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fractint-digest      Wednesday, September 9 1998      Volume 01 : Number 293




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 23:12:30 -0500
From: "Paul N. Lee" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) re: more pars (Thanks Kathy)

Angela Wilczynski wrote:
>
> Paul....re: the reset to a longer wrap length...did that....
> even tested it by sending an email to my other isp....worked
> ....but not for the list.
>

Sorry, forgot to tell you that this parameter only sets the wrap length
for lines that are not continuous characters.  It doesn't cause a string
of characters to automatically be broken at that length.

Setting a specified line length will also cause a small tiny arrow to
appear at the top of the Text area in the Message Composer window.  You
should use this arrow as the point to start a new line.  If you go past
that length, then any preceding spaces in front of a long string of
characters will become one line and the string of characters will be the
second line (which is what is happening to you).

By setting a value of say 68, you can see when to break the parameters
in the PAR.

P.N.L.
- -------------------------------------------------
     Why do most folks hate cynics so much?
       Because we're almost always right.
- -------------------------------------------------
http://www.fractalus.com/cgi-bin/theway?ring=fractals&id=43&go

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 00:54:57 -0400
From: "Phil DiGiorgi" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Contest Web Site

>Ladies and Gentlemen,
>I present for your viewing pleasure,
>the Fractal Art '98 Contest entries:
>
>    http://www.fractalus.com/contest98/entries.htm
>
>Sorry it has taken so long, there were so many entries and so many pages to
>produce.
>
>Please don't all crowd the server at once. :-)
>
>Damien M. Jones   \\
>[e-mail]  \\  Fractalus Galleries & Info:
>                    \\  http://www.fractalus.com/



Outstanding!   Mind-boggling!   This is going to be tough...


  Phil D.


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 23:14:03 -0600
From: Wayne Kiely <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Contest Web Site

Damien,

At 19:40 8/09/98 -0500, you wrote: (in part)

>Sorry it has taken so long, there were so many entries and so many pages to
>produce.

No need to apolagise.  I (and I'm sure that can be read as WE) are all very
gratefull for your time and fabulous effort.  It is much appreciated.

Regards,

Wayne


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 05:37:39 -0400
From: davides <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Contest Web Site

At 07:40 PM 9/8/1998 -0500, you wrote:
>Ladies and Gentlemen,
>I present for your viewing pleasure,
>the Fractal Art '98 Contest entries:
>
>    http://www.fractalus.com/contest98/entries.htm
>
>Sorry it has taken so long, there were so many entries and so many pages to
>produce.

An outstanding job, and the images...this will take some time. How can one
choose among so many superlative images? Wow!!







[e-mail]
[e-mail]
Back up my hard drive?
How do I put it in reverse?

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:33:58 +0200
From: Joe Pearson <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (fractint) Contest Web Site

>Ladies and Gentlemen,
>I present for your viewing pleasure,

very much so

>the Fractal Art '98 Contest entries:
>
>Sorry it has taken so long, there were so many entries and so many pages to
>produce.

like everyone has said, it's much appreciated


One question: in the quotes category, are there quotes for each one?
Otherwise how do we vote for the best interpretation?
Joe
>

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 07:50:19 -0500
From: Janet Preslar <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Contest Web Site

Joe Pearson wrote:

> One question: in the quotes category, are there quotes for each one?
> Otherwise how do we vote for the best interpretation?
> Joe

Click on each one to see the full-size image AND the quote.

Janet


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 09:23:18 -0400
From: Diosnel Herrnsdorf <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Contest Web Site

Damien M. Jones wrote:

> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> I present for your viewing pleasure,
> the Fractal Art '98 Contest entries:

It's been a real pleasure.
I have made my choices and would like to vote, but I'm not so sure as to how to
fill out the form. Can you help me? I don't know how to refer to the image I
selected.
Thanks and regards,
Diosnel
[e-mail]


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:25:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: [e-mail] (Kragen)
Subject: RE: (fractint) Posting fractal images on the web

On Mon, 7 Sep 1998, Dave wrote:
> > Usually, yes.  You could set your quality thresholds on your jpegger
> > so
> > high that the JPEG wasn't any smaller than the .gif, and you could set
> > them so low that the resulting JPEG was a 200th of the size of the
> > .gif
> > but usually terrible-looking, or you could set them somewhere in
> > between.
>
> .. which raises the question: what thresholds are suitable? Has anyone
> tried and have got ball-park figures, or values they use as a
> rule-of-thumb? May be an idea to publish these as guidelines for
> beginners!

The thresholds which are suitable depend on your jpeg generator.

> > Kragen (who is copying a bunch of tapes at work, each of which
> > contains
> >     several big images.  like two-hundred-megabyte images.)
> ... perhaps you should have stored your images in .jpg form!!! :-)

Nope -- they need to be analyzed algorithmically, and jpeg throws in
all kinds of artifacts that aren't visible to the eye, but can present
problems for other things you might want to do with images.  (Hearsay.)

Also, I think JPEG only specifies how to store RGB images, with three
'bands'.  These are SEBASS images, which, I believe, have many more
than three bands.

Kragen

- --
<[e-mail]>       Kragen Sitaker     <http://www.pobox.com/~kragen/>
I don't do .INI, .BAT, .DLL or .SYS files. I don't assign apps to files. I
don't configure peripherals or networks before using them. I have a computer
to do all that. I have a Macintosh, not a hobby. -- Fritz Anderson


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:24:49 -0400
From: Lee Skinner <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Contest Web S

   From some of the comments I'm seeing on this list, it's obvious to me
that some viewers are going to vote based strictly on seeing the thumbnai=
ls
- - and that's too bad, but understandable.  Most of us don't have T1 lines=
,
and the window for downloading such a large number of images is way too
short for many of us that won't be able to find the time to download 265
images. And its too bad that no comprimise is open for discussion for tho=
se
that want to display their images on their web pages.

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:13:13 +0100
From: Dave <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (fractint) Contest Web S

>    From some of the comments I'm seeing on this list, it's obvious to
> me
> that some viewers are going to vote based strictly on seeing the
> thumbnails
> - and that's too bad, but understandable.  Most of us don't have T1
> lines,
> and the window for downloading such a large number of images is way
> too
> short for many of us that won't be able to find the time to download
> 265
> images. And its too bad that no comprimise is open for discussion for
> those
> that want to display their images on their web pages.
>
Well... I tried to open a forum for ideas about balancing speed of
downloading, number of images, JPEG v GIF, quality of images etc. but it
turned a bit heated (I think I may have caused some if it in the first
place!! - sorry, people) and then defused itself after a while.

It does seem that someone viewing one page full of thumbs are going to
view those that appear interesting at that size, which is a pity when we
all know that intricate detail in a large picture could merge together
into one solid area of colour in a thumbnail - and thus is in danger of
being overlooked.

Is it possible to agree on a format for entry submission? eg: all images
must be 640x480, max of 256 colours etc? I know that you may not get the
effect of graduated colour shading, but at least this way images can be
downloaded quickly.

(this, coming from someone who hasn't managed to get an image of more
than 256 colours on his video card yet!! Curse these ax-dx values...)

Just a thought...

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 08:38:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ken Childress <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Contest Web S

>
> >
> Well... I tried to open a forum for ideas about balancing speed of
> downloading, number of images, JPEG v GIF, quality of images etc. but it
> turned a bit heated (I think I may have caused some if it in the first
> place!! - sorry, people) and then defused itself after a while.

I'm not sure the best answer here, but I'd like to suggest an
alternative.  The contest web pages could be put in ZIP file(s) for
downloading and viewing on an individual's system at their leisure.
Unless the HTML for the pages is written with absolute addresses,
downloading and view should be possible on any system.

> It does seem that someone viewing one page full of thumbs are going to
> view those that appear interesting at that size, which is a pity when we
> all know that intricate detail in a large picture could merge together
> into one solid area of colour in a thumbnail - and thus is in danger of
> being overlooked.

Conversely, viewing the thumbnails can allow one to skip those images
that are clearly not interesting to the individual.  It is prudent to
view all images at the larger size to ensure that details aren't
overlooked.  However, a page of thumbnails puts like images together for
sort of a "global" comparison.

I think my suggestion above might help solve this problem.  To view all
images, one must effectively download everything, so the ability to
download all the relevant pages at one time would solve the problem,
plus give the viewing the ability to go back and view offline as often
as is needed.  Some, including myself, are going to do this anyway, so
why not make it easy?

> Is it possible to agree on a format for entry submission? eg: all images
> must be 640x480, max of 256 colours etc? I know that you may not get the
> effect of graduated colour shading, but at least this way images can be
> downloaded quickly.

With the number of fractal programs that generate true color images,
plus the ability to post process fractint images, limiting to 256 colors
would be quite ludicrous, IMO.  Some, due to system limitations or
technical issues might be limited to 256 colors (like me at my work
system  :-( ), but I think that number is in the minority.


Later,


Ken...





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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 11:25:07 -0500
From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Contest Web S

Lee,

 -    From some of the comments I'm seeing on this list, it's obvious to me
 - that some viewers are going to vote based strictly on seeing the thumbnails

If they do, they will be ignoring the clear requests on the contest web
site that they not vote this way.  We can't enforce this request (easily)
so all we can do is ask that people view each image in full before making
their votes.

 - And its too bad that no comprimise is open for discussion for those that
 - want to display their images on their web pages.

Thank you for suggesting a compromise.  (You were suggesting one, weren't
you? :)  The problem is that people want to be able to display their
images, perhaps even have committed to being able to display them.  Suppose
after the 19th, we allow those who wish to to display their contest images,
yet extend the voting another week or two?  Does anyone have some thoughts
on this, pro or con?

Damien M. Jones   \\
[e-mail]  \\  Fractalus Galleries & Info:
                    \\  http://www.fractalus.com/

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 11:20:32 -0500
From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (fractint) Posting fractal images on the web

Kragen,

 - > .. which raises the question: what thresholds are suitable?
 -
 - The thresholds which are suitable depend on your jpeg generator.

Very much so, but a lot of JPEG software presents a slider with a range of
0 to 100 for the quality/compression.  Generally only 1/5 of this range, at
one end, is actually useful.  You will have to experiment to find out which
end it is, since there is no consistent convention for this feature.
Certain other software will give you very limited choices indeed, such as
"Good, Fair, Poor" etc.  For this, you're completely on your own... :-)

 - Nope -- they need to be analyzed algorithmically, and jpeg throws in
 - all kinds of artifacts that aren't visible to the eye, but can present
 - problems for other things you might want to do with images.  (Hearsay.)

If you intend to view or print images (and for printing, ultimately you
plan to view them) then JPEG artifacts are not a problem.  For any other
sort of statistical analysis, it makes no sense to taint your data by
saving it in JPEG form.

 - Also, I think JPEG only specifies how to store RGB images, with three
 - 'bands'.  These are SEBASS images, which, I believe, have many more
 - than three bands.

Actually, JPEG doesn't normally use RGB, it uses YCbCr, where brightness is
along a single axis and two color axes are perpendicular to it.  There are
reasons for this, and they're actually quite sensible. :-)  You probably
COULD create a custom flavor of JPEG which stored a multi-spectral image
using DCT compression, but you'd have to write custom software to view it,
too. :-)

Damien M. Jones   \\
[e-mail]  \\  Fractalus Galleries & Info:
                    \\  http://www.fractalus.com/

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 11:13:15 -0500
From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Contest Web Site

Diosnel,

 - I have made my choices and would like to vote, but I'm not so sure as
 - to how to fill out the form. Can you help me? I don't know how to refer
 - to the image I selected.

Use the entry number which appears in the browser window title bar for the
image.  I'll re-word the voting instructions to make this clearer.

Damien M. Jones   \\
[e-mail]  \\  Fractalus Galleries & Info:
                    \\  http://www.fractalus.com/

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:43:52 -0700
From: "ursine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Contest Web S

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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>With the number of fractal programs that generate true color images,
>plus the ability to post process fractint images, limiting to 256 colors
>would be quite ludicrous, IMO.

What programs are you talking about?  It seems Fractint's preferential
treatment of outdated hardware limits most users I've ever asked about this
subject to 256 colors, including me.  Winfract is no better, limiting all
images to a max of 256.

Thanks!


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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:51:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: [e-mail] (Kragen)
Subject: RE: (fractint) Posting fractal images on the web

On Wed, 9 Sep 1998, Damien M. Jones wrote:
>  - Nope -- they need to be analyzed algorithmically, and jpeg throws in
>  - all kinds of artifacts that aren't visible to the eye, but can present
>  - problems for other things you might want to do with images.  (Hearsay.)
>
> If you intend to view or print images (and for printing, ultimately you
> plan to view them) then JPEG artifacts are not a problem.  For any other
> sort of statistical analysis, it makes no sense to taint your data by
> saving it in JPEG form.

That's sort of what I said.  :)

BTW, the analysis isn't really statistical -- you can do all sorts of
interesting things with multispectral and hyperspectral images that are
in no way statistical.  (I assume you know this, because you know the
word "multispectral". :))

>  - Also, I think JPEG only specifies how to store RGB images, with three
>  - 'bands'.  These are SEBASS images, which, I believe, have many more
>  - than three bands.
>
> Actually, JPEG doesn't normally use RGB, it uses YCbCr, where brightness is
> along a single axis and two color axes are perpendicular to it.  There are
> reasons for this, and they're actually quite sensible. :-)

Well, it's because human eyes are much more sensitive to brightness
variations than color variations, right?

>  You probably
> COULD create a custom flavor of JPEG which stored a multi-spectral image
> using DCT compression, but you'd have to write custom software to view it,
> too. :-)

And, as you pointed out, it wouldn't make much sense.  After all, if
you just wanted to *view* the image, you'd probably want to cut it down
to grayscale or RGB first, anyway.

Kragen

- --
<[e-mail]>       Kragen Sitaker     <http://www.pobox.com/~kragen/>
I don't do .INI, .BAT, .DLL or .SYS files. I don't assign apps to files. I
don't configure peripherals or networks before using them. I have a computer
to do all that. I have a Macintosh, not a hobby. -- Fritz Anderson


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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:52:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ken Childress <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Contest Web S

>
> >With the number of fractal programs that generate true color images,
> >plus the ability to post process fractint images, limiting to 256 colors
> >would be quite ludicrous, IMO.
>
> What programs are you talking about?  It seems Fractint's preferential
> treatment of outdated hardware limits most users I've ever asked about this
> subject to 256 colors, including me.  Winfract is no better, limiting all
> images to a max of 256.

UltraFractal, Tierazon2, Flarium24, Dreamer, etc.

Don't know how to use them very well, but I've seen some rather
impressive images from the masters on the list that have figured out
these programs.

I expect Fractint will become 24 bit and support Windows at some point
in the future, sooner rather than later I hope.  :-)

I suspect that what is lacking is someone with the expertise to
volunteer time to help out, though that is purely speculation on my
part.


Ken...




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Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 11:48:38 -0500
From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Contest Web S

Ken,

 - I'm not sure the best answer here, but I'd like to suggest an
 - alternative.  The contest web pages could be put in ZIP file(s) for
 - downloading and viewing on an individual's system at their leisure.

You mean, just like the contest web site *says* they're going to be? :-)
And as the rules have indicated was the plan right from the beginning? :-)

There will be downloadable ZIPs!  I need to take care of some minor
corrections first, that entrants have sent me now that the bulk of the site
is up.

Damien M. Jones   \\
[e-mail]  \\  Fractalus Galleries & Info:
                    \\  http://www.fractalus.com/

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Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 11:44:36 -0500
From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (fractint) Contest Web S

Dave,

 - It does seem that someone viewing one page full of thumbs are going to
 - view those that appear interesting at that size...
 [snipped]
 - Is it possible to agree on a format for entry submission? eg: all images
 - must be 640x480, max of 256 colours etc?

Um, did you visit the contest web site?  The rules very much set down a
particular size for submissions (although a few people submitted larger
images anyway, and I didn't catch all of them before putting up the contest
site).

I included thumbnails for two reasons.  First, so that it is easier to keep
track of where you are if you have to visit the site several times.
Second, so that when looking back through images for voting, you can
quickly find the image you're looking for.

Damien M. Jones   \\
[e-mail]  \\  Fractalus Galleries & Info:
                    \\  http://www.fractalus.com/

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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:36:58 -0700
From: "Mike and Linda Allison" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Re: [fractal-art] Contest Web Site

Good Grief!  How can we possibly chose?  This is going to take some
effort . . .

You did a terrific job guys, and a BIG pat on the back for Damien!
Thanks!

I did have a couple of comments:

Best Portrayal of an Emotion:  I'm not certain what "emotion" is
represented by some of the fractals.  Is there more info on these
somewhere, or was that info just left out by the contestants?

Also, the voting:  I agree that the comments from the viewers will be
one of the advantages of the contest.  But I'm really sorry that we will
only comment on those images that we vote for.  My comments will be
something like, "Best  Fractint Fractal I've ever seen."  On the people
I don't vote for, however, I may have some comments on how I would have
framed the image or written the colormap.

Regardless, the contest is a great success, and I will be spending many
hours enjoying the show!

Linda


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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:59:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ken Childress <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Contest Web S

>
> Ken,
>
>  - I'm not sure the best answer here, but I'd like to suggest an
>  - alternative.  The contest web pages could be put in ZIP file(s) for
>  - downloading and viewing on an individual's system at their leisure.
>
> You mean, just like the contest web site *says* they're going to be? :-)
> And as the rules have indicated was the plan right from the beginning? :-)

Exactly.  :-)

Actually, it wasn't clear to me if what was downloadable was going to be
a mirror of the contest pages, or par files so that people could generate
the images themselves, or both.

> There will be downloadable ZIPs!  I need to take care of some minor
> corrections first, that entrants have sent me now that the bulk of the site
> is up.

I apologize for any confusion on my part.


Ken....






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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:09:42 -0700
From: "Faye Williams" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (fractint) Contest Web S

Lee,
- -    From some of the comments I'm seeing on this list, it's obvious to me
- - that some viewers are going to vote based strictly on seeing the
thumbnails

With the huge number of entries entered this is
very true.  Another thing that I noticed is that some
of the images don't seem to "fit in" to the categories they are entered
into.  I hope everyone
votes for the best image "based on the category".


Faye

"Logic, like whiskey, loses its beneficial effect when taken in too large
quantities."
[e-mail]
http://www.sb.net/arkangel/


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Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 12:12:25 -0500
From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Contest Web S

Ursine,

 - What programs are you talking about?  It seems Fractint's preferential
 - treatment of outdated hardware limits most users I've ever asked about this
 - subject to 256 colors, including me.  Winfract is no better, limiting all
 - images to a max of 256.

FractInt is fundamentally a palette-based generator.  Producing images in
true color modes is quite a bit different.  FractInt is due to get true
color support soon; you can also get it now in TieraZon, Flarium, TrueMand,
Ultra Fractal 2, Dreamer... quite a few non-FractInt programs have this
capability.  Many of them run in Windows, too (rather than a "DOS box").

Damien M. Jones   \\
[e-mail]  \\  Fractalus Galleries & Info:
                    \\  http://www.fractalus.com/

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Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 12:17:13 -0500
From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (fractint) Posting fractal images on the web

Kragen,

 - BTW, the analysis isn't really statistical -- you can do all sorts of
 - interesting things with multispectral and hyperspectral images that are
 - in no way statistical.  (I assume you know this, because you know the
 - word "multispectral". :))

Actually, I've never had the opportunity to work with multispectral images,
or contemplate the fun that can be had with them.

 - Well, it's because human eyes are much more sensitive to brightness
 - variations than color variations, right?

Yes.  Separating color from brightness allows the color resolution to be
reduced, which is the 4:2:2 subsampling commonly used by default in JPEG.
(My JPEG vs. PNG page talks about this.)

Damien M. Jones   \\
[e-mail]  \\  Fractalus Galleries & Info:
                    \\  http://www.fractalus.com/

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Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 13:30:07 -0400
From: Gedeon Peteri <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Re; contest web site

I do not see the need for any "compromise" with regard to permission to
post entries to the entrants' home pages at a specific time before
voting ends. This is what the rules say about eligibility requirements:

> We'd like for you to submit images created specifically
> for this contest. Images which have previously had their
> parameters posted, or which have been displayed on the
> artist's web page, are not eligible.
>
There is no reference here to images being disqualified on account of
their appearing on home pages *after* submission but before the voting
is concluded. Indeed the word 'previously' lacks any specific reference,
thus it must be construed as referring *only* to the time before
submission. The tense employed in the second sentence quoted above
supports this view. Consequently it is hard to escape the conclusion
that according to the published rules of this contest everybody is free
to post their entries to their web pages *now* if they so desire. As for
myself, I do not propose to do so, but I am certainly opposed to any
consensus which would compel one to withhold posting images until an
extended voting period expires.

Gedeon
- --
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Fractals: http://www.geocities.com/~gedeonp/index.html
Member Infinite Fractal Loop
Last updated: July 12, 1998
Photography: http://members.xoom.com/gedeonp/index.html
Last updated: July 20, 1998
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End of fractint-digest V1 #293
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