home *** CD-ROM | disk | FTP | other *** search
- Xref: sparky ca.politics:9814 ba.politics:7341 alt.homosexual:357 talk.politics.misc:61347
- Path: sparky!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!ames!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!orchid.UCSC.EDU!stephen
- From: stephen@orchid.UCSC.EDU (x4604 (Hauskins))
- Newsgroups: ca.politics,ba.politics,alt.homosexual,talk.politics.misc
- Subject: Homosexuality and politics
- Date: 23 Nov 1992 06:32:04 GMT
- Organization: Santa Cruz
- Lines: 162
- Message-ID: <1eptt4INN8to@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>
- NNTP-Posting-Host: orchid.ucsc.edu
-
- The following is a tenant about homosexuality as posted by Phil Ronzone
- in the past. It came with the FOA, property and moral tenants, but it
- definitely has another tone and flavor. It becomes very personal and
- this shows throught quite clearly to me.
-
- -
- -
- -HOMOSEXUALITY
- -
- -A. It's moral.
- -
-
- Nice touch. Your own moral solutions and defintions allow you to
- make this statment and therefore you think that it appeases gay people,
- but please read the rest of your statements carefully.
-
- -B. I do not think that the homosexual lifestyle, as defined by American
- - modern day homosexuals, is a healthy life enhancing lifestyle. I also
- - do not this of Catholic priests and a few other groups.
- -
- - Notwithstanding that, I'm sure there are a great many happy and moral
- - homosexuals.
- -
-
- Yes, in fact I would venture to say the majority. Now of course there is
- no judgement call in the above statement you have made, is there?
-
- - If you STILL don't understand, consider the case of a man that derived
- - great enjoyment from pounding small finishing nails into his skull.
- - True story. That man was performing a moral act, and one that by all
- - accounts brought him great happiness. And I assume the man led a moral
- - life and didn't steal or molest small hammers.
- -
- - Yet, while I may associate with the person, and even work quite
- - comfortably with him (I've worked happily with programmers that
- - were far weirder), I would not want that man nor his lifestyle
- - exposed to any children of mine, nor would I want him teaching
- - my children.
- -
-
- How is it that you constantly attempt to make associations between
- fairly negative concepts and people who wish only to live and have
- a life without many others telling them they are wrong. The is a
- great difference between someone who pounds nails in their head and
- being gay.
-
- Do you conjecture that the person who does the nail pounding might
- be heterosexual? Therefore I would not wany of my childern exposed
- to heterosexuals because in reality they do, by the sheer fact that
- they are the majority, do all of these very strange things.
-
- And as far as not exposing your childern goes-
-
- they are your property- childern as you viem them within your subjective
- realm of ideas, are your property. To be manipulated as you see fit and
- in the end coerced without their knowlegde. Fortunately you will lose
- more and more control, becuase the society in which you participate will
- have more and more influence over them as they become older.
-
- -C. As homosexuals have an utter and absolute right to do what they
- - want on a moral basis, I too have such a right.
- -
- - Specifically, I do not my children exposed to homosexual lifestyles.
- -
-
- Why? What is the basis of your phobia (fear) irrational at best. I
- think it is that you do not trust your childern's judgement. That
- only you can make the right and correct choices for them. You will
- of course be surprised as they grow older.
-
- And of course maintain the elusion that certain conditions in the world
- do not exist. Oh and please make sure that you tell your childern
- that there really aren't any other childern straving in the world,
- laying in streets dying.
-
- - Bringing my daughter to work and having her meet a homosexual is
- - something I can control and elect to manage. Having no choice
- - in having my children exposed to homosexuals teachers is a violation
- - of my FOA.
- -
-
- What about your daughter FOA. Oh I remember, childern in your system
- are property, to be manipulated as you see fit. To coerce and fit
- into your vision of what is correct. You must be very afraid that
- your childern may do or know something that you forbid or worst , that
- you fear terribly.
-
- -D. Most of this is a problem because of coercive taxation. If there were
- - no coercive taxation for just the dollars needed for schools, then the
- - problem would go away.
- -
- Just like that- poof! Problems gone.
-
- - I'd choose my schools, you'd choose you schools, and so on.
- -
-
- Yes more and more divisiveness- a divide house can not stand.
-
- - And yes, that may mean I send my kid to the Ayn Rand elementary
- - school, and you send yours Faggot U, and they send theirs to
- - the If You Ain't A Baptist You Will Fry In Hell kindergarten,
- - but then, that is all of ours to decide.
- -
-
- Well I don't think it would be called Faggot U. or whatever...
-
- No it is not all ours to decide- if you want to be part of the
- social contract in the state or country you live, then you must
- give and get- concessions is what they are called.
-
- -E. In the same fashion, for YOU to have FOA in being a homosexual
- - (or not), I too must have FOA. And that includes association of
- - all types.
- -
-
- You are assuming that every gay persons wants FOA- or egocentric
- discrimination. I do not think that is true. Besides you could be
- associating with a gay person and not even know it- even though
- your own personal FOA says that you won't.
-
- - Whether it is dating, marriage, buying/selling, renting, employment,
- - these are all agreements between individuals that the State has no
- - business interfering in.
- -
-
- Well if we look at the larger picture and take out the concept you
- are implying via the use of 'State', we must and have to balance our
- wants with everyone else in the world. Because our existence and being
- (educationally and emotionally) come from others.
-
- - If the State steps in, in say, an EEO for homosexuals hiring situation,
- - then somewhere, someone's right to Freedom Of Association is being violated.
- -
-
- But if a person is hired and homosexual, and know one knows it, then
- your FOA has been violated anyway. The only thing that people who
- are gay want is not to be treated via archaic and irrelavant notions
- as inferior or lesser persons, because they are not.
-
- - Your supposed "right" to a job can not be stronger to my "right" to hire
- - or not hire, or to serve food, or to rent an apartment, etc.
- -
-
- This is nonsense in a society that depends on workers and consumers. The
- right to work must supersede your right hire to hire, rent, serve food etc.
- becuase without a worker your supplied services mean nothing.
-
- - The fact that it make you feel bad, or make you feel part of an "oppressed
- - minority" is beside the point. Your need is no claim on anybody else.
- -
-
- No- feelings as to oppression and 'feeling bad' are important- why do
- you think revolution happen? Becuase people are oppressed and made
- to feel inferior by a class that thinks it is morally better.
-
- - If it was, how would you balance the need of a black minority to feel
- - good by being hired by another minority, a Korean grocer, who has a
- - need to feel good by hiring a fellow Korean?
- -
-
- Through education and the concept of a functional and working society.
-
-