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- Newsgroups: alt.drugs
- Path: sparky!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.claremont.edu!pomona.claremont.edu!cblanc
- From: cblanc@pomona.claremont.edu (Muffavore)
- Subject: Re: LSD and alcoholics posting on usenet
- Message-ID: <1992Dec28.135235.1@pomona.claremont.edu>
- Lines: 115
- Sender: news@muddcs.claremont.edu (The News System)
- Organization: Multinational Corporations, Inc.
- References: <1992Dec27.012019.1@pomona.claremont.edu> <petersen-271292060001@elvex33.acns.nwu.edu> <1992Dec27.201453.1@pomona.claremont.edu> <1992Dec28.094636.11709@news.acns.nwu.edu>
- Date: 28 Dec 92 13:52:35 PST
-
- In article <1992Dec28.094636.11709@news.acns.nwu.edu>, petersen@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Julie Petersen) writes:
- > In article <1992Dec27.201453.1@pomona.claremont.edu> cblanc@pomona.claremont.edu (Muffavore) writes:
- >>> Well, certainly one good experience isn't going to make someone
- >>> suddenly wake up and never drink again. But it can be a powerful
- >>> start just to realize there's something else 'out there'. One of
- >>> the keys to AA is acceptance of a 'higher power'. This is much
- >>> easier when one has experienced the higher power directly through
- >>> LSD or MDMA.
- >>
- >> The 'higher power' argument is nice; however, it's just substitution of
- >>one addiction for another, and in the long run doesn't cure the more
- >>intellectually active alcoholics. Besides, you fail to address the point: it
- >>is a disease, whether physical or mental, and simply giving a substitute drug,
- >>whether bullshit icon (gOD) or MDMA is not going to cut it.
- >>
- >
- > I'm not sure I'm getting your point here... Are you implying that
- > alcoholics never recover? I'm saying MDMA could be used to aide
-
- No, I'm saying that the way to treat alcohol is not to assign more
- drugs to it as miracle cures. That is bullshit, as is giving gOD (DOg) to the
- poor fucks in treatment -- the only way is to face the problem, and I don't
- think that hallucinogens are going to aid that (this is not from lack of
- understanding, but too much understanding). Alcoholics never do recover, in a
- sense -- you are always an alcoholic, but you may not be drinking. Do you
- understand now?
-
- > the recovery process, and you keep saying that I'm wrong because
- > alcoholism is a disease. I don't see how the fact that alcoholism
- > is a disease ('disease' is subjective term, how about 'biological
-
- Great. Semantics. Hey -- recovery is a subjective term, too, pal. I
- know some alcoholics who don't want to recover....
-
- > difference') discredits the idea of using MDMA as part of working
- > towards a solution. In the first place, MDMA can allow a person
- > to look at themselves honestly. It can break down the defenses
-
- No, it can take away their inhibitions about doing so, which fosters a
- dependency in itself. Are you understanding yet?
-
- > that an alcoholic uses to avoid seeing what they're doing to
- > their life. And the nice thing is that at the same time that you
-
- I know quite a few who will admit openly that they are alcoholics, and
- recognize that fact (that is, they're not just saying "oh yeah iman alcoholic"
- and writing it off quantitatively) and do not want to change.
-
- > see yourself clearly, you are more inclined to accept things for
- > what they are. Acceptance is the first step towards recovery.
- >
- > As for MDMA being 'substitution of one addiction for another',
- > you saying this simply means that you don't understand MDMA. It
- > may be many things, but almost nobody makes the claim that it's
- > addictive, physically *or* psychologically.
-
- Anything is addictive psychologically -- I understand more
- of this than you do, trust me...
-
- >
- > For the alcoholic, alcohol is a very powerful drug, almost an
- > opiate. Some people don't understand that alcohol affects the
- > alcoholic differently than it does a 'normal' person (any
- > doctors to back me up on this?). Using LSD or MDMA is not
- > 'merely' replacing one drug with another. For an alcoholic who
- > has been partaking of a powerful drug for all of his adult life,
- > the high is very much an intergral part of life. It's got to
- > be replaced somehow (there is a natural human need for feeling
- > high, whether through religion, drugs, exercise, whatever). If
- > the highly debilitating drug alcohol can be replaced with a
- > drug that everyone agrees is way WAY safer, then that is a
- > great accomplishment in itself. And if it is a drug such as
- > MDMA which generally tends to be self-moderating, even better.
- > And as the alcoholic awakens from the 'other'-oriented
- > alcoholic high to the 'self'-oriented MDMA high s/he may
- > discover a whole new world which allows them to leave
- > behind the alcohol.
-
- What about the alcoholics who drink two beers a day? I hear that MDMA
- is neurotoxic; alcohol is as well, but at that level to a lesser degree. For
- one thing, I think you're talking hardcore alcoholic, in whose cases I doubt
- your positive experience theory applies at all, and I doubt are treatable with
- any drugs...MDMA or LSD might mmake them feel more alive, but they are still
- going to need alcohol. This is truth, something you've stated above -- I'm
- saying that your treatment is bullshit, and that applying it makes as much
- sense as applying leaches. AM I coming through yet?
-
- >
- > At the very least, there should be further research into the
- > use of LSD and MDMA to treat alcoholism. Nothing else we've
- > tried seems to work particularly well, any new approach
- > should at least be studied, rather than pushed into a closet
- > without giving it a chance. Personally I just think the
- > government would rather have an alcoholic citizenry than
- > an awakened psychedelic citizenry. Call me paranoid.
-
- Your stance is that of an absolute -- hallucinogens are good, alcohol
- is bad. Some people will always be alcoholics, and some will recover. The
- reason nothing has worked so far is that it's mostly tied up with that halfwit
- bastard gOD, who has nothing to do with chemicals and is merely another useless
- addiction -- I have yet to see a program I'd trust an alcoholic in.
- And some should stay alcoholic.
-
- >
- > __________________________________________________________________________
- > Jim Petersen petersen@casbah.acns.nwu.edu jp@darkstar.com
- >
- > If mercy's in business I wish it for you-
- > More than just ashes when your dreams come true.
- >
- >
-
- Didn't figure it would be understood,
-
- Muffavore
-