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- Newsgroups: misc.activism.progressive
- Path: sparky!uunet!gatech!ukma!mont!pencil.cs.missouri.edu!rich
- From: odin@world.std.com (Hank Roth)
- Subject: "Progressive" News & Views/poetry
- Message-ID: <1992Aug28.211036.26753@mont.cs.missouri.edu>
- Followup-To: alt.activism.d
- Originator: rich@pencil.cs.missouri.edu
- Sender: news@mont.cs.missouri.edu
- Nntp-Posting-Host: pencil.cs.missouri.edu
- Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
- Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 21:10:36 GMT
- Approved: map@pencil.cs.missouri.edu
- Lines: 455
-
- <<< via P_news >>>
- SUBJECT: "Progressive" News & Views/poetry
- FROM: Hank Roth, Moderator
-
- This echo conference provides an alternative for those who are
- interested in *LEFT* wing "progressive" issues. The object of this
- conference is to provide a cross-fertilization of ALTERNATIVE views,
- to propose and discuss new world visions, to present ideas that challenge
- prevailing views; and to advance the cause of PEACEFUL RESOLUTION of
- matters that greatly concern us: the environment, the economy, politics,
- feminism, and nationalism, etc. and also to vehemently oppose chauvinism,
- gay bashing, racism, antisemitism, etc.
-
- Verbal abuse and reactionary attacks WILL NOT BE TOLERATED; there are
- more than enough conferences for those who find sport in that kind of
- agitation to find their avenues of expression. Be forewarned, if anyone
- consistently violates the rules for this echo conference their access
- will be cut.
-
- We will discuss a myriad of issues; from racism, abortion clinic
- bombings, union-busting, free trade, humanism, liberation theology,
- imperialist wars, illiteracy, rape of the environment, ignorance,
- and bigotry, etc. in an effort to provide better understanding for
- root causes and agendas around these issues. As moderator, if and
- when the discussion wonders too far afield, I see it as my function
- to provide a focus and to offer direction.
-
- The OBJECT of this conference is to bring *PROGRESSIVES* together
- as a COALITION, as an Affinity Group for SEEKING JUSTICE,
- to explore ALTERNATIVES, and to encourage the PEACEFUL RESOLUTION
- OF CONFLICT; as well as providing moral support and camaraderie;
- and I will not hesitate to remind those in the conference of these
- goals.
- STATEMENT OF PURPOSE:
- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- P_news is based on the proposition that all men and women are
- entitled to certain basic rights: good and affordable health
- care, food, shelter, liveable wages, equal rights and
- opportunities, and this echo conference is dedicated to opposing
- racism, sexism, chauvinism, anti-Semitism, gay bashing, and
- neofascism. The purpose of this P_news is to examine issues that
- cause despair and alienation, to promote justice, and to bring
- like-minded "progressive" thinking people together.
- ~~~~~~~~~~~
- This echo should be for the purpose of sharing experiences and
- feelings, to provide news and information of interest and as a
- way to learn and gather strength from each other.
-
- Be prudent. Don't bash anyone. Let us have reasonable, intellectual
- discourse and let us keep it progressive, not regressive.
-
- This is a PROGRESSIVE echo to bring like-minded "progressive"
- thinking people (of various left wing tendencies) together
- through this echo conference and our newsletter (available upon
- request). Our objective is to build SOLIDARITY and a COALITION
- for peace & justice (though not necessarily a consensus on all
- matters).
-
- This echo conference is for the purpose of exploring our
- positions from a *LEFT PERSPECTIVE*. We are not about to fall
- into any kind of First Amendment trap that says all views are
- welcome here. There are many conferences where right wing
- positions and temperment are welcome, including harassment,
- racial terrorism, etc., and in many of them, very little of
- substance can cut through the mud slinging. That is
- counterproductive and not acceptable in this echo conference. So
- while those kinds of reactionary positions are clearly evident
- and sport on many other echo conferences, I REPEAT: they are
- not welcome here. This is not that kind of conference. If that is
- your game, join them, not us.
-
- On this echo conference, we expect some divisiveness; we may not
- all agree, BUT we are looking towards common goals. This is first
- and foremost, an AFFINITY GROUP. Let us together explore those
- "NEW VISIONS" and look for COMMONALITY.
-
- This conference also serves as a conduit for information from
- other Left Wing sources, to-wit: (to name just a few) Zeta
- Magazine, Workers Vanguard, PWW, FIT, The Progressive, The
- Guardian, The Militant, Workers World, In These Times, The
- Nation, The National Liberation News Service, PeaceNet,
- ConflictNEt, NY Transfer News, Anews, as well as progressive
- newsgroups on Usenet and other sources.
-
- POETRY
-
- Poetry is encouraged with certain qualifications. One can say so
- very much with metaphor. One can speak with passion and often
- touch the core of an issue using poetry, yours and others. Read a
- good poem lately? Share it with us. Our only requirment is that
- it be relative to the "HUMAN CONDITION" and sparingly
- interspersed between other comments. Anotherwords, this is an
- echo conferance PRIMARILY for LEFT WING discussion and only
- incidentally for poetry. As a suggestion you might like to post a
- poem and SOME COMMENTS ABOUT YOUR POETRY, i.e., what it says
- specifically to you about human suffering, aspirations, angst,
- etc.
-
- Poetry often serves as the conscience of society. It is
- interesting that many people who have had an impact (good and
- bad) on history have also been poets. To name just a few: Karl
- Marx, Mao-Tse-Tung, Stalin, Shelley, Byron, Pushkin, Sean
- O'Casey, Yehuda Amichai, Yevgeny Yevtushenko, Henry David
- Thoreau. Some probably come to your mind as well.
-
- ja: writes:
- HR> Hank Roth writes to TF [name deleted]:
- Hank Roth writes to ja:
-
- ja: Freedom of speech IS absolute. In the first amendment, it
- ja: states no restrictions. I believe we deserve an ABSOLUTE
- ja: freedom to speak. I don't believe like you do, that only us
- ja: liberals have a right to free speech, and everyone else should
- ja: be silenced. That's hypocratic, and that's wrong.
-
- HR> We have libel laws, slander laws, and stare decisis (court decisions)
- HR> which limit words and create a "clear and present danger" or that
- HR> constitutes "fighting words." And echo conferences also have rules and
- HR> this one is limited to Left wing discussion and doesn't exist for
- HR> your pleasure or Right wing lunacy.
-
- ja: Those laws are so ambiguous it's not funny. Anyone can claim
- ja: libel, slander, sedition, etc.
-
- All laws are ambiguous but nevertheless these are the laws which
- govern our behavior and they change over time through court
- decisions. But by virtue of their existence they do provide
- restraint, without which there would be no protection for the
- weak, for dissenters, and for those who are not in power. I
- learned that in law school I also learned that that unfortunately
- most laws are based on class and are for the protection of
- property, not human beings. But unrestrained actions without
- laws, as with unrestrained capitalism becomes predatory.
- However, this defense of specific policy in this conference is
- not about censorship, it is about the pursuit of equality.
-
- It seems like we are fighting the same fight over and over again
- to bring everybody up to speed. A good place to start for you and
- others who need a better understanding of what freedom means and
- the use of language to obscure real freedom would be in A
- PEOPLE'S HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES, by Howard Zinn. I won't
- quote anything from Zinn now but may come back to it at a later
- time. I will quote Jacque Roux however.
-
- "Liberty is but an empty illusion as long as one class
- can let the others starve. Equality is but an empty
- illusion as long as the rich ... decides over life and
- death of his fellowmen." (1793)
-
- ja:I know FidoNet is not a democracy, but admit it, you ARE
- ja:acting as a censor, silencing all opposing views, as you think
- ja:your views are perfect. I know my views aren't perfect, and an
- ja:opposing views often helps
-
- Did I say my views were perfect? No one can say that. I don't
- want to be in a net where people have all the answers. I rather
- be in a discussion where people can question their feelings, not
- resort to name calling, which seems to be a favorite sport for
- [names deleted]. I've read their posts on other conferences and
- so has everyone else here. If Fido didn't have conferences for
- various purposes they might as well relabel them with numbers.
- The best articulation of a position doesn't necessarily make it
- correct either. And of course jade, no one has a monopoly on the
- truth. Truth is a personal observation, one that [names deleted]
- has sought to impose on us before. Just as beauty is in the eyes
- of the beholder, as I have been told on this conference by
- others, so is the truth. History is difficult enough to record
- when you are a witness, but even eye witnesses can vary and
- disagree, depending on whose side they are on, what agenda they
- are promoting and what they knew that led up to the event, etc.
- It has often been said that only the winners write the history
- books. America's history books give mostly a favorable history of
- our founding but the Indians would give quite another perspective
- to the history of the Indian Wars, etc.
-
- If our views were perfect we wouldn't need a conference to
- discuss them. There are many currents of left wing views
- represented here from socialists, communists, anarchists, social
- democrats, Trotskysts, and maybe even a few Maoists. And I'm
- sorry if I left anyone out. We wish to discuss and exchange
- alternative views, but not right wing views. There is nothing to
- learn from bigots, McCarthyites, and fascists that we don't
- already know. They demonstrate their intent with their anti-
- People diatribes and attempt at intimidation.
-
- ja: point out inconsistencies, and hypocrisies. If you can't
- ja: take constructive criticism, you cease to think.
-
- I don't know how much you know about the left wing but it is
- constantly in psychoanalysis figuratively speaking. Every
- current, every Internationale, every vanguardist group is
- critical of each other. But one thing they almost all have in
- common is their opposition to the right. The problem is we always
- think; it is the right wing that uses simplistic answers and
- refuses to think.
-
- HR> In which case you had no business entering this echo. You should have
- HR> read the echo rules and complied therewith. You are attempting to
- HR> censor our views by imposing your own and shouting us down, using our
- HR> bandwidth for your "red baiting."
-
- ja:I don't think he's censoring your views, he's providing an
- ja:alternative view. We must always continue to see things from a
- ja:different view.
-
- I have already answered this. his alternative is not the
- alternative view. Unfortunately it is the current populist
- Amerikkkan view. It is a sick, foul mouthed, pseudo-intellectual
- view which we reject unequivocably. It is a reactionary view that
- is anti-humanitarian. It is diametrically opposite to any of the
- positions of any *LEFT* wing current as I previously mentioned.
-
- ja:We must doubt everything, and everyone, and
- ja:an opposition helps us question everything.
-
- Did you say that or did I? (De Omnibus Est Dubatandum) Certainly
- we must doubt everything because there have been so many lies. As
- a former employee of the National Security Agency I have seen the
- lies and been apart of it. When I worked in the White House and
- in the War Room at the Pentagon I never questioned anything
- because there was only one voice---and it was the voice of people
- like Giwer and Flynn. It was my experiences there and my exposure
- to this *Left* truth that opened my eyes. I don't need to listen
- to the voice of liars, of brainwashed lackeys of right wing
- oppression. Sorry, that isn't productive. It doesn't teach
- anything. It just shows how stupid and insensitive people can be.
- I am seeking New Visions and that is very much apart of what this
- echo conference should be.
-
- > TF> shown how you will banish a person simply for disagreeing
- > TF> with your absurd
-
- HR> No, we will ban someone who is out of line, who does not follow the
- HR> rules as posted in the Fido Echolist and frequently posted in this
- HR> conference.
-
- ja:Who decides who is out of line? If we're here to better and
- ja:strengthen our liberal views, wouldn't fighting some
- ja:opposition off in a clean debate be very helpful?
-
- I would ask you to define "clean". Do you see anything clean
- about Flynn's constant tirades and red baiting. I don't. And as
- far as "who decides?" I do. I'm the moderator.
- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-
- LIBERTY TO HOLD PLEAS
-
- "Censorship ends in logical completeness when nobody is allowed
- to read any books except the books nobody can read." (George
- Bernard Shaw)
-
- There is absolutely no censorship of the LEFT wings views
- presented here, and anybody has the "freedom", the "absolute"
- freedom to start any echo they want to present other views, if
- there is enough interest in doing so and anybody who wishes to do
- so can read what they say there.
-
- The legal definition of freedom is: "The power of acting, in the
- character of a moral personality, according to the dictates of
- the will, without other check, hindrance, or prohibition than
- such as may be imposed by just and necessary laws and the duties
- of social life." (Black's Law Dictionary 5th ed) There are no
- absolutes. Freedoms are always, ALWAYS, regulated by law.
- Reasonable regulations and prohibitions are imposed in the
- interests of the community and society.
-
- "Liberty on its postive side, denotes the fullness of individual
- existence; on its negative side it denotes the necessary restraint
- on all, which is needed to promote the greatest possible amount of
- liberty for each." (IBID)
-
- There is also what is known as the "liberty to hold pleas", that
- is, the liberty of having a court of one's own, the privilege of
- holding pleas within one's own manor. Specific echo conferences
- could be likened to this liberty. And with regard to providing
- news, there is the "liberty of the press", which is a concurrent
- right to print or publish or in the case of the electronic media
- to publish one's own position or perception of the truth. It
- doesn't require that I also publish your conception of the truth.
- For that you need your own conference or newspaper. An article,
- unfavorable to the U.S. Government, which I wrote for the old
- LINE OF MARCH newspaper, would not be acceptable for publication
- in the conservative National Review.
-
- We all advocate the First Amendment so our own rights won't be
- eroded, just as the fascists use it to advance their own
- insidious hate philosophy. These revisionists rewrite history to
- promote a radical right-wing agenda. The use the First Amendment
- and all the other tools of a free society to gain their end.
- Hitler rode into power on the wings of democracy also.
-
- The falacy to thinking that through debate ideas will be
- exchanged and reason will ultimately emerge victorious is in
- thinking that everyone is as good a spokesman as everyone else.
- Unfortunately as Hannah Arendt points out in ORIGIN OF
- TOTALITARIANISM, emotionalism wins the day. I agree with Hannah
- Arendt, who stated that propaganda does contain an emotional mass
- appeal and therefore a superiority for converting men to its
- cause, because it is simplistic and people love to blame someone
- else. Logic may appeal to an intelligencia and free thinkers, but
- not to those already predisposed to certain ideas and strongly
- entrenched prejudices. This is why demogogues can win elections,
- and by popular appeal can be swept into positions of authority
- where they present a real threat to the rest of us.
-
- Debate often isn't really debate. If you read the other echos you
- know that. Some of of our conferees have expressed their
- frustration to me privately. What happens on these other echos is
- too often a bunch of wise guys try to out insult each other,
- trying to out perform each other with clever cliches and popular
- fad positions. The truth becomes the victim.
-
- What some "liberals" and "apologists for class order" are
- attempting to do is to redefine what is or is not considered the
- proper vehicle for "debate". They just don't like this kind of
- forum. There are all kinds of forums and a moderator decides
- what are acceptable guidelines for a particular forum and the
- guidelines for this particular forum works just fine. In fact
- better than fine because this kind of forum doesn't have to
- provide a platform for those who would villify, dehumanize,
- and promote hate. The Left rejects the horrific attempt
- at mind control by the rulers of Capitalism to manipulate the
- masses. We know that we cannot reason with unreasonable
- men (& women). And their stubborn reluctance to accept truth
- will impinge on our ability to say those things, so we don't need
- to provide that kind of imbalance in our forums. In furtherance
- of a higher ideal this forum provides EQUITABLE unrestrained
- "freedom of speech" for a *LEFT* OPPOSITION to the established
- class order.
-
- P_news as an alternative
- "progressive"
- *LEFT* wing echo conference:
-
- The misuse of words by implicit redefinition, the selective
- application of words and other forms of verbal manipulation is
- the favorite past time of right wing ideologues and for them
- words like "progressive" and "oppression" or "freedom" and
- "exploitation" are indistinguishable, and their doublespeak
- is a smokescreen and not unlike the attempt by the right to
- woo the left.
-
- These are conferees on other FidoNET echo conferences that use
- taglines that say: "kill all the liberals" and "the only good
- Communist is a dead Communist." For them progressive means
- unleashing market forces in accord with IMF criteria, increasing
- inequality and malnutrition and intervention in the internal
- affairs of other countries when they won't enslave themselves to
- the U.S.
-
- There are always constraints on OUR freedom of speech and it is the
- dissenters' lack of access to the mass media that threatens our
- right to be heard by the general public. Thats means our freedom
- is in an important sense only a personal freedom with limited
- public and social significance.
-
- Of course the dissenters are FREE to start their own newspaper or
- start their own echo conference, which is what we have done. This
- is the echo of dissent. Just as we need an opposition political
- party in this country, we are the echo conference of opposition.
- And the opposition isn't compelled to capitulate to the right
- wing power structure. Let them start their own conferences and
- they have. There are plenty of them.
-
- And of course freedom of speech is important which is why we
- insist on our freedom of speech on this echo conference to
- express our *Left* wing views without interference from those who
- would "kill all the liberals" and though they mouth lofty ideas
- about respecting our right to speak, they would shout us down,
- using the same lame arguments we have all heard time and time
- again.
-
- Having our own echo conference provides a little balance and
- also provides for a free flow of ideas, ideas that before in other
- venues were opposed and shouted down with flaming pejoratives
- and denegrated because we are concerned with a higher sense of
- humanity and opposed to greed and selfishness.
-
- And that is why we don't want the right wing to spew their hate,
- gay bashing, red baiting, and chauvinism here nor will I, as
- moderator permit it. I have received E-mail from several of
- our conferees imploring me to get tough with them and I assured
- them that I will.
-
- When they won't respect our net policies, I will request that
- their sysops cut their access. And if they go to another board we
- will do it there also. If a sysop won't cut their access the
- sysop's feed will be cut by the HUB. If some miscreant who has
- had his or her access cut but moves to another BBS and persistently
- violates our echo rules I'll take the complaint first to the Net
- Echo Coordinator and perhaps to the the Region Echo Coordinator,
- or even to the National (Zone) Echo Coordinator if need be, and
- their access to all of Fidonet could be terminated.
-
- "P_news" PROGRESSIVE news, views & poetry
-
- There are ALTERNATIVES. This is an echo conference for
- articulating ideas that challenge prevailing views. Except for
- "Anews" and very few others, there is a shortage of alternative
- networks. BUT NOW, there is "progressive" news, views & poetry.
-
- An alternative echo to discuss NEW VISIONS? Discuss news
- from the alternative press and on Anews, nytransfer, peaceNet,
- ecoNet, conflictNet with a little poetry thrown in.
-
- The "P" also stands for a "Peaceful" resolution of conflicts,
- wherever possible and not wars for oil or tyranny or right wing
- dictatorships because they are supportive of exploitive social
- orders. No more genocide in our name.
-
- It stands for "Poetry", that contains social commentary, and
- relates to the human condition. Poetry contains a language of its
- own. It is metaphor and images, a painting on the canvass of the
- mind, using words to evoke feelings and stir the sleeping soul.
-
- And it stands for "Progressive", that tendency for justice and
- more humane attitudes and a recognition that abuses will occur
- unless we vigilently struggle for the protection of the weakest,
- the dowtrodden and the most unfortunate among us.
-
- It is the recognition that we desperately need a clean
- environment, affordable housing, decent mass transportation. We
- need sanity and to vigorously move away from the conspiratorical
- hypocracy that rules. We need democracy for all the people and we
- don't have it, not enough of it, and we aim to get it, and that's
- human nature----or put in another way, in the nature of our
- humanity, to insist on decency, peace, and social justice.
-
- This echo is for PROGRESSIVE positions only. NO flames! NO right
- wing debate. NOT a forum for reactionary politics.
-
- Hank Roth, moderator
-
- ###### Work for Peace & Justice #######
-
-
- Anyway the Left wind blows ...
- //\ /\\
- || * \ . . / * ||
- \\____\X/____//
- / * /O\ * \
- \__/ " \__/
-
- ************************************************************************
- P_news is on the FidoNET national backbone. If you would like a
- really different approach, a *REAL* ALTERNATIVE to the mainstream
- echo conferences your BBS now carries, ask your sysop to AREAFIX
- P_news and give your users a unique alternative.. We also have a
- newsletter. If you want to be on our mailing list send your
- "snailmail" address to: odin@world.std.com // Hank Roth ////
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
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