NetNews Usenet Archive 1992 #30/NN_1992_30.iso/spool/comp/sys/apple2/25728

Text File | 1992-12-20 | 22.8 KB | 496 lines

Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2
Path: sparky!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!spool.mu.edu!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!news!nosc!crash!pro-nbs!pro-harold!pro-scat!bslog
From: [e-mail] (Bill Logsdon)
Subject: Comments?
Organization: ProLine [pro-scat] St. Petersburg, Florida.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 19:09:32 EST
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 486


************************************************************************

Please read over the next few files and leave a little response to them.

We're going to include your opinions with what happens out there so let
your voice be heard, eh...

************************************************************************

PROJECT APPLE STORM - Antecedent

In the first week of July, 1992, a cartel of Apple ][ users and
developers, represented by the Bay Area Apple ][ Users Group, (BAAUG),
arranged a meeting with members of the User Group Connection and the
Apple ][ Engineering contingent at Apple Computer Inc. The intended
purpose of this gathering was singular. "To discuss the merits of the
continued operation of BAAUG as an Apple ][ User Group."

The initial meeting, set for August, 1992, was postponed by Apple
because of unforeseen developments preoccupying those expected to be in
attendance.

Another scheduled for early September, was also postponed and
rescheduled to late September for the same reason.

Yet again this meeting was postponed and was rescheduled for November
18th, again for the same reason.

On November 16th, the meeting was once more postponed once more, for the
same reason, and rescheduled for November 19th @ 10:00AM.

Many of the BAAUG/A2 representatives had made prior arrangements and
were forced to readjust their schedules to accommodate the original
11/18 meeting. (From as far away as Colorado and San Diego).

Others, who were not contacted in time, made the long drive to the
Campbell complex for the 11/18/92 meeting, and were at that time
informed of the rescheduled gathering. To conclude this poignant
diatribe, three BAAUG members were an hour late to this appointment as a
result of inaccurate directions volunteered by an Apple employee. Thus
this author ends his "Harrumph!"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

THE PLAYERS:  Those in attendance were...

  From Apple Computer Inc:

 Sub ->Re: From the MotherBoard out in CA...
     John Santoro, Apple ][ Engineering
     Rye Livingston, Community Groups, User Group Connection
     Ray Kaupp, Manager, User Groups and Associates

  Representing the Apple ][:
     Tony Diaz, AllTech Electronics, San Diego
     Mike Garvey, BAAUG Administrative Leader, GEnie Host
     Kent Keltner, BAAUG Planning Leader
     Joe Kohn, Contributing Editor, inCider/A+
     Kent Keltner, BAAUG Planning Leader
     Lunatic, GEnie Ambassador
     Ernest Moore, BAAUG Leadership Coordinator
     Joe Yandrofski, Sequential Systems, Lafayette, Colorado

Missing in action caused by the continual postponments:
     Kenrick Mach, Paul Parkhurst, Margot Taylor and Ed Hernandez

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

This report was assembled from a 90 minute audio tape that recorded the
proceedings from the back of the room and the authors recollection of
voices, names and faces.

Although the wording may not be quotable, it is extremely accurate!
When the voice cannot be directly associated with the individual that
spoke the words, the speaker will be identified as either "APPLE" or
"BAAUG". Commentory notes by the author are indicated with "{ }"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

PROJECT APPLE STORM - The Beef

MEETING BEGINS: {Finally}

Santoro: What would you like to walk out of here with?

Moore: Basically, straight shoot-from-the-hip answers regarding the
status of the Apple ][. We don't want to be subjected to the limitations
of nondisclosure statements and the like because we have an obligation
to our users. We'd also like to know what the Apple plans are for future
and new Apple ][ users. We aren't here to prosecute or to be cross
examined, we just want straight and honest answers.

Santoro: New Apple ][ Users or new Apple ][ Computers?

Moore: New Apple ][ Users!

Santoro: We're not coming out with a new Apple ][ cpu.

{Being evasive here and dodging the question!}

Moore: That doesn't relate to new Apple ][ users, but is there a
specific reason that Apple has for not releasing a new ][ cpu?

Santoro:  We just can't rationalize it. This is a business decision that
was reached at a corporate level far above our heads here! It's been
termed as a high risk. Another Apple ][ would send a wrong message to
consumers.  We don't want them to think that we have two platforms and
it's obvious that Apple supports the Macintosh. {Another of those
critical statements!}

Moore: Let me guess. The office of the Apple CEO?

Lunatic: Is it true that there was a prototype of a new Apple ][ that
was going to be released?

Santoro:  I won't deny it! {Quickly and nervously shifted, then dodged
the original again!} We get tons of letters from people that have had
wonderful experiences with their Apple ]['s from a variety of sources.
However, last month we sold 7 ][e's and 7 ][gs's nationwide. That's 14
Apple ]['s across the country. {14 Apple ]['s sold without a lick of
advertisement.. not bad!}

Diaz: We sold 20 used Apple ][ systems last month alone!

Santoro: Yea, USED Apple ]['s. You haven't seen an Apple ][e or ][gs in
a dealership for a long time.  This is a dealership decision. Apple
can't dictate to the  dealerships what they should keep in stock. People
were buying Macs and weren't buying ][gs's. Also, it's expensive for us
to make them. We do want to keep the ][gs viable and we want to continue
building the bridge between the ][gs and the Mac. {Remember this
statement later!}

Moore: There's an easy explanation for that. 18 months after the gs was
released, dealerships were telling people that Apple wasn't making them
anymore and that the Apple ][ had been discontinued.

Santoro: We can't tell dealerships what to say either!

Kohn: If Apple had a certain criteria that dealerships had to abide by,
like requiring them to have all of the Apple cpu line on display, these
false rumors wouldn't manifest themselves.

Santoro: I'll be the first to admit that the company hasn't done the
best job of policing each and every dealership. {Spoken with an air of
sarcasm!}

Livingston: A lot of things happened back in '86-'87 that may have been
debatable, but this is '92 and almost '93 and we have to think of the
future of the company.

Moore: Yes, and we are obligated to think of the future of this huge
number of people that own Apple ]['s, who firmly believe Apple Computer
Inc is giving them the proverbial shaft.

Kaupp: Are these people going to buy new Apple ]['s?

Moore: I won't ask you to validate that question. They already own Apple
]['s.  Many of them more than one system. What the existing ][ user base
wants is a solid show of support by Apple, be it in the form of a new
cpu or a guy on tv with an Apple ][ as his choice for a home computer
system.

Lunatic: A primary question that I have is, Apple has repeatedly
professed support for the Apple ][. If Apple Inc is still supporting it,
why can't users get technical support and service from the Apple
dealerships?

Santoro: What is support? What support are you looking for?

Moore: A user takes his ][ into a dealership to have it serviced and the
service personel dosen't recognize the machine. They want to know if the
][gs is a 286 or 386 compatible.

Santoro: So you're looking for service?

Moore: We're looking for support, from Apple, for the Apple ][!

Garvey: I'm in a good position to elaborate more on this because I do it
for a living. Most people don't care about servicing, maintenance and
the like, they depend on me to do it for them. {Mike Garvey perpetually
assumes the role of the service department at the dealerships at this
point.}  I must have a source from which to accomodate these things.
{Reference to service and maintenance.}  We're currently in what you may
refer to as the third generation of computer users. The first consisted
of semi-power users.  The hackers and the like. The next was the class
that used computers as a learning device and now, the average user has
their computer as a tool. They use it just as if it were a hammer or a
screwdriver.

Kohn: What we need is somewhere, or someone, to turn to for sales,
service and support. Users need a definative response when repairs to
their systems are necessary. User Groups aren't the answer because most
aren't qualified to provide service and/or repairs.

Diaz: At AllTech we're encountering even more of a problem. We have
become one of the places to find Apple ][ stuff, but the dealers don't
want to support us.  They get paranoid when they look at their invoices
and see all of the purchases made by AllTech Electronics. They ask us if
we're re-selling things and they're afraid that Apple Inc will cut them
off.

Garvey: There's a missing link between Apple and the end users that
dealerships used to fill that isn't being filled anymore.

Santoro: Again you have to put yourselves in the shoes of the other
person.  Dealerships have to maintain a margin of profit. They want to
sell the hottest computer and the Apple ][ isn't it. I've made a
proposal that would fall under the PowerBook service type format but it
has to be approved at a higher level.

Moore: There are two ends of the spectrum here. Over the years, the end
user has come to look at the "Authorized Apple Dealership" as the
extension of Apple Inc and this was by Apple's own design. When an end
user wanted information about his computer, or wanted to buy a machine
or parts, or get service and he contacted Apple Inc, he was very gruffly
told to go see his local authorized Apple Dealership. Now he takes his
system to this dealership and they haven't the slightest idea as to what
the machine is.  The user is getting aggravated because his system has
been in the shop for a week while the highly trained service department
tries to determine if the problem with the ][gs is that it dosen't have
an RLL/IDE card in it or they can't locate a chip that has a *.86
suffix. Meanwhile the user comes back muttering "What ta hell kind of
company is this?"

Livinsgton: No, he comes back and thinks that the planet has changed on
him.  Things aren't the same as they used to be.

Moore: Nope! Now he finally gets his system back, fixed or unfixed and
he's muttering to himself. He places an ad in the paper to sell his
system and when that's done he buys a DOS machine because he can get
support, buy software or have that system serviced anywhere.

Santoro: He comes back and thinks that this dealer dosen't do what he
used to do and that's absolutely true. We want to keep our Apple ][
customers with the hopes that they continue to buy Apple machines.
Dealerships don't want to spend $500 a day for Apple ][ technical
training for the 2 or 3 Apple ][ calls he's going to get in a month. So
what's the most efficient way for Apple to deal with this problem?

Moore: That's easy, via the user group.

Livingston: We already do that. When someone calls up for service, we
give them the name of the nearest dealership and also the name of the
nearest user group.

Garvey: What Ernie is driving at is an extension of something that I
wanted to get into a little bit later, but the reality of this is that
the user cannot rely upon service from the dealerships. Apple has always
sent their products to dealerships for distribution and now their also
being sent to super stores and resellers. I look at the Sears catalog
and I don't see any Apple ][ products there. Also, how do I get service
for my system?

Santoro: We've just produced a new catalog that has all of the Apple
products in it, except for the cpu's, and they can be purchased directly
from us.

Moore: The catalog has Mac cpu's displayed in it and there's one page at
the back of it with Apple ][ peripherals only.

Garvey: Does this means that I can call up Apple, give them my resellers
license number and pick up my purchase?

Kohn: Why can't Apple ][ cpu's be distributed by these super stores
along with the Powerbooks and etc?

Apple: Everyone views the Apple ][ as a single market machine.
Dealerships regard it as strictly a K-12 computer. {Sound like brain
washing?}

Moore: The K-12 crew dosen't even know what to do with their cpu's when
they malfunction. They call ComputerLand and get the same story. By the
way, how many Apple ]['s does Apple Inc recognize as being the computer
of  choice in the end users home?

APPLE:  Actually it's a legal problem regarding contractual agreements
with PowerBooks where the stores cannot do mail orders of Apple
products. The big legal question was that if we went mail order with our
cpu's, would that violate the contractual agreements with these retail
outlets? {Evasive...eh!}

Kaaup: Wait! I thought we were talking about why the Apple ][ cpu wasn't
in the catalog? We don't want to sell people ]['s, we want to take the
installed base of ][ users and support them. {Critical statement there!}

Garvey: Along these lines of damage control, the dealership channal
isn't working. So where do people have to turn? Online services, user
groups? What I'd propose is to empower user groups as the go between to
resell Apple parts and peripherals!

Moore: Here's a case in point example.  I received a call from an
individual that wanted to upgrade from an Apple ][e to a ][gs. Please
bear in mind that he did *NOT* want a Mac.  I could not give him an
answer!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

PROJECT APPLE STORM - Analysis

In reviewing of the information provided by Apple at this meeting, there
are many items unveiled which prior to meeting were rumors only.

Statements like, " We don't want users to think that we have two
platforms ", made by the head of the Apple ][ Continued Engineering Team
give cause for this reporter to peek between the lines and see the real
picture.

In retrospecting the Apple ]['s history for the last 5 years, there are
events that occured which give cause for raised eyebrows.

 a) ... Shortly after the ][gs was released, the ][c+ was released and
        it boasted a 4.5 mhz cpu compared to the state of the art gs
       which had a native speed of 2.5 mhz.

 b) ... Approximately 10 months after the ][gs and ][c+ were released,
       dealers began telling customers that the Apple ][ had been
       discontinued by Apple Inc and was no longer in production. The
       ][c+ was dropped from the price list less than 1 year after it
       was announced.

 c) ... 18 months after the gs was released, mysteriously software
       developers terminated gs projects they were working on. Many of
       them were near completion. Is, WHY a question or an answer?

 d) ... A User Group Connection coordinator stated at the meeting,
        " We don't want to sell people Apple ]['s, we want to support
       the existing Apple ][ user base! "

When asked, "Why isn't Apple Inc pushing for Apple ][ sales?", the Apple
representatives never gave an answer either directly or indirectly. The
standard comment of, "The 65xxx cpu is old technology!" was always
offered as the response. Yet the 65xxx cpu is thriving in other cpu's!

Apple would have us believe that only 25% of all Apple ]['s sold since
1977 are in homes and the 75% balance are in schools. Using those
figures, there have been approximately 1.37 million Apple ]['s sold to
users as the computer of choice in their homes since 1977. I recall
reading an article in the 1985 era, where 15 million Apple ]['s had been
sold *then* and 40% were in peoples home as the computer of choice.

This reporter would like to know why a major corporation such as Apple
Computer cannot support two product lines, being the Apple ][ and the
Macintosh. This reporter would also like to know why a major corporation
such as Apple Inc, having a tremendous installed user base with the
Apple ][, would elect to proceed with a poorly planned program of
elimination of that massive fertile market at the apex of it's
popularity. Assuredly it was not done for the financial welfare of the
company as sales of the ][gs were far beyond promising and the profit
margin was lucritive.

Realizing that there is no logical answer to these many strange
occurances; and that the advent of them all began with the changeover in
the high office, there is one solitary explanation that may be
extracted. It may be summarized with a single word... " EGOTISM!" This
reporter charges that the CEO of Apple Computer Inc has a fanatical
craving to compete with the legend of the past CEO of Chrysler Motors.
(Can't touch Lee you rascal!)  This twisted thinking mandates that the
name *WOZNIAC* be expunged from the minds of the masses as that name
automatically invokes images of the Apple ][. (Can't touch Steve
either dude!) This twisted thinking also mandates that the name
Macintosh be established as *THE* Apple computer. Yet the name Apple is
never affiliated with the Macintosh, only the logo!

Now comes the anticipated closed chapter for the, umm, gentleman. At the
meeting the head of the Apple ][ Continued Engineering Group disclosed
that the ][gs would be taken off of the price list before the end of
1992, and that the ][e would remain because of the K-12 committment. The
reasoning for this action was that the assembly lines could be used to
produce PowerBooks which are apparently in high demand.

This reporter poses this question to all who read these lines:

 Why can't a corporation as large as Apple Computer, Inc think in terms
of company growth and expansion, improve the capability of the 65816,
market it with enthusiasm as other 65xxx based systems do and enjoy the
success?

If you have not read the transcripts of the meeting, please do so. Read
it all as it's not that long. Pass it on. There's only one way to stop
the systematic murder of the Apple ][,  SUPPORT IT!  Support it with
testimonials; support it with word of mouth praise for the system to
prospective first time buyers; support it by developing software and
hardware for it; support it by demanding to see ][ cpu's and peripherals
in Apple dealerships; support it by demanding that Apple Inc display
Aple ]['s in their catalogs; support it by demanding that Apple Inc
market it with enthusiasm. This is the only way to protect your
investment. This is the only way to drive a stake through the heart of
the one that Bram Stoker REALLY wrote his never about!

I encourage responses to the transcripts of Project Apple Storm. With
enough interest from the end user base, assuredly Project Apple Storm II
will take place and this time with the voice of the masses behind us.
Please spread the transcripts of PAS to each and every online service in
existance. As was once most eloquently stated, "the Apple ][ isn't dead
yet, but it appears that it's terminal." We're going to be the surgeons
that bring the near dead to glorious and blissful life.

Contacts:
               Future Net: User #1@#9
               Oggnet    : User #8@Valhalla
               AOL       : EPM BAAUG
               GEnie     : Contact Mike Garvey or Lunatic and ask them
                          to forward responses to me.

Here's to hoping that I'll type to you later...               E. Moore

************************************************************************

Project Apple Storm - Apple Retaliates

I received a telephone call from an Apple employee Wednesday, the name
will remain anonymous as he would probably deny it anyway.

I was told that I was really in trouble because I had broken the law by
releasing the transcripts of a private meeting.  I was also told that
the legal staff at ACI was looking into what action to take at this
point.  The caller felt that I had violated the sanctity of the hallowed
halls of the meeting room and using his own words, "Things are really
going on here as a result of your releasing that CRAP to the Internet
and GEnie!"

The caller raved on about why didn't I let them, (Apple), review the
transcripts prior to releasing them and that having a tape recorder
present at the meeting was also a violation of the law. He continually
stressed my not knowing how much trouble I was really in!  He stated
that the transcripts made it appear that the User Group Connection and
John Santoro did not care about the Apple end users.

My response to him was that:

a)...  I made my intentions known when the meeting began by stating
that we didn't want to be a part of non-disclosures as our     intent
was to make
       our users aware of the status of the Apple ][.

b)...  I told him that the contents of the transcripts were exactly
what took place at the meeting and that all remarks enclosed   within
the {}'s were editorial comments.

c)...  I informed him that as I interpreted the transcripts, the User
Group Connection; and John Santoro; and Apple Inc in general,  did not
care about APPLE ][ END USERS other than the those in  the K-12 areas.

The caller went on to accuse me of being an idiot in making reference
to the egotism of the Apple CEO and that by my doing this, most people
would envision me as a stupid individual to publically make such a
statement.

In the mind of this reporter, that catagory must have struck a nerve
somewhere in the Cupertino high office! I informed the caller that I
felt that I had done the correct thing in reporting the condition of
the Apple ][ to the public. I lashed him a little for making demeaning
remarks about my person and told him to let the general public make
their own conclusions about my intellectual level.

SUMMARY:  It's somewhat gratifying to know that the transcripts produced
a response from Apple.  What could prove interesting would be for them
to get their legal staff actively involved. Think of the glorious
publicity that the Apple ][ would receive.

***********************************************************************

 Brd > Computer News * Apple // *        Numb> 145 of 150
 To  > nitt and LSW                      From> Unseen Entity (#8)
 Subj> Idiot Sculley                     Date> 12/15/92  03:41:25 PM
 Sorc> Sculley's Hatred:Gardena Ca       Rcd > Thu. Dec 17 1992 @ 04:47

Agreed.  Sculley's a jerk and can be real thickheaded about getting
things his way.  One day he's going to have to wake up and realize he
can't have everything his way (hopefully soon).

Blackbeard: Apple is not likely to take legal action, as it would
generate bad publicity for them, undoubtably accompanied by lots of
pro-Apple II support.  Apple will most likely respond by continuing to
state that in their opinion a user group who would do that does not care
about the II users.  And, of course, that in their mind would justify
more mac support and less Apple II support.  But, just maybe Sculley and
Co. will be stupid enough to make a scene and attract negative attention
to themselves...(hopefully...)


Whaddaya think?