NetNews Usenet Archive 1993 #3/NN_1993_3.iso/spool/comp/sys/mac/advocacy/3804

Internet Message Format | 1993-01-24 | 5.6 KB

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Path: sparky!uunet!stanford.edu!nntp.Stanford.EDU!leland.Stanford.EDU!kocks
From: [e-mail] (Peter Kocks)
Subject: NeXTstep vs. Taligent
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Mr News)
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
References:  <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 93 19:23:22 GMT
Lines: 92

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robert Alexander Wyatt) writes:
|>

|> In comp.sys.mac.advocacy article <[e-mail]> you wrote:
|> >
|>
|> > "Pink/TalOS - will even leapfrog NeXtStep 3 from what I can dig up. It
|> > will over CPU enablers for different platforms (RISC, 680x0, Pentium?,
|> > x86s).
|>
|> > The most interesting concept is that programs will be able to
|> > borrow objects from one prg. to another. The prg. will have to
|> > "announce" it's objects to the OS, other apps (possibly from the same
|> > or other soft vendors) can look up the object, and if available, it
|> > will use it. Think of it, one dictionary object used by your Word
|> > processor, database, and spreadsheet. The object can be applied in
|> > various different ways. Like in the wp it would be used to check
|> > text words. But if the dict. obj. can access various data structs.
|> > then in theory it can read words stored in a draw file! Now that's
|> > power that even NeXTStep doesn't offer. They do have OOP but on a
|> > per app. basis. Something a la C++ but better. I could be wrong
|> > does NS 4 offer object OS/app sharing ?

NeXT does not offer exactly these features now, but it may be in
NS 4.  In NS 3 you can do  something very similar with "services" and
object links.  There are a couple of points worth making about the
whole subject of a true object oriented user environments.  By object
oriented user environment  (OOUE) I mean the idea that the user can
mix and match applications (objects) to create, for example, their own
perfect word processor.  Typically you hear people talk about a document
centered enviroment when they are talking about their version of OOUE.  This
is because in  a very real sense the application and the file (the application's
data) become one.  This is an exceedingly  cool idea, but it is kind of
wierd to use.  You have to forget about applications and files and start
thinking in terms of documents.  This takes some getting used to and I
have yet to be convinced that Joe/Jane user will jump over to this
new model quickly.

NeXT does not offer this yet, but they're very close.  Closer than I think
many people realize.  For example, NeXT object links could be made into
an OOUE.  Currently, object links are essentially the same as the publish
and subscribe features of Sys. 7.  BUT, they *are* object links, not simply
a means of automatically updating things that would normally be cut and
paste.  It is not a big leap to make these object links entirely transparent.
That is, you could open a FrameMaker document, section off a part of the
page, insert a Virtuoso document, and then use the Virtuoso document from
within the FrameMaker document.  You might also put in a few spreadsheet cells
from your favorite spreadsheet.  This is really is looking like an OOUE
to me.

I know almost nothing about Taligent, but I suspect it will take them a
long time to catch up with NeXT.  The first thing to notice is that there
is nothing in the NeXT os that prevents them from making a complete OOUE.
The most important feature is that Mach (and I don't mean unix here, I mean
***Mach***) provides messaging.  You cannot make a good OOUE without good
messaging.  Another critical feature is Obj-C.  Taligent is trying to
make an OOUE in C++.  While C++ is the industry standard it requires strong
type casting.  This means that every object must know about every concievable
message (or method in C++) it will call before runtime.  This makes
making an OOUE essentially impossible.  So, they must be hacking a weak
type casting system into C++.  This is certainly possible, but a royal
pain.  I've heard Taligent engineers complain about this.  Finally, no
matter how you want people to use the new operating system you must
provide for the option of using an application/file based model.  People will
want to do what they did before.  In short, Taligent will have to have
to provide Mac compatiblilty.  I believe this is already planned.

Much of the above may already be coded.   But, as far as I have heard none
of it is released.  The messaging OS is not released.  The C++ weak casting
messaging system is not released.  The Mac compitibity is not released.
Each one of these will require extensive testing and debugging.  Also any
new os will have bugs that the user discovers.  ALl of this will take
a long, long, time.  I don't even want to guess and I suggest nobody
try to guess.

While the NeXT is not a true OOUE it is getting close and there is
nothing in the design of NeXTStep that prevents NeXT from making
a complete OOUE like the one planned by Taligent.   By the time
Taligent comes out, I bet that you will be able to mix and match
applications on the NeXT.  The NeXT will have (already does) have a
stable uderlying operating system (mach) and several (not as many as the
Mac) key applications.  If Taligent is a little late, NeXT may well be
on the way to having an object oriented filing system.

I would not necessarily suggest buying a NeXT now.  The time for NeXT has
yet to come.   But, when NeXT starts to go up against the Taligents
of the world, they will likely come out ahead.

--Peter Kocks
  [e-mail]