Rat's Nest 1/ratsnest1.iso/incoming/rqkamaa.arj/LRQDAILY.A

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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 17
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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 17 Nov 1994, part 1
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Date: 17 Nov 1994 08:16:49 GMT
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X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the last issue of the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, as
you've known it.  It deals with the subjects of Avalon
Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.  It used
to be sent out once per day in digest format.

It's been great doing this.  I received many thanks from
people for taking care of the Daily, and playing a minor
role in the RQ renaissance.  But don't forget: It's you
out there who have made the Daily into what it is today.

From now on, you can subscribe to the separate glorantha
and rq-rules mailing lists.  Information on these can be
gotten from [e-mail].

Thanks to you all...

Let's meet again on Glorantha...
X-RQ-ID: index

6917: pyspas = (Paul Snow)
 - When do Orlanthi starve ?
6918: sandyp = (Sandy Petersen)
 - Re: Bad Sandy
6919: SMITHH = (Harald Smith 617 724-9843)
 - sacred time
6920: John.Hughes = (John P Hughes)
 - She Turned Me Into A Newtling
6921: Argrath = [e-mail]
 - map scales; po-mo; duelling

---------------------

From: [e-mail] (Paul Snow)
Subject: When do Orlanthi starve ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 94 15:11:01 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6917

SANDY: cultural relativism :- lifespan, hunger and death

>     In essence, I believe that the God Learners were like those
> irritating modern-day scholars who proclaim that all cultures have a
> subjective world-view, including our own (a manifest truth), but then
> go on to proclaim that therefore all cultures are equally viable and
> worthy of respect, and make their people equally happy (a manifest
> untruth).

    Aha. After a little snipe a while ago at cultural relativism Sandy

now lets rip. I can see your point here but how do we apply it to Glorantha?

    In the real world if we want to decide who is happiest and whose
culture is best we have nice quantitative measures of misery to look at and
as the CIA world handbook is available on the net we can look some facts up.
America has a higher child mortality rate than the UK, Americans pay less
taxes, are more likely to be involved in crimes of violence but also have a
lot more cars and cinemas than the UK. But I am happy to admit that the
average American is happier than the average Brit because he comes from a
culture that believes in itself.
( Actually - I don't want to turn this into a squabble about the real
world.)
    So, how can we quantitatively compare cultures in Glorantha if we
want to think about lifespan, hunger and death?

    It seems to me that we assume that Gloranthans are a happy little
lot with a negligible infant mortality rate and little hunger and
disease. Is this so? Do we have any evidence to allow cultural
comparison along these lines in Glorantha?  Is it just a matter of who
has access to the best magic or what?  I suppose the ability of a society
to organise itself to provide care (magical or otherwise) to the weak and
needy is also important so issues of family and clan versus caste and
country are also relevant.

Comments?
Paul Snow



---------------------

From: [e-mail] (Harald Smith 617 724-9843)
Subject: sacred time
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 94 11:24:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6919

Hi all--

I was wondering today about Sacred Time.  What is life like in a village
during this 2 week time period (or 1 week for Pamaltela)?  What goes on or
doesn't go on?

Clearly villagers would be involved in recreating the various myths through
their cults.  In some areas there might be a different rite each day.  In
other areas there might be a long rite that extends over several days.  But
people (and their animals) still need to eat and sleep.  Does this life go
on as normal or is each meal ritually endowed?

And what of other activity?  Do merchants still travel from village to
village peddling their wares?  Does the route they take have ritual
significance if they do?  How do people treat deaths and births in this
period?

I've always had a tendency to skip over this period in my campaign--sort
of a yearly catch-up period.  Has anyone run any scenarios reflecting
events in Sacred Time (beyond unusual heroquests like the Crown Test of
Leika Ballista written up in, I believe, WF14)?

Harald



---------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: map scales; po-mo; duelling
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 94 18:20:35 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6921

Paul Pofandt writes:
>Can anyone tell me what the correct scales to use are, when
>measuring distances on the map of the continent of Genertela
>included with the Glorantha Boxed set?

He then cites some discrepancies in the scales of published maps.


I don't know what any distances "really" are, but here are some
calculations I made a while back on the width of the Wastelands:

RQ 2 book: 760 km.
Pavis/Big Rubble: 800 km.
Trollpak: 805 km.
RQ 3 Glorantha book: 756 km.
Geography of Glorantha from Wyrms Footnotes 11: 768 km.

Not too inconsistent, next to Paul's 2:1 ratio of highest to
lowest, or the change in the scale in the Trollpak maps from 1
in: 10 miles (16 km.) in the first edition to 1 in: about 8 km.
in the second edition.

I'll probably get a big "eat me" from Sandy for this one.
That'll make up for my arguably sycophantic remark last month.
                          -------------
Sandy says:
>    In essence, I believe that the God Learners were like those
>irritating modern-day scholars who proclaim that all cultures
>have a subjective world-view, including our own (a manifest
>truth), but then go on to proclaim that therefore all cultures
>are equally viable and worthy of respect, and make their people
>equally happy (a manifest untruth).

     Nah.  The God Learners were clearly scientists, of the sort
that gives science a bad name.  Scientists mostly don't believe
in subjective world views, except to the extent that these are
veils which get in the way of capital-T Truth.  Since this isn't
the cultural relativism daily (more like monthly :), I won't go
any further into that morass.

     The God Learners clearly believed that every culture had its
paths of power, but that's very different, as different as
nineteenth century unabashed imperialists, carving out spheres of
influence so as to grab resources, are from the nineteenth
century anthropologists whose work started us down the path
toward cultural relativism.

     And which of those sweeping generalizations is "a manifest
untruth": that all cultures are equally viable, that they are
equally worthy of respect, or that they make their people equally
happy?  Not that it matters--I don't know anyone except the straw
men of Rush Limbaugh's imagination who believes any of them.  The
anthro professors I know, who would seem to fit the first bit of
your category (proclaiming that each culture has a subjective
world view), don't proclaim any of the sweeping generalizations
you make.

     The closest that you could accurately say is that a large
portion of today's scholars see no objective basis for judging a
culture.  If we decide on any criterion (such as making people
happy, GDP, number of nuclear weapons, or nightly broadcast of
"The Simpsons"), we necessarily do so from within our own
culture.

     People who claim objective grounds for saying a culture is
deficient usually have a religious axe to grind; you hardly ever
hear scientists saying something like that, but you often hear,
for example, missionaries.  It'd be hard to be a missionary if
you didn't believe that your target culture needed changing,
wouldn't it?  And it'd be terrible to believe, after having been
a missionary, that there was no possible justification for having
tried to undercut another person's worldview.
                         ---------------
On another topic, has anyone given any thought to Old Pavic
methods of duelling?  It seems to me and James Polk that it would
involve fighting with blunt spears in a hallway, while wearing
heavy masks.  The reason for the spears in the hallway is that
this is good training for fighting trolls.  The spears are blunt
because there aren't enough Squarebeards (meaning Old Pavisites)
around to be able to afford knocking off some.  The heavy masks
are because it's fun until someone gets an eye poked out, and
anyway fit into my Pavic mask idea, which most people seem to
have liked (and those who didn't have uncharacteristically kept
their opinions to themselves).
                         ---------------
Fighting for your right to be unsure about your agnosticism, I
remain,
yours faithfully,
Martin


---------------------

From: [e-mail] (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: Re: Bad Sandy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 94 06:17:34 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6918

Nick Eden
>But where do social constructs come from? I've always thought that
>the reason that we have toboos about sleeping with our sisters is
>that over the years this has been shown to be a bad thing, leading
>to stupid and deformed children.
    It is unclear where this taboo comes from. It is basically
universal among humans (even in cases where it is violated, like the
Pharaohs, it is obviously being violated at least partly to symbolize
the gulf between kings & peasantry). If you believe in an objective
morality, then that's probably where it comes from (i.e., God). I,
personally, am content with this. However, this doesn't mean there
aren't other, potent, evolutionary reasons for this taboo. However,
it clearly is NOT the result of the "fact" that incest kids are
mongoloid, because if this was the case, then many other animals
would have evolved such taboos. It's clearly the result of something
unique to humans. My suggestion is that incest causes psychological
harm to us during our lengthy developmental period. Hence, families
practicing incest tended to die out, because they became
dysfunctional. Exogamous families survived.

    Obviously a rule against incest exists in all Gloranthan
human societies (but perhaps not non-humans). The extent of this rule
of course varies from society to society.

    The Sartarites, embroiled in kinship disputes and
organizations, probably have a very legalistic, carefully figured
incest taboo system. Something like if you have the same last name
you can't marry, but if your last name is different you can only
intermarry if you share no common grandparent.

    The Doraddi, of course, stick to their cumbersome lineage
rules which, on rare occasions, technically do permit the intermarry
of brother and sister. Such a marriage is generally considered
repugnant, but legal, much as it's repugnant but legal to marry your
father's divorced second wife (not your mother).
    Among the Kralori, it is my belief that all marriages must be
approved by the local mandarin (normally a rubber-stamp decision).
Every six years, the mandarin assembles all local people who are over
the age of 24 and not yet married, and pairs them off, marrying them
willy-nilly. "Excess" men are assigned to the army. "Excess" women
must become the mandarin's own concubines (strong encouragement for
the mandarin to seek out husbands for them before the six-year limit
rolls around!).


?? Joerg: what does Uroxe mean? Does it mean Aurochs? Or summat else?

Steven Barnes:
>Suppose a shaman grabs the spirit of a newly-slain human, and
>binds it into his fetch.  What kind of spirit is it?

    C'mon, Steven, gimme a hard one. Answer: 'Tis a ghost -- it
can cast spells, engage in spirit combat, and be bound into a site.


David Cake:
>[can Shamans in Pamalt's cult be acolytes, or not?]
    Hokay, here is my solution. The Pamalt cult has five
categories of membership: Initiate, Shaman, Acolyte, and Chieftain.
So far so good.

    I have instituted a general rule in my campaign that shamans
belonging to cults can ONLY sacrifice for cult special Rune magic,
usually including Worship [my favorite god]. Of course, pseudo-cults
such as Ancestor Worship only _have_ special spells, so are beyond
the pale.

    I move that Shamans of Pamalt be allowed to sacrifice for
Pamalt's special Rune spells only. And that they NOT be acolytes, but
their own category of membership, which is considered equal in status
to acolytehood. Howzat?

Time for a Pamalt Story

Qualyorni, the Cold One, came from the north, bringing her blanket of
ice, and her breath of fog. Artmal, Emperor of Perfection, went to
meet her, and was crippled forever. Who honors Artmal nowadays?
    The people leapt and jumped nervously. "What will we do? No
one can conquer the Cold One!"
    They turned to Lodril. "Oh, grandfather! You saved us from
the Smother Jungle and the Poison Sea! Save us from the Cold One!"
    Lodril peered through his beard. "I am old, so old. And my
mountains will not hold back the Cold One. She thrives in the
heights. But I will try to help." And he made the first spear.

    "Oh, grandfather! Take the spear and strike the Cold One!"
    "Alas, my grandsons and granddaughters. I am old, so old."
    The people scampered like crickets. "What will we do? Who
will use the Spear? Sikkanos, will you use it?"
    Sikkanos looked at the spear with lust in his eyes. He wanted
the spear. But he feared fighting the Cold One more. "Give me the
spear." he said. "I am a good fighter. But I will not fight the Cold
One. Follow me and we will hide in the desolation. We can use the
spear to stay alive. Come, flee with me."
    But the people would not flee. "Jelmre, can you save us?"
    Jelmre was abashed. "I am too small to even pick up the
spear. How can I save us?"
    The people moaned and wailed. "Hoolar, can you save us?"
    Hoolar was sad. "I am no warrior. If you gave me the spear,
the Cold One would beat me just the same, and take the spear away.
Then where would we be?"
    The people asked their old enemy, the Smother Jungle. "Save
us, Smother Jungle! Stop the Cold One."
    But Smother Jungle was asleep and could not answer.

    And finally Pamalt came forward. "Someone MUST fight the Cold
One. I am no warrior. I am afraid of the Cold One. But no one else
will do it. I can pick up the spear, and I will fight."
    Pamalt fought the Cold One, and he was helped by Hoolar and
Jelmre, but Sikkanos ran and hid in the desolation. He did not help.
The spear was so mighty that it struck the Cold One to the ground,
and she could not get up again. Instead, she bled blackness into the
earth and crawled away. "Do not hit me again." she said. "I will stay
in my own country." And Pamalt agreed.


(1)    But then the Cold One's Mother came. And her Grandmother. And
her monster-brother and sister.(2) The night monsters said, "Pamalt,
you have crippled our daughter-sister. Now we will cripple you."
    Pamalt said, "Let us not fight about this. If I did wrong, I
should be punished. If I did well, I should be rewarded."
    The night monsters were puzzled, but agreed to let the
Council of the Gods adjudge Pamalt's deeds (3). They were not afraid
of this, because their grandmother's sister was part of the Council,
and Pamalt had no friends there. (4) The night monsters said, "Pamalt
has crippled our daughter-sister. We demand that he be crippled in
payment."
    Aleshmara spoke for her son-in-law. "The Cold One was evil.
He deserved his punishment."
    The night monsters said, "We are not here to judge the Cold
One, but Pamalt."
    The Council of the Gods agreed. "The Cold One was crippled.
This is true enough. What matter if she was bad? Bring her to trial
if this be true, but do not defend your actions thereby."
    Faranar spoke for her husband. "Pamalt had no choice. He had
to fight the Cold One or all the land would be blasted."
    The night monsters said, "This is not true. The Cold One was
just bringing winter to the land. We all know winter is good."
    The Council of the Gods agreed. "The Cold One would have
changed your land. What of that? All lands are being changed
nowadays."
    Pamalt finally spoke. "I say that the Cold One was right. I
say that the Cold One was justified in all her actions."
    The night monsters muttered among themselves. Then they said,
"That is right. Our daughter-sister was good and true. Now, we demand
vengeance."
    Then Pamalt said, "The Cold One crippled Artmal. Was this
fair?"
    "Yes, yes," said the night monsters.

    So Pamalt said, "I acted just like the Cold One. He crippled
an enemy. And I crippled an enemy. Both of us were fair."
    The Council of the Gods gnashed its teeth, but agreed that
Pamalt was right. The night monsters howled and mourned for their
crippled sister.

    And Pamalt never went to the Council of the Gods again.

(1) This second part of the story is very peculiar. It's hard to
imagine the troll gods agreeing to a formal Doraddi-style trial, in a

potent Doraddi example that might by itself does not make right, even
when gods are fighting for their life.
(2) The Mother is presumably Kyger Litor, and the Grandmother Subere.
the monster-brother and sister are probably Zorak Zoran and Xiola
Umbar.
(3) the Council of the Gods seems to be a rare Doraddi reference to
the Celestial Court.

(4) Presumably the night monsters' "grandmother's sister" was Dame
Darkness, and the fact that Pamalt had no friends there is, to the
Doraddi, evidence that the Council was ultimately useless.