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From: WF02::IN%"Info-IBMPC%wsmr-simtel20.ARMY.mil@WS5.CIS.TEMPLE.EDU" 16-JAN-1993 09:16:42.96
To: James Gerber <GERBER@TMPLCIS.BITNET>
CC:
Subj: Info-IBMPC Digest V93 #5
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Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1993 02:03:51 GMT+1
From: Info-IBMPC Digest <Info-IBMPC%wsmr-simtel20.Army.mil@WS5.CIS.TEMPLE.EDU>
Subject: Info-IBMPC Digest V93 #5
Sender: Info-IBMPC redistribution list <$$INFOPC@RICEVM1.BITNET>
To: James Gerber <GERBER@TMPLCIS.BITNET>
Reply-to: Info-IBMPC%wsmr-simtel20.ARMY.mil@WS5.CIS.TEMPLE.EDU
Info-IBMPC Digest Fri, 15 Jan 93 Volume 93 : Issue 5
Today's Editor:
Gregory Hicks - Rota Spain <GHICKS@wsmr-simtel20.Army.Mil>
Today's Topics:
8513 monitors
Adaptec 1542B SCSI and OS/2 2.0
any Hotel Reservation Systems ?
Damage To Monitor Due To WHAT??? (OAK) HELP! (2 msgs)
Fractint floating point hangs
Hayes Smartmodem 1200
IBM XT upgrade (2 msgs)
What is "igate"?
Latest WINBENCH?
Limiting access to a disk partition on IBM PC (seeking)
Memory-searcher
Partial Answer to XT Hard Drive Problem
POP clients
Tandy 1000TX Problem
Using HD disks as DD disks
Who knows a good 600 dpi upgrade board?
Send Replies or notes for publication to: <INFO-IBMPC@brl.mil>
Send requests of an administrative nature (addition to, deletion from
the distribution list, et al) to: <INFO-IBMPC-REQUEST@brl.mil>
Addition and Deletion requests for UK readers should be sent to:
<INFO-IBMPC-REQUEST@DARESBURY.AC.UK>
Archives of past issues of the Info-IBMPC Digest are available by FTP
ONLY from WSMR-SIMTEL20.ARMY.MIL in directory PD2:<ARCHIVES.IBMPC>.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 11:43:22 -0500
From: ae557@yfn.ysu.edu (Ken Meinken)
Subject: 8513 monitors
Several people have asked about the IBM policy on fuzzy 8513 monitors.
Here is an OLD IBM statement. Unless it has been extended, I'm afraid
that anyone currently with the problem may be too late (but you can
call the number to check.)
1. DESCRIPTION: 8513 Focus / Color Purity Problems
REPLACEMENT CRITERIA: Failing 8513 Monitors which meet BOTH of the
following specifications are candidates for replacement:
1. Serial Number is below 72-0640000
2. Displayed Text or Graphics is out of Focus
WARRANTY EXTENSION: IBM will replace failing monitors for 3 years from
the date of purchase. IBM service should be contacted via normal
dispatching procedures (1-800-IBM SERV).
2. DESCRIPTION: 8513 failing with a bright horizontal line across screen
REPLACEMENT CRITERIA: Failing 8513 Monitors which meet BOTH of the
following specifications are candidates for replacement:
1. Serial Number is below 72-0210000
2. Bright Horizontal Line across Screen
WARRANTY EXTENSION: IBM will replace failing monitors for 2 years from
the date of purchase. IBM service should be contacted via normal
dispatching procedures (1-800-IBM-SERV).
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 12:22 GMT+0200
From: Marc Esser <MARC@ITC.NL>
Subject: Adaptec 1542B SCSI and OS/2 2.0
Dear netters!
I am planning to install an OS/2 2.0, but heard some rumors about
difficulties with SCSI harddisks. Furhermore, there is Unix currently
installed on the machine, including a DOS partition. The configuration
is: 486DX33/4MB, Quantum SCSI disk with Adaptec 1542B controller. The
disk is partitioned and formatted for SCO UNIX/386 V3.2, with one 32MB
Unix-accessible DOS partition (C:) and one 40MB DOS partition that is
NOT Unix-accessible. The boot sector is occupied by Unix: turning the
computer on gives the following prompt " SCO UNIX V/386
Boot
: ",
requesting the partition to boot from ('DOS' or 'hd(40)unix').
Additionally, I need to know whether OS/2 includes streamer support for
JUMBO QIC-80, so that I can somehow move (and convert?) my data to the
new OS?! The streamer is built in, connected to the floppies (no
adapter card but split cable) and works fine in DOS and UNIX with the
original Colorado driver software, even when interchanging data between
UNIX and DOS.
Any hints would be greatly appreciated; to the list or by personal
Email. Thanx!
Marc Esser (MARC@ITC.NL on Internet/Bitnet)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 93 19:33:45 GMT
From: "Dave P." <DARCYD90@IRLEARN.UCD.IE>
Subject: any Hotel Reservation Systems ?
Does anyone out there know of such a thing as a hotel management
system?
Ideally the system would run on a PC under DOS.
If possible, an integrated accounting system including the reservation
system the preferred choice. Alternatively, a system with good links to
any accounting system would suffice. BTW the system is to be used in an
Irish context; US or Continental European accounting systems may not be
appropriate !
Any pointers (even to lists better suited to this type of query),
expierences, addresses, etc all much appreciated.
A good response warrants a summary posting back to this list !
Thanks in advance, Dave P.
------------------------------
Date: 30 Dec 92 20:42:28 GMT
From: whare@ac.dal.ca
Subject: Damage To Monitor Due To WHAT??? (OAK) HELP!
I NEED HELP!
Is anyone familiar with the OAK OTI-077 chip found on OAK video cards?
Are they ONLY for 486s? And if so, will they damage monitors running on
386s?
If this is not the case, what could be the cause of flashing on the
screen, like MAJOR flickering and a yellowing of whites? Anyone?
If you don't know the answer could you send me to a proper newsgroup?
Thanks
------------------------------
Date: 31 Dec 92 09:27:00 GMT
From: Terry Chan <twcaps@tennyson.lbl.gov>
Subject: Damage To Monitor Due To WHAT??? (OAK) HELP!
whare@ac.dal.ca writes:
+
+Is anyone familiar with the OAK OTI-077 chip found
+on OAK video cards? Are they ONLY for 486s? ...
No, they are not only for 486s. The monitor is independent of the
processor. We have had 386 and 486 boxes running this card (and
others).
+If this is not the case, what could be the cause ...
First, check you connections. Esp. in the back of the monitor.
Otherwise it sounds like your monitor is on the way out. The Oak card
is a very cheap SVGA card ($40-$50) as far as these cards go. The ones
I have support refresh rates up to 56 Hz or so, hence many people
experience major flicker. However, bad color has usually been either a
bad connection or a bad monitor.
Try swapping other cards and see if the problem repeats. You might
also try to ask comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware (something like that).
Terry Chan
--
Energy and Environment Division | Internet: TWChan@lbl.gov
Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory |
Berkeley, California USA 94720 | Carpe per diem
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 93 11:54 CST
From: Dave Ulrick <A01DGU1%NIU.bitnet@uicvm.uic.edu>
Subject: Fractint floating point hangs
I recently purchased an 80387SX-33 clone (IIT "something") for use with
my 80386SX-25 machine, with the hope of speeding up the generation of
some of Fractint's fractal types. Indeed, this is what has happened;
certain types that used to *crawl* in integer mode are now plotted at
an acceptable speed. Unfortunately, I have experienced system hangs
when certain fractal types (e.g., mandelfn) are being calculated using
the floating point algorithm. The workaround for this is simple:
leave "Floating point algorithm?" set to no. However, other fractal
types default to floating point algorithms, and many types that
otherwise use integer algorithms switch to floating point when I zoom
in several times.
The applicable software is:
MS-DOS 5.00
QEMM 6.00
DESQview 2.40
Fractint 17.2
I've tried using the "FPU=NOIIT" parm in SSTOOLS.INI; it seems to make
no difference. I have let "FLOAT=" default to "NO"; it is when I
switch it to "YES" that I see many of my hangs.
I have run the IIT-provided diagnostic and benchmark routines without
any problem being reported. Although I normally run Fractint under
QEMM and DESQview, I can recreate the problem with a "clean" system
(i.e., no AUTOEXEC.BAT and no device drivers in CONFIG.SYS). Loading
F4X4INT.COM does not seem to make any difference. I have not
encountered any problems with any other 80x87-aware software, including
Turbo Pascal and Geoclock. I downloaded several fractal generators
from a SIMTEL20 mirror today, so I'll see if the problem occurs when
using any of those programs.
Any ideas before I try bugging the authors of Fractint?
Thanks!
Dave (a01dgu1@mvs.niu.edu)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 9:29:25 -0800 (PST)
From: "RONALD W. FRYE" <FRYE@lll.llnl.gov>
Subject: Hayes Smartmodem 1200
Hello Netlanders...
I need your help. I have just received from a friend, a Hayes
Smartmodem 1200 in perfect working condition, but without
documentation. Behing the front panel is an 8-position dip switch. I
need to know what each switch position controls. Would one of you out
there please send me an e-mail with an explanation for each switch's
position? Thanks in advance!
Ron Frye
INTERNET e-mail: frye1@llnl.gov
AOL e-mail: ronfrye@aol.com
------------------------------
Date: 30 Dec 92 07:41:37 GMT
From: Pickaxe <jdg41088@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu>
Subject: IBM XT upgrade
Keywords: XT
slc@a2.cim.cdc.com (Steve Chesney x4662) writes:
>At my wife's job (a church) she is obligated to use a vintage IBM XT with
>a 10 meg hard disk, color display and IBM PC-DOS 2.10.
>Since she is used to our 386, it seems slow to her. Are there any cheap and
>simple upgrades that we could try to alleviate this? I am considering:
>upgrade to MS-DOS 5.0
>use of a console driver like NANSI
>use of a disk cache
>optimize the disk (with something PC TOols Optimize)
>check disk interleave and adjust (with SpinRite or PC Tools DiskFix)
No matter what you do, it'll still be an XT. Depending on how much
memory it has, (I'm guessing not any more than a meg maximum) and how
much memory the programs use, you may or may not have much success at
the disk cache and other memory type solutions. I tried all of this on
an old XT turbo that I was "blessed" with and it didn't seem to make
that much of a difference. Either way, it still will never come close
to comparing to the relatively blinding speed of a 386. But you work
with what you got, so good luck.
p.s. Remember when we got so excited about the intoduction of the 386.
I'm just waiting until Cray comes out with a desktop model. :)
--
| Joe Gross | Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering |
| pickaxe@uiuc.edu | University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign |
| (217) 328-4331 | "I've given up trying to stay ahead of the times, |
| NeXTmail welcome | it's now a matter of how far I get left behind." |
------------------------------
Date: 30 Dec 92 17:09:29 GMT
From: gordon hlavenka <cgordon@vpnet.chi.il.us>
Subject: IBM XT upgrade
Keywords: XT
slc@a2.cim.cdc.com (Steve Chesney x4662) writes:
>At my wife's job (a church) she is obligated to use a vintage IBM XT with
>a 10 meg hard disk, color display and IBM PC-DOS 2.10.
>upgrade to MS-DOS 5.0
Bad move. If necessary for software compatibility, upgrade to DOS 3.3.
On an XT, 5.0 will use more conventional memory. There's no
appreciable speed gain from changing DOS versions, though, so if 2.10
runs all the software she needs to run, then leave 2.10 in place.
>use of a console driver like NANSI
If you need an ANSI driver, NANSI or something like that would speed
things up a bit. But few programs actually require ANSI support -- and
even a "fast" ANSI-replacement will be slower than no ANSI at all. So
try running without ANSI support; if all the software works leave ANSI
out of the picture. Otherwise, use NANSI or somesuch. DOS' ANSI.SYS
is a pig.
Display enhancers (like ANSI or Windows) should only be used when
specifically required by essential software.
>use of a disk cache
Will speed up disk access, at the expense of conventional memory. You
didn't mention an EMS board, so I'm assuming the system doesn't have
one. Remember you can't load anything into "high" memory on an XT! In
any case, unless your software is disk-intensive the speedup -- while
dramatic -- will only affect certain operations.
From: Leonard Erickson <leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com>
Without an EMS board there's nowhere to *put* the cache except in
the 640k that everything else is trying to use. So you'd increase the
performance at the cost of breaking any RAM hungry software!
>optimize the disk (with something PC TOols Optimize)
This one never hurts (provided you do a backup first!) You will only
actually need to optimize your disk once or twice a year, if speed is
your only concern. Most people optimize _way_ too often.
>check disk interleave and adjust (with SpinRite or PC Tools DiskFix)
This will help if the interleave is non-optimal. Of course, you only
need to do it once in the life of the machine. (Unless you make a
MAJOR change to the hardware!)
>Any other ideas?
Replace the 8088 processor with an NEC V20. This will speed things up
a little. The cost is under $10 and it can be done by anyone brave
enough to open the machine -- it's just a chip swap. (Also this is one
of those "MAJOR" changes -- see above :-)
You could also speed things up nicely by changing to a newer hard disk
(the XT drives have access times approaching 100 msec!) or dropping in
a 286 booster. But if you have that kind of money available, you'd be
better off spending it on an actual 286 machine (Great deals these
days!) rather than kludging a 286 into an 8-bit machine.
From: Leonard Erickson <leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com>
Shop around for an old EMS board. There are a lot of 8-bit only ones that
won't run at anything above 8 MHz bus speed. They're often available for
under $20 (without ram, but then the 256k chips (or even 64k!!) thery use
are *very* cheap). Adding one will give a place for many programs to
swap to, and allow you to have things like a cache. The swapping will
make a *major* performance difference to any program that can use the
EMS!
In general, my upgrade philosophy is:
1- Don't fix what works. ("First, cause no harm.")
2- Upgrade the hardware first, then the software. The same old
program on a faster machine is usually faster than the new version on
tired old iron.
3- If the proposed "upgrade" costs more than 25% of the cost of a new
machine, consider biting the bullet and replacing the machine.
Gordon S. Hlavenka cgordon@vpnet.chi.il.us
Vote straight ticket Procrastination party Dec. 3rd!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 12:51:16 -0500
From: Jennifer Spielberger <jspielbe@acunix.wheatonma.edu>
Subject: igate
Has anyone heard of a software package called 'igate'? It is an SMTP
gateway. If anyone could tell me where I could get more info about it
I'd greatly appreciate it!
Happy New Year!
Jennifer Spielberger
jspielbe@wheatonma.edu
------------------------------
Date: 06 Jan 1993 00:19:05 +1100
From: antony@werple.apana.org.au (Antony Suter)
Subject: Latest WINBENCH ?
Can some one please point me to the latest Winbench for ftp.
Preferably version 2.5 or 3.0. Does anyone know what version PC Mag
used in October to test local bus and accelerated video cards? Thanks.
Antony Suter [0] antony@werple.apana.org.au
Melbourne, Australia [1] s871780@rmit.edu.au
"Call me Jack - stranger things have happened!"
------------------------------
Date: 30 Dec 92 13:01:04 GMT
From: David Tal <GSRGAAO%technion.bitnet@BRL.MIL>
Subject: Limiting access to a disk partition on IBM PC (seeking)
I am looking for a utility program for the following application:
At the Technion we have an IBM computer available for student use,
which has on it a C: hard disk which contains programs for student
instruction. The same computer also has a D: partition on the same
hard disk, which is needed for faculty use only.
I should like to have a program which will allow students access
to the C: partition (with password?), but at the same time will not
allow access to the D: disk partition. This is a little like on the
VMS or UNIX systems where one can set read, write, or execute access to
any individual file, but in my case I want the access to be limited to
an entire directory or disk drive. Of course there must be some other
way, whereby the faculty can access the D: drive, via password or
other means.
If anybody has such a program, I would be grateful if he would
send it to me. Or if available via anonymous FTP, if you could give me
the location and file name. Many thanks.
David Tal, Departement of General Studies,
Technion Haifa, Israel
GSRGAAO@TECHNION.TECHNION.AC.IL
------------------------------
Date: 4 Jan 93 18:46:25 GMT
From: Mark Wilson <mark@ocsmd.ocs.com>
Subject: Memory-searcher
A friend is looking for a DOS utility which will search memory, both
low and high, and report if a particular program has been loaded. For
instance, if the utility is called "findprog", you might enter
"findprog mytsr" to see if "mytsr" has been loaded. Does anyone know
of a utility like this? Even better if it returns the address, I
suppose, but the simple fact of its existence or non-existence being
returned would be sufficient. (He's setting up networks and wants, as
I understand it, to be able to test for drivers which someone else may
or may not have loaded. I have NO DETAILS on this, it's just a
paraphrase of what he told me, and he doesn't have Internet access
yet.)
A possible kludge to obviate the necessity of using a utility like the
above would be to use MARK and RELEASE, but his versions are REAL
old... does anyone have the latest versions of these?
PLEASE no flames, this is for a friend as I said... email, respond
here, or call the 800 number below. THANKS!
Mark Wilson, Online Computer Systems. 1-800-922-9204 or 1-301-601-2215
(Try email address mark@wilson.ocs.com....)
This file .disclaims everything signed with my .signature, I .mean it!
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 93 10:44:44 EST
From: T_MCMICHAEL%W035_NW@mwmgate1.mitre.org
Subject: Partial Answer to XT Hard Drive Problem
I just wanted to thank everyone for their suggestions concerning the
problem I was having with the XT-Clone that would not boot from the
hard drive (Info-IBMPC Digest V92 #186). Something I did not share
with everyone, because I didn't think that it mattered, was that I was
attempting to use Digital Research (DR) DOS version 6.0. Well, as it
turns out, after reformatting the hard drive with MS DOS 3.3, the
computer will now boot from the hard drive.
I have sent a message off to Digital Research (drdos@novell.com) to
find out if this is a known problem. So far, their only response has
been that DR DOS "should" work on an XT, but there is no obvious
concern evident in the initial response. I have asked again, pointing
out that I ran SpinRite on the hard drive at its deepest pattern
testing, ran FDISK, and formated it three times with DR DOS and nothing
seemed to work. Only when I went back to Microsoft DOS did the
computer boot from the hard drive.
Thanks again to everyone for your assistance! * * * Ted McMichael *
Phone: 703-883-7408 Fax: 703-883-6436 * Internet:
Ted@MITRE.ORG Prodigy: HGXR83A
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 08:47:32 -0500
From: Jennifer Spielberger <jspielbe@acunix.wheatonma.edu>
Subject: POP clients
Happy New Year everyone!
Does anyone know of a POP client for the PC? I'm not just looking for
the "sender/receiver", but a "reader" as well. Actually, just the
reader would be OK since the client (POP3) came bundled with FTP
Software's PC/TCP but the reader (vmail) is not very friendly.
Any help would be much appreciated!!
Jennifer Spielberger
jspielbe@wheatonma.edu
------------------------------
Date: 05 Jan 1993 11:39:25 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jon Brazelton, Residence Hall Coordinator" <JPB7946@tntech.edu>
Subject: Tandy 1000TX Problem
HELP! I am having a serious problem with my Tandy 1000TX, and I am
hoping someone can offer some assistance. First of all ... I know, the
1000TX is a piece of crap, but I'm a college student, and I'm stuck
with it until I graduate.
PROBLEM: I just bought a new printer (bubble jet), so that I can start
printing high quality resumes. However, I have a lot of other work
that I use my computer for that I don't want to waste the bubble jet
on, so I want to use my old dot matrix printer too.
ATTEMPTED SOLUTION: I purchased an A/B switch, with all the needed
cables. My hope was to be able to select which printer I would use
through the switch.
NEXT PROBLEM: The 1000TX uses a stupid Edge Card (?) for a printer
output. I cannot find this type connector anywhere, other that on a
cable with a Centronix connector on the other end. However, all of the
switches I have found so far need at DB25 connector. So, everything I
bought is now useless.
NEED: What I need is _any_ one of the following:
1. Cable with Tandy edge card connector on one end, and DB25
male on the other
2. An adapter to convert the Tandy edge card to a DB25 female
3. An A/B switch box with a Centronix 36 input connector, and
2 DB25 female connectors for output.
4. ANYTHING ELSE THAT WOULD SOLVE MY PROBLEM!!
Thank you for any assistance you can offer.
Jon Brazelton / N4VRN
Residence Hall Coordinator First Lieutenant (P), Signal Corps
Tennessee Technological University 278th Armored Cavalry Regiment
Cookeville, Tennessee Tennessee Army National Guard
JPB7946 @ TNTECH.edu
------------------------------
Date: 30 Dec 92 10:40:13 GMT
From: Bruce Bathurst <bathurst@phoenix.princeton.edu>
Subject: Using HD disks as DD disks
Keywords: disks, disk drive
This is a confusing subject. I take it that trying to format the 3.5"
disk produces "Bad or Invalid Media" (sic) and trying the 5.25" gives
"Track 0 Bad, Disk Unusable" Put a piece of opaque tape over the notch
opposite the write-protect notch and a HD 3.5" diskette is DD is
wearing the clothes of DD and will format, read, and write DD. The
only cure for the 5.25" disk is a kludge: put a 360K disk in the drive,
issue FORMAT, after DOS reads the boot record it says "...Press RETURN
to start" (or something) pull out the 360K and put in the 1.2 Mb disk.
The problem is this. The 5.25" floppies double their capacity by
doubling the number of tracks. Hence the wide read head of the lower
density drive can't read a single track, and it can't read the disk's
boot record.
The 3.5" floppies double their capacity by doubling the number of
sectors in a track. Hence the track density is the same for DD and HD,
and the lower density drive will read the boot record without problem.
Oh, no! People can format HD disks in DD drives! We'll put a hole
through the diskette case, so the machine will know there is a floppy
with a thin coating in the drive and will refuse to cooperate with such
unorthodox behavior.
This concern with improper use was explained nicely by the last
respondant (but which I'll expand on anyway). HD diskettes are coated,
like DD, but then polished more to reduce surface bumps that would
produce magnetic irregularities. This thins the coating. The lower
density drive is designed to penetrate a thick coating with magnetism;
when it does this to the thin coating, the magntic domains grow
sideways rather than downward and may interfere with other tracks.
Mother Industry protects us from such folly (though it may work).
Bruce (Gypsy Scholar)
--
Department of Geological and Geophysical Sciences
Princeton University, Princeton, NJ 08544
bathurst@phoenix.princeton.edu bathurst@pucc.bitnet !princeton!phoenix!bathurst
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 93 14:46:34 BRA
From: Amaury Bentes <PUR01001%UFRJ.BITNET@pucc.princeton.edu>
Subject: Who knows a good 600 dpi upgrade board ?
A happy new year to all PC-Lers!
I'm in charge of a small Art Studio/Bureau which has been using a
Canon LBP 8 Mark III 300 dpi laser printer since 1990. It was a very
good printer then because it was suited to our needs. Unfortunately
market competition and the outcoming of newer technologies have set it
to obsolecence (concerning to professional uses, of course it is still
very adequate to office and home use).
We spent a lot of money and would like to get the best of it because
it is still in a very good shape. The problem is that WE DO NEED a 600
dpi resolution or we will get choked by a wild competition from many
home DTPers which just buy a PC (or Mac) and can offer lower
composition prices because they don't pay any taxes and have no
employees as we do.
A possible solution would be to buy a HP4 but to me it looks like
nonsense, because we would get a very low price if we tried to sell our
Canon 300 dpi printer.
We then agreed that the best solution would be to buy a 600 dpi
resolution card (or "kit") for our printer. And that's why I'm writin
these lines I've been told about a company named DPTek making a 660 dpi
upgrade board but I don't know whether it can be used to enhance a
Canon resolution.
I'd be very happy to know about other brand names making such cards.
If any of you know about these boards please send me a private E_mail.
I' m mostly interested in their technical capacities and of course, an
affordable price. Did anybody has already used one of these boards? Are
there any drawbacks?
This is very important to our survival as Desktop publishers in a
country where professional use of computers (due to harsh reserve
market laws) have always been a painfull process.
Thank you in advance
======================
AMAURY DA GAMA BENTES PUR01001@UFRJ
U.F.R.J.
======================
------------------------------
End of Info-IBMPC Digest V93 #5
*******************************
-------