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- Xref: sparky alt.abortion.inequity:6264 soc.men:22060 soc.women:22079 talk.abortion:53984 alt.feminism:6770
- Newsgroups: alt.abortion.inequity,soc.men,soc.women,talk.abortion,alt.feminism
- Path: sparky!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!network.ucsd.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!nucsrl!ddsw1!karl
- From: karl@ddsw1.mcs.com (Karl Denninger)
- Subject: Re: Reproductive Technologies... (was: Re: Father Notification...)
- Message-ID: <C0B1zA.ByB@ddsw1.mcs.com>
- Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 01:11:33 GMT
- References: <1993Jan2.210817.10907@panix.com> <C09ErA.53t@ddsw1.mcs.com> <1993Jan3.163403.15205@panix.com>
- Organization: MCSNet, Chicago, IL
- Lines: 117
-
- In article <1993Jan3.163403.15205@panix.com> gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:
- >karl@ddsw1.mcs.com (Karl Denninger) proposed "affirmative
- >action" in custody cases.
- >
- >gf:
- >| >However, what I was thinking of was this: insisting that
- >| >49% of custody go to men may run into the question of
- >| >whether 49% of the men _want_ custody. Considering the
- >| >implacable resistance to paying child support shown here
- >| >and elsewhere, I have the idea that a good many men might
- >| >not consider your proposal a boon if the luck of the draw
- >| >smiled upon them. Take care: you may be giving ideas to
- >| >the devious witches on NOW's General Staff for yet
- >| >another plot.
- >
- >kd:
- >| Yeah, we're upset about the idea of child support.
- >|
- >| Particularly when "support" is grossly in excess of what is required to
- >| support and raise a child, and is another name for alimony.
- >
- >Do you have figures on this? Over the last twenty years,
- >I've known many people paying or receiving child support,
- >but in most cases the support was somewhat less than what
- ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
- >it would take to raise a child in roughly the same standard
- ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
- >of living the parents were used to. Avoid anecdotal
- ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
- >evidence, however; we can both supply that, but you are
- >making a positive implication that a great injustice is
- >going on, and need more than anecdotes to back it up.
-
- You've just made my point for me.
-
- If the NCP is providing "somewhat less than what it would take to raise
- ....." then what about the other parent who should be providing >half< of
- that support? Are they off the hook?
-
- And what about the >fact< that if you take one household, and split it into
- two households, INVARIABLY the two households standard of living will
- >decline< dramatically. This is fact. When you double fixed costs you're
- going to see a precipitous decline in living standard. No escape is possible
- from this fact.
-
- Now what is it that makes the CP (and the child, putatively) entitled to the
- old standard of living when it is >physically impossible< to do that by any
- other means than impoverishing the NCP?
-
- Further, the LAW in many states is that support is calculated not on >actual<
- earnings of the NCP, but >imputed< earnings. That is, if a NCP loses his
- job he STILL owes support money, even though he is not earning ANYTHING at
- the time!
-
- Therefore, if you lose your job you are immediately a "dead beat dad" since
- its damn difficult to pay support when you don't have an income! Should you
- file for unemployment (which pays only a percentage of your normal wages)
- you find that attached immediately for back and current support, which means
- that you receive nothing in unemployment benefits (to add insult to
- injury taxes accrue on the non-existant income you're not receiving, as they
- are not witheld on unemployment checks!)
-
- Sure, the kid goes on getting his money (maybe), although really its Mom who
- gets it. Dad lives on the street, where the feminists claim "he belongs"
- since he should support his kids (and his ex-wife, although we don't mention
- that) first - even if it means destroying him utterly.
-
- Heh, if men didn't want that fate, perhaps they ought to keep it in their
- pants!
-
- >kd:
- >| ...
- >| Particularly when, should the man complain, she can simply use the "nuclear
- >| bomb" of child custody disputes, sexual abuse allegations, and >even if they
- >| are false and baseless< walk away scott free -- with the kids -- while the
- >| man is ruined not only personally for financially as well.
- >
- >You've been making this charge as well, but as yet you have
- >not offered any evidence that I have seen. Again, an
- >anecdote or two will not do; you are asserting that it is
- >a general problem.
-
- It certainly is. Whether or not a weapon is used is not the point. It is
- still a weapon. The fact is that today a woman can use this weapon with
- impunity and face no punishment, even if the accusation is completely false
- and baseless. In many counties and states it is >impossible< for a woman to
- stand trial for a false accusation, as the "experts" claim that there is no
- such thing as a provably-false abuse accusation.
-
- I stand by my statement; if I have a nuclear bomb I do not have to use it
- or even threaten to for there to be an impact on a negotiation we are
- undertaking; your knowledge that I posess it, and can use it if desired,
- are enough.
-
- >kd:
- >| (Feminists, don't bother saying "but some men have custody". 90% of men in
- >| this situation do not have >meaningful< custody or contact, but they do
- >| seem to have the bills.)
- >|
- >| Yeah, men are upset.
- >|
- >| I suspect that if men had their kids, and were the ones receiving the
- >| support checks, you'd hear a lot fewer complaints.
- >
- >I've seen no evidence of any of this. Where do you
- >get your information?
-
- Read the statistics on the granting of primary physical custody in
- divorce cases. See who gets the kids, and who gets the bills. The
- percentages are right there if you care to do the work for yourself.
-
- All the complaints I've heard, here and in real live, have had to do with
- the bills -- not having the kids.
-
- -=-
- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl)
- Data Line: [+1 312 248-0900]
-