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- Newsgroups: alt.feminism
- Path: sparky!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!usc!sdd.hp.com!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!news.cso.uiuc.edu!levine
- From: levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine)
- Subject: Re: Why I am Not An Egalitarian
- References: <Bzu4Ez.D5y@news.cso.uiuc.edu> <1992Dec31.191915.19362@netcom.com> <C056zA.FAu@news.cso.uiuc.edu> <1993Jan3.030606.12132@netcom.com>
- Message-ID: <C0At7x.KJA@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
- Sender: usenet@news.cso.uiuc.edu (Net Noise owner)
- Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
- Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 22:02:20 GMT
- Lines: 90
-
- payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
-
- >In article <C056zA.FAu@news.cso.uiuc.edu> levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine) writes:
- >>payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
- >>
- >>>It seems to me that you spend a great deal of time defining things in
- >>>terms of classes, and have shown little interest in dropping the class
- >>>distinctions and looking at every case individually.
- >>
- >>But isn't part of looking at individual cases developing an intuition
- >>about the individual, instead of going strictly by paper qualifications?
-
- >Who specified ONLY PAPER QUALIFICATIONS? I have repeatedly stated that a
- >short session at the blackboard will tell far more about qualifications,
- >and a few questions will easily determine knowledge.
-
- Determining the extent of knowledge of people you don't know personally,
- from a short oral interview, is much more of an art than you may think.
- I've talked to people who have done this for many years, and can do it
- very well. They do not believe it's an easy, or completely objective task.
-
- Remember, some people think very well on their feet. Others do not
- (including some highly respected mathematicians).
-
- If you like, I can also find out more about the art of giving oral
- examinations. I can talk to one of the professors, one who is very
- expert at this art (to the delight of some, and the dismay of others).
- I don't know when he'll be back from winter break, but I'll talk to
- him as soon as he gets back, if you're interested.
-
- Remember, also, that part of evaluating applicants for graduate school,
- is, as I said before, not only evaluating their knowledge and abilities,
- but evaluating their maturity and determination. The reason this third
- factor is considered is that the department doesn't want to waste its
- money on an individual who will give up easily.
-
- >And your use of the word "intuition" makes me nervous. It's a female,
- >non-objective thing.
-
- I was merely echoing the word used by male mathematics professors, to
- describe the art of evaluating job applicants, or giving oral
- examinations. If you can think of a better word, tell me.
-
- >>And part of such an intuition may be an *individual's* history of
- >>overcoming adversity.
-
- >A history which will end the moment you give brownie points and differential
- >treatment. And you have yet to show that there is a single demonstrated
- >professional advantage.
-
- I did, maybe in this posting. Maturity and determination are considered
- to be as important as talent, in determining success in graduate school.
-
- If you've ever been to graduate school, you know this quite well.
-
- >>Note that I am in favor of affirmative action in terms of groups
- >>only in limited and extreme circumstances; (which have to be
- >>a lot more extreme for government than for private institutions).
-
- >Feminists yell loud and clear that -any- such differential treatment
- >(not in a womans favor) is WRONG. A few feminists even say that any
- >such differential treatment at all is wrong. You have drawn non-extreme
- >lines which seem to contradict the above.
-
- I don't quite understand what you're saying here. But I'm not obligated
- to follow anyone's definition of what a feminist should believe in --
- whether its Muffy's, or yours.
-
- >>I am, particularly, not in favor of *automatic* preference to women
- >>and minorities in public university admissions programs.
-
- >But I wonder what you would do if given the power to make such PC acceptable
- >selection preferances? I suspect (from reading all your posts) that
- >given the opportunity, you would give preferences based upon race and sex,
- >after all, you -define- those poor opressed souls as disadvanteged, and
- >those opressor white males with all the advantages will have no problem
- >getting a job as a corporate executive elsewhere, right? It's about time
- >that they learn to overcome disadvantages. Too bad noone cares if they
- >have, even if all their lives.
-
- >Rich
- >payner@netcom.com
-
- Your assumptions are quite unrealistic. You're also assuming an
- unnecessarily adversarial tone, based on these assumptions.
-
- There are many *abuses* of affirmative action around. I'll be
- posting on this subject shortly, so keep tuned...
-
- Lenore Levine
-