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- Path: sparky!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!usc!rpi!batcomputer!munnari.oz.au!uniwa!DIALix!tillage!gil
- From: gil@tillage.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick)
- Newsgroups: sci.environment
- Subject: Save the Planet and the Economy at the Same time!
- Distribution: world
- Message-ID: <726142595snx@tillage.DIALix.oz.au>
- References: <1993Jan3.192746.1372@sactoh0.sac.ca.us>
- Date: Mon, 04 Jan 93 10:16:35 GMT
- Organization: STAFF STRATEGIES - Anthropologists & Training Agents
- Lines: 173
-
-
- In article <1993Jan3.192746.1372@sactoh0.sac.ca.us> kberry@sactoh0.sac.ca.us writes:
-
- > The key assertion of my post was that "providing education,
- > reducing poverty, and raising living standards" is not a realistic
- > solution to the world population problem since accomplishing this
- > worldwide would be "nearly impossible."
-
- My problems differ from yours, and your providing me with solutions
- based on your own experience assuming that they have a world wide
- applicability is plainly untenable.
-
- > Gil responds by stating that the trend is to raising living
- > standards on a local scale via "community empowerment." He shares
- > my doubt that "a global economy comprised entirely of first-world
- > countries could exist," but suggests that is not the issue. He says
- > the issue instead is one of distribution: "the U.S. consuming so
- > much more than it needs while so many others starve for anything
- > at all."
-
- No, I said the issue is one of complementary development through the
- process of empowering local people to look after themselves, to date
- grievously inhibited by the imposition of "global solutions" by the
- few countries with the power to do so, to their own benefit. The US
- does not consume so much by sheer chance or good fortune, and while
- the issue has been flogged to death I much prefer to take a "wait and
- see" approach.
-
- > Unless we agree that worldwide population growth is a significant
- > environment problem, there is no point in furthering this
- > discussion.
-
- There is *NO* worldwide population growth. There *is* growth and over-
- population in many areas (not even many countries; yet *parts* of many
- countries and not other parts), while other areas are virtually empty.
- That is not to say that over-population in China is not of concern to
- Australia; we would be foolish not to be monitoring the situation very
- closely since it poses a potential threat to our stability.
-
- But essentially, it is their problem and they are the ones working on
- it.
-
- > Assuming you're still with me, the debate seems to be: A) What
- > social changes would result in third world families reducing their
- > birthrate to replacement level? B) Can we realistically expect
- > those changes to occur?
-
- Why are you picking on this putative "Third World" situation? Which
- areas do you want to discuss specifically with respect to the actual
- history and current circumstances they experience?
-
- We don't always know what changes will occur. At best we can assess
- the probability that particular changes will take place while keeping
- an acute weather eye open on any side-effects which might emerge, and
- try to hold a steady course. But it requires an awful lot of hard work
- and discipline as we take one step at a time and then have a look to
- see what is happening before we take the next step.
-
- > My opinion is that third world nations would have to successfully
- > compete in the global economy in order to attain the living
- > standard necessary to induce a voluntary drop in birthrates, and
- > the countries would essentially have to become first world nations.
- > Due to our shared skepticism of the ability for the global economy
- > to be comprised entirely of first world nations, my answer to B)
- > is "No."
-
- We do not have to compete. For the most part we can coexist, and as
- particular contingencies arise or projects loom we can then have a
- look at the situation and negotiate a consortium or joint venture
- to sort it out accordingly. Each individual person might just stop
- worrying about it so much, and take time out to study and develop
- expertise so that we have access to a considerably enhanced pool or
- talent and ability on a global scale to tackle situations as they
- develop.
-
- If you never get called in to work on a particular job, consider
- yourself well educated and better off for it anyway. In the meantime,
- I enjoyed the New Years Eve repeat of the Three Tenors concert at
- Caracalla in 1990 immensely, thank you very much. Total bliss!
-
- > Gil's remark that "your [U.S.] strategy [of using military force
- > for economic exploitation?] like the British before it isn't
- > finally going to work very well, is it?" suggests he has personal
- > political bias against U.S. policy which seems irrelevant.
-
- Well no, it is not irrelevant at all. I simply do not pretend not to
- have any biases; it is far better that you be aware of them than for
- me to bullshit that I love you all so dearly. Biases against certain
- countries and certain people are the very first to be considered as a
- project looms, as we would not want to be mistaken in how the various
- participants are going to get along together, would we?.
-
- Why risk an important project in such a manner?
-
- > I understand his point of how other countries can participate in
- > the global economy as "value added processors" without the need for
- > massive high-tech investment. My concern is that countries such as
- > Mexico and the Philippines engage in this, and the low wages do
- > little to raise the economic status of the workers, and the high
- > birthrate continues.
-
- Certainly, and as foreign intervention declines and the people are
- able to slowly get a grip on their problems, we might make progress.
- Again, as Mexico or the Philippines flag their intention to invite
- overseas experts in to assist them, you might be ready submit your CV
- for short-listing, yes?
-
- > Gil suggests I "come up to date on what is happening in the real
- > world." He says countries such as Egypt, Somalia, and Ethiopia
- > (high birth rate nations) have no ambition to compete in the mega-
- > high-tech global market. (He also says UN aid there is
- > "temporary"...I won't hold my breath.) So I repeat my question:
- > What hope do these countries have of attaining an economy necessary
- > to result in a voluntary birthrate reduction?
-
- Well, I don't know what hope they have. It is for them to decide as we
- keep an eye on the situation. There are simply no answers to the types
- of question you pose, and I wonder why you persist in framing them so.
-
- > Gil mocks my fear of countries deteriorating into chaotic
- > nightmares of street gangs killing people for the shirt off their
- > backs. My concerns have little to do with "millenarian prophecy,"
- > but rather with human nature.
-
- Your *view* of human nature, quite remarkably consistent with the
- Judeo-Christian tradition.
-
- > Here in Sacramento, California in the past year we have several
- > instances of people being murdered or beaten senseless for their
- > pocket change. There have been 21,000 car jackings in the U.S. --
- > you don't move fast enough and they shoot you in the head. Our
- > state legislature Lloyd Connelly had his car taken from him at
- > knifepoint. In other cities people have been murdered for their
- > Rolex watches, designer sunglasses, and tennis shoes. In San Jose
- > CA, and 15 year old shot a bicyclist dead because "he wanted to try
- > his gun on a moving target."
-
- Sure, but as Somalia has its problems so you have yours. We have our
- own here we have been putting some very effective programs in place to
- ammeliorate. We have a relatively small population, and it is easy for
- us to keep track of who is doing what that we can catch up with them
- much more easily.
-
- In fact, catching them has never really been that much of a problem
- here. It is how we are to rehabilitate them, or indeed to help them
- toward a more positive and fulfilling career before they do get into
- strife, that we have been concentrating on.
-
- > An overnight power failure in many American cities leads to rioting
- > and looting.
- >
- > In South America, it is not uncommon for homeless clans to invade
- > a farmhouse, murder all the occupants, and resume life on the farm.
-
- Well, I'd be rolling my sleeves up and getting on with it, if I were
- you people. I don't have to live with it, you do.
-
- > I am aware not everyone shares my pessimism, nor do I believe "doom
- > and gloom" is inevitable. But I consider the blind faith of those
- > like Julian Simon who claim "in the future there will be less
- > problems because there will be a lot more people working on
- > solutions" dangerous.
- >
- > Gil closed by suggesting I have been listening to Ronnie and George
- > for too long. Although I voted for both, I disagreed with their
- > big-picture view of the world. I have much more faith in our new
- > vice president (although I voted for Perot), Al Gore. I would
- > recommend his book, but I can't recall the title.
-
- Sure, do your homework. But you might cheer up a little.
-
- Gil
-
-