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fractint-digest        Wednesday, July 15 1998        Volume 01 : Number 259




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:22:11 +0200
From: "Dean-Christian Strik" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Re:  Contest

Wizzle wrote:


:I think if your idea about bundling a fractint par file for those with slow
:modems were implemented, much of the download problem would be resolved.
Maybe
:Damien would be kind enough to zip up the remaining gifs/jpgs as well.

Zipping gif and especially jpeg files isn't useful. It's not very likely the
file size shrinks by more than one percent.

Christian





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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:29:05 +0200
From: "Dean-Christian Strik" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Contest

Pete wrote:


:If we decide to post the images for download, I suggest we use the PNG
:format rather than the JPG format.  JPG is too lossy and it makes the images
:look grainy.  PNG isn't lossy at all, and it provides far better compression
:over GIF, and for images such as fractals or other computer generated art,
:GIF (which is PNG's grandfather) is superior to JPG.  JPG is designed for
:photographs and 'real' images.  PNG is designed to replace GIF, so I think
:it is definitely the way to go.


I agree. If, of course, the is enough software support for this format (I
guess so - it is supported by Paint Shop Pro 4).

Christian





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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:53:23 -0500
From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Re:  Contest

Christian,

 - Zipping gif and especially jpeg files isn't useful. It's not very likely
 - the file size shrinks by more than one percent.

In this case, ZIPping files serves another purpose besides compression: it
allows you to download many files as a single block, without having to
manually visit each page.

Damien M. Jones   \\
[e-mail]  \\  http://www.icd.com/tsd/ (temporary sanity designs)
                    \\  http://www.fractalus.com/ (fractals are my hobby)

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:17:03 -0500
From: "Paul N. Lee" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) screen saver + raytracing

Andrej Lajovic wrote:
>
> Another thing:  Some time ago I asked you for the raw2pov converter.
> Well, actually I still don't have it, .......
>

You should be able to get RAW2POV at the following:

    http://shell3.ba.best.com/~beale/gforge/


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       Because we're almost always right.
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:04:34 -0500
From: "Paul N. Lee" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Re: format

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> Can anybody supply me with the palette encoding in the
> colors= statement or the format/meaning of stuff in the
> .PAR file in general?
>

Actually, almost all of the information you could want is located in the
207 page FRACTINT.DOC file that is produced from running FractInt with
the MAKEDOC= parameter.

P.N.L.
- -------------------------------------------------
     Why do most folks hate cynics so much?
       Because we're almost always right.
- -------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:10:40 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Contest(2 cents worth)

Grand Poo Bah II writes,

>  - For the present, Fractint is quite satisfactory to me....however, this
>   - IS the Fractint listserver, and I feel the contest should be for
>   - Fractint produced images.
>   - ...
>   - Or else maybe just move the whole contest to the Fractal Art list!
>
>  Done! :-)

how do I subscribe to this list?  I can't find it on majordomo lists.
Thanks,
Luke

http://members.xoom.com/lukeplant/


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:05:49 -0600
From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Contest(2 cents worth)

Jim wrote:

> however, this IS the Fractint listserver, and I feel the contest should
> be for Fractint produced images.

FWIW, the charter for this list states that Fractint discussion is welcome, but
that any fractal topics are also welcome, including discussion involving other
programs. I have no problem with the contest including other fractal programs.

However, since fractal-art is quiet and this list has quite a bit of traffic, I also
think it is fine that fractal-art support a lot of the context message traffic. I
personally subscribe to both lists.

Tim

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 17:22:00 +1200
From: "Morgan L. Owens" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Chbyshev.zip v1.0 (with PARs) Part I of XIII

As I said in the past, I have been working on a collection of formulae,
and hoped to eventually make them available for full distribution as
Chbyshev.zip.

Pars using some of the formulae have already been posted over the past
few months, and finally I feel confident that what I have is worth
labelling as Chbyshev.zip version 1.0, and making it available for
public distribution.

This project would not have been possible without my trusty copy of PFE
and the beta-test team (you know who you are!), who got sneak previews
of the formula sets in its development stages and offered advice and
kicks up the backside when I started dragging the chain; I would like to
offer an especial thanks to Gedeon, whose uncounted comments, bug
reports, and pars amounted to virtual co-authorship!

Now there are at present 3000 formulae in the complete distribution, and
future versions may include even more. So it doesn't seem like a good
idea to swamp the list with the whole lot.

So what I've arranged is this: over the next two weeks I will be posting
the pars from the Chbyshev.zip distribution, with the formulae needed to
make them run. To obtain the complete set of formuale, Les and Gedeon
have both offered space on their web pages, respectively at
http://www.geocities.com/~gedeonp/index.html
and
http://www.homeusers.prestel.co.uk/crosstrees/fractasi.htm
or of course by emailing me (not the list).

Have fun, and if you have ideas for incorporation into v2 ...

Morgan L. Owens

Working3  {
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=chby9.frm formulaname=uc03-09
  function=log passes=t center-mag=-0.637998/-0.447214/1.572327
  params=0.1/0 float=y maxiter=1023 inside=255
  colors=000321652000<15>ypM<4>yk6xj2vk3tl4rm6<4>00z<3>JcZzmSTxLRyMOzO<52>\
  121000000<158>000
  }

Mercury_Pie        {
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=chby1.frm formulaname=ca06-01
  center-mag=0/0/1/1/-135 params=0.5/0/0.5/0 float=y
  maxiter=1023 inside=255 outside=atan
  colors=000000021<14>0cb<15>zzy<15>0cb<14>032000200<13>`00c00d43<13>zzy<1\
  5>c00<14>300000020<14>0c03d2<14>zzy<15>0c0<14>030000001<14>00b<15>zzy<15\
  >00b<14>002
  }

Moire_Mask         { ; Darth Vader? Hah!
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=chby8.frm formulaname=ca10-08
  center-mag=-0.00207363/-0.00207363/1.572327/1/45 params=0.5/0/1/0
  float=y maxiter=1023 inside=255 potential=255/600/0
  colors=000zzz<47>5zz4yy4yy<77>0Wy0Vx0Vx0Vw0Uw<121>000
  }

Mandibular         { ; Some sort of alien ant
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=chby5.frm formulaname=Ca06-05
  center-mag=-0.86401970289288000/+1.33371208211143600/5133.734
  params=-1050/0/1e-006/0 float=y maxiter=1023 inside=255
  colors=000E2HI2LL3PO3TR4WU4ZW4aY5d_5e`5ga5ha5ib5ia5ia5h`5g_5eY5dW4aU4ZR4\
  W<2>I2LE2HB1D719304000<2>IEEOJJUNNZRRcVVhZZlaapddsgguiixjjyllzllzmmzllyl\
  lxjjuiisggpddlaa<2>ZRRUNNOJJ<2>644611<2>O44U55Z66c77h88l99pAAsBBuBBxBByC\
  CzCCzCC<2>xBBuBBsBBpAAl99<2>Z66U55O44<3>000<14>zmm<14>674241000<3>99OBBU\
  DDZFFcHHhJJlKKpMMsNNuNNxOOyOOzPPz<2>NNxNNuMMsKKpJJl<2>DDZBBU99O<3>000<2>\
  IE3OJ4UN5ZR6cV7hZ8la9pdAsgBuiBxjBylCzlCzmCzlCylCxjBuiBsgBpdAla9<2>ZR6UN5\
  OJ4<3>000<31>000<4>00Q00V00Z00b00f00i<3>00r00r00s00r00r00p00n00l00i<2>00\
  Z00V00Q<4>000<2>B1D
  }

Gold_Dust          {
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=chby8.frm formulaname=S07-08
  center-mag=0/0/0.6666667 params=0.5/0 float=y maxiter=1023
  inside=255
  colors=000aJ0<45>zzWfSG<14>cWGcWHdXH<29>zzWfbG<26>oq2pr2op2<16>fO0eM0eL0\
  dK0<25>HC7GC8EE8GCCECEICA<29>PHFQIGSKH<14>zzW<25>WG0zz0<4>SOO
  }


xspirals1          { ;  (c) David Shanholtzer May 18, 1998 t=  0:06:49.58
                     ;  P200 MMX 1024x768
                     ; color map: dav53a
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=fractint.frm formulaname=t02-04
  passes=t
  center-mag=+0.42737391262065820/+0.10674548124706650/390603.9
  params=0.47/0 float=y maxiter=500
  colors=000Q5p000<55>000A20<10>yhW<22>A20P00<7>wAA<7>P00U0U<8>www<10>U0U0\
  00<17>000MC7<6>yhW<14>A20000<70>0000AU<5>0mzK0pM1pO3p
  }

c01c03a            { ; (c) Gedeon Peteri, May 06, 1998
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=chby1.frm formulaname=c03-01
  passes=1 center-mag=-1.905e-006/1.0165e-005/0.4081629
  params=0.2/-0.01 float=y maxiter=1023 outside=atan
  colors=uYZuYYwZZ<2>y``z``z``z``<3>x__wZZuYY<2>pVVnUUkSS<3>`LLYKJUIH<5>85\
  4421000322<6>TNSWPV_SZbUaeXd<2>mblodnqepsfr<2>xjwykxylx<3>zlyzlyylx<2>ui\
  ttgsrfqpeoncm<3>dWcaT`YRX<4>HDGDAC978544110211<5>LJOOMRRPVURYXU`<2>c`ieb\
  kgcniep<2>niuojvpkwqlxqlyqlyrmyqly<3>ojvniumhskgr<2>ebkc`iaYf<2>URYRPVOM\
  RLJO<3>879545100100<8>RD0TE0WG0YH0_I0<2>eL0fL0hM0iN0jN0<4>lO0lO0lO0lO0kO\
  0jO0<2>gM0eL0dK0bJ0`I0<4>PC0NB0KA0H80<5>000310<6>OCBQDCTEDVFEYHG<2>cKJdK\
  JfLKgMLiNM<2>kONlONlONlON<2>lONkONkONjNMhML<4>`IHZHGXGFVFESEDPDC<6>63231\
  0321<5>QFFUHHXJJ_LL<3>kSSmTTpVVrWWsXX
  }

c01c04a            { ; (c) Gedeon Peteri, May 06, 1998
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=chby1.frm formulaname=C04-01
  passes=1 center-mag=-0.881256/-0.761186/3.536232/1/-44.999
  params=0.111/0 float=y maxiter=1023 decomp=256
  colors=000QwU<4>6UA2O60I2Q46<5>qPSsTVqQS<6>Q46022488<5>imm<5>AEE4880226N\
  O<6>Nmn<7>6NOHP6<6>lvU<7>HP6J7`<6>dSw<7>J7`U22<5>s22s22s22q22<5>U2202Y<4\
  >0js0sx0zz0uy<6>02YQ46<5>qPSsTVqQS<6>Q46J7`<6>dSw<5>MAcJ7`E2Y<5>qTxsYzsU\
  y<6>E2YGH9<6>khW<6>KKCGH9E22<5>q22s22s22<6>E222PH<6>Uvk<6>6UL2PH02e<4>0O\
  u0Ty0Yz0Uz<6>02eT7J<6>sXi<7>T7J0I22O6<3>KoOPuTUzY
  }

c01c05a            { ; (c) Gedeon Peteri, May 05, 1998
                     ; Modified Ray Girvan map
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=chby1.frm formulaname=C05-01
  passes=1 center-mag=2.22045e-016/0/0.6078311/1/17.5 params=0.1/0
  float=y maxiter=1023 outside=atan
  colors=lSDlSD<2>oWJpYLq_NraPsbR<4>yk`zmbzndzpfzri<8>zgVzfTzeRydPybOxaMx`\
  KwZI<12>gSFfSEeREcQDcQD<14>SHA<13>whZyj`zmb<6>yfTyeSydQxcPxbNwaM<2>vZHuX\
  FtXF<12>fNCeNBdMBcMBbLB<13>MC9<15>zhW<14>qVGpUEpUE<13>eNCdMBeOD<7>scUteW\
  vhZwj`ylb<2>zrizof<9>NJIJGFFDCBA9666<12>tmhxpkztnzwq<12>zgVzfTzeRycPycPx\
  bO<12>mTE
  }

frm:C03-01(Origin){;V.1.0 - earlier versions may be discarded
; = zC02-C01
t=p1,bailout=4,z=pixel:
x=real(z),y=imag(z)
Tx=x*(x*x-3)
Ty=y*(y*y-3)
x=x-t*Ty,y=y+t*Tx
z=x+flip(y)
|z|<=bailout}

frm:C04-01{;V.1.0 - earlier versions may be discarded
; = zC03-C02
t=p1,bailout=4,z=pixel:
x=real(z),y=imag(z)
xx=x*x,yy=y*y
Tx=xx*(xx-4)+2
Ty=yy*(yy-4)+2
x=x-t*Ty,y=y+t*Tx
z=x+flip(y)
|z|<=bailout}

frm:C05-01(Origin){;V.1.0 - earlier versions may be discarded
; = zC04-C03
t=p1,bailout=4,z=pixel:
x=real(z),y=imag(z)
xx=x*x,yy=y*y
Tx=x*(xx*(xx-5)+3)
Ty=y*(yy*(yy-5)+3)
x=x-t*Ty,y=y+t*Tx
z=x+flip(y)
|z|<=bailout}

frm:Ca06-01{;V.1.0 - earlier versions may be discarded
; = ((a+5)xCa(5)-(a+2)Ca(4))/3
a=p2,b=a*(a*(a+3)+2)/6,c=a+3,d=4*(a+4),e=(a+a+10)/15
t=p1,bailout=4,z=pixel:
x=real(z),y=imag(z)
xx=x*x,yy=y*y
Tx=b*(c*xx*(d*xx*(e*xx-1)+3)-1)
Ty=b*(c*yy*(d*yy*(e*yy-1)+3)-1)
x=x-t*Ty,y=y+t*Tx
z=x+flip(y)
|z|<=bailout}

frm:Ca06-05(Origin){;V.1.0 - earlier versions may be discarded
; = ((a+5)xCa(5)-(a+2)Ca(4))/3
a=p1
b1=a*(a*(a+3)+2)/6
c1=a+3
d1=4*(a+4)
e1=2*(a+5)/15
b2=a*(a*(a*(a+6)+11)+6)/3
c2=8*(a+4)
d2=(a+5)/5
bailout=real(p2)/10000,z=pixel:
zz=z*z
f=b1*(c1*zz*(d1*zz*(e1*zz-1)+3)-1)
fd=b2*z*(c2*zz*(d2*zz-1)+3)
oz=z
z=z-f/fd
bailout<=|z-oz|}

frm:Ca10-08{;V.1.0 - earlier versions may be discarded
; = ((a+9)xCa(9)-(a+4)Ca(8))/5
a=p1
b=a*(a*(a*(a*(a+10)+35)+50)+24)/382860
c=15*(a+5)
d=a+a+12
e=a*(a+15)+56
f=(a+a+18)/45
g=14*(a+a+13)/5
t=real(p2),bailout=4,z=pixel:
x=real(z),y=imag(z)
xx=x*x,yy=y*y
Tx=sin(b*(c*xx*(d*xx*(81*xx*(e*xx*(f*xx-1)+g)-1418)[phone]))
Ty=sin(b*(c*yy*(d*yy*(81*yy*(e*yy*(f*yy-1)+g)-1418)[phone]))
x=x+t*Ty,y=y+t*Tx
z=x+flip(y)
|z|<=bailout}

frm:S07-08(Origin){;V.1.0 - earlier versions may be discarded
; = zS06-S05
t=p1,bailout=4,z=pixel:
x=real(z),y=imag(z)
xx=x*x,yy=y*y
Tx=sin(x*(xx*(xx*(xx-6)+10)-4))
Ty=sin(y*(yy*(yy*(yy-6)+10)-4))
x=x-t*Ty,y=y+t*Tx
z=x+flip(y)
|z|<=bailout}

frm:T02-04{;V.1.0 - earlier versions may be discarded
; = 2zT01-T00
const=pixel-1,z=p1:
z=(z+z)*z+const
|z|<100}

frm:Uc03-09{;V.1.0 - earlier versions may be discarded
; = 2z(2z-1)U02-U01
t=p1,bailout=4,z=pixel:
x=real(z),y=imag(z)
ax=4*x-2,ay=4*y-2
Tx=fn1(ax*(ax*ax-2))
Ty=fn1(ay*(ay*ay-2))
x=x-t*Ty,y=y+t*Tx
z=x+flip(y)
|z|<=bailout}



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Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:42:34 +0200
From: "Dean-Christian Strik" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Contest(2 cents worth)

:Grand Poo Bah II writes,
:
:>  - For the present, Fractint is quite satisfactory to me....however, this
:>   - IS the Fractint listserver, and I feel the contest should be for
:>   - Fractint produced images.
:>   - ...
:>   - Or else maybe just move the whole contest to the Fractal Art list!
:>
:>  Done! :-)
:
:how do I subscribe to this list?  I can't find it on majordomo lists.
:Thanks,
:Luke


Send a message with
    subscribe fractal-art
in the body to
    [e-mail]

Christian





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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:15:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: [e-mail] (Kragen)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Contest(2 cents worth)

On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Damien M. Jones wrote:
>  - ...some folks might need to convert from .bmp (which is HUGE) to jpg
>  - to get to the right size.
>
> BMPs are not web material anyway.  Since these images will, I suspect, be
> viewed primarily through a web browser, that restricts the choices to GIF
> and JPEG.  (Mac browsers don't view BMP, although PC browsers do.)

Neither do Linux or Unix browsers.

> (1) PNG is a great format.  It's the way GIF should have been designed in
> the first place; it supports all the things that just plain make sense.  I
> would like to see browsers support PNG natively (and that means WITHOUT a
> plug-in).  Until they do, it is thoroughly unsuitable for use in a web
> presentation.

Lots of browsers (perhaps a dozen) support PNG natively.  MSIE and
Netscape didn't; I don't know if they do now.

> If you want me to put up a web page explaining all of the above, I can do
> this.

I think that would be an excellent idea.

Kragen


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Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:23:05 -0500
From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Contest(2 cents worth)

Kragen,

 - >(Mac browsers don't view BMP, although PC browsers do.)
 -
 - Neither do Linux or Unix browsers.

Thank you for reminding me about UNIX.  I keep forgetting UNIX.

 - Lots of browsers (perhaps a dozen) support PNG natively.  MSIE and
 - Netscape didn't; I don't know if they do now.

Testing for PNG support is a little weird.  MSIE and NC will both open a
JPEG file directly, that is, without it being referenced from an HTML file.
 However, neither will natively open a PNG file.  To use a PNG file, it
must be referenced from an HTML file's IMG tag.  MSIE4 and NC4 will both
view PNG files in this fashion.

Still, last time I checked (a few months ago) 40% of web surfers were still
using version 3 browsers, and they most definitely do NOT support PNG.

 - > If you want me to put up a web page explaining all of the above, I can
 - > do this.
 -
 - I think that would be an excellent idea.

All right.  Give me a few days.

Damien M. Jones   \\
[e-mail]  \\  http://www.icd.com/tsd/ (temporary sanity designs)
                    \\  http://www.fractalus.com/ (fractals are my hobby)

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Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:35:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: [e-mail] (Kragen)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Contest(2 cents worth)

On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Damien M. Jones wrote:
> Kragen,
>  - >(Mac browsers don't view BMP, although PC browsers do.)
>  -
>  - Neither do Linux or Unix browsers.
>
> Thank you for reminding me about UNIX.  I keep forgetting UNIX.

There are about as many people using Linux as using Macs, remember :)

>  - Lots of browsers (perhaps a dozen) support PNG natively.  MSIE and
>  - Netscape didn't; I don't know if they do now.
>
> Testing for PNG support is a little weird.  MSIE and NC will both open a
> JPEG file directly, that is, without it being referenced from an HTML file.
>  However, neither will natively open a PNG file.  To use a PNG file, it
> must be referenced from an HTML file's IMG tag.  MSIE4 and NC4 will both
> view PNG files in this fashion.
>
> Still, last time I checked (a few months ago) 40% of web surfers were still
> using version 3 browsers, and they most definitely do NOT support PNG.

Yes, and less than 10% are using non-Netscape, non-MSIE browsers, most
of which do support PNG (and have for a year or two).

I remember when Netscape first came out, and people were upset about
inline jpegs -- because Mosaic didn't support jpeg at all.  I didn't
use jpegs for quite a while because of this.  The situation is even
worse now, because most people are satisfied with their current
browser: see <URL:http://www.useit.com/alertbox/980322.html> for some
data.

(and these days, I don't use xbm anymore, because MSIE doesn't support it.)

>  - I think that would be an excellent idea.
>
> All right.  Give me a few days.

I'll send you a quick HTML version.

Kragen


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Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:37:56 -0400
From: "Peter Gavin" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (fractint) Contest(2 cents worth)

I know internet explorer and netscape both can view PNG files, if we decide
to use them.

Pete
<[e-mail]>

//  -----Original Message-----
//  From: [e-mail]
//  [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Kragen
//  Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 1998 1:15 PM
//  To: [e-mail]
//  Subject: Re: (fractint) Contest(2 cents worth)
//
//
//  On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Damien M. Jones wrote:
//  >  - ...some folks might need to convert from .bmp (which is
//  HUGE) to jpg
//  >  - to get to the right size.
//  >
//  > BMPs are not web material anyway.  Since these images will, I
//  suspect, be
//  > viewed primarily through a web browser, that restricts the
//  choices to GIF
//  > and JPEG.  (Mac browsers don't view BMP, although PC browsers do.)
//
//  Neither do Linux or Unix browsers.
//
//  > (1) PNG is a great format.  It's the way GIF should have been
//  designed in
//  > the first place; it supports all the things that just plain
//  make sense.  I
//  > would like to see browsers support PNG natively (and that
//  means WITHOUT a
//  > plug-in).  Until they do, it is thoroughly unsuitable for use in a web
//  > presentation.
//
//  Lots of browsers (perhaps a dozen) support PNG natively.  MSIE and
//  Netscape didn't; I don't know if they do now.
//
//  > If you want me to put up a web page explaining all of the
//  above, I can do
//  > this.
//
//  I think that would be an excellent idea.
//
//  Kragen
//
//
//  --------------------------------------------------------------
//  Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
//  Post Message:   [e-mail]
//  Get Commands:   [e-mail] "help"
//  Administrator:  [e-mail]
//  Unsubscribe:    [e-mail] "unsubscribe fractint"
//


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Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:42:21 -0400
From: "Peter Gavin" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (fractint) Contest(2 cents worth)

Well, I have some web space I can donate.  We can provide *both* GIFs and
PNGs and the viewer can decide which to use.  I know it may not be worth it,
since I don't know how much smaller PNGs will be, but that way at least all
the traffic will be reduced on the main site.


Pete
<[e-mail]>

//  Testing for PNG support is a little weird.  MSIE and NC will both open a
//  JPEG file directly, that is, without it being referenced from
//  an HTML file.
//   However, neither will natively open a PNG file.  To use a PNG file, it
//  must be referenced from an HTML file's IMG tag.  MSIE4 and NC4 will both
//  view PNG files in this fashion.


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Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:41:12 -0500
From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Contest(2 cents worth)

Kragen,

 - There are about as many people using Linux as using Macs, remember :)

Maybe, but they sure don't show up proportionately in the browser logs.

 - Yes, and less than 10% are using non-Netscape, non-MSIE browsers, most
 - of which do support PNG (and have for a year or two).

Right.  FWIW, the CD-ROM I put together for our budding ISP includes MSIE,
Communicator... and Opera.

 - I remember when Netscape first came out, and people were upset about
 - inline jpegs -- because Mosaic didn't support jpeg at all.

Yep.  In general, Netscapisms are a bad approach for general-appeal web
sites.  (And here by Netscapisms I mean any feature which is specific to a
certain browser, that doesn't cover at least 80% of the users.  MS is as
guilty of Netscapisms as Netscape is. :-)

 - The situation is even worse now, because most people are satisfied with
 - their current browser:

Jakob Nielsen's AlertBox is always a good read.  I've found much valuable
information there.

 - I'll send you a quick HTML version.

Actually, I was talking more about having sample pictures showing good and
bad JPEG compression, PNG files, etc.  I'll post it to fractalus.com when
it's done.

Damien M. Jones   \\
[e-mail]  \\  http://www.icd.com/tsd/ (temporary sanity designs)
                    \\  http://www.fractalus.com/ (fractals are my hobby)

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:06:24 -0500
From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (fractint) Contest(2 cents worth)

Peter,

 - Well, I have some web space I can donate.  We can provide *both* GIFs and
 - PNGs and the viewer can decide which to use.

It's not an issue of space.  PNG certainly does better on 256-color images,
but it can't compete with JPEG (properly used) for 24-bit images--and I
*strongly recommend* contest entries be rendered at high res and resampled
down to anti-alias, producing 24-bit images.  Even so, as I've stated
before, I have plenty of space at my disposal; that's why I volunteered it
in the first place.

No, the issue is whether it is worth preparing PNG versions of images,
given the number of visitors that would not be able to use them.  In my
earlier message, I posted comparisons of file sizes for 24-bit images--a
640x480 image and a 600x800 image, both anti-aliased versions of 1600x1200
256-color images.  Today I saved two 1600x1200 GIFs in PNG format to
compare; the GIFs were 740K and 366K; the PNGs were 490K and 285K.  PNG
compresses better than GIF, sure, but it can't compress 24-bit data better
than JPEG, even when the JPEG quality is set very high.

So why are we worried about PNG?  JPEG handles it better, is more widely
supported... the compelling reasons to use PNG (8-bit alpha channel, 16-bit
color channel precision, no LZW patent problems) don't really apply in this
situation.

Damien M. Jones   \\
[e-mail]  \\  http://www.icd.com/tsd/ (temporary sanity designs)
                    \\  http://www.fractalus.com/ (fractals are my hobby)

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:08:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: [e-mail] (Kragen)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Contest(2 cents worth)

On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Damien M. Jones wrote:
>  - There are about as many people using Linux as using Macs, remember :)
>
> Maybe, but they sure don't show up proportionately in the browser logs.

It depends on whose logs you're looking at.
http://browserwatch.internet.com/stats/ua-netscape.html shows:

Mozilla/3.x (Mac68k) 0.30%
Mozilla/3.x (MacPPC) 1.02%
Mozilla/3.x (Win16) 0.77%
Mozilla/3.x (Win95) 4.29%
Mozilla/3.x (X11) 0.73%
Mozilla/4.x (Mac68k) 0.23%
Mozilla/4.x (MacPPC) 3.12%
Mozilla/4.x (Win16) 0.25%
Mozilla/4.x (Win95) 22.3%
Mozilla/4.x (WinNT) 8.78%
Mozilla/4.x (X11) 4.68%

And Microsoft browsers are 1.36% on MacPPC, 7.86% on Win95, and 5.67%
on WinNT (for MSIE 4.x).

This would seem to support the idea that the numbers are comparable --
approximately 6.03% unambiguously using Macs, and 5.41% unambiguously
using Linux or other Unix.

>  - Yes, and less than 10% are using non-Netscape, non-MSIE browsers, most
>  - of which do support PNG (and have for a year or two).
>
> Right.  FWIW, the CD-ROM I put together for our budding ISP includes MSIE,
> Communicator... and Opera.

Opera is nice.  Did you include the demo version, or the full version?

>  - I'll send you a quick HTML version.
>
> Actually, I was talking more about having sample pictures showing good and
> bad JPEG compression, PNG files, etc.  I'll post it to fractalus.com when
> it's done.

Ahh.

I'll send you a quick HTML version anyway, since it's already done :)

Kragen


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Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:16:50 -0700
From: kathy roth <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) anti-aliasing

Can I use PaintShopPro to anti-alias my
images?  I have version 4.0.  My
system has a max of 1024 x768.


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Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:19:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Kaplan <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Contest(2 cents worth)

My copy of Lynx handles PNG just as well as JPEG or GIF...

:)


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Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:19:43 -0500
From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Contest(2 cents worth)

Kragen,

 - It depends on whose logs you're looking at.

Of course it does.  I was talking about my own logs.

 - And Microsoft browsers are 1.36% on MacPPC, 7.86% on Win95, and 5.67%
 - on WinNT (for MSIE 4.x).

Yeah, just remember that MSIE often calls itself a Mozilla-compatible.
Analyzing browser logs took quite a bit of by-hand filtering.

 - Opera is nice.  Did you include the demo version, or the full version?

The demo version, of course.  We're a budding ISP, not a wealthy one. :-)

(Quick note: further discussion about browsers should probably not take
place on the *FractInt* mailing list, since it only peripherally relates to
fractals and FractInt. :)  If you want to discuss it through private
e-mail, though, that's cool with me.)

Damien M. Jones   \\
[e-mail]  \\  http://www.icd.com/tsd/ (temporary sanity designs)
                    \\  http://www.fractalus.com/ (fractals are my hobby)

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:22:48 -0500
From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) anti-aliasing

Kathy,

 - Can I use PaintShopPro to anti-alias my
 - images?  I have version 4.0.

YES!  What you need to do is load a large image into Paint Shop Pro,
convert it to 24-bit color, then resize it down.  For example, you could
take a 1024x768 image and reduce it to 512x384 (which is a pleasant medium
size for a web page) and get nice anti-aliasing.  You may want to
*slightly* sharpen the image after the resizing.

 - My system has a max of 1024 x768.

Remember that FractInt can render to disk at sizes up to 2048x2048; larger
if you render the image in pieces.  And Paint Shop Pro will load an image
and let you work with it even if it's bigger than your display.

Damien M. Jones   \\
[e-mail]  \\  http://www.icd.com/tsd/ (temporary sanity designs)
                    \\  http://www.fractalus.com/ (fractals are my hobby)

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:29:05 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Re: Contest

Damien writes,

>  - Zipping gif and especially jpeg files isn't useful. It's not very likely
>   - the file size shrinks by more than one percent.
>
>  In this case, ZIPping files serves another purpose besides compression: it
>  allows you to download many files as a single block, without having to
>  manually visit each page.

I'd suggest not too many files in one zip please - nothing is worse than
spending hours on end downloading a single file, just to have the download
crash (for whatever reason e.g. someone else attempts to use phoneline) 2
minutes before completion.

Thanks,

Luke

[e-mail]
http://members.xoom.com/lukeplant/


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Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 03:49:48 -0500
From: "Paul N. Lee" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Contest(2 cents worth)

(Note from Tim - one can't post messages like this with words like "subscribe"
in them, they bounce to me, so I posted this by hand.)

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> how do I subscribe to this list?
> I can't find it on majordomo lists.
>

 post:  send message to [e-mail]
  sub:  send "subscribe" to [e-mail]
admin:  send comments to [e-mail]

P.N.L.
- -------------------------------------------------
     Why do most folks hate cynics so much?
       Because we're almost always right.
- -------------------------------------------------
http://www.fractalus.com/cgi-bin/theway?ring=fractals&id=43&go


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Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:35:29 -0400
From: "Peter Gavin" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (fractint) Contest(2 cents worth)

Didn't the previous several versions of IE report 'Mozilla 3.0' or 'Mozilla
compatible' or something to that effect?  That could be included in those
numbers.


Pete
<[e-mail]>

//  -----Original Message-----
//  From: [e-mail]
//  [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Kragen
//  Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 1998 2:09 PM
//  To: [e-mail]
//  Subject: Re: (fractint) Contest(2 cents worth)
//
//
//  On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Damien M. Jones wrote:
//  >  - There are about as many people using Linux as using Macs,
//  remember :)
//  >
//  > Maybe, but they sure don't show up proportionately in the
//  browser logs.
//
//  It depends on whose logs you're looking at.
//  http://browserwatch.internet.com/stats/ua-netscape.html shows:
//
//  Mozilla/3.x (Mac68k) 0.30%
//  Mozilla/3.x (MacPPC) 1.02%
//  Mozilla/3.x (Win16) 0.77%
//  Mozilla/3.x (Win95) 4.29%
//  Mozilla/3.x (X11) 0.73%
//  Mozilla/4.x (Mac68k) 0.23%
//  Mozilla/4.x (MacPPC) 3.12%
//  Mozilla/4.x (Win16) 0.25%
//  Mozilla/4.x (Win95) 22.3%
//  Mozilla/4.x (WinNT) 8.78%
//  Mozilla/4.x (X11) 4.68%
//
//  And Microsoft browsers are 1.36% on MacPPC, 7.86% on Win95, and 5.67%
//  on WinNT (for MSIE 4.x).
//
//  This would seem to support the idea that the numbers are comparable --
//  approximately 6.03% unambiguously using Macs, and 5.41% unambiguously
//  using Linux or other Unix.
//
//  >  - Yes, and less than 10% are using non-Netscape, non-MSIE
//  browsers, most
//  >  - of which do support PNG (and have for a year or two).
//  >
//  > Right.  FWIW, the CD-ROM I put together for our budding ISP
//  includes MSIE,
//  > Communicator... and Opera.
//
//  Opera is nice.  Did you include the demo version, or the full version?
//
//  >  - I'll send you a quick HTML version.
//  >
//  > Actually, I was talking more about having sample pictures
//  showing good and
//  > bad JPEG compression, PNG files, etc.  I'll post it to
//  fractalus.com when
//  > it's done.
//
//  Ahh.
//
//  I'll send you a quick HTML version anyway, since it's already done :)
//
//  Kragen
//
//
//  --------------------------------------------------------------
//  Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
//  Post Message:   [e-mail]
//  Get Commands:   [e-mail] "help"
//  Administrator:  [e-mail]
//  Unsubscribe:    [e-mail] "unsubscribe fractint"
//


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End of fractint-digest V1 #259
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