone would bend to her will and was deathly afraid of her. Add to that fact that she was effectively cut off from everyone but this motley crew of madmen (and women).

Enter Croaker. He's a simple soldier with a romantic streak. An honest man that tells it like it is, even in the face of old evil. Lady wanted him to tell the story of Charm as it was...and he did it. After Soulcatcher was "killed" he remarked that he would have killed Lady if he thought he had the strength. But he's not afraid to speak his mind later. At the end of Shadows Linger he basically stands up to her and says "Hey! We did everything for you and you let your people screw us. To hell with you."

Love is a slow process, it grows with time. Personally, I think it was when Croaker lived up to his promise to take Lady to the Gardens in Opal. For once, she was a regular person with her "knight in slightly dented armor."

That's just my opinion...I could be wrong (and probably am)

Win

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From: "Joseph McGrath" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) When did "Lady" fall in love?
Date: 08 Sep 2000 13:08:24 -0000

When she started to experience what it was like to be powerless and to have
someone that would actually try to protect her instead of having to deal
with that freak show that were the Taken. To journey to the plain of fear
and lose all power like that takes a-lot of courage. But that was the only
way that she was going to be able to fall in love with any one anyway. It's
ridiculous to think someone could find love without throwing away all
pretenses and advantages. I think it's classic that Cook would choose to
make love flourish in such a bizzare place as the Plain of Fear. If you
examine it that way there are all sorts and types of symbolism going on
there. .... A white rose growing out of the ground, the love between Croaker
and Lady countenenced by a Tree God, Father Time, Evil supplying the
nutrients for a root system in the form of that monster that the tree holds
down. I know i'm reaching here and Cook maybe didn't even intend to make it
come out that way except maybe subconciously. Thanks... Joe
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 10:54 AM


> I think she may have been intrigued by him from the very first time she
> read his fantasies about her in the Annals.  Maybe not enough for her to
> act on immediately, but perhaps it caused her to start thinking about
> what she'd been missing...
>
> Chris Holko wrote:
>
> > but when did the "Lady" fall in love with Croaker?   I am pretty sure
> > she either did or was damn close just before the battle to put down
> > the Dominator.
>
>
> =======================================================================
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Did she stay virgin into the ground?  If so Croaker may
> > have been her first....
> >
> From "Shadow Games" - Chapter Twelve 'The Shaggy Hills':
> Croaker and Lady are - hmmm - making out?  and:
>
> ...She shivered in my grasp like a captive mouse.  "What is it?" I
> whispered.
> "Shh," she said.  And that was the best thing she could have said.
> But she could not leave it there.  She had to add, "I never...I never
> did this..."
>
> Makes me think that, yes, she was a virgin until she met Croaker.
> Michele
> [e-mail]
>
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>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.


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From: David Chisholm <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) When did "Lady" fall in love?
Date: 08 Sep 2000 13:59:34 -0500



Chris Holko wrote:

> One more,  do you think part of the deal with Darling was that they
> both would lose their powers?  It seems to me it was incredible that
> the information about the daughters was left "out"
>

Interesting idea.  How else did the Lady get Darling's true name.  But
if that's the case, why was Darling surprised by Lady when Lady named
her?

David

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From: Bob Dalgleish <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) When did "Lady" fall in love?
Date: 08 Sep 2000 15:02:41 -0600

Lady got the name the old fashioned way - research.

Even though Darling's whole village was wiped out, as well as her family,
she was still traceable. Tying together Darlings' advent at the village
(time and place taken from Croaker, et al, memory), then start searching
for refugee's from the village, and remote kin. At least that is how I
would do it, if I were queen of the world.

David Chisholm wrote:

> Interesting idea.  How else did the Lady get Darling's true name.  But
> if that's the case, why was Darling surprised by Lady when Lady named
> her?


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From: David Ainsworth <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: SL SPOILER (well, kinda)
Date: 08 Sep 2000 18:36:25 -0500

At 09:53 PM 9/7/2000 -0400, Michele wrote:

>It's not really a spoiler, but I wanted to ask - is it just me or did
>Lady calling Croaker "honey" strike anyone as odd?  It felt very out
>of character to me.  It felt out of character when Craoker called
>Lady "honey" too, but I can almost rationalize that.








Another thing to keep in mind is that Lady has been both without her powers
for an extended period of time, and is starting to show visible signs of
aging.  And Croaker is starting to unravel at the seams, physically
speaking.  I agree that mid-age Croaker calling young/timeless Lady "honey"
is just plain weird, but aging Croaker calling aging Lady "honey" seemed
natural to be.  It's a playful kind of way to reaffirm their earlier
relationship and let her know that her aging hasn't changed anything.

Idle spoiler question--anybody else wonder if Lady was going to use her new
powers to "reset" the clock?  Is she is vain as her sister?

David


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: SL SPOILER (well, kinda)
Date: 09 Sep 2000 01:10:45 EDT


In a message dated 9/7/00 9:00:32 PM, [e-mail] writes:

>It's not really a spoiler, but I wanted to ask - is it just me or did
>Lady calling Croaker "honey" strike anyone as odd?  It felt very out
>of character to me.  It felt out of character when Craoker called
>Lady "honey" too, but I can almost rationalize that.
>
>M

Listen Sweetie, ifana I wanna call some chick cupcake, or honey, or
muskmelon I'll do it as long as I have an amy at my back. I don't care
if your were once the most powerful living being in the known world
and the ruler of the North, what have you done lately?

Just kidding....

Slightly.

This too stuck me as odd, but mostly because, regardless of how PI
you view the BC, the books are never sexist. (That's Politically Incorrect
to those wondering, and Back Company to the clueless). Even when women
are running things (yeah, right) you still have the same bloody atrocities
and pillaging that goes on in the other book. IMHO, the women are portrayed
as even more male than the men.

yeah, go ahead and call yourself the Dominator, but if, in the end, you're
beaten by the machinations of a handful of scheming women....

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.....

Hey honey, wanna go f*ck?

Actually, this brings up one of those deconstructionist points. SL seems
to swear more than any of the other BC books. Maybe this is just me and my
impression, but it seems we trade off sentimental scenes of Croaker with his
new daughters with a scene of someone saying words that are well.... Just
plain naughty. (i.e not in your latest Harry Potter).

Well, I guess I just wrote a half dozen paragraphs of "me too," so I will
quit.

christopher....

p.s. I see you sign your email "M." Ever read the comic "Faust," by Tim Vigil?
Blacker than the Black Co., more twisted than a contortionist at a frat party.




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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: SL SPOILER (well, kinda)
Date: 09 Sep 2000 01:10:47 EDT


In a message dated 9/8/00 6:34:26 PM, [e-mail] writes:

>Idle spoiler question--anybody else wonder if Lady was going to use her
>new powers to "reset" the clock?  Is she is vain as her sister?

First stupid question on this list. :)

Just kidding. I didn't guess this way. I just assumed she will. Of course she
will. My concern was more of "What the hell does a 30 foot golem do with
a 6 century old hottie?"

christopher...

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL SPOILER
Date: 09 Sep 2000 01:10:49 EDT


In a message dated 9/7/00 10:40:40 PM, [e-mail] writes:

>Did you notice Soul Catcher referring to Lady as the Dominator's virgin
>bride?  Did she stay virgin into the ground?  If so Croaker may have
>been her first....

I took that as more of wishful thinking. There is ample evidence that Soul
Catcher was the Dominator's lover. Now, if you were doing your sister's
husband, one of the best mental defenses is "Well, she's not satisfying him.
If she only took advantage of what she had...." Blah blah blah, until Catcher
is doing it like a mink on an Iowa highway, while Lady is portrayed as a prig.
Given my chocie I'm going to throw my lot in with Catcher (it would be more
intense, more unpredictable, and just plain funner).

>I kind of doubt it tho.  Shapeshifter was still following her after she
>lost her powers.  My bet is she had her hooks into him deep.

I'm guessing you're under 30. :)

You don't get the hooks in deep by schleping a guy. You do it by making him
think
you will. *Sleep* with him and he'll be gone in the morning. Spend a few
hundred
years buried under the ground pretending like you really would like to if
only you
could get free.... Hooks much deeper.

christopher.....

In a message dated 9/7/00 10:58:57 PM, [e-mail] writes:

>...She shivered in my grasp like a captive mouse.  "What is it?" I
>whispered. "Shh," she said.  And that was the best thing she could have
said.
>But she could not leave it there.  She had to add, "I never...I never
>did this..."

Good catch. But then women always say this. :)

In a message dated 9/8/00 1:21:48 AM, [e-mail] writes:

>        "Shh," she said.  And that was the best thing she
>      could have said.  But she could not leave it there.
>      She had to add, "I never ... I never did this...."
>         Well, shit.  She sure knew how to distract a man,
>      and put a thousand reservations into his mind.
>
>I think we can take it as presumptive that Lady never took it into her
>head to lose control of her body to her emotions, in the presence of
>another person, while she was The Lady.

Because heaven forbid that she actually lie and manipulate to get something
she wants.



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 09 Sep 2000 01:10:43 EDT

So I am 30, male, single, make around $25,000, live in the midwest (US for
those...),
been reading Cook for two years, but I get the feeling that I am probably one
of the
oldest people on this list. While my sex insures that I am with the majority,
I somehow
get an impression few of those out there are employed fulltime or are as old
as me
(somehow I have no problem reconciling singleness with being a Cook reader).
Anyway,
just wondering how many others are in my demographic.

christopher....

p.s. if your weren't old enough to see Star Wars in the theater the first
time you're
not in the demographic.

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From: "C.L. Yona" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: SL SPOILER (well, kinda)
Date: 09 Sep 2000 08:41:52 -0400

SPOILER SPOILER



















I do think a certain amount of affection became part and parcel of their
relationship as time went on, but as much as Lady may have come to care for
Croaker the leopard was never entirely able to change her spots.  I don't have
SL in front of me right now, but right at the end doesn't one of the girls say
that Lady is incredibly happy because she has her powers back, thanks to
Shiv/Croaker?  That she would "Make love to that ugly demon all day if she
could?"

I think if it had been within her powers, Lady would have been perfectly happy
having her powers and ruling up North forever with Croaker as an amusing
distraction.  But Cook had other plans for her.  And yes, I think that in the
probably never-to-be-written-future Lady will make herself into the
young-looking bit of slinkiness she used to be.  But that's just me.

yer dog

David Ainsworth wrote:

> At 09:53 PM 9/7/2000 -0400, Michele wrote:
>
> >It's not really a spoiler, but I wanted to ask - is it just me or did
> >Lady calling Croaker "honey" strike anyone as odd?  It felt very out
> >of character to me.  It felt out of character when Craoker called
> >Lady "honey" too, but I can almost rationalize that.
>
> Another thing to keep in mind is that Lady has been both without her powers
> for an extended period of time, and is starting to show visible signs of
> aging.  And Croaker is starting to unravel at the seams, physically
> speaking.  I agree that mid-age Croaker calling young/timeless Lady "honey"
> is just plain weird, but aging Croaker calling aging Lady "honey" seemed
> natural to be.  It's a playful kind of way to reaffirm their earlier
> relationship and let her know that her aging hasn't changed anything.
>
> Idle spoiler question--anybody else wonder if Lady was going to use her new
> powers to "reset" the clock?  Is she is vain as her sister?
>
> David




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From: "C.L. Yona" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 09 Sep 2000 08:45:06 -0400

Own my own business (so I work full-time and a half), 32, male, well-adjusted,
even have a girlfriend and everything (who is currently devouring Soldiers
Live).

[e-mail] wrote:

> So I am 30, male, single, make around $25,000, live in the midwest (US for
> those...),
> been reading Cook for two years, but I get the feeling that I am probably one
> of the
> oldest people on this list. While my sex insures that I am with the majority,
> I somehow
> get an impression few of those out there are employed fulltime or are as old
> as me
> (somehow I have no problem reconciling singleness with being a Cook reader).
> Anyway,
> just wondering how many others are in my demographic.
>
> christopher....
>
> p.s. if your weren't old enough to see Star Wars in the theater the first
> time you're
> not in the demographic.
>
> =======================================================================
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>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.


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From: "S. Townsend" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 09 Sep 2000 07:38:27 -0500

I'm 31, male, single, and it's hard to get more midwest then bloomingon, illinois.
I've been reading cook since 82'.

As for the rest of the details, they're subjective so I won't bother mentioning
them.  But I actually figured that most cook readers fit a similar profile.  Cook
to me seems to bring out the smarter/more mature readers, but that may just be
ego.  It certainly seems the members of this list are certainly quite literate, in
every sense of the word.

"C.L. Yona" wrote:

> Own my own business (so I work full-time and a half), 32, male, well-adjusted,
> even have a girlfriend and everything (who is currently devouring Soldiers
> Live).
>
> [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > So I am 30, male, single, make around $25,000, live in the midwest (US for
> > those...),
> > been reading Cook for two years, but I get the feeling that I am probably one
> > of the
> > oldest people on this list. While my sex insures that I am with the majority,
> > I somehow
> > get an impression few of those out there are employed fulltime or are as old
> > as me
> > (somehow I have no problem reconciling singleness with being a Cook reader).
> > Anyway,
> > just wondering how many others are in my demographic.
> >
> > christopher....
> >
> > p.s. if your weren't old enough to see Star Wars in the theater the first
> > time you're
> > not in the demographic.
> >
> > =======================================================================
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> >  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
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From: Chris Holko <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: SL SPOILER (well, kinda)
Date: 09 Sep 2000 10:19:47 -0400

On Fri, 08 Sep 2000 18:36:25 -0500, you wrote:


>Idle spoiler question--anybody else wonder if Lady was going to use her =
new
>powers to "reset" the clock?  Is she is vain as her sister?


Is she vain?  Perhaps at one time she was vain.  Is her sister vain?
I doubt it,  she's too insane/amoral to care....   let alone the fact
she always wore armor/leather to conceal her looks. =20

As for the Lady using her powers to become young again.  I would
believe she would,  and that it would in turn make Croaker happy.  I
think he realizes that woman he fell in love with is all the things
people both love and hate about her.  Her beauty was a signature,
being one of the original "taken" she was the one most described as
NOT wearing a disguise,  she is the Lonely woman of Charm.

As for continuing the story.  I would go out on a limb and state that
I think the "girls" (read - Croaker's adopted daughters) may have read
the effect wrong.  I am quite sure that the Lady and Croaker are as
much entwined as they were in the physical world.  Perhaps they are in
essence sharing the same life now.  He provides the mechanism to link
up to rescue her,  and she responds by playing again.  (Remember she
was twirling fireballs - that sounds more playful than anything else)

Anyway,  if he did continue it,  I would like to see Croaker and the
Lady to both become spirits of the plain.  IOW- she escapes her fear
of physical death and together they roam the universe.

In the end of the North books,  I would figure Lady knew what the lack
of "her" in the future meant.  Being resigned at that time tells me
that she is a lot less vain than people expect.  Granted she had a
hard time living with it,  but in the end she adapted.


Chris

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.=20

www.archonon.com

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From: Chris Holko <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 09 Sep 2000 10:22:27 -0400

On Sat, 9 Sep 2000 01:10:43 EDT, you wrote:

>So I am 30, male, single, make around $25,000, live in the midwest (US =
for=20
>those...),
>been reading Cook for two years, but I get the feeling that I am =
probably one=20
>of the
>oldest people on this list. While my sex insures that I am with the =
majority,=20
>I somehow
>get an impression few of those out there are employed fulltime or are as=
 old=20
>as me
>(somehow I have no problem reconciling singleness with being a Cook =
reader).=20
>Anyway,
>just wondering how many others are in my demographic.


I'm 35,  having read Cook since the Black Company in 85.  I have the
first three books in the combined hardcover.... and most of the last
series all in hardback.  (anyone know where I can buy ALL of the books
from Silver Spike and on in HC? - up to 2nd book of GS?)

I am a computer programmer/analyst on the AS/400,  and live in
Georgia.  (btw - I am male - go figure).  I make a good living,  and
have my own home,  a motorcycle, and a miata  - yes I am single - I
have a life,  no wife   ;)


Chris
Chris

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.=20

www.archonon.com

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From: Jeff Wragg <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Re: Demographics
Date: 09 Sep 2000 10:50:24 -0400

I'm 48, a PhD physicist (in academia most of the time), semi-retired
skydiver, married and live in Charleston,SC, although if home is where the
heart is, I'm an Idaho boy.  Other physicists to whom I have introduced the
series (one male and one female) have enjoyed it greatly.  The male is
older than I am and the female is much younger.  I think I first read Cook
in about 1993, the first book I read was Silver Spike.

I'm also the author of the maps at --  http://www.cofc.edu/~wraggj/blackco/



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From: "Joseph McGrath" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: Demographics
Date: 09 Sep 2000 12:30:27 -0000

I'm 37 and have been reading Cook since about 92 - 93. i saw star wars when
i was 12.....
what do you mean that doesn't put me in the demographic???? I don't think
Cook himself will see fifty again. You're probably right about the fact that
there are not a-lot of females reading the black company but hopefully that
will change.   (Aside to Jeff,.... Great job on the maps! I was wondering
where you would put the, "Grove of Doom." )
---- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 2:50 PM


> I'm 48, a PhD physicist (in academia most of the time), semi-retired
> skydiver, married and live in Charleston,SC, although if home is where the
> heart is, I'm an Idaho boy.  Other physicists to whom I have introduced
the
> series (one male and one female) have enjoyed it greatly.  The male is
> older than I am and the female is much younger.  I think I first read Cook
> in about 1993, the first book I read was Silver Spike.
>
> I'm also the author of the maps at --
http://www.cofc.edu/~wraggj/blackco/
>
>
>
> =======================================================================
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 09 Sep 2000 12:37:44 EDT

In a message dated 9/9/00 12:11:58 AM Central Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< So I am 30, male, single, make around $25,000, live in the midwest (US for
 those...),
 been reading Cook for two years, but I get the feeling that I am probably
one
 of the
 oldest people on this list. >>

Male, married, 40, live in the south, been reading Cook since the White Rose
was published.

Pete

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From: "Richard Gruver" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Demographics
Date: 09 Sep 2000 12:28:28 -0500

I'm a 53 year old male. I have been married for 30 yrs and have 2 grown
kids. I have been a Registered Nurse  for the last 25 yrs and bring in about
50 grand per year. I have been reading Sci Fi since I was about 12 years old
and Fantasy since I discovered Tolkien while in the service back in the late
60's. I first read Cook somtime in the late 80's. I started with the Black
Company and have read all of the BC and the Garrett series. I have all the
others but have just gotten around to reading the Darkwar trilogy (in the
middle of Ceremony now).For some reason I didn't expect to like it but I've
been pleasantly surprised. I plan on sarting the Dread Empire stories next.
 BTW the Black Company series was not printed in hardback until Bleak
Seasons, with the exception of the Book Club printing of the compilation of
the first trilogy.

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 9:22 AM


On Sat, 9 Sep 2000 01:10:43 EDT, you wrote:

>So I am 30, male, single, make around $25,000, live in the midwest (US for
>those...),
>been reading Cook for two years, but I get the feeling that I am probably
one
>of the
>oldest people on this list. While my sex insures that I am with the
majority,
>I somehow
>get an impression few of those out there are employed fulltime or are as
old
>as me
>(somehow I have no problem reconciling singleness with being a Cook
reader).
>Anyway,
>just wondering how many others are in my demographic.


I'm 35,  having read Cook since the Black Company in 85.  I have the
first three books in the combined hardcover.... and most of the last
series all in hardback.  (anyone know where I can buy ALL of the books
from Silver Spike and on in HC? - up to 2nd book of GS?)

I am a computer programmer/analyst on the AS/400,  and live in
Georgia.  (btw - I am male - go figure).  I make a good living,  and
have my own home,  a motorcycle, and a miata  - yes I am single - I
have a life,  no wife   ;)


Chris
Chris

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

www.archonon.com

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From: "Don" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 31 Aug 2000 06:16:57 -0500

I am 26 and don't give a damn if I fit into your demographic. Single, until
about March. I am a full-time employee and I saw Star Wars in the theater
but don't remember it very well. I live in Texas.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 12:10 AM


> So I am 30, male, single, make around $25,000, live in the midwest (US for
> those...),
> been reading Cook for two years, but I get the feeling that I am probably
one
> of the
> oldest people on this list. While my sex insures that I am with the
majority,
> I somehow
> get an impression few of those out there are employed fulltime or are as
old
> as me
> (somehow I have no problem reconciling singleness with being a Cook
reader).
> Anyway,
> just wondering how many others are in my demographic.
>
> christopher....
>
> p.s. if your weren't old enough to see Star Wars in the theater the first
> time you're
> not in the demographic.
>
> =======================================================================
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>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>


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From: Steve Harris <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 09 Sep 2000 13:09:09 -0500

I'm 49, a math professor.  Been reading Cook since I was introduced to
him by another math professor some 10 years ago.  SF/F is not
unappreciated in some corners of academe :)

Steve

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From: David Ainsworth <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 09 Sep 2000 13:29:18 -0500

At 01:10 AM 9/9/2000 EDT, [e-mail] wrote:
>Anyway,
>just wondering how many others are in my demographic.

27, studying for a PhD in English Lit, from Maryland but also currently in
the Midwest.

And I did see Star Wars in the theater... though who knows how much of it I
understood.

Started with the Black Company after finding it at the local library back in
86.  Loved it, couldn't locate a sequel, mentally put it on a list of books
to watch out for, and promptly forgot.

Five years later I found the Annals of the Black Company (3-in-one SFBC
edition) in a used bookstore.  Two months later I had every BC book
published at that time.

And with all the reading I do professionally, I still find time to reread BC
at least once a year...

David


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From: "anthony palermo" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 09 Sep 2000 14:44:32 -0500

I am a 30, male, gainfully employed as a financial aid rep for a local
college here in the Twin Cities, married to a Math Instructor, home-owner,
and have the pleasure of sharing my abode with an English Bulldog by the
name of Roger BigPants (2 years old).  Glen Cook was introduced to me by the
Owner of Dreamhaven Books in Dinkytown (outside the U of MN East Bank
Campus) 'round 'bout 1990.  In short time I had all the BC and Garrett books
bought and read and have kept up with all of Cook's stuff since (really
enjoyed Tower of Fear).  Recently acquired two books in the Dread Empire
series but am holding off til I have them all.  From the recommendations on
this list, I just checked THE DRAGON NEVER SLEEPS out of the library.  I
have also successfully recommended the BC series to two friends and I am
working on a third (however, he will be difficult, as comic books are STILL
his preferred form of literature...nothing wrong with that but I feel he
should open UP a bit).

Tony
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 1:29 PM


> At 01:10 AM 9/9/2000 EDT, [e-mail] wrote:
> >Anyway,
> >just wondering how many others are in my demographic.
>
> 27, studying for a PhD in English Lit, from Maryland but also currently in
> the Midwest.
>
> And I did see Star Wars in the theater... though who knows how much of it
I
> understood.
>
> Started with the Black Company after finding it at the local library back
in
> 86.  Loved it, couldn't locate a sequel, mentally put it on a list of
books
> to watch out for, and promptly forgot.
>
> Five years later I found the Annals of the Black Company (3-in-one SFBC
> edition) in a used bookstore.  Two months later I had every BC book
> published at that time.
>
> And with all the reading I do professionally, I still find time to reread
BC
> at least once a year...
>
> David
>
>
> =======================================================================
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From: Dustin A Miller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 09 Sep 2000 14:17:56 -0700

I'm 18 and currently studying to be a high school history teacher.  Don't
give a damn about age or anything.   I've been reading the Black Company
books for years.  A couple of my female friends love them as well.

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From: Mike Waligorski <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 09 Sep 2000 16:36:07 -0500

35 male dental hygienist.  Been Reading Cook since "The Black Company" was
released.  Have almost all of his books now.  I've gotten 3 or 4 others
hooked on Cook.



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From: "PrimalChrome" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 09 Sep 2000 17:48:40 -0500

Married male, 28, with two weimaraners and a child on the way.  Live in the
southeastern US with a full time job and a family income of $100+.  I saw
the original Star Wars in the Riverchase Movie theater as a child.

>shrug<



-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of
[e-mail]
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 12:11 AM


So I am 30, male, single, make around $25,000, live in the midwest (US for
those...),
been reading Cook for two years, but I get the feeling that I am probably
one
of the
oldest people on this list. While my sex insures that I am with the
majority,
I somehow
get an impression few of those out there are employed fulltime or are as old
as me
(somehow I have no problem reconciling singleness with being a Cook reader).
Anyway,
just wondering how many others are in my demographic.

christopher....

p.s. if your weren't old enough to see Star Wars in the theater the first
time you're
not in the demographic.

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From: Tyler Fain <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) The Dragon Never Sleeps (spoilers)
Date: 09 Sep 2000 17:00:13 -0700 (PDT)

I finished this novel a few days ago and was just
wondering why some of you felt it was Cook's best
book? I certainly enjoyed it, but to me the ending was
a bit of a letdown. One of my favorite scenes was the
first big battle between Simon's powerful ship and the
three Guardships. And it seemed like there always
something going around somebody else's back throughout
the novel. There were many interesting characters such
as Jo Klass, Simon Provik, and Kez Maefele as well.
I'm not a big SF fan only read some Bradbury and Dune.
Bought it off abebooks.com for $12.

--

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

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From: "Don" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Windwhales
Date: 31 Aug 2000 12:42:09 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I was rereading The Starfisher series again and noticed something I had =
forgotten. On page 66 Niven ( one of the character's several names in =
the book looks over to a "holorama and sees an image of a faraway world. =

"He glanced back at the holorama. It was portraying one of the furious =
electrical storms in the Gununga Gap on Camelot. A heard of windwhales =
quartered toward him through the rain and lightning."
I just thought it was pretty kewl. Are there any other creatures, items =
that cross series like that in Cook's writings?=20

Don=20
"In time, what's deserved always gets served."- COC



------=_NextPart_000_00A5_01C01348.E09973E0
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I was rereading The Starfisher series =
again and=20
noticed something I had forgotten. On page 66 Niven ( one of the =
character's=20
several names in the book looks over to a "holorama and sees an image of =
a=20
faraway world. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"He glanced back at the holorama. It =
was portraying=20
one of the furious electrical storms in the Gununga Gap on Camelot. A =
heard of=20
windwhales quartered toward him through the rain and =
lightning."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I just thought it was pretty kewl. Are =
there any=20
other creatures, items that cross series like that in Cook's writings?=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>Don <BR>"In time, what's deserved =
always gets=20
served."- COC</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00A5_01C01348.E09973E0--


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From: Eric Herrmann <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Windwhales
Date: 09 Sep 2000 18:32:37 -0600

on 8/31/00 11:42 AM, Don at [e-mail] wrote:

> I was rereading The Starfisher series again and noticed something I had
> forgotten. On page 66 Niven ( one of the character's several names in the book
> looks over to a "holorama and sees an image of a faraway world.
> "He glanced back at the holorama. It was portraying one of the furious
> electrical storms in the Gununga Gap on Camelot. A heard of windwhales
> quartered toward him through the rain and lightning."

Details about the world Camelot, the windwhales, and the mantas can be found
in the short story "In The Wind". Much more so than in "The White Rose". In
fact there is a lot of similarity between the events of "In The Wind" and
the Lady's attack on the Plain.
<http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/Books/InTheWind.html>

I had Michael Sweet ask Glen if there was a connection between Camelot and
the Plain of Fear. His answer was:

"He didn't understand the question.  He said the Plain of Fear is unrelated
to anything he has written."

> I just thought it was pretty kewl. Are there any other creatures, items that
> cross series like that in Cook's writings?

Not that I'm aware of.

--
Eric Herrmann
<[e-mail]>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 09 Sep 2000 20:52:37 EDT

38, female, medical biller, have been reading Cook since BC first came out.
Kept trying to get my fiance to try BC, but he didn't until another friend
recommended it to him (/me rolls eyes).

Now, he doesn't like the non-Croaker narrated books and was unable to get far
into "Water Sleeps".   Do any of you think that he'll be able to enjoy
"Soldiers Live" without having read "WS" ?

Donna

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From: "Tim McDowell" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 09 Sep 2000 18:08:08 -0700

    Greetings Chris;

        I'm 48, gainfully employed (whatever that means), make under $25K
per year. Born and raise in the Willamette (if you say it right you get a
cigar) Valley in the State of Oregon (soon to be wet *again*). I have piles
of SF/F, military fiction, crafts, etc., ad naseum that have migrated from
my 3 bookshelves. I did see Star Wars all those years ago.

    Can't say I agree with everything you say, but I'll defend your right to
say it.



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From: "Amy Weathers" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 06 Sep 2000 16:07:27 -0600

Well I am 26, female and single. I have worked as a probation officer for
the past three years. My household income is over 55K (though I really don't
know what that has to do with anything) and I live in New Mexico.  I know I
saw Return of the Jedi in a drive-in movie theater but I honestly donÆt
remember anything other than the thing you put on your car to better hear
the movie.

The first Glen Cook book I read was The Swordbearer in 1990. I bought in a
grocery store on the way to California.  Since then, I have read the entire
Black Company series (multiple times), the entire Garret Files, as well as
The Tower of Fear.  I have all but one book in the Dread Empire series, but
until I locate OctoberÆs Baby I donÆt want to read that series.  IÆve been
reading fantasy novels since I was 10 or so and continue to enjoy
discovering ônewö authors.  IÆve introduced at least three dozen people
(including people from Russia, Brazil and the Netherlands) to Glen Cook and
many of them still come borrow the books from me when the new ones come out.
Somewhere along the way I have missed placed my copy of The Silver Spike, at
least I wasnÆt too fond of that one.

It is very interesting to see the different demographics of people that
enjoy this author.  As IÆve stated before, there was a time when I thought I
was the only one out there that read Cook and that it was entirely up to me
to clue the rest of the world into him.

Amy




-----Original Message-----


>38, female, medical biller, have been reading Cook since BC first came out.
>Kept trying to get my fiance to try BC, but he didn't until another friend
>recommended it to him (/me rolls eyes).
>
>Now, he doesn't like the non-Croaker narrated books and was unable to get
far
>into "Water Sleeps".   Do any of you think that he'll be able to enjoy
>"Soldiers Live" without having read "WS" ?
>
>Donna
>
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>


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From: Steve Harris <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 09 Sep 2000 20:48:33 -0500

Tim,

Ahh, the Willamette :)  I lived half a dozen years in Corvallis in the
80's (didn't know Cook at that time).  There's quite a few SF writers in
the PNW.

Steve

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From: "Michele" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: SL SPOILER (well, kinda)
Date: 09 Sep 2000 22:30:31 -0400

To reply to two birds with one message...


On 8 Sep 00, at 12:38, Joseph McGrath wrote:


>Remember when Croaker said to her, "I love you and I'm glad the
>fates conspired to bring us together."



and

On 9 Sep 00, at 1:10, [e-mail] wrote:

<color><param>0000,0000,7F00</param>>

<color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>>Listen Sweetie, ifana I wanna call some chick cupcake, or honey,
 >or muskmelon...

> Just kidding....



Actually I have nothing against the word "honey".  It just seemed
out of character for Croaker - as far as I can remember he tends to
depreciate his endearments with ironic comments.  Croaker's
admission of love was more in keeping with what I "know" of him.


<color><param>0000,0000,7F00</param>

> p.s. I see you sign your email "M." Ever read the comic "Faust,"
by

> Tim Vigil? Blacker than the Black Co., more twisted than a

> contortionist at a frat party.


<color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>Nope - never read it, I'm just too lazy to type out my name ;-)

M


<nofill>
Michele
[e-mail]

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From: "Michele" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 09 Sep 2000 22:30:31 -0400


I saw Star Wars in the theatre - so I guess I'm in your
demographic.  I'm employed full-time (and hating every minute of
it), from the Northeast.  I've been reading Cook since the mid 80's
when I was attending college in Bar Harbor, ME



On 9 Sep 00, at 1:10, [e-mail] wrote:

> Anyway, just wondering how many others are in my demographic.
>
> christopher....
>
> p.s. if your weren't old enough to see Star Wars in the theater the
> first time you're not in the demographic.
>
> ======================================================================
> =
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.


Michele
[e-mail]

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From: Eric Herrmann <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Milestone
Date: 09 Sep 2000 20:44:08 -0600

[Please reply privately.]

It may not seem like much in comparison to other sites, but today the Glen
Cook fan page passed 40,000 hits.

Now to change the subject slightly...

This year I made it a priority to expand the bibliography beyond just the
American novels. Now there are some 138 bibliographic entries for 40 novels,
2 omnibuses, and 22 short stories published in 12 countries. There are some
150 thumbnail images with 137 full images of the book and magazine covers.
(Thank you to all the contributors!
<http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Credit2.html>)

And, amazingly, the work still isn't done yet. So I'm making an appeal to
the list for some help with the few remaining difficult ones.

Below is a short list of known editions that I am looking for information
and cover scans of. Perhaps some of you own copies of these or have
connections that do.

    USA
        "The Waiting Sea", Archon 7 Program Book, 1983
        "In The Wind", Tomorrow Today (Hardcover), 1975
        "First Contact", Tsunami vol 1 no 1, 1972
    Brazil
        "The Heirs of Babylon", 1980
    Germany
        "The Heirs of Babylon"
    Norway
        "The Devil's Tooth", Gandalf, 1977
    Russia
        (I'll be concentrating on Russia later this year. If you can help
with Russia let me know.)
    UK
        "The Black Company", ROC, 1992
        "Shadowline"
        "Starfishers"
        "Star's End"

There may still be editions that aren't known to me both in the US and
abroad. (Those that have short story anthologies might browse their TOC in
their spare time.)

I'm also accepting cover scans of advanced, uncorrected proofs and reissue
printings.

If you can help out in providing cover scans or bibliographic information
please let me know.

Again, please respond privately.

Thanks,

--
Eric Herrmann
<[e-mail]>


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From: "Joseph McGrath" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Windwhales
Date: 09 Sep 2000 22:57:34 -0000

Hi Eric, This Joe McGrath, You said you had Michael Sweet ask Glen
something. Is there any way to find out where his next appearance at a
fanasy/sci fi convention will be and when? His books got me through some
rocky times here and there. It would be nice to thank him, and let him know
that his writing is appreciated. Or maybe where i could get the entire dread
empire series, seeing as it is out of print. I've read every,"Garrett File,"
and every, "BC," book, including the, "Books of the south," over and over.
No other auther has got me psyched lately. Not since Tolkien or Casteneda or
maybe Philip Jose Farmer.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2000 12:32 AM


> on 8/31/00 11:42 AM, Don at [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > I was rereading The Starfisher series again and noticed something I had
> > forgotten. On page 66 Niven ( one of the character's several names in
the book
> > looks over to a "holorama and sees an image of a faraway world.
> > "He glanced back at the holorama. It was portraying one of the furious
> > electrical storms in the Gununga Gap on Camelot. A heard of windwhales
> > quartered toward him through the rain and lightning."
>
> Details about the world Camelot, the windwhales, and the mantas can be
found
> in the short story "In The Wind". Much more so than in "The White Rose".
In
> fact there is a lot of similarity between the events of "In The Wind" and
> the Lady's attack on the Plain.
> <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/Books/InTheWind.html>
>
> I had Michael Sweet ask Glen if there was a connection between Camelot and
> the Plain of Fear. His answer was:
>
> "He didn't understand the question.  He said the Plain of Fear is
unrelated
> to anything he has written."
>
> > I just thought it was pretty kewl. Are there any other creatures, items
that
> > cross series like that in Cook's writings?
>
> Not that I'm aware of.
>
> --
> Eric Herrmann
> <[e-mail]>
>
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.


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From: Tom Duncan <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 09 Sep 2000 22:18:18 -0500

Lost the original email that asked for demographics.....
Sex - Male (just begging to put a stright line here but will behave...)
Age - 42
Income - 80k
Location - Texas
Profession - Computer Consulant/Network Admin.
Started reading Cook with The Black Company when it was first published, I
have everything by him with the exception of the Swap Academy and on one
level or another have enjoyed them all.


Michele wrote:

> I saw Star Wars in the theatre - so I guess I'm in your
> demographic.  I'm employed full-time (and hating every minute of
> it), from the Northeast.  I've been reading Cook since the mid 80's
> when I was attending college in Bar Harbor, ME
>
> On 9 Sep 00, at 1:10, [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > Anyway, just wondering how many others are in my demographic.
> >
> > christopher....
> >
> > p.s. if your weren't old enough to see Star Wars in the theater the
> > first time you're not in the demographic.
> >
> > ======================================================================
> > =
> >  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> >  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
> Michele
> [e-mail]
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph McGrath" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: SL SPOILER (well, kinda)
Date: 10 Sep 2000 00:23:15 -0000

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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    Hi Michelle, it's Joseph McGrath, I hope you don't mind this e-mail. =
But i'm intrigued. about what you like from Cooks writing....=20
    Because the Company is so militaristic and has such large doses of =
psychological warfare going on all the time. This usually turns off many =
potential women readers, initialy.. usually they don't get far enough =
before this happens to get to a more balancing out of the gender thing, =
which obviously happens. And really this has been a big selling point =
for me. Cook is so multi-faceted because he uses his internal dialogue =
as a narrative source. And you get to hear his petty prejudices that =
drive some of his decision making. Also he tries to relate from the =
standpoint of most of his characters to explain their behavior. I think =
it's interesting that he can give so many characters so many different =
motivations. And it seems the older he gets the better he gets at =
developing characters you like. He surprises you that way by alowing the =
reader to empathise with each character. On the other hand his =
demonstrations of manipulation should be part of the draw for women. =
It's just cloaked in such a menacing facade....
    Well, I live on the north Shore of Boston    [e-mail]
    Thanx for listening.
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Michele=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2000 2:30 AM
  Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: SL SPOILER (well, kinda)


  To reply to two birds with one message...=20

  On 8 Sep 00, at 12:38, Joseph McGrath wrote:=20

  >Remember when Croaker said to her, "I love you and I'm glad the =
>fates conspired to bring us together."=20


  and=20
  On 9 Sep 00, at 1:10, [e-mail] wrote:=20
  >=20
  >Listen Sweetie, ifana I wanna call some chick cupcake, or honey, >or =
muskmelon...=20
  > Just kidding....=20


  Actually I have nothing against the word "honey". It just seemed out =
of character for Croaker - as far as I can remember he tends to =
depreciate his endearments with ironic comments. Croaker's admission of =
love was more in keeping with what I "know" of him.=20


  > p.s. I see you sign your email "M." Ever read the comic "Faust," by=20
  > Tim Vigil? Blacker than the Black Co., more twisted than a=20
  > contortionist at a frat party.=20

  Nope - never read it, I'm just too lazy to type out my name ;-)=20
  M=20


Michele
[e-mail]

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
 To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
 visit .


------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C01ABD.4FADB860
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    Hi Michelle, it's =
Joseph=20
McGrath, I hope you don't mind this e-mail. But i'm intrigued. about =
what you=20
like from Cooks writing.... </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    Because the Company =
is so=20
militaristic and has such large doses of psychological warfare going on =
all the=20
time. This usually turns off many potential women readers, initialy.. =
usually=20
they don't get far enough before this happens to get to a more balancing =
out of=20
the gender thing, which obviously happens. And really this has been a =
big=20
selling point for me. Cook is so multi-faceted because he uses his =
internal=20
dialogue as a narrative source. And you get to hear his petty prejudices =
that=20
drive some of his decision making. Also he tries to relate from the =
standpoint=20
of most of his characters to explain their behavior. I think it's =
interesting=20
that he can give so many characters so many different motivations. And =
it seems=20
the older he gets the better he gets at developing characters you like. =
He=20
surprises you that way by alowing the reader to empathise with each =
character.=20
On the other hand his demonstrations of manipulation should be part of =
the draw=20
for women. It's just cloaked in such a menacing facade....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    Well, I live on the =
north Shore=20
of Boston    <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A></FONT><=
/DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    Thanx for=20
listening.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" title=[e-mail]>Michele</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  =
title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, September 10, =
2000 2:30=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: (glencook-fans) =
Re: SL=20
  SPOILER (well, kinda)</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>To reply to two birds with one message... <BR><BR>On 8 =
Sep 00,=20
  at 12:38, Joseph McGrath wrote: <BR><BR>>Remember when Croaker said =
to her,=20
  "I love you and I'm glad the >fates conspired to bring us =
together."=20
  <BR><BR><BR>and <BR>On 9 Sep 00, at 1:10, <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> wrote: =
<BR><?color><?param 0000,0000,7F00>>=20
  <BR><?color><?param 0000,0000,0000>>Listen Sweetie, ifana I wanna =
call some=20
  chick cupcake, or honey, >or muskmelon... <BR>> Just kidding.... =

  <BR><BR><BR>Actually I have nothing against the word "honey". It just =
seemed=20
  out of character for Croaker - as far as I can remember he tends to =
depreciate=20
  his endearments with ironic comments. Croaker's admission of love was =
more in=20
  keeping with what I "know" of him.=20
  <BR><BR><?color><?param 0000,0000,7F00><BR>> p.s. I see you sign =
your email=20
  "M." Ever read the comic "Faust," by <BR>> Tim Vigil? Blacker than =
the=20
  Black Co., more twisted than a <BR>> contortionist at a frat party. =

<BR><BR><?color><?param 0000,0000,0000>Nope - never read it, I'm just =
too lazy=20
  to type out my name ;-) <BR>M <BR><BR><PRE>Michele
[e-mail]

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
 To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
 visit =
<?http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/gc/gc-mail.html>.</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><=
/BODY></HTML>

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From: [e-mail] (Steve Chew)
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Windwhales
Date: 10 Sep 2000 03:08:47 -0400 (EDT)

>
>Hi Eric, This Joe McGrath, You said you had Michael Sweet ask Glen
>something. Is there any way to find out where his next appearance at a
>fanasy/sci fi convention will be and when? His books got me through some
>rocky times here and there. It would be nice to thank him, and let him know
>that his writing is appreciated. Or maybe where i could get the entire dread
>empire series, seeing as it is out of print. I've read every,"Garrett File,"
>and every, "BC," book, including the, "Books of the south," over and over.
>No other auther has got me psyched lately. Not since Tolkien or Casteneda or
>maybe Philip Jose Farmer.
>

Joe,
    Glen Cook is going to be the guest of honor at Albacon which is
a convention in Schenectady, NY  (near Albany) from October 6th - 8th.
You can visit the web page at:    http://www.albacon.org  I'm considering
heading up there to check it out (and to visit a friend in the area).
I don't know of any other appearances.
    While I'm at it, does anyone out there have any more questions
to ask of Cook?  I can take a list of questions up there to ask him.
Just email me your questions.  I can also take requests for books,
since I assume he'll be selling his books there too (or maybe not if
he's guest of honor?).  If I find the books you want, I'll just ask
that you pay my shipping costs to mail it to you (plus the price of
the book).
    Let me know.

                Steve



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From: Pete Flugstad <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Windwhales
Date: 10 Sep 2000 09:29:28 -0500

Could you ask Glen what conventions he plans on attending in the future (the
ones he knows at least)?  I'd like to get to some of them if they are near
enough.

Thanks,
Pete

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: (glencook-fans) Future Cons- was Re: Windwhales
Date: 10 Sep 2000 10:33:57 EDT

Steve, a few messages back Amy Weathers said she was missing Octobers Baby.
As of last July that was the only DE book Glen had at his dealers table, and
he had multiple copies of it. If you do go to this con could you please
update all of us on what books of his he currently has in stock?

Michael W Sweet

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 10 Sep 2000 10:38:39 EDT

Single male, 36, gainfully employed, saw Star Wars multiple times at the
theater. Location: Tulsa.

Trivia: How many references to Tulsa are there in all of Glens books?

Michael W Sweet

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From: "Amy Weathers" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Future Cons- was Re: Windwhales
Date: 10 Sep 2000 23:26:29 -0600

I would be very happy to get a copy of OctoberÆs Baby.  I would be more than
willing to pay shipping/handling/cost of book/whatever.

I have OctoberÆs Baby on several wanted lists at used books stores in my
home area.  This has been the case for the last eight or so years.

Amy


-


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From: "Richard Gruver" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Milestone
Date: 10 Sep 2000 13:15:50 -0500

I have a Proof  Cover of  The Swordbearer which was not used for the actual
cover if you are interested. It is a much wider view of the original cover
with the dragon rider in the background and the swordbearer in the
foreground. I would be glad to scan it for you if you want.
Richard Gruver ( [e-mail] )

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 9:44 PM


> [Please reply privately.]
>
> It may not seem like much in comparison to other sites, but today the Glen
> Cook fan page passed 40,000 hits.
>
> Now to change the subject slightly...
>
> This year I made it a priority to expand the bibliography beyond just the
> American novels. Now there are some 138 bibliographic entries for 40
novels,
> 2 omnibuses, and 22 short stories published in 12 countries. There are
some
> 150 thumbnail images with 137 full images of the book and magazine covers.
> (Thank you to all the contributors!
> <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Credit2.html>)
>
> And, amazingly, the work still isn't done yet. So I'm making an appeal to
> the list for some help with the few remaining difficult ones.
>
> Below is a short list of known editions that I am looking for information
> and cover scans of. Perhaps some of you own copies of these or have
> connections that do.
>
>     USA
>         "The Waiting Sea", Archon 7 Program Book, 1983
>         "In The Wind", Tomorrow Today (Hardcover), 1975
>         "First Contact", Tsunami vol 1 no 1, 1972
>     Brazil
>         "The Heirs of Babylon", 1980
>     Germany
>         "The Heirs of Babylon"
>     Norway
>         "The Devil's Tooth", Gandalf, 1977
>     Russia
>         (I'll be concentrating on Russia later this year. If you can help
> with Russia let me know.)
>     UK
>         "The Black Company", ROC, 1992
>         "Shadowline"
>         "Starfishers"
>         "Star's End"
>
> There may still be editions that aren't known to me both in the US and
> abroad. (Those that have short story anthologies might browse their TOC in
> their spare time.)
>
> I'm also accepting cover scans of advanced, uncorrected proofs and reissue
> printings.
>
> If you can help out in providing cover scans or bibliographic information
> please let me know.
>
> Again, please respond privately.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Eric Herrmann
> <[e-mail]>
>
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 10 Sep 2000 18:24:35 EDT

Okay, so after reading this thread I have to say I was wrong. Guess I was
just in one of those "feeling old" moods. Sometimes I feel like I'm reading
books I should have given up in my later teens.

It was/is interesting to see people's replies though.

christopher....

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From: "Peter Donald" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 09 Sep 2000 21:52:36 -0400

On Sat, 9 Sep 2000 01:10:43 EDT, [e-mail] wrote:

>So I am 30, male, single, make around $25,000, live in the midwest (US for
>those...), been reading Cook for two years, but I get the feeling that I am probably one
>of the oldest people on this list

    30?  Yer jes' a pup...;-).  Meself, I'm 35, married, gainfully
employed, living in the Penguin Republic far in the south of the world,
saw SW in the theatre the day it opened, been reading Cook
for...shit...I can believe it's been almost twenty years...(my first
Cook was _A Shadow of All Night Falling_, first edition).


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From: "Amy Weathers" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: SL SPOILER (well, kinda)
Date: 10 Sep 2000 17:53:41 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am not sure if you had intended for this mail to be a private mail or =
not but I feel compelled to reply even though I am not Michelle. Hope =
neither of you take too much offense.

I didn=92t start with the BC. I started with the Swordbearer. Cook=92s =
ability to weave a spellbinding story and to leave a story unfinished, =
making you want more, gripped me from the start. As soon as I returned =
form my trip, I began my search for more of Cook=92s books. I was =
expecting to find a continuation of the Swordbearer, instead I found The =
Black Company and I have loved them every since. I can think of many =
authors who I have given up on after waiting just one or two years for =
their next book to come out, yet in Cook=92s case, after a six year =
wait, I was right there to pick up Bleak Seasons. Every-time I move I =
clean out old books that are just collecting dust, yet four moves later, =
I still have my incomplete Dread Empire series. What is it about Cook =
that appeals to me so much? I am not sure.

What is it about the BC that appeals to me? I am sure it is many of the =
same things that appeal to all the male readers out there. I like the BC =
because of its gritting realism and attention to detail. In the fantasy =
realm, I think Cook=92s BC is one of the best portrayals of the =
mercenary life style. They were not always the good guys. Some of the =
things they did in Beryl were pretty cruel.

His writing style with Croaker is great too. Croaker is such a cynical =
bastard, I love it. I think I was hooked from the first paragraph on; =
"There were prodigies and portents enough, One-Eye say. We must blame =
ourselves for misinterpreting them. One-eye=92s handicap in no way =
impairs his marvelous hindsight." BC pg. 7. I think that sums up the =
whole series pretty well.

I was taken with the Taken from the start. The mystery and intrigue that =
surrounds them alone was enough to keep me coming back. Cook wrote =
himself such an interesting cast of =91bad guys" to throw at the BC. And =
the fact that they kept popping up even after everyone thought they were =
dead. I read She is the Darkness in one setting just to get to the =
bottom of who Longshadow was, as I just knew he was going to be one of =
the Taken (can=92t be right all the time).

In a nut shell, I like Cook=92s writing because it is well done and =
tells a good tale. Sure his stories don=92t always deal with the nicest =
parts of humanity, but hey the world we all live in isn=92t always the =
nicest place either.

Amy

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Joseph McGrath <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] =
<[e-mail]>
    Cc: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Saturday, September 09, 2000 10:35 PM
    Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: SL SPOILER (well, kinda)
   =20
   =20
        Hi Michelle, it's Joseph McGrath, I hope you don't mind this =
e-mail. But i'm intrigued. about what you like from Cooks writing....=20
        Because the Company is so militaristic and has such large doses =
of psychological warfare going on all the time. This usually turns off =
many potential women readers, initialy.. usually they don't get far =
enough before this happens to get to a more balancing out of the gender =
thing, which obviously happens. And really this has been a big selling =
point for me. Cook is so multi-faceted because he uses his internal =
dialogue as a narrative source. And you get to hear his petty prejudices =
that drive some of his decision making. Also he tries to relate from the =
standpoint of most of his characters to explain their behavior. I think =
it's interesting that he can give so many characters so many different =
motivations. And it seems the older he gets the better he gets at =
developing characters you like. He surprises you that way by alowing the =
reader to empathise with each character. On the other hand his =
demonstrations of manipulation should be part of the draw for women. =
It's just cloaked in such a menacing facade....
        Well, I live on the north Shore of Boston    =
[e-mail]
        Thanx for listening.
        ----- Original Message -----=20
        From: Michele=20
        To: [e-mail]=20
        Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2000 2:30 AM
        Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: SL SPOILER (well, kinda)
       =20
       =20
        To reply to two birds with one message...=20
       =20
        On 8 Sep 00, at 12:38, Joseph McGrath wrote:=20
       =20
        >Remember when Croaker said to her, "I love you and I'm glad the =
>fates conspired to bring us together."=20
       =20
       =20
        and=20
        On 9 Sep 00, at 1:10, [e-mail] wrote:=20
        >=20
        >Listen Sweetie, ifana I wanna call some chick cupcake, or =
honey, >or muskmelon...=20
        > Just kidding....=20
       =20
       =20
        Actually I have nothing against the word "honey". It just seemed =
out of character for Croaker - as far as I can remember he tends to =
depreciate his endearments with ironic comments. Croaker's admission of =
love was more in keeping with what I "know" of him.=20
       =20
       =20
        > p.s. I see you sign your email "M." Ever read the comic =
"Faust," by=20
        > Tim Vigil? Blacker than the Black Co., more twisted than a=20
        > contortionist at a frat party.=20
       =20
        Nope - never read it, I'm just too lazy to type out my name ;-)=20
        M=20
       =20
       =20
Michele
[e-mail]

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C01B50.0E465D80
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 =
Transitional//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>

</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>
<P>I am not sure if you had intended for this mail to be a private mail =
or not=20
but I feel compelled to reply even though I am not Michelle. Hope =
neither of you=20
take too much offense.</P>
<P>I didn’t start with the BC. I started with the Swordbearer.=20
Cook’s ability to weave a spellbinding story and to leave a story=20
unfinished, making you want more, gripped me from the start. As soon as =
I=20
returned form my trip, I began my search for more of Cook’s books. =
I was=20
expecting to find a continuation of the Swordbearer, instead I found The =
Black=20
Company and I have loved them every since. I can think of many authors =
who I=20
have given up on after waiting just one or two years for their next book =
to come=20
out, yet in Cook’s case, after a six year wait, I was right there =
to pick=20
up Bleak Seasons. Every-time I move I clean out old books that are just=20
collecting dust, yet four moves later, I still have my incomplete Dread =
Empire=20
series. What is it about Cook that appeals to me so much? I am not =
sure.</P>
<P>What is it about the BC that appeals to me? I am sure it is many of =
the same=20
things that appeal to all the male readers out there. I like the BC =
because of=20
its gritting realism and attention to detail. In the fantasy realm, I =
think=20
Cook’s BC is one of the best portrayals of the mercenary life =
style. They=20
were not always the good guys. Some of the things they did in Beryl were =
pretty=20
cruel.</P>
<P>His writing style with Croaker is great too. Croaker is such a =
cynical=20
bastard, I love it. I think I was hooked from the first paragraph on;=20
"There were prodigies and portents enough, One-Eye say. We must =
blame=20
ourselves for misinterpreting them. One-eye’s handicap in no way =
impairs=20
his marvelous hindsight." BC pg. 7. I think that sums up the whole =
series=20
pretty well.</P>
<P>I was taken with the Taken from the start. The mystery and intrigue =
that=20
surrounds them alone was enough to keep me coming back. Cook wrote =
himself such=20
an interesting cast of ‘bad guys" to throw at the BC. And the =
fact=20
that they kept popping up even after everyone thought they were dead. I =
read She=20
is the Darkness in one setting just to get to the bottom of who =
Longshadow was,=20
as I just knew he was going to be one of the Taken (can’t be right =
all the=20
time).</P>
<P>In a nut shell, I like Cook’s writing because it is well done =
and tells=20
a good tale. Sure his stories don’t always deal with the nicest =
parts of=20
humanity, but hey the world we all live in isn’t always the nicest =
place=20
either.</P>
<P></FONT><FONT size=3D2>Amy</FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Joseph McGrath <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR>=
<B>To:=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
sion.com</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
sion.com</A>><BR><B>Cc:=20
    </B><A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> <<A=20
    href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Saturday, September 09, 2000 10:35 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re:=20
    (glencook-fans) Re: SL SPOILER (well, kinda)<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    Hi Michelle, =
it's Joseph=20
    McGrath, I hope you don't mind this e-mail. But i'm intrigued. about =
what=20
    you like from Cooks writing.... </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    Because the =
Company is so=20
    militaristic and has such large doses of psychological warfare going =
on all=20
    the time. This usually turns off many potential women readers, =
initialy..=20
    usually they don't get far enough before this happens to get to a =
more=20
    balancing out of the gender thing, which obviously happens. And =
really this=20
    has been a big selling point for me. Cook is so multi-faceted =
because he=20
    uses his internal dialogue as a narrative source. And you get =
to hear=20
    his petty prejudices that drive some of his decision making. Also he =
tries=20
    to relate from the standpoint of most of his characters to explain =
their=20
    behavior. I think it's interesting that he can give so many =
characters so=20
    many different motivations. And it seems the older he gets the =
better he=20
    gets at developing characters you like. He surprises you that way by =
alowing=20
    the reader to empathise with each character. On the other hand his=20
    demonstrations of manipulation should be part of the draw for women. =
It's=20
    just cloaked in such a menacing facade....</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    Well, I live on =
the north=20
    Shore of Boston    <A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A></FONT><=
/DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    Thanx for=20
    listening.</FONT></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
        <DIV=20
        style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
        <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" =
title=[e-mail]>Michele</A> </DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
        href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
        =
title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]=
</A>=20
        </DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, September =
10, 2000=20
        2:30 AM</DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
(glencook-fans) Re: SL=20
        SPOILER (well, kinda)</DIV>
        <DIV><BR></DIV>To reply to two birds with one message... =
<BR><BR>On 8=20
        Sep 00, at 12:38, Joseph McGrath wrote: <BR><BR>>Remember =
when=20
        Croaker said to her, "I love you and I'm glad the >fates =

        conspired to bring us together." <BR><BR><BR>and <BR>On 9 =
Sep 00,=20
        at 1:10, <A =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>=20
        wrote: <BR><?color><?param 0000,0000,7F00>> =
<BR><?color><?param 0000,0000,0000>>Listen Sweetie, ifana I wanna=20
        call some chick cupcake, or honey, >or muskmelon... <BR>> =
Just=20
        kidding.... <BR><BR><BR>Actually I have nothing against the word =

        "honey". It just seemed out of character for Croaker - =
as far=20
        as I can remember he tends to depreciate his endearments with =
ironic=20
        comments. Croaker's admission of love was more in keeping with =
what I=20
        "know" of him. <BR><BR><?color><?param =
0000,0000,7F00><BR>>=20
        p.s. I see you sign your email "M." Ever read the =
comic=20
        "Faust," by <BR>> Tim Vigil? Blacker than the Black =
Co.,=20
        more twisted than a <BR>> contortionist at a frat party. =
<BR><BR><?color><?param 0000,0000,0000>Nope - never read it, I'm just=20
        too lazy to type out my name ;-) <BR>M <BR><BR><PRE>Michele
[e-mail]

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
 To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
 visit =
<?http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/gc/gc-mail.html>.</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><=
/BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: [e-mail] (Steve Chew)
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Future Cons- was Re: Windwhales
Date: 10 Sep 2000 20:15:19 -0400 (EDT)

>
>I would be very happy to get a copy of OctoberÆs Baby.  I would be more than
>willing to pay shipping/handling/cost of book/whatever.
>
>I have OctoberÆs Baby on several wanted lists at used books stores in my
>home area.  This has been the case for the last eight or so years.
>

    OK, I'll check to see if he has it and pick one up if he does.

                Steve


--
Steve Chew - [e-mail] - http://www.interzone.com
"You keep using that word.  I don't think it means what you think it means."
                - Inigo Montoya

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From: Joshua G Peery <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 10 Sep 2000 20:22:32 -0400

Well looks like I get to be called "the Kid" ( kinda like Purple Rain) :-)

Male, 25 the end of this month,  Divorced, no kids. I was present at a
showing of Star Wars at a drive-In theater in Boise, Idaho, but being like
2 or 3 dont remember shit. Did see Jedi and remember it :-)
Have a new great woman(who is possesive of my person) in my life, I am an
Estimator for a large commercial contractor in Raleigh, NC, make 25K a
year, RP gamer since third grade, Cook reader for 10 years, bought a copy
of "Shadow Games" at a Wal-Mart (thought it was the first book 'cause it
said "First book of the South" :-)

I must say it is a pleasure to be among such esteemed company.

~Joshua

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From: Jay DeSimone <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Soldiers Live - Spoiler Type Message
Date: 10 Sep 2000 20:58:45 -0400

Welcome!

Interesting you say end.  We have been involved in a discussion about whether we
think the series is going to continue or end here.

Jay

Mike Wells wrote:

> Well.  I just finished Soldiers Live.  Great book I thought.  Loved it.
> Although I did get mad a few times. Ahh well...I guess it was time to end it
> eh?  Anyway...I'm new to the list, so be gentle.
>
> Mike


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jake Kesinger <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 10 Sep 2000 21:14:01 -0500 (CDT)

On Sat, 9 Sep 2000 [e-mail] wrote:

> So I am 30, male, single, make around $25,000, live in the midwest (US for
> those...),
> been reading Cook for two years, but I get the feeling that I am probably one
> of the
> oldest people on this list. While my sex insures that I am with the majority,
> I somehow
> get an impression few of those out there are employed fulltime or are as old
> as me
> (somehow I have no problem reconciling singleness with being a Cook reader).
> Anyway,
> just wondering how many others are in my demographic.
>
> christopher....
>
> p.s. if your weren't old enough to see Star Wars in the theater the first
> time you're
> not in the demographic.


What the heck...

27, single, male.  Not-nearly-gainfully-enough employed (about $18K/year)
as a math instructor/PhD. student in Lubbock, TX. Started Cook with the
Darkwar trilogy, but it was _Tower_of_Fear_ that got me hooked.

I was a bit too young to see SW the first time 'round, but was taken to
it in one of the second-run theaters a little later.  Or so I'm told.

  ==Jake


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From: "Caroline Helmeczi" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 10 Sep 2000 20:16:34 -0700

24 for a while more, female, married, one cat, looking for a job to pay the
rent while I start a business (chainmail costume-maker/freelance
bellydancer).
Annual income is miniscule, as my partner is a PhD student and it's all in
Canadian dollars!  The first book I read was Tower of Fear, followed by
Shadow Games--they were the only ones my hometown library had.  Shadow Games
was an interesting place to start--I'm sure other people can relate---"Who
are these Taken people?"

I saw Empire Strikes Back in the cinema.

Caroline


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From: Steve Harris <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Future Cons- was Re: Windwhales
Date: 10 Sep 2000 22:27:00 -0500

Michael,

If I make it to Archon (it's easy for me to get to, but there's always
the issue of other commitments--so no promises), I'll take note of what
books Glen Cook is stocked up on.

Steve

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From: Malik Coates <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 11 Sep 2000 00:46:11 -0700

Hmm,
   Single M/28/Silicon Valley CA, doing programming... too shy to say my
salary.  Saw Star wars multiple times at a theater in Baltimore where I
grew up.  I'm pretty sure my first Cook was "The Black Company",
followed by "The White Rose" both of which I picked up from a used book
store while I was in college.

    My favorite authors have included Dick, Cook, Brust, Niven, Wolfe, and
Zelazny.  Currently I think PKD stands head and shoulders above everyone
else I've read.  Frank Herbert's "Dune", however, gets credit for
leaving the strongest impact on me.
    I really haven't gotten the chance to help spread Cook's popularity
yet.  Hopefully I will get the chance sometime.

 I'm currently reading:  "Visual Intelligence" by Donald D. Hoffman, and
"The Bhagavad Gita".

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> So I am 30, male, single, make around $25,000, live in the midwest (US for
> those...),
> been reading Cook for two years, but I get the feeling that I am probably one
> of the
> oldest people on this list. While my sex insures that I am with the majority,
> I somehow
> get an impression few of those out there are employed fulltime or are as old
> as me
> (somehow I have no problem reconciling singleness with being a Cook reader).
> Anyway,
> just wondering how many others are in my demographic.
>
> christopher....
>
> p.s. if your weren't old enough to see Star Wars in the theater the first
> time you're
> not in the demographic.
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.

--
Right on! Right On! Shake your money maker!... Can we hit it and quit
it?
 ==James Brown.

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 11 Sep 2000 09:43:31 EDT

35 next month, married, started reading cook in 85, saw Star Wars in the theater over 30 times, computer industry, high 5 figures.

Win

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From: "Vonder Haar, Peter C." <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 11 Sep 2000 08:49:50 -0500

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Duncan [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Location - Texas

 Okay, that's something like the 5th person I've seen a response from who
lives in Texas.  Personally, I have double-citizenship: I live in Austin and
work in Houston.
 I'm 31, married, and was fortunate enough to have a mom willing to get me
out of school to see the first showing of Star Wars in my hometown.  I
started reading Cook a scant 4 years ago (a friend lent me The Black
Company).  It would've driven me nuts waiting for the next book if I'd
started in '83 when it first came out.

 Pete

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Nicholas J Thalasinos" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 11 Sep 2000 11:50:57 -0400

Male, 37, Seperated :(  I have 2 sons. Saw Star Wars in the theatre (15 or
16 times!)
Health Inspector Down here Cape May County, NJ.  AVID AD&D/D&D player. Enjoy
surfing on the 'Net (obviously).

I also hate statistics, since they are so easy to manipulate to support any
view or agenda :)


> So I am 30, male, single, make around $25,000, live in the midwest (US for
> those...),
> been reading Cook for two years, but I get the feeling that I am probably
> one
> of the
> oldest people on this list. While my sex insures that I am with the
> majority,
> I somehow
> get an impression few of those out there are employed fulltime or are as
old
> as me
> (somehow I have no problem reconciling singleness with being a Cook
reader).
> Anyway,
> just wondering how many others are in my demographic.
>
> christopher....
>
> p.s. if your weren't old enough to see Star Wars in the theater the first
> time you're
> not in the demographic.
>
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Eric Herrmann <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Biography Contest
Date: 11 Sep 2000 10:40:30 -0600

(I went out-of-town last week and let this slip a little. Sorry.)

I'll accept individual entries in "The Biography for the Albacon 2000
Program Book" contest till Midnight MST, September 14, 2000. I've already
received a couple.

For those who have forgotten:
Glen Cook is the Guest of Honor (GoH) at the science fiction & fantasy
convention Albacon 2000, <http://www.albacon.org>, to be held October 6-8,
2000 in Schenectady, NY.

This is your chance to pay tribute to your favorite author in a fairly
public way. Plus you can add it to your own bibliography.

Keep the biography to under 1000 words and feel free to use personal
anecdotes or things. (Examples of program book biographies can be found at
<http://www.mnstf.org/minicon/history/minicon30/glen-cook.html> and
<http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Biog.html>.)

The biography that gets used by Albacon wins a copy of "The Heirs of
Babylon".

Any comments or questions can be sent to me privately.

--
Eric Herrmann
<[e-mail]>



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From: "Acree, Patrick/CVO" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 11 Sep 2000 11:07:37 -0600

Male, 44, my birthday was yesterday, 21 years Marine Corps Infantry, now
lead computer tech at a engineering firm.  Living in Corvallis, OR,
Willamette rhymes with dammit.  I've been reading Cook for 5 or 6 years now.
I just reread the entire BC series prior to starting SL.  Working on my very
meager collection of DE books.
Patrick Acree
Corvallis, OR





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From: "Rob Crowther" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) New job and contact information
Date: 11 Sep 2000 10:37:22 -0700

> THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--MS_Mac_OE_3051513443_3855071_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

As most of you know, I am taking a position as a public and media relations
strategist at the Seattle PR firm of Parker LePla.  Friday, September 15
will be my last day at Discovery Institute.  The following contact
information will be in effect on Monday, Sept. 18.  E-mail to my old
Discovery account will be forwarded to me for a while, but please update
your address books as soon as possible.

Thanks,

Rob


Work contact information:

Rob Crowther
PR Strategist
Parker LePla
1601 Dexter Ave. N.
Seattle, WA 98109
[phone]
Fax [phone]
Email: [e-mail]
www.parkerlepla.com

Personal e-mail:
[e-mail]
--MS_Mac_OE_3051513443_3855071_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>New job and contact information</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#FFFFFF">
<TT>As most of you know, I am taking a position as a public and media relat=
ions strategist at the Seattle PR firm of Parker LePla.  Friday, Septem=
ber 15 will be my last day at Discovery Institute.  The following conta=
ct information will be in effect on Monday, Sept. 18.  E-mail to my old=
 Discovery account will be forwarded to me for a while, but please update yo=
ur address books as soon as possible.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Work contact information:<BR>
<BR>
Rob Crowther<BR>
PR Strategist<BR>
Parker LePla<BR>
1601 Dexter Ave. N.<BR>
Seattle, WA 98109<BR>
[phone]<BR>
Fax [phone]<BR>
Email: [e-mail]<BR>
www.parkerlepla.com<BR>
</TT><BR>
Personal e-mail:<BR>
[e-mail]
</BODY>
</HTML>

--MS_Mac_OE_3051513443_3855071_MIME_Part--


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From: Matthew Roche <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 11 Sep 2000 16:29:39 -0600

i never received the original demographics request, so here are the
questions i think *were* asked...

gender: male
age: 31
marital status: married with three cats. my wife is also an avid cook fan
but the cats don't care for him
occupation: software developer
location: new mexico
income: low six figures
reading cook: Since the mid 90s
first cook: 'the black company'
cook books read: everything but the last two glittering stone books, 'sung
in blood' and 'the swap academy.' i'm working my way through the black
company again so i can appreciate glittering stone fully
favorite cook: 'the dragon never sleeps'
least favorite cook: the last glittering stone i read, but i'm trying
again...
cook converts: three or four co-workers over the years
saw star wars in the theater: yes.

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From: Sam Roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 12 Sep 2000 10:59:12 -0700

I'm pretty sure I only counted 2 or 3 women that contributed to this thread
so I decided to chime in also.  Female, 28, computer tech support, and yes I
saw SW in the theater but I was really small and don't remember it much.  I
made up for that in later years by seeing it over an over again.  I
encountered the Black Company books somewhere around 92 and have also read
the Garrett books.  Strangely enough I read a Garrett book before I did
Black Company, hated it and never finished it, then went back to it after I
decided Cook was a good author and now I love them.  I stumbled on
speculative fiction late in life with Zelazny's Amber series (I was 17 or
so) and grew up reading any mysteries that I could get my hands on so the
Garrett books are a natural thing for me to love.

I lurk a lot on this list, responding only occasionally, but I must say I
really enjoy the intelligent discussions and general enthusiasm and respect
for the subject that everyone demonstrates.  As lists go, this one has had a
lot fewer problems than most and I think it's due to our conscientious list
owner and the quality of it's members.

Sam


-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2000 3:25 PM


Okay, so after reading this thread I have to say I was wrong. Guess I was
just in one of those "feeling old" moods. Sometimes I feel like I'm reading
books I should have given up in my later teens.

It was/is interesting to see people's replies though.

christopher....

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From: "Jesse L. Reynolds" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 12 Sep 2000 12:12:51 -0700


    Well, I am 30 as well, male, single, no pets, living in Southern California,
USA, software developer at a small game company.  I've been out here for just
over six years...
    I'm sorry to say that I only started seriously reading Cook about a year
ago.  Friends of mine back in the midwest (Ames, Iowa) had urged me to read him
about 10 years ago, and I picked up the first book and read it, but I didn't get
around to the full series until recently (too much to read, to much to do, and
had trouble finding the rest of the series :) ).  On the plus side, I was able to
read fairly non-stop for a while once I *did* start in on it again.  I've read
the entire Black Company series (just finished Soldiers Live), but nothing else
of his so far.  I've started scouring my local used bookstores, however, and have
picked up a few that are on my "To-Read" stack, including "Tower of Fear",
"Swordbearer" (?), and "Reap the East Wind" (though I realize that some of the
things I am finding may be mid-series  :( ).
    As with many on this list, I had trouble tracking what was going on when
Murgen took over as Annalist (what with jumping around so much), but I actually
enjoyed many of the books after it as much as the first ones.  I enjoyed the
changes and growth in the characters.  I re-read the first five books while
waiting for Soldiers Live, and then got too busy to read the latter until this
past weekend.
     I saw Star Wars at a theater in Topeka, Kansas, but only once when it first
came out (at least, that I can remember).  I saw it about 4 times after that when
it came through again in later years, most of those at drive-in theaters.  I
distinctly remember seeing a commercial for Star Wars on TV, and wondering what
in the world it was, especially the large furry creature.  ;)
    Speaking of drive-in theaters, I also remember seeing LaserBurn (LaserBlast?)
with Battle Beyond the Stars at around the same point in my life.  Boy, that
seems like a long time ago.
    When I think of how I could have been reading Cook years ago, I wonder what
else I am missing out on.  :)

        -Jesse R.


[e-mail] wrote:

> So I am 30, male, single, make around $25,000, live in the midwest (US for
> those...),
> been reading Cook for two years, but I get the feeling that I am probably one
> of the
> oldest people on this list. While my sex insures that I am with the majority,
> I somehow
> get an impression few of those out there are employed fulltime or are as old
> as me
> (somehow I have no problem reconciling singleness with being a Cook reader).
> Anyway,
> just wondering how many others are in my demographic.
>
> christopher....
>
> p.s. if your weren't old enough to see Star Wars in the theater the first
> time you're
> not in the demographic.
>
> =======================================================================
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From: Changeling <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 12 Sep 2000 14:17:59 -0500 (CDT)

Male, 27, Computer technician in Boston MA.

I first encountered Glen in the form of the Black Company when my roomate
skipped out of town in the middle of the night and left the majority of
his stuff behind. (Including his car, his CD collection, his gaming books,
his comic books (including a full run of the Sandman series), and most of
his books.)
I read the Black Company and then found out that I'd been talking to Glen
for a couple years at ICon in Iowa City.
Imagine my shock...

-Changeling


**************************************************************************
* "If hostility to men causes Lesbianism, then it seems to me that in a  *
*  male-dominated society, Lesbianism is a sign of mental health."       *
*                             -- Martha Shelley, Notes of a              *
*                                Radical Lesbian (1969)                  *
**************************************************************************


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From: "Timothy P. Taylor" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 12 Sep 2000 15:27:37 -0400

37, Male, Married with 2 children, 2 cats and 5 goldfish.  Work in the
Hi-Tech industry (currently doing QA) Live in Massachusetts just outside of
Boston.  born in Plymouth,MA was living on Cape cod when star Wars hit the
theatres...Saw it about 6 times in the original release including twice in
the drive-in.  Started Reading Cook in 1984 while in the service, I read BC
and then spent two years trying to find the others...which occured in
WorldCon Atlanta, 1986.  While rummaging through the dealers room I remarked
to a friend of mine it seemed to be taking Cook an awfully long time to
finish the sequels, whereby Glen Cook himself reached over the counter with
Shadows Linger and the White Rose.  (Yes, I had Mr. cook sign them, yes I
still have them, nope, not for sale)

    On a side note, I was extremely fortunete to be at World Science Fiction
convention in Anaheim, CA in 1984 when for the VERY FIRST TIME all three of
the star wars movies were shown back to back to back.

Woo-Hoo.

Timothy Taylor



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From: Eric Herrmann <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) The Dragon Never Sleeps (spoilers)
Date: 12 Sep 2000 13:40:18 -0600

on 9/9/00 6:00 PM, Tyler Fain at [e-mail] wrote:

> I finished this novel a few days ago and was just wondering why some of you
> felt it was Cook's best book? I certainly enjoyed it, but to me the ending was
> a bit of a letdown. One of my favorite scenes was the first big battle between
> Simon's powerful ship and the three Guardships. And it seemed like there
> always something going around somebody else's back throughout the novel. There
> were many interesting characters such as Jo Klass, Simon Provik, and Kez
> Maefele as well. I'm not a big SF fan only read some Bradbury and Dune. Bought
> it off abebooks.com for $12.

What ending did you want? The bad guys lost and _all_ the good guys won and
lived to fight another day.

Why do I think Dragon is his best book?

Dragon is a masterpiece of brevity and density. There isn't a wasted or
extra word in the entire 422 pages. Glen spent 7 years crafting this book
and it shows.

I've read Dragon more times than Black Company. Each time I find new meaning
and understanding to passages and phrases. Glen doesn't spell it out in a
long meandering narrative of detail. There is enough story in here for 5
books and I think a very good movie.

(I believe Steve Harris tried to start a thread on cleverness of
characters.)

Dragon is full of clever characters. Most are too clever for their own good
and usually find the limit to their cleverness. It seems every character has
a secret that gives them power, the source of their cleverness, and each
character has a weakness.

I liked how the characters interacted with each other. Yes they were a bunch
of back-stabbing theives that even the Taken would be jealous of. But unlike
the Taken, they each were fleshed out with personality and motivation.

It doesn't get any better than this.

--
Eric Herrmann
<[e-mail]>






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From: Aaron Contreras <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 12 Sep 2000 12:42:26 -0700


Name: Aaron Contreras
Age: 23 - which means I saw Star Wars in the theatre both inside and outside
of the womb -
Employment: I work for a game company in Seattle, WA as a QA Tester.

Cook: Been reading him only for the past two or three years.  A friend of
mine who knew I liked dark fantasy recommended the Black Company and gave me
the first in the series.  A week later I had read all the way up to She Is
The Darkness, I believe.  My favorites are the first (of course), She is the
Darkness and whichever book has Murgen in Dejagore (Bleak Seasons?).  Read
them all so fast they are blurred together in my head.

Cook fascinates me for many of the same reasons Zelazny does...he is a good
writer with absolutely amazing ideas who makes (in my opinion) huge mistakes
with his plots...the most obvious example being whacking most of the Taken
in the first book, as well as most of Soldier's Live, IMHO.  It is this
sense of, "If he'd only...!" mixed with the unpredictable swerves and very
realistic fortunes (good and ill) that really make Cook's work memorable for
me.

Regards,

Aaron Contreras


[e-mail] wrote:

> So I am 30, male, single, make around $25,000, live in the midwest (US for
> those...),
> been reading Cook for two years, but I get the feeling that I am probably
one
> of the
> oldest people on this list. While my sex insures that I am with the
majority,
> I somehow
> get an impression few of those out there are employed fulltime or are as
old
> as me
> (somehow I have no problem reconciling singleness with being a Cook
reader).
> Anyway,
> just wondering how many others are in my demographic.
>
> christopher....
>
> p.s. if your weren't old enough to see Star Wars in the theater the first
> time you're
> not in the demographic.
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) The Dragon Never Sleeps (spoilers)
Date: 12 Sep 2000 18:50:32 EDT


In a message dated 9/12/00 2:40:53 PM, [e-mail] writes:

>Dragon is a masterpiece of brevity and density. There isn't a wasted or
>extra word in the entire 422 pages. Glen spent 7 years crafting this book
>and it shows.

This is the next Cook book I am reading. We still thinking of doing a "book
club?" We seem to have somewhat closed the SL threads. Do enough others
have this book and have a desire to read or reread it?

I'm sitting in the enviable position of having dozen of good books in my too
read stack, so I can hold off for awhile.

christopher....


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 12 Sep 2000 18:50:30 EDT


In a message dated 9/12/00 2:12:04 PM, [e-mail] writes:

>  I'm sorry to say that I only started seriously reading Cook about a year
>ago.  Friends of mine back in the midwest (Ames, Iowa)

So I work in Ames. :)

Live in Slater.

christopher....


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From: Eric Herrmann <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) The Dragon Never Sleeps (spoilers)
Date: 12 Sep 2000 17:10:26 -0600

on 9/12/00 4:50 PM, [e-mail] at [e-mail] wrote:

> This is the next Cook book I am reading. We still thinking of doing a "book
> club?" We seem to have somewhat closed the SL threads. Do enough others
> have this book and have a desire to read or reread it?

Yes, I've still been thinking of doing the "book club". However I'd been
thinking that the first book would be the first book, "The Heirs of
Babylon". But it's not set in stone.

Dragon is a book worth rereading anyway.

How long do we need to give people to obtain and read it?

Can we start discussion October 1? That gives about 3 weeks.

--
Eric Herrmann
<[e-mail]>


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From: "David George" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) The Dragon Never Sleeps (spoilers)
Date: 12 Sep 2000 18:44:30 -0500

Just reread it myself, before SL arrived, so Oct. 1 is plenty of time for
me.  Is this book hard to find?  I saw plenty around when it was in print
but I have not seen another since.  Shame, too, because mine is a bit
dogeared.  I figure the average paperback is good for about 10 reads if well
cared for, gradually decreasing over time as the paper and glue get brittle.
That means my copy has about 2 or 3 reads left.  boohoo.


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 6:10 PM


> on 9/12/00 4:50 PM, [e-mail] at [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > This is the next Cook book I am reading. We still thinking of doing a
"book
> > club?" We seem to have somewhat closed the SL threads. Do enough others
> > have this book and have a desire to read or reread it?
>
> Yes, I've still been thinking of doing the "book club". However I'd been
> thinking that the first book would be the first book, "The Heirs of
> Babylon". But it's not set in stone.
>
> Dragon is a book worth rereading anyway.
>
> How long do we need to give people to obtain and read it?
>
> Can we start discussion October 1? That gives about 3 weeks.
>
> --
> Eric Herrmann
> <[e-mail]>
>
>
> =======================================================================
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From: "Amy Weathers" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) The Dragon Never Sleeps (spoilers)
Date: 11 Sep 2000 09:06:02 -0600

Never read it and it isn't at any of the used book store in my area.  I
added it to my hold list though.

Maybe I should look on-line -peer-

Amy

>


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From: Craig Dutton <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 12 Sep 2000 17:23:35 -0700 (PDT)

Male, 30, Library technician.

First read Glen Cook around 1986, which would have been either Annals of the
Black Company (the 3-in-1 book club edition) or Shadowline, both courtesy of my
local library.

I have about one and a half converts... Mirko (who I've seen is here) is the
full; the half is someone who got hooked between myself and a group of
friends/associates that had a paintball team with a BC motif, complete with
Soulcatcher-style unit patch.  They got him hooked to BC, I hooked him on the
Dread Empire.






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From: "S. Townsend" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) The Dragon Never Sleeps (spoilers)
Date: 12 Sep 2000 20:34:06 -0500

I've read it four times now, twice in the first week of it's publication.  I
learn some new reason to love it each time.  I'll reread it again for a good
cause...



Eric Herrmann wrote:

> on 9/12/00 4:50 PM, [e-mail] at [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > This is the next Cook book I am reading. We still thinking of doing a "book
> > club?" We seem to have somewhat closed the SL threads. Do enough others
> > have this book and have a desire to read or reread it?
>
> Yes, I've still been thinking of doing the "book club". However I'd been
> thinking that the first book would be the first book, "The Heirs of
> Babylon". But it's not set in stone.
>
> Dragon is a book worth rereading anyway.
>
> How long do we need to give people to obtain and read it?
>
> Can we start discussion October 1? That gives about 3 weeks.
>
> --
> Eric Herrmann
> <[e-mail]>
>
> =======================================================================
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>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.


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From: "Rohrer, Mike" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 13 Sep 2000 08:35:00 -0400

Male, 28, working as NT Admin at Compaq Computer Inc.  Currently living in
Ohio (not recommended), but was born in Wisconsin and went to college at
University of Minnesota in Minneapolis where I studied Aerospace
Engineering.  My brother tried getting me to read the Black Company series
about 10 years ago, but only started reading Cook this past January.  Took
me a little while to get used to Cook's writing style (about 1/4 of the way
through Black Company), but once I did I was seriously hooked. Finished the
whole series by the end of April and had to wait an agonizing 4 months for
Soldiers Live.  Haven't read any of the Dread Empire books, but will
probably start looking for them soon enough.  And I did see Star Wars in the
theater when it first came out, and actually remember it.

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 1:11 AM


So I am 30, male, single, make around $25,000, live in the midwest (US for
those...),
been reading Cook for two years, but I get the feeling that I am probably
one
of the
oldest people on this list. While my sex insures that I am with the
majority,
I somehow
get an impression few of those out there are employed fulltime or are as old

as me
(somehow I have no problem reconciling singleness with being a Cook reader).

Anyway,
just wondering how many others are in my demographic.

christopher....

p.s. if your weren't old enough to see Star Wars in the theater the first
time you're
not in the demographic.

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From: Heather Kegg <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 13 Sep 2000 05:59:31 -0700 (PDT)

Heather Kegg, female, 25
Research Tech in Biotechnology at Battelle Memorial
Institute in Columbus Ohio (I agree with Mike and
don't recommend living in Ohio!)
I started reading Cook - Black Company Books in 1993
after playing in a D&D game based on the books. Been
hooked ever since.



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From: "Mike Ehlers" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 13 Sep 2000 08:35:38 -0500



Mike Ehlers, male, 28
Software Development in Chicago, IL
Married, 2 cats
Started reading the BC about 2 years ago.  Took me 2 months to finish the first
book, 2 weeks to finish the rest.

Mike





Please respond to [e-mail]

cc:
Client:



Heather Kegg, female, 25
Research Tech in Biotechnology at Battelle Memorial
Institute in Columbus Ohio (I agree with Mike and
don't recommend living in Ohio!)
I started reading Cook - Black Company Books in 1993
after playing in a D&D game based on the books. Been
hooked ever since.



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From: Igor Filippov <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 13 Sep 2000 14:24:06 -0400 (EDT)

Male, 25, Columbus, Ohio (yet again :) )

Soldiers Live did not give me the impression of the "end of it all".
It's much more like Cook is leaving the door open - to continue the series
(and I do hope he will !!!)

Maybe somebody who'll talk to him in the nearest future could ask directly
whether he's going to go on ?

On the side note - I've read "Dune" and I think it's rather lame.
"I shall rule with an eagle claw" - in some VERY cheap novels
people TALK like that, but in Dune the old duke actually THINKS like that
and I believe this is hilarious.

Goblin would make that guy pump  smoke out of his ears :)

Igor

On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Heather Kegg wrote:

> Heather Kegg, female, 25
> Research Tech in Biotechnology at Battelle Memorial
> Institute in Columbus Ohio (I agree with Mike and
> don't recommend living in Ohio!)
> I started reading Cook - Black Company Books in 1993
> after playing in a D&D game based on the books. Been
> hooked ever since.
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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> Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
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>
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 13 Sep 2000 15:02:31 EDT

In a message dated 9/13/00 11:29:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [e-mail]
writes:

<< Male, 25, Columbus, Ohio (yet again :) )  >>

You know, I just have three words to say to everyone complaining about
Columbus, OH :   The Book Loft!   :)

Donna, who visits Columbus fairly often (as her fiance is "ABD" at OSU) and
kinda likes it...though much prefers living in Los Angeles.  ;]

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From: Craig Dutton <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Dread Empire question
Date: 13 Sep 2000 12:28:23 -0700 (PDT)

Speaking of questions to ask Glen at Albacon...

Is there any plans/thoughts about re-releasing the Dread Empire books as a
3-in-1 omnibus paperback edition [as has been done for works by Bujold &
Cherryh, amongst others], to try and build (publisher) interest for further DE
books?  The apparently high online demand for those titles could help convince
a publisher.  And a bonus inclusion of some of the short fiction might create
sales amongst people who already have the novels [or alternately, the bulk of
the short fiction could be included with the prequels in a second omnibus].

Just a thought.

Craig

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From: "Mike Ehlers" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Dread Empire question
Date: 13 Sep 2000 14:34:35 -0500



Considering how much some of the used editions of the DE are going for -- I'm
amazed that some publisher hasn't re-released these books.  it would seem like a
quick way to make a buck for the publisher and for GC.

Mike





Please respond to [e-mail]

cc:
Client:



Speaking of questions to ask Glen at Albacon...

Is there any plans/thoughts about re-releasing the Dread Empire books as a
3-in-1 omnibus paperback edition [as has been done for works by Bujold &
Cherryh, amongst others], to try and build (publisher) interest for further DE
books?  The apparently high online demand for those titles could help convince
a publisher.  And a bonus inclusion of some of the short fiction might create
sales amongst people who already have the novels [or alternately, the bulk of
the short fiction could be included with the prequels in a second omnibus].

Just a thought.

Craig

__________________________________________________
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From: Steve Harris <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) cleverness
Date: 13 Sep 2000 15:06:34 -0500

Heather,

Your mention of a D&D game based on the Black Company reminds me of the
thread I started earlier (that Eric referred to yesterday): cleverness
in the BC books.

I think that's one of the draws of the Black Company--the reliance on
small bits of magic and (usually) relatively small-sized forces with
large amounts of cleverness and deception to leverage their small forces
to a much larger impact than their adversaries anticipate.  As I said
before, I think this is because we, as readers, can feel this is
something we could do ourselves--we can't use magic or command large
forces, but we *can* be clever (or even devious, if we wish) in the
employment of what forces we do marshall.

(This still leaves unaddressed the question, is the Black Company
*really* clever, or do we just enjoy Cook telling us that it is?  And
what does it mean, anyway, for a fictional character "really" to be clever?)

I was thinking, when I wrote on this idea origionally, of cleverness in
"real life" situations, though possibly including adversarial contexts.
But probably a lot of us enjoy fantasy simulations of the D&D variety;
and in my years of gaming, I recall cleverness being one of the most
exciting strategies to employ, much more enjoyable than hack-and-slash.

Does this strike a resonance with what draws you to Cook's writing?

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From: Matthew Roche <[e-mail]>
Subject:  (glencook-fans) A Different but Related Dread Empire question
Date: 13 Sep 2000 14:16:18 -0600

hey everyone, here's another dread empire question. i've been thinking of
this for a while, but never got around to suggesting it, thinking that it
would be dead in the water. the responses to the demographic survey over the
past few days have made me rethink.

so here goes...

why don't we (we being the body of persons who are active on this list)
commission glen cook to finish the dread empire sequels?

but wait, you say, cook has said that he won't write any more... i remember
seeing a posting from many months ago that he actually was refusing to write
any more books that he wasn't getting paid for, and that his publishers
weren't interested in any more dread empire books, but that they would pay
$40K for any black company or garret book and $15 for any other. i hope i'm
remembering this correctly...

so, why did the demographic survey make me ask this question? most of the
responses that i read (including my own) had "software developer" or "IT" or
some similar high-tech field in the job section. most high-tech jobs these
days pay very well...

so here's my question: does anyone else on the list (i asked my wife first
before i stepped out on the limb here) want to read these novels well enough
to commission glen cook to write them? it is possible that for $15K (yes,
that is a *lot* of money, but divide it by 30 or 45 people and it seems like
a lot less) we could be able to convince him to write the final book (or
books?) and maybe such an action would have a positive impact on cook's
overall success, such as convincing his publisher that an omnibus edition of
the existing dread empire books would be worthwhile.

if you are interested (please notice that i have not mentioned or even
considered any of the logistics involved... i'm just a programmer after all
;-] ) please reply to the list. i know that someone (i'm sorry, but i can't
remember who it was) is going to make up a list of questions to ask mr. cook
at an upcoming convention, and i think that this has the potential to be the
most exciting question of all "will you accept a commission from your fans
to write the remaining dread empire books, and what would it take?"

even if you are not interested, please share your thoughts...

(fingers crossed)

matthew

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From: Jay DeSimone <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 13 Sep 2000 17:59:12 -0400

Male, 26, Copy Editor/Proofreader in Wilmington, DE.

First read BC in 1994...Purely randomly.  I didn't like reading single novels...I
was into series, and there were several books in this series, so I took a stab.
Haven't looked back since, but have often looked forward to the next release.  I
spent several years looking for the next book "Glittering Stone." I had up
to/including Dreams of Steel, which says "to becontinued in Glittering Stone."  I
took that as the title.  I went to bookstores, looking for copies of this book,
asked if it was available, and never found anything.  I began to wonder if
perhaps the author died, leaving the series unfinished.  Then, one day, I did an
author search on amazon.com, and found not only Bleak Seasons, but also She is
the Darkness.  I started the series over from the beginning, figuring I had time
to re-read what I had by the time the new books came.  Unfortunately, the new
books came before I was finished, but managed to finish re-reading before picking
up BS.  Of course, I then realized what "Glittering Stone" meant at the end of
DoS, and naturally, copies of both books began surfacing in EVERY bookstore I
went into.  I had never seen either book at a bookstore until after I ordered
them...and I checked every time I went into a bookstore...a frequent happening
for me.

So that's my story.  Hope I didn't bore you all.

Jay



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From: "Jordan Raney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 13 Sep 2000 18:11:14 -0500

Well, since everyone else is doing this I guess I will too.

I'm an 18 year old male from Minnesota.  I'm a first year student here at
the U of M Twin Cities with a major of "undecided"....  Since I'm a college
student I make hardly any money and don't maintain a full time job, mainly
just living off the loans.  I didn't see Star Wars in the theater, because
obviously I am too young, but I don't really feel deprived because I find it
horrid anyway.  I don't fit "cookreader's" idea of a good Cook reader, but
then again I don't give a damn.

JR


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From: Jay DeSimone <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 13 Sep 2000 19:23:21 -0400



Jordan Raney wrote:

>   I didn't see Star Wars in the theater, because
> obviously I am too young, but I don't really feel deprived because I find it
> horrid anyway.

Horrid?  Horrid?  Begone, Heathen!

Kidding.


Jay


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 13 Sep 2000 19:28:12 EDT


In a message dated 9/13/00 6:14:10 PM, [e-mail] writes:

>I don't fit "cookreader's" idea of a good Cook reader, but
>then again I don't give a damn.

I have no real idea of what a "good Cook reader" should be, and the
line about Star Wars was an afterthought, a throw-away line, not
something meant to define the demographic of a typical Cook reader,
but rather what I viewed MY demographic as. No judgements were
intended.

Actually, you're a perfect example of what I felt the typical Cook
reader was. Glad to see I was wrong, since I was starting to feel
too old to be reading these (again, and again, and...).

I think this thread has allowed us to introduce ourselves. So it has
served a good purpose (and while marked OT has been pretty on
topic).

I have to be diplomatic all day long, so forgive me if I occasionally get
blunt. I figure as long as I don't get more offensive than Cook I'm in
safe waters.

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From: "Jordan Raney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 13 Sep 2000 18:44:38 -0500


> I have to be diplomatic all day long, so forgive me if I occasionally get
> blunt. I figure as long as I don't get more offensive than Cook I'm in
> safe waters.
>

Ya, sorry I was a little harsh too.  I shouldn't ever respond too e-mail
after a rough day, because it always comes out from my bad side.


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From: "Pardoz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Windwhales
Date: 13 Sep 2000 11:57:16 -0400

On Sat, 09 Sep 2000 18:32:37 -0600, Eric Herrmann wrote:

>> I just thought it was pretty kewl. Are there any other creatures, items that
>> cross series like that in Cook's writings?
>
>Not that I'm aware of.

    One name crosses over - Boroba Thring.  Shows up in the Dread
Empire, _The Heirs of Babylon_, and, I b'lieve, somewhere else too.


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From: David Miller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) A Different but Related Dread Empire question
Date: 13 Sep 2000 20:23:32 -0400

Personally I'd be happy to pay $500 towards a new Dread Empire novel.

Obviously paying Cook is a small part of the overall cost of a printed
book, not to mention the editing -- not that I really know how much his
books change after he first sends them off to the editor.

I assume in this case the book would be published electronically so the
main question I have is how much Cook likes & benefits from being
edited... Not to mention whether he's allowed to write books on his own
(I'm not too familiar with book contracts).

--
Dave


Matthew Roche wrote:
>
>
> so here's my question: does anyone else on the list (i asked my wife first
> before i stepped out on the limb here) want to read these novels well enough
> to commission glen cook to write them? it is possible that for $15K (yes,
> that is a *lot* of money, but divide it by 30 or 45 people and it seems like
> a lot less) we could be able to convince him to write the final book (or
> books?) and maybe such an action would have a positive impact on cook's
> overall success, such as convincing his publisher that an omnibus edition of
> the existing dread empire books would be worthwhile.
>

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From: "Amy Weathers" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) A Different but Related Dread Empire question
Date: 11 Sep 2000 15:26:03 -0600

I am a poor as beans State Gonvernment Empolyee, however,  I'd be happy to
provide you all with all the moral support you may need in this project.
;)

Amy (very helpful)




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From: "Andrew Skowronski" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 13 Sep 2000 20:31:24 -0400

This is a really fascinating topic.
If you think about it, part of the reason
we are on this list is because we're
curious about who else likes these
books.

I think the 25+, mostly 30+ age
response makes sense because Black Company
series started way way back and it
would be pretty hard for a casual young
reader to find them all (or pay for them all...)

Anyway, enough analysis, I'll add to the
statistics, I'm ...er... 27 or so, starting
to lose track.  Computer Programmer in Canada,
Salary is in Canadian bucks so its not that
great.  Read BC when I was about twelve, still
my favorite book.  My Wife
has read them enthusiastically too, so
there is definitely a female demographic.




-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Nicholas J
Thalasinos
Sent: September 11, 2000 11:51 AM


Male, 37, Seperated :(  I have 2 sons. Saw Star Wars in the theatre (15 or
16 times!)
Health Inspector Down here Cape May County, NJ.  AVID AD&D/D&D player. Enjoy
surfing on the 'Net (obviously).

I also hate statistics, since they are so easy to manipulate to support any
view or agenda :)


> So I am 30, male, single, make around $25,000, live in the midwest (US for
> those...),
> been reading Cook for two years, but I get the feeling that I am probably
> one
> of the
> oldest people on this list. While my sex insures that I am with the
> majority,
> I somehow
> get an impression few of those out there are employed fulltime or are as
old
> as me
> (somehow I have no problem reconciling singleness with being a Cook
reader).
> Anyway,
> just wondering how many others are in my demographic.
>
> christopher....
>
> p.s. if your weren't old enough to see Star Wars in the theater the first
> time you're
> not in the demographic.
>
>


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From: Eric Herrmann <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Windwhales
Date: 13 Sep 2000 18:47:49 -0600

on 9/13/00 9:57 AM, Pardoz at [e-mail] wrote:

> On Sat, 09 Sep 2000 18:32:37 -0600, Eric Herrmann wrote:
>
>>> I just thought it was pretty kewl. Are there any other creatures, items that
>>> cross series like that in Cook's writings?
>>
>> Not that I'm aware of.
>
> One name crosses over - Boroba Thring.  Shows up in the Dread
> Empire, _The Heirs of Babylon_, and, I b'lieve, somewhere else too.

One other name shows up a lot, but not as a character, Torquemada.

--
Eric Herrmann
<[e-mail]>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) A Different but Related Dread Empire question
Date: 13 Sep 2000 21:25:41 EDT


In a message dated 9/13/00 3:11:03 PM, [e-mail] writes:

>why don't we (we being the body of persons who are active on this list)
>commission glen cook to finish the dread empire sequels?

Let me step up to bash the idea. As far as I know, no one on this list is
a professional publisher, so basically you're asking Cook to trust a bunch
of amateurs that have no qualifications other than that they are fans
of his.

If writing a DE book were economically feasible those with the highly paid
number crunchers would be doing it.

If I were Cook and offered a choice between a contract with Tor or
a handful of cash to write another book in a failed series...well, the
choice isn't hard. No way in hell you'd get me to write a NEW book.

I can take a lot more time to tear down the idea if you really like,
with arguments such as "where would the incentive be to write a
book that would have no promotions, no publisher with a track record,
or no chance at making the bestseller lists," or "why would Cook be
the first writer to do this in hundreds of years (you're proposing
the old system of patronage)," or "How much money do you think
you could get?" But rather than flesh them out I'll leave you to do
so. And don't get me started on electronic publishing.

This said....

My guess is that you will see new DE books. Cook now has the level of
popularity where he would start seeing some reissues. I could see NEFSA
picking up the earlier books (or mishla-merlin [sp? can't remember the
spelling] or Tor. I'm guessing that some time in the new ten years you
will see an Omnibus or a trade reissue.

If these book were re-released and did well Cook will write more. Glen
is now making it into hard cover. This means Tor is seeing the sales
to make this viable.

I'd write Tor, expressing interest, or better write Cook c/o Tor. He could
then take this box of letters in when it came time to negotiate a new
contract (to whatever publisher he feels would most likely do it).

christopher....


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From: "Richard Gruver" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Re: (demographics)
Date: 13 Sep 2000 22:51:01 -0500

AAARRRHHHG!!! Come on there has to be some old fart out there older than me.
Unless I missed it I'm the oldest member of the group (at least the oldest
to respond). Come on, someone out there lie about your age and make feel
less like the old Fogey than I am probably becoming. My wife says the cover
of She Is The Darkness looks like me and Michael Jackson so maybe I'm about
ready to get nailed to the throne.
  Richard
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 8:25 PM


>
> In a message dated 9/13/00 3:11:03 PM, [e-mail] writes:
>
> >why don't we (we being the body of persons who are active on this list)
> >commission glen cook to finish the dread empire sequels?
>
> Let me step up to bash the idea. As far as I know, no one on this list is
> a professional publisher, so basically you're asking Cook to trust a bunch
> of amateurs that have no qualifications other than that they are fans
> of his.
>
> If writing a DE book were economically feasible those with the highly paid
> number crunchers would be doing it.
>
> If I were Cook and offered a choice between a contract with Tor or
> a handful of cash to write another book in a failed series...well, the
> choice isn't hard. No way in hell you'd get me to write a NEW book.
>
> I can take a lot more time to tear down the idea if you really like,
> with arguments such as "where would the incentive be to write a
> book that would have no promotions, no publisher with a track record,
> or no chance at making the bestseller lists," or "why would Cook be
> the first writer to do this in hundreds of years (you're proposing
> the old system of patronage)," or "How much money do you think
> you could get?" But rather than flesh them out I'll leave you to do
> so. And don't get me started on electronic publishing.
>
> This said....
>
> My guess is that you will see new DE books. Cook now has the level of
> popularity where he would start seeing some reissues. I could see NEFSA
> picking up the earlier books (or mishla-merlin [sp? can't remember the
> spelling] or Tor. I'm guessing that some time in the new ten years you
> will see an Omnibus or a trade reissue.
>
> If these book were re-released and did well Cook will write more. Glen
> is now making it into hard cover. This means Tor is seeing the sales
> to make this viable.
>
> I'd write Tor, expressing interest, or better write Cook c/o Tor. He could
> then take this box of letters in when it came time to negotiate a new
> contract (to whatever publisher he feels would most likely do it).
>
> christopher....
>
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Duncan <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: (demographics)
Date: 13 Sep 2000 23:01:30 -0500

Well Richard I am 42, does that help?
Tom

Richard Gruver wrote:

> AAARRRHHHG!!! Come on there has to be some old fart out there older than me.
> Unless I missed it I'm the oldest member of the group (at least the oldest
> to respond). Come on, someone out there lie about your age and make feel
> less like the old Fogey than I am probably becoming. My wife says the cover
> of She Is The Darkness looks like me and Michael Jackson so maybe I'm about
> ready to get nailed to the throne.
>   Richard
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 8:25 PM
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) A Different but Related Dread Empire question
>
> >
> > In a message dated 9/13/00 3:11:03 PM, [e-mail] writes:
> >
> > >why don't we (we being the body of persons who are active on this list)
> > >commission glen cook to finish the dread empire sequels?
> >
> > Let me step up to bash the idea. As far as I know, no one on this list is
> > a professional publisher, so basically you're asking Cook to trust a bunch
> > of amateurs that have no qualifications other than that they are fans
> > of his.
> >
> > If writing a DE book were economically feasible those with the highly paid
> > number crunchers would be doing it.
> >
> > If I were Cook and offered a choice between a contract with Tor or
> > a handful of cash to write another book in a failed series...well, the
> > choice isn't hard. No way in hell you'd get me to write a NEW book.
> >
> > I can take a lot more time to tear down the idea if you really like,
> > with arguments such as "where would the incentive be to write a
> > book that would have no promotions, no publisher with a track record,
> > or no chance at making the bestseller lists," or "why would Cook be
> > the first writer to do this in hundreds of years (you're proposing
> > the old system of patronage)," or "How much money do you think
> > you could get?" But rather than flesh them out I'll leave you to do
> > so. And don't get me started on electronic publishing.
> >
> > This said....
> >
> > My guess is that you will see new DE books. Cook now has the level of
> > popularity where he would start seeing some reissues. I could see NEFSA
> > picking up the earlier books (or mishla-merlin [sp? can't remember the
> > spelling] or Tor. I'm guessing that some time in the new ten years you
> > will see an Omnibus or a trade reissue.
> >
> > If these book were re-released and did well Cook will write more. Glen
> > is now making it into hard cover. This means Tor is seeing the sales
> > to make this viable.
> >
> > I'd write Tor, expressing interest, or better write Cook c/o Tor. He could
> > then take this box of letters in when it came time to negotiate a new
> > contract (to whatever publisher he feels would most likely do it).
> >
> > christopher....
> >
> >
> > =======================================================================
> >  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> >  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> >
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.

--
Tom Duncan
[e-mail]
ITSC1313.001



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From: Steve Harris <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: (demographics)
Date: 13 Sep 2000 23:32:09 -0500

Richard,

Hmm, did I miss something?  I thought I was the oldest reporting in thus
far, at 49.

Steve

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From: "Scott Vandenberg" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Future Cons- was Re: Windwhales
Date: 14 Sep 2000 01:44:50 -0400

you probably have tried already, but, just in case... try ebay or
www.abebooks.com  I had great success at getting all of GC's books.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 1:26 AM


> I would be very happy to get a copy of October's Baby.  I would be more
than
> willing to pay shipping/handling/cost of book/whatever.
>
> I have October's Baby on several wanted lists at used books stores in my
> home area.  This has been the case for the last eight or so years.
>
> Amy
>
>
> -
>
>
> =======================================================================
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>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>


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From: "Scott Vandenberg" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: (demographics)
Date: 14 Sep 2000 02:05:17 -0400

Well I am 82.... no wait I'm just 28 and dyslexsic(sp).
I am from Deer Park, NY and presently live in Tallahassee, FL  with my wife
and daughter.  I am an Audio Engineer at a theatre at Florida State
University.  I first read GC's Black Company in 1990. I was introduced to it
by my best friend in college.  He is now my brother-in-law ( married my
sister).  I can't thank him enough (for the GC recomendation, not marring my
sister).  I have introduced GC to my wife and she loves BC books as much as
I do.  Another friend said," I have this great book you should read,  The
Dragon Never Sleeps by Glen Cook."  That day he handed me that and I handed
him BC  and now we both have read all of GC stuff( I am reading Darkwar
trilogy now).

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 11:51 PM


> AAARRRHHHG!!! Come on there has to be some old fart out there older than
me.
> Unless I missed it I'm the oldest member of the group (at least the oldest
> to respond). Come on, someone out there lie about your age and make feel
> less like the old Fogey than I am probably becoming. My wife says the
cover
> of She Is The Darkness looks like me and Michael Jackson so maybe I'm
about
> ready to get nailed to the throne.
>   Richard
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 8:25 PM
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) A Different but Related Dread Empire question
>
>
> >
> > In a message dated 9/13/00 3:11:03 PM, [e-mail] writes:
> >
> > >why don't we (we being the body of persons who are active on this list)
> > >commission glen cook to finish the dread empire sequels?
> >
> > Let me step up to bash the idea. As far as I know, no one on this list
is
> > a professional publisher, so basically you're asking Cook to trust a
bunch
> > of amateurs that have no qualifications other than that they are fans
> > of his.
> >
> > If writing a DE book were economically feasible those with the highly
paid
> > number crunchers would be doing it.
> >
> > If I were Cook and offered a choice between a contract with Tor or
> > a handful of cash to write another book in a failed series...well, the
> > choice isn't hard. No way in hell you'd get me to write a NEW book.
> >
> > I can take a lot more time to tear down the idea if you really like,
> > with arguments such as "where would the incentive be to write a
> > book that would have no promotions, no publisher with a track record,
> > or no chance at making the bestseller lists," or "why would Cook be
> > the first writer to do this in hundreds of years (you're proposing
> > the old system of patronage)," or "How much money do you think
> > you could get?" But rather than flesh them out I'll leave you to do
> > so. And don't get me started on electronic publishing.
> >
> > This said....
> >
> > My guess is that you will see new DE books. Cook now has the level of
> > popularity where he would start seeing some reissues. I could see NEFSA
> > picking up the earlier books (or mishla-merlin [sp? can't remember the
> > spelling] or Tor. I'm guessing that some time in the new ten years you
> > will see an Omnibus or a trade reissue.
> >
> > If these book were re-released and did well Cook will write more. Glen
> > is now making it into hard cover. This means Tor is seeing the sales
> > to make this viable.
> >
> > I'd write Tor, expressing interest, or better write Cook c/o Tor. He
could
> > then take this box of letters in when it came time to negotiate a new
> > contract (to whatever publisher he feels would most likely do it).
> >
> > christopher....
> >
> >
> > =======================================================================
> >  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> >  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> >
>
>
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>


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From: tslefman <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) RE: OT Demographics
Date: 14 Sep 2000 08:09:02 +0000

I'm 26 from Missouri.  My wife and I grew up here.  I do bookkeeping and
she teaches.  We have a son.
I have read all BC except for SL and that is on reserve at the library.
I have not read the Garrett files, as I want Tin, Gold, Copper, and
Quicksilver before I start them.  I've read Sung in Blood and I'm
reading the Swordbearer now.
(seen all of the star wars movies in the theatres.  original and new
editions).

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: (demographics)
Date: 14 Sep 2000 10:06:45 EDT


In a message dated 9/13/00 11:02:40 PM, [e-mail] writes:

>Well Richard I am 42, does that help?

And someone (who I won't out) wrote me to say that he was 59 (almost
60), so I'm guessing he wins.

christopher....

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From: "Tim McDowell" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: (demographics)
Date: 14 Sep 2000 07:24:37 -0700


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 9:32 PM


> Richard,
>
> Hmm, did I miss something?  I thought I was the oldest reporting in thus
> far, at 49.
>
> Steve
>
    And I'm right behind you at 48.
        Tim



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From: "Richard Gruver" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: (demographics)
Date: 14 Sep 2000 10:16:52 -0500

No, so far I'm the oldest to admit it, I'm 53.

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2000 9:24 AM


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Steve Harris <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 9:32 PM
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: (demographics)
>
>
> > Richard,
> >
> > Hmm, did I miss something?  I thought I was the oldest reporting in thus
> > far, at 49.
> >
> > Steve
> >
>     And I'm right behind you at 48.
>         Tim
>
>
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.


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From: Richard Chilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) When did "Lady" fall in love?
Date: 14 Sep 2000 14:38:37 -0300

Bob Dalgleish wrote:
>
> Lady got the name the old fashioned way - research.
>
> Even though Darling's whole village was wiped out, as well as her family,
> she was still traceable. Tying together Darlings' advent at the village
> (time and place taken from Croaker, et al, memory), then start searching
> for refugee's from the village, and remote kin. At least that is how I
> would do it, if I were queen of the world.
>

If that didn't work, well, Lady was into necromancy (contacting the
dead, seeing the future).  She knows where the village was, and almost
everyone in that village would know what that mute girl's name was.

Richard

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From: "Gary Burner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) A Different but Related Dread Empire question
Date: 14 Sep 2000 21:39:20 -0400

Christopher,

A variation on this theme: how about a dutch auction, i.e. mercata.com, for
the legendary DE book that has already been written but never published?
For example, would TOR or NEFSA agree to publish the book if 1000(?) people
agreed to pay $50.00(?) in advance for the first printing?  If not enough
people agreed in advance, then the book does not get published.  If more
than 1000 people agreed in advance to buy the book, then the price would go
lower.  The level of interest could be determined by having mercata.com, or
some other site, conduct a dutch auction with deposits being taken to
determine actual interest in purchasing the book.  The deposit could be held
in an escrow account until the book is actually published.

Do you think a professional publisher would be interested in the idea above?
How many guaranteed sales dollars would be required to interest a publisher
like TOR?

Gary

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 9:25 PM


>
> In a message dated 9/13/00 3:11:03 PM, [e-mail] writes:
>
> >why don't we (we being the body of persons who are active on this list)
> >commission glen cook to finish the dread empire sequels?
>
> Let me step up to bash the idea. As far as I know, no one on this list is
> a professional publisher, so basically you're asking Cook to trust a bunch
> of amateurs that have no qualifications other than that they are fans
> of his.
>
> If I were Cook and offered a choice between a contract with Tor or
> a handful of cash to write another book in a failed series...well, the
> choice isn't hard. No way in hell you'd get me to write a NEW book.
>
>
> This said....
>
> My guess is that you will see new DE books. Cook now has the level of
> popularity where he would start seeing some reissues. I could see NEFSA
> picking up the earlier books (or mishla-merlin [sp? can't remember the
> spelling] or Tor. I'm guessing that some time in the new ten years you
> will see an Omnibus or a trade reissue.
>
>
> christopher....



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From: "David George" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) A Different but Related Dread Empire question
Date: 14 Sep 2000 21:24:09 -0500

Work backwards from the current state of affairs in publishing.  Assume some
typical hardcover price.  Let's say 26.00 per book retail (Soldiers Live was
25.95).  Knock off 20% because so will Amazon.  We're down around 20 bucks a
copy (fudging, but let's keep the numbers nice and round).  Let's assume
that wholesale the book costs half that (again, fudging here, the big
dealers probably get a better deal and early orders are probably cheaper
too).  That means that the publisher gets about 10 bucks gross per unit.
I'm guessing.

Now, how many units does the publisher have to move to consider the book a
commercial success?  Not a Stephen King success, but a Glen Cook success?
Let's pluck a nice round number out of the air and say 10,000 units.  Times
ten bucks, they are looking for a gross of around $100,000.  Let's be wild
and crazy and guess that they get a margin of 25%, 25 grand after everyone
gets paid.  That is probably 2x or more what it really is.  On 75K expenses.

Take all these numbers with more than a grain of salt.  Try a salt lick.
Someone with more publishing experience should weigh in with an opinion
here, but I suspect that my numbers are too optimistic, in terms of
expenses, margins, and minimum print runs and sales.

How much lower can we expect the expenses of the imagined deal to be?  Not
much.  A lot of money is spent up front on setting up presses and the like.
Once they get cranking, printing costs go down per unit as the number of
units increase, reaching some eventual break even point.

The gist of all the gesticulating is that book publishing, as we have known
it, is expensive.  For 1000 books or 10,000 books.  So expensive that it has
attracted people with big computers and print-on-demand machines.  So
expensive that B&N is planning to roll out hundreds of such machines over
the next year or so.

The ideal would be that eliminating the expenses and inventory of the
current print-thousands-and-hope-they-sell will cause publishers to take
more chances.  If you take the traditional printing out of the deal, then
what you have are production costs (art, writing, editing) and promotion
costs.  What looked like a loser when you had to print thousands of books
that might never sell might be worth a chance when you don't have to print
any.  Or even promote it if you don't want.

Of course, that leaves the author and the fan base to do the promoting.  It
is probably going to get easier to "find a publisher" for your work (some
will take 100 bucks and do the basics for you today) but the writer will do
more work.  Until they are famous enough to not need it so badly.

I hear a lot of people talk about "vanity press" when they discuss print on
demand.  In the next two years, we shall see, but I think the big publishers
take it very seriously.

Which means, wait a while.  Maybe that last DE book will come out anyway.
Certainly much of the OOP list should find its way back into print via
print-on-demand.  Glen Cook should not be an exception to this trend.

DG

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2000 8:39 PM


> Christopher,
>
> A variation on this theme: how about a dutch auction, i.e. mercata.com,
for
> the legendary DE book that has already been written but never published?
> For example, would TOR or NEFSA agree to publish the book if 1000(?)
people
> agreed to pay $50.00(?) in advance for the first printing?  If not enough
> people agreed in advance, then the book does not get published.  If more
> than 1000 people agreed in advance to buy the book, then the price would
go
> lower.  The level of interest could be determined by having mercata.com,
or
> some other site, conduct a dutch auction with deposits being taken to
> determine actual interest in purchasing the book.  The deposit could be
held
> in an escrow account until the book is actually published.
>
> Do you think a professional publisher would be interested in the idea
above?
> How many guaranteed sales dollars would be required to interest a
publisher
> like TOR?
>
> Gary
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 9:25 PM
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) A Different but Related Dread Empire question
>
>
> >
> > In a message dated 9/13/00 3:11:03 PM, [e-mail] writes:
> >
> > >why don't we (we being the body of persons who are active on this list)
> > >commission glen cook to finish the dread empire sequels?
> >
> > Let me step up to bash the idea. As far as I know, no one on this list
is
> > a professional publisher, so basically you're asking Cook to trust a
bunch
> > of amateurs that have no qualifications other than that they are fans
> > of his.
> >
> > If I were Cook and offered a choice between a contract with Tor or
> > a handful of cash to write another book in a failed series...well, the
> > choice isn't hard. No way in hell you'd get me to write a NEW book.
> >
> >
> > This said....
> >
> > My guess is that you will see new DE books. Cook now has the level of
> > popularity where he would start seeing some reissues. I could see NEFSA
> > picking up the earlier books (or mishla-merlin [sp? can't remember the
> > spelling] or Tor. I'm guessing that some time in the new ten years you
> > will see an Omnibus or a trade reissue.
> >
> >
> > christopher....
>
>
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.


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From: "Joshua Peery" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Cook and Print on Demand
Date: 15 Sep 2000 08:18:16 -0400

IMHO ..   it seems to me that Cook is a kinda "stuck" in 1970's mode of
thinking ... no computers... hanging out at conventions... and other things
that strike me as "old-fashioned"  .. Think Cook would actually consider
using a publishing method(print on demand) that is outside his "comfort
zone" ?  If Cook had promoted himself a little more, Croaker could of have
been the "Drizz't Do'Urden" of the fantasy world.  I think Cook writes
because he enjoys it, and does not seem to care wether his books are
successful out on the market or if other people like them even, only that he
gets paid by his publisher for what he writes, since he quit his day job.
I think if someone ponied the money Cook expected to get from this DE book,
AND retain his rights to it, AND not breach any contracts he may have with
his current publisher,  I think the book could be published.




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From: "Tim McDowell" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Cook and Print on Demand
Date: 15 Sep 2000 07:32:34 -0700


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2000 5:18 AM


> IMHO ..   it seems to me that Cook is a kinda "stuck" in 1970's mode of
> thinking ... no computers... hanging out at conventions... and other
things
> that strike me as "old-fashioned"  .. Think Cook would actually consider
> using a publishing method(print on demand) that is outside his "comfort
> zone" ?  If Cook had promoted himself a little more, Croaker could of have
> been the "Drizz't Do'Urden" of the fantasy world.  I think Cook writes
> because he enjoys it, and does not seem to care wether his books are
> successful out on the market or if other people like them even, only that
he
> gets paid by his publisher for what he writes, since he quit his day job.
> I think if someone ponied the money Cook expected to get from this DE
book,
> AND retain his rights to it, AND not breach any contracts he may have with
> his current publisher,  I think the book could be published.
>
    You arguements could very well be correct. But may I present some thing;
as an example, that could take this in a different direction.
    While following links one day, I stumbled onto the following site.

http://www.classicbookshelf.com/

    Now I don't know enough about it to put forward an opinion, but could
something like what was done at this site be possible?

    Just a thought. Have a great day and enjoy the olympics.

    Tim




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From: [e-mail] (Steve Chew)
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Cook and Print on Demand
Date: 15 Sep 2000 11:07:37 -0400 (EDT)

Also wik Joshua Peery:
>
>IMHO ..   it seems to me that Cook is a kinda "stuck" in 1970's mode of
>thinking ... no computers... hanging out at conventions... and other things
>that strike me as "old-fashioned"  .. Think Cook would actually consider
>using a publishing method(print on demand) that is outside his "comfort
>zone" ?  If Cook had promoted himself a little more, Croaker could of have
>been the "Drizz't Do'Urden" of the fantasy world.

    Going to conventions *is* self-promotion.  There isn't much beyond
that kind of thing that authors can do to promote themselves without
spending a lot of money or else a lot of time.  Promoting yourself online
is a time consuming task (and that's what we're for ;-).  Plus, as you
pointed out Cook isn't a big computer fan.  I agree that Cook is more
interested in writing than in promoting.

                Steve


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From: David Ainsworth <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) SL Dangling threads (Spoilers)
Date: 15 Sep 2000 10:56:05 -0500

I have observed that part of the way Cook designs his plots is to generate a
lot of dangling plot threads.  I like his work in part because it is complex
enough that I can't predict what's going to happen... or, I can't do so much
in advance of the characters in the story.  And his habit of leaving lots of
threads dangling both adds to that unpredictability, and makes it easier for
him to write sequels or have something subtle from an earlier book end up
being more important than it seemed.

So, in the spirit of the "is he done with BC" topic, I'd like to open
discussion of the threads Cook's left hanging at the end of Soldiers Live.

SPOILER SPACE
.
.
.
.
.
.
Let me just expand on the ideas I've already read here...

Besides the obvious ('Catcher, Booboo, etc), what is going to happen with
Tobo/Thi Kim?  At the end of SL he still hasn't gotten his new "name," nor
has he seemed to earn it.  I was expecting after Water Sleeps that he was
destined to slay Kina, but events don't seem to have borne that hypothesis out.

The Lance of Passion may have fertilized Kina in some way (that's certainly
the impression one gets reading Goblin's description of what happened to
it).  What's the gestation period of a god?  Could Kina's spawn have been
released in some way before she was killed?  Might she in some way have put
her claws into Tobo (who seemed to have a special attraction to her, and
seems vulnerable after his parents are slain)?

A lot of BC (and Cook in general) is about perspective.  All the religious
info we get and the varying myths concerning Kina must add up to some sort
of picture.  Is there any truth in the perspective Booboo gives us?  Was
Kina created as a sort of Grandfather Tree or other form of Dominator/evil
cleansing?  If so, did she become what she was created/endowed to fight, or
not?  And will the Lords of Light find a replacement faster than Croaker
seems to think they will?

Cook has stressed the pattern of ancient powerful evil coming to ascendency
and being contained but not destroyed.  Presumably this pattern holds true
in Khatovar.  With the gate broken and shadows running rampant there, one
presumes that only a real heavyweight (like the Dominator) is going to be
able to keep himself going.  When the shadows are on a rampage, might they
disrupt some sort of Barrowland arrangement and unleash something with the
capacity to repair the gate?

For that matter, what is the source/meaning of the broomsticks (the flying
poles)?  My impression at the end is that the explosion of the pole was at
least as much a cause of Kina's death as One-eye's spear.  Who made these
things, and for what ultimate purpose?

David


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From: Richard Chilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Cook and Print on Demand
Date: 15 Sep 2000 15:13:16 -0300

Joshua Peery wrote:
>
> IMHO ..   it seems to me that Cook is a kinda "stuck" in 1970's mode of
> thinking ... no computers... hanging out at conventions... and other things
> that strike me as "old-fashioned"  .. Think Cook would actually consider
> using a publishing method(print on demand) that is outside his "comfort
> zone" ?  If Cook had promoted himself a little more, Croaker could of have
> been the "Drizz't Do'Urden" of the fantasy world.  I think Cook writes
> because he enjoys it, and does not seem to care wether his books are
> successful out on the market or if other people like them even, only that he
> gets paid by his publisher for what he writes, since he quit his day job.
> I think if someone ponied the money Cook expected to get from this DE book,
> AND retain his rights to it, AND not breach any contracts he may have with
> his current publisher,  I think the book could be published.
>

I disagree - I think that if there was real money involved he'd get
involved.  Cook doesn't have to understand how it works - that's what
his agent is for.
Cook only writes books that have been sold to publishers.  When he
realized there was that mix up over the number of books he had sold he
stopped work on the last book of a trilogy (_The Glittering Stone_,
third book of the South) and moved on to other projects.
He's had that rule since he counted the number of wasted hours he spent
writing that unpublished Dread Empire book.  Would you or I say it was
wasted time? Probably not, but since he wasn't paid for the book it was
time he could have been using to earn money.  He realized he couldn't
afford to write even a short story for his own enjoyment.
During the long wait for the _The Glittering Stone_ I heard (and this
might not be accurate) that the reason Cook was only writting 2 books a
year was a lack of time.  He couldn't work full time and produce more,
and he had to work full time.  While he's now retired he couldn't
support his family on with the money he made writting.
His highest earning year to that point (when the 3 in 1 Black Company
club book was issued) was around $14 000.  He sold, but he wasn't on
best seller lists.  If there was any way he could make the best seller
lists he would take it.

If his agent went to him tomorrow and told him there was a way for him
to make decent money from his backlist, I can't see Cook getting
concerned over whether it was a new way of selling books.  Alas, the
Printing On Demand business models still need work, and many of the
companies doing it are basically vanity presses.

In my view the reason Crocker isn't Drizz't Do'Urden has more to do with
the maturity of Cook's subject matter and his style rather than self
promotion.
Look at _The Black Company_:
the 'heros' betraying their contract,
the murder of the garrison as they were leaving town,
working for the evil side,
One Eye's "paying" for that last round in Opal,
Raven killing his wife in cold blood,
an entire village (including babies) being wiped out,
Darling's childhood gang rape at the hands of drunken soldiers,
etc.

That's mature reading.  The style is dark and gritty.  It's not mass
market, but it's Glen Cook's style of writing.  I like it, you like, but
some parents wouldn't want their teen reading it.

Look at the Icewind Dale books that introduced Drizz't Do'Urden:
Supported by the whole D&D fan base,
sterotypical 'Old Dwarf, Halfling thief, Young Woman, Young Barbarian
Male, and Elf (dark elf in this case) fighting the forces of evil while
helping the weak' plot,
no grey - only "good vs evil",
nothing that would risk an R rating - maybe PG at worst.

Not that I have anything against Salitoria (probably spelled his name
wrong) but the first books in the series, the ones that made Drizz't
Do'Urden famous and worth doing more books on, were early books for
him.  I could be wrong, but I think they were his first books.  As his
writings matured he tackled more difficult subject matter but those
first books were mass market pulp.

That said, at one point (years and years ago) there was talk of
re-issuing the Dread Empire novels for The Forgotten Realms setting, but
it never went beyond the option stage.

Salitoria didn't promote himself when he started writting about Drizz't
Do'Urden - TSR promoted him.  Cook's publishers have pushed his books a
bit but not to the same extent.

Richard

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From: Richard Chilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL Dangling threads (Spoilers)
Date: 15 Sep 2000 15:28:25 -0300

David Ainsworth wrote:
>
> I have observed that part of the way Cook designs his plots is to generate a
> lot of dangling plot threads.  I like his work in part because it is complex
> enough that I can't predict what's going to happen... or, I can't do so much
> in advance of the characters in the story.  And his habit of leaving lots of
> threads dangling both adds to that unpredictability, and makes it easier for
> him to write sequels or have something subtle from an earlier book end up
> being more important than it seemed.
>

Sometimes he never gets back to those threads, or they become too
tangled.  Garnet and his various relations with his girlfriends come to
mind as a big tangle.

> So, in the spirit of the "is he done with BC" topic, I'd like to open
> discussion of the threads Cook's left hanging at the end of Soldiers Live.
>

Personally, I hope he's done.

> SPOILER SPACE
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> Let me just expand on the ideas I've already read here...
>
> Besides the obvious ('Catcher, Booboo, etc), what is going to happen with
> Tobo/Thi Kim?  At the end of SL he still hasn't gotten his new "name," nor
> has he seemed to earn it.  I was expecting after Water Sleeps that he was
> destined to slay Kina, but events don't seem to have borne that hypothesis out.
>

I think Tobo will either become a good guy sorcerer or die.  Er, make
that have mommy, grandma, and great grand ma invite him to live full
time in the spirit world (so his body dies).  If he lives, his destiny
seems to lie with the Forgotten Shadows rather than the Black Company.

> The Lance of Passion may have fertilized Kina in some way (that's certainly
> the impression one gets reading Goblin's description of what happened to
> it).  What's the gestation period of a god?  Could Kina's spawn have been
> released in some way before she was killed?  Might she in some way have put
> her claws into Tobo (who seemed to have a special attraction to her, and
> seems vulnerable after his parents are slain)?
>

Interesting theory.

> A lot of BC (and Cook in general) is about perspective.  All the religious
> info we get and the varying myths concerning Kina must add up to some sort
> of picture.  Is there any truth in the perspective Booboo gives us?  Was
> Kina created as a sort of Grandfather Tree or other form of Dominator/evil
> cleansing?  If so, did she become what she was created/endowed to fight, or
> not?  And will the Lords of Light find a replacement faster than Croaker
> seems to think they will?
>

Personally, I think she was eating the evil of the world.  The 'fall
into a coma and die' thing that happened to one of the sorcerer kids and
Soulcatcher was probably Kina eating them.  Even the death of the
werecat seemed too easy to Lady.
As for the plans of Gods, I'd say they take a long, long time.

> Cook has stressed the pattern of ancient powerful evil coming to ascendency
> and being contained but not destroyed.  Presumably this pattern holds true
> in Khatovar.  With the gate broken and shadows running rampant there, one
> presumes that only a real heavyweight (like the Dominator) is going to be
> able to keep himself going.  When the shadows are on a rampage, might they
> disrupt some sort of Barrowland arrangement and unleash something with the
> capacity to repair the gate?
>

The Gate was repaired.  90% of the Shadows were dead by the time Crocker
pulled his rescue mission.  I don't think the Family was keeping
something under control - their utter lack of respect for history seems
to point away from that.

> For that matter, what is the source/meaning of the broomsticks (the flying
> poles)?  My impression at the end is that the explosion of the pole was at
> least as much a cause of Kina's death as One-eye's spear.  Who made these
> things, and for what ultimate purpose?
>

The Family made the broomsticks, but where did they (the Family) come
from?  The Family and the Shadow Masters all seemed to have the same
source, which Crocker hints is important.  The marking on the
broomsticks are similar to ones in the circles on the Plain.
Which brings up one of the biggest loose threads I noticed.  At one
point when someone dies Crocker wonders if that death has cause a new
pillar to appear on the Plain.

Richard

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: (glencook-fans) Soulcatcher
Date: 15 Sep 2000 14:56:11 EDT

Is it my imagination (or limited memory, because this is a spur-of-the-moment coment), or did Cook never show Soulcatcher "soul-catching"?

Croaker mentions that the voices are those of the people she has killed, but I don't recall a recent kill's voice coming back to haunt any of the Company...that would have been an interesting scene.

Win

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From: Richard Chilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Soulcatcher
Date: 15 Sep 2000 16:10:29 -0300

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> Is it my imagination (or limited memory, because this is a spur-of-the-moment coment), or did Cook never show Soulcatcher "soul-catching"?
>
> Croaker mentions that the voices are those of the people she has killed, but I don't recall a recent kill's voice coming back to haunt any of the Company...that would have been an interesting scene.
>

This is based on memory, so I might have a detail or two wrong, but:

In the first book, when one of the circle goes down and 3 of Ten stand
around watching one their number (Hanged Man?) die Crocker sees Catcher
disolve into a mist that evelopes some soldiers.  The soldiers collapse
lifelessly to the ground without a mark on them.
I think that was Soulcatcher taking their souls.  She never killed any
of the Company like that, so we never heard their voices.

Richard

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From: Craig Dutton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Soulcatcher
Date: 15 Sep 2000 12:24:43 -0700 (PDT)

--- Richard Chilton <[e-mail]> wrote:
> > Is it my imagination (or limited memory, because this is a
> spur-of-the-moment coment), or did Cook never show Soulcatcher
> "soul-catching"?
> >
> > Croaker mentions that the voices are those of the people she has killed,
> but I don't recall a recent kill's voice coming back to haunt any of the
> Company...that would have been an interesting scene.
> >
>
> This is based on memory, so I might have a detail or two wrong, but:
>
> In the first book, when one of the circle goes down and 3 of Ten stand
> around watching one their number (Hanged Man?) die Crocker sees Catcher
> disolve into a mist that evelopes some soldiers.  The soldiers collapse
> lifelessly to the ground without a mark on them.
> I think that was Soulcatcher taking their souls.  She never killed any
> of the Company like that, so we never heard their voices.

I just assumed the Soulcataching was a time intensive ritual that didn't lend
itself to wartime, possibly including a period of mental adjustment while the
absorbed soul was 'put in its place'.

Craig
>
> Richard
>


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From: Steve Harris <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Cook and Print on Demand
Date: 15 Sep 2000 14:26:31 -0500

Richard,

What is this fascinating publishing history you're referring to?

"When he
realized there was that mix up over the number of books he had sold he
stopped work on the last book of a trilogy (_The Glittering Stone_,
third book of the South) and moved on to other projects.
He's had that rule since he counted the number of wasted hours he spent
writing that unpublished Dread Empire book."

Steve

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From: Igor Filippov <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL Dangling threads (Spoilers)
Date: 15 Sep 2000 15:35:51 -0400 (EDT)

To follow the spirit of the series it would seem more appropriate for
Tobo to become a bad guy (Dominator scale), who will have  to be killed
either by Croaker's adopted or natural daughter(s)

Richard, why are you always call Croaker "crocker" ?
Just out of curiosity - I stumble upon this typo over and over again...

Igor


On Fri, 15 Sep 2000, Richard Chilton wrote:

> David Ainsworth wrote:
> >
> > I have observed that part of the way Cook designs his plots is to generate a
> > lot of dangling plot threads.  I like his work in part because it is complex
> > enough that I can't predict what's going to happen... or, I can't do so much
> > in advance of the characters in the story.  And his habit of leaving lots of
> > threads dangling both adds to that unpredictability, and makes it easier for
> > him to write sequels or have something subtle from an earlier book end up
> > being more important than it seemed.
> >
>
> Sometimes he never gets back to those threads, or they become too
> tangled.  Garnet and his various relations with his girlfriends come to
> mind as a big tangle.
>
> > So, in the spirit of the "is he done with BC" topic, I'd like to open
> > discussion of the threads Cook's left hanging at the end of Soldiers Live.
> >
>
> Personally, I hope he's done.
>
> > SPOILER SPACE
> > .
> > .
> > .
> > .
> > .
> > .
> > Let me just expand on the ideas I've already read here...
> >
> > Besides the obvious ('Catcher, Booboo, etc), what is going to happen with
> > Tobo/Thi Kim?  At the end of SL he still hasn't gotten his new "name," nor
> > has he seemed to earn it.  I was expecting after Water Sleeps that he was
> > destined to slay Kina, but events don't seem to have borne that hypothesis out.
> >
>
> I think Tobo will either become a good guy sorcerer or die.  Er, make
> that have mommy, grandma, and great grand ma invite him to live full
> time in the spirit world (so his body dies).  If he lives, his destiny
> seems to lie with the Forgotten Shadows rather than the Black Company.
>
> > The Lance of Passion may have fertilized Kina in some way (that's certainly
> > the impression one gets reading Goblin's description of what happened to
> > it).  What's the gestation period of a god?  Could Kina's spawn have been
> > released in some way before she was killed?  Might she in some way have put
> > her claws into Tobo (who seemed to have a special attraction to her, and
> > seems vulnerable after his parents are slain)?
> >
>
> Interesting theory.
>
> > A lot of BC (and Cook in general) is about perspective.  All the religious
> > info we get and the varying myths concerning Kina must add up to some sort
> > of picture.  Is there any truth in the perspective Booboo gives us?  Was
> > Kina created as a sort of Grandfather Tree or other form of Dominator/evil
> > cleansing?  If so, did she become what she was created/endowed to fight, or
> > not?  And will the Lords of Light find a replacement faster than Croaker
> > seems to think they will?
> >
>
> Personally, I think she was eating the evil of the world.  The 'fall
> into a coma and die' thing that happened to one of the sorcerer kids and
> Soulcatcher was probably Kina eating them.  Even the death of the
> werecat seemed too easy to Lady.
> As for the plans of Gods, I'd say they take a long, long time.
>
> > Cook has stressed the pattern of ancient powerful evil coming to ascendency
> > and being contained but not destroyed.  Presumably this pattern holds true
> > in Khatovar.  With the gate broken and shadows running rampant there, one
> > presumes that only a real heavyweight (like the Dominator) is going to be
> > able to keep himself going.  When the shadows are on a rampage, might they
> > disrupt some sort of Barrowland arrangement and unleash something with the
> > capacity to repair the gate?
> >
>
> The Gate was repaired.  90% of the Shadows were dead by the time Crocker
> pulled his rescue mission.  I don't think the Family was keeping
> something under control - their utter lack of respect for history seems
> to point away from that.
>
> > For that matter, what is the source/meaning of the broomsticks (the flying
> > poles)?  My impression at the end is that the explosion of the pole was at
> > least as much a cause of Kina's death as One-eye's spear.  Who made these
> > things, and for what ultimate purpose?
> >
>
> The Family made the broomsticks, but where did they (the Family) come
> from?  The Family and the Shadow Masters all seemed to have the same
> source, which Crocker hints is important.  The marking on the
> broomsticks are similar to ones in the circles on the Plain.
> Which brings up one of the biggest loose threads I noticed.  At one
> point when someone dies Crocker wonders if that death has cause a new
> pillar to appear on the Plain.
>
> Richard
>
> =======================================================================
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>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>


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From: Richard Chilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Cook and Print on Demand
Date: 15 Sep 2000 16:41:23 -0300

Steve Harris wrote:
>
> Richard,
>
> What is this fascinating publishing history you're referring to?
>
> "When he
> realized there was that mix up over the number of books he had sold he
> stopped work on the last book of a trilogy (_The Glittering Stone_,
> third book of the South) and moved on to other projects.
> He's had that rule since he counted the number of wasted hours he spent
> writing that unpublished Dread Empire book."
>

Cook thought he had a deal to write a trilogy (The Books of the South)
and a book to tie up loose ends (_The Silver Spike_).  I'm not sure of
what happened but there was probably confusion between Cook, his agent,
and his editor.  Maybe _The Swordbearer_ (listed as forthcoming in
_Dreams of Steal_) was the problem (3 Black Company books and a stand
alone?) - I don't know.

His publisher saw it as a three book deal:
_Shadow Games_ (first book)
_The Silver Spike_ (second book)
_Dreams of Steal_ (third book)

So _Glitter Stone_ (conclusion of the Books of the South) wasn't
covered.  _Dreams of Steal_ was put out in 1990... Followed by a long,
long wait.
When Cook realized the mistake he stopped work on _Glitter Stone_.
Years later, when the publish thought there was interest enough to
publish more Black Company books he went back to the unfinished draft
and the notes he'd made.

Waiting for _Glitter Stone_ was hard, but worth it.  If there hadn't
been that mix up the four _Glitter Stone_ books would have been one
novel.

Richard

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From: Richard Chilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL Dangling threads (Spoilers)
Date: 15 Sep 2000 17:13:04 -0300

Igor Filippov wrote:
>
> To follow the spirit of the series it would seem more appropriate for
> Tobo to become a bad guy (Dominator scale), who will have  to be killed
> either by Croaker's adopted or natural daughter(s)
>

I think his dead relative may stop it, but that is just my opinion...

> Richard, why are you always call Croaker "crocker" ?
> Just out of curiosity - I stumble upon this typo over and over again...
>

Hmmm...
Well, I'd have to say it's because I'm not the world's best and usually
forget to spell check.  When I'm typing fast I often find myself making
the same spelling mistake over and over again.  I'm not sure why - as
Bush said recently I've never been diagnosed with a disability - but
it's something I find myself doing with surprising frenquency.  I've
also noticed that if something is mispelled in an email I'm replying to
I'll use the same mispelling.  I guess I subconsciously glance at what's
on the screen and use that spelling.

Sorry - I'll try to watch it in the future.

Richard

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From: Steve Harris <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Cook and Print on Demand
Date: 15 Sep 2000 15:19:31 -0500

Richard,

Thanks for the insight into the perils of publishing :)

I heard (I don't recall how or exactly when) that the long wait between
_Dreams of Stone_ and the remainder of the Books of the South was due to
Cook having started _Glittering Stone_ and then stopping it and starting
all over again when he realized he had more than a single book's worth
of story material to tell.  I'd interpreted this as meaning there would
be two books to _Glittering Stone_ and was quite surprised (pleasantly,
of course) when it turned into four.

Does anyone else recall hearing something like this?  Maybe what I heard
was just a garbled version of the story you've detailed here.

Steve

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From: Richard Chilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Cook and Print on Demand
Date: 15 Sep 2000 18:06:58 -0300

Tim McDowell wrote:
>
>     You arguements could very well be correct. But may I present some thing;
> as an example, that could take this in a different direction.
>     While following links one day, I stumbled onto the following site.
>
> http://www.classicbookshelf.com/
>
>     Now I don't know enough about it to put forward an opinion, but could
> something like what was done at this site be possible?
>

It looks like an ad drive version of Project Gluntenburg - books whose
copyrights have expired offered for free.  I can't see Cook giving away
his backlist here.
One of the problem with ebooks (at the moment at least) is making sure
each copy is paid for.

>     Just a thought. Have a great day and enjoy the olympics.
>

Just an off topic note:
CBC television (a Canadian channel) is doing live broadcasts of the
events as well as repeating them later in the day.  If you live in the
northern US there's a good chance you can pick up CBC and watch the
events live rather than with a 10 hour delay.

Richard

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From: "David George" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) The Upcoming Death of Publishing
Date: 15 Sep 2000 18:34:19 -0500

Described my rigamarole re: the costs of publishing and the upcoming
strengths of ebooks and print-on-demand at work today and got a deluge of
feedback, most of it confirming what I'd been hearing or guessing.

The gist of conversations was this: publishers of books are as dead as the
makers of CDs and LPs.  That is, they will either mutate their business
models or go out of business.

The arguments in favor of publishing houses (other than having the
printing/binding/distribution details of their business worked out) are
basically that they "filter the flow of books for the good stuff."

Except that there are lots of writers who editors turn down not because they
are not good but because they are not good enough to justify the production
expenses of publishing.  A number of writers were mentioned who believed in
their own work, self-promoted on the net and elsewhere, published by
e-books, and broke in.  Their status now is that they are "blessed by
publishers" and merit publication.  They did not change, but the market buzz
around them did.

Another thing is the miniscule cut that authors get on their work.  One
author writing on the topic indicated that he got about a buck a book for
hardcover books.  The rest was eaten up by publishing (corporate cut,
production, promotion, printing and shipping).  For two bucks a copy, I
suspect most authors would desert their publishers without a thought.
Writers write for money, for the most part.  Certainly, I think Glen Cook
writes for money.  That is, he would favor projects that paid more over
those that paid less or not at all.

Another "strength" of publishing that was trotted out for bashing was the
value added by editors.  Yes, there are some good editors out there.  There
are also some buffoons and newbies and if you are not a top selling author,
guess who you get working on YOUR book?  Again, writers have written about
this in articles.

What might the future look like?  Publishing houses, without the paper and
trucking and so forth involved in making paper books, have what to offer
that can't be had somewhere else?  Not "brand identity"--quick, who
publishes Stepen King?  No cheating and looking at the bookshelf.  In
writing, virtually all of the brand resides in the author's name and
creations, not in the publisher's.  To succeed, a publisher has to build a
stable of talented editors and sign deals with talented writers.  But why do
they need the publisher?  Why wouldn't a talented editor spin off his own
brand?  The barriers to entry are miniscule, in terms of cash.  Serving
e-Books, print on demand, web exposure, these are all easily available at
low cost.

"Publishing power" accumulates in those parties (reviewers, "experts",
editors, even listservs and newsgroups) who can connect readers-with-cash
and writers-who-are-good.  Trucks and printing presses will not matter.
Cash and promotional expertise will matter somewhat, but the stranglehold of
publishing houses is about to disappear.

Yes, Stephen King will still make tons more money than his peers.  But the
barriers to entry are meaningless and more writers will get their chance.
Or, in the case of DE, perhaps, their second chance.

Will Glen Cook do this--put out-of-print books back into the market via
print on demand and/or e-books?  This inquiring mind would like to know.
Would the next person to see Glen at a con please ask him about this for us?
It would be exciting for us if he did.  No more wondering if loaned books
will come home or be irretrievably lost.  No more "I read this book but it's
out of print and you can't find it anymore, but it was really good..."  Yah,
the signed first-ed that has never been read will still have some value, but
the real value of books is in the reading...

DG

PS: No, he doesn't have to reissue Swap Academy to make me happy.  But, yes,
I'd probably try to read it if he did.


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: (glencook-fans)BC writing history was Re: Cook and Print on Demand
Date: 15 Sep 2000 20:32:22 EDT

In a message dated 9/15/00 2:45:18 PM Central Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

> > "When he
>  > realized there was that mix up over the number of books he had sold he
>  > stopped work on the last book of a trilogy (_The Glittering Stone_,
>  > third book of the South) and moved on to other projects.
>  > He's had that rule since he counted the number of wasted hours he spent
>  > writing that unpublished Dread Empire book."
>  >
>
>  Cook thought he had a deal to write a trilogy (The Books of the South)
>  and a book to tie up loose ends (_The Silver Spike_).  I'm not sure of
>  what happened but there was probably confusion between Cook, his agent,
>  and his editor.  Maybe _The Swordbearer_ (listed as forthcoming in
>  _Dreams of Steal_) was the problem (3 Black Company books and a stand
>  alone?) - I don't know.

You are treading in some rather murky waters here, but one thing is certain:
There was NEVER a period when Glen stopped writing BC books.  The reason
there was such a long wait before the Glittering Stone books is because he
couldn't find the correct "voice" in which to tell the non-Croaker narrated
books.  He started and restarted these books MANY times before he found
Murgens voice.  He had even completed books at one point and just trashed
them because they didn't feel right to him.  Where do I get this information?
From Glen himself.  There MAY have been a contract dispute, I don't know, but
he never stopped writing BC books.  In fact this year he said that the period
since he finished Soldiers Live is the longest he has gone without writing BC
in over a dozen years.

Michael W Sweet

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From: tslefman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans)BC writing history was Re: Cook and Print on Demand
Date: 15 Sep 2000 20:05:02 +0000

I've been pretty lucky.  I started reading the Black Company novels a
few years back and have only had to wait for the novels after Bleak
Seasons was published.

Still looking for Garrett novels, DE, and Starfishers.  Someday...


[e-mail] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 9/15/00 2:45:18 PM Central Daylight Time,
> [e-mail] writes:
>
> > > "When he
> >  > realized there was that mix up over the number of books he had sold he
> >  > stopped work on the last book of a trilogy (_The Glittering Stone_,
> >  > third book of the South) and moved on to other projects.
> >  > He's had that rule since he counted the number of wasted hours he spent
> >  > writing that unpublished Dread Empire book."
> >  >
> >
> >  Cook thought he had a deal to write a trilogy (The Books of the South)
> >  and a book to tie up loose ends (_The Silver Spike_).  I'm not sure of
> >  what happened but there was probably confusion between Cook, his agent,
> >  and his editor.  Maybe _The Swordbearer_ (listed as forthcoming in
> >  _Dreams of Steal_) was the problem (3 Black Company books and a stand
> >  alone?) - I don't know.
>
> You are treading in some rather murky waters here, but one thing is certain:
> There was NEVER a period when Glen stopped writing BC books.  The reason
> there was such a long wait before the Glittering Stone books is because he
> couldn't find the correct "voice" in which to tell the non-Croaker narrated
> books.  He started and restarted these books MANY times before he found
> Murgens voice.  He had even completed books at one point and just trashed
> them because they didn't feel right to him.  Where do I get this information?
> >From Glen himself.  There MAY have been a contract dispute, I don't know, but
> he never stopped writing BC books.  In fact this year he said that the period
> since he finished Soldiers Live is the longest he has gone without writing BC
> in over a dozen years.
>
> Michael W Sweet
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.

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From: Dave Roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 15 Sep 2000 20:38:58 -0500

At 01:10 AM 9/9/00 -0400, [e-mail] wrote

>So I am 30, male, single, make around $25,000, live in the midwest (US for
>those...),
>been reading Cook for two years, but I get the feeling that I am probably one
>of the
>oldest people on this list. While my sex insures that I am with the majority,
>I somehow
>get an impression few of those out there are employed fulltime or are as old
>as me
>(somehow I have no problem reconciling singleness with being a Cook reader).
>Anyway,
>just wondering how many others are in my demographic.
>
>christopher....
>
>p.s. if your weren't old enough to see Star Wars in the theater the first
>time you're
>not in the demographic.
>
>=======================================================================
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>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.

Well, I'm 36, live in northeastern Texas, and have been reading Cook since
1986.  I bought several paperbacks to take along when the Marine squadron I
was attached to went on West-Pac '86 (aboard the USS Tarawa).  One of those
paperbacks was Shadows Linger, the others I don't remember.  On a side
note, I enjoy the Garrett novels as much as the Black Company series
(although the last three Garrett novels weren't up to par with the first
six, imho).

I didn't get to see Star Wars in the theater until 1982 - chalk that one up
to the beliefs of the church I was brought up in - no unnecessary
associating with the heathen and all that rot, which meant, among other
things, no movies.



Dave Roberts
[e-mail]

A witty saying proves nothing.
            Voltaire


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From: "Jordan Raney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Re: Soulcatcher
Date: 15 Sep 2000 20:47:36 -0500

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I think I remember reading something like "the different voices she uses =
are rumored to be the souls she's stolen."  That's a lot different than =
saying she got the souls of those she killed...quite a bit different in =
fact.  Someone said this already, but I agree that it probably involved =
more of a time consuming ritual rather than simply killing someone...

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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I think I remember reading something like "the =
different=20
voices she uses are rumored to be the souls she's stolen."  That's =
a lot=20
different than saying she got the souls of those she killed...quite a =
bit=20
different in fact.  Someone said this already, but I agree=20
that it probably involved more of a time consuming ritual rather =
than=20
simply killing someone...</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: Richard Chilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Cook and Print on Demand
Date: 16 Sep 2000 01:37:35 -0300

Steve Harris wrote:
>
> Richard,
>
> What is this fascinating publishing history you're referring to?
>
> "When he
> realized there was that mix up over the number of books he had sold he
> stopped work on the last book of a trilogy (_The Glittering Stone_,
> third book of the South) and moved on to other projects.
> He's had that rule since he counted the number of wasted hours he spent
> writing that unpublished Dread Empire book."
>

Cook thought he had a deal to write a trilogy (The Books of the South)
and a book to tie up loose ends (_The Silver Spike_).  I'm not sure of
what happened but there was probably confusion between Cook, his agent,
and his editor.  Maybe _The Swordbearer_ (listed as forthcoming in
_Dreams of Steal_) was the problem (3 Black Company books and a stand
alone?) - I don't know.

His publisher saw it as a three book deal:
_Shadow Games_ (first book)
_The Silver Spike_ (second book)
_Dreams of Steal_ (third book)

So _Glitter Stone_ (conclusion of the Books of the South) wasn't
covered.  _Dreams of Steal_ was put out in 1990... Followed by a long,
long wait.
When Cook realized the mistake he stopped work on _Glitter Stone_.
Years later, when the publish thought there was interest enough to
publish more Black Company books he went back to the unfinished draft
and the notes he'd made.

Waiting for _Glitter Stone_ was hard, but worth it.  If there hadn't
been that mix up the four _Glitter Stone_ books would have been one
novel.

Richard

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From: Richard Chilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL Dangling threads (Spoilers)
Date: 16 Sep 2000 01:37:38 -0300

Igor Filippov wrote:
>
> To follow the spirit of the series it would seem more appropriate for
> Tobo to become a bad guy (Dominator scale), who will have  to be killed
> either by Croaker's adopted or natural daughter(s)
>

I think his dead relative may stop it, but that is just my opinion...

> Richard, why are you always call Croaker "crocker" ?
> Just out of curiosity - I stumble upon this typo over and over again...
>

Hmmm...
Well, I'd have to say it's because I'm not the world's best and usually
forget to spell check.  When I'm typing fast I often find myself making
the same spelling mistake over and over again.  I'm not sure why - as
Bush said recently I've never been diagnosed with a disability - but
it's something I find myself doing with surprising frenquency.  I've
also noticed that if something is mispelled in an email I'm replying to
I'll use the same mispelling.  I guess I subconsciously glance at what's
on the screen and use that spelling.

Sorry - I'll try to watch it in the future.

Richard

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From: Richard Chilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Cook and Print on Demand
Date: 16 Sep 2000 01:37:43 -0300

Tim McDowell wrote:
>
>     You arguements could very well be correct. But may I present some thing;
> as an example, that could take this in a different direction.
>     While following links one day, I stumbled onto the following site.
>
> http://www.classicbookshelf.com/
>
>     Now I don't know enough about it to put forward an opinion, but could
> something like what was done at this site be possible?
>

It looks like an ad drive version of Project Gluntenburg - books whose
copyrights have expired offered for free.  I can't see Cook giving away
his backlist here.
One of the problem with ebooks (at the moment at least) is making sure
each copy is paid for.

>     Just a thought. Have a great day and enjoy the olympics.
>

Just an off topic note:
CBC television (a Canadian channel) is doing live broadcasts of the
events as well as repeating them later in the day.  If you live in the
northern US there's a good chance you can pick up CBC and watch the
events live rather than with a 10 hour delay.

Richard

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From: Pat & Ellen Hannum <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: (demographics)
Date: 16 Sep 2000 09:22:29 -0700



Tim McDowell wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Steve Harris <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 9:32 PM
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: (demographics)
>
> > Richard,
> >
> > Hmm, did I miss something?  I thought I was the oldest reporting in thus
> > far, at 49.
> >
> > Steve
> >
>     And I'm right behind you at 48.
>         Tim

right grandpa's us under 45's are giggling at ya.....

Pat
43


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From: "Don" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Out Of Print
Date: 07 Sep 2000 11:14:02 -0500

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Hi all,
For those of you who say there is no way to get out of print GC books =
from anywhere but the net, I give you this. I went into a local =
bookstore today on a whim. Just to see if they had any GC that I didn't. =
Well, they didn't have anything I needed but they did have this. =
Shadowline, A Shadow of All Night Falling, and Passage at arms. I went =
ahead and picked them up to maybe start new series collections and sell =
them to you all cheap. The Grand Total for all three was... $2.16. Go to =
your local used book stores... now!

Don=20
"In time, what's deserved always gets served."- COC



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<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi all,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For those of you who say there is no =
way to get out=20
of print GC books from anywhere but the net, I give you this. I went =
into a=20
local bookstore today on a whim. Just to see if they had any GC that I =
didn't.=20
Well, they didn't have anything I needed but they did have this. =
Shadowline, A=20
Shadow of All Night Falling, and Passage at arms. I went ahead and =
picked them=20
up to maybe start new series collections and sell them to you all cheap. =
The=20
Grand Total for all three was... $2.16. Go to your local used book =
stores...=20
now!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>Don <BR>"In time, what's deserved =
always gets=20
served."- COC</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Don" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) BC threads that should have been wrapped up SPoilers
Date: 07 Sep 2000 11:46:13 -0500

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I was thinking to myself. What old issues were left unresolved at the =
apparent end of tBC. Do you all remember when one of the wizards (Goblin =
or One Eye) mentioned that they didn't know what Kina was but they were =
pretty sure that the facade portrayed was not her real physical aspect. =
I got the feeling she was more of some Bad Ass left over from the =
plains' history that got shafted and imprisoned. Kind of like the thing =
under Old Father Tree. I would like to know what she really was. I don't =
by the goddess bit. The rest of the books clung too much to the belief =
that religion was for the disillusioned.=20
I really wanted to hear more about Uncle Doj and the Nue Buano (sp). I =
kept waiting for them to open up and embrace the Stone Soldiers. It was =
kind of cool that they didn't but still. All we ever heard was how every =
thing Uncle said could be total BS.=20
What was up Blade's ass about priests anyway?=20
I did like that Taglios got hammered at the end. I think I speak for a =
great majority when I say there was nothing redeeming about that city. =
When the Limper went through the cities of the North like a scythe I =
felt a sense of loss. When Taglios got stomped I was up for killing them =
all and let Kina sort them out.
These are just my opinions feel free to tear them down.

Don=20
"In time, what's deserved always gets served."- COC



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<HTML><HEAD>
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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I was thinking to myself. What old =
issues were left=20
unresolved at the apparent end of tBC. Do you all remember when one of =
the=20
wizards (Goblin or One Eye) mentioned that they didn't know what Kina =
was but=20
they were pretty sure that the facade portrayed was not her real =
physical=20
aspect. I got the feeling she was more of some Bad Ass left over from =
the=20
plains' history that got shafted and imprisoned. Kind of like the thing =
under=20
Old Father Tree. I would like to know what she really was. I don't by =
the=20
goddess bit. The rest of the books clung too much to the belief that =
religion=20
was for the disillusioned. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I really wanted to hear more about =
Uncle Doj and=20
the Nue Buano (sp). I kept waiting for them to open up and embrace the =
Stone=20
Soldiers. It was kind of cool that they didn't but still. All we ever =
heard was=20
how every thing Uncle said could be total BS. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>What was up Blade's ass about priests =
anyway?=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I did like that Taglios got hammered at =
the end. I=20
think I speak for a great majority when I say there was nothing =
redeeming about=20
that city. When the Limper went through the cities of the North like a =
scythe I=20
felt a sense of loss. When Taglios got stomped I was up for killing them =
all and=20
let Kina sort them out.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>These are just my opinions feel free to =
tear them=20
down.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>Don <BR>"In time, what's deserved =
always gets=20
served."- COC</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: Dustin A Miller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Out Of Print
Date: 16 Sep 2000 17:50:45 -0700

Good for you Don.  Three days ago I picked up The Dragon Never Sleeps,
The Fire in His Hands, and the entire Darkwar trilogy for only 6 bucks.
I just felt like walking into a local bookstore and there they were.
Every once in a while you can find something great in a place you don't
expect.  Good luck to everyone else out there.

                            Dustin

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From: "C.L. Yona" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Question about my favorite pooch
Date: 16 Sep 2000 22:48:46 -0400


 So, after finishing SL I started to reread the series again and became
reacquainted with Toadkiller Dog.  maybe this has been asked before, and
maybe I missed it, but do we ever learn the origin of Toadkiller Dog's
name?  The one time someone asks about it the response is just that
"It's an old joke" or something like that.

yer dog

Poor little maroon.  So trusting.  So naive.


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From: Richard Chilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Question about my favorite pooch
Date: 17 Sep 2000 01:04:09 -0300

"C.L. Yona" wrote:
>
>  So, after finishing SL I started to reread the series again and became
> reacquainted with Toadkiller Dog.  maybe this has been asked before, and
> maybe I missed it, but do we ever learn the origin of Toadkiller Dog's
> name?  The one time someone asks about it the response is just that
> "It's an old joke" or something like that.
>

No.  The closest we come is the Lady mentioning that there were old
terrors (old than the Dominator) that had flocked to his side and were
burried with him, and a bit more talk like that in _The Silver Spike_
where Toadkiller Dog led a pack of other old terrors.

Richard

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From: "Amy Weathers" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Out Of Print
Date: 16 Sep 2000 23:04:26 -0600

Then there are people like me that have had some of these books on hold
lists forever.   (October's Baby)

I did find all but the last four BC books at different used books stores and
all the Dread Empire that I own as well.   I just seems that no one wants to
part with that book.   I just added The Dragon Never Sleeps this week.
Shall see if it makes an appearance anytime soon.

Amy




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From: "Christopher C. Holden" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Soulcatcher
Date: 17 Sep 2000 11:51:14 -0500


> In the first book, when one of the circle goes down and 3 of Ten stand
> around watching one their number (Hanged Man?) die Crocker sees Catcher
> disolve into a mist that evelopes some soldiers.  The soldiers collapse
> lifelessly to the ground without a mark on them.
> I think that was Soulcatcher taking their souls.  She never killed any
> of the Company like that, so we never heard their voices.

That's absolutely correct.  I didn't catch that part the first time I read
the series, but it sure stuck with me the second time.  A few pages later
Croaker talks about hearing Soulcatcher talking in one of the voices of the

soldiers she enveloped in her cloud, thus clarifying that we were supposed
to think that's how a soul-catching worked.

I was disappointed by this, of course.  Until that point of the book had
imagined her catching of souls accomplished in a much more fanciful manner,

perhaps whilst frollicking about in a field of dandelions with a butterfly
catching net and much giggling.


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From: David Ainsworth <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL Dangling threads (Spoilers)
Date: 17 Sep 2000 12:14:47 -0500

At 03:28 PM 9/15/2000 -0300, Richard Chilton wrote:
>I think Tobo will either become a good guy sorcerer or die.  Er, make
>that have mommy, grandma, and great grand ma invite him to live full
>time in the spirit world (so his body dies).  If he lives, his destiny
>seems to lie with the Forgotten Shadows rather than the Black Company.

Granted.  But what is Thi Kim's "task" so to speak.  If he's part of some
legend or prophecy, one would expect him to DO something.  At the end of SL
Tobo hasn't even earned an "adult" name yet...

>The Gate was repaired.  90% of the Shadows were dead by the time Crocker
>pulled his rescue mission.  I don't think the Family was keeping
>something under control - their utter lack of respect for history seems
>to point away from that.

The Taken and the Dominator had nothing to do with containing the ancient
evil under the Plain of Fear, either... but it was still there.  And their
utter lack of respect for history suggests that they wouldn't be able to
protect any sort of older "containment" from shadow attack.  And how many
Shadows constitute 10%?  Probably more than the 16 surviving Voroshk.

And remember the Nef tried to warn Lady and Croaker and the others about
something related to Khatovar (SL pgs 186-7).

For that matter, do we really get any evidence that the Family was at all
responsible for making the flying posts?  All we know is that they have
records concerning how to control them.  (Does anyone recall the first
mention of the First Father's notebook?  I can't seem to find it right now.)
We know they make the clothing (see pg 280), but not the posts (and see pgs
250-1 for a suggestion they didn't).  And on pg 255 we're told the posts
have an easy control mechanism.  Given the Family's nature, and that they
make clothing attuned to the wearer, why wouldn't they fashion the posts the
same way if they were capable of doing so?

Another nasty thought--Kina is presumably getting her hooks into Lady before
they catch Booboo the last time.  When Kina gets offed (presumably... that
is at least the implication, although Cook makes it uncertain by writing the
chapter where Kina dies AFTER this one), Lady has a vision of her strangling
her daughter.  Given Kina's skinwalker abilities, maybe she WANTED Booboo
dead so that she could possess her body.  But Kina is offed...

On 470, though, we see a ghost of Kina in Booboo's eyes as she tries to kill
Lady.  This forces Croaker to kill her.  Given that Kina had hooks in both
these women, perhaps this was a win-win situation for her?  Is that "ghost"
enough of an essence to possess a dead body?  Is Kina depending upon Lady
and Croaker's love for their daughter to ensure her eventual restoration?

David


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From: David Ainsworth <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Soulcatcher
Date: 17 Sep 2000 12:14:46 -0500

At 02:56 PM 9/15/2000 EDT, you wrote:
>Is it my imagination (or limited memory, because this is a
spur-of-the-moment coment), or did Cook never show Soulcatcher "soul-catching"?
>
>Croaker mentions that the voices are those of the people she has killed,
but I don't recall a recent kill's voice coming back to haunt any of the
Company...that would have been an interesting scene.

In Chapter V (Harden) in the original BC, after killing Harden, 'Catcher
turns into a "cloud of darkness ten feet high and a dozen across" and
absorbs all of the other surviving soldiers.  She then turns to Croaker and
says "You didn't see a thing, did you?"  She says this in the voice of one
of the dead soldiers.  To my knowledge, this is the only soul-catching
incident in the stories, although the black cloud that Croaker shoots with
an arrow a bit later in BC was presumably 'Catcher as well.

David


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From: Richard Chilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL Dangling threads (Spoilers)
Date: 17 Sep 2000 14:57:42 -0300

David Ainsworth wrote:
>
> At 03:28 PM 9/15/2000 -0300, Richard Chilton wrote:
> >I think Tobo will either become a good guy sorcerer or die.  Er, make
> >that have mommy, grandma, and great grand ma invite him to live full
> >time in the spirit world (so his body dies).  If he lives, his destiny
> >seems to lie with the Forgotten Shadows rather than the Black Company.
>
> Granted.  But what is Thi Kim's "task" so to speak.  If he's part of some
> legend or prophecy, one would expect him to DO something.  At the end of SL
> Tobo hasn't even earned an "adult" name yet...
>

I'll tie in what I think is Tobo's destiny below.

> >The Gate was repaired.  90% of the Shadows were dead by the time Crocker
> >pulled his rescue mission.  I don't think the Family was keeping
> >something under control - their utter lack of respect for history seems
> >to point away from that.
>
> The Taken and the Dominator had nothing to do with containing the ancient
> evil under the Plain of Fear, either... but it was still there.  And their
> utter lack of respect for history suggests that they wouldn't be able to
> protect any sort of older "containment" from shadow attack.  And how many
> Shadows constitute 10%?  Probably more than the 16 surviving Voroshk.
>
> And remember the Nef tried to warn Lady and Croaker and the others about
> something related to Khatovar (SL pgs 186-7).
>
> For that matter, do we really get any evidence that the Family was at all
> responsible for making the flying posts?  All we know is that they have
> records concerning how to control them.  (Does anyone recall the first
> mention of the First Father's notebook?  I can't seem to find it right now.)

I thought one of the girls says it takes 20 years to learn how to make
them, or was that the clothing?

> We know they make the clothing (see pg 280), but not the posts (and see pgs
> 250-1 for a suggestion they didn't).  And on pg 255 we're told the posts

I think 250-1 refers to the Voroshk they captured.

> have an easy control mechanism.  Given the Family's nature, and that they
> make clothing attuned to the wearer, why wouldn't they fashion the posts the
> same way if they were capable of doing so?
>

Just guessing, but:
I think the Family knows how to make the posts - they are just two
common to be ancient artifacts left from a previous era.  They may or
may not know the principles behind what they do but they do know the
steps to follow.
Why are they attuned to their owners?  Maybe they take longer to make
than the clothing, and can be handed down.  Maybe the Family operates a
'flying broomstick pool' like some companies have moter pools - each
compound has X sticks and while a certain stick may be usually assigned
to a certain family member any member that really needed can use it.
Or may that bit about the clothing was a self serving lie.  "My magic
protection?  Um, it would be useless to you so I should keep it."  After
all, Tobo changes the attuning for most of the clothes.  I can see a lot
of work being put in to attuned them to their usually own because it
seems the better attuned the more they protect, but if the owner dies I
can see them being re-used.

As for theories, how does this sound?

When the free companies went forth one of them entered a world that had
some powerful sorcerers.  The sorcerers whiped out that company, but
learned some of the basics of the Shadow Gates as they did so.  They
then launched an invasion into some of the other worlds, becoming the
Family on one and the Shadow Masters on another.  The Forgotten Shadows
existed before the Shadow Masters inslaved that world, and Tobo's
destiny is to restore them to their nature place as great powers in
their world.
Or his destiny may be tied to the race of sorcerers that generated the
Family and the Shadow Masters.

But either way, unless Cook writes more on the subject all this is just
idle speculation.  We can speculate all we want but we just don't have
enough evidence to go further.  I surpose that someone could try to pin
him down at con, but (based on his answer to who was the third female
taken) I don't think he's really decided.

Richard

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Richard Chilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Kina lives, out-of-print Cook, Raker
Date: 17 Sep 2000 16:05:56 -0300

Bill Acuff wrote:
>
>
> The original question re. Raker was: which came first, the short story, or
> the novel? I know many writers develop full-length novels from successful
> short stories, but I suppose it can go the other way, too. Anybody know?
>
> Win, I'd bet you're right about a little more background in the Raker short
> than in the BC novel. There would have to be, otherwise the story wouldn't
> make much sense. Um, surely you're not reading BC for the first time? If so,
> boy do I envy you. Enjoy--there ain't nothing in fantasy like those first
> three novels and The Silver Spike.
>

I'm lucky enough to live near a University that has a good Sci-fi and
Fantasy collection - including a collection of the magazine that Raker
was published in.
Raker came first, but there isn't a huge difference between the chapter
in The Black Company and the short story.  The short story format
doesn't really allow for a lot of background building.  If memory serves
there is only a paragraph or two of background tacted onto the start of
the story - and only one major new fact is included.
Raker has a line that gives the size of the Black Company - I forget
what it was but beleive it to be around 100 (112 comes to mind - but I
could be wrong).

Maybe something on Raker (short story vs chapter) could be added to the
FAQ for version 0.3?

Richard

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From: Eric Herrmann <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Kina lives, out-of-print Cook, Raker
Date: 17 Sep 2000 15:13:45 -0600

> Raker came first, but there isn't a huge difference between the chapter in The
> Black Company and the short story.  The short story format doesn't really
> allow for a lot of background building.  If memory serves there is only a
> paragraph or two of background tacted onto the start of the story - and only
> one major new fact is included.
>
> Raker has a line that gives the size of the Black Company - I forget what it
> was but beleive it to be around 100 (112 comes to mind - but I could be
> wrong).

In the May 1999 archive, I compared the short story with the chapter. In
this case the short story does build more background because there aren't
several chapters of story preceding it.

The paragraph you are remembering is:

F&SF August, 1982, pg 95
"In its heyday, three centuries ago, the company was 6000 strong. The Annals
glow with the glory of those years, when our predecessors served the lords
of Hellon. Nowadays my pitiful pages emanates bleakness. We number a mere
189. Time and fate have not served us well."

--
Eric Herrmann
<[e-mail]>


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From: Igor Filippov <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Soulcatcher
Date: 18 Sep 2000 00:48:46 -0400 (EDT)

I could be wrong, I don't have the text handy, but wasn't there
an implication that Catcher got Croaker's soul (temporarily of
course...) ?
I remember the description of his feeling of getting separated from
his body when she found him laying wounded on the battlefield...

Igor

On Sun, 17 Sep 2000, Christopher C. Holden wrote:

>
> > In the first book, when one of the circle goes down and 3 of Ten stand
> > around watching one their number (Hanged Man?) die Crocker sees Catcher
> > disolve into a mist that evelopes some soldiers.  The soldiers collapse
> > lifelessly to the ground without a mark on them.
> > I think that was Soulcatcher taking their souls.  She never killed any
> > of the Company like that, so we never heard their voices.
>
> That's absolutely correct.  I didn't catch that part the first time I read
> the series, but it sure stuck with me the second time.  A few pages later
> Croaker talks about hearing Soulcatcher talking in one of the voices of the
>
> soldiers she enveloped in her cloud, thus clarifying that we were supposed
> to think that's how a soul-catching worked.
>
> I was disappointed by this, of course.  Until that point of the book had
> imagined her catching of souls accomplished in a much more fanciful manner,
>
> perhaps whilst frollicking about in a field of dandelions with a butterfly
> catching net and much giggling.
>
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) BC threads that should have been wrapped up SPoilers
Date: 19 Sep 2000 18:19:07 GMT

>I was thinking to myself. What old issues were left unresolved at the
>apparent end of tBC. Do you all remember when one of the wizards (Goblin or

>One Eye) mentioned that they didn't know what Kina was but they were pretty

>sure that the facade portrayed was not her real physical aspect. I got the

>feeling she was more of some Bad Ass left over from the plains' history that

>got shafted and imprisoned. Kind of like the thing under Old Father Tree. I

>would like to know what she really was. I don't by the goddess bit. The rest

>of the books clung too much to the belief that religion was for the
>disillusioned.

I think that the term "God" in BC is used to describe a lot more beings than
it is in our world.  To us, a God is a diety that exists outside of our normal
time and space, and has absolute control over our existence.  (Your religion
may vary).

I think in BC, it's more along the lines of the old Greek/Roman gods, who were
powerful beings that lived on our plane of existance, but could go to other
planes and who had tremendous power.

Along those lines, I think Kina was a Goddess in that she was a being of immense
power.  Obviously she wasn't a true "Goddess" in the "all-powerful being" sense
of the word, or she'd never have been captured and put to sleep.  Croaker even
speculates that Kina may have just been a very powerful monster.  Which I think
is more to the truth of what she was.

The whole concept of religion in BC, however, seems to match what we have in
our world.  It's a belief system.  Since most of us here are probably most familiar
with Christian/Catholic viewpoints, we tend to view religion as "belief in God".
 But in other parts of the world, they don't necessarily have the same concept
of "God" as Christians and Catholics do.  I'm no religion expert, but from what
I remember, Buddah is not a god.  And the religions that stem from the teachings
of Buddah are designed more around the following of these teachings rather than
the more specific "belief in Buddah."  The Nyueng Bao seem very much to reflect
the many-dietied Hindu religion of our own world (which is one of the things
that leads me to my belief that our world is one of those on the other side
of a non-working Shadowgate...but that's a different discussion altogether).
 And the people of Juniper didn't seem to believe so much in a diety as in the
preservation of the dead for passage into another life.  I don't recal reading
about a specific being that was supposed to take them there.  Then again, the
nature of the BC series makes it impossible to know everything about any group
of people.  Only what Croaker (or whatever Analyst) tells us.


SPOILERS
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
>I did like that Taglios got hammered at the end. I think I speak for a great

>majority when I say there was nothing redeeming about that city.

I think one of the reasons that we can have that impression is because it was
so foreign to Croaker and he was writing from his own impressions.  Sleepy,
in her writings, seemed to have much more respect for the city.  And obviously
Mogaba did, too, or he wouldn't have made the grand sacrifice he did at the
end (I'm still unsure what I think of that, though.  On the one hand, he had
to know he wouldn't get away.  On the other hand, there were more honorable
ways he could have chosen to get himself killed).

At any rate, Taglios was the home of everybody who lived there.  And that's
enough of a redeeming value for them.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph McGrath" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) BC threads that should have been wrapped up SPoilers
Date: 20 Sep 2000 15:20:00 -0000

 Croaker get's to be Shivetya, so he can live all the things that happened
on the plain throughout history and then he can put it all in some annalists
head to write down... Things will get wrapped up. I just want to know what's
on the other side of, "Every Shadowgate."
What's the scoop with Khatovar, why the Nef  want to warn them. It's
probably some bad ass deity that has it in for any of the lost companies.
Cook borrowed a great deal from Hindu worship and Asian worship which is
fine by me. It's a good way to educate cross culturally. Practises such as
Suttee, not spilling blood when killing, even Ganesha the elephant goddess
with her infinite compassion, (circa, "Abhu," from the Simpson's). The Kef
Sidhe strangler cult was the same thing in Old Tin Sorrows. I thought that
was one of his best, that and Sweet Silver Blues. I know he's borrowed a-lot
from Raymond Chandler and I've read everything he's written because of Cook.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 6:19 PM
SPoilers


> >I was thinking to myself. What old issues were left unresolved at the
> >apparent end of tBC. Do you all remember when one of the wizards (Goblin
or
>
> >One Eye) mentioned that they didn't know what Kina was but they were
pretty
>
> >sure that the facade portrayed was not her real physical aspect. I got
the
>
> >feeling she was more of some Bad Ass left over from the plains' history
that
>
> >got shafted and imprisoned. Kind of like the thing under Old Father Tree.
I
>
> >would like to know what she really was. I don't by the goddess bit. The
rest
>
> >of the books clung too much to the belief that religion was for the
> >disillusioned.
>
> I think that the term "God" in BC is used to describe a lot more beings
than
> it is in our world.  To us, a God is a diety that exists outside of our
normal
> time and space, and has absolute control over our existence.  (Your
religion
> may vary).
>
> I think in BC, it's more along the lines of the old Greek/Roman gods, who
were
> powerful beings that lived on our plane of existance, but could go to
other
> planes and who had tremendous power.
>
> Along those lines, I think Kina was a Goddess in that she was a being of
immense
> power.  Obviously she wasn't a true "Goddess" in the "all-powerful being"
sense
> of the word, or she'd never have been captured and put to sleep.  Croaker
even
> speculates that Kina may have just been a very powerful monster.  Which I
think
> is more to the truth of what she was.
>
> The whole concept of religion in BC, however, seems to match what we have
in
> our world.  It's a belief system.  Since most of us here are probably most
familiar
> with Christian/Catholic viewpoints, we tend to view religion as "belief in
God".
>  But in other parts of the world, they don't necessarily have the same
concept
> of "God" as Christians and Catholics do.  I'm no religion expert, but from
what
> I remember, Buddah is not a god.  And the religions that stem from the
teachings
> of Buddah are designed more around the following of these teachings rather
than
> the more specific "belief in Buddah."  The Nyueng Bao seem very much to
reflect
> the many-dietied Hindu religion of our own world (which is one of the
things
> that leads me to my belief that our world is one of those on the other
side
> of a non-working Shadowgate...but that's a different discussion
altogether).
>  And the people of Juniper didn't seem to believe so much in a diety as in
the
> preservation of the dead for passage into another life.  I don't recal
reading
> about a specific being that was supposed to take them there.  Then again,
the
> nature of the BC series makes it impossible to know everything about any
group
> of people.  Only what Croaker (or whatever Analyst) tells us.
>
>
> SPOILERS
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> >I did like that Taglios got hammered at the end. I think I speak for a
great
>
> >majority when I say there was nothing redeeming about that city.
>
> I think one of the reasons that we can have that impression is because it
was
> so foreign to Croaker and he was writing from his own impressions.
Sleepy,
> in her writings, seemed to have much more respect for the city.  And
obviously
> Mogaba did, too, or he wouldn't have made the grand sacrifice he did at
the
> end (I'm still unsure what I think of that, though.  On the one hand, he
had
> to know he wouldn't get away.  On the other hand, there were more
honorable
> ways he could have chosen to get himself killed).
>
> At any rate, Taglios was the home of everybody who lived there.  And
that's
> enough of a redeeming value for them.
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph McGrath" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 20 Sep 2000 16:11:36 -0000

Mike i have no idea how many references there are to Tulsa in all of Glenn's
books....
(I'm Living on Tulsa Time...  Clapton?)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2000 2:38 PM


> Single male, 36, gainfully employed, saw Star Wars multiple times at the
> theater. Location: Tulsa.
>
> Trivia: How many references to Tulsa are there in all of Glens books?
>
> Michael W Sweet
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Vonder Haar, Peter C." <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 20 Sep 2000 15:42:06 -0500

 Maybe you're thinking of the villain from "Conan the Barbarian" - "Tulsa
Doom."

 Pete - nyuk nyuk nyuk

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joseph McGrath [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 11:12 AM
> To: [e-mail]
> Cc: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
>
>
> Mike i have no idea how many references there are to Tulsa in
> all of Glenn's
> books....
> (I'm Living on Tulsa Time...  Clapton?)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2000 2:38 PM
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
>
>
> > Single male, 36, gainfully employed, saw Star Wars multiple
> times at the
> > theater. Location: Tulsa.
> >
> > Trivia: How many references to Tulsa are there in all of
> Glens books?
> >
> > Michael W Sweet

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joshua Peery" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 20 Sep 2000 16:46:43 -0400



> Maybe you're thinking of the villain from "Conan the Barbarian" - "Tulsa
> Doom."


hehe  but that is spelled Thulsa-Doom


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From: "Vonder Haar, Peter C." <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 20 Sep 2000 15:55:51 -0500

 Right.  Hence the "nyuk nyuk nyuk."

 Pete - More of an Akiro fan, actually

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joshua Peery [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 3:47 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
>
>
>
>
> > Maybe you're thinking of the villain from "Conan the
> Barbarian" - "Tulsa
> > Doom."
>
>
> hehe  but that is spelled Thulsa-Doom
>
>
> ==============================================================
> =========
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>

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From: "Joseph McGrath" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT: Demographics
Date: 21 Sep 2000 13:04:16 -0000

found one, Old Tin Sorrows, pg.149, 3rd, p..
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2000 2:38 PM


> Single male, 36, gainfully employed, saw Star Wars multiple times at the
> theater. Location: Tulsa.
>
> Trivia: How many references to Tulsa are there in all of Glens books?
>
> Michael W Sweet
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) BC threads that should have been wrapped up SPoilers
Date: 21 Sep 2000 14:34:56 EDT

<< >I did like that Taglios got hammered at the end. I think I speak for a
great
 majority when I say there was nothing redeeming about that city.  >>


It's funny, I'm just re-reading "Shadow Games" for the first time in a long
time (actually reading all the books all the way through), and Croaker
comments about how peaceful Taglios is, how the surrounding countryside is
pleasant and bucolic and about the only drawback is the convoluted religious
aspect.    Even Goblin says at one point, Let's just settle down here and
forget heading south.

Donna

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From: "Amy Weathers" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) questions about books just given to me
Date: 21 Sep 2000 19:37:10 -0600

Not only do I have a list of Glen Cook books with the used bookstores in my
home town, but I also make my Dad look for them for me when he travels.
Most of the time he doesnÆt find any books by Glen Cook, however this time
he brought me two.

The first is:  _The Heirs of Babylon_ 1972 Published by Signet Science
Fiction.    IÆve never even heard of this one, nor am I even sure if this is
the right Glen Cook (I donÆt guess there are too many Glen Cook writers
though!)  Any comments on this one?   It has a nuclear mushroom cloud on the
cover so IÆm taking a wild guess that its not going to be a fantasy novel,
maybe its SF?  It LOOKS stand alone, but with Cook you never know.

The second one is: _Darkwar Trilogy-1 Doomstaker_ 1985  Published by ??.  IÆ
ve seen a few references to this series, but this is the first one IÆve
seen.   It has a crazy looking Elfish person on the cover which does lend me
to believe that this is a more fantasy type novel, any quick comments on
this one too?

Thanks,

Amy




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Glenn Hoetker <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) questions about books just given to me
Date: 21 Sep 2000 21:58:44 -0400

From an earlier discussion on the list, I'd say that reaction to the Darkwa=
r
Trilogy is mixed among those who generally like GC's work.  Personally, I
love it.  More fantastic than, say, the books of the North in BC, but mostl=
y
because the heroine works intimately with the supernatural.

Happy reading.

Glenn

on 9/21/00 9:37 PM, Amy Weathers at [e-mail] wrote:

> Not only do I have a list of Glen Cook books with the used bookstores in =
my
> home town, but I also make my Dad look for them for me when he travels.
> Most of the time he doesn=92t find any books by Glen Cook, however this tim=
e
> he brought me two.
>=20
> The first is:  _The Heirs of Babylon_ 1972 Published by Signet Science
> Fiction.    I=92ve never even heard of this one, nor am I even sure if this=
 is
> the right Glen Cook (I don=92t guess there are too many Glen Cook writers
> though!)  Any comments on this one?   It has a nuclear mushroom cloud on =
the
> cover so I=92m taking a wild guess that its not going to be a fantasy novel=
,
> maybe its SF?  It LOOKS stand alone, but with Cook you never know.
>=20
> The second one is: _Darkwar Trilogy-1 Doomstaker_ 1985  Published by ??. =
 I=92
> ve seen a few references to this series, but this is the first one I=92ve
> seen.   It has a crazy looking Elfish person on the cover which does lend=
 me
> to believe that this is a more fantasy type novel, any quick comments on
> this one too?
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> Amy
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>=20


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matthew Roche <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) questions about books just given to me
Date: 21 Sep 2000 20:28:34 -0600

Amy:

    Both of these books are definitely *our* Glen Cook. _The Heirs of
Babylon_ was an early work (his first?) but is still an excellent read. The
Darkwar Trilogy is certainly different, but is also excellent.

    If you go to the excellent Glen Cook Fan Page at
http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/ you can find a (relatively) complete
bibliography of what Glen Cook has written. I used this as my primary source
when tracking down his rare out-of-print books myself.

Matthew

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2000 7:37 PM


Not only do I have a list of Glen Cook books with the used bookstores in my
home town, but I also make my Dad look for them for me when he travels.
Most of the time he doesn't find any books by Glen Cook, however this time
he brought me two.

The first is:  _The Heirs of Babylon_ 1972 Published by Signet Science
Fiction.    I've never even heard of this one, nor am I even sure if this is
the right Glen Cook (I don't guess there are too many Glen Cook writers
though!)  Any comments on this one?   It has a nuclear mushroom cloud on the
cover so I'm taking a wild guess that its not going to be a fantasy novel,
maybe its SF?  It LOOKS stand alone, but with Cook you never know.

The second one is: _Darkwar Trilogy-1 Doomstaker_ 1985  Published by ??.  I'
ve seen a few references to this series, but this is the first one I've
seen.   It has a crazy looking Elfish person on the cover which does lend me
to believe that this is a more fantasy type novel, any quick comments on
this one too?

Thanks,

Amy




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David George" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) questions about books just given to me
Date: 21 Sep 2000 21:20:13 -0500

Yes, it is the right Glen Cook.  That is, unless I miss my guess, Glen's
First Novel.  As opposed to the earlier work published under a pseudonym.  I
had it laying around for a few years before I went back and read it.  It is
definitely GC and I enjoyed it much.  Not by comparison to later works (he
gets better) but to see how far back the elements of the GC style and theme
go.  It is "standalone."

As for the Darkwar series, don't be mislead by the covers, which are among
the worst from a "match to storyline" standpoint.  The characters don't
really look like elves, but hey, Elves Sell.  It is SF more than fantasy and
it is quite good, in my opinion.  An opinion, in this case, not shared by
everyone on this list.  You may or may not want to wait until the other two
books are in your hands.  The Darkwar "trilogy" is actually one big book
chopped into three small books because Trilogies Also Sell.  Especially with
Elves.

I read them as they were published and they came out pretty quickly, maybe
one every 3-6 months.  I think they all went to the publisher in one big
book.  It's been awhile, so forgive my memory lapses if I got that wrong.

DG


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2000 8:37 PM


> Not only do I have a list of Glen Cook books with the used bookstores in
my
> home town, but I also make my Dad look for them for me when he travels.
> Most of the time he doesn't find any books by Glen Cook, however this time
> he brought me two.
>
> The first is:  _The Heirs of Babylon_ 1972 Published by Signet Science
> Fiction.    I've never even heard of this one, nor am I even sure if this
is
> the right Glen Cook (I don't guess there are too many Glen Cook writers
> though!)  Any comments on this one?   It has a nuclear mushroom cloud on
the
> cover so I'm taking a wild guess that its not going to be a fantasy novel,
> maybe its SF?  It LOOKS stand alone, but with Cook you never know.
>
> The second one is: _Darkwar Trilogy-1 Doomstaker_ 1985  Published by ??.
I'
> ve seen a few references to this series, but this is the first one I've
> seen.   It has a crazy looking Elfish person on the cover which does lend
me
> to believe that this is a more fantasy type novel, any quick comments on
> this one too?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Amy
>
>
>
>
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From: Lee Childs <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Toadkiller Dog
Date: 21 Sep 2000 21:01:30 -0700

Not much was said about Toadkiller Dog's name and it's origin.

THE WHITE ROSE page 73
"Everything he did made me uncomfortable.  Even his damned dog made me
uncomfortable, and it did nothing but sleep."
"[Croaker said,] 'Toadkiller Dog.  What kind of name is that?'"
"[Tracker said,] 'Oh, it's an old joke.  From when we were both a lot
younger.  He took a shine to it.  Insists on it now.'"


C.L. Yona wrote:

>  So, after finishing SL I started to reread the series again and became
> reacquainted with Toadkiller Dog.  maybe this has been asked before, and
> maybe I missed it, but do we ever learn the origin of Toadkiller Dog's
> name?  The one time someone asks about it the response is just that
> "It's an old joke" or something like that.
>
> yer dog
>
> Poor little maroon.  So trusting.  So naive.
>
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From: Eric Herrmann <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) October Book Club
Date: 26 Sep 2000 08:30:57 -0600

Just a reminder that our first Book Club will start Monday, October 9th.
The book to discuss will be "The Dragon Never Sleeps".

That gives you two weeks to buy, borrow, or steal a copy and read it.
See, <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Links4.html>
Or if you already own it to read it again.

--
Eric Herrmann
<[e-mail]>
<[e-mail]>


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From: "Chad Wicker" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Tonk?
Date: 26 Sep 2000 09:36:56 -0500

This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to
consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to
properly handle MIME multipart messages.

--=_B1E95584.54355A7D
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I was wondering if Tonk was a GC creation or was it just included in the =
book.  I am reading a book by another author and have seen a reference to =
this card game.  maybe they read Cook too.

Chad C. Wicker

--=_B1E95584.54355A7D
Content-Type: text/html
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="TEXT.htm"

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META content="MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff
style="FONT: 10pt Arial; MARGIN-LEFT: 2px; MARGIN-TOP: 2px">
<DIV>I was wondering if Tonk was a GC creation or was it just included in the
book.  I am reading a book by another author and have seen a reference to
this card game.  maybe they read Cook too.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Chad C. Wicker</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: tslefman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Tonk?
Date: 26 Sep 2000 09:47:05 +0000

Chad Wicker wrote:
>
>          Part 1.1   Name: TEXT.htm
>                     Type: Hypertext Markup Language (text/html)
Tonk is a card game that existed before Cook's books.  My stepdad's
uncle and his friends played it years ago.  He's in his 70's.  I still
haven't asked him the rules, though.

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Tonk?
Date: 26 Sep 2000 13:07:08 -0400

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C027DC.38E08320
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"

I have the rules somewhere... I cant remember where I found them... I wanna
say on a cook fan page though.
if you do a search on downloads.com you can actually find a shareware
version of tonk out there.  it is pretty decent.

playing the game is simple.. it is very similar to rummy.

nick



Nicholas Anderson
Computer Support Development Coordinator
Buffalo State College
[e-mail]
http://www.buffalostate.edu/~nick <http://www.buffalostate.edu/~nick>
I'm scratching a Picture on the Wall
Of a man called nothing at all
Why are they keeping me here
Please let me go.
  -- Jeff Waters

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 10:37 AM


I was wondering if Tonk was a GC creation or was it just included in the
book.  I am reading a book by another author and have seen a reference to
this card game.  maybe they read Cook too.

Chad C. Wicker


------_=_NextPart_001_01C027DC.38E08320
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">


<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style="MARGIN-TOP: 2px; FONT: 10pt Arial; MARGIN-LEFT: 2px"
bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=803120017-26092000>I have the rules somewhere... I cant
remember where I found them... I wanna say on a cook fan page
though.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=803120017-26092000>if you do a search on downloads.com you can
actually find a shareware version of tonk out there.  it is pretty
decent.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=803120017-26092000></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=803120017-26092000>playing the game is simple.. it is very
similar to rummy.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=803120017-26092000></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=803120017-26092000>nick</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=803120017-26092000></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P>----------------------------------- <BR>Nicholas Anderson <BR>Computer
Support Development Coordinator <BR>Buffalo State College
<BR>[e-mail] <BR><A target=_blank
href="http://www.buffalostate.edu/~nick">http://www.buffalostate.edu/~nick</A>
<BR>----------------------------------- <BR><FONT face="Courier New">I'm
scratching a Picture on the Wall</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Courier New">Of a man
called nothing at all</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Courier New">Why are they keeping
me here</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Courier New">Please let me go.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Courier New">  -- Jeff Waters</FONT> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT
  face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Chad Wicker
  [mailto:[e-mail]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 26, 2000
  10:37 AM<BR><B>To:</B> [e-mail]<BR><B>Subject:</B>
  (glencook-fans) Tonk?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>I was wondering if Tonk was a GC creation or was it just included in the
  book.  I am reading a book by another author and have seen a reference to
  this card game.  maybe they read Cook too.</DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>Chad C. Wicker</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C027DC.38E08320--

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Tonk?
Date: 26 Sep 2000 13:10:35 EDT

In a message dated 9/26/00 11:59:27 AM Central Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< if you do a search on downloads.com you can actually find a shareware
 version of tonk out there.  it is pretty decent. >>

It's located at:

http://www.blackgames.net/tonk.htm

It's not *exactly* the version played by the Black Company, but the style is
the same... It's a good way to determine if you'll like the game...

The main differences I find are:

No automatic downing on first deal <16 or >48
Bets always pay 1-1
You must spread *before* drawing

Other than that, it's pretty faithful...

Oh yeah, btw.. Hi!  I'm a new member to the list :)  A recent addict of the
Black Company novels :)

Danny Potts
[e-mail]

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Tonk?
Date: 26 Sep 2000 13:42:14 EDT

In a message dated 9/26/00 12:11:43 PM Central Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

I forgot one thing...

<< The main differences I find are:

 No automatic downing on first deal <16 or >48
 Bets always pay 1-1
 You must spread *before* drawing  >>

It also doesn't allow you to add on to existing runs.

Danny Potts
[e-mail]

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From: "PrimalChrome" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Tonk?
Date: 27 Sep 2000 19:57:03 -0500

I used to play Tonk in highschool....the rules we went by were exactly like
what the Company played....  Ahhh, the memories.

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of
[e-mail]
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 12:42 PM


In a message dated 9/26/00 12:11:43 PM Central Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

I forgot one thing...

<< The main differences I find are:

 No automatic downing on first deal <16 or >48
 Bets always pay 1-1
 You must spread *before* drawing  >>

It also doesn't allow you to add on to existing runs.

Danny Potts
[e-mail]

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