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tuba-minutes-93mar.txt
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1993-04-30
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CURRENT_MEETING_REPORT_
Reported by Mark Knopper/Merit
Minutes of the TCP/UDP over CLNP-addressed Networks Working Group (TUBA)
Agenda
o Implementation Status and Demonstration.
o Document Status.
o Prioritization of TUBA Work.
- Questions asked at Opening Plenary
- Dynamic Host Address Assignment
- Mobile Hosts
- Routing and Addressing Plan
- Transition Strategies
- Discussion of Technical Advantages of CLNP
o Demo and Implementation Targets
Implementation Status and Demonstration
The current status of TUBA implementations is:
cisco: Has telnet and finger initiators and responders, tftp
initiator, and SNMP agent. The effort took a long
weekend, the hardest part being getting the TCP checksum
right. Paul Traina indicated that cisco intends to
modify tftpd to operate over UDP/CLNP as soon as
operating system support is available.
3Com: Has telnet initiator and responder. This work took about
one week.
BSDi: Has telnet and SMTP initiators and responders; currently
a bit buggy. This implementation is the BSDi
distribution with Keith Sklower's modified 4.4 BSD
network code.
NCSA Telnet: Has telnet and finger initiators; ftp responder works
for command connection (support for data connection is a
future work item).
SunOS: Francis Dupont (at INRIA) has grafted the 4.4 BSD
modified network code onto SunOS 4.1.2, and has added
support for UDP over CLNP. No application information was
available (Francis was not at the TUBA Working Group
meeting). Francis has also modified tcpdump to
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understand TUBA; contact Francis.Dupont@inria.fr for
details.
AIX 3.2: IBM ported the 4.4 BSD modified network code to AIX 3.2.
Merit will be testing the port. Yakov Rekhter will
modify ftp for TUBA after Merit completes the kernel
work. It wasn't clear what the status is for other
applications.
The cisco, 3Com, BSDi, and NCSA Telnet implementations were running in
the IETF terminal room. CLNP connectivity was available from the
terminal room via an NSFNET EON encapsulator to other TUBA hosts at:
o cisco via Barrnet
o 3Com via SURANet and COS
o NIST via SURANet
o Merit via the NSFNET
o LANL via ESNet
o NORDUNET and other Sites in Europe
Existing Document Status
o RFC 1347 (the original TUBA proposal): No identified changes.
o ``CLNP for TUBA'' Internet-Draft (draft-ietf-tuba-clnp-02.txt):
Dave Piscitello will polish the pseudoheader checksum calculation
description.
Dino Faranacci suggested that we need to think about MTU discovery.
We might want to use the ER PDU to return the MTU size.
The idea of padding the CLNP header to obtain word alignment for
the TCP header was reopened briefly. It was decided that this had
already been discussed in the past and we would stick to the
conclusion that this is not something that can be guaranteed, given
the number of different subnet services that CLNP operates over.
Given the implementation experience, the Group decided that it
would ask for this document to be moved to Proposed Standard. Dave
Piscitello will take this as an action.
o ``Addressing and End Point Identification, For Use with TUBA''
(draft-ietf-tuba-address-00.ps): Everyone should go back and
(re)read this and send comments to the mailing list.
o ``DNS NSAP RRs'' Internet-Draft (draft-manning-dns-nsap-01.txt):
This Internet-Draft is the successor to RFC 1348. It contains a
better treatment of the inverse mapping for NSAPs than was in 1348,
but this aspect is still subject to change. [Note: Bill Manning
has posted this Internet-Draft already.]
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New Documents
o Catalog of TUBA implementations: We decided that it would be
useful to collect the information about what implementations are
available and who to contact. Mark agreed to take this as an
action.
o CLNP changes from London ISO meeting: There was a document
describing possible changes for CLNP that was distributed in a
recent SC 6 meeting in London. Mark took the action of getting a
copy on-line.
o TUBA Frequently Asked Questions: In keeping with the theme of
needing better organization of the TUBA documentation, Mark
suggested we write a FAQ. Mark will produce a first draft.
o CLNP Multicast work: SC6 is working on multicast extensions for
CLNP and related routing protocols. Radia Perlman said she will
ask Dave Oran to post a summary status of this work on the mailing
list.
Prioritization of TUBA Work
Several questions were asked during the Opening Plenary.
1. What upper layer changes are necessary?
The core applications -- including ftp, smtp, telnet, and dns --
were mentioned. It was decided that we should create a single
document that catalogues what changes, if any, need to be made to
these for TUBA. In most cases, the required changes are minimal.
Mark agreed to take a first cut at this document. Dave Piscitello
agreed to provide the ftp-specific section. Peter Ford, Yakov
Rekhter, and Richard Colella agreed to modify ftp from this
specification.
Keith Sklower mentioned a draft description of a replacement for
gethostbyname that he and Eric Allman had devised. Called
getconninfo, it is more general than gethostbyname, accommodating
address families other than AF_INET. This will make TUBA (and other
IPng proposals) more transparent to the applications. Keith agreed
to post the write up as an Internet-Draft.
2. What is the transition scheme?
Most of this discussion focused on a problem that John Veizades
sees: there is a community of users that do not generally have the
resources necessary to upgrade their small, older routers to
accommodate CLNP to support TUBA (e.g., universities). After some
discussion it became clear that, whereas some thought that this was
not a serious issue, John was not convinced. Dino Faranacci and
John agreed to take this particular issue off-line. In any case,
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it was clear that the TUBA work needs a transition document to
answer just this kind of question. Peter Ford and John Curran
agreed to draft a transition plan.
3. Address assignments -- how do we get them?
This question is fully answered by the NSAP allocation scheme
outlined in RFC 1237, Guidelines for OSI NSAP Allocation in the
Internet, July, 1991. There is already a well-defined method of
obtaining and assigning NSAP addresses. In the U.S., address space
can be obtained from either the US GSA or from ANSI.
4. How does TUBA address mobile hosts?
Deferred due to lack of time.
5. Are there any known boundary conditions?
There were no known boundary conditions involving TUBA.
6. What about Scaling?
In response, reference was made to a seminal paper from 1971 by
Kleinrock and ?.
Stev Knowles asked, ``What if you have one million networks? How
does CLNP and it's routing protocols handle this?'' A lively
discussion ensued; there was not a specific response as it's a
complex question.
It was agreed that the TUBA Working Group should discuss the topics of
scaling and mobile hosts.
Discussion of Technical Advantages of CLNP
Radia Perlman wanted to make the point that we need to recognize the
technical strengths of CLNP. She enumerated three in particular.
1. Autoconfiguration -- By using a unique System ID in the NSAP, it is
relatively easy to do address autoconfiguration. This would
greatly reduce administrative overhead in assigning and changing
addresses, and allow for easier portability of systems.
2. Infinite scaling property -- Given the size and flexibility of NSAP
addresses, address prefix routing provides a large number of
potential levels in the routing hierarchy, assuming that prefixes
are based on nibble boundaries.
3. ``Free'' routing across WANs -- Embedded subnet addressing can be
used to simplify routing in environments that make use of WANs for
interconnection. This entails assigning NSAPs with a WAN-based
subnet address in the high-order part of the NSAP. The WAN-based
part of the subnet address would then be used to perform the
cross-WAN routing hop (e.g., from one routing domain to another,
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both connected to the same WAN). Note that domains not connected to
the same WAN would continue to route using the normal routing
protocols (i.e., ISIS and IDRP).
Dynamic Host Address Assignment
One part of the solution to dynamic host address assignment is ES-IS,
which is reasonably straightforward. Bill Warner agreed to draft text
that describes how ES-IS is used to do dynamic address assignment.
Another part of dynamic host address assignment is how to get the
information into DNS. This is not so obvious. John Curran agreed to
write some text for this.
Routing and Addressing Plan
Ross Callon wrote a routing and addressing Internet-Draft for TUBA in
October. Everyone was assigned to (re)read this and comment (see
Internet-Draft draft-ietf-tuba-address-00.[txt,ps]).
The subject of globally unique EIDs was raised once more. There was
violent agreement that we should do this in the NSAP System ID field.
However, there was some disagreement on the mechanics. Ross suggested
mandating that the System ID field be taken from a single,
globally-coordinated 48-bit number space (*not* synonymous with IEEE MAC
addresses). Keith had a somewhat different idea, allowing variable size
EIDs and, hence, variable sized System IDs. Each proponent was asked to
write a short description of their proposal and post it to the mailing
list. Dave Piscitello agreed to write up Ross's proposal.
Demonstration and Implementation Targets
It was recognized that the TUBA demonstrations could benefit from better
planning and coordination. George Chang agreed to take the lead in this
area.
Summary of Action Items
Dave Piscitello CLNP for TUBA document (update) and submit for
Proposed Standard.
FTP for alternative network layers: Specification.
The implementation will be done by Peter Ford, Yakov
Rekhter and Richard Colella.
EID administration text.
Ross Callon Addressing doc (update), comments needed from Group.
Manning and Colella DNS for NSAPs I-D (RFC 1348 update).
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Mark Knopper Catalog of TUBA implementations.
CLNP changes from London ISO meeting (make document
available).
TUBA Frequently Asked Questions.
Application changes document (what needs to change
for each).
``Cron job'' to update the Group on status weekly.
(This item refers to the offer Mark made to remind
the Group periodically on the status of each action
item and what is left to be done.)
Radia Perlman Status of CLNP Multicast work.
Paul Traina Tftpd - implementation.
Keith Sklower getconninfo Internet-Draft (replacement for
gethostbyname).
Ford and Curran Transition document.
Bill Warner Autoconfig (dynamic host address assignment using
ES-IS), specification.
John Curran NSAP insertion into DNS text. The implementation
will be handled by Dave Piscitello.
George Chang Demo PR and coordination.
Attendees
Philip Almquist almquist@jessica.stanford.edu
Jim Barnes barnes@xylogics.com
Russell Blaesing rrb@one.com
Rebecca Bostwick bostwick@es.net
George Chang gkc@ctt.bellcore.com
John Chang jrc@uswest.com
Enke Chen enke@merit.edu
William Chimiak chim@relito.medeng.wfu.edu
Richard Colella colella@nist.gov
Michael Collins collinsms@es.net
John Curran jcurran@nic.near.net
Dino Farinacci dino@cisco.com
Eric Fleischman ericf@act.boeing.com
Francois Fluckiger fluckiger@vxcern.cern.ch
Peter Ford peter@goshawk.lanl.gov
Vince Fuller vaf@stanford.edu
Peter Furniss p.furniss@ulcc.ac.uk
John Gawf gawf@compatible.com
Eugene Geer ewg@cc.bellcore.com
Tony Hain alh@es.net
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Susan Hares skh@merit.edu
Woody Huang yuh@merit.edu
David Jacobson dnjake@vnet.ibm.com
Laurent Joncheray lpj@merit.edu
Mark Knopper mak@merit.edu
Paul Lustgraaf grpjl@iastate.edu
Carl Madison carl@startek.com
Tracy Mallory tracym@3com.com
Bill Manning bmanning@sesqui.net
Jun Matsukata jm@eng.isas.ac.jp
David Meyer meyer@ns.uoregon.edu
Dennis Morris morrisd@imo-uvax.disa.mil
Matthew Morrisey morrisey@wpsp01.hq.aflc.af.mil
Peder Norgaard pcn@tbit.dk
Laura Pate pate@gateway.mitre.org
Maryann Perez perez@cmf.nrl.navy.mil
Radia Perlman perlman@dsmail.enet.dec.com
David Piscitello dave@mail.bellcore.com
Willi Porten porten@gmd.de
Yakov Rekhter yakov@watson.ibm.com
Ben Robinson ben_robinson@vnet.ibm.com
Yzhak Ronen y.ronen@homxa.att.com
Michael Safly saf@tank1.msfc.nasa.gov
Paul Serice serice@cos.com
Roxanne Streeter streeter@nsipo.arc.nasa.gov
Steve Suzuki suzu@fet.com
Wayne Tackabury wayne@cayman.com
John Tavs tavs@vnet.ibm.com
Kamlesh Tewani ktt@arch2.att.com
Richard Thomas rjthomas@bnr.ca
Paul Traina pst@cisco.com
John Veizades veizades@apple.com
William Warner warner@ohio.gov
Linda Winkler lwinkler@anl.gov
Cathy Wittbrodt cjw@barrnet.net
Charles Young Charles.E.Young@att.com
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