Stars of Shareware: Raytrace & Morphing/SOS-RAYTRACE.ISO/programm/texte/docsur.txt

Text File | 1994-04-25 | 54.8 KB | 990 lines

"Yost's Online Doc Survey"
you'd spend the time to help. (Lurkers, here's your chance to help me out!)
Here goes:
1)  On a scale of 1-10 (10 being best), how would you rate
    the usefulness of the current 3DS hardcopy documentation?
2)  What are your opinions about seeing more of the 3DS
    documentation in the future published in an on-line help
    format? (feel free to be as verbose as you want here)
3)  Which part of the hardcopy documentation (if any) do
    you think would be better implemented in an on-line
    help system?
4)  The corollary to 3... Which part of the hardcopy
    documentation do you think would be unsuitable for
    an on-line help system?
Please respond here (not via email). I'd like to see a very high number of
responses, since I need a pretty large sample rate to make any definitive
assumptions about what ya'll want in the future.
Thanks!
=====================================================================
rachel rosenthal
71064,1654
Yost Group 76702,413
Answers:
#1) 10, very best.
#2) ilike books best; they are quiet and help contemplation. Its like there's
the voice in the book and then there is 3DS that talks with a different voice; I
like to keep the two voices in separate worlds or they get mixed up. I would
like a ring binder on the books though; because it falls off the table and falls
on the keyboard all the time; and closes up by itself and then falls off the
table. thank you.
#3 & #4) i will let you know; i am going to sit down w/ the     books(human's best
friend) soon.
good luck!
=====================================================================
Gus J Grubba
70673,1605
Yost Group 76702,413
The single best reason to have an on line help system is
the ability to search for words. Browsing indexes is a nightmare to say the
least. I think the search engine and a hefty data dictionary are the most
important aspect of any online help system. Once the desired data is found, the
full text could be present for a quick browse but a reference to the written
documentation (book title and page number) is important as well. Just take a
look at the Microsoft Developers Network CD. That's the best tool I have
ever seen. Its main problem though is that it doesn't
give a reference to the written documentation. I have a wall to wall section on
Microsoft documents. Every time I have to find something it's a nightmare as I
don't even know which of the 300 books I should be looking for. Once you find
the right book, you have to go through the indexes and they are never laid out
in the same way as your questions. Being able to browse several references at
once is a dream come true.
=====================================================================
John Foust/Syndesis Corp
76004,1763
Gus J Grubba 70673,1605
And there's a growing market of tools to make it easy to convert
your paper-based documentation into online help. Certainly Microsoft makes it
easy to convert Word docs to help format, but there's similar conversions
possible between, say, Frame and DOS and Windows help engines. It's not
necessarily either/or, especially with a product like 3D Studio that has a high
price that could justify both types of docs. It's only the ultra-cheap,
get-it-all-on-CD-for-$79-retail kind of products that
emand online docs. All the Mac's docs are online, including the expensive
shelf-filling paper ones. You can search it all by keyword if necessary. Very
nice!
=====================================================================
rachel rosenthal
71064,1654
Gus J Grubba 70673,1605hen the question is... is there a better way than a hardcopy
reference. Personally I don't think so. On-line help, by its very nature is
condensed. I find on-line help frustrating in all applications I've seen them
used including Windows and Hypertext. So personally, I like the way you've done
the online help as I can delete it. In other wo
ds if you're going to further develop on-line help keep it seperate from the
program as you have. Save the code and size for advanced features. One other
significant factor is intuitive design. In other words is there a natural logic
to how the program works. That is your best guarantee that people won't be
frustrated. Many people just don't like to read. Especially graphics people. <g>
There are some features like the "delete keys" in the keyframer and the "hide
keys" which are not intuitive.
So in sum, good logical design and good hard-copy documentation are the best
IMHO. FWIW I like the reference book best. I never could get through the
tutorials, sorry but they're really boring. So I don't want to see more of the
documentation provided for in on-line help, unless its a supplement and unless I
can delete it. (Don't want it built into the program.)
I find on-line help lacking and typically does not have the information I
want.
-JE
=====================================================================
Fred W. Heidingsfelder 76556,744
Yost Group 76702,413
Gary,
I think that the 3DS docs are some of the best software manuals ever. Very well
thought out, illustrated and with some of the best examples. I might add that
they are also pretty well indexed, not too hard to find any topic.
My personal preference is to have the mechanical descriptions available on-line
and keep the examples in the printed docs. I most often need a little prompting
on what this or that button or slider does exactly and if I could read a
sentence or two that would prod me along then I appreciate the help. On the
other hand having to drill down through several paragraphs to find that one
button is annoying. I also find it useful to have a reference to the printed
manual, for those cases when I need to refer t
 an example or re-read a section.
On the other hand the system used by Microsoft with their CD release of Word,
where they have the entire manual on a CD and a front end that makes it easy to
find a section and then read on-line, has proved to be useful when exploring new
territory. I have also found some implementations of tutorials on-line to be
useful, but then there are others that are a big pain. I think Don Hanson did a
nice job of showing off VP's features with his demo program. Once the program
has run it course, it politely ste
s aside and allows you to explore, would be a nice way to introduce a tutorial
chapter.
I hope this is what you are looking for. If I can be of more help, let me
know.
FredMs and sundry reasons I like both best. I do
love the way the manuals are now, and would hate to see them suffer for on-line
application.
OTOH, I have seen on-line manuals that are excellent. I prefer indexing through
on-line manuals, and then being able to refer to a hardcopy (not a crippled one,
either) for an in-depth resource.
It would also be nice to be able to eliminate paper waste, but I don't know
where one would begin to cut down on 3DS documentation. I think this is a case
of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". This software is so intense and large that
complete documentation is an absolute must... and Jack has been doing an
exemplary job.
I would love to see an extensive on-line manual that would give me instant
access to a large number of cross indexed subjects, and that would also allow me
to refer to the (any) book for further study.
John Tissavary (La Luna cie) I would rate them a nine. So far, every time I've had
to refer to the manuals to brush up on stuff, I have found what I was looking
for quickly. Not so with 99% of the manuals out there.
2. I would like to see a fair amount on-line, but not to replace printed
documentation. Mostly key word searches so I can quickly review a command or
function I may be unfamiliar with, a little fuzzy on, or can't remember exactly
how to do it.
3. Is this a one-or-the-other type of question? Either on-line or manual? I
think the 2d shaper, materials editor, and the keyframer would be the best
served by on-line help.
4. The tutorials.
Lastly, See Gus's response. That pretty much summs it up for
me.
=====================================================================
Robert R. Taylor
74242,1711
Yost Group 76702,413
Hope this helps a little:
1)  On a scale of 1-10 (10 being best), how would you rate
    the usefulness of the current 3DS hardcopy documentation?
        8
2)  What are your opinions about seeing more of the 3DS
    documentation in the future published in an on-line help
    format? (feel free to be as verbose as you want here)
        Yes, but don't cut down on the printed material.
        It would be nice to quickly refer to documentation
        via a click-and-learn interface.

3)  Which part of the hardcopy documentation (if any) do
    you think would be better implemented in an on-line
    help system?
        Tutorials, 3D Lofter (Steve Sherer has proved the
        usefulness of 3D Lofter... but it is not easy!), and
        definately Video Post!!
Gary, I sent you a message via normal CSERVE Mail. Did you receive it?
Robert Taylor
=====================================================================
S White    72530,267
Yost Group 76702,413
G....
Two comments:
(1) On line docs are good as long as they don't cause some weird slowing effect
on this memory intensive app.
(2) I work alot in the Foxpro world. You should check out how MS does the
online help there. By the way MS cannot claim credit for that design since Fox
Software was using that design before MS bought them out. I have found it very
good and fast. The way they use the index search in a clean manner. One really
cool thing is they provide in Foxpro a way in which 3rd party apps can create
their own help screens that look and feel like the FP help.
(3) One more thought. It would be really cool if 3DS allowed the inclusion of
IPAS routines to append their help info transparently into 3DS existing index.
SWR========================================================
Kevin Krell [CSA]
76077,2774
Yost Group 76702,413
Gary,
       I'll be brief: stick with the books. My only concession would be an
on-line *index* (referencing manual page #s), if it could be more complete than
the current printed index. I do find that I can not find many items I'd expect
to find in the book index. In part, this may be because the subject is in one of
the other manuals (such as Installation & Performance Guide for PharLap issues).
Thus, I'd just like you to add a master index, referencing the appropriate
manual & pages. As to manual conte
t itself, I'd like to see an extensive trouble-shooting section (I've done
something wrong, now how do I bail out?).


         Kevin Krell - Computer Support
Associatesdn't mind seeing more on-line documentation, but ***NOT*** at the expense
of the printed docs. I think that you need to keep the level of detail in the
printed manuals about where it is at right now. There are times when I have to
go away from the computer and really read the manuals to get the idea, and I
don't see that changing.
I don't think that ANY of the current docs would be **better** online but I
would like to see an expansion from the current "what does this command do?"
(which I do like a lot) to a more detailed form that includes what, how, and
why.
I don't think that you can move the tutorials at all from the paper manuals
without providing some kind of general purpose scripting that let you mix the
tutorials with 3DS. The long paragraphs that explain the background of things is
probably also not suitable for online help.
What would be nice is for every piece of online help to provide a page number
reference back to the manual for more information.
Chris
=====================================================================
David Stinnett 70214,774
Yost Group 76702,413
Gary,
    While I think that online docs are a good idea in general, I seem to only have
a 20% success rate in finding out what I need to know with existing help systems
in other programs I have. I think the best use of online help in 3ds would be a
complete but simple explanation (a little more detail than the present 'alt'
help) of every command and button and dialogue box, etc. and a COMPLETE index on
every conceavable aspect of 3ds with specific page #s of the hardcopy manuals.
This index should have all the normal
search abilities, plus should be able to give you related topics as well.
     I think that will give users a quick way to find what they want, without
having to search through the manuals because they already have the page #s of
all related topics according to their seach parameters right in front of them.
If a more detailed help system than that is implemented, it should be an
optional installation. Also, I like the idea someone suggested about being able
to have IPAS developers supply their own help text and have it be accesable from
the normal 3ds help.
    And the existing docs? 9.5.
                    DavidL, and there have been a few
others recently that I had to eventually thumb through likely sections looking
for. If you could make sure that every button in every screen with a unique word
could have its' own entry in the index, I'd luv ya for it...
    When I heard that Rel. 3 was going to have online help, I was really
interested. However, I find that I never use it. 3DS pushes my 486-33 to the max
usually, so I wouldn't like to load it up with more stuff than necessary. I
prefer to use "near on-line" storage, i.e. the bookshelf beside my monitor, as I
often pore through the manual while twiddling stuff on screen. I don't think the
on-screen stuff could have as much useful info as necessary without taking up
all the real estate.
    I do like the idea of an on-line index or search engine that others have
mentioned, since it would save mulling through index entries (let me see, was
that under keyframer/lights/move or...?)
    Thanks for asking, hope this helps..
=====================================================================
Noah  Kennedy
70233,3103
Yost Group 76702,413
I think the current printed doc's are excellent. I can
always find what I want and they are well written. I do wish they were bound so
that they would lie down flat and would stay open when leaning up against
something on your desk, like the Animator Pro manuals.
I would be suspicious of trying to do too much on-line. The fact is, you need
to KNOW what you're about to do in 3D Studio. I use on-line help most frequently
when I'm just "skimming the top" of an application I'm not very deep in and I'm
not very interested in getting deep into, like a new spreadsheet or graphics
program. You can learn a program this way, too, and I bet a lot of us picked up
a lot by screwing around going up and down the menu's, but in this case a brief
command summary for each command
 maybe a bit more detailed than in release 3, is sufficient.
What may be a helpful addition on-line, after the brief command summary, is to
extensively cross-reference not only the specific page/section of the manual for
an in-depth discussion, but a broader "see also" summary. The Borland compiler's
help system has that and I find it very useful.
       --Noah
=====================================================================
Steven Lee 75230,555
Yost Group 76702,413
Well Gary, I think Gus hit it right on the head. As far
as the hardcopy docs go, they really are second to none. But the only main
advantage of online documentation is the ability to search for keywords and get
fingertip access to cross references and related ideas. The existing online docs
in r3 ARE a significant help over having nothing at all though..
-- Steve
=====================================================================
Timothy w Kelley
71005,3240
Yost Group 76702,413
Dear Yost Group;
My answers to your questions.
1. Very usefull
2. On line documentaion would grow the program size. I also like to be able to
be working on a project with the book open, instead of being off-line looking
for help.
3. Short command descriptions and where to find it in the manual. Possibley
with a search funtion with wildcards.
4. Explanation of theory's
 I like 3DS very much. I feel that you folks have done and are doing a great
job with this program. In reply to blackbelt online help. If they just had a few
more tutorials explaning their program better it would help greatly. Other than
that they are most helpfull on the phone, and I have fun "not as much as with
3DS" with their program. Your tutorials are great, they give us hints on how
thing work.
Tim KelleyT=========================================
Michael E Bartlett
71033,3070
Yost Group 76702,413
I think the hardcopy docs are a 10. Although, the R3
printing, production, and packaging values were down from the previous version
and that miffed me a little but if manuals are going to be reprinted every 18
months I don't know.
As for online help and references, I personally hate it. I simply do not have
the patience. It has absolutely nothing to do with the way I work or use 3D
Studio. My approach to animation work is based on executing a vision that I have
in my mind. I want to concentrate on that and not have the tool get in the way.
So I have distinct periods where I practise with the tool, do tutorials or
experiment build my skills. This is when I will be reading the docs. The hard
disk real estate is more important to me.
=====================================================================
Neil Bloomgarden
73523,3004
Yost Group 76702,413
Dear Gary,
I have just started to learn the wonder that is 3ds and I must complement you
on n it. It is especially sweet because most people where I work use Macs and
3ds3 makesthem realize which it the better machine. (G) Anyway I think that
paper based manuals should be maintained. Not Because it is ea easier to stare
at (glassy eyed) for a longer period of time than a computer screen because of
the printed pages better resolution. OTOH a "Cliff Notes" on-line would be
helpful to use for quick reference and context
sensitive help
Finally, The Tutorials are AWSOME you could definately teach Macromedia about
putting together a decent tutorial
Best of Luck,
Neil B.Necently I picked up on a discussion of how people learn. Some people can read
something, and understand a concept clearly. Other people need Visual
stimulation to pick up a concept. I believe there was a third catagory, but it
slips my mind at this time. I must have read it somewhere, so I don't
remember.
I am one that cannot get that much out of reading. I don't like to read. Even
though I do the tutorials, I do not grasp the essentials being taught, unless
someone shows me. I like to see it demonstrated. The manuals are great, and they
have all the information in them, but sometimes I cannot find what I am looking
for. In this case online indexing allowing searches for all key words or simalar
variants and where they are found in the printed manual would be GREAT.
The on-line manuals I have used have been very limited in information. They
were almost useless. In your case, if you put everything that is now in the
manual online, maybe the information would be available, but then sometimes it
is difficult to locate depending upon the hyper-text engine.
Another item I'm against is more hard disk space lost for "JUST TEXT".
I wouldn't like 3D Studio exclusively online because my computer is too
expensive to use as a text reader. But I would have plenty of time to read the
printed manual while it is rendering. My renders typically range from 5 to 30
minutes per frame. So that would be a lot of time I couldn't read the online
manual.
If picture is worth a thousand words. An animation or video must be worth
1,800,000 words each minute. I can't read that fast! <G> Improvements I would
like to see are a video of the neat features. The Animator software had a video.
Corel Draw has had videos. It is a quick way to see how to do something, then do
it. I would watch the video, then go do it. I attended an Autodesk presentation
on 3D Studio where they showed how to morph a 57 Chevy. I took a tape recorder
to the session and recorded th
 whole thing. Then I spent the weekend learning how to do what they did. It was
most enlightening. I learned more in that 90 minute presentation (after doing it
myself) than all the books I had read to that point. Maybe I should buy
Digimations tapes? If they show stuff like that, I guess so.
The type of things I picked up on at the presentation were the 3 color grey
scale tif images and how to position them in the scene. I saw it done, but it
took me a while to find that in the manual, but without the manual, I would
never have figured out how to do it. I think initially, I could not locate (in
the manual) the key command <ALT G> for displaying the background. But I located
it on the Keyboard alternatives sheet. Months later, I found it in the manual.
If I hadn't seen this done, I may nev
r have discovered it. I knew it was there because I had seen it. This is the
type of item I would want in a hypertext reference manual online, but only to
point it out in the printed manual. Also, somehow I never realized I could morph
a car, or anything that complex. Seeing that done was an eye opener. Again, I
had to search the manual for just how to do this.
I am a pilot. I learned to fly many years ago, but within the last 6 years, I
worked for my rating as a flight instructor. One item that was pointed out in
the training is that most people learn quickest by seeing. And according to the
Federal Aviation Administration, about 85% of most peoples learning occurs via
seeing. So they emphasize that visual aids are one of the best ways to help
people learn to fly (or anything for that matter). Present information to people
so they can see what they are expe
ted to do.
3D Studio is a visual medium. If possible, make it visual.
In the discussions that recently occured between the forum members, and Black
Belt systems, someone pointed out that a software that is great for
visualization that has no graphics in it's documentation is missing the boat. I
upgraded to WinImages F/X over a month ago. I still have not had time to load it
onto my computer. If I don't have time to load it, am I going to have time to
read online docs. I would like images. Show me what it can do!
I also purchased some IPAS routines recently. I find that the documentation on
these are extremely bad! It is nice to provide the many features to the users,
but if you have 10 switches you can change, the possibility of variation on your
animation is phenominal. If my math is correct this is 10 factorial, or
10x9x8x7x6x5x4x3x2x1 possible combinations assuming only on or off. That is
3,628,800 possibilities on your animation by trying all combinations. Do I have
time to work through these for my animat
on due next week? Maybe if I don't eat or sleep, I can do it. Yeah, I think so.
That's all I have to do! <g> Do you have time to work through these to put into
a package? Maybe if you don't eat or sleep..... Obviously not. But something
more than text is needed!
A few animations provided in the packages on what effects can be produced using
what switches would make using these a lot easier. I bought these IPAS routines
thinking I could make them useful quickly. I guess I need to be a genius to
figure some of them out. One was talking about bubbles following a "Power Law
trajectory". WHAT IN THE WORLD IS THAT? I don't know. Is there an example? No.
Is there a description? I don't understand it. So I start rendering animation
number one of 3,628,800 to fig
re it out. No dinner tonight. <g>
Another thought for your longevity. Online docs provide an easier way to pirate
software. With printed doc's, no one will give away their only copy of the
manual! True, you can put it on a CD-ROM, but even though I want one, I can not
afford one yet. I spend my money on IPAS routines. <G>
Just my thoughts. I hope it helps.
Dennis Fenske
=====================================================================
Gus J Grubba
70673,1605
Dennis Fenske
72163,3252
>> my computer is too expensive to use as a text reader.
I agree with most of what you said but could not resist to comment on this one.
Hard disk space is by far cheaper than books. Specially if we are talking about
a CDROM. At a buck a piece, nothing beats that in terms of cost of goods. No to
men
tion the fact they haven't found (yet, they sure will) any spotted owl living
in a disk platter tree.
I'm not saying that the docs should be replaced by on-line media. I was the
first to say that on-line media is a great reference tool for the printed
documentation. I'm just being picky as I always seem to be...
=====================================================================
Martin Foster[Animatrix] 70303,456
Yost Group 76702,413
G-man,
1)  10.

2)  It would be OK to add a little more, but not much is needed.
3)  Maybe some examples, where appropriate.
4)  Tutorials. R
=====================================================================
Phillip L. Miller
74710,3061
Yost Group 76702,413
G-
1) The hardcopy doc's - very good, high nines (a low score here or there from
the Ukranian judge <g>).
2) On-line help - this could be good but ONLY if all the information is
obtainable. As many others have already said, the primary benefit from
on-line is the abiltiy to search for phrases & key words - this would be a
boon.
The current help format, well, it isn't, since it's more of a header
description and isn't available for each component/option/dialog/toggle of
the system. It's implimentation with the Alt key/mouse does would seem to
work a lot better then the blind & time consuming search for topics method
though - maybe in the future the combination puts you into the help list @@
that subject point?
3) Nothing from the hardcopy should be totaly replaced by on-line (it's just
too hard to "curl up in bed" with a computer). As has been said, people all
learn differently - the ideal is to present diverse tools to reach users in
varying ways. The one area that would obviously benefit from on-line would be
animated command/procedure descriptions. The ability to SEE a morph, bend,
taper, roll, motion-blur example could be very insightful, and very
cutting-edge (probably another award winner for the 3DS doc's). Many of these
cou
ld be basic wire-frames to conserve size & playback speed.
4) Not on-line: anything that is very text-intensive. I'm sure that I am not
the only one who's eyes glaze over trying to read extensive amounts of
phosper text. But after saying that, one would still want to be able to scan
for that text's key words/phrases. Hmmm, I guess it should all go in.
5)(implied) Hard-copy manual suggestions: COLOR, especially when trying to
convey lighting/material/color concepts (having color equivalants on-line
would be a 2nd-choice alternative). I can't otherwise complain about the
manuals except to say that more discussion on underlying concepts is needed
and would be very benefficial to all users.
6)(implied) On-line help format suggestions: I'm torn about the CD route. On
one hand its very slick and able to hold +600 megs. On the other hand it
would replace the WCTK (unless one had 2 CD drives) and make the help index
un-editable & un-updateable. Although I hate to say it, the AutoCAD concept
of an ascii help index that is compiled for speed does have its advantages.
An alternate might be an editable help "index" that 3DS checks and points to
any additional help files (from users, IPAS routines, or your own updates).
This would allow the core 3DS help to be compiled/protected yet added to.
- Phil
p.s. Although all of what has been suggested and said on this thread would be
somewhat useful and even fun, please don't detour programming resources from
the interface/rendering code because of it!<g>. Given that trade-off, I would
MUCH rather learn "on-line" by trial and error than sacrifice on the 3DS's
overall evolution and constant improvement.
=====================================================================
Dennis Fenske
72163,3252
Gus J Grubba 70673,1605
Gus;
Some of my suggestions were for animations. As was pointed out after my note, a
CD-ROM would be a great place for animations. I can read that kind of "text" at
1,800,000 words a minute. <g> Also as pointed out in the thread, color
animations would help immensely.
I personally didn't do the tutorials on Animator Pro for many years because
they looked blah. Just greyscale. When I finally did them, I was amazed at the
BEAUTIFUL colors possible and the creative capabilities available in animator
pro. It was my loss for not doing them. The printed manual does not do the
colors justice. For that reason, I would like a CD-ROM for animations in at
least 256 colors.
So, I think were in agreement here. <g>
Except I don't own a CD-ROM. :-(
I'm waiting for the centi-speed version (100 times as fast). <G>
Oh, I guess that's called a PAR.
DennisKe screen you are working on in front of you and
the book beside. If you have any sort of meaningful on-line doc it will fill up
the screen with text. A lot of time you might want to try something from the
book and it is always much easier to have an uncluttered screen with the book
for reference.
Also swapping back and forth between your on-screen work and help-text file is
annoying since you are unable to see minute details of your work at the same
time you are reading the help text.
I do not even use the current on-line help, but prefer to go to the reference
or some other written source.
The most useful thing to have on-line would be page number in the reference
manual.
I would also like to see more examples of some the less frequently used
commands.

JudyN of me. As
everything is networked, I usually run the "on line" help of something in one
computer while working with the program itself in the other computer. Granted
this is an orthodox method, I wonder how many people do that (work with two
computers). I just wish I could cut and paste from different computers! <g>
My office is always littered with books spread all over the floor behind and
around my chair (on top of monitors, behind the keyboard, a mess) as I keep
puling books off the shelves and just throwing them back as I'm working. Had I
had all this online, my life would be a lot easier. As I have repeatedly said, I
still think hard copy documents are necessary. Specially for heavy duty stuff
like 3D Studio. Like someone else has said, you can't (easily) bring your
computer in bed at night (or some other private places you have to go every
now and then).
Another aspect of online reading people seem not to like is that the text is
small. This is true for the "standard" (WordPerfect is the world) type user. How
many of the 3DS users use 14" monitors? I agree that reading anything longer
than a couple of phrases in a cheap 14" monitor is a pain in the neck (or in the
eye for that matter).
Judy, I'm not coming at you. It's just that your comments made me think about
other aspects I hadn't before.
=====================================================================
Jeffrey Lerer    74073,244
Yost Group 76702,413
I have found just about perfect balance between hardcopy
and online help. Online seems most effective as a reminder... tweak recall.
Whereas, the excellent documentation is always near at hand. Though I have been
using 3DS since 1.0, it is always refreshing to peek at the tutorials and user
guide to get back to the easiest way to accomplish something. There are simply
so many levels of this software, that one can only consider oneself glued to the
learning curve. It would be interest
ng to see an advanced tutorial edition released. Take a user through some very
convoluted ways of processing. A hardy congratulations on 3.0. I have been
X-static for months. Cannot recall if this is my 3rd or 4th year on 3DS
platform. I almost feel like the Yost Group sits all around my workstation...
the overall platform is a dream come true for fine arts application and
experimental work. Thank you and be aware that there are already rumors of 4.0.
Notwithstanding frontal lobe collapse, I'll just put sp
kes on my hi-tops. JeffreyK==================================
Alec Jason
71137,2632
Yost Group 76702,413
1. I'd rate the current docs about 9.


2. I would very much like to have some of the docs on on-line help.

3. Most important would be a comprehensive, hyper-text on-line index which
provides the relevant page number in the printed docs.

Beyond that I think it would be nice to have basic information available
on-line; perhaps, again, with references to the printed manual's page number
"for more help."

If you plan to have complete information on-line, _then_ a valuable feature
would be to have EXAMPLES whenever appropriate. I can learn very quickly seeing
an example of how to do something instead of reading through pages of text to
extract the information I need.

One place in the current docs (and in the R2 docs) which badly needs a few
simple examples is the "Command Line and Batch Rendering" section of the
Advanced User Guide. I spent HOURS trying to figure out which switches I needed
to include for batch rendering. A few examples simply showing several command
line setups with arrows explaining each of the switches and boldface for the
switches which are mandatory are really needed.

4. I don't think the on-line help should include all the detailed procedural
instructions like the printed docs. It's generally too hard to read that much
stuff on line.

I don't know what you're contemplating but we DO need the printed, paper docs.
Don't ever give them up. (I don't care what MS does!)

Alec JasonNwhy,
I just like books, I guess...
-Alan
=====================================================================
Don Landis
71673,3612
Yost Group 76702,413
1.  Reference guides =9; Tutorial=2
I've always gotten a pretty good answer to my questions with the reference
guides. I've tried at least a half dozen times to go through the tutorials but I
just can't seem to stay awake beyond 4 pages. I think the whole tutorial should
be replaced by a video. It wouldn't have to be a fancy production, maybe just a
tad better than the Corel Draw video. The video should show a really noce logo
treatment, then show , step by step how it was done. Then do an architectural
walk through, Then do a character
animation. Then do some IPAS ( a suttle approach to selling your IPAS
routines.) The video tutorial could be indexed as to effects and features eg.
Video layering and Video POST see the section on Logo treatments 32 minutes into
the tape. On my Video Cave MapsTM I use a real time counter in the upper right
corner of the video from beginning to end and then supply an index so the cave
diving student can quickly fast forward to the indexed section of the video.
2.  Online help is great for windows aps when they use hyper text but for
something like 3DS I think I'd prefer the manuals. I prefer spiral bound manuals
though. They lay flat on the table. I agree with Rachael on this.
3. I'd like a reference on line for hot keys, and definitions, short ones for
some of the button terms that are new with a new release. I should think that a
lengthy definition on how to save a file would be redundant waste in an on line
help file but when a new release comes out and a new button shows up like "face
map" it would be nice if I could just go to a hypertext and get a quick
explanation. When you do a help file it should be able to be eliminated at a
later date for those that consider having
his help file an insult to their expertise with 3DS <G>
4.  Don't waste time with the very basics of 3DS operation such as installation
and file handling. For instance, if the one has already installed the package
why put in a detailed description on how to install it. Keep computer basics out
of it like file handling and memory management.
Suggestion: You should do an informal survey on the tutorial:
Fin
d out just what percentage of people did go through the tutorials beginning
to end.
I tried several times and probably covered a third of it but I learned more
from an instructor faster. Sure he missed a few important points but he wasn't a
professional instructor but just one who had 6 months experience with 3DS. I
learned Corel Draw very fast with their amateur video and if I were starting out
I'd buy the videos on 3DS to learn it.
=====================================================================
Michael E Bartlett
71033,3070
Gus J Grubba 70673,1605
Gus, you are totally an exceptional case.
I am beginning to see a pattern in all of this and it seems to fall this way.
The folks who are doing development work seem to like to have everything online.
The other category, shall I say "Users" seem to prefer hardcopy reference. This
may be a premature observation but if it were true then the online documentation
should be accomodated for developers.
=====================================================================
John Tissavary
Michael E Bartlett 71033,3070
I'm a user, and I like on-line docs if they're well set up. I
haven't refered to the Photostyler docs more than twice (on the day of
installation), but have hit the help button on many occasion. It was just enough
for me to figure out what a button was, or an option for the button, and save me
the time of digging up the manual (I've got a gagillion programs on my HD,
definitely no way I can keep all those docs on my desk) and flipping through it
'till I find the right entry.
For initial learning curve, and in depth reference, hardcopy is the only way to
go IMHO, but for all else I like the convenience of computer aided indexing, and
help at the touch of a button. Some windows apps, and Autocad are good
examples.
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
=====================================================================
Gus J Grubba
70673,1605
John Tissavary 71054,15ly looking for something you aren't sure even how to search is plain
inefficient. When I'm going through heavy duty research work, I go over hundreds
of books and manuals. The time I spend looking for stuff is ridiculous.
Now, if I want to learn a specific program (specially in the nature of 3D
Studio), I will certainly get the book, find a chair and read it from cover to
cover. I do that with a "selected" group of programs (and devices for that
matter) and books just can't be replaced for that. Now, if I'm sitting in front
of my computer and have a doubt, the last thing I want is to stand up, go to the
shelf, find the book, look in the index, go to the first of 20 occurrences, not
there, oops, lost the index page, look for
it again, ok, next occurrence, oops, not that either, back to the index... this
is nuts.
Michael, on the other hand, I'm open for discussion in the "behavioral" pattern
you've found. I find that interesting as I'm far, way far away, from the average
"user".
=====================================================================
JKJ (John K. Jordan) 71174,711
Yost Group 76702,413
Humble opinions on docs:
1) Usefulness of current 3DS hardcopy: 9.6125 (UNSOLICITED
   COMMENT: The docs would be dang near perfect with a "Secrets of
   the Masters" supplement based on excerpts from the 3DS demo
   video tape)
2) Verbose, as requested...
   I dislike online documentation escalation if hardcopy suffers.
   You can't hang colored Post-it tabs out of key sections, you
   can't scribble notes in the margins, you can't correct doc
   errors, and you can't sneak it into boring staff meetings. <g>
   (Does my dept. head read this?)
   You also can't read or study online docs if the computer is
   down, rendering, or <gasp> busy with some other program.
   In the case where the hardcopy quality does not suffer, I like
   online documentation if it is complete and searchable, includes
   graphics, includes cut-and-paste where appropriate (for

   example, like MathCAD or MS languages), is hyper browsable,
   and it includes page number references to the hardcopy docs.
   I do not find current help hints in 3DSr3 to be useful,
   however they may be very useful to someone beginning to learn
   the program. They should also be VERY useful for someone using
   a cracked copy of 3DS.
   The only "online" things that makes sense to me are:
   A) a full blown CD-ROM based Help done right (full
      hypertext, with online flics, clipable 3D objects, wow
      tutorials with images of results,...) Also harder to bootleg.
      and/or
   B) little reference pointers to the hardcopy.
3) Suitable for online: The index (see 2B above).
4) Unsuitable: The sole reference, tutorial, and installation
   manuals. For those who won't read books, let'm watch TV.
         J K J
=====================================================================
jerry neslund
70233,1142
Yost Group 76702,413
A seprate CD could easly contain an extensive on line
reference and please include hardcopy docs as well, and why your at it the rest
of the program too.
Thanks, and keep up the great work.
JerryP
=====================================================================
M. G. BATCHELOR
71532,1214
Yost Group 76702,413
Response to on-line doc survey:
1) 9+
2) ONLY as an augmentation to the hard copy format.
3) None, as a replacement for hard copy doc's.....as above.
4) As above, in my opinion all applications REQUIRE hard copy doc's - while
wit
h existing hardcopy, it's *nice* to have on-line help.
I didn't get in on the Blackbelt thread re: on-line doc's, but one of the most
annoying days I've spent in recent times was weaving my way through the Windows
branching on-line doc's for WinImages F/X in order to print them all out in the
proper sequence. It took nearly all day. If a person has ONLY on-line docs
provided, they're eventually GOING to print them out themselves. Both are great,
but there is no substitute for a thorough hard copy reference - and I HATE to
read manuals. I'd personally rather see additional effort spent toward
accompanying video tape tutorials, and leave
the hard copy & on-line help about like they are now.
BILL
=====================================================================
Holger van Koll
Yost Group 76702,413
1) 10 , but: The index could be larger and better
organized. Last thing I couldn't find: Tag/Untag.
2) This would be very helpful and could save much time. On-line help was the
only thing I really missed until R3.
3) Meanings of the buttons, especially Render-Setup, -configure, Create-Lights,
Track-info etc. Just one or two sentences, references to the pages in the
manual. A key-reference.
4) Everything concerning 3ds-setup, network-rendering setup, installation.
=====================================================================
Michael E Bartlett
71033,3070
Gus J Grubba 70673,1605
Gus, you are totally an exceptional case.
I am beginning to see a pattern in all of this and it seems to fall this way.
The folks who are doing development work seem to like to have everything online.
The other category, shall I say "Users" seem to prefer hardcopy reference. This
may be a premature observation but if it were true then the online documentation
should be accomodated for developers.
=====================================================================
John Tissavary 71054,15
Michael E Bartlett 71033,3070
I'm a user, and I like on-line docs if they're well set up. I
haven't refered to the Photostyler docs more than twice (on the day of
installation), but have hit the help button on many occasion. It was just enough
for me to figure out what a button was, or an option for the button, and save me
the time of digging up the manual (I've got a gagillion programs on my HD,
definitely no way I can keep all those docs on my desk) and flipping through it
'till I find the right entry.
For initial learning curve, and in depth reference, hardcopy is the only way to
go IMHO, but for all else I like the convenience of computer aided indexing, and
help at the touch of a button. Some windows apps, and Autocad are good
examples.
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
=====================================================================
Gus J Grubba
70673,1605
John Tissavary 71054,15
>> I've got a gagillion programs on my
HD, definitely no way I can keep
 >> all those docs on my desk
You've said it all. This is exactly my problem. If you consider that every
single program manual explain how to copy a stupid disk and it takes them two to
three pages to do that, multiplied by at least 1,000 manuals I have around me,
that's New York's phone book right there.
Of course I want everything on line. The least amount of time lost flipping a
book madly looking for something you aren't sure even how to search is plain
inefficient. When I'm going through heavy duty research work, I go over hundreds
of books and manuals. The time I spend looking for stuff is ridiculous.
Now, if I want to learn a specific program (specially in the nature of 3D
Studio), I will certainly get the book, find a chair and read it from cover to
cover. I do that with a "selected" group of programs (and devices for that
matter) and books just can't be replaced for that. Now, if I'm sitting in front
of my computer and have a doubt, the last thing I want is to stand up, go to the
shelf, find the book, look in the index, go to the first of 20 occurrences, not
there, oops, lost the index page, look for
it again, ok, next occurrence, oops, not that either, back to the index... this
is nuts.
Michael, on the other hand, I'm open for discussion in the "behavioral" pattern
you've found. I find that interesting as I'm far, way far away, from the average
"user".
=====================================================================
John Tissavary 71054,15
Gus J Grubba 70673,1605'm already
familiar with, means a trip to the closet at the other end of my office, where
all the manuals are stored, and a two minute search for the right manual.
It's definitely true that the initial learning curve is best dealt with in a
hardcopy (spiral bound) manual and tutorials (video or interactive tutorials
would be even better, IMHO), but after that - and we're in total agreement here
- computer aided cross referencing and scanning is a real time saver.
John Tissavary (La Luna cie
=====================================================================
JKJ (John K.Jordan)    71174,711
Yost Group 76702,413
Humble opinions on docs:
1) Usefulness of current 3DS hardcopy: 9.6125 (UNSOLICITED
   COMMENT: The docs would be dang near perfect with a "Secrets of
   the Masters" supplement based on excerpts from the 3DS demo
   video tape)
2) Verbose, as requested...
   I dislike online documentation escalation if hardcopy suffers.
   You can't hang colored Post-it tabs out of key sections, you
   can't scribble notes in the margins, you can't correct doc
   errors, and you can't sneak it into boring staff meetings. <g>
   (Does my dept. head read this?)
   You also can't read or study online docs if the computer is
   down, rendering, or <gasp> busy with some other program.
   In the case where the hardcopy quality does not suffer, I like
   online documentation if it is complete and searchable, includes
   graphics, includes cut-and-paste where appropriate (for
   example, like MathCAD or MS languages), is hyper browsable,
   and it includes page number references to the hardcopy docs.
   I do not find current help hints in 3DSr3 to be useful,
   however they may be very useful to someone beginning to learn
   the program. They should also be VERY useful for someone using
   a cracked copy of 3DS.
   The only "online" things that makes sense to me are:
   A) a full blown CD-ROM based Help done right (full

      hypertext, with online flics, clipable 3D objects, wow
      tutorials with images of results,...) Also harder to bootleg.
      and/or
   B) little reference pointers to the hardcopy.
3) Suitable for online: The index (see 2B above).
4) Unsuitable: The sole reference, tutorial, and installation
   manuals. For those who won't read books, let'm watch TV.
=====================================================================
jerry neslund
70233,1142
Yost Group 76702,413
A seprate CD could easly contain an extensive on line
reference and please include hardcopy docs as well, and why your at it the rest
of the program too.
Thanks, and keep up the great work.
JerryP*nice* to have on-line help.
I didn't get in on the Blackbelt thread re: on-line doc's, but one of the most
annoying days I've spent in recent times was weaving my way through the Windows
branching on-line doc's for WinImages F/X in order to print them all out in the
proper sequence. It took nearly all day. If a person has ONLY on-line docs
provided, they're eventually GOING to print them out themselves. Both are great,
but there is no substitute for a thorough hard copy reference - and I HATE to
read manuals. I'd personally rather se
 ad
 ditional effort spent toward accompanying video tape tutorials, and leave
the hard copy & on-line help about like they are now.
BILL
=====================================================================
Holger van Koll 100317,3103
Yost Group 76702,413
1) 10 , but: The index could be larger and better
organized. Last thing I couldn't find: Tag/Untag.
2) This would be very helpful and could save much time. On-line help was the
only thing I really missed until R3.
3) Meanings of the buttons, especially Render-Setup, -configure, Create-Lights,
Track-info etc. Just one or two sentences, references to the pages in the
manual. A key-reference.
4) Everything concerning 3ds-setup, network-rendering setup, installation.
=====================================================================
Pavel Korensky 100271,2123
Yost Group 76702,413
1) The documentation is OK. Somewhere between 9 - 10.
2),3),4) I think that the on-line documentation is really great. Especially the
possibility to make fast searches in the docs. BUT ! the written manuals are
very necessary too. So I'll prefer to have both versions.
Best regards
PavelK
=====================================================================
Thomas Flannery    73160,121
Yost Group 76702,413
Gary,
I've been in the software business for a long time, I currently have a real job
for a company that sells high end EDA software for the design of ASICs. Our
surveys have forund that most people prefer to have hard bound documentation.
Since that is the case, we have gone to CD-ROM only documentation. (What???) the
reason is not really just to piss off the customer, but is primarily to save
mon
ey. Our software takes up over 650Mb of disk!!! and it came with a complete
bookshelf (25+ books) of documentation
hich cost us several thousand dollars to print. So to reduce our overhead cost,
we put out a CD-ROM Doc. If customers want hard copy, they can get several reams
of paper ready and print it themselves. I think this is a bum deal.... but I
don't make those kind of decisions. Our software costs a couple hundred thousand
dollars and I think for that price you should get a hard copy of the manual. In
a more esoteric area, as director of Asia/Pacific operations for the company,
when I visit a customer, I check t
 see what manuals are on the shelves of the engineers... This tells me what
other software the customer is using. Thus if the doc is on CD there is no brand
recognition/marketing effect in the end user environment. I know this is a bit
obscure, but don't under estimate the marketing power of the documentation.
At my other job here at AM Productions, IMOHO, I like the hard documentation
better than on-line CD stuff, especialy if it is an additional CD since my
CD-ROM already has the 3DS ROM for mapping paths. switching would be a hassle
and I don't think I'll go to any of the fancy Multi-CD drives. In addition, it's
difficult to follow examples/reference with an additional window covering the
primary work area. Just too cluttered for me. The tutorial may work well on CD,
but would require an awful lot of work to
ake it as interactive as the book can be.
I'd pay extra to have the manual if it came down to it.
TomW
=====================================================================
Michael E Bartlett
71033,3070 John Tissavary 71054,15
John and Gus,
Well, I have to agree with you. You have reminded me of the ACAD help which I
find I bail for because as an occasional user my memory of a command sometimes
needs a jog. But I have also nuked the help files when disk space gets critical.
Nothing is sacred when I need disk space.
It seems like an interactive CD-tutorial with cross referenced help may be a
good way to go for 3D Studio. I still would want the hardcopy. Did you notice
how nicely the Photostyler 2.0 manual is crossreferenced? It is a small manual
but is really thoughtfully organized. The tutorials are not as good as 3D Studio
IMHO.
As for the behavioral issue of the typical user that would really be a question
for marketing to answer. Microsoft really went allout to find out how their
users worked with their applications like Word and Excel identifying what they
were trying to do then redesigned them to facilitate this. It makes great
marketing sense because it yields a better product. After all, if an application
is really well designed, you won't have to go to online help to figure out how
to do something. Of course, 3D computer
graphics is an entirely new visual vernacular and we are still discovering
what we can and want to do with it. Its the "Vision Thing." <G>
Michael B.
=====================================================================
Richard J. Smith
72613,2367
Yost Group 76702,413
I like the books so I can take study away from my computers
I do think more docs are needed for IPAS
and I would like to see a CD-Rom ver. with fli*'s and *.prj
examples
=====================================================================
Jim Lammers [Trinity] 3261,66
Yost Group 76702,413
Gary:
To quote Martin Foster,
"  1)  10.

2)  It would be OK to add a little more, but not much is needed.
3)  Maybe some examples, where appropriate.
4)  Tutorials. "
and to quote MG Bachelor:
"and I HATE to read manuals. I'd personally rather see additional effort spent
toward accompanying video tape tutorials, and leave the hard copy & on-line help
about like they are now."
These two echo my thoughts. I'd like to see the effort put into creating
advanced tutorials that work with videotape, so that we can see what's happening
over time with what is being tweaked. It's just not possible any other way
(except maybe by making us render flics, which play back at varying speeds on
different systems, and are a pain when you make the user create each one).
Jim Lammers
=====================================================================
ROBERT RITGER
75050,2255
Yost Group 76702,413
Gary:
1).  9.5 2). On line help is useful to me when it includes an real world
example of what a particular command or function is used for.
3). 4).  Overviews
In general I don't rely on online help but its a convenient augmentation of the
printed manual. As others have mentioned I prefer to take the book away from the
computer and read through it so don't eliminate the manuals, please. I also like
to put notes in the margins so online help doesn't cut it.
Bob