>However, novelty value I think is the limit ultimately of many hipsters'
>ironic enjoyment of the Shaggs.
I don't think it's even ironic. I think there is a strong strain
in the "lounge" movement to sneeringly champion really bad music.
It's not based on enjoyment. Listening to the Shaggs is about as
enjoyable as eating dirt... These people go after the kitsch
stuff so they can feel superior and look down their nose on the
music they "ironically enjoy". They're just playing the role of
a "connoiseur of rubbish". The music is irrelevant to the act.
I was a fan of percussion and exotica records before the "fez and
martini crowd" picked up on it. When the Re:Search books came out,
I was puzzled because some of the people profiled in there were
record collectors like me, but others seemed to be art school
dropouts talking about totally worthless stuff.
I had great hopes for the CD re-releases. It was wonderful getting
nice clean copies of Martin Denny and Les Baxter songs. But too
many of the compilations seemed to consist of only the absolute
*weirdest* ping pong, cow bell and banging trash can lid cuts.
The liner notes listed cocktail recipes instead of info on the
musicians. It got to the point where I felt like I was taking
a chance every time I bought a CD of the style of music I knew
I liked.
Some people see "lounge" music as a great genre of music, others
just see it as a novelty. I think that the focus on novelty
is responsible for the downturn in interest in exotica music
over the past year or two. People just get their fill of the
Shaggs and move on to something else.
See ya
Steve
Stephen Worth
bigshot@spumco.com
The Web: http://www.spumco.com
Usenet: alt.animation.spumco
Palace: cartoonsforum.com:9994
Spumco International
1021 Grandview, 2nd Floor
Glendale, CA 91201
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 03:27:11 +0100 (CET)
From: "Magnus Sandberg" <m.sandberg@telia.com>
Subject: Re: (exotica) Re: KPM releases
>
> Hopefully it wasn't the Montparnasse series. Can you say "DOH" like=20
Homer
> Simpson?
>
> Sean
I spell it N=E4=E4=E4=E4=E4=E4=E4h! That is an A with two dots over it!
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 21:31:10 -0500
From: "Br. Cleve" <brcleve@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: (exotica) Vixens of Vinyl
on 3/23/01 7:45 PM, Benito Vergara at bvergara@sfsu.edu wrote:
> The cover (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0811831345.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg) is
> from a Ferrante and Teicher album, correct?
yes it is, although I can't think of the title of it offhand
br cleve
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 18:42:44 -0800
From: bigshot <bigshot@spumco.com>
Subject: (exotica) Classical Snobbery
exotica-digest wrote:
>Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 15:18:05 -0500
>From: Clayton Black <clayton.black@washcoll.edu>
>Subject: Re:(exotica)the Shaggs
>
>Much of my complaint with classical music has nothing to do
>with the music itself but with the people who see it as the
>only acceptable medium of musical expression or who commit
>their tastes to it because it is "safe"--everybody agrees that
>it's "high" culture, and plenty of people are sufficiently
>insecure about their own tastes that they figure no one will
>argue with them if they wax eloquent about Beethoven.
I just got through with my own rant saying the exact same thing
about people who wax rhapsodic about the artistic importance of
the Shaggs!
The one advantage that classical music has is time. Most of the
totally worthless dreck has fallen out of circulation in the
hundreds of years of changes in repetoire. The percentage of
good to bad is much higher than in current music where the
good, the bad and the ugly all exist on the same level.
>Like just about anything, I've found, classical music becomes more
>interesting the more you know about it
I agree with you totally. There's good and bad in every type
of music... classical, jazz, country, big band, etc... Most of
the time though, when people say things like "I don't like
country music" or "Opera is boring" all they are saying is
that they are totally ignorant on that particular subject.
The music is what matters. You can't be a passive listener.
See ya
Steve
Stephen Worth
bigshot@spumco.com
The Web: http://www.spumco.com
Usenet: alt.animation.spumco
Palace: cartoonsforum.com:9994
Spumco International
1021 Grandview, 2nd Floor
Glendale, CA 91201
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 10:31:00 +0800
From: "William" <king8egg@ms60.url.com.tw>
Subject: (exotica) re: classical music
> I do like a lot of classical music, sometimes, but I'm glad that you wrote
> this, Alan. Much of my complaint with classical music has nothing to do
> with the music itself but with the people who see it as the only
acceptable
> medium of musical expression or who commit their tastes to it because it
is
> "safe"--everybody agrees that it's "high" culture, and plenty of people
are
> sufficiently insecure about their own tastes that they figure no one will
> argue with them if they wax eloquent about Beethoven. There's an awful
lot
> of this in academe. People talk as though classical music is the only
music
> that is suitably intellectual for their tastes.
my brother was a piano performance major and he complained about this
same thing. his thought was that if you were studying music you should be
interested in music not just this high brow stuff. be it jazz, hip hop or
what have you. one day he wrote to me all excited because he had actually
met someone who dug donna summer. and wasn't ashamed to like both.
i used to have a roomate here in taiwan who was a music major, she grew
up going to music schools and when she was little all she listened to was
classical music. when she first heard pop music she thought it was terrible.
later she came to appreciate it(well, some of it). she used to tell me that
in taiwan most people who listen to classical music or jazz - or a lot who
do, do so to show they are cultured or sophisticated. it is almost more for
the perception of what this music represents than the music itself.
for myself, i prefer to see classical music performed live. though i
rarely do that anymore. i do have some classical music cds, but i rarely put
them on. i just don't seem to be in the mood for them most of the time.
william in taipei.
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 03:50:51 +0100 (CET)
From: "Magnus Sandberg" <m.sandberg@telia.com>
Subject: (exotica) classical music
- -e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g---i-s-
- ----------T-I-K-I----------
Except Michael Caine and Richard Pryor.
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 21:56:31 -0500
From: "Risser Family" <risser@cinci.rr.com>
Subject: Re: (exotica) Classical Snobbery
> The one advantage that classical music has is time. Most of the
> totally worthless dreck has fallen out of circulation in the
> hundreds of years of changes in repetoire. The percentage of
> good to bad is much higher than in current music where the
> good, the bad and the ugly all exist on the same level.
Sorry. I think Haydn and Vivaldi are really boring. Mozart was nice and
Beethoven was great.
So, whatever. Classical music is just like most other pop music styles:
some people are fashionable and some aren't, with a few one hit wonders and
the true greats rising to the top.
I listen to all music and judge it based on whether I like it or not, which
is the only criteria that's important to me.
Peter
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 14:15:12 +1100
From: Philip Jackson <pdj@mpx.com.au>
Subject: Re: (exotica)the Shaggs
on 24/3/01 8:03 AM, Magnus Sandberg at m.sandberg@telia.com wrote:
> My little rant is this: The best classical music I have ever heard
> comes from an ordinary housewife in england 1970 who recieved notes
> from the composers themselves several hundred years after they died.
>
> I wrote about this lady a month ago, no replies except for Mo, who
> questioned the quality of the music.
I saw a TV show about this lady some time ago but unfortunately I can't
recall the "quality' of the music. On a related note do you know the Alice
Coltrane album "Lord of Lords" inspired by visitations from Stravinsky and
John Coltrane. A very beautiful and spiritual record.
Philip
- --
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 19:55:30 -0800
From: "jim gerwitz" <jamesbg@home.com>
Subject: (exotica) smoking and otherness
The prolific alan wrote:
<Anybody seen the movie "Female on the Beach"? I like that. I guess it's
basically just camp so it probably doesn't qualify.>
FotB is classic camp (a word with many interpretations, like exotica), and
Joan tosses off a perfect line to her nosy neighbors:
"I'd like to ask you to stay and have a drink, but I'm afraid you might
accept."
I bought Joan's beach bum boyfriend Jeff Chandler's lp on eBay just for the
cool cover where he's smoking. Seem's everbody smoked in the 50's except
Jack Lalanne.
If you liked FotB watch for 1954's "Wicked Woman" on TCM. Percy Helton has a
big role (for him) as a horndog tailor. Most people won't know his name, but
will recognize the face and the hoarse whispery voice. Title song "Wicked
Woman" (sung by Herb Jeffries) and her favorite jukebox song "One Night in
Acapulco" are credited to Joe Mullendore, who dropped the "Joe" moniker a
decade later in his music credits for Lost in Space and Honey West.
Jb
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 23:04:27 -0500
From: alan zweig <azed@pathcom.com>
Subject: Re: (exotica) Ironic Enjoyment
At 06:29 PM 3/23/01 -0800, bigshot wrote:
>You've spent part of this precious resource listening to complete
>crap, but you don't don't choose to listen to the accumulated
>music of hundreds of years of our culture! All I can say is,
>I hope you're young, so you have plenty of time to wise up!
Then he wrote:
> I think there is a strong strain
>in the "lounge" movement to sneeringly champion really bad music.
>It's not based on enjoyment. Listening to the Shaggs is about as
>enjoyable as eating dirt...
And I say "Shut up" unless you can argue like a gentleman.
AZ
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 23:12:03 -0500
From: alan zweig <azed@pathcom.com>
Subject: Re: (exotica) smoking and otherness
At 07:55 PM 3/23/01 -0800, jim gerwitz wrote:
>
>The prolific alan wrote:
Is that a veiled criticism?
AZ (the paranoid)
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------------------------------
Date: 23 Mar 2001 20:38:12 -0800
From: mkg@calle22.com
Subject: (exotica) Shaggs and more
Hi there,
I knew eventually the thread of arts vs. craft would lead us to The Shaggs. That would be the example I would use to show that you don't have to be an 'artist' (in the elitist sense of the world) to do mind opening stuff (or art or whatever you want to call it).
But then again I knew that Steven would probably laugh at someone saying that the Shaggs might be the only reason mankind was put on earth (which might be the case).
I have always hated virtuoso players. There is nothing there but ego, ego, ego. They want to be looked at, they want to be adored, they want to be imitated... it's not enough to express themselves, they want all the other stuff. And that's why I think The Shaggs are so great: no ego, no need to please the masses, just "The Shaggs own thing".
In part that is why I think we are living in such a great time. Now you don't need to develop your chops over 20 years to be able to do music. That might sound like a nightmarish scenario to Steven but for me is just heaven. I can imagine paradise as a place where people do the things they want to do just because of themselves, not to impress or to 'get chicks' or become famous, or any of those silly reasons that people have in their heads while doing things.
I had some more to say (about Wenders and how Wings of desire is the beginning of the end for him) but I'll leave that for later.
And since there are so much comic lovers here I have to recommend Hicksville, it's a comic book by Dylan Horrock, a New Zelander artist. It's simple and pretty and smart and a complete hommage to comics and why people like them. It's not that polished so people who want their comic drawings perfectly neat might be disappointed. But for those who prefer a little piece of truth over the polish earned by years of 'working your chops'... well it is great.
It's so good I begun to read it and stopped after a couple of chapters. Because I wanted it to last for ever. But I finished up reading it, and liking it a lot.
Oh... and about weird movies... my favorite movie is a weird one: Celine et Julie vont en bateau. Three hours of narrative loopholes, directed by New Wave maestro Jacques Rivette. It's not weird in the same vein as Jodorowski (there are no midgets or mutilated actors), but the structure is so strange I just couldn't stop grinning all the way (and it lasts for more than 3 hours). It's a movie I would compare to The Shaggs, it so different from everything else that you have no idea where it's going to turn next.
Bye,
Manuel
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 23:38:41 -0500
From: Manuel Kalmanovitz <mkg@calle22.com>
Subject: (exotica) Shaggs and more
Hi there,
I knew eventually the thread of arts vs. craft would lead us to The
Shaggs. That would be the example I would use to show that you don't
have to be an 'artist' (in the elitist sense of the world) to do mind
opening stuff (or art or whatever you want to call it).
But then again I knew that Steven would probably laugh at someone saying
that the Shaggs might be the only reason mankind was put on earth (which
might be the case).
I have always hated virtuoso players. There is nothing there but ego,
ego, ego. They want to be looked at, they want to be adored, they want
to be imitated... it's not enough to express themselves, they want all
the other stuff. And that's why I think The Shaggs are so great: no ego,
no need to please the masses, just "The Shaggs own thing".
In part that is why I think we are living in such a great time. Now you
don't need to develop your chops over 20 years to be able to do music.
That might sound like a nightmarish scenario to Steven but for me is
just heaven. I can imagine paradise as a place where people do the
things they want to do just because of themselves, not to impress or to
'get chicks' or become famous, or any of those silly reasons that people
have in their heads while doing things.
I had some more to say (about Wenders and how Wings of desire is the
beginning of the end for him) but I'll leave that for later.
And since there are so much comic lovers here I have to recommend
Hicksville, it's a comic book by Dylan Horrock, a New Zelander artist.
It's simple and pretty and smart and a complete hommage to comics and
why people like them. It's not that polished so people who want their
comic drawings perfectly neat might be disappointed. But for those who
prefer a little piece of truth over the polish earned by years of
'working your chops'... well it is great.
It's so good I begun to read it and stopped after a couple of chapters.
Because I wanted it to last for ever. But I finished up reading it, and
liking it a lot.
Oh... and about weird movies... my favorite movie is a weird one: Celine
et Julie vont en bateau. Three hours of narrative loopholes, directed by
New Wave maestro Jacques Rivette. It's not weir in the same vein as
Jodorowski (there are no midgets or mutilated actors), but the structure
is so strange I just couldn't stop grinning all the way (and it lasts
for more than 3 hours).
Bye,
Manuel
P.S Sorry if you receive this email twice I've been having trouble with
my mail server and I'm not sure if it already sent this one out.
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 07:17:51 +0100
From: Edward Milhuisen <edjunkita@wanadoo.nl>
Subject: Re: (exotica) Vixens of Vinyl
Ferrante & Teicher - Our Golden Favorites - United Artists Records
Chopsticks (Bossa Nouveau) / The Impossible Dream (The Quest) (From the
Musical "Man of La Mancha") / Dominique / Yellowbird / Theme from
Grieg's
Piano Concerto - Eddie's Tune / Malaguena / A Walk in the Black Forest /
Temptation / I'm Always Chasing Rainbows / Born Free (from the film
"Born
Free") / Alley Cat / Chopin's Polonaise
Nice record , there's even some Classical tunes that Alan would enjoy.
"Br. Cleve" wrote:
> on 3/23/01 7:45 PM, Benito Vergara at bvergara@sfsu.edu wrote:
>
>
> > The cover
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0811831345.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg) is
> > from a Ferrante and Teicher album, correct?
>
> yes it is, although I can't think of the title of it offhand
>
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 07:24:36 +0100
From: Edward Milhuisen <edjunkita@wanadoo.nl>
Subject: Re: (exotica) Classical Snobbery
bigshot wrote:
> >Like just about anything, I've found, classical music becomes more
> >interesting the more you know about it
>
> I agree with you totally. There's good and bad in every type
> of music... classical, jazz, country, big band, etc... Most of
> the time though, when people say things like "I don't like
> country music" or "Opera is boring" all they are saying is
> that they are totally ignorant on that particular subject.
you forgot to mention collage music
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 07:41:22 +0100
From: Edward Milhuisen <edjunkita@wanadoo.nl>
Subject: Re: (exotica) Shaggs and more
mkg@calle22.com wrote:
> And since there are so much comic lovers here
I have noticed this among my friends.
Why is exotica so popular among graphic artists?
Is it the nostalgia for the time they started reading comix?
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 11:33:57 +0100
From: Moritz R <moritz@derplan.com>
Subject: (exotica) very lucky morning
This happened to me this morning; it was like a dream sequence from a record collector's movie:
I was going to a record trade market to find an extremely rare record...
The thing is, I own this one already, it's the RAH Band's "Crunch & Beyond", but a friend of mine, Andreas, had been talking into me to buy it from me for almost a year now, constantly increasing his offers. The other week he arrived at 50.-DM, which is 23$ and he urged me to sell it to him, because he is going to DJ by the end of next week and badly wanted to have this.
So I gave it another try and listened to my "Crunch & Beyond" again, only to find that I liked each and every track on it better than ever. I just didn't want to sell it. I called some used record shops, but nobody had it.
So I decided to go to this record fair, which is only taking place every 2 months or so. I was very early, most dealers were just opening their stands. My hopes to find "Crunch & Beyond" were not very high. I went to the first stand that was in my way, and went through the first box of records, and, I'm not kidding: the sixth or seventh record was "Crunch & Beyond"!!! I couldn't believe my eyes! And it was prized for only 7.- Marks! I had paid for my copy 25.-DM last year. I was so excited, I thought I was dreaming. So I went to the guy and said "I want this one". And he wanted only 5.- Marks from me! It was unbelievable!
The story is not over yet. I went to the next stand, and - well, I make it short this time: I found "Crunch & Beyond" again, this time for 12.-Marks. This was so f.....g unlikely! Of course I wanted to buy it once more, the only problem was, that there was nobody at that stand to sell it to me; apparently they had gone for a coffee or something, so I decided to take the album and come back later to buy it, as I was afraid that someone else would buy it meanwhile.
OK, I spent an hour or so, buying this and that, then I went back to the stand, or better: to the place where the stand WAS. The entire stand was gone and nobody knew whose it had been! It was still kind of early, why the hell had they left? Well... here I was with my RAH Band album and no way to find out to whom I owed 12.-DM. I really didn't mean to steal a record, but as it looked I had no chance NOT to. Jeesh, what a pity ;-) So I went home, singing loudly along and banging on the stearing wheel of my car to the beat of Frankie Laine's "Wanted Man"...
Magnus, something had been completely going wrong with your voodoo punishment against me!
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 12:02:36 +0100
From: Moritz R <moritz@derplan.com>
Subject: Re: (exotica) Shaggs
Edward Milhuisen schrieb:
> As much as I love The Shaggs, I still can't put my finger on what makes
> them so special. Is it their innocence? Is it the fact that it was actually
> put out on record? There must be a zillion bands out there that are just
> as inept as The Shaggs
I think it was some kind of historic coincidence. When the idea of "incredibly strange music" was invented, the Shaggs were one of the first examples and everybody got to know them. It could have been any other record of that kind as well.
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 12:21:02 +0100
From: Moritz R <moritz@derplan.com>
Subject: Re: (exotica) Classical Snobbery
bigshot schrieb:
> The one advantage that classical music has is time. Most of the
> totally worthless dreck has fallen out of circulation in the
> hundreds of years of changes in repetoire.
this statement is a total contradiction to what you said about Bach. Apparently he was down and out for 200 years, considered as the dry calculating mathematics musician, and then rediscovered and now we think he's the greatest.
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 12:13:11 +0100
From: Moritz R <moritz@derplan.com>
Subject: Re: (exotica) Andy Warhol and the Shaggs
bigshot schrieb:
> >And maybe I missed this thread, but would Warhol be considered art then?
>
> I would consider him an artist. But not a very good one.
I know why: Because Warhol sort of invented this "bad is good" concept; that's what Pop Art is all about. Subsequently Warhol was one of the losers of the art market collapse of the late 80s. Especially the prices of his silk screen prints went down remarkably.
Still Pop Art was the one direction in the art of the second part of the 20th century, that filled me with the most hope and has influenced the best things in our present culture. Is that a contradiction? Not if you see art in a context.
