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- Date: 27-Feb-95 14:39 PST
- From: David Tallen,71257,3427
- To: All
-
- I have never played craps in a casino (I prefer blackjack), but my
- wife and I and some friends are planning a trip to Las Vegas in a few
- months, so I thought it was about time I learned enough to give it a
- try. I have a reasonably good grasp of the basics, but I am trying to
- figure out a strategy that will give me good odds and good action.
- From my reading I have learned that the best odds come from making
- Pass Line bets (or "Don't Pass" bets, which seems to offer slightly
- better odds) and then making maximum Odds bets whenever the
- opportunity presents itself. Assuming I am correct so far (if I am
- not, please share your views), my question is, do I hurt myself (in
- the long run) if I also make "Come" bets whenever possible, and follow
- these bets up by making Odds bets on them if possible? The advantage
- of this approach is that you can get a lot of action, and a lot of
- money wagered at even odds. The disadvantage is that you might find
- yourself with money on every possible point, and then lose all of it
- at once when a seven is thrown.
-
- My gut feeling says that it doesn't matter (again, in the long run) if
- you lose all of these odds bets at once, because until you do lose,
- you will be getting the best return the game has to offer. I
- understand that if the dice are against you for a while, it is
- possible to lose a lot very quickly, but I would think the opposite
- would also be true.
-
- So, assuming that a person has a sufficiently large bankroll to
- weather a spell of bad luck, does this strategy make any sense?
-
- If not, what is a better strategy? Or, what is YOUR strategy, and
- what is the logic behind it?
-
- One other question. If I use the approach I have described above, and
- if I bet $5 either on Pass or Don't Pass or Come or Don't Come, and if
- I always bet 2x odds, what would be a good size bank roll to start
- with so that I am not likely to be out of money within an hour? Let's
- assume that I can afford it (not true, but let's assume it).
-
- Thanks in advance for sharing.
-
-
-
- From: Conrad Kageyama/SNA, 76703,1010
- To: David Tallen, 71257,3427
-
- David.. first of all, I will qualify myself by stating that I'm
- certainly no expert, though craps interests me. Also, you NEVER have
- an even chance against the house. At best, PASS, DON'T PASS, COME, &
- DON'T COME w/2X odds still yields a 0.6% house advantage. With 1X
- odds, the advantage rises to 0.8%. With no odds, the house advantage
- goes up to 1.4%.
-
- That said, it's obvious that you do need to play the odds in order to
- have a reasonable chance at winning. More important, though, is your
- personal money management to limit your losses by recognizing when
- it's a no-win situation for you. And especially when you're ahead,
- you need to recognize when you are beginning to lose so that you don't
- give back all of your hard won earnings. Imho, your bankroll per
- session dictates the size of your basic bet by way of how many complete
- losses (lose everything on a pass) you can sustain.
-
- I might also suggest that you try downloading CRAP32.ZIP from the Las
- Vegas Library 2 here. It's a GREAT craps simulator for DOS. It's
- shareware at $25. I'm not the author, but I did upload it after
- looking at tons of other craps games.
-
-
-
- From: RICK PIKE, 74551,553
- To: David Tallen, 71257,3427
-
- Connie is right -- er, I mean, Wrong. What I mean is, he is an expert
- Wrong Way bettor.
-
- However, I think even he agrees that you really need to learn to play
- the game and understand the nuances before you start playing the
- altogether different psychological game of the DON'T PASS side.
-
- I'm not superstitious, and I don't have any craps superstitions, but I
- will bet that 90% of craps players do -- and it is really hard on
- DON'T bettors sometimes. You might make money, but you probably won't
- enjoy the psychological aspects of the game if you are not prepapred
- for it!
-
- Just a warning!
-
-
-
- From: RICK PIKE, 74551,553
- To: Conrad Kageyama/SNA, 76703,1010
-
- That's another aspect of craps -- even with the random factors, you
- can still destroy any logical money management system with a cold
- streak. The object of the game is to survive with your bank roll
- until a hot streak comes along -- and then to leave with the profits
- when the table turns back to random or cold.
-
- It's hard, hard, hard, but it's the only way to consistently win.
-
-
-
- From: RICK PIKE, 74551,553
- To: David Tallen, 71257,3427
-
- I'm sure others will tell you, but there is an excellent craps game
- simulator in the TRAVSIG-Lib2 library. It works just like a real LV
- craps table -- it has excellent reviews here (and from me).
-
- My craps strategy, which is fairly boring, is based on reading some
- money management strategies by several different authors, and
- comparing house advantage vs. return vs. random factors
-
- My strategy is the following (let's assume a $5 table with double
- odds). Place a $5 pass line bet. Establish a point. Double odds on
- the $5 pass line bet. Put down a $5 come bet. Roll dice. Come bet
- moves to a point, put double odds on it. Put down another come bet
- for $5. Roll dice. Come bet moves to a point, put double odds on it.
- Now stop and let the dice roll until you hit any of your bets.
-
- So, the overall strategy is to put the minimum on the line and take
- maximum (double) odds, establishing a point plus 2 other come points.
- If a come point hits, make another come bet so that you always have
- the point and two come bets working. Plus, you get a little return on
- the come bets if a 7 comes up.
-
- Sometimes, but not too often I'll place some money on the 6 and/or 8
- if the table seems hot, and swap it if my come bet establishes there.
-
- I never make any other bets (no FIELD, no Big-6/Big-8, and no center
- table/prop bets).
- When I want to tip the dealers, I place a bet on the pass line and
- say "this bet is for the dealers"
-
- This strategy works similarly if you play DON'T PASS/DON'T COME.
-
-
-
- From: Rick J. Price, 72762,2274
- To: RICK PIKE, 74551,553
-
- Your strategy is pass & 2 comes all backed with maximum odds. I've
- read that in other sources as well, and played it successfully and
- unsuccessfully. Since pass & come with odds are basically the same
- bet, what's the advantage to stopping at 3 table bets? Why not 4 or 5?
-
-
-
- From: Allen DeRosie, 74521,2714
- To: Conrad Kageyama/SNA, 76703,1010
-
- I was talking to some dealers this weekend up in LV. A "hot" table
- usually refers to a lot of points being made, which may or may not of
- course mean numbers are being rolled. Normally, they will use the
- reference, "he was a good shooter," or "they were pretty good
- shooters" if they rolled a lot of numbers but did not make a lot of
- points.
-
-
-
- From: Allen DeRosie, 74521,2714
- To: Conrad Kageyama/SNA, 76703,1010
-
- I might qualify that one bit farther. "Most" gamblers do not consider
- comeout 7/11's as a hot table. Since most of them play odds or
- double odds, if they have two comeout winners of seven and then
- miss one point with double odds they are behind $$-wise. Yet they
- have won two out of three bets. As we both know, that is why we
- prefer the don't side. It may seem like us WRONG WAY players have
- to lay the odds but in fact if you look at craps realistically app. 50%
- of all winning bets on the PASS side are 7's or 11's without odds, so
- they might win more bets then they lose, but they still lose money.
-
-
-
- From: RICK PIKE, 74551,553
- To: Rick J. Price, 72762,2274
-
- From my reading of various books and money management strategies,
- the house advantage starts getting too large for effective money
- management and expected rate of return after you have the point plus
- two come points on the table.
-
- Of course, you can certainly do more -- on a "hot" table I often place
- the 6 and 8; on a mediocre or cold table, I stick to the basic pass+2
- come scheme. This seems to work well for me, and I have had long play
- sessions and a fairly successful win:loss ratio.
-
-
-
- To: RICK PIKE, 74551,553
- From: Allen DeRosie, 74521,2714
-
- Statistically FYI the "comeout winners" 7 and 11 are supposed to make
- up 27% of all decisions. the other half of the winners (pass side)
- should be approximately 23% being point winners. Naturally, these
- don't take into account the 1.414 house edge (not counting odds which
- lower that).
-
- I know what you mean about the 7/11's, you may get two or three of
- them, then a point with double odds, lose it and you are even. Even
- though you just won 3 out of 4 bets.
-
-
-
- From: Conrad Kageyama/SNA, 76703,1010
- To: Del Ratcliffe, 72777,2245
-
- Del.. the Field bet sounds like a good move if the table is hot.
- Otherwise, the "show" for a 7 is something like 1 in 4 so after you've
- got a point and two numbers up, the 7 is primed and ready to goI
-
-
-
- From: adam lang, 76326,2272
- To: Conrad Kageyama/SNA, 76703,1010
-
- One in four for a seven, really Conrad! Dice are very simple. THere
- are 36 possible combinations, one for a 2, two for a 3, three for a 4,
- five for a 6, six for a 7, five for an 8, four for a 9, three for a
- 10, two for an 11, and one for a 12. Therefore the chance of rolling a
- seven is *exactly* 6/36 = 1/6.
-
-
-
- From: Del Ratcliffe, 72777,2245
- To: David Tallen, 71257,3427
-
- David, I use the same system as Rick Pike details in another message -
- Pass line/wi max ods + 2 come bets with max odds. I have found that,
- depending on the game (which I'll talk about later), I can usually
- cash in with a bankroll of $200.00 on a $5.00 table. If I go through
- that in, say, 30 - 45 minutes (strictly adhereing to the strategy, no
- prop bets), I feel I had a pretty cold run on the table. Well over
- half of the time, using this strategy, you'll find yourself "up" on
- the house at some point. The trick, if you ask me, is to know when to
- stop when you are "up"!
-
- When I say "depending on the game", I mean the rules of the house.
- Many casinos are getting very competitive in the games they offer. I
- recently played at a casino in Biloxi that offered $3.00 minimums, and
- a unique free-odds system: 3x on the 4-10, 4x on the 5-9, and 5x on
- the 6-8! This was a great game! It requires a little more starting
- bankroll to take full advantage of the odds, but the payoff is
- fantastic, IMHO. It makes it easier to keep track of your payoffs,
- also - a $5 wager with max odds returns $35.00, no matter what the
- point number is!
-
- One last thing - and I'd love some feedback from anyone on this - I
- will take a field bet every once in a while with this system! If the
- house pays triple on either 12 or 2, I'll occasionally take a field
- bet if my three points are the 5, 6 and 8. This way, I get a payoff
- on any number except a 7. (My field bet is always the amount of the
- original bet, not the odds bet). When the house pays trip on the 12
- or the 2, it lowers the vig to a point that is actually better than
- most bets on the table.
-
-
-
- From: David Tallen, 71257,3427
- To: All
-
- I want to thank everyone who has contributed to this discussion. I've
- learned a lot. It seems that most of you either make a Pass Line bet
- and follow it up with a couple of Come bets, or you bet the Wrong way
- and follow that up with a couple of Don't Come bets. This all makes
- sense, since these bets offer the best probability of winning (lowest
- vig).
-
- However, the numbers are still against you. Is there really any
- practical hope of winning money somewhat consistently over time? Or
- are we all simply hoping to "get lucky"? It's fine to set yourself a
- loss limit, and always walk away when you reach it, but does that mean
- that you will usually be walking away a loser?
-
- In Blackjack the secret, apparently, to winning is to be able to tell
- (by counting) when the odds are in your favor, and then bet more
- money. Winning a higher percentage of these larger bets will, in
- theory, earn you enough to overcome the larger number of (smaller)
- losing bets. However, since you never have a statistical advantage in
- craps, you cannot know when to place larger bets, so how do you win?
- Or are we saying that you cannot actually win at craps (once again,
- over the long run), but you can lose at as slow a rate as possible by
- betting smart?
-
- Like every gambler, I want to believe that it is possible to win, but
- I cannot ignore the mathematics. If what I am doing at the craps
- table is having a lot of fun and paying the casino a fee for the
- privilege of using their facilities, then I want to admit that to
- myself and go into the game with the understanding that it is not a
- money making endeavor, just a form of entertainment for which I am
- expected to pay a fee.
-
- I know that most gamblers do not want to over-analyze their particular
- game, because then it won't be any fun. They may have to face up to
- the fact that what they are doing does not make financial sense,
- though it may be entertaining. However, you are not in a casino right
- now. Sit back and reflect a moment. Do you believe the casino can be
- beaten at craps? Why do you believe it? How do you go about it? I
- assume that you MUST bet more than your standard bet some times, to
- offset the fact that you are going to lose more times than you win.
- How do you decide when you are going to bet more? Make a believer out
- of me.
-
-
-
- From: Allen DeRosie, 74521,2714
- To: David Tallen, 71257,3427
-
- I have studied the game and the mathematics of it. To answer you
- first question, no, mathematically you can't beat craps as compared to
- BJ.
-
- The only way to win is to have a VERY slow progression as you were
- losing but you would still have to set a very tight limit. The
- percentage can be offset with a mild losing progression. The problem
- is the streaks, not the house PC. It is the streaks (losing) that
- will defeat a money management system.
-
- I personally (don't side) set a small progression when I am losing.
- Additionally, I will not let any one shooter make over two points
- against me without "stepping aside" waiting for them to miss. Then
- continue with my progession with the next shooter.
-
- This is not failsafe, but hopefully, if the dice are generally
- streaking during a session, I will be there for the good streaks and
- standing aside during the bad streaks. One must remember that the
- dice do NOT remember so this is more of a strategy than a system to
- win guaranteed!!
-
-
-
- From: Conrad Kageyama/SNA, 76703,1010
- To: David Tallen, 71257,3427
-
- David.. as Allen has mentioned, it's the streaks that will either
- make you or break you. The idea behind money management is to minimize
- your losses while looking for that hot table to make a big win. I
- guess you can say that you're looking for that big win to offset a
- bunch of small losses. If you're talking about a "grind 'em out"
- strategy in craps where you can undoubtedly win almost every time you
- play, I don't think there is one. I've seen books with extremely
- complex strategies, but the bottom line seems to be the same: hold
- your losses to a minimum while waiting for the streak to make a big
- win.
-
- I, for one, am quite willing to walk away after only a few minutes at
- a table if things aren't going my way to try again another time. My
- "system" is based on those particular playing habits. Others like to
- play for at least an hour or more per session. I could go broke very
- quickly playing my system if I had a minimum playing time of one hour
- per session.
-
- I do look at the whole Vegas trip as an entertainment. I feel that
- the gambling portion of my trip is successful if I can win enough to
- cover all of my expenses, i.e., the Vegas trip is free. If I've got a
- few bucks left over, then I'm really in the pink. I don't go with the
- idea of making money, per se. I guess I should also point out that
- I'm seldom on the tables for more than 4 or 5 hours per day, a little
- here, a little thereI connie
-
-
-
- From: Dan Goldman, 71361,1636
- To: Allen DeRosie, 74521,2714
-
- PMJI, but I'm a very occasional craps player (I get to LV once a year,
- usually), and I don't understand this:
-
- >> Statistically FYI the "comeout winners" 7 and 11 are supposed to
- make up 27% of all decisions. <<
-
- There are 6 combinations of 7 and 2 of 11, for a total of 8 comeout
- roll winners. This means that the percentage of winning comeout rolls
- should be 8/36, or 22.22%, right? Or do I misunderstand your the
- 'decisions' nomenclature?
-
-
-
- From: Conrad Kageyama/SNA, 76703,1010
- To: Dan Goldman, 71361,1636
-
- Dan.. I see that Allen has already bailed on his statement and agrees
- with your 22.22%.
-
- BUT (sorry, Allen), I believe that he quoted it correctly the first
- time.
-
- His statement was that the "come-out winners make up 27% of all
- decisions". The key word is *decisions*. 7's and 11's are winners on
- the come-out roll, and that is a decision. A decision is the same as
- a pass, and there can be a number of *rolls* to a decision. For
- instance, say the point is 6. If the shooter makes a 6, s/he is a
- winner; if the shooter throws a 7, s/he is a loser. That is also a
- decision or a pass. Hence the total number of decisions include:
- winning 7s and 11s on the come-out roll, losing 2s, 3s, and 12s on the
- come-out roll, and any points (made or not made).
-
- I don't have the stats to back it up, but I do believe that I read in
- one of the craps books that 7s and 11s on the come-out roll do make up
- 27% of the decisions
-
-
-
- From: Conrad Kageyama/SNA, 76703,1010
- To: Charles Kroboth, Dallas, 70007,5521
-
- Charles.. I actually don't need to put it down on paper. Basically,
- it's just progessing the bets quicker and without "testing the
- waters". I jump to $50 bets if I get $200 ahead and $80 bets at $700
- ahead. The downside is that if you've struggled to get $200 ahead,
- increasing to $50 bets can potentially wipe out that gain in one pass.
- On the upside, if it is truly the start of a good run, you can
- multiply your winnings a lot quicker.
-
- Personally, I play conservative and would not use the more aggressive
- method unless I was ahead after a few sessions.
-
- Re CRAPS32 itself, the stats are only there for you to see what
- actually was rolled, either during that one session or cumulatively.
- I do reset the stats for each game I play in order to look at the
- distribution. As expected, if I've lost, the distribution is normally
- really skewed (lotsa numbers and few sevens, or lotsa elevens). The
- more the distribution approaches normal, the better I seem to do.
- That's pretty much common sense, though. When you're on a crap table
- and lotsa numbers are being rolled (and thus few sevens), the DO side
- is making a killing and I'm getting killedI connie
-
- P.S. it just sounds like you need to get out a little quicker if
- things aren't going your way.
-
-
-
- From: Allen DeRosie, 74521,2714
- To: Charles Kroboth, Dallas, 70007,5521
-
- Naturally, the more odds you can take the more the house percentage
- is lowered against you. BUT, with double odds on the pass side the
- house percentage is down to 0.8%, on the don't side 0.6%
-
- From there you don't drop the house percentage enough to make that
- much difference, IMO. The problem becomes money management. As I am
- a staunch believer after 30 years of testing gawd knows how many
- systems, it is the STREAKS that defeat most systems and LV knows it.
- That is why you see most house limits set so that from the smallest
- bet to the largest bet allowed, you cannot progress more than 8 times,
- doubling your bet. A $2 limit table will have a limit of $1000 for
- just this reason. If you were to double and win 8 times your bet would
- have to be $1024, over the limit.
-
- Multiple odds distort your MMngt. Here's how I would tell anyone to
- adjust accordingly. If you normally bet a TOTAL of $30, $10 on the
- pass and $20 odds when the point is established, then $30 should still
- be your total bet if you are say offered 10x odds. So, basically for
- convenience sake, I might lower my initial bet to $5 and take $25 odds
- or 5x. That way my total bankroll is never in jeopardy because of the
- higher odd's bets allowed.
-
- A long accepted 'rule' is that the ideal bet vs bankroll for optimum
- win/lose ratio is 20:1 That means if your bankroll per session is
- $300, then your bet should not total more than $15. If you bet more,
- then you risk a short run wiping you out. Any less and you are not
- taking full advantage of the money you have. Personally, I usually
- take or lay single odds and sometimes double. I find that more than
- enough risk of capital.
-
-
-
- From: Conrad Kageyama/SNA, 76703,1010
- To: Charles Kroboth, Dallas, 70007,5521
-
- No, I don't deposit money, but I do have a line of credit at the
- Mirage. The end result is the same. You take out markers to play
- which automatically puts you into the computer for rating. You don't
- have to have a line of credit or cash on deposit, though. All you
- need is a player's card, which is free. Then each time you step up to
- a table to play, you give them your card to "check in" and thus be
- tracked.
-
- Re the the stop-loss, as you surmised, it depends on where you're at.
- If I've been losing right out of the gate and get to that point
- immediately, then I'd probably quit. If I was on the high end of
- things, I might take another chance to see if I could get it going
- again if it was like one loss in a number of wins. My system is not a
- science as in many of the books. It's just the guidelines I use to
- keep myself from going overboard, either losing too much or giving
- back what I've already wonI connie
-
-
-
- From: Charles Kroboth, Dallas, 70007,5521
- To: Allen DeRosie, 74521,2714
-
- I have a question about the 20:1 ratio for determining bet size. If
- your session bank roll is $300 and your bet is $15, does that bet size
- have to include your odds bet or is that a beginning bet of $15? If
- your playing two numbers (like Connie's system) would that be $7 or $8
- on each number?
-
-
-
- From: Allen DeRosie, 74521,2714
- To: Charles Kroboth, Dallas, 70007,5521
-
- Yes, that includes odds. It goes to show you that most of us bet too
- high in relation to the bankroll we are willing to use. If you were
- betting two numbers then they are at risk with each shooter using
- Connie's example. Thus, the proper bankroll if you were betting $15
- and laying double odds of say $45 using the 5 or 9 as an example on
- the Dont side, then you would be risking $120 with each shooter.
- Therefore, your bankroll "should" be $2400 in order to sustain any
- kind of losing streaks. I actually should correct a statement. the
- 20:1 would be your total bankroll that you wish to expose for a trip
- not a session. So the above would still apply. I got many of the
- above 20:1 ratios and such from a book written years ago called,
- "Crossbetting and Proper Money Management". They used the 20:1 based
- on sports betting where the "book" charges 5% juice. The tables vary
- slightly for higher and lower percentages. The less juice, it
- fractionally reduces the ratio, but not by much.
-
-
-
- From: Allen DeRosie, 74521,2714
- To: Conrad Kageyama/SNA, 76703,1010
-
- It is irrelevant where you stand there or leave. That is purely a
- psychological reason for leaving as we both know since the dice don't
- have a memory. "Losing streaks" by my definition, is merely some
- period of time that you or anyone would choose to lose and then leave.
-
- In your particular case, since you would be betting approx $30 plus
- single odds on two bets (on average), and using 5 and 9 as the
- "average" point, accordingly you would be wagering or risking $150 per
- shooter. Some times a little more sometimes a little less.
- Therefore, the "recommended" bankroll for you to go to LV with to
- gamble with would be $3,000 in order to properly have a chance of
- winning before you might "bust out". Anything more than that, you
- should be betting more. Any less and you should be betting less.
-
- You can see the logic given your own situation. It would not be
- unheard of for you to take a hit (loss) of $210 per shooter if 4/10
- were your numbers and you had to put double odds on one number. Using
- the logic of a $3000 bankroll, that would allow you 14 "losing"
- sessions per trip, or about 4 a day on a three day two night trip.
- Four losing sessions would not be that unrealistic if things were not
- working out. That just allows you your full potential to win. I am
- not suggesting you lose $3000, just that that is the "ideal" bankroll
- given the size of bets your are risking.
-
-
- # # # # #
-
-
- Messages saved by Las Vegas Joe, 71613,23
- Uploaded, Edited by Jerry Schneider, 76702,667
- for the Las Vegas library of the Travel Forum on CompuServe
-
-
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