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- Xref: sparky talk.rape:3022 alt.politics.correct:6122
- Newsgroups: talk.rape,alt.politics.correct
- Path: sparky!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eff!news.oc.com!spssig.spss.com!uchinews!ellis!tb13
- From: tb13@ellis.uchicago.edu (leon joel gross)
- Subject: Re: Man rapes Man
- Message-ID: <1993Jan8.183024.25180@midway.uchicago.edu>
- Sender: news@uchinews.uchicago.edu (News System)
- Reply-To: tb13@midway.uchicago.edu
- Organization: University of Chicago
- References: <GPRIORES.93Jan5113335@fish.oracle.com> <1993Jan6.001106.8530@midway.uchicago.edu> <GPRIORES.93Jan7125615@fish.oracle.com>
- Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 18:30:24 GMT
- Lines: 136
-
- In article <GPRIORES.93Jan7125615@fish.oracle.com> gpriores@oracle.com (gordon prioreschi) writes:
- >In article <1993Jan6.001106.8530@midway.uchicago.edu> tb13@ellis.uchicago.edu (leon joel gross) writes:
- >> In article <GPRIORES.93Jan5113335@fish.oracle.com> gpriores@oracle.com (gordon prioreschi) writes:
- >>>In article <1993Jan4.163415.3330@midway.uchicago.edu> tb13@ellis.uchicago.edu (leon joel gross) writes:
- >>>> [The word "gay" is] offensive for a variety
- >>>>of reasons for a variety of people.
- >>>Tell that to the organizers of San Francisco's annual "Gay Pride" parade.
- >> Go back and read the context.
- >> It's offensive in this context; the context was one of calling a
- >>rape of a man by a man 'gay'.
- >
- >I thought you were objecting to the use of the word "gay" in
- >general, not specifically in the context of rape.
-
- You were wrong.
-
- >If I remember the context correctly, the case cited was one of "gay
- >acquaintance rape"; I did assume that the principals were gay.
-
- That's the problem; when you hear 'gay' rape, you assume the
- participants are gay, and they might not be.
-
- > It
- >doesn't matter, though:
-
- Yes it does.
- >> Is the act gay? Probably not.
- >
- >The act of sexual contact between two men, consensual or not, is by
- >definition homosexual, even if the participants are not.
-
- Whose definition? This is insane. In some countries they torture
- prisoners by hooking up electrodes to their genetals. Under our
- laws, in addition to other crimes, this is sexual assault. Is it
- 'homosexual?'. Remember that sexual assault is a violent crime
- (in Illinois, Class X, like kidnapping and attempted murder).
- So is kicking someone in the crotch. Is that 'homosexual'? It's
- assault, and it might even be considered sexual assault (I don't
- know the law on this.)
-
-
- >> I assume that gay people would be offended by calling a rape 'gay'.
-
- >Would I be offended if a rape were called "straight"? Probably not.
-
- But part of what drives homophobia is the fear that gay men will
- rape or violate straight men. If you were afraid of being beat
- up because people thought of straight men as rapists, (assuming
- for the sake of the argument that you are straight, since I don't
- know) then it would be parallel.
-
- >> And I assume that male survivors who are straight do not want to
- >>think of themselves as 'gay' or having participated in a 'gay'
- >>action.
-
- >They probably don't want to think of themselves as having been
- >sexually used by a man, either, but that doesn't change the fact that
- >they have.
-
- They have been violated and have been used in a violent way.
-
- >> I never said the word 'gay' was offensive. The word 'Jew' is not
- >>offensive, but the description of banking fraud as 'jewish' is.
- >
- >The description of rape in general as "gay" would be offensive (as
- >well as ridiculous).
-
- But some people refer to all male-male rape as 'gay', and that is
- offensive and ridiculous. There is a lot of male-male rape in
- prisons; in most cases, neither the attacker or victim is gay.
- It's incorrect to call male-male rape gay.
-
- >"Jewish" is an adjective that is not applicable to the act of fraud
- >itself; clearly, in describing a banking fraud as "Jewish" I would be
- >describing some person or organization involved, not the fraud itself.
-
- But that's the problem. It is true that Ivan Boesky is Jewish.
- Are his crimes Jewish crimes? Remember, there are anti-semitic
- stereotypes about Jews controlling banks, and money. I would
- object to calling this a Jewish crime, even though Boesky is Jewsh.
-
- >Not so with rape. Describing a rape as "homosexual" or "gay" clarifies
- >the description of the act itself; it doesn't necessarily describe any
- >of the principals.
-
- Why not just say 'a man raped a man'?
- Or rape of a man by a man?
-
- >I can describe exactly how the act of "gay" rape
- >differs from "regular" rape; I cannot do the same with "Jewish"
- >banking fraud.
-
- What's 'regular' rape? What's that supposed to mean?
- Is it a man raping a woman that he knows? That he doesn't know?
- A man raping a child that he knows? That he doesn't know?
- A man raping a male child? A female child? A woman raping
- a male child? A woman raping a female child?
-
- Seeing 'gay rape' as not 'regular' rape, means that victims
- are not treated equally by law enforcement, social services,
- etc. These organizations do not treat male and female victims
- equally (because most of the training is about female victims,
- the advocacy groups and activist groups are feminist, and people
- have their own views on gender, preference, etc) which is
- contrary to equal protection under the law.
-
- >Thus, it is semantically (if not politically) correct to use the term
- >"homosexual [or gay] rape".
-
- When a 13 year -old boy is raped (e.g. one of Dahmer's victims),
- what about it is gay or homosexual? Most men who attack boys
- are straight. For the attacker it's about power, not sex. For
- the victims, it's violence. Why consider this a homosexual act?
-
- >> Too bad there is nothing in news.announce about teaching people
- >>to read and quote in context.
-
- >Too bad there is nothing in news.announce about teaching people not to
- >make silly, gratuitous inflammatory comments.
-
- You admitted yourself that your objection was based on a misreading.
-
- And someone elsee wotte about the damage done to male survivors when
- people (including themselves) think of the rape as 'gay' or
- 'homosexual.' This is pretty wide-spread, almost universal. If you
- care about this, you can actually read stuff (books, training
- manuals, articles, etc), or talk to male survivors. If you don't
- care about them and their problems, and demonstrate that in
- talk.rape, then expect negative responses.
- >
- > Cordially,
- >
- > -g
-
- Leon Gross
- I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV>
-