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- Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
- Path: sparky!uunet!convex!darwin.sura.net!jvnc.net!princeton!crux!roger
- From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
- Subject: Re: quite unique
- Message-ID: <1992Nov17.074928.24128@Princeton.EDU>
- Originator: news@nimaster
- Sender: news@Princeton.EDU (USENET News System)
- Nntp-Posting-Host: crux.princeton.edu
- Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
- Organization: Princeton University
- References: <1992Nov16.060225.13337@news.columbia.edu> <1992Nov16.173817.20080@Princeton.EDU> <1992Nov17.031653.12387@news.columbia.edu>
- Distribution: alt
- Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 07:49:28 GMT
- Lines: 291
-
- In article <1992Nov17.031653.12387@news.columbia.edu> gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener) writes:
- >In article <1992Nov16.173817.20080@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
-
- >>>What you fail to grasp is that a dictionary's listing a word as having
- >>>a certain meaning does not necessarily mean that such a meaning is a
- >>>correct usage of the word. You seem unable to grasp this concept.
- >>
- >>I am indeed unable to grasp your as-yet-undefined concept of
- >>"correct" usage. If dictionaries won't tell me (and good ones, such
- >>as the OED, most certainly *do* give opinions of appropriateness, and
- >>what people consider appropriate), how do I find out?
-
- >Many dictionaries are purely descriptive. They'll list "axe" as a form
- >of ask and "irregardless" as a variant of regardless. I know few people
- >whose visceral sense of correctness would be satisfied by that. Yours,
- >perhaps.
-
- So we must only go by some undefined instinct? Is that it? No rules?
- No methods of deciding?
-
- Of course, I've never seen you say "I feel this usage is wrong." You
- just say "It's wrong," listening, no doubt, to your viscera. Seems
- like your preferences *are* the standard, eh?
-
- >>>>"We already have a word that means that." Translation: they're synonyms.
- >>>>Guess what? We have whole *books* of synonyms. They're called
- >>>>thesauruses (or thesauri, if you swing that way). Could you tell me
- >>>>exactly when synonym became a sin?
-
- >>>Never, until people start using words with *other* meanings as synonyms.
-
- >>Run that one by me again? Lots of words have several meanings.
-
- >Indeed they do. Th point is that if we have a sentence such as:
-
- > She is a truly unique applicant.
-
- >We have no way of knowing if that means:
-
- > She is a rather unusual applicant
-
- > or
-
- > She's one of a kind! Take her!
-
- or
-
- She's one of a kind! Avoid her like the plague!
-
- Of course, we *do* know that it's not your first possibility, because
- the word "truly" contradicts "rather."
-
- >The beauty of the word unique is that it characterizes elements that
- >are in a class unto themselves.
-
- a) I have different standards of beauty.
-
- b) It has never meant exclusively that. It has carried the sense of
- "unusual" with it throughout its history. See Claiborne or OED.
-
- >If we use it to mean *both* that and
- >"unusual," we no longer have a word that puts something above
- >everything else, which would be a definite loss of information.
-
- Loss from what? It has *never* had that one meaning and no other.
- And yet people have always been able to sort out the meaning of the
- word. (Claiborne suggests that one add "absolutely" if one wishes to
- avoid all possible confusion.)
-
- >>>"Unique" has a meaning different from that of "unusual."
-
- >>And a meaning that's similar to "unusual." It has both meanings.
-
- >Mais non!
-
- Such a stunning, well-backed, thoughtful argument. And in French, yet.
- Care to tell us why Claiborne and Evans and all those dictionaries may
- be disregarded, arguments and hostiry and all?
-
- >>If you use "head" to mean the toilet on a ship, does it no longer mean
- >>the thing on your shoulders? Stop talking nonsense, Gabe. Lots of
- >>words have several meanings.
-
- >Lots of words have several meanings, but that isn't the issue here.
- >We're not talking about words with completely different senses here.
- >We're talking about a word which has historically meant "one of a
- >kind" and which, through sloppy usage, has taken on a meaning of
- >"unusual."
-
- What word is that? Surely not "unique." "Unique" took on that second
- meaning long ago, and I challenge you to provide evidence of sloppiness
- when it happened. (Of course, the OED cites a writer in 1818 who claims
- that the very *use* of "unique" is sloppy. Perhaps he's right...)
-
- >There is no chance that anyone is going to confuse "head"
- >as a body part with 'head" the verb or "head" the toilet. There is a
-
- How do you suppose that happens? How do people keep them apart?
-
- >severe likelyhood of loss of information in the case of "unique," and
-
- Give an example where it has actually happened. Show that confusion
- was caused. My null hypothesis is that p(loss of info) = 0.
-
- >it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the only reason
- >"unique" has a second meaning to some of "unusual" is that it is
- >constantly misused.
-
- There you go again, assuming your conclusion. Why is the use of "unique"
- to mean "unusual" a misuse? It's a far more *common* use than any other,
- as far as I can tell, and has been eqully common, and equally well-
- understood, for centuries.
-
- >>>>Translation: they didn't consult Gabe Wiener first. He knows the
- >>>>English language as nobody else, and his word goes.
-
- >>>I'll overlook the grammatical error in that sentence :-)
-
- >>Sorry, should be "like nobody else..."
-
- >Or "as nobody else does." Unless, of course, you wish to dispute that
- >rule too.
-
- Frankly, I think that eliding the copula, especially in a modifying clause,
- doesn't change much about the sentence. Oh, and -- WHAT rule?
-
- >>>No, it has nothing to do with consulting me. It has to do with words'
- >>>having shades of meaning that are worthy of being preserved.
-
- >>Yes, go ahead, keep talking. What does this have to do with using
- >>several meanings of a word? And how do you determine which "shades"
- >>are officially sanctioned? I'm still waiting for you to tell me
- >>how to determine this for even one word.
-
- >Sanctioned...now there's a word I love. It can mean both to approve,
- >and to deny. Gotta love it. Also "cleave." But anyway, I'm not into
- >officially sanctioning (in either meaning) any words. I do find usage
- >that arises from slovenly use of the language slightly questionable.
-
- Once more with the insults and prejudice. You wanted prejudice? Here
- it is: a usage that Gabe doesn't approve of is "slovenly."
-
- Now, once again: show that the devlopment of the various meanings of
- "unique" was the result of slovenliness. Give evidence.
-
- >How to determine it? It isn't hard. There is plenty of historical
- >evidence for the word meaning "one of a kind." There is little
- >historical evidence to support a meaning of "unusual" except that some
- >people misuse it as such and some harmless drudges put it in the book.
-
- Read Claiborne. He actually reviewed the evidence. You're wrong. There
- is *plenty* of evidence. Of course, if you wish to stnad by your prejudice
- and simply label every occurrence of the meaning you don't like a "misuse,"
- no matter how many ofthem there are, no matter who said it, no matter
- when, then you can prove all kinds of things. But again, that's assuming
- your conclusion. How did YOU, Gabe, originally determine that one meaning
- of "unique" was proper, and another a "misuse"?
-
- Oh, right. Viscera.
-
- >>>We decided long ago that your usage of the word "grammar" is different
- >>>from that of many. You're welcome to it, of course.
-
- >>*some* people"? -- if YOU happen to be one of the "some"? I sense an
- >>inability to take it commensurate to the ability to dish it out.
-
- >As if your usage of the word "grammar" is in some way superior or more
- >widespread? Not.
-
- No, it's more *precise.* By YOUR standards. Also by the standards
- of people who discuss points of language. Calling syntax or usage
- "grammar" in a discussion of word change and evolution is at least
- as sloppy -- by any standard I can think of -- as using "more unique"
- in formal speech.
-
- >>>Oh, go to sleep. We aren't talking about "head" or "set" or any of those
- >>>words that has more definitions than Baskin-Robins has flavors. We're
- >>>talking about a word with a very precise meaning...or more to the point,
- >>>which many people believe has a very precise meaning. You obviously
- >>>don't. I wonder...would you yourself ever use "most unique" in your
- >>>writing?
-
- >>"Most unique items command a high price." 8-)
-
- >Well done. About the only place I'd use it too.
-
- >>Seriously, though, I might in some situations. (Not that this is strictly
- >>the topic we were once addressing: "quite" was the modifier people were
- >>getting all het up about. This would seem to be a traditional pastime,
- >>btw; that particular modifier is the crux of many arguments about the
- >>whole issue.)
-
- >In other words: "Oh, 'most unique' is perfectly fine usage, and I'm
- >confident that it will prevail. I might even use it in my own writing
- >in some situations...someday, maybe, but not likely." I'll bet you a
- >Handel opera CD that you'd never use it in any writing of even the least
- >significance, any more than you'd use "less notes" or "axe."
-
- Not with Wilson Follett's son-in-law editing me... 8-) But of course
- you're right. I wouldn't use it there. I might use it in informal
- speech or a letter, though.
-
- >>But anyway, we have seen that "unique" *does* and always has had more than
- >>one meaning (at least since it took on the "one-of-a-kind" meaning, which
- >>was not its original one), so the "many people believe" argument begs
- >>all kinds of questions: which people? Why do they believe it? What of
- >>all the other clearly accepted meanings? Keep "head" in mind, and stay
- >>awake. And ask yourself why context, which works so well in keeping our
- >>"head" on straight, would suddenly fail us with "unique."
-
- >Okay. here we go.
-
- > "We want you to head up the Schoenberg Symposium."
- > "After listening to her paper, I've come to the conclusion that
- > she really has a head on her shoulders."
-
- >Little chance of confusion.
-
- > "I enjoyed the Symposium. it was a unique opertunity to hear so
- > many Schoenberg scholars in one place."
-
- And to hum so many oper-tunes from his operas...
-
- >Now, was it just an unusual symposium? or was it truly one of a kind?
-
- In this case, who cares? Would anyone uttering that sentence really
- care that the 1974 Centenary Conference actually had a slightly higher
- attendance? Would anyone listening care? What information, this side
- of real trivia, would not be readily available to someone aware of the
- two meanings? What's lost here in terms of communication? We're not
- proving theorems with a sentence like that; and the *point* of the
- sentence is certainly that the event was highly unusual. One would not
- want to contradict the statement with an observation about other
- conferences past or future, even if, factually, there were a counterexample
- to the "one-of-a-kind" assertion.
-
- And this is, of course, how the second meaning became so widespread.
- The difference between "ultra-rare" and "one-of-a-kind" is very small
- and unimportant in most contexts, this one being a fine example.
-
- >>>I see the spelling "wierd" more often than "weird." That doesn't make the
- >>>former correct.
-
- >>Of course not, because our society has a universal standard of spelling.
- >>We do not have a universal standard of speaking or wroting, though--or
- >>at least not one of that kind.
-
- >We have a universal standard of spelling? Why, Roger? Is there any loss
- >of information between "weird" and "wierd"? between "fought" and "faught"?
- >Between "vinyl" and "vynil"? Not likely, yet we have it anyway.
-
- There's plenty of information loss -- as soon as you try to search
- alphabetized information. Spelling is not language; it's part of a
- codification of language. It has different purposes.
-
- >>>I don't recall ever stating that anyone was ignorant.
- >>>That I disagree with you is fine by me, but I have no intention of accusing
- >>>you of "not being bright enough" to understand things in context. You
- >>>however, obviously take a certain pride in crafting insolent responses to
- >>>ideas that you don't like.
-
- >>"It's wrong because it's wrong because I say it's wrong" is far more insolent
- >>than anything I've ever posted, and that's the ONLY argument you've
- >>ever brought to these discussions.
-
- > a) no it isn't. It's just what you choose to reduce it to.
- > b) I never said "It's wrong because it's wrong because I say
- > it's wrong."
-
- What *else* have you said? What arguments about this word have you
- borught to the table? What evidence? (Note: the current posting
- is something of an exception.)
-
- > c) Even if, _arguendo_, that had been my argument, there is a
- > difference between such a thing and "are you not bright
- > enough to figure it out?" or "What will impress you? A
- > blow to the head?" Emily Post would be proud of you.
-
- You know, Gabe, I started out cordially enough. But after a while
- the repeated, unbacked assertions can get to one.
-
- >>Where did you get your initiation into the mysteries of linguistic
- >>correctness, then? Can I come too, sometime? I'd love to learn.
-
- >You should first learn how not to be crass and contemptuous.
-
- Funny, "misuse" and "slovenly" and "sloppy" all sound pretty contemptuous
- to me.
-
- Roger
-
-